WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 90 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:02.680 Hey everybody. Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:06.400 you know this is a compilation episode, So every episode 0:00:06.519 --> 0:00:09.440 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:13.280 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.320 --> 0:00:15.800 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:15.800 --> 0:00:17.720 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:19.520 there's going to be nothing new here for you, but 0:00:19.880 --> 0:00:21.600 you can make your own decisions. 0:00:26.560 --> 0:00:28.960 Hello everyone, and welcome to it could Happen Here podcast, 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:31.480 which I'm recording at eight in the morning and best 0:00:31.560 --> 0:00:35.159 without any of my colleagues, and I'm joined today to 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:41.839 discuss the technological aspects of the border regime by Austin 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:45.760 Coca of Syracuse University and by Jake Quiener of the 0:00:45.800 --> 0:00:49.000 Electronic Privacy Information Center. Hi guys, good morning. 0:00:49.000 --> 0:00:49.440 How are you doing. 0:00:49.520 --> 0:00:53.080 James good, I'm very excited to talk more border stuff. 0:00:53.200 --> 0:00:57.279 I like covering this, even though it's sometimes terrible. So 0:00:57.640 --> 0:00:59.440 what I wanted to start off with is I think 0:00:59.480 --> 0:01:02.240 our listen as be familiar with CBP one, right, the 0:01:02.240 --> 0:01:06.400 most cursed cell phone up of all time, and both 0:01:06.400 --> 0:01:09.960 of you have written a lot and very insightfully about 0:01:10.000 --> 0:01:13.160 CBP one so I thought we could kind of do 0:01:13.240 --> 0:01:16.280 a little bit of a breakdown of a the issues 0:01:16.319 --> 0:01:18.440 with it and be like with the issues with it 0:01:18.480 --> 0:01:20.559 as an app, and then the fact that we're using 0:01:20.560 --> 0:01:24.640 an app being a problem inherently. So perhaps we could 0:01:24.640 --> 0:01:27.080 start with I know, Jake, you mentioned you wanted to 0:01:27.080 --> 0:01:29.039 talk a little bit about the design of the app. 0:01:29.319 --> 0:01:32.040 So in the process of sort of commissioning it and 0:01:32.040 --> 0:01:33.399 making it, should we start there? 0:01:33.800 --> 0:01:36.200 Yeah, And I think this story is pretty interesting and 0:01:36.319 --> 0:01:41.320 unique because CBP one was built in house by a 0:01:41.360 --> 0:01:47.800 small team at the Office of Field Operations. Wow CBP Yeah, 0:01:47.840 --> 0:01:52.160 which is it is unique? Like, yeah, there's one other 0:01:52.200 --> 0:01:56.040 app that they built, and I don't really know of 0:01:56.120 --> 0:01:59.720 other mobile apps that have been rolled out with anything 0:01:59.760 --> 0:02:02.520 close to the size of CBP one that have been 0:02:02.640 --> 0:02:04.200 designed by a government agency. 0:02:04.600 --> 0:02:07.480 Yeah, that's kind of an odd choice. 0:02:07.360 --> 0:02:07.520 You know. 0:02:07.600 --> 0:02:10.960 Conceptually, it's not something I'm critical of, Like, I think, 0:02:11.000 --> 0:02:14.040 if we're going to have a government that's providing services, 0:02:14.440 --> 0:02:17.600 it's good for them to do things in house. It 0:02:17.680 --> 0:02:22.080 means you're not relying on third parties who are able 0:02:22.120 --> 0:02:26.079 to like use information from the app and benefit off 0:02:26.120 --> 0:02:28.920 of it. But it doesn't mean you need the institutional 0:02:28.960 --> 0:02:34.160 competency to be able to design an app and so 0:02:34.960 --> 0:02:39.480 to just like provide a quick history. Basically, a CBP 0:02:39.560 --> 0:02:41.799 one app was built off of the framework of an 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:46.320 older app called CBP Rome. That app was used just 0:02:46.400 --> 0:02:50.079 for people boating on the Great Lakes because technically, if 0:02:50.080 --> 0:02:52.520 you go like voting on Lake Michigan, you will leave 0:02:52.560 --> 0:02:55.320 the United States if you chase a fish over the 0:02:55.360 --> 0:02:59.320 boundary to Canada. Yeah, and CBP felt that it was 0:02:59.440 --> 0:03:02.200 very important the people who did that reported leaving and 0:03:02.200 --> 0:03:07.600 coming back into the United States. Yeah, right, questionable, but 0:03:08.240 --> 0:03:12.079 they built an app to let people do that, and 0:03:12.160 --> 0:03:15.440 the framework for that app used a GPS ping to 0:03:15.560 --> 0:03:17.160 verify when you're back in the US. 0:03:17.760 --> 0:03:20.120 Okay, this is a small app, you know. 0:03:20.160 --> 0:03:22.280 I don't think they encountered too many problems with it 0:03:22.320 --> 0:03:27.520 because you're maybe a couple hundred visitors a day. And 0:03:27.639 --> 0:03:31.200 on that framework they built out CBP one to do 0:03:31.280 --> 0:03:36.920 a couple of things. It's used for folks like customs folks. 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:38.960 So if you're importing goods into the country, you can 0:03:39.000 --> 0:03:42.240 do some of that reporting through CBP one and also 0:03:42.320 --> 0:03:44.600 use it to apply for the and obtain the I 0:03:44.680 --> 0:03:47.400 ninety four Travel form, which is the forum that like 0:03:47.800 --> 0:03:49.720 most folks coming to the United States are going to 0:03:49.800 --> 0:03:53.520 need and then critically for our uses, is that if 0:03:53.520 --> 0:03:56.880 you are applying for asylum, you can use it to 0:03:56.920 --> 0:03:57.920 schedule an appointment. 0:03:58.440 --> 0:04:01.160 Yeah, that's been the of my reporting on it, is 0:04:01.200 --> 0:04:05.200 that the bulk of its use I think so, yeah, okay, 0:04:05.720 --> 0:04:08.600 and so I'm still blown away with the fact they 0:04:08.600 --> 0:04:11.280 designed in house. It's crazy. Did you ever find that 0:04:11.400 --> 0:04:13.680 job did job posting? So people who designed it or 0:04:13.680 --> 0:04:15.960 did they just like get some people who were good 0:04:15.960 --> 0:04:17.680 to it to kind of take a swing at it. 0:04:18.760 --> 0:04:20.800 So, as far as I know from you know, I've 0:04:20.839 --> 0:04:22.920 talked to one of the people involved in the creation. 0:04:23.080 --> 0:04:26.200 I think Austin has as well. My understanding is that 0:04:26.240 --> 0:04:29.000 it was like an in house team that already existed. Okay, 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:30.880 but Austin, you may be able to clarify that. 0:04:31.720 --> 0:04:34.159 Yeah, that's my understanding too. I think they have a 0:04:34.240 --> 0:04:38.880 technology team within the agency that was using technology in 0:04:39.800 --> 0:04:42.720 various ways. I don't think we have a full understanding 0:04:42.760 --> 0:04:45.760 of the scope of their responsibilities and the work that 0:04:45.800 --> 0:04:48.040 they've done. I think, to Jake's point, it is quite 0:04:48.040 --> 0:04:52.800 interesting that they produce something for the public It's not unusual, 0:04:52.839 --> 0:04:56.760 of course for large agencies to have teams in house 0:04:56.880 --> 0:05:00.880 that deal with all of the general technology call challenges 0:05:00.920 --> 0:05:06.000 that that every agency in twenty twenty three faces, you know, databases, 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:09.520 you know, keeping government cell phones working and secure and 0:05:09.560 --> 0:05:11.480 all of that, all of that kind of thing. But 0:05:11.560 --> 0:05:13.680 a lot of the things that are public facing from 0:05:13.680 --> 0:05:16.919 federal agencies tend to be contracted out to a private 0:05:17.040 --> 0:05:20.480 vendor in some way. So this is it's quite unique, 0:05:20.480 --> 0:05:23.640 and but I don't think we have a false scope 0:05:23.640 --> 0:05:26.279 of what they what they are aren't producing in house. 0:05:27.000 --> 0:05:30.760 Yeah, they that's interesting because they heavily rely on outside 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:32.799 contractors for so much of it. Like there's a whole 0:05:32.839 --> 0:05:35.760 industry that you know, starts here in San Diego and 0:05:35.800 --> 0:05:38.520 goes over to Tucson and are probably further into New 0:05:38.560 --> 0:05:43.279 Mexico of people providing surveillance technology to border patrol and 0:05:43.320 --> 0:05:45.560 then you know, it goes over to the West Bank too. 0:05:46.160 --> 0:05:48.960 Lots of lots of it can be seen. Having talked 0:05:48.960 --> 0:05:51.960 about they sort of unique approach to design, it's probably 0:05:52.080 --> 0:05:54.320 a good idea to then talk about the implementation of 0:05:54.400 --> 0:05:57.960 zapp and it's kind of lacklusters and understandment it just 0:05:57.960 --> 0:06:04.520 fucking sucks. It's terrible. So like, in what many ways 0:06:04.560 --> 0:06:07.520 has it been unfit for the purpose that it's supposed 0:06:07.560 --> 0:06:09.520 to do. So I guess first we can talk about 0:06:09.640 --> 0:06:13.080 technological and inadequacies, and then more broadly about why this 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:15.040 isn't a problem you can really solve with an app 0:06:15.040 --> 0:06:17.320 on a telephone that needs to broadband and Wi Fi. 0:06:18.360 --> 0:06:20.560 Yeah, so I'll start by saying that I think a 0:06:20.600 --> 0:06:24.080 lot of what's happening with the problem the CPP one 0:06:24.120 --> 0:06:28.960 app is institutional blindness. So the people who design the app, 0:06:29.640 --> 0:06:33.880 I genuinely think want it to work well, and I 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:37.160 think they're simply not asking the questions that you need 0:06:37.200 --> 0:06:39.680 to be asking. And when you design app like this, 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:42.360 which is who's really going to be using it? What 0:06:42.400 --> 0:06:47.760 are their needs? What technology? What wireless services today? What 0:06:47.800 --> 0:06:52.159 phones are they using? Basically like, if you're someone on 0:06:52.240 --> 0:06:55.400 the southern border with very little money and probably an 0:06:55.400 --> 0:06:58.279 outdated phone, yes, are you going to be able to 0:06:58.320 --> 0:06:58.839 use this app? 0:06:58.880 --> 0:06:59.640 Not a great camera? 0:07:01.040 --> 0:07:04.320 And so I think the first place to start with 0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:06.719 that is simply the fact that the app requires a 0:07:06.800 --> 0:07:10.400 strong Wi Fi or sale signal to use, which is 0:07:10.440 --> 0:07:14.560 not always present. And I think Austin has some good 0:07:14.720 --> 0:07:18.400 insight into the problems with insufficient Wi Fi. 0:07:19.480 --> 0:07:22.960 Yeah, definitely, you know, I think some of what's interesting 0:07:23.000 --> 0:07:25.679 here is the way not only that the app relies 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:28.800 on Wi Fi, but then the kind of real world 0:07:29.000 --> 0:07:32.560 social consequences here for how people then try to cope 0:07:32.600 --> 0:07:34.680 with these problems. I want to take one step back, 0:07:34.800 --> 0:07:38.680 just really quickly and discuss the world that CBP was 0:07:38.760 --> 0:07:43.080 dropped into, because there's some important context here. So as 0:07:43.160 --> 0:07:46.560 I know you've already covered James. You know, over the 0:07:46.600 --> 0:07:51.960 past three years, the dominant border control policy was titled 0:07:51.960 --> 0:07:59.320 forty two, a COVID era policy that was purportedly motivated 0:07:59.320 --> 0:08:02.160 by concerns about public health. This is where title forty 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:04.520 two comes from. Title forty two of the US Code 0:08:04.880 --> 0:08:07.640 pertains to issues of questions of public health. It's not 0:08:08.120 --> 0:08:11.760 an immigration policy. It was a public health policy, although 0:08:11.880 --> 0:08:16.240 detailed reporting has I think pretty well established that it 0:08:16.320 --> 0:08:20.480 was more of a political moment of political opportunism rather 0:08:20.520 --> 0:08:24.720 than a legitimate public health concern. But regardless, that policy 0:08:25.360 --> 0:08:30.000 allowed Customs and Border Protection to effectively turn back anyone 0:08:30.040 --> 0:08:32.559 who arrived at the border, whether they attempted to cross 0:08:32.600 --> 0:08:36.040 unlawfully or not, and the primary human rights concern here 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:39.760 was people who were seeking asylum, which is their right 0:08:39.840 --> 0:08:43.960 to do. One of the aspects of Title forty two 0:08:44.080 --> 0:08:47.560 was that there was a rare exemption clause built in 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:51.000 that allowed people who were particularly vulnerable a. 0:08:50.920 --> 0:08:52.880 Particular humanitarian concern. 0:08:54.400 --> 0:08:58.480 To attempt to effectively apply for this kind of exemption. 0:08:59.480 --> 0:09:01.800 Until Anuary of this year, that process was run by 0:09:01.840 --> 0:09:06.760 nonprofit organizations. CBP had this sort of informal outsourced system 0:09:07.120 --> 0:09:10.679 where NGOs on the Mexican side of the border would 0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:16.400 effectively conduct massive amounts of intake and prioritization and triaging 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:19.960 of these cases and then submit you know, names to 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:22.559 CBP to a lot of people to come through ports 0:09:22.559 --> 0:09:29.000 of entry. CBP one effectively replaced that system in January, 0:09:29.360 --> 0:09:32.200 which meant that instead of migrants going through the NGOs, 0:09:33.080 --> 0:09:35.080 they would have to download this app, fill out the 0:09:35.080 --> 0:09:37.920 information and send it in. This is really important to 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:41.520 mention because the groundwork was actually laid by a tremendous 0:09:41.520 --> 0:09:45.800 amount of effectively unpaid labor on the backs of NGOs 0:09:45.800 --> 0:09:48.600 on the southern side of the border. And you know, 0:09:49.000 --> 0:09:51.360 is it is fair and accurate to say that this 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:55.560 was an extremely imperfect system and that there were absolutely, 0:09:55.840 --> 0:09:59.360 you know, significant issues with this. But one of the 0:09:59.360 --> 0:10:03.800 interesting things is that the role that NGO's played meant 0:10:03.840 --> 0:10:08.880 that people coming and seeking asylum would then in some 0:10:08.920 --> 0:10:13.640 ways be potentially connected with a broader network of NGOs 0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:17.680 support services, advocacy and so forth. So the introduction of 0:10:17.720 --> 0:10:21.880 CBP one purportedly bypassed the work of NGOs in screening 0:10:22.200 --> 0:10:27.000 people for the exemption process. However, NGOs still ended up 0:10:27.000 --> 0:10:29.840 performing all this kind of invisible labor because they're the 0:10:29.840 --> 0:10:33.480 ones who effectively were working with migrants to make Wi 0:10:33.520 --> 0:10:36.880 Fi available. And it's not just Wi Fi, it's actually 0:10:37.080 --> 0:10:40.760 charging your phone. When I visited shelters and camps on 0:10:40.800 --> 0:10:42.200 the southern side of the border at the end of 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:48.320 twenty twenty two, a big part of their having camps 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:51.840 and shelters was actually providing electricity, you know, when I 0:10:51.960 --> 0:10:54.720 was there, and I know others have reported on this, James, 0:10:54.720 --> 0:10:56.960 I'm sure you've seen this too. You know, people would 0:10:57.000 --> 0:11:01.080 be huddled around the outlets because they needed to charge 0:11:01.080 --> 0:11:03.760 their phone, if their phone didn't work, if their phone 0:11:03.800 --> 0:11:07.400 wasn't charged, they didn't have access. Prior to CBP one, 0:11:07.559 --> 0:11:10.160 this was already a challenge because the primary form of 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:14.400 communication with CBP was phone calls. They would individuals would 0:11:14.400 --> 0:11:17.520 get phone calls. In fact, I interviewed the Russian family 0:11:17.760 --> 0:11:20.839 on the Mexican side of the border and Matamotos in 0:11:21.559 --> 0:11:26.800 last November and a family now they and many of 0:11:26.800 --> 0:11:28.880 the other migrants I spoke with, and this was also 0:11:28.920 --> 0:11:32.600 true for many migrants. By the way, the families, typically 0:11:32.679 --> 0:11:34.800 the wife and children, if there were a family unit, 0:11:35.040 --> 0:11:37.520 would stay either in a hotel or a shelter or 0:11:37.559 --> 0:11:40.720 someplace that was more safe, and then the men would 0:11:40.920 --> 0:11:44.840 effectively have the nights on the street where they could 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:47.800 actually get cell phone coverage and things like that. So 0:11:48.280 --> 0:11:51.760 CBP one introduced all of these kind of technological demands. 0:11:51.840 --> 0:11:54.719 It's not that they weren't there before, but I think 0:11:54.760 --> 0:11:58.440 it's a different matter when you go from interacting with 0:11:58.480 --> 0:12:01.199 a network of NGOs to say saying, now you're actually 0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:04.080 interacting with the US government and this is the only 0:12:04.960 --> 0:12:07.160 way that you're going to be able to enter the country. 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:11.200 I think those demands were quite high. They've clearly had 0:12:11.200 --> 0:12:14.079 some tremendously negative impacts from migrants trying. 0:12:13.920 --> 0:12:14.680 To come through that way. 0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:18.840 Yeah, definitely, I know have one here. But we've bought 0:12:19.160 --> 0:12:23.679 so many of these, like solar powered charging brick things 0:12:23.880 --> 0:12:27.640 and distributed those. But I have so many photos of 0:12:27.679 --> 0:12:31.040 people's hands reaching through the wall and people trying to 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:33.000 charge to their phone on the other side of the wall, 0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:35.439 you know, And it's been a big demand for a while. 0:12:35.480 --> 0:12:38.280 But it's certainly when CBP were detaining people in places 0:12:38.280 --> 0:12:40.120 where you didn't have power and then expecting them to 0:12:40.160 --> 0:12:44.480 also communicate using their telephones, that became a particularly sort 0:12:44.520 --> 0:12:49.200 of ridiculous issue, very upsetting to see it like done 0:12:49.240 --> 0:12:54.720 like that. So, yeah, this app really isn't a solution 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:57.320 for the problem we're facing, which is, as you said, 0:12:57.320 --> 0:12:59.640 like a three year backlug on people who have legitimate 0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:03.480 sign claims being able to make those asylum claims. And 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:08.400 I guess can we talk about who it favors in, 0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:11.760 you know, implementing this system as a catchule, right, not 0:13:12.040 --> 0:13:14.880 an option, but the option Who does that favor and 0:13:14.920 --> 0:13:15.480 who does it not? 0:13:18.160 --> 0:13:20.000 Yeah, before we get there, I think it might be 0:13:20.040 --> 0:13:22.320 helpful to just run through, like what it is like 0:13:22.400 --> 0:13:24.520 to use CVP one. Oh, yeah, let's talk. You have 0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:27.199 to go through because it is a yeah, and that's 0:13:28.760 --> 0:13:30.920 when you're thinking about that, think that every step is 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:34.080 a potential failure. Point right, every step you could have 0:13:34.120 --> 0:13:36.920 a glitch, And anytime you have a glitch happen, it's 0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:38.440 going to kick you out of the app and. 0:13:38.360 --> 0:13:39.240 You have to restart. 0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:44.079 So, if you're on a southern border you to apply 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:50.400 for asylum, you've been walking for months from Venezuela, Guatemala, 0:13:50.480 --> 0:13:50.880 et cetera. 0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:52.520 You got your phone. 0:13:53.280 --> 0:13:55.040 The first thing you have to do is log into 0:13:55.040 --> 0:13:58.360 the app through login dot gov. That's the single sign 0:13:58.400 --> 0:14:02.760 on service that many government agencies use. H works fairly well, 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:05.240 but you got you need, so you register yourself a profile. 0:14:06.840 --> 0:14:09.400 Then you're going to navigate over. Hopefully you speak one 0:14:09.440 --> 0:14:13.240 of the languages that CPP one is available in. As 0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:17.720 of now, I believe that's English, Spanish, and Haitian Creole, 0:14:17.880 --> 0:14:24.400 although they may have added a new language recently. You 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:28.200 find the right place on the app, not always super clear, 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:33.560 to submit your asylum application and try and schedule an appointment. 0:14:34.160 --> 0:14:35.480 And then you're going to have to fill out a 0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:41.520 ton of information. You're giving CBP, your name, addresses, people 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:44.080 you know in the US, big form to fill out, 0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:48.880 including often information on like how vulnerable you are, so 0:14:49.040 --> 0:14:51.120 like are you pregnant, are you disabled? Have you been 0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:55.080 threatened in Mexico? Information that they want to use to 0:14:55.120 --> 0:14:59.200 prioritize you hopefully, and then you're going to need to 0:14:59.200 --> 0:15:02.840 take a facial photo that's going to go into CBP 0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:06.640 and Department Homeland Securities databases. It will be run against 0:15:06.640 --> 0:15:12.440 facial recognition searches that they populate with, like this massive 0:15:12.600 --> 0:15:17.040 facial recognition system, the Traveler Verification Service that can flag 0:15:17.160 --> 0:15:23.000 people who are on CBP's target list TSA's target list. 0:15:24.000 --> 0:15:25.760 You could be wrongfully flagged. 0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:29.280 By that because facial recognition is not a perfect technology. 0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:32.480 You're also going to take a facial liveness scan. It's 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:35.200 related to facial recognition, but it is different. It's a 0:15:35.200 --> 0:15:41.280 different technology and it is untested. There's been no government 0:15:41.320 --> 0:15:46.480 agency that has evaluated facial liveness for bias, and that 0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:48.720 basically is trying to figure out are you a real 0:15:48.760 --> 0:15:51.840 person or are you like a picture of James that 0:15:51.880 --> 0:15:56.560 you're holding up because you're trying to get James an 0:15:56.600 --> 0:15:58.760 appointment and then sell it to them later or something. 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:03.600 Do the facial liveness scan. That's been the sticking point 0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:06.200 where folks with darker skin and indigenous folks have not 0:16:06.240 --> 0:16:08.840 been able to get through it. We can talk about 0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:10.720 that a little later. Yeah, you're also going to do 0:16:10.760 --> 0:16:13.800 a GPS pain so your phone, pulling from both cell 0:16:13.880 --> 0:16:16.560 towers and GPS data, is going to try and establish 0:16:16.600 --> 0:16:19.560 your location and send it to CBP. That can create 0:16:19.600 --> 0:16:22.560 problems if you're pinging off a US cell tower, Suddenly 0:16:22.640 --> 0:16:25.200 it's less reliable, might look like you're in the US. 0:16:25.920 --> 0:16:26.960 And once you get. 0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:29.440 Through all these steps, then you're able to submit your 0:16:29.480 --> 0:16:33.200 information and you're in a lottery or whether or not 0:16:33.240 --> 0:16:34.080 you get an appointment. 0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:39.400 Great. Yeah, let's the photo thing. I think has been 0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:42.560 covered maybe I but we've been covered extensively because this 0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:44.800 is what I do. But I think maybe some people 0:16:44.840 --> 0:16:49.160 aren't aware of the complete inadequacy of those facial liveness scans. 0:16:49.280 --> 0:16:51.280 And I know some nonprofit since you want to have 0:16:51.360 --> 0:16:53.720 light booths which can help with that, but it's not 0:16:53.760 --> 0:16:57.120 you know, it's again like that money could be doing 0:16:57.160 --> 0:16:59.800 something more useful, right and then making like a like 0:16:59.800 --> 0:17:03.520 a Instagram booth for people who just want to use 0:17:03.560 --> 0:17:05.680 the exercise I llegal right to claim asylum. So let's 0:17:05.680 --> 0:17:08.520 talk about that that technology and how it's not working. 0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:12.639 Yeah, I think one really important factor here, and the 0:17:12.640 --> 0:17:14.960 reason I wanted to paint some of the contexts was 0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:19.679 and partly selfish because as a geographer, I'm always very 0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:23.639 you know, eager to evangelize about the importance of understanding 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:27.480 social geography for thinking about questions of you know, human 0:17:27.560 --> 0:17:30.560 rights and asylum and immigration, so the facial life. This 0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:34.119 test is a great example of that. So you know, 0:17:34.400 --> 0:17:36.679 it's hard to see this unless you've been on the 0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:40.439 ground in some of these places. But you know, again, 0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:43.720 just a historical thing I think will be pretty non controversial. 0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:48.200 Anti black racism is something that's existed for a very 0:17:48.200 --> 0:17:50.520 long time. It's not just in the United States. It's 0:17:50.640 --> 0:17:54.639 around the world obviously, yeah, not everywhere, but but you know, 0:17:54.840 --> 0:17:58.800 obviously through colonialism, through settler colonialism, and so forth. It's 0:17:58.880 --> 0:18:02.840 really shaped not just anti black racism, but anti black 0:18:02.880 --> 0:18:07.040 racism itself has produced many of the geographies that we have, 0:18:07.200 --> 0:18:11.439 from redlining, segregation, educational acts, all kinds of things. The 0:18:11.480 --> 0:18:14.520 way that the social world looks today is already shaped 0:18:15.240 --> 0:18:18.720 by these issues of racism. What that then means is 0:18:18.960 --> 0:18:24.480 questions like who has access to cell phone towers and 0:18:24.640 --> 0:18:28.640 fast Wi Fi, and who can afford up to date 0:18:28.680 --> 0:18:33.280 smartphones that can meet all of the threshold of require 0:18:33.320 --> 0:18:37.920 the technological requirements to this to use this apvenues of 0:18:38.000 --> 0:18:44.160 software is already distributed and fractured by questions of race 0:18:44.160 --> 0:18:47.880 and identity. What that means is, even if the facial 0:18:47.960 --> 0:18:54.000 liveness test worked perfectly and there were no issues with 0:18:54.040 --> 0:18:56.720 the software, which is not true, but let's even just 0:18:56.760 --> 0:19:00.560 assume that it is still true that acts to that 0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:04.080 technology and software is already structured by race. So one 0:19:04.080 --> 0:19:06.240 of the things I noticed, you know, having spent time 0:19:06.240 --> 0:19:09.280 along the border, was just how much even in some 0:19:09.359 --> 0:19:13.960 of the shelters and where black and African migrants had 0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:17.840 access to shelter, was itself much tended to be more 0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:21.560 pushed to the out outside of the where you're less 0:19:21.640 --> 0:19:24.239 likely to get good cell phone coverage, less likely to 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:28.040 have electricity, much more likely that the roads even where 0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:30.640 I visited, were not paved. And I was there when 0:19:30.640 --> 0:19:35.679 it was raining in Reynosa one day, and you know, 0:19:36.680 --> 0:19:39.680 some of the places where African migrants and African families 0:19:40.320 --> 0:19:43.879 were staying, and black migrants, by the way from Latin America. 0:19:43.960 --> 0:19:47.520 Let's just remind everyone that there are black Latinos living 0:19:47.520 --> 0:19:51.400 in Latin America, right, were also pushed you know, more 0:19:51.440 --> 0:19:54.720 to the outskirts, and as a result of that, those 0:19:54.760 --> 0:19:59.679 factors contributed to access. So it wasn't just issues with 0:19:59.720 --> 0:20:02.040 theware itself, which may be there. It's hard for me 0:20:02.080 --> 0:20:03.960 to evaluate. It's not, you know, because it's not like 0:20:04.000 --> 0:20:07.120 we've done our own evaluation of that. But it's also 0:20:07.119 --> 0:20:09.359 all of those contextual factors. And I just want to 0:20:09.440 --> 0:20:12.640 make a fine point on this. We know that already. 0:20:12.880 --> 0:20:17.720 CBP should understand that already and understand the various social 0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:21.320 factors that impact access. So simply saying, for instance, if 0:20:21.359 --> 0:20:23.760 one wanted to take a defensive position and say, well, look, 0:20:24.040 --> 0:20:27.720 we ran the test, the software works as intended, there's 0:20:27.760 --> 0:20:31.080 no racial bias in the software. That doesn't get CBP 0:20:31.359 --> 0:20:34.360 out of the responsibility of saying yes, but you absolutely 0:20:34.640 --> 0:20:37.320 had all the information and a reasonable person should have 0:20:37.359 --> 0:20:40.640 known that this access to this app or had these 0:20:40.680 --> 0:20:45.240 kind of technological requirements and that access was not evenly distributed. 0:20:45.840 --> 0:20:47.800 Yeah, I think it's really important you said that, actually 0:20:47.840 --> 0:20:50.359 because a lot of reporters it does get reporters on. 0:20:50.400 --> 0:20:52.119 There are people doing great work, but like sometimes it 0:20:52.200 --> 0:20:55.840 gets missed because African migrants might not speak Spanish Black 0:20:55.880 --> 0:21:01.520 African migrants and a lot of reporters don't have the 0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:04.359 language skills to talk to people in I worked with 0:21:04.400 --> 0:21:08.600 a fixer who spoke a Romo and to Grayan and 0:21:09.200 --> 0:21:11.040 a lot of other, like five or six other languages, 0:21:11.080 --> 0:21:13.639 and that helped to get me an insight into the 0:21:13.760 --> 0:21:17.639 very difficult situation that lots of African people face. And 0:21:17.840 --> 0:21:20.639 you know that their isolation and the relative lack of 0:21:20.680 --> 0:21:23.720 resources even in what's a pretty resource spar setting for everyone, 0:21:24.280 --> 0:21:27.280 and Haitian people, I've spoken to a lot of Haitian people. 0:21:28.520 --> 0:21:31.159 Plus then you add that, like if I think about 0:21:31.280 --> 0:21:35.960 last month, the languages which I was able with through friends, 0:21:36.000 --> 0:21:38.800 through translation to speak to people with you know, Vietnamese 0:21:39.440 --> 0:21:45.399 command you is a dialect of Kurdish, French, right, Swahili, Spanish, 0:21:45.680 --> 0:21:50.480 evidently Dutch aside from Spanish, those are not covered. Maybe 0:21:50.520 --> 0:21:53.080 if you're French you can, I think it would be 0:21:53.119 --> 0:21:55.040 still hard to work in Haitian creole of you if 0:21:55.080 --> 0:21:59.199 you spoke sort of more mainland French, those are not 0:21:59.240 --> 0:22:02.199 covered by that, right, so you have to find a 0:22:02.240 --> 0:22:05.560 way to access that with via translation, And then it's 0:22:05.760 --> 0:22:09.720 very the information makes you incredibly vulnerable to whomever of 0:22:09.800 --> 0:22:12.959 you if you're asking someone to share. Right, It's imperfect. 0:22:13.000 --> 0:22:15.840 It's not a sufficient way to describe it, but it 0:22:16.160 --> 0:22:17.800 extremely flawed system. 0:22:19.280 --> 0:22:22.680 To Jake's point, like, I'm also like kind of open 0:22:22.720 --> 0:22:27.679 minded about, you know, about using an app like this. 0:22:27.800 --> 0:22:30.159 I mean, there's I mean Jake's right, I mean, if 0:22:30.160 --> 0:22:32.640 you're going to have a government in twenty twenty three, 0:22:32.840 --> 0:22:36.160 like having some reasonably up to date ways to do 0:22:36.240 --> 0:22:38.560 things is not an unreasonable expectation. 0:22:39.200 --> 0:22:42.159 But there's just so many blatantly. 0:22:41.760 --> 0:22:48.520 Obvious sort of shortcomings that are not difficult to identify 0:22:49.720 --> 0:22:52.560 in preparing this app and understanding what people are likely 0:22:52.600 --> 0:22:55.600 to need, so to have those gaps, and then also 0:22:55.640 --> 0:22:59.280 to roll out the app at a time when the 0:23:00.000 --> 0:23:03.560 same policy announcement that rolls out this app is also 0:23:03.560 --> 0:23:05.960 a policy announcement that says this is the only way 0:23:06.000 --> 0:23:08.560 to do it. I mean, imagine if like your new 0:23:08.600 --> 0:23:12.960 policy for like healthcare for some you know, particular healthcare 0:23:13.440 --> 0:23:15.240 you know, thing was like, we have to go through 0:23:15.240 --> 0:23:17.480 this route, and we know that eighty percent of people 0:23:17.560 --> 0:23:19.320 aren't going to be able to use this, but now 0:23:19.320 --> 0:23:21.000 this is the only treatment you have an. 0:23:20.880 --> 0:23:24.040 Option for I mean that would be that it's just strange. 0:23:24.119 --> 0:23:27.159 I think I think one thing to just think about 0:23:27.160 --> 0:23:31.119 creatively here is I can imagine a phase rollout of 0:23:31.160 --> 0:23:33.119 this where they did improve it over time, that they 0:23:33.119 --> 0:23:37.280 were adequate, you know, outlets for people who didn't fit 0:23:37.359 --> 0:23:40.560 into the categories that they had built into the app. 0:23:41.280 --> 0:23:42.880 And I think I think that would be a more 0:23:42.920 --> 0:23:46.000 complex and more nuanced than maybe a more more interesting 0:23:46.040 --> 0:23:48.080 way to do it. I just don't think I don't 0:23:48.119 --> 0:23:50.359 think it was rolled out responsibly in that way. 0:23:51.640 --> 0:23:53.919 Yeah, yeah, I think we should be honest that beta 0:23:53.960 --> 0:23:56.680 testing an app on hundreds of thousands of the most 0:23:56.760 --> 0:24:00.000 vulnerable people in the world is incredibly responsible. 0:24:01.080 --> 0:24:05.480 Yeah. Yeah, it's just cruel. It's not in any way appropriate. 0:24:06.200 --> 0:24:09.840 So I guess we've talked a lot about this app. 0:24:10.440 --> 0:24:13.000 Let's talk about let's say you're fortunate enough to get 0:24:13.000 --> 0:24:14.919 an a sign of appointment here to enter the US. 0:24:16.119 --> 0:24:18.879 You would then, in most cases enter something which is 0:24:18.920 --> 0:24:24.080 called CBP's Alternatives to Detention Systems. Icis, sorry, Yeah, you're right. 0:24:24.280 --> 0:24:26.560 Let's explain a little bit like why it's an alternative 0:24:26.560 --> 0:24:29.840 to detention? Why would one be detained if you haven't 0:24:29.880 --> 0:24:33.080 in theory, done anything wrong, well, in many people's perspective, 0:24:33.080 --> 0:24:36.760 have done anything wrong, I guess. And then what does 0:24:36.840 --> 0:24:39.320 ATD mean? And then we can get into some of 0:24:39.359 --> 0:24:43.040 the privacy issues and the way that it affects not 0:24:43.119 --> 0:24:45.720 just migrants but also everyone. 0:24:46.240 --> 0:24:47.960 Yeah, one thing before we go there, I think would 0:24:47.960 --> 0:24:52.360 be great, just closing the loop on the racial bias discussion. 0:24:54.080 --> 0:24:56.040 This is like an element of my advocacy that I 0:24:56.080 --> 0:24:59.439 talk about all the time in different areas of like 0:24:59.480 --> 0:25:02.159 how fish recognition is used when it's using the criminal 0:25:02.240 --> 0:25:07.440 justice system, is that there absolutely is bias in most 0:25:07.440 --> 0:25:11.760 facial recognition systems. They work really well for white men 0:25:12.119 --> 0:25:15.040 and increase increasingly less well basically as you run down 0:25:15.080 --> 0:25:19.159 the privileged spectrum. That's an element of how these systems 0:25:19.160 --> 0:25:22.280 are designed, right, It's they get fed a lot of 0:25:22.720 --> 0:25:26.520 images of white men and fewer images of other folks. 0:25:27.600 --> 0:25:32.159 That's fixable, right, like you can provide a training database 0:25:32.280 --> 0:25:36.119 that is a whole, you know, a good spread of people. 0:25:37.400 --> 0:25:40.760 It seems to not necessarily have been done with the 0:25:40.800 --> 0:25:45.680 facial liveness for CBP one, in part because the British 0:25:45.720 --> 0:25:48.960 company that designed it probably did not have access to 0:25:49.920 --> 0:25:51.919 a lot of images of the type of people who 0:25:51.920 --> 0:25:53.800 would be on the southern border. You're talking about like 0:25:53.840 --> 0:25:59.320 Indigenous Mexican folks v. Shield folks, just a very large 0:25:59.400 --> 0:26:04.080 number of different ethnicities. But any bias like that is, 0:26:04.400 --> 0:26:08.239 as Austin said, sitting on top of a series of 0:26:08.280 --> 0:26:12.840 other biases, right of structural biases. And so the result 0:26:13.040 --> 0:26:15.399 we see with a lot of facial recognition systems, and 0:26:15.400 --> 0:26:17.760 this facial ibness system is ceb going is no different. 0:26:18.480 --> 0:26:20.280 Is that a little bit of even to a little 0:26:20.280 --> 0:26:25.560 bit of bias in how the facial recognition works gets amplified, 0:26:25.880 --> 0:26:29.320 and it's amplified by social biases. It's amplified by the 0:26:29.320 --> 0:26:32.879 biases of people who run the system and people who 0:26:32.960 --> 0:26:36.160 interact with it every day, and then it's amplified by 0:26:36.920 --> 0:26:41.240 institutional blindness as well, failure to recognize a problem. We 0:26:41.320 --> 0:26:45.919 had facial recognition systems rolled out since on some levels 0:26:45.920 --> 0:26:48.919 since like the early to mid two thousands, and we 0:26:48.960 --> 0:26:51.520 didn't even know that facial that bias was a problem 0:26:51.520 --> 0:26:56.080 in any facial recognition system until twenty eighteen. So when 0:26:56.080 --> 0:26:58.879 you're thinking about and you're hearing about like bias testing 0:26:58.920 --> 0:27:01.720 and the fact that it's been bias tested. Those tests 0:27:01.760 --> 0:27:04.320 are never incredibly reliable because they're not done in the 0:27:04.320 --> 0:27:08.040 real world, they're not done with the people actually using 0:27:08.080 --> 0:27:08.720 the technology. 0:27:08.720 --> 0:27:09.440 They're done in a. 0:27:09.720 --> 0:27:13.119 Controlled setting, and they're not done by people who have 0:27:13.160 --> 0:27:19.320 a nuanced understanding of how the technology impacts people. Yeah, 0:27:19.359 --> 0:27:21.520 I think it's very important to remember that. Yeah, there's 0:27:21.600 --> 0:27:23.840 layers upon layers of bias, and they stack to make 0:27:23.880 --> 0:27:26.760 it harder and harder for certain people coming to the 0:27:26.840 --> 0:27:31.960 United States to get Again, what's that right? Often to 0:27:32.040 --> 0:27:34.760 just be safe, right, like some people, especially the less 0:27:34.880 --> 0:27:38.560 advantage you are sort of on a global scale, the 0:27:39.119 --> 0:27:42.520 likely the less safe you are waiting in Mexico to 0:27:42.520 --> 0:27:45.280 make an appointment for your asylum. Right, Like, if you 0:27:45.280 --> 0:27:47.400 can't get into a shelter, or you're from a group 0:27:47.400 --> 0:27:50.040 where you don't have community to look out for you, you're 0:27:49.720 --> 0:27:52.440 just that bit more likely to be taken advantage of 0:27:52.640 --> 0:27:55.680 or have something bad happen to you or your family. So, yeah, 0:27:55.960 --> 0:27:57.960 it'll stacks up, I guess, to make for a very 0:27:58.000 --> 0:28:02.639 unfortunate situation for people. Yeah, which means the consequence of 0:28:03.520 --> 0:28:05.480 having a glitch happen is way higher. 0:28:05.880 --> 0:28:09.720 Yes, I've personally known people who have had terrible consequences 0:28:09.760 --> 0:28:12.440 from what should have been a very very straightforward asylum 0:28:12.440 --> 0:28:17.240 application and very easy to process very rapidly. Yeah, it's 0:28:17.280 --> 0:28:19.240 it's it's a whole it's a whole mess. And I 0:28:19.320 --> 0:28:22.280 know I'm trying to speak more to some of the 0:28:22.320 --> 0:28:27.600 folks who work with African migrants because I think that often, yeah, 0:28:27.640 --> 0:28:31.280 their stories just don't get told, especially at our southern border, 0:28:31.320 --> 0:28:35.040 where like I think obviously there's this like a lot 0:28:35.040 --> 0:28:37.600 of people like to report on the border but not 0:28:37.680 --> 0:28:41.320 leave New York or DC or wherever they have their 0:28:41.520 --> 0:28:43.320 studio or newspaper or what have you. And I think 0:28:43.360 --> 0:28:46.840 it's easy to miss that if you haven't, like Gosud said, 0:28:47.480 --> 0:28:50.160 been around a lot and seen all these things to 0:28:50.160 --> 0:28:52.880 stack up on top of one another. But yeah, it's 0:28:52.920 --> 0:28:56.760 an important topic that we don't especially as like I know, 0:28:56.840 --> 0:28:58.800 it doesn't get reported on because everyone likes to report 0:28:58.840 --> 0:29:01.600 on Ukraine and only Ukraine, Like there's more wars in 0:29:01.680 --> 0:29:05.440 Africa or wars in you know, certain people from Myanmar, 0:29:06.600 --> 0:29:08.640 it's very hard for them to get to the southern border. 0:29:08.640 --> 0:29:14.040 Actually from hearing from thousands maybe different cases where people 0:29:14.040 --> 0:29:18.160 can't leave Thailand. But again, the system you know, when 0:29:18.160 --> 0:29:20.280 you have a whole other alphabet that you're trying to 0:29:20.320 --> 0:29:22.280 access the system in and it doesn't work for you 0:29:22.280 --> 0:29:24.720 then and that makes it incredibly difficult for those people. 0:29:25.120 --> 0:29:26.760 And that, ladies and gentlemen, is what we call a 0:29:26.840 --> 0:29:29.720 cliffhanger in the podcasting industry. Because we will be back 0:29:29.760 --> 0:29:33.360 tomorrow with more on how ICE tracks migrants and how 0:29:33.360 --> 0:29:35.680 that tracking of migrants can impact other people, people who 0:29:35.760 --> 0:29:37.920 live with them, people in their communities. I hope you're 0:29:37.960 --> 0:29:56.320 joined us then, thanks by hi everyone to James, and 0:29:56.520 --> 0:29:58.880 I am back with Austin and Jake to discuss ICE's 0:29:58.880 --> 0:30:01.880 Alternatives to two tent program today. If you didn't listened 0:30:01.880 --> 0:30:05.120 to yesterday's episode on CBP one and a little bit 0:30:05.160 --> 0:30:07.640 of at D, then I suggest starting there because there's 0:30:07.640 --> 0:30:10.160 a lot of context that you might be missing in 0:30:10.200 --> 0:30:14.600 today's episode. Let's talk about alternatives to detention a bit 0:30:14.720 --> 0:30:17.720 that's this is a this is a once inside the 0:30:17.880 --> 0:30:20.320 US system, right, so it's a little different. It's people 0:30:20.320 --> 0:30:23.640 who've managed to get through the significant hurdles post by 0:30:24.120 --> 0:30:27.680 CBP one. What happened to them? Then? 0:30:29.040 --> 0:30:32.840 Yeah, so you know ICE has the option of detaining 0:30:32.920 --> 0:30:38.160 people at immigrant Detention facilities. This includes people who are 0:30:38.240 --> 0:30:41.080 facing deportation. Most people who are facing deportation. 0:30:41.680 --> 0:30:45.320 Can you explain that the Title eight thing, because people 0:30:45.360 --> 0:30:47.240 might not be for I've tried to explain that before, 0:30:47.240 --> 0:30:48.720 but I'd love you to explain that again, just so 0:30:48.760 --> 0:30:52.840 people are clear regarding detention, well regarding like finding a 0:30:52.880 --> 0:30:57.720 defensive asylum application and why people might be doing that, 0:30:58.400 --> 0:31:01.560 like post like the post Title forty two sort of 0:31:01.800 --> 0:31:04.600 paradigm for processing asylum. 0:31:05.040 --> 0:31:07.360 Yeah, sure, Okay, So Title forty two, which we talked 0:31:07.400 --> 0:31:12.080 about earlier, has gone away, which means now Title eight 0:31:12.360 --> 0:31:14.960 is not like Title forty two. It's the part of 0:31:15.000 --> 0:31:18.000 the US law which is about immigration. Title eight never 0:31:18.080 --> 0:31:24.040 went away, but it is now the dominant section of 0:31:24.080 --> 0:31:28.760 code that is shaping border enforcement and immigration processing. When 0:31:28.840 --> 0:31:32.720 someone comes through CBP one and they get an appointment, 0:31:33.360 --> 0:31:36.080 they go to their interview for the entry. Then they 0:31:36.080 --> 0:31:38.840 come into the United States. They have not made an 0:31:38.880 --> 0:31:42.720 asylum application yet, so they still have to do that. 0:31:43.400 --> 0:31:46.800 And the United States has two options at this point. 0:31:46.920 --> 0:31:51.000 There's two agencies that can make decisions, can receive asylum 0:31:51.040 --> 0:31:56.560 applications and make decisions. USCIS, which is historically the primary 0:31:56.600 --> 0:32:00.400 one US Citizenship and Immigration Services. They have what are 0:32:00.440 --> 0:32:05.720 called asylum officers whose job it is to adjudicate assylum applications, 0:32:05.760 --> 0:32:10.480 interview people and so forth. Or people the United States 0:32:10.520 --> 0:32:15.680 can file removal proceedings deportation cases effectively against these individuals 0:32:15.880 --> 0:32:19.080 and put them into immigration court, where an immigration judge 0:32:19.880 --> 0:32:24.640 can accept an assiled application and adjudicate the assigled application. 0:32:25.000 --> 0:32:28.240 The major difference here is that in the court room 0:32:29.160 --> 0:32:32.160 in the immigration court system, that individual is going in 0:32:32.160 --> 0:32:35.200 front of a judge and has an ICE officer, an 0:32:35.320 --> 0:32:43.120 enforcement related kind of attorney effectively arguing against them in court. Technically, 0:32:43.200 --> 0:32:45.960 they're not supposed to be arguing against them per se. 0:32:45.960 --> 0:32:48.440 They're supposed to be finding the right outcome, but effectively 0:32:48.440 --> 0:32:52.240 they're arguing against them, almost like they're, you know, trying 0:32:52.240 --> 0:32:54.720 to apply for asylum and immigration court or in like 0:32:54.760 --> 0:32:58.720 a criminal court setting. Almost not really, but almost right. 0:32:58.800 --> 0:33:04.320 So here's the two main differences when those individuals. You know, historically, 0:33:04.400 --> 0:33:06.720 when people have been put into the immigration court system, 0:33:07.080 --> 0:33:09.400 ICE does have the option of detaining them, or at 0:33:09.480 --> 0:33:13.960 least detaining them for an early part of that process 0:33:14.080 --> 0:33:18.120 until they meet some certain tolds. The Biden administration has 0:33:18.200 --> 0:33:21.640 decided largely at this point not to go that route. 0:33:22.280 --> 0:33:24.080 That has not been true in the past. The Trump 0:33:24.080 --> 0:33:28.000 administration's detention numbers were up well over sixty thousand people 0:33:28.040 --> 0:33:30.720 detained the day at one point. Right now, it's about 0:33:30.800 --> 0:33:33.240 half that it's up from the beginning of the year. 0:33:33.360 --> 0:33:36.560 But it's about almost thirty thousand people are in detention now, 0:33:36.840 --> 0:33:39.640 and people seem to be moving through even when they 0:33:39.680 --> 0:33:43.920 are detained, relatively quickly. This is where alternatives to detention 0:33:44.040 --> 0:33:48.280 come in. We should not think of alternatives to detention 0:33:48.520 --> 0:33:52.640 as alternatives detention. In fact, ICE itself has said on 0:33:52.680 --> 0:33:57.320 their website and in testimony before Congress, alternatives to detention 0:33:57.640 --> 0:34:01.320 is not an alternative to detention. It is an alternative 0:34:01.400 --> 0:34:06.880 to unsupervised release. So it's what it really is is 0:34:06.920 --> 0:34:11.000 an electronic monitoring program that allows the agency to effectively 0:34:11.440 --> 0:34:14.600 keep track of everyone that they want to keep track of. Now, 0:34:14.680 --> 0:34:17.840 the number of people in this alternatives to detention program 0:34:18.120 --> 0:34:21.560 is an extremely small fraction of the number of asylum 0:34:21.640 --> 0:34:25.279 systems in court. It is nowhere near, you know, saturating 0:34:25.320 --> 0:34:28.760 the total number of people that they could be. One 0:34:28.800 --> 0:34:32.960 wonders whether they consider five percent monitoring some kind of 0:34:33.000 --> 0:34:36.120 massive success when you know, when most people are actually 0:34:36.120 --> 0:34:39.520 not monitored. But one major change has happened, which is 0:34:40.040 --> 0:34:43.400 in addition to the smartphone app that migrants use to 0:34:43.520 --> 0:34:47.440 even try to seek asylum, now migrants also have to 0:34:47.440 --> 0:34:51.960 download an app called smart Link. That is now this 0:34:52.000 --> 0:34:54.160 one is not built in house. This is contracted out 0:34:54.880 --> 0:34:59.719 from an organization called BI that effectively mostly contracts with 0:34:59.760 --> 0:35:03.000 the fminal Justice system, but they also contract with ICE. 0:35:03.200 --> 0:35:05.520 So they have to download an app on their phone 0:35:05.840 --> 0:35:10.080 and they have to check in regularly using a similar 0:35:10.120 --> 0:35:15.600 but different kind of facial technology. They can communicate with 0:35:15.640 --> 0:35:19.319 deportation officers, they can get alerts about their immigration court here, 0:35:19.400 --> 0:35:22.440 all this stuff, but the crucial part of that is 0:35:22.680 --> 0:35:27.759 under threat of detention or redetention, redetaining migrants have to 0:35:27.840 --> 0:35:30.600 check in on their smartphone. So it means that that 0:35:30.719 --> 0:35:33.600 same phone that one you know, struggled with on the 0:35:33.640 --> 0:35:36.040 periphery of Vernosa trying to just even get into the 0:35:36.120 --> 0:35:38.560 United States to pursue what is their legal right to 0:35:38.600 --> 0:35:42.080 pursue asylum, now they're glued to their smartphone, worried that 0:35:42.160 --> 0:35:45.080 if they don't respond to, you know, a text message 0:35:45.120 --> 0:35:47.480 or an alert or a ping on their phone, they 0:35:47.480 --> 0:35:50.680 could be redetained and you know, potentially deported in some way. 0:35:51.400 --> 0:35:53.960 So that that's currently how the system. So it's not 0:35:54.080 --> 0:35:57.440 for everyone. It's not as if everyone follows this exact 0:35:57.480 --> 0:36:00.239 same path, but it is true, and I think this 0:36:00.320 --> 0:36:03.480 is the big takeaway. It is true that asylum seekers 0:36:03.520 --> 0:36:07.240 today will start interacting with the US government, may start 0:36:07.280 --> 0:36:10.120 interacting with the US government on their smartphone as far 0:36:10.200 --> 0:36:14.839 south as Mexico City, and then continue to have their 0:36:14.920 --> 0:36:19.160 primary contact and interaction with the US government on their 0:36:19.160 --> 0:36:23.200 smartphone all the way through the border and to Columbus, Ohio, 0:36:23.320 --> 0:36:27.200 New York City, Seattle, Washington. So the smartphone has become 0:36:27.360 --> 0:36:30.640 effectively this kind of what I am trying to think 0:36:30.680 --> 0:36:33.560 of and conceptualize as a kind of mobile border. They 0:36:33.600 --> 0:36:36.759 never where, migrants never really arrive, and they never really leave. 0:36:37.080 --> 0:36:40.839 Yeah, it's kind of not to get too sort of 0:36:40.880 --> 0:36:43.239 I guess not conspiratory, it's their own word. But like 0:36:43.520 --> 0:36:45.719 since two thousand and one, the border has come to 0:36:45.800 --> 0:36:48.040 you more and more and more, right, and you don't 0:36:48.080 --> 0:36:49.840 have to go to the border for the border to 0:36:49.880 --> 0:36:52.160 surveil you. And we can see this in hundreds of ways. 0:36:52.560 --> 0:36:55.320 Can we backtrack a little bit, just because our listeners 0:36:55.360 --> 0:36:58.120 will be familiar with some of the human stories that 0:36:58.200 --> 0:37:02.040 surrounded the end of Title forty two. Some of those people, 0:37:02.120 --> 0:37:05.920 to my understanding, entered the United States. I'm doing heavy 0:37:05.960 --> 0:37:10.600 air quotes between ports of entry under Title forty two, 0:37:11.360 --> 0:37:17.080 but then were detained. That it is fairly obvious they 0:37:17.160 --> 0:37:19.120 thought they were being detained. It looked very much like 0:37:19.160 --> 0:37:21.960 they were being detained. They weren't allowed to leave. CBP 0:37:22.080 --> 0:37:26.600 apparently would argue that they were not detained because the 0:37:26.640 --> 0:37:31.680 conditions were wofully inadequate by their own detention policies, which 0:37:31.719 --> 0:37:34.839 don't exactly provide for luxurious conditions to begin with, And 0:37:34.960 --> 0:37:38.360 so what would the situation be for those people because 0:37:38.360 --> 0:37:42.400 they haven't They were trying, at least some people I 0:37:42.440 --> 0:37:45.160 spoke to to make CBP one appointments from a place 0:37:45.200 --> 0:37:49.360 of detention, which I don't think one can do. Maybe 0:37:49.400 --> 0:37:51.920 one can if one's not on a list or something, 0:37:51.960 --> 0:37:54.680 but you still have to get there right and you 0:37:54.719 --> 0:37:57.480 can't leave south or north to access. 0:37:57.360 --> 0:38:00.360 You have to be in Mexico to schedule and appointment 0:38:00.440 --> 0:38:01.279 on CBP one. 0:38:01.520 --> 0:38:04.680 Okay, Yeah, these guys were in between the border walls. 0:38:05.080 --> 0:38:06.840 As Jake knows better than I do. 0:38:07.160 --> 0:38:10.040 I mean the issue with being along the border, and James, 0:38:10.040 --> 0:38:13.239 you know this because I mean you're there, which cell 0:38:13.320 --> 0:38:15.520 tower you're on if you're close to the border. 0:38:16.400 --> 0:38:17.960 Oh yeah, tricky, isn't it. 0:38:18.040 --> 0:38:22.040 I got so I use T mobile. That's a free 0:38:22.200 --> 0:38:26.520 buzz marketing. But they I have roam free roaming on 0:38:26.560 --> 0:38:28.400 my phone, right, very useful in the work I do. 0:38:28.840 --> 0:38:33.480 But I remember in twenty eighteen, I was in Mexico 0:38:33.520 --> 0:38:35.279 a lot, and then I was obviously also just riding 0:38:35.280 --> 0:38:37.200 my bike a lot in places along the border, and 0:38:37.239 --> 0:38:40.000 they were like, you've been in Mexico every day this month. 0:38:40.080 --> 0:38:42.520 You don't live in America. We're going to cancel your 0:38:42.520 --> 0:38:46.280 phone contract. I had been in Mexico like some days, 0:38:46.440 --> 0:38:49.040 but they had all just think, oh, you're pinging Mexican celtoer. 0:38:49.120 --> 0:38:50.600 Yeah what I was on a bike ride, like in 0:38:50.640 --> 0:38:53.040 East County, San Diego. I wasn't in Mexico, but my 0:38:53.080 --> 0:38:56.520 phone thought, I was, so, yeah, the same thing can 0:38:56.560 --> 0:38:58.960 happen in reverse, right, You're your phone can pink American 0:38:59.000 --> 0:39:02.120 cell towers when you're in Mexico. So those people might 0:39:02.160 --> 0:39:03.920 appear to be in the US when they're not. But 0:39:04.040 --> 0:39:07.400 in that situation, they couldn't make a cbp U apployment. 0:39:07.520 --> 0:39:10.080 So I guess they're assumed to have. It's the same 0:39:10.160 --> 0:39:13.920 as if they crossed the fence somewhere else and been 0:39:13.920 --> 0:39:17.640 detained ten miles inside the United States, right, what would 0:39:17.760 --> 0:39:19.239 their process be? 0:39:21.120 --> 0:39:23.000 Yeah, So I think if we're talking about right now, 0:39:23.080 --> 0:39:26.480 this is actually really important. Is that the new rule 0:39:26.640 --> 0:39:29.799 called Circumvention of Lawful Pathways that replaced Title forty two 0:39:31.360 --> 0:39:35.000 supposed to happen like three years ago. Yeah, and it 0:39:35.520 --> 0:39:39.279 finally got passed. Basically, there were a number of court 0:39:39.360 --> 0:39:44.000 challenges in which Red States tried to keep Title forty 0:39:44.040 --> 0:39:48.600 two in place. The same states, mind you, who were 0:39:49.560 --> 0:39:54.200 very critical of COVID protections, were extremely worried about lifting 0:39:54.760 --> 0:39:57.279 the ban on people in the southern border coming in 0:39:57.480 --> 0:40:02.919 because of COVID concerns. Part of what that rulemaking did 0:40:03.360 --> 0:40:06.319 was it worked a fundamental change in the way that 0:40:06.400 --> 0:40:12.760 asylum seevers work and so like just context asylum claiming 0:40:12.800 --> 0:40:15.359 asylum is a human right, is a right guaranteed by 0:40:15.360 --> 0:40:18.520 international law, is the right guaranteed by US law that 0:40:19.040 --> 0:40:21.520 you can show up and say, hey, I am not 0:40:21.719 --> 0:40:24.880 safe in the country that I'm coming from and I 0:40:24.920 --> 0:40:27.200 need asylum in the States, and you have a right 0:40:27.239 --> 0:40:29.840 to do that, and for the US or whatever country 0:40:29.840 --> 0:40:32.160 you arrive in to process your claim and decide if 0:40:32.160 --> 0:40:36.080 it's valid or not. So one of the changes in 0:40:36.120 --> 0:40:40.799 this rule making was that they are applying what's called 0:40:40.840 --> 0:40:44.800 the government is applying a presumption of ineligibility to people 0:40:44.840 --> 0:40:48.239 seeking asylum, which means that if you did not show 0:40:48.320 --> 0:40:51.560 up in the proper manner the United States. That means 0:40:51.640 --> 0:40:54.239 if you did not use the CBP one app to 0:40:54.280 --> 0:40:57.839 claim asylum before you got to the border, and if 0:40:57.840 --> 0:41:00.480 you did not apply for asylum in every country that 0:41:00.520 --> 0:41:05.040 you traveled through along the way. If you traveled from 0:41:05.440 --> 0:41:08.360 Guatemala and you did not pay for apply for asylum 0:41:08.360 --> 0:41:10.960 in Mexico before you got to the border, you are 0:41:11.080 --> 0:41:15.400 automatically deemed ineligible and your asylum claim will be denied 0:41:15.520 --> 0:41:20.680 with no hearing, with no opportunity to say, hi, I'm 0:41:20.719 --> 0:41:25.640 here because like my husband is a police officer somewhere 0:41:25.840 --> 0:41:28.680 in Guatemala and he's trying to kill me, and I 0:41:28.680 --> 0:41:32.360 can't stay in the country, right And so that is 0:41:32.400 --> 0:41:36.080 a fundamental change in the way the law works. And 0:41:36.280 --> 0:41:39.960 that's the starting point of someone who has frost illegally 0:41:40.040 --> 0:41:43.799 not used CBP one and then is picked up's and 0:41:43.840 --> 0:41:45.680 that's new in the law in twenty twenty three. 0:41:45.880 --> 0:41:49.040 Yeah, and so they would immediately be filing like a 0:41:49.080 --> 0:41:52.840 defensive asylum application to prevent that removal. 0:41:53.600 --> 0:41:57.640 Yes, And basically at that point you're trying to argue 0:41:57.680 --> 0:42:01.560 for one of a tiny subset of exemptions, yes, which 0:42:01.600 --> 0:42:06.759 there is virtually no guidance on how to implement those exemptions, right. Like, 0:42:06.840 --> 0:42:10.280 one thing you can claim is that you cross without 0:42:10.280 --> 0:42:13.800 a CVP one appointment because you couldn't use the app 0:42:15.080 --> 0:42:18.920 The idea of trying to prove to someone at the 0:42:18.960 --> 0:42:22.920 Customs of Border Protection that you were technologically enabled to 0:42:23.040 --> 0:42:27.560 use an app seems basically impossible, given that the only 0:42:27.680 --> 0:42:31.000 proof that you have is that you didn't get the appointment, right, 0:42:31.000 --> 0:42:33.759 that you weren't able to submit it. That's not a 0:42:33.800 --> 0:42:35.920 strong record that a lawyer would like to argue on, 0:42:36.120 --> 0:42:36.839 I will tell you. 0:42:36.800 --> 0:42:37.400 As a lawyer. 0:42:40.560 --> 0:42:43.680 And so the result is basically that people who have 0:42:44.719 --> 0:42:47.960 certainly legitimate asylum claims are likely to be turned away 0:42:48.160 --> 0:42:50.480 because they didn't comply with the proper process. 0:42:50.800 --> 0:42:54.920 Yeah. Even people we heard dabig. I can't remember where 0:42:54.920 --> 0:42:59.319 it was now where Customs officials in Mexico have been 0:42:59.360 --> 0:43:03.080 threatening to do people for longer than it so they 0:43:03.080 --> 0:43:05.680 couldn't make it in time for their CBP one appointment, 0:43:05.760 --> 0:43:08.759 right that they had already made. They're gone through that 0:43:08.960 --> 0:43:11.839 arduous and bias process, made the appointment, and then people 0:43:11.920 --> 0:43:14.680 were being detained unless they paid a bribe. And then 0:43:14.760 --> 0:43:18.520 then if those people had crossed like legally in between 0:43:18.560 --> 0:43:20.200 ports of entry, that would be very harder than to 0:43:20.239 --> 0:43:22.960 prove that they could that that had happened at all, right, 0:43:23.040 --> 0:43:25.480 like what had caused him to do that? So those 0:43:25.520 --> 0:43:30.480 people are in an even more difficult scenario. If people then, 0:43:30.960 --> 0:43:34.520 through any of these processes, find themselves in a ATD 0:43:34.880 --> 0:43:39.160 alternative to detention, there are numerous ways it could be surveyed. 0:43:39.200 --> 0:43:42.600 Alston mentioned that the phone app which I think is 0:43:42.920 --> 0:43:47.280 the perhaps the most recent and most common one. Another 0:43:47.320 --> 0:43:50.279 one is ankor monitors. Right, you can get like a 0:43:50.320 --> 0:43:53.759 parole kind of ank style of ankor monitor And I 0:43:53.800 --> 0:43:56.799 know that, Jake, you've written a little bit about some 0:43:56.920 --> 0:43:59.279 of the consequences of those. Do you want to talk 0:43:59.280 --> 0:43:59.680 about that? 0:44:00.600 --> 0:44:03.520 Yeah, So, first of all, an overview of the ATV 0:44:03.680 --> 0:44:08.279 program is that there are different levels of monitoring and 0:44:08.719 --> 0:44:11.480 all of them are I think should functionally be viewed 0:44:11.480 --> 0:44:14.680 as incarceration, which is to say that you are not 0:44:15.160 --> 0:44:18.239 You've not been released from custody, just the location of 0:44:18.239 --> 0:44:23.240 your custody has been moved from a prison to somewhere 0:44:23.239 --> 0:44:26.480 out in the world where you're being surveilled and your 0:44:26.520 --> 0:44:30.759 movements are potentially tracked. But you are still in many 0:44:30.800 --> 0:44:34.160 ways as vulnerable as you would be if you're actually 0:44:34.480 --> 0:44:39.359 in a jail or a prison, and so ICE has 0:44:39.360 --> 0:44:42.680 the option to decide at their discretion which level of 0:44:42.719 --> 0:44:46.880 monitoring you get. The levels of monitoring, the highest level 0:44:47.239 --> 0:44:51.239 is an ankle bracelet or an ankle shackle, that is 0:44:51.280 --> 0:44:56.960 a GPS device that is battery power, has potentially only 0:44:57.000 --> 0:44:59.239 a few hours of charge on it, you might get 0:44:59.239 --> 0:45:01.759 a day of charge off of it, and is constantly 0:45:01.800 --> 0:45:06.000 monitoring your location and sending that location back to both 0:45:06.080 --> 0:45:12.359 ICE and to the contracting staff of BI Industries. This 0:45:12.600 --> 0:45:18.120 prison technology company, who ICE has hired as case managers, 0:45:18.160 --> 0:45:23.880 basically people who are providing support for ICE on keeping 0:45:23.920 --> 0:45:28.120 track of the usually eight to ten thousand people who 0:45:28.160 --> 0:45:31.040 are on the ankle monitor system. 0:45:32.080 --> 0:45:33.319 If you don't get quite that. 0:45:33.360 --> 0:45:35.760 High level, or if you get de escalated over time, 0:45:35.920 --> 0:45:38.000 you applied ICE and you say, hey, I've been on 0:45:38.040 --> 0:45:41.840 my ankle bracelet for like three months, I've not straight 0:45:41.840 --> 0:45:44.280 outside the area I'm supposed to go. I've always responded 0:45:44.320 --> 0:45:47.080 to check ins. Then they might bump you down to 0:45:47.120 --> 0:45:50.799 the smart Link app, also provided by BI Industries on 0:45:50.840 --> 0:45:53.799 an extremely lucrative contract. Their last contract was like two 0:45:53.800 --> 0:45:59.040 point two billion dollars. And that smart link app is 0:45:59.120 --> 0:46:01.080 either going to be loaded on your smartphone if you 0:46:01.120 --> 0:46:03.000 have a smartphone that can handle it, or you'll be 0:46:03.040 --> 0:46:07.120 given a smartphone buy ICE and told to use that 0:46:07.160 --> 0:46:11.239 smartphone to check in. You will be required to check 0:46:11.239 --> 0:46:16.239 in on a sort of regular schedule. I don't have 0:46:16.280 --> 0:46:21.440 a strong sense for how often that is. Could be daily, 0:46:21.760 --> 0:46:25.520 could be less. To check in, you're going to open 0:46:25.560 --> 0:46:27.800 the app up, it's going to ping your GPS location, 0:46:27.920 --> 0:46:30.720 send a dice, and then you're going to take official 0:46:30.760 --> 0:46:34.239 recognition photograph. That photograph will be compared to make sure 0:46:34.239 --> 0:46:38.240 that you're actually you. That photograph is also potentially capturing 0:46:38.280 --> 0:46:41.680 your surroundings, the people you live with, whoever's like in 0:46:41.719 --> 0:46:45.440 the frame, and then you can communicate with your case manager. 0:46:45.480 --> 0:46:49.319 On the app, you can potentially find information on when 0:46:49.360 --> 0:46:50.879 your immigration court hearings are. 0:46:50.960 --> 0:46:51.600 That type of thing. 0:46:52.480 --> 0:46:54.880 It's the middle level of monitoring. The lowest level of 0:46:54.920 --> 0:46:59.200 monitoring is voice print based. So basically, every once in 0:46:59.280 --> 0:47:01.960 a while, whatever or your dedicated check in time is, 0:47:02.400 --> 0:47:05.680 you're going to call into ICE on your phone. You're 0:47:05.680 --> 0:47:10.239 gonna say Hi, I'm Jake Wiener, I'm checking in, and 0:47:10.520 --> 0:47:13.080 ICE will run a voice print analysis and make sure 0:47:13.080 --> 0:47:15.279 that you are the person who say you are and 0:47:15.360 --> 0:47:16.280 confirm your location. 0:47:18.280 --> 0:47:19.400 At any point, if. 0:47:19.280 --> 0:47:25.360 That system screws up, you are potentially you're then in 0:47:25.440 --> 0:47:28.839 violation of the terms of your release. And at any 0:47:28.880 --> 0:47:32.359 point ICE, if you've there's been an error, an ICE 0:47:32.400 --> 0:47:34.720 officer can show up and take you right back to jail. 0:47:36.040 --> 0:47:39.359 Let's talk a little bit about that you've mentioned BI. Right, 0:47:39.360 --> 0:47:42.040 you've both mentioned BI. This is not a government agency, 0:47:42.160 --> 0:47:45.719 this is a contractor. But potentially they have access to 0:47:46.719 --> 0:47:52.480 your photograph, details of your asylum case and were we 0:47:53.040 --> 0:47:55.320 very clear on like certainly with the ICE issued phones, 0:47:56.120 --> 0:47:58.440 people seem to have concerns like what is being monitored 0:47:58.440 --> 0:48:00.440 and what isn't being monitored on the phone, right like, 0:48:00.560 --> 0:48:03.040 is it only when they have the app open? Is 0:48:03.120 --> 0:48:07.120 everything on their phone now subject to a review by 0:48:07.160 --> 0:48:11.040 ICE and potentially also by this third party contractor? Right? So, 0:48:11.760 --> 0:48:14.759 how are those contractors vetting their person now? How are 0:48:14.760 --> 0:48:17.960 they're making sure that these this very sensitive information is 0:48:18.080 --> 0:48:19.640 secure in private like it should be. 0:48:20.120 --> 0:48:22.960 Yeah, I have no idea how they're vetting their staff. 0:48:23.040 --> 0:48:29.200 They're not exactly forthcoming. One aspect of the surveillance that 0:48:29.239 --> 0:48:33.799 I think is worth noting is that both ICE and 0:48:33.840 --> 0:48:38.480 BI don't just have your whether you're on the smartphone 0:48:38.719 --> 0:48:41.080 or if you're on the ankle monitor. They don't just 0:48:41.120 --> 0:48:44.880 have your last GPS ping. They have your historical movements, 0:48:45.160 --> 0:48:46.840 which means if you're on an ankle monitor, they have 0:48:46.840 --> 0:48:49.200 a record of every single place you went for the 0:48:49.320 --> 0:48:51.560 entirety of the time since you've been on an ankle monitor, 0:48:51.840 --> 0:48:54.520 and they also know where you are right now a 0:48:54.520 --> 0:48:57.879 little more limited on a smartphone, but that's information that's 0:48:57.960 --> 0:49:02.680 highly sensitive. You're location and especially your historical location information 0:49:03.080 --> 0:49:05.399 and tell you all kinds of things like what church 0:49:05.480 --> 0:49:07.880 this person goes to, have they been to Planned parenthood 0:49:07.960 --> 0:49:08.440 or recently? 0:49:09.000 --> 0:49:10.200 Who do they associate with? 0:49:10.400 --> 0:49:12.839 Like what houses are they visited, and for ICE, that 0:49:12.880 --> 0:49:18.240 information is very valuable because most migrants don't live alone. 0:49:18.280 --> 0:49:20.640 They live in community with other people. Some of those 0:49:20.680 --> 0:49:24.480 people may be undocumented. And so as a migrant, you 0:49:24.560 --> 0:49:27.880 are now worrying every time you check in. Am I 0:49:28.000 --> 0:49:34.120 exposing someone who's undocumented to ICE surveillance? Am I exposing myself, 0:49:34.200 --> 0:49:38.720 you know, to just like tagging somewhere that ICE doesn't 0:49:38.760 --> 0:49:40.640 want me to be and maybe an officer is going 0:49:40.680 --> 0:49:42.520 to show up for a check Because of that, it 0:49:42.640 --> 0:49:45.719 is creating a ton of insecurity and a system that 0:49:45.800 --> 0:49:50.319 is already very insecure, and the like psychological harms of 0:49:50.320 --> 0:49:54.600 that are manifest. You know, there's good studies like internationally 0:49:56.080 --> 0:49:59.759 that your risk of suicide and depression goes way up 0:50:00.080 --> 0:50:04.919 you're on electronic monitoring, that your access to jobs goes 0:50:04.960 --> 0:50:09.160 wait out. You you know, there's stigma with wearing an 0:50:09.160 --> 0:50:14.000 ankle brace also concerns that if you take a job 0:50:14.800 --> 0:50:16.560 you won't be able to check in at your home 0:50:17.000 --> 0:50:20.120 at the appropriate time. It looks like you're absconding, right, 0:50:20.440 --> 0:50:24.440 So this level of monitoring is messing with people's lives 0:50:24.440 --> 0:50:27.040 and really fundamental and deeply cruel ways. 0:50:27.400 --> 0:50:31.040 Yeah, definitely, and these like like you talked about sort 0:50:31.040 --> 0:50:33.360 of how how your phone can make you a snitch. Like, 0:50:33.640 --> 0:50:37.160 mixed status families are very common, right, and it's fifty 0:50:37.320 --> 0:50:40.320 in migrant diaspora is so like it could be someone 0:50:40.360 --> 0:50:42.799 in your family who have a different immigration status from you, 0:50:42.920 --> 0:50:45.200 and to do what you need to do, you might 0:50:45.200 --> 0:50:47.640 be putting that person at risks. And it's a very 0:50:48.960 --> 0:50:52.239 scary thing to have that that tag on you at 0:50:52.239 --> 0:50:54.359 all times. And like you said, it's not just where 0:50:54.360 --> 0:50:57.080 you where you are, but where you've been and ice 0:50:57.640 --> 0:51:01.399 if I'm right, like they they they keep that data, right, 0:51:01.480 --> 0:51:06.160 That data isn't anonymized or sort of like destroyed. They 0:51:06.160 --> 0:51:07.640 can keep that data forever if they want to. 0:51:08.239 --> 0:51:11.440 Yes, it's inputed into their systems. 0:51:11.920 --> 0:51:15.759 And that hangs around for I think the retention period 0:51:15.800 --> 0:51:18.919 of seventy five years. Okay, yeah, great, depends a little bit. 0:51:19.360 --> 0:51:23.600 Yeah. This technology that goes into these right, that's facial recognition. 0:51:23.800 --> 0:51:26.839 I know they also have a number plate license plate 0:51:26.920 --> 0:51:29.839 in America recognition. They have. 0:51:31.239 --> 0:51:31.319 That. 0:51:31.560 --> 0:51:34.000 I'm trying to think which are other technologies they have, 0:51:34.320 --> 0:51:37.880 cell phone site simulation. A lot of that can also 0:51:37.920 --> 0:51:41.840 be transferred to local police agencies right through some of 0:51:41.840 --> 0:51:44.640 these like, they're not tech transfer programs, that's the wrong word. 0:51:44.640 --> 0:51:48.520 But some of these grants and programs that ICE and 0:51:48.560 --> 0:51:53.440 DHS more broadly has. Does that mean that local police 0:51:53.440 --> 0:51:56.400 agencies could also have access to some of this data? 0:51:56.600 --> 0:51:59.320 Yeah, So I think there's two different types of programs 0:51:59.440 --> 0:52:03.400 and it's worth breaking them apart. There are grant programs 0:52:03.600 --> 0:52:08.200 that are providing state and local police with the technology itself. Right, 0:52:08.239 --> 0:52:10.480 that's like money to buy a license plate reader and 0:52:10.719 --> 0:52:14.720 pop it out in your community. There are is also 0:52:14.800 --> 0:52:19.440 the overlap between beteral and special Department of Homeland Security 0:52:19.880 --> 0:52:24.279 ices databases the systems that they house all of this 0:52:24.320 --> 0:52:27.719 information in, and state and local police they have their 0:52:27.760 --> 0:52:32.319 own databases. Those databases are very often linked or accessible, 0:52:32.840 --> 0:52:37.080 which means that monitoring. You know, your local police department 0:52:37.320 --> 0:52:40.640 has a log of everyone and they arrest very often 0:52:40.920 --> 0:52:43.200 that log is sent to ICE and vice versa. 0:52:43.680 --> 0:52:43.919 Right. 0:52:44.320 --> 0:52:48.480 So it's one of the main ways that this has 0:52:48.520 --> 0:52:52.320 done is through fusion centers, which is basically a federally 0:52:52.360 --> 0:52:55.879 funded state run technology center embedded in state or local 0:52:55.880 --> 0:52:59.240 police departments where you have the Department of Homeland Security 0:52:59.280 --> 0:53:03.040 agents who have access to their set of databases and 0:53:03.239 --> 0:53:06.000 state and local police department officers who have access to 0:53:06.000 --> 0:53:08.239 their set of databases sitting right next to each other, 0:53:08.600 --> 0:53:10.759 and those people can then talk and be like, yo, 0:53:10.840 --> 0:53:12.760 I need you to run this search into your system, 0:53:13.360 --> 0:53:16.359 which is theoretically only for federal use, but suddenly it's 0:53:16.360 --> 0:53:19.839 getting used for state law enforcement and vice versa. One 0:53:19.840 --> 0:53:22.680 of the biggest problems with this is that cities that 0:53:22.719 --> 0:53:26.640 want to be sanctuary cities that don't want their police 0:53:26.640 --> 0:53:30.440 departments reporting and handing people over to ICE when they 0:53:30.520 --> 0:53:34.960 arrest undocumented folks, city government is unable to control their 0:53:35.000 --> 0:53:37.640 local police departments and the information that is sent to ICE. 0:53:38.000 --> 0:53:41.160 So even a sensible sanctuary cities where the city says 0:53:41.719 --> 0:53:45.040 we're not going to report this information, the way that 0:53:45.040 --> 0:53:48.839 these databases are tied together, especially license plate reader databases, 0:53:50.239 --> 0:53:52.640 but as well as arrest databases, all sorts of stuff 0:53:53.160 --> 0:53:57.600 means that the city government functionally cannot create a sanctuary city. 0:53:57.719 --> 0:54:01.720 Right which, just in if we talk about my situation, 0:54:01.760 --> 0:54:06.600 I'm in San Diego, are mayor is terrible and want 0:54:06.719 --> 0:54:09.640 to turn all our street lights into spies? Right like, 0:54:09.760 --> 0:54:12.080 put put little put little cameras on them so that 0:54:12.120 --> 0:54:15.440 they can watch what we're doing, and like this information 0:54:15.600 --> 0:54:18.680 feeds into we know exactly where the future center is actually, 0:54:18.719 --> 0:54:20.880 Like I wrote about this in twenty twenty when the 0:54:20.880 --> 0:54:23.200 cops took someone's phone and used gray key to crack 0:54:23.239 --> 0:54:26.880 it open. So like the Yeah, the exposure for people 0:54:26.920 --> 0:54:29.920 who in the US who are not citizens of the 0:54:29.960 --> 0:54:34.560 US is very high with these things. The last thing 0:54:34.600 --> 0:54:37.759 about these databases I wanted to talk about was those 0:54:37.840 --> 0:54:41.279 aren't the only databases that ICE has access to, right, 0:54:42.000 --> 0:54:44.560 can you explain how they've they've managed to acquire some 0:54:44.719 --> 0:54:47.480 data about other people and whether or not that is 0:54:47.719 --> 0:54:48.880 strictly speaking legal. 0:54:49.680 --> 0:54:53.040 Yeah, So we have a massive problem in America with 0:54:53.160 --> 0:54:57.319 data broker in which is yes, companies the biggest, the 0:54:57.360 --> 0:55:00.839 worst are Lexus and Nexus and Tops and Writers West Law. 0:55:01.560 --> 0:55:05.080 But there are hundreds and hundreds of data brokers who 0:55:06.160 --> 0:55:09.080 vacuum up all of the information that they can off 0:55:09.120 --> 0:55:13.840 the Internet, off of utility records, off of publicly available information, 0:55:14.600 --> 0:55:19.120 and basically make massive databases that are tracking to the 0:55:19.120 --> 0:55:21.240 best that they can at every aspect of people's lives. 0:55:21.680 --> 0:55:24.239 Credit reporting agencies, the people who like give you your 0:55:24.280 --> 0:55:27.839 credit score, are also data brokers. They're pulling in all 0:55:27.840 --> 0:55:31.600 this information so that they can assign you your credit 0:55:31.600 --> 0:55:33.640 which is like where your credit cards are, how much 0:55:33.640 --> 0:55:36.719 money you have. All this information is super valuable, right, 0:55:36.840 --> 0:55:43.640 and it's valuable to advertisers. It's valuable, yeah, like for marketing, 0:55:43.680 --> 0:55:48.560 but it's also really valuable for law enforcement because you 0:55:48.640 --> 0:55:53.960 have everything from like addresses where people are spending money. 0:55:54.000 --> 0:55:57.160 Often you can pull from advertising like phone advertising data, 0:55:57.200 --> 0:56:02.239 people's GPS location, and a number of these services have 0:56:03.120 --> 0:56:08.040 sold access to ICE, both like Thompson, Ridge Is Clear 0:56:08.280 --> 0:56:13.040 Lexis Nexus has several products that they sell to ICE, 0:56:13.280 --> 0:56:16.080 as well as locate x which is now Babble Street, 0:56:16.400 --> 0:56:22.440 which is specifically a GPS location company. And ICE has 0:56:22.440 --> 0:56:27.040 basically managed to obtain through contracts information that they could 0:56:27.040 --> 0:56:31.040 not legally obtain through a warrant, right, which is to 0:56:31.080 --> 0:56:35.080 say that if you a police officer and ICE officer 0:56:35.760 --> 0:56:38.400 want to get information on a single person, you know 0:56:38.440 --> 0:56:41.799 you want their GPS location off their phone, you need 0:56:41.800 --> 0:56:45.360 to go to a court and say, hey, I'm looking 0:56:45.360 --> 0:56:47.799 for James Stout and I think that he committed a 0:56:47.840 --> 0:56:51.560 crime or an immigration he brook immigration law. Here's my evidence. 0:56:51.640 --> 0:56:55.279 I need a warrant. You cannot get a warrant for 0:56:55.520 --> 0:56:59.320 mass monitoring. That's like a fundamental part of how the 0:56:59.360 --> 0:57:01.920 Fourth Amendment US Constitution works is that it has to 0:57:01.960 --> 0:57:07.359 be individualized or very close to individualized. But there is 0:57:07.400 --> 0:57:12.000 currently no law that says that ICE can't just go 0:57:12.040 --> 0:57:14.920 buy the information on the open market and completely evade 0:57:14.920 --> 0:57:18.400 the warrant requirement. So that's what's going on with Lexus 0:57:18.440 --> 0:57:22.280 and Nexus, with locate Acts as well as some social 0:57:22.360 --> 0:57:23.640 media surveillance companies. 0:57:24.040 --> 0:57:26.600 Right, yeah, are the same database is that I as 0:57:26.640 --> 0:57:30.560 a journalist use when I'm you know, wondering if this 0:57:30.720 --> 0:57:33.800 Nazi is still living in this place, or you know, 0:57:34.040 --> 0:57:37.040 finding the sense of Confederate veterans to check if they 0:57:37.120 --> 0:57:40.960 still work at the Citadel University. So I think a 0:57:40.960 --> 0:57:42.600 good way to finish this up will be to talk 0:57:42.640 --> 0:57:46.600 about once you're in, you've gone through this process, right, 0:57:46.680 --> 0:57:50.800 you've CVP one, you've at d'd, and you enter into 0:57:50.960 --> 0:57:54.760 sort of the asylum hearing or you have your your 0:57:54.800 --> 0:57:58.760 various different asylum processes. Can Austin, can you give us 0:57:58.800 --> 0:58:03.080 a very broad overview of like the likelihood of success 0:58:03.240 --> 0:58:05.520 and maybe a couple of I know you're very good 0:58:05.560 --> 0:58:09.320 at monitoring the factors that determine the likelihood of success 0:58:09.320 --> 0:58:12.320 in an asylum application through TRACK. This is a great 0:58:12.320 --> 0:58:15.880 place to plug track if you want to. Can you 0:58:15.920 --> 0:58:19.680 talk about like how likely folks are to be successful 0:58:19.680 --> 0:58:21.360 in that asylum application process? 0:58:22.120 --> 0:58:26.400 Yeah, So we monitor this federal data related to immigration 0:58:26.680 --> 0:58:31.040 other areas through TRACK Transactional Records Access Clearinghouse at Syracuse 0:58:31.120 --> 0:58:32.440 University where I'm at. 0:58:32.680 --> 0:58:34.880 I'm also a research fellow at American University. 0:58:34.920 --> 0:58:36.640 So we have a kind of a fun partnership right 0:58:36.640 --> 0:58:42.880 now looking at different angles of connecting data to research 0:58:43.040 --> 0:58:47.640 on Latin American Latino migrants. And so we keep really 0:58:47.640 --> 0:58:50.520 close track of what's happening with the immigration courts. We 0:58:50.600 --> 0:58:54.200 don't get data. Remember earlier I described as two tracks 0:58:54.200 --> 0:58:58.120 of seeking asylum. We don't currently get data on that 0:58:58.600 --> 0:59:02.320 first track where people go through asylum. Officers at USCIS 0:59:03.000 --> 0:59:07.600 were interested in it, but they actually publish not comprehensive, 0:59:07.640 --> 0:59:11.480 but they published decent amount of data. We would certainly 0:59:11.480 --> 0:59:13.920 like to get more, but it's the immigration courts that 0:59:13.960 --> 0:59:16.600 we have focused very heavily on for the last decade, 0:59:16.640 --> 0:59:19.160 I would say. And so we get very detailed, granular 0:59:19.240 --> 0:59:21.560 data from the immigration courts on a monthly basis that 0:59:21.600 --> 0:59:24.960 allows us to see exactly what's happening. I would say 0:59:25.000 --> 0:59:29.360 currently the success rate denial rate, however you want to 0:59:29.400 --> 0:59:32.920 put it in immigration court for asylum seekers is about 0:59:33.040 --> 0:59:37.000 fifty two or fifty three percent get denied, about forty 0:59:37.040 --> 0:59:42.000 seven to forty eight percent are granted asylum, but that 0:59:42.120 --> 0:59:47.480 varies widely by immigration court and by nationality. So migrants 0:59:47.480 --> 0:59:51.000 from Central America, El Salvadorjundara, Squatemala tend to have much 0:59:51.040 --> 0:59:55.280 higher denial rates seventy eighty percent, ninety percent, where as 0:59:55.760 --> 1:00:04.200 nationals from let's say Ukraine, China, some other countries, Cuba 1:00:04.480 --> 1:00:07.200 have very high success rates. Haiti actually is a good 1:00:07.200 --> 1:00:09.720 example of a country that has very low grant rates, 1:00:09.800 --> 1:00:15.080 very high denial rates, even though much like northern Mexico, 1:00:15.480 --> 1:00:18.120 where we actually send people that we deport very often, 1:00:18.440 --> 1:00:20.160 there are all kinds of travel warnings. 1:00:20.400 --> 1:00:22.360 You know, the United States government does not. 1:00:22.320 --> 1:00:24.320 Want people going to Haiti because it's too dangerous, but 1:00:24.320 --> 1:00:27.040 we don't even have a problem deporting people back there 1:00:27.040 --> 1:00:30.400 who are seeking asylum, right and so that's what we've 1:00:30.400 --> 1:00:32.640 seen in recent years. The denial rate was as high 1:00:32.680 --> 1:00:36.800 as seventy percent during the Trump administration, and so it's 1:00:36.800 --> 1:00:39.600 certainly much better under the Biden administration. I do want 1:00:39.640 --> 1:00:44.080 to say though, that in addition to sort of policy 1:00:44.600 --> 1:00:51.080 related issues that may drive this factor, geographic concerns, people 1:00:51.120 --> 1:00:53.720 are much more successful in New York City than say 1:00:53.840 --> 1:00:56.040 Houston or Atlanta, Georgia. 1:00:57.360 --> 1:00:59.240 But one of the really. 1:00:59.040 --> 1:01:01.680 Important factors here is, in addition to all of that, 1:01:02.720 --> 1:01:06.160 there's a threshold question, which is a lot of people, 1:01:06.320 --> 1:01:08.520 including a lot of people who are recently arriving to 1:01:08.560 --> 1:01:13.040 the United States, if they can't get an attorney, it's 1:01:13.200 --> 1:01:16.000 very unlikely that they will even be able to file 1:01:16.080 --> 1:01:18.760 in the sylum application in the first place. So that's 1:01:18.760 --> 1:01:22.000 fifty you know, that forty eight percent rant rate is 1:01:22.000 --> 1:01:26.400 for people who file in the sylum application. We're not seeing, 1:01:27.240 --> 1:01:29.560 you know, the people who don't even who aren't even 1:01:29.640 --> 1:01:32.080 able to file in the silum application in the first place. 1:01:32.320 --> 1:01:36.160 And one of the most concerning things recent developments is 1:01:36.200 --> 1:01:40.280 that the Biden administration, I think not for no reason 1:01:40.320 --> 1:01:42.440 at all. I mean, there's two point two million pending 1:01:42.440 --> 1:01:45.400 cases in the immigration course right now. The Biden administration 1:01:45.520 --> 1:01:48.560 is trying to push cases too faster. This is something 1:01:48.640 --> 1:01:52.439 the Obama Innistry administration tried Trump administration tried it, Biden 1:01:52.480 --> 1:01:55.680 administration tried it, and every single time the cases get accelerated, 1:01:56.760 --> 1:02:00.360 including a large number of family cases. Unfortunately, they simply 1:02:00.400 --> 1:02:03.560 don't have time to get an attorney and file a 1:02:03.600 --> 1:02:07.000 good stylent application. So what we're seeing as an addition 1:02:07.120 --> 1:02:10.840 to like geography, nationality, does someone get an attorney. It's 1:02:10.840 --> 1:02:14.200 also speed, just how fast the cases go through. And 1:02:14.240 --> 1:02:17.640 the reality is if you try to force an asylum 1:02:17.720 --> 1:02:21.680 case through the immigration courts or frankly even through USAIS 1:02:21.720 --> 1:02:25.200 in a matter of weeks, people are just not going 1:02:25.280 --> 1:02:29.160 to win. You can't speed things up and maintain a 1:02:29.160 --> 1:02:29.800 fair system. 1:02:29.880 --> 1:02:30.480 You just can't. 1:02:30.640 --> 1:02:34.520 It's also not great for people to wait, you know, five, six, seven, 1:02:34.560 --> 1:02:36.760 eight years for a hearing or for a conclusion. 1:02:36.880 --> 1:02:38.160 So that's not ideal either. 1:02:38.680 --> 1:02:41.760 But you know, trying to force cases through and you 1:02:41.800 --> 1:02:44.640 know two or three months is just doesn't work. 1:02:45.040 --> 1:02:47.280 Yeah, I've spoken to Peeve. I spoke to a friend 1:02:47.320 --> 1:02:49.800 a couple of weeks ago who was saying that now 1:02:49.840 --> 1:02:52.240 he's seeing people newly. Right, he's been in the United 1:02:52.320 --> 1:02:55.040 States for a few years. I've gone through the process, 1:02:55.080 --> 1:02:57.280 but he's seeing people come in and the amount to 1:02:57.320 --> 1:02:58.760 pay for a lawyer if they want to get a 1:02:58.760 --> 1:03:02.560 private lawyer is going up, and like if people only 1:03:02.600 --> 1:03:04.560 have a few months or don't have the right to work, 1:03:04.600 --> 1:03:08.800 there's just no way for them to obtain that much money. 1:03:09.160 --> 1:03:11.840 And then the people who are doing it sort of 1:03:12.360 --> 1:03:15.880 I guess sort of in for nonprofits are just overwhelmed 1:03:16.520 --> 1:03:19.760 by the amount of demand. So yeah, those people are 1:03:19.760 --> 1:03:20.920 in a really tough situation. 1:03:21.880 --> 1:03:23.680 Yeah, I think we should talk a little bit about 1:03:23.680 --> 1:03:26.640 the fundamental unfairness of this system. 1:03:26.960 --> 1:03:27.200 Yep. 1:03:27.960 --> 1:03:32.560 So, like immigration judges are administrative law judges. They are 1:03:33.160 --> 1:03:38.080 not like real judges approved by Congress. They are hired 1:03:38.080 --> 1:03:41.720 by an administrative agency, which effectively means that there are 1:03:41.920 --> 1:03:46.800 much lower bars to who can be an administrative law judge. 1:03:46.960 --> 1:03:49.720 You also, as an immigrant, do not have a right 1:03:49.760 --> 1:03:52.840 to an attorney sitting in front of an administrative law judge. 1:03:53.160 --> 1:03:55.439 And one of the things that the data throws out 1:03:55.560 --> 1:03:59.200 is that in every aspect of the system, having an 1:03:59.240 --> 1:04:03.520 attorney is the strongest indicator of a good result. So 1:04:04.040 --> 1:04:07.240 that's like how likely peopot people are to know about 1:04:07.280 --> 1:04:11.400 their appointments. It's actually extremely hard if you are someone 1:04:11.400 --> 1:04:15.720 who does not speak English and has limited money and 1:04:15.880 --> 1:04:19.920 limited access to the system. And frankly does not understand 1:04:20.200 --> 1:04:24.040 how the American immigration law system works, which is reasonable 1:04:24.120 --> 1:04:28.640 because virtually no one understands how it works. It's really 1:04:28.720 --> 1:04:30.760 difficult to know, Like when you have a court take 1:04:31.160 --> 1:04:33.919 much less to show up and to understand what kind 1:04:33.960 --> 1:04:37.000 of information that you need to collect and present to 1:04:37.040 --> 1:04:40.360 a judge that will be convincing to this person, who 1:04:40.400 --> 1:04:43.120 again is not an Article three judge that's been appointed 1:04:43.160 --> 1:04:45.520 by Congress, not the type of judges that you or 1:04:45.560 --> 1:04:48.439 I would have our cases heard by if we were 1:04:48.640 --> 1:04:53.760 arrested or if we just like file the lawsuit. And 1:04:53.880 --> 1:04:56.680 so access to a judge is like the number one 1:04:56.760 --> 1:04:59.880 best indicator for whether your asylum claim is going to 1:04:59.880 --> 1:05:02.320 be be successful or not, or any kind of claim 1:05:02.320 --> 1:05:05.880 and the immigration system, frankly, and we do not provide 1:05:05.920 --> 1:05:08.120 that to people who don't have the money to hire 1:05:08.120 --> 1:05:08.880 a lawyer. 1:05:09.040 --> 1:05:11.880 Yeah, which is fundamentally unjust right. 1:05:12.680 --> 1:05:15.080 We also there's like not a guarantee that you will 1:05:15.080 --> 1:05:18.440 have a quality translator. Yes see, you will be able 1:05:18.440 --> 1:05:20.840 to show up to court and at all understand what 1:05:21.000 --> 1:05:25.000 is happening in your legal case, which is a huge 1:05:25.040 --> 1:05:27.600 barrier to be able to get a good results to 1:05:27.600 --> 1:05:31.160 be able to communicate who you are and why you 1:05:32.080 --> 1:05:34.680 will not be safe if you are deported from the country. 1:05:34.480 --> 1:05:37.800 Right, Yeah, we heard that in May where they were 1:05:37.880 --> 1:05:40.480 like they were basically asking if anyone could come and 1:05:40.520 --> 1:05:44.440 help trans migrant advocacy groups. You know, does someone speak Comanagi, 1:05:44.560 --> 1:05:48.880 does someone speak Turkish? You know, just does someone speak Vietnamese? 1:05:49.280 --> 1:05:50.800 Could they come down and help this person with their 1:05:50.840 --> 1:05:55.360 initial interview? Which it's just not a not a just 1:05:55.560 --> 1:05:58.680 or refrom reasonable way to do these things. But yes, 1:05:59.000 --> 1:06:01.120 that's where it's out right now. I guess I think 1:06:01.120 --> 1:06:03.520 most people probably aren't aware of much of that, so 1:06:03.560 --> 1:06:06.320 it's good to explain how fundamentally and jest it is. 1:06:07.120 --> 1:06:10.080 So if people want to learn more about this, if 1:06:10.120 --> 1:06:11.880 people want to follow along, I know you both do 1:06:12.000 --> 1:06:14.800 some writing online. Where can they find you and where 1:06:14.800 --> 1:06:16.480 can they find more of your writing about this? 1:06:17.520 --> 1:06:18.880 Yeah, so you. 1:06:18.760 --> 1:06:22.160 Can find my writing on the Electronic Privacy Information Center 1:06:22.200 --> 1:06:25.000 EPICS website that is EPIC dot org. You can find 1:06:25.040 --> 1:06:28.240 me and my one hundred and fifty followers on Twitter 1:06:28.320 --> 1:06:31.760 at at real Jake Wiener that's w I E n 1:06:31.800 --> 1:06:37.320 e R. And hopefully in the near future you'll be 1:06:37.320 --> 1:06:38.880 able to find some scholarship for me as well. 1:06:39.360 --> 1:06:42.360 Oh cool, Yeah, using the Donald Trump Twitter format. Great. 1:06:44.280 --> 1:06:46.640 How about you, Austin, where can people find you? You 1:06:46.680 --> 1:06:48.680 have many more followers on Twitter dot com. 1:06:49.520 --> 1:06:53.520 Yeah, so it's Austin Cooper. Last name is koc h 1:06:53.640 --> 1:06:56.600 e er. Peculiarity of that name is in my favorite 1:06:56.600 --> 1:07:00.320 because you know, pretty easy to search. But actually this 1:07:00.360 --> 1:07:02.960 is great timing. I just had an article published this week, 1:07:03.400 --> 1:07:06.560 detailed one on CBP one. It's called Glitches and the 1:07:06.600 --> 1:07:11.000 Digitization of Asylum. It's an academic article, but it is 1:07:11.200 --> 1:07:14.440 open access, so there's no paywall there. Glitches and the 1:07:14.480 --> 1:07:17.200 Digitization of Asylum. It's also up on my Twitter page. 1:07:17.480 --> 1:07:20.960 I'm on Twitter at ac Coker, so a c k 1:07:21.080 --> 1:07:23.640 O c h e R. And I also write pretty 1:07:23.680 --> 1:07:27.480 regularly on substack, and that's like a weird thing to say. 1:07:27.520 --> 1:07:30.320 I'm slightly embarrassed to mention it, except that I'm not 1:07:30.680 --> 1:07:35.360 because this academic article emerged actually out of stuff that 1:07:35.400 --> 1:07:39.240 I was initially exploring on substack. So I really loved 1:07:39.360 --> 1:07:42.280 that format for writing because it's given me a chance 1:07:42.320 --> 1:07:45.960 to work out concepts and ideas before they even go 1:07:46.160 --> 1:07:49.200 into like pure ifew print. So if people want to 1:07:49.200 --> 1:07:51.320 get ahead of the curve on what I'm thinking, go 1:07:51.400 --> 1:07:53.920 check that out too. Nice and don't forget to visit 1:07:54.040 --> 1:07:58.240 track t R A C dot, s y R dot 1:07:58.400 --> 1:08:01.760 ed U to get all kinds of data on immigration courts, 1:08:02.120 --> 1:08:05.200 alternatives to detention, detention statistics and so forth. 1:08:05.440 --> 1:08:07.640 Yeah, I like try this Telegram channel as well. Right, 1:08:07.640 --> 1:08:10.160 it's like the only time I can go on Telegram, 1:08:10.160 --> 1:08:12.800 I don't see dead people, So I appreciate it for that. 1:08:12.800 --> 1:08:15.640 That's right. We put stuff out on Telegram and WhatsApp too, 1:08:16.280 --> 1:08:18.400 So if you don't want to have to be on Twitter, 1:08:18.560 --> 1:08:20.280 if you don't want to have to get an email 1:08:20.360 --> 1:08:22.640 on something like that, you just want to get a 1:08:22.680 --> 1:08:25.440 little if you like some of those other messaging platforms. 1:08:25.439 --> 1:08:29.160 We have announcement threads on there. You can't interact, you 1:08:29.280 --> 1:08:32.000 just you just get the little notification. But we try 1:08:32.040 --> 1:08:35.040 that we try to diversify as much as possible, especially 1:08:35.040 --> 1:08:37.479 with the muscification of Twitter. 1:08:37.960 --> 1:08:40.120 Yeah, yeah, I think that's pretty a good move. Thank 1:08:40.120 --> 1:08:41.560 you very much for your time both to you. I 1:08:41.640 --> 1:09:00.519 really appreciate it. That was very insightful. Thank you, James. Hello, 1:09:01.160 --> 1:09:04.720 welcome to the podcast. It could happen here. It's me 1:09:05.120 --> 1:09:10.280 James and Scharene today. Hi Serene, Hi James, Hi Sarene. Yeah, 1:09:10.320 --> 1:09:13.879 it's it's lovely to have you. Thanks for introducing yourself. 1:09:14.960 --> 1:09:17.200 A little confused, but he always talking to you. 1:09:18.280 --> 1:09:20.559 I've done podcasts for a long time and I never 1:09:20.640 --> 1:09:23.080 actually know how to introduce myself. But I'm really happy 1:09:23.080 --> 1:09:25.200 to be doing this episode with you because you're a 1:09:25.280 --> 1:09:26.879 very good episode partner. 1:09:27.479 --> 1:09:29.360 Thank you, Sreen. I am also happy to beating this 1:09:29.360 --> 1:09:31.360 episode with you. I think you're an excellent episode partner. 1:09:31.680 --> 1:09:33.599 What are we talking about that just because I said it? 1:09:33.920 --> 1:09:37.720 No, I like him. It's good, it's good. Do we 1:09:38.120 --> 1:09:39.200 help people learn things? 1:09:40.840 --> 1:09:44.400 Well, today you're going to learn some more things about Palestine. 1:09:44.520 --> 1:09:46.599 It's been a minute since we had an update, and 1:09:47.040 --> 1:09:50.760 I mean, surprise, surprise, things aren't good. So we're going 1:09:50.800 --> 1:09:53.880 to talk about some recent stuff that's been happening. There's 1:09:54.400 --> 1:09:57.360 we mentioned some stuff that we've mentioned before in other episodes, 1:09:57.400 --> 1:10:01.040 like the Nekaba or just the ethnic cleansing that happened 1:10:01.040 --> 1:10:04.840 in nineteen forty eight. Also some politics stuff. So if 1:10:04.880 --> 1:10:07.200 you are interested in getting more detail and you haven't 1:10:07.240 --> 1:10:09.720 listened to those, I would recommend listening to those just 1:10:09.760 --> 1:10:11.519 for more context if you desire. 1:10:12.280 --> 1:10:14.720 But yeah, yeah, I think you're diving in probably at 1:10:14.760 --> 1:10:17.160 the deep end if if you start here. But we're 1:10:17.200 --> 1:10:19.799 going to dive in at the deep end. So earlier 1:10:19.840 --> 1:10:23.080 this month, Omar Katten twenty seven, a father of two 1:10:23.160 --> 1:10:26.240 children who worked as an electrician for the local municipality, 1:10:26.600 --> 1:10:29.800 was killed when about four hundred Israeli settlers marched down 1:10:30.320 --> 1:10:34.320 thaumas Aya's main road, selling cars, homes, crops and trees 1:10:34.360 --> 1:10:37.200 ablaze as they went. It's not clear if you're shot 1:10:37.240 --> 1:10:40.679 by IDF troops or settlers of both stormed the village 1:10:40.720 --> 1:10:46.200 carrying weapons. Under international law, Israeli settlement to illegal, however, 1:10:46.320 --> 1:10:48.759 it's really Prime Minister of Benjamin net and Yahoo announced 1:10:48.760 --> 1:10:50.840 plans to build a thousand new housing units in the 1:10:50.880 --> 1:10:53.640 settlement of Eli in response to the deadly shooting of 1:10:53.680 --> 1:10:56.960 for Israelis by two Palestinian gunmen on Tuesday, the twentieth 1:10:57.040 --> 1:11:00.800 of June. The suspected assailants were late killed. One of 1:11:00.840 --> 1:11:04.760 them was quote unquote neutralized by civilian the other by 1:11:04.800 --> 1:11:08.040 the IDEF. But it appears the plan is to place 1:11:08.080 --> 1:11:11.080 the whole nation again. Our auntwer to terror is, to 1:11:11.080 --> 1:11:13.320 strike it hard and to build our country. Net Yeah, 1:11:13.320 --> 1:11:16.599 who said his right wing government is dominated by settler 1:11:16.680 --> 1:11:19.559 leaders and supporters. But his statements came just days after 1:11:19.600 --> 1:11:22.280 the government gave far right finance minister there's a little 1:11:22.280 --> 1:11:25.960 smotorridge sweeping powers to exploit the construction of legal settlements 1:11:26.200 --> 1:11:28.439 by passing masses that have been in place for almost 1:11:28.479 --> 1:11:32.200 twenty seven years. The violence in thaumas ayah Am I 1:11:32.280 --> 1:11:33.160 saying that, right. 1:11:33.320 --> 1:11:37.599 I just looked it up. Yeah, totumos Aya is it's 1:11:37.640 --> 1:11:40.120 a town in the West Bank for context people that 1:11:40.200 --> 1:11:44.639 don't know, so, yeah, it's it's in the Ramola and 1:11:45.400 --> 1:11:47.080 LB the governor in the West Bank. 1:11:47.240 --> 1:11:48.880 Yeah, I'm going to get a little bit more into 1:11:48.920 --> 1:11:51.120 it of why this is all happening. We just wanted 1:11:51.160 --> 1:11:54.280 to kind of paint the picture for you first of 1:11:54.320 --> 1:11:56.120 all of the big events that have happened. I guess. 1:11:57.640 --> 1:12:00.960 So this violence against the people of this town and 1:12:01.000 --> 1:12:04.519 the shooting of Forestraelis followed an incursion by the IDF 1:12:04.600 --> 1:12:08.000 and Israeli border forces into the Genine refugee camp. It 1:12:08.000 --> 1:12:11.040 was an operational scale not seen for decades. So did 1:12:11.080 --> 1:12:14.280 you tear gus s Dun grenades and an attack helicopter. 1:12:14.520 --> 1:12:18.000 Seven Palestinians were killed, nearly one hundred were wounded. 1:12:18.080 --> 1:12:19.880 And I feel like this is not the first time. 1:12:20.000 --> 1:12:22.599 If you've been following any Palestinian news that you've heard 1:12:22.640 --> 1:12:26.679 of Janine the refugee camp, or that it's being attacked, 1:12:27.000 --> 1:12:29.160 it might sound familiar. I'll get into it more later, 1:12:29.240 --> 1:12:33.880 but Sharene abou Ocle was actually killed while reporting there. 1:12:34.479 --> 1:12:37.200 So I want to get into just why exactly Israel 1:12:37.280 --> 1:12:40.880 keeps raiding the Janine refugee camp in particular, and I 1:12:40.920 --> 1:12:43.880 want to talk about the camp's history, why it's getting targeted, 1:12:44.040 --> 1:12:47.040 and why the latest raid was different than the ones 1:12:47.080 --> 1:12:51.800 before it. Janine is slowly becoming a symbol of Palestinian resistance. 1:12:51.960 --> 1:12:54.960 It was originally established in nineteen fifty three to house 1:12:55.000 --> 1:12:58.160 Palestinians who were ethnically cleansed during the Nekaba of nineteen 1:12:58.200 --> 1:13:01.920 forty eight, which force seven hundred and fifty thousand people 1:13:01.920 --> 1:13:04.519 from their homes in order to make way for the 1:13:04.640 --> 1:13:07.240 establishment of Israel. And again we've talked about this in 1:13:07.280 --> 1:13:09.800 other episode. You want to revisit those but essentially he 1:13:09.880 --> 1:13:13.760 was just a very perfect example of ethnic cleansing and massacres, 1:13:13.760 --> 1:13:18.559 in genocide and displacement. So the camp has seen much 1:13:18.680 --> 1:13:21.400 unrest over the decades, and it was nearly destroyed in 1:13:21.400 --> 1:13:24.639 two thousand and two when Israeli soldiers ambushed it during 1:13:24.680 --> 1:13:28.840 the Second Antifada. According to a Human Rights Watch investigation, 1:13:29.080 --> 1:13:32.479 at least fifty two Palestinians, including women and children, were 1:13:32.560 --> 1:13:36.280 killed during this period of time. In two thousand and two, 1:13:36.320 --> 1:13:38.880 during the Second Anthi Fada, there were also at least 1:13:38.880 --> 1:13:42.000 twenty three Israeli soldiers killed and several others injured that 1:13:42.040 --> 1:13:47.280 were reported. And since then, Janine has recently seen intensifying 1:13:47.320 --> 1:13:51.599 attacks by Israeli forces, especially since twenty twenty one, and 1:13:51.920 --> 1:13:55.120 it has slowly, along with Gaza, become a major symbol 1:13:55.160 --> 1:13:59.800 of Palestinian resistance. At this point, Palestinians are really fed 1:13:59.880 --> 1:14:03.280 up up with the enaction of the Palestinian Authority the PA, 1:14:03.720 --> 1:14:07.120 which is the government entity meant to oversee and quote 1:14:07.160 --> 1:14:11.920 unquote protect the Palestinians within its governance. The Palistine Authority 1:14:12.160 --> 1:14:15.240 was formed in nineteen ninety four following the Gaza Jericho 1:14:15.320 --> 1:14:18.439 Agreement between the PLO and the Government of Israel, and 1:14:18.479 --> 1:14:21.960 it was only intended to be a five year interim body. 1:14:22.680 --> 1:14:25.479 Further negotiations were then meant to take place between the 1:14:25.479 --> 1:14:29.800 two parties regarding its final status. According to the Oslo Accords, 1:14:29.840 --> 1:14:33.719 the Palestinian Authority was designated to have exclusive control over 1:14:33.760 --> 1:14:38.120 both security related and civilian issues in the Palestinian urban areas, 1:14:38.360 --> 1:14:41.880 which are referred to as Area A, and only Palestinian 1:14:41.920 --> 1:14:46.000 control over Palestinian rural areas, which is called Area B. 1:14:47.080 --> 1:14:50.679 The remainder of the territories, including Israeli settlement, the Jordan 1:14:50.760 --> 1:14:54.960 Valley region and bypass roads between Palestinian communities, were to 1:14:55.040 --> 1:14:59.920 remain under Israeli control aka Area C. East Jerusalem was 1:15:00.040 --> 1:15:05.120 excluded from the accords. Negotiations with several Israeli governments had 1:15:05.200 --> 1:15:08.240 resulted in the Authority gaining further control in some areas, 1:15:08.240 --> 1:15:11.080 but that control was then lost in some areas when 1:15:11.160 --> 1:15:15.840 Israel retook several strategic positions during the Second Antifaba. At 1:15:15.840 --> 1:15:20.000 this point, the Palestine Authority is an authoritarian regime that 1:15:20.080 --> 1:15:23.640 has not held elections in over fifteen years, and it 1:15:23.680 --> 1:15:26.559 doesn't really stand in the way of the Israeli government 1:15:26.600 --> 1:15:31.280 and the crimes they commit. So what concerns Israel is 1:15:31.320 --> 1:15:35.479 that in Janine and elsewhere. Young Palestinians are increasingly taking 1:15:35.600 --> 1:15:38.439 up arms because they see no other way out of 1:15:38.479 --> 1:15:41.840 the pressure of occupation, and they're very disillusioned with the 1:15:42.840 --> 1:15:45.120 ineffectiveness of the Palestinian authority. 1:15:45.640 --> 1:15:49.040 Yeah, I think that's a really important way too. Like 1:15:49.120 --> 1:15:52.720 when we talk about like especially Palestinian people taking up arms, 1:15:52.760 --> 1:15:55.320 right or expecting these new groups which have come in 1:15:55.320 --> 1:15:59.080 the last couple of years, Right, there's that Lions Day group. 1:15:59.120 --> 1:16:03.840 I think they're more like nobles. Janine Brigades is another one. 1:16:04.400 --> 1:16:07.439 It's in the context of like government failure or state 1:16:07.439 --> 1:16:11.519 failure in I guess when we look at like the 1:16:11.520 --> 1:16:16.120 formation of states, right, when there's the it's called social contracts, 1:16:16.120 --> 1:16:19.599 the area, right, the idea that when we go and consent, 1:16:19.760 --> 1:16:22.479 which we don't do, but we don't ever, like we 1:16:22.520 --> 1:16:24.720 don't have a chance to consent to being in a state, right, 1:16:24.720 --> 1:16:27.559 like very obviously if you're from Palestine, you're aware of this, 1:16:28.520 --> 1:16:30.160 Like we were supposed to give up some of our 1:16:30.200 --> 1:16:34.280 freedom and get some security, but the Palestinian authority has 1:16:34.320 --> 1:16:38.680 repeatedly failed to protect people in Geneine right and in 1:16:38.720 --> 1:16:43.320 lots of other places too, and so like this response, 1:16:43.720 --> 1:16:46.439 like this response is taking up aren't is in the 1:16:46.479 --> 1:16:48.720 context of state failure, right, Like people are trying to 1:16:48.760 --> 1:16:51.479 protect their own communities when there's been a complete failure 1:16:51.520 --> 1:16:53.720 by the people who are supposed to protect them, the 1:16:53.760 --> 1:16:57.000 people who is and that's both the PA and then 1:16:57.160 --> 1:17:00.439 like the broader the international community is kind of a 1:17:00.439 --> 1:17:04.760 pointless phrase. It doesn't really mean anything. But like international 1:17:04.840 --> 1:17:07.320 law is also a pointless phrase. It doesn't really mean anything, 1:17:08.200 --> 1:17:13.200 which I'm getting too far afield here, but like the 1:17:13.280 --> 1:17:15.679 amount of times people in my replies on Twitter will 1:17:15.720 --> 1:17:18.559 be like, this is against international law, and like are 1:17:18.600 --> 1:17:21.519 you going to go and fucking enforce it? Then? Good? 1:17:21.600 --> 1:17:23.120 Like guess if that matter is at that point, Yeah, 1:17:23.120 --> 1:17:23.720 it's just so good. 1:17:24.000 --> 1:17:27.120 It doesn't matter, like what we know it's bad. I 1:17:27.160 --> 1:17:29.320 don't like, that's not what's up for debate? That what's 1:17:29.520 --> 1:17:31.040 for debates? What the fuck are you going to do 1:17:31.080 --> 1:17:32.519 about it? How are you going to stop it? And 1:17:32.600 --> 1:17:34.680 like these people have decided that the way they're going 1:17:34.720 --> 1:17:36.760 to stop it is by taking up arms, and like, 1:17:37.560 --> 1:17:42.240 evidently Israel sees them as terrorists. Evidently there are some 1:17:43.040 --> 1:17:46.240 groups inside Palestine who have killed civilians and done shit, 1:17:46.320 --> 1:17:51.200 which is is you know, like, it's not very nice. Also, 1:17:51.240 --> 1:17:55.519 the idea of killed civilians all the time, right, one 1:17:55.600 --> 1:18:01.479 of them is funded and armed by your taxes, and 1:18:01.800 --> 1:18:07.040 so like, yeah, it's it's an understandable response. And the 1:18:07.080 --> 1:18:09.760 response of the IDF is to sort of paint the 1:18:09.760 --> 1:18:14.920 whole of Janine as harboring quote unquoite terrorists, right, which 1:18:14.960 --> 1:18:18.400 which is, and then to do these attacks which often 1:18:18.640 --> 1:18:23.440 cause civilian casualties, which is not that distinct from suggesting 1:18:23.520 --> 1:18:28.559 that Israel is a terrorist state, right, and then attacking Israel, 1:18:28.640 --> 1:18:30.679 which like, but one of these things is more broadly 1:18:30.680 --> 1:18:34.200 condemned is terrorism, and one is not as broadly condemned 1:18:34.240 --> 1:18:37.320 as terrorism. When then they're not, to my eye, that 1:18:37.439 --> 1:18:41.720 morally different. I guess, yeah, that makes sense. 1:18:41.800 --> 1:18:43.880 I agree, and I also think, no, it makes a 1:18:43.880 --> 1:18:47.840 lot of sense. I think remembering the imbalance that it 1:18:47.920 --> 1:18:51.920 starts at is so important because Palestine has no army, 1:18:52.160 --> 1:18:55.360 it's not backed by any rich ass nation, it's not 1:18:55.439 --> 1:19:00.799 trained by anything, and it's an extremely unbalanced unquote battle. 1:19:01.400 --> 1:19:05.200 No one's deploying an Apache helicopter when when the idea 1:19:05.200 --> 1:19:06.439 of killers journalist right. 1:19:06.360 --> 1:19:10.920 Like exactly, and yeah, like sharenaut Oarckley was a US citizen. 1:19:10.960 --> 1:19:12.920 Not that it matters, but it should matter just in 1:19:13.000 --> 1:19:15.240 the idea of what the US can do or like 1:19:15.320 --> 1:19:18.280 the outrage it can have, but it doesn't. 1:19:17.960 --> 1:19:22.280 Do anything as a journalist who goes to dangerous places 1:19:22.320 --> 1:19:27.920 and is a US citizen. Now, like it's fucking infuriating 1:19:28.320 --> 1:19:32.120 and obviously like and particularly thing that like you know, 1:19:32.240 --> 1:19:34.880 like daddy government is coming to save me. I'm not 1:19:35.000 --> 1:19:37.599 like you know, if you if you're laboring under that illusion, 1:19:37.600 --> 1:19:41.600 you're probably a little bit naive. But it is just 1:19:41.920 --> 1:19:47.559 incredibly frustrating to see the value of some quote unquote 1:19:47.560 --> 1:19:52.160 American lives, like it's it's it's always wrong to shoot journalists, 1:19:52.160 --> 1:19:55.559 of course, but like it's just in the US basically 1:19:55.600 --> 1:20:00.640 condoning that. It's yes, as again, this isn't first if 1:20:00.680 --> 1:20:05.040 I can get like Arab journalist that the US who 1:20:05.080 --> 1:20:07.559 is a US citizen who has been killed by an 1:20:07.560 --> 1:20:10.640 authoritarian regime, that the US had done fuck all about. 1:20:10.880 --> 1:20:13.760 Yeah, No, I think it's just a slap in the 1:20:13.800 --> 1:20:16.760 face for her family and just the entire community of 1:20:16.800 --> 1:20:20.360 like both Arabs and journalists and that crossover there. But 1:20:20.880 --> 1:20:24.320 I did want to mention just the terrorism. Acts on 1:20:24.360 --> 1:20:28.040 both sides are obviously terrible. I just think you have 1:20:28.080 --> 1:20:32.040 to remember where they started and the imbalance that is there, 1:20:32.520 --> 1:20:35.519 especially if the entity that is supposed to protect the 1:20:35.520 --> 1:20:41.040 Palestinians isn't doing shit and the only way Palestinians can 1:20:41.960 --> 1:20:45.320 fight back or defend themselves is with violence. 1:20:45.520 --> 1:20:47.200 Yeah, yeah, I don't know. 1:20:47.360 --> 1:20:51.680 It's just frustrating when people point out the violence on 1:20:51.880 --> 1:20:55.920 just the Palestinian side, and we'll get into the news 1:20:56.000 --> 1:20:57.960 version of what that means and then biases of what 1:20:58.000 --> 1:21:00.200 that means it a little bit, but yeah, I just's 1:21:00.479 --> 1:21:03.599 explaining exactly why these groups have risen. 1:21:03.680 --> 1:21:08.200 Yeah, there's just to be an absolute fuckingd weep for 1:21:08.240 --> 1:21:11.080 a second. The introduction to Wretched of the Earth that 1:21:11.160 --> 1:21:13.479 John Paul starts Were wrote, it's a France fan on 1:21:13.520 --> 1:21:16.560 book is fantastic when talking about violence and violence in 1:21:16.600 --> 1:21:21.000 the decolonial process, and like how it's very nice that 1:21:21.080 --> 1:21:25.840 these colonial states, apartheid states like Israel speak in the 1:21:25.920 --> 1:21:28.800 language of rights. Yeah, and they encourage to colonize people 1:21:28.840 --> 1:21:30.559 to make their claims in the language of rights. But 1:21:30.600 --> 1:21:33.760 every time they fucking do, they get met with violence, right, 1:21:34.400 --> 1:21:38.639 And it is entirely understandable that when the state speaks 1:21:38.720 --> 1:21:41.400 you only in violence, you will reply using the same 1:21:41.479 --> 1:21:44.760 language that is spoken to you with right, Like that 1:21:45.120 --> 1:21:51.240 that is how decolonial struggles have been, right from Algeria 1:21:51.320 --> 1:21:56.040 to Vietnam to Palestine. And like this isn't a particularly 1:21:56.120 --> 1:21:59.160 like under theorized concept. It's there and Pano in the 1:21:59.240 --> 1:22:03.400 nineteen sixty that's always something I like to suggest people read. 1:22:03.439 --> 1:22:06.519 I think it's a very good kind of distillation of 1:22:06.800 --> 1:22:07.479 what's occurring. 1:22:07.680 --> 1:22:10.559 Yeah, No, I like that you mentioned that because it 1:22:10.600 --> 1:22:16.000 does seem like that this is like a Palestinian problem 1:22:16.040 --> 1:22:18.120 that they have, that they are violent and that they 1:22:18.200 --> 1:22:21.599 hate the other side, and it is just another good 1:22:21.640 --> 1:22:25.560 example of the effects of colonialism, and like that's the 1:22:26.640 --> 1:22:30.960 occupied people and their only choice of like retaliation. Anyway, 1:22:31.000 --> 1:22:33.040 I don't want to get into that too much, but 1:22:33.080 --> 1:22:38.560 I do want to emphasize why exactly that they were disillusioned, 1:22:38.600 --> 1:22:43.000 the Palestinian youth, especially during this time, because the IDEF 1:22:43.000 --> 1:22:46.240 has been extremely violent and the PA still is really 1:22:46.240 --> 1:22:52.520 inactive and doesn't do anything. So that's kind of the 1:22:52.520 --> 1:22:53.599 reason why there. 1:22:53.840 --> 1:22:56.960 Yeah, yeah, we have a little more on Shury neverorrectly 1:22:57.000 --> 1:22:57.519 if you want. 1:22:57.400 --> 1:23:01.160 To oh yeah, we have an episode about her, I believe, 1:23:02.560 --> 1:23:04.519 and I'm going to mention her a little bit here. 1:23:05.240 --> 1:23:09.479 The gen and refugee camp houses armed fighters and they 1:23:09.479 --> 1:23:12.719 are from several factions, but this means Israeli's They consider 1:23:12.760 --> 1:23:15.559 it a hub for what they call terrorist activity rather 1:23:15.640 --> 1:23:19.720 than resistance, so the entire camp is then dubbed a 1:23:19.840 --> 1:23:23.040 terrorist site. But most of the people what the IDEF 1:23:23.080 --> 1:23:26.760 has killed are not engaging in any sort of violent activity, 1:23:26.760 --> 1:23:29.920 and in some cases they are clearly marked as press 1:23:30.080 --> 1:23:33.320 wearing a bulletproof vest and a helmet, like El Jazeera 1:23:33.400 --> 1:23:36.559 journalist Sharina bu Akle, for one, she was shot dead 1:23:36.600 --> 1:23:39.080 by an Israeli sniper in May twenty twenty two, and 1:23:39.120 --> 1:23:42.240 in her case, the IDF said they were aiming at 1:23:42.360 --> 1:23:46.280 armed Palestinians who were shooting at them and responding with fire, 1:23:47.040 --> 1:23:50.799 and after I don't know a lot of inconclusive proof 1:23:50.840 --> 1:23:54.000 in the IDF sticking to that story. A ballistics analysis 1:23:54.040 --> 1:23:57.160 proved that that story wasn't true and there was no 1:23:57.360 --> 1:24:01.320 fire coming from the other side. Regardless, no one cares 1:24:01.320 --> 1:24:05.360 about that, and this happened all in Janine. So I 1:24:05.400 --> 1:24:08.720 think it's very clear why this camp has become a 1:24:08.760 --> 1:24:13.400 symbol of resistance simply because the atrocities that have happened 1:24:13.400 --> 1:24:16.960 there are tremendous and they keep fighting back. And I 1:24:16.960 --> 1:24:22.040 think it's an example of how exactly a Palestinian symbol 1:24:22.120 --> 1:24:25.080 comes to be, like Gaza, like this, whatever it is. 1:24:25.640 --> 1:24:28.280 I wanted to include a coat from the Israeli military 1:24:28.320 --> 1:24:33.479 spokesman Ran Kouchov. He told Army Radio, which I guess 1:24:33.560 --> 1:24:35.760 is not exactly a kind of neutral arbit to here, 1:24:36.560 --> 1:24:39.160 that she was filming and working for a media outlet 1:24:39.160 --> 1:24:43.720 amidst arm Palestinians. They were armed with cameras, if you 1:24:43.760 --> 1:24:46.720 will permit me to say so, which like no, like 1:24:46.760 --> 1:24:51.640 we should not not fucking permit someone because like you know, 1:24:51.840 --> 1:24:55.000 I'll go to all kinds of dangerous spots with a camera. 1:24:55.080 --> 1:24:57.240 Like I've never fucking shot someone with a camera, because 1:24:57.240 --> 1:25:00.200 it's a fucking camera, right, Like it doesn't it And 1:25:00.439 --> 1:25:03.000 that's not what cameras do. They take videos. 1:25:03.320 --> 1:25:06.479 It's the most like I can't believe that's an actual 1:25:06.560 --> 1:25:09.800 quote that's someone said and got away with. 1:25:10.240 --> 1:25:12.439 Yeah, what the fuck is wrong? Like what it's just 1:25:12.520 --> 1:25:15.439 incorrect operation of the human brain to use the fucking 1:25:15.479 --> 1:25:17.360 phrase arm with camera like what is wrong with you? 1:25:19.439 --> 1:25:22.120 It's I know, people get really people got really mad 1:25:22.160 --> 1:25:24.960 briefly when Russians were shooting journalists in Ukraine in the 1:25:25.040 --> 1:25:30.000 star of the conflict, and like I guess they were 1:25:30.080 --> 1:25:31.920 kind of as we mask off about this, but like, yeah, 1:25:32.080 --> 1:25:35.439 it's a fucking camera. If if your security is threatened 1:25:35.479 --> 1:25:39.479 by someone filming the ship that you do, it's because 1:25:39.479 --> 1:25:41.080 you shouldn't be doing it, and you know you shouldn't 1:25:41.080 --> 1:25:46.439 be doing it right, like and again, like I've experienced that, 1:25:46.640 --> 1:25:48.640 like people people you know, doing stuff they don't want 1:25:48.680 --> 1:25:50.080 to be filmed and getting mad that I'm filming it. 1:25:50.120 --> 1:25:52.640 But like maybe if you're not prepared to defend what 1:25:52.640 --> 1:25:56.200 you're doing, you shouldn't be doing it. You don't, you know, 1:25:56.840 --> 1:25:59.000 you don't suggest that the camera is the camera is 1:25:59.160 --> 1:26:02.679 it's a new straw object here. It's not the camera 1:26:02.760 --> 1:26:04.000 that shot a woman in the head. 1:26:04.560 --> 1:26:09.320 Yeah, I mean that sentence is infuriating the fact that 1:26:09.640 --> 1:26:15.320 literally it says they were amidst armed Palestinians and then 1:26:15.320 --> 1:26:17.200 you couldn't you could stop there and people can just 1:26:17.240 --> 1:26:19.439 like click out and read and like move on their 1:26:19.520 --> 1:26:21.639 day thinking that they had fucking guns. And the next 1:26:21.680 --> 1:26:24.640 sentence is literally they're armed with cameras, Like are you 1:26:24.680 --> 1:26:26.640 I don't know. That's just so infuriating to me that 1:26:26.640 --> 1:26:29.240 that's like a real thing that was said and accepted. 1:26:29.800 --> 1:26:32.479 It seems to be like almost deliberately insulting or I 1:26:32.640 --> 1:26:34.960 don't know, like it's definitely an attack on Like I 1:26:34.960 --> 1:26:37.000 don't know. If you're a journalist and you don't see 1:26:37.000 --> 1:26:39.040 that of an attack on all of us, then you know, 1:26:39.280 --> 1:26:42.520 made me examine your biases, I guess. Yeah. 1:26:42.560 --> 1:26:46.120 And then the ballistics analysis that I mentioned earlier where 1:26:46.120 --> 1:26:48.800 she was it showed that where she was shot there 1:26:48.800 --> 1:26:51.639 were several targeted shots, one of which hit her head 1:26:51.760 --> 1:26:54.160 because there were shots in the tree that was behind her, 1:26:54.439 --> 1:26:55.920 so she was clearly targeted. 1:26:56.360 --> 1:26:59.000 Yeah, because she was shot by a sniper at the 1:26:59.000 --> 1:27:01.040 back of one of very PCs. Right, they have a 1:27:01.080 --> 1:27:05.320 little little like murder hole, and she was shot from 1:27:05.320 --> 1:27:07.360 two hundred meters to which is not very far with 1:27:07.560 --> 1:27:11.840 a magnified sign and like, yeah, you don't just it 1:27:11.840 --> 1:27:14.000 wouldn't look like that, I guess, Like three little holes 1:27:14.040 --> 1:27:16.600 behind where her head was suggested that someone fired like 1:27:16.600 --> 1:27:19.960 a single shirts targeted, not just like spraying it sprain 1:27:20.000 --> 1:27:21.839 bullets around. Yeah. 1:27:22.040 --> 1:27:23.719 I don't want to talk about it too much because 1:27:23.720 --> 1:27:26.040 there it is, that's on the topic of this episode. 1:27:26.080 --> 1:27:28.000 But I do want to just say that I think 1:27:28.040 --> 1:27:31.080 it's so ironic that the idea is supposed to be 1:27:31.120 --> 1:27:35.280 this most advanced military body, this highly trained thing, and 1:27:35.280 --> 1:27:38.360 then at the same breath their defenses sometimes they made 1:27:38.360 --> 1:27:40.519 a mistake. Oops, you know what I mean, Like they 1:27:40.560 --> 1:27:42.880 made this grave mistake. They thought she was carrying a 1:27:42.920 --> 1:27:45.040 gun or she was around people with guns. I just 1:27:45.080 --> 1:27:48.960 think that's a very silly I don't know. 1:27:50.040 --> 1:27:53.360 Yeah, I'm being shure. It's true, I suppose, and you can. 1:27:53.520 --> 1:27:56.200 You can make mistakes. But if you make mistakes, you 1:27:56.200 --> 1:27:59.200 own them. You could still be like, oh, yeah, we 1:27:58.960 --> 1:28:01.200 we one hundred percent fucked up, and like we need 1:28:01.240 --> 1:28:02.559 to examine how we fucked up. 1:28:02.840 --> 1:28:05.640 You know, that's just their defense. So many times it 1:28:05.640 --> 1:28:08.280 gets really fucking old. But Okay, before we continue and 1:28:08.320 --> 1:28:10.760 talk about the recent attack in Janine, let's take our 1:28:10.800 --> 1:28:14.080 first break and we'll be right back. And we're back. 1:28:14.400 --> 1:28:17.519 Let's go back to talk about the latest raid on 1:28:17.720 --> 1:28:21.960 the Janine refugee camp. The Israeli Army launched its latest 1:28:22.080 --> 1:28:25.080 raid on the Janine refugee camp in the early hours 1:28:25.120 --> 1:28:29.320 of Monday, June nineteenth. Five people, including a fifteen year old, 1:28:29.439 --> 1:28:32.320 were dead by the time it withdrew its forces in 1:28:32.360 --> 1:28:36.280 the afternoon. Others died the following day because of their injuries. 1:28:37.120 --> 1:28:40.240 Several journalists were shot at and they were surrounded and 1:28:40.240 --> 1:28:44.400 one was injured. This raid ironically took place near the 1:28:44.439 --> 1:28:48.800 location where Sharin A Blockley was killed. Several ambulances were 1:28:48.840 --> 1:28:52.320 also fired upon with live ammunition, and at first they 1:28:52.320 --> 1:28:54.840 were denied access to the injured, which is nothing new 1:28:54.880 --> 1:28:57.960 to the IDF. They do this consistently with the block 1:28:58.439 --> 1:29:02.640 medical aid to reach the people that are injured. The 1:29:02.680 --> 1:29:05.880 Israeli armies said the raid was to arrest two suspects, 1:29:05.920 --> 1:29:09.120 one of whom was a former Palestinian prisoner, Asim Abu 1:29:09.120 --> 1:29:13.080 ad Haija, who was the son of an imprisoned Hamas leader. 1:29:14.040 --> 1:29:15.840 I just want a quick reminder of refresh. I know 1:29:15.920 --> 1:29:18.360 I say this in most of the episodes about Palestine, 1:29:18.520 --> 1:29:21.240 especially the ones I've done in the beginning of this year, 1:29:21.680 --> 1:29:25.439 but in twenty twenty two, Israeli forces killed more than 1:29:25.479 --> 1:29:28.959 one hundred and seventy Palestinians, including at least thirty children 1:29:29.439 --> 1:29:32.479 in occupied East Jerusalem and in the West Bank, and 1:29:32.520 --> 1:29:35.760 this is described as the deadliest year for Palestinians and 1:29:35.800 --> 1:29:38.000 those living in those areas since two thousand and six. 1:29:38.520 --> 1:29:41.320 Since the start of twenty twenty three, Israeli forces have 1:29:41.439 --> 1:29:45.719 killed at least one hundred and sixty Palestinians, including twenty 1:29:45.760 --> 1:29:50.679 six children, and it's June. The death toll includes thirty 1:29:50.680 --> 1:29:53.599 six Palestinians killed by the Israeli army during a four 1:29:53.680 --> 1:29:56.679 day assault on the besieged Gaza strip between May ninth 1:29:56.760 --> 1:29:58.760 and May thirteenth of this year. I just want to 1:29:58.760 --> 1:30:01.640 put that into contexts because if twenty twenty two was 1:30:01.680 --> 1:30:08.000 the deadliest year for Palestinians in the last twenty years 1:30:08.040 --> 1:30:11.800 and we're essentially already there by six months into this 1:30:11.880 --> 1:30:14.559 new year, it's just it's really disturbing and it's really 1:30:14.600 --> 1:30:19.360 heartbreaking that it's truly there's no slowing down. And this 1:30:19.439 --> 1:30:21.559 raid is a great example of them just like upping 1:30:21.680 --> 1:30:25.280 the ante. And what was different about this raid. Israeli 1:30:25.320 --> 1:30:28.760 offences into Janine are nothing new, but it appeared that 1:30:28.800 --> 1:30:32.479 the raiding soldiers were caught off guard this time. Shortly 1:30:32.520 --> 1:30:36.400 after the raid began, videos showed an Israeli military panther 1:30:36.720 --> 1:30:42.080 APC being hit with a roadside improvise explosive device, and 1:30:42.360 --> 1:30:44.720 there is a video of this. I haven't seen it 1:30:44.760 --> 1:30:47.439 because I just personally don't want to, but I said 1:30:47.439 --> 1:30:50.160 there if you choose to see it. Military helicopters then 1:30:50.240 --> 1:30:54.440 began shooting and launching rockets and flares while surveillance aircraft 1:30:54.479 --> 1:30:57.840 hovered above. It was the first time in twenty years 1:30:57.880 --> 1:31:01.599 that Israel deployed helicopter gunshow in the West Bank. By 1:31:01.640 --> 1:31:04.360 the end of the raid, reports suggested that at least 1:31:04.400 --> 1:31:08.520 five Israeli military vehicles had been damaged by explosive devices 1:31:08.560 --> 1:31:12.280 and bullets deployed by armed Palestinians. This was the first 1:31:12.320 --> 1:31:16.120 time the IDF was met with this understandable degree of 1:31:16.160 --> 1:31:21.200 resistance and defense Enginine, and their response was overwhelming. In return. 1:31:21.840 --> 1:31:25.160 Hi everyone, it's James and Train again and we're here 1:31:25.200 --> 1:31:27.880 today for a little update. It's the third of July 1:31:28.080 --> 1:31:31.360 as we're recording this. Just because there's been a significantly 1:31:31.520 --> 1:31:35.360 larger IDF incursion into the Genine refugee camp, and because 1:31:35.400 --> 1:31:36.600 we know this is coming out at the end of 1:31:36.640 --> 1:31:37.840 the week, we wanted to make sure you had a 1:31:37.880 --> 1:31:42.439 little bit more update to date information, so as best 1:31:42.640 --> 1:31:44.840 I can kind of bes together what happened is that 1:31:44.920 --> 1:31:49.760 some It'sraeli military vehicles were hit with an ID bomb, 1:31:49.880 --> 1:31:55.080 right roadside bomb and explosive device, and Israel responded by 1:31:55.080 --> 1:31:58.800 going fully ham on a scale that we haven't really 1:31:58.800 --> 1:32:03.320 seen since the second to fighter. So there's air attacks, 1:32:03.479 --> 1:32:08.680 droned helicopters, armored vehicles. I saw them using like an 1:32:08.720 --> 1:32:13.719 anti tank missile against a house. Saw videos of armored 1:32:13.760 --> 1:32:19.759 bulldozers tearing up roads in the camp, and preps sreen 1:32:19.800 --> 1:32:21.120 you could kind of give a scale of what this 1:32:21.240 --> 1:32:23.160 has done, not just to roads obviously, but to the 1:32:23.160 --> 1:32:24.040 people who live there. 1:32:24.600 --> 1:32:27.240 Yeah, like James was saying, they're continuing to attack with 1:32:27.360 --> 1:32:32.000 drones and rockets, and the Janine refugee camp is very 1:32:32.000 --> 1:32:35.080 densely populated. It has about twenty thousand people, and they 1:32:35.080 --> 1:32:39.000 are targeting infrastructure like homes and roads and the mirror 1:32:39.040 --> 1:32:43.160 of Jane Nidhal Obaidi, he said the attack was a 1:32:43.200 --> 1:32:46.240 real massacre and an attempt to wipe out all aspects 1:32:46.280 --> 1:32:49.320 of life inside the city and the camp. Those being 1:32:49.360 --> 1:32:52.880 targeted now are not just the resistance fighters, but civilians 1:32:52.920 --> 1:32:57.479 are being killed and wounded as well, and water and 1:32:57.600 --> 1:33:00.519 electricity services have also been cut off from the camp. 1:33:00.760 --> 1:33:04.400 Since the attack has started. In the Palestine, RECRESCENTCE said 1:33:04.400 --> 1:33:08.040 that at least three thousand people were evacuated from the camp. 1:33:10.080 --> 1:33:14.080 Yeah, and then as far as like at time of recording, 1:33:14.120 --> 1:33:18.000 which is Monday afternoon, eight people have been killed. One 1:33:18.040 --> 1:33:22.000 more person was called in Romala. The two youngest victims 1:33:22.000 --> 1:33:26.759 were identified as Nordine Hassam Yusuf Marshud who is fifteen, 1:33:27.200 --> 1:33:32.920 and seventeen year old Majdi Joannis surd Ararawi. So both 1:33:32.960 --> 1:33:35.800 of them under eighteen, but the oldest person was twenty three, 1:33:35.840 --> 1:33:40.040 So these are all very young people sally dead now. 1:33:41.120 --> 1:33:44.840 And then they estimate that Palestinia Request estimates that three 1:33:44.840 --> 1:33:49.120 thousand people have left the camp, which I think paints 1:33:49.800 --> 1:33:53.800 a picture of like emptying or cleaning or whatever colonial 1:33:54.200 --> 1:33:56.320 sort of word you want to use to make it 1:33:56.320 --> 1:33:59.160 seem less brutal than it is, but like emptying the 1:33:59.200 --> 1:34:02.000 space of human being so that it can be colonized 1:34:02.080 --> 1:34:03.559 or that other folks can move there, right. 1:34:03.760 --> 1:34:09.000 Yeah, yeah. In addition to some places are saying eight 1:34:09.040 --> 1:34:13.040 have died, some people some places are saying nine but regardless, 1:34:13.080 --> 1:34:15.960 there are over one hundred people that are injured, and 1:34:16.280 --> 1:34:19.200 so I don't know, the fact that the oldest person 1:34:19.240 --> 1:34:21.360 was only twenty three years old should really paint the 1:34:21.400 --> 1:34:24.240 picture of like who exactly is being targeted and killed, 1:34:24.680 --> 1:34:29.439 because there's no way their defense of targeting terrorists can 1:34:29.439 --> 1:34:32.479 play here, even though it probably does in the long run. 1:34:33.080 --> 1:34:35.719 But I just I think it's really fucked up and unfair. 1:34:36.640 --> 1:34:40.120 The White House meanwhile, so the United States quote supports 1:34:40.200 --> 1:34:44.360 Israel's security and right to defend its people against Hamas, 1:34:44.400 --> 1:34:48.800 Palestinian Islamic jihad and other terrorist groups, and they also 1:34:48.880 --> 1:34:53.280 highlighted the need to protect non combatants, which hasn't happened, 1:34:53.760 --> 1:34:57.960 and none of those people are actually being targeted or no, 1:34:58.040 --> 1:35:00.240 there's nothing to defend at this point. I really don't. 1:35:02.400 --> 1:35:06.519 I don't know. It's it's also weird that I don't know, 1:35:06.640 --> 1:35:09.200 Like it just seems such a knee jerk response. Maybe 1:35:09.200 --> 1:35:11.200 this is just me being being a dweeb or whatever, 1:35:11.240 --> 1:35:15.880 but like, at least one of the IDs was was 1:35:16.400 --> 1:35:19.200 like claimed by Janine Brigades, I think the one earlier 1:35:19.280 --> 1:35:22.800 last week to call out groups by name like and 1:35:22.840 --> 1:35:25.160 then not call out the group who are claiming responsibility 1:35:25.200 --> 1:35:27.400 for at least one of these attacks. It just seems 1:35:27.439 --> 1:35:29.799 so like okay, like press play on the tape. 1:35:30.120 --> 1:35:32.720 Yeah, they're also naming things that people are probably more 1:35:32.720 --> 1:35:37.719 familiar with, like almost to like justify or like entice 1:35:37.800 --> 1:35:40.160 fear of being like, oh my god, yeah Hammas attack 1:35:40.240 --> 1:35:43.320 Hamas or whatever they think will happen with that response 1:35:45.360 --> 1:35:49.320 in the international response. Yeah, the international response has also 1:35:49.320 --> 1:35:52.800 been dog shit, surprise, surprise, because it will always just 1:35:52.800 --> 1:35:56.800 talk and nothing really happens. Turkey's Foreign Ministry voice is 1:35:56.840 --> 1:35:59.599 deep concern over the attack. They warned that it can 1:35:59.600 --> 1:36:03.000 trigger a new spiral of violence it already has, and 1:36:03.040 --> 1:36:06.479 they called the Israeli encouragion a heinous crime. Cut Her 1:36:07.080 --> 1:36:10.000 stress that the need for international community to move urgently 1:36:10.040 --> 1:36:13.880 to protect the Palestinian people was very necessary. And then 1:36:13.960 --> 1:36:18.639 Jordan condemned the escalation as a violation of international humanitarian law, 1:36:19.000 --> 1:36:23.759 which Israel has been breaking for years. So nothing has happened. 1:36:24.280 --> 1:36:27.479 And then Egypt, on the other hand, it warned of 1:36:27.560 --> 1:36:33.360 serious repercussions and it called on other international people to intervene. 1:36:34.280 --> 1:36:38.479 And then the UN said the situation is very dangerous, 1:36:38.479 --> 1:36:41.040 like all these things I think have already been said 1:36:41.280 --> 1:36:43.599 every time. That's why. I just think it's so empty 1:36:43.800 --> 1:36:48.120 and I don't know, I nothing if it's just words 1:36:48.120 --> 1:36:50.200 and no actions, Like, how are we supposed to even 1:36:50.200 --> 1:36:51.920 take anything seriously? I guess I don't know. 1:36:53.520 --> 1:36:56.759 Yeah, it's the the thoughts and prayers of the yeah, exactly, 1:36:56.840 --> 1:37:00.400 national like the UN is always deeply concerned that it 1:37:00.439 --> 1:37:04.840 never does fuck all right, So yeah, I guess to 1:37:04.920 --> 1:37:08.680 wrap up, we should talk about what this means for 1:37:09.080 --> 1:37:13.200 Janine as a place, like as a community. 1:37:14.120 --> 1:37:17.599 Yeah, we mentioned this in our previous recording last week. 1:37:18.360 --> 1:37:21.240 But Israel's attacks on Janine are part of an effort 1:37:21.240 --> 1:37:24.799 to crush resistance with the young Palestinians that are increasingly 1:37:24.880 --> 1:37:28.040 taking up arms because their disillusioned with the PA, and 1:37:28.080 --> 1:37:31.280 according to analysts, Israel's hard right government is likely to 1:37:31.280 --> 1:37:34.679 continue with heavy handed approach toward Palestinians in the West Bank. 1:37:35.320 --> 1:37:39.439 Palestinian lawyer and analyst Diana Buttu said Israel wants to 1:37:39.439 --> 1:37:42.080 do whatever it can to crush Janine in any other 1:37:42.160 --> 1:37:45.320 form of resistance. Israel has made it clear that there 1:37:45.320 --> 1:37:49.360 are three options available for Palestinians. Option one is to leave. 1:37:49.720 --> 1:37:52.519 Option two is to remain as residents, but not as 1:37:52.520 --> 1:37:56.519 citizens of any state. And option three is if you resist, 1:37:56.840 --> 1:37:59.160 we are going to crush you. This is what they 1:37:59.160 --> 1:38:03.839 are implementing. Yeah, yeah, I think that's well said. Yeah. 1:38:04.280 --> 1:38:07.920 Hassan Ayub, who is a Palestinian political science professor at 1:38:08.200 --> 1:38:12.200 n Nija National University in Nablus, he agreed with the 1:38:12.280 --> 1:38:15.080 lawyer's statement, and he said, the end game is to 1:38:15.080 --> 1:38:18.600 make Palestinians give up any hope of achieving self determination 1:38:18.840 --> 1:38:22.360 or being recognized as a people. Janine has a long 1:38:22.479 --> 1:38:25.120 history of resistance. It is a model for the masses 1:38:25.160 --> 1:38:28.639 that Israel wants to eliminate. But for Palestinians, the question 1:38:28.840 --> 1:38:31.840 is a matter of principle, and their endgame is to 1:38:31.960 --> 1:38:36.240 end this occupation. And essentially Israel intends to crush what 1:38:36.280 --> 1:38:39.960 I you refer to as quote the Janine phenomenon or 1:38:40.000 --> 1:38:45.280 any form of Palestinian resistance. Yeah, the Israeli aggression it 1:38:45.360 --> 1:38:49.040 raised fears of an escalation that continues to happen in 1:38:49.120 --> 1:38:51.840 areas such as the Kaza Strip because that's another symbolic 1:38:52.439 --> 1:38:57.479 place of resistance for Palestinians. And yeah, that's where we 1:38:57.560 --> 1:38:58.759 are now. 1:39:00.040 --> 1:39:03.360 Pretty much. It will I reach out to some people 1:39:03.400 --> 1:39:06.519 I know, but people generally don't like to be on 1:39:06.560 --> 1:39:09.760 their phones when this stuff is happening. So maybe I'll 1:39:09.840 --> 1:39:11.640 update you with some more information. 1:39:12.200 --> 1:39:15.519 Yeah, hopefully. I mean updates like this are always kind 1:39:15.560 --> 1:39:20.400 of like unfortunate because I don't think we want to 1:39:20.479 --> 1:39:24.040 update that more shitty things are happening, But especially with 1:39:24.080 --> 1:39:28.400 stuff like this, it doesn't seem like Israel is going 1:39:28.400 --> 1:39:33.280 to back down anytime soon. So yeah, that's that's the update. 1:39:34.000 --> 1:39:37.400 Okay. Yeah, so I wanted to talk about some of 1:39:37.400 --> 1:39:39.479 the people who were killed. One of the people who 1:39:39.600 --> 1:39:44.559 was killed was I'm dadf al Jas. He was forty eight. 1:39:45.160 --> 1:39:48.280 His son, aged twenty two, was killed in the Guinane 1:39:48.280 --> 1:39:51.160 massacare that occurred in January this year, so kind of 1:39:51.160 --> 1:39:53.680 gives you a sense of like the risk that I 1:39:53.680 --> 1:39:57.559 guess one incurs unwillingly by existing in what is a 1:39:57.600 --> 1:40:02.360 fucking refugee camp. His son wasn't the only young person killed. 1:40:02.680 --> 1:40:07.479 Another person who's killed was a Sadil Natcha Nachia. She 1:40:07.600 --> 1:40:12.040 was fifteen, and a few days later her classmates attended 1:40:12.040 --> 1:40:15.840 her funeral, all in their school uniforms. It's pretty sad. 1:40:16.320 --> 1:40:18.160 There are obviously images of it if you want to 1:40:18.160 --> 1:40:19.800 go look them up. But you can see lots of 1:40:19.920 --> 1:40:23.880 little school girls burying their friend in a town which 1:40:23.960 --> 1:40:30.479 is covered in burned detritus. No one should have to 1:40:30.479 --> 1:40:32.920 bury their kids. It's a torrible kid shouldn't have to 1:40:32.960 --> 1:40:35.599 deal with this shit. But there are plenty of pictures 1:40:35.600 --> 1:40:40.680 of little school girls standing by her grave. It's it's awful, 1:40:41.000 --> 1:40:45.439 so horrible. Yeah. The other victims were identified as Ahmed 1:40:45.560 --> 1:40:54.000 Saka Ahmed Da Rachma, Colored Dawish custom Pais Labusilia. They 1:40:54.040 --> 1:40:59.280 were fifteen, nineteen, twenty one, nineteen, and twenty nine respectively. 1:41:00.560 --> 1:41:03.400 They after this occurred, the aforementioned attack on settlers in 1:41:03.439 --> 1:41:06.639 Eli took place. Two gunman shown to a gas station 1:41:06.720 --> 1:41:09.320 or restaurant. One was killed on the scene and one 1:41:09.360 --> 1:41:11.720 was killed later. It was a response to the master 1:41:11.840 --> 1:41:15.200 attack on Tulmasya that occurred a few days before. And 1:41:15.800 --> 1:41:18.960 I want to highlight how the NYT covered this because 1:41:19.000 --> 1:41:23.320 I think it's important to dissect how Palestine is covered 1:41:23.439 --> 1:41:26.240 by the US right because obviously the US is one 1:41:26.280 --> 1:41:30.599 of the biggest state supporters of Israel, and specifically one 1:41:30.680 --> 1:41:33.880 of the people who continues to equip the IDF to 1:41:33.920 --> 1:41:39.360 do this stuff, so I'm quoting here directly. Last week, 1:41:39.360 --> 1:41:42.479 two Palestinians called for Israelis and injured four others near 1:41:42.479 --> 1:41:46.479 the Eli Settlement, escalating month long violence between Palestinians and 1:41:46.520 --> 1:41:49.840 Israelis in the West Bank. The next day, some four 1:41:49.960 --> 1:41:54.400 hundred settlers descended on several Palestinian villages, including tulmas Aya, 1:41:54.840 --> 1:41:59.240 a prosperous town near Romala, where reportedly they torched cars 1:41:59.240 --> 1:42:02.840 and homes. I want to I want to stop right there, 1:42:02.840 --> 1:42:07.200 because it is not reportedly right, Like we do not 1:42:07.280 --> 1:42:09.960 have to qualify this with like maybe or like we've 1:42:10.000 --> 1:42:13.400 just seen this on Twitter dot com. Like you could 1:42:13.400 --> 1:42:16.400 probably see this shit on Google maps, right, Like they 1:42:16.479 --> 1:42:20.880 torched a town. There's there's massive damage done. Even the 1:42:20.920 --> 1:42:25.800 New York Times itself didn't qualify it as a reported 1:42:25.880 --> 1:42:31.519 incident in its own reporting, and that this isn't we 1:42:31.600 --> 1:42:35.920 don't hear the same thing with the two Palestinian gunmen, right. 1:42:36.800 --> 1:42:39.240 Just to read the first opening sentence again, last week, 1:42:39.240 --> 1:42:43.120 two Palestinian carriers killed for Israelis. It's just stated as 1:42:43.120 --> 1:42:49.520 a fact, right, And these just within those couple of sentences, 1:42:49.560 --> 1:42:52.559 you can see so much of the bias in the 1:42:52.600 --> 1:42:57.280 way this is reported so much of the different perspectives 1:42:57.320 --> 1:43:00.400 through which state violence I would encourage you people not 1:43:00.439 --> 1:43:03.840 to use terrorism. I would encourage them to see things, 1:43:03.920 --> 1:43:07.320 especially in this context, in terms of political violence. Right, 1:43:07.400 --> 1:43:09.840 there is political violence done by both sides. One of 1:43:09.880 --> 1:43:12.040 those sides is a state actor, the other side is 1:43:12.080 --> 1:43:15.519 a non state actor. But qualifying one and making it 1:43:15.680 --> 1:43:20.320 distinct from the other, I think is shoddy journalism, and 1:43:20.360 --> 1:43:22.799 I don't think it really helps us understand this situation. 1:43:24.400 --> 1:43:28.240 So what happened, right Like, fifteen homes were burned, sixty 1:43:28.320 --> 1:43:32.679 vehicles were burned, and the writer's sort of quote unquote, 1:43:32.680 --> 1:43:35.400 sort of saying this is reportedly. It's not true. It's 1:43:35.400 --> 1:43:38.559 a thing that really happened. Another kind of phrasing that 1:43:38.640 --> 1:43:43.439 I've found really objectionable in this instance is clashes, right 1:43:43.520 --> 1:43:48.639 Like often you'll see clashes in Janine, and like that 1:43:49.000 --> 1:43:52.920 casts a lens of parity, or it looks at these 1:43:52.920 --> 1:43:54.439 things through a lens of parity, which I don't think 1:43:54.560 --> 1:43:57.799 is real on the ground. Like, it's not a clash 1:43:57.840 --> 1:44:01.559 when a helicopter is firing rockets, even if it's varying 1:44:01.640 --> 1:44:05.559 rockets at people with kalashnikovs, Right Like, that it's not 1:44:05.600 --> 1:44:08.960 a clash. There's not really a parody there, right, Like, 1:44:09.120 --> 1:44:13.160 and it's it also kind of downplaced the violence of 1:44:13.200 --> 1:44:16.760 what's happening, right, it's an attack, it's an assault. I 1:44:16.800 --> 1:44:20.360 think the constant use of clashes, right, it's nearly always. 1:44:20.560 --> 1:44:23.240 You don't really see it used anywhere else. If you 1:44:23.360 --> 1:44:26.080 if you do, it's for it's for much less severe violence, 1:44:26.280 --> 1:44:29.599 like like clashes between an arrival football fans, not that 1:44:29.600 --> 1:44:32.960 that can't be very violent, care, but you don't really 1:44:33.040 --> 1:44:37.640 see this word used to characterize like state violence on 1:44:37.680 --> 1:44:42.280 this scale anywhere else. And so I would really encourage 1:44:42.320 --> 1:44:45.479 people when they're reading, especially coverage of this, right, which 1:44:45.520 --> 1:44:48.320 is an issue that the US cannot get its head 1:44:48.320 --> 1:44:51.720 out of its ass about, uh, to look for this 1:44:51.800 --> 1:44:55.160 bias language. And if you're reading coverage or anything else, right, 1:44:55.200 --> 1:44:57.040 if you're if you're reading coverage something, and you start 1:44:57.040 --> 1:44:59.720 to notice that, like I would perhaps question where you're 1:44:59.720 --> 1:45:02.120 getting your coverage from. And I know you had some 1:45:02.160 --> 1:45:04.000 shit to say about the New York Times sharing. 1:45:04.200 --> 1:45:07.280 I mean, yeah, I one really liked what you said 1:45:07.320 --> 1:45:11.080 about referring to it as state violence versus terrorism, because 1:45:11.080 --> 1:45:14.040 I think that's a huge point that I also want 1:45:14.080 --> 1:45:17.040 to adopt because I didn't even really transfer that over 1:45:17.160 --> 1:45:19.160 until just now when you said it, and I think 1:45:19.160 --> 1:45:21.599 it's a really important distinction, So thank you for that. 1:45:21.960 --> 1:45:24.880 But yeah, the New York Times, as well as many, 1:45:25.160 --> 1:45:28.760 if not most news organizations, they're incredibly biased when it 1:45:28.760 --> 1:45:31.519 comes to Palestine. Is real reporting, and The New York 1:45:31.560 --> 1:45:35.360 Times in particular has been absolute dog shit and their 1:45:35.360 --> 1:45:38.320 coverage of Palestine for quite a while now. There has 1:45:38.360 --> 1:45:40.800 been a persistent pattern of bias when it comes to 1:45:40.880 --> 1:45:44.240 Israel and Palestine. I'm going to go in chronological order, 1:45:44.280 --> 1:45:47.759 and then James will jump back in with the recent 1:45:47.840 --> 1:45:50.360 article about the New York Times and this terrible thing 1:45:50.400 --> 1:45:51.840 that it has within it that I'm not going to 1:45:51.880 --> 1:45:54.080 give away right now. But let's go back in time 1:45:54.160 --> 1:45:57.200 to February twenty eleven, when The New York Times published 1:45:57.240 --> 1:46:00.879 a piece on JVP activism in the Bay Area. JVP 1:46:01.080 --> 1:46:05.080 stands for Jewish Voices for Peace, and this article said, 1:46:05.280 --> 1:46:08.360 the activists say they are not working against Israel, but 1:46:08.400 --> 1:46:12.120 against the Israeli government policies they believe are a discriminatory 1:46:12.240 --> 1:46:16.040 which is yes correct, But in the editor's note, the 1:46:16.120 --> 1:46:19.440 Times later wrote that one of the articles two authors 1:46:19.560 --> 1:46:22.519 was a pro Palestinian advocate and that he should not 1:46:22.600 --> 1:46:25.200 have written the article and should not have been allowed 1:46:25.240 --> 1:46:29.839 to write it. So it initially seems like good reporting 1:46:29.880 --> 1:46:34.559 because it's true you're protesting against the Israeli government. But 1:46:34.600 --> 1:46:38.080 then to say that a Palestinian advocate can't write it 1:46:38.120 --> 1:46:41.800 is ridiculous, So fuck you New York Times. And then 1:46:41.880 --> 1:46:45.120 in twenty fifteen, a study was done analyzing the New 1:46:45.200 --> 1:46:48.800 York Times publications during the period of September tenth and 1:46:48.880 --> 1:46:52.400 October fourteenth and twenty fifteen. At the time of the 1:46:52.439 --> 1:46:56.759 study in twenty fifteen, two thousand Palestinians had been injured 1:46:56.800 --> 1:47:00.479 while eighty three Israelis were injured, just for context of 1:47:01.320 --> 1:47:05.360 what the reporting was about, and the study analyzed thirty 1:47:05.400 --> 1:47:08.400 six articles. In these articles, the New York Times talked 1:47:08.400 --> 1:47:12.599 about Palestinian quote unquote violence thirty six times and Israeli 1:47:12.680 --> 1:47:16.839 violence two times. The word attack was used to describe 1:47:16.880 --> 1:47:20.839 Palestinian actions one hundred and ten times, in Israeli actions 1:47:21.040 --> 1:47:25.160 seventeen times. They use the word terrorist forty two times 1:47:25.200 --> 1:47:29.200 to refer to Palestinian violence and one time one time 1:47:29.560 --> 1:47:33.160 to refer to Israeli violence. More than half of the 1:47:33.160 --> 1:47:36.880 New York Times headlines during that whole year depicted Palestinians 1:47:37.120 --> 1:47:43.200 as the instigators of violence. Zero headlines depicted Israelis as aggressors. 1:47:43.479 --> 1:47:46.840 None and nothing has changed. I know that's from a 1:47:46.880 --> 1:47:50.200 period in twenty fifteen, but that's basically consistent, if not 1:47:50.600 --> 1:47:51.479 more so prevalent. 1:47:51.560 --> 1:47:51.800 Now. 1:47:52.439 --> 1:47:54.759 It just seems like the New York Times editorial board 1:47:54.880 --> 1:47:59.599 refuses to incorporate Palestinian perspective into its editorials, even though 1:47:59.680 --> 1:48:02.160 there have been many calls to do so, and this 1:48:02.280 --> 1:48:05.639 leads it to fundamentally misread the reality on the ground 1:48:05.720 --> 1:48:08.840 in Palestine. And it clearly shows the newspaper's bias when 1:48:08.880 --> 1:48:11.840 it comes to what it chooses to include about Palestine 1:48:11.840 --> 1:48:14.880 and from whom. Of the two thy four hundred and 1:48:15.000 --> 1:48:18.000 ninety opinion pieces about Palestinians with The New York Times 1:48:18.080 --> 1:48:23.439 published between nineteen seventy in twenty nineteen, only forty six 1:48:24.000 --> 1:48:27.080 written by actual Palestinians, which is an average of less 1:48:27.120 --> 1:48:31.240 than two percent. With the lack of Palestinian and Arab 1:48:31.320 --> 1:48:34.080 columnists that are even employed by New York Times, a 1:48:34.200 --> 1:48:38.160 kind of group think has inevitably emerged there, and this 1:48:38.280 --> 1:48:43.160 group think consistently places Israel, Israeli framings and Israeli perspectives 1:48:43.200 --> 1:48:47.120 above those of Palestinians. A keyword search of the Times 1:48:47.240 --> 1:48:52.679 editorials that discuss Palestinians is like this. Between nineteen seventy 1:48:52.720 --> 1:48:56.280 and twenty nineteen, the word piece appeared one thousand and 1:48:56.280 --> 1:48:59.400 one hundred and twelve times, but justice only appeared eighty 1:48:59.400 --> 1:49:03.280 six times. Terror was mentioned six hundred and forty nine times, 1:49:03.479 --> 1:49:06.839 but occupation was only mentioned two hundred and nineteen times, 1:49:07.080 --> 1:49:09.439 two hundred and nineteen times. I want to also remind 1:49:09.479 --> 1:49:13.800 you this is from starting from nineteen seventy. Israel's security 1:49:14.080 --> 1:49:18.880 quote unquote was written ninety times, but Palestinian freedom was 1:49:18.960 --> 1:49:24.080 mentioned just three times. While keyboard searches alone do not 1:49:24.240 --> 1:49:26.519 tell the whole story, they do help us get a 1:49:26.560 --> 1:49:30.240 sense of the overall tenor of the Times coverage, and 1:49:30.320 --> 1:49:34.120 over the last five decades, Israel has been unquestioningly presented 1:49:34.160 --> 1:49:37.520 by Times editors as a close ally, while the Palestinians 1:49:37.520 --> 1:49:40.280 have been consistently framed as a problem. 1:49:41.400 --> 1:49:43.360 So I want to talk about this. There was an 1:49:43.400 --> 1:49:46.280 excellent piece that came out in Study Hall. I believe 1:49:46.320 --> 1:49:48.840 it's based on some reporting in a Canadian outlet called 1:49:48.880 --> 1:49:55.719 Passage and Study Hall is a freelance journalists like group 1:49:56.200 --> 1:50:00.120 Localists serve, but they also do some editorial work. It's 1:50:00.160 --> 1:50:03.840 talking about this this Israeli nonprofit or it's really funded 1:50:03.880 --> 1:50:07.760 nonprofits based in the US and also in Israel called 1:50:07.800 --> 1:50:10.280 Honest Reporting. What it is is a five oh one c. 1:50:10.479 --> 1:50:15.040 Three And essentially what they've done is is what Sharene 1:50:15.120 --> 1:50:20.439 describes right where they've they've found not I believe, mostly 1:50:20.479 --> 1:50:25.360 Palestinian reporters, perhaps also non Palastinian reporters who are reporting 1:50:25.400 --> 1:50:29.360 from this. I guess from what I would described as 1:50:29.360 --> 1:50:32.920 the facts based approach to this, which is describing what's 1:50:32.920 --> 1:50:39.600 happening as an apartheid and they've dived into these people's background, 1:50:39.720 --> 1:50:44.519 their previous tweets, their previous writing, their other work to 1:50:44.560 --> 1:50:48.200 describe them as biased and get their articles taken down. 1:50:48.479 --> 1:50:51.759 They've done this to some very like this has happened 1:50:51.760 --> 1:50:53.640 at the time, and this is at a time, like 1:50:54.560 --> 1:50:56.920 I know Sharen mentioned something that happened in twenty eleven, 1:50:57.000 --> 1:51:01.000 but I know that in twenty ten the Jerusalem bureau 1:51:01.080 --> 1:51:02.920 chief of the Times had a child serving in the 1:51:02.920 --> 1:51:08.160 IDF Right. So like you know, if if I had 1:51:08.200 --> 1:51:12.200 a you know, if I was a journalist, and I said, yeah, 1:51:12.200 --> 1:51:13.800 you know, I actually have a son who's in the 1:51:13.840 --> 1:51:16.280 Aleaxa Martyrs Brigade. Like then they're not going to not 1:51:16.280 --> 1:51:22.000 going to commission my piece. But they've for instance, Hosam Salem. 1:51:23.120 --> 1:51:24.559 Have you seen Sam's work? 1:51:25.320 --> 1:51:26.519 I don't know. 1:51:26.600 --> 1:51:27.719 My brain doesn't create. 1:51:28.040 --> 1:51:30.280 I've worked with a sum before. It's a friend of mine. 1:51:30.360 --> 1:51:33.680 He's an incredibly gifted photojournalist. People should follow him on 1:51:33.720 --> 1:51:37.080 the places where they see photographs. He's blacklisted by The 1:51:37.120 --> 1:51:40.559 Times based on an honest reporting probe into his quote 1:51:40.600 --> 1:51:46.040 unquote bias, which his photos of Gaza are some of 1:51:46.160 --> 1:51:50.120 the most emotive photographs of Gaza I've ever seen. And 1:51:50.320 --> 1:51:52.599 I work with him on a piece that will one 1:51:52.680 --> 1:51:56.519 day become a podcast about Parkour in the Gaza Strip. 1:51:56.880 --> 1:52:01.000 But yeah, Hossam is a fantastic photo journal Listen absolutely 1:52:01.280 --> 1:52:04.880 like it is. It's utterly ridiculous to have like have 1:52:05.000 --> 1:52:08.160 him blacklisted by a major news organization, which, like, whether 1:52:08.200 --> 1:52:11.200 we like it or not, that is where a lot 1:52:11.200 --> 1:52:14.920 of Americans get their news. In one instance, this organization 1:52:15.520 --> 1:52:18.559 managed to get the Toronto Start to scrub all uses 1:52:18.560 --> 1:52:24.599 of Palestine from their stories to include shit like yeah, 1:52:24.640 --> 1:52:26.600 like the like they were profiling a DJ who was 1:52:26.640 --> 1:52:33.240 Palestinian and wow, which I think is like incredibly illustrative, 1:52:33.320 --> 1:52:37.120 right that, Like this is organization presents itself as fighting 1:52:37.160 --> 1:52:40.280 anti Israeli bias, which I'm sure that is a thing 1:52:40.320 --> 1:52:44.000 that exists. It fucking does not exist in the US media. 1:52:44.600 --> 1:52:48.720 Like I'm I'm not a Palestinian person, by speak as 1:52:48.720 --> 1:52:52.639 a person who has pitched articles about conflict in various 1:52:52.680 --> 1:52:53.920 parts of the world, and they can tell you that 1:52:53.920 --> 1:52:55.920 that that is not a bias that I have come across, 1:52:55.920 --> 1:52:59.040 having worked with almost every big outlet that it is 1:52:59.080 --> 1:53:03.080 possible to work for in the US. And it's not 1:53:03.160 --> 1:53:07.120 doing that. It's trying to raise Palestine and Palestinian people 1:53:07.439 --> 1:53:10.320 not only their perspectives but their whole existence. Right, And 1:53:11.400 --> 1:53:13.599 this is something that I hop on a lot, But like, 1:53:13.640 --> 1:53:16.040 I think we should do more conflict reporting that's about people, 1:53:16.080 --> 1:53:18.720 unless it is about numbers and battles and such like. 1:53:18.880 --> 1:53:21.679 That's why I want to write about little girls who's 1:53:21.680 --> 1:53:25.559 surfing Gaza and young men who do parkour, because like 1:53:25.760 --> 1:53:31.559 when Israel bombs Gaza, it doesn't just bomb people who 1:53:31.600 --> 1:53:35.760 are part of fatal or humas or whatever they want 1:53:35.800 --> 1:53:41.280 to say. They're targeting, right, like the lions den or genymbrias, 1:53:41.320 --> 1:53:44.160 whatever they're When they're bombing these places, they're also bombing children. 1:53:44.640 --> 1:53:47.720 They're also bombing places where little kids want to go 1:53:47.760 --> 1:53:51.240 and play football. They're bombing towns where little boys want 1:53:51.280 --> 1:53:54.960 to I mean the hospitals and schools, and yeah, like 1:53:55.040 --> 1:53:57.720 the this is where people just like you live. It's 1:53:57.800 --> 1:54:02.360 not like it's a very clear desire to kind of 1:54:02.760 --> 1:54:05.840 erase Palestinian civilians, I guess from my narrative, and it's 1:54:05.880 --> 1:54:08.000 really important that we as journalists and as people don't 1:54:08.040 --> 1:54:10.200 allow that to happen. I guess you can. We'll link 1:54:10.240 --> 1:54:12.760 to this in our sources at the end of the month, 1:54:12.800 --> 1:54:14.400 but I think it's an excellent piece. It's worth reading. 1:54:15.240 --> 1:54:21.400 Thank you parentialing that before we continue with some really 1:54:21.439 --> 1:54:24.760 excellent new things. Let's take our second break and we'll 1:54:24.760 --> 1:54:25.400 be right back. 1:54:25.360 --> 1:54:30.200 Yes, way back, And I want to talk a little 1:54:30.240 --> 1:54:34.280 bit more about h the I guess the Israeli political 1:54:34.320 --> 1:54:38.600 context behind the increasing aggression towards Janina and Palestini in general. 1:54:39.240 --> 1:54:41.880 So of the one hundred and sixty five Palestinian deaths. 1:54:42.240 --> 1:54:43.960 About eighty six are in the North and West Bank, 1:54:44.120 --> 1:54:47.960 mostly in the areas of Janine and Nublists, which cannot 1:54:48.000 --> 1:54:49.800 come incidainly are the areas where we're seeing new armed 1:54:49.800 --> 1:54:53.560 groups emerging. Despite this, Israel it's ready to massively step 1:54:53.640 --> 1:54:56.320 up settlement in the West Bank. Earlier in June, Prime 1:54:56.360 --> 1:55:00.720 Minister Benjamin then Yahoo ratified a policy allowing pro settler 1:55:00.760 --> 1:55:05.480 finance Minister that's Aleel Smotridge to bypass the six days 1:55:05.480 --> 1:55:08.480 process for building settlements, effectively giving him the ability to 1:55:08.480 --> 1:55:11.800 make settlement decisions on its own. In recent years, Israeli 1:55:11.840 --> 1:55:14.640 politicians as settlers have become more and more open about 1:55:14.680 --> 1:55:17.520 their goals annexing most, if not all, of the West Bank. 1:55:18.320 --> 1:55:22.440 So March of this year, Smartridge claimed that Palestinian people 1:55:22.840 --> 1:55:27.120 were an invention of the last century. It's probably worth 1:55:27.120 --> 1:55:29.080 taking a moment to point out that all national identities 1:55:29.120 --> 1:55:32.680 are inherently constructed. If humanity did not come to earth 1:55:32.720 --> 1:55:36.120 with flags, those are things that came to exist in 1:55:36.160 --> 1:55:40.200 the nineteenth and twentieth century. Like, so is Israel right, 1:55:42.040 --> 1:55:43.800 we can kind of put a date on that one. 1:55:44.560 --> 1:55:45.920 So that's just so that's. 1:55:45.760 --> 1:55:49.480 Like literally projecting an invention of the last century is 1:55:49.560 --> 1:55:52.800 literally Israel whatever, Yes, the state of Israel. 1:55:52.880 --> 1:55:55.320 Yeah, I mean nations calling other nations constructed. Is the 1:55:55.400 --> 1:55:58.600 kind of the popcorn in the cow blackleg. Yeah, but 1:55:59.640 --> 1:56:02.360 in some much as if we're going to do that, 1:56:02.400 --> 1:56:04.680 I think is rarely throwing stones from a glasshouse. 1:56:05.640 --> 1:56:06.360 Yeah exactly. 1:56:07.440 --> 1:56:10.200 It's like it doesn't really fucking matter either, right, Like 1:56:10.240 --> 1:56:12.640 it doesn't matter how long the one group of people 1:56:12.680 --> 1:56:17.280 has had one flag, you still shouldn't fucking kill children, 1:56:18.600 --> 1:56:21.360 which applies to anyone involved in the killing of children. 1:56:21.600 --> 1:56:24.120 Smatrich said that there was no such thing as a 1:56:24.120 --> 1:56:27.680 Palestinian because there is no such thing as a Palestinian people. 1:56:28.120 --> 1:56:30.680 In a speech in Paris and a memorial for Jack Koppa, 1:56:30.840 --> 1:56:34.280 an Activisty's else right wing LIQUD party. Do you know 1:56:34.320 --> 1:56:38.960 who are the Palestinians? He said, I'm a Palestinian, going 1:56:39.000 --> 1:56:42.000 on to describe his late grandfather, who he said was 1:56:42.080 --> 1:56:48.120 a thirteenth generation Jerusalem might as a true Palestinian, which 1:56:48.200 --> 1:56:51.560 is somewhat Look, these people are supposed to be contradictory, 1:56:51.600 --> 1:56:53.360 Like it's not really worth sucking pointing this out, but 1:56:53.400 --> 1:56:56.200 like you can't simultaneously say there aren't a Palestinians. Palestine 1:56:56.200 --> 1:57:01.520 doesn't exist. Also, I'm a Palestinian, right, it is again 1:57:01.720 --> 1:57:04.560 not the point. I guess he was a resident. He 1:57:04.600 --> 1:57:07.040 is a resident one of the settlements himself. He's an 1:57:07.040 --> 1:57:11.320 advocate for theocratic law, the segregation of maternity wards. So 1:57:11.600 --> 1:57:15.680 he doesn't want Arab and Israeli women to give birth 1:57:15.680 --> 1:57:19.800 in the same ridiculous Yeah, it's his justification for it 1:57:19.840 --> 1:57:22.200 is like even worse, but I won't bother with that. 1:57:22.800 --> 1:57:27.000 He's also openly homophobic, and he supports the conspiracy theory 1:57:27.000 --> 1:57:32.600 that Jitzach Rabin was killed by Israel security agencies. All around. 1:57:32.680 --> 1:57:37.440 Top guy Benjamin and Yahoo's party likes to use names 1:57:37.440 --> 1:57:39.400 for the West Bank that you might find in the Bible, 1:57:39.840 --> 1:57:42.480 and it's made accelerating a legal settlement there a priority. 1:57:42.920 --> 1:57:45.520 Since it took office that Yahoos coalition has approved seven 1:57:45.560 --> 1:57:48.640 thousand new housing units, many in the occupied West Bank. 1:57:49.400 --> 1:57:51.880 The government also amended law to clear the way for 1:57:51.920 --> 1:57:55.520 settlers to return to four settlements that have previously been evacuated. 1:57:56.000 --> 1:57:58.879 Within a week of having power to make these decisions, 1:57:58.960 --> 1:58:05.000 smart Rich approved five thousand new units. We this is 1:58:05.000 --> 1:58:07.480 a great time to draw attention to one of the 1:58:07.520 --> 1:58:12.880 most fucking infuriating paragraphs that has ever been written, which 1:58:12.960 --> 1:58:14.960 I found in a New York Times article that. 1:58:16.320 --> 1:58:18.320 I can't believe this is real. James said it to 1:58:18.360 --> 1:58:21.560 me before this, and it is crazy. 1:58:22.920 --> 1:58:24.680 I like the century and stuff I know will make 1:58:24.720 --> 1:58:28.280 her angry. Of course, not all West Bank settlers are 1:58:28.280 --> 1:58:30.400 alter nationalists who believe that living in the land of 1:58:30.440 --> 1:58:33.120 the Bible is a religious edict. Most settlers, in fact, 1:58:33.200 --> 1:58:36.480 including hundreds of thousands of Altra Orthodox News, move there 1:58:36.520 --> 1:58:40.800 seeking a portable housing. I am fucking like I cannot 1:58:41.000 --> 1:58:42.880 real lost it when. 1:58:42.760 --> 1:58:46.600 I got here. Yeah, I checked out mentally. I catapopled 1:58:46.680 --> 1:58:49.120 myself into outer space. I don't want to be here anymore. 1:58:49.520 --> 1:58:50.560 That is ridiculous. 1:58:50.840 --> 1:58:52.720 I have decided to curl up into a ball and 1:58:52.720 --> 1:58:55.920 no longer exist. Like this is from the newspaper as well, 1:58:55.960 --> 1:58:59.200 that like went so fucking ham on people in twenty twenty, 1:58:59.600 --> 1:59:03.960 like taking milk from a target, you know, like when 1:59:04.000 --> 1:59:07.080 you like seeking affordable dairy products. I guess could have 1:59:07.080 --> 1:59:09.080 been an alternative frameing of that that they didn't. They 1:59:09.080 --> 1:59:12.400 didn't go for it. It just fucking unbelievable, like the 1:59:12.920 --> 1:59:15.640 like the shit that free economics has done to people's brains. 1:59:16.640 --> 1:59:20.160 Is it's really next level. But more people listen to 1:59:20.200 --> 1:59:22.440 our podcasts in their podcast because we're winning in the 1:59:22.480 --> 1:59:27.840 marketplace of ideas and so all in seven hundred and 1:59:27.840 --> 1:59:31.440 fifty thousand people live in these settlements. But being a 1:59:31.520 --> 1:59:34.160 legal under international law doesn't really mean anything unless that 1:59:34.240 --> 1:59:37.040 law is enforced. And it really is. We spoke earlier 1:59:37.040 --> 1:59:40.000 this before, right, just like the US, which frequently violates 1:59:40.000 --> 1:59:42.800 Domexican international law on its own border, Israel is simply 1:59:42.800 --> 1:59:45.680 not held to account for its crimes. United Nations Special 1:59:45.720 --> 1:59:50.880 Reporteur and Palestine Francisco Albernesi told Al Jazeera international law 1:59:50.920 --> 1:59:54.160 has a quote unquote problem of enforcement. There is a 1:59:54.200 --> 1:59:57.720 problem of double standards because clearly when it comes to Palestine, 1:59:57.880 --> 2:00:00.600 there is a cognitive dissonance, especially among West countries and 2:00:00.640 --> 2:00:03.800 reticents in applying these coercive measures and all the prohibitions 2:00:03.880 --> 2:00:06.120 international law of thoughts are Benici said. 2:00:06.480 --> 2:00:10.040 Yeah, we already mentioned how just even the phrase international law, 2:00:11.240 --> 2:00:15.360 it's just make believe like you always hear about Israel, 2:00:17.040 --> 2:00:19.960 even like committing crimes against humanity, None of that even 2:00:20.080 --> 2:00:23.760 seems to matter when it comes to Israel. Because there's 2:00:23.760 --> 2:00:25.120 never a repercussion. 2:00:25.200 --> 2:00:28.000 Yeah, it doesn't matter anywhere that there's no direct interest 2:00:28.560 --> 2:00:31.240 to capital to enforcing that law. Right, it doesn't matter 2:00:31.280 --> 2:00:34.680 when young women in mem are get raped by soldiers. 2:00:34.720 --> 2:00:37.280 It doesn't matter when villages get burned down there, It 2:00:37.320 --> 2:00:41.240 doesn't matter in to grie in Ethiopia and Eritrea because 2:00:41.240 --> 2:00:45.480 there's no interest to finance capital of solving that problem. 2:00:45.560 --> 2:00:50.720 It's not just a Palestine thing. It's the thing all 2:00:50.720 --> 2:00:56.040 over the world. And laws are fundamentally backed up by violence. Right, 2:00:56.080 --> 2:00:58.680 Like in America, if you get a parking ticket and 2:00:58.680 --> 2:01:00.400 you don't pay your parking ticket and you go to court, 2:01:00.440 --> 2:01:02.000 and you don't go to court, eventually someone with a 2:01:02.000 --> 2:01:05.080 gun will come and kick down your door. And like 2:01:05.560 --> 2:01:09.800 all laws are based in violence. And there ain't no 2:01:09.840 --> 2:01:12.440 one kicking down Israel's door, right, and no one will. 2:01:13.040 --> 2:01:16.080 And so it doesn't matter. International law doesn't matter. It's 2:01:17.040 --> 2:01:18.920 it's nice and it's there. We can point to it 2:01:18.960 --> 2:01:20.800 and say, look, we've all agreed this is bad, but 2:01:20.840 --> 2:01:22.640 we all know it's bad. That we don't really need 2:01:22.680 --> 2:01:25.040 a bunch of like old men suits to tell us 2:01:25.040 --> 2:01:26.760 it's bad. We knew it was bad. What we needed 2:01:26.760 --> 2:01:29.720 to fucking make it stop, and that's not happening. 2:01:30.200 --> 2:01:34.360 Yeah. I think it's also interesting to mention that internationally, 2:01:35.080 --> 2:01:38.800 even when you get better quote unquote reporting about Palestine, 2:01:38.840 --> 2:01:42.240 it still is not enough because it's usually about peace 2:01:42.480 --> 2:01:45.840 and both sides or a conflict or whatever. So I 2:01:45.880 --> 2:01:48.720 just think, I mean that also goes back to news 2:01:48.960 --> 2:01:52.960 and how it's reported. But this stubborn insistence on blaming 2:01:53.000 --> 2:01:57.000 both sides is reflective of a deeply flawed quote unquote 2:01:57.040 --> 2:02:00.520 peace framework, and it has dominated the international under standing 2:02:00.560 --> 2:02:04.840 of the Israel Palestine quote unquote conflict for decades. The 2:02:04.880 --> 2:02:08.600 framework of peace centers on identity politics and ignores the 2:02:08.640 --> 2:02:12.920 structural violence that the state perpetuates against oppressed groups and 2:02:13.080 --> 2:02:17.120 instead focuses on acts of spectacular violence committed by those 2:02:17.120 --> 2:02:20.480 groups in response to the oppression they face. And it 2:02:20.520 --> 2:02:24.080 also blames them for escalating conflict and then uses it 2:02:24.120 --> 2:02:28.400 to justify the repressive violence by the more powerful forces. 2:02:30.080 --> 2:02:32.560 To go back to New York Times briefly, many of 2:02:32.600 --> 2:02:35.840 the Time's editorials over the last thirty years since the 2:02:35.920 --> 2:02:39.520 advent of the Oslo Accords have been steeped in the 2:02:39.560 --> 2:02:44.200 peace framework. They treat israelis a Palestinians as having equal 2:02:44.280 --> 2:02:48.520 power when they clearly don't. They praise Israel for minor 2:02:48.560 --> 2:02:52.680 adjustments to its daily structural violence against Palestinians, but in 2:02:52.760 --> 2:02:56.520 the same breath they scold Palestinian leaders and society for 2:02:56.600 --> 2:03:00.680 acts of violence done in turn. And the word is 2:03:00.720 --> 2:03:04.400 also problematic in and of itself, because Palestine isn't some 2:03:04.560 --> 2:03:07.760 conflict or problem for Israel to sort out. It's a 2:03:07.800 --> 2:03:10.800 cause for everyone to fight for. Since nineteen forty eight, 2:03:10.880 --> 2:03:14.120 the Israeli state has prevented Palestinians from living in their 2:03:14.120 --> 2:03:18.320 homeland with freedom and dignity, whether it's by banning refugees 2:03:18.360 --> 2:03:22.080 from returning to their homes, or discriminating against Palestinian citizens 2:03:22.160 --> 2:03:26.560 inside Israel, or keeping millions of Palestinians under military occupation. 2:03:27.320 --> 2:03:30.160 If there is a problem to be solved, that problem 2:03:30.240 --> 2:03:37.560 is the regime itself. But this fact of bias and 2:03:37.920 --> 2:03:41.360 shitty reporting, and the fact that the truth is not 2:03:41.440 --> 2:03:43.880 out of there, that fact seems to have eluded the 2:03:43.960 --> 2:03:49.200 Times editorial board because, rather than recognize the systemic violence, discrimination, 2:03:49.600 --> 2:03:54.160 and colonization perpetuated by Israel against Palestinians, the board blames 2:03:54.280 --> 2:03:59.200 quote unquote both sides for a vastly asymmetric situation. This 2:03:59.360 --> 2:04:03.080 both sides may give the appearance of balance, but it 2:04:03.120 --> 2:04:06.879 does not reflect the reality in which Israel holds almost 2:04:06.880 --> 2:04:11.040 total political, economic, and military power over the lives of 2:04:11.120 --> 2:04:15.560 every Palestinian in a system that growing numbers of scholars, 2:04:15.800 --> 2:04:19.920 human rights groups, and legal experts are defining as apartheid. 2:04:20.720 --> 2:04:23.919 But I do hope some of this was at least helpful, 2:04:24.240 --> 2:04:28.200 and I mean probably be back to do the same 2:04:28.280 --> 2:04:31.360 kind of thing soon because Israel is relentless and stupid 2:04:31.520 --> 2:04:36.919 and I hate it. So until then, fuck the IDF 2:04:36.920 --> 2:04:38.240 and have a nice day. 2:04:40.880 --> 2:04:44.040 Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week 2:04:44.120 --> 2:04:46.000 from now until the heat death of the universe. 2:04:46.600 --> 2:04:49.120 It Could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 2:04:49.200 --> 2:04:51.879 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 2:04:51.880 --> 2:04:55.000 coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 2:04:55.040 --> 2:04:58.200 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 2:04:58.240 --> 2:05:00.520 find sources for It Could Happen Here updates and monthly 2:05:00.800 --> 2:05:04.200 at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.