1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,519 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told You from how Supports 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristin 3 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:17,919 Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline, and welcome to part two of our 4 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: Stargazing Women's series about women in astronomy. And before we 5 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: dive in, Caroline, I had a moment of astronomical synchronicity 6 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:33,440 Speaker 1: happened in the car yesterday. Can I tell you about it? 7 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:35,199 Speaker 1: Because I got so excited because we were doing this 8 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: podcast today. So I'm listening to NPR per usual and 9 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:45,239 Speaker 1: an announcement comes on talking about this comment called the 10 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:49,279 Speaker 1: love Joy comment that was passing over Atlanta, where Caroline 11 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 1: and I are located. And I got really excited, not 12 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 1: so much about the comment, but because they interviewed a woman, 13 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 1: a strong themer at our local fern Bank Observatory, all 14 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:07,480 Speaker 1: about this comment. And I was like, Oh, this is 15 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 1: a woman. She the podcast has come alive. It's a 16 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 1: woman astronomer. They exist, and she's so excited about the 17 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 1: stars and here this whole time, I thought when the 18 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: podcast came alive, it would be on ice. No, not 19 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:25,400 Speaker 1: that's later. Okay, that's a that's one that's a project 20 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:27,679 Speaker 1: still in the works. You and I have to get 21 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:32,480 Speaker 1: our our ice dancing. Yes, yes, um, but yeah, I 22 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:35,320 Speaker 1: really nerded out in my car by myself. There was 23 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 1: no one to tell, so I just kind of yelped aloud. 24 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: Yes I was doing the same thing. But in my 25 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 1: bathroom getting ready to come to week, you heard the 26 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 1: same announcement I did. It's like it's as if we 27 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 1: both listened to NPR. Yeah, it's like we're both total 28 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: nerds who knew Um. When we left off in part one, 29 00:01:55,840 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 1: we had gotten up into this factory system of astronomical observations. 30 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 1: Women like Maria Mitchell were starting to make inroads in 31 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: terms of women in astronomy. You had observatory set up 32 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: at some women's colleges like Vasser, but we were still 33 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 1: kind of pushed off to this side in a lot 34 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 1: of ways. Right, A lot of the women who were 35 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 1: in astronomy in this era were definitely in the more 36 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:25,640 Speaker 1: clerical positions. And it wasn't because hey, women are so smart, 37 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 1: we love women. Put them in the clerical positions so 38 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:32,399 Speaker 1: they'll they'll make amazing discoveries. The popular opinion was more like, 39 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:36,359 Speaker 1: we don't trust women to use their delicate lady brains, 40 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 1: so let's put them in these clerical positions so they 41 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:43,079 Speaker 1: can pour over astro photography data for hours on end. 42 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:47,279 Speaker 1: But the great thing is that even in these positions 43 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:50,800 Speaker 1: of you know, supposed lesser power or lesser ability, they 44 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 1: still managed to make some pretty amazing discoveries. And one 45 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:57,920 Speaker 1: of the biggest names in this whole factory like setting 46 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: of astronomy was Charles Pickering at the Harvard Observatory. So, 47 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 1: thanks to photographic technology that was developing at the time, 48 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 1: they were able to see more than ever before. But 49 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 1: they needed to analyze all of these snapshots of the 50 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 1: sky that they were getting and it was very, very 51 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:21,639 Speaker 1: tedious work. Yeah, and so Pickering had this guy as 52 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:23,799 Speaker 1: his assistant and I don't know what the guy was doing. 53 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 1: I don't know if he's fallen asleep on the job, 54 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: but either way, he's just letting Pickering down. And so 55 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:32,800 Speaker 1: Pickering was like, screw you, dude, you're not doing your job. 56 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 1: I need somebody who's actually competent. And who did he 57 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 1: consider to be competent around him. Well, that would be 58 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 1: Wilhelmina Fleming, his maid. She's a single mother who Pickering 59 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: brings on as his astronomy assistant because he's like, I 60 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 1: know you, you hang out around me a lot, and 61 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: you're pretty competent, and so he passes along all of 62 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 1: this astro photography analysis to Fleming, who ends up working 63 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 1: at Harvard for more than thirty four years thanks to 64 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 1: her skill at computing and copying, and she was the 65 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 1: first woman to have a formal appointment there. And during 66 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: Pickering's time at Harvard, which lasted from eighteen seventy seven 67 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 1: to nineteen nineteen, more than eighty women worked for him 68 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 1: in mostly clerical capacities, doing computing and cataloging work, and 69 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 1: they are referred to often as Pickering's women, or alternatively 70 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 1: as Pickering's harem. Yeah, that's just great, that's so great. Yeah, 71 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: lots of lots of respect, so much respect. But they 72 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 1: were doing important work despite the stupid name. They provided 73 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 1: data that ended up forming the empirical basis for larger 74 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 1: astronomical theory. But of course they were earning just twenty 75 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:49,919 Speaker 1: five to fifty cents an hour, half of what a 76 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 1: man would have been paid in the same position. Yeah, 77 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:56,719 Speaker 1: and the Hard Observatory is an interesting case study in 78 00:04:56,839 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 1: how women contributed more data, particularly on variable stars, which 79 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:06,600 Speaker 1: your stars that change in brightness than their counterparts did. 80 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:10,840 Speaker 1: And it's largely due to this system that they had 81 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:15,239 Speaker 1: set up of all working together and sharing information and collaborating. 82 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 1: And I've got to give a shout out now to Cosmos, 83 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: the show hosted by Neil deGrasse Tyson, which in the 84 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 1: episode Sisters of the Sun, he takes the time to 85 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: focus on the women in the Harvard Observatory who were 86 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 1: laying the foundation for all of these incredible astronomical discoveries 87 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:41,279 Speaker 1: to come, because without Pickering's women, we would know so 88 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:45,720 Speaker 1: much less about the stars in the sky. Absolutely, and 89 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 1: Dorritt Hofflett from Yale University, who herself was a giant 90 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:54,039 Speaker 1: name in astronomy, wrote about variable stars in particular, and 91 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:57,039 Speaker 1: she talked about how from the eighteen eighties, so Pickering time, 92 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:00,839 Speaker 1: to the nineteen fifties, women contributed way more data on 93 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:03,359 Speaker 1: these types of stars. Variable stars are the kind that 94 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:07,160 Speaker 1: change brightness than their male counterparts did. By n nine, 95 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 1: in fact, women including Willamina Fleming, had discovered more than 96 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 1: of the more than fourteen thousand named variable stars then known. 97 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 1: But we should back up first for a minute. Yeah, 98 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:24,359 Speaker 1: we need to hop back to six. When a woman 99 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:28,719 Speaker 1: named Annie Jump. Cannon transfers from Wellesley, where she helped 100 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 1: conduct experiments on X rays, to Radcliffe College in order 101 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 1: to make her way into Pickering's observatory. And what she 102 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 1: did was simplify Pickering in Willamina Fleming's system for classifying 103 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:46,559 Speaker 1: stars and the work that Cannon does. The simplest way 104 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:50,159 Speaker 1: to explain it is that she, I mean, she almost 105 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:53,600 Speaker 1: set up like a Dewey decimal system for the stars. 106 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 1: She figured out how to categorize and label all of them. 107 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: I mean, then this is still the system that we 108 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:04,720 Speaker 1: used today, right, And in ninety two, this this definitely 109 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 1: did not go unnoticed because in nineteen two, the International 110 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 1: Astronomical Union ended up adopting her method of categorizing stars, 111 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 1: which was based on their temperatures, as the official classification system. 112 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 1: So that's no small potatoes, and she received a whole 113 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 1: lot of accolades going forward. In five she was the 114 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 1: first woman to be awarded an honorary doctorate from the 115 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 1: University of Oxford, and in nineteen thirty three, after becoming 116 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 1: the first woman officer in the American Astronomical Society, she 117 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: established their Annie Jump Canon Award, which is given to 118 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 1: a North American Female astronomer four distinguished contributions to the field, 119 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 1: and we will have more to say about that award 120 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 1: and how it changed later in this nineteen seventies. But 121 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty eight, Harvard appointed Canon the William C. 122 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 1: Bond Professor of Astronomy. So she is definitely one of 123 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 1: the huge names in astronomy, specifically as someone who came 124 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 1: out of Lemmings, you know, group of women. I won't 125 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 1: say Harem, I just said Harim. Yeah, we need a 126 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 1: better name rather than I don't even like pickerings women. 127 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 1: Does that even sound so possessive? So maybe we should 128 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 1: rename them, I mean Sisters of the Sun, which is 129 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: what Neil deGrasse Tyson called them, or whoever wrote his scripts. 130 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 1: I thought was pretty good. And at the end of 131 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 1: that episode side note, Caroline, he's drinking some wine with 132 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 1: this older woman. I think he's in Italy or something, 133 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 1: and he looks into the camera and raises his wine 134 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:34,840 Speaker 1: glass and toast the Sisters of the Sun. And that's 135 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 1: well he should. It's an amazing moment. But anyway, there's 136 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 1: another woman that we need to mention. He was working 137 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 1: alongside Annie Jump Cannon at this time. She actually joined 138 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 1: the Harvard Observatory in just a year prior to Annie 139 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 1: Jump Cannon. And this is Henrietta Swan Levitt. And what 140 00:08:56,080 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: she did was figure out a way to men sure 141 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 1: the distance of stars really really really far away. It's 142 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 1: something called the Seafia variable period luminosity relationship. Of course, yeah, 143 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 1: I mean which obviously, um so it's often referred to 144 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 1: as the distance key. And this made possible all subsequent 145 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 1: discoveries in astronomy of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries because 146 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:28,959 Speaker 1: they could finally get dimensions to these farther away kinds 147 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 1: of stars. So not only do we have Cannon who 148 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 1: is labeling and categorizing all these stars, now we have 149 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 1: lovet coming along to offer some distance in there. And 150 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 1: then when we get to we have Cecilia Paine, who 151 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:49,560 Speaker 1: then offers us this breakthrough information on the composition of 152 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 1: the stars. Right. And so what's interesting about Cecilia pain 153 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 1: is that you know, she makes these amazing contributions, but 154 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 1: there's a little bit of self doubt in there. But 155 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 1: first let's established why she's so awesome. Cecilia Paine is 156 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 1: the first person to receive a PhD from the Harvard 157 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:09,959 Speaker 1: Astronomy Department, and her thesis rocks the astrophysics world because 158 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:13,679 Speaker 1: she demonstrated that the Sun was made almost exclusively from 159 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 1: hydrogen and helium, thus its makeup was way different from 160 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:20,439 Speaker 1: the Earth, because leading up to the scientists had thought 161 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 1: that the Earth and the Sun were basically composed similarly. 162 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: But you know, Kristen, you and I have talked about 163 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 1: the imposter syndrome on the podcast before. To protect her reputation, 164 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 1: Paine inserted a clause at the beginning of her thesis 165 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 1: stating that the results were quote probably not real, just 166 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:42,959 Speaker 1: in case somebody laughed at her or said this is ridiculous. 167 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: She was like, oh, hey, I'm just gonna put this 168 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 1: here about what the Sun is made of. But who knows, 169 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 1: maybe it's wrong. Well, I mean, she had already gotten 170 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 1: flak from professors. I forget, there's a specific guy at 171 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:58,680 Speaker 1: Harvard who had looked at her work and was really 172 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 1: skeptical just because it was such a revolutionary idea. And 173 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 1: imagine too that your Cecilia Paine. And she came to 174 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:11,680 Speaker 1: the United States from Britain specifically because in Britain at 175 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:15,079 Speaker 1: the time, she couldn't go to college, she couldn't study 176 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 1: alongside men. So I mean imposter syndrome on top of 177 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:23,560 Speaker 1: impostor syndrome for this woman who is studying theoretical and 178 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 1: anatomical physics and blowing people's minds at a time when 179 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:30,880 Speaker 1: in the place that she's from, she wasn't even allowed 180 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:33,680 Speaker 1: to go to school, right, and her work ended up 181 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 1: laying the foundation for our understanding of stars compositions in general, 182 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 1: not just the sun, and a Guardian article referred to 183 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 1: it as the astrophysical equivalent of Darwin's origin of the species, 184 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 1: so clearly laying some amazing groundwork for astronomy. So did 185 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: a similar pattern of allowing more women into the fold 186 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 1: happened during World War Two for women in astronomy as well. Yeah, 187 00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:01,079 Speaker 1: I mean it definitely did. World War two shook up society, 188 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:03,560 Speaker 1: as we know and have talked about many times on 189 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:07,439 Speaker 1: the podcast. STEM jobs were definitely no exception because as 190 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:11,199 Speaker 1: we've seen from the last episode on Astronomy and as 191 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 1: we're talking about now, educational and professional opportunities were definitely 192 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 1: expanding as more women's colleges were opening their doors to 193 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:20,680 Speaker 1: researchers and helping women get a foot in the door 194 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:26,320 Speaker 1: um not to mention the the social change as far 195 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 1: as ideas about women not being physically or mentally fit 196 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 1: to work outside the home or in scientific fields were 197 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 1: starting to fall away, and the notion about married women 198 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 1: needing to stay home was also falling away. Of course, 199 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:41,440 Speaker 1: it's not totally though, because that's still kind of as around. 200 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:45,319 Speaker 1: But during the war, during World War two, there were 201 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 1: fewer male grad students around, and so there was a 202 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:51,960 Speaker 1: relative increase in the number of female astronomers in the 203 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 1: nineteen In particular in the United States, the National Science 204 00:12:56,280 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 1: Foundation estimated that bachelor's degrees in physics reach the high 205 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 1: of up from fourteen percent in nineteen forty. And the 206 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:08,080 Speaker 1: reason that we're pointing out physics and in particulars that 207 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 1: most astronomy grad students do have a physics degree. And 208 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 1: thanks to the technological research happening during World War One 209 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 1: that's fueled by military pursuits, astronomy is still an evolving 210 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:24,560 Speaker 1: field because you get the emergence of radio astronomy, which 211 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 1: happened during the war thanks to radar research, and so 212 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 1: you have this combinations of new fields and branches within 213 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 1: the field and also fewer men. So in Australia. Ruby 214 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 1: Payne Scott became one of the first radio astronomers and 215 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 1: was the first woman radio astronomer, and she was also 216 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 1: an author on numerous early papers and became a scientific 217 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:53,839 Speaker 1: leader until after the war. Right, Yeah, when the men 218 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 1: start coming home from the war and women's overall numbers 219 00:13:56,840 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 1: not only in the workforce in general, but also in 220 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:04,199 Speaker 1: astronomy and other stem fields. When men's numbers increase, in 221 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 1: women's numbers decrease. After the war, pain Scott still managed 222 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 1: to make huge contributions to the understanding of solar radio 223 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:18,560 Speaker 1: bursts and the development of radio astronomical techniques and instruments. 224 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 1: So that's great, right, Like she manages to hold on 225 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 1: when so many women were shoved out of the workforce 226 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 1: when men came home. It didn't last long because even 227 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 1: though I literally just mentioned a second ago that the 228 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 1: idea that women needed to stay home and be wives 229 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: and mothers and oh you better not higher wives and mothers, 230 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 1: because women in the workforce are obviously like aberrations of 231 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 1: the norm. Ruby pain Scott was doing great. She had 232 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 1: to hide the fact though, that she was getting married, 233 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 1: and when she got pregnant she ended up having to 234 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 1: resign from the field. And of course this follows the 235 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 1: fact that she was also suspected of being a comy 236 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 1: and was definitely an outspoken feminist about getting other women 237 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 1: involved in astronomy and stem fields, and so people were like, wait, 238 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 1: so you're a comi feminist, outspoken scientific lady, and now 239 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 1: you're getting married and having a child. Get out of here. 240 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 1: The world was not ready for Ruby Payne Scott. Now 241 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 1: it sounds like well, and when it comes so to 242 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 1: that whole marriage factor, this is a pattern that you're 243 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 1: gonna see throughout the next few decades in terms of 244 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: UM observatories and research facilities having these anti nepotism rules, 245 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 1: which essentially meant that if your husband is working in 246 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 1: a lab, then his your the wife is not going 247 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 1: to be allowed to work in the lab because that's 248 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: what they considered nepotism, which actually hampered a lot of 249 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: women's careers because, I mean, it makes sense that you know, 250 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 1: you're an astrophysicist, you meet another astroid physicist, you fall 251 00:15:56,520 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 1: in love, you know, stars, and you're literally the stars aligne. 252 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 1: So there, you know, that's that's that's sort of a 253 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 1: downer of a rule for a number of these astronomers 254 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 1: astronomers working. But of course, when it comes to this 255 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 1: anti nepotism rule, it's the wife who has to go home, 256 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 1: not the husband typically, which leads us to second wave feminism. Yes. 257 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 1: According to the National Science Foundation, though, uh, from nine 258 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 1: to nineteen seventy, the proportion of women earning bachelor's degrees 259 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 1: in physics states still at about four to six percent, 260 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 1: So not a ton of women studying physics. Yeah, but 261 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 1: when you move into the sixties and seventies, the numbers 262 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 1: start to increase. In nineteen seventy two, for instance, if 263 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 1: we're talking about bachelor's degrees, women earn seventeen percent of 264 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 1: bachelor's degrees in astronomy. And during that period of the 265 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 1: sixties to the seventies, while the number of female PhDs rose, 266 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 1: the percentage of women in the American Astronomical Society, for instance, 267 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 1: dropped to just eight percent buying nineteen seventy three. So 268 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 1: the numbers are sort of all over the place. And 269 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:06,879 Speaker 1: during this time, the job prospects are still terrible for 270 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:10,439 Speaker 1: married women. There was a lot of fear about women 271 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 1: taking time off to have children. Oh yeah, the workplace 272 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 1: issues for working moms in astronomy echoes so many of 273 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:21,159 Speaker 1: the workplace issues we still hear about today for working moms, 274 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 1: that whole sneering at part time work of trying to 275 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 1: balance family and this really intensive research because understandably, astronomy 276 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:33,360 Speaker 1: is like say, being a lawyer, is a field that 277 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 1: requires and you're expected to pour so many hours. It's 278 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:43,160 Speaker 1: not a forty hour week kind of gig. And with that, 279 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:47,200 Speaker 1: there are still echoes of the Pickering's women or Pickering's 280 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:51,199 Speaker 1: harem era going on. Um. Which leads us to the 281 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 1: story of Joscelyn Bell Burnell, who discovered pulsars. F y, 282 00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 1: I pull stars are remnants of massive stars after they've exploded. 283 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:05,159 Speaker 1: And I think that before Burnell figured that out, we 284 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:09,440 Speaker 1: thought that they were aliens. Really, yeah, the little green men. 285 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:13,640 Speaker 1: Really yep. I had no idea. I'm learning so much 286 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: from you, Kristen. Well, I'm just I just learned a 287 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 1: lot from the Neil de Grass type. So well, there 288 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: we go. Um, and this is coming from natural geographic 289 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 1: But in nineteen sixty seven, Burnell, as you said, discovered 290 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:28,360 Speaker 1: pulsars while she was in grad school four radio astronomy. Hey, 291 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:34,919 Speaker 1: Ruby Paine Scott at Cambridge in England, and Burnell was just, 292 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:39,199 Speaker 1: you know, no big deal, studying three miles worth of 293 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 1: paper from a radio telescope that she helped build when 294 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:46,359 Speaker 1: she made this discovery, and hooray it resulted in a 295 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 1: Nobel prize. That's wonderful, right, Yeah, but the Nobel Prize 296 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 1: went to her male supervisor and another male astronomer. Yeah. 297 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 1: So Burnell, the way that she explains it is the 298 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:00,080 Speaker 1: picture people had at the time of the way the 299 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 1: science was done was that there was a senior man, 300 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:05,200 Speaker 1: and it was always a man who had under him 301 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 1: a whole load of minions, junior staff who weren't expected 302 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 1: to think, who were only expected to do as he said. 303 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 1: So how did I mean that sounds exactly like pickerings women. Yeah. 304 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 1: And I heard an interview with Burrell on the BBC 305 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 1: from not that long ago and they played a clip 306 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:25,680 Speaker 1: of the male supervisor who had received the Nobel Prize 307 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 1: and he stood by it. He essentially said, well, you 308 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 1: just have to understand that there's a difference between the 309 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:36,439 Speaker 1: captain of the ship and the crew. So when you know, 310 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:40,719 Speaker 1: if there's a successful voyage, who's really to think? And 311 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:44,160 Speaker 1: so I mean this guy clearly fancies himself a captain 312 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:46,639 Speaker 1: of of a pleasure group. Do you think he wears 313 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 1: like a jaunty captain's hat. Yes, I knew, and Belle 314 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:53,399 Speaker 1: Burnell when she was asked by the BBC reporter for 315 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 1: her response to that, she was essentially like, that's where 316 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:00,680 Speaker 1: he stands. If I got if I continue to get 317 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:04,399 Speaker 1: mad about this every day, then I would not be 318 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:08,879 Speaker 1: able to do any work. But she made so clear 319 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 1: how challenging it was constantly to be a woman in 320 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:17,880 Speaker 1: this field, even before the whole balancing of family and career. 321 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:22,920 Speaker 1: When she first walked into like an auditorium sized classroom 322 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 1: in college, all of the men in the room started 323 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:29,720 Speaker 1: stamping their feet and whooping because that was just tradition, 324 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 1: because she was, you know, the only woman in the room, 325 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 1: and so of course she was going to get heckled. 326 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 1: And so that's what was happening when she was in 327 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:42,119 Speaker 1: graduate school. And then she gets the Nobel Prize just 328 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 1: snatched out from under her. And a National Geographic points 329 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 1: out that even though yes, this woman discovered pool stars 330 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 1: should have been given a Nobel Prize, etcetera, many of 331 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 1: the positions she was offered in her career were focused 332 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 1: on teaching or administrative and management duties because that was 333 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 1: still seen as more women appropriate work. Yeah, and she 334 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 1: does point out that it was extremely hard combining family 335 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 1: and career, which is something that women today obviously still 336 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 1: struggle with. Times have not changed that much, But as 337 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 1: of Burnell was a visiting astronomy professor at the University 338 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,399 Speaker 1: of Oxford. She recently chaired a working group for the 339 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: Royal Society of Edinburgh and she was tasked with finding 340 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 1: a strategy to boost the number of women in stem 341 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:29,399 Speaker 1: fields in Scotland. And there was one more think here 342 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,719 Speaker 1: only that jumped out to me. In that BBC interview 343 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 1: we mentioned that the impostor syndrome and Cecilia Paine's work 344 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:41,639 Speaker 1: in the nineteen twenties. Bell Burnell specifically called out the 345 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:45,359 Speaker 1: impostor syndrome as well, and she even asked the report 346 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 1: She was like, if you ever heard of this thing 347 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:50,880 Speaker 1: called the impostor syndrome. Yeah, It's essentially been something I've 348 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 1: had to fight every single day of my career. That 349 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 1: sense of oh, well, no, I'm going to be found 350 00:21:56,320 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 1: out at some point because I surely I don't belong here. 351 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 1: But obviously those feelings of not belonging have nothing to 352 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 1: do with her actual intelligence and prowess, but the environment, 353 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:10,360 Speaker 1: the hostile environment she's been working in now for decades. 354 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 1: And then as we moved through the nineteen seventies, there 355 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 1: are a couple more developments in the field of astronomy 356 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 1: that had a lot to do with women. Um in 357 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:23,480 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy one asked her physicist Margaret Bourbage declined the 358 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:25,639 Speaker 1: Cannon Prize. Now we mentioned the Cannon Prize earlier. It 359 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:29,879 Speaker 1: was supposed to go to, you know, incredible female astronomers 360 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:33,439 Speaker 1: who've made great strides and made great contributions to the field. 361 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 1: But Bourbage said that the prize was discriminatory because it 362 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:40,680 Speaker 1: was available only to women. And the direct result of 363 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 1: this was that the American Astronomical Society established basically a 364 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:48,920 Speaker 1: Lady Committee that recommended the prize become a research award 365 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 1: for which women in early stages of their careers could apply. 366 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 1: The reasoning being that women faced numerous disadvantages early on 367 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:02,720 Speaker 1: in their education, in their grad school career and getting 368 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:05,680 Speaker 1: a career going off the ground, and so yeah, basically, 369 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:07,160 Speaker 1: the reasoning was like, if we give it to women 370 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:10,879 Speaker 1: who were still in school, then that's not as discriminatory. 371 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,879 Speaker 1: And so in nineteen seventy two they recommended that the 372 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,160 Speaker 1: a S set up a group to review the status 373 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:18,679 Speaker 1: of women in astronomy, And in nineteen seventy three, that 374 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,440 Speaker 1: new committee, the Working Group on the Status of Women 375 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:24,440 Speaker 1: in Astronomy, released a report where they found that the 376 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:26,359 Speaker 1: percent of women in the a a S was the 377 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 1: lowest ever in its history, that women were underrepresentative officers 378 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 1: and other people in this group, and that the United 379 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,520 Speaker 1: States was seventh, and the percentage of female members of 380 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:42,360 Speaker 1: the International Astronomy Union. So basically, basically this group is like, hey, 381 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:48,200 Speaker 1: women aren't in enough places in astronomy. Yeah. And as 382 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 1: a result of all this information that they're finding out 383 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:53,959 Speaker 1: the data that they're collecting about women in the field, 384 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:57,440 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy nine, that Working Group on Women finally 385 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 1: became a standing committee and as a result of their work, 386 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:06,399 Speaker 1: members developed what was called the Baltimore Charter, which had 387 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 1: the goal of promoting a culture that would help both 388 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:14,119 Speaker 1: men and women realize their full potential in stem careers. 389 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 1: So the question that is what is that full potential 390 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 1: look like for astronomers. Today, we'll talk about that when 391 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 1: we come right back from a quick break and now 392 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 1: back to the show. So, Caroline, what does being an 393 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 1: astronomer entailed today? I mean, is it? Have we learned 394 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,640 Speaker 1: everything there is to know about the stars? I mean, 395 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,320 Speaker 1: certainly not. You know, as we mentioned in our first 396 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:46,440 Speaker 1: episode on women in Astronomy, some major discoveries were still 397 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:50,200 Speaker 1: being made in the nineteen nineties, back when that Women's 398 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,720 Speaker 1: Committee was developing charters to encourage people in the field 399 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:57,919 Speaker 1: of astronomy. We still have so much to discover. But 400 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: the field of astronomy itself is RelA totally small, and 401 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 1: this is coming from numbers from the Bureau of Labor 402 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 1: and Statistics. There are only about six thousand professional astronomers 403 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 1: in North America, and it's super competitive because there are 404 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 1: a hundred and fifty North American job openings per year 405 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,920 Speaker 1: and there are one hundred and twenty five pH d 406 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:19,879 Speaker 1: grads per year, so a lot of people vying for 407 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 1: not that many jobs. Yeah, and if you do get 408 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:26,359 Speaker 1: a job, though, it pays pretty well to be an astronomer. 409 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 1: In twelve, the median pay was one hundred and six 410 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:34,960 Speaker 1: thousand dollars per year or per hour. If you're you know, 411 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:36,879 Speaker 1: wanted to keep track of it that way, And the 412 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:40,960 Speaker 1: kinds of things obviously that you'd be studying include planets, stars, galaxies, 413 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,119 Speaker 1: and other celestial bodies. And there's all sorts of equipment 414 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:47,959 Speaker 1: that's involved as well, including ground based equipment like radio 415 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:52,040 Speaker 1: and optical telescopes, as well as space based equipment such 416 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 1: as the Hubble space telescope, which a lot of listeners 417 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 1: have probably heard of. And you generally are either making 418 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 1: observations are working on theory. So what are some of 419 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 1: the modern observations that astronomers today have been making, Caroline, Well, 420 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 1: it's not so much that astronomers are looking through a 421 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,880 Speaker 1: telescope and sweeping the sky, as the ladies in our 422 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,639 Speaker 1: first episode did very often, but rather use computers and 423 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:24,399 Speaker 1: super sophisticated telescopes that can detect radiation other than visible lights, 424 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:28,360 Speaker 1: such as gamma rays or radio waves, and rather than 425 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,639 Speaker 1: making direct observations by sweeping the sky with a telescope, 426 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 1: theoretical astronomers typically use data from observational astronomers to develop theories. 427 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 1: And we should also mention too that telescope technology has 428 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 1: also spawned numerous medical applications, so there are day to 429 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: day repercussions of the work that astronomers are doing, and 430 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 1: typically they're employed at colleges, universities, and professional schools. UM. 431 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 1: They're also involved in research and development in the physical 432 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 1: engineer in life sciences. And of course if you are 433 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 1: in aspiring astronomer astrophysicists, you can get a job with 434 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 1: the federal government. You can work BANASA or the Department 435 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 1: of Defense. Right, only of astronomers and astrophysicists end up 436 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 1: in those cushy, high paying federal government jobs like NASA. 437 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 1: Most of them are at colleges and stuff. But alright, 438 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 1: so now that we've laid out what astronomers are doing today, 439 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:34,040 Speaker 1: that they're using big supercomputeras what does it look like 440 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:38,399 Speaker 1: out there for ladies today in astronomy. Well, astronomy is 441 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:42,479 Speaker 1: usually highlighted as a stem field that is friendlier to women, 442 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 1: which seems ironic considering you know, the Jostle and Bell 443 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 1: Burnell stories and the other ones that we've shared. Um. 444 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,720 Speaker 1: But by and large it does tend to attract more 445 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:58,800 Speaker 1: women than other stem fields. But it's still suffers similar 446 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 1: leaky pipe line issues as we see all over stems. 447 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:05,919 Speaker 1: So when it comes to the pipeline issue. It's usually 448 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:10,160 Speaker 1: the same old tale of women starting out they're interested 449 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,879 Speaker 1: in physics, are taking the courses and their bachelor's degrees, 450 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 1: but they don't make it to the PhD level. And 451 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 1: then if they make it a PhD level, there's a 452 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 1: drop off after that as well. Right, And a lot 453 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:25,160 Speaker 1: of these numbers, though, can be deceiving. It really depends 454 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 1: on what phase of a woman's science career or astronomy 455 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 1: career you're looking at. Because we mentioned that uh, physics 456 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,119 Speaker 1: and physics bachelor's degrees were important to talk about because 457 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 1: typically that can lead then to astronomy um. And so 458 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,960 Speaker 1: when you look back at middle school and high school, 459 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 1: girls make up half of physics students, but that number 460 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 1: definitely drops way off in high school and definitely in 461 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 1: higher education. But you also have to keep in mind 462 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,600 Speaker 1: that most high school students or a lot of high 463 00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 1: school students have to take the like physics or chemistry 464 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 1: or whatever, and so it's just important to keep in 465 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 1: mind that, well, yes, there is a pipeline issue. Sometimes 466 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 1: you just have to remember that certain things are inflating 467 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 1: numbers and parts of the pipeline. So if we look 468 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 1: at higher education and This number is coming from two 469 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 1: thousand three, so it's a little bit dated. But women 470 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 1: earn of physics bachelor's degrees and forty percent of astronomy 471 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:31,960 Speaker 1: bachelor's degree. So you see there about astronomy bachelor's degree, 472 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,720 Speaker 1: so hey, we're earning almost half of them. Well done. Also, 473 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 1: I can do simple math um. Now, when it comes 474 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 1: to the faculty and stand alone astronomy departments, women make 475 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 1: up only four percent of faculty members versus ten percent 476 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:52,040 Speaker 1: in physics departments, so you might there too have issues 477 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 1: going on with the whole visibility factor. You don't see 478 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 1: many women at the front of the classroom in physics 479 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 1: and astronomy. Yeah, but there is good news and bad 480 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 1: news when it comes to women teaching and higher education. 481 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 1: Women are being hired into the professorial ranks at better 482 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,960 Speaker 1: than their availability rate, but the proportion of women in 483 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 1: temporary faculty positions and like assistant professor positions is even higher. 484 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 1: So there's still a little bit of echoes of pickerings 485 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 1: women where well, it's great that they're getting into this field. 486 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 1: Many of them are still filling the lower positions, but M. I. T. S. 487 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 1: Claude Cannas are has found that women were tenured actually 488 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 1: at a slightly higher rate than men, and that the 489 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 1: clock stopping so to speak, to have or adopted child 490 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,960 Speaker 1: actually did not affect women's likelihood of being tenured. That 491 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 1: is so surprised. That is so surprising because whenever it 492 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,720 Speaker 1: comes to women in academia in general, it's usually that 493 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 1: whole tenure track of having to not only teach, but 494 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 1: also do the research and get published and just all 495 00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 1: of the hours involved in that that requires to get 496 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 1: ten years is often cited as the you know, primary 497 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 1: reason for that that drop off in women. UM. But 498 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 1: when it comes to some gender imparity in physics and astronomy, 499 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 1: the US is not alone in this. Most countries, in fact, 500 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 1: award less than a quarter of their first level university 501 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 1: physics degrees to women, and most grant less than of 502 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 1: their physics PhDs to women. But there is a PhD 503 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 1: that we need to mention. Astrophysicist Meg Garry, who has 504 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 1: been one leading the charge in terms of calling for 505 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 1: more recognition of issues affecting women in STEM. How do 506 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:44,880 Speaker 1: we close the leaky pipeline? Obviously providing visibility as a 507 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:49,520 Speaker 1: female astrophysicist, UM, she has echoed what knasar Is said 508 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 1: in terms of there's a lot of research showing that 509 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 1: pipeline and underrepresentation issues aren't necessarily about complications from having 510 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:02,240 Speaker 1: a family, or even conscious discriminatory actions, or obviously anything 511 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 1: to do with innate ability. So Urie has pondered and 512 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 1: written about a lot what is the issue, what's going on? 513 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:12,680 Speaker 1: And something that comes up a lot for her is 514 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:17,800 Speaker 1: unconscious gender bias. Yeah, and she points to several studies 515 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 1: that have shown that work associated with a woman's name 516 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 1: isn't as highly rated as that associated with a man's name. 517 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,760 Speaker 1: She also mentions that in letters of recommendation, women are 518 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 1: more likely to get words like reliable, while a man 519 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 1: will be deemed brilliant, and also the fact that women 520 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 1: and men don't necessarily respond to mentors coaching styles the same. 521 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 1: She also points out that the way that we're socialized 522 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,080 Speaker 1: could have a lot to do with it, as I 523 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 1: mean as women, not just as like people or astronomers 524 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:51,560 Speaker 1: or whoever. She instructs women to own your ambition. She writes, 525 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 1: it really scares me the way young women dial back 526 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 1: their aspirations because they're anticipating that they'll have to make compromises. 527 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:00,880 Speaker 1: Believe me, the young men aren't doing that. Okay, So 528 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 1: when's the last time we heard that? Kristen from Cheryl 529 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:08,520 Speaker 1: Sandberg and lean in Yeah, it sounds very lean in e. 530 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 1: She talks a lot about women needing to work at 531 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 1: something they love and something that they can publish high 532 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 1: impact papers about so they can really make their mark 533 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:22,520 Speaker 1: in that community because it is a small and prestigious community, 534 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,000 Speaker 1: and also developed connections with other women in science. There's 535 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 1: a lot of networking going on intentionally among women in 536 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:33,160 Speaker 1: these STEM fields and it's not just an issue though. 537 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 1: When it comes to representation of people in STEM, it's 538 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:40,200 Speaker 1: not just women. There's also a lot of attention that's 539 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:45,480 Speaker 1: been paid recently to ethnic minorities as well as LGBT 540 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:50,360 Speaker 1: representation um because, for instance, from nineteen seventy six to 541 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:54,600 Speaker 1: two thousand three, only thirty five African American women in fifties, 542 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 1: seven Hispanic women earned physics PhDs. From nineteen seventy six 543 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 1: to two thousand three, and just seven African American women 544 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:07,960 Speaker 1: and twelve Hispanic women earned astronomy PhDs. And honestly, all 545 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:10,160 Speaker 1: of the women that we have highlighted up to this 546 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:14,440 Speaker 1: point Caroline have been white. We should acknowledge that right 547 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:17,440 Speaker 1: and speaking about boosting the representation of many types of 548 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,640 Speaker 1: people in astronomy and having a greater amount of diversity. 549 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:25,279 Speaker 1: Vanderbilt University is hosting the inaugural Inclusive Astronomy Meeting in 550 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:29,759 Speaker 1: June of this year, and their mission statement says that 551 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:34,759 Speaker 1: Inclusive Astronomy will serve as a welcoming, strategic venue to 552 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,960 Speaker 1: advocate and provide resources for the inclusion in the astronomy 553 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:42,160 Speaker 1: community of people of color, lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, intersex, 554 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:46,720 Speaker 1: queer or questioning people, people with disabilities, women, and anyone 555 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:50,400 Speaker 1: who holds more than one of these identities. Yeah, and 556 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:52,480 Speaker 1: on top of that, we should mention that the American 557 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:57,440 Speaker 1: Astronomical Society has a working group on lgbt i Q 558 00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:02,080 Speaker 1: equality to raise awareness and fight discriminations. So it does 559 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 1: sound like there is progress being made in terms of representation, 560 00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:11,239 Speaker 1: of paying attention to these issues, of trying to level 561 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:16,000 Speaker 1: the playing field. Um, so that bickerings women can finally 562 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:20,560 Speaker 1: be a past era of astronomy. And I feel like 563 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 1: a good place for us to close out this conversation, 564 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:27,879 Speaker 1: Caroline would be a couple of living Lady astronomers out there, 565 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:30,759 Speaker 1: because there is one thing that jumped out to me 566 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:35,640 Speaker 1: in thinking about astronomy and astrophysics today when it comes 567 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:40,000 Speaker 1: to women. There are no Lady carl Sagan's or Neil 568 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:42,760 Speaker 1: de grass Tyson's, and yet there are these women doing 569 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:46,520 Speaker 1: incredible work. I think that we need a woman astronomer 570 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:49,800 Speaker 1: rock star at the level of Neil de grass Tyson, 571 00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 1: whom I love nothing against Neil de grass Tyson at all, um, 572 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:57,200 Speaker 1: But who are who are a couple of potential Neil 573 00:35:57,200 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 1: de grass Tyson's. I mean, we've mentioned Meg Jury all 574 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,360 Speaker 1: ready and all of the incredible work she's doing in 575 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:06,799 Speaker 1: terms of writing about basically diversity she's in astronomy. But 576 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:09,280 Speaker 1: one big name we should mentioned too is Sydney C. Wolf. 577 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:11,759 Speaker 1: She was the first woman to serve as director of 578 00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,360 Speaker 1: a major U S observatory and to have led the 579 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:18,720 Speaker 1: construction of six premier telescopes. She served as the director 580 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:23,360 Speaker 1: of the National Optical Astronomy Observatory in Arizona from seven 581 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:26,920 Speaker 1: to two thousand and she helped develop world class observatory 582 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:30,880 Speaker 1: facilities in both Arizona and Chile, and so she served 583 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:35,319 Speaker 1: as also the American Astronomical Society president in nine, not 584 00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:38,040 Speaker 1: bad for a group that felt it needed an entire 585 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:42,759 Speaker 1: committee to examine women's role in the organization. She's the 586 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:46,319 Speaker 1: founding editor also of the Astronomy Education Review, and her 587 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:50,799 Speaker 1: research on stellar atmospheres and the evolution, formation, and composition 588 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:55,240 Speaker 1: of stars is internationally recognized and Caroline. Since we started 589 00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:58,960 Speaker 1: off the podcast talking about comets, a good place to 590 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:03,120 Speaker 1: bring the podcast full circle is Caroline Shoemaker for a 591 00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:06,440 Speaker 1: couple of reasons. First of all, Shoemaker holds the record 592 00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:10,200 Speaker 1: for the most common discoveries get ready for this, folks. 593 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:15,120 Speaker 1: She's found more than eight hundred asteroids and thirty two comments. 594 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:18,400 Speaker 1: And with her husband Jean, she received the Written House 595 00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 1: Medal in and the Scientists of the Year Award in 596 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:27,960 Speaker 1: and NASA awarded her the Exceptional Scientific Achievement Medal in 597 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:34,680 Speaker 1: and her story is fascinating because she didn't get into 598 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:40,200 Speaker 1: astronomy on a professional level until she was fifty one. First, 599 00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:42,400 Speaker 1: she was a stay at home mom and she always 600 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:46,240 Speaker 1: was interested in her husband, Jean's work, and he often 601 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:50,520 Speaker 1: looped her into field observations and work that he was doing. 602 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:54,839 Speaker 1: But it wasn't until after that phase of being a 603 00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:58,600 Speaker 1: full time mom that she's then transitioned into being this 604 00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:03,280 Speaker 1: incredible astronomer. And she worked with her husband Jean until 605 00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:06,040 Speaker 1: he was killed in a tragic car accident at a 606 00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:11,040 Speaker 1: California observatory. So no matter what age you are, if 607 00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:14,399 Speaker 1: you're listening to this podcast, it's not too late if 608 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,680 Speaker 1: you're interested in astronomy. And I love this story though, 609 00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:22,120 Speaker 1: because I mean it really to me sums up so 610 00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:27,120 Speaker 1: much of women's history with astronomy because she's kind of 611 00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,120 Speaker 1: it goes back to the buttons and breakfasts this year 612 00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:32,759 Speaker 1: that we were talking about in Part one of that 613 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:36,000 Speaker 1: concern of well, if women get too involved in astronomy, 614 00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:38,520 Speaker 1: then who's going to take care of the home? Well, 615 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:41,480 Speaker 1: Carolin Schuebaker was like, I'll just do all of it. Yeah, 616 00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:45,200 Speaker 1: well yeah, And it also perfectly illustrates our our themes, 617 00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:47,160 Speaker 1: one of our themes from the first episode, which is 618 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:50,880 Speaker 1: that so many women throughout history have gotten into stem fields, 619 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:56,080 Speaker 1: stem jobs, stem hobbies and pathtimes thanks to the influence 620 00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:58,200 Speaker 1: of a father or a husband or whatever. And so 621 00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:01,759 Speaker 1: here you have a very modern woman, Carol and Shoemaker, 622 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:06,480 Speaker 1: who is getting not only involved in astronomy but completely 623 00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:09,480 Speaker 1: pursuing it passionately as a career and making all these 624 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:13,359 Speaker 1: discoveries in the wake of her husband's death. Yeah, So 625 00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:16,799 Speaker 1: with that, I hope that there's some astronomers listening. We 626 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:19,560 Speaker 1: would love to hear from you, or people who are 627 00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:24,600 Speaker 1: just amateur stargazers, or any folks involved in STEM. We 628 00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,040 Speaker 1: want to know your thoughts. Mom Stuff at how stuff 629 00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:30,640 Speaker 1: works dot com. Oh, and if you have any suggestions 630 00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:34,600 Speaker 1: for the lady equivalence of Vanil de Grass, Teyson and 631 00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:39,080 Speaker 1: Carl Sagan. Really curious to know who your nominations would 632 00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:42,400 Speaker 1: be for Lady Astronomer rock stars Mom Stubb at house 633 00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:44,640 Speaker 1: stuffworks dot com. Again is our email address. You can 634 00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:48,000 Speaker 1: also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook, 635 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:49,680 Speaker 1: and we've got a couple of messages to share with 636 00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:56,719 Speaker 1: you right now. Al Right, I have a letter here 637 00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:01,920 Speaker 1: from Steven following up on our history of Underpant's episode. Uh. 638 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:04,319 Speaker 1: Steven says, I found it interesting how you mentioned that 639 00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,600 Speaker 1: women's equivalent for men's clothing, we're not only made more 640 00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:10,400 Speaker 1: feminine through frills or lace, but also through terms like 641 00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:14,120 Speaker 1: lady alls instead of overalls. As a guy, I've noticed 642 00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:17,080 Speaker 1: the same phenomenon with men's equivalent for what are considered 643 00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:21,440 Speaker 1: traditionally feminine things, such as guyliner for eyeliner, man purse 644 00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:24,200 Speaker 1: for any bag a guy carries, and man's scaping for 645 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,320 Speaker 1: his hair trimming choices. I carry a messenger bag is 646 00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:29,399 Speaker 1: my everyday carry all, and I prefer to just call 647 00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:32,759 Speaker 1: it my bag or confront the occasional jokes directly and 648 00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:36,160 Speaker 1: just call it my purse. It's amazing just how uncomfortable 649 00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:38,560 Speaker 1: people can get when you start stepping over the perceived 650 00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:41,520 Speaker 1: gender lines, and how far they'll push to keep everyone 651 00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:45,960 Speaker 1: pinned into gender roles and expectations. Me I'll keep proudly 652 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:49,760 Speaker 1: flaunting my purse and wearing eyeliner wherever I go. Thanks 653 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:52,120 Speaker 1: for all the work you put into the podcast, and 654 00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:54,719 Speaker 1: thank you Stephen for writing in Well. I've got a 655 00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:58,440 Speaker 1: letter here from Olga also about our history of Women's 656 00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:02,520 Speaker 1: Underwear episode and the subject line is women's underwear in 657 00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:07,640 Speaker 1: nineteenth century Serbia. So here we go, Algar Rights. I'm 658 00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:10,920 Speaker 1: a cultural anthropology student in Serbia and we had a 659 00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:14,080 Speaker 1: Serbian material culture class in which we discussed clothing, among 660 00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:17,280 Speaker 1: other things, nineteenth century peasant clothing in the Balkan region 661 00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:20,759 Speaker 1: is influenced by both Western fashion, which came through the 662 00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:24,880 Speaker 1: city folk, and Eastern fashion because most of these countries 663 00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:26,919 Speaker 1: were part of the Ottoman Empire for a long time, 664 00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:30,279 Speaker 1: which I find endlessly fascinating. As a result of this 665 00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:33,799 Speaker 1: kind of cultural collision, there were some mixed feelings about 666 00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:38,239 Speaker 1: the transition to underwear. Turkish women traditionally wore pants, under 667 00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:41,120 Speaker 1: skirts that were split in the front, and vests instead 668 00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:45,479 Speaker 1: of constricting corsets. Serbian peasants also wore vest instead. Of course, 669 00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:49,880 Speaker 1: it's no underwear of any kind except sometimes as chamis 670 00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:53,000 Speaker 1: and sheer white skirts that fell just below the knee, 671 00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:56,120 Speaker 1: And because that didn't cover anything at all, most parts 672 00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:59,120 Speaker 1: of the country covered it with another article of clothing, 673 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:02,920 Speaker 1: mostly aprons, and peasant clothing was highly symbolic, so if 674 00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:05,960 Speaker 1: you wove a certain color through your woolen apron while 675 00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:08,279 Speaker 1: you were making it, you could express all sorts of 676 00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:11,319 Speaker 1: personal feelings and social status is like a certain color 677 00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:15,359 Speaker 1: might indicate marital status. So anyway, when the city women 678 00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:17,800 Speaker 1: started wearing underwear, the country folks all is something that 679 00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:21,600 Speaker 1: only rich women, women in sports and prostitutes might wear. 680 00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:24,839 Speaker 1: And also since poor country women didn't get to rest 681 00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:27,200 Speaker 1: while they got their period, they would have to work 682 00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:30,279 Speaker 1: through it. Meanwhile, I'm down for the count for at 683 00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:33,040 Speaker 1: least two days when aunt flow comes along. And don't 684 00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:35,440 Speaker 1: even get me started on dealing with pregnancy in the 685 00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:39,319 Speaker 1: nineteenth century. Anyway, I love listening to you people talk 686 00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:43,240 Speaker 1: about cool things. Keep doing what you're doing, So thanks. 687 00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:48,239 Speaker 1: I'll go for that insight into nineteenth century serbian underwear. 688 00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:50,200 Speaker 1: And now I kind of wish that I had a 689 00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:54,680 Speaker 1: symbolic woolen apron. So if you have any costume history 690 00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:57,200 Speaker 1: or facts about astronomers, or anything else you'd like to 691 00:42:57,200 --> 00:42:59,840 Speaker 1: share with us, moms stubbt house. Stuffworks dot Com is 692 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:02,080 Speaker 1: our email address and for links to all of our 693 00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:04,840 Speaker 1: social media as well as all of our blogs, videos, 694 00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:07,840 Speaker 1: and podcasts, including this one with all of our sources 695 00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:11,440 Speaker 1: so you can follow along. Head on over to stuff 696 00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:17,680 Speaker 1: mom Never Told You dot com for more on this 697 00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:20,560 Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics. Isn't how stuff Works dot 698 00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:28,960 Speaker 1: com