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Speaker 1: Buddy Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. I've thought about in

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Speaker 1: the past when I go out onto crime scenes and

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Speaker 1: I see the homes of individuals, and you see them

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Speaker 1: in all various conditions. You walk in and you'll see

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Speaker 1: places that are absolutely impeccable, and not just style but

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Speaker 1: also in how they are kept. But those seem to

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Speaker 1: be the exception and not the norm, at least in

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Speaker 1: my experience. I've had those where I've gone into, you know,

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Speaker 1: homes that I guess I would regard in my status

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Speaker 1: as mansions. But many times you walk into places and

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Speaker 1: there's been a total disregard for those things that have

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Speaker 1: been I don't know, a crue through a life. You've

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Speaker 1: spent money on them, but yet they kind of lie

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Speaker 1: about in trash heaps, things broken, torn, what would to

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Speaker 1: most people seem to be rubbish, just kind of piled

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Speaker 1: off on the sides, and you often wonder what brought

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Speaker 1: this person to this state to in dwell this type

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Speaker 1: of environment. But you know, sometimes you find things hidden

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Speaker 1: beneath those piles and secreted away in locations that you

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Speaker 1: wouldn't normally think you would find things that would draw

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Speaker 1: you to I don't know, discomfort, maybe even horror on

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Speaker 1: body backs. Today we're going to talk a little bit

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Speaker 1: about a rather gruesome discovery, a gruesome discovery that has

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Speaker 1: been made in far western Colorado in Mason County. I'm

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Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan and this his body bags. Dave you

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Speaker 1: ever been much of a yard sale of tender I

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Speaker 1: have been.

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Speaker 2: I'm glad you asked. Actually, you know what, Wait, you

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Speaker 2: haven't won this weekend. Every day's a party, every meal's

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Speaker 2: a feast is just like Marty Grau without the beads

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Speaker 2: when you're at at somebody's yard sail. You've got a

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Speaker 2: home that has been recently sold, and the people that

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Speaker 2: bought the home are flippers. House flippers fairly common practice.

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Speaker 2: Oftentimes they'll come into an area and they'll buy a

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Speaker 2: home that's undervalued for various reasons. It could be damaged,

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Speaker 2: it could need some repairs, or things like that. In

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Speaker 2: this particular case, according to a neighbor, the people who

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Speaker 2: had lived in the home before might have been hoarders.

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Speaker 2: There are varying degrees of hoarders. Guilty pleasure of mine

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Speaker 2: is watching the TV show Hoarder.

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Speaker 1: I actually worked a death involving the former spouse who

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Speaker 1: the the lady that died was had been previously married

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Speaker 1: to a well known radio celebrity from the forties and

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Speaker 1: the fifties. And if anyone's ever heard of the show Skyking,

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Speaker 1: which was a show that was on the radio and

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Speaker 1: then it it kind of jumped over to television. And

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Speaker 1: she died in this home. And Dave, I swear you

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Speaker 1: walked through her home and she had stacks and stacks

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Speaker 1: and newspapers, and there were paths that were cut all

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Speaker 1: the way through the newspapers in order to get to

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Speaker 1: her various living areas. It made it kind of made

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Speaker 1: me hyperventilated environment. I couldn't I couldn't function. Yeah, she was.

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Speaker 1: And this is when people kept news. All I could

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Speaker 1: think of is if you smoked, if you if you

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Speaker 1: tip your cigarette anywhere, this whole place is going up.

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Speaker 1: And it was an apartment.

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Speaker 2: Oh even worse. Well, in this case, we have a

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Speaker 2: people that they sold the home. And what I've had

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Speaker 2: to do with some research on this because to start

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Speaker 2: right where we are, okay, new owner. The new owners

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Speaker 2: come in and they're cleaning the house up, they're preparing

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Speaker 2: to flip the home, and so they run an ad

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Speaker 2: social media on Facebook, Craigslist, what have you hate? We

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Speaker 2: got stuff in this house. Come by and get what

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Speaker 2: you want. It's all free. They just need it toed

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Speaker 2: it off, and people did. One of the items was

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Speaker 2: a freezer, and you know, as they were getting the

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Speaker 2: freezer out to take it off site, they wanted to

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Speaker 2: unload it because it's too heavy to move. And it

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Speaker 2: was a working freezer. That was the catch. Hey, it's

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Speaker 2: a working freezer, come get it. Well, what do you

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Speaker 2: have inside of working freezer? Frozen stuff? And there are

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Speaker 2: bags of frozen meat. Don't know exactly what kind because

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Speaker 2: it's been in there for a long time, but there's

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Speaker 2: a bag, a black bag. It's wrapped up, and they

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Speaker 2: get it out and it starts to kind of unraup

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Speaker 2: and fish fillets fall out, and so they kind of assume, well,

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Speaker 2: this's just old food. And they get the bag up

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Speaker 2: to the tail of a pickup truck that they're going

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Speaker 2: to try to put the freezer in. And as they're

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Speaker 2: unwrapping it more because it's coming apart, a head falls out.

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Speaker 2: A human head falls out of the bag. Now you

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Speaker 2: just had you know, Uncle Ben's fishvallets fall out the

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Speaker 2: next thing. You're not expecting a You're never expecting a

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Speaker 2: human head. They immediately stop everything and call the police.

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Speaker 2: Mark your calendar's friends. If you find a frozen head

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Speaker 2: and a freezer, your life now becomes the time before

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Speaker 2: you found the frozen head and the time after, because

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Speaker 2: you will never forget this moment in time.

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Speaker 1: No, and I can. I can tell you most assuredly

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Speaker 1: that anybody that discovers a human remain, it does it

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Speaker 1: marks you at that moment in time. And I actually

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Speaker 1: had this happen to me. I remember one one case

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Speaker 1: famously for me, where I was the person that discovered

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Speaker 1: a set of human remains. Remember when you work for

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Speaker 1: the medical exam, you're called out as a result of

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Speaker 1: human remains that have been found. Okay, now, it could

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Speaker 1: be a homicide, it could be a natural, it could

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Speaker 1: be skeletal remains, and we would always come in the aftermath.

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Speaker 1: But there had been a multiple death in this residence.

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Speaker 1: And I was searching through some of the remainder of

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Speaker 1: the home and opened a closet and there in the

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Speaker 1: bottom of the closet were pots and pans, but they

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Speaker 1: were stacked on top of a rug. And when I

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Speaker 1: went to pull the rug up. There was blood and

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Speaker 1: then I pulled it up even more and I saw

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Speaker 1: the backside of a female that was in a fetal

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Speaker 1: position and she had been killed and stuffed in the closet,

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Speaker 1: and it, hey, brother, it got my attention. I'll have

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Speaker 1: to tell you that I'll ever forget that moment. And

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Speaker 1: one thing that always stood out it was I believe

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Speaker 1: it was her son that had killed her. He had

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Speaker 1: taken had taken a rendering from when he was a

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Speaker 1: small child of a Valentines that he had cut out,

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Speaker 1: you know, kids will do this on construction paper, and

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Speaker 1: it said I love you, mom, And that was resting

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Speaker 1: on top of the pots and pans that were stuffed

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Speaker 1: on top of the carpet which contained her body. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, even as an old death investigator, I remember

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Speaker 1: finding bodies. I cannot even begin to fathom this idea

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Speaker 1: that you are, John Q. Citizen. Yeah. I mean, everybody's

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Speaker 1: encountered rotten food and a refrigerator and you go digging

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Speaker 1: about and you don't know what you're gonna find, and

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden you take out the black bag

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Speaker 1: and the thing begins to give way. You see fish,

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Speaker 1: Then all of a sudden, rolling onto the ground at

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Speaker 1: your feet is a human head. Yeah, my head's still

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Speaker 1: kind of reeling right now, Dave. No pun intended in

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Speaker 1: my head is I cannot imagine the price that is

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Speaker 1: paid by this individual that saw this happen literally right

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Speaker 1: before them, as this bag gives way and this head

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Speaker 1: comes rolling out. If I am correct, I don't think

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Speaker 1: that the head was the only human anatomical element that

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Speaker 1: was found at the scene, which again even makes this

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Speaker 1: more chilling. If it could possibly be more chilling.

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Speaker 2: How worse can it? I mean, this is the old

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Speaker 2: joke of you know, but then you know, and so

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Speaker 2: you've got the head and that makes them stop everything

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Speaker 2: they're doing. You've got to remember when you set this scene,

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Speaker 2: this is a home that has been bought, not by

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Speaker 2: somebody who's moving in to start a new life. This

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Speaker 2: is built, but bought by somebody who they're going to

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Speaker 2: clear it out, fix it up, and resell it, that's all.

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Speaker 2: And so people are there to get whatever free stuff

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Speaker 2: they can. They think they got a great deal free

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Speaker 2: frozen freezer that is working, and here comes the head.

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Speaker 2: Well you call the police immediately and they come out. Now,

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Speaker 2: my question is this Joe? Because when the police get

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Speaker 2: that call, are they thinking, Okay, they think it's a

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Speaker 2: frozen they think it's a frozen head in the freezer.

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Speaker 2: But it could be and they started thinking fake head.

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Speaker 2: It could be a joke, It could be any number

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Speaker 2: of it could be a Halloween thing. Yeah, and then

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Speaker 2: when they get there, Now do they pick up the

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Speaker 2: phone and call you, you know somebody and say can you

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Speaker 2: meet us over there?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? And anytime you have any question about and I'm

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Speaker 1: saying you referring to the police, anytime they have a question.

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Speaker 1: And this happens more than I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: people realize you have a question about h some type

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Speaker 1: of a bit of anatomy I like to say anatomical element,

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Speaker 1: because you never know what that's going to be. If

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Speaker 1: there is any kind of question whatsoever, you call the

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Speaker 1: corner mme and they'll come out and they'll take a

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Speaker 1: look and they'll they'll confirm it. So you'll see it

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Speaker 1: in the state that the police see it. Well, yeah, yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 1: and hopefully you know and here's the rub. We don't

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Speaker 1: know what the people actually did with this item once

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Speaker 1: it you know, gravity took over to the Earth.

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Speaker 2: What we have in the story are first hand accounts

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Speaker 2: of people that were there, and that's why I'm I

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Speaker 2: was looking at all the different accounts of what people

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Speaker 2: claimed on social media and other places, and there happens

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Speaker 2: to be a person who did take pictures of the

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Speaker 2: police going in and out. And that's what I wanted

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Speaker 2: to ask you, because other than the head, again, it

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Speaker 2: was wrapped in a plastic there was a plastic bag.

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Speaker 2: Inside the plastic bag. This head had been wrapped several

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Speaker 2: times apparently, and they were unwrapping it because they obviously

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Speaker 2: have felt different. The bag felt different. But the head

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Speaker 2: fell out, and there were hands in there as well. Now,

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Speaker 2: because the police were called as soon as they head

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Speaker 2: hit and nobody touched it after that, apparently, that's I'm

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Speaker 2: guessing it was. If it's somebody like me, after I

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Speaker 2: stopped screaming and crying, I would and somebody called nine

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Speaker 2: one one. You know I wouldn't touch it, and you

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Speaker 2: tell anybody else don't touch that. It's evidence.

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Speaker 1: Now, No, I could have sworn it hands you found

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Speaker 1: they found the hands.

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Speaker 2: Yes, But the thing is, I don't know if it

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Speaker 2: was the people that found the hands or if it

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Speaker 2: was the police.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, because I got to tell you

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Speaker 1: if if even at the stage, after everything I've seen,

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Speaker 1: and just as a civilian as I am now, if

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Speaker 1: this is laying at my feet, I'm backing off, and

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell everybody else to back off. Don't touch

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Speaker 1: this any longer. I don't know what Look, if somebody

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Speaker 1: is of a mind to put a head in a freezer,

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Speaker 1: I don't know what else they'll put in there, right

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Speaker 1: Because I want the police to come out and secure it,

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Speaker 1: and I want there to be accountability. First off, I

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Speaker 1: don't want them to think I had anything to do

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Speaker 1: with it, and so that's that's an important piece to it.

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Speaker 2: The thing is, I was looking over this and the

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Speaker 2: people that came to get the freezer, like I said,

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Speaker 2: they're there to pick up a working freezer, and there

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Speaker 2: was stuff in the working freezer, and they saw other meat,

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Speaker 2: and they had decided they were going to donate the

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Speaker 2: freezer food to an animal shelter, which I think it's

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Speaker 2: all well and good, but you don't know what it is.

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Speaker 2: You don't know how long it's been there. I don't

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Speaker 2: think this is I'm not suggesting you do that at all.

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Speaker 2: I hate throwing stuff away, But you don't give away

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Speaker 2: something you don't know its origins.

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Speaker 1: You just don't. Yeah, and to be able to verify it,

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Speaker 1: even if it's got you know, some kind of meat

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Speaker 1: stamp on it, you know where I just I don't

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Speaker 1: know about giving this away to an animal shelter. They

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Speaker 1: and they even admitted that this collection of meat, and

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Speaker 1: we're not talking about the head at this point, just

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Speaker 1: the meat that it was in fact freezer burned. So

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Speaker 1: maybe it was just completely I mean, I don't know

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Speaker 1: about you. Particularly back in my bachelor days, I would

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Speaker 1: buy stuff and stick at my freezer and inevitably I'd

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Speaker 1: never use it. It would wind up being freezer burned. And

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Speaker 1: so yeah, that that happens. So would the animals actually

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Speaker 1: consume this and.

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Speaker 2: Don't do that? That's the tip, you know what your

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Speaker 2: tip of today on body bags. If you've got meat

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Speaker 2: in your freezer and you can't tell what it is,

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Speaker 2: don't give it animals.

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Speaker 1: Rules rules to live by, Yeah, absolutely, And and but

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Speaker 1: you know, the police are faced with a heck of

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Speaker 1: a conundrum here because they're coming into this thing cold

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Speaker 1: literally no no pun intended. Yeah, they're coming in here cold.

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Speaker 2: Where give me a heads up next time you're going

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Speaker 2: to do something, I will.

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Speaker 1: I will. And when you have, when you have remains

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Speaker 1: like this and you're trying to understand it and trying

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Speaker 1: to understand the origin of this, Uh, this becomes highly

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Speaker 1: complex because that signals. That signals for us from a

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Speaker 1: forensics perspective, that the rest of the house, the rest

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Speaker 1: of that structured dave is the potential for a crime scene.

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Speaker 1: Because we've talked and we even did a Remember we

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Speaker 1: did a special at Crime con about dismemberments, remember yah,

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Speaker 1: and people. I think we blew a lot of people's

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Speaker 1: minds relative to this because you and I had encountered

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Speaker 1: these cases and here we are, we're back at it again.

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Speaker 2: And oh man, I forgot about us doing that. Yeah yeah,

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Speaker 2: you kid look at us weird after that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well they did. But that's okay. I'm used to it.

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Speaker 2: But let me ask you this, because the police always

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Speaker 2: act like, you know, it's a homicide investigation.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm gonna be honest with you.

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Speaker 2: Is there any other way you could look at finding

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Speaker 2: a frozen head and hands. You're not finding a whole

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Speaker 2: body that's frozen. You're finding parts of a human being.

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Speaker 2: You're finding the head and hands where we don't hear

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Speaker 2: anything about finding any other part, just head in hand. Now,

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Speaker 2: I'm asking you, how can you look at that and say, Okay,

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Speaker 2: do we actually have like a table in coffee where

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Speaker 2: we debate how a person's head and hands could end

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Speaker 2: up in the freezer and it not be a homicide?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? The only reasonable explanation I could think of, And

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Speaker 1: I don't even know how reasonable it is if this

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Speaker 1: was an anatomical donation that they had stolen or that

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Speaker 1: someone had taken away from a medical school or a

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Speaker 1: dental school. Dental schools in the past have been known

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Speaker 1: to use human heads what merely yeah, to work on

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Speaker 1: teeth and really yeah, I don't know if that still

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Speaker 1: occurs to this day or not, but used to years

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Speaker 1: and years ago, and there are specimens like that that

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Speaker 1: have been dissected out. But you know, how do you

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Speaker 1: explain the hands as well? And here's the thing we've got.

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Speaker 1: You know, I'm going back to this term element. We've

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Speaker 1: got three elements, okay, And just because we're looking at

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Speaker 1: this through the lens of science at this point in time,

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Speaker 1: you cannot assume anything. So this is what the police

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Speaker 1: are faced with relative to these three elements. They are

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Speaker 1: faced with a prospect that these three anatomical elements, two

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Speaker 1: hands and a head don't necessarily have to have the

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Speaker 1: same point of origin. Okay, doesn't mean that they came

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Speaker 1: from the same body. I know people are probably listening

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Speaker 1: and rolling their eyes and say, come on, Morgan, be realistic.

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Speaker 1: I am being realistic. You cannot assume anything, right because

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Speaker 1: for I mean, how many times do we talk Dave

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Speaker 1: or do our coll we You and I haven't covered

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Speaker 1: a lot of serial cases on here, but how many

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Speaker 1: times have we sat through lectures or listened to something

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Speaker 1: on television? And you'll have people that will say, well,

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Speaker 1: serial killers love to take trophies. You know, they love

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Speaker 1: to take trophies. I don't know, maybe that's the case.

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Speaker 1: But you cannot just simply blow it off. It cannot

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Speaker 1: just simply dismiss it.

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Speaker 2: You said the whole house now as a crime scene. No, yeah,

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Speaker 2: we did hear a neighbor referred to the house as

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Speaker 2: the house of hoarders, and.

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Speaker 1: Well in the backyard as well, any of the art

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Speaker 1: space as well.

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry, goeh no, no, And that's why the new

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Speaker 2: owners okay. When the house was sold. A week before

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Speaker 2: the house was sold, the a neighbor reported that the

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Speaker 2: family had a U haul truck. Now, I want to

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Speaker 2: back up and tell you a little bit about the

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Speaker 2: family that was there. Can I do that real quick?

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Speaker 1: Oh?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah, you had the Imer family there. I am,

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Speaker 2: I am Er, I am Eer, Bradley, David Iimer, and

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Speaker 2: lee Ann Iimer.

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Speaker 1: And I looked him up.

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Speaker 2: I followed the tree on Facebook because David Iimer he died.

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Speaker 2: It was COVID related. He went in in June twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty one and never came out and died on July

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Speaker 2: seventh of twenty twenty one. They did a fundraiser online.

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Speaker 2: His wife did just said, Bradley Iimer came down with

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Speaker 2: COVID last month and was admitted ic U June twenty seventh.

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Speaker 2: He passed away July seventh. Our family's trying to raise

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Speaker 2: money to pay for his burial and medical And she

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Speaker 2: goes on to list this is what she says. Now,

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Speaker 2: this is in twenty twenty one. We're talking about this

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Speaker 2: head being found in the working freezer in January of

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty four. We're talking last month, in July of

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty one. This is what Leanne Aimer wrote. We

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Speaker 2: had a flood in our home a couple of months

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Speaker 2: ago and have been living in a hotel since May third.

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Speaker 2: All right, they've been in a hotel since May third.

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Speaker 2: Her husband gets sick in June, dies in July. All

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Speaker 2: in twenty twenty one, she said, they're trying to work

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Speaker 2: it out with the homeowners or insurance and contractors to

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Speaker 2: complete the repairs needed. Our daughter is starting her senior

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Speaker 2: year in a couple of weeks, and her father's passing

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Speaker 2: has just devastated her. They were the best of friends.

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Speaker 1: You know, as an investigator you have to have, particularly

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Speaker 1: if you're looking at a case where you've got all

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Speaker 1: of this familial unit. That is, you know that this

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Speaker 1: event is concentric, so it's like right in the center.

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Speaker 1: It's the bull's eye when you begin to think about

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Speaker 1: where the head is found, the hands are found, and

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Speaker 1: so everything else that extends out from there, all the

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Speaker 1: family connections, the immediate people that were occupying that dwelling.

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Speaker 1: There's I think more than just the brother and the

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Speaker 1: sister and the mother. There's probably a couple of other people.

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Speaker 1: At least there's an indication of that. Where are all

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Speaker 1: of these people? And right now the police to this

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Speaker 1: date have not released who these remains belonged to.

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Speaker 2: Is it possible, Joe, if I die and you don't

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Speaker 2: have and my family can't bury me, they can't. They've

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Speaker 2: tried to raise ten thousand dollars to bury mister Aymer,

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Speaker 2: and they raised about fifteen hundred. I think, Okay, if

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Speaker 2: they don't raise enough money to bury you, does the

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Speaker 2: family ever get the body back? Can I go and

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Speaker 2: just claim the body and say, can you put it

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Speaker 2: in my van? I'm gonna take him home for a

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Speaker 2: little while.

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Speaker 1: It all depends on state statue.

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Speaker 2: Really, I was making a joke. That's actually really that

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Speaker 2: you can.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we you know, famously, we had a case in

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Speaker 1: Atlanta where we had family members that live lived up

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Speaker 1: in the mountains in North Georgia. I'll never forget this

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Speaker 1: tonight that had happened and Georgia, and you know, Atlanta

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Speaker 1: is not in the Blue Ridge Mountains. These people lived

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Speaker 1: up in the Blue Ridge Mountains in North Georgia, and

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Speaker 1: they came and they picked up their loved one in

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Speaker 1: the back of a pickup truck and covered him with

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Speaker 1: a tarp. They had a burial certificate and all of them,

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Speaker 1: and we had the death certificate, and they weren't going

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Speaker 1: across state lines with him, so we released the body

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Speaker 1: to them and they had a family plot where the

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Speaker 1: family all pitched in and dug the grave. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: it is a possibility, but most of the time there

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Speaker 1: is In most counties there's an indigent burial fund. And

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Speaker 1: so if the family does not have means in order

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Speaker 1: to bury the body, and you know who the person

376
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Speaker 1: is that is the deceased, you can go and beg

377
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Speaker 1: if you will the county look, please aid us, and

378
00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:00,919
Speaker 1: they will bury the body for you. But you're not

379
00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:03,760
Speaker 1: going to get the body back immediately. If that's what

380
00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:08,879
Speaker 1: is going to happen either way, I hope because in

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Speaker 1: this particular case, that we're going to be able to

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Speaker 1: find the rest of the body, because right now all

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Speaker 1: were left with are a pair of hands and a head.

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Speaker 1: So in Mason County, Colorado, the authorities are faced with

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Speaker 1: several problems. First off, I think the biggest thing is

386
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Speaker 1: who is this? You think about the head the hands,

387
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Speaker 1: We've got ways to identify the body if we have

388
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Speaker 1: a head in the hands, and then they have to determine, well,

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Speaker 1: is it possible to understand what may have been the

390
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Speaker 1: cause of the mechanism of death. Well, if you're limited

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Speaker 1: to only hands in a head, it's going to be

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Speaker 1: a tough, uphill battle. All right.

393
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Speaker 2: Well, let me ask you this too, because there was

394
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Speaker 2: a report that these might have been hoarders in their

395
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Speaker 2: varying degrees of hoarding. We know that the yard was

396
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Speaker 2: a mess. We know there was a lot of stuff

397
00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:24,960
Speaker 2: in there that was toted off, and that's why the

398
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,240
Speaker 2: flippers wanted somebody people to come and get stuff. But

399
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:29,720
Speaker 2: one of the things that was described a neighborhood taken

400
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:34,600
Speaker 2: pictures of the Soon after they got police got there

401
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:38,600
Speaker 2: determined what they really did have. They pretty much shut

402
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:40,640
Speaker 2: down the area and people showed up and has matt

403
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:44,720
Speaker 2: suits and then white truck with a camper shell without

404
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,920
Speaker 2: windows showed up that was identified as belonging to the

405
00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:54,040
Speaker 2: Mason County Coroner's office. Neighbors decided the coroner's presence meant

406
00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:58,399
Speaker 2: there was human remains, because at first it was, you know,

407
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:00,960
Speaker 2: it was a doll. It was a Halloween thing, you know,

408
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,520
Speaker 2: But then they see the corner and it's like, oh

409
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:07,080
Speaker 2: my gosh, that was human. People wearing corner jackets are

410
00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:10,240
Speaker 2: starting to show up. And then the night after this

411
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,000
Speaker 2: is on a Friday afternoon, on Saturday night, they're working

412
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:16,199
Speaker 2: all day Saturday, Saturday night, law enforcement returns to the

413
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:21,600
Speaker 2: house and went through with black lights. The neighbors were

414
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,639
Speaker 2: watching them go from room to room with the black lights.

415
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,280
Speaker 2: That glow is different than what you would normally see.

416
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:31,760
Speaker 2: What were they looking for with black lights? Joe, blood deposition.

417
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Speaker 2: This is messy business. Yeah, when anytime you get anytime

418
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Speaker 2: you have a dismemberment, particularly when you're talking about the head.

419
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Speaker 2: Even okay, we're going to say this from this perspective,

420
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Speaker 2: even if the person is dead, the head is so vascular,

421
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:54,480
Speaker 2: the neck is so vascular, you're going to have some

422
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,119
Speaker 2: level of seepage that's going to come out of the body.

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Speaker 2: So let's just say, for instance, in an example, you

424
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Speaker 2: shoot some body dead, okay.

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Speaker 1: Or you're left with this idea, Well, what do you

426
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:12,479
Speaker 1: do in order to take apart this body? So that

427
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:16,399
Speaker 1: is going to leave behind the least amount of mess. Well,

428
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:20,639
Speaker 1: if they're shot, you're going to have blood that comes

429
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:22,879
Speaker 1: forth from any kind of defect in the body. If

430
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 1: they're choked out, if they're suffocated, you're not going to

431
00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:31,959
Speaker 1: have that manifestation. But what you will have is is

432
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Speaker 1: the deposition of blood from the process of dismemberment. And

433
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 1: this blood is not going to be as It's not

434
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 1: going to be dynamic like we've talked about high velocity

435
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:47,200
Speaker 1: blood spatter. It's not going to be like that with

436
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 1: a gunshot wound or even medium velocity. It'll be more low.

437
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 1: It might be passive dripping, and that's going to give

438
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,119
Speaker 1: you an indication of the orientation of where the body

439
00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:01,240
Speaker 1: was and the activities of the end of that did

440
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 1: this perhaps maybe even the type of tool that was

441
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:09,680
Speaker 1: utilized to facilitate this. That's another thing that's very important

442
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:13,879
Speaker 1: here because if these people were hoarders, I'd like to know,

443
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,919
Speaker 1: first off, what walked out the door before these folks

444
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:19,639
Speaker 1: got to the freezer. Were there tools in the house.

445
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 1: Can you imagine what a nightmare it would be for

446
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 1: the cops to have to go out and try to

447
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:26,200
Speaker 1: track down everybody that had been in that house. Hey,

448
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 1: did you happen to claim an old handsaw you saw

449
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:33,160
Speaker 1: laying around? Did you grab an old chainsaw? Was there

450
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 1: a limb? Saw? Was there or did you have a

451
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 1: limb shears? Because those have been used in cases I've

452
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 1: been involved in. Knives. Was there a collection of knives?

453
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 1: So anything with an edge to it like that that

454
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:48,720
Speaker 1: could facilitate a dismemberment. You got to go collect that

455
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,439
Speaker 1: stuff and track it down. That's what makes this case

456
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:57,159
Speaker 1: nightmarish for whoever is involved in it. And I guess

457
00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:01,479
Speaker 1: one of the big questions also, Dave, is where's the

458
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 1: rest of these remains? We still got upper and lower torso.

459
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 1: Now I don't know that they're necessarily intact, but why

460
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 1: would you go to the trouble of saving a head

461
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:18,199
Speaker 1: and hands and then get rid of the rest of

462
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,400
Speaker 1: the body? Where is that body? Did you take it

463
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,120
Speaker 1: and bury it in the backyard? Did you cart it off?

464
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 1: And you look at that and you think, well, what

465
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 1: type of vehicles have the people own that have lived

466
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 1: in that house? That makes those cars potentially potentially a

467
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:40,440
Speaker 1: secondary crime scene or tertiary crime scene. Holy. So, yeah,

468
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,720
Speaker 1: it's so it was endless. It is endless, and you

469
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:46,119
Speaker 1: could go nuts thinking about it if you're an investigator.

470
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 2: I was pinching about it purely from the standpoint, and

471
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 2: they said, there's all this extra meat that they were

472
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 2: going to take to and I thought, well, what is.

473
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 1: Li Hey, No, no, no, you're You're absolutely right. I

474
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:56,880
Speaker 1: want to know how that meat is wrapped. And even

475
00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 1: if it is wrapped, I'm not going to believe my

476
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 1: lie in eyes, as as my granny used to say,

477
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:04,439
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to confirm it for myself that anything

478
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,359
Speaker 1: that's packaged in there. You know, they use the term

479
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 1: animal meat. Now I don't know if that means that,

480
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 1: you know, somebody had been l hunting or deer hunting

481
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 1: or killing antelope. You're out in western Colorado and they

482
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,879
Speaker 1: had it, they had it butchered at a you know

483
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 1: what we call down here in the South, a deer

484
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 1: cooler where you had somebody that could butcher the meat

485
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 1: for you or is this something else, if you know

486
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,360
Speaker 1: what I mean. And the head and the hands were

487
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 1: just secondary to that. It's also fascinating to me too

488
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 1: that you've got fish in the bag with the head,

489
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 1: And I had thought about that, and I'm thinking, well,

490
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:47,400
Speaker 1: what significance do fish have? Well, if it we all

491
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 1: know what rotting fish smells like. There is nothing that

492
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 1: quite stinks as bad as fish. And I'm wondering if

493
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,879
Speaker 1: that was used in an attempt to mask the smell

494
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 1: of decomposing human remains.

495
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,600
Speaker 2: I'll tell you what. Six months before he died, I'm

496
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 2: looking at a picture of Bradley Eimer holding up a

497
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:08,879
Speaker 2: big fish. He says, fishing. He's got a big old

498
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:10,920
Speaker 2: cigar in his mouth. He's holding up a big fish.

499
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 2: I'm wondering if that was the trophy.

500
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:15,640
Speaker 1: You know, yeah, it could have been, but I think

501
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 1: it was. It could have been one of the trophies.

502
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,360
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a I think it said, I think

503
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 1: it said plural like fish fell out of the bag

504
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:28,680
Speaker 1: and they apparently were on the surrounding the head, which

505
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:31,880
Speaker 1: was contained wrapped in another piece of plastic. That's yeah.

506
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 2: It was like the you know when you're wrapping up

507
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:35,879
Speaker 2: something to go in the freezer, and the way it

508
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 2: sounded to me that because there was meat that was

509
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 2: wrapped in there, and I know, we can wonder what

510
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 2: it was. I do think because of the way it

511
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 2: was wrapped, in the way it was identified, in the

512
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 2: way it was wrapped, that that was meat that was

513
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 2: wrapped differently than the head was wrapped, that the head

514
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 2: had been wrapped multiple times, and that it was inside

515
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,480
Speaker 2: of another bag, and inside of this other bag there

516
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 2: was you know, the fish fell out first because the

517
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 2: bag was ripping, had been there for a while.

518
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 1: Yeah. You know, people talk about about serial killers holding

519
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:13,719
Speaker 1: onto trophies. I've got another perspective on this, and and

520
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 1: this has nothing to do with uh with a serial

521
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 1: killer necessarily being involved. However, when you have individuals that

522
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 1: commit a homicide, it's always amazing to me how many

523
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 1: of these people hold onto the remains that they don't

524
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 1: take them away in order to dispose of them in

525
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 1: such a manner that is not going to connect them

526
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 1: back to it. If you're keeping a human remain within

527
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 1: your domicile automatically, you know the police are going to

528
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 1: come looking for you if this, if this is discovered,

529
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 1: and why would you not create separation. I think it

530
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,440
Speaker 1: has a lot to do with people wanting to have

531
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 1: possession and control over these damning items that they want

532
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 1: to have accountability. Because if you go and you bury

533
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 1: that head out somewhere in the high desert out in

534
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 1: western Colorado or wherever you know they might have taken

535
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 1: it to, you no longer have control over that item.

536
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 1: It's thrown to the winds of chance at that moment, Tom,

537
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 1: maybe you don't do a good enough job. Maybe you

538
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 1: think you can keep it better secure there in your home.

539
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 2: It's interesting because if you do let it out of

540
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 2: your possession, it could be found by somebody else. But

541
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 2: let me ask you this, Joe, because we are only

542
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 2: dealing with the head and hands scientifically. Yeah, first things first,

543
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 2: what do you do? Because they said there was an

544
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 2: autopsy done, and okay, I get that. I think of autopsy,

545
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 2: body laying out and we got the work. But now,

546
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 2: I mean, you have the head and hands and that's it.

547
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 2: Where do you start and what kind of information are

548
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 2: you going to be able to get from the hands

549
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 2: and the head.

550
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 1: I think that since those two areas are targeted, obviously,

551
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 1: at least that we know of, they have been taken

552
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 1: away from from the body, first place I'm going to

553
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 1: start is doing thorough X rays. I wonder if, first off,

554
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 1: with the head, in particular, if there is any indication

555
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 1: of fatal trauma, and that can come in any number

556
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 1: of ways, dependent upon how soon they got that head

557
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 1: into a frozen state. Dave, if that person was struck

558
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 1: in the head, you're still going to have evidence of

559
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 1: say hemorrhage contained inside of the head, also the skull itself.

560
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 1: If they were struck with some kind of blunt object,

561
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 1: you're going to have evidence perhaps of a hairline fracture

562
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 1: or even a depressed skull fracture. You might even be

563
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 1: able to appreciate if the person had raccoon eyes. Maybe

564
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 1: they had been so traumatized in the head that these

565
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 1: to some of ridges right through here and going back

566
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 1: into the floor of the skull that's been fractured, we

567
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:10,480
Speaker 1: see that and if depended upon here's really really something

568
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 1: to consider as well, how much of the neck was

569
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 1: left attached to the head, because if you can go

570
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 1: into the neck and do a limited dissection, because it's

571
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 1: going to be self limiting because of the lack of

572
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 1: anatomy that you have, when you reflect back that tissue,

573
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 1: are you going to be able to see hemorrhage in

574
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 1: the soft tissue of the neck in the muscle it's

575
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 1: a hyoid intact. There's that word again, you know, all

576
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 1: those sorts of things you want to see if their

577
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 1: teeth have been knocked out, and you know, and the

578
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 1: same thing with hands. But the head is going to

579
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 1: be very key here when it comes to X raying

580
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 1: the body. If they've been tortured, you can look at

581
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 1: the hands to see if you've got any fractures, and

582
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 1: are those fractures related to an anti mortal event, which

583
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 1: means before death, Like where they torture, where they hit

584
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 1: in the head, in the hands with a hammer, did

585
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:04,960
Speaker 1: where they sliced in any way with a sharp object.

586
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 1: Did this person try to defend themselves. There'd be evidence

587
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 1: of that on the hands. So there's a lot you

588
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 1: can do with the post warnum examination. After you do

589
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 1: the X ray, then you're going to go in and

590
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 1: you're actually going to do a dissection, and you know

591
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 1: you're going to dissect that head. You're going to open

592
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 1: the scalp, you're going to open the skull, you're going

593
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 1: to take out the brain, you're going to weigh it.

594
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 1: You're going to look at the eyes. It would not

595
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 1: surprise me if the eyes had been removed as well

596
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 1: by the physician to retain them. You're not you want

597
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 1: to be able to have these specimens so that you

598
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 1: can go back and if you can't find anything in

599
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 1: the immediate you can get get a consult with someone else.

600
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 1: In a case like this, I would certainly reach out

601
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 1: to a neuropathologist and have them look at the skull

602
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 1: and look at the brain and render their opinion, because

603
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 1: sometimes the stuff doesn't appear necessarily with the unaided eye.

604
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 1: You might have to take micro scopic slides and look

605
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 1: at it. And again, there's so many unanswered questions here.

606
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 1: You're going to retain as much as you possibly can

607
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:08,920
Speaker 1: in case like this day.

608
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 2: You can get DNA and all that, right, and you

609
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:12,920
Speaker 2: test the DNA against every family member and.

610
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and that's certainly something and you would

611
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:22,279
Speaker 1: probably request those those living in this home, they're gonna

612
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:24,759
Speaker 1: go get a buckle mu coastal swab from each and

613
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 1: every one of these people. That's going to be valuable

614
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 1: nuclear DNA that they're going to retrieve from each one

615
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 1: of these people, as far as you know, harvesting DNA

616
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:40,320
Speaker 1: sample from the head, yeah, yeah, and from the hands,

617
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 1: and there's other things too. I think it's important to

618
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:50,839
Speaker 1: remember regarding the head, unless they've all been extracted, you're

619
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:54,839
Speaker 1: gonna have teeth, and do the teeth do they have

620
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 1: all of their teeth? Do they have what's referred to

621
00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 1: as carrious dentition, which means that it is. They have

622
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:04,239
Speaker 1: rotten teeth, they've never been under dental care. Do they

623
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,279
Speaker 1: have restorations, do they have caps, do they have fillings,

624
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 1: do they have dental implants? Are they wearing a partial?

625
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:14,360
Speaker 1: So the teeth are going to tell a lot about

626
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 1: the person, the lifestyle. And then from an anthropomorphic standpoint,

627
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:25,360
Speaker 1: if the skull or the head is not completely intact,

628
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 1: I mean with soft tissue, they could do a facial

629
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 1: reconstruction on the skull. Because it's going to be important

630
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 1: to determine the race of the individual. Does this individual

631
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 1: the race of the head, does it fit with the

632
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:44,240
Speaker 1: other racial characteristics of the individuals that live in this home?

633
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 2: Will the head continue to decompose after you put it

634
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 2: in the freezer.

635
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:51,719
Speaker 1: It's going to be greatly slowed. What happens is is that,

636
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:54,759
Speaker 1: you know, we talked about freezer burn a little while ago.

637
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 1: What happens is is that we use the term desiccation.

638
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 1: You hear that with fruit and that sort of thing,

639
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:05,239
Speaker 1: like desiccated dates or something like that. Essentially, all that

640
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 1: means is that it's drying out. So over a period

641
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 1: of time, you can have a frozen item like this

642
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:17,760
Speaker 1: and it will literally begin to contract kind of shrivel

643
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 1: the bone want but all of the tissues, so it

644
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 1: might not be recognizable, but you could still appreciate hair length,

645
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 1: hair color, Do they have eyebrows, Had they plucked their eyebrows?

646
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 1: If it's a male, perhaps do they have facial hair?

647
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 1: And you can even you can even appreciate this far

648
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 1: down range, even if the head has been frozen. You

649
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Speaker 1: can appreciate things like beard's double have they shaved recently

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Speaker 1: prior to death, If they do have a beard, how

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Speaker 1: long is the beard? All of those little little nuances

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Speaker 1: in a case like this are going to be pivotal

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Speaker 1: when they're trying to determine what exactly happened. But I

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Speaker 1: do know this. To date, the police have not released

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Speaker 1: any information, given us any indication as to first off,

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Speaker 1: who this person is. They've also not released what the

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Speaker 1: cause of death is. But we do have a manner

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Speaker 1: the police and the coroner have decided that this is

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Speaker 1: a homicide. We're going to need to follow up on

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Speaker 1: this case. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body

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Speaker 1: Backs