WEBVTT - The Story: Will Nuclear Fusion Save the World? 0:00:15.520 --> 0:00:17.760 Welcome to text stuff. This is the story. I'm as 0:00:17.800 --> 0:00:21.560 Voloscian here with Cara Price. Hi AHAs Hi Cara. So 0:00:22.120 --> 0:00:25.239 this week I wanted to ask a simple but very 0:00:25.280 --> 0:00:29.440 big question, which is can nuclear fusion save the world, 0:00:29.480 --> 0:00:31.480 and if so, on what timeline? 0:00:31.800 --> 0:00:31.880 Is? 0:00:31.920 --> 0:00:34.559 It ridiculous for me to ask what nuclear fusion is. 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:35.879 I genuinely don't know. 0:00:36.440 --> 0:00:39.120 Not at all actually, And it's a little confusing because 0:00:39.120 --> 0:00:41.000 we hear so much about nuclear all the time at 0:00:41.000 --> 0:00:43.720 the moment, especially with the new demands for energy from 0:00:43.720 --> 0:00:46.640 the AI industry. But people are normally talking about nuclear 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:49.400 fission rather than nuclear fusion. But I'm going to let 0:00:49.440 --> 0:00:52.919 Alex Creeley explain this, who works at a company called 0:00:53.040 --> 0:00:54.800 Commonwealth Fusion Systems. 0:00:55.160 --> 0:00:57.960 So, fusion is the process of powers of stars. You 0:00:58.000 --> 0:01:00.720 take small atoms like hydrogen, you can bind them together. 0:01:00.800 --> 0:01:03.200 You make bigger atoms like helium, and that releases like 0:01:03.240 --> 0:01:06.039 a whole bunch of energy. So it's a bunch of 0:01:06.040 --> 0:01:08.959 potential advantages. It's clean, it's firm, so it turns on 0:01:09.000 --> 0:01:11.440 when you want it, not when you don't. And hopefully 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:13.199 if we can make it work in a power plant 0:01:13.280 --> 0:01:16.000 on Earth, it'll change the way the world makes electricity. 0:01:16.280 --> 0:01:18.319 So, as you were saying, like, this is obviously a 0:01:18.360 --> 0:01:23.520 concept that is different than nuclear fission, but I still 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:27.000 can't understand the difference between nuclear fusion and nuclear fission. 0:01:27.400 --> 0:01:29.720 Well, well, let's toss back to Alex for that. 0:01:30.360 --> 0:01:33.040 Fission and fusion are like exact opposite processes. You take 0:01:33.080 --> 0:01:36.119 big atoms like uranium, you split it apart from smaller atoms. 0:01:36.120 --> 0:01:39.720 So fusion's combining fission splitting apart. Oh, that actually makes sense. 0:01:39.760 --> 0:01:42.880 It's actually deceptively simple. You know. Fission, as I mentioned, 0:01:42.959 --> 0:01:45.360 is the process by which today is nuclear power plants 0:01:45.400 --> 0:01:48.520 are powered, and it's a process that we've mastered, essentially 0:01:48.520 --> 0:01:51.720 splitting the atom. Nuclear fusion, on the other hand, works 0:01:51.760 --> 0:01:54.200 in the lab, but it hasn't yet been commercialized. 0:01:54.360 --> 0:01:57.480 So there are people though that think that nuclear fusion 0:01:57.520 --> 0:02:00.640 can save the world, even though we haven't perfected this 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:01.400 process yet. 0:02:01.560 --> 0:02:04.480 Yeah, there've actually been several big breakthroughs in the last 0:02:04.480 --> 0:02:06.840 few years and a glut of funding. I think I 0:02:06.920 --> 0:02:10.880 read that twelve nuclear fusion startups have raised more than 0:02:10.919 --> 0:02:13.480 one hundred million dollars each in the last few years. 0:02:13.520 --> 0:02:14.040 Thank god. 0:02:14.160 --> 0:02:17.440 My other guest today came to this space early before 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:20.079 it was as hot as it is today. Her name 0:02:20.120 --> 0:02:21.640 is Gabriella Hurst. You probably know she is. 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:22.400 I do. 0:02:22.520 --> 0:02:25.680 She's a very interesting fashion designer whose career I followed 0:02:25.720 --> 0:02:26.160 for a while. 0:02:26.200 --> 0:02:28.840 Actually, yes, so. She was the creative director of Chloe. 0:02:29.120 --> 0:02:32.280 She now runs her own brand. She designed Jill Biden's 0:02:32.360 --> 0:02:35.880 inauguration dress. She's one of the most celebrated fashion designers 0:02:35.960 --> 0:02:38.440 in the world. And she made her mission to make 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:42.680 fashion production more sustainable, which is how she got intrigued, 0:02:43.080 --> 0:02:44.920 believe it or not, by nuclear fusion. 0:02:45.360 --> 0:02:47.760 I believe it's around eighty five percent of the world 0:02:47.840 --> 0:02:50.120 is moved with fossil fuels, and I knew these idea 0:02:50.200 --> 0:02:54.720 that we were going to consume less energy was just mistaken. 0:02:55.200 --> 0:02:58.840 And I found this article in the Financial Times and 0:02:58.919 --> 0:03:02.640 something inside me when like this is it like I 0:03:02.639 --> 0:03:05.280 have found a holy grail of sorts. 0:03:05.760 --> 0:03:08.040 Beginning of sentence, I found this article in the Financial 0:03:08.040 --> 0:03:10.639 Times is something I do every other every other time. 0:03:11.680 --> 0:03:14.480 Literally, that's literally how we function. 0:03:15.200 --> 0:03:18.760 So Gabriella became a global ambassador for nuclear fusion. She 0:03:18.800 --> 0:03:22.280 linked up with Alex Creeley at Commonwealth Fusion Systems and 0:03:22.360 --> 0:03:25.600 she used a runway show at Chloe back in twenty 0:03:25.760 --> 0:03:28.679 twenty two with Gigi had died walking to bring the 0:03:28.760 --> 0:03:30.400 world's attention to fusion. 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:33.240 And I could probably argue that we wouldn't be talking 0:03:33.280 --> 0:03:35.920 about nuclear fusion in this way had she not put 0:03:35.960 --> 0:03:36.880 on this fashion show. 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:40.480 Well, she certainly brought the topic out of the academy 0:03:40.920 --> 0:03:44.800 and into the kind of popular cultural conversation before anyone else. 0:03:45.040 --> 0:03:46.880 I mean that said, of course, there's been investment interests 0:03:46.880 --> 0:03:50.000 around this for a long time. Sam Altman became the 0:03:50.120 --> 0:03:53.040 chairman of one of the nuclear fusion startups called Helian, 0:03:53.600 --> 0:03:56.960 back in twenty fifteen. But I think bringing it into 0:03:57.000 --> 0:04:00.600 the mainstream was something that Gabriella really can credit for, 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:03.839 and she and Alex together helped me really dive into 0:04:03.840 --> 0:04:06.800 this question, which is can it save the world, and 0:04:06.880 --> 0:04:13.640 if so, on what timeline? Alex, when will someone like 0:04:13.640 --> 0:04:18.560 Abriella be able to use fusion to manufacture I just. 0:04:18.480 --> 0:04:21.599 Want to say I'm the least of the problem. I 0:04:21.600 --> 0:04:23.520 would say, like, how about. 0:04:23.839 --> 0:04:26.400 About how about Zara. 0:04:26.160 --> 0:04:30.200 Or how about all the AI people want to thing? 0:04:30.360 --> 0:04:33.240 Just know, I'm just like, I'm really not a problem. 0:04:33.200 --> 0:04:34.800 In the scale we want. 0:04:34.880 --> 0:04:37.240 We want to make enough fusion for everyone that's like 0:04:37.279 --> 0:04:37.760 the goal and. 0:04:37.760 --> 0:04:40.800 Went when what is the fundamental challenge of commercializing this 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:44.200 that the idea has been actively invested in since the 0:04:44.279 --> 0:04:47.680 late fifties early sixties. We're seventy years in, but there's 0:04:47.720 --> 0:04:49.919 a new for one of a better word energy, it 0:04:49.960 --> 0:04:50.880 feels like around this. 0:04:51.480 --> 0:04:54.320 So the central challenge of fusion is to get your 0:04:54.520 --> 0:04:57.719 fuel hot and to keep it hot without spending so 0:04:57.800 --> 0:04:59.800 much energy keeping it hot that it's not worth it. 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:02.000 So to do fusion, your fuel needs to be like 0:05:02.080 --> 0:05:04.760 one hundred million degrees one hundred million degrees, one hundred 0:05:04.800 --> 0:05:06.719 million degrees. It's like it's a number that's so large 0:05:06.720 --> 0:05:08.080 it's kind of meaningless. 0:05:07.680 --> 0:05:10.360 Because comparely to the times of the heat of the sun. 0:05:10.640 --> 0:05:12.760 Yeah, it's it's hotter than the core of the sun, 0:05:12.880 --> 0:05:14.280 hotter than the core of the sun. 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:17.040 Yeah, and you can create that heat here on Earth today. 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:19.640 Today, today we can. Yeah. So it sounded like science fiction, 0:05:19.800 --> 0:05:21.279 but like we do it every day. But there's a 0:05:21.279 --> 0:05:22.719 new energy in it now. So people are working for 0:05:22.720 --> 0:05:25.200 this a long time. But the technology you need to 0:05:25.240 --> 0:05:26.839 do that to get the fuel hot and keep it 0:05:26.880 --> 0:05:30.159 hot is all different types of technology. It's like building 0:05:30.200 --> 0:05:33.400 on the just general progress of human civilization over the 0:05:33.440 --> 0:05:36.080 last seventy years. We now have new types of magnets, 0:05:36.120 --> 0:05:39.760 new types of lasers, new materials, new computational ability to 0:05:39.839 --> 0:05:42.440 optimize stuff, and all of that has kind of gotten 0:05:42.480 --> 0:05:44.000 us to the point where we're ready to take what 0:05:44.080 --> 0:05:46.840 was a science experiment which is really cool or really 0:05:46.839 --> 0:05:49.800 hot maybe and turn that into a power plant. So 0:05:49.960 --> 0:05:52.040 it's coming soon. There's a lot of companies working on it. 0:05:52.080 --> 0:05:53.680 I think a lot of us are target targeting early 0:05:53.720 --> 0:05:55.680 twenty thirties, so not too long from now. 0:05:55.800 --> 0:05:58.000 Gabrielle, when you first got interested in this in twenty 0:05:58.040 --> 0:06:00.360 twenty one, was that some kind of breakthrough that made 0:06:00.360 --> 0:06:02.840 it more relevant or what was the was the moment then? 0:06:03.360 --> 0:06:08.080 I think it was reading how much the private sector 0:06:08.160 --> 0:06:10.880 had like Gearrope in recent years, because before it was 0:06:10.920 --> 0:06:14.799 only publicly funded and it was a Cold War race, 0:06:14.839 --> 0:06:17.440 and he had a momentum, right, and then it kind 0:06:17.480 --> 0:06:20.080 of I think it was around the nineties where it 0:06:20.240 --> 0:06:22.800 slowed down. Of it the momentum of the evolution of 0:06:22.880 --> 0:06:27.800 fusion energy, and it was that understanding of the private 0:06:27.880 --> 0:06:33.280 sector investing and that big players were getting involved and 0:06:33.400 --> 0:06:35.880 the good the button, the ugly were getting involved, and 0:06:35.920 --> 0:06:39.080 so I was like, Okay, there's something here, and I 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:43.360 did the research, meaning I used it as a research 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:49.400 for my collection, which you can imagine telling a French 0:06:49.839 --> 0:06:52.960 Meissan studio saying well, this season, we're going to study 0:06:53.000 --> 0:06:55.719 fusion and we're going to be set a few private 0:06:55.800 --> 0:06:58.480 sector and a few public sector. 0:06:58.200 --> 0:07:02.080 And they weren't be like what is she on? 0:07:02.760 --> 0:07:05.200 And that we did and it was it was amazing 0:07:05.279 --> 0:07:08.920 how the teams interpreted everything, Like we really did prints 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:11.960 of like isotopes and like you know the Runway show, 0:07:12.000 --> 0:07:15.560 we use a master of lights that was all the circles. 0:07:15.120 --> 0:07:15.840 Of a tacomac. 0:07:16.200 --> 0:07:20.280 But it was really that spark of like, oh this 0:07:20.360 --> 0:07:22.000 is getting caught not found intended. 0:07:22.480 --> 0:07:23.520 And what is a token mac? 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:26.960 Yeah, so tokmac is like the type of fusion machine 0:07:26.960 --> 0:07:28.880 that we build. There's like a whole zoo of types 0:07:28.920 --> 0:07:31.960 of fusion machines. The donut and you make it out 0:07:32.000 --> 0:07:34.200 of magnets. So I think the tokmak. The word is 0:07:34.240 --> 0:07:37.640 a contraction of like toital magnetic chamber. Toidal is just 0:07:37.680 --> 0:07:40.160 like the math word for donut shaped, So donut shape 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:43.520 magnetic chamber. And we're we're building like that type of fusion. 0:07:43.280 --> 0:07:45.680 Machine and that will live inside the power plant exactly. 0:07:45.800 --> 0:07:47.640 Yep. That's the heart of the power plant. So we 0:07:47.760 --> 0:07:50.840 use these magnets. We make a donut shaped star and 0:07:50.880 --> 0:07:53.560 then the star makes the energy and then we extract 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:56.160 that and boil water and make steamage like. 0:07:56.120 --> 0:07:59.119 A steam engine, just that it's powered by instead of coal, 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:01.280 it's by fusion. 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:03.640 Yeah. Humanity has gotten very good at boiling water over 0:08:03.680 --> 0:08:06.600 the last couple hundred years, and we still do that. Actually, 0:08:06.800 --> 0:08:08.720 even for fusion, we just come up with very clever 0:08:08.760 --> 0:08:09.600 ways to boil the water. 0:08:09.640 --> 0:08:11.640 This is about generating heat to boil water. That's what 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:12.280 it comes down to. 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:16.520 Yes, yep, Yes, surprisingly a lot of thinking into that. 0:08:16.800 --> 0:08:20.160 Yeah, you talked about this kind of moment where a 0:08:20.200 --> 0:08:22.800 whole bunch of public investment that was kind of latent 0:08:23.600 --> 0:08:28.120 exploded into privatization. That's something most people are very familiar 0:08:28.160 --> 0:08:31.640 with when it comes to AI, the fundamental dapper research 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:34.320 that in the last few years has kind of exploded 0:08:34.360 --> 0:08:38.520 into a very immediate consumer product. Space is another example, right, 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:41.400 SpaceX and Blue Origin others building on the kind of 0:08:41.520 --> 0:08:45.360 NASA and Soviet rocket tree platform technology to privatize space. 0:08:45.400 --> 0:08:48.000 But where does fusion sit within this kind of public 0:08:48.080 --> 0:08:49.080 to private paradigm. 0:08:49.200 --> 0:08:52.280 It's a similar idea where there's like foundational research that's 0:08:52.280 --> 0:08:55.360 happened all around the world since the fifties, and there's 0:08:55.559 --> 0:08:58.280 just a lot of understanding of the science that we've 0:08:58.320 --> 0:09:00.960 developed and a lot of like adjacent technolog that we've developed, 0:09:01.400 --> 0:09:04.120 and it doesn't seem like it's going very fast until 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:06.640 like it hits a tipping point where a bunch of 0:09:06.640 --> 0:09:09.040 commercial entities like investors and stuff come in and they 0:09:09.040 --> 0:09:11.800 look at it and like this looks really close, Like 0:09:12.280 --> 0:09:13.839 it doesn't look close, and all of a sudden it 0:09:13.880 --> 0:09:15.560 kind of passes a tipping point where it looks like 0:09:16.200 --> 0:09:17.559 we're going to invest in this, and like we think 0:09:17.600 --> 0:09:19.880 this is a real short term thing that we can 0:09:19.920 --> 0:09:22.600 commercialize and deploy all of the world. And what commercial 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:24.720 entities are good at is scaling, so like not just 0:09:24.720 --> 0:09:27.000 build one, build like thousands, which is what you need 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:27.480 for power. 0:09:28.120 --> 0:09:31.360 But I also I would say that what is different 0:09:31.559 --> 0:09:35.960 from is a very focus on much more grounded It's 0:09:35.960 --> 0:09:39.280 not like a wild West goal rush like AI where 0:09:39.320 --> 0:09:43.440 people are like in pre idea stage getting funded. It's 0:09:43.520 --> 0:09:47.880 really grounded in deep science in the fact that we 0:09:47.920 --> 0:09:51.800 are here because fusion exists. We are a product of fusion. 0:09:51.880 --> 0:09:55.640 So it's really harnessing the energy. So there's a much 0:09:55.720 --> 0:09:58.480 more holy aspect to it. 0:09:58.559 --> 0:09:59.959 But you use the phrase holy grail. 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:02.760 Yeah, but it's really even if you look at the 0:10:02.840 --> 0:10:05.320 poetry of the line that he said, or it's just 0:10:05.559 --> 0:10:08.800 so simple, but it's the truth. But fission you have 0:10:08.920 --> 0:10:12.160 to break, and for fusion, you have to fuse, right, 0:10:12.400 --> 0:10:14.240 And I think what we need is a lot of 0:10:14.280 --> 0:10:17.040 fusion in this world instead of breaking apart. So I 0:10:17.120 --> 0:10:21.320 think there's something that I find very spiritual in the 0:10:21.400 --> 0:10:23.880 science of all of it that's really interesting. Yeah. 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:25.400 I think it's one of the things we thought about too, 0:10:25.480 --> 0:10:28.120 is like fusion powers the universe, Like the universe has 0:10:28.160 --> 0:10:30.760 already chosen fusion as like the main way to make energy, 0:10:31.200 --> 0:10:34.120 and so like it seems like a good choice that 0:10:34.280 --> 0:10:36.960 human civilization should eventually get to that same choice. 0:10:37.160 --> 0:10:38.319 It's proven, Is it proven? 0:10:38.559 --> 0:10:40.040 Yes, it's a brun model. 0:10:40.800 --> 0:10:42.959 We like to talk about podcasts as the theater of 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:46.920 the mind. Garyell, what's it like as an outsider, like 0:10:47.080 --> 0:10:50.959 talk about the process of translating this through fashion from 0:10:51.000 --> 0:10:53.480 mass audience. I mean, you had obviously a huge platform. 0:10:53.480 --> 0:10:55.600 I think you had Gigi had Deed walk in that show. 0:10:56.320 --> 0:10:59.760 Alex, a lot of models in our Big Models, Alex Costanini. 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:02.360 There's a yeah, what you're trying to achieve and did 0:11:02.360 --> 0:11:03.360 you do it? Well? 0:11:03.760 --> 0:11:07.480 What I tried to achieve was I think information is 0:11:07.559 --> 0:11:11.079 very siloed. So the science community, the fusion community all 0:11:11.120 --> 0:11:13.920 know what's going on and the updates, and the fashion 0:11:14.320 --> 0:11:17.280 community all know their own things, and it's all very 0:11:17.320 --> 0:11:20.640 silo or information. And if I just get a few 0:11:20.640 --> 0:11:23.280 more people to know about it, just did you need 0:11:23.320 --> 0:11:25.760 that public support in a way? So I think I 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:28.160 got like at least ten more people to know about it. 0:11:28.520 --> 0:11:31.040 Maybe a few more solid And I think on our side, 0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:33.920 it's like that is so important because like we're working 0:11:33.920 --> 0:11:36.640 to get the technology to work, but that is not 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:40.880 sufficient to really achieve like the longer energy mission of fusion. 0:11:40.920 --> 0:11:44.160 It's like you need a world who understands fusion and 0:11:44.320 --> 0:11:46.040 is excited about it and like wants to bring it 0:11:46.080 --> 0:11:48.760 all forward. Like you need politicians involved, you need like 0:11:48.880 --> 0:11:52.000 heavy industry, you need like financing, you need public policy, 0:11:52.040 --> 0:11:54.840 you need all of these pieces together, and like the 0:11:54.840 --> 0:11:57.720 only way you educate that much larger group of people 0:11:57.760 --> 0:12:00.120 is to have a much wider platform, and like all 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:03.439 the work the gabrielity is critical to that wider platform. 0:12:03.080 --> 0:12:04.520 And it kind of paid off. I guess would you 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:05.959 feel the need to do that again or do you 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:07.640 think like mission accomplished. 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:09.040 In terms of no, no, no, till fusion is in 0:12:09.080 --> 0:12:10.719 the grid, the mission is not accomplished. 0:12:11.200 --> 0:12:14.480 Until fusion is in the grid, the mission is unaccomplished. 0:12:14.640 --> 0:12:15.920 Yeah, I think we're clear now. 0:12:16.000 --> 0:12:16.880 I agree. 0:12:17.120 --> 0:12:19.440 We did get an article in Vanity Fair. 0:12:19.960 --> 0:12:24.400 So I think it's about telling these great news because 0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:28.080 it's great news. There's like brilliant people like my friend 0:12:28.120 --> 0:12:31.040 Alex doing this work in the world, and they could 0:12:31.080 --> 0:12:33.720 have used that brilliance for something else and using it 0:12:33.760 --> 0:12:36.640 to save our buds. And it's a very holistic approach. 0:12:36.720 --> 0:12:40.040 Is like its whoever wins the race's good for. 0:12:40.000 --> 0:12:40.520 All of us. 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:42.880 So I read it. I read a piece this morning 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:46.160 actually which said that around a dozen nuclear fusion startups 0:12:46.200 --> 0:12:48.240 in the US have raised more than one hundred million 0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:51.640 dollars in recent years. One of those, of course, is 0:12:52.000 --> 0:12:56.480 Commonwealth Fusion Systems. Gabriella, you studied the whole ecosystem. I 0:12:56.480 --> 0:12:58.720 think you met a lot of the companies, Why Commonwealth 0:12:58.760 --> 0:13:01.559 and why Alex in terms of one of the companies 0:13:01.600 --> 0:13:05.720 that you want to make a special effort to showcase they. 0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:09.640 Are transparency their commitment to the timeline. And I don't 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:12.400 think we ever spoke about this meeting a lot of 0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:15.640 the members. I never met somebody with a big ego. 0:13:16.320 --> 0:13:20.840 I met very dedicated people that were extremely committed to 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:23.800 this vision and this passion and all rooted for like, 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:28.640 oh shit, we have a big problem. Our humanity is 0:13:28.720 --> 0:13:30.839 facing a big problem, and we're going to commit our 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:35.600 life to this. And so it was really the people 0:13:35.960 --> 0:13:39.520 that made me think common World fushould and they're really 0:13:40.360 --> 0:13:42.480 going at it in the timeline. 0:13:42.480 --> 0:13:45.400 I think you guys are like what on timeline or not? 0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:46.959 Something too not too oft. 0:13:47.160 --> 0:13:49.480 We're moving fast. We always want to be faster, but 0:13:49.520 --> 0:13:50.200 we're moving fast. 0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:53.560 I'm moving fast towards what are you doing? What does 0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:56.120 it mean to be the director of the Tokomac operations? 0:13:56.200 --> 0:13:57.560 Like just break it down for us in a very 0:13:57.880 --> 0:13:58.400 simple way. 0:13:58.520 --> 0:13:58.720 Sure. 0:13:58.760 --> 0:14:00.480 Sure, So I end up with two jobs right now. 0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:03.040 We're a startup, so you know, with more jobs than 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:05.000 you like. One of my jobs is the director of 0:14:05.040 --> 0:14:08.960 Tokmac Operations. So right now we're building a demonstration plant 0:14:09.120 --> 0:14:11.600 just outside of Boston. It's not yet a full power plant, 0:14:11.640 --> 0:14:13.959 but it shows that all the stuff works, and so 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:16.959 I am managing the operations team for that, like, once 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:19.040 we finished building it, how do you turn it on? 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:20.880 Like which buttons do you push? And like hopefully don't 0:14:20.880 --> 0:14:23.400 break it. And actually the process of transitioning that job 0:14:23.440 --> 0:14:24.800 to some other people because we've like kind of trained 0:14:24.840 --> 0:14:26.880 up a great team. So I'm transitioning now to be 0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:29.760 the chief engineer for ARC Design. And so ARC is 0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:32.680 our power plant that'll be in Virginia. We're starting the 0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:35.640 design process for that and so today most of my 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:37.200 time is focused on the power plant design. 0:14:37.400 --> 0:14:40.800 So basically, this is what's so brilliant about them is 0:14:40.880 --> 0:14:44.240 that they're doing both the demo and the commercial at 0:14:44.280 --> 0:14:44.880 the same time. 0:14:45.080 --> 0:14:46.240 It's not like a linear thing. 0:14:46.320 --> 0:14:47.600 It's like, oh, well, first we are going to do 0:14:47.680 --> 0:14:49.280 the demo and then we're going to do the commercial 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:51.760 plan we don't have that time, so they're doing both. 0:14:52.000 --> 0:14:53.520 Yeah, and it's like the first one is sparked the 0:14:53.560 --> 0:14:56.200 one we're building now. It like proves out all the technology. 0:14:56.320 --> 0:14:58.640 It like proves out that we as an organization can 0:14:58.720 --> 0:15:00.720 figure out how to build stuff, and then we take 0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:02.680 all of that experience, all that learning, and we bring 0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:05.320 it to the real commercial power plant which sits on 0:15:05.360 --> 0:15:08.040 the grid makes electricity. You know, it looks like a 0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:09.840 coal power plant, but without the coal part. 0:15:16.880 --> 0:15:20.240 Off the break Why wind and solar energy aren't enough 0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:24.320 and how AI demand plays into everything, Stay with us. 0:15:38.200 --> 0:15:41.120 Samultman is involved with one of the nuclear fusion companies 0:15:41.160 --> 0:15:44.280 called is it Helion or Helios Helion, Heleon, and they've 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:48.640 promised commercial deployment and to provide power to Microsoft by 0:15:48.720 --> 0:15:52.160 twenty twenty eight. Yeah, is that credible? And what's your timeline? 0:15:52.560 --> 0:15:52.760 Yeah? 0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:55.120 So our timeline is the early twenty thirties, and I 0:15:55.200 --> 0:15:59.280 think we try to avoid very specific numbers until we're 0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:01.840 fairly confident we can actually deliver on those. So early 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:04.360 twenty thirties. Our first plant will be in Virginia, and 0:16:04.440 --> 0:16:06.880 we've actually also signed they're called a power purchase agreement. 0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:09.360 Basically someone signed up to buy your electricity. We've signed 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:11.480 one with Google and one with any which is an 0:16:11.520 --> 0:16:14.680 Italian energy company. They'll both buy electricity from the same 0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:17.440 plant in Virginia. There's other companies working on this helion 0:16:17.520 --> 0:16:19.880 as one of them. I think different companies have slightly 0:16:19.880 --> 0:16:22.360 different philosophies of like how ambitious to be with their timelines. 0:16:22.800 --> 0:16:26.360 We think our timelines are like very ambitious, but also realistic. 0:16:26.560 --> 0:16:30.080 I think maybe there's some skepticism as to how realistic 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:32.720 other people's timelines are. But at some level it's good 0:16:32.840 --> 0:16:36.480 to be ambitious, like going fast is good, as Gaby 0:16:36.520 --> 0:16:39.520 said earlier, like anyone gets fusion working, that's good for 0:16:39.600 --> 0:16:42.840 the world, Like that's good for humanity. And so we're 0:16:42.880 --> 0:16:45.320 rooting for these other companies. It's a friendly rivalry. We 0:16:45.440 --> 0:16:47.960 are working toward our timelines. We think our times are realistic, 0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:49.840 and other people they have their own technology, they have 0:16:49.880 --> 0:16:51.160 their own timelines that they're working toward. 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:53.680 So I mean, you very clearly articulated the mission, which 0:16:53.720 --> 0:16:56.880 is getting energy onto the grid. That's the clearest articulation 0:16:56.960 --> 0:16:58.960 of the mission that I've I've heard talk about what 0:16:59.080 --> 0:17:01.280 does it mean to get the energy onto the grid? 0:17:01.320 --> 0:17:02.240 And why is that the mission? 0:17:02.400 --> 0:17:06.119 Because we are in this path and it really is 0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:09.399 about the burning of fossil fuels. We can go on 0:17:09.680 --> 0:17:11.919 and on about the many things, but it's the burning 0:17:11.960 --> 0:17:14.560 of fossil fuels, which if you look at it in abstraction, 0:17:15.400 --> 0:17:19.040 is a really bad idea, right, but it produces energy. 0:17:19.240 --> 0:17:23.600 It's like we're taking dead fossils, taking it out of 0:17:23.680 --> 0:17:27.600 the earth, burning it, shooting it to the atmosphere. It's 0:17:27.680 --> 0:17:31.160 just like the process is so polluting, it's like burning death. 0:17:31.440 --> 0:17:33.320 Like I don't want to be too dramatic, but literally, 0:17:33.920 --> 0:17:36.840 And so it is the burning of fossil fuels that 0:17:36.960 --> 0:17:42.480 has to stop. And it's not raining in the Amazons. 0:17:42.840 --> 0:17:44.440 I don't want to ruin your day, but it's not 0:17:44.600 --> 0:17:47.760 raining in the Amazons. It's like we are in a 0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:51.560 really pivotal point where all the dreams that we had 0:17:51.600 --> 0:17:54.480 to control the temperature that's done. That doesn't mean we're 0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:57.119 still not going to need fusion. So as soon as 0:17:57.200 --> 0:18:01.439 we can get the burning of fossil fuels with whatever 0:18:01.560 --> 0:18:04.080 technology that has the scale, because we know that wind 0:18:04.440 --> 0:18:07.760 and solar don't have the scale to take this, and. 0:18:07.760 --> 0:18:10.879 They also harder to integrate onto the grid because their fluctuations. 0:18:10.480 --> 0:18:12.320 Right yeah, and wind and solar are great, they're great, 0:18:12.320 --> 0:18:14.080 we should do more of it, but they have their challenges. 0:18:14.520 --> 0:18:17.040 And it's like, especially in areas that they have fluctuations 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:19.800 that aren't well suited, Like places are cloudy all the time, 0:18:19.840 --> 0:18:22.040 probably you shouldn't install a bunch of solar. And then 0:18:22.160 --> 0:18:24.800 especially in like big population centers, so like we're in 0:18:24.800 --> 0:18:27.320 New York City, it's really hard to power all of 0:18:27.359 --> 0:18:29.119 New York City with wind and solar. You just need 0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:32.800 so much land and then all the transmission of getting 0:18:32.840 --> 0:18:34.720 the electricity from wherever you made it to where you 0:18:34.800 --> 0:18:38.440 need it. That big cities are much better suited to 0:18:38.560 --> 0:18:41.440 like a box that makes electricity, yeah, rather than like 0:18:41.800 --> 0:18:44.760 like collecting it out of the environment. That's where fusion 0:18:44.800 --> 0:18:47.240 strong point is is like it is big population centers, 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:50.119 it is areas that are really energy intensive, and then 0:18:50.160 --> 0:18:52.320 it helps smooth out all the challenges of wind and 0:18:52.359 --> 0:18:53.880 solar that are on and off and on and off. 0:18:54.160 --> 0:18:57.320 You can do energy storage, but that adds up pretty 0:18:57.359 --> 0:19:00.119 quickly as well as being challenging, especially when you if 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:01.680 you're so much wind but then it's not windy for 0:19:01.720 --> 0:19:03.920 a week. You know, a lot of energy storage, but 0:19:04.040 --> 0:19:06.200 fusion allows you to like smooth all that out with stuff. 0:19:06.280 --> 0:19:07.800 We call it firm, but it's like on when you 0:19:07.880 --> 0:19:09.840 need it, off when you don't energy. 0:19:09.920 --> 0:19:13.560