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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The Alec Baldwin movie Rust

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Speaker 1: is actually out. Surprisingly, let me say shockingly, after the

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Speaker 1: shooting death of a beautiful young mom a cinematographer on

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Speaker 1: the set, Helena Hutchins, they went forward with the movie. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for

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Speaker 1: being with us. I almost said the weight is over.

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Speaker 1: But was anyone actually waiting for this movie. It's been

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Speaker 1: almost four years after a gun held by Alec Baldwin,

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Speaker 1: loaded with live AMMO, was shot, killing an extremely talented cinematographer,

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Speaker 1: Helena Hutchins on the set, and now that movie, after

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Speaker 1: so many court actions, has made it to theaters. I'm

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Speaker 1: not a film a critic. The reviews had been mediocre

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Speaker 1: and O the word is it's very hard to watch

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Speaker 1: the movie because all you can think about is Lena Hutchins.

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Speaker 1: You know a lot of many, many films had been

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Speaker 1: shelved by studios for reasons much less serious than this.

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Speaker 1: But an average movie that resulted in the shooting death

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Speaker 1: of a young mom will now be in cinemas for

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Speaker 1: everyone to view. What happened on that set.

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Speaker 2: Tragedy on the film set of a new Alec Baldwin

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Speaker 2: movie and what police are calling a misfire of a

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Speaker 2: prop gun in Santa Fe, New Mexico. The Sheriff's office

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Speaker 2: there has just confirmed it was Baldwin who fired the

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Speaker 2: prop gun that killed a forty two world female director

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Speaker 2: of photography Helena Hutchins. The film's director, Joel Souza, was

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Speaker 2: also hurt. This incident happened on the side of the

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Speaker 2: Western Rust. Now detectives are investigating what type of projectile

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Speaker 2: discharged from this gun?

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Speaker 1: You were just hearing our friend Christine Johnson was CBS

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Speaker 1: what really happened. According to reports, the assistant yelled out

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Speaker 1: cold gun just before the shooting, which means the gun

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Speaker 1: was safe, that it was loaded with a blank. So

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Speaker 1: how do we have a woman, dad, another film person injured?

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Speaker 1: With me an all star panel to make sense of

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Speaker 1: it all? If we can? With me? Dominic Romano lawyer

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Speaker 1: joining us out of New York at Romano Law dot

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Speaker 1: Com is specialty entertainment law, and I can tell you

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Speaker 1: somebody's going to need a lawyer. Doctor Sherry Schwartz forensic

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Speaker 1: psychologists joining us. Karen L. Smith, forensic expert, host of

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Speaker 1: Shattered Soul's podcast, at Meerbones Forensics dot Com. Paul Zeke

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Speaker 1: joining US special guest, former police commander and author of

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Speaker 1: Stop Him From Killing Them on Amazon, and he has

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Speaker 1: lots of experience using firearms with blanks during live action

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Speaker 1: movie scenes like Terminator Salvation, Doctor Michelle Dupre forensic pathologists,

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Speaker 1: former medical examiner, author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide, and

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Speaker 1: a former police detective. But first to Alexis Terreschuk, Crime

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Speaker 1: online dot com investigative reporter joining us from Hollywood, Alexis

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Speaker 1: is what is getting folded into the story, right or wrong?

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Speaker 1: Is Alec Baldwin's history, his reputation for let me just

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Speaker 1: say hot headedness to put it euphemistically. If he thought

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Speaker 1: it was a blank and it should have been a blind,

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Speaker 1: then history aside it was an accident, But how can

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Speaker 1: it really be an accident when somebody loaded this prop

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Speaker 1: gun with real bullets. Just start at the beginning.

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Speaker 3: They were on a set in Santa Fe, New Mexico.

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Speaker 3: It's a western style movie. So they were sitting in

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Speaker 3: a church at an old church scene, and Alex Baldwin

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Speaker 3: was sitting in one of the pewes and he was

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Speaker 3: practicing what's called a cross draw and so that would

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Speaker 3: be where the person takes your left hand and grabs

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Speaker 3: the gun out of the holster on the opposite hip,

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Speaker 3: pulls it across to fire. He was practicing this move

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Speaker 3: standing the cinematographer, which is the person that makes the

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Speaker 3: movie beautiful.

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Speaker 4: This is the person that.

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Speaker 3: Films the scene. She was standing in front of him,

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Speaker 3: with the assistant director stand lembard, with the director standing

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Speaker 3: right behind her. He was looking over her shoulder to

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Speaker 3: see what it would look like when Alex.

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Speaker 1: Pulled the gun out.

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Speaker 3: He pulled it out of the side, points it out

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Speaker 3: at her to show them, pulls the trigger, and it

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Speaker 3: fires a live round into her, hits her in the

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Speaker 3: stomach and actually goes through her and grazes the director

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Speaker 3: sitting standing right behind her.

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Speaker 1: Hush has pronounced dead at an Albuquerque hospital after being

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Speaker 1: rushed to the emergency room. You know what, I always

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Speaker 1: love playing nine one one calls for a jury because

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Speaker 1: it takes you back to what's really happening. Not a description,

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Speaker 1: not someone recounting what happened, but you're hearing what really happened.

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Speaker 1: Take a listen to the beginning of that nine to

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Speaker 1: one one call.

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Speaker 5: We did watch the location of your emergency at banda

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Speaker 5: creek grant. Right now, we've got to people shot on accidentally.

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Speaker 4: She said someone was shot.

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Speaker 5: Two people accidentally shot on movie steps and and the

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Speaker 5: creek grant. I wondered, often I do with the medical

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Speaker 5: DECI who are you calling?

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Speaker 6: Clear the road?

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Speaker 3: Don't hire any emergency Fanasa three grand people accidentally shot

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Speaker 3: on a gourby steps.

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Speaker 5: Five top gun. We need help immediately, Fananasy three grants come?

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Speaker 5: They almost phone or okay, what is your name man Mitchell?

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Speaker 5: That Mitchell wants the phone where you're calling from?

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Speaker 2: Five up?

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Speaker 7: Don't hang up?

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Speaker 5: Okay, hold on just one second. Sounds like somebody else

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Speaker 5: is calling calling better miss. Everybody should be we can

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Speaker 5: help us. Director in our camera managed camera woman shot.

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Speaker 1: Now you hear repeatedly the word accident accidentally throughout that.

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Speaker 1: But is it an accident? Very often when you have,

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Speaker 1: for instance, a dui crash, people go, well, it was

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Speaker 1: an accident, but was it because the driver chooses to

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Speaker 1: go to a bar to order drinks, to drink to

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Speaker 1: become legally intoxicated, to then get the car keys, walk

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Speaker 1: to the car, get in the car, crank up, reverse

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Speaker 1: and drive out onto the roads. That sounds pretty deliberate.

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Speaker 1: So is it an accident? Is it gross negligence? Well,

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Speaker 1: take a listen to more of that nine to one

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Speaker 1: one call.

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Speaker 5: So was it loaded with a real bullet or I

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Speaker 5: cannot start you up? Okay, we have two injuries to

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Speaker 5: come and movie done us. Okay, we're getting.

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Speaker 8: Out there already.

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Speaker 5: Just down up on listening thing. Okay, I see that

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Speaker 5: yelled at me at lunch out in the value vision

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Speaker 5: can and yell at me. He's a subtructed gun. He's

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Speaker 5: responsible for how many No? No, no, I'm super hardy

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Speaker 5: as true that.

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Speaker 6: I know of.

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Speaker 5: I was hearing you were a hurtant and it went

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Speaker 5: off and I ran out. We all ran out. There

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Speaker 5: were bubles over the ID and the camera woman and

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Speaker 5: the direct and the directors were clearing the road to

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Speaker 5: come back. We're back on the web. We're back in

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Speaker 5: the town. If you called there back in the western town.

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Speaker 5: Is there any serious bleeding?

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Speaker 8: I don't know.

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Speaker 5: I ran out of the building, but I still have

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Speaker 5: to go through these Okay, are they completely.

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Speaker 1: Alert on the I'm here a lot of discussion in

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Speaker 1: the background. You hear this speaker talking to somebody else

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Speaker 1: about someone yelling at her and luch about script revision,

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Speaker 1: and she says she's supposed to shut the gun. He's

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Speaker 1: responsible for what happened. No, No, I'm a script supervisor

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The late arrival of the

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Speaker 1: movie Rust is the capstone of a horrible, horrible fact scenario.

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Speaker 1: There was an outpouring of grief when Helena Hutchins was

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Speaker 1: shot dead, leaving behind a little boy and now a widower.

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Speaker 1: Then came years of trials against Baldwin and the armorer

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Speaker 1: responsible for the weapons and the props on the set,

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Speaker 1: Hannah Gata's Red. It resulted in Gatara's read getting a

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Speaker 1: slap on the wrist, eighteen months behind bars in Alex

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Speaker 1: Baldwin's case being thrown out of court. Wow, just when

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Speaker 1: you think it's over. The is featured on one hundred

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Speaker 1: screens around the country. What happened to Helena Hutchins? Paul'sake,

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Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us? What went wrong? Obviously

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Speaker 1: there was a live bullet and what should have been

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Speaker 1: a prop gun, But what happened?

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Speaker 6: Nancy? The only explanation for this is a systemic breakdown

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Speaker 6: and systems that are in place to ensure that live

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Speaker 6: ammunition is not present on the set.

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Speaker 1: Okay, now that was a lot of words, Paul's I

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Speaker 1: think you're saying somebody didn't do their job.

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Speaker 6: Well, absolutely, somebody did not do their job and catastrophically

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Speaker 6: did not do that. There's no reason whatsoever for live

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Speaker 6: ammunition to be on the set of any set. Because

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Speaker 6: these weapons are capable of firing live rounds. They're not

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Speaker 6: really prop guns. They're deadly weapons being used as props.

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Speaker 1: Okay, hold on right there, I want to make that distinction.

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Speaker 1: You're absolute right when look, I'm a trial lawyer, I'm

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Speaker 1: a legal expert. You're the expert in this world. When

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Speaker 1: I say prop gun, I mean they're using it as

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Speaker 1: a prop. But you're making a very fine, subtle, but

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Speaker 1: important distinction. A prompt gun is a fake gun. I

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Speaker 1: don't think it even can shoot.

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Speaker 6: Is that right exactly? You're talking about? Say it prop nice? Correct,

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Speaker 6: It has a flat edge on it, it's incapable of

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Speaker 6: cutting you. These are things that are not deemed to

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Speaker 6: be dangerous. A prop gun is simply as utilized on set.

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Speaker 6: Our weapons that are capable of firing live ammunition, and

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Speaker 6: therefore accidentally live ammunition could be mixed with blank rounds.

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Speaker 6: You know, given time, this is just a disaster waiting

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Speaker 6: to happen. They need to move to true prop guns

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Speaker 6: that are incapable of chambering live ammunition. Until that happens,

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Speaker 6: this has a very strong chance repeating itself.

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Speaker 1: Well, okay, tell me this, Paul Zake, guys with me.

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Speaker 1: Paul Zike. He is a former police commander. He's an

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Speaker 1: author screen actors gil and has experience using blanks during

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Speaker 1: live action movie scenes where we all think they're shooting

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Speaker 1: real guns. If you suspend your disbelief in movies like

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Speaker 1: his Terminator Salvation, those aren't real guns. So why are

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Speaker 1: they using a real gun to start with? Paul Zike

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Speaker 1: And I mean to me, having been forced to handle

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Speaker 1: so many guns and so many homicides, what moron wouldn't

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Speaker 1: make sure that there were blanks in the gun.

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Speaker 6: It's hard to imagine that during the loading of the

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Speaker 6: weapon that that was not viewed very strictly as a

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Speaker 6: weapon is loaded. And also there's a chain of custody

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Speaker 6: issue here on the scene of Terminator Salvation.

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Speaker 9: As we would go out and we would conduct the

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Speaker 9: battle scene if you will, in the middle of the night,

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Speaker 9: we would be handed directly from the armor, fully automatic

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Speaker 9: weapons and magatizines, fully loaded with blanks, and we would

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Speaker 9: head straight out to where the scene was to be shot,

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Speaker 9: and then we would engage in the scene, you know,

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Speaker 9: five ten minutes later, hand the weapons straight back to

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Speaker 9: the armor, all the ammunition back to the armor, all.

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Speaker 6: The magazines back to the armor, and we would not

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Speaker 6: be able to touch those weapons again until the next scene.

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Speaker 6: So from a chain of custody standpoint, I went directly

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Speaker 6: from the armor directly to my hand, my you know,

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Speaker 6: the co actor's hands that were with me, and that

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Speaker 6: was maintained very strictly pulled on.

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Speaker 1: Paul, I've got to soak in everything you're saying, because

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Speaker 1: Dominic Romano a high profile lawyer joining us out of

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Speaker 1: New York's specialty entertainment law. And that's why Dominic's joining

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Speaker 1: us today. Dominic hold on. When you heard Paul's like, say,

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Speaker 1: China custody, I immediately thought of a serial murderer that

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Speaker 1: I prosecuted on one murder. We could get them on

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Speaker 1: one and ended up I would say, three weeks before trial.

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Speaker 1: I was just looking at the evidence and I noticed

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Speaker 1: that the bag that contained The evidence wasn't signed. It

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Speaker 1: had never been signed by the homicide cop that picked

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Speaker 1: it up from It was DNA in There was blood

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Speaker 1: from where it had been taken and carried to the

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Speaker 1: crime lab. It wasn't written on the back. Did anybody

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Speaker 1: tamper with it? No, he just didn't put his initials.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, Oh, dear Lord in Heaven, the chain is broken.

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Speaker 1: This could be attacked at trial. I had to go

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Speaker 1: back out to the jail, stand there and look at

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Speaker 1: this killer while he pulled his blood again. Then I

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Speaker 1: carried it with my investigator myself back to the crime

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Speaker 1: lab to have it retested. Praise the Lord in Heaven.

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Speaker 1: It was his DNA. Long story short, that's chain of custody.

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Speaker 1: Your case can be lost. You can lose a serial

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Speaker 1: killer because somebody didn't keep the chain to preserve the

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Speaker 1: integrity of the trial. That's what I thought when Paul

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Speaker 1: Zaike scept chain of custody. But did you also hear

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Speaker 1: him say dominic romano he handed it back to the

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Speaker 1: It sounds like he was saying armor or armory. But

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Speaker 1: I've been reading about this case. It's an armor er,

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Speaker 1: armor er who is the person in charge of all

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Speaker 1: the weapons, and.

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Speaker 10: I think Paul is absolutely right. Look, no one should

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Speaker 10: ever be killed by a gun on a film set period.

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Speaker 10: Those are the words of Brandon Lee's sister. Brandon Lee

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Speaker 10: shot on a film set in the early nineteen nineties.

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Speaker 10: This should not happen. There are established protocols, chains of

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Speaker 10: commend I mean, there appears to be some serious gross

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Speaker 10: negligence on that set to allow that to have that.

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Speaker 10: That is the appearance, and I don't know what evidence

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Speaker 10: can come out to rebut.

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Speaker 1: That presumption alive round in well, as Paul Zyke has

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Speaker 1: corrected me, it's not a prop gun. They were using

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Speaker 1: real guns. Hey, let me ask you a question, Paul's ike.

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Speaker 1: Explain the difference and what a blank looks like as

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Speaker 1: opposed to a live round a bullet. We're saying live rounds,

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Speaker 1: we're talking about a bullet. What's the difference. Can't you

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Speaker 1: just look at them and.

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Speaker 6: You can see the difference In most cases, absolutely, it's

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Speaker 6: very clear. You can see the difference. In some types

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Speaker 6: of calibers, say two two three, if you will, that's

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Speaker 6: what an AR fifteen would shoot. The blanks are kind

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Speaker 6: of crimped at the end to almost look like there's

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Speaker 6: a bullet on the end of them. But any sort

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Speaker 6: of trained professional whatsoever, when you're handling a blank, you

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Speaker 6: know it's a blank. When it's a bullet, you know

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Speaker 6: it's a bullet. The blank does not have a lead

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Speaker 6: projectile or a steel projectile at the end of the round,

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Speaker 6: So at the end it's either flat or it's slightly

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Speaker 6: crimped to hold in the gunpowder, which you know, the

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Speaker 6: firearm usually needs the gun powder to correctly function the

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Speaker 6: weapon and cycle the weapon, and it's one of the

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Speaker 6: reasons why blanks are used.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Paul Zyke, I really respect you, but you're gonna

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Speaker 1: have to dumb me down for me, okay, because I

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Speaker 1: would have to put you through intensive training before you

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Speaker 1: took the stand because a lot of people do not

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Speaker 1: know what you just said. Just think about it and

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Speaker 1: think you there's a way you can say it in

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Speaker 1: more simple terms. What's the difference between a blank and

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Speaker 1: a lie bullet when you look at it? Speak English

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Speaker 1: man in the meantime. Wait a minute, you mentioned Brandon Lee,

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Speaker 1: and you're absolutely right. We pulled sound of other cases

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Speaker 1: almost identical to this. This is not the first time

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Speaker 1: it's happened. Believe it or not, Tyler, could you roll

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Speaker 1: our cut forty four? Let's follow up on what Paul

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Speaker 1: Zyke said about Brandon Lee.

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Speaker 11: That's a bully compound that killed Brandon Lee. Some believe

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Speaker 11: a piece of a croplyd without gunpowder, and it may

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Speaker 11: have been left accidentally in the gun. Blank was fired

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Speaker 11: at Brand and in some field let's shot out the properly,

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Speaker 11: mortally wounding him.

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Speaker 4: Though it was an accident waiting to happen.

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Speaker 11: The Crow crewmember we spoke but says that there were

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Speaker 11: many opportunities for an accident to happen.

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Speaker 1: Are the working conditions.

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Speaker 7: On the set of The Crow particularly bad? Threely long hours,

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Speaker 7: eighteen hour days back to back at times pushing ninety

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Speaker 7: one hundred hours a week, six day weeks is way

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Speaker 7: too much. Do you think that that over work, that

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Speaker 7: exhaustion might have resulted in this accident? Stage your conscience

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Speaker 7: olive them were definitely not called. It could have been

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Speaker 7: prevented with better management.

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Speaker 11: The publicist for the movie The Crow denies that the

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Speaker 11: working conditions were insane.

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Speaker 12: Certainly everyone was very tired and exhausted from the shoe,

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Speaker 12: but these are professionals and they're used to working conditions

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Speaker 12: like this.

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Speaker 1: Okay, guys, you were hearing our friends and inside Edition,

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Speaker 1: and I want to follow up on what we're just

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Speaker 1: hearing with Alexis Tereschuk. I played that sound for a reason, Alexis,

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Speaker 1: because on the Alec Baldwin said of rust, there apparently

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Speaker 1: were problems with working conditions. A group of the crew

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Speaker 1: had walked out I think the night before the claiming

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Speaker 1: that they had bad hotels. They were an hour away

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Speaker 1: from a hotel or motel and if they worked late

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Speaker 1: into the night, they have to drive through I guess

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Speaker 1: the desert and a lot of them were actually sleeping

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Speaker 1: in their cars overnight. That's just some of the complaints

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Speaker 1: I've heard. But what are the other complaints, if any

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Speaker 1: on the Alec Baldwin movie set.

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Speaker 3: Well, there have been complaints that things were not safe quote.

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Speaker 4: But one of the the person is.

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Speaker 3: Being directly blamed for a lot of the unfaked is

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Speaker 3: when you were listening to the nine one one calling

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Speaker 3: you said you heard the woman saying that he was

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Speaker 3: yelling at me things like that. This is the assistant

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Speaker 3: director that they're talking about, and this is the assistant director,

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Speaker 3: David Hall who handed the gun to Baldwin and said,

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Speaker 3: this is a cold gun. So what the people on

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Speaker 3: the set were saying is that Halls was not a

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Speaker 3: responcable person. He was very angry. He was making the

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Speaker 3: job very difficult for everybody to do, and they didn't

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Speaker 3: trust him.

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Speaker 1: Wait a minute, you're saying, David Halls was an assistant director. Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: Well what about the honorer? Is she the one responsible

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Speaker 1: for all the weapons and the blanks or the bullets? Guys,

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Speaker 1: take another Listen to our cut forty three. This is

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Speaker 1: about practically the same thing happening before. Listen.

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Speaker 11: It was here at the Carrol Coast Studios in Wilmington,

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Speaker 11: North Carolina, that actor Brandon Lee was filming The Crow.

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Speaker 1: Ironically, the film.

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Speaker 11: Is about a man who dies and comes back to

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Speaker 11: life to advanish his death. Shortly after midnight last Tuesday,

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Speaker 11: Brandon Lee was preparing to film a routine action scene

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Speaker 11: the script for him to get shot at as he

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Speaker 11: walks through door carrying a bag of groceries. Michael Massey,

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Speaker 11: the actor doing the shooting, is reportedly devastated by Lee's

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Speaker 11: death and remains in seclusion.

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Speaker 1: The gunny was using supposed to be loaded with blanks.

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Speaker 4: From the camera's role. Brandon Lee was performing for the

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Speaker 4: last time.

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Speaker 1: Not only can you drive to a theater and see Russ,

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Speaker 1: you can pay about fifteen dollars for an at home purchase. Okay,

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Speaker 1: would you want to why you and Karen Smith?

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Speaker 13: Well, we deal a lot with forensics in physics. When

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Speaker 13: we do a reconstruction, we use snippets of time and

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Speaker 13: sometimes that can be split seconds, and this includes trajectories

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Speaker 13: of projectiles, and.

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Speaker 8: This trajectory can generally be explained by the reporting. Alec

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Speaker 8: Baldwin was reported to be sitting at a church pew

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Speaker 8: to align a camera angle when the gun was fired.

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Speaker 8: Alena Hutchins then collapsed on the floor and Joel Susa

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Speaker 8: was struck in the clavicles. That's an upward.

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Speaker 13: Trajectory, which means both Hutchins and Susa were standing up

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Speaker 13: when the event occurred. The projectile that perforated Helena's body

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Speaker 13: and subsequently struck Joel.

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Speaker 8: Now, in order for that to happen, the kinetic energy,

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Speaker 8: which is energy.

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Speaker 13: As the result of motion, would be very high. We're

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Speaker 13: dealing with mass or the amount of matter in an

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Speaker 13: object and energy dispersion.

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Speaker 8: Guns carry a high volume of energy. In a small space,

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Speaker 8: and that from.

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Speaker 13: My experience, it tells me that it was something other.

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Speaker 8: Than just the paper or elastic wadding from a blank round.

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Speaker 8: That needs to be.

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Speaker 13: Confirmed by the emmy and the investigators. But there are

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Speaker 13: reports of live ammunition bullets being on the set and

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Speaker 13: that particular gun allegedly being used for target practice that morning.

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Speaker 13: There's a lot of questions that needs to be answered

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Speaker 13: by the investigators and them.

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Speaker 1: Again for the set being used as target practice. Paul Zeike,

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Speaker 1: that shouldn't be that you've got crew members out shooting bottles.

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Speaker 1: I think that that's coming out with live bullets and

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Speaker 1: use that same gun for a sane and a church

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Speaker 1: full of people.

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Speaker 6: And Nancy, I just want to clarify the prior point,

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Speaker 6: so very simply, a blank is a is a shellcasing

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Speaker 6: with gunpowder in it with no bullet. A bullet is

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Speaker 6: the same exact thing with more gunpowder and a live

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Speaker 6: bullet at the end of it that is made to

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Speaker 6: travel through the barrel and exit the weapon. Back to

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Speaker 6: what you were saying, that's the cardinal rule that's been broken,

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Speaker 6: whether you're whether you're involved in police training or you're

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Speaker 6: involved in a movie set keeping live ammunition away from

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Speaker 6: weapons that fire live ammunition, and keeping weapons at fire

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Speaker 6: blanks away from those instances. And when you mix those

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Speaker 6: two together, the odds of somebody having a spare live

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Speaker 6: round in one of their pockets or you name it

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Speaker 6: is super high. And it sounds very sloppy, and it

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Speaker 6: just just opens the door for terrible things to happen.

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Speaker 6: And that's where the systemic breakdown and that controlled environment.

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Speaker 1: I'm Jolliet Paul Zyke. You're right. Super sloppy is one

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Speaker 1: way to put it. Gross negligence or unintentional murder is

398
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:03,960
Speaker 1: another way to put it. I think I hear Dominic

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Speaker 1: Ramano jumping in go ahead.

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Speaker 10: Yeah, basically it's a catastrophic miscalculation. I think two people

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00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:14,159
Speaker 10: here should be folks. We should focus on one is

402
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Speaker 10: the armor like this is only According to reports, her

403
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Speaker 10: second movie with jaris Read and the assistant director Dave

404
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Speaker 10: Hall's you mentioned before. According to reports, he was fired

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Speaker 10: from a twenty nineteen production of Freedom's Past. I first

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Speaker 10: member suffered a minor injury.

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Speaker 1: WHOA why why white white? You got me drinking from

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Speaker 1: the fire hydrant, which is not a bad thing. It's

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Speaker 1: too much at once old on. Right in the world,

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Speaker 1: would you have somebody that was fired off another similar

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Speaker 1: job handling your weapon? Okay? Is that what you just said? Dominic?

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Speaker 10: Okay?

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Speaker 1: Almost so almost.

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Speaker 10: The armorer is twenty four years old. The person handling

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Speaker 10: the weapons, it's only her second film. She was just

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Speaker 10: in a podcast last month where she said, you know,

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Speaker 10: she's a bit nervous about her but it went well.

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Speaker 10: While there's apparently a famous armor okay, so we have

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Speaker 10: that an experienced armor number two, we have the assistant director,

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Speaker 10: one of the ad dve Holes. Apparently, according to a report,

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Speaker 10: he was fired from the twenty nineteen production. The movie

422
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Speaker 10: was Freedom passed after crew members suffered guess what a

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Speaker 10: minor injury when a gun unexpectedly.

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Speaker 1: Discharged dominate romano. The words similar transactions are jumping to mind.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this solidifies my thought that this is not

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Speaker 1: an accident, because an accident is when you totally don't

427
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Speaker 1: see it coming. It's just like out of the blue.

428
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Speaker 1: But if this guy, if it's correct, the ad had

429
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Speaker 1: a previous incident where somebody was shot on a set.

430
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Speaker 1: Even if it was a minor injury, then you should

431
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Speaker 1: have seen you either new or should have known. Would

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Speaker 1: you agree with that dominate Romano.

433
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Speaker 10: There going to be some serious questions to be asked,

434
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:04,119
Speaker 10: and there have to be answers, and we don't have

435
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 10: good answers. Someone is either going to be involved in

436
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:12,360
Speaker 10: a very expensive lawsuit or, depending on what they knew

437
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 10: and when they knew it and how careless they were,

438
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,159
Speaker 10: probably facing some time. The other issue you alluded to

439
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 10: earlier is cost cutting. It's rampant in the industry right now,

440
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:28,200
Speaker 10: and the production company's decision not to book the crew

441
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 10: hotel rooms near the actual set, but to have them

442
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,119
Speaker 10: travel an hour in each direction to get to and

443
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:40,200
Speaker 10: from their accommodation, to have long hours where people walked

444
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,720
Speaker 10: off the set earlier that day in protest. So this

445
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 10: is a combination of what turned out to be a

446
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:51,119
Speaker 10: lethal combination at catastrophic calculation on the part of the

447
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:51,879
Speaker 10: production company.

448
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,920
Speaker 1: Well, you just said a mouthful, all in a good way,

449
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:59,159
Speaker 1: betraying the armor or being an experienced ad having a

450
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 1: prior similar transaction, and budget cuts problems amongst the crew.

451
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:07,360
Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cut six that are from

452
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 1: our friends at News Nation.

453
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 12: Now let's start with the people responsible for handling a gun.

454
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:15,159
Speaker 12: There are no ubiquitous rules across all film sets, but

455
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:17,880
Speaker 12: generally there are some guidelines that they follow and here

456
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 12: into a budget. Budget usually plays a big role. In

457
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,919
Speaker 12: many sets, there are no fewer than three people responsible for.

458
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:24,920
Speaker 6: Monitoring a weapon.

459
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 12: Prop Mastercums in charge of all cropts, is often supported

460
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:31,159
Speaker 12: by a safety officer and a SUN coordinator, and depending

461
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:32,879
Speaker 12: on the state, you may also need to bring in

462
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,919
Speaker 12: an armorer whose only job is handling weapons. An armorer

463
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,120
Speaker 12: is required by New Mexico state law.

464
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:53,399
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace because many critics believe the

465
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 1: tragedy of Helena's shooting death overpowers anything that might be

466
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:04,400
Speaker 1: good about movie. What happened? What really happened that day

467
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:08,359
Speaker 1: on the set of Rust, Doctor Dupree, I'm sure you,

468
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 1: like myself, have had to handle weapons in front of jurys,

469
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 1: and I learned this from watching a pro try cases.

470
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 1: I would always pick the gun up, holding it face

471
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 1: down with a barrel pointing to the ground, so the

472
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,159
Speaker 1: jury or anyone else would not be alarmed. What you

473
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,400
Speaker 1: don't want to do is scare your jury. I would

474
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 1: walk in front of the jury holding the weapon nose down,

475
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 1: open the chamber, let them see me check it, hold

476
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 1: it up like I was examining it through, you know,

477
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 1: at my eye level, so they could see that it

478
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 1: was empty, and then shut it and then give it

479
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 1: to the witness without fail. Even if it was a

480
00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 1: weapon that I knew was inoperable. That was soop. Why

481
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 1: would that not occur on a movie set? But describe

482
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 1: how you're supposed to handle weapons exactly, Nancy.

483
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 4: You described it perfectly. That is exactly what you should do.

484
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:16,960
Speaker 4: And if you're giving a weapon to someone else, normally

485
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 4: you have the chamber open so that they can also see,

486
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 4: and then you both check it and know that it's

487
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 4: empty or that the blanks.

488
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 1: Are in it. Tell me what you can discern about

489
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 1: what Karen Smith, forensics expert, just told us about the injuries.

490
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 1: What happened, Nancy.

491
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 4: Even though these are quote prop guns or blanks, they

492
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 4: can still obviously do devastating damage the wadding or whatever

493
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 4: they are filled with, even in a blank.

494
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 1: But this was not a blank.

495
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 4: This is an actual projectile.

496
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 1: And as we know, you mean a bullet speak English,

497
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 1: a bullet.

498
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, this is a bullet and the caliber of

499
00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 4: that bullet of the gun is what is going to

500
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 4: determine how how much damage is done. As she explained,

501
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:06,960
Speaker 4: the higher the caliber, the more energy in that bullet,

502
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 4: and so the more damage done to the physical bodies.

503
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 4: And of course the location where that bullet enters the

504
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 4: body in this case was devastating.

505
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 1: You know, another issue to doctor Sherry Schwartz. I've been

506
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 1: on a lot of TV sets, obviously in movie sets

507
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 1: for you know, cameos or some legal issue. And I

508
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 1: got to tell you, doctor Sherry Schwartz, a movie set

509
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 1: takes on a whole It's like you're in a different world.

510
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 1: Like when you go to the movies and you sit

511
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 1: down and it goes dark, your mind takes you there. Well,

512
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 1: you're on a movie set. I've never been on a

513
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 1: single movie set that went on time. You go till

514
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 1: one or two o'clock in the morning, it's pitch dark outside.

515
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 1: You keep going until you get the shot or you

516
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 1: finish the scene, or whatever it's called in movie world.

517
00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 1: I think that there is a suspended fear you think

518
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 1: you're at a movie set, like when you go to

519
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 1: Disneyland or when you're on vacation on a cruise ship.

520
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 1: You suspend your normal thinking. It doesn't seem real and

521
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 1: you're not thinking, Wow, there's a gun I could get

522
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:20,800
Speaker 1: shot because it's quote just a movie, it's not real.

523
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 1: How do we, let me just say, suspend our disbelief,

524
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:30,960
Speaker 1: suspend rational rules of functioning when you're on a movie

525
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 1: set or in a movie, you know, like in movies

526
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 1: where there's some nut with a gun and you hear

527
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 1: a sound, but you don't think it's real because you're

528
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 1: in a movie. What happens in the human mind, doctor Sherry.

529
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 14: Well, when you don't think that something is actually real,

530
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:54,720
Speaker 14: then you would not calculate accurately what the potential risks are, right,

531
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 14: And so there is this gun on the set, but

532
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 14: everybody thinks, oh, it's just make believe. We're setting this

533
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 14: up to film it. Nobody's actually going to get hurt.

534
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 14: And so what happens mentally is that you underestimate what

535
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,719
Speaker 14: the potential risks are. And what happened here is an

536
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 14: egregious underestimation.

537
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 8: Right, So for the rest of us, that's to make believes.

538
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 14: Maybe even for the actor, they know that they're just

539
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 14: playing a role, and everybody around them might know they're

540
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 14: playing a role. But there are people on the set

541
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:29,240
Speaker 14: who are responsible for that gun and for taking that

542
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 14: proper care and knowing what the potential risks are.

543
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 1: Do you, Alexis Treesha Crime online dot Com investigative reporter,

544
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 1: you have heard Dominant Romano Paul's like, well, everyone on

545
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 1: the panel weighing in. But apparently there were a lot

546
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 1: of problems and a lot of disgruntled crew members. I

547
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 1: understand that one of the motels they had set them

548
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 1: up to stay overnight was at a place for the homeless,

549
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 1: and there were drug addicts there. They were afraid to

550
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 1: stay there. What was going on on the set, Well, it.

551
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 3: Seems like what they were trying to do was make

552
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 3: this film as cheaply as possible. Understandable, but they were

553
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 3: putting people's lives at risk. It was fiftyse hotels were

554
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 3: fifty miles away, so after working fourteen hour days, the

555
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 3: crew was having to drive over an hour to get

556
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 3: to their hotel. Then they would have to be back

557
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 3: within like six hours, so they would get almost no

558
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 3: sleep at all. But they were also saying that things

559
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 3: were just not safe. There had been an incident a

560
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 3: few days earlier that one of the prop guns again

561
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:36,480
Speaker 3: prop done real gun, had been accidentally fired and so

562
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 3: the crew has been complaining to the producer saying this

563
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 3: is not a safe working environment, and they walked off

564
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 3: the set.

565
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 4: And so Hollywood is.

566
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 3: Very much a union business, but the producers hired non

567
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 3: union people to replace them. These nine union people, though,

568
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 3: are not the people. That's not the armor, and it's

569
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 3: not the assistant director, and everybody hasn't talk there at

570
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:04,960
Speaker 3: a line of protocol. You have so many steps in

571
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 3: the line of defense. So when this gun got to

572
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 3: Alex Baldwin, at least two other people were responsible for

573
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:14,240
Speaker 3: saying that it wasn't loaded.

574
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 1: I mean, didn't somebody even scream out cold gun. I

575
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 1: mean they have to yell it out, you know what

576
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 1: you were just saying. I know so many times for

577
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 1: different shoots. I don't know who he is that carries

578
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:31,239
Speaker 1: that comes over and they have to do it a

579
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 1: certain way. They have to say a certain thing, and

580
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:37,719
Speaker 1: they say it really loudly. I don't know why, but

581
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 1: I'm sure there's a reason for it, just like they

582
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:44,320
Speaker 1: would yell out cold gun and everybody would hear it.

583
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 1: But I guess they yelled it out without checking alexis.

584
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 3: And there are reports that yes, so there were three

585
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 3: guns that were set up and they were put on

586
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:54,799
Speaker 3: a table outside the church set.

587
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:56,359
Speaker 1: And this is because of COVID.

588
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:58,880
Speaker 3: Nineteen protocols, so not a lot of people are in

589
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:02,800
Speaker 3: the an inclosed set. They're not there three guns. So

590
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 3: the assistant director picked it up. Dave Halls, as the

591
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:08,880
Speaker 3: other guest said, you know, has a history of a

592
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 3: lot of accidents on sets, and handed it to Bodlin

593
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:14,879
Speaker 3: and he is the one that yelled out, cold gun.

594
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:17,880
Speaker 3: There's no nobody had said there's so many people have

595
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,239
Speaker 3: spoken to the police on the set, so many of

596
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,360
Speaker 3: the other crew members, and they said they didn't know

597
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 3: whether it actually was.

598
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 1: Empty or not.

599
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 3: And these guns were used at lunch. This is a

600
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 3: post lunch break, so they broke for lunch at twelve thirty.

601
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 3: They come back after lunch. During that lunchtime, there are

602
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 3: reports that those crew members were using this gun and

603
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 3: other guns to shoot beer bottles out in the desert

604
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 3: area and using it as target practice. So there could

605
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 3: have been alive and there said there was lots of

606
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:52,360
Speaker 3: live ammunition. Nobody was told they couldn't bring live ammunition

607
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 3: on sets.

608
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 1: That's another thing that you live round on set.

609
00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:57,880
Speaker 3: That's the big problem here.

610
00:35:57,920 --> 00:35:59,840
Speaker 1: And I think I would seeing is that Paul Japan,

611
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:01,239
Speaker 1: I'd like to jump in there.

612
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,279
Speaker 6: It's simply a breakdown of the security of the scene.

613
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 6: The only people there that our arms should be security personnel.

614
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 6: And you know, in my years, my decade of fighting

615
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:17,759
Speaker 6: to keep workplaces safe and to stop stalking offenders from

616
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 6: killing victims, I can tell you one thing, and that

617
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:25,279
Speaker 6: is nobody thinks the unthinkable is going to happen. It's

618
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:28,239
Speaker 6: a matter of just human thinking. They think that, well,

619
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 6: that happened to somebody else, that didn't happen to me.

620
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:33,840
Speaker 6: And because this is somewhat of a rare occurrence on

621
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:35,960
Speaker 6: a set, people got laxed.

622
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:41,280
Speaker 9: They got lackadaisical about fundamental when it comes to shooting

623
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:42,360
Speaker 9: a scene such as this.

624
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:44,160
Speaker 11: And just like at any.

625
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:46,400
Speaker 6: Workplace, this is a workplace out in the middle of

626
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 6: the desert, just like it would be in an office building.

627
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:53,800
Speaker 6: Those protocols broke down and people at work, attempting to

628
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 6: do the right thing for the right reasons, had a catastrophic,

629
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:02,359
Speaker 6: devastating thing happened. Because we as human beings think, well,

630
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:04,800
Speaker 6: if it hasn't happened, it won't happen. And that's just

631
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:07,240
Speaker 6: not the reality of life when it comes to dangerous events.

632
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:12,080
Speaker 1: The movie Rust now in cinemas across the country. MENI

633
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 1: Illegal eagles still scratching their heads over why a judge

634
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:21,919
Speaker 1: throughout Alec Baldwin's case. Nancy Gray Soney, Goodbye Friend,