Speaker 1: What I'm trying to warn you about what about spoilers.
Speaker 1: Today there will be major spoilers from Sodi's Run Them
Speaker 1: Let that regard it, Disney's What If, and not even
Speaker 1: the watcher knows what else. Okay, fine, great, thank you
Speaker 1: for this, I love you.
Speaker 2: Hello.
Speaker 1: Welcome to episode six of Extra Revision of the crook
Speaker 1: Of podcast, where we dive deep into your favorite shows, movies, comics,
Speaker 1: pop culture and more. Today we are covering the finale
Speaker 1: of the Disney Plus show What If and giving our
Speaker 1: thoughts on the pure, uncut insanity that is Venom Let
Speaker 1: there Be Cardage and so much more. But first, welcome
Speaker 1: back to the show writer, comic book whiz pop culture prophet,
Speaker 1: the Great Rosie Night. Rosie, Hello, Hello, how are you doing.
Speaker 1: I'm doing great. I've my brain has been absolutely shattered
Speaker 1: by the venom Let their Becardage experience, so let's talk
Speaker 1: about it. Quick quick recap for the folks. This is,
Speaker 1: of course, the second Venom movie and spoiler alert, a
Speaker 1: bridge for Venom to enter the MCU, directed by mocap
Speaker 1: Whiz Andy Circus, written by Kelly Marcel of Saving Mister
Speaker 1: Banks in Fifty Shades of Grave fame a quick recap
Speaker 1: if that's necessary. Venom and Tom Hardy's Eddie Brock have
Speaker 1: deepened their relationship, but of course, like any relationship, they've
Speaker 1: entered that rocky phase, that kind of like post I
Speaker 1: love you phase where it's like, Okay, now it's time
Speaker 1: to do the dishes. Now it's time to clean the apartment,
Speaker 1: or not clean the apartment apparently, and uh, you know,
Speaker 1: a Venom would like to eat people, Eddie Brock is like, no,
Speaker 1: please don't. Meanwhile, a piece of the symbiote has gotten
Speaker 1: free during Eddie Brock's interview with the serial killer Cletus Cassidy,
Speaker 1: and guess what, Carnage is born. This movie is purely insane, Rosie.
Speaker 3: I mean, everything that you just said sounds like it
Speaker 3: couldn't fit into eighty five minutes. And what you were
Speaker 3: talking about was literally like the first fifteen minutes of
Speaker 3: the movie.
Speaker 1: Well that let me just say this, eighty five minutes
Speaker 1: a brisk eighty five like it goes Yeah, it wastes
Speaker 1: absolutely no time getting to the mid credit scene, which
Speaker 1: is really the important thing. I love eighty five to
Speaker 1: ninety minute movies, and this is one of those.
Speaker 3: Ninety minute movies. Is like I always say, like if
Speaker 3: a movie's ninety minutes, I'm probably gonna enjoy it. But
Speaker 3: I was not prepared for a big budget, big two
Speaker 3: superhero movie to be a five minute. It's like we
Speaker 3: are living in the three hour Like I saw this
Speaker 3: on this same day There's No Time to Die, which
Speaker 3: was really good, but it's like two hours and forty
Speaker 3: five minutes. So I went into this thinking it would
Speaker 3: be like two hours and twenty minutes long, and suddenly
Speaker 3: it was the end of the movie, and I was like, WHOA,
Speaker 3: what just happened? Like it is absolutely unhinged. It took
Speaker 3: everything that I thought they would never carry over from
Speaker 3: the first movie, and they just put only that in
Speaker 3: the second movie. They cut out the kind of cinematic
Speaker 3: backstories and the and the stuff that tried to make
Speaker 3: the first movie a long and be story based, I guess,
Speaker 3: and instead they were just like it's Tom Hardy and
Speaker 3: he's playing Venom and Eddie Brock they're both unhinged. And
Speaker 3: also here's Michelle Williams with some unbelievable line reads.
Speaker 1: Just Michelle Williams is in this movie, Like I need
Speaker 1: to put the down payment on my lake house, like yeah, energy,
Speaker 1: like I'm here to make sure my kids fund is
Speaker 1: firmly established.
Speaker 3: In the first movie, she actually has like my favorite line,
Speaker 3: which is near the end of the first movie, after
Speaker 3: everything that's happened, when Venom has apparently been blown up
Speaker 3: or something. They're sitting on this street looking over like
Speaker 3: the beautiful late San Francisco stealin and she looks at
Speaker 3: him and she's like, really sincere. She's like, sorry about Venom.
Speaker 3: Like I say that all the time because I'm like,
Speaker 3: what do you mean He's like an alien who took
Speaker 3: over this guy's body, Like, what what do you mean?
Speaker 3: Sorry about Veniam? But in this movie, every line she
Speaker 3: delivers is on that level of incredibleness. Like they're in
Speaker 3: a restaurant and she's like, is Venom in there? And
Speaker 3: she's like, yeah, secretly talk to Venom. And it's just
Speaker 3: like I can't fathom. When I watched the movie, I'm like,
Speaker 3: this is a true time capsule of the time we're in,
Speaker 3: because there is just no way that this movie exists
Speaker 3: at any other period of time. There's just no way.
Speaker 1: Part of the issue and part of why this movie
Speaker 1: is insane, this is let me just bottom line it,
Speaker 1: this is not a good movie, but there are things
Speaker 1: about it, much like the first Venom movie, that are
Speaker 1: so insane that I'm really glad that they're there because
Speaker 1: they're so weird. That said, no one in this film
Speaker 1: reacts the way a human being would react to literally anything.
Speaker 1: There is one point where missus Chen.
Speaker 3: The missus Chen, the grocery store.
Speaker 1: Owner who remember from the first episode, miss Chen is
Speaker 1: is hard at work and a venom host right, so,
Speaker 1: like Venom and Eddie have been separated, and Venom is
Speaker 1: jumping from body body and absolutely just burning, just killing bodies,
Speaker 1: out killing people. A venom host wanders into missus Chen's store,
Speaker 1: so it's Venom and a different body and collapses and
Speaker 1: and pukes. It's like the blackness coming out of like
Speaker 1: and and looks like on the edge of death. And
Speaker 1: missus Chen like lovingly cradles this half corpses head to
Speaker 1: her chest like a like a mother cray lak er child.
Speaker 1: It's like what And the theater is guffawing loud. You
Speaker 1: knew that it was gonna be nuts. When the movie
Speaker 1: opens with the Chiron nineteen ninety six and we see
Speaker 1: a younger version of Cleatus Cassidy played by Jack Bandira.
Speaker 1: So this is the younger version of Woody Harrelsoon's character.
Speaker 1: Woody Harrelson was about thirty five thirty six in nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety six. He's being played by like a twenty three
Speaker 1: year old man in this flashback, and they dub Woody
Speaker 1: Harrelson's voice now over the performance of Jack Bandera as
Speaker 1: young Kleatus. It is that choice alone is so fucking crazy,
Speaker 1: and you knew when that happened that you were in
Speaker 1: for this shit.
Speaker 3: And and so like the funniest thing about that is
Speaker 3: like that is the most unhinged thing about opening, But
Speaker 3: it almost isn't because like you we're we're introduced to
Speaker 3: them because they're like, so it's Cletus and U Shriek,
Speaker 3: who's Frances Barrison, Ye know me Harris when she's older,
Speaker 3: And they're communicating through their toilets like it's like a
Speaker 3: romantic toilet sister is like they have to put their
Speaker 3: faces next to their toilets to talk to each other
Speaker 3: in this like terrible orphanage there. And also the other
Speaker 3: thing that kind of blew my mind about that opening
Speaker 3: is they just straight up basically say that Shriek is
Speaker 3: a mutant. She's like, she's like, oh, the mutations are
Speaker 3: too strong, And I was like, whoa, I didn't even know,
Speaker 3: like Marvel anyone could say the word mutation, like what's
Speaker 3: going on here? And uh and yeah, I mean that,
Speaker 3: it's just that when they dubbed Woody Harrison's voice, you
Speaker 3: just know you're in for it. You're like, it's it's,
Speaker 3: it's it's things are going on. I mean, well, they
Speaker 3: just so obviously like they wanted to get to the
Speaker 3: end of that, and they wanted to do some cool fights,
Speaker 3: and they wanted to through the mid credit scene. So
Speaker 3: halfway through the movie, they're just like, uh, what's Woody
Speaker 3: Harrison been in before Natural Born Killers? And then they
Speaker 3: just do like twenty minutes of Natural Born Killers with
Speaker 3: him and.
Speaker 1: Shriek, down to his outfit, down to the car, down
Speaker 1: to the way they are driving around. Naomi Harris, you
Speaker 1: want to talk at line reads Naomi Harris in this film, man,
Speaker 1: She's one of the greats. I love her.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: How crazy Also to be like, you saw her in
Speaker 1: two movies that day and it could not be the
Speaker 1: oh yeah in No U of Polar opposites truly, like
Speaker 1: No Time to Die.
Speaker 3: She is just the absolute like smoothest, Yeah, incredible. You
Speaker 3: just watch her and you're like wow, like I just
Speaker 3: want to see like the movie only about Moneypenny, Like
Speaker 3: that's all I want to see. This is just pure
Speaker 3: in this movie, she's just chewing scenery and venom. She's
Speaker 3: loving life. There's that one scene where she's like, he's like,
Speaker 3: I think it's the guy from Veep Dan, and he's
Speaker 3: like Dan was also named Dan in this movie.
Speaker 1: Strangely, they made the decision in movie one to be
Speaker 1: like this actor's most famous role is named Dan, so
Speaker 1: we'll just make him his most famous role is also
Speaker 1: named Dan, so let's also call him Dan. And he
Speaker 1: completely confusing.
Speaker 3: He only has like one he is playing. Even though
Speaker 3: he's not like a total scumbag like he wasn't deep,
Speaker 3: he definitely has a similar energy. So it is like
Speaker 3: really confusing. And then so he says something like he's like, oh,
Speaker 3: you know, Venom's gonna kill you or he's gonna kill
Speaker 3: both of you because they kidnapped Michelle Williams, who's obviously
Speaker 3: not that bothered about it, and she does this line
Speaker 3: reading that is just so iconic because she's like people
Speaker 3: tried it before, and then she just really high pitches
Speaker 3: it and she's like botched it, and you're just like,
Speaker 3: this is unbelievable. Like she is having so much fun.
Speaker 3: I just kind of love that, Like I feel like
Speaker 3: Andy sex is. Their action was just like do whatever
Speaker 3: you want.
Speaker 1: Yeah, do more, do more, and again, this movie is
Speaker 1: super weird, kind of bad, but they take so many
Speaker 1: crazy like listen, the relationship between Brock and Venom is
Speaker 1: essentially a codependent romantic relationship. Again, at the end of
Speaker 1: the movie, Venom tells Eddie Brock that he loves him
Speaker 1: in a very sincere way, and they spend the entire
Speaker 1: movie when they are together arguing. They then separate. Venom
Speaker 1: goes on this weird like vision quest where he goes
Speaker 1: to a rave.
Speaker 3: That's kind of coded as a Pride yeates lots of rainbows,
Speaker 3: and then he gives a speech about how he's.
Speaker 1: Coming rainbow lights around his body.
Speaker 3: It's it's like, I think that actually, like that the
Speaker 3: one thing that I'm like, they should have just committed
Speaker 3: to that and just made it pride and made it
Speaker 3: obviously they're gay, because everybody knows they're in love with
Speaker 3: each other, like these two codependent, toxic losers in their
Speaker 3: own words.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 3: That was another bit when he was like, you are
Speaker 3: a loser on your planet, and I was like, oh
Speaker 3: my god, this is like the line that I never
Speaker 3: thought we would hear from again where they just both
Speaker 3: call each other losers and admit to being losers. That
Speaker 3: is in the first like five minutes of the movie.
Speaker 3: And he was like, I know what you want. You
Speaker 3: want Venom to talk about how he's a Loser's like yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: Another Like there's so many crazy moments. So at one
Speaker 1: point during the Natural Born Killer's Escapade, Cassidy and Shriek
Speaker 1: are driving around and they stop at a gas station
Speaker 1: where the clerk is just like surfing the internet like
Speaker 1: on a Dell laptop. Cassidy jumps over the counter, kills
Speaker 1: the gas station attendant, and then puts his symbiote fingers
Speaker 1: into the US people hacks. Legitimately hacks the laptop to
Speaker 1: discover the location of the asylum where a shrink was
Speaker 1: being held, and it like creates a browser.
Speaker 3: It creates a red carnage themed browser that somehow from
Speaker 3: a random kid working in a Badega's laptop hacks into
Speaker 3: like top secret police files that the main cop did
Speaker 3: not know about. He didn't even know about them, the
Speaker 3: one cop.
Speaker 4: I mean.
Speaker 3: Also, the other thing is like on a comic book level.
Speaker 3: So Shriek in the comics is a is a symbia,
Speaker 3: she's not. Yes, And we also meet this Patrick Mulligan
Speaker 3: who's played by like legitimately one of the best actors
Speaker 3: in the world, Stephen Graham, and and like he is
Speaker 3: just the funniest like Boston cop kind of trope. And
Speaker 3: he in the comics becomes Toxin. So it's like that
Speaker 3: kind of hot. It was like somebody was trying to
Speaker 3: set up like a planet venom, like multiple symbias.
Speaker 4: But then they were just like eh because because because
Speaker 4: Shrink is.
Speaker 3: Apparently dead at the end of the movie.
Speaker 1: Interesting, So this is this is a perfect bridge to
Speaker 1: start talking about the the universe's expanding tagline from the
Speaker 1: promo materials, which we all assumed would be We're gonna
Speaker 1: get these asexual spawns of carnage and venom. We're gonna
Speaker 1: meet Tocsin, Shreek, et cetera. We're gonna see all the
Speaker 1: kind of like mini symbiotes that have in Marvel cannon
Speaker 1: spun off from Venom. I think that it's we all
Speaker 1: assume that's what it was gonna be. I certainly did.
Speaker 1: And then the mid credits scene comes, and what it
Speaker 1: is is an introduction of Venom into the Marvel timeline.
Speaker 1: I think we're gonna see Venom in uh No Way Home,
Speaker 1: like almost confirmed. Basically, Eddie brock Is is sitting on
Speaker 1: the bed in some shitty hotel, upset about his life.
Speaker 1: He and Vanom are wondering what's next, and then all
Speaker 1: of a sudden, everything changes and they're in this tropical
Speaker 1: location and Peter Parker is on the television uh as
Speaker 1: part of a you know, Daily Bugle editorial comment where
Speaker 1: you know, the Bugle is saying, this guy fucking sucks
Speaker 1: the whole you know, everything that's going on with the
Speaker 1: cereal sucks.
Speaker 3: I think it's the same thing from the end of
Speaker 3: Far From Home. So I think it actually sets it
Speaker 3: up as being basically they join at that moment, which
Speaker 3: is just before No Way Home.
Speaker 1: Yes, and Venom says that guard because apparently.
Speaker 3: Okay, so I okay, so this is what I think.
Speaker 3: So in that scene, right, so they Eddie takes Venom
Speaker 3: on like a romantic holiday, because Venom's dream is that
Speaker 3: he can like put his toes in the sand and
Speaker 3: feel the wind in his hair and then that but
Speaker 3: it's like kind of a scrubby like hotel. And then
Speaker 3: but just before it happens, Venom says something that I
Speaker 3: think is one of the most hilarious and probably gonna
Speaker 3: end up. It seems like a throwaway line, but I
Speaker 3: think it's gonna be a really big part of No
Speaker 3: Way Home. Venom says to Eddie they're watching a telenovela
Speaker 3: and Venom's like, everybody has secrets, and Eddie's like, oh,
Speaker 3: are you hiding something from me? And then Venom says,
Speaker 3: eighty billion years of the Symbia high mind, you don't
Speaker 3: know what we've seen, like you couldn't comprehend it, blah
Speaker 3: blah blah. And he says he's going to show it
Speaker 3: to Eddie. But then this weird like universal change happens
Speaker 3: and they end up in the MCU. But I think
Speaker 3: because when he sees him, he sees Peter Parker. He
Speaker 3: licks the screen. It's as gross as it should be,
Speaker 3: and he's like that guy. And when we see in
Speaker 3: the trailer for Noway Home when we saw Doc Cok,
Speaker 3: he also recognized Peter, So I think there's gonna be
Speaker 3: some idea of like in the Venom's case, he maybe
Speaker 3: he has seen Peter through the Tota Grace is not
Speaker 3: coming back, but maybe something like that is gonna happen,
Speaker 3: and it's I think it's like, it's very silly, but
Speaker 3: this whole movie is really silly.
Speaker 1: I think that's right. So in the comics, eventually we
Speaker 1: get the backstory of the symbiote, who I believe is
Speaker 1: named Clerk and uh because of all the kind of
Speaker 1: like bloodlust and trauma and murders that he's committed. Eventually
Speaker 1: he goes back to the Hive Mind where he's like cleansed.
Speaker 1: Maybe we get some kind of version of that that
Speaker 1: allows Venom to not be the weird Sodi Venom and
Speaker 1: and kind of like cleanses it of all the strangers
Speaker 1: and makes it more malleable. For the MCU inclusion, I
Speaker 1: think that they're.
Speaker 3: Probably gonna just like my feeling is, I couldn't really
Speaker 3: want it was blowing my mind when you first watched
Speaker 3: that movie. You just can't be prepared for it. Even
Speaker 3: if you've listened to us talk about it. Now, you
Speaker 3: can't really be prepared.
Speaker 1: EXPERI cannot. You are not ready for how fucking crazy
Speaker 1: this day movie? You just simply are not.
Speaker 3: So you're just not. I saw it like again and
Speaker 3: I still wasn't prepared even though I had already seen it.
Speaker 3: So I do think that there's I just think there's
Speaker 3: kind of some I was trying to work out. Kevin
Speaker 3: Faggy is like a king of quality control. Part of
Speaker 3: the reason they're having to explode the MCU into this
Speaker 3: multi verse now is because of how absolutely streamlined it's
Speaker 3: been up until this point, so it doesn't to me.
Speaker 3: I was like, what can Faggy and the MCU and
Speaker 3: Disney get out of this by not making it something
Speaker 3: where Tom Holland just randomly has a cameo to make
Speaker 3: Sony happy or whatever and making it where you bring venomin.
Speaker 3: I think it's to get the Symbia into the MCU,
Speaker 3: because then you can you can venomize other characters, you
Speaker 3: can have anti venom you could actually do a black
Speaker 3: Symbia story with Peter or maybe Miles or whatever. And
Speaker 3: I think, really, as much as I would love to
Speaker 3: see how they could fit wild Tom Holland it's just
Speaker 3: it's too wacky. MC Watching that movie, you just realize
Speaker 3: how safe the MCU plays it, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree with that. I think that it's going
Speaker 1: to be something like that as in the comics a
Speaker 1: lot like the movie, the Symbia has a like love
Speaker 1: hate relationship with a lot of its hosts, including Eddie Brock,
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of like leaving and coming back
Speaker 1: and leaving Eddie Brock for Peter Parker, but then rediscovering
Speaker 1: Eddie Brock. And it does that again and again with
Speaker 1: different hosts, and there have been more quote unquote normal hosts.
Speaker 1: So I think that you're right about that. I think
Speaker 1: that we're going to see the I think we're going
Speaker 1: to see the Symbia cleaved off of Eddie at some
Speaker 1: point and maybe kept in a laboratory and studied by
Speaker 1: perhaps a scientist named Reid Richards as they figure out
Speaker 1: a way to kind of introduce the Symbia into like
Speaker 1: the more mainline Marvel canon. That is a lot there's
Speaker 1: just stuff that would not work in Marvel Disney constitution,
Speaker 1: for instance, And again there are so many weird moments
Speaker 1: of this, But like The movie kind of ends with
Speaker 1: Eddie Brock talking to two chickens in the park that
Speaker 1: are his pets that he bought for Venom to eat,
Speaker 1: but Venom didn't want to eat them because their brains
Speaker 1: were too small, and to these and they're best friends.
Speaker 1: Talking to two chickens about the classic Spanish novel Don
Speaker 1: Quixote and the relationship between Don Quixote and Sancho Panza.
Speaker 1: That's a scene in this is also a recurring theme.
Speaker 3: Like it's like it happens once and then he returns there,
Speaker 3: Like it's that's something they really thought was important enough
Speaker 3: to like put in twice. It's mind blowing.
Speaker 1: I think, like so in in Marvel, like, uh, let's
Speaker 1: talk about some of the things that Venom does in
Speaker 1: the comics that we could potentially see in the MCU.
Speaker 1: So Venom, I mean venoms and Guardians in the Galaxy,
Speaker 1: which for a spell which I don't know that people
Speaker 1: really know about.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think as well, like they've had so much success,
Speaker 3: Like they did a big venomized event where everyone got venomized.
Speaker 3: You know, they had a venomized t Rex in Old
Speaker 3: Man Logan, they had venomized rocket and group. They had
Speaker 3: venomized everyone, and those toys still sell to this day.
Speaker 3: My nephew has a venomized Miles Morales. They still keep
Speaker 3: venomizing these characters, seeing what would happen when a character,
Speaker 3: So if they wanted to do a kind of darker
Speaker 3: take on something, you know, we've seen them do Marvel
Speaker 3: Zombies a version of it, and what if I wouldn't
Speaker 3: be surprised if we saw some kind of venomized thing
Speaker 3: or saw an unexpected character like Gwen Poole or something
Speaker 3: be introduced in a venomized way with I think that
Speaker 3: they must be really and also they love military stuff.
Speaker 3: I know that one of the Venom the kind of
Speaker 3: like later stage.
Speaker 1: Agent Agent Agent Agent Venom. The was a vet, right, yeah,
Speaker 1: he was a vet. It was like a paralyzed vet.
Speaker 3: And then the magical the Venom is like a magical
Speaker 3: disability cure. Is very not good to me. But that
Speaker 3: definitely does seem like something they love. A militarized superhero
Speaker 3: that could be an interesting way. Also would be very
Speaker 3: easy for the Symbia to get into the hands of
Speaker 3: the military and the MCU. So also that space is
Speaker 3: a big thing right now, not just in what if
Speaker 3: but with the scrolls and everything else, so we could
Speaker 3: even there could even be something where the tom Hardy
Speaker 3: venom coming into the MCU is not necessarily a fake out,
Speaker 3: but is a bit of a red herring for where
Speaker 3: the real symbia might come from with all the space exploration.
Speaker 1: Actually, you know now that you mention it. It was
Speaker 1: recently revealed that the Symbio and Gore, the God Butcher
Speaker 1: like share a common ancestry.
Speaker 3: That makes a lot of sense when you think about
Speaker 3: Gore's powers.
Speaker 1: Actually, yeah, so I could see the symbia being a
Speaker 1: bridge to love and thunder in some form or fashion
Speaker 1: to get us prepared for the God Butcher.
Speaker 3: Also as well, like if you were going to trust
Speaker 3: one person and one tone in the MCU to bridge
Speaker 3: those it would be tiger like.
Speaker 1: It would tid.
Speaker 3: Humor and the cheekiness, but also with the ability to
Speaker 3: tell like slick human character based stories that you would
Speaker 3: probably need to kind of take venom from the venom.
Speaker 3: Let there be carnage to a venom that's acceptable in
Speaker 3: the MCU.
Speaker 1: Do you have any venom rex for people who are
Speaker 1: like I gotta know about venom?
Speaker 3: Well, I think the number one thing you need to
Speaker 3: read because of it was a it was a let's say,
Speaker 3: and I'm going to put the inverted commas around inspiration,
Speaker 3: but it was definitely an inspiration for this movie. Is
Speaker 3: Venom lethal Protector?
Speaker 1: That's I mean they mentioned it only fifteen twenty times mo.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean they even proceed the coming to the
Speaker 3: MCU where they're like, you know, He's like, we'll go
Speaker 3: wherever they need a lethal protector, and that means a
Speaker 3: lot to Venom because he really wants to be known
Speaker 3: as the lethal Protector. But that's a really classic series
Speaker 3: sees Venom take on more of a he he thinks
Speaker 3: he's a hero because of the threat of other symbias
Speaker 3: and stuff Planet Venom. Also, if you want to know
Speaker 3: more about the kind of characters that we've seen in here,
Speaker 3: I'm I think one of the reasons this movie and
Speaker 3: the first movie was so popular, Venom was such like
Speaker 3: an inherently nineties staple. Yes, there were clothes of Venom,
Speaker 3: there were baseball shirts, there were toys, there was POGs,
Speaker 3: there stationary.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, that was a very ninety.
Speaker 3: I think that we people who grew up in the
Speaker 3: nineties or who were around that whether you were a
Speaker 3: little kid, whether you're a teenager who thought it was cool, whatever,
Speaker 3: that is the buying market for these movies. And I
Speaker 3: think this is the ultimate nostalgia payoff for Sony because
Speaker 3: I just that has to be the reason why people
Speaker 3: go to these So I think looking back to those
Speaker 3: nineties comics is like really fun. Also, the original black
Speaker 3: Suit Symbia Spider Man storyline, it's just really tall. The
Speaker 3: art is amazing. It's really interesting to read, and you
Speaker 3: will be surprised by how how accurate this Spider Man
Speaker 3: three representation is. Like when comparing it to Venom, You're like, wow,
Speaker 3: Spider Man three really was like into the comic book accuracy.
Speaker 1: I also, I will notice that it appears that his
Speaker 1: bracelet budget was cut.
Speaker 3: I know it was disrespectful. It was for the wigs.
Speaker 1: That must have been what it's for, because you know,
Speaker 1: we're talking like a mid five figure bracelet budget. For
Speaker 1: the first movie.
Speaker 3: They let him keep his horrible leather jacket with a
Speaker 3: zip down the middle. That was like it, and then
Speaker 3: they were like, we need to spend at least five
Speaker 3: hundred dollars on Patrick Mulligan's wig. And also Woody Harrison's
Speaker 3: Wig justice for Woody Harrison's original Venom Stinger Wig, though,
Speaker 3: because I would have loved to see this movie. I
Speaker 3: feel like this one wasn't good, but I missed the chaotic,
Speaker 3: noodle headed like red nightmare wig from this Stinger.
Speaker 1: So who are we going to see? Your predictions? Who
Speaker 1: we're going to see? In No Way Home?
Speaker 3: And after that ending, which i'd heard, i'd heard rumblings
Speaker 3: that maybe Tom Holland would be it. I did not
Speaker 3: believe it. I didn't he believe it.
Speaker 1: I was shot fell open.
Speaker 3: I'd heard people saying like, oh, supposedly he's going to
Speaker 3: be in this post credit scene, and I was like, yeah,
Speaker 3: of course he is, sure, Like wink wink, where did
Speaker 3: you get that news from?
Speaker 1: I was wrong?
Speaker 3: So after that, I just think it's all bets are off.
Speaker 3: I think we're definitely obviously seeing the old Spiders. Yeah,
Speaker 3: Andrew and Toby. I'm really hoping if that's the case.
Speaker 3: And now that we've seen that they're open to having
Speaker 3: Tom Hardy's definitely going to be in it, We're gonna
Speaker 3: at least see Eddie Brock. Momentarily. I don't think they're
Speaker 3: going to bring to because I think that it makes
Speaker 3: they can just be like the symbia is the connecting
Speaker 3: tissue there right right. What I'm really hoping is we're
Speaker 3: gonna get to see Nicholas Hammond, who played the Old
Speaker 3: Spider Man in the CBS TV shows. I want to
Speaker 3: see the guy who played Japanese Spider Man. Like, if
Speaker 3: they're really gonna do it, I'm like, let's just do it.
Speaker 3: And after Venomide, no, I would love to see Spider
Speaker 3: Ham Spider Ham's and Icon. I mean, bring in Nicholas
Speaker 3: Cage as yea as Spider Man. I think we could
Speaker 3: see Miles now. I don't know if they would do
Speaker 3: I don't know if they would do something where in
Speaker 3: a momentary animated sequence of the Multiverse we saw into
Speaker 3: the Spider Verse Miles or something. But I think Miles
Speaker 3: is coming soon. I just, I honestly are I never
Speaker 3: saw that venom ending coming, and now I just think
Speaker 3: anyone's going to be in it.
Speaker 1: I wonder if we do see I think we're introduced
Speaker 1: to him, maybe not powered up, but I was thinking,
Speaker 1: you know, who knows what the off ramp here is
Speaker 1: or I don't know what Tom Hardy's contract is, but
Speaker 1: there's a world in which obviously the Sinister Six is
Speaker 1: going to be involved in this. We've got basically everyone now,
Speaker 1: you know, ultimate Peter Parker perishes while fighting the Sinister Six,
Speaker 1: and that paves away for Miles Morales. You know, theoretically,
Speaker 1: that's on the table if they wanted to do that.
Speaker 3: I do think that this movie, we're going to see
Speaker 3: a version of doctor Strange die. We now know there's
Speaker 3: probably multiple versions. I think we're going to see a
Speaker 3: version of Peter die, probably the main version. Tom Holand
Speaker 3: has played this character for a long time. He's old now.
Speaker 3: And also we all know, if you've read the comics,
Speaker 3: those almost Spider Ma comics, there is a part of
Speaker 3: that storyline where you have Peter and Miles together. So
Speaker 3: it's not like Tom Holand couldn't come back. But I
Speaker 3: do think that we're going to see a lot of deaths.
Speaker 3: I think they're going to go for a even though
Speaker 3: it's only been a few years, I think they're going
Speaker 3: to try and go for an endgame style event movie
Speaker 3: that's going to introduce a ton of big cameo moments
Speaker 3: and also some emotional death situation.
Speaker 1: That's a good point because like what is as we're
Speaker 1: looking ahead here, what's the Team Up movie? That's the
Speaker 1: thing that we're missing is the Avengers framework, you know,
Speaker 1: and and the you know, the Captain America acted this
Speaker 1: way too. Is it No Way Home? Or do you
Speaker 1: or is it? Is it mouthed Madness? Do you think
Speaker 1: that is the Team Up movie?
Speaker 3: I think it's probably gonna be Mouth of Madness. I
Speaker 3: think that No Way Home. We're gonna get multiverse, A
Speaker 3: Multiverse of Madness. Yeah, I know, it's that's where they
Speaker 3: took the name from. I think it's okay to get
Speaker 3: it mixed up. Yeah, Doctor Stranger in the Multiverse of Madness.
Speaker 3: I think that's gonna be the team up. You're gonna
Speaker 3: have Wonder, You're gonna have Strange. It's Wonder gonna be
Speaker 3: on his side, who knows. You know, that's potentially where
Speaker 3: you could get some more cosmic characters are clear, Maybe
Speaker 3: you know some Mount Wondergore stuff. We they hinted at
Speaker 3: the other at the end of that's my personal dream.
Speaker 3: I will keep talking about it forever.
Speaker 1: I do.
Speaker 3: Simon Williams wonder Man like. I think they could introduce
Speaker 3: a bunch of different weird characters in there or eventually
Speaker 3: if we see No Way Home as maybe Malivas Madness
Speaker 3: as like a two pot movie because we know Doc
Speaker 3: Strangers both. Maybe No Way Home is going to introduce
Speaker 3: some characters that we will then see Tea Mop in
Speaker 3: Malis Madness.
Speaker 1: I Love it Up. Next, Rosie and I step into
Speaker 1: the airlock where we talk about the finale of What If.
Speaker 1: We're back today. We're stepping out of the airlock and
Speaker 1: into the multiverse to discuss the finale of the first
Speaker 1: season of What If. First, a quick recap, so the
Speaker 1: finale builds on the events of episode eight, What If
Speaker 1: Ultron one, in which post apocalyptic Black Widow and Clint
Speaker 1: make a deal with the devil, in this case the
Speaker 1: Nazi former Nazi, current Nazi, former founder of Shield Arnim Zola,
Speaker 1: and download him into an arrow in the hopes that
Speaker 1: they can use him to to corrupt Ultron. Can't be
Speaker 1: said enough, Arnam Zola, Let's remember this active Nazi and
Speaker 1: that and that leads us into episode nine, What If
Speaker 1: the Watcher Broke is Oath, in which in order to
Speaker 1: defeat Ultron, the Watcher assembles the Guardians of the Multiverse,
Speaker 1: who are these various characters who we have encountered throughout
Speaker 1: the course of this series. They are Captain Carter, Star
Speaker 1: Lord t'chala, a variant of Gomora that killed Thanos in
Speaker 1: her universe, Killmonger, King of Wakanda, Party Thooruh Corrupted Strange,
Speaker 1: and then they meet up with a post apocalyptic gnat
Speaker 1: who has the the Arnomzola arrow. Let's talk about this.
Speaker 3: I love that description. It really it really sums up
Speaker 3: the chaos, the kind.
Speaker 1: Of action I mean, it's an action pat Like, you know,
Speaker 1: there's about eight minutes of setup in which we you know,
Speaker 1: we get a really fun, fun scene of that's basically
Speaker 1: Captain Carter in the opening intro from Captain America Winter Soldier,
Speaker 1: like doing the strike on the Lemurian Star. Like, the
Speaker 1: dialogue is the same, the whole thing is the same.
Speaker 1: She's fighting Batrock the Leaper as the Watcher shows up
Speaker 1: and it's like, okay, we need you to come with me,
Speaker 1: and then we just basically get into it. We see
Speaker 1: Killmonger as well, and then it's like they just get
Speaker 1: into the action. Yeah.
Speaker 3: He just he plucks them from all over and he's
Speaker 3: just like paw, like you need to fight this Evil
Speaker 3: Vision Ultron Combo.
Speaker 1: Now, I will say from an action point of view,
Speaker 1: this felt like the most one of the most comic
Speaker 1: bookie Marvel properties I've seen in terms of the way
Speaker 1: like everybody's abilities work together, the kind of synergy between characters.
Speaker 1: I thought the character choice was very interesting here.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I do think that that episode a where
Speaker 3: we saw the Watcher and Infiniteultroun like punching each other
Speaker 3: through the multiverse, that really was the key point where
Speaker 3: I was like, oh, this is like, this is comic bookie,
Speaker 3: This is like what you can do with something based
Speaker 3: on a comic book. I also think Disney was having
Speaker 3: some fun. I think like Mustafar from Star Wars was
Speaker 3: in there and they were punching through I saw an
Speaker 3: area that like that the area, and then they kind
Speaker 3: of definitely continued that on in the finale with this
Speaker 3: really outrageous just like twenty five minutes of fighting and
Speaker 3: crazy powers and unexpected team ups.
Speaker 1: Now let's talk about first we were talking looking in
Speaker 1: the pre pro about the depiction of the stones here Ultron.
Speaker 1: The way he uses them I think probably the best
Speaker 1: and most accurate like use of the stone, like where
Speaker 1: you really get a feel for how they work for
Speaker 1: me is either their intros in the various Marvel movies
Speaker 1: right where you're over the course of the movie that
Speaker 1: introduces each Stone, you know, Powerstone and Guardians for instance,
Speaker 1: you see what they each do, and then the fight
Speaker 1: on Titan in Infinity War with Panos, I think was
Speaker 1: a good display here. It's as we were talking about,
Speaker 1: it's kind of just like Ultron is very powerful period.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think as well, Like I think something that
Speaker 3: this show did that works on some levels and for
Speaker 3: me makes it a little bit less impactful on others,
Speaker 3: is like it's so heavily based on MCU and MCU
Speaker 3: law that it almost kind of ignores unless it's bringing
Speaker 3: new cool stuff in from the comics like Shimigorath, who
Speaker 3: I love, but like a lot of times like it's
Speaker 3: law is so based on the MCU that here they're
Speaker 3: just kind of like, what are the Infinity Gems do?
Speaker 3: They're powerful, and I'm like, no, I want to see
Speaker 3: this infinite Ultron has the gems. He has this infinite
Speaker 3: understanding of the universe and everything about it. He even
Speaker 3: understands that the gems are different on each universe and
Speaker 3: in each space but like the only thing we see
Speaker 3: him do is just use the timestone like really quickly,
Speaker 3: and I'm like, I want to see I want to
Speaker 3: see what these gems can do in this unbelievable cosmic
Speaker 3: space that they've created, like rather than just making some people.
Speaker 3: Same with kill Manger, he gets those gems and he's
Speaker 3: just like cool, and I'm like, no, do something with them,
Speaker 3: Like you could do it again with them.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 1: With the with the kill Monger part, I could almost
Speaker 1: I could argue it away in the sense that like
Speaker 1: he just picked them up, you know what. I Like,
Speaker 1: like there would be yes, your kind of theoretically your
Speaker 1: consciousness is expanded to like every quarter of the of
Speaker 1: the galaxy and the universe. But I could see there
Speaker 1: being you know, a period in which you're like still
Speaker 1: figuring them out.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And also if he's learning from what he saw from
Speaker 3: Infant Ultron, he wouldn't really know how to use them.
Speaker 3: So yeah, that's actually that's actually really fair.
Speaker 1: So that part was fine, but like Ultron should just
Speaker 1: be really good. He has, by this point in his
Speaker 1: life cycle, has like taken out multiple universes. I think
Speaker 1: at this point.
Speaker 3: He he somehow is able to utilize the power of
Speaker 3: the stones to make himself like a giant cool galactus head,
Speaker 3: and he's looking through different multiverses. It is the ultimate,
Speaker 3: the ultimate quandary of any comic book type story, which
Speaker 3: is the super overpowered villain against the relatively human and.
Speaker 1: Relatable heroes should not lose, right exactly.
Speaker 3: But the big kind of catch there is we have
Speaker 3: like ultra overpowered, unbelievable, corrupted, crazy Strange.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned Strange because listen, if you've
Speaker 1: been on the internet at all, you've seen these like
Speaker 1: meme formats where it's like this Blue Team first Red Team,
Speaker 1: or one's Gotta go, or which selection of five like
Speaker 1: characters from comic book movies beats beats what other selection
Speaker 1: of five characters? And the thing you have to realize
Speaker 1: about doctor Strange is he's overpowered. Like a lot of
Speaker 1: big fights that happen in comic books are like how
Speaker 1: do we how do we get Strange on the sidelines
Speaker 1: for long enough? And it makes sense that they wouldn't
Speaker 1: just win. Doctor Strange at one point in this First
Speaker 1: of all, he like creates a protective ward that saves
Speaker 1: everyone's life a million times in the fight.
Speaker 3: And makes like super cool like cosmic amah. So it's
Speaker 3: like staguly pleasing, and it's also very useful.
Speaker 1: Conjures a three headed dragon like he does all these things.
Speaker 1: He at one point, ultron like creates an explosion that
Speaker 1: is like the size of the galaxy and Strange eats it.
Speaker 1: He literally just is like I'm just gonna swallow this
Speaker 1: and it does nothing to me. Strange is so fucking powerful,
Speaker 1: and it is it is nuts how strong he is.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's basically it's a really it's a really nice
Speaker 3: bit of payoff. I feel like one of the things
Speaker 3: about this show is it's sometimes I wasn't sure if
Speaker 3: it was connected or it wasn't gonna be connected. But
Speaker 3: this is a really good payoff for that episode four
Speaker 3: where it's the and he imbibes all those weird monsters
Speaker 3: and everything, and and I just I liked seeing his
Speaker 3: wild powers here. There's like a nice not You see
Speaker 3: him kind of become or at least inhabit the powers
Speaker 3: of like a schumagor Ath esque tent called creature, and
Speaker 3: he really that almost beats infinite John. And that's really
Speaker 3: cool because in like the old stuff where they're first
Speaker 3: introducing Shumagorath in Marvel premiere. Oh no, I think it's
Speaker 3: actually Strange Tales Volume two fourteen. Schuma and Stranger like
Speaker 3: facing down and is like, if you try and fight me,
Speaker 3: you're gonna become me. And it's like, yeah, like that's
Speaker 3: literally what happened to Strange. It like that was a
Speaker 3: really cool nod. But sadly Schumer cannot ultimately be the
Speaker 3: one thing to be him, so they obviously will have
Speaker 3: to team up, which is the It's the point of
Speaker 3: the Avengers, right or the Guardians of the Multibus. I.
Speaker 1: I also love that the Strange tapped into Schumer gower
Speaker 1: Ath's dimension, his demonic classic, a classic Strange move when
Speaker 1: it's like, Okay, the fight's not going well, break the
Speaker 1: glass on the you know, the emergency switch, and I
Speaker 1: guess I'm gonna have to like tap into some demon
Speaker 1: dimension or like drink the drink the vial of Zong
Speaker 1: and become a demon as he does in like Planet Hulk,
Speaker 1: which is a thing. The thing I love about it is,
Speaker 1: you know Strange wants to do this, like yeah, he
Speaker 1: loves power, he loves he loves it. He's he like
Speaker 1: all day is in the you know, his sanctum, coming
Speaker 1: up with reasons that he shouldn't tap into a demon
Speaker 1: dimension or like drink the vial of zomb but now
Speaker 1: he gets to do it. Yeah, so he he loves
Speaker 1: to do shit like this. Of course it doesn't work,
Speaker 1: and then Strange will spend the next like several story
Speaker 1: arcs dealing with the fallout of I tapped into the
Speaker 1: dimension of Schuma Goraz and now what do I do?
Speaker 1: But I love that. I love that that happened. And yeah,
Speaker 1: thattle scene was that, you know, it was shot really
Speaker 1: well with we're constantly you know, focused on the soul
Speaker 1: gem and it's like, oh, now it's kicking over here,
Speaker 1: and now they can't get it, and now this person
Speaker 1: is trying to get it. Yeah, that was really fun.
Speaker 3: And I think that is something that I think is
Speaker 3: kind of cool is if people have grown up on
Speaker 3: the MCU, which like a lot of people have because
Speaker 3: it's been going on for so long. Now this it
Speaker 3: it's got its own set of easter eggs and references
Speaker 3: that people who maybe haven't really gone into the comics
Speaker 3: but love the MCU. Like when they were having that
Speaker 3: big final fight, it definitely echoed the Battle of New York.
Speaker 3: You know where they're going around, and you get to
Speaker 3: see the different weapons, and you get that circle of
Speaker 3: the kind of Dolly shot almost. I thought that was
Speaker 3: really nice, kind of it's nice to look at what
Speaker 3: came before, while also kind of making something that's it's
Speaker 3: a little bit different.
Speaker 1: I want to shout out the fun Star Wars easter
Speaker 1: egg when when all Shan first shows up and drops
Speaker 1: the mountain on everybody, and he does the all too
Speaker 1: easy just straight out of you know, Empire shregs back
Speaker 1: when Darth thinks he's taken out his son Luke, but
Speaker 1: then he hasn't, and Luke leaps up into the ceiling.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the morality of including some of these characters,
Speaker 1: because there are some. I think there are a few
Speaker 1: head scratchers, genocidal killmonger who listened, he took over Wakanda,
Speaker 1: he killed Tony and killed and T'Challa many people. Obviously
Speaker 1: is one of the smartest and most brilliant strategists that
Speaker 1: we've seen him in, but I think perhaps a head scratcher.
Speaker 1: And then of course active Nazi arnhim Zola again not
Speaker 1: an X, not an active, still loves Nazis, still loves
Speaker 1: the Nazi shit, likesibly doing the Nazi stuff. Or it's the.
Speaker 3: Ultimate curse of the MCU being so tied to Hydra
Speaker 3: Is in the comics Hydra Nazis and even if the
Speaker 3: MCU doesn't want to deal with that, that's just how
Speaker 3: it is. And so that that always kind of I'm like,
Speaker 3: I'm I feel like, surely you could have hank him
Speaker 3: Jarvis Bruce Banner's computer from when he was a kid
Speaker 3: in the eighties and he coded something. I feel like, narratively,
Speaker 3: there's other places you could go. But I also understand
Speaker 3: that Animzolar is like so intricately connected to the MCU
Speaker 3: at this point, so like I get why he's where
Speaker 3: they went, but I wouldn't have gone there. And also
Speaker 3: I just have to say, of course it was Black
Speaker 3: Widow and Clint, like that's the decision.
Speaker 1: That ye folks to me, you know, that's like, hey,
Speaker 1: let's go to the founder. I will say that, like, listen,
Speaker 1: I love Toby Jones. I think he's great. I love
Speaker 1: the voice. I end up there are I spend a
Speaker 1: silly part of my day almost every day doing an
Speaker 1: Arnham Soola voice to myself just like, yes, I am, Oh,
Speaker 1: this body is fantastic. Look at my glutes. It's has
Speaker 1: been such a long times as I am, this feels
Speaker 1: wonderful inside the drawn body.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I mean he really got to do that too. He
Speaker 3: was like as soon as he was in there, I
Speaker 3: was like, well done, guys. You guys made infinite infinite
Speaker 3: on Iimzola, well done, good.
Speaker 1: Good bye moms. Again it's fantastic. But as we were
Speaker 1: talking about in the pre pro like, okay, you need
Speaker 1: an AI because that's how you're gonna defeat. Is there
Speaker 1: not a Jarvist in this world? Like can we not
Speaker 1: ask Jarvis to do it?
Speaker 3: We saw like we saw Sakarian armor Tony stock with Gomora,
Speaker 3: and like, as to a pointed out in the preper like,
Speaker 3: surely that means as a Javis if Tony exists, there
Speaker 3: is a jobis.
Speaker 1: Like that Friday Friday not doing anything like we can't
Speaker 1: get we can't get Friday, and like, in fact, I
Speaker 1: would love to know what Friday is up to in.
Speaker 3: Chilling in a computer somebody like drinking some sea.
Speaker 1: I'm sure Friday would love to get in the game,
Speaker 1: you know, like I'm not sure that it needs to
Speaker 1: be Zola. That said, here is the one way that
Speaker 1: I can talk myself into involving active Nazi Arnam Zola
Speaker 1: as well as genocidal Kilmonger in this I read it
Speaker 1: as kind of like, uh, like a Lord of the Rings,
Speaker 1: why can't we kill Gollum situation? Right? You spend you know,
Speaker 1: the entire second book in most of the third being like, yeah,
Speaker 1: just fucking kill this thing. It's he's going to betray you.
Speaker 1: You could see it. You know it's gonna happen. Why
Speaker 1: can we kill him? And you know, like to the
Speaker 1: point where Gandal's like, well you never know the part
Speaker 1: people gonna plan and you're like, Gandalf's shut up, like
Speaker 1: let's go. I think that you can make a case
Speaker 1: for it because if Strange and the Watcher know that,
Speaker 1: you know, and they say the Watcher knew everything kind
Speaker 1: of knew like what was gonna happen. If the Watcher's
Speaker 1: plan is ultimately to like lock you know, the villains
Speaker 1: into a pocket dimension, and if the Watcher selected the
Speaker 1: Guardians knowing that kill Monger, intoxicated by by power, unable
Speaker 1: to resist the call of the Gems, that he would
Speaker 1: pick them up, and then you would also have to
Speaker 1: have an AI that would corrupt Ultron, making it be
Speaker 1: Arnham and kill Monger, much like goll Those are two
Speaker 1: characters that you don't feel bad about locking into a
Speaker 1: pocket dimension forever because they are immoral kind of bad.
Speaker 1: They're bad guys, they're villains. Whereas if it's like, okay,
Speaker 1: if Captain Carter and Like and Party Thor are are
Speaker 1: the last two, I would you know, who are holding
Speaker 1: down Ultron and the gems, and then we have to
Speaker 1: lock everybody into a pocket man, I would feel bad
Speaker 1: about that. Whereas these two they pick up the gems,
Speaker 1: they're struggling forever, and then I lock them in the
Speaker 1: pocket dimension. I throw away the key and no one
Speaker 1: is like, oh does anybody feel bad about No? Zola
Speaker 1: is an active Nazi, like, let's just get rid of
Speaker 1: this is a terrible this is like the terrible people.
Speaker 1: But I will say, from what we know about old
Speaker 1: corrupt Strange Supreme, I do feel like giving two people
Speaker 1: who are morally corrupt and who have the infinitey Gems
Speaker 1: or a version of the Infinity Gems, and these like
Speaker 1: super sick, almost like doctor Strange not a good person
Speaker 1: to like.
Speaker 3: Sit Strange Supreme power mad Strange Supreme probably like not
Speaker 3: a good person to give them too.
Speaker 1: I will say we we kind of like I did.
Speaker 1: I did wonder if we were trusting corrupt Strange a
Speaker 1: little bit too much, like he had very very recently
Speaker 1: spent a long amount of time like in bibing a
Speaker 1: lot of evil and just kind of like digesting it.
Speaker 3: And ignoring everything the Watcher said. But now I guess
Speaker 3: the idea is it's like a redemption arc, like he
Speaker 3: wants to make up for it. But I feel like
Speaker 3: that could go badly in the future because obviously this
Speaker 3: I did feel like a lot of what was going
Speaker 3: on here was kind of would we will potentially see it?
Speaker 3: And season two it feels like, you know, so something
Speaker 3: I thought they were gonna do. I just wanted, did
Speaker 3: you so there's like six heroes, right. I definitely thought
Speaker 3: at the end they were going to do like an
Speaker 3: Infinity Watch thing where each of them got a gem.
Speaker 3: That seemed like a really smart sim people solution was.
Speaker 1: When they when the initial part of the plan was okay,
Speaker 1: we got we get the soul Stone, and I thought
Speaker 1: that's where it was going to go explain what the
Speaker 1: Infinity Watch is.
Speaker 3: Okay, So after the events of Infinity War, the did
Speaker 3: they decide that the best thing to do to keep
Speaker 3: the stone safe is give them to each of these
Speaker 3: different heroes throughout like the Marvel Universe, and it's Adam
Speaker 3: Warlock in the Infinity Watch, but in because Adam Warlock
Speaker 3: is more of a key player in the Infinity saga
Speaker 3: than we saw in the MCU, which is interesting because
Speaker 3: they definitely did tease him. And then Guardians the Galaxy.
Speaker 1: I think I will be shocked if he is not
Speaker 1: in Guardians three.
Speaker 3: I think so, and I would be really excited to
Speaker 3: see that, to see hit them introduce him at this point.
Speaker 1: So, yeah, the weirdest characters of all time.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I think I thought that. I thought, yeah,
Speaker 3: basically gold Jesus, So I definitely thought that was where
Speaker 3: they were going to go with it. But you know what,
Speaker 3: keeping two people in like a tiny wed pocket dement
Speaker 3: constantly fighting over this one version, that's fine, Sure, go
Speaker 3: for it.
Speaker 1: I wonder at what point do they come out of
Speaker 1: it and be like wait, wait, wait, time out of
Speaker 1: time out? Time are we? Where are we right now?
Speaker 1: As we're still like, at what point do they do
Speaker 1: they realize or do they just like fight literally forever before.
Speaker 3: I do wonder if like we could see like a
Speaker 3: season two or season three like Bottle episode that's just
Speaker 3: those two like having a conversation about oh they will
Speaker 3: get out right, you know that, or just like sitting
Speaker 3: in there and like having a conversation. Maybe teaming up,
Speaker 3: Maybe not, but I definitely could imagine that because that
Speaker 3: was a big part of that Doctor Strange episode was
Speaker 3: kind of the existential like crisis of it or being
Speaker 3: trapped with yourself, but these two are just trapped with
Speaker 3: each other, which is actually probably much worse than being
Speaker 3: trapped with yourself.
Speaker 1: Obviously, a lot of overtones of like Age of Ultra.
Speaker 1: I was watching this and thinking, well, you know, if
Speaker 1: they ever try and adapt to kind of post apocalyptic
Speaker 1: Ultron world, they kind of can't do it now because
Speaker 1: they've they've they've kind of done. This was basically Age
Speaker 1: of Ultron minus Mutants minus Wolverine.
Speaker 3: Yeah you know, I know, dude, I was thinking that
Speaker 3: a lot a nice team, but needs more X Man, Like, yeah.
Speaker 4: Well.
Speaker 1: Could they not? I mean I found myself thinking this,
Speaker 1: like and we as we've been sitting here wondering when
Speaker 1: will they introduce them? When will they introduce them? I
Speaker 1: obviously it feels like what if, as you noted, is
Speaker 1: it's based on mcure, so until something happens at MCU,
Speaker 1: it kind of can't happen. And what if we can't
Speaker 1: get it? What if this scenario based on characters that
Speaker 1: haven't been introduced yet? But like, why not? Why couldn't
Speaker 1: we see?
Speaker 3: Seems like this.
Speaker 1: Could be the world. Yeah, it seems like, yeah, why not?
Speaker 1: Like could it not happen?
Speaker 3: Imagine imagine if it when the Watcher had been one firstival.
Speaker 3: I just need sense. I should have said it when
Speaker 3: we first said the name, but whoa about when? It
Speaker 3: was like when I saw the title and it was
Speaker 3: if the Watcher broke his oath?
Speaker 2: I was like, what if he didn't? That's what the
Speaker 2: what if would actually be? What if he didn't? Because
Speaker 2: he breaks his oath every fucking time. Every Watcher story
Speaker 2: is just him breaking his oath. But if he was
Speaker 2: going around breaking his oath, I was just like, imagine
Speaker 2: if he'd just plucked a wolverine from somewhere, an old
Speaker 2: man logan, you know what people would have lost lost
Speaker 2: their darn minds, and I understand the MCU. Well, the
Speaker 2: thing is right, so I would I was about to say, I.
Speaker 3: Understand that MCU doesn't work like that, and there's five
Speaker 3: ten years of planning and blah blah. But after the
Speaker 3: end of Venom, I'm like, actually, that's just the mcu'
Speaker 3: is messy. Now I'm like Tom Hardy, Venom is in
Speaker 3: the MCU, bring in Wolverine, bringing Storm, bring in whoever else.
Speaker 3: I'm like, it's fine now, everything is everything.
Speaker 1: As you noted, Figy is like the master of neatness.
Speaker 1: He demands like efficiency and kind of like streamlining. So
Speaker 1: they probably wouldn't have it, but it'd be amazing if
Speaker 1: it if it did happen. What I will. I want
Speaker 1: to bring up one kind of how does this work?
Speaker 1: Which is in line with our conversation about like the gems.
Speaker 1: So the initial plan was they're going to use the
Speaker 1: Infinity Crusher, this kind of like grinding device to destroy
Speaker 1: the gems that Ultron has. But then it turns out
Speaker 1: it won't work because the Infinity Crusher is from a
Speaker 1: different universe, different set of gems, doesn't work here. So
Speaker 1: then why do Ultron's gems work at all where he is.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it doesn't the logic behind that, I understand that
Speaker 3: the narrative decision to introduce that easy solution and then
Speaker 3: take it away like that's you you on that gut punch,
Speaker 3: but it doesn't make sense. I guess the idea is
Speaker 3: he has at some point in episode eight he kind
Speaker 3: of mastered once he understood the Watcher was there, he
Speaker 3: mastered the multiverse. So in that way, I suppose it's
Speaker 3: like his own omnipience.
Speaker 1: Like right, and it's like it's a master set of gems.
Speaker 3: His power becomes I got. But then in that way,
Speaker 3: I feel like no gem Crusher would have been able
Speaker 3: to solve it, because that's the gems have almost taken
Speaker 3: on a different role where they are the multiversal gems
Speaker 3: rather than gems from you know, another universe.
Speaker 1: One thing. First of all, I love the I love
Speaker 1: Strangers time saving gambit to like drop all of Marvel
Speaker 1: Zombies on the head of Ultron, But it was really
Speaker 1: about setting up this convernation between zombie Wanda and Ultron
Speaker 1: and then so she blasts him and then there's like
Speaker 1: a moment of recognition but then nothing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it doesn't make any sense, Like we there is
Speaker 3: literally an entire episode in this show, the Marvel Zombies
Speaker 3: episode where we learn that after seeing Wonder Vision and
Speaker 3: how Wonder and Visions love is kind of this twisted
Speaker 3: like they'll do anything for each other. We see that
Speaker 3: in an extreme version in What If, where Vision is
Speaker 3: literally like filating T'Challa and the speed Wander zombie Wonder
Speaker 3: and you're telling me that this zombiefied Wonder the most
Speaker 3: powerful mutant superhero whatever word we're using in the world.
Speaker 3: You're telling me she doesn't see her hunky Infinity Stone
Speaker 3: wielding he does husband he looks.
Speaker 5: Really cool, and also like she would recognize him like that,
Speaker 5: And then Strangers just made the worst decision ever, because
Speaker 5: then you have zombie mutant Wonder who can't control her
Speaker 5: infinite powers and.
Speaker 3: Literal infinite Ultron who has Vision's face and does still
Speaker 3: have the Mindstone and come on, that that to me
Speaker 3: is a that's that's a mistake.
Speaker 1: That bumped me too. I was like, wait a second,
Speaker 1: that's it, Like, what is her reaction here? There? Clearly
Speaker 1: she recognizes him, does he know what the connection is?
Speaker 1: M But it kind of also feels like that was
Speaker 1: such a big bump that we're gonna they have to
Speaker 1: explore that at some point, like that's is that happened
Speaker 1: in the comics if you, if you like, turn a
Speaker 1: page and it's like this recognition between two characters, and
Speaker 1: then you turned it and then we back to like
Speaker 1: some other fight in the a story. M hmm, A year,
Speaker 1: two years, five years later, some point in time, some
Speaker 1: creative team would be, Okay, we have to unpack what
Speaker 1: that is because that was kind of huge.
Speaker 3: I think so too, because also think about it, he
Speaker 3: has the time stone, like there are things that could
Speaker 3: happen here that would and obviously maybe, but Ultron knows everything.
Speaker 3: Ifanoultron knows everything, and he is Vision and Altron together,
Speaker 3: so I feel like that has to be there. And
Speaker 3: I feel like it makes sense that Wanda recognizes him
Speaker 3: because even Wander is so in love with Vision that
Speaker 3: in the comics, even when he loses the thing that
Speaker 3: made her love him, the personality Simon Williams, you know,
Speaker 3: mind print, imprint or whatever is, she still wants white Vision.
Speaker 3: She still wants Vision who is not Vision, you know.
Speaker 3: So I feel like that connection is that Yeah, I
Speaker 3: think if like you said, the fact they add that
Speaker 3: moment of recognition that probably means we're gonna see maybe
Speaker 3: season two will have like King Infinite Ultra on in
Speaker 3: like you know.
Speaker 1: Maybe Queen Zombie.
Speaker 3: Maybe she'll break those two out of the pocket dimension
Speaker 3: to try and re create Infinite Vision. But yeah, that
Speaker 3: was a moment. I was like, Oh, this is trouble.
Speaker 1: These are the things we are thinking about in a
Speaker 1: post whatef world. I'm excited to see what they do
Speaker 1: for season two.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Up next the Omnibus. Welcome to another chapter in the
Speaker 1: Omnibus where lower analysis and understanding come together. This week,
Speaker 1: let's explore the origins and the ongoing cultural fascination with
Speaker 1: Spider Man Symbiete Suit and the introduction of that character
Speaker 1: along with Eddie Brock. Nineteen eighty four is Marvel Superheroes
Speaker 1: Secret Wars ushered in the era of the crossover of
Speaker 1: the twelve issue limited series, which influenced continuity across the company.
Speaker 1: Was the brainchild of then editor in chief Jim Shooter,
Speaker 1: a titanic and widely reviled figure who set an incredibly
Speaker 1: successful course for Marvel Comics from nineteen seventy eight to
Speaker 1: his ouster in nineteen eighty seven to four, reportedly being
Speaker 1: such a gigantic asshole that everyone hated him so much
Speaker 1: they burned him in effigy. Yes, they burned him in effigy.
Speaker 1: That's how much Jim Shooter was hated by his staff.
Speaker 1: Secret Wars told the story of the Beyonder, an immensely
Speaker 1: powerful cosmic entity who transports Earth's superheroes and supervillains to
Speaker 1: a battle world where they fight for the Beyonders. Entertainment,
Speaker 1: Secret Wars was not an inventive or emotionally resonant story.
Speaker 1: It was essentially an excuse to get all of Marvel's
Speaker 1: characters and the same story for the purpose of selling
Speaker 1: Mattel action figures. In other words, it was as good
Speaker 1: as it needed to be to do its job, and
Speaker 1: that job it did very, very well through the roof.
Speaker 1: Artist and writer John Byrne told Sean how in Marvel
Speaker 1: Comics The Untold Story, the financial windfall was so great
Speaker 1: that Marvel and DC, who sales were kind of weak
Speaker 1: at the time, briefly amazingly talked about a licensing deal
Speaker 1: which would allow the House that Stand Built to publish Superman, Batman,
Speaker 1: Wonder Woman, Green Lancer, New Teen Titans Legion of Superheroes,
Speaker 1: the JLA that would have been crazy. Besides making crossover
Speaker 1: events part of the regular cadence of superhero storytelling, Secret
Speaker 1: Wars's main contribution is unquestionably Spider Man's black costume, later
Speaker 1: to be revealed to be a sentient parasitic creature who
Speaker 1: would go on to become, along with the journalist Eddie Brock,
Speaker 1: the villain slash anti hero Venom. Now the Symbiote actually
Speaker 1: has two first appearances. That the alien first hit newstands
Speaker 1: in May nineteen eighty four is The Amazing Spider Man
Speaker 1: Number two fifty two, which told the story of Peter
Speaker 1: Parker's returned to Earth in his new Black suit after
Speaker 1: the events of Secret Wars. But Secret Wars was an
Speaker 1: ongoing event at that time, and so it wasn't until
Speaker 1: months later, in the pages of December nineteen eighty four
Speaker 1: Secret Wars number eight, that the audience learned the story
Speaker 1: of how Peter first obtained his new costume, and that
Speaker 1: is the Symbiote's official first canonical appearance. The rumors are
Speaker 1: true introducing the new Spider Man. Read the cover of
Speaker 1: The Amazing Spider Man number two fifty two, which shows
Speaker 1: Peter in his new black suit with white trim swinging
Speaker 1: through the streets of Manhattan with a teenager under each
Speaker 1: arm that he's rescuing. The issue is a pretty boring
Speaker 1: bottle episode about Peter literally getting back into the swing
Speaker 1: of New York City after his ordeal on Battle World.
Speaker 1: We get a glimpse in these pages to the costume's
Speaker 1: really creepy but kind of cool new abilities, as well
Speaker 1: as various hints to the costume's actual nature. Peter, for instance,
Speaker 1: retrieves his walin and keys from the place he hid
Speaker 1: them in Central Park before he went to Battle World. Quote. Instantly,
Speaker 1: reacting to Spider Man's unspoken command, his costume suddenly opens
Speaker 1: a wide seam to receive his keys and wallet. No
Speaker 1: sooner does he place them within it than it immediately
Speaker 1: reseals itself end quote. Later, after arriving at his apartment,
Speaker 1: the suit morphs into casual wear kind of Steve jobsy
Speaker 1: and turtleneck and black jeans. When Peter wakes in the
Speaker 1: middle of the night thinking about how nice it would
Speaker 1: be to maybe do some late night web slinging, the
Speaker 1: costume SLINKs from its resting place on the chair and
Speaker 1: just flows over his body, immediately suiting him up. Months later,
Speaker 1: in Secret Wars eight, readers get to see how Peter
Speaker 1: and the Suit came to meet Spider Man. In a
Speaker 1: collection of heroes including Hulk, Thor, Monica Rambeau, Captain Marvel,
Speaker 1: Hawkeye and others are storming Doctor Doom's Doom base, and
Speaker 1: in the course of this battle they take out various supervillains,
Speaker 1: including the recently introduced Titania, who is supers basically she's very,
Speaker 1: very strong, and the long running Avengers Foil Ultron. After
Speaker 1: the fight, Peter's costume is just in shreds, is absolutely
Speaker 1: in tatters. He runs into Hulk and Thor and Peter's like, Thor,
Speaker 1: your cape is like brand new? What the hell? And
Speaker 1: Hulk and Thor tell Peter about this machine in the
Speaker 1: Doom Base that produces clothing by reading a person's thoughts.
Speaker 1: Peter finds a machine. He places his head under this
Speaker 1: thing that looks like a lamp. Now. A few issues earlier,
Speaker 1: in Secret Wars six and seven, Julia Carpenter, who is
Speaker 1: that era of Spider Woman, made her debut, and she
Speaker 1: was wearing an all black costume with white detailing very
Speaker 1: similar to the black suit that we're about to see.
Speaker 1: And so Peter, influenced by Spider Woman's fit, is thinking
Speaker 1: about a new costume, and a black globule about the
Speaker 1: size of a billiard ball appears in front of him,
Speaker 1: and the substance immediately covers his body and voila, we
Speaker 1: have the black suit now. The idea for the black
Speaker 1: costume came from a fan, Randy Schuler, back in the
Speaker 1: day in the early eighties, Marvel ran a competition for
Speaker 1: aspiring writers and artists. Being a lifelong Spidy fan with
Speaker 1: delusions of comic grandeur, I took a stab at a
Speaker 1: story idea, Shuller states in a two thousand and seven
Speaker 1: article for Comic Book Resources, Randy's pitch involves a new
Speaker 1: stealth costume, black and color, which would be manufactured by
Speaker 1: Reid Richards out of unstable molecules.
Speaker 4: Now.
Speaker 1: A few months later, in August nineteen eighty two, Jim Shooter,
Speaker 1: the then editor in chief, wrote back, I want to
Speaker 1: buy it. That's his opening. His opening statement is I
Speaker 1: want to buy it. No, Hello, how you doing? Please
Speaker 1: demet you. I want to buy it. Jim Shooter getting
Speaker 1: right to the point we'll pay two hundred and twenty
Speaker 1: dollars enclosed find a work for hire agreement and a voucher.
Speaker 1: That's about six hundred dollars in today's money. Not exactly
Speaker 1: a kingly fucking sum, thanks Jim Shooter, but probably big
Speaker 1: money for a kid who's just you know, pitched Marvel cold.
Speaker 1: The agreement gave Randy the opportunity to try and write
Speaker 1: the script for this story.
Speaker 6: Now.
Speaker 1: Randy ended up submitting a couple of versions of drafts,
Speaker 1: but in the end it just didn't work out. Regardless,
Speaker 1: I had no regrets. As a true blue Spider fan,
Speaker 1: this was a very cool moment in my life. Randy wrote.
Speaker 1: Spider Man's new look, though minimalistic in design, was a
Speaker 1: huge change and changed generations in the making. Spider Man's costume.
Speaker 1: A few tweaks aside, the most notable being the elimination
Speaker 1: of Spidey's like underarm web wings after a couple of
Speaker 1: years had been basically the same since the character's debut
Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty two, and so the reaction to this
Speaker 1: change was incredibly emotional. You've got to be kidding me,
Speaker 1: said Ron Friends, Spider Man's artist at the time. I
Speaker 1: waited all my life since the age of eight to
Speaker 1: draw Spider Man, and now he's got a new suit. Meanwhile,
Speaker 1: Marvel's marketing department didn't like it because they probably not
Speaker 1: unfairly thought it would confuse licensees and hurt spot Sider
Speaker 1: Man's marketability. At the time, Marvel made a lot of
Speaker 1: money putting its characters onto lunchboxes, onto toy cars, on
Speaker 1: to posters, et cetera. And you know, this is in
Speaker 1: the mid eighties early eighties. We don't have the kind
Speaker 1: of media ecosystem that we have today where these characters
Speaker 1: are everywhere and you can find them like at the
Speaker 1: click of a mouse. You know, changing the look of
Speaker 1: an iconic character is no small thing to do. So meanwhile,
Speaker 1: there was also the fan response, and to quote another
Speaker 1: podcast bit, the fans hated it. They hated it, and
Speaker 1: they knew the change was coming. The October nineteen eighty
Speaker 1: three issue of The Comics Journal, a trade magazine kind
Speaker 1: of akin to a you know, comics version of Variety
Speaker 1: or The Hollywood Reporter, contained a blurb about Marvel's upcoming
Speaker 1: secret war storyline in its news watch section, and below
Speaker 1: a full body profile illustration of Spider Man and the
Speaker 1: new costume. The article reads, in part quote some of
Speaker 1: the plan changes include Spider Man trading in his costume
Speaker 1: for a black and red one. Other industry publications around
Speaker 1: the same time carried similar stories. Thus, the cover text
Speaker 1: from Amazing Spider Man two vv two, the Rumors are
Speaker 1: True was a reference to the fact that fans had
Speaker 1: kind of known this was going to happen, and man,
Speaker 1: the fans fucking hated it. They inundated Marvel with hate mail.
Speaker 1: Faced with a furious reaction from inside and outside the company,
Speaker 1: Shooter chickened out. He got cold feet. He wanted to
Speaker 1: pull the costume, like basically as soon as it was
Speaker 1: introduced by you know, we introduced a black costume two
Speaker 1: y two. It's off of Peter by two vv three.
Speaker 1: He didn't want to do it, but in the end,
Speaker 1: Marvel editor Tom DeFalco convinced Shooter to keep the symbiote
Speaker 1: at least until the creature made its canonical debut in
Speaker 1: Secret Wars number eight, because it would just be super
Speaker 1: weird if later we introduced this thing. But fans already
Speaker 1: know that Peter is not going to wear it, So
Speaker 1: after that the plan was okay. After Secret Wars eight,
Speaker 1: we just get rid of it at the earliest convenience. Now,
Speaker 1: over the next several issues of Amazing Spider Man, after
Speaker 1: the introduction of the symbiote, something weird happens. Fans learned
Speaker 1: that the new costume was in fact a living creature,
Speaker 1: a parasitic alien symbiote. They learned that at night, as
Speaker 1: Peter slept, the creature would take his body out for
Speaker 1: test drives swinging over the rooftops. Peter in the daytime
Speaker 1: is becoming progressively more exhausted. He's suffering from nightmares in
Speaker 1: which his old suit is fighting his Black Suit over
Speaker 1: control of him. And so an Amazing Spider Man two
Speaker 1: fifty eight read riches of the Fantastic Four uses a
Speaker 1: sonic blaster to cleave the symbiote off of Peter. Peter
Speaker 1: leaves the Baxter billing like in a Fantastic Four uniform
Speaker 1: of a brown paper bag over his head, and Reid
Speaker 1: keeps the symbiote for further study. And there we have
Speaker 1: it right, The Jim Shooter has accomplished the skull. The
Speaker 1: Black Suit is off of Peter. By an Amazing Spider
Speaker 1: Man two fifty nine, Peter is back in his original
Speaker 1: blue and red costume, with the words the original is
Speaker 1: back on the cover. But the weird thing about those
Speaker 1: issues was, over the course of them, fans fell in
Speaker 1: love with the Black Suit. They loved it, and they
Speaker 1: could tell because sales were going up. Sales of Amazing
Speaker 1: Spider Man were just climbing and climbing and climbing. Additionally,
Speaker 1: the secondary market was also popping with people looking to
Speaker 1: collect that first appearance of the Black Suit. Now, over
Speaker 1: the course of the nineteen seventies, in pop culture, anti
Speaker 1: heroes and films like Dirty Harry, French Connection, Taxi Driver,
Speaker 1: Death Wish, Dog Day Afternoon, The Godfather Won into First
Speaker 1: Blood from the eighties in which violent protagonists operate in
Speaker 1: these kind of like moral shades of gray, were becoming
Speaker 1: increasingly popular. Meanwhile, Marvel Comics was reaching its third decade
Speaker 1: of operation as its modern incarnation like post timely incarnation,
Speaker 1: which we would date to the introduction of the Fantastic
Speaker 1: Four essentially, and so its fan base was getting older
Speaker 1: and their chases were maturing as well, and that was
Speaker 1: reflected in the work of Frank Miller, his kind of
Speaker 1: like noirish work with daredevil, Peter David's Incredible Hulk stories
Speaker 1: in which the Hulk reverts to his gray form and
Speaker 1: becomes this like Vegas area mobster known as Joe fix It.
Speaker 1: Also the skyrocketing popularity of Wolverine, who just like literally
Speaker 1: cuts people up with his claws, and the increasing popularity
Speaker 1: of Frank Castle, the murderous vigilante known as the Punisher.
Speaker 1: All of these things reflected that cultural shift. The Comics
Speaker 1: Code Authority, an industry group created in nineteen fifty four
Speaker 1: to avoid governmental regulation by ensuring comics weren't overly violent, sexual,
Speaker 1: or immoral, was beginning to lose its grip, at least
Speaker 1: on the violent aspect of that kind of three legged
Speaker 1: stool now, because you know, at the time, Shooter was
Speaker 1: enforcing a strict no gaze policy, though a few creative stories,
Speaker 1: particularly Captain America at number two sixty eight by J. M.
Speaker 1: Dematis and Mike Zech, managed to get through. Now, Peter
Speaker 1: Parker was never going to be an anti hero, right,
Speaker 1: He was never going to decapitate people. He was never
Speaker 1: going to gun down foes and throw them off the
Speaker 1: top of buildings. But wrapping him in all blacks certainly
Speaker 1: made him look more of a badass, and so the
Speaker 1: suit had to be saved. In February nineteen eighty five,
Speaker 1: is Peter Parker The Spectacular spider Man. Spider Man's other
Speaker 1: monthly ongoing series, black Cat, Peter's off again, on again
Speaker 1: love interest, knits him another costume that looks just like
Speaker 1: the Black Suit. How did he manage to escape from
Speaker 1: Fantastic four headquarters? Spider Man says, silly, this isn't your
Speaker 1: real alien costume. Black Cat says to him, this is
Speaker 1: just an ordinarily everyday cloth version of it. I sewed
Speaker 1: it myself. It's so much sexier than your old red
Speaker 1: and blue long John's. Now. Spider Man would spend the
Speaker 1: next few years switching from his red suit to his
Speaker 1: black suit, going back and forth. Now. The first appearance
Speaker 1: of the Symbiote and Eddie Bracas Venom came in nineteen
Speaker 1: eighty eights The Amazing Spider Man Number three hundred writer
Speaker 1: David mclaney, Who's Demon in a Bottle storyline Forever Altered
Speaker 1: Tony Stark originally intended Venom to be a woman who
Speaker 1: blames Spider Man for the deaths of her husband and baby.
Speaker 1: Mclaney included teasers in nineteen eighty Web of Spider Man
Speaker 1: eighteen and nineteen eighty seven's Web spider Man Num. Twenty four,
Speaker 1: the third ongoing Spider Man title of the eighties that
Speaker 1: replaced Marvel's Team Up title, and that was supposed to
Speaker 1: set up the eventual reveal of this female venom. A
Speaker 1: hand pushes Peter in front of the subway train and
Speaker 1: it doesn't trigger his spider sense, which I thought was key.
Speaker 1: Mclaney told Comic Crusaders dot Com in twenty seventeen editor
Speaker 1: Jim Salakrap want to do something special for issue three
Speaker 1: hundred of Amazing, So I said, Okay, I've got this character.
Speaker 1: He liked the idea, but he didn't think readers would
Speaker 1: accept a woman standing toe with Spider Man. Folks. It
Speaker 1: was nineteen eighty eight. I digress, continuing the quote. So
Speaker 1: I came up with the Eddie Brock character and his
Speaker 1: background and motivation, and that became Venom. So Eddie Brock,
Speaker 1: as we meet him in Amazing Spider Man three hundred,
Speaker 1: is a workout freak and a former Terrible journalist. Eddie
Speaker 1: describes himself as this is my favorite bit of this comic.
Speaker 1: He describes himself as solid at journalism quote solid, as
Speaker 1: if he was talking about like his acumen at playing pool,
Speaker 1: not like a vital mechanism of a free society anyway.
Speaker 1: Eddie's last story for The Daily Globe was a multi
Speaker 1: part interview with a mentally ill man named Emil Greg.
Speaker 1: Mister Greg believes himself to be the psychopathic murderer of
Speaker 1: the Senator, and Brock makes the pretty solid decision to
Speaker 1: just like run with this without like apparently checking it out,
Speaker 1: protecting mister Greg's identity through my rights under the First Amendment.
Speaker 1: I told his story incisively and compassionately, says Brock during
Speaker 1: his classic gotam right where I want him villain monologue. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: you know, people I think fairly thought it was pretty
Speaker 1: fucked up of Eddie Brock in the Daily Globe to
Speaker 1: give a platform to a serial killer while also protecting
Speaker 1: his identity. The police insisted that I reveal my source
Speaker 1: so that they could stop the murders. Under the advice
Speaker 1: of counsel, I finally wrote my masterpiece, announcing Greg is
Speaker 1: the sinator, says Eddie Brock, under the advice of council. Oh, Eddie,
Speaker 1: you idiot. Less than two hours later, as Eddie tells
Speaker 1: the story, the masterpiece was undone because Peter Parker did
Speaker 1: some basic factchecking, was like, hey, that's not the Siniator,
Speaker 1: that's just like a mentally ill gentleman. The Globe fired Brock.
Speaker 1: Good what about Brock's editor? No word on that, and
Speaker 1: he was forced to scrape out a living writing quote
Speaker 1: venomous celebrity exposs and I was kidnapped by Alien's drivel.
Speaker 1: Sounds like a good gig, honestly. He took all the
Speaker 1: money he had, moved to the Bronx, which in nineteen
Speaker 1: eighties pop culture communicated as a not very complex code
Speaker 1: for Eddie. Moved to a bad neighborhood. He turned his
Speaker 1: whole apartment into a gym, lifted weights all the time,
Speaker 1: and dreamed of killing Spider Man as he's like doing curls. Eventually,
Speaker 1: unable to cope, he decides to end his life. He
Speaker 1: goes to a church, and there the Symbiote finds him,
Speaker 1: drawn by he and Brock's shared hatred of Spider Man,
Speaker 1: and venom is born. The Amazing Spider Man number three
Speaker 1: hundred was artist Todd McFarlane's third issue on the title,
Speaker 1: and it's kind of impossible to separate the popularity of
Speaker 1: the symbiote venom, and it's very sorry for this spawn
Speaker 1: from the rocket ship ascendancy of Todd McFarlane as an
Speaker 1: artist and creator the artists work in Amazing Spider Man
Speaker 1: hit comics like a jolt of electricity. He along with Robleifeld,
Speaker 1: were just like one of the most exciting young artists
Speaker 1: working at the time, and his spidy leaped off the page.
Speaker 1: Legs splayed, Spider like, swinging from like intricately detailed webs,
Speaker 1: less lauded, but just as important as the dynamic character
Speaker 1: poses with McFarlane's contemporary touch on Peter and the people
Speaker 1: in Amazing Spider Man, Peter, as McFarlane rendered him, had
Speaker 1: a kind of like shaggy mullet, wore leather jacket and jeans.
Speaker 1: Marriage Jane had this kind of like layered teased up hair,
Speaker 1: big shouldered tunics, slouchy belt looks. They looked like people
Speaker 1: who knew that they were in the year nineteen eighty eight,
Speaker 1: whereas under the touch of previous artists, you know, Spider
Speaker 1: Man and Peter Parker looked like he literally was just
Speaker 1: like time traveled from nineteen sixty three, McFarlane's Venom was
Speaker 1: a muscle bound figure with horror elements, gaping mouth, lined
Speaker 1: with these shark like teeth, thick lapping tongue that gave
Speaker 1: the character a terrifying presence, which along with that muscle
Speaker 1: bound look which the eighties going into the mid nineties
Speaker 1: was the period of Schwarzenegger and Jean Claude van Dam
Speaker 1: and Sylvester Stallone, these kind of like muscle bound action figures,
Speaker 1: and so this look with the horror elements was perfect
Speaker 1: for an anti hero. McFarlane, like Ron friends before him,
Speaker 1: was not a fan of the black costume. Talking to
Speaker 1: the YouTube channel Comic Tom one oh one in March
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, McFarland described his thinking of the symbiote
Speaker 1: as an artist in his twenties as it's not cool man.
Speaker 1: McFarlin says he told Shooter he would only come on
Speaker 1: Amazing Spider Man if Spidey got to go back to
Speaker 1: the red and blue costume. So Venom then was a
Speaker 1: kind of compromise, a way to keep the increasingly popular
Speaker 1: black suit in the mix quote David mclady comes up
Speaker 1: with a way to basically use the costume another way
Speaker 1: they needed a visual. I created the visual. I've told
Speaker 1: people Issue three hundred isn't the first appearance of Venom.
Speaker 1: To me, Issue three hundred is the how do we
Speaker 1: get that damn black costume off of Peter Parker issue
Speaker 1: and that he did. Indeed, Welcome to the Hive Mind,
Speaker 1: where we dive deeper into specific topics with the help
Speaker 1: of guest panelists joining us today X Ray Vision is
Speaker 1: please to welcome A. C. Bradley, head writer of Marvels
Speaker 1: What If N series director Brian Andrews. Welcome to the show. Hello,
Speaker 1: congratulations on a super fun season with a show like
Speaker 1: What If based on you know, a comic book series
Speaker 1: that was like just unbounded by anything but imagination. What
Speaker 1: what kind of rules did you put on yourselves as
Speaker 1: you were as you were accepting pitches or coming up
Speaker 1: with story or developing story? Are the rules?
Speaker 6: Well? Yeah? Funny? Like well, early on it we just
Speaker 6: the one quote unquote rule was it was all spinning
Speaker 6: off the Marvel cinematic universe. It wasn't going to be
Speaker 6: based on the comics or any of that type of stuff,
Speaker 6: because you know, we wanted to do what people were
Speaker 6: familiar with. It just came from Kevin and Brad. They
Speaker 6: just knew it's just like no, no, no, we don't need
Speaker 6: only the stuff that was in the movies, and we
Speaker 6: can't introduce anyone that hasn't been introduced in the movie.
Speaker 6: So that was kind of like quote unquote a rule.
Speaker 6: Other than that, it just whatever was excited us and
Speaker 6: the you know, when we got together to come up
Speaker 6: with ideas, it was just fringing open. We're just nerding
Speaker 6: out coming up with all the crazy, but but with
Speaker 6: not get with those guardrails.
Speaker 4: For me, and when I went into pitch for the job,
Speaker 4: I actually created a small document of like, here's the
Speaker 4: roles of the show, and there was like I think
Speaker 4: two three big ones. One was we can't let every
Speaker 4: episode turn into a team up that's going to be
Speaker 4: our finale. We're going to keep these characters focused, keep
Speaker 4: them close on one or two characters, hopefully unusual combinations.
Speaker 4: The second role flowing from that was we need to
Speaker 4: say true to who these characters are. We've now grown up,
Speaker 4: grown up with them, either from the comics or from
Speaker 4: watching the movies. If we're going to do an episode
Speaker 4: where thor destroys the planet. It needs to make sense
Speaker 4: with who he is as a character, and in the NCU,
Speaker 4: Thor has already been through a gauntlet of tragedy and pain,
Speaker 4: and at the end of it, he's still a very
Speaker 4: good man. He's still worthy. So I was like, I'm
Speaker 4: not going to make it that he's like in a
Speaker 4: bad mood and he comes down to destroy Paris. He's
Speaker 4: a very mood and does it by accident, because that
Speaker 4: I can see. I can see a world where Thor, Yeah,
Speaker 4: I just wants to have a good time. And I
Speaker 4: believe the third rule was the Watcher is the audience.
Speaker 4: So every time we're talking about the Watcher, it's him
Speaker 4: growing to love these characters, love these stories, and having
Speaker 4: them affect him over the course of nine to ten episodes.
Speaker 4: So it's kind of just kind of like putting guardrails
Speaker 4: up for ourselves, the storytellers, to make sure that, like Fury,
Speaker 4: we keep our eye in the big picture.
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you have a craziest pitch that didn't get
Speaker 1: made that you could tell us without burning a future idea?
Speaker 4: Well, everyone seems to love that. President Rogers cameo in
Speaker 4: episode eight and there was very briefly, me and Matt
Speaker 4: Chauncey are huge Storkin fans, and we did spend a
Speaker 4: lunch eating poke bowls in the Disney cafeteria because we
Speaker 4: never missed Poke Bowl Day and talking about what about
Speaker 4: a West Wing Marvel mashup and what would the Rogers
Speaker 4: administration look like? But doesn't really lend itself to a
Speaker 4: lot of action. It's a very talky, idealistic episodes. But
Speaker 4: if anyone out there every wants to create a superhero
Speaker 4: in the West Wing show, we've got We've got.
Speaker 6: Notes Yilia No, I think there's probably way they get
Speaker 6: some action in there. It's a fun idea, it's great
Speaker 6: and just being able to see more of that and
Speaker 6: seeing who has his cabinet, I mean it could be
Speaker 6: could Yeah, it could be fun. It's a fun idea.
Speaker 1: Obviously, an important component of this series is the animation,
Speaker 1: the animation style. How did you arrive at at the
Speaker 1: style that the series is presented and the look and
Speaker 1: feel of it.
Speaker 6: Kind of there was early talks that of possibly doing
Speaker 6: every single episode a completely different style, but when Brad
Speaker 6: and I were first meeting about it, but we kind
Speaker 6: of shot that down relatively quickly, because you know, it
Speaker 6: can get pricing and expensive to produce. But also we're
Speaker 6: riffing off the cinematic universe, and it doesn't make sense
Speaker 6: to have everything designed wacky different for each episode if
Speaker 6: it's trying to be like you know what I mean,
Speaker 6: because it's supposed to be Canon's part of the cent
Speaker 6: in connected with Cinematic Rouver. So it's like, oh, here
Speaker 6: are these stories. They are simply being told to you
Speaker 6: in this style. Is so so therefore it's the equivalent
Speaker 6: of the live action so and so Therefore I wanted
Speaker 6: to shoot it as if we were shooting at live action.
Speaker 6: I wanted to play with lensing, depth of field, all
Speaker 6: that stuff, a because I love it, but also be
Speaker 6: because I want to see more of that inanimation. And
Speaker 6: then for the art style, I zeroed in on J. C.
Speaker 6: Lindecker and some of the illustrators of you know, the
Speaker 6: early twentieth century because I love that look. I love
Speaker 6: jaz Linebecker work, and Hollywood's been chasing it for for like,
Speaker 6: you know, one hundred years, you know, with various levels
Speaker 6: of success. You know, and Ryan Menerding who designs like
Speaker 6: the Marvel Universe and he's just, you know, a god.
Speaker 6: He also loves Jace Lindecker to death and so does
Speaker 6: like our productions on are Paul is saying, he's also
Speaker 6: amazing and so so the characters were going to be
Speaker 6: Jace Lindecker, but then we needed a background art style
Speaker 6: to have them blend, and so we still pulled from
Speaker 6: the American illustrats, but we had to get a little
Speaker 6: bit more graphic just to map some of the line
Speaker 6: work that we're into. So it's kind of like a
Speaker 6: confluence of a couple of different things and then with
Speaker 6: Paul and Ryan working together able to get something that
Speaker 6: kind of worked that we wanted to, but it was Bailey.
Speaker 6: It was just me wanting to I want to see
Speaker 6: it this way and showing it to the trio and
Speaker 6: basically put up the first image of Jason Lindecker stuff
Speaker 6: and Kevin was like, if it looks like this, I mean,
Speaker 6: we're basically done. In the meeting, We're good. We're good,
Speaker 6: you know. So then the rest of those wassible nerding
Speaker 6: out about the art. He was he was in full
Speaker 6: full steam.
Speaker 1: So you mentioned the anthology aspect, How soon a seed
Speaker 1: did you? Did you all hit on there being a
Speaker 1: team up kind of framework of this, and.
Speaker 4: I think I lied a lot in some of my
Speaker 4: interviews earlier in the season. So pretty much in day
Speaker 4: two we knew we wanted to do a team up.
Speaker 4: I wanted to do a team up on my original pitch.
Speaker 4: It came a different way, but you know, this is
Speaker 4: the fun of storytelling is that you find different ways
Speaker 4: to tell stories. And we knew that we wanted the
Speaker 4: Watcher to break his oath, just like in the com books,
Speaker 4: he says no, no, no, no no, and then he's like, oh,
Speaker 4: I can't possibly have that second piece of cake.
Speaker 3: I can't, I can't all let's go.
Speaker 4: Straight to my hips give it to me. So we
Speaker 4: just had to find a villain worthy of the Watcher
Speaker 4: and I love Ultron and Age of Ultron was great,
Speaker 4: but we felt like there was more we could do
Speaker 4: with him, and the comic books, he's such a much
Speaker 4: more bitter presence. And luckily because Phase four has now
Speaker 4: hit Ultron mis Anfionity Gauntlet that's a pretty horrific and
Speaker 4: devastating force to be reckoned with, and it gave us
Speaker 4: a reason for the Watcher to break his oath as
Speaker 4: we were writing the episodes, Captain Carter was always a favorite.
Speaker 4: Star Lord T'Challa definitely wanted to revisit doctor Strange in
Speaker 4: a new and unusual way that didn't so much redeem him,
Speaker 4: but showed again another side of him in the lessons
Speaker 4: he learned in his story. We knew we want to
Speaker 4: use Killmonger, but again, he's not the typical hero or villain.
Speaker 4: How would he fit into the Watcher's plan. So it
Speaker 4: was a mixture of Okay, who has been our favorites
Speaker 4: of these journey of creating into the show, and also
Speaker 4: basically Bergen was on me to take a step back
Speaker 4: and figure out what would the Watcher's plan be and
Speaker 4: how would these different elements come into play. And luckily,
Speaker 4: I mean, the show has been freaking amazing. I think
Speaker 4: I shouldn't probably say that about my own shop, but
Speaker 4: it's been so much fun. And I think Brian agrees
Speaker 4: to play with these characters like zombie Wanda within the
Speaker 4: scripts and she was cool, but when you saw her
Speaker 4: on boards and then when you saw her and finished animation,
Speaker 4: she kind of blew your mind. I was like, Okay,
Speaker 4: she has to come back. She's the teen Rex in
Speaker 4: Jurassic Park. She needs to come back in the finale,
Speaker 4: and we got to do her some justice. So it
Speaker 4: was kind of like, you know, just taking your cherry,
Speaker 4: picking your favorite parts and playing with the toys. Again.
Speaker 1: You mentioned zombie Wanda. That's the moment of recognition that
Speaker 1: she has when she's facing off with Ultron seemed very weighty.
Speaker 1: Are there moments like that that are gonna that we're
Speaker 1: going to revisit in a season two what if? Or
Speaker 1: just later down the line?
Speaker 6: She who knows? I think, you know, since the stuff
Speaker 6: exists now, who knows? Like if we're so fortunate to
Speaker 6: do many many episodes or many many seasons, there could
Speaker 6: be an opportunity where there's like a what if off
Speaker 6: of what if? Who knows? You know what I mean,
Speaker 6: Like I I it's too early to tell. But right
Speaker 6: now it's just the Skuy's disguise the limit, So who knows?
Speaker 6: You know? It could be cool. I think, you know,
Speaker 6: because of the tag at the end of the finale,
Speaker 6: you know, one could wager that we might see someone again.
Speaker 4: Maybe the beauty of the Marvel universe is that it
Speaker 4: keeps expanding. Yeah, and so there's always new characters new
Speaker 4: stories to tell in season two. I mean, as much
Speaker 4: as I love Party Thor I think I want to
Speaker 4: play in Shang Shei for a while. Come on, Love, like,
Speaker 4: that's an amazing role. Let's go play there.
Speaker 1: I love the Party Thor episode as a as a
Speaker 1: lifelong comics fan, especially Marvel Comics. These heroes have been
Speaker 1: through so much, so I always loved the bottle issues
Speaker 1: where it's like the Avengers just hanging out at a
Speaker 1: barbecue or you know, you know, playing baseball or something
Speaker 1: like that. Is there a particular favorite moment or episode
Speaker 1: or even just seeing that you have from the series.
Speaker 4: I have a special love for Darcy Lewis, so early
Speaker 4: on in figuring out Party Thor, we realized that and
Speaker 4: me with a beer in me and Darcy Lewis are
Speaker 4: kind of the same, making the dirty joke being silly.
Speaker 4: So when it came to doing an animation, we'll do
Speaker 4: temp voices. We'll do scratch voices before the actual like
Speaker 4: Cat Stennings or Paul Bettany or Chris Sundsworth come in
Speaker 4: just to test out lines and jokes against the storyboard.
Speaker 4: I had a couple of drinks with the editors and
Speaker 4: some of the production crew at lunch and recorded the
Speaker 4: original Darcy Scratch, which was so much fun and actually
Speaker 4: a lot of her lines were ad libs by me
Speaker 4: and the crew while hanging out in the edit bay
Speaker 4: at four o'clock on a Friday afternoon and breaking Disney
Speaker 4: rules of the alcohol. Ryan, you weren't there, and you
Speaker 4: were very well. You were very much missed because we
Speaker 4: cracked up in the whiskey.
Speaker 6: I know, I totally missed out. I'm so sorry.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was a kind of I didn't. I'm not
Speaker 4: very good actress, so it was kind of goading from
Speaker 4: the editors, who are very good friends of mine. And
Speaker 4: then I love Howard the Duck.
Speaker 1: Yes, who doesn't.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's so hilarious because Ashley did such a great
Speaker 6: job with it too. And I really think that, you know,
Speaker 6: Cat Dennings and or Darcy Lewis is like Ashley's spirit
Speaker 6: animal when it came time when it came time to
Speaker 6: record Cat Dnnings, who's Who's just a gem. She's a
Speaker 6: magical human being and so sweet and adorable and really funny.
Speaker 6: She loved the material, loved all the stuff, and she
Speaker 6: did such a great job at it. But what's amazing.
Speaker 6: Is like some of her choices as she was delivering
Speaker 6: the lines actually were getting very very close to what
Speaker 6: Ashley had done. And there was actually two instances where
Speaker 6: I actually directed Kat without letting her know. I directed
Speaker 6: her in a way to basically get the delivery the
Speaker 6: way that Ashley had done it. Because actually I kind
Speaker 6: of really loved there was two spots in particular that
Speaker 6: I thought she nailed so perfectly the time the comedic
Speaker 6: timing was just was it was exactly what it needed
Speaker 6: to be and there was no need to change it.
Speaker 6: So and she gave me option and the cat gave
Speaker 6: me all these options. I'm like thinking to myself, it's
Speaker 6: still not as funny as in this one instant. So
Speaker 6: in this one instance, so I just I kind of
Speaker 6: gave her a little note and she's like, oh yeah,
Speaker 6: I gret to dip and then shed it and she
Speaker 6: hit it exactly Ashley had done it, and I was
Speaker 6: just like I was laughing. But no. But but Cat's
Speaker 6: great and Ashley's she she writes so well for all
Speaker 6: the characters as a matter who it is, man, woman's child,
Speaker 6: doesn't matter. She she captured the voice beautifully well. But
Speaker 6: for specific quickly. It's like it's it's it's it's linked
Speaker 6: cosmically in some way. I can't explain.
Speaker 4: It's'm can well you you got to hit her record.
Speaker 4: I was on them as Marvel set. I think I missed.
Speaker 4: I missed her record. So we got created off there.
Speaker 4: Hopefully you guys didn't crack open the whiskey.
Speaker 6: No no, because that was like super official work, so
Speaker 6: we're not allowed. Unfortunately, even though I magic fied my game.
Speaker 1: I don't know for any have a favorite moment scene.
Speaker 6: There's too many. It's like there's so much good stuff.
Speaker 6: It's like every episode has something that's fantastic, and then
Speaker 6: when I see the audience reaction to those things that
Speaker 6: we also enjoyed and just like, awesome, we did our job.
Speaker 6: People are loving that thing. It's but I think there's
Speaker 6: a ton But but because of the nature of the
Speaker 6: fact that we, you know, chow Wick passd just way
Speaker 6: too soon, the fact that we were able to actually
Speaker 6: be in a room with him and work with him
Speaker 6: and just enjoy him as a person, even for just
Speaker 6: a work environment moment, just doing that craft and getting
Speaker 6: him to laugh about stuff. There are some things that
Speaker 6: are not in the star warts til episode that I
Speaker 6: wish we could have addition, It wasn't any time, but
Speaker 6: he was riffed on so much stuff in the bar,
Speaker 6: like the bit when Drags is supposed to take photo.
Speaker 6: He was like withing on stuff about like he's like,
Speaker 6: I don't know if I want my photo, was taking
Speaker 6: in this body, you know, like it's just like who's
Speaker 6: gonna see this? As if he's like got some secret
Speaker 6: exciting like you know, like he's just having some fun
Speaker 6: with it. And then there was a thing where like
Speaker 6: how does starlot to try to laugh? Like what does
Speaker 6: he laugh? We needed some laughter and scratch and he's
Speaker 6: used this very south as a specific South African laugh
Speaker 6: that had a lot of those like glottles, clicks and
Speaker 6: stops and stuff like. But he was just doing it,
Speaker 6: and he's just like, yeah, he's just creating and doing
Speaker 6: stuff that we didn't get to see Black Panther do.
Speaker 6: But here's Black Panther basically doing these things. And but
Speaker 6: the audience isn't gonna a chance to see those things.
Speaker 6: You know, we were hoping he was gonna We're gonna
Speaker 6: do a spin off and he was gonna have his
Speaker 6: own show. With that character and that those people we
Speaker 6: never got it, but but that that was pretty spe
Speaker 6: to think able to share some time with Chaw which
Speaker 6: we had no idea it was his last, you know
Speaker 6: that we're going to not see him again.
Speaker 1: You know, as a as a fan, it was it
Speaker 1: was unexpected and certainly really emotional to hear his voice
Speaker 1: in that moment to be and you know, yeah, you
Speaker 1: really felt it, like as a fan you felt it.
Speaker 6: Yeah, he did an amazing, amazing job.
Speaker 1: How how how long does it take to turn one
Speaker 1: of these? Just like from a production sense, like there's
Speaker 1: so much It seems like there's so much involved in it,
Speaker 1: but also some of the stuff was quite timely, some
Speaker 1: of the references, et cetera, Like, so, how how how
Speaker 1: quickly can you turn an episode of these around?
Speaker 6: Not quickly in the ocean. It's not a nimble little
Speaker 6: speedboat like like.
Speaker 1: South Park right right and not South Park.
Speaker 6: Around the week and they're at it, but it's far
Speaker 6: longer than that. It takes a while.
Speaker 4: We're about six months of production in house, between writing, storyboards, editing,
Speaker 4: and temp with them, that's the temp voices, and then
Speaker 4: once everything feels like it's lashed like this is the show.
Speaker 4: We bring in the marble actors, We had the designers
Speaker 4: who are like already working hard and like figuring out
Speaker 4: the way it's going to look, and then it's almost's say,
Speaker 4: about a year to fourteen months bring to actually animate
Speaker 4: show something like that.
Speaker 6: When you especially when you take into conseration like you know,
Speaker 6: sound and post and all this stuff at the end,
Speaker 6: and you know, it takes it takes a little bit
Speaker 6: of a chunk of time.
Speaker 4: I wrote Captain Carter two weeks before Christmas twenty eighteen.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, yeah, that was the Holy cow.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was looking at the draft the other day.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and in the early stages is a little extra
Speaker 6: time because no one's done it before, like the vendors.
Speaker 6: So but now that the machine is like up and running,
Speaker 6: it still takes time, but hopefully won't take like that
Speaker 6: that same amount of time. There's a certain degree of
Speaker 6: brevity now that now that some of that figuring out
Speaker 6: how it gets done doesn't have to be figured out.
Speaker 6: But yeah, it takes a little while, but you know,
Speaker 6: hopefully it shows on screen. You know, there's a level
Speaker 6: of quality that we're shooting for that hopefully people appreciate.
Speaker 1: I think they do a couple of quick things. You
Speaker 1: mentioned the influence of JAC Lindecker. How did you marry
Speaker 1: some of the or decide upon some of the kind
Speaker 1: of the comic book aesthetics that you married to this,
Speaker 1: for instance, the watchers in between realm or from which
Speaker 1: he can do all the universes, stuff like that.
Speaker 4: Of the observatory plane. Yeah, well you need a place
Speaker 4: to hang out and like you know, take off his shoes.
Speaker 6: Yeah, totally. No, I mean the characters having a J. C.
Speaker 6: Lindecker influence, but Jac Linderer didn't necessarily do as many
Speaker 6: backgrounds all that type of stuff. So that that's why
Speaker 6: Paul Saying was able to then work and and try
Speaker 6: to create like this look for the environments that these
Speaker 6: characters being. That seems to meld. And so we borrow
Speaker 6: also from the comics and the fact that yeah, you know,
Speaker 6: we read them when we were younger, and like the
Speaker 6: watcher kind of watching in the distance, all that type
Speaker 6: of stuff. Those are all images, Those are all things
Speaker 6: that we needed to have.
Speaker 1: Kirby Crackle, Yeah, Kirby Crackle was the little circles was
Speaker 1: quite notable.
Speaker 6: Like those are those are things that comics that exist
Speaker 6: and like we have to see those, you know, so
Speaker 6: it's whether or not they look like Jason Landecker is
Speaker 6: a design start that that has no bearing on whether
Speaker 6: or not we want to use those visual motifs to write.
Speaker 6: You could just bring those together like like you know,
Speaker 6: like Reese's Peanut, butter Cup of Us and e Xacolate.
Speaker 1: And then finally a c Legally, what is the legal
Speaker 1: status of the marriage between Howard the Duck and Darcy?
Speaker 1: Like is that do we have to get that? An old?
Speaker 1: Is that finding?
Speaker 4: Well, look, everything what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.
Speaker 4: So as long as they're in Vegas, I think they're
Speaker 4: definitely married. Outside of Vegas, I don't know. Uh, I
Speaker 4: don't know how Darcy the Duck is going to do
Speaker 4: long term relationship. I like to think Howard has his
Speaker 4: ship together, but who knows. Maybe he does, maybe he's
Speaker 4: ready to grow up.
Speaker 1: Brian Ace, thank you so much, thank you, thank you,
Speaker 1: and congratulations on a really fun series.
Speaker 6: Thanks thanks so us, thank you glad you liked it.
Speaker 1: That's all for Hive Mind. Up next to the endgame.
Speaker 1: We are in the end game now, and it's time
Speaker 1: for Rosie and I to play face off, in which
Speaker 1: we pick a character from another franchise, series, or universe
Speaker 1: that we think could defeat a particular character, in this case,
Speaker 1: Infinite Ultron from season one of What If, So, Rosie,
Speaker 1: what character from another union could be any other story
Speaker 1: could stand toe to toe and potentially defeat Infinite Ultron.
Speaker 1: Could it be Gandalf? Could it be Denarius on Larry On?
Speaker 1: No way? Could it be Neo in the computer or
Speaker 1: outside of the computer. Okay, we can unpack that later.
Speaker 1: Could it be or it could be Darth Vader, or
Speaker 1: could be dark Side, et cetera. Who do you think
Speaker 1: it could be? We were just talking in the pre
Speaker 1: pro that, yeah, dark Side. If dark Side has like
Speaker 1: two years to get it together.
Speaker 3: M maybe if dark Side's been planning since before Earth
Speaker 3: came about and he's trying, he's like, you know, with
Speaker 3: Granny Goodness or whatever. Maybe maybe he's.
Speaker 1: Assembling like his his like army of children and super
Speaker 1: villains and like.
Speaker 3: Some reason. But it would take by fifteen years he did,
Speaker 3: it would be Poultrons already in a pocket dimension or whatever.
Speaker 3: So I think Neo is actually such a slick answer
Speaker 3: because we know how important the computer is. But my
Speaker 3: my answer is going for like a Battle of the
Speaker 3: Witch type thing. Like Ultron has always been a character
Speaker 3: who's obsessed with knowledge, obsessed with destroying humans, obsessed with
Speaker 3: kind of like finding out how things work and then
Speaker 3: using that to kind of dismantle stuff. So my character
Speaker 3: that I'm gonna pick would be Pinhead from hell Raiser.
Speaker 3: One because I love the whole I love the whole
Speaker 3: Hell Raiser franchise. And two because I think the puzzle box.
Speaker 3: I think, if you get if somebody just appeared to
Speaker 3: Infinite Ultron and was like, are these pesky humans annoying you,
Speaker 3: try this puzzle box. You know, if you open it,
Speaker 3: you can unleash Hell on all these multiple universes, and
Speaker 3: then he would be, you know, trapped to the center bites,
Speaker 3: potentially end up in the hole, or just get like
Speaker 3: torn apart by cool hooks or something. I think, I
Speaker 3: think you gotta go out of the box to beat him,
Speaker 3: because within the world of the MCU, he's almost he's
Speaker 3: almost too overpowered. So I think if you're going outside,
Speaker 3: you got to go really outside. So yeah, I'm picking Pinhead.
Speaker 3: Doug Bradley Pinhead only.
Speaker 1: I love this. Neil would be good any kind of
Speaker 1: like computer e AI slash virusy like Neo is you know,
Speaker 1: computer Jesus, it brought down the machine world. I certainly
Speaker 1: think he's capable of doing it. I think probably a
Speaker 1: smarter answer would be like corrupt agent Smith to just
Speaker 1: kind of like Overwhelmtron's like synapses that said, you probably
Speaker 1: have another problem then, because then you have Agent Smith
Speaker 1: in charge of all infinite Agent Smith. You need to
Speaker 1: lock them in a pocket mansion. I'm gonna go with
Speaker 1: you need to keep Ultron. Whether or not you could
Speaker 1: defeat him, what you need to do is keep him
Speaker 1: occupied for a long, long long time. So I'm gonna
Speaker 1: go with an amalgamation of characters. I'm gonna go with
Speaker 1: uh death from the Ingmar Bergman movie that plays chess
Speaker 1: with the night Right, but an amalgam of that death
Speaker 1: with the death from Bill. It's head's bag his journey right,
Speaker 1: and so that death would just constantly be like, Okay,
Speaker 1: let's do fidget spinners, Okay, let's do bottle flipping, let's
Speaker 1: let's play bass, and so like it should just be
Speaker 1: like constant, constant, constant, constant challenges from death. That would
Speaker 1: keep Ultron infinite Ultron infinitely tied up in like a
Speaker 1: million billion infinite different games, and he would never be
Speaker 1: able to escape like you couldn't, so he would never
Speaker 1: actually be like physically and existentially defeated, but he would
Speaker 1: just be like constantly being doing okay, like word jumbles. Okay,
Speaker 1: now we're playing tech and now we're playing Mortal Kombat.
Speaker 1: Now we're like playing jacks like twist and that would
Speaker 1: twister and it would go on and on.
Speaker 3: That is I really thought I had the most out
Speaker 3: of the books on some That is honestly a perfect
Speaker 3: answer and amalgamation of two perfect things. Igmar Bergman and
Speaker 3: Bell and Ted.
Speaker 1: That's it for the endgame. Let us know whether you
Speaker 1: agree you couldn't disagree more. Share your answers using hashtag
Speaker 1: xrv endgame. That's xrv endgame. Thank you Ac Bradley, Brian Andrews,
Speaker 1: and Rosie Knight for joining us in another episode of
Speaker 1: X ray Vision. Rosie, where can people find your stuff?
Speaker 1: This week?
Speaker 3: I have a ton of different stuff. I got a
Speaker 3: lot of Halloween esque situations going on with the spooky season.
Speaker 3: So I'm going to be at Polygon nerdict as always
Speaker 3: ign and I'm the only social media I have his Instagram,
Speaker 3: so feel free to follow me on now. I always
Speaker 3: shout out. The podcast is just Rosie Marks mr X.
Speaker 1: Next week our episode will be returning to its regular
Speaker 1: Wednesday release for your weekly dose of the deepest dives
Speaker 1: and hotestakes. Until then, what if, guys, what if? Just
Speaker 1: what if? Think about it? X ray Vision is a
Speaker 1: Crooked Media production. The show is produced by Chris Lord
Speaker 1: and Saul Rubin. The show is executive produced by me
Speaker 1: and Sandy Gerard. Caroline Reston Carlton Gillespie are our consulting
Speaker 1: producers and our editing. Sound design is by Sarah Gibalaska
Speaker 1: in the book That Chapter four. Big thanks to Brian
Speaker 1: Basquez for our theme music.