1 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:17,760 Speaker 1: Welcome to text stuff. This is the story. I'm as 2 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: Voloscian here with Cara Price. Hi AHAs Hi Cara. So 3 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 1: this week I wanted to ask a simple but very 4 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 1: big question, which is can nuclear fusion save the world, 5 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:31,480 Speaker 1: and if so, on what timeline? 6 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 2: Is? 7 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:34,559 Speaker 3: It ridiculous for me to ask what nuclear fusion is. 8 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:35,879 Speaker 3: I genuinely don't know. 9 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: Not at all actually, And it's a little confusing because 10 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: we hear so much about nuclear all the time at 11 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: the moment, especially with the new demands for energy from 12 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 1: the AI industry. But people are normally talking about nuclear 13 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 1: fission rather than nuclear fusion. But I'm going to let 14 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:52,919 Speaker 1: Alex Creeley explain this, who works at a company called 15 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: Commonwealth Fusion Systems. 16 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 4: So, fusion is the process of powers of stars. You 17 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 4: take small atoms like hydrogen, you can bind them together. 18 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 4: You make bigger atoms like helium, and that releases like 19 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,039 Speaker 4: a whole bunch of energy. So it's a bunch of 20 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:08,959 Speaker 4: potential advantages. It's clean, it's firm, so it turns on 21 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 4: when you want it, not when you don't. And hopefully 22 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:13,199 Speaker 4: if we can make it work in a power plant 23 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 4: on Earth, it'll change the way the world makes electricity. 24 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:18,319 Speaker 3: So, as you were saying, like, this is obviously a 25 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 3: concept that is different than nuclear fission, but I still 26 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 3: can't understand the difference between nuclear fusion and nuclear fission. 27 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: Well, well, let's toss back to Alex for that. 28 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:33,040 Speaker 4: Fission and fusion are like exact opposite processes. You take 29 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:36,119 Speaker 4: big atoms like uranium, you split it apart from smaller atoms. 30 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 4: So fusion's combining fission splitting apart. Oh, that actually makes sense. 31 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 1: It's actually deceptively simple. You know. Fission, as I mentioned, 32 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: is the process by which today is nuclear power plants 33 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: are powered, and it's a process that we've mastered, essentially 34 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 1: splitting the atom. Nuclear fusion, on the other hand, works 35 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 1: in the lab, but it hasn't yet been commercialized. 36 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 3: So there are people though that think that nuclear fusion 37 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 3: can save the world, even though we haven't perfected this 38 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 3: process yet. 39 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:04,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, there've actually been several big breakthroughs in the last 40 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 1: few years and a glut of funding. I think I 41 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 1: read that twelve nuclear fusion startups have raised more than 42 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: one hundred million dollars each in the last few years. 43 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 4: Thank god. 44 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 1: My other guest today came to this space early before 45 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:20,079 Speaker 1: it was as hot as it is today. Her name 46 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:21,640 Speaker 1: is Gabriella Hurst. You probably know she is. 47 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 4: I do. 48 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 3: She's a very interesting fashion designer whose career I followed 49 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 3: for a while. 50 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 1: Actually, yes, so. She was the creative director of Chloe. 51 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 1: She now runs her own brand. She designed Jill Biden's 52 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 1: inauguration dress. She's one of the most celebrated fashion designers 53 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 1: in the world. And she made her mission to make 54 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 1: fashion production more sustainable, which is how she got intrigued, 55 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:44,920 Speaker 1: believe it or not, by nuclear fusion. 56 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 2: I believe it's around eighty five percent of the world 57 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 2: is moved with fossil fuels, and I knew these idea 58 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 2: that we were going to consume less energy was just mistaken. 59 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 2: And I found this article in the Financial Times and 60 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:02,640 Speaker 2: something inside me when like this is it like I 61 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 2: have found a holy grail of sorts. 62 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 1: Beginning of sentence, I found this article in the Financial 63 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:10,639 Speaker 1: Times is something I do every other every other time. 64 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 3: Literally, that's literally how we function. 65 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: So Gabriella became a global ambassador for nuclear fusion. She 66 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: linked up with Alex Creeley at Commonwealth Fusion Systems and 67 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 1: she used a runway show at Chloe back in twenty 68 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:28,679 Speaker 1: twenty two with Gigi had died walking to bring the 69 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 1: world's attention to fusion. 70 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 3: And I could probably argue that we wouldn't be talking 71 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 3: about nuclear fusion in this way had she not put 72 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 3: on this fashion show. 73 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 1: Well, she certainly brought the topic out of the academy 74 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 1: and into the kind of popular cultural conversation before anyone else. 75 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 1: I mean that said, of course, there's been investment interests 76 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 1: around this for a long time. Sam Altman became the 77 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 1: chairman of one of the nuclear fusion startups called Helian, 78 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 1: back in twenty fifteen. But I think bringing it into 79 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 1: the mainstream was something that Gabriella really can credit for, 80 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,839 Speaker 1: and she and Alex together helped me really dive into 81 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: this question, which is can it save the world, and 82 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 1: if so, on what timeline? Alex, when will someone like 83 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 1: Abriella be able to use fusion to manufacture I just. 84 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:21,599 Speaker 2: Want to say I'm the least of the problem. I 85 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 2: would say, like, how about. 86 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 1: About how about Zara. 87 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 2: Or how about all the AI people want to thing? 88 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 2: Just know, I'm just like, I'm really not a problem. 89 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 5: In the scale we want. 90 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 4: We want to make enough fusion for everyone that's like 91 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 4: the goal and. 92 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 1: Went when what is the fundamental challenge of commercializing this 93 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 1: that the idea has been actively invested in since the 94 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 1: late fifties early sixties. We're seventy years in, but there's 95 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:49,919 Speaker 1: a new for one of a better word energy, it 96 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 1: feels like around this. 97 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 4: So the central challenge of fusion is to get your 98 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:57,719 Speaker 4: fuel hot and to keep it hot without spending so 99 00:04:57,800 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 4: much energy keeping it hot that it's not worth it. 100 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 4: So to do fusion, your fuel needs to be like 101 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 4: one hundred million degrees one hundred million degrees, one hundred 102 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:06,719 Speaker 4: million degrees. It's like it's a number that's so large 103 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 4: it's kind of meaningless. 104 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:10,360 Speaker 5: Because comparely to the times of the heat of the sun. 105 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's hotter than the core of the sun, 106 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:14,280 Speaker 4: hotter than the core of the sun. 107 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:17,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you can create that heat here on Earth today. 108 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 4: Today, today we can. Yeah. So it sounded like science fiction, 109 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:21,279 Speaker 4: but like we do it every day. But there's a 110 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:22,719 Speaker 4: new energy in it now. So people are working for 111 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 4: this a long time. But the technology you need to 112 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:26,839 Speaker 4: do that to get the fuel hot and keep it 113 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:30,159 Speaker 4: hot is all different types of technology. It's like building 114 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 4: on the just general progress of human civilization over the 115 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 4: last seventy years. We now have new types of magnets, 116 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 4: new types of lasers, new materials, new computational ability to 117 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 4: optimize stuff, and all of that has kind of gotten 118 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 4: us to the point where we're ready to take what 119 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:46,840 Speaker 4: was a science experiment which is really cool or really 120 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 4: hot maybe and turn that into a power plant. So 121 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:52,040 Speaker 4: it's coming soon. There's a lot of companies working on it. 122 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 4: I think a lot of us are target targeting early 123 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 4: twenty thirties, so not too long from now. 124 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 1: Gabrielle, when you first got interested in this in twenty 125 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:00,360 Speaker 1: twenty one, was that some kind of breakthrough that made 126 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:02,840 Speaker 1: it more relevant or what was the was the moment then? 127 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 2: I think it was reading how much the private sector 128 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 2: had like Gearrope in recent years, because before it was 129 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:14,799 Speaker 2: only publicly funded and it was a Cold War race, 130 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 2: and he had a momentum, right, and then it kind 131 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 2: of I think it was around the nineties where it 132 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 2: slowed down. Of it the momentum of the evolution of 133 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 2: fusion energy, and it was that understanding of the private 134 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:33,280 Speaker 2: sector investing and that big players were getting involved and 135 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 2: the good the button, the ugly were getting involved, and 136 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 2: so I was like, Okay, there's something here, and I 137 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 2: did the research, meaning I used it as a research 138 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 2: for my collection, which you can imagine telling a French 139 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 2: Meissan studio saying well, this season, we're going to study 140 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:55,719 Speaker 2: fusion and we're going to be set a few private 141 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:58,480 Speaker 2: sector and a few public sector. 142 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 5: And they weren't be like what is she on? 143 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 2: And that we did and it was it was amazing 144 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 2: how the teams interpreted everything, Like we really did prints 145 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 2: of like isotopes and like you know the Runway show, 146 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 2: we use a master of lights that was all the circles. 147 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 5: Of a tacomac. 148 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 2: But it was really that spark of like, oh this 149 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 2: is getting caught not found intended. 150 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 1: And what is a token mac? 151 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, so tokmac is like the type of fusion machine 152 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 4: that we build. There's like a whole zoo of types 153 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 4: of fusion machines. The donut and you make it out 154 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 4: of magnets. So I think the tokmak. The word is 155 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 4: a contraction of like toital magnetic chamber. Toidal is just 156 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 4: like the math word for donut shaped, So donut shape 157 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 4: magnetic chamber. And we're we're building like that type of fusion. 158 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 1: Machine and that will live inside the power plant exactly. 159 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 4: Yep. That's the heart of the power plant. So we 160 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 4: use these magnets. We make a donut shaped star and 161 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 4: then the star makes the energy and then we extract 162 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 4: that and boil water and make steamage like. 163 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:59,119 Speaker 2: A steam engine, just that it's powered by instead of coal, 164 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 2: it's by fusion. 165 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 4: Yeah. Humanity has gotten very good at boiling water over 166 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 4: the last couple hundred years, and we still do that. Actually, 167 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 4: even for fusion, we just come up with very clever 168 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 4: ways to boil the water. 169 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 1: This is about generating heat to boil water. That's what 170 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 1: it comes down to. 171 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 5: Yes, yep, Yes, surprisingly a lot of thinking into that. 172 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, you talked about this kind of moment where a 173 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 1: whole bunch of public investment that was kind of latent 174 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 1: exploded into privatization. That's something most people are very familiar 175 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: with when it comes to AI, the fundamental dapper research 176 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:34,320 Speaker 1: that in the last few years has kind of exploded 177 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 1: into a very immediate consumer product. Space is another example, right, 178 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 1: SpaceX and Blue Origin others building on the kind of 179 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 1: NASA and Soviet rocket tree platform technology to privatize space. 180 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 1: But where does fusion sit within this kind of public 181 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:49,080 Speaker 1: to private paradigm. 182 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 4: It's a similar idea where there's like foundational research that's 183 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 4: happened all around the world since the fifties, and there's 184 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 4: just a lot of understanding of the science that we've 185 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 4: developed and a lot of like adjacent technolog that we've developed, 186 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 4: and it doesn't seem like it's going very fast until 187 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 4: like it hits a tipping point where a bunch of 188 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 4: commercial entities like investors and stuff come in and they 189 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 4: look at it and like this looks really close, Like 190 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:13,839 Speaker 4: it doesn't look close, and all of a sudden it 191 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 4: kind of passes a tipping point where it looks like 192 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:17,559 Speaker 4: we're going to invest in this, and like we think 193 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 4: this is a real short term thing that we can 194 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 4: commercialize and deploy all of the world. And what commercial 195 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:24,720 Speaker 4: entities are good at is scaling, so like not just 196 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 4: build one, build like thousands, which is what you need 197 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 4: for power. 198 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 2: But I also I would say that what is different 199 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 2: from is a very focus on much more grounded It's 200 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 2: not like a wild West goal rush like AI where 201 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:43,440 Speaker 2: people are like in pre idea stage getting funded. It's 202 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 2: really grounded in deep science in the fact that we 203 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 2: are here because fusion exists. We are a product of fusion. 204 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 2: So it's really harnessing the energy. So there's a much 205 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 2: more holy aspect to it. 206 00:09:58,559 --> 00:09:59,959 Speaker 1: But you use the phrase holy grail. 207 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's really even if you look at the 208 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:05,320 Speaker 2: poetry of the line that he said, or it's just 209 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 2: so simple, but it's the truth. But fission you have 210 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 2: to break, and for fusion, you have to fuse, right, 211 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 2: And I think what we need is a lot of 212 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 2: fusion in this world instead of breaking apart. So I 213 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:21,320 Speaker 2: think there's something that I find very spiritual in the 214 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 2: science of all of it that's really interesting. Yeah. 215 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 4: I think it's one of the things we thought about too, 216 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 4: is like fusion powers the universe, Like the universe has 217 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 4: already chosen fusion as like the main way to make energy, 218 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 4: and so like it seems like a good choice that 219 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 4: human civilization should eventually get to that same choice. 220 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:38,319 Speaker 5: It's proven, Is it proven? 221 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 4: Yes, it's a brun model. 222 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:42,959 Speaker 1: We like to talk about podcasts as the theater of 223 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 1: the mind. Garyell, what's it like as an outsider, like 224 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:50,959 Speaker 1: talk about the process of translating this through fashion from 225 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 1: mass audience. I mean, you had obviously a huge platform. 226 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 1: I think you had Gigi had Deed walk in that show. 227 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 2: Alex, a lot of models in our Big Models, Alex Costanini. 228 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 1: There's a yeah, what you're trying to achieve and did 229 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 1: you do it? Well? 230 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 2: What I tried to achieve was I think information is 231 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:11,079 Speaker 2: very siloed. So the science community, the fusion community all 232 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 2: know what's going on and the updates, and the fashion 233 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 2: community all know their own things, and it's all very 234 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 2: silo or information. And if I just get a few 235 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 2: more people to know about it, just did you need 236 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 2: that public support in a way? So I think I 237 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 2: got like at least ten more people to know about it. 238 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 4: Maybe a few more solid And I think on our side, 239 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 4: it's like that is so important because like we're working 240 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 4: to get the technology to work, but that is not 241 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 4: sufficient to really achieve like the longer energy mission of fusion. 242 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 4: It's like you need a world who understands fusion and 243 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 4: is excited about it and like wants to bring it 244 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 4: all forward. Like you need politicians involved, you need like 245 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 4: heavy industry, you need like financing, you need public policy, 246 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:54,840 Speaker 4: you need all of these pieces together, and like the 247 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:57,720 Speaker 4: only way you educate that much larger group of people 248 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 4: is to have a much wider platform, and like all 249 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,439 Speaker 4: the work the gabrielity is critical to that wider platform. 250 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 1: And it kind of paid off. I guess would you 251 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:05,959 Speaker 1: feel the need to do that again or do you 252 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: think like mission accomplished. 253 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:09,040 Speaker 2: In terms of no, no, no, till fusion is in 254 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:10,719 Speaker 2: the grid, the mission is not accomplished. 255 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 1: Until fusion is in the grid, the mission is unaccomplished. 256 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think we're clear now. 257 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 4: I agree. 258 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 5: We did get an article in Vanity Fair. 259 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 2: So I think it's about telling these great news because 260 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:28,080 Speaker 2: it's great news. There's like brilliant people like my friend 261 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 2: Alex doing this work in the world, and they could 262 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 2: have used that brilliance for something else and using it 263 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 2: to save our buds. And it's a very holistic approach. 264 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 2: Is like its whoever wins the race's good for. 265 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 5: All of us. 266 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 1: So I read it. I read a piece this morning 267 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: actually which said that around a dozen nuclear fusion startups 268 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 1: in the US have raised more than one hundred million 269 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 1: dollars in recent years. One of those, of course, is 270 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 1: Commonwealth Fusion Systems. Gabriella, you studied the whole ecosystem. I 271 00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 1: think you met a lot of the companies, Why Commonwealth 272 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:01,559 Speaker 1: and why Alex in terms of one of the companies 273 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 1: that you want to make a special effort to showcase they. 274 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 2: Are transparency their commitment to the timeline. And I don't 275 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 2: think we ever spoke about this meeting a lot of 276 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 2: the members. I never met somebody with a big ego. 277 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 2: I met very dedicated people that were extremely committed to 278 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 2: this vision and this passion and all rooted for like, 279 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 2: oh shit, we have a big problem. Our humanity is 280 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:30,839 Speaker 2: facing a big problem, and we're going to commit our 281 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 2: life to this. And so it was really the people 282 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 2: that made me think common World fushould and they're really 283 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 2: going at it in the timeline. 284 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 5: I think you guys are like what on timeline or not? 285 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:46,959 Speaker 5: Something too not too oft. 286 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 4: We're moving fast. We always want to be faster, but 287 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:50,200 Speaker 4: we're moving fast. 288 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 1: I'm moving fast towards what are you doing? What does 289 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 1: it mean to be the director of the Tokomac operations? 290 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:57,560 Speaker 1: Like just break it down for us in a very 291 00:13:57,880 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 1: simple way. 292 00:13:58,520 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 2: Sure. 293 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 4: Sure, So I end up with two jobs right now. 294 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 4: We're a startup, so you know, with more jobs than 295 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 4: you like. One of my jobs is the director of 296 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 4: Tokmac Operations. So right now we're building a demonstration plant 297 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 4: just outside of Boston. It's not yet a full power plant, 298 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:13,959 Speaker 4: but it shows that all the stuff works, and so 299 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:16,959 Speaker 4: I am managing the operations team for that, like, once 300 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 4: we finished building it, how do you turn it on? 301 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 4: Like which buttons do you push? And like hopefully don't 302 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 4: break it. And actually the process of transitioning that job 303 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 4: to some other people because we've like kind of trained 304 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 4: up a great team. So I'm transitioning now to be 305 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 4: the chief engineer for ARC Design. And so ARC is 306 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 4: our power plant that'll be in Virginia. We're starting the 307 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 4: design process for that and so today most of my 308 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 4: time is focused on the power plant design. 309 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 2: So basically, this is what's so brilliant about them is 310 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 2: that they're doing both the demo and the commercial at 311 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 2: the same time. 312 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 5: It's not like a linear thing. 313 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 2: It's like, oh, well, first we are going to do 314 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 2: the demo and then we're going to do the commercial 315 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 2: plan we don't have that time, so they're doing both. 316 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's like the first one is sparked the 317 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:56,200 Speaker 4: one we're building now. It like proves out all the technology. 318 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 4: It like proves out that we as an organization can 319 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 4: figure out how to build stuff, and then we take 320 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 4: all of that experience, all that learning, and we bring 321 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 4: it to the real commercial power plant which sits on 322 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 4: the grid makes electricity. You know, it looks like a 323 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 4: coal power plant, but without the coal part. 324 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 1: Off the break Why wind and solar energy aren't enough 325 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 1: and how AI demand plays into everything, Stay with us. 326 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 1: Samultman is involved with one of the nuclear fusion companies 327 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 1: called is it Helion or Helios Helion, Heleon, and they've 328 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 1: promised commercial deployment and to provide power to Microsoft by 329 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 1: twenty twenty eight. Yeah, is that credible? And what's your timeline? 330 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 5: Yeah? 331 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 4: So our timeline is the early twenty thirties, and I 332 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 4: think we try to avoid very specific numbers until we're 333 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 4: fairly confident we can actually deliver on those. So early 334 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 4: twenty thirties. Our first plant will be in Virginia, and 335 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 4: we've actually also signed they're called a power purchase agreement. 336 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 4: Basically someone signed up to buy your electricity. We've signed 337 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 4: one with Google and one with any which is an 338 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 4: Italian energy company. They'll both buy electricity from the same 339 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 4: plant in Virginia. There's other companies working on this helion 340 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 4: as one of them. I think different companies have slightly 341 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 4: different philosophies of like how ambitious to be with their timelines. 342 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 4: We think our timelines are like very ambitious, but also realistic. 343 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 4: I think maybe there's some skepticism as to how realistic 344 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 4: other people's timelines are. But at some level it's good 345 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 4: to be ambitious, like going fast is good, as Gaby 346 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 4: said earlier, like anyone gets fusion working, that's good for 347 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 4: the world, Like that's good for humanity. And so we're 348 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 4: rooting for these other companies. It's a friendly rivalry. We 349 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 4: are working toward our timelines. We think our times are realistic, 350 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 4: and other people they have their own technology, they have 351 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 4: their own timelines that they're working toward. 352 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 1: So I mean, you very clearly articulated the mission, which 353 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: is getting energy onto the grid. That's the clearest articulation 354 00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 1: of the mission that I've I've heard talk about what 355 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 1: does it mean to get the energy onto the grid? 356 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 1: And why is that the mission? 357 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:06,119 Speaker 2: Because we are in this path and it really is 358 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:09,399 Speaker 2: about the burning of fossil fuels. We can go on 359 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:11,919 Speaker 2: and on about the many things, but it's the burning 360 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 2: of fossil fuels, which if you look at it in abstraction, 361 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:19,040 Speaker 2: is a really bad idea, right, but it produces energy. 362 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 2: It's like we're taking dead fossils, taking it out of 363 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 2: the earth, burning it, shooting it to the atmosphere. It's 364 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:31,160 Speaker 2: just like the process is so polluting, it's like burning death. 365 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 2: Like I don't want to be too dramatic, but literally, 366 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 2: And so it is the burning of fossil fuels that 367 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 2: has to stop. And it's not raining in the Amazons. 368 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:44,440 Speaker 2: I don't want to ruin your day, but it's not 369 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 2: raining in the Amazons. It's like we are in a 370 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 2: really pivotal point where all the dreams that we had 371 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:54,480 Speaker 2: to control the temperature that's done. That doesn't mean we're 372 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:57,119 Speaker 2: still not going to need fusion. So as soon as 373 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:01,439 Speaker 2: we can get the burning of fossil fuels with whatever 374 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 2: technology that has the scale, because we know that wind 375 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 2: and solar don't have the scale to take this, and. 376 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:10,879 Speaker 1: They also harder to integrate onto the grid because their fluctuations. 377 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 4: Right yeah, and wind and solar are great, they're great, 378 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 4: we should do more of it, but they have their challenges. 379 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 4: And it's like, especially in areas that they have fluctuations 380 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 4: that aren't well suited, Like places are cloudy all the time, 381 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 4: probably you shouldn't install a bunch of solar. And then 382 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 4: especially in like big population centers, so like we're in 383 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 4: New York City, it's really hard to power all of 384 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:29,119 Speaker 4: New York City with wind and solar. You just need 385 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 4: so much land and then all the transmission of getting 386 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 4: the electricity from wherever you made it to where you 387 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:38,440 Speaker 4: need it. That big cities are much better suited to 388 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:41,440 Speaker 4: like a box that makes electricity, yeah, rather than like 389 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 4: like collecting it out of the environment. That's where fusion 390 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 4: strong point is is like it is big population centers, 391 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:50,119 Speaker 4: it is areas that are really energy intensive, and then 392 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 4: it helps smooth out all the challenges of wind and 393 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:53,880 Speaker 4: solar that are on and off and on and off. 394 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 4: You can do energy storage, but that adds up pretty 395 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 4: quickly as well as being challenging, especially when you if 396 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:01,680 Speaker 4: you're so much wind but then it's not windy for 397 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:03,920 Speaker 4: a week. You know, a lot of energy storage, but 398 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:06,200 Speaker 4: fusion allows you to like smooth all that out with stuff. 399 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 4: We call it firm, but it's like on when you 400 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 4: need it, off when you don't energy. 401 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 1: What needs to happen between now and the twenty thirties 402 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:15,240 Speaker 1: for you to achieve your mission. 403 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a great question. A lot of things, and 404 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 4: I'll start with like, we have to finish developing the technology. 405 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 1: You can create the heat, but what can you not do? 406 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:23,959 Speaker 4: Yeah, so we can create the heat, but right now 407 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 4: it takes more energy to do the fusion process. Then 408 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 4: you get out of the future process. So it's like 409 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 4: a really cool science experiment. You can make fusion happen, 410 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 4: but it's not a power plant, and so there's a 411 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 4: lot of technologies that goes into getting that final step 412 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 4: and then efficiently getting the heat out and using it 413 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:43,719 Speaker 4: for something. There's a lot of scientists and engineers all 414 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 4: around the world working on this. People really care about this, 415 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 4: like people have dedicated their careers to making this happen. 416 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 4: In addition to that, we need a supply chain. So 417 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:54,359 Speaker 4: like building one power plant awesome, really cool, great for 418 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 4: a step, Like we need a lot of these. It's 419 00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 4: like to really make an impact on the grid, To 420 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:02,120 Speaker 4: really make an impact on carbon emissions, you need thousands 421 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:05,200 Speaker 4: of power plants. So we need to develop global supply 422 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:07,320 Speaker 4: chains who can make all the stuff that you put 423 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 4: into a power plant. We need the right policy. So 424 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:13,920 Speaker 4: having governments around the world combination of encourage people to 425 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 4: do fusion but also regulate it in an appropriate framework. 426 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:19,640 Speaker 4: We want to do this very safely, but we want 427 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:21,639 Speaker 4: to do it appropriately, So we want to regulate things 428 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 4: appropriately for the actual risks of them. And so getting 429 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:27,920 Speaker 4: the right regulatory and framework around the world and getting 430 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:30,920 Speaker 4: awareness in so like one of the big philosophies that 431 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:32,680 Speaker 4: CFS has had is like, we only want to go 432 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:35,439 Speaker 4: into communities that want us there, So we don't want 433 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 4: to like bust down the door and be like we're 434 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 4: building a power plan here, like too bad for you. 435 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 4: And so having people who are aware of fusion, who 436 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 4: are interested in fusion, who are excited about fusion really 437 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:46,119 Speaker 4: helps us go build power plants because then people are 438 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:47,400 Speaker 4: like no, no, no, please come here, like we want 439 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 4: this new power plan here. So you need all these 440 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 4: pieces to come together to build power plants. 441 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 1: The Ft said, in seven decades of experiments, no group 442 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 1: has developed a machine that can produce more energy than 443 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:04,120 Speaker 1: the power hungry devices consume. You believe that's about to change. 444 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 4: It has changed. So twenty twenty two, a lab in 445 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 4: California that Lawrence Livermore National Lab produced more energy out 446 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 4: than in. That's the first time ever in human history 447 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 4: that's happened. And it was after the Financial Times article, 448 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 4: so it's yeah, an update and. 449 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:17,720 Speaker 5: After my show. 450 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 4: So I looked like I was like some oracle and 451 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 4: like it's like three months later. 452 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was like and then it was more onto 453 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:25,879 Speaker 2: like and people started texting me, oh my god, this 454 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 2: fusion thing, and I'm like timing, and so. 455 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 4: We hope to be the second place to do that. 456 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:32,680 Speaker 4: So this lab in California has done it. We hope 457 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 4: to be the second place to do that. And then 458 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:36,920 Speaker 4: the next step is go from make more energy out 459 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 4: to make enough more energy out that you can make 460 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:40,160 Speaker 4: a power plant. 461 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:42,360 Speaker 1: And Gabrielle, what's changed since you did the show? 462 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:44,399 Speaker 5: This is a big change. 463 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 2: I do think that there is much more awareness that 464 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:51,959 Speaker 2: breakthrough got a lot of media attention. When I started, 465 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:55,720 Speaker 2: the AI boom wasn't happening, Like AI was talked about 466 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,600 Speaker 2: the fear of AI, but it wasn't like a booming. 467 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 5: So I think it is definitely something that is really 468 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 5: thought through. 469 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 2: Yeahs as the need and as you said, the very 470 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 2: good definition of power hungry devices. 471 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 5: It's true. 472 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:12,200 Speaker 4: One of the reasons, I mean, we were going to 473 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 4: build a power plant regardless of AI. One of the 474 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:16,920 Speaker 4: reasons we're building it specifically in Virginia is because of 475 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 4: data centers. The Virginia area has so many data centers 476 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:22,879 Speaker 4: they really, really, really need more electricity. And so they 477 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 4: were again very excited. Both the individual community was excited 478 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 4: because it was a fusion plant, but like the state 479 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:31,159 Speaker 4: of Virginia and like the power producers there were very 480 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:33,440 Speaker 4: excited that fusion was coming because they need electricity. 481 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,440 Speaker 1: I mean, also just how the culture has changed, right 482 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,600 Speaker 1: Like if you look at twenty twelve period with AI, 483 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: there was like Jeffrey Hinton, who just won the Nobel Prize. 484 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 1: He and his lab couldn't get access to the supercomputers 485 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 1: at the leading universities, so they bought in video chips, 486 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:53,479 Speaker 1: figured out how to basically engineer them to be AI chips, 487 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 1: and this amazing boom was born. What's changed in terms 488 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 1: of the culture, in terms of the perception of the 489 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 1: industry since you've been working in it at Eggs and 490 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 1: what still needs to change. 491 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:07,399 Speaker 4: I've been in fusion now for ten years. It's a 492 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:09,920 Speaker 4: little bit longer. I started started undergrad doing some internships, 493 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:12,160 Speaker 4: and I think at the time it was still viewed 494 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:16,159 Speaker 4: as an academic pursuit. It was a scientific interest. I 495 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:19,440 Speaker 4: got into fusion for the Climate Mission, for the Energy 496 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 4: Mission of like we need energy, and we want clean energy, 497 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 4: we want for an energy but broadly it was still 498 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:27,680 Speaker 4: in the academic realm. And over those ten years people 499 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 4: have realized that like, no, no, this is coming soon 500 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,240 Speaker 4: right on this precipice. It's like fusion, Like it feels 501 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 4: impossible until all of a sudden it feels inevitable. I 502 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:38,400 Speaker 4: mean like powered flights the same way. Like a week 503 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 4: before the Wright brothers through their airplane, there was like 504 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 4: this whole article about how flight's impossible and like we 505 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 4: should stop this folly of that, you know, to waste 506 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 4: the time. That's really changed. I think that a lot 507 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:49,680 Speaker 4: of the attitude around the world has changed, like yeah, 508 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:51,200 Speaker 4: this is you know, some crazy scientists. 509 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 2: Like whatever I was confronted constantly is like from really 510 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:57,120 Speaker 2: smart people that I respect, like this is not gonna 511 00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 2: even happen. I remember when we did the panel in Cops. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 512 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 2: And what was the name of the former Dee arnimonies yes, yes, 513 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 2: he was a non believer and he turned his believer. 514 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 2: So there's there's a lot of believers now. Also, we 515 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:17,200 Speaker 2: haven't really talked that it doesn't use uranium. 516 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 4: We're getting close, and I think the world recognizes that, 517 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 4: and I think which is great also because because of 518 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:25,160 Speaker 4: the awareness, we get help and support from a much 519 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 4: wider range of people than we would have ten years ago. 520 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,440 Speaker 4: So suppliers we go, we need to order this weird 521 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:32,720 Speaker 4: part and like ten years ago and be like yeah, yeah, 522 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 4: get in line, like you know, maybe someday they're like, oh, 523 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 4: this is for fusion, great, like front of the line, 524 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 4: like we'll make this thing for you. 525 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:39,399 Speaker 1: So it's mostly exciting. 526 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's all. It's all sorts of stuff ranging from 527 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:43,480 Speaker 4: like big things of small things that are moving this 528 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:44,639 Speaker 4: faster carbrio. 529 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 1: You mentioned uranium. Why and what are the misconceptions that 530 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 1: you're battling. 531 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 2: No, it's not the misconception. It's just that we know 532 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 2: that uranium can be weaponized and fision, yeah for fiicient, 533 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 2: not for fusion, and fusion doesn't use uranium, and this 534 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,680 Speaker 2: idea of energy that is not weaponized it's very appealing. 535 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,359 Speaker 2: Just to be clear, I have nothing against about nuclear fission, 536 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 2: Like I'm like make nuclear great again. It's as I 537 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 2: get the end of the day, we want to replace 538 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 2: fossil fuels. That's that is and it's going to take 539 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:24,639 Speaker 2: a whole landscape of energy, right, fusion, wind, solar, geo thermal, 540 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,880 Speaker 2: now the technology to get geo thermal. It's like advancing 541 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 2: as well from areas that usually wouldn't have geo thermal. 542 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:33,359 Speaker 4: Yeah, you can think of it like like there's a 543 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:35,399 Speaker 4: portfolio of ergy, just like the same way you like 544 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 4: a financial portfolio. It's like portfolio of energy solutions that 545 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:40,639 Speaker 4: each are good in certain areas but maybe more challenging 546 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 4: other areas. 547 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 1: And if this works, would it not become one hundred 548 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 1: percent No? 549 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 4: No, Like fusion is great, it has a bunch. 550 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 2: Of country like mine doesn't need fusion. Uruay is completely hydro, 551 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,719 Speaker 2: does not need fusion. All the energy that was producing 552 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 2: my country is clean because we didn't have oil and 553 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,239 Speaker 2: to import oil is very very expensive. So for US, 554 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,160 Speaker 2: oil wasn't the easy option. But how do you power 555 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:04,119 Speaker 2: this country? Oh, we have a lot of rivers, so 556 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:06,760 Speaker 2: you'reways one of the cleanest countries in the world. 557 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,480 Speaker 4: Self promoting my country or like Iceland has geo thermal. Yeah, 558 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 4: they don't need they don't need a bunch of fusion. 559 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 4: But like large population centers or it's like very remote 560 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:18,440 Speaker 4: areas like there's like very few people when in solar 561 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 4: are so much better, Like you don't need a giant 562 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 4: power plant. Yeah, but for cities, especially for countries that 563 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 4: are very oil intensive or very natural gas intensive or 564 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 4: coal like that's for fusion. 565 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,600 Speaker 5: Big magnufacturing, big magnufacturing data center. 566 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:32,920 Speaker 4: It's part of a portfolio. It's not like fusion is 567 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 4: not the solution everything. It's part of a portfolio. 568 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 1: Can you clear fusion save the planet? How? On on 569 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:39,360 Speaker 1: what timeline? 570 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 2: The answer is yes, Yes, definitely is going to be 571 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,919 Speaker 2: one of the leading energies. And for those that want 572 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,680 Speaker 2: to leave the planet, they think they have to go 573 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 2: to Mars, they even need fusion for their rockets. So 574 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 2: without fusion they cannot even leave. So fusion is gonna 575 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:57,639 Speaker 2: happen one way. For those that are really ambitioning to 576 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 2: be out of I mean I like it here, they 577 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:03,159 Speaker 2: are going to need chuation for their rockets. 578 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,359 Speaker 5: So one way or an now or chuation has to happen. 579 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I think the having fusion in the 580 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,119 Speaker 4: world just makes a lot of things better. It reduces 581 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 4: all of our emissions. You can also think of it 582 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:14,159 Speaker 4: as like energy is no longer a thing that you 583 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:16,440 Speaker 4: have to dig out of the ground. That like some 584 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 4: countries have it in the ground, some countries don't. People 585 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 4: fight wars over that. Yeah, Like fusion means energy is 586 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,120 Speaker 4: a manufactured product. You don't have to fight wars over 587 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:28,680 Speaker 4: energy Anymoreah, there's emissions things that about fusion that would 588 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 4: be great. There's like geopolitical things about fusion that would 589 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 4: be great, and like on what timeline like soon, Like 590 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 4: I think the more help we can get, like the 591 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 4: more people around the world that know about fusion, that 592 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 4: are excited, that can take their talents from wherever they 593 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:41,639 Speaker 4: come from and like apply it to fusion, like, the 594 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:42,359 Speaker 4: faster it's. 595 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 2: Going to be. 596 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:45,520 Speaker 1: I definitely feel much better informed after this than I 597 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 1: did before. And thank you for laying out something which 598 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 1: feels complicated and scary in a way which was easy 599 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 1: to consume and understand. 600 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:54,840 Speaker 4: Thank you for having us, Thank you for having us. 601 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:15,920 Speaker 4: That's it for this week for tech stuff. 602 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 1: I'm Kara Price and I'm os Voloshin this episode, was 603 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:22,159 Speaker 1: produced by Eliza Dennis, Tyler Hill and Melissa Slaughter. It 604 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 1: was executive produced by me Karra Price, Julian Nutter, and 605 00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 1: Kate Osborne for Kaleidoscope and Katrina Norvel for iHeart Podcast. 606 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,640 Speaker 1: Kyle Murdoch mixed this episode and you also rode theme song. 607 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:34,920 Speaker 3: Join us on Friday for the Week in Tech, where 608 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 3: we'll run through the headlines you need to follow. 609 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 1: And please do rate and review the show wherever you listen, 610 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 1: and reach out to us at tech Stuff podcast at 611 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 1: gmail dot com with all of your thoughts and feedback. 612 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 1: We love hearing from you.