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Speaker 2: All Right, welcome to hoops tonight. You're at the volume.

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Speaker 2: Happy Tuesday, everybody. Oh off, all of you guys are

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Speaker 2: having a great start to your week. Well, my friend,

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Speaker 2: my good friend, Sam Vessini is coming on the show,

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Speaker 2: and we have a very fun kind of format for today,

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Speaker 2: and it's kind of unusual. Under the circumstances, the thunder

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Speaker 2: are a massive favorite to win the NBA Finals. They

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Speaker 2: are currently minus seven hundred and so under those circumstances,

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Speaker 2: we talked and we came to the conclusion that it

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Speaker 2: would be a fun exercise to pretend that Sam and

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Speaker 2: I are the coaches of the Indiana Pacers and we

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Speaker 2: are attempting to come up with a game plan that

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Speaker 2: might give us the best chance to win this particular series. Sam,

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Speaker 2: before we even get started, how are you doing, man?

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Speaker 2: We haven't talked in a long time. It's been a very,

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Speaker 2: very busy few months. But it's so nice to have

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Speaker 2: you back on the show.

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Speaker 1: It's great to be here. It's busy. I finally just

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Speaker 1: finished the draft Guide, which means I'm like up for

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Speaker 1: air now. I finally can you know, relax a little

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Speaker 1: bit on top of you know, all of the crazy

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Speaker 1: recording that Bryce and I have done, where we're going

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Speaker 1: live every other night for the playoffs is the schedule

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Speaker 1: we've done in the playoffs. So it's good to be

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Speaker 1: up for air, and it's good to chat with you again.

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Speaker 1: Like I feel terrible, like we haven't even caught up

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Speaker 1: on the phone because I've just been like literally in

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Speaker 1: front of my computer. This is the time of year

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Speaker 1: where I put on like eight pounds or nine pounds

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Speaker 1: just because I have to watch so much tape, like

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Speaker 1: to stay above water on both I finally get to

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Speaker 1: go to the gym after we're done with this, It's

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Speaker 1: gonna be great. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I was gonna say I stopped playing as much basketball

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Speaker 2: for a while there in like April and May, and

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Speaker 2: like I was starting to not play as we well,

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Speaker 2: started to get a little down on myself. I was like,

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Speaker 2: I need to get some of this routine back in motion.

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Speaker 2: And thankfully in the finals we space out a little

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Speaker 2: bit so before we get into our exercise, I couldn't

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Speaker 2: help but think after the finals were set about a

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Speaker 2: conversation you and I had on this show right after

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Speaker 2: the NBA Finals last year. We discussed this. I asked

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Speaker 2: you what your biggest lesson you learned from the playoffs was,

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Speaker 2: and we both had like similar answers that were like

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Speaker 2: in different kind of like they were more or less

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Speaker 2: meaning the same thing. But the answer you came up

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Speaker 2: with was ground coverage and essentially having to do with

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Speaker 2: speed and the ability to cover ground in rotation because

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Speaker 2: of the idea that in order to do anything to

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Speaker 2: make a star uncomfortable, you have to do a certain

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Speaker 2: amount of aggressive loading up and that inherently puts you

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Speaker 2: into these rotation situations. And then there's also just the

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Speaker 2: reality of how much of the game is being played.

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Speaker 2: In transition, I kind of became obsessed around the idea

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Speaker 2: of perimeter speed. This was a concept that I was

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Speaker 2: hitting on a lot around the same time, and it

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Speaker 2: more or less means the same thing. But I can't

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Speaker 2: help but notice that we have these two teams that

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Speaker 2: are not particularly big, but that have a depth of

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Speaker 2: perimeter speed and the ability to cover ground in rotation

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Speaker 2: that vastly supersedes some of the other teams that we've

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Speaker 2: seen around the league. And so I my first question

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Speaker 2: for you is just what have you really learned from

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Speaker 2: this particular postseason run with Indiana in Oklahoma City ending

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Speaker 2: up in the finals. Does it legitimize anything about your

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Speaker 2: big picture basketball worldview.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that that is a really good point

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Speaker 1: in terms of the ground coverage defensively, and look, I've

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Speaker 1: been obsessed with this for a couple of years now,

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Speaker 1: for sure. I think I would add to it and

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Speaker 1: just say that I think every team needs a five

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Speaker 1: out look at the very least, like it might not

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Speaker 1: be your primary designation, but to at least have the

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Speaker 1: look to be able to go five out at all times.

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Speaker 1: Otherwise it's just really hard to be able to survive

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Speaker 1: in the NBA currently because you need different kinds of

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Speaker 1: adjustments you need to be able to make depending on

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Speaker 1: the situation. You know, against the Lakers, Minnesota really thrived

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Speaker 1: by loading up and being able to play as big

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Speaker 1: as possible, but you know, in other situations they certainly

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Speaker 1: needed to be able to go five out and be

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Speaker 1: able to play multiple different offensive looks more than anything.

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Speaker 1: So being able to go five out would be what

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Speaker 1: I would add at any point, even if it's not

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Speaker 1: your primary look. I would hope that it's your primary look,

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Speaker 1: to be frank, but I think you can make it

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Speaker 1: work without it being your primary look.

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Speaker 2: The other thing that kind of stood out to me

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Speaker 2: was just depth. Yeah, Jackson and I were talking on

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Speaker 2: playback the other night just this. You know, there's all

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Speaker 2: this low hanging fruit in basketball, in terms of things

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Speaker 2: like picking up full court to make people uncomfortable, in

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Speaker 2: terms of like being able to to play an incredibly

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Speaker 2: hillacious pace, in terms of really having like an overall

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Speaker 2: expectation that everyone in your lineup is allowed to be aggressive,

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Speaker 2: that everyone in your lineup is allowed to turn the

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Speaker 2: corner and look to score. And I think that there's

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Speaker 2: a reality that you need depth in order to do that.

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Speaker 2: And I think what stood out to me as like

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Speaker 2: a counter example was the Knicks with Tom Thibodeaux, where

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Speaker 2: all year long he's emphasizing heavy minutes for starters under

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Speaker 2: the guys of conditioning. But all year long, those guys

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Speaker 2: were not sharp on the details, in large part because

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Speaker 2: they had to play such heavy minute loads. And so

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Speaker 2: I'm not saying it's the end all be all, because

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Speaker 2: I do think it's possible for you to have success

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Speaker 2: in the NBA without a ton of depth, especially if

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Speaker 2: you've got like six rock solid players. The Celtics famously

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Speaker 2: last year they're like a pretty tight eight man rotation,

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Speaker 2: and towards the end they were leaning pretty heavily on

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Speaker 2: their top six guys, But I think there's some reality

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Speaker 2: to the fact that you can exploit more of that

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Speaker 2: low hanging fruit by having a good ten to eleven

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Speaker 2: man rotation of guys that can at least succeed within

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Speaker 2: your scheme on both ends of the floor.

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Speaker 1: Well, the other way to exploit that low hanging fruit,

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Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought up the low hanging fruit idea

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Speaker 1: is something that both Indiana and The Thunder honestly do

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Speaker 1: maybe better than anybody, And that's like spurt ability, right,

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Speaker 1: the ability to just go on these crazy runs and

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Speaker 1: create points off of turnovers immediately. I believe that Indiana

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Speaker 1: and the Thunder right now are currently first and second

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Speaker 1: in the playoffs and points per game off of turnovers, right,

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Speaker 1: and you look at the way that the series is gonna,

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Speaker 1: you know, flow. In my opinion, it's going to be

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Speaker 1: based on the idea of the turnover battle, because nobody

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Speaker 1: does a better job of forcing turnovers than Oklahoma City,

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Speaker 1: and arguably nobody does a better job of reducing turnovers

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Speaker 1: than Indiana, right, So like that battle, to me, is

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Speaker 1: going to be the key to this series. But Indiana,

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Speaker 1: I think is a really underrated team in terms of

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Speaker 1: forcing points off turnovers, just because while they don't like

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Speaker 1: force an insane number of them, they're always lethal in

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Speaker 1: how they execute off of them. They are so intentional

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Speaker 1: in the way that they go about finding mismatches if

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Speaker 1: you have anything to exploit, they are incredible at finding

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Speaker 1: different cross matches in transition to be able to attack.

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Speaker 1: That's just the reality of what they do is because

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Speaker 1: they have Haliburton and Emhard, both of whom have grown

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Speaker 1: up playing in these uptempo schemes as point guards. Right,

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Speaker 1: they have this incredible ability to always find the cross match.

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Speaker 1: Both of those guys are really sharp, knowing exactly where

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Speaker 1: the advantage is. Gonzaga played it one of the fastest

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Speaker 1: tempos in the league or in the country under Andrew Nemhard, Right,

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Speaker 1: Tyrese Haliburton's been playing this way for years, Right, he

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Speaker 1: just knows how to handle it. Having multiple ball handlers

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Speaker 1: out there who can all shoot, who can all make

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Speaker 1: decisions at the end of the day, Like, what this

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Speaker 1: comes down to for me on some level is a

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Speaker 1: the ground coverage and be just decision making in general.

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Speaker 1: The ability to to process the court like basketball in

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Speaker 1: the court at such a high level is so incredibly important.

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Speaker 1: It's why we've seen Alex Caruso just you know, elevate

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Speaker 1: his game even further in the playoffs this year. It's

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Speaker 1: why we see guys like chet Holm Grant at the

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Speaker 1: center position be able to you know, make decisions faster

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Speaker 1: than other centers in my opinion, play such a critical

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Speaker 1: role for them. Isaiah Hartenstein's a very good decision maker

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Speaker 1: for a big for Oklahoma City. On the other side,

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Speaker 1: I would argue that Miles Turner is just so well

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Speaker 1: drilled within that scheme at this point. Pascal Siakam is

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Speaker 1: so problematic in terms of creating mismatches, but he also

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Speaker 1: makes good decisions as well in terms of when to

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Speaker 1: attack those mismatches. The ability to process basketball is just

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Speaker 1: absolutely critical to me. It is the number one thing

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Speaker 1: to me that these two teams, particularly beyond not really

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Speaker 1: having like a weak link on the court to really attack.

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Speaker 1: That's what these two teams do better than anybody in

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Speaker 1: my opinion.

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Speaker 2: Well, and with the way they play defense, they're gearing

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Speaker 2: everything around, rushing you and getting you to make mistakes

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Speaker 2: as decision makers. And like we were blown away when

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Speaker 2: we would watch film from the Knick series how often

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Speaker 2: they would have like really poor spacing where there'd be

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Speaker 2: nobody above the break for some reason, which was the

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Speaker 2: number one culprit of their transition defense issues. And then

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Speaker 2: they'd have like Mitchell Robinson in one dunker spot and

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Speaker 2: ogn and Obie in the other dunker spot, and Kat

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Speaker 2: just set a ball screen for Brunson and for some

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Speaker 2: reason he's rolling and You're like, You're like, what the

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Speaker 2: fuck are you guys doing? Like this is there's so

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Speaker 2: many like simple things like that where it's like when

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Speaker 2: you watch the Celtics when they were at their best,

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Speaker 2: and I actually think the Thunder are an underrated kind

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Speaker 2: of like spacing relocating team. They they just kind of

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Speaker 2: whirl around off the ball really well. But like there

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Speaker 2: they're just so much sharper with the little decisions about

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Speaker 2: where they relocate to where they space to where they

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Speaker 2: cut from. Like how you know one of the reasons

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Speaker 2: why they're such good transition defense is is their ability

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Speaker 2: to kind of make sure they always have their floor

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Speaker 2: balance set up well.

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Speaker 1: Speaking that point, like I saw, you know, your volume

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Speaker 1: colleague Jeff Tigue bring up that like when he played

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Speaker 1: for TIBs. Like Tibbs, isn't you know, wildly intentional about

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Speaker 1: these things? Right? Like he just like kind of says

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Speaker 1: go and then just yells damn a whole lot, right, uh.

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Speaker 1: Like the intentionality is really critical to me, like having

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Speaker 1: intentional spacing, and that's why, like, to me, I kind

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Speaker 1: of understand, like, even though the Nicks just went to

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Speaker 1: the conference finals, if they want to move on from TIBs, Like,

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Speaker 1: I'm not gonna sit here and complain. I thought he

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Speaker 1: coached an incredibly poor series against the Indiana Pacers, just

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Speaker 1: both in terms of the lineups he decided to utilize

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Speaker 1: going two bigs against that transition attack, and then additionally,

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Speaker 1: the intentionality of the spacing just feels totally wrong all

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Speaker 1: the time to me with them, not not all the time,

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Speaker 1: but too often, let's go with for a team that

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Speaker 1: is as talented as they are. So when I look

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Speaker 1: at these two teams, I think that what stands out,

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Speaker 1: you know, of what I've said so far is the coaching.

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Speaker 1: These two coaches are two of the top five coaches

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Speaker 1: in the league. And I actually wonder I think for

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Speaker 1: a while we were at a point where there were

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Speaker 1: like five really elite coaches, right, like guys that I

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Speaker 1: thought really moved the needle for you, And then I

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Speaker 1: thought there were like five or six, like not great

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Speaker 1: coaches that moved the needle negatively, and then everybody else

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Speaker 1: is kind of in the middle. Right. I actually wonder

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Speaker 1: if in this new era of basketball where intentionality in

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Speaker 1: regard to spacing, in terms of tempo, in terms of rotations,

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Speaker 1: in terms of making sure you don't have like a

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Speaker 1: week link on the court regularly, I think we might

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Speaker 1: be at a point now where coaching is actually starting

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Speaker 1: to become more important even than what we had been

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Speaker 1: thinking of it as being previously, because that intentionality in spacing,

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Speaker 1: in rotational alignment is so critical now in the biggest

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Speaker 1: moments in the playoffs.

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Speaker 2: No agree like this low hanging fruit stuff. It's not

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Speaker 2: based on like just easily attainable points that everyone in

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Speaker 2: the league is known about for decades. It's a lot

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Speaker 2: about how the game has changed. Like the Boston was

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Speaker 2: able to tow the line of being an elite offensive

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Speaker 2: rebounding team and an elite transition defense. Why because they

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Speaker 2: utilize these corner crashes towards the elbows. Because they understood

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Speaker 2: this is where the ball most frequently comes off of

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Speaker 2: the rim, and it also is kind of like a

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Speaker 2: runway for our transition defense. The top two guys get back.

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Speaker 2: These guys crashing out of the corners can kind of

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Speaker 2: whirl up the floor after they make that crash, And

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Speaker 2: there's just like this kind of understanding that, like, Okay,

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Speaker 2: every time we play in transition, we're twenty percent more efficient,

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Speaker 2: So why would we not hunt that at every single

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Speaker 2: opportunity that we have. You mentioned the cross matches like.

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Speaker 1: Literally antithesis of that, Jason. Defensively as well, with your spacing,

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Speaker 1: the Knicks constantly had like four five guys below the

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Speaker 1: foul line chasing offensive rebounds against the Pacers as well,

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Speaker 1: So like that, it's not just spacing from an offensive perspective,

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Speaker 1: it is actually kind of spacing from a defensive perspective too,

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Speaker 1: and making sure that you're able to stop the low

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Speaker 1: hanging fruit on the other end too.

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Speaker 2: It's yeah, it's like we've just we've been talking so

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Speaker 2: much about the things that they've been taking advantage of.

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Speaker 2: To your point, both the Pacers and the Thunder are

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Speaker 2: great at not turning the ball over. Yes, both this

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Speaker 2: is these are all like readily attainable things and so

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Speaker 2: like this is one of the things that US Laker

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Speaker 2: fans were bitching and moaning about NonStop with respect to

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Speaker 2: JJ Reddick versus Darvin Ham is, like JJ did not

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Speaker 2: do a good job in this postseason run, and he's

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Speaker 2: got obviously playoff game planning and adjustments to figure out

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Speaker 2: at a higher level than what he figured that what

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Speaker 2: he had this year. And uh, but like JJ at

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Speaker 2: the very least came in from day one and was like,

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Speaker 2: we're gonna harp on these details. So and they suddenly

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Speaker 2: were a better team. And like shake gives as Alexander

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Speaker 2: and his MVP speech mentioning how Dagnault was just a

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Speaker 2: pain in the end, Like that stuff is all incredibly

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Speaker 2: important to maximizing, especially when the margins are smaller too,

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Speaker 2: Like this isn't the this isn't what it was ten

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Speaker 2: years ago, where the Calves and the Warriors are so

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Speaker 2: clearly better than everyone that everyone else is just kind

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Speaker 2: of fighting for second place in their conference. Like this

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Speaker 2: is every if you look at these the playoff field

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Speaker 2: this year kind of felt like anybody could get it done.

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Speaker 2: And here we are. We're with Indiana and Oklahoma City

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Speaker 2: and Oklahoma City was this close to losing in the

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Speaker 2: second round. Like, these are very very tight margins. By

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Speaker 2: the way, Oklahoma City was this close to losing in

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Speaker 2: the second round in a series where they had twenty

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Speaker 2: seven points per game off of turnovers. So, like, you

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Speaker 2: tell me whether or not low hanging fruit matters in

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Speaker 2: the NBA. But let's get Let's get to this series.

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Speaker 2: And so you and I are the coaching staff. We

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Speaker 2: are trying to figure out who's the lead assistant Indiana

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Speaker 2: right now? Do you know off the top of your hand.

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Speaker 1: I think they do different things for different ends of

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Speaker 1: the court, Like Jake Boose coordinators I know does the

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Speaker 1: defensive side. I can't remember who does the offensive side.

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Speaker 1: I feel like Rick does a good amount of the

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Speaker 1: offensive side, but I can't remember who they are, Like

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Speaker 1: coordinator is on that.

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Speaker 2: End, gotcha. So we're sitting down in our coaches meeting,

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Speaker 2: we're focusing on the offensive end of the floor. I

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Speaker 2: wrote down a couple ideas and I'm gonna just give

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Speaker 2: one of them to you right now. We'll just kind

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Speaker 2: of go from there. So I have a feeling that

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Speaker 2: this series ends with Chet at the five there's some

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Speaker 2: pretty strong data from the regular season that Isaiah Hartenstein

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Speaker 2: struggles to guard this team. Not hard to figure out why.

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Speaker 2: The traditional bigs that are not like apex athletes like

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Speaker 2: Mitchell Robinson are gonna struggle to a certain extent in

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Speaker 2: this type of whirling dervish type of offense. So I

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Speaker 2: think it's gonna be a lot of Chet at the

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Speaker 2: five alongside four perimeter type of players. So I think

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Speaker 2: it's vitally important for the Pacers to force Chet to

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Speaker 2: guard on the perimeter as much as possible. So my

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Speaker 2: next question, if I first pitched to you, is this,

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Speaker 2: should Indiana consider going small in this series?

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Speaker 1: In what respect? So are we talking like Toppin' and Pascal?

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Speaker 1: Are we talking, you know, like they go four perimeter

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Speaker 1: guys in like Nie Smith at the four? Small? Like

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Speaker 1: how small?

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Speaker 2: I would say, like a good amount of Siakaman top.

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Speaker 2: And then for the record, this is not this is

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Speaker 2: not like we start the game this way. This is

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Speaker 2: like does the game tilt towards we are because we

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Speaker 2: haven't even got to the other end of the floor.

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Speaker 2: They did struggle a little bit in ball screens, especially

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Speaker 2: with Heart and stegin getting behind and I think that's

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Speaker 2: gonna happen a lot with Chat as well. So, like

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Speaker 2: my idea behind the Pacers going small is the true

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Speaker 2: switch ability to be able to switch ball screens and

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Speaker 2: prevent the easy kind of reads that Indiana or that

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Speaker 2: Oklahoma City can make in pick and roll, but also

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Speaker 2: the ability to consistently force Chat to guard on the perimeter.

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Speaker 2: I think that Indiana is gonna be able to get

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Speaker 2: a certain amount of like pick and pop type of

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Speaker 2: stuff with Miles Turner, but I think that Okay c

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Speaker 2: He's gonna live with chasing him off with just a

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Speaker 2: late closeout. And so what I'm I'm wondering is could

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Speaker 2: you actually force Chet to guard in more action and

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Speaker 2: force them to guard in the perimeter more by going small,

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Speaker 2: especially with a team that's not particularly big in any case.

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Speaker 1: So I don't mind this idea. In general, the Pacers

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Speaker 1: have really taken advantage of Biggs in the playoffs. This

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Speaker 1: you know, entire run from Mitchell Robinson to like Jared

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Speaker 1: Allen never being able to figure out that Tyres Haliburton

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Speaker 1: only goes right right like they have really really struggled. Uh,

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Speaker 1: They've really taken advantage of that and other teams have

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Speaker 1: struggled to deal with them. I don't so like almost

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Speaker 1: the way I'm gonna think of this as like, you know,

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Speaker 1: you you bring up this idea, and like I'm trying

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Speaker 1: to think of like it from Oklahoma City's perspective, because

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Speaker 1: so much of this is a chess game, right, You're

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out what the counters are going to

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Speaker 1: be ahead of the counters, right, So if you go small, right,

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Speaker 1: do you think that a Siakam based five unit is

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Speaker 1: going to be capable of taking advantage of Hartenstein enough?

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Speaker 1: Is my question, because if I'm the thunder at that point,

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Speaker 1: I'm just crashing Hartenstein to the glass on the offensive

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Speaker 1: end fairly regularly, especially with how I'm assuming you're gonna

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Speaker 1: have to play defensively, where you're gonna have to play a

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Speaker 1: little bit more like shell coverages as opposed to like

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Speaker 1: getting aggressive and trying to force turnovers because Oklahom City

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Speaker 1: doesn't really do that. So that would create like potentially

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Speaker 1: more situations where Hartenstein might be able to crash the

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Speaker 1: offensive glass a little bit easier. I do agree with

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Speaker 1: your point that like the Hartenstein minutes will probably only

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Speaker 1: be like twenty ye or so a game. But like,

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Speaker 1: if you're going smaller, do I just match and go

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Speaker 1: bigger with Hartenstein and Chet and say, okay, can Siakam

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Speaker 1: beat Hartenstein in a mismatched situation? My guess is yes,

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Speaker 1: But like at what level? Would be my question to you?

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Speaker 2: So Hart and Sign was matched up with Siakam one

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Speaker 2: on one quite a few times and transition cross matches.

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Speaker 2: In the film that I was watching, I actually thought

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Speaker 2: Siakam had some success, just like getting downhill against him.

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Speaker 2: There was a little bit of like there were a

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Speaker 2: few plays where Siakam tried to draw fouls and it

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Speaker 2: didn't work. But I actually liked Siakham's attack attacks against

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Speaker 2: Oklahoma City's Biggs. But the point you' bringing up about

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Speaker 2: Hart and Stein is fair. I think the way that

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Speaker 2: I would think of it is, in this theoretical scenario,

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Speaker 2: the Pacers have played Hart and Sign off the floor

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Speaker 2: and then they go small. So essentially it would be

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Speaker 2: almost like mirroring Miles Turner's Minutes to Heart and Sign,

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Speaker 2: if that makes sense.

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Speaker 1: The other thing that we have to talk about here

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Speaker 1: in any of the minutes that we watched on film,

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Speaker 1: because I have watched the other games as well, like

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Speaker 1: the games from the regular season which Oklahoma City went

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Speaker 1: to and the game in March was like a twenty

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Speaker 1: point beating and Chet did not play in either of

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Speaker 1: these games. Is like the like basically everybody else, Like

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Speaker 1: I think Ben Matherin missed one of the games as well,

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Speaker 1: but like basically everybody else played in these games. So

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Speaker 1: like we have like a decent sample here, but Chet

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Speaker 1: did not play and that does like really fundamentally change

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Speaker 1: a lot for the way that Indiana is gonna be

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Speaker 1: able to match up. I think what worries me about this?

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Speaker 1: And I don't even know that you're wrong, Like I

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Speaker 1: think that it's potentially their best option. I think it's

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Speaker 1: potentially Indiana's best option. Is I do think Chet is

435
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:32,920
Speaker 1: better at guarding on the perimeter than like, you know,

436
00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:40,280
Speaker 1: Carl Towns, and then you know anybody like Jared Allen,

437
00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:42,080
Speaker 1: like any of these other guys that they played, right,

438
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:46,000
Speaker 1: So what would worry me about this is you're just like, Okay,

439
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:48,200
Speaker 1: we're just gonna play drop with Chet, and we're gonna

440
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,520
Speaker 1: play at the level. Maybe with Chet you're gonna try

441
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:54,760
Speaker 1: and what like slip Siakam behind him maybe to get

442
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:57,000
Speaker 1: like an easy mismatch at times, maybe you try and

443
00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:00,520
Speaker 1: run like a quick, little like slide action where it's

444
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:02,440
Speaker 1: just like a quick little ghost pick and pop kind

445
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:04,520
Speaker 1: of thing in order to catch him. I think Indiana

446
00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:06,960
Speaker 1: does a really good job of differentiating the kinds of

447
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:13,800
Speaker 1: ball screens that they run. For sure, maybe like it

448
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:15,560
Speaker 1: might be their best option is to go small. It's

449
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:17,560
Speaker 1: just the issue is, like they haven't really been willing

450
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:20,560
Speaker 1: to do this, and I did it.

451
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:22,159
Speaker 2: A little bit at the end of the next series,

452
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:22,960
Speaker 2: just a little bit.

453
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:25,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, I'm like all in favor of them not

454
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,720
Speaker 1: playing Tony Bradley and Thomas Bryant, Like, I think those

455
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:32,800
Speaker 1: are the minutes that really worry me if I'm Indiana,

456
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:36,600
Speaker 1: But yeah, this is better to me. This is a

457
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:39,000
Speaker 1: good idea. If I'm them, I'm definitely playing small more

458
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,480
Speaker 1: than I'm playing the ten to twelve minutes a game

459
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:45,119
Speaker 1: where Thomas Bryant and Tony Bradley are on the court,

460
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:46,239
Speaker 1: I would definitely do that.

461
00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:50,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, it ties to the defensive end because I didn't

462
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:54,080
Speaker 2: like the way that I thought that Indiana gave up

463
00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,879
Speaker 2: a lot of vertical spacing opportunities on the role, specifically

464
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:00,119
Speaker 2: to Hartenstein and that's what kind of I'm glad you

465
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 2: brought up the Chet piece because we talked about this

466
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:05,360
Speaker 2: in our series preview. Like, I look at Chet as

467
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:07,880
Speaker 2: the best of both worlds with Hartenstein in the sense

468
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,600
Speaker 2: that he brings the same kind of vertical spacing element

469
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,119
Speaker 2: as a guy that can roll behind the defense, but

470
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,440
Speaker 2: that legitimately can guard on the perimeter in this whirling

471
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 2: kind of offense. That said, even within that context, I

472
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 2: think he's the smartest target point for Indiana to try

473
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 2: to go after, just because he's a big body and

474
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:26,720
Speaker 2: if you can get him shifting one way or the other,

475
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:28,480
Speaker 2: that could help.

476
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:32,840
Speaker 1: The other thing with Chet is a lob threat to me, right,

477
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:35,359
Speaker 1: I always think Chet is a little bit better is

478
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,920
Speaker 1: a lob threat cutting baseline than he is in ball screens.

479
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:41,320
Speaker 1: I just think it allows him to load up a

480
00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 1: little bit easier on those like in those situations. But

481
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:46,920
Speaker 1: what that does is it means that like a lot

482
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 1: of the ball screens will be set like guard to guard, right,

483
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 1: And I would imagine that like figuring out an answer

484
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:54,200
Speaker 1: to the guard to guard screening actions and the small

485
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:56,720
Speaker 1: lineups or actually those are actually going to be the

486
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 1: critical thing to me trying to figure out, like, Okay,

487
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:01,440
Speaker 1: how do we how do we handle the guard to guards?

488
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,879
Speaker 1: Are we just switching if it means we're getting Halliburton

489
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:08,959
Speaker 1: on Shay, or if it means we're getting you know,

490
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:13,720
Speaker 1: Obi Toppin onto Shay, or are we you know, gonna

491
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 1: try and like hedge and recover a little bit with

492
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,359
Speaker 1: Halliburton and top In. Obviously you switch anything, nem Hardne Smith,

493
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,240
Speaker 1: I would think, but you know, what would your answer

494
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:24,440
Speaker 1: be to the way that you guard to guard ball

495
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 1: screens if you're going smaller would be my question?

496
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 2: I would switch. I thought that Halliburton's hedges straight up

497
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 2: didn't work because Oklahoma City's guards were just slipping to

498
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:41,919
Speaker 2: the rim, particularly Cason Wallace. And I feel like Halliburton

499
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:44,119
Speaker 2: is at his best when he's going against like ghost

500
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:46,840
Speaker 2: screen guards that go to the three point line, because

501
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:49,399
Speaker 2: he's really good at getting out of the hedge with

502
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,480
Speaker 2: his hands up and making that pass kind of float

503
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 2: over the top and being able to rotate relatively quick.

504
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,480
Speaker 2: But I think the traditional like kind of guard guard

505
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:00,879
Speaker 2: screen where the guard just slips to to the rim

506
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 2: torch Haliburton I actually thought he did okay in his

507
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 2: shase switches like okay, and like at least enough to

508
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 2: make him hit a couple counter moves to where the

509
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 2: help defense could get involved, and he actually did force

510
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:14,679
Speaker 2: a couple of misses. I know that's a lot to

511
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 2: ask for Halliburton, but I'm worried that if they just

512
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 2: let him hedge that it's going to end in a

513
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 2: bunch of slips. But you're right, I mean going small,

514
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 2: I think the entire game plan shifts more towards switching,

515
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 2: because essentially the entire purpose of going small on both

516
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:33,399
Speaker 2: ends of the floor, it revolves around being able to

517
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 2: attack chat in space more effectively and then being able

518
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 2: to switch ball screens so that they don't have the

519
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 2: issues they were having with the role man in the

520
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:45,359
Speaker 2: regular season. So I find that to be most likely

521
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:47,639
Speaker 2: a switching scheme if they were to go small.

522
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 1: Okay, And then final final question here about this piece

523
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 1: of it. If you go small, so do you just trust,

524
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:58,719
Speaker 1: if you're Oklahoma City, for Jalen Williams to be able

525
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,200
Speaker 1: to guard Siakam Because if you do that, then it's Toppin'.

526
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 1: Then it's chet on topin And I would imagine they'll

527
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:07,160
Speaker 1: just leave top and open from three at that point.

528
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you could also talk me specifically because

529
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 2: of the Oklahoma City matchup into them going into more guards.

530
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:18,680
Speaker 2: I actually put this, Actually, this is the perfect pivot

531
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 2: to the next one. I had a different one for

532
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,719
Speaker 2: my second piece, but we'll circle back to that, should

533
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,879
Speaker 2: they because a lot of my Indiana on offense takes

534
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 2: are geared around the idea that they're going to be

535
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 2: face guarding Tyres Haliburton and ball pressuring in full court

536
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,400
Speaker 2: and some of the stuff with him kind of getting disengaged.

537
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 2: Haliburton's usage rate in the regular season is low compared

538
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:40,359
Speaker 2: to other guards because of how quickly he gets rid

539
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:44,640
Speaker 2: of the ball, but even juxtapose with his normal usage rate,

540
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 2: his usage rate against Oklahoma City was hilariously low. It

541
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:49,119
Speaker 2: was like twelve percent.

542
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,919
Speaker 1: So the one game, like he took like six shots

543
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 1: or something like.

544
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, that it was the first one early in the season,

545
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:58,919
Speaker 2: and he was aggressive in the second game as a

546
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 2: three point shooter, but he wasn't really the same kind

547
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,159
Speaker 2: of like downhill force that he can usually be. So

548
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,120
Speaker 2: what I'm worried about because the other thing too, that

549
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,639
Speaker 2: kind of hammers that home is both Cleveland and New

550
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 2: York had success to dying Halburton, and that's specifically leading

551
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 2: to him kind of getting disengaged. So I'm kind of

552
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,359
Speaker 2: obsessed with this idea of how to make Haliburton useful

553
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 2: as an off ball player in this series. So first,

554
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:27,440
Speaker 2: the third piece that I wrote down here to kind

555
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:29,160
Speaker 2: of circle back to your point about who this fifth

556
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 2: guy should be, I think dribble penetration is going to

557
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 2: be really important because when things really bogged down for

558
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 2: Indiana against Oklahoma City, especially when they start to switch,

559
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 2: they're gonna need someone who can beat the man in

560
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 2: front of him. And all of a sudden, I start

561
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 2: looking at TJ McConnell as an option. So I'm wondering if,

562
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 2: obviously TJ makes no sense if you're going to be

563
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,959
Speaker 2: playing through Halliburton on ball. But let's say that Dort

564
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 2: has a bunch of success against Haliburton early in the

565
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 2: series with the niles and physicality, and Halliburton's just clearly

566
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 2: super uncomfortable. You know, We're halfway through game two and

567
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 2: he has like thirteen total points on like twelve shots,

568
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 2: and we're like, something's gone going on. We gotta find

569
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 2: a way to get Haliburton going, I would start to

570
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 2: look at like a guard lineup that has TJ alongside Hallie,

571
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 2: where he can one space the floor off the ball,

572
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 2: but two I would be obsessed with using Halliburton as

573
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 2: a screener in this series because if Dort's gonna hug

574
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,239
Speaker 2: up to him, then that's the best time to use

575
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 2: him as a screener because either O Dort will have

576
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 2: to help, which will get him separated from that pressure,

577
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 2: or you're gonna get all sorts of dribble penetration off

578
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 2: of Dort not helping on screens. But either way, I

579
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 2: like the idea of having a guard like TJ who's

580
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 2: big and plays bigger than he is, but that has

581
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 2: the ability to beat the man in front of him

582
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 2: off the dribble. Arguably that's his best NBA Trait is

583
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 2: like he can get past his man, and so I

584
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 2: think that suddenly becomes really valuable alongside a Halliburton lineup.

585
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 1: Or he's not being aggressive, Yeah, no, this I completely

586
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 1: agree with. I would expect that offensively, TJ will play

587
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,479
Speaker 1: a big role in this series just because they do

588
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 1: need somebody who can get consistent penetration against Oklahoma City

589
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 1: and I do think that TJ can just drive like

590
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 1: Cason will be on him at times a great defender.

591
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 1: Maybe you put Caruso on him at times. Maybe Cruso

592
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 1: guards up the lineup. He's just so flexible in terms

593
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 1: of what you can do with him that he's critical

594
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. But I think TJ can

595
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 1: get downhill like in a way that is just effective

596
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 1: almost against anybody. It's what happens when he gets to

597
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 1: the paint that is the question, right, Like can he

598
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 1: make the mid range jumper? Can he you know, get

599
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 1: all the way downhill and get all the way to

600
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 1: the rim. I think he might struggle there. But I

601
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 1: agree with you totally in terms of the idea of

602
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 1: using Haliburton as a screener, Like I would like I'd

603
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 1: be looking at like double drags into flares right for

604
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 1: Halliburton to be able to potentially try and get him loose.

605
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 1: I'd be looking at like, you know, trying to run

606
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 1: even like off ball action for Halliburton, where like you know,

607
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 1: he's the screener, like you set like a double pin

608
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 1: down like a rap pin or something where Halliburton is

609
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 1: the initial screener and then you know the guy in

610
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 1: the corner. Maybe it's like Obi toppin or something comes

611
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 1: around and sets like a rap pin for him to

612
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 1: come around and be able to like go up and

613
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 1: get the ball right. Like, those ideas are really interesting

614
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 1: to me in the series, Like, those are things that

615
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 1: I would almost certainly try to look at. I think

616
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 1: that that's gonna be huge because if you look at

617
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 1: where the Knicks started to have success with Haliburton later

618
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 1: in the series, it was the pickup point, right, like

619
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 1: they would pick him up fifty sixty feet from the

620
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 1: rim and say, hey, we're gonna make life a little

621
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 1: bit harder on you. We're gonna make sure that you

622
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 1: have to work for every single second that you're on

623
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 1: the court here, especially whenever you're not running in transition,

624
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 1: not off of a make any The key here for

625
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 1: the Thunder almost to me, is like can their offensive

626
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 1: efficiency be strong enough to where they can stop Indiana

627
00:31:57,800 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 1: from running at the end of the day, because they

628
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 1: will run off of missus, they will run off of turnovers.

629
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,720
Speaker 1: Like I think that against Oklahoma City, you probably struggle

630
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 1: to run off of makes quite as often, just because

631
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 1: of the fact that Oklahoma City doesn't really go for

632
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 1: the offensive class regularly, Like, it's just not something that

633
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 1: they do. I think they were like twenty first twenty

634
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 1: seconds something like that in the league and offensive rebounding

635
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:24,080
Speaker 1: rate this year, so they're almost always have four guys back.

636
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 1: It's gonna be a little bit harder to run in transition,

637
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 1: so you're gonna have to figure out ways to get

638
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 1: offensive efficiency in the half court. And to me, making

639
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 1: Haliburton a screener and then trying to get him loose

640
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 1: off the ball, that's a really that's something I would

641
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 1: absolutely do. Yeah.

642
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, the last piece I had it and it all

643
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 2: falls in the same lane is just Siakam Halliburton inverted

644
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 2: ball screens. I think the series eventually tilts towards Jadubb

645
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 2: guarding Siakam. I think Jadab has generally done a good

646
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 2: job against some of these big scoring forwards. He's just

647
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 2: built like a truck and he's got long arms, which

648
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 2: I think is the big thing. That you can swipe

649
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 2: at the basketball without getting out of position, which is key.

650
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 2: But same sort of concept like imagine dort Now. I

651
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 2: think Oklahoma City would inevitably just start switching this, But

652
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 2: I think I like Haliburton's ability to potentially beat Jadub

653
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 2: off the dribble more than I like him against Dort,

654
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 2: And similarly, I think I like Dor. I think I

655
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 2: like Siakam trying to score against Dort in the posts

656
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 2: more than I like him trying to score against Jay

657
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 2: Dub And so now inevitably I think Oklahoma City will

658
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 2: double post ups over the course of the series. But

659
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 2: I think that I would really really explore just Siakam

660
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 2: at the top of the key with Haliburton as a

661
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 2: screener and then Haliburton basically just slipping out to the

662
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 2: three point line if they're gonna if they're not gonna switch,

663
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 2: and if they do switch, then using both of those

664
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 2: guys just having more favorable matchups. But to your point,

665
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 2: and this is the more important piece of it all,

666
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 2: I think Indiana is gonna be running less for buckets

667
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 2: in this series because of Oklahoma City's transition defense, but

668
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 2: running more for those transition cross matches, because I think

669
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 2: those are gonna be the key to getting them earlier,

670
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 2: easier opportunities in the half court.

671
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 1: See. But and I know we're trying to look at

672
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 1: this from like, how does Indiana win? That's what makes

673
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 1: India That's what makes the thunder really really hard to

674
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 1: deal with is because like, their cross matches are not

675
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:19,720
Speaker 1: always advantageous, right, uh, certainly not nearly marginally as advantageous

676
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 1: as other teams cross matches are. Right, So, okay, we're

677
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 1: cross matching in transition, right, we're getting uh oh wait,

678
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 1: it's Caruso and Halliburton. Now it's uh it's Cason Wallace

679
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:38,279
Speaker 1: on Aaron Nesmith now right, Like It's it's hard, right,

680
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:40,320
Speaker 1: especially when you have a number of different bodies that

681
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 1: I feel okay with guarding Siakam right, Like, like, I

682
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,800
Speaker 1: feel fine if Caruso is on Siakam, I feel fine.

683
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 1: If Jalen is on Siakam, I feel certainly fine. If

684
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:54,440
Speaker 1: Cheta is on Siakam. Right, Shay is like, to me,

685
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,000
Speaker 1: the guy that you probably want to try and bring

686
00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:00,160
Speaker 1: into the action defensively. And this isn't because sha as

687
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:03,760
Speaker 1: a bad defender. I certainly don't think he is. It's more,

688
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 1: can you wear him down and kind of tire him

689
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:08,880
Speaker 1: out a little bit over the course of a series.

690
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 1: The problem is in the finals there are two days

691
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:13,839
Speaker 1: between every game except for one, so it's a little

692
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:15,960
Speaker 1: bit trickier to even like try and go with the

693
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 1: let's wear somebody down angle, because you know, it's just harder,

694
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:21,799
Speaker 1: but like maybe you can wear him down over the

695
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 1: course of a game a little bit, like a small amount.

696
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 1: Like who I would imagine that the way that they'll

697
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:29,839
Speaker 1: set this up is that Shay is gonna be guarding

698
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:33,440
Speaker 1: Nie Smith. We think, yeah, right, So like to me,

699
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:36,800
Speaker 1: I'm gonna set a bunch of Nie Smith screens early

700
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 1: in the game. I want to make Shae try and

701
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 1: guard early in games, is what I'm doing. If I'm Indiana.

702
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:47,239
Speaker 1: Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't, but at the very least,

703
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:51,239
Speaker 1: I'm making him work defensively and trying to make him

704
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 1: engaged in the game defensively a little bit more often

705
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 1: than what you know he might have to be. Otherwise,

706
00:35:57,520 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 1: if he's able to play on Nie Smith and just

707
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:02,760
Speaker 1: sitting corner and then he's so long and covers ground

708
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 1: so well that he's just going to be able to,

709
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 1: you know, sit off of him and kind of relax

710
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:11,400
Speaker 1: a little bit, and then it's just very dangerous for

711
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 1: Indiana on the other end, because then he's well rested,

712
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 1: he's playing that free safety role in the back line.

713
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 1: He'll probably get some steals doing that because he's so long.

714
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:24,360
Speaker 1: That's I think my goal early on would be to

715
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 1: try and involve Shae in screens. Even though Shae is

716
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 1: not a bad like on ball defender necessarily, I think.

717
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 2: Shaye is a vehicle for them in a bunch of

718
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 2: different ways. Like I think in situations where they can't

719
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:36,719
Speaker 2: push the ball at the floor in transition and they

720
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:39,279
Speaker 2: have to face up ball pressure, I think that Shay

721
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:43,359
Speaker 2: is an easy vehicle with which to like basically alleviate

722
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,239
Speaker 2: some of that. So essentially just let Nee Smith bring

723
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 2: the ball to the floor, you know, when whenever Haliburton

724
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:51,440
Speaker 2: needs a break or when he's fatigued. Things along those lines.

725
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 2: I think you mentioned using him as a screener. I

726
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 2: even think I would hunt him off the ball with

727
00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 2: spot ups for aaron Ne Smith, because I think Aaron

728
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 2: Smith is a very good spot up, close out attacker.

729
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 2: And I think if I think, if if Dagnall has

730
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:06,439
Speaker 2: Shay doing what he did in the other series, where

731
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:08,920
Speaker 2: he's like quite literally in the paint the entire series,

732
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 2: just as like a roamer, I think that's where you

733
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 2: could end up burning him off ball with like those kickouts,

734
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:17,120
Speaker 2: like ultimately before we shift over to the defensive end

735
00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:21,879
Speaker 2: of the floor. I think this series inevitably tilts as

736
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 2: long as Indiana doesn't like quite literally soil themselves against

737
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:27,399
Speaker 2: all the ball pressure, which I just don't think they will.

738
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 2: But if if they just as long as they don't

739
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 2: like straight up soil themselves, they'll eventually take advantage of

740
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,719
Speaker 2: the openings in Oklahoma City's base scheme by moving the

741
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 2: ball through it and getting those kickouts and knocking them

742
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 2: down and just playing Indiana Pacers basketball.

743
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:45,360
Speaker 1: But the difference is the penetration is the key.

744
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,799
Speaker 2: If they can get penetration. But even like within that context,

745
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:50,399
Speaker 2: I like, for instance, like let's say, let's say that

746
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 2: they're running ball screens on the right side of the

747
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 2: floor with you know, or three man action on the

748
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:56,920
Speaker 2: right side of the floor with Haliburton and Turner and

749
00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:00,399
Speaker 2: and you know, Nie Smith or something like that, they're

750
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 2: gonna tag rollers and they're gonna pinch in and the

751
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 2: skip pass is gonna be open, and Tyres is one

752
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 2: of the very best players in the league at making

753
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:10,279
Speaker 2: the skip pass. So inevitably, I think the difference in

754
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:13,799
Speaker 2: between the two teams is that, uh, I don't know

755
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 2: that Indiana has the same kind of defensive solutions that

756
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:19,399
Speaker 2: Oklahoma City has. Like Oklahoma City can be like, we're

757
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 2: struggling to guard these actions, all right, guys, we're switching

758
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 2: everything guard, stay home, off ball. Let's force these guys

759
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:25,279
Speaker 2: to play a bunch of one on one and let's

760
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:27,680
Speaker 2: see what happens. And like to your point, there's just

761
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 2: not a favorable matchup out there. Like we were talking

762
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:33,000
Speaker 2: about the Siakam Halliburton ball screen, I think there's a

763
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:35,279
Speaker 2: good chance we see Caruso on Siakam a lot in

764
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 2: this series and have him just switch onto guards in

765
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:40,480
Speaker 2: action and stuff like that. And so ultimately it comes

766
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:42,839
Speaker 2: down to the fact that Oklahoma City just has more solutions.

767
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:46,400
Speaker 2: But moving to the defensive end of the floor, the

768
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 2: first thing I wrote down is just the ultimate load up,

769
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 2: meaning bring Miles Tchurner up to the level every single time,

770
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 2: help hard as the low man live in rotation. The

771
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 2: thought probably as there is in this postseason, Oklahoma City

772
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 2: is still converting spot up possessions at just zero point

773
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 2: nine to six points per possession, which ranks tenth amongst

774
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 2: sixteen playoff teams. Now, I would argue that in every

775
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 2: big moment they've come through and hit those shots and

776
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:16,399
Speaker 2: driven those close outs and made plays. But I still

777
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 2: think it's probably the best chance to slow this team

778
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 2: down in the half court and then forcing bigs to

779
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 2: score in the pocket, like bringing low man help more

780
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:25,319
Speaker 2: towards the rim and less like aggressively up in the

781
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 2: middle and making those bigs like catch there. And they're

782
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:31,840
Speaker 2: still shooting just forty nine percent as role men in

783
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 2: this postseason, and they're turning the ball over about ten

784
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:37,800
Speaker 2: percent of the time there. So essentially by just living

785
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 2: in a super aggressive, loaded up traditional coverage where you're

786
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 2: at the level coming over as the low man, digging

787
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:46,920
Speaker 2: into the paint, forcing them to basically score in the

788
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 2: pocket and score on spot ups, I think is still

789
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:51,840
Speaker 2: the best base scheme that they could use in this matchup.

790
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:57,120
Speaker 1: Okay, so here here'd be my first question, where is

791
00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:01,000
Speaker 1: the pickup point for you? Then I remember you picking

792
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 1: Shae up.

793
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 2: I would start the series picking him up full court

794
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:08,840
Speaker 2: just because that's your identity and just see how it goes.

795
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:11,760
Speaker 2: But I would be willing to bail on that quickly

796
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 2: because Shaye is really good at turning ball pressure into

797
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:18,360
Speaker 2: dribble penetration. And Oklahoma City is really good at setting

798
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:21,600
Speaker 2: extended ball screens where they can get you into some trouble,

799
00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:24,279
Speaker 2: like even as far out as half court, to just

800
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,720
Speaker 2: get you into a compromising position. So I would start there,

801
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:31,920
Speaker 2: but I would potentially if Shae beats the ball pressure easily,

802
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:34,480
Speaker 2: I would completely alter the pickup point to more of

803
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:38,399
Speaker 2: a contain approach where you're conceding pull up threes and

804
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 2: you're ducking underpicks and you're like doing that sort of stuff.

805
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:45,960
Speaker 2: The I just I would. I'm a big believer in, like,

806
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:48,759
Speaker 2: don't pivot off of your identity until they knock you

807
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 2: off of it. So like this is a ball pressure

808
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 2: team that has lived with ball pressure all postseason. I

809
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 2: would start with that, but I would I would pivot

810
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 2: quickly if Shaye does what he did to Jada McDaniels

811
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 2: and just gets past some before you even get into

812
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:01,719
Speaker 2: the half court.

813
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 1: So I'm kind of working under the assumption that that's

814
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:08,440
Speaker 1: gonna happen because that's just what Shade does, right, Like,

815
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 1: if you pick up high, he's gonna cause problems. And

816
00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:13,240
Speaker 1: if you pick up high and he doesn't cause problems,

817
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 1: then you're gonna give the ball to Jalen, and they're

818
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 1: gonna set screens for Jalen, and then Jalen's gonna get

819
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 1: downhill and he's gonna cause problems in terms of you

820
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:24,640
Speaker 1: picking up too high, so they have too many options

821
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:26,799
Speaker 1: to be able to handle the ball if you use

822
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 1: the pickup point that high. I agree with you, and

823
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 1: don't go away from your identity early in a series.

824
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 1: I think you shouldn't do that. But I do think

825
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:39,280
Speaker 1: that the best way to guard this Oklahoma City team,

826
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:42,200
Speaker 1: and just generally, because what you're trying to do here,

827
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:44,320
Speaker 1: if you're Indiana, in my opinion, is you're trying to

828
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:48,240
Speaker 1: create variants on some level, right ye you are the underdog.

829
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:51,719
Speaker 1: You're trying to create variants. I'm trying to make them

830
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:54,439
Speaker 1: a three point shooting team, and I'm trying to make

831
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:57,800
Speaker 1: them a catch and shoot three point shooting team. Particularly

832
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 1: or not, I'm sorry, I'll pull up shoot three point

833
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:02,439
Speaker 1: shooting team, not a catch and shoot three point shooting team.

834
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:05,040
Speaker 1: I want to avoid the catch and shoot three point

835
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:08,439
Speaker 1: shot as much as humanly possible. To me. The way

836
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:13,320
Speaker 1: to do that is you go under. Chase, you under,

837
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:18,759
Speaker 1: and like drop, even not drop, but like you play

838
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 1: not a fool drop, but like slightly at the level, right,

839
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:26,239
Speaker 1: like slightly below the level. Maybe just make it so

840
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:30,080
Speaker 1: Shay can't walk into like eighteen footers, right, and then

841
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 1: you led Jayden get back in recovery and then you

842
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 1: make and then they're probably gonna adjust to like more

843
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 1: guard to guard action, right, And that's fine to me

844
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:40,960
Speaker 1: as well. Maybe you just switch that depending on what

845
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:43,319
Speaker 1: your matchup is it it's Halliburton, I don't love that

846
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:48,239
Speaker 1: switch you maybe decide to. Yeah, like I just go

847
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:51,280
Speaker 1: I think I go under with Haliburton at that point

848
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 1: and don't even like you don't hard heads. You just

849
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:55,799
Speaker 1: go under and drop and you make Shae beat you

850
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:58,600
Speaker 1: with pull up threes as opposed to pull up two's.

851
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the other thing they could explore there too,

852
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:06,239
Speaker 2: is like using kind of a modified hedge where the

853
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:08,840
Speaker 2: on ball guy kind of drops back to chuck the

854
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:11,919
Speaker 2: cutter as Haliburton's throwing the hedge. Because ye my, it's

855
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 2: like with the at the level coverage. The at the

856
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:16,040
Speaker 2: level coverage to me is not about taking away the

857
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 2: pull up. It's about preventing him from getting ahead of

858
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:22,040
Speaker 2: steam like that. To me, that like, I I'm with

859
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:24,640
Speaker 2: you like I want I want Shay taking as many

860
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:28,080
Speaker 2: pull up jump shots as possible in this series. But

861
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:30,840
Speaker 2: I think if you run too aggressive of a drop

862
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:32,960
Speaker 2: and you let him get a runway, Yeah, it's one

863
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:34,759
Speaker 2: thing to be like it's fine, just go under the pick,

864
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:36,439
Speaker 2: but it's like all it takes is him just doing

865
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:38,840
Speaker 2: a nifty ball handling move where he gets you jumping

866
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:40,839
Speaker 2: under the pick and then he just reverses or something

867
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:42,920
Speaker 2: like that, and you could be in some serious trouble.

868
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:45,880
Speaker 2: So like that, that's the one thing where like I like,

869
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:48,640
Speaker 2: I feel like at the level is primarily serving the

870
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 2: purpose of stopping the ball handler from getting ahead of

871
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:55,359
Speaker 2: steam the hedges. I don't have a good answer for you.

872
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 2: The switch is bad with Haliburton. This like modified kind

873
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:02,160
Speaker 2: of like Chuck the cutter thing I'm talking about. It's

874
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:05,880
Speaker 2: all theoretical, like it's you're just that's just the reality

875
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:08,720
Speaker 2: of Tyres Haliburton being Tyres Haliburton and trying to guard

876
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:10,960
Speaker 2: in that sort of action. But I still think I

877
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 2: would try switching over anything else. But I generally agree

878
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 2: with you that, like the game plan of this particular

879
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:20,399
Speaker 2: matchup is to gear them towards the highest variance shot

880
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:22,040
Speaker 2: that they can take, which is literally a pull up

881
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:25,439
Speaker 2: jump shot for Shay or j Dubb. We talked about

882
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:28,239
Speaker 2: going small, that's the true one through five switchability, but

883
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:30,879
Speaker 2: that opens the door for offense rebounding in the same

884
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:35,040
Speaker 2: sort of problem that we talked about with Halliburton zone.

885
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:38,280
Speaker 2: The thing with zone, I was gonna.

886
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 1: Bring it up.

887
00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:41,719
Speaker 2: The Thunder struggled a bit with zone early in the

888
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:45,359
Speaker 2: Denver series, but they're averaging well over a point per

889
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:48,080
Speaker 2: possession against zone over their last six playoff games, Like

890
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 2: they've been figuring that out, and it's just they just

891
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 2: have guys that are a lot of guys who are

892
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:54,440
Speaker 2: comfortable working in the middle of the floor. And once again,

893
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 2: this team, the overall like ball movement and spacing principles

894
00:44:57,719 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 2: and just the awareness on offense is like so much

895
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:02,680
Speaker 2: high than it was last year. In my opinion, they

896
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 2: could try some inventive zones like a three to two

897
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 2: or a one to three one, but I think chet

898
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:12,759
Speaker 2: and Hartenstein and Caruso and Cason Wallace, I think all

899
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 2: of those guys have been great with like teeing up

900
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:18,960
Speaker 2: and working along the baseline and like finding opportunities against

901
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:22,719
Speaker 2: any sort of like front loaded defense. So like I

902
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 2: I think ultimately things come back down to what you

903
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:29,800
Speaker 2: just mentioned, which is like that contain the ball, forced

904
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:32,560
Speaker 2: them to play in drop some variation of drop, either

905
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:34,760
Speaker 2: a high dropper or a low dropper, a mid somewhere

906
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 2: in the middle, and ducking under whenever possible, and basically

907
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:41,839
Speaker 2: just putting the ball handler into this like decision zone

908
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:45,560
Speaker 2: where it's like will I take this mediocre shot or

909
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:48,080
Speaker 2: will I attempt to continue to work things around.

910
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:57,040
Speaker 1: And it's not an either or thing, right Like, if

911
00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 1: I'm Rick Carlisle, I'm going into this series doing something

912
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:02,919
Speaker 1: very similar to what Denver did in terms of I'm

913
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:05,160
Speaker 1: not just sitting in a two three zone or I'm

914
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:08,160
Speaker 1: not just sitting in man demand. I'm giving him five

915
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 1: different looks, you know what I mean? Like Denver in games,

916
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:15,480
Speaker 1: what was it like three four and five maybe if

917
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 1: I remember correctly, they came out like a goofy one

918
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:21,879
Speaker 1: three to one, where like Jokic was on the left wing,

919
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:24,919
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like, and then they would

920
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:27,239
Speaker 1: sync back into like their normal two three zone, and

921
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:29,320
Speaker 1: then there'd be possessions where they played and drop, and

922
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:32,600
Speaker 1: then there'd be possessions where they hedged like they gave

923
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 1: them different looks. And to me, you know, the days

924
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:39,200
Speaker 1: off going into the finals, the days off between games

925
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:42,840
Speaker 1: in the finals, that gives you ample opportunity to be

926
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:45,759
Speaker 1: able to throw some of these things in, you know

927
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:48,840
Speaker 1: what I mean, you can throw in the idea of Okay,

928
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:51,960
Speaker 1: we're going to give them five different looks in the

929
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:55,680
Speaker 1: first quarter like Denver did. We're gonna say, hey, we

930
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:58,600
Speaker 1: need to be really solid with our two to three defense,

931
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:01,520
Speaker 1: where like Denver's two three was really interesting, Like they

932
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 1: would lift Jokic pretty high toward like the foul line

933
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:08,920
Speaker 1: area in order to take away that ability for you know,

934
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:12,120
Speaker 1: Caruso to shoot into the foul line area or Check

935
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:14,799
Speaker 1: to shoot into the foul line area, or for Shay

936
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:18,040
Speaker 1: to feel comfortable once he got into that area because

937
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 1: he'd always have someone to contest. And then they'd have

938
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:22,840
Speaker 1: the base, the back line guys in the corners, you know,

939
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:25,759
Speaker 1: rotate in and rotate out right. Like it was like

940
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:29,600
Speaker 1: a weird like almost like a two to one two

941
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 1: like two three zone. Half the time, Like if if

942
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:37,800
Speaker 1: I'm them, I'm Indiana, I'm looking at it, like, Okay,

943
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:42,319
Speaker 1: let's throw some of those looks in. Let's throw some

944
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:44,480
Speaker 1: of those, like, let's throw a one to three one

945
00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:47,759
Speaker 1: look in, Let's throw a man de man look in.

946
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:50,600
Speaker 1: And this is all very hard. This is all very

947
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:53,919
Speaker 1: difficult on the fly when you haven't done it all season. Right,

948
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:57,960
Speaker 1: this is the whole point of having all these days

949
00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 1: off and having a team that I frankly think is

950
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:06,080
Speaker 1: like filled with really freaking smart basketball players. Right, they

951
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:09,000
Speaker 1: can probably figure that, like this team of guys, Like

952
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:11,399
Speaker 1: I didn't really trust Minnesota's guys to figure it out,

953
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:16,239
Speaker 1: because both Aunt and Julius Randall are just not attentive

954
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:19,040
Speaker 1: enough off the ball defensively to be able to like

955
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:21,799
Speaker 1: effectively be able to play his own. But most of

956
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:24,800
Speaker 1: Indiana's guys are like pretty solid, Like even Tyreese is

957
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 1: like a pretty solid off ball defender. He knows where

958
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:29,600
Speaker 1: he's supposed to rotate, he knows where he's supposed to go.

959
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:33,320
Speaker 1: If I'm them, I'm just throwing all sort of different

960
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:35,839
Speaker 1: looks at them. More than anything. I'm throwing different ball

961
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:39,920
Speaker 1: screen coverages. I'm throwing different occasional zone looks, And if

962
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:43,160
Speaker 1: I have some success, I see what's like you're throwing

963
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:46,960
Speaker 1: spaghetti at a wall. Whenever you have like a fork

964
00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:48,919
Speaker 1: in the middle of the wall and you're seeing which

965
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:52,800
Speaker 1: strand falls onto the fork and stays hanging as opposed

966
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 1: to falling to the ground. Right.

967
00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:57,920
Speaker 2: I love this point that you're making because, like you

968
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:01,400
Speaker 2: talked about trying to breed veryperience as much as possible,

969
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:04,560
Speaker 2: and how I mean, even before we started talking about

970
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 2: the series, just about the value of coaching, and when

971
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 2: you have these extra days, you just have so much

972
00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:10,640
Speaker 2: more time to implement these sort of things. I almost

973
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:12,320
Speaker 2: think of it like, you know, like in the NFL

974
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:15,440
Speaker 2: when they talk about like your first drive being scripted,

975
00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:17,840
Speaker 2: and then you know, after you get off script, like

976
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:21,160
Speaker 2: how well can you, you know, play call in the moment.

977
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:26,320
Speaker 2: I almost feel like if you're gonna mix up coverages,

978
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:29,120
Speaker 2: you almost go into it with like an incredibly scripted

979
00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:32,279
Speaker 2: approach where it's like, here's how we're coming out, here's

980
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:34,239
Speaker 2: what we're gonna do. After the first time out, as

981
00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 2: soon as they go to you know, this lineup, this

982
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:38,440
Speaker 2: is what we're gonna do. As soon as they go

983
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:40,560
Speaker 2: to that lineup, this is what we're gonna do. Then

984
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:42,239
Speaker 2: we're suddenly gonna come out in the second half and

985
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:44,640
Speaker 2: do this, and then when we're in an early fourth

986
00:49:44,719 --> 00:49:47,640
Speaker 2: quarter stretch, when you know, this is how we anticipate

987
00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:49,560
Speaker 2: the game to be going, this is what we're gonna do,

988
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:52,760
Speaker 2: just have like an incredibly scripted approach to the mixing

989
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:56,000
Speaker 2: up of coverages and essentially just calling your guys to

990
00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:59,080
Speaker 2: spend their off days mentally engaged, kind of figuring out

991
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:01,160
Speaker 2: how they're gonna do that kind of stuff, because to

992
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:04,440
Speaker 2: your point, they're gonna need every inch. They're gonna need

993
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:07,480
Speaker 2: every inch to win this series. And so before we

994
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:11,040
Speaker 2: wrap up today, I said on my show that I

995
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 2: would be absolutely stunned if Indiana won. I picked Oklahoma

996
00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 2: City in five. I'm having a really hard time even

997
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:21,839
Speaker 2: conceptualizing a universe where they win this series. Why don't

998
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:25,000
Speaker 2: you just tell us, like your thirty thousand feet like

999
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:27,200
Speaker 2: outlook on the series in terms of who you think

1000
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 2: is gonna win, how you expect the series to go,

1001
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:32,839
Speaker 2: just like what your read is on the series from

1002
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 2: your perspective.

1003
00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:38,360
Speaker 1: I also picked Oklahoma City in five in on my show.

1004
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:43,240
Speaker 1: I think that they're gonna throw just so many different

1005
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:45,839
Speaker 1: bodies at Halliburton. The thunder are gonna throw so many

1006
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 1: different bodies at Halliburton, and then they also have bodies

1007
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:53,720
Speaker 1: like you can have two different primary defenders each game

1008
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:58,400
Speaker 1: to throw at Halliburton and Nemhard to be able to

1009
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:00,680
Speaker 1: just slow them down and annoy them. And then you're

1010
00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:04,720
Speaker 1: making at that point, Nie Smith Siakam be the guys

1011
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:06,239
Speaker 1: that either bring them all off the court or have

1012
00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:09,680
Speaker 1: to initiate offense or whatever you want to do in

1013
00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:13,480
Speaker 1: order to have a real degree of effectiveness if those

1014
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:19,839
Speaker 1: guys get wiped out, so that worries me offensively. I mean,

1015
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:22,279
Speaker 1: look like the numbers say that Oklahoma City has been

1016
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:26,520
Speaker 1: better with the five out alignment of Chet at the

1017
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:29,960
Speaker 1: five and then four small guys jadab typically at the four. Right,

1018
00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:35,560
Speaker 1: I am interested to see what the two big lineup

1019
00:51:35,600 --> 00:51:40,000
Speaker 1: looks like against the Pacers, if only because I think

1020
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:44,320
Speaker 1: that because they do generally kind of abandon the offensive

1021
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:49,319
Speaker 1: glass outside of Hartenstein, that they might have a little

1022
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:52,479
Speaker 1: bit more success than teams like Cleveland in New York

1023
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:57,880
Speaker 1: did against Indiana in terms of just being able to

1024
00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:01,240
Speaker 1: get all the way back in transit and avoid cross

1025
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:05,680
Speaker 1: matches in significant ways. The big things that really worry

1026
00:52:05,719 --> 00:52:08,920
Speaker 1: me though, for the Pacers here are we're talking about

1027
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:12,360
Speaker 1: this all in a manner in which we know that

1028
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:16,799
Speaker 1: like they're entirely healthy, and like Miles Turner to me,

1029
00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:19,960
Speaker 1: has not moved quite as well as he was early

1030
00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:22,840
Speaker 1: in the playoffs since he went down the tunnel in

1031
00:52:23,040 --> 00:52:27,200
Speaker 1: game two, if I remember correctly of the Knick series,

1032
00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:31,319
Speaker 1: like I mean, Carl Towns like absolutely obliterated him in

1033
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:36,160
Speaker 1: that series in any like bench unit situation. I was like,

1034
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:38,560
Speaker 1: I did not love the way he was moving. And

1035
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:42,200
Speaker 1: then Aaron Nesmith as well obviously Sprain's's ankle or whatever

1036
00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:45,480
Speaker 1: in game what was that four? Right?

1037
00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:46,360
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1038
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:47,040
Speaker 1: Game five?

1039
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:49,279
Speaker 2: Maybe yea. And he hasn't been as impactful since he

1040
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 2: came back yet.

1041
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:52,320
Speaker 1: He hasn't been as impactful and just hasn't like played

1042
00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:54,719
Speaker 1: more than twenty minutes in a game yet. So like,

1043
00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:57,600
Speaker 1: if he can't play a ton of a ton of minutes,

1044
00:52:58,040 --> 00:52:59,800
Speaker 1: jars Walker is gonna miss the first two games of

1045
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:01,759
Speaker 1: this series as well. And like you know, I'm not

1046
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:03,600
Speaker 1: sitting here saying that I think Jarris Walker is like

1047
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:06,200
Speaker 1: an impact player by any stretch of the imagination in

1048
00:53:06,239 --> 00:53:09,080
Speaker 1: an NBA Finals, I mean, maybe down the road, but

1049
00:53:09,719 --> 00:53:14,799
Speaker 1: I don't really know what to expect from him even

1050
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:17,200
Speaker 1: when he gets back and losing him gives you like

1051
00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:22,080
Speaker 1: another chess piece that you can throw down at the table.

1052
00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:26,240
Speaker 1: Here having Tony Bradley and Thomas Bryant like you probably

1053
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:31,319
Speaker 1: play them like minutes of this series unless Obi top

1054
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:33,359
Speaker 1: Im proves that he's able to like play the five

1055
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:36,120
Speaker 1: consistently and frankly, Rick Carlisle proves that he's willing to

1056
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:42,240
Speaker 1: play small consistently, which like he hasn't done yet. Yeah, look,

1057
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:45,120
Speaker 1: I think they steal one for sure because I just

1058
00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:48,040
Speaker 1: have an immense amount of faith in this Indiana team.

1059
00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:51,520
Speaker 1: But the biggest thing for me here is look like

1060
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:54,400
Speaker 1: I had Oklahoma City. I don't even think I picked

1061
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:56,920
Speaker 1: a winner of these two in the preseason. I had

1062
00:53:56,960 --> 00:53:59,400
Speaker 1: Oklahoma City in Boston as the two teams that I

1063
00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:01,799
Speaker 1: thought would be in finals in the preseason. I picked

1064
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:05,400
Speaker 1: Oklahoma City. At the start of the playoffs, Like, I

1065
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:08,319
Speaker 1: think we're just way underrating how good this team is

1066
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:11,239
Speaker 1: and how well they've been built. This is a genuinely

1067
00:54:11,400 --> 00:54:15,279
Speaker 1: historic defense that they've built. That they are one of

1068
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:17,680
Speaker 1: the best defensive teams I've ever watched play in my

1069
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:19,759
Speaker 1: entire life, and they have an MVP candidate to be

1070
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:22,040
Speaker 1: able to get them enough on offense, and they have

1071
00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:23,600
Speaker 1: the five out structure to be able to play well

1072
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:25,280
Speaker 1: enough on offense to be able to make it work.

1073
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:28,760
Speaker 1: Like they have Shay Gills Alexander who could probably retire

1074
00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:31,360
Speaker 1: now and be a Hall of Famer. They have Chet

1075
00:54:31,360 --> 00:54:35,160
Speaker 1: and Jalen Williams, who, like frankly like if they go

1076
00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:38,360
Speaker 1: down and become Hall of Famers, I don't think anybody

1077
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:41,600
Speaker 1: should be surprised based on what they've shown so far.

1078
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:43,479
Speaker 1: I'm not going to sit here and say these guys

1079
00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:47,799
Speaker 1: are Hall of Famers right now, but like that trajectory

1080
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:51,120
Speaker 1: is very open to them still in a real way.

1081
00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:53,399
Speaker 1: And they just have like a tremendous number of role

1082
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:57,160
Speaker 1: players that are really hard to deal with. So they

1083
00:54:57,160 --> 00:55:01,080
Speaker 1: won sixty eight games and have a like elite elite defense.

1084
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:05,080
Speaker 1: This might just be like a truly great team, right,

1085
00:55:05,160 --> 00:55:08,200
Speaker 1: It's okay, Like it's okay for the Pacers to lose

1086
00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:10,680
Speaker 1: like a truly truly great team, And I think that

1087
00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:13,239
Speaker 1: that's kind of where this is setting up at this point.

1088
00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:15,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting because, like I think some of the

1089
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:18,480
Speaker 2: criticism of Oklahoma City going into the postseason was fair

1090
00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:20,840
Speaker 2: in the sense that, like their offense was rickety. And

1091
00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:23,120
Speaker 2: guess what, every time they lost in this postseason, it

1092
00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:26,000
Speaker 2: was rickety. Like all four of their losses, their half

1093
00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:29,880
Speaker 2: court offensive rating was below ninety, and they and it

1094
00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:34,400
Speaker 2: was close. Like they were down nine in Game five

1095
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:36,680
Speaker 2: of the Nuggets series in the fourth quarter, they were

1096
00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:39,840
Speaker 2: down eight in Game four of the Nugget series in

1097
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:42,200
Speaker 2: the fourth quarter. They could have been a second round exit,

1098
00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:46,160
Speaker 2: but to their credit, they conquered their demons in those

1099
00:55:46,239 --> 00:55:49,200
Speaker 2: moments and got the job done. And so like it.

1100
00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:52,640
Speaker 2: I thought Oklahoma City had all the markers of one

1101
00:55:52,640 --> 00:55:55,640
Speaker 2: of those great teams, but I thought the skepticism surrounding

1102
00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:57,919
Speaker 2: them was also fair. I had them second going into

1103
00:55:57,960 --> 00:56:00,880
Speaker 2: the postseason, behind Boston just because I looked at Boston

1104
00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:03,399
Speaker 2: is essentially a team that could reach not that same

1105
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:06,240
Speaker 2: level defensively, but a very high level defensively, but also

1106
00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:09,680
Speaker 2: just a more experienced, veteran reliable offense. And that ended

1107
00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:13,240
Speaker 2: up being completely wrong, as Boston quite literally fell apart

1108
00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:16,600
Speaker 2: in that Nick series. But I agree with you, like

1109
00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:19,919
Speaker 2: I think I think Indiana gets Game three. I think

1110
00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:22,279
Speaker 2: it's completely reasonable to think that Indiana can get a

1111
00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:25,359
Speaker 2: game based on that rickety offense, Like they're they just

1112
00:56:25,480 --> 00:56:28,279
Speaker 2: have the ability still to go very cold, and their

1113
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:31,799
Speaker 2: guard initiators are still somewhat prone to stretches of poor

1114
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:34,640
Speaker 2: decision making that you can you can see them losing

1115
00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:37,200
Speaker 2: a game their defense. Though I'm one hundred percent with you.

1116
00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:41,120
Speaker 2: I think it's one of the greats. I listed this

1117
00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:46,120
Speaker 2: earlier today on our other pod, because our actual full

1118
00:56:46,120 --> 00:56:48,680
Speaker 2: series preview pod, because I was just so fascinated by

1119
00:56:49,239 --> 00:56:52,759
Speaker 2: the line of just body bags that Oklahoma City has

1120
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:55,520
Speaker 2: left behind in this postseason, Desmond Bayne had a three

1121
00:56:55,560 --> 00:56:58,000
Speaker 2: for twelve with four turnovers, A three for fourteen with

1122
00:56:58,040 --> 00:57:01,480
Speaker 2: five turnovers, Jaron Jackson at two for thirteen with four points,

1123
00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:05,520
Speaker 2: Jared Jackson at three for twelve, Jokics for three straight games,

1124
00:57:05,560 --> 00:57:08,000
Speaker 2: went thirty three percent from the field eighteen percent from

1125
00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:12,239
Speaker 2: three with more turnovers than assists. Julius Randall a two

1126
00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:14,560
Speaker 2: for eleven with six points and one for seven with

1127
00:57:14,600 --> 00:57:17,800
Speaker 2: five points. Like they have like straight up embarrassed some

1128
00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:19,920
Speaker 2: of the better players in our league, and I think

1129
00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:21,800
Speaker 2: they have the potential to do that again. Like we

1130
00:57:21,840 --> 00:57:23,360
Speaker 2: didn't even talk about it, but like I think there's

1131
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:26,280
Speaker 2: a chance to Tyres Haliburton. We leave this series thinking

1132
00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:29,240
Speaker 2: of him very differently because of the damage that this

1133
00:57:29,320 --> 00:57:32,080
Speaker 2: team can do. Like, in my opinion, all time great

1134
00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:34,040
Speaker 2: is something that you start throwing around when you win

1135
00:57:34,120 --> 00:57:38,800
Speaker 2: multiple championships. But speaking strictly within the scope of one season,

1136
00:57:39,560 --> 00:57:43,400
Speaker 2: I'd argue this since since like Kobe's last title in

1137
00:57:43,440 --> 00:57:46,000
Speaker 2: twenty ten, Like, if you went from like twenty eleven

1138
00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:48,960
Speaker 2: moving forward, it's the twenty seventeen Warriors, and then I

1139
00:57:49,000 --> 00:57:50,919
Speaker 2: think it would be this team. I think they would

1140
00:57:50,960 --> 00:57:53,520
Speaker 2: be the next team on that list. Like I think

1141
00:57:53,520 --> 00:57:57,800
Speaker 2: they've been more dominant and more successful against tougher competition

1142
00:57:57,920 --> 00:58:02,320
Speaker 2: than like the twenty thirteen eat. You know, like if

1143
00:58:02,320 --> 00:58:05,560
Speaker 2: you really dig into it, like i'd argue, I'd probably

1144
00:58:05,560 --> 00:58:07,680
Speaker 2: like if you're if you're asking me who i'd taken

1145
00:58:07,720 --> 00:58:10,080
Speaker 2: a series, I'd probably take the twenty thirteen heat because

1146
00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:12,280
Speaker 2: it's like Lebron and Dayne Wade. But like if you're

1147
00:58:12,320 --> 00:58:15,520
Speaker 2: just strictly speaking of like what's happening within the season,

1148
00:58:15,600 --> 00:58:19,520
Speaker 2: what did they accomplish. We've discussed this Western Conference as

1149
00:58:19,560 --> 00:58:22,560
Speaker 2: being an absolute blood bath going into the season, and

1150
00:58:22,600 --> 00:58:25,880
Speaker 2: guess what, it was an absolute blood bath. We talked

1151
00:58:25,880 --> 00:58:29,760
Speaker 2: about there being seven legitimate contenders in the Western Conference,

1152
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:32,080
Speaker 2: and they've won it. They won the conference, and they

1153
00:58:32,120 --> 00:58:34,360
Speaker 2: won it relatively easily. Obviously a little bit of a

1154
00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:37,880
Speaker 2: threat from Denver. They've played some really good teams. I

1155
00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:42,160
Speaker 2: think it's pretty undeniable that if they close this out,

1156
00:58:42,240 --> 00:58:44,920
Speaker 2: they're one of the great single season champions. Obviously, you

1157
00:58:44,920 --> 00:58:47,840
Speaker 2: got to sustain, and the NBA has a weird way

1158
00:58:47,880 --> 00:58:50,640
Speaker 2: of just positioning new adversity and your path. Just ask

1159
00:58:50,760 --> 00:58:53,960
Speaker 2: Celtics fans, like as they lose to in a series,

1160
00:58:54,000 --> 00:58:56,440
Speaker 2: they were a minus eight hundred favorite. But yeah, like

1161
00:58:56,480 --> 00:58:59,760
Speaker 2: i I've been so, I thought game I thought Game

1162
00:58:59,800 --> 00:59:04,400
Speaker 2: four against Minnesota was the defining moment of this playoff

1163
00:59:04,440 --> 00:59:08,200
Speaker 2: run in the sense that you have Shay putting together

1164
00:59:08,280 --> 00:59:11,000
Speaker 2: probably the best individual game of his career in that

1165
00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:14,480
Speaker 2: like he was fake that Minnesota completely shifted their scheme

1166
00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:17,400
Speaker 2: and played a very similar type of like pack. The

1167
00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:19,920
Speaker 2: paint forced him to make decisions and over the top

1168
00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:22,320
Speaker 2: shots to what Oklahoma said he was doing to ant

1169
00:59:22,680 --> 00:59:26,520
Speaker 2: and he had forty and ten assists in that same game.

1170
00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:28,960
Speaker 2: J dub, the guy who's been consistently criticized as a

1171
00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:34,120
Speaker 2: guy who doesn't show up, just was fucking awesome. And

1172
00:59:34,160 --> 00:59:37,480
Speaker 2: then Chet Holmgren hitting huge catch and shoot threes, their

1173
00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:41,000
Speaker 2: defense hold it like Game four against Minnesota to me

1174
00:59:41,240 --> 00:59:44,840
Speaker 2: was like the kids growing up and them showing that

1175
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:48,200
Speaker 2: all of the demons that stood in their way they

1176
00:59:48,480 --> 00:59:50,360
Speaker 2: were able to conquer and get the job done. And

1177
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:52,640
Speaker 2: I think they absolutely are one of those special teams.

1178
00:59:52,640 --> 00:59:55,320
Speaker 2: And frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if they won the

1179
00:59:55,320 --> 00:59:57,640
Speaker 2: title again next year. I mean, honestly, let me just

1180
00:59:57,840 --> 01:00:00,840
Speaker 2: this will be my last little thing towards to ask you,

1181
01:00:01,200 --> 01:00:03,800
Speaker 2: what do you if you, let's say Oklahoma City wins,

1182
01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:06,400
Speaker 2: what do you think would be the preseason odds for

1183
01:00:06,440 --> 01:00:08,640
Speaker 2: Oklahoma City to win the title next year?

1184
01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:16,320
Speaker 1: Plus one fifty plus two hundred. So here's my thing.

1185
01:00:17,600 --> 01:00:22,160
Speaker 1: Is san Antonio getting y honest? If san Antonio gets Yannis,

1186
01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:24,600
Speaker 1: I think they're an immediate title contender, just point blank.

1187
01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:29,760
Speaker 1: I agree, straight up. If they get Yannis and like

1188
01:00:30,200 --> 01:00:33,080
Speaker 1: some or if somebody else gets honest, like I'm I'm

1189
01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:34,840
Speaker 1: willing to hear that out for sure, and I think

1190
01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:40,080
Speaker 1: those odds would change in some way. But going without

1191
01:00:40,120 --> 01:00:42,720
Speaker 1: knowing who that is, without knowing where Duran is going,

1192
01:00:43,360 --> 01:00:47,600
Speaker 1: I think they open quite low. I would say in

1193
01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:51,040
Speaker 1: terms of the odds, not quite like like to me,

1194
01:00:51,120 --> 01:00:53,400
Speaker 1: it's like, you know Scotti Scheffler in golf right now,

1195
01:00:53,440 --> 01:00:55,880
Speaker 1: you know somebody that like bets on golf, right Like

1196
01:00:56,040 --> 01:00:58,840
Speaker 1: Scotti Scheffler has won like his last three tournaments, right

1197
01:00:59,040 --> 01:01:02,800
Speaker 1: and I think we're looking at it's something like he

1198
01:01:02,920 --> 01:01:06,760
Speaker 1: wins like once every like four times. He wants every

1199
01:01:06,800 --> 01:01:11,720
Speaker 1: three or four times he plays right, so and like

1200
01:01:11,760 --> 01:01:13,520
Speaker 1: with the way he's playing right now, like I kind

1201
01:01:13,560 --> 01:01:15,280
Speaker 1: of think he should be like plus one hundred to

1202
01:01:15,280 --> 01:01:17,520
Speaker 1: plus one fifty every single time that he takes the

1203
01:01:17,560 --> 01:01:21,080
Speaker 1: course because it's just ridiculous, Like he's so far ahead

1204
01:01:21,080 --> 01:01:23,640
Speaker 1: of everybody. It's like a tiger effect thing right now.

1205
01:01:24,840 --> 01:01:27,360
Speaker 1: I kind of think that given that this is the

1206
01:01:27,440 --> 01:01:30,560
Speaker 1: year before Oklahoma City gets expensive and there are gonna

1207
01:01:30,560 --> 01:01:33,080
Speaker 1: be decisions that have to be made in the summer

1208
01:01:33,120 --> 01:01:35,640
Speaker 1: of twenty twenty six, maybe even starting this year, where

1209
01:01:35,640 --> 01:01:37,640
Speaker 1: they have to figure things out in order to get

1210
01:01:37,640 --> 01:01:39,479
Speaker 1: ahead of it. But they also have like a million

1211
01:01:39,560 --> 01:01:41,480
Speaker 1: draft picks to get ahead of it too, and they

1212
01:01:41,480 --> 01:01:44,400
Speaker 1: do a pretty good job drafting. They're not like infallible,

1213
01:01:44,440 --> 01:01:47,120
Speaker 1: like they will take Uzban Jangen Dylan Jones sometimes, but

1214
01:01:47,840 --> 01:01:51,880
Speaker 1: like they're pretty damn good at drafting, right, so they're

1215
01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:54,480
Speaker 1: really well equipped to keep this thing going. And really

1216
01:01:54,480 --> 01:01:56,720
Speaker 1: the financial problems don't start next year, they start the

1217
01:01:56,800 --> 01:02:01,680
Speaker 1: year after. So it's yeah, like they should be very

1218
01:02:01,760 --> 01:02:04,840
Speaker 1: much the favorite going into next year. Old Like, even

1219
01:02:04,880 --> 01:02:06,680
Speaker 1: if they lose the series, I think they should be

1220
01:02:06,680 --> 01:02:09,280
Speaker 1: the favorite going into next year because Jalen and Ched

1221
01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:13,080
Speaker 1: aren't getting worse. Guys, Like, those guys are gonna get better.

1222
01:02:13,200 --> 01:02:16,200
Speaker 1: Ched Olgrin is like scratching the surface of how good

1223
01:02:16,200 --> 01:02:19,080
Speaker 1: he's gonna be. He's nowhere near that level yet, is

1224
01:02:19,120 --> 01:02:24,040
Speaker 1: the crazy thing. So yeah, to me, yeah, this team

1225
01:02:24,160 --> 01:02:28,000
Speaker 1: is awesome. And by the way, like Jadub can we

1226
01:02:28,120 --> 01:02:31,200
Speaker 1: like just like chill on the like, hey, is this

1227
01:02:31,240 --> 01:02:33,880
Speaker 1: guy like a failure or whatever? Is this guy like

1228
01:02:33,880 --> 01:02:36,160
Speaker 1: a guy who doesn't raise the occasion. I'm not saying

1229
01:02:36,160 --> 01:02:38,920
Speaker 1: you did that obviously, but you know in the Minnesota

1230
01:02:38,960 --> 01:02:43,520
Speaker 1: series twenty two points, seven rebounds, four assists, shooting forty

1231
01:02:43,600 --> 01:02:47,880
Speaker 1: nine forty six eighty three. In the Memphis series, I

1232
01:02:47,920 --> 01:02:50,560
Speaker 1: thought he was their best player. Scored over twenty points

1233
01:02:50,560 --> 01:02:54,520
Speaker 1: every game, you know, shot twenty three five and five

1234
01:02:54,640 --> 01:02:58,480
Speaker 1: on fifty four, twenty nine sixty like they didn't really

1235
01:02:58,520 --> 01:03:00,560
Speaker 1: need him to go nuts, but he's still did it

1236
01:03:00,760 --> 01:03:03,880
Speaker 1: most nights and the efficiency can go from time to time.

1237
01:03:03,920 --> 01:03:06,400
Speaker 1: But like his ability to create shots and then he's

1238
01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:09,479
Speaker 1: doing it also while being one of the fifteen best

1239
01:03:09,480 --> 01:03:15,280
Speaker 1: defenders in the league too. It's crazy he is. I

1240
01:03:15,360 --> 01:03:19,080
Speaker 1: continue to say this. We did a show on my podcast,

1241
01:03:19,120 --> 01:03:23,000
Speaker 1: what like maybe a year and twenty year in two

1242
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:25,440
Speaker 1: months ago, year in three months ago, like the guys

1243
01:03:25,440 --> 01:03:27,880
Speaker 1: that are like rising stars in the NBA, right, like

1244
01:03:27,920 --> 01:03:30,320
Speaker 1: the guys that aren't getting talked about enough. And my

1245
01:03:30,360 --> 01:03:33,240
Speaker 1: first pick was Jalen Williams because it's like, I do

1246
01:03:33,280 --> 01:03:36,520
Speaker 1: not think people understand how hard it is to find

1247
01:03:36,640 --> 01:03:39,680
Speaker 1: this skill set in a single player who can shoot,

1248
01:03:39,800 --> 01:03:43,040
Speaker 1: create his own shot, defend at a high level, switch

1249
01:03:43,080 --> 01:03:46,040
Speaker 1: against one through like four and a half, let's call it,

1250
01:03:46,640 --> 01:03:49,520
Speaker 1: like these guys are impossible to find like he is.

1251
01:03:50,600 --> 01:03:52,760
Speaker 1: This is like a Jimmy Butler. This is like this

1252
01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:56,240
Speaker 1: era is coming Up's Jimmy Butler and he might get

1253
01:03:56,240 --> 01:03:58,959
Speaker 1: one like when he's twenty three or twenty four years old.

1254
01:03:59,160 --> 01:04:02,600
Speaker 1: Is where we're at, Like, yeah, he.

1255
01:04:03,040 --> 01:04:05,560
Speaker 2: Has the competitiveness too. There's just there's like there's like

1256
01:04:05,600 --> 01:04:07,880
Speaker 2: a layer of competitiveness that really I think goes down

1257
01:04:07,880 --> 01:04:09,720
Speaker 2: the roster with Oklahoma City. We were actually talking about

1258
01:04:09,760 --> 01:04:11,720
Speaker 2: this on play back the other night, Like I would

1259
01:04:11,880 --> 01:04:15,520
Speaker 2: argue that that's one of the most underrated basketball trades.

1260
01:04:15,560 --> 01:04:17,360
Speaker 2: It's like how much of a how much do you

1261
01:04:17,520 --> 01:04:19,840
Speaker 2: hate losing? Like how much are you willing to put

1262
01:04:19,880 --> 01:04:21,919
Speaker 2: it on the line to prevent the loss? And he's

1263
01:04:22,000 --> 01:04:24,400
Speaker 2: just one of those classic guys. I think it's so

1264
01:04:24,400 --> 01:04:27,320
Speaker 2: funny that you said we literally landed on the exact

1265
01:04:27,320 --> 01:04:29,280
Speaker 2: same number. We had a little exercise where we were like,

1266
01:04:29,320 --> 01:04:31,919
Speaker 2: what what would be the championship odds for Oklahoma City

1267
01:04:31,920 --> 01:04:34,080
Speaker 2: at open next year? And we both said the same

1268
01:04:34,080 --> 01:04:37,320
Speaker 2: thing right around that one fifty plus one fifty range.

1269
01:04:37,400 --> 01:04:40,760
Speaker 2: I I'm not as worried about the big picture costs

1270
01:04:41,040 --> 01:04:43,520
Speaker 2: stuff because I think I think I think they're just

1271
01:04:44,080 --> 01:04:45,880
Speaker 2: I think they're literally just going to try to use

1272
01:04:45,920 --> 01:04:48,440
Speaker 2: the draft to find supplemental role player talent. Yeah, I

1273
01:04:48,440 --> 01:04:50,040
Speaker 2: think that's what they're gonna do. I think they're gonna

1274
01:04:50,160 --> 01:04:52,000
Speaker 2: I think they're gonna have their max guys, and I

1275
01:04:52,000 --> 01:04:55,080
Speaker 2: think they're just gonna rotate through trusting their draft department.

1276
01:04:55,240 --> 01:04:56,760
Speaker 2: I like, I don't think they're going to trade a

1277
01:04:56,800 --> 01:04:59,640
Speaker 2: bunch of draft picks for their generations. Dorian Finney Smith.

1278
01:04:59,800 --> 01:05:01,560
Speaker 2: You know what I mean, Like they're gonna for a

1279
01:05:01,560 --> 01:05:04,920
Speaker 2: twenty million dollar role player. They're gonna be targeting smart

1280
01:05:05,520 --> 01:05:09,919
Speaker 2: upperclassmen that have been playing in organized programs for great

1281
01:05:09,920 --> 01:05:12,479
Speaker 2: coaches that they can trust to come in and play

1282
01:05:12,520 --> 01:05:14,600
Speaker 2: ten to fifteen minutes in a playoff game. You know,

1283
01:05:15,600 --> 01:05:18,320
Speaker 2: basically the case on Wallace types. Uh, Like they're gonna

1284
01:05:18,320 --> 01:05:20,200
Speaker 2: be They're gonna be hunting those guys NonStop. And I

1285
01:05:20,200 --> 01:05:22,320
Speaker 2: think they'll pivot off of expensive role players and they'll

1286
01:05:22,360 --> 01:05:25,000
Speaker 2: trust their core, and I think they're here to stay,

1287
01:05:25,600 --> 01:05:27,240
Speaker 2: and I think that is an excellent coach.

1288
01:05:27,840 --> 01:05:30,840
Speaker 1: You bring up like the competitiveness thing, and like the

1289
01:05:30,840 --> 01:05:32,960
Speaker 1: basketball I qu thing, this is part of their process,

1290
01:05:33,000 --> 01:05:34,880
Speaker 1: Like this is what they look for, Like this is

1291
01:05:35,800 --> 01:05:38,600
Speaker 1: exactly what they're I've been talking about this for multiple

1292
01:05:38,680 --> 01:05:43,240
Speaker 1: years now. They look for dribble, pass, shoot, defend, real

1293
01:05:43,280 --> 01:05:47,840
Speaker 1: positional size, length, and competitiveness. Like those are the things

1294
01:05:48,000 --> 01:05:50,720
Speaker 1: that if you have those boxes and you tick those boxes,

1295
01:05:51,200 --> 01:05:53,840
Speaker 1: you can play for this team. If you can't, then

1296
01:05:53,960 --> 01:05:56,040
Speaker 1: you're you know, not everybody's gonna tick every single one

1297
01:05:56,080 --> 01:05:57,520
Speaker 1: of those boxes, but you need to be able to

1298
01:05:57,560 --> 01:06:00,360
Speaker 1: like potentially get there at some point to be able

1299
01:06:00,400 --> 01:06:03,800
Speaker 1: to tick that box. And you know, if you don't

1300
01:06:03,880 --> 01:06:07,080
Speaker 1: hit a certain threshold in all of those categories, you

1301
01:06:07,120 --> 01:06:10,080
Speaker 1: probably are not an Oklahoma City Thunder guy. And to me,

1302
01:06:11,320 --> 01:06:13,959
Speaker 1: they were just so far ahead of it in terms

1303
01:06:14,040 --> 01:06:17,160
Speaker 1: of the rest of the league where they knew that

1304
01:06:17,240 --> 01:06:19,960
Speaker 1: these guys were the most valuable guys and they put

1305
01:06:20,000 --> 01:06:22,160
Speaker 1: their stamp on it by going out and getting Alex

1306
01:06:22,240 --> 01:06:25,800
Speaker 1: Caruso this summer through our tourist carness of this incompetence,

1307
01:06:25,800 --> 01:06:29,480
Speaker 1: but like you know, they're always there to take advantage

1308
01:06:29,480 --> 01:06:33,040
Speaker 1: of those front offices that maybe don't value a player

1309
01:06:33,160 --> 01:06:36,560
Speaker 1: quite a quite enough and get the right value for them.

1310
01:06:36,600 --> 01:06:42,200
Speaker 2: So yeah, anybody, anybody could have traded for Drew Holiday,

1311
01:06:42,280 --> 01:06:45,160
Speaker 2: you know, anybody gelt like these guys are a lot.

1312
01:06:45,400 --> 01:06:48,560
Speaker 2: It's the it's the market inefficiency right now, Like, how

1313
01:06:48,720 --> 01:06:50,720
Speaker 2: how how often in this playoff run did we see

1314
01:06:50,760 --> 01:06:52,520
Speaker 2: a really good player? I thought Julius Randall was the

1315
01:06:52,560 --> 01:06:55,040
Speaker 2: latest example in that in like Game four of the

1316
01:06:55,080 --> 01:06:57,479
Speaker 2: Oklahoma City series, where like when things don't go their way,

1317
01:06:57,600 --> 01:06:59,880
Speaker 2: they just kind of shut down, like there's a lot

1318
01:06:59,920 --> 01:07:01,560
Speaker 2: of guys who are like that, Like it's it's like

1319
01:07:01,600 --> 01:07:05,280
Speaker 2: a fight or flight response, and like you, when the

1320
01:07:05,320 --> 01:07:07,280
Speaker 2: shit gets tough, do you have a dude who like

1321
01:07:07,360 --> 01:07:10,680
Speaker 2: knuckles down and like really tries to just find a

1322
01:07:10,720 --> 01:07:13,400
Speaker 2: way to impact winning one way or another. It's I

1323
01:07:13,440 --> 01:07:16,400
Speaker 2: think it's I think it's such an important foundational basketball trade.

1324
01:07:16,440 --> 01:07:18,800
Speaker 2: But Sam, I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to

1325
01:07:18,840 --> 01:07:20,919
Speaker 2: come on the show. Tell everybody where they can find

1326
01:07:20,920 --> 01:07:21,320
Speaker 2: your work.

1327
01:07:22,040 --> 01:07:24,920
Speaker 1: Go to the Game Theory podcast over on YouTube. We

1328
01:07:25,080 --> 01:07:28,360
Speaker 1: just passed like forty thousand subscribers, so we're doing great

1329
01:07:28,360 --> 01:07:31,439
Speaker 1: over there. We appreciate you guys immensely for coming over

1330
01:07:31,920 --> 01:07:35,440
Speaker 1: and hitting that button. Go go to the Athletic Keep

1331
01:07:35,440 --> 01:07:37,560
Speaker 1: Me Employed over there, where I write about the NBA

1332
01:07:37,680 --> 01:07:41,160
Speaker 1: Draft as well the NBA Draft Guide, which is the big,

1333
01:07:41,240 --> 01:07:43,400
Speaker 1: like one hundred and fifty thousand word thing I write

1334
01:07:43,440 --> 01:07:46,160
Speaker 1: about all of the prospects in the draft that will

1335
01:07:46,200 --> 01:07:51,360
Speaker 1: be forthcoming relatively soon. I don't want to put a

1336
01:07:51,440 --> 01:07:53,480
Speaker 1: date on it because I don't want to jinx the

1337
01:07:53,520 --> 01:07:55,680
Speaker 1: fact that if I put a date on it, things

1338
01:07:55,720 --> 01:08:00,320
Speaker 1: could get hairy. But like could be as soon his

1339
01:08:00,360 --> 01:08:04,600
Speaker 1: next week, let's say so. Once that goes live. Go

1340
01:08:04,680 --> 01:08:07,680
Speaker 1: hit the subscribe button, go hit the you know, go

1341
01:08:07,880 --> 01:08:09,600
Speaker 1: go subscribe to the New York Times and all that

1342
01:08:09,600 --> 01:08:11,400
Speaker 1: stuff where I go work.

1343
01:08:11,440 --> 01:08:14,760
Speaker 2: So yeah, and guys, Sam and I talked before the show.

1344
01:08:14,880 --> 01:08:16,519
Speaker 2: He will be coming on at some point later in

1345
01:08:16,560 --> 01:08:18,679
Speaker 2: the month to he's I think he's the best guy

1346
01:08:18,680 --> 01:08:21,200
Speaker 2: cover in the draft, and so we're as you guys know,

1347
01:08:21,320 --> 01:08:24,519
Speaker 2: I basically completely ignore the draft until right after the finals,

1348
01:08:24,520 --> 01:08:27,240
Speaker 2: and so although there's been a little bit more Cooper Flag,

1349
01:08:28,360 --> 01:08:31,240
Speaker 2: you know, kind of motivation this year, but like we're

1350
01:08:31,240 --> 01:08:32,920
Speaker 2: gonna have Sam on and we're gonna talk a lot

1351
01:08:32,960 --> 01:08:36,559
Speaker 2: of NBA Draft stuff when we get later into the month. Sam, again,

1352
01:08:36,600 --> 01:08:38,280
Speaker 2: thank you so much for the time. I will give

1353
01:08:38,280 --> 01:08:39,680
Speaker 2: you a call sometime in the next week too, so

1354
01:08:39,680 --> 01:08:41,040
Speaker 2: we can catch up and just see how you're doing

1355
01:08:41,080 --> 01:08:43,880
Speaker 2: over there. But as always, we appreciate you guys for

1356
01:08:43,920 --> 01:08:45,760
Speaker 2: supporting us and supporting the show. Make sure you guys

1357
01:08:45,800 --> 01:08:48,559
Speaker 2: head over and subscribe to Sam's YouTube channel and his

1358
01:08:48,600 --> 01:08:50,920
Speaker 2: work on the Athletic and we will see you guys

1359
01:08:51,040 --> 01:09:01,960
Speaker 2: tomorrow for the top five storylines of the NBA Finals.