1 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 2 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb. 3 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 2: And I am Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday, so we're 4 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 2: heading into the vault for an older episode of the show. 5 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 2: This one originally published October twenty fourth, twenty twenty three, 6 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:21,759 Speaker 2: so keeping the Halloween vibes going, at least on the vault. 7 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:25,840 Speaker 2: This is part one of our series about shadows. 8 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 1: All right, let's do it. 9 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. 10 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 11 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: is Robert. 12 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:47,560 Speaker 2: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick. And today our October 13 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 2: journey continues. If you're new to the show, we spend 14 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 2: all of October covering spooky subjects, and we are plowing 15 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 2: right on toward Halloween at a frightening pace, at such 16 00:00:57,080 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 2: a pace that by the time we reach it, our 17 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 2: skin may be seer by the wind. But today we 18 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 2: wanted to embark on a new series of Halloween related 19 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:10,320 Speaker 2: episodes about shadows. Before we started, I was thinking about 20 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 2: the series on necromancy that we published earlier this month, 21 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:17,039 Speaker 2: in which we explored a lot of ancient accounts of 22 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 2: people summoning the dead, especially to get information about the 23 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:23,680 Speaker 2: future or some of the kind of hidden information from them, 24 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 2: And we talked about stories that assumed the ancient Greek 25 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:33,839 Speaker 2: model of the afterlife a subterranean realm of darkness called hades, 26 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:37,720 Speaker 2: where the souls of the dead dwell in a weak, pitiable, 27 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 2: and insubstantial form. So this would be unlike modern Christian 28 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:45,480 Speaker 2: notions of the dead dwelling either in heavenly bliss or 29 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 2: infernal punishment. Haiti seems to be most often thought of 30 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:53,919 Speaker 2: as a gloomy, forlorn dungeon where your spirit is locked 31 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 2: away forever, more like a slowly fading memory. It's not 32 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 2: really a punishment, and basically everybody goes there, but it's 33 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 2: not good. It's better to be alive. I guess. The 34 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 2: only real exception seems to be like if you're turned 35 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:09,680 Speaker 2: into a god, which occasionally happens if you're really cool. 36 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, but you got to have you gotta have an 37 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 1: end for that. Yeah, not just they don't have that 38 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: out there, just anybody. 39 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 2: So anyway, relevant to our topic. In this next series 40 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 2: of episodes, I was thinking about how in English translations, 41 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:27,360 Speaker 2: for example, of the Homeric myths. These dead souls that 42 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 2: populate the underworld here are sometimes known as shades. I 43 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 2: think this terminology comes up in the story, for example, 44 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:38,919 Speaker 2: in the Odyssey, where Odysseus goes to the edge of 45 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 2: the underworld in order to summon up shades. I think 46 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:43,919 Speaker 2: he wants to speak to the shade of Tyresius. 47 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 1: I believe that's right. 48 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:47,359 Speaker 2: Yes, But he sees his mom, he sees a bunch 49 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:50,239 Speaker 2: of people, he waves a sword at him, he slaughters 50 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 2: a ram, and all that. And I was wondering when 51 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:56,959 Speaker 2: the English translations use the word shade here, does that 52 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 2: mean shadows just in the regular sense of shadow, And 53 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 2: does that usage, if so, go back to the original Greek, 54 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:08,079 Speaker 2: as best I can tell, it does. I'm not a 55 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 2: Greek scholar here, but I was looking up some Greek 56 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 2: English lexical sources, and from what I could find, it 57 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 2: looks like the Greek word used here is skia, the 58 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 2: Latin equivalent being umbra. And this word does indeed carry 59 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:25,960 Speaker 2: these multiple meanings. It could be used to refer to ghosts, 60 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:28,519 Speaker 2: to spirits of the dead, like the kind that are 61 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:30,920 Speaker 2: called forth to drink the blood of the ram and 62 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:34,400 Speaker 2: tell the future to Odysseus, or it could refer to 63 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 2: the utterly mundane shade and shadow cast by a tree, 64 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 2: or a mountain, or a person, just whatever blocks out 65 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 2: the sun. And I thought this double meaning was very interesting. 66 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 2: What is it about the mundane shadows we experience every 67 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 2: single day that would cause people to give them this 68 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 2: hair raising secondary meaning. 69 00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: This is a great question, Yeah, because shadows are every 70 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 1: where there that you know, we encounter our own shadow 71 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 1: every day. And yet the term shadow, the idea of 72 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 1: a shadow carries a lot of weight, certainly supernaturally and 73 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 1: fictionally and folklorically, as we'll get into in a bit here, 74 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 1: but just linguistically, it does a lot of legwork, you know. 75 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:23,919 Speaker 1: I decided to turn to Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and 76 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 1: Fable on this one. It's often a fun way to 77 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:31,359 Speaker 1: sort of dive into not just the meaning of words, 78 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 1: but also just like antiquated usages of those words. So 79 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:39,159 Speaker 1: the author here reminds us that shadow is a word 80 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 1: with numerous figurative and applied meanings. A shadow maybe a ghost, 81 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 1: as we see in Macbeth hence horrible shadow. It may 82 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 1: also be a faint representation, as in a shadow of 83 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 1: a doubt. It may also mean a constant attendant, and 84 00:04:56,720 --> 00:05:01,040 Speaker 1: Brewers specifically references Milton's paradise lost here sin and her 85 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:01,919 Speaker 1: shadow death. 86 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:04,280 Speaker 2: It's hard for me to imagine that pairing of her 87 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:07,280 Speaker 2: shadow death does not in some sense derived from its 88 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:09,919 Speaker 2: usage in the Bible walk through the Valley of the 89 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 2: Shadow of Death exactly. 90 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 1: And of course we often use the term shadow as 91 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 1: a verb to follow someone around and sort of learn 92 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:22,159 Speaker 1: from them, to shadow someone at work. Generally, when that 93 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 1: is used, there are no haunting connotations, but shadow may 94 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:29,919 Speaker 1: also be a moral darkness or gloom now Brewers, Like 95 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 1: I said, is also always great for some antiquated sayings. 96 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 1: Here are a few examples gone to the bad for 97 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 1: the shadow of an ass aka, choose your battles and 98 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 1: don't battle for something as dumb as the shadow of 99 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 1: a donkey? 100 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:45,920 Speaker 2: Does that go back to a story? I don't know. 101 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:50,280 Speaker 1: I have no additional context, but feel free to start 102 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 1: incorporating it into your daily conversations, listeners. There's another one, 103 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:58,719 Speaker 1: May your shadow grow less? This one apparently has Eastern 104 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 1: origins according to Brewers. And I'll get back to this 105 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 1: one in a bit. And then the idea of being 106 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: reduced to a shadow or emaciated, you know, so slender, 107 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 1: so starved that even your shadow is reduced. But you know, 108 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:16,160 Speaker 1: obviously your shadow would be reduced if your body was reduced. 109 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 1: But it's also not that simple, right, because shadows can 110 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: be manipulated. We can cast a very long shadow depending 111 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: on where we are in reference to the sun. Joe, 112 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 1: I don't know about your experiences with this as a 113 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:30,919 Speaker 1: as a father, but I remember when my son was 114 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 1: a mere toddler that we would have some fun with 115 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: our own shadows in the park, especially in the way 116 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 1: that a child can be shown to manipulate their own shadow, 117 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 1: to cast a long shadow, to cast a big shadow, 118 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 1: and also have it interact with other shadows, like have 119 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:51,279 Speaker 1: your shadow dinosaur hand, you know, bite another person's shadow, 120 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:52,159 Speaker 1: and that sort of thing. 121 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:57,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't know how much consciousness my daughter has 122 00:06:57,640 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 2: of her own shadow yet, but I have done some 123 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 2: shadow puppet shows for her in the light of the 124 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 2: setting sun, and it's interesting to watch because I think 125 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 2: the few times I've done this, my daughter has tried 126 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 2: to reach out and touch the shadow is projected on 127 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 2: the floor or on the wall, but of course there's 128 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 2: nothing to touch. But she perceives that this moving display 129 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 2: of shapes must be some kind of object that she 130 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 2: could grasp. 131 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's something about shadow. I think a child's fascination 132 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 1: with them perhaps reveals much about what remains there, at 133 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 1: least in some part of our mind. Even after we 134 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: have grown accustomed to them, once they've become old hat, 135 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 1: there are still going to be moments where we notice 136 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 1: the peculiar when it comes to the shadow, that a 137 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 1: shadow doesn't necessarily tell the truth. But also at the 138 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:48,119 Speaker 1: same time, a shadow can reveal things that are there 139 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 1: that you know, perhaps you can't see an individual, but 140 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 1: you can see their shadow, that sort of thing. So 141 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 1: there's there's obviously a lot of rich room for interpretation. 142 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: But then also just coming back to the linguistics of it, 143 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:02,560 Speaker 1: certainly when you get into translation. I know we were 144 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 1: looking around for possible shadow poems to read at the 145 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 1: top of this episode, and I was looking at some 146 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 1: Borges poems in translation, of course, and for instance, there's 147 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 1: one titled to the One who is Reading Me, which 148 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 1: is a nice haunting poem with a number of different 149 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 1: Borges sort of trademarks in it. But some translations will 150 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 1: use shadow and others will not, So you know, it 151 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 1: seems like a shadow. Maybe it is one of those 152 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 1: words that, like we've been saying, it refers to so 153 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 1: many things. It may be invoked in translation, even if 154 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:38,680 Speaker 1: that was perhaps not the author or the poet's original intent. 155 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 2: Well, coming back to the representation of shadows in our minds, 156 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 2: I dug up what I thought were a couple of 157 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 2: pretty interesting cognitive science papers about shadow consciousness. So the 158 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 2: first one I was looking at was a short paper 159 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 2: published in Trendsing Cognitive Sciences in two thousand and six 160 00:08:55,920 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 2: by Roberto Cassatti, an Italian professor. This paper is called 161 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 2: the Cognitive Science of Holes and Cast Shadows, and this 162 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 2: was published in two thousand and six. This paper asked 163 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 2: an interesting question. It was what can quasi objects or 164 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 2: negative objects such as shadows and holes tell us about 165 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:23,320 Speaker 2: how human brains perceive and understand physical objects. Of course, 166 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 2: holes and cast shadows are interesting because they are not 167 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 2: objects in themselves. They're actually just absences, in one case 168 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 2: the absence of solid physical substance and in the other 169 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 2: a relative absence of light. But despite the fact that 170 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:43,080 Speaker 2: things like holes and shadows are just absences, we intuitively 171 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 2: often think of them as substances in themselves. Kasati writes, quote, 172 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:52,680 Speaker 2: both holes and cast shadows are dependent features. They cannot 173 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 2: exist without objects hosting or casting them. Both shadows and 174 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 2: holes are somewhere between being regions of space and fully 175 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 2: fledged material objects. They are similar enough to bounded regions 176 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 2: of space that they have a location, a shape, a size, 177 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 2: and are as immaterial as space is, but are more 178 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 2: object like as they can persist over time and move. 179 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:21,360 Speaker 2: And I think it's this ambiguity between being an object 180 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 2: and not being an object that makes a shadow counterintuitive. 181 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 2: One example I've seen is people talking about the interesting 182 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:33,080 Speaker 2: fact that a shadow could technically move faster than the 183 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 2: speed of light. How would that be possible? The example 184 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 2: would often be given that like, if you have a 185 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:44,559 Speaker 2: source of light that you can project across the entire 186 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:47,080 Speaker 2: surface of a planet, maybe the surface of the moon, 187 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 2: and then you, standing right next to that source of light, 188 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 2: move your finger quickly in front of it, you could 189 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:58,200 Speaker 2: actually make your shadow travel across the surface of that 190 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:02,200 Speaker 2: distant object fast than light would be able to travel 191 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 2: if it were going from one side of that object 192 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:07,559 Speaker 2: to the other, though of course, nothing is actually traveling 193 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 2: in the case of how you're altering the shadow there. 194 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:13,320 Speaker 2: So it's not actually a violation of the laws of physics. 195 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 2: It's not any object going faster than the speed of light, 196 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 2: but is it is a change propagating through space in 197 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 2: some sense from our perspective, faster than the speed of light. 198 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 1: Interesting, So absence in a sense travels faster than anything material. 199 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:32,440 Speaker 2: So I wanted to bring up a couple things mentioned 200 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 2: in this paper that start me as interesting. One of 201 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 2: them is a reference to another paper published a couple 202 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 2: of years before this in the journal Perception called Impossible 203 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 2: Shadows and the Shadow Correspondence Problem by Pascal Mammasian published 204 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 2: in two thousand and four. And the background on this 205 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:55,680 Speaker 2: paper is the observation that we can and do use 206 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 2: shadows to estimate information about a scene. So we can 207 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 2: use shadows to infer properties of both the light source 208 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 2: where light is coming from and a scene we're looking 209 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 2: at and the object casting the shadow. But getting information 210 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 2: this way is not a computationally trivial task. It's actually 211 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 2: somewhat difficult Mamasian rights quote. In order to use that information, 212 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 2: our visual system has first to segment regions in the image, 213 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 2: decide that these regions are potential shadows rather than say 214 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:31,680 Speaker 2: ink blots, and then match these shadow candidates with objects 215 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:34,840 Speaker 2: in the scene. We call this last processing stage the 216 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:39,680 Speaker 2: shadow correspondence problem. It is reminiscent of the correspondence problem 217 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:44,080 Speaker 2: in stereopsis, and stereopsis is how the brain infers depth 218 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:47,080 Speaker 2: in our vision by comparing the images produced by our 219 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 2: two different eyes and then going on they say quote 220 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 2: or motion perception, where one has to match features between 221 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 2: the left and right images, or between consecutive frames of 222 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 2: a movie. So in inferring real accurate information about a 223 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 2: scene you're looking at in a photograph or in front 224 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 2: of you based on shadows is computationally intensive. We use 225 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:13,320 Speaker 2: shadows to get information, but it's a complex problem with 226 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 2: multiple variables, and it's taxing on the brain. And so 227 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 2: the author of this paper describes some experiments leading to 228 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 2: the conclusion that we actually only infer information from shadows 229 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 2: using a rough system. And one piece of evidence for 230 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 2: that is that people usually seemed not to notice when 231 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 2: projected shadows put in front of them were physically impossible. 232 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 2: Rob I'd like, I've got an illustration for you to 233 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 2: look at here that I pulled out of this paper. 234 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:45,320 Speaker 2: So there are a series of six objects shown that 235 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:49,079 Speaker 2: are there are ray white to sort of like pole 236 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 2: with an arm at the top, and then a shadow 237 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:55,319 Speaker 2: being cast by that object, and so you could try 238 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 2: to infer some information about where the source of light 239 00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 2: is is in relation to this object. But four of 240 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 2: these are possible shadows that could be cast by an 241 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 2: object of the shape, and two of them are impossible shadows. 242 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 1: Wow. So just looking at these six images here is 243 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 1: it is a little taxing. It can feel the mental 244 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 1: strain because you know, I'm instantly trying to imagine light 245 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 1: approaching the object from different directions at different angles. And 246 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 1: when I start sort of doing that three dimensional computation 247 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 1: in my head, I mean, it seems like all of 248 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 1: them are probable, Like none of them are really standing 249 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 1: out to me as necessarily impossible. I don't know, maybe gosh, 250 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe number two. Oh yeah, two is 251 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 1: the only one that I'm that I'm thinking is even 252 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 1: just a little bit suspect here. But yeah, this is 253 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 1: this is this is this is rough to think about. 254 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 2: You're in the same situation as most of the people 255 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 2: who participated in this experiment, So most of the shadows 256 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 2: given here are possible given the correct light source position, 257 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 2: but the two on the right side of the image 258 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 2: are impossible. If you look at them, you can see 259 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 2: that the arm of the figure is pointed the wrong 260 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 2: way in both of those cases. 261 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 1: Fascinating. I guess this is why I've always been so 262 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 1: forgiving too with video games, especially the ones where you 263 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 1: could choose whether you wanted complex shadows or just sort 264 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 1: of like the circle shadow. Like circle shadows good enough. 265 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 1: If I'm having any kind of system issues, let's just 266 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 1: go with this simple shadow. 267 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 2: That might be a good instinct. We'll get to some 268 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 2: reasoning about that in a second. So a couple of 269 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 2: these images are not possible shadows. But I think I 270 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 2: don't know. I already knew that I've read about it 271 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 2: before I looked at the image, so I can't really 272 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 2: know what my reaction would be. But you had the 273 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:51,200 Speaker 2: same reaction a lot of the people in the study did. 274 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 2: They just didn't notice. People seemed not to notice that 275 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:57,239 Speaker 2: these shadows were not possible. It had to be explained 276 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 2: to them afterwards by the experimenters, And so they used 277 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 2: these bits of impossible geometry to infer mundane information about 278 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 2: physical objects, space and light sources just like normal. So 279 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 2: in the end here the author says that this is 280 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 2: evidence that our brains use a quick mechanism or what 281 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 2: is called a quote coarse representation course meaning rough, to 282 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 2: solve the shadow correspondence problem. And another thing that gets 283 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 2: pointed out in the discussion is surrealist art that makes 284 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 2: use of impossible shadows. There is a painting called Indefinite 285 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 2: Divisibility by a painter named Eve Tongi. Again that's called 286 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:41,120 Speaker 2: Indefinite Divisibility if you want to look it up yourself. 287 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 2: It is a sort of dolliesque surreal painting with these 288 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 2: strange objects standing up in a landscape with very stark, 289 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 2: high contrast shadows that are falling long across the fading background. 290 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 2: So there seems to be a strong directionally oriented source 291 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 2: of light sort of where where the observer would be 292 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 2: casting these long shadows. But in this paper there is 293 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:08,359 Speaker 2: a zoom in and some lines you can see if 294 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 2: you scroll down in our outline here rob showing that 295 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 2: the shadows cast in this painting are again impossible. They 296 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 2: don't line up the way they would if there were 297 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:19,040 Speaker 2: actually a single consistent point of light. 298 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is fascinating. Yeah, once you start looking at 299 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 1: it and really comparing object to shadow, then yeah, you 300 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 1: start seeing hit the problems here. 301 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 2: And yet I wouldn't have noticed at all. So this 302 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:33,639 Speaker 2: raises a question like, were the impossible shadows in this 303 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:37,880 Speaker 2: painting included simply by accident because most people wouldn't notice, 304 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:41,879 Speaker 2: or is it an intended surreal effect to I don't know, 305 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:45,639 Speaker 2: reward careful study of the painting for you to realize like, 306 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 2: oh wait a minute, this is not physically possible. 307 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:51,480 Speaker 1: Hm, it's got to be the latter, right, I mean, 308 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 1: it seems like the amount of work that would go 309 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:57,399 Speaker 1: into a piece like this, and being a surrealist piece, 310 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 1: that would that would make sense to intentionally distory the shadows, 311 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:03,159 Speaker 1: even if it was done in such a way that 312 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:06,200 Speaker 1: many viewers of the painting would not notice. 313 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 2: Okay, so short story there. We do use shadows to 314 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 2: get relevant information about a scene we're looking at, but 315 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 2: we only look so close because we apparently do not 316 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 2: detect when when shadows violate the laws of physics or geometry. However, 317 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 2: coming back to that paper I mentioned by Kassati, shadows also, 318 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 2: in addition to providing relevant information, they also represent noise. 319 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 2: We might not think about this often, but in reality, 320 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:37,919 Speaker 2: it would be quite easy to mistake a shadow for 321 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:41,920 Speaker 2: a physical object or the outline of such to interpret, 322 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 2: to misinterpret a shadow falling across an object as a 323 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 2: contour on that object and the and Kassati points out 324 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:53,639 Speaker 2: this is one reason it is so difficult to represent 325 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 2: shadows in line drawings. So Kassati says, our brains deal 326 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,919 Speaker 2: with this noise threat by mostly tuning out shadows as 327 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:07,160 Speaker 2: visual representations unless we suddenly decide to focus on them. 328 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:10,200 Speaker 2: And that seemed very true to me. You know, we 329 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 2: see shadows all the time. We are constantly surrounded by shadows, 330 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:20,680 Speaker 2: but our brain sort of makes them cognitively invisible unless 331 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 2: we decide for some reason to focus on them. And 332 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 2: Cassatti calls this having quote limited conscious access to shadows. 333 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:31,919 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is fascinating. So there is data there in 334 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 1: the shadow, but there's just too much noise really to 335 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 1: depend on it too heavily, and there's ultimately better visual 336 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 1: and other sense data to go off of in any 337 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:43,880 Speaker 1: given situation that involves a shadow, I'm assuming. 338 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:47,399 Speaker 2: So yeah, I found that really interesting that as a 339 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:51,679 Speaker 2: form of visual information, shadows exist in this middle realm 340 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 2: where we can get useful information from them. But we're 341 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 2: never looking too close, or at least not naturally unless 342 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 2: we're like really forced, because a lot of times we 343 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:04,879 Speaker 2: don't even notice if the shadow is eldritch in nature, 344 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:08,120 Speaker 2: it's doing something geometry can't do or wouldn't be justified 345 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 2: by how light works. But secondarily, most of the time, 346 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 2: even though we're looking right at shadows, we don't see them. 347 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:17,440 Speaker 2: I mean, I'm literally looking right at shadows right now, 348 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 2: and I don't see them as shadows unless I notice 349 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 2: to look at the shadows there there. They don't. They 350 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:28,879 Speaker 2: don't I don't know strike my visual system as relevant, 351 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 2: and so I'm just like I tune them out. 352 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 1: That's interesting. Yeah, we kind of have shadow blindness to 353 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:38,640 Speaker 1: a large degree, which I guess makes it even more 354 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: fascinating to think that there might be other beings out 355 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 1: there who can see shadows in ways it can appreciate 356 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 1: shadows in ways that human beings cannot. I would like 357 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:06,400 Speaker 1: to at this point turn our attention to various fictional, legendary, folkloric, 358 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 1: and literary examples of shadowless wizards, demons, and vampires, and 359 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 1: much more. In the shadows that may or may not 360 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 1: be cast by these various individuals. So I've mentioned my 361 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:23,439 Speaker 1: fondness for the horror fantasy of Weird Tales era author 362 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:26,680 Speaker 1: Clark Ashton Smith before, and one of my all time 363 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 1: favorites is a short story titled The Double Shadow about 364 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:32,919 Speaker 1: a pair of wizards who unearthed ancient dark magic that 365 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:36,400 Speaker 1: in turn dooms them both to a horrible death. Smith's 366 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 1: own summary of the tale via eldrich Dark dot com, 367 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 1: which is a great website that has just all of 368 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 1: his writings available. This is how the author himself summarized it. Quote. 369 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: A man sees a monstrous shadow following his own and 370 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:53,480 Speaker 1: merging with it gradually day by day, while coincidentally with 371 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:56,920 Speaker 1: this merging, he loses his own entity and becomes possessed 372 00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 1: by an evil thing from unknown worlds in his personality. 373 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 1: The hideous invading spirit takes form and becomes manifest till 374 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:09,720 Speaker 1: his shadow is that which had followed him. And the 375 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:13,640 Speaker 1: story itself is very haunting and the ending is really awesome, 376 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 1: with the doomed Wizard, the last of the doomed wizards, 377 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:21,200 Speaker 1: writing his last personal testimony in a locked study, while 378 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 1: while this monstrous shadow crawls, ever closer closes as follows, So, 379 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 1: knowing that the time is brief, I have shut myself 380 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:33,919 Speaker 1: in the room of volumes and books and have written 381 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:37,400 Speaker 1: this account. And I have taken the bright triangular tablet, 382 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,640 Speaker 1: whose solution was our undoing, and have cast it from 383 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,639 Speaker 1: the window into the sea, hoping that none will find 384 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:46,880 Speaker 1: it after us. And now I must make an end 385 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 1: and enclose this writing in the sealed cylinder of our callum, 386 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:54,159 Speaker 1: and fling it forth to drift upon the wave. For 387 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:56,800 Speaker 1: the space between my shadow and the shadow of the 388 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: horror is strained momently, and the space is no wider 389 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:06,440 Speaker 1: than the thickness of a wizard's pen. Now, I had 390 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 1: long thought that this was mere fantastic invention on Smith's part, 391 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 1: And then that and it doesn't just detract it all 392 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 1: from the success of the story and the effect of 393 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 1: the story. But based on what I was reading in Brewers, 394 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:23,640 Speaker 1: it would seem that he may have based this detail 395 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:26,440 Speaker 1: on the the that that example of so called Eastern 396 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 1: origin this is. This is of course spectacularly vague and 397 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 1: hartly limits the search too much. It just means that 398 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 1: it must have originated outside of ancient Greece, Ancient Rome, 399 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 1: and European traditions. But the idea is explained in Brewers 400 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 1: is that wizards studying the Black Arts, after they reach 401 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 1: a certain advanced stage in their studies, are chased through 402 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:52,439 Speaker 1: a subterranean hall by the devil. I don't know if 403 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 1: this is supposed to be in real life or in 404 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 1: a dream, et cetera. But then the idea is, if 405 00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:01,480 Speaker 1: the devil catches you, while I guess, maybe you're done for. 406 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,920 Speaker 1: But if the devil catches only your shadow or part 407 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 1: of it, then you lose all over part of your shadow. 408 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 1: But in doing so, you become a first rate wizard, 409 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 1: and so therefore you might identify a wizard because the 410 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 1: wizard's shadow will be uncanny, It'll be incomplete to some extent, 411 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 1: or perhaps it will be missing altogether. 412 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:26,880 Speaker 2: Oh but I wonder if most people would notice that, 413 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:29,399 Speaker 2: since we often don't notice impossible shadows. 414 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 1: That's right, That's right. It's almost kind of a safe bet, right. 415 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 1: It's like, well, okay, if I lose part of my shadow, 416 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:39,439 Speaker 1: or even the whole thing, I'm probably gonna be all right. Besides, 417 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:43,120 Speaker 1: I have all these dark magical spells to fall back on. Now, 418 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 1: setting aside this vague claim of Eastern origins for a moment, 419 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:50,439 Speaker 1: we do see another variation of this idea in Icelandic traditions. 420 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:54,440 Speaker 1: And my source here is demonic magic in the Icelandic 421 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:58,239 Speaker 1: Wizard Legends by Mark Hanford. This was published in the 422 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 1: Scottish Society for North and Studies twenty nine back in 423 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety two. Now, Hanford's paper concerns a figure known 424 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 1: as Semond Sigfisen or Semond the Learned. This individual what 425 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:14,920 Speaker 1: was it was well to explain here was an historic individual. 426 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 1: This is someone who actually lived, but there are also 427 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:21,560 Speaker 1: various legends about them, legends in which they are described 428 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 1: as a golderman, a type of wizard that was distinct 429 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 1: from pagan slash evil magicians in early medieval Christian writings. 430 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:34,440 Speaker 2: Yes, because despite so many of the legends of him 431 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:39,119 Speaker 2: having to deal with interactions with the devil, Saman was 432 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:40,200 Speaker 2: a Christian priest. 433 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:46,440 Speaker 1: That's right, right, And apparently these goldermen were generally classified 434 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 1: as priests in addition to wizards. They're generally strong Christian 435 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:53,879 Speaker 1: elements in their stories. And Hanford writes that Salmond is 436 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 1: the earliest of the Icelandic wizards in this tradition. So 437 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 1: first of all, the real Seaman according to the various annals, 438 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,479 Speaker 1: Semon was born in ten fifty six and educated in France. 439 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 1: He returned to Iceland around ten seventy six, built a 440 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:11,159 Speaker 1: church in the south of Iceland, and then went on 441 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 1: to be very influential in ecclesiastical law and politics of 442 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 1: the day. So he was able to raise his own 443 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:20,960 Speaker 1: family's position in the country to a position of power 444 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 1: for many generations to come. He wrote important histories such 445 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 1: as the lost but off sited History of the Kings 446 00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:30,159 Speaker 1: of Norway. He died in eleven thirty three at the 447 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:34,480 Speaker 1: age of seventy seven, and yeah, that's the short version 448 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:37,919 Speaker 1: of the historical Semand. But he also takes on different 449 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 1: powers within the realm of icelandic legend. 450 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,360 Speaker 2: One of the many legends about Semund is that he 451 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:48,120 Speaker 2: was able to get control of his parish in southern 452 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,919 Speaker 2: Iceland because there were a group of I don't know, 453 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 2: learned men or candidates who were brought before the King 454 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 2: of Norway. King of Norway was like, okay, there's a 455 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 2: parish in Iceland in whichever one of you gets there 456 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:04,480 Speaker 2: first can have it. So Samond goes to the beach. 457 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:06,679 Speaker 2: He goes to the shore and he calls up the 458 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 2: devil and he says, okay, I need you to give 459 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 2: me a ride to Iceland without getting my coat tails wet. 460 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 2: And if you take me there without getting my coat 461 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:18,480 Speaker 2: tails wet, then you can have my soul. So the 462 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 2: devil transforms into a seal and let's uh, Samon ride 463 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:24,639 Speaker 2: him all the way to Iceland. They're almost there, but 464 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:28,639 Speaker 2: then the devil is outsmarted because Samond beats the seal 465 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,399 Speaker 2: the devil's seal on the head with the salter I 466 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 2: think either a Bible or as salter. The devil is 467 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 2: knocked unconscious and sinks under the water, and then of 468 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,480 Speaker 2: course the coattails get wet because he falls into the water. 469 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,879 Speaker 2: Therefore the pact is invalidated. So he outsmarted him with 470 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:47,240 Speaker 2: a good whack to the head. 471 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,520 Speaker 1: In this outlandish story really does sum up a lot 472 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:53,920 Speaker 1: of the character of Samon in these legends, because he's 473 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 1: nothing short of the ultimate demonic wizard in the classical 474 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:02,359 Speaker 1: Fostian sense. Yet, while FoST makes overall terrible deals with 475 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 1: the devil, they come back to plague him. Samond is 476 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:07,919 Speaker 1: essentially He's like a wise trickster who knows how to 477 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,440 Speaker 1: outwit the devil himself when it comes to various contracts. 478 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:13,359 Speaker 1: You know, that sort of out lawyer the devil, I 479 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 1: guess and even and as he goes on in legend, 480 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:20,720 Speaker 1: he's able to aid others in litigation of their own 481 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:23,640 Speaker 1: deals with the devil. So you got into a bad 482 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:25,720 Speaker 1: deal with the devil, well, maybe Salmon will be able 483 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,399 Speaker 1: to help you. The author here says quote Samon is 484 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 1: presented as an ambiguous character, one who uses diabolical means 485 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 1: to do good against the forces of evil. 486 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 2: Oh, he's like Christopher Lee and the devil rides out. 487 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 2: You know, he can know all the diabolical chants, he 488 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 2: can know all the occult tons because he's using them 489 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 2: for good. But simon, you can't know about them. 490 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 1: That's right, Yes, the holy Warlock figure here. Now, the 491 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 1: context for all of this actually brings us back to 492 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 1: something we were talking about earlier this month regarding necromancy, 493 00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 1: and that's clerical access to texts and tones that contain 494 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 1: forbidden knowledge regarding communication with demons and the sometimes acceptable 495 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 1: realm of astral magic magic concerning the stars. Astral magic 496 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 1: had been imported from the Arab world, so only learned 497 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 1: physicians and clergy members had access to such texts, with 498 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 1: the clergy especially having access to texts related to the 499 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,479 Speaker 1: command of demons for the purposes of exorcism, and as 500 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:29,959 Speaker 1: we touched on previously, it's members of the clergy who 501 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 1: were frequently accused of demonology or necromancy, or at least 502 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:38,600 Speaker 1: accused of possessing texts related to these alleged practices. It 503 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 1: was also Hanford stresses here an easy accusation to make 504 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 1: against clergy and physicians by their enemies and or those 505 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:49,000 Speaker 1: jealous of their success. So you don't like a given 506 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 1: guy who's way up in the clergy, especially one who's 507 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 1: like Samond, foreign educated, Well you just say, well, of 508 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 1: course he's successful. He's a wizard. 509 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 2: He's doing deals with the devil, right. 510 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 1: And then you know, maybe people are jumping to their 511 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 1: defense and saying, well, Samon is doing a lot of 512 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 1: great work if he if he made a deal with 513 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 1: the devil, I guess he knows what he's doing. Yeah, 514 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 1: but that doesn't mean you should make a deal with 515 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 1: the devil. Leave it to to to individuals like saman 516 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 1: to pull it off. 517 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 2: But you know, one of the really interesting legendary motifs 518 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:25,640 Speaker 2: about Saman to the learned is the idea of him 519 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 2: essentially going to devil school. 520 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, again he was. He's foreign educated, educated in France, 521 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 1: and realistically he would have learned about pagan history, he 522 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 1: would have learned about mathematics, astrology, and theology. But Hanford 523 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,160 Speaker 1: writes that, you know, this gets all stretched in the 524 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 1: popular imagination and it becomes the version that becomes kind 525 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,480 Speaker 1: of the folkloric canon. Is that? And then this was 526 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:59,240 Speaker 1: later recorded in i think seventeenth century by Arnie Magnuson 527 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,720 Speaker 1: in the States that Samon was educated at the Black School, 528 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:08,680 Speaker 1: which is of course a school of dark wizardry, and 529 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,400 Speaker 1: at the end of one studies there, the devil would 530 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:13,880 Speaker 1: claim the soul of the last student to leave. 531 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 2: This setting is not unique to stories about this guy's life. 532 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,240 Speaker 2: By the way, there is a more common folk story 533 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:25,240 Speaker 2: motif about the Scholomance or the school of the Devil, 534 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 2: which is in some sense a college where people go 535 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 2: to learn mystical evil magic powers. They are instructed by 536 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 2: the devil, or maybe not by the devil, maybe they 537 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 2: just got to go to this place and there's lots 538 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 2: of books of forbidden knowledge there. But yes, the devil 539 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,360 Speaker 2: will claim at least one of the students of each 540 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,120 Speaker 2: class there to be his personal servant. 541 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I like it's kind of the last person 542 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:51,800 Speaker 1: to leave, which I kind of interpreted as being like 543 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:56,040 Speaker 1: the most studious of the children, or not children. I 544 00:31:56,040 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 1: guess the students, the most studious, the biggest lizardry nerd 545 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:03,720 Speaker 1: on campus, that will be the one that the devil 546 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:08,760 Speaker 1: hand selects. So anyway, Salmon was very studious and he 547 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 1: was often the last to leave, And I guess this 548 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:13,720 Speaker 1: was known about him because even back home in Iceland, 549 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 1: they realized this kid is going to get the devil 550 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,600 Speaker 1: on him if someone doesn't help him out. And so 551 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 1: that's where Iceland's Bishop John Augmundsen decides to jump in 552 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 1: and help him out. He rushes there, he's there to 553 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:30,720 Speaker 1: help him out of the building, throws his coat over 554 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 1: Salmon's back. As he leaves, the devil reaches out for 555 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 1: him and snatches the coat instead of Salmon's soul. So 556 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 1: this is how does this relate to Shadows. Well, we'll 557 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,720 Speaker 1: get there, but in this particular telling, the devil wasn't 558 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,719 Speaker 1: done though. He proclaimed that he had three days to 559 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 1: claim Salmon's soul, so Salmon had to hide himself. He 560 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,760 Speaker 1: hit himself three times in a riverbank, in a boat 561 00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 1: at sea, and buried under a consecrated earth in a churchyard. 562 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 1: And these tactics work, and the devil was thwarted. The 563 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,000 Speaker 1: idea being that like, where is he, Well, I'm getting 564 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,920 Speaker 1: a sense that he's he's he's out here at sea. 565 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,240 Speaker 1: He must have he must have drowned, or I get 566 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 1: the sense that he's under the earth. He must be dead, 567 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,560 Speaker 1: And so he's able to thwart the devil and avoid 568 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:18,480 Speaker 1: having his soul claimed. 569 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 2: The way I understood this. This was also connected to 570 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,760 Speaker 2: similar folk tales that weren't directly about the devil, but 571 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:29,240 Speaker 2: were about some kind of a master of astral magic, 572 00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 2: somebody who was like a wicked astrologer who wanted to 573 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:38,240 Speaker 2: capture his student, and the student would evade him by like, yeah, 574 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:41,720 Speaker 2: so he would get his feet wet on the first day, 575 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 2: and so the astrologer would consult the stars and see 576 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,080 Speaker 2: that he was wet and be like, oh, okay, he 577 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:50,080 Speaker 2: is drowned. And then another day he does something else 578 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:51,960 Speaker 2: to his body, like he puts blood on his feet 579 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:54,479 Speaker 2: or something. And then the astrologer consults the stars that 580 00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:57,560 Speaker 2: day and sees blood and thinks that he has been killed, 581 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,360 Speaker 2: and then yeah, I guess the consecrated earth. The astrologer 582 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:03,800 Speaker 2: consults the stars and finds Ah, he is buried, so 583 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 2: I can no longer claim him. 584 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:09,799 Speaker 1: Right right now. In other versions of this story, though, 585 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:13,040 Speaker 1: it's not Salmond or the bishop's coat that is snatched 586 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:16,960 Speaker 1: by the devil, but Salmon's shadow, thus removing him of 587 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:20,719 Speaker 1: a shadow for the remainder of his life. So here 588 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,279 Speaker 1: we get back to this idea of wizards being chased 589 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,160 Speaker 1: around by the devil, having part of or their entire 590 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:30,160 Speaker 1: shadow snatched away, and thus being powerful and having all 591 00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:32,360 Speaker 1: of this forbidden knowledge, being able to use it, but 592 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 1: being deprived of something that may or may not be important, 593 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:38,920 Speaker 1: as we'll get into the shadow. 594 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 2: One version of the story I came across was Samond 595 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,320 Speaker 2: using trickery. Actually, so he's the last student. He's trying 596 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:49,440 Speaker 2: to get out of the Devil's college, and the devil 597 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:51,520 Speaker 2: tries to reach out and claim him, but he says, 598 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:53,759 Speaker 2: wait a minute, no, I'm not the last. There is 599 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,400 Speaker 2: one more student still there, and he points to his 600 00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:59,680 Speaker 2: shadow cast on the wall. So the devil reaches out 601 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 2: to ground that and snatches his shadow away from him 602 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,520 Speaker 2: as he bodily makes his escape, but no longer with 603 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:06,600 Speaker 2: his shadow intact. 604 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:09,800 Speaker 1: That version is good too. I like that. So Hanford 605 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,440 Speaker 1: writes that this escape from the Black School trope is 606 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:15,279 Speaker 1: a migratory legend, one that is largely unchanged over the 607 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,439 Speaker 1: centuries and pops up in different contexts. And the same 608 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 1: can be said for what is known on the the 609 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 1: Arnie Thompson Index of Folktale Types as tail type three 610 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 1: twenty nine. A man gives or sells his shadow to 611 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 1: the devil. 612 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:31,960 Speaker 2: Unfortunately, I think Hanford says, there's not a lot of 613 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:35,360 Speaker 2: detail on that index type, and I wish there was. 614 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, I had to look around. I found an Irish 615 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,400 Speaker 1: or Irish American tale that reflects this trope. This was 616 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 1: recorded in nineteen seventy by Ruth and Music in Green 617 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:48,759 Speaker 1: Hills of Magic, West Virginia. Folk tales from Europe, and 618 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:51,319 Speaker 1: in this telling, you have a despondent man who's about 619 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:54,399 Speaker 1: to jump from a bridge when a stranger guess what it's. 620 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:58,719 Speaker 1: The devil arrives and says, hey, I'll buy that shadow off. 621 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:00,719 Speaker 1: Of you, and the man's like, what are you going 622 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:02,440 Speaker 1: to give me for it? And he'll said, he says, well, 623 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:05,279 Speaker 1: i'll give you. I'll give you all the gold you'll 624 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:07,600 Speaker 1: ever need. And he's like, well, that sounds like a 625 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:09,920 Speaker 1: good deal. I wasn't using my shadow. I was about 626 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:12,719 Speaker 1: to really not be using it for anything. And so 627 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:14,560 Speaker 1: the he agrees to this, and the Devil gives him 628 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:18,279 Speaker 1: a magic purse that always has coins in it. So 629 00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:21,920 Speaker 1: this seems like a great deal. But then the townsfolk 630 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:26,280 Speaker 1: become suspicious of the fact that this guy always has money, 631 00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:29,239 Speaker 1: and they also begin to notice, hey, he does not 632 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:31,720 Speaker 1: have a shadow, and so they throw him in prison 633 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:34,839 Speaker 1: I'm not sure on what charges exactly, and he dies there. 634 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:36,799 Speaker 2: I thought this was going to take a different turn 635 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:38,760 Speaker 2: where he was going to give him all the gold 636 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:40,960 Speaker 2: he'd ever need and then just push him from the bridge, 637 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:42,800 Speaker 2: because once he's dead, he doesn't need gold. 638 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:45,799 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean that's the thing about deals with 639 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 1: the Devil. Yeah, I guess. I guess they tend to 640 00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:52,040 Speaker 1: take on the sort of lawful evil character right where 641 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 1: there's some term, there's some detail in the contract. But yeah, 642 00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,239 Speaker 1: I could have seen it going that darker direction as well. 643 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,359 Speaker 2: I guess what kind of moral failing on the part 644 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:04,439 Speaker 2: of the protagonist do you want to emphasize in those 645 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,400 Speaker 2: kind of stories. It's inattention to detail, it's failure to 646 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:10,200 Speaker 2: read the fine print on the contract. On this it 647 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:15,040 Speaker 2: seems more like an inability to understand that suddenly being 648 00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:18,680 Speaker 2: rich but also having something missing of your person will 649 00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:20,359 Speaker 2: be noticed by people around you. 650 00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:24,560 Speaker 1: This trope is also reflected in the marvelous Tale of 651 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:29,000 Speaker 1: Peter Schimmel from eighteen forty three by Adalbert von Camisso, 652 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:32,880 Speaker 1: which concerns another despondent young man who also sells his 653 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:36,160 Speaker 1: shadow to the devil, and also sells it for a 654 00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:39,240 Speaker 1: bottomless wallet. But in this story he ends up wandering 655 00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:42,759 Speaker 1: the earth and depends, and it spends the rest of 656 00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:45,680 Speaker 1: his doomed life. Is kind of a holy fool attempting 657 00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:50,000 Speaker 1: to reconnect with nature. Interestingly enough, DeForest Kelly of Star 658 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:52,640 Speaker 1: Trek Fame played this character in a nineteen fifty three 659 00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:56,240 Speaker 1: episode of the anthology series Your Favorite Story, an episode 660 00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,120 Speaker 1: titled The Man Who Sold His Shadow. Now, this trope 661 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:02,640 Speaker 1: pops up places as well, probably the most noticeable and 662 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:04,960 Speaker 1: one that a number of you are already thinking of 663 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,239 Speaker 1: would be Peter Pan. You might remember this, especially from 664 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 1: the Disney animated adaptation of Old Peter. Pan is nearly 665 00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 1: caught in Wendy's house and his shadow is ripped off 666 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:18,120 Speaker 1: in the escape, and later they have to stick it 667 00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:19,640 Speaker 1: back down, or they try to stick it back down 668 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,000 Speaker 1: with like soap and stuff. It doesn't work, they have 669 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:22,960 Speaker 1: to sew it back on. 670 00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:25,640 Speaker 2: It is a mischievous, fairy like shadow. 671 00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:31,120 Speaker 1: Yes. Now, as for those supposed Eastern influences on the idea, 672 00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:34,479 Speaker 1: I wasn't able to find out anything really solid here, 673 00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:36,920 Speaker 1: though I was looking at a few different sources. I 674 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:41,320 Speaker 1: found a book titled Folk Traditions of the Arab World, 675 00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:45,560 Speaker 1: A Guide to Motif Classification, Volume two by Hassan m 676 00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:49,040 Speaker 1: el Shami, and the author does mention, at least in 677 00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:53,080 Speaker 1: passing that one quality of demons is that they cast 678 00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:57,520 Speaker 1: no shadows. And I also was reading in Commanding Demons 679 00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:01,200 Speaker 1: in Gin the Sorcerer in Early Islamic Thought by Travis 680 00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:06,640 Speaker 1: Zeta that eleventh century Islamic author Abu al Fado Mohammad 681 00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:09,640 Speaker 1: al Tabasi wrote in a book on Devil's in Gin 682 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:13,319 Speaker 1: that Gin could be revealed by their shadows and by 683 00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:16,319 Speaker 1: their shadows only as then, like you couldn't see the 684 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:18,000 Speaker 1: rest of them, but you could see the shadow of 685 00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:18,399 Speaker 1: the gin. 686 00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:19,400 Speaker 2: Interesting. 687 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,040 Speaker 1: So these two ideas are of course rather opposite from 688 00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:23,920 Speaker 1: one another, and may well speak, you know, of different 689 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:27,919 Speaker 1: traditions and times. We're casting a large umbrella here over 690 00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:30,760 Speaker 1: the concept. But they both do get at the idea 691 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,720 Speaker 1: of a shadow, or the lack thereof, is something key 692 00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:37,160 Speaker 1: to an entity that doesn't completely fit into the human 693 00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:50,480 Speaker 1: world or into human perception. And this brings us to 694 00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:55,360 Speaker 1: the world of vampires. Ah okay, So I think a 695 00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:58,359 Speaker 1: lot of you are probably up on the fact that 696 00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:01,240 Speaker 1: in many tales, at least the vampires have no reflection 697 00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:03,719 Speaker 1: in a mirror. That's a classic trope. It's one that's 698 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:09,040 Speaker 1: easy to visually represent in even a lower budget vampire film. 699 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:13,360 Speaker 2: Yes, Gary Oldman comes across Keanu shaving, he hisses like 700 00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:15,640 Speaker 2: a snake at the mirror and it shatters. 701 00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:19,480 Speaker 1: Yep. Yeah, But at least in some tellings the vampire 702 00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:23,279 Speaker 1: also casts no shadow, and this is actually referenced in 703 00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:26,800 Speaker 1: we've already referred to it here, the most influential vampire 704 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:31,000 Speaker 1: novel of all time, Bram Stoker's Dracula, I'll read a 705 00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:35,560 Speaker 1: bit from it here where this is specifically discussed quote. 706 00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:39,000 Speaker 1: I was not alone. The room was the same, unchanged 707 00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:41,200 Speaker 1: in any way since I came into it. I could 708 00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:43,960 Speaker 1: see along the floor in the brilliant moonlight, my own 709 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:47,239 Speaker 1: footsteps marked where I had disturbed the long accumulation of 710 00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:50,320 Speaker 1: dust in the moonlight. Opposite me were three young women, 711 00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:53,200 Speaker 1: ladies by their dress and manner. I thought at the 712 00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:55,719 Speaker 1: time that I must be dreaming when I saw them, 713 00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:59,000 Speaker 1: for though the moonlight was behind them, they threw no 714 00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:02,200 Speaker 1: shadow on the floor. They came close to me and 715 00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:05,000 Speaker 1: looked at me for some time, and then whispered together. 716 00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:10,400 Speaker 1: Two or dark and had high aquiland noses like the Count, 717 00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:13,400 Speaker 1: and great dark piercing eyes that seem to be almost 718 00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:17,520 Speaker 1: red when contrasted with the pale yellow moon. These are, 719 00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:23,120 Speaker 1: of course the brides of Dracula, the three female vampires 720 00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:25,919 Speaker 1: that serve him in the book and then various adaptations 721 00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:29,319 Speaker 1: of the book. But then elsewhere in the Book of 722 00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:33,200 Speaker 1: Dracula himself, it is written he throws no shadow, He 723 00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:36,640 Speaker 1: makes in the mirror no reflect as again Jonathan observed. 724 00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:40,120 Speaker 1: Though the Prince of Darkness himself also tells Jonathan I 725 00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:41,840 Speaker 1: love the shade and the shadow. 726 00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:44,279 Speaker 2: Well, maybe you love to be in the shade if 727 00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:46,439 Speaker 2: you can make none with your own body. 728 00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:49,120 Speaker 1: Maybe so all right, So we have this idea of 729 00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:53,799 Speaker 1: the vampire, which, if you're not familiar, is a monstrous 730 00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:57,560 Speaker 1: and cursed and corrupted, undead thing that was once human 731 00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:00,680 Speaker 1: but has lost all humanity, and it is because nothing 732 00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:06,200 Speaker 1: but supernatural hunger and cruelty and horror, at least in 733 00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:08,560 Speaker 1: some tellings of it is the thing that no longer 734 00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:12,480 Speaker 1: casts a shadow. And then we have other variations of this. 735 00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:16,080 Speaker 1: We've talked about wizards losing their shadows, of sort of 736 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:19,520 Speaker 1: fairy folk losing their shadows, and literary traditions. But then 737 00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:23,760 Speaker 1: there are also related concepts like the portrait of Dorian Gray, 738 00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:25,719 Speaker 1: in which you don't have a shadow, you have a 739 00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:31,520 Speaker 1: painting of an individual, and that representation also has some 740 00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:35,040 Speaker 1: sort of connection to the state of their soul. And 741 00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:38,600 Speaker 1: so these various literary treatments especially would seem to be linked. 742 00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:41,239 Speaker 1: And I found a really cool source on this. This 743 00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:45,640 Speaker 1: is titled Vampires, Demons, and the Disappearing Shadow in Folkloric 744 00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:49,760 Speaker 1: Fictions of the Long nineteenth Century by Sam M. George, 745 00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:54,480 Speaker 1: published in a twenty twenty edition of Gothic Studies. Now, Dracula, 746 00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:57,160 Speaker 1: of course, was the work of an Irish author, and 747 00:42:57,239 --> 00:43:00,680 Speaker 1: as I believe we've discussed in the show previously, invokes 748 00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:06,520 Speaker 1: various Irish folklore ideas concerning the undead, perhaps in any 749 00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:12,080 Speaker 1: ways more than anything that Bromstoker actually absorbed from European traditions. 750 00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:17,280 Speaker 1: But George Wrights of Dracula there may be some links 751 00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:22,360 Speaker 1: to actual Romani folkloric beliefs that a vampire was a 752 00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:25,319 Speaker 1: person's shadow, for example, and that there was also a 753 00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:29,600 Speaker 1: practice of shadow traders who quote traded shadows to architects 754 00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:32,560 Speaker 1: who attempted to secure and wall up a person's shadow 755 00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:35,960 Speaker 1: to ensure that their buildings were durable, with the result 756 00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:39,080 Speaker 1: that after death that person would become a vampire. 757 00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:41,640 Speaker 2: WHOA, I don't think I've ever heard of this. 758 00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:44,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, this was new to me, and I think there 759 00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:48,600 Speaker 1: may be sprinklings of this tradition spread elsewhere in European 760 00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:51,279 Speaker 1: traditions as well. We may come back to that, But 761 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:54,120 Speaker 1: what George ultimately argues is that this means that yes, 762 00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:59,439 Speaker 1: Dracula and his spawn are all soulless. They have no souls. Again, 763 00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:01,919 Speaker 1: they've lost every shred of their humanity, and in doing 764 00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:03,920 Speaker 1: so they have also lost that shadow. 765 00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:06,800 Speaker 2: Well, it may be a coincidence, but I mean, obviously 766 00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:09,640 Speaker 2: this has the at least superficial connection to the idea 767 00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:14,600 Speaker 2: of Greek conceptions of disembodied souls as shades or shadows. 768 00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:19,840 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, Now where it gets really interesting with George's 769 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:23,239 Speaker 1: article is that she references J. G. Fraser's The Golden Bough, 770 00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:26,239 Speaker 1: the first volume of which I believe came out in 771 00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:28,560 Speaker 1: eighteen ninety, and so it would have lined up with 772 00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:31,759 Speaker 1: the writing of Dracula and some of the other writers 773 00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:35,480 Speaker 1: and other works that invoke similar ideas of shadow or 774 00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:40,440 Speaker 1: reflection or painting. Fraser writes of traditional belief systems in 775 00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:43,720 Speaker 1: which the individual quote often regards his shadow or reflection 776 00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:46,560 Speaker 1: as his soul, or at all events, as a vital 777 00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:49,720 Speaker 1: part of himself, and as such it is a source 778 00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:53,080 Speaker 1: of danger to him, for if it is trampled upon, struck, 779 00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:55,440 Speaker 1: or stabbed, he will feel the injury as if it 780 00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:58,280 Speaker 1: were done to his person. And if it is detached 781 00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:00,920 Speaker 1: from him entirely, as he BELI leaves that it may be, 782 00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:05,279 Speaker 1: he will die. And then elsewhere Fraser's writes, as with 783 00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:08,960 Speaker 1: shadows and reflections. So with portraits, they are often believed 784 00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:11,719 Speaker 1: to contain the soul of the person portrayed. People who 785 00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:15,280 Speaker 1: hold this belief are naturally loath to have their likeness 786 00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:17,840 Speaker 1: taken for if the portrait is the soul or at 787 00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:21,400 Speaker 1: least a vital part of the person portrayed, whoever possesses 788 00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:24,600 Speaker 1: the portrait will be able to exercise fatal influence over 789 00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:25,640 Speaker 1: the original of it. 790 00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:29,560 Speaker 2: Oh okay, So this connects to a big theme that 791 00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:33,040 Speaker 2: Fraser propounds in The Golden Bough. The Golden Bough is 792 00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:38,880 Speaker 2: an early attempt at sort of anthropologically categorizing the different 793 00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:44,239 Speaker 2: religious practices all around the world, and Fraser characterizes a 794 00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:48,080 Speaker 2: lot of it as sympathetic magic, the idea that you 795 00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:51,279 Speaker 2: would have an object that is, by connection of some 796 00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:57,640 Speaker 2: sort associated with a person, and that connection or association 797 00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:01,719 Speaker 2: can be exploited for magical purposes to have influence over 798 00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:02,240 Speaker 2: the person. 799 00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:06,959 Speaker 1: Yes, Yes, and again George brings us up, though not 800 00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:09,400 Speaker 1: not to argue at all that like, okay, Fraser is 801 00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:11,920 Speaker 1: the authority on all of this. But again, this book 802 00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:14,319 Speaker 1: would have come out at just the right time, and 803 00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:18,440 Speaker 1: the book was a popular book. But also, she writes, 804 00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:23,680 Speaker 1: would have had a certain amount of I wouldn't say 805 00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:26,239 Speaker 1: maybe not a taboo quality to it, but there was 806 00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:27,800 Speaker 1: kind of like a sense of like, oh, hey, this 807 00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:30,120 Speaker 1: is hidden knowledge, this is this is the good stuff. 808 00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:33,400 Speaker 1: And if you want insight into how perhaps monsters and 809 00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:36,160 Speaker 1: supernatural relationships work, well, this is a book you might 810 00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:36,839 Speaker 1: well pick up. 811 00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:39,680 Speaker 2: Oh, I think it was controversial when it came out. 812 00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:42,480 Speaker 2: What was it was a very hot book. A lot 813 00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:44,719 Speaker 2: of people were very excited about it. But it also, 814 00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:49,480 Speaker 2: for example, set Christian practices in comparison to a lot 815 00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:52,839 Speaker 2: of other religious practices around the world, which scandalized many 816 00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:53,960 Speaker 2: conservative Christians. 817 00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:56,880 Speaker 1: M yeah, yeah, I can imagine that like that added 818 00:46:56,920 --> 00:47:01,960 Speaker 1: context could be interpreted dangerous to one's own worldview and 819 00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:02,760 Speaker 1: belief systems. 820 00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:06,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, our religion is not like all the other religions now. 821 00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:12,279 Speaker 1: George also connects this to Lavatar's theory of physiognomy, which 822 00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:16,319 Speaker 1: is more directly a pseudoscientific face reading practice, something that 823 00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:19,160 Speaker 1: traces back to the ancient world, but something that then 824 00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:22,520 Speaker 1: would there would be a resurgence of in medieval and 825 00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:27,280 Speaker 1: Renaissance thought. Renaissance thought and then utilized by Swiss pastor 826 00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:30,880 Speaker 1: Johann Caspar Lavatar, who lives seventeen forty one through eighteen 827 00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:35,040 Speaker 1: oh one, and Lavatar argued that the shadow or silhouette 828 00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:38,680 Speaker 1: more specifically, I think could be used to understand a 829 00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:42,320 Speaker 1: person's character. And I guess you could compare this easily 830 00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:46,800 Speaker 1: to things like, you know, alleged aura readings and so forth. 831 00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:50,200 Speaker 1: You get into a pseudo scientific idea that like, Okay, 832 00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:53,680 Speaker 1: well here's here is the silhouette, here's the shadow. This 833 00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:57,399 Speaker 1: is information about the physical person. But also we can 834 00:47:57,440 --> 00:47:59,080 Speaker 1: then if we know what we're doing, we can read that, 835 00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:02,720 Speaker 1: and we can we can make all sorts of judgment 836 00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:05,880 Speaker 1: calls about, you know, their inner character. 837 00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:08,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think in the eighteenth and nineteenth century 838 00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:15,600 Speaker 2: to some extent, physiognomy or physiognomy had some false scientific cachet, 839 00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:19,480 Speaker 2: much like phrenology did. Like it's considered a pseudoscience now, 840 00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:21,399 Speaker 2: but I think there were some people at the time 841 00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:23,680 Speaker 2: who thought, oh, yeah, this is part of the new learning. 842 00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:27,440 Speaker 2: You know, we can study actually the way you are shaped, 843 00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:29,560 Speaker 2: or the way your face looks, or the bumps on 844 00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:31,839 Speaker 2: your head, and these will tell us whether or not 845 00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:32,640 Speaker 2: you're a criminal. 846 00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:37,640 Speaker 1: So, citing David Glover's Vampires, Mummies and Liberals, bram Stoker 847 00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:40,520 Speaker 1: and the Politics of Popular Fiction. George notes that quote, 848 00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:45,279 Speaker 1: without his shadow or mirror image, Dracula becomes physiognomy's true 849 00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:48,600 Speaker 1: vanishing point, a profoundly unsettling figure. 850 00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:54,879 Speaker 2: No data. Yeah, that's funny. I like that. 851 00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:59,880 Speaker 1: So Dracula is just pure physical existence in hunger, no soul, 852 00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:03,520 Speaker 1: no spirit, no depth beyond the immediate and all consuming 853 00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:07,480 Speaker 1: thirst for blood. And of course, as Dracula resonates through 854 00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:11,480 Speaker 1: cinematic traditions, the shadow also becomes important, not so much 855 00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:15,480 Speaker 1: in its absence but in its perversion, as seen especially 856 00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:18,879 Speaker 1: in nineteen twenty two's nos Veratu and also coming back 857 00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:22,840 Speaker 1: to Francis Ford Coppolo's nineteen ninety two adaptation of Dracula, 858 00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:27,240 Speaker 1: we see the shadow of Dracula like reaching out and 859 00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:31,600 Speaker 1: seeming to either act independently of the Prince of Darkness 860 00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:35,360 Speaker 1: or to sort of telegraph his intense and hunger, like 861 00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:38,320 Speaker 1: his hunger is so intense that the shadow is reaching 862 00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:40,279 Speaker 1: out to grasp Jonathan's neck. 863 00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:45,000 Speaker 2: By chance, I just happened to rewatch bram Stoker's Dracula, 864 00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:49,080 Speaker 2: the Copola version from ninety two, and oh man, that 865 00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:51,359 Speaker 2: movie is so much fun. I don't know exactly how 866 00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:53,359 Speaker 2: it was reviewed at the time it came out, but 867 00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:57,560 Speaker 2: it is a hoot. Gary Oldman is just wonderful and 868 00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:01,359 Speaker 2: I love all of the shadow play scenes. You're exactly right. 869 00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:03,920 Speaker 2: It's not that he doesn't have a shadow, it's that 870 00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:07,640 Speaker 2: he has the wrong shadow. And I guess this comes 871 00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:10,480 Speaker 2: back to what we were talking about with impossible shadows. 872 00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:14,520 Speaker 2: There are multiple moments in the scene where like Keanu 873 00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:18,920 Speaker 2: Reeves is in Dracula's castle and he looks where Dracula's 874 00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:21,640 Speaker 2: shadow is, but Dracula's body is not there, and he 875 00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:23,960 Speaker 2: turns around and he's on the other side of him, 876 00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:25,960 Speaker 2: not where his shadow was. But he just kind of 877 00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:30,400 Speaker 2: shrugs it off, and that seems funny, as in the 878 00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:32,000 Speaker 2: same way that a lot of things in the movie 879 00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:34,279 Speaker 2: seem funny with him just kind of I don't know, 880 00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:37,480 Speaker 2: ignoring very strange things going on at this castle where 881 00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:40,040 Speaker 2: I guess he really wants to close that real estate deal. 882 00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:44,000 Speaker 2: Always be closing Jonathan Harker. But now that I've read 883 00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:46,080 Speaker 2: this paper, it's like, well, I wonder if you would, 884 00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:50,400 Speaker 2: you know, in real time, see a totally impossible shadow 885 00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:52,919 Speaker 2: and not realize it would just kind of like you'd 886 00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:54,640 Speaker 2: be blind to it. It would just kind of go 887 00:50:54,719 --> 00:50:57,200 Speaker 2: into your mind and go out unrecognized. 888 00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:01,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, it would be just super scie by the visual 889 00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:04,640 Speaker 1: information of the Count's body. Like whatever was weird and 890 00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:06,959 Speaker 1: uncanny about the shadow, It's like, oh, well, never mind 891 00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:09,040 Speaker 1: that there's the body. This is what we go on 892 00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:09,920 Speaker 1: as human beings. 893 00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:12,040 Speaker 2: Of course, I don't know that's what would happen and 894 00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:14,759 Speaker 2: if this were real life, but I don't know. It 895 00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:16,080 Speaker 2: seems more plausible now. 896 00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:19,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, and again, Dracula is a being of shadows, so 897 00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:23,840 Speaker 1: I like this. Whether he casts a shadow or not, 898 00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:27,640 Speaker 1: he has some sort of strange relationship with shadows, either 899 00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:31,759 Speaker 1: you know, casting distorted shadows, manipulating shadows, or having no 900 00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:34,160 Speaker 1: shadow at all. It all kind of gets around to 901 00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:37,640 Speaker 1: the same idea that this is a creature out of 902 00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:40,120 Speaker 1: step or out of place in the natural world. 903 00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:40,360 Speaker 3: You know. 904 00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:43,200 Speaker 1: Coming back to Francis fort Copplo's Dracula for just a 905 00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:47,120 Speaker 1: second though. I was thinking about it in writing the 906 00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:50,279 Speaker 1: notes for this episode, but also in watching one of 907 00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:53,440 Speaker 1: the Christopher Lee Dracula films, which we're going to be 908 00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:56,000 Speaker 1: talking about in Weird House Cinema. This week, and I 909 00:51:56,080 --> 00:51:59,280 Speaker 1: momentarily had the thought, it's a shame that Gary Oldman, 910 00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:02,239 Speaker 1: such a great actor and such a great Dracula, only 911 00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:05,920 Speaker 1: got to play Dracula once, whereas Christopher Lee got to 912 00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:08,480 Speaker 1: play him so many times. But then I corrected myself 913 00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:12,239 Speaker 1: and realized, no, Gary Oldman doesn't play one Dracula in 914 00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:14,640 Speaker 1: this film. He plays multiple Draculas. 915 00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:15,279 Speaker 2: That's true. 916 00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:18,520 Speaker 1: Each Dracula has a different, slightly different feel and different 917 00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:20,239 Speaker 1: visual presentation. 918 00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:24,480 Speaker 2: He's got the earthly count VLab from the prologue where 919 00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:27,120 Speaker 2: like he stabs the cross and renounces God, and I 920 00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:29,440 Speaker 2: guess that's how he becomes a vampire in the story. 921 00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:33,960 Speaker 2: He's old Grandma, Gary oldman with the butt hair. He's young, 922 00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:37,480 Speaker 2: sexy Gary oldman with the purple sunglasses in London. He's 923 00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:38,640 Speaker 2: a lot of vampires. 924 00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:42,240 Speaker 1: He's Wolf, he's bat. We also get the later version 925 00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:45,279 Speaker 1: of the old account where he has instead of the 926 00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:48,719 Speaker 1: hair being up, it's all slipped back and long. Oh yeah, 927 00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:50,920 Speaker 1: so yeah there, and I maybe forgetting one or two 928 00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:53,680 Speaker 1: in the mix. So he ultimately did a whole franchise 929 00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:56,240 Speaker 1: is worth of Dracula's in just the one picture. 930 00:52:56,640 --> 00:52:59,520 Speaker 2: The ninety two Dracula is far from perfect. I would 931 00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:03,719 Speaker 2: say it is a weird in great ways and in 932 00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:06,600 Speaker 2: not so great ways. It's it's flawed, some parts of 933 00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:09,640 Speaker 2: it kind of dragged, But it is really really worth 934 00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:12,080 Speaker 2: watching just for how amazing Gary Oldman is. 935 00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:13,040 Speaker 1: Yes. 936 00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:15,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, and there are other great things too, great sets, 937 00:53:15,560 --> 00:53:17,799 Speaker 2: and some other performances that are a lot of fun. 938 00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:21,839 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, a lot of great performances, great costumes, 939 00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:27,600 Speaker 1: great blood, great monsters. And yeah, and Oldman's performance is perfect. 940 00:53:27,760 --> 00:53:30,319 Speaker 1: I think I read somewhere that he mainly agreed to 941 00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:32,520 Speaker 1: do it because he wanted to work with Francis Ford Coppola. 942 00:53:32,719 --> 00:53:34,760 Speaker 1: But then also he said once he read the line 943 00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:37,400 Speaker 1: I've crossed oceans of time to find you, he was like, well, 944 00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:39,520 Speaker 1: I've got to do it. I can't. I can't go 945 00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:41,560 Speaker 1: on with my career without saying that line. 946 00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:45,360 Speaker 2: Yeah. I feel like Gary Oldman's performance is so good 947 00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:47,600 Speaker 2: it can make you forget that there is no love 948 00:53:47,640 --> 00:53:50,320 Speaker 2: story in the novel, or at least not worn with Dracula, 949 00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:54,400 Speaker 2: like Dracula and Mina and the novel are not in love. Yeah, 950 00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:57,239 Speaker 2: he's just bad in the novel. He's just a he's 951 00:53:57,280 --> 00:54:01,000 Speaker 2: just a demon. He's not suave's that cool, he does 952 00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:02,920 Speaker 2: not take her on the date to pet a wolf 953 00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:05,279 Speaker 2: in the cinematograph. 954 00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:07,200 Speaker 1: Yes, this is a good point. And you know, and 955 00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:09,520 Speaker 1: I think if you're if you're out there and you 956 00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:13,160 Speaker 1: want more about the nature of Dracula and various depictions 957 00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:16,360 Speaker 1: of Dracula, tune in for a Weird House Cinema this Friday, 958 00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:18,760 Speaker 1: because I'm sure we'll have a lot to discuss regarding 959 00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:23,600 Speaker 1: this and the version of Dracula that will be experiencing 960 00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:26,640 Speaker 1: in that film. And as for shadows, I believe we'll 961 00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:28,640 Speaker 1: be back on Thursday with more. 962 00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:31,880 Speaker 2: The shadows fall longer and longer, they will not be denied. 963 00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:35,400 Speaker 1: All right, Well, we're gonna go ahead and close it 964 00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:38,719 Speaker 1: up there, but we will remind you that Stuff to 965 00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:42,440 Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind is a science podcast with core episodes 966 00:54:42,440 --> 00:54:45,839 Speaker 1: on Tuesdays and Thursdays. On Mondays we do listener mail, 967 00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:48,480 Speaker 1: on Wednesdays we do a short form artifact or monster 968 00:54:48,560 --> 00:54:51,160 Speaker 1: fact episode, and on Fridays we set aside most serious 969 00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:54,320 Speaker 1: concerns to just talk about a weird film on Weird 970 00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:57,600 Speaker 1: Houses Cinema. And oh, you may have noticed that we 971 00:54:57,680 --> 00:55:00,319 Speaker 1: have new host photos for Stuff to Blow your Mind. 972 00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:02,680 Speaker 1: Here if you haven't seen them. Run by our recently 973 00:55:02,719 --> 00:55:06,239 Speaker 1: revived social media presences all linked off of stuffedbellermind dot 974 00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:11,080 Speaker 1: com and more specifically where stbym podcast on Instagram. Now 975 00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:13,320 Speaker 1: let me tell you where we have those photos taken. 976 00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:17,120 Speaker 1: We visited the Museum of Illusions Atlanta, a delightful and 977 00:55:17,239 --> 00:55:20,960 Speaker 1: educational attraction located in Atlantic Station. They feature a whole 978 00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:24,640 Speaker 1: host of visual illusions, including illusion rooms that you can 979 00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:29,600 Speaker 1: walk into and interact with. So in a way, you 980 00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:32,440 Speaker 1: may feel like a vampire in some of these places, 981 00:55:32,440 --> 00:55:36,759 Speaker 1: because your reflection especially will not be what you imagined 982 00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:39,160 Speaker 1: it would be, or perhaps the way you look on 983 00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:42,440 Speaker 1: your camera or on the cameras that are present in 984 00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:46,400 Speaker 1: the room, the footage will not be right. Something is distorted, 985 00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:47,840 Speaker 1: something is out of whack. 986 00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:50,320 Speaker 2: It's a great place to get to know the stranger 987 00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:52,880 Speaker 2: sides of your own reflection and your own shadow. 988 00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:55,399 Speaker 1: Absolutely and it's fun for all ages. You can learn 989 00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:59,800 Speaker 1: more about Museum of Illusions Atlanta ati Atlanta dot com. 990 00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:04,080 Speaker 2: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. 991 00:56:04,239 --> 00:56:05,799 Speaker 2: If you would like to get in touch with us 992 00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:08,320 Speaker 2: with feedback on this episode or any other to suggest 993 00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:10,400 Speaker 2: a topic for the future, or just to say hello. 994 00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:13,520 Speaker 2: You can email us at contact at stuff to Blow 995 00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:22,280 Speaker 2: your Mind dot com. 996 00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:25,319 Speaker 3: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 997 00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:28,200 Speaker 3: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 998 00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:45,360 Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.