1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:04,200 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:11,480 Speaker 1: today's best minds. We're on vacation, but that doesn't mean 4 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: we don't have an excellent show for you today. Skidmore 5 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:20,319 Speaker 1: College Assistant professor Bradley Onishi tells us about his new book, 6 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:24,800 Speaker 1: Preparing for War, the extremist history of White Christian Nationalism 7 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: and what comes next. But first we have democratic strategist 8 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:32,479 Speaker 1: Tim Hogan, who tells us about his strategy to have 9 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: democratic billionaires by TV stations to combat the right wing 10 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 1: media takeover. Welcome Tim Hogan to Fast Politics. 11 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:42,080 Speaker 2: Thank you, it's good to be here. 12 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:48,519 Speaker 1: So I want to talk to you about your super 13 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 1: interesting idea. 14 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. So we put together, over the last few months 15 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 2: a look at the trends in media production, consumption, the 16 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:02,280 Speaker 2: ownership landscape, without really doing like a full analysis of 17 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 2: every media trend because that would be impossible to do 18 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 2: in eighty pages, we put together. And interestingly enough, while 19 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 2: we're putting that together, BuzzFeed folded. But BuzzFeed News folded 20 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 2: Vice felt for bankruptcy. They were layoffs. I've met a Twitter, NBR, ESPN, 21 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:20,400 Speaker 2: The watching Spotify Box, I mean, name like any media company, 22 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:23,959 Speaker 2: and you're seeing these rolling layoffs, and then we're continuing 23 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 2: to see a gutting of local newspapers year over year, 24 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 2: plummeting in circulation advertising revenue. And so it's a really 25 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 2: meaty question of what's happening in the media space. And 26 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:40,320 Speaker 2: we don't presume to have all of the answers, but 27 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 2: we wanted to take stock of what was happening give 28 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 2: some directional recommendations because we initially thought, well, let's look 29 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 2: for this document. Where does this document exist? There's this 30 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 2: big conversation happening, but we couldn't find it. 31 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 3: Oh, so you decided to create it. 32 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 2: And so we decided to create it ourselves. 33 00:01:57,480 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 3: Yes. 34 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 1: So you know, Margaret's Alivan and from the Washington Post 35 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: is like my she's not the Washington posting were now 36 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 1: she said Guardian, but she is my mentor, and she's 37 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 1: constantly having this conversation about what happens when you don't 38 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 1: have local news. So I mean, were you able to 39 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 1: sort of see what the consequences of that were. 40 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, you see, in a lot of different markets, people 41 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 2: are just not informed about what's happening, and there are 42 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 2: a lot of downstream effects of that, whether that is 43 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 2: people not voting, or an increase in corruption in local offices, 44 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 2: or just people not being informed about what their representatives, 45 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 2: to take a political view of it, are doing. You know, 46 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:40,639 Speaker 2: I came to this rapport from the perspective of someone 47 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 2: who has worked at a media company, the BCPTA twenty 48 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:47,800 Speaker 2: Am in Chicago. It's an am radio station. We launched 49 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 2: a digital newsroom. We watch what people are doing in 50 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 2: state houses and what they're saying and what legislation they're passing. 51 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 2: And it's stunning to watch some of this regionally in 52 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:00,839 Speaker 2: the Midwest and realize that there are no local news 53 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:03,959 Speaker 2: outlets that are able to cover what's happening, simply because 54 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:06,080 Speaker 2: they don't have the resources. So we have a debate 55 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:09,640 Speaker 2: in Wisconsin, for example, last week over access to birth control, 56 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:12,239 Speaker 2: and you've got a Republican taken in the floor saying 57 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:15,239 Speaker 2: that birth control makes women feel superior to nature, it 58 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 2: deductive system at least proliferation of STDC Jesus, I haven't 59 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 2: even seen that, yeah, exactly, And I'm like, is anybody 60 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:26,399 Speaker 2: else watching this? And frequently the answer is no. And 61 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:29,920 Speaker 2: so you know, from that perspective, it is just a 62 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 2: lack of information about who's representing you, what's happening in 63 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 2: your government. 64 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that's crazy. 65 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 1: You know, it's funny because I've seen little bits of 66 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 1: the people who took away choice trying to get involved 67 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 1: with taking away birth control. So none of this should surprise, 68 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 1: but it still kind of does. 69 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 2: Right, it's people like that. But it's also you know, 70 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 2: we monitored a candidate in Michigan, mad Daperno, as a 71 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 2: Republican candidate there. He's running for attorney general. He compared 72 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 2: Plan Beat a fentanyel. We caught that We saw Georgia 73 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 2: Governor Brian Kemp say he was open to signing legislation 74 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 2: that would restrict access to contraception. So it's it's these 75 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 2: little bits of information that I think paint a clearer 76 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:15,640 Speaker 2: picture sometimes of who's representing you that get missed if 77 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 2: you don't have the resources to do it right. 78 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 3: It's such an interesting sort of quandary that we find 79 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 3: ourselves in here with this. So, I mean, it's funny 80 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:28,679 Speaker 3: because it's like, I feel like one of the worst 81 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 3: examples of it is like watching these tech bros. Right, So, 82 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 3: like Twitter is now dominated by people like David Zax 83 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 3: and he's a tech bro. I mean I could explain 84 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 3: who he is, but who cares? 85 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 1: And Elon Mush and these people, and you see in 86 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 1: real time, like these people do not read The New 87 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 1: York Times like they must not, so they come up 88 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 1: with these things. You know, David Sax was furious that 89 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 1: there were troops in Ukraine, right, I mean, there are 90 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 1: not supposed to be any troops in Ukraine. And this 91 00:04:57,120 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 1: whole time, Biden has made a real point of We're 92 00:04:59,880 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 1: not sending a single troop to Ukraine. So you know, 93 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:06,599 Speaker 1: maybe they're American contractors, maybe there are Americans, but there 94 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 1: aren't troops. And there's so much disinformation with this crew 95 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:16,479 Speaker 1: that are all like Ivy League graduates, who are you know, 96 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 1: at least with some things known to be quite adapt. 97 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 2: That is an example of what we found too, is 98 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:25,719 Speaker 2: that there is this explosion of options for consumers and 99 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 2: you don't have an editorial staff outside of community notes, 100 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 2: you know, right right, I'm not who is that. I 101 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 2: don't even know. You've seen as a result that people 102 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 2: just go to where they're comfortable, versus when you used 103 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 2: to have a local newspaper or local TV station was 104 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 2: your main way of getting the news. Now you need 105 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:47,480 Speaker 2: to have a little bit more of a motivated consumer 106 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 2: if you really want to seek out accurate information. And 107 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 2: so I think the question is, as a lot of 108 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 2: these standard newspapers TV stations have struggled with a shift 109 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 2: to digital distribution, people are going out elsewhere. How do 110 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 2: we adapt to that type of information ecosystem. And one 111 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:07,359 Speaker 2: of the recommendations that we make in the report is 112 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:11,359 Speaker 2: that we do shift to looking more at investment in 113 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:16,160 Speaker 2: creators because they carry a certain level of credibility and 114 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 2: they are where people are going to get their news. 115 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 2: So what derivative content, for example, do they create from 116 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 2: a bombshell news report. Not everyone's going to go to 117 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:29,480 Speaker 2: pro Publica right and read the intricacies of their coverage 118 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 2: of Alito or Thomas or really good study they did 119 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 2: in the trucking industry. So how do you get people 120 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 2: who are already have an audience involved in helping distribute 121 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:41,039 Speaker 2: that type of content? 122 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:44,720 Speaker 1: Is it just me or does it seem like there 123 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:50,279 Speaker 1: is a real movement from like the trusted brand of 124 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 1: the New York Times to the trusted brand of the 125 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 1: actual journalist. 126 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 2: I think that's right. 127 00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 3: I feel like The New York. 128 00:06:57,480 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 1: Times a bad example because that is like the gold standard. 129 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:02,720 Speaker 1: But like if you think of the trusted brand of 130 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:06,279 Speaker 1: like Vice, which we love but has gone now rip 131 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 1: to the trusted brand of like Jim Acosta. 132 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 2: Yes, and but I think that's a good like The 133 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 2: New York Times is a very good example there because 134 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 2: I think they as an institution are grappling with this 135 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 2: question even more because yes, the trend is toward individuals 136 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 2: as the brand and the trusted voice. But you do 137 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 2: have these big institutions that weathered a lot of changes, right, 138 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 2: But the New York Times, like the Washington Post, who 139 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 2: did create a smart revenue model and Ben Smith writes 140 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 2: about this in Traffic for Themselves, you know, in twenty fourteen, 141 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 2: twenty fifteen, based on subscription and not necessarily just traffic 142 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 2: and ad revenue generated that way, so they were able 143 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:50,880 Speaker 2: to weather some of it. But the larger trend is 144 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 2: still towards individuals. And you see someone like Ben Smith 145 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 2: at Semaphore. He was just talking it can about how he, 146 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 2: you know, wants to give his journalists the ability to 147 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 2: follow things that they're curious about and build an audience 148 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 2: that is attached to them, not necessarily to Semaphore, but 149 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 2: Semophore is their home. And I think that's a large 150 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 2: trend that we're seeing too. 151 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 1: It's so interesting because it's like, I mean, I think 152 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 1: of my own career, right, I popped around, you know, 153 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 1: I started at The Daily Beast, and then I went 154 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 1: to Vogue and now I'm at Anti Fair. 155 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 3: So I've seen, you know, firsthand that. 156 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 1: Like it's interesting because it's like I almost wonder, like 157 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 1: I come from the nineteen nineties. So in the nineties, 158 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:38,680 Speaker 1: the platform was a much bigger deal than the creator, right, 159 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 1: and so if you had a piece in Vogue or 160 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 1: you had a piece in the New York Times, you know, 161 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 1: that was sort of it. 162 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:50,199 Speaker 3: And now that's really different. I mean, it really is. 163 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 3: Explain to me what you guys are talking about with 164 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 3: this idea. 165 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 1: Of buying a. 166 00:08:58,080 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 3: TV local news station. 167 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I feel like that was the ghost of 168 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 2: BuzzFeed showing up at Themophore and said, we need to 169 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 2: really click baby headline it is. You know, we do 170 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 2: talk about local TV in the report, and what we 171 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:14,680 Speaker 2: see that's interesting about it is that unlike newspapers, which 172 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 2: truly have been in free fall, local broadcast TV, at 173 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 2: least so far, has proven relatively impervious to you know, 174 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 2: declines and employment and revenue and news production volume. And 175 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 2: they also hit that spot of trust because we frequently 176 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 2: see people less trusting of national institutions, national brands, but 177 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 2: more trusting of their local for a variety of reasons. 178 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 2: I mean, like I can name the news anchors that 179 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 2: I grew up with in the suburb of Minneapolis. I 180 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 2: think that is part of it. And part of it 181 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 2: too is that they see their community reflected back to them, 182 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 2: and we haven't really seen a huge change in local 183 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 2: television formats right think about what it was a decade ago, 184 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 2: two decades ago, three decades ago. It feels kind of 185 00:09:57,679 --> 00:10:00,679 Speaker 2: the same. And part of that too is that they've 186 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 2: been able to be stable with the revenue that they've 187 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:07,960 Speaker 2: brought in. They rely cyclically on political ads, that's a constant, 188 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 2: and we're seeing record spending that's helping them keep afloat. 189 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 2: And they're also making some money from these retransmission fees 190 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 2: from some of their content. So that is a place 191 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:20,320 Speaker 2: that I think is underappreciated. I think we light our 192 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 2: hair on fire when thinking about local news focused on 193 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 2: newspapers because there's been such a decline there. But we 194 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 2: should be looking at television too, because it's been relatively stable, 195 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 2: very surprisingly. 196 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:34,079 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I feel like a lot of this 197 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 1: sort of came up when we saw Sinclair come into town. 198 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 3: Yep, go on, you talk to me about that. 199 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 2: From the you know, I want to say, like twenty fourteen, 200 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 2: twenty fifteen, you started to see people paying attention to 201 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 2: them doing must runs right where you see the same 202 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 2: talking points echoed by that video. 203 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 3: Is amazing, Wow, amazing. Right, So this is we're talking 204 00:10:56,559 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 3: about a video that sint Clair. 205 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: They came up, by the way, recently was brought back 206 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 1: to the forefront by one Elon Musk, who was criticizing 207 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:09,600 Speaker 1: it for that it was group think, but it was 208 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 1: actually this conservative station called Sinclair had these must reads 209 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:18,959 Speaker 1: and every news anchor, no matter what if it was, 210 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 1: you know, Michigan or Wisconsin or Florida, had these same 211 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 1: must reads and they said the exact same thing the 212 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:28,960 Speaker 1: exact same way at the exact same time. 213 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 2: Right, exactly. Hilarious, like history collapsing in on itself. But yeah, 214 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:37,560 Speaker 2: the point being, it is a trusted medium. It's not 215 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:41,359 Speaker 2: something that really ever gets looked at in terms of investment. 216 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:45,559 Speaker 2: It has a reach, it has audience that relies on it, 217 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 2: it has high trust, and it's not a place where 218 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 2: we really have looked. But you have seen organizations like 219 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 2: Sinclair make investments in local TV and I think, you know, 220 00:11:57,400 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 2: move the need probably in key markets as a result 221 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:00,839 Speaker 2: of their coverage. 222 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 1: I think a lot about there's this one state where 223 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:07,320 Speaker 1: it's a small New England state, New England. It's a 224 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 1: small northeastern state where all of the local newspapers are 225 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 1: owned by the same guy. And you know, if a 226 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 1: conservative conglomerate AD buys them, that's it, right. 227 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 2: Right, It's a huge problem, and they often do so quilely. 228 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:28,080 Speaker 2: There's not a ton of pushback. And I think, you know, 229 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,840 Speaker 2: one thing that is frustrating sometimes when you think about 230 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 2: political spend, and we didn't approach this just as a 231 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 2: you know, we're Democrats and this is a political goal. 232 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 2: But when you think about political spending and the amount 233 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 2: of money that gets dumped into thads ads in the 234 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 2: final two weeks of an election, and you know, maybe 235 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 2: I'll never get work in Florida, but is it worth 236 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 2: you know, dumping fifty million dollars in the in the 237 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 2: final sprint for television ads, or should you invest in 238 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:01,199 Speaker 2: some actual infrastructure and look at this in a more 239 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 2: long term way? And I think pretty clear where I 240 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 2: would come down there. 241 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean I think that's a really good point. 242 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 1: You do see like there's so much money going into politics, 243 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 1: especially now that every candidate, or not every candidate, but 244 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 1: certainly in the GOP primary, each one of these candidates 245 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 1: has a pack, right. 246 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:23,440 Speaker 3: They have their own money, and then they have their 247 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:27,440 Speaker 3: pack money. So you really do see that there is. 248 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 1: A place, for sure for some sort of thoughtful spending, right, It's. 249 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 2: True in the political side too. And then part of 250 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:38,000 Speaker 2: the report, we also looked at what investment looks like 251 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 2: on just digital global digital ad spend, right even even 252 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 2: just divorced from politics, and you've got to market where 253 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 2: influencer sponsored content in twenty twenty two looked something like, 254 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 2: you know, sixteen billion dollars, which sounds like a huge 255 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 2: amount of money, but you compare it to the overall 256 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 2: global digital ad spend of six hundred billion dollars, and 257 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 2: it just seems like there's a bunch of efficiency there 258 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 2: that should be should be looked at and uncovered, and 259 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 2: I think that is one of the lessons we learned too, 260 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 2: is where is capital going and is it being effectively spent? 261 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 2: And then there are also questions embedded there of us 262 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 2: for us for media models of you know what do 263 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 2: these types of entities even look like? 264 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 1: Right? 265 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 2: Are they nonprofit newsrooms where I think we've seen an 266 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 2: awakening of a lot of local coverage through those vehicles. 267 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 2: Are they for profits that are our low profit you know, 268 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 2: you no longer looking at a news or media outlet 269 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 2: says something that you need to draw a large value from. 270 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 2: Or are they like journalists driven or influencer driven to 271 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 2: mediums like substack, you know that are sort of empowering 272 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 2: journalists in a way where you can build a really 273 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 2: loyal audience, sustain yourself. And they have some tools like 274 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 2: you know, a substack defender, which is a legal legal 275 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 2: shields or you know, legal access if you ever get 276 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 2: in trouble, you know, for some of your reporting. So 277 00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 2: I think that's a big that's a big part of 278 00:14:59,360 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 2: this report too. 279 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 3: Can people find this report? 280 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 2: Yes? How we have a really self descriptive website and 281 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 2: it's at Media Landscape report dot org. And nobody had 282 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 2: taken it. So we took and that's where this lives. 283 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 1: Yes, it is, like, I think, a really important thing 284 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 1: to be thinking about and to be thinking about how 285 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 1: people can get like just legitimate information that's real. Facebook 286 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 1: and Twitter, I mean Twitter now whatever. 287 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 3: I think we give up on Twitter at this point. 288 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 1: But Facebook had this opportunity to really like they had 289 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 1: killed local news and they could have really come in 290 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 1: and replaced it with like actual quality news, but instead 291 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 1: they decided not to. 292 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was you know, a companied of maybe a 293 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 2: year or so spaced apart to the metaverse, which is 294 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 2: like a cartoon video game. Guess that is our future, right, 295 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:01,960 Speaker 2: that's the social value we're getting there, which is bobbing. 296 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 2: But and it's also you know, for Googles, for Facebook, 297 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 2: for other platforms you're seeing for example in Canada, Australia. 298 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 2: California is considering legislation that would in some ways reimburse 299 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 2: publishers for content that gets shared. But you know, I 300 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 2: don't know, and it's a little bit out of the 301 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 2: purview of this whether or not that's a solution for 302 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:27,040 Speaker 2: funding local journalism. It feels like the genius is out 303 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 2: of the bottle there, and you've also got these platforms, 304 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 2: and this is a pressure that we heard from a 305 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 2: lot of folks who are individuals publishing their own content. 306 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 2: They're just at the whims of these platforms, right, Like, 307 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 2: in the world in which you are a writer, editor, 308 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 2: and distributor of your own content, Google can change something 309 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 2: in their algorithm and your entire model can be upended 310 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 2: and they won't even tell you about it. I mean, Facebook, 311 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 2: same thing, Twitter, same thing. What do the blue checks 312 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 2: even mean anymore? It's a little bit of like a 313 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 2: Wild West situation. And I do think part of the 314 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 2: reason that individuals have shifted back towards email is that 315 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 2: that feels a little bit more under control. Right, I 316 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:09,359 Speaker 2: am emailing you via substag, via ghost via medium work. 317 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 2: You can subsproud and support me if you. 318 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 1: Like, right, and that you feel like there's more object 319 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:16,119 Speaker 1: permanence to email. 320 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 2: Right exactly. 321 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 1: Oh that's really really interesting. Thank you so much, Tim. 322 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:22,640 Speaker 1: I hope you'll come back. 323 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, this was great. Thanks for having me. 324 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 1: Bradley Bonishi is an assistant professor of religion at Skidmore 325 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 1: College and the author of Preparing for War, The Extremist 326 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 1: History of White Christian nationalism and what comes next? 327 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 3: Welcome to Fast Politics, Bradley. 328 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, so talk to me about your book. 329 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:48,960 Speaker 4: Sure Preparing for War is I look at the history 330 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 4: of white Christian nationalism basically start with the Goldwater Campaign 331 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:55,160 Speaker 4: nineteen sixty four and we end with January sixth. Then 332 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 4: what comes next? And you know, for me, it's it's 333 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 4: pretty personal. I converted to a church that was a 334 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 4: white Christian nationalist church when I was fourteen. 335 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 2: I became a minister at twenty. 336 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 4: So when I watched January sixth, I thought maybe I 337 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:08,919 Speaker 4: could have been there, and that scared me. 338 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:11,439 Speaker 2: So as a scholar religion, I wanted to lay out the. 339 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:13,719 Speaker 4: Kind of history that led us to that point and 340 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:16,919 Speaker 4: show that, Yeah, it was definitely an aberration. It was 341 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:19,640 Speaker 4: definitely singular in American history, but there was a lot 342 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 4: of signs throughout the last decades that that's where we 343 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:23,440 Speaker 4: might be heading as a nation. 344 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 3: How did you change your course? 345 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, So when I was twenty, I was a full 346 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 2: time minister. 347 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:30,439 Speaker 4: I was married, I was in charge of like a 348 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:33,679 Speaker 4: couple hundred kids in a youth ministry at a megachurch. 349 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 2: You know, I just began reading and reading and reading. 350 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:37,159 Speaker 4: I you know, heard all the time that if you 351 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:39,200 Speaker 4: if you let your brain, it'll lead your heart away 352 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:40,959 Speaker 4: from God. And I don't know if that's true, but 353 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 4: I definitely had a more expansive understanding of the world. 354 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 4: After investigating history and philosophy and theology, I went to 355 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:51,159 Speaker 4: Oxford to get a degree, and that obviously changed everything 356 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:53,880 Speaker 4: for me. So I began to realize that the faith 357 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 4: I'd been brought into was more about a conservative political 358 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:00,360 Speaker 4: agenda and a certain myth of the United States than 359 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 4: you know, something about a timeless faith. 360 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:04,719 Speaker 2: And that's when things really really changed. 361 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 3: Was there one specific thing that did it? A book? 362 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:09,200 Speaker 4: There was a lot of moments, but you know, one 363 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:12,119 Speaker 4: moment was really the John Carey George W. Bush election. 364 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 4: I was convinced I was going to vote for John Carey, 365 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 4: and I told all my elders at church, you know, look, 366 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:19,280 Speaker 4: I just think this is somebody who has a vision 367 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:20,960 Speaker 4: for the country that's just more in line with what 368 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 4: Jesus teaches. And they said, hey, great, that sounds wonderful 369 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:26,440 Speaker 4: for you. But he is pro choice, and if you 370 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 4: vote for someone like that, you and along with everyone else, 371 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 4: will be responsible for the murder of millions of unborn babies. 372 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 4: So if you want that on your conscience, then go ahead. 373 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 4: Otherwise I would think about it a little harder. And 374 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:40,680 Speaker 4: you know, for me, that was a moment, a watershed moment, 375 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:43,440 Speaker 4: because I realized that we'd reduced some of the most 376 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 4: complex issues of our public square, the human condition, to 377 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:49,639 Speaker 4: either or this or that. There was no nuance, there 378 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 4: was no detail, there was no compassion, And after that whole, 379 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 4: you know, set of events, I was really on a 380 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 4: different path. 381 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: It's so interesting because I constantly have this argument conway 382 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:04,439 Speaker 1: about abortion, and you know, I wonder how much of 383 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:07,239 Speaker 1: it is like nurture in a way it is. 384 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 4: I mean, I think the trick is convincing people, as 385 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:12,640 Speaker 4: I was at one time, that life begins a conception, 386 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:15,439 Speaker 4: and that that is a fact that has been not 387 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:18,719 Speaker 4: only scientifically proven, but has been taught by the Christian 388 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 4: Church for two thousand years. And as long as people 389 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 4: buy that simple piece of teaching or propaganda, however we 390 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:27,440 Speaker 4: want to frame it, it's really hard to get them 391 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:30,200 Speaker 4: back from the brink because anything you say is simply, 392 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:32,919 Speaker 4: in their ears, a pro murder agenda. And that is 393 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 4: the tragic effectiveness of that approach. 394 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 3: Yeah's unbelievable. 395 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:39,439 Speaker 1: Talk to me about Goldwater, because I want to talk 396 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 1: about Goldwater. You know, there's this chicken of the egg 397 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:45,159 Speaker 1: thing with trump Ism, like was it Trump? 398 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 3: Was it Nixon? Was it Goldwater? 399 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 1: Where did Republicans start to go wildly off the rails? 400 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 1: Though there's an argument to be made that they were 401 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 1: always off the rails, but yes. 402 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:56,480 Speaker 2: Go on for sure. 403 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 4: And I think for me Goldwater was a nice place 404 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 4: to start because Goldwater really appears on the scene after 405 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:05,440 Speaker 4: two decades of either a Democratic president or Dwight eis 406 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 4: At Howard, who's famous for his Middle Way. Hey, you know, 407 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:10,160 Speaker 4: Goldwater shows up and says, look, we want it our 408 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:13,399 Speaker 4: way and we won't compromise. And you know, he's just 409 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 4: this magnetic force. He's got a big baritone voice and 410 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:19,920 Speaker 4: a square jaw, and he's you know, supposedly a cowboy senator, 411 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:24,159 Speaker 4: and he's willing just to say bombastic and outrageous things. 412 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:28,359 Speaker 4: You know, we're gonna use nuclear weapons in Vietnam. There's 413 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:30,720 Speaker 4: no way I'm going to sign legislation for civil rights 414 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:33,439 Speaker 4: and so on. And when he accepts the nomination, you know, 415 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 4: the most famous line in San Francisco at the GOB 416 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 4: Convention is extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. 417 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:42,640 Speaker 4: And he's basically setting the stage for the next six 418 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 4: decades by saying, Look, we're in the midst of a 419 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 4: decade here in the sixties, or in the midst of 420 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:51,119 Speaker 4: a time of what feels like change. If you're gonna 421 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:53,439 Speaker 4: keep your country, if you're gonna get your country back, 422 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 4: extremism is your approach. And you know, he got destroyed 423 00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 4: in his race against Lynnon Johnson, but the foot soldiers 424 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 4: of that campaign never forgot those lessons. You know, Paul 425 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 4: Wirick was like a twenty one year old kid at 426 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:07,920 Speaker 4: that point, and he goes on to found the Council 427 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:12,160 Speaker 4: for National Policy, the Heritage Foundation and ALEC. So Goldwater's 428 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 4: really for me this moment of Hey, white Christian men, 429 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:17,679 Speaker 4: if you want your country, extremism is the way to 430 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:20,120 Speaker 4: do it. And you know, there's a line from there 431 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:22,920 Speaker 4: that kind of brings us into the present from Goldwater. 432 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:25,639 Speaker 3: Just give me a little bit trace it, keep going. 433 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure, I'm from southern California and Goldwater is 434 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 4: a place where he gets just a ton of support 435 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 4: from that part of the country. But you know, Goldwater 436 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 4: sets the stage for a Republican party that embraces extremism, 437 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:41,800 Speaker 4: that sees moderation as something to be avoided as a vice. 438 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 4: And he sort of inspires a whole generation of a 439 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:49,640 Speaker 4: Republican party that understands something. And this is where Wyrick 440 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 4: and his cohorts and the Council for National Policy really 441 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 4: were genius. If they can combine what is an essence, 442 00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 4: a right wing libertarian agenda, with the voting power of 443 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:03,679 Speaker 4: millions of white conservative Christians, then they can occupy the 444 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:05,920 Speaker 4: GOP and eventually occupy the country. 445 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:06,920 Speaker 2: And that's what they do. 446 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:09,640 Speaker 4: And so if we go from Goldwater all the way 447 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 4: fifteen years later to the Carter Reagan election, we see 448 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 4: another foreshadowing of Trump. Jimmy Carter is like built in 449 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 4: a lab. If you're a white Christian, you know he's 450 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:18,480 Speaker 4: your guy. 451 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 2: He's a Southern. 452 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:23,199 Speaker 4: Baptist by birds right, Yeah, your rural Georgia peanut farmer, 453 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 4: Mary's his high school sweetheart, goes into the Milletary. I mean, 454 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:28,400 Speaker 4: what else do you want from this man? If you're 455 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 4: a white Christian to vote for him? And yet who 456 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,200 Speaker 4: do they vote for? They vote for the divorce Hollywood 457 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:37,439 Speaker 4: actor who at one point was pretty good, you know, 458 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:39,679 Speaker 4: into abortion as the governor of California. 459 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:40,800 Speaker 3: Right, he was the guy. 460 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:44,199 Speaker 1: Who ended no fault divorces, which is one of the 461 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:45,959 Speaker 1: most progressive legislations. 462 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:50,359 Speaker 4: Weirdly, right, it's wild. It's absolutely wild to think of, 463 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:52,920 Speaker 4: you know, Reagan as the golden child of the religious 464 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:55,440 Speaker 4: right and the Council for National Policy and everyone we're 465 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:58,919 Speaker 4: talking about. But they chose power over piety, right. You know, 466 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 4: so when you go from Goldwater to that and you 467 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 4: start looking at Trump, you're like, wow, I see a 468 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 4: lot of Goldwater and a lot of Reagan in this 469 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:07,679 Speaker 4: man who eventually becomes worse than all of them. But 470 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 4: it's no accident, you know, it's not like there was 471 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:11,399 Speaker 4: no historical precedent for this. 472 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 3: Right. So interesting, I mean, it's funny because it's like 473 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 3: you really. 474 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 1: Do see that the difference between Reagan and Carter, right, 475 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:23,679 Speaker 1: the guy who's so right, and then the difference between 476 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 1: Trump and Biden, right, Biden, who like was the poorest senator, 477 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 1: it speaks to really, you know, the sort of hypocrisy 478 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 1: of the Republican Party. 479 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 4: It's repeating itself in the sense that you know, Biden. 480 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 4: And I know everyone's going to have their different views 481 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 4: on this, whether good or bad. But Biden's like one 482 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:42,360 Speaker 4: of the most religious presidents. I mean, the man goes 483 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:44,359 Speaker 4: the Mass numerous times per week. 484 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 3: You know, he is very inter religion. 485 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, and then you know Josh Holly and the folks 486 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:51,920 Speaker 4: are saying if if you bring up God on the left, 487 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:54,640 Speaker 4: they laugh at you. And it's like, and again, I 488 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 4: I'm not here to debate whether it's good or bad. 489 00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:58,560 Speaker 4: Biden's so religious. I'm just here to say it's the 490 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 4: same thing playing out of again for sure. 491 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, as someone who is not religious, who grew up 492 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:08,640 Speaker 1: not religious. My family Jewish, atheist, communists. But you do 493 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 1: really see that Biden is quite religious. I mean it 494 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,359 Speaker 1: speaks to this idea. And again I don't love this, 495 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 1: but it is it's worth mentioning. Is that there was 496 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,879 Speaker 1: always you know, this anxiety I think underlying anxiety that 497 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 1: Trump was actually I mean, he's obviously not. I mean, 498 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,440 Speaker 1: if you think about who has probably had more experience 499 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:29,439 Speaker 1: in our lives with abortion, Trump or Biden. So you 500 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 1: got out, you became an academic, Tell me a little 501 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 1: bit more about your story. 502 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:38,160 Speaker 4: Sure, I'd become somebody who studies religion from a historical perspective, 503 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 4: from a sociological perspective, and during the Trump years, I 504 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 4: wanted to kind of find a way to help people 505 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,159 Speaker 4: decode how all this happened from a religious perspective. And 506 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:50,680 Speaker 4: so we started our show Straight Wide American Jesus. And 507 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:52,879 Speaker 4: we don't think Jesus was straight white or American, but 508 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:55,399 Speaker 4: we want to know why so many people do and 509 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 4: why they see the image of Jesus and Trump and 510 00:25:57,880 --> 00:25:59,679 Speaker 4: what we offer. And I think for me, this is 511 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:01,720 Speaker 4: what I I'm always sort of telling folks is I've 512 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 4: lived this. I've been on the inside, and I can 513 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,360 Speaker 4: help you understand that. And I've now spent twenty years 514 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 4: studying it from the outside, and so we can give 515 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:11,920 Speaker 4: the long historical view, we can also give the insider view. 516 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,880 Speaker 4: And so yeah, I spent the last five years basically 517 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 4: every waking hour analyzing their every corner of the religious 518 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 4: bride and Christian nationalism in a country and basically trying 519 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:24,639 Speaker 4: to warn folks about what I take to be a 520 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 4: proto fascist movement. 521 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,159 Speaker 1: What is the single sort of scariest thing that you 522 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 1: think when you think of this proto fascist. 523 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 4: Movement Democracy is not a sacred value to this group. 524 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 4: Democracy is not the goal, the goal's power. The goal 525 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 4: is to have dominion over the United States, and if 526 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 4: democracy needs to be done away with in order for 527 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 4: that to happen, they're completely fine with that. And I 528 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,360 Speaker 4: can show you the evidence. I mean, democracy is a problem, 529 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:52,439 Speaker 4: not a solution for many of the folks that I 530 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:57,239 Speaker 4: that I'm talking about, and that's overwhelmingly scary. And the 531 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 4: tentacles of that position just sort of go every where 532 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 4: in terms of dehumanizing migrants, dehumanizing trans folks, in terms 533 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:08,399 Speaker 4: of being willing to follow an authoritarian leader, being willing 534 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 4: to write a rough shot over democratic norms and processes. 535 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 4: So if democracy is a problem and not a solution 536 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:16,919 Speaker 4: for you, then it's really hard to have a public 537 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 4: square that is healthy or safe at all. And I 538 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 4: think for me that's what it comes down to. 539 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 3: So interesting, Bradley, I hope you. 540 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:27,440 Speaker 2: Will come back, of course, anytime. 541 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,679 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in 542 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday to hear the best minds 543 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:38,199 Speaker 1: in politics makes sense of all this chaos. If you 544 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 1: enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to a friend 545 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. And again thanks for listening.