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Speaker 1: This episode of Thinking Sideways is not brought to you

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Speaker 1: by Porcupines, who are also blue artists. Instead, it's brought

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Speaker 1: be more like Pitney Bows, but you got the point.

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Speaker 1: PB dot com slash sideways terms apply Sea side for details.

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Speaker 1: Hey guys, welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways the

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Speaker 1: podcast I Am Devin, joined as always by Steve and

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Speaker 1: Joe the Boys. Today we're gonna talk about God. Today

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about a mystery. Yes, it's actually

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Speaker 1: a mysterious disappearance that happened on Christmas Day. The disappearance

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Speaker 1: was of a postman in Ireland was, by the way,

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Speaker 1: a big deal in Ireland still actually is a little

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Speaker 1: bit of Yeah. I saw actually an article from two

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Speaker 1: thousand twelve they were gonna like go search for him

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Speaker 1: yet again. Yeah, yeah, I still haven't found him them.

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Speaker 1: This episode was actually suggested by a number of people. Kira,

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Speaker 1: also Mary and Kilkenny and David were the three names

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Speaker 1: that we actually bothered to write down before where we

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Speaker 1: started just saying yeah, it's on the list. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: feel like three of a good number. Listen, We're better

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Speaker 1: than we were at one time when we were so

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Speaker 1: overwhelmed with emails that I would go into the list

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Speaker 1: and I would find the date and the method of

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Speaker 1: the suggestion in the story name and links and not

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Speaker 1: who had suggested it, because somehow we forgot. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's not so much of a mess anymore, I don't forget.

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Speaker 1: I checked. So let's start with our postman, shall we. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the missing Postman is No, that's the wrong postman. That

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Speaker 1: was z post but not the missing I literally just

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Speaker 1: didn't even know what you were talking about for a minute.

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Speaker 1: Once I referenced you, crap, Well, it's just the old

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Speaker 1: and awful anyway. Our postman's name was Larry Griffin. He

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Speaker 1: was born in Waterford, Ireland in eighteen eighty. He served

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Speaker 1: with the British Army from eighteen to nineteen o seven,

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Speaker 1: and he spent most of his first army stint in India.

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Speaker 1: And then he was discharged and married a woman named

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Speaker 1: Mary makes sounds Mary Mary ye. And then when World

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Speaker 1: War One started he re enlisted. A lot of people

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Speaker 1: did as a lot of people did. He was honorably

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Speaker 1: discharged in June of nineteen sixteen, having suffered some pretty

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Speaker 1: bad injuries. His arm was damaged. Whatever that maybe a

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Speaker 1: little damage. It sounds like he had use of it. Really, yeah.

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Speaker 1: I suspect it was, you know, lack of I think

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Speaker 1: it was a loss of motion, range of would suspect

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Speaker 1: something like that. I think something blew up beside him

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Speaker 1: because his arm was damaged. Part of his ear and

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Speaker 1: many of his teeth from one side of his face

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Speaker 1: were missing. Some kind of ordinance probably went off near him.

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Speaker 1: Suspect pictures of them, and maybe these were taken before

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Speaker 1: the war. I don't know, but he looks he looks okay. No,

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Speaker 1: I think it was. I think it was mostly I

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Speaker 1: think it was. That was the major reason. They don't

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Speaker 1: care if your ear looks ugly, and if your teeth

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Speaker 1: are all messed I think they do care if you

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Speaker 1: can hear out of but if you messed up looking yeah,

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Speaker 1: but still functional, they don't care. But I think that

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Speaker 1: the probably limited arms was the issue nextually by World

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Speaker 1: War One standards, he got off pretty light. He did

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Speaker 1: he really light, and he actually was given some awards

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Speaker 1: in nineteen eighteen for his bravery. So whatever happened, it

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Speaker 1: was a brave act. I took out He took out

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Speaker 1: a German machine gun nest just with one hand. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: he just threw his arm, just kidding, using rocks. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: After his discharge, he got a job as a postman,

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Speaker 1: moving to kill mc thomas with his wife and three

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Speaker 1: of his children. He had additional children. Actually don't know

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Speaker 1: how many children total he had. I think it was

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Speaker 1: four too, but it's kind of just this. Nobody really

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Speaker 1: cares apparently, but one of his children was working I

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Speaker 1: believe in England, and then the other three lived with

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Speaker 1: them in um what we're now going to call kill

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Speaker 1: Mac for the rest of the episode. Actually that's actually

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Speaker 1: the abbreviation. That's what all people call. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: if you lived in that town, would you pronounce the

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Speaker 1: entire freedom name every time they call it. Kill Mac. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: in those days, for God's sakes. So in those days,

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Speaker 1: it was apparently customary for postmen to deliver mail on

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Speaker 1: Christmas Day, though often they were given great hospitality for

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Speaker 1: doing their job. On that day. They would have been

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Speaker 1: offered meals and drinks at pretty much every house they

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Speaker 1: called on. There was some discussion about whether or not

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Speaker 1: it was actually postman would call for tips, but I

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Speaker 1: believe it was hospitality that they received. But people like

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Speaker 1: rubbish men and other things that collected we would expect

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Speaker 1: tips on Christmas Day, which I think is actually even

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Speaker 1: here in America today, tipped their tip the amen in

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Speaker 1: the holidays. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, present cookies and stuff

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Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, Larry, it is reported had at least

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Speaker 1: two different dinners on Christmas night at two separate houses,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of drinks. So I want to point

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Speaker 1: out the number of meals that this guy has had

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Speaker 1: because to me, it his state later on as it's

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Speaker 1: described is a bit confusing. It depends on who you ask, well, actually,

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Speaker 1: but for the amount that he has eaten, I it

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Speaker 1: makes me always question his state of inebriation. Well, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think you can get drunk even if you've had

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Speaker 1: a ton of food. I suspect that he was also

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Speaker 1: drinking while he was eating. It wasn't just sitting down

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Speaker 1: to a meal, you know, I get that. My point

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Speaker 1: is he wasn't on an mp stomach just knocking back shot.

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Speaker 1: So that's why, absolutely, I just wanted, as I always do,

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Speaker 1: I just want to throw that out there so people

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Speaker 1: keep that in mind. I think that might maybe that

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Speaker 1: the people of Strade Valley probably after this just chipped

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Speaker 1: in and got the postman a bottle for Christmas, probably

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Speaker 1: get to send it home with him. So actually, so

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Speaker 1: actually that brings up a good point. Let's let's talk

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Speaker 1: about this a little bit. We Larry lived in kill

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Speaker 1: Mac but his postman route was actually in Stradberry Root

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Speaker 1: postal Root. What did I say, postman? I think it

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Speaker 1: was actually and he has stops in between also, but

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Speaker 1: I think but it was all in the Stradbally area. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and and and so his house was about six miles

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Speaker 1: or ten kilometers away. It was eight miles. Uh strad

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Speaker 1: Valley is eight miles away from kill Mack. And so

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Speaker 1: they bicycle it's so bad. I mean, you can walk

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Speaker 1: a walk a mile in twenty minutes. It all depends

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Speaker 1: on whether it's like level or uphill. That kind of

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Speaker 1: thing is pretty level anyway, it doesn't really matter that much.

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Speaker 1: What we know about Larry and what he did on

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Speaker 1: that day is Christmas Morning. He got it up and

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Speaker 1: went to Christmas Mass like most Catholics do. Then he

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Speaker 1: delivered a few gifts to local families and kids that

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Speaker 1: I think that his family was friends with, and then

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Speaker 1: around noon he put on his uniform, got on his

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Speaker 1: standard issue bike and took off for strad Valley. He

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Speaker 1: would have been expected back around seven pm, maybe a

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Speaker 1: little later, depending on what happened, well, depending on the

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Speaker 1: nature of the evening, you know, drinking and eating and

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Speaker 1: stuff like that. However, that night it started to snow.

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Speaker 1: So when Mary, his aforementioned wife, saw that he just

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Speaker 1: wasn't home and it was snowing, and she just kind

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Speaker 1: of thought, well, he probably just stayed over in Strade

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Speaker 1: Valley because it's hard to ride a bicycle, and he

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Speaker 1: had probably and she knew he had probably been drinking,

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Speaker 1: and he probably just said, you know, it's safer for

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Speaker 1: me to just stay here than to make the trek back.

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Speaker 1: That's a logical thing to do, of course. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: you know this is pre cell phone, so it's not

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Speaker 1: as though he could have just picked up a phone

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Speaker 1: and called her. She actually, yeah, probably didn't even have

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Speaker 1: a phone in the house, and if it did, it

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Speaker 1: was a party line and whatever. Anyway, she probably just

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Speaker 1: said whatever, he'll be home tomorrow morning. After this all

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Speaker 1: blows over the next morning. However, at about seven o'clock,

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Speaker 1: I think it was a local, a man local to

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Speaker 1: Strade Valley. I don't know. Maybe he was walking on

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Speaker 1: the road between Strade Valley and Killmack and found a

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Speaker 1: postman's bike laid carefully a few feet off the road. Larry,

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Speaker 1: can I ask what does the description? Because I've never

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Speaker 1: I've always just seen laid careful that is the description.

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Speaker 1: What do you think that means? I think it means

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Speaker 1: not haphazardly tossed and doesn't look like somebody had just

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Speaker 1: fallen off of it, that they had been it. Maybe

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Speaker 1: they had been walking it and carefully laid it over

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Speaker 1: on side, because it didn't a kickstand. Again, I never

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Speaker 1: found a good description, so I was curious. I'm just

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Speaker 1: making an assumption. And you know, the thing is is

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Speaker 1: I would assume, given that it was a postman's bike,

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Speaker 1: I would have assumed that it would have a kickstand

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Speaker 1: on it. But you know, they clearly didn't use it

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Speaker 1: for this. You know, I don't know when the kickstand

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Speaker 1: was invented. I know I don't either. This is this

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Speaker 1: actually kind of the kickstand was invented pretty early on

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Speaker 1: when they had those stupid bicycles with the giant front

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Speaker 1: and rear wheels, and the only way that Parkham was

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Speaker 1: to stand him. You just had a servant run behind you.

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Speaker 1: That's actually, but it's actually I kind of wonder if

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Speaker 1: it stopped snowing early on in the snow turned to rain,

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Speaker 1: if maybe, because I mean, otherwise you'd see tracks and

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Speaker 1: stuff like that, like the tracks, you know, if somebody

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Speaker 1: rode the back up or walked the bike up and

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Speaker 1: then laid it down there, walked away and kept on

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Speaker 1: going towards killing back, or walked back. I have I

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Speaker 1: have no idea. There's no mention of any kind of

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Speaker 1: tracks or anything like that, so I assume it must

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Speaker 1: just stopped snowing. Must have anyway, Larry, Larry was nowhere

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Speaker 1: to be found and remains so to this day. The

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Speaker 1: local man is unnamed, but he reported the bike to

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Speaker 1: the police in Strade Valley, not in Killmack. I'm not again,

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Speaker 1: I'm not. It's all local police, is how it's always named.

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Speaker 1: And I know that the police department that did the

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Speaker 1: most of the investigation was based in Strade Valley and

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Speaker 1: I don't know if they also served kill mac and

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Speaker 1: other regions. But yeah, but we're going to call police

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Speaker 1: officers because it's easier. But so they were the first

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Speaker 1: people to receive this report that the bike and Larry,

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Speaker 1: it's my understanding, was kind of the only postman that

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Speaker 1: served that area, so they just thought, well, it's probably

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Speaker 1: Larry's bike. I don't know if it had a name

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Speaker 1: on it or something like that. It's possible it probably

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Speaker 1: actually had some kind of number on it because it's

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Speaker 1: a postal issue. It's post office bike. Yeah, it's kind

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Speaker 1: of like I would imagine it's got something identifying it

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Speaker 1: as opposed to like, well it had his bags and

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Speaker 1: the somewhere on it, almost like a license plate, kind

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Speaker 1: of not necessarily a license plate, but something they identified.

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Speaker 1: I think in those days that wasn't a relaxed about

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Speaker 1: that stuff Ireland back. But either way, it doesn't really matter.

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Speaker 1: That they probably had his name like scratched into, you know,

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Speaker 1: into a nail bag or something. I don't know. Well,

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Speaker 1: so the police decided, while we're going to do a search.

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Speaker 1: I have seen reports that there were police and postmen

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Speaker 1: and a bunch of local farmers civilians, like they're like

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Speaker 1: almost a hundred people or more. We're looking for Larry

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Speaker 1: that day, on the day after Christmas Day, which in

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Speaker 1: Ireland is St. St. Stephen's Day, my favorite day because

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Speaker 1: it's my day. State on that day, some other Steve. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: not a state, you know what, I'm in a state

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Speaker 1: on that day, which yeah, apparently so between strad Valley

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Speaker 1: and kill Mack is mostly marshlands, big bogs. If you've

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Speaker 1: listened to our for instance, Tunguska episode, you know those

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Speaker 1: bogs can be quite deep often. They started the people

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Speaker 1: initially kind of thought that maybe in his drunken state,

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Speaker 1: he had accidentally fallen in, so they started looking in

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Speaker 1: that area, but they there was no trace of him

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Speaker 1: at all anywhere. When they couldn't find Larry on they

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Speaker 1: the investigators, the police department there decided that maybe they

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Speaker 1: should report this to their higher ups. So they did.

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Speaker 1: They called Chief Superintendent Harry O'Mara to let him know

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Speaker 1: that Larry had gone missing from He was based out

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Speaker 1: of Waterford, which I guess would have been the local

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Speaker 1: head brass office, county seat or something like that. It

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Speaker 1: was Waterford County. His first act was to travel to

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Speaker 1: strad Boy to question the police who had been investigating.

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Speaker 1: And there they were named officers Delay, Frawley, Murphy, and Sullivan.

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Speaker 1: They are the main named police officers. They might have

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Speaker 1: actually been the that is the entire bunch of Irish

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Speaker 1: names right there. I think. Actually they were the only

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Speaker 1: police officers in that area at the time, and they

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Speaker 1: were all but they were all based in right there

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Speaker 1: in strad Valley, Yeah, where our postman was last seen. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Frawley was married and so he lived actually above the

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Speaker 1: post office in straw BALI not in Kim Yeah, but

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Speaker 1: the others lived in an officers barracks, so they were

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Speaker 1: allowed to I don't know whatever. They all denied seeing

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Speaker 1: Larry leave the village, and also all of them, particularly Delay,

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Speaker 1: claimed the Larry was sober. I do love that the

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Speaker 1: officers were like, no, no, no, we didn't see Larry.

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Speaker 1: We didn't see him, but we know we was sober.

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Speaker 1: It was definitely sober. It's kind of funny when your

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Speaker 1: worst witnesses in the case what happened to be the

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Speaker 1: local police. Yeah, that is actually kind of what happened here.

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Speaker 1: Other people from strad Valley said that Larry was quote

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Speaker 1: unquote a bit jolly, a k a drunk While he

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Speaker 1: was investigating. O'Mara was also able to establish that Larry

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Speaker 1: had not made it to the houses at the end

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Speaker 1: of his route, which were on the road back to

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Speaker 1: kill Mac, nor was his bike on the road at

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Speaker 1: four am when a different local man was walking along

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Speaker 1: the road, presumably back to his house from the town.

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Speaker 1: This is Christmas at four am. Christmas. It's supposed to

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Speaker 1: take after Christmas, but at four am in an area

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Speaker 1: that probably doesn't have street lighting, it's really freaking dark.

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Speaker 1: But I'm amazed that they grabbed onto this. It couldn't

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Speaker 1: have been there at this time because this guy didn't

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Speaker 1: notice it. Well, so, yeah, that's fair. Certainly, I'm inclined

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Speaker 1: to believe that the conclusions that o'mera was able to

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Speaker 1: draw from his investigations were by and large correct, but

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Speaker 1: it's totally fair to say we don't know the situation.

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Speaker 1: You know, we there weren't street lights, right, but we

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Speaker 1: don't know if by that point the moon had come

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Speaker 1: out and it was glowing off of the snow and

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Speaker 1: it was super bright, and he was able to say

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Speaker 1: no with with the absolute certainty the bike was. You know,

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Speaker 1: we don't know, but so we The timeline then becomes

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Speaker 1: some time between four am and seven thirty am, Larry's

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Speaker 1: bike made it a few miles out of town, and

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Speaker 1: this point you aren't suspicious about something. You are far

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Speaker 1: behind where o'mera was at, because it started to become

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Speaker 1: very suspicious. Pretty much a lot of people, you know,

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Speaker 1: you know who else was suspicious? Yeah, well yeah, but

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Speaker 1: you know the local priest actually he was like doing

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Speaker 1: doing all Father Brown on these guys. He was actually, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're about to talk about that. We'll talk about that

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Speaker 1: actually right now. Okay. Yeah, So O'Meara continued to investigate

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Speaker 1: because he just kind of thought, you know, there was

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Speaker 1: some something we're going Yeah. On January six, local priest

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Speaker 1: named Father O'Shea told O'Meara that he should question a

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Speaker 1: sixteen year old boy from Stradbally named John Power. Seems

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Speaker 1: that the father had likely heard a confession from John

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Speaker 1: that made him think that the strad Bali police might

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Speaker 1: be covering something up. Turns out probably don't, don't. Emera

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Speaker 1: set up an interview with young John Powers at a

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Speaker 1: different police station that didn't include our named officers. Already,

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Speaker 1: he's not trusting these guys already. What he told Amara

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Speaker 1: was actually very different than the story that the police

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Speaker 1: officers had told him about that night. He told them

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Speaker 1: that he had witnessed a set of events on Christmas

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Speaker 1: Day night, and that there were three other people with

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Speaker 1: him that night who could corroborate his story. His story

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Speaker 1: was basically that he had been standing outside the window

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Speaker 1: of Wheeland's Pub with three these three other men who

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Speaker 1: we'll talk about a second. And by the way, sorry

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Speaker 1: to interrupt you. I just want to say, if you

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Speaker 1: get on Google Street you and go to Stread Valley,

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Speaker 1: there's like a center part of town, like a crossroads

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Speaker 1: right there. There's a little almost town squarish kind of

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Speaker 1: like a little parkas thing right there, and you'll see

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Speaker 1: all these places at a reference here. The Wheeland's Pub

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Speaker 1: is like right there that's still operational. Toe and still open.

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Speaker 1: And then right next to it is the post office

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Speaker 1: which garda policeman Frawley lived above, and then the hall

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Speaker 1: is like to the right and across the street, and

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Speaker 1: the police barracks is next door to that. Still anything away. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I'm probably in pretty much the same condition. Just that,

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Speaker 1: probably a little updating, but yeah, go ahead and just

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Speaker 1: go check it out. Yeah, because I I kind of

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Speaker 1: just assumed people would look it up. I didn't spend

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Speaker 1: a lot of time kind of describing where things aren't

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Speaker 1: relation to each other. So so anyway, the story that

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Speaker 1: John Powers told was that he had been standing outside

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Speaker 1: the window of Wheeland's Pub and with the other three

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Speaker 1: men from six pm on Christmas Day and then they

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Speaker 1: had seen Larry and Officer do Lay outside the post

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Speaker 1: office at six thirty and then they walked past them

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Speaker 1: and around the corner. Officer do Lay was pushing a

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Speaker 1: bike and Larry appeared to be really drunk um and sick.

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Speaker 1: Well sorry, the quote is trying to empty the contents

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Speaker 1: of his stomach, not Yeah. Power said that he remained

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Speaker 1: outside Wheeland's for another hour and he did not see

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Speaker 1: do Lay or Larry again. So based on this testimony

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Speaker 1: evidence whatever it is superintended. O'mea. O'Meara, of course goes

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Speaker 1: back to question Delay again, and Delay says at this

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Speaker 1: point basically, well, yeah, okay, fine, Yes, I was with

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Speaker 1: Larry that night, but he was definitely totally sober. And

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Speaker 1: I didn't tell you about it because I mean, I

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Speaker 1: didn't lie about it because no, I mean I didn't

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Speaker 1: tell you about it because I just didn't think it

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Speaker 1: was important. He literally literally the quote attributed to him

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Speaker 1: is that he said that it was of no consequence

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Speaker 1: that he had actually seen Larry on the night that

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Speaker 1: he disappeared, just that wasn't important, of course, not right,

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Speaker 1: to which anyone with a brain, of course, would say, well,

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Speaker 1: clearly you are hiding something more on this. Later, O'Mara

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Speaker 1: continued to investigate, and you know, the story around this

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Speaker 1: is really hazy because there's a lot of conflicting accounts

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Speaker 1: of things. This is my least favorite kind of story

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Speaker 1: because everybody is contradicting each other and changing and themselves. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: pretty much, any time anybody was interviewed, their story changed substantially.

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Speaker 1: These guys did not get together and get their stories

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Speaker 1: all alone, clearly not. But even the locals. They would

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Speaker 1: talk to locals and it seemed like their stories would shift.

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Speaker 1: We're going to talk about that in a little bit. Actually,

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Speaker 1: there's some pretty compelling testimony that they thought they could

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Speaker 1: get a conviction on that later when they called that person. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they called them into the to testify in court, and

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Speaker 1: they were like totally totally different stories. So we'll talk

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Speaker 1: about that in a second. But this haze is kind

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Speaker 1: of we're trying to clear it away a little bit,

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Speaker 1: and this is just one of many. It seems to

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Speaker 1: be pretty much accepted by both the research that I did.

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Speaker 1: It seems to be the most consistent story, and like

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Speaker 1: you know, reading around the internet, people pretty much agree

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Speaker 1: this is kind of the most consistent stuff. But again

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Speaker 1: it's not changes a million times. So the people who

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Speaker 1: lived in strad Valley were able to solidify the story

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Speaker 1: that it sounds like about after six pm, a clearly

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Speaker 1: drunk Larry had called had called on sorry head, visited

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Speaker 1: Officer Frawley's flat, the one that's above the post office, right, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and he had actually apparently showed up with Officer do

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Speaker 1: Lay where they all of them had some more alcohol.

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Speaker 1: More being an operative term on Christmas in that town.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's what I do all day, and I

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Speaker 1: have a lot of other stuff going on. There's not

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Speaker 1: much going on in that town. Yeah, And from there,

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Speaker 1: the three men went outside, and the officers, in their

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Speaker 1: clearly sober state, decided that Larry was too drunk to

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Speaker 1: go home. So apparently Officer Frawley went to Wheelands to

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Speaker 1: see if they could let him stay there for the night,

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Speaker 1: sleep it off, whatever, But he realized that he had

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Speaker 1: been followed into Wheelands by h Sergeant Gain. Yeah. Apparently

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Speaker 1: it sounds like the actual what's the word I'm thinking about,

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Speaker 1: the actual sergeant well in charge, in charge, But he

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Speaker 1: sounds like he was the more of the law and

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Speaker 1: order guy in the crowd there, the local police, and

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Speaker 1: so he was the one that that followed was by

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Speaker 1: the book. Well, so yeah, I think that I think

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Speaker 1: that Delay realized, oh my god, he's following me into

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Speaker 1: the pub. I better turn around and back right out

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Speaker 1: of because the people in the pub. Yeah. So from there,

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Speaker 1: apparently Officer Delay took Larry around the corner, which would

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Speaker 1: have been I guess when John and his friends saw

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Speaker 1: Larry with Delay, because there was a back door in

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Speaker 1: the back door into the pub, and they both went

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Speaker 1: into Wheeland's by the back door, and then neither of

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00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:45,240
Speaker 1: them were seemed to leave again. This, of course was

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Speaker 1: all news to O'Meara, because this version of the story

397
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Speaker 1: had not been presented to him yet, which yeah, which

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00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:54,520
Speaker 1: was a problem, because he had interviewed the police officers

399
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Speaker 1: now not once but twice and had not heard this

400
00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:01,439
Speaker 1: story from any of them, so that was probably a problem.

401
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 1: These guys are not supposed to do. This was the

402
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:06,800
Speaker 1: early days of what we call organized policing, you know,

403
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,320
Speaker 1: and it wasn't very organized. Well, it was early early

404
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:15,600
Speaker 1: days form the Irish Republic as well, so that might

405
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,879
Speaker 1: have part of it. They were not quite as professional

406
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 1: in those days. So pretty much it's accepted that Larry

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00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 1: was at Wheeland's that night drinking, and that the police

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00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 1: officers were probably a little bit involved in his disappearance,

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00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:37,280
Speaker 1: whether whether right, whether explicitly caused it or at least

410
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 1: they had seen him on that night, and clearly they

411
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 1: were trying to cover something up because they kept saying, no,

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00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 1: he was sober, or we just didn't even see him.

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Speaker 1: There are a few other details that I want to add,

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Speaker 1: but I actually want to just incorporate those into theories

415
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 1: or suspects or whatever we're in. Yeah, whatever whatever today. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so let's get into that. But first let's take a break.

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Speaker 1: Is this the point where we break out the guinness? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: What did the Holy Grail never Tit's tomb and Michael

419
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:17,720
Speaker 1: Rockefeller have in common? They're gone? But what happened where

420
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 1: they go? If you're a fan of this podcast, you

421
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 1: probably want to know, so join the search for the

422
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:26,400
Speaker 1: answer in Gone, a new mystery podcast that dives deep

423
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 1: into the past to explore historic disappearances and the theories

424
00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:33,359
Speaker 1: that they have spawned. If it disappeared, The hosts of

425
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,160
Speaker 1: Gone are looking and using in death research to figure

426
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 1: out what happened. Check out episodes on The Amber Room,

427
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:46,359
Speaker 1: dB Cooper, and What Happened to Oliver Cromwell's Head right Now.

428
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,640
Speaker 1: With a new episode coming out every Monday. You can

429
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 1: also expect to hear about Hamingways, Lost Manuscript, Black Beards, Treasure,

430
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:58,119
Speaker 1: and many more. Just visit Apple podcast, tune In, Spotify,

431
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:02,480
Speaker 1: Google Player, well wherever you go to get your podcasts

432
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 1: and search for Gone, That's Gone, g O n E,

433
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:10,920
Speaker 1: or visit podcast dot com slash Gone to start listening.

434
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:15,720
Speaker 1: Now that's podcast p A r C A st dot

435
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 1: com slash gone to listen. Now, all right, we have

436
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:26,959
Speaker 1: our whiskey and guinness and soda pop or whatever more whiskey.

437
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 1: Yeah cool, alright, cool, Let's talk about theories or suspects

438
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 1: or whatever, because it's kind of both. It's everything. It's

439
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 1: as let's aliens and yeah. So the first theory that

440
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:43,960
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about, just really briefly, because it's

441
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 1: kind like nobody really thinks has happened. But mine is

442
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,920
Speaker 1: that it was a personal accident caused by Larry on

443
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 1: the road with no other human intervention or cover up whatsoever.

444
00:26:54,520 --> 00:27:00,200
Speaker 1: He was drunk. He was drunk. Yeah, he uh delicately

445
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:04,359
Speaker 1: put his bike down, wandered into the bog and disappeared. Foret,

446
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 1: when you drank a lot, sometimes you have to stop

447
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 1: and answer the call of nature, you know, and listen.

448
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,919
Speaker 1: I think we've all been there where you were pretty sauced.

449
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 1: But there's suddenly are some things that you do by

450
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 1: road and very gently and with a little bit of grace,

451
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,680
Speaker 1: and so you don't just like drop the bike and

452
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:26,200
Speaker 1: clatter it on the ground and stumble. He still stumbled,

453
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 1: but just you could presumably do that. I just would

454
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:34,200
Speaker 1: expect that if this were the case, they found something. Yeah. Well,

455
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,680
Speaker 1: so there are a lot of problems with this. Actually.

456
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:40,960
Speaker 1: One is they've never found anything and and and that's

457
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 1: what Joe was talking about earlier. That was one of

458
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 1: the things that they were looking for. Even as recently

459
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:49,119
Speaker 1: as two thousand and twelve they were excavating more bogs

460
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,359
Speaker 1: they were still have not found anything. Yeah, there was

461
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 1: I believe also a road in in a nearby village

462
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,080
Speaker 1: and near the Strade Valley that was actually being be

463
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 1: paved or worked on at the time of the disappearance.

464
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 1: And I thinking was that perhaps he had been buried

465
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,480
Speaker 1: underneath the road and then he was paved over essentially.

466
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 1: And yeah, so they've they've looked pretty much even with

467
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 1: modern technology, they still haven't found him. It is the

468
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,439
Speaker 1: mystery is still alive in Ireland. You know what, actually

469
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 1: have a question in regards to this, because Joe brought

470
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 1: this up earlier that it was weird that there was

471
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:28,399
Speaker 1: no footprints and all of that. I actually was just

472
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:32,439
Speaker 1: suddenly thinking about it. Do we know where specifically it's snowed,

473
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 1: because there are times in this town where it will

474
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 1: snow in one place and not be snowing four or

475
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 1: five miles away. It might have only been snowing and

476
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 1: kill mac for all. I was wondering about it kind

477
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 1: of a micro climate scenario. I don't know answer to

478
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 1: that question. I have not heard any accounts of it

479
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 1: having snowed in strad Valley. That is true, but I

480
00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 1: just assumed that it's all kind of the same. You

481
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 1: would think that they're close enough that it would be

482
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 1: the same, but I just realized that it might be right. Yeah,

483
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 1: what happens that my house, you know, weather wise, is

484
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 1: totally different than what happens at a lot of other

485
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 1: places in Portland. So that's that's a good thought. One

486
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 1: of the other problems with this theory is that you

487
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 1: remember how I was talking about the search and how

488
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 1: policemen and civilians and postmen had been searching. They got

489
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 1: to answer the call, so they did notice the empty

490
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 1: mail bag, waterproof coveralls, and a cape were strapped to

491
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 1: the bike, like you would expect for somebody who was

492
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 1: at the end of their route. But the way that

493
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 1: the cape was strapped to the bike, the postman said,

494
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 1: was not the way that a season postman would strap

495
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 1: a cape to the bike, because it would actually cause

496
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 1: cracks the way it was folded up, and it would

497
00:29:55,080 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 1: lose its like rubberized canvas. Is I think it was

498
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 1: just waxed canvas, or even just canvas for all I know,

499
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 1: But I think it was probably waxed canvas at that time.

500
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 1: It seems like that would have been the relatively cheap

501
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 1: way to do something like that. But but and and

502
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 1: I know that that it will crack when you know,

503
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 1: if you fold something up like that, it will it

504
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 1: will start a that's not meant to take that kind

505
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 1: of right. So the feeling is that Larry was seasons

506
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,720
Speaker 1: enough that even if he had been really drunk, it

507
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 1: just would have been the natural way that he folded

508
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 1: that cape would have been the correct way every time,

509
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 1: because it would have been the only way he ever

510
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 1: folded it. Many times. I'm confident he did a ton

511
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 1: of times. So that brings a lot of doubt onto this.

512
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 1: And somebody made a note here in my script as

513
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 1: well that the everything that they found was dry, despite

514
00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 1: the fact that it had apparently been precipitating in some

515
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 1: nature overnight, so it would lend itself to seem like

516
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 1: it wasn't just laying out all night m hm, that

517
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 1: makes sense. Or micro climate or micro it could have

518
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 1: been seventy and sunny on Christmas Day. Micro I mean

519
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 1: it's like tiny, tiny climates, you know, like you know,

520
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 1: just surrounding the bicycle itself. Yeah, it was a bicycle climate.

521
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:26,560
Speaker 1: It's like the cartoons, cloud just follows the person. Okay,

522
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 1: so pretty much nobody thinks this actually happened. Um, so

523
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 1: let's move on. I have a couple other theories. Yeah,

524
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 1: next theory is it was a murder. This is where

525
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 1: we're going to start adding more details to that night,

526
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 1: and then we'll kind of talk about some of the

527
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 1: suspects and why it could have or could have not been. Okay,

528
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 1: the Strade Valley police were hot fur lead. That was

529
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 1: not them, obviously. They continued to investigate as well while

530
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 1: O'Meara was doing his investigation, and they arrested two local men,

531
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 1: Jim Fitzgerald and Thomas Corbett. Jim was a fifty five

532
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 1: year old local laborer and Thomas, also a local laborer,

533
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 1: was twenty five. Jim had taken Thomas, who's often referred

534
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 1: to as Tommy as well. He had taken Tommy and

535
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 1: his pregnant girlfriend into his home because they didn't have

536
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:26,960
Speaker 1: a place to live Tommy's girlfriend. So Tommy and Tommy's

537
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 1: girlfriend who was pregnant lived with Jim because Jim was

538
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 1: a nice person, and I mean, maybe maybe a little,

539
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 1: but that was something. It's it seemed like it was

540
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 1: a unique circumstance that he was being. Yes. One thing

541
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 1: to stop and mentioned before we go any further on

542
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 1: this is that apparently at the time, it was illegal

543
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 1: for pubs to serve alcohol on Christmas Day and the

544
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 1: day after, which is St. Stephen's Day. And I have

545
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 1: revoked the band on drinking on my day because I

546
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:06,959
Speaker 1: personally think that you should drink on My day. But anyway,

547
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 1: back to your never caive down and also the this

548
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 1: this particular lot was passed by the way only in

549
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 1: nineteen seven, so just a few years before this incident.

550
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 1: And you said you did some digging into this, and

551
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 1: there were some other days that a lot, not a lot,

552
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 1: but no, that the lot of the Seven Lot as

553
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 1: far as I know, and again I didn't investigate extensively,

554
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 1: but a banned serving or selling liquor on Good Friday,

555
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 1: Christmas Day, and best of all St. Patrick's Day, although

556
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 1: the St Patrick's Day band was was actually repealed in

557
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty. Yeah, and and just like the past year, seventeen,

558
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 1: they finally got rid of the band on on liquor

559
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 1: sales on Good Friday, so now it's only Discristmas Day. Yeah. Well,

560
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 1: they would be really upset to come to this country

561
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 1: and see what we do on St. Patrick's Day. Yeah,

562
00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 1: not so much about snakes, more about just drinking as

563
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 1: much as you possible they can. In case it wasn't

564
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 1: clear earlier, as we mentioned, Whelands is a pub. Wheland's

565
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 1: Pub still is to this day. I think the original

566
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 1: grandson is running. I think it's still a family that's

567
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:15,400
Speaker 1: runs it. Yeah, I'm not totally clear if it was

568
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 1: also an inn at the time or just a pub,

569
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 1: or if they just maybe had like a little extra room. Well,

570
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 1: it's a two story building and probably the family lived

571
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 1: in the second on the second floor. But the question

572
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 1: becomes because so the reason that I like bring this

573
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:34,239
Speaker 1: question up even is because, as mentioned, Delay seemed to

574
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 1: think that Larry there might be room for Larry to

575
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 1: sleep it off in Wheeland. So I don't know if

576
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,319
Speaker 1: they just he just seemed to think maybe they had

577
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,120
Speaker 1: a little extra room in the house or if they

578
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:48,280
Speaker 1: actually did, that was a thing they offered, was a

579
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 1: room or to sleep it often and that actually, if

580
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 1: you think about it from a pub's perspective, that is

581
00:34:55,480 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 1: a great money making Basically a closet with the teeny

582
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,880
Speaker 1: cot it's easy to clean off and you you've charged

583
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:07,919
Speaker 1: a drunk a couple of pence and push him in

584
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 1: and say see you in the morning. Dummy, don't come out,

585
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:13,359
Speaker 1: and if he comes out, you say, oh, you want

586
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:14,959
Speaker 1: to go back in there. It's a couple of pence more.

587
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 1: I mean that that is that is just cheap and easy.

588
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I would absolutely yeah, called drunk tax, and

589
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:24,919
Speaker 1: it might actually just be something they provided for free.

590
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:27,799
Speaker 1: It's just good customer service, you know. Yeah, I think

591
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,319
Speaker 1: it was unlikely that somebody was going to drive home.

592
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 1: There was only one car in town. It was the

593
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 1: police car. I'm kidding. I actually don't know how many

594
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:39,240
Speaker 1: on one carr. According to a lot of the articles

595
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:42,239
Speaker 1: I read, the only car in town belonged to and

596
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 1: I remember who it was, but they always said it

597
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:48,279
Speaker 1: was the only car in town. Thomas, Yes, that's who

598
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:50,799
Speaker 1: it was. And he by the way, I lived right

599
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 1: across the street from Weiland's Public. Well, it was hard

600
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 1: to not live right across the street from it. But Weland's,

601
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:02,279
Speaker 1: you know, like we said, still in operation today. They

602
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:04,359
Speaker 1: still have very strong feelings about this. We'll talk about

603
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 1: it in a minute. Probably they don't like to hear

604
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:09,680
Speaker 1: about it. But they're also still very much just serve

605
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 1: the local community and that's that. So I think that's

606
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 1: probably how it was there as well. Yeah, I'm sure

607
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:19,400
Speaker 1: now as a tourist and going and have a drink.

608
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 1: Actually read there's one single Yelp review of Wheland there is,

609
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 1: and it was from somebody who was from America and

610
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 1: who was touring through, and they said, we saw Whelands

611
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:31,719
Speaker 1: and it was a pub, and we were driving through

612
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 1: and we need someplace to stop. So we stopped and

613
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 1: we went in, and it was clear that we were

614
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:41,920
Speaker 1: not welcome since we were not local. Yeah, but they stayed.

615
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 1: They said they gave it a good review. I mean,

616
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:46,440
Speaker 1: but they were like, it was clear we did not

617
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:51,320
Speaker 1: fit in a liquor. I don't know, I didn't. Yeah. Anyway,

618
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:54,760
Speaker 1: we're a little off topic here. So Jim and Thomas

619
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 1: Tommy both admitted to having been at Wheeland's that night

620
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 1: and to having seen Larry. Jim's story was that another

621
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 1: man named Morrissey had pushed Larry over maybe a dispute

622
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:11,799
Speaker 1: over some money, hit his head on a stove, and

623
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 1: he pushed him hard enough to knock him over over. Well, reportedly,

624
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 1: it was not so hard to knock Larry over that night.

625
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 1: He actually felt knocked himself over a number of times.

626
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:25,880
Speaker 1: Probably he had been sober, he would not have fallen,

627
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:28,440
Speaker 1: but apparently he fell over and hit his head on

628
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 1: a stove and died. Um. And you can read the

629
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:36,319
Speaker 1: actual account from Jim of this, and it's kind of

630
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:42,359
Speaker 1: hard to follow. It's pretty conversationally wandering, but that's as

631
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:45,240
Speaker 1: far as I can surmised, that's what happened in his story.

632
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 1: Tommy's story was a little different. His story was that

633
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:50,840
Speaker 1: they had gone to Wheeland's but hadn't been allowed in

634
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,319
Speaker 1: for whatever reason, maybe their capacity, Maybe it was when

635
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 1: the sergeant was kind of around, because again they were

636
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 1: serving liquor and so you had to keep it on

637
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 1: the download. And I'm not sure the way it's described,

638
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:06,360
Speaker 1: like Fitzgerald and Tommy, it sounds like they went in

639
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 1: the back way and they didn't. Actually, it sounds like

640
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:13,280
Speaker 1: Tommy didn't not actually go into the main the bar area,

641
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:16,520
Speaker 1: just stood in the kitchen drinking. And I'm not sure

642
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:20,400
Speaker 1: why that was customer or something. I don't know what

643
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 1: it was, or they were full in the other room

644
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:26,320
Speaker 1: or the sergeant. So in the original telling of the story,

645
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 1: when Um O'Mara Amara finally went and interviewed the police

646
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:34,239
Speaker 1: officers for the first time, they claimed that they had

647
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:36,759
Speaker 1: been to Wheeland's. Actually, I think it was a couple

648
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 1: of times after that he interviewed them because somebody was like,

649
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:42,040
Speaker 1: we saw them going into a wheelands that night, and

650
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 1: the police officers said, yeah, we were doing raids. Yeah,

651
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 1: we're doing raids. Did it twice? Two raids bargianna checking

652
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 1: to make sure no illicit drinking was going on, right,

653
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 1: which was maybe not actually the reason um they were raiding,

654
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 1: but it could have been that that was, you know,

655
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:04,760
Speaker 1: the moment that the sergeant was in and and the

656
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 1: Wheeland said, well, we're just you know, for whatever reason,

657
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 1: I don't really know what, but they were in this

658
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:12,400
Speaker 1: kind of back room, and that was Jim's story. Tommy

659
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 1: story was that they had actually not been allowed in

660
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:17,760
Speaker 1: UM at first. So they went across to the hall,

661
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:21,400
Speaker 1: which is across the way, as Joe mentioned, which was

662
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:23,799
Speaker 1: basically just another place where people drank, and then they

663
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:28,279
Speaker 1: played cards and Tommy had gotten into a fight with

664
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 1: somebody there. That the story of the fight is actually

665
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:33,880
Speaker 1: corroborated by a number of people. It's one of the

666
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:37,400
Speaker 1: three things that everybody seems to know certain Yeah, and

667
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:41,239
Speaker 1: so I don't really know where the truth is in

668
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 1: these stories. I don't even know if it's possible. It's

669
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:47,360
Speaker 1: certainly possible. I guess that they were both slashed, and

670
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:50,399
Speaker 1: Jim went to Wheelands and was like, Tommy's right behind me,

671
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 1: and Tommy for whatever reason, was like, well, I'm going

672
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 1: over the hall, or they were like Tommy, you can't

673
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:58,880
Speaker 1: come in here. So he went over gotten fight and

674
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:01,440
Speaker 1: came back and thought Jim was with him the whole time.

675
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:05,840
Speaker 1: I don't really know where tom was. Just here. How

676
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 1: do you lose your buddy in a village that size.

677
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 1: I think you're just drunk and you don't really you're

678
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:16,279
Speaker 1: not paying attention. Yeah, But like I said, pretty much

679
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:20,960
Speaker 1: everybody has changed their story a number of times, and

680
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:26,239
Speaker 1: then includes both Jim and Tommy, which is so very frustrating,

681
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 1: super frustrating because there's just nothing consistent. Yeah, so this

682
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:33,279
Speaker 1: is and this is actually where we get into this

683
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:36,719
Speaker 1: a little bit. The police arrested um Tommy Cashane, the

684
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:42,680
Speaker 1: car owner, and Ned Morrissey both right after the interview,

685
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 1: based on the testimony of Jim, because they said that

686
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 1: Thomas Cashane was also there, and he also, I think

687
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:54,160
Speaker 1: as part of this testimony, said that someone said that

688
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:57,440
Speaker 1: like maybe it was Thomas cash in and said that

689
00:40:58,200 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 1: he was going to bring his car. They put the

690
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 1: body and there get rid of it. So the only

691
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 1: car in town. Yeah, because there's not really like a

692
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 1: development on that story necessarily. Of the story kind of

693
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:12,640
Speaker 1: ends with well, Morrissey pushed him and he fell, and

694
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:17,439
Speaker 1: then everybody around was kind of like whatever, like he'll

695
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:19,719
Speaker 1: get up, and then somebody said, oh, he's dead, and

696
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:21,839
Speaker 1: then somebody else was yelling at him to get up,

697
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:24,320
Speaker 1: and I think Morrissey was Morrissey turned him over and

698
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 1: then and then said get up, and he just never

699
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,719
Speaker 1: never moved except for that right after that. This is

700
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:35,040
Speaker 1: why Jim's story there's it's very frustrating because they he says,

701
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:37,800
Speaker 1: Morrissey turned him over and there was a little blood,

702
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:40,880
Speaker 1: but not much. And you know, Morrissey said get up,

703
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 1: and he didn't. He never moved again, but he was

704
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 1: mumbling about and it was like, well, wait what he

705
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:48,960
Speaker 1: was he mumbling about something? Or was he dead? I

706
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:51,479
Speaker 1: don't understand what was happening. But one of the reason

707
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:55,400
Speaker 1: for Fitzgerald's Jim Fitzgerald's confusion on the whole matter was

708
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 1: it turns out that he told another police officer quite

709
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:02,240
Speaker 1: a long time after this, like months afterwards, that actually

710
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:05,319
Speaker 1: he had not been there, had not and not witnessed this,

711
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:07,160
Speaker 1: that he had just heard it. He said he heard

712
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:10,320
Speaker 1: it third hand from somebody who was there. So yeah,

713
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 1: so that's why Thomas Coshane and uh Ned Morrissey were

714
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:19,279
Speaker 1: arrested at first, and the police seemed to think they

715
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 1: could get some kind of conviction based on Jim's original testimony,

716
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:26,960
Speaker 1: and maybe they thought some other people who had been

717
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:30,239
Speaker 1: in the pub. They named so many people. There are

718
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:34,759
Speaker 1: a lot of people, yeah, I think, but yeah, there

719
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 1: was a Wheelans, I think the Wheelands. I think four

720
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 1: of the wheel And family were arrested. Well, yeah, so

721
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:43,799
Speaker 1: they policeman and several exactly, so they arrested Thomas and

722
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:47,960
Speaker 1: ned and then charged them, also charged them with like

723
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:54,279
Speaker 1: theft of postman property or something something like that a

724
00:42:55,400 --> 00:43:00,759
Speaker 1: few days later. Okay, yes it is, though there's no

725
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 1: really evidence to suggest that they actually did steal anything.

726
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:06,279
Speaker 1: I mean, the bike and everything was returned. And maybe

727
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:08,000
Speaker 1: it was the uniform. I think it was the hat

728
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:11,839
Speaker 1: specifically were charging them for. But there was something about

729
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:13,839
Speaker 1: the mailbag too, but I don't remember if the mail

730
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:16,440
Speaker 1: bag was was what the bike it was it was, Yeah,

731
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:19,040
Speaker 1: so it might have been actually just touching it. Maybe

732
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:20,919
Speaker 1: it might be that if you're not remember the post office,

733
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:22,759
Speaker 1: you're not even allowed to handle that mail bag. I

734
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 1: hope that's not true in America, because then I'm actually

735
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:26,760
Speaker 1: it is. If you kick a mail bag in America,

736
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:28,920
Speaker 1: you can go to jail kick it or handle it.

737
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 1: If you just kick it, you know, if you abuse

738
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 1: a mail bag in anyway, that's actually stroke it lovingly.

739
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:37,719
Speaker 1: And like I was gonna say, I usually have to

740
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 1: move a mail bag to clean my house. So hopefully

741
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:43,960
Speaker 1: just taking a mail bag up was not you probably

742
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 1: won't get arrested for it, just as they really Okay,

743
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:49,600
Speaker 1: thank you, Yeah, why don't you inquire on my behalf

744
00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:52,319
Speaker 1: I would let them know where we live now. Great,

745
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:56,280
Speaker 1: so yeah, okay. So a few days later, after Thomas

746
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:58,880
Speaker 1: and Ned were arrested the I think it was for

747
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:02,480
Speaker 1: your right of real mom and dad and two of

748
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 1: their children and two of their kids. Then on February three,

749
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 1: officers do Lay and Murphy were arrested and charged. Though

750
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 1: I'm not totally sure how Murphy was the one that

751
00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 1: got wrapped up in that, because it sounded like it

752
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:19,080
Speaker 1: was Frawley that was the one that was actually wrapped

753
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:24,439
Speaker 1: up in actually. And then on March seventh, they were

754
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:29,560
Speaker 1: all let go after some kind of trivial trial time.

755
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:32,399
Speaker 1: Well they weren't let go per se. They were all

756
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:38,040
Speaker 1: reassigned other other areas around the country or other precincts.

757
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 1: I thought, no, no, no, no, no no, I'm sorry. All

758
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 1: of the people that I just listed that had been

759
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 1: arrested and charged, they tried them all together in one

760
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 1: single trial, and the judge was like, Okay, you gotta

761
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:53,440
Speaker 1: give me more than this. O'Meara like, you can't just

762
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:56,120
Speaker 1: give me one guy who has somehow changed his story

763
00:44:56,239 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 1: sitting on the stand. The trial was that they kept

764
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:03,759
Speaker 1: moving things out by we need done a week or

765
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:05,440
Speaker 1: two to get this and oh when you know, the

766
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:08,319
Speaker 1: week or two for that, and then it became what

767
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:11,920
Speaker 1: six or eight months, not about four, but well, yeah,

768
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:14,759
Speaker 1: originally it was supposed to be kind of a quick thing.

769
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:19,279
Speaker 1: And then Jim Fitzgerald comes in to testify. That's when

770
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:22,319
Speaker 1: he changed his story, which actually turned to the story

771
00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 1: was sort of b s because he claimed to have

772
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:27,239
Speaker 1: beendon when he never was probably and he says, well,

773
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:30,160
Speaker 1: I didn't really see him see that stuff, so in

774
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:32,360
Speaker 1: a sense he was he was almost telling the truth,

775
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:34,080
Speaker 1: although it looked like he lie out the stand, but

776
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:35,799
Speaker 1: I guess he was sort of telling the trucher said, well,

777
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:40,400
Speaker 1: actually I didn't actually see that, although he didn't explain that, well,

778
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 1: you know, I heard it from somebody else, he didn't

779
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 1: say that. So that's when they got the first continuance

780
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:48,160
Speaker 1: for a week so the prosecution can firm up its case,

781
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:50,600
Speaker 1: because that was literally all they were going. Yeah, they

782
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 1: didn't have much else to do. Well, I think they

783
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:54,319
Speaker 1: had a little bit of evidence. They took, like the

784
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:58,400
Speaker 1: stove out of Wheeler's pub. Yeah, they actually took they

785
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 1: use some confessions they did, they did some forensic testing

786
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:04,759
Speaker 1: at the time, I remember, and they actually I think

787
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:08,160
Speaker 1: they did forensic testing on like all of Wheeland's, including

788
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:12,160
Speaker 1: the upstairs, and the only human blood they found was

789
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 1: in the trash and was connected to one of the

790
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:22,560
Speaker 1: daughter's menstrual cycles. Is the only the only trace they found? Um, Yeah,

791
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:25,640
Speaker 1: I mean they even they swabbed the stove extensively and

792
00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:28,680
Speaker 1: there was no sign it wasn't clean. But there was

793
00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:32,840
Speaker 1: no human blood anywhere, you know, So they just didn't

794
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:35,239
Speaker 1: have evidence. There was no evidence, but there was, so

795
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:37,919
Speaker 1: they just they were all let go. So I guess

796
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:40,400
Speaker 1: we can kind of briefly talk about some of the

797
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:43,880
Speaker 1: people who were brought in and charged and kind of

798
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:46,040
Speaker 1: discussed them. I would say the first we should talk

799
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:51,359
Speaker 1: about is um Thomas Cushion. And as far as I know,

800
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:53,560
Speaker 1: Jim is the only person who has come forward with

801
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:55,719
Speaker 1: that story. And it sounds like there were a ton

802
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:59,000
Speaker 1: of people in there and Whelands at the time. Even

803
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:01,400
Speaker 1: by Jim's own account, there were a lot of people

804
00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:06,759
Speaker 1: in that same room who reportedly even spoke to or

805
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 1: reacted to the incident where Larry fell down. I just

806
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 1: find it very hard to believe that he's the only one,

807
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:15,759
Speaker 1: even though maybe he did wasn't actually there that he

808
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:17,480
Speaker 1: would be the only one who would speak up about

809
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:22,399
Speaker 1: that about Jim Jim FitzGeralds. You mean, yeah, if they had,

810
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:26,120
Speaker 1: if that actually happened, well, um, you know, you know,

811
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:28,200
Speaker 1: I think that at a certain point, when you enter

812
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:31,439
Speaker 1: into a conspiracy, you're breaking a lot. At a certain point,

813
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:33,160
Speaker 1: you're kind of you know, in for a penny, in

814
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:35,200
Speaker 1: for a pound, you know what I mean. I think

815
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:39,080
Speaker 1: that these these people really uh and obviously the motive here,

816
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:41,480
Speaker 1: it would have just been reported as an accident, you

817
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:44,360
Speaker 1: call the doctor, called the cops. But they were drinking

818
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 1: illegally in the pub Christmas Day, and several of those

819
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:48,879
Speaker 1: people had a lot to lose. I mean, number one,

820
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:52,200
Speaker 1: the wheelands would lose their license, in their livelihood, and

821
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:55,399
Speaker 1: the policeman would lose their jobs. And then Tom Tom

822
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 1: cash and was a school principle. He would have lost

823
00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:01,520
Speaker 1: his job. And so everybody had a motive. But at

824
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 1: the same time, it's like, dudes, you know, there's so

825
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:07,440
Speaker 1: many patter ways to approach this whole thing. Literally, the

826
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:09,759
Speaker 1: cassitions could have said all of you get the hell

827
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 1: out of here, and we're gonna say Larry wandered in

828
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:19,759
Speaker 1: and we tried to put him to bed, and he drunk.

829
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:25,720
Speaker 1: Larry started stumbling around and fell like bringing that many

830
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:31,120
Speaker 1: co conspirators and especially when you're all drinking. Yea, it

831
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:34,400
Speaker 1: was dumb. I mean everything everything they did to handle

832
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:36,480
Speaker 1: this thing like like that. For example, this is what

833
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:39,160
Speaker 1: happened if they took the bike, which is what appair appeared.

834
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:41,400
Speaker 1: Apparently somebody planted the bike on the road back to

835
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:45,200
Speaker 1: kill mac Uh. They should have wheeled it further down

836
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:47,200
Speaker 1: the road before they dropped it. They only took him

837
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:49,319
Speaker 1: about a quarter of the way to kill mac and

838
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:50,919
Speaker 1: then left it by the side of the road, well

839
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:56,640
Speaker 1: closer to kill than le. So the one little thing

840
00:48:56,719 --> 00:48:59,799
Speaker 1: here that I didn't really mention is that it's the

841
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:04,080
Speaker 1: one road that goes from strad Valley to Killmack. But

842
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:07,520
Speaker 1: there's one little intersection on that road that intersects with

843
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:10,680
Speaker 1: five other roads and pretty much like right there is

844
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:13,799
Speaker 1: where they found the bike. So I can understand why

845
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:16,239
Speaker 1: somebody might be like going to the junction, and that's

846
00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:18,880
Speaker 1: as far as I going, here's the bike, and it

847
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:22,280
Speaker 1: could be anywhere in anyway. Yeah, especially and it was cold,

848
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:24,839
Speaker 1: maybe it was swing because that early in the morning

849
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 1: they're starting to have the hangover come on. But I

850
00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:30,000
Speaker 1: think that whoever did leave the bike there, you know,

851
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:32,920
Speaker 1: probably later on had regrets about not maybe really got

852
00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:34,719
Speaker 1: a couple of miles further down the road, or just

853
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:36,960
Speaker 1: tossing it in the bog. Yeah, that would have been

854
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:40,399
Speaker 1: a good way to go to So um, I mean, yeah,

855
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:41,960
Speaker 1: we can talk about the Wheelands, we can talk about

856
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:44,400
Speaker 1: all the officers, but I guess we can just hop

857
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 1: right to my last and favorite theory, which is that

858
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 1: it was an accident and then a cover up. I

859
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:53,000
Speaker 1: actually heard a story that I guess, you know, somebody

860
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:56,400
Speaker 1: probably in the village had said that actually what happened

861
00:49:56,480 --> 00:50:01,880
Speaker 1: is that the police officers had haken Larry up to

862
00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:06,080
Speaker 1: their barracks to sleep it off that night, by the way,

863
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:09,200
Speaker 1: also across the street from Wheelers Pub, right across the street,

864
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:14,120
Speaker 1: and that what had happened is the stairs at the

865
00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:17,160
Speaker 1: time coming down from the barracks didn't actually have a

866
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 1: railing on it, and that he was drunk, had woken

867
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:22,319
Speaker 1: up drunk up there, walked down the stairs, fallen off

868
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:25,560
Speaker 1: and died, and that they decided to cover that up

869
00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:28,359
Speaker 1: for some reason. I don't necessarily believe that so much

870
00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:31,640
Speaker 1: as some other accident. But regardless, I do think that

871
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:35,440
Speaker 1: Larry probably got drunk and some kind of accident happened

872
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:39,400
Speaker 1: to him. But then there was this massive conspiracy of

873
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:44,080
Speaker 1: pretty much everybody who lived in the village to cover

874
00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:47,040
Speaker 1: it up. There was actually a lot of talk about

875
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:49,520
Speaker 1: that there were a lot of mines in the area,

876
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:55,040
Speaker 1: mineral and it's it's pretty much believed that he was

877
00:50:55,160 --> 00:51:00,839
Speaker 1: dropped down a mine shaft and then covered up. Yeah. Actually, um,

878
00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:03,160
Speaker 1: as part of the search effort, I mean, they searched

879
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:04,960
Speaker 1: a bunch of those minds. They also dug up there's

880
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:07,799
Speaker 1: a local beach. They dug up the entire beach. They

881
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:10,480
Speaker 1: also dug up a bunch of graves and the local

882
00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:13,560
Speaker 1: church graveyard. Yeah, they've done a lot of stuff. But

883
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:17,399
Speaker 1: I you know, it's certainly if you know the area, well,

884
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:21,080
Speaker 1: it's certainly possible that they could have I still, I

885
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:25,200
Speaker 1: just still struggle with the sheer number of people involved.

886
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:28,839
Speaker 1: You think somebody would have cracked well, and well my well,

887
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:32,919
Speaker 1: my problem is that these people all seemed to have

888
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:37,319
Speaker 1: a similar story, and then they diverged, and then they

889
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:41,400
Speaker 1: began to turn on each other, and there was this

890
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:44,879
Speaker 1: what appeared to be some really vicious fighting going on

891
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:48,799
Speaker 1: between them, and I if that were the case, if

892
00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:52,600
Speaker 1: they were all really involved, I could just see somebody

893
00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:57,520
Speaker 1: being so fed up and just saying, effort, you were there,

894
00:51:57,600 --> 00:51:59,799
Speaker 1: you did this, you did that, like just spilling the

895
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:05,000
Speaker 1: So my guest is is really that you know, everybody

896
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:07,720
Speaker 1: had been drinking all day, and everybody was pretty sauce,

897
00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:11,160
Speaker 1: and at some point it was a smaller group, right,

898
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:14,000
Speaker 1: at some point, everybody's kind of like, well then I

899
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:20,320
Speaker 1: lost track of him, right, and maybe one of the cops, yeah,

900
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:24,120
Speaker 1: or I'm or maybe or maybe two of the cops

901
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:28,000
Speaker 1: or something. But that that what happened was, you know,

902
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:30,160
Speaker 1: maybe he did fault. Let's say that Jim was telling

903
00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:32,400
Speaker 1: the truth and that he did fall down and Wheland's

904
00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:34,000
Speaker 1: Pub and hit his head on the stove, and that's

905
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:36,839
Speaker 1: how he died. At some point, somebody says, well, we

906
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:39,239
Speaker 1: know up to that point, and we were all doing

907
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:42,239
Speaker 1: something really illegal, and so to admit that we were

908
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:44,840
Speaker 1: there makes us culpable for that illegal thing. So we

909
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:48,640
Speaker 1: just got out of the room, we left, and then

910
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:52,360
Speaker 1: that's it. And then that explains all this in fighting

911
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:54,480
Speaker 1: of nobody actually knows what I mean, you know, maybe

912
00:52:54,520 --> 00:52:57,879
Speaker 1: two or three very end, except maybe two or three

913
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:01,480
Speaker 1: people actually know, but in the whole group as a

914
00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:04,920
Speaker 1: whole doesn't really know what happened next. And so that

915
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:07,880
Speaker 1: explains this, like, well, I think it was this person

916
00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:10,600
Speaker 1: doing this thing, but really what the truth is is

917
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:13,000
Speaker 1: that maybe you were so black out drunk or just

918
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 1: like so slashed that you all you could pay attention

919
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:17,680
Speaker 1: to is getting yourself out of that situation that you

920
00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:20,720
Speaker 1: realized was bad and you weren't paying attention to anything else.

921
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:25,160
Speaker 1: And that's it. I can get behind that, because again,

922
00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:28,360
Speaker 1: as we've discussed before, it minimizes the pool of people

923
00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:30,920
Speaker 1: who were involved, and the people who were on the

924
00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:33,560
Speaker 1: outside know a little bit, but not enough to actually

925
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:37,720
Speaker 1: say the right thing to give it away. Still, here's

926
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:40,000
Speaker 1: the problem I have with these people is they should

927
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:42,920
Speaker 1: have discussed this and gotten their stories straight. I mean,

928
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:49,399
Speaker 1: my god, bonehead should have How many times have we

929
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:54,160
Speaker 1: been drinking together in years past and we'd all had

930
00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:57,760
Speaker 1: too much to drink and something happened as a body

931
00:53:57,840 --> 00:53:59,200
Speaker 1: and we got to get rid of the bloody But

932
00:53:59,239 --> 00:54:03,360
Speaker 1: and then everybody's stories different because everybody remember he's like, hey,

933
00:54:03,560 --> 00:54:06,239
Speaker 1: do you remember what so and so did oh, yeah

934
00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:09,320
Speaker 1: he did this right. No, no, no, he did that.

935
00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:12,040
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not saying you get together that night

936
00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:14,759
Speaker 1: when you're all hammered and hammer at your story, then

937
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:16,759
Speaker 1: no pun intend I'm not I'm saying next day when

938
00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:20,640
Speaker 1: you're all sober. But I think that was I think

939
00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:23,200
Speaker 1: that would be. The difficulty, though, is that if there's

940
00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:27,360
Speaker 1: suddenly this giant search the next morning, right away, it

941
00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:32,040
Speaker 1: looks really suspicious that you all come together and have

942
00:54:32,239 --> 00:54:35,200
Speaker 1: that conversation, and if you do it in pairs or

943
00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:39,200
Speaker 1: small groups, it would become a game of telephone. People

944
00:54:39,239 --> 00:54:42,759
Speaker 1: in the front had one version another. The trick, right,

945
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:45,640
Speaker 1: is that it sounds like the police officers did have

946
00:54:45,719 --> 00:54:49,600
Speaker 1: their story story straight at first. Right. Their story was,

947
00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:52,360
Speaker 1: we didn't see him, but he was sober. We didn't

948
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:54,440
Speaker 1: do it right, we didn't see him, we don't know

949
00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:58,760
Speaker 1: what happened, but he was sober. And then suddenly somebody

950
00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:00,759
Speaker 1: else said no, he was with them, and they were like,

951
00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:04,560
Speaker 1: oh damn, you forgot to tell the wheeling. This is

952
00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:06,239
Speaker 1: they forgot to tell a lot of people. This is

953
00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:08,759
Speaker 1: the problem is that when you tell, when you tell

954
00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:11,839
Speaker 1: lies that are going to be very easily and quickly unmasked,

955
00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:15,560
Speaker 1: and it was incredible. We're not saying that these people

956
00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:18,920
Speaker 1: were like particularly intelligent. And I guess the last reason

957
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:21,799
Speaker 1: that I think that this was like a big conspiracy

958
00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:25,280
Speaker 1: is that to this day, any kind of inquiries about

959
00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:27,839
Speaker 1: this with the locals and Strade Valley is met with

960
00:55:27,920 --> 00:55:33,840
Speaker 1: like extreme hostility. Yeah, yeah, how about you just the

961
00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:40,279
Speaker 1: right off right like that? It's far almost you know

962
00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:42,839
Speaker 1: that ninety years later you could go into that town

963
00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:45,040
Speaker 1: and say, hey, do you know anything about this disappearance

964
00:55:45,080 --> 00:55:47,000
Speaker 1: and for people to just swear at you and tell

965
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:49,359
Speaker 1: you to get out. You know, I think they're going

966
00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:51,080
Speaker 1: about it all wrong. I mean I would have a

967
00:55:51,120 --> 00:55:53,719
Speaker 1: little museum to the whole thing myself. I would open

968
00:55:53,760 --> 00:55:57,680
Speaker 1: it up and I would postcards and key chains, and

969
00:56:00,520 --> 00:56:03,840
Speaker 1: was like, they're gonna like they're gonna put Grandpa in

970
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:06,440
Speaker 1: jail anymore at this point though. That's the thing, is

971
00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:09,960
Speaker 1: that Joe has got a point this long gone. Who

972
00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:15,480
Speaker 1: gives a crash. Locals communities that are tightened it like

973
00:56:15,520 --> 00:56:20,200
Speaker 1: that and don't like outsiders. They don't care about the

974
00:56:20,239 --> 00:56:23,600
Speaker 1: possibility of making money off the loons that are coming by.

975
00:56:23,800 --> 00:56:26,120
Speaker 1: They just don't want the loons to come by. But

976
00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:28,200
Speaker 1: I just think of about the fun prospects, like if

977
00:56:28,239 --> 00:56:29,920
Speaker 1: you make the museum and then you've got all these

978
00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:33,080
Speaker 1: exhibits and they're sort of in chronological order of the mystery,

979
00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:35,239
Speaker 1: and yet as you go from stage one to two

980
00:56:35,239 --> 00:56:37,240
Speaker 1: to three, to four to five to six, the hell

981
00:56:37,280 --> 00:56:40,480
Speaker 1: contradict each other. Wouldn't that be perfect? So I know

982
00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:42,800
Speaker 1: what you're gonna do with all of your thinking sideways

983
00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:45,000
Speaker 1: money is You're going to buy a place in Strade

984
00:56:45,040 --> 00:56:48,399
Speaker 1: Valley and open up, and I will be I will

985
00:56:48,480 --> 00:56:51,799
Speaker 1: be the missing podcaster of Strade Valley. You will be

986
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:55,960
Speaker 1: found hard and feathered in a bog in a bog

987
00:56:55,960 --> 00:56:59,319
Speaker 1: in a mind check. Okay, do you guys have any

988
00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:02,640
Speaker 1: other theories? That's all I got? Yeah, I mean really,

989
00:57:02,680 --> 00:57:06,080
Speaker 1: I think is really sad. I wish that we knew

990
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:08,480
Speaker 1: what happened to him. It doesn't really sound like it

991
00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:11,600
Speaker 1: was anyone's faults. Well then Morrissey, I think it is

992
00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:13,880
Speaker 1: was the culprit. But I don't think he intended to

993
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:16,160
Speaker 1: hurt him out. I mean yeah, my impression is that

994
00:57:16,240 --> 00:57:18,640
Speaker 1: he kind of just you know, like on the shoulder,

995
00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:21,080
Speaker 1: like hey, Bud, like why don't you back off, and

996
00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:23,360
Speaker 1: Larry was just so drunk that he was just like

997
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:28,040
Speaker 1: whoa loss is balance and tumbled into the stove. Yeah. Probably, Yeah,

998
00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:30,680
Speaker 1: Probably nobody's real fault. It's if I hadn't meant for

999
00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:33,840
Speaker 1: this silly non drink no no selling liquor on Christmas law,

1000
00:57:33,920 --> 00:57:36,760
Speaker 1: everything would have been everything would have been okay, abolished

1001
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:40,520
Speaker 1: that law. Yeah, well, I'm sure it's coming one of

1002
00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:43,200
Speaker 1: these days. Two out of three are already down, so

1003
00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:45,760
Speaker 1: Christmas is next. It won't be too much longer, probably,

1004
00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:49,400
Speaker 1: So there you go. That's our story. If you want

1005
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:52,680
Speaker 1: to see any of the links to some of our research,

1006
00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:56,800
Speaker 1: or listen to this episode, or find a list of

1007
00:57:58,040 --> 00:58:04,200
Speaker 1: episode it um, or find links to merch or I

1008
00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:06,760
Speaker 1: don't know, other stuff that's fun. I guess I don't know,

1009
00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:10,360
Speaker 1: you can check out our website. Website is Thinking Sideways

1010
00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:14,080
Speaker 1: podcast dot com. If you would like to have your

1011
00:58:14,160 --> 00:58:16,480
Speaker 1: name read off at the beginning of an episode like

1012
00:58:16,560 --> 00:58:20,520
Speaker 1: this a k A. Suggest one, or send us you know,

1013
00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:23,720
Speaker 1: talk to me about how horrible my Irish pronunciation is,

1014
00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:27,080
Speaker 1: anything like that, you can email us. Our email address

1015
00:58:27,120 --> 00:58:30,240
Speaker 1: is Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com. You can

1016
00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:33,040
Speaker 1: connect with us on social media. They should write that

1017
00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:36,360
Speaker 1: email in Gaelic though, yeah they should. Yeah, actually would you?

1018
00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:42,000
Speaker 1: I don't really know how it would be said? What's subtitles? Yeah? Um.

1019
00:58:42,040 --> 00:58:46,080
Speaker 1: If you would like to connect with us on social media,

1020
00:58:46,160 --> 00:58:48,680
Speaker 1: you can do that in pretty much any kind of form.

1021
00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:52,080
Speaker 1: We have a Twitter where we're thinking sideways. We have

1022
00:58:52,120 --> 00:58:54,640
Speaker 1: an Instagram where are thinking sideways podcast, and we have

1023
00:58:54,680 --> 00:58:57,240
Speaker 1: a Facebook page and group, both of which we are

1024
00:58:57,280 --> 00:59:03,880
Speaker 1: just thinking sideways. So true with podcast thing sideways on Facebook. Yeah,

1025
00:59:04,000 --> 00:59:07,360
Speaker 1: just find us and if you find the page, it'll

1026
00:59:07,400 --> 00:59:09,240
Speaker 1: link you to the group. And if you find the page,

1027
00:59:09,280 --> 00:59:11,200
Speaker 1: you can like it. And if you join the group,

1028
00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:13,160
Speaker 1: you have to answer some questions, so don't forget to

1029
00:59:13,160 --> 00:59:16,240
Speaker 1: do that easy questions. But we also have a slubreadit

1030
00:59:16,560 --> 00:59:19,680
Speaker 1: thinking sideways. Sometimes I forget about that. You probably know

1031
00:59:19,760 --> 00:59:22,960
Speaker 1: how you're listening to us. Uh, If it's not Stitcher premium,

1032
00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:27,680
Speaker 1: you're doing it wrong. But if you should get on

1033
00:59:27,680 --> 00:59:30,920
Speaker 1: Sticher premium. But it might also be iTunes or I

1034
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:35,040
Speaker 1: don't know, Google Play or Spotify now apparently too. But

1035
00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:37,280
Speaker 1: if you are listening to a place where you can

1036
00:59:37,320 --> 00:59:39,520
Speaker 1: give us a rating and a review, please do that.

1037
00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:43,560
Speaker 1: It's how other people find us and um, you know,

1038
00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:46,280
Speaker 1: make it a good one because we like you, I

1039
00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:49,200
Speaker 1: guess or whatever. Oh and if you really do want

1040
00:59:49,240 --> 00:59:51,640
Speaker 1: to get Stitcher Premium and be a cool kid like us,

1041
00:59:52,080 --> 00:59:55,120
Speaker 1: you can go to stitcher dot com slash thinking sideways

1042
00:59:55,280 --> 00:59:57,680
Speaker 1: and if you would like to sign up for it,

1043
00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:00,960
Speaker 1: you can use the promo code sideways for one month

1044
01:00:01,320 --> 01:00:06,280
Speaker 1: free on your annual plan. Uh and you get bonus

1045
01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:09,720
Speaker 1: content and add free content and add free content is early.

1046
01:00:09,840 --> 01:00:12,640
Speaker 1: It's like four days early, so it's totally worth it.

1047
01:00:12,760 --> 01:00:14,400
Speaker 1: All of that having been said, I think we are

1048
01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:16,760
Speaker 1: going to get lost. I'm gonna get it. Get us.

1049
01:00:17,360 --> 01:00:19,160
Speaker 1: Merry Christmas. Bye guys,