1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:02,680 Speaker 1: Hey everybody. Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 2 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:06,400 Speaker 1: you know this is a compilation episode, So every episode 3 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one 4 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 5 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 6 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 7 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but 8 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:21,600 Speaker 1: you can make your own decisions. 9 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 2: Hello everyone, and welcome to it could Happen Here podcast, 10 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:31,480 Speaker 2: which I'm recording at eight in the morning and best 11 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:35,159 Speaker 2: without any of my colleagues, and I'm joined today to 12 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:41,839 Speaker 2: discuss the technological aspects of the border regime by Austin 13 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 2: Coca of Syracuse University and by Jake Quiener of the 14 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 2: Electronic Privacy Information Center. Hi guys, good morning. 15 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 3: How are you doing. 16 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 2: James good, I'm very excited to talk more border stuff. 17 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:57,279 Speaker 2: I like covering this, even though it's sometimes terrible. So 18 00:00:57,640 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 2: what I wanted to start off with is I think 19 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 2: our listen as be familiar with CBP one, right, the 20 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:06,400 Speaker 2: most cursed cell phone up of all time, and both 21 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,960 Speaker 2: of you have written a lot and very insightfully about 22 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 2: CBP one so I thought we could kind of do 23 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 2: a little bit of a breakdown of a the issues 24 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 2: with it and be like with the issues with it 25 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:20,559 Speaker 2: as an app, and then the fact that we're using 26 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:24,640 Speaker 2: an app being a problem inherently. So perhaps we could 27 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 2: start with I know, Jake, you mentioned you wanted to 28 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:29,039 Speaker 2: talk a little bit about the design of the app. 29 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:32,040 Speaker 2: So in the process of sort of commissioning it and 30 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:33,399 Speaker 2: making it, should we start there? 31 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think this story is pretty interesting and 32 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:41,320 Speaker 4: unique because CBP one was built in house by a 33 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 4: small team at the Office of Field Operations. Wow CBP Yeah, 34 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 4: which is it is unique? Like, yeah, there's one other 35 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 4: app that they built, and I don't really know of 36 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 4: other mobile apps that have been rolled out with anything 37 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 4: close to the size of CBP one that have been 38 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 4: designed by a government agency. 39 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's kind of an odd choice. 40 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 3: You know. 41 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 4: Conceptually, it's not something I'm critical of, Like, I think, 42 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 4: if we're going to have a government that's providing services, 43 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 4: it's good for them to do things in house. It 44 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 4: means you're not relying on third parties who are able 45 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:26,079 Speaker 4: to like use information from the app and benefit off 46 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:28,920 Speaker 4: of it. But it doesn't mean you need the institutional 47 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 4: competency to be able to design an app and so 48 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 4: to just like provide a quick history. Basically, a CBP 49 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:41,799 Speaker 4: one app was built off of the framework of an 50 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 4: older app called CBP Rome. That app was used just 51 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:50,079 Speaker 4: for people boating on the Great Lakes because technically, if 52 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 4: you go like voting on Lake Michigan, you will leave 53 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 4: the United States if you chase a fish over the 54 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 4: boundary to Canada. Yeah, and CBP felt that it was 55 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 4: very important the people who did that reported leaving and 56 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 4: coming back into the United States. Yeah, right, questionable, but 57 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:12,079 Speaker 4: they built an app to let people do that, and 58 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 4: the framework for that app used a GPS ping to 59 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 4: verify when you're back in the US. 60 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 2: Okay, this is a small app, you know. 61 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 4: I don't think they encountered too many problems with it 62 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 4: because you're maybe a couple hundred visitors a day. And 63 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 4: on that framework they built out CBP one to do 64 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 4: a couple of things. It's used for folks like customs folks. 65 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 4: So if you're importing goods into the country, you can 66 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 4: do some of that reporting through CBP one and also 67 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 4: use it to apply for the and obtain the I 68 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 4: ninety four Travel form, which is the forum that like 69 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 4: most folks coming to the United States are going to 70 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 4: need and then critically for our uses, is that if 71 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 4: you are applying for asylum, you can use it to 72 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 4: schedule an appointment. 73 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's been the of my reporting on it, is 74 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 2: that the bulk of its use I think so, yeah, okay, 75 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 2: and so I'm still blown away with the fact they 76 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 2: designed in house. It's crazy. Did you ever find that 77 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 2: job did job posting? So people who designed it or 78 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 2: did they just like get some people who were good 79 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 2: to it to kind of take a swing at it. 80 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 4: So, as far as I know from you know, I've 81 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 4: talked to one of the people involved in the creation. 82 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 4: I think Austin has as well. My understanding is that 83 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 4: it was like an in house team that already existed. Okay, 84 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 4: but Austin, you may be able to clarify that. 85 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:34,159 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's my understanding too. I think they have a 86 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 3: technology team within the agency that was using technology in 87 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:42,720 Speaker 3: various ways. I don't think we have a full understanding 88 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 3: of the scope of their responsibilities and the work that 89 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:48,040 Speaker 3: they've done. I think, to Jake's point, it is quite 90 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 3: interesting that they produce something for the public It's not unusual, 91 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 3: of course for large agencies to have teams in house 92 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 3: that deal with all of the general technology call challenges 93 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 3: that that every agency in twenty twenty three faces, you know, databases, 94 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 3: you know, keeping government cell phones working and secure and 95 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:11,480 Speaker 3: all of that, all of that kind of thing. But 96 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 3: a lot of the things that are public facing from 97 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:16,919 Speaker 3: federal agencies tend to be contracted out to a private 98 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:20,480 Speaker 3: vendor in some way. So this is it's quite unique, 99 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 3: and but I don't think we have a false scope 100 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:26,279 Speaker 3: of what they what they are aren't producing in house. 101 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, they that's interesting because they heavily rely on outside 102 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:32,799 Speaker 2: contractors for so much of it. Like there's a whole 103 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 2: industry that you know, starts here in San Diego and 104 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 2: goes over to Tucson and are probably further into New 105 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:43,279 Speaker 2: Mexico of people providing surveillance technology to border patrol and 106 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 2: then you know, it goes over to the West Bank too. 107 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 2: Lots of lots of it can be seen. Having talked 108 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 2: about they sort of unique approach to design, it's probably 109 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 2: a good idea to then talk about the implementation of 110 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 2: zapp and it's kind of lacklusters and understandment it just 111 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 2: fucking sucks. It's terrible. So like, in what many ways 112 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 2: has it been unfit for the purpose that it's supposed 113 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 2: to do. So I guess first we can talk about 114 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 2: technological and inadequacies, and then more broadly about why this 115 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 2: isn't a problem you can really solve with an app 116 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 2: on a telephone that needs to broadband and Wi Fi. 117 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, so I'll start by saying that I think a 118 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 4: lot of what's happening with the problem the CPP one 119 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 4: app is institutional blindness. So the people who design the app, 120 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 4: I genuinely think want it to work well, and I 121 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:37,160 Speaker 4: think they're simply not asking the questions that you need 122 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 4: to be asking. And when you design app like this, 123 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 4: which is who's really going to be using it? What 124 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 4: are their needs? What technology? What wireless services today? What 125 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:52,159 Speaker 4: phones are they using? Basically like, if you're someone on 126 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 4: the southern border with very little money and probably an 127 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:58,279 Speaker 4: outdated phone, yes, are you going to be able to 128 00:06:58,320 --> 00:06:58,839 Speaker 4: use this app? 129 00:06:58,880 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 3: Not a great camera? 130 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 4: And so I think the first place to start with 131 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 4: that is simply the fact that the app requires a 132 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 4: strong Wi Fi or sale signal to use, which is 133 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 4: not always present. And I think Austin has some good 134 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 4: insight into the problems with insufficient Wi Fi. 135 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely, you know, I think some of what's interesting 136 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:25,679 Speaker 3: here is the way not only that the app relies 137 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 3: on Wi Fi, but then the kind of real world 138 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 3: social consequences here for how people then try to cope 139 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 3: with these problems. I want to take one step back, 140 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 3: just really quickly and discuss the world that CBP was 141 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 3: dropped into, because there's some important context here. So as 142 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 3: I know you've already covered James. You know, over the 143 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 3: past three years, the dominant border control policy was titled 144 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 3: forty two, a COVID era policy that was purportedly motivated 145 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 3: by concerns about public health. This is where title forty 146 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 3: two comes from. Title forty two of the US Code 147 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 3: pertains to issues of questions of public health. It's not 148 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 3: an immigration policy. It was a public health policy, although 149 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 3: detailed reporting has I think pretty well established that it 150 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 3: was more of a political moment of political opportunism rather 151 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 3: than a legitimate public health concern. But regardless, that policy 152 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 3: allowed Customs and Border Protection to effectively turn back anyone 153 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:32,559 Speaker 3: who arrived at the border, whether they attempted to cross 154 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 3: unlawfully or not, and the primary human rights concern here 155 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 3: was people who were seeking asylum, which is their right 156 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:43,960 Speaker 3: to do. One of the aspects of Title forty two 157 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 3: was that there was a rare exemption clause built in 158 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 3: that allowed people who were particularly vulnerable a. 159 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 5: Particular humanitarian concern. 160 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 3: To attempt to effectively apply for this kind of exemption. 161 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 3: Until Anuary of this year, that process was run by 162 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 3: nonprofit organizations. CBP had this sort of informal outsourced system 163 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:10,679 Speaker 3: where NGOs on the Mexican side of the border would 164 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 3: effectively conduct massive amounts of intake and prioritization and triaging 165 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:19,960 Speaker 3: of these cases and then submit you know, names to 166 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:22,559 Speaker 3: CBP to a lot of people to come through ports 167 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 3: of entry. CBP one effectively replaced that system in January, 168 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 3: which meant that instead of migrants going through the NGOs, 169 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 3: they would have to download this app, fill out the 170 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 3: information and send it in. This is really important to 171 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:41,520 Speaker 3: mention because the groundwork was actually laid by a tremendous 172 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 3: amount of effectively unpaid labor on the backs of NGOs 173 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 3: on the southern side of the border. And you know, 174 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 3: is it is fair and accurate to say that this 175 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:55,560 Speaker 3: was an extremely imperfect system and that there were absolutely, 176 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 3: you know, significant issues with this. But one of the 177 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 3: interesting things is that the role that NGO's played meant 178 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 3: that people coming and seeking asylum would then in some 179 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 3: ways be potentially connected with a broader network of NGOs 180 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:17,680 Speaker 3: support services, advocacy and so forth. So the introduction of 181 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 3: CBP one purportedly bypassed the work of NGOs in screening 182 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 3: people for the exemption process. However, NGOs still ended up 183 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 3: performing all this kind of invisible labor because they're the 184 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 3: ones who effectively were working with migrants to make Wi 185 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 3: Fi available. And it's not just Wi Fi, it's actually 186 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 3: charging your phone. When I visited shelters and camps on 187 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:42,200 Speaker 3: the southern side of the border at the end of 188 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 3: twenty twenty two, a big part of their having camps 189 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:51,840 Speaker 3: and shelters was actually providing electricity, you know, when I 190 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 3: was there, and I know others have reported on this, James, 191 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 3: I'm sure you've seen this too. You know, people would 192 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 3: be huddled around the outlets because they needed to charge 193 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 3: their phone, if their phone didn't work, if their phone 194 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 3: wasn't charged, they didn't have access. Prior to CBP one, 195 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 3: this was already a challenge because the primary form of 196 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 3: communication with CBP was phone calls. They would individuals would 197 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 3: get phone calls. In fact, I interviewed the Russian family 198 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:20,839 Speaker 3: on the Mexican side of the border and Matamotos in 199 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 3: last November and a family now they and many of 200 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 3: the other migrants I spoke with, and this was also 201 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 3: true for many migrants. By the way, the families, typically 202 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:34,800 Speaker 3: the wife and children, if there were a family unit, 203 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 3: would stay either in a hotel or a shelter or 204 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:40,720 Speaker 3: someplace that was more safe, and then the men would 205 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 3: effectively have the nights on the street where they could 206 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 3: actually get cell phone coverage and things like that. So 207 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 3: CBP one introduced all of these kind of technological demands. 208 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:54,719 Speaker 3: It's not that they weren't there before, but I think 209 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:58,440 Speaker 3: it's a different matter when you go from interacting with 210 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:01,199 Speaker 3: a network of NGOs to say saying, now you're actually 211 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 3: interacting with the US government and this is the only 212 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 3: way that you're going to be able to enter the country. 213 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 3: I think those demands were quite high. They've clearly had 214 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:14,079 Speaker 3: some tremendously negative impacts from migrants trying. 215 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:14,680 Speaker 5: To come through that way. 216 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:18,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, I know have one here. But we've bought 217 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:23,679 Speaker 2: so many of these, like solar powered charging brick things 218 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 2: and distributed those. But I have so many photos of 219 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 2: people's hands reaching through the wall and people trying to 220 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 2: charge to their phone on the other side of the wall, 221 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:35,439 Speaker 2: you know, And it's been a big demand for a while. 222 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 2: But it's certainly when CBP were detaining people in places 223 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 2: where you didn't have power and then expecting them to 224 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 2: also communicate using their telephones, that became a particularly sort 225 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:49,200 Speaker 2: of ridiculous issue, very upsetting to see it like done 226 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 2: like that. So, yeah, this app really isn't a solution 227 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:57,320 Speaker 2: for the problem we're facing, which is, as you said, 228 00:12:57,320 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 2: like a three year backlug on people who have legitimate 229 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 2: sign claims being able to make those asylum claims. And 230 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 2: I guess can we talk about who it favors in, 231 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 2: you know, implementing this system as a catchule, right, not 232 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 2: an option, but the option Who does that favor and 233 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 2: who does it not? 234 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, before we get there, I think it might be 235 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:22,320 Speaker 4: helpful to just run through, like what it is like 236 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 4: to use CVP one. Oh, yeah, let's talk. You have 237 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:27,199 Speaker 4: to go through because it is a yeah, and that's 238 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 4: when you're thinking about that, think that every step is 239 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:34,080 Speaker 4: a potential failure. Point right, every step you could have 240 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:36,920 Speaker 4: a glitch, And anytime you have a glitch happen, it's 241 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:38,440 Speaker 4: going to kick you out of the app and. 242 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 3: You have to restart. 243 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:44,079 Speaker 4: So, if you're on a southern border you to apply 244 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 4: for asylum, you've been walking for months from Venezuela, Guatemala, 245 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 4: et cetera. 246 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 2: You got your phone. 247 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 4: The first thing you have to do is log into 248 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 4: the app through login dot gov. That's the single sign 249 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 4: on service that many government agencies use. H works fairly well, 250 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 4: but you got you need, so you register yourself a profile. 251 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 4: Then you're going to navigate over. Hopefully you speak one 252 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 4: of the languages that CPP one is available in. As 253 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 4: of now, I believe that's English, Spanish, and Haitian Creole, 254 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 4: although they may have added a new language recently. You 255 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 4: find the right place on the app, not always super clear, 256 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 4: to submit your asylum application and try and schedule an appointment. 257 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 4: And then you're going to have to fill out a 258 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 4: ton of information. You're giving CBP, your name, addresses, people 259 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 4: you know in the US, big form to fill out, 260 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 4: including often information on like how vulnerable you are, so 261 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 4: like are you pregnant, are you disabled? Have you been 262 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 4: threatened in Mexico? Information that they want to use to 263 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 4: prioritize you hopefully, and then you're going to need to 264 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 4: take a facial photo that's going to go into CBP 265 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 4: and Department Homeland Securities databases. It will be run against 266 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 4: facial recognition searches that they populate with, like this massive 267 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 4: facial recognition system, the Traveler Verification Service that can flag 268 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 4: people who are on CBP's target list TSA's target list. 269 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 3: You could be wrongfully flagged. 270 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 4: By that because facial recognition is not a perfect technology. 271 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 4: You're also going to take a facial liveness scan. It's 272 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 4: related to facial recognition, but it is different. It's a 273 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 4: different technology and it is untested. There's been no government 274 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 4: agency that has evaluated facial liveness for bias, and that 275 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 4: basically is trying to figure out are you a real 276 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 4: person or are you like a picture of James that 277 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 4: you're holding up because you're trying to get James an 278 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 4: appointment and then sell it to them later or something. 279 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 4: Do the facial liveness scan. That's been the sticking point 280 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 4: where folks with darker skin and indigenous folks have not 281 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:08,840 Speaker 4: been able to get through it. We can talk about 282 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 4: that a little later. Yeah, you're also going to do 283 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 4: a GPS pain so your phone, pulling from both cell 284 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 4: towers and GPS data, is going to try and establish 285 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 4: your location and send it to CBP. That can create 286 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 4: problems if you're pinging off a US cell tower, Suddenly 287 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 4: it's less reliable, might look like you're in the US. 288 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 3: And once you get. 289 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 4: Through all these steps, then you're able to submit your 290 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 4: information and you're in a lottery or whether or not 291 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 4: you get an appointment. 292 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 2: Great. Yeah, let's the photo thing. I think has been 293 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 2: covered maybe I but we've been covered extensively because this 294 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 2: is what I do. But I think maybe some people 295 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 2: aren't aware of the complete inadequacy of those facial liveness scans. 296 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 2: And I know some nonprofit since you want to have 297 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 2: light booths which can help with that, but it's not 298 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 2: you know, it's again like that money could be doing 299 00:16:57,160 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 2: something more useful, right and then making like a like 300 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 2: a Instagram booth for people who just want to use 301 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:05,680 Speaker 2: the exercise I llegal right to claim asylum. So let's 302 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 2: talk about that that technology and how it's not working. 303 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:12,639 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think one really important factor here, and the 304 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 3: reason I wanted to paint some of the contexts was 305 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:19,679 Speaker 3: and partly selfish because as a geographer, I'm always very 306 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:23,639 Speaker 3: you know, eager to evangelize about the importance of understanding 307 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 3: social geography for thinking about questions of you know, human 308 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 3: rights and asylum and immigration, so the facial life. This 309 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:34,119 Speaker 3: test is a great example of that. So you know, 310 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:36,679 Speaker 3: it's hard to see this unless you've been on the 311 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:40,439 Speaker 3: ground in some of these places. But you know, again, 312 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 3: just a historical thing I think will be pretty non controversial. 313 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:48,200 Speaker 3: Anti black racism is something that's existed for a very 314 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 3: long time. It's not just in the United States. It's 315 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:54,639 Speaker 3: around the world obviously, yeah, not everywhere, but but you know, 316 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 3: obviously through colonialism, through settler colonialism, and so forth. It's 317 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 3: really shaped not just anti black racism, but anti black 318 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 3: racism itself has produced many of the geographies that we have, 319 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:11,439 Speaker 3: from redlining, segregation, educational acts, all kinds of things. The 320 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 3: way that the social world looks today is already shaped 321 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 3: by these issues of racism. What that then means is 322 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 3: questions like who has access to cell phone towers and 323 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:28,640 Speaker 3: fast Wi Fi, and who can afford up to date 324 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 3: smartphones that can meet all of the threshold of require 325 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:37,920 Speaker 3: the technological requirements to this to use this apvenues of 326 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:44,160 Speaker 3: software is already distributed and fractured by questions of race 327 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:47,880 Speaker 3: and identity. What that means is, even if the facial 328 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 3: liveness test worked perfectly and there were no issues with 329 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 3: the software, which is not true, but let's even just 330 00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 3: assume that it is still true that acts to that 331 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 3: technology and software is already structured by race. So one 332 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:06,240 Speaker 3: of the things I noticed, you know, having spent time 333 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 3: along the border, was just how much even in some 334 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 3: of the shelters and where black and African migrants had 335 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 3: access to shelter, was itself much tended to be more 336 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 3: pushed to the out outside of the where you're less 337 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:24,239 Speaker 3: likely to get good cell phone coverage, less likely to 338 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 3: have electricity, much more likely that the roads even where 339 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:30,640 Speaker 3: I visited, were not paved. And I was there when 340 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:35,679 Speaker 3: it was raining in Reynosa one day, and you know, 341 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:39,680 Speaker 3: some of the places where African migrants and African families 342 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:43,879 Speaker 3: were staying, and black migrants, by the way from Latin America. 343 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 3: Let's just remind everyone that there are black Latinos living 344 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:51,400 Speaker 3: in Latin America, right, were also pushed you know, more 345 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 3: to the outskirts, and as a result of that, those 346 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:59,679 Speaker 3: factors contributed to access. So it wasn't just issues with 347 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 3: theware itself, which may be there. It's hard for me 348 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 3: to evaluate. It's not, you know, because it's not like 349 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:07,120 Speaker 3: we've done our own evaluation of that. But it's also 350 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:09,359 Speaker 3: all of those contextual factors. And I just want to 351 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:12,640 Speaker 3: make a fine point on this. We know that already. 352 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 3: CBP should understand that already and understand the various social 353 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 3: factors that impact access. So simply saying, for instance, if 354 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 3: one wanted to take a defensive position and say, well, look, 355 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 3: we ran the test, the software works as intended, there's 356 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 3: no racial bias in the software. That doesn't get CBP 357 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:34,360 Speaker 3: out of the responsibility of saying yes, but you absolutely 358 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 3: had all the information and a reasonable person should have 359 00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:40,640 Speaker 3: known that this access to this app or had these 360 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 3: kind of technological requirements and that access was not evenly distributed. 361 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's really important you said that, actually 362 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:50,359 Speaker 2: because a lot of reporters it does get reporters on. 363 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:52,119 Speaker 2: There are people doing great work, but like sometimes it 364 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 2: gets missed because African migrants might not speak Spanish Black 365 00:20:55,880 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 2: African migrants and a lot of reporters don't have the 366 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:04,359 Speaker 2: language skills to talk to people in I worked with 367 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 2: a fixer who spoke a Romo and to Grayan and 368 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 2: a lot of other, like five or six other languages, 369 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:13,639 Speaker 2: and that helped to get me an insight into the 370 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:17,639 Speaker 2: very difficult situation that lots of African people face. And 371 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,639 Speaker 2: you know that their isolation and the relative lack of 372 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 2: resources even in what's a pretty resource spar setting for everyone, 373 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 2: and Haitian people, I've spoken to a lot of Haitian people. 374 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:31,159 Speaker 2: Plus then you add that, like if I think about 375 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:35,960 Speaker 2: last month, the languages which I was able with through friends, 376 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 2: through translation to speak to people with you know, Vietnamese 377 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:45,399 Speaker 2: command you is a dialect of Kurdish, French, right, Swahili, Spanish, 378 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 2: evidently Dutch aside from Spanish, those are not covered. Maybe 379 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 2: if you're French you can, I think it would be 380 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 2: still hard to work in Haitian creole of you if 381 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:59,199 Speaker 2: you spoke sort of more mainland French, those are not 382 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:02,199 Speaker 2: covered by that, right, so you have to find a 383 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 2: way to access that with via translation, And then it's 384 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:09,720 Speaker 2: very the information makes you incredibly vulnerable to whomever of 385 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:12,959 Speaker 2: you if you're asking someone to share. Right, It's imperfect. 386 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 2: It's not a sufficient way to describe it, but it 387 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 2: extremely flawed system. 388 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:22,680 Speaker 3: To Jake's point, like, I'm also like kind of open 389 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:27,679 Speaker 3: minded about, you know, about using an app like this. 390 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:30,159 Speaker 3: I mean, there's I mean Jake's right, I mean, if 391 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:32,640 Speaker 3: you're going to have a government in twenty twenty three, 392 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:36,160 Speaker 3: like having some reasonably up to date ways to do 393 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 3: things is not an unreasonable expectation. 394 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:42,159 Speaker 5: But there's just so many blatantly. 395 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 3: Obvious sort of shortcomings that are not difficult to identify 396 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:52,560 Speaker 3: in preparing this app and understanding what people are likely 397 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 3: to need, so to have those gaps, and then also 398 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 3: to roll out the app at a time when the 399 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 3: same policy announcement that rolls out this app is also 400 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 3: a policy announcement that says this is the only way 401 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 3: to do it. I mean, imagine if like your new 402 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 3: policy for like healthcare for some you know, particular healthcare 403 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 3: you know, thing was like, we have to go through 404 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:17,480 Speaker 3: this route, and we know that eighty percent of people 405 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 3: aren't going to be able to use this, but now 406 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 3: this is the only treatment you have an. 407 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 5: Option for I mean that would be that it's just strange. 408 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:27,159 Speaker 3: I think I think one thing to just think about 409 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:31,119 Speaker 3: creatively here is I can imagine a phase rollout of 410 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:33,119 Speaker 3: this where they did improve it over time, that they 411 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 3: were adequate, you know, outlets for people who didn't fit 412 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 3: into the categories that they had built into the app. 413 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:42,880 Speaker 3: And I think I think that would be a more 414 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 3: complex and more nuanced than maybe a more more interesting 415 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 3: way to do it. I just don't think I don't 416 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:50,359 Speaker 3: think it was rolled out responsibly in that way. 417 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:53,919 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I think we should be honest that beta 418 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,680 Speaker 4: testing an app on hundreds of thousands of the most 419 00:23:56,760 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 4: vulnerable people in the world is incredibly responsible. 420 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's just cruel. It's not in any way appropriate. 421 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 2: So I guess we've talked a lot about this app. 422 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 2: Let's talk about let's say you're fortunate enough to get 423 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:14,919 Speaker 2: an a sign of appointment here to enter the US. 424 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:18,879 Speaker 2: You would then, in most cases enter something which is 425 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 2: called CBP's Alternatives to Detention Systems. Icis, sorry, Yeah, you're right. 426 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 2: Let's explain a little bit like why it's an alternative 427 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 2: to detention? Why would one be detained if you haven't 428 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 2: in theory, done anything wrong, well, in many people's perspective, 429 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:36,760 Speaker 2: have done anything wrong, I guess. And then what does 430 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 2: ATD mean? And then we can get into some of 431 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 2: the privacy issues and the way that it affects not 432 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:45,720 Speaker 2: just migrants but also everyone. 433 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, one thing before we go there, I think would 434 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:52,360 Speaker 4: be great, just closing the loop on the racial bias discussion. 435 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 4: This is like an element of my advocacy that I 436 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,439 Speaker 4: talk about all the time in different areas of like 437 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,159 Speaker 4: how fish recognition is used when it's using the criminal 438 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:07,440 Speaker 4: justice system, is that there absolutely is bias in most 439 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 4: facial recognition systems. They work really well for white men 440 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 4: and increase increasingly less well basically as you run down 441 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:19,159 Speaker 4: the privileged spectrum. That's an element of how these systems 442 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 4: are designed, right, It's they get fed a lot of 443 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 4: images of white men and fewer images of other folks. 444 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:32,159 Speaker 4: That's fixable, right, like you can provide a training database 445 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:36,119 Speaker 4: that is a whole, you know, a good spread of people. 446 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 4: It seems to not necessarily have been done with the 447 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:45,680 Speaker 4: facial liveness for CBP one, in part because the British 448 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 4: company that designed it probably did not have access to 449 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:51,919 Speaker 4: a lot of images of the type of people who 450 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 4: would be on the southern border. You're talking about like 451 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 4: Indigenous Mexican folks v. Shield folks, just a very large 452 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 4: number of different ethnicities. But any bias like that is, 453 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:08,239 Speaker 4: as Austin said, sitting on top of a series of 454 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 4: other biases, right of structural biases. And so the result 455 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:15,399 Speaker 4: we see with a lot of facial recognition systems, and 456 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 4: this facial ibness system is ceb going is no different. 457 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:20,280 Speaker 4: Is that a little bit of even to a little 458 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 4: bit of bias in how the facial recognition works gets amplified, 459 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 4: and it's amplified by social biases. It's amplified by the 460 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:32,879 Speaker 4: biases of people who run the system and people who 461 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:36,160 Speaker 4: interact with it every day, and then it's amplified by 462 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:41,240 Speaker 4: institutional blindness as well, failure to recognize a problem. We 463 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:45,919 Speaker 4: had facial recognition systems rolled out since on some levels 464 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,919 Speaker 4: since like the early to mid two thousands, and we 465 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 4: didn't even know that facial that bias was a problem 466 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 4: in any facial recognition system until twenty eighteen. So when 467 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:58,879 Speaker 4: you're thinking about and you're hearing about like bias testing 468 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,720 Speaker 4: and the fact that it's been bias tested. Those tests 469 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 4: are never incredibly reliable because they're not done in the 470 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 4: real world, they're not done with the people actually using 471 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 4: the technology. 472 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:09,440 Speaker 3: They're done in a. 473 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:13,119 Speaker 4: Controlled setting, and they're not done by people who have 474 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 4: a nuanced understanding of how the technology impacts people. Yeah, 475 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:21,520 Speaker 4: I think it's very important to remember that. Yeah, there's 476 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 4: layers upon layers of bias, and they stack to make 477 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 4: it harder and harder for certain people coming to the 478 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:31,960 Speaker 4: United States to get Again, what's that right? Often to 479 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 4: just be safe, right, like some people, especially the less 480 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 4: advantage you are sort of on a global scale, the 481 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,520 Speaker 4: likely the less safe you are waiting in Mexico to 482 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 4: make an appointment for your asylum. Right, Like, if you 483 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:47,400 Speaker 4: can't get into a shelter, or you're from a group 484 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 4: where you don't have community to look out for you, you're 485 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,440 Speaker 4: just that bit more likely to be taken advantage of 486 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,680 Speaker 4: or have something bad happen to you or your family. So, yeah, 487 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:57,960 Speaker 4: it'll stacks up, I guess, to make for a very 488 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:02,639 Speaker 4: unfortunate situation for people. Yeah, which means the consequence of 489 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 4: having a glitch happen is way higher. 490 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 2: Yes, I've personally known people who have had terrible consequences 491 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,440 Speaker 2: from what should have been a very very straightforward asylum 492 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:17,240 Speaker 2: application and very easy to process very rapidly. Yeah, it's 493 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 2: it's it's a whole it's a whole mess. And I 494 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,280 Speaker 2: know I'm trying to speak more to some of the 495 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 2: folks who work with African migrants because I think that often, yeah, 496 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 2: their stories just don't get told, especially at our southern border, 497 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 2: where like I think obviously there's this like a lot 498 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 2: of people like to report on the border but not 499 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:41,320 Speaker 2: leave New York or DC or wherever they have their 500 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 2: studio or newspaper or what have you. And I think 501 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 2: it's easy to miss that if you haven't, like Gosud said, 502 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 2: been around a lot and seen all these things to 503 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 2: stack up on top of one another. But yeah, it's 504 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 2: an important topic that we don't especially as like I know, 505 00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 2: it doesn't get reported on because everyone likes to report 506 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 2: on Ukraine and only Ukraine, Like there's more wars in 507 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 2: Africa or wars in you know, certain people from Myanmar, 508 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:08,640 Speaker 2: it's very hard for them to get to the southern border. 509 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 2: Actually from hearing from thousands maybe different cases where people 510 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 2: can't leave Thailand. But again, the system you know, when 511 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 2: you have a whole other alphabet that you're trying to 512 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 2: access the system in and it doesn't work for you 513 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 2: then and that makes it incredibly difficult for those people. 514 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 2: And that, ladies and gentlemen, is what we call a 515 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 2: cliffhanger in the podcasting industry. Because we will be back 516 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 2: tomorrow with more on how ICE tracks migrants and how 517 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:35,680 Speaker 2: that tracking of migrants can impact other people, people who 518 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 2: live with them, people in their communities. I hope you're 519 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 2: joined us then, thanks by hi everyone to James, and 520 00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 2: I am back with Austin and Jake to discuss ICE's 521 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 2: Alternatives to two tent program today. If you didn't listened 522 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 2: to yesterday's episode on CBP one and a little bit 523 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 2: of at D, then I suggest starting there because there's 524 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 2: a lot of context that you might be missing in 525 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:14,600 Speaker 2: today's episode. Let's talk about alternatives to detention a bit 526 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 2: that's this is a this is a once inside the 527 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 2: US system, right, so it's a little different. It's people 528 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 2: who've managed to get through the significant hurdles post by 529 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 2: CBP one. What happened to them? Then? 530 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:32,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, so you know ICE has the option of detaining 531 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 3: people at immigrant Detention facilities. This includes people who are 532 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 3: facing deportation. Most people who are facing deportation. 533 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 2: Can you explain that the Title eight thing, because people 534 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:47,240 Speaker 2: might not be for I've tried to explain that before, 535 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:48,720 Speaker 2: but I'd love you to explain that again, just so 536 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 2: people are clear regarding detention, well regarding like finding a 537 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:57,720 Speaker 2: defensive asylum application and why people might be doing that, 538 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,560 Speaker 2: like post like the post Title forty two sort of 539 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 2: paradigm for processing asylum. 540 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, sure, Okay, So Title forty two, which we talked 541 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 3: about earlier, has gone away, which means now Title eight 542 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:14,960 Speaker 3: is not like Title forty two. It's the part of 543 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 3: the US law which is about immigration. Title eight never 544 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:24,040 Speaker 3: went away, but it is now the dominant section of 545 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:28,760 Speaker 3: code that is shaping border enforcement and immigration processing. When 546 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 3: someone comes through CBP one and they get an appointment, 547 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 3: they go to their interview for the entry. Then they 548 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 3: come into the United States. They have not made an 549 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:42,720 Speaker 3: asylum application yet, so they still have to do that. 550 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,800 Speaker 3: And the United States has two options at this point. 551 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 3: There's two agencies that can make decisions, can receive asylum 552 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 3: applications and make decisions. USCIS, which is historically the primary 553 00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 3: one US Citizenship and Immigration Services. They have what are 554 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:05,720 Speaker 3: called asylum officers whose job it is to adjudicate assylum applications, 555 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:10,480 Speaker 3: interview people and so forth. Or people the United States 556 00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 3: can file removal proceedings deportation cases effectively against these individuals 557 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 3: and put them into immigration court, where an immigration judge 558 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 3: can accept an assiled application and adjudicate the assigled application. 559 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,240 Speaker 3: The major difference here is that in the court room 560 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:32,160 Speaker 3: in the immigration court system, that individual is going in 561 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 3: front of a judge and has an ICE officer, an 562 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:43,120 Speaker 3: enforcement related kind of attorney effectively arguing against them in court. Technically, 563 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:45,960 Speaker 3: they're not supposed to be arguing against them per se. 564 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,440 Speaker 3: They're supposed to be finding the right outcome, but effectively 565 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:52,240 Speaker 3: they're arguing against them, almost like they're, you know, trying 566 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:54,720 Speaker 3: to apply for asylum and immigration court or in like 567 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:58,720 Speaker 3: a criminal court setting. Almost not really, but almost right. 568 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 3: So here's the two main differences when those individuals. You know, historically, 569 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:06,720 Speaker 3: when people have been put into the immigration court system, 570 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 3: ICE does have the option of detaining them, or at 571 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 3: least detaining them for an early part of that process 572 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 3: until they meet some certain tolds. The Biden administration has 573 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:21,640 Speaker 3: decided largely at this point not to go that route. 574 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 3: That has not been true in the past. The Trump 575 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 3: administration's detention numbers were up well over sixty thousand people 576 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:30,720 Speaker 3: detained the day at one point. Right now, it's about 577 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 3: half that it's up from the beginning of the year. 578 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,560 Speaker 3: But it's about almost thirty thousand people are in detention now, 579 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,640 Speaker 3: and people seem to be moving through even when they 580 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 3: are detained, relatively quickly. This is where alternatives to detention 581 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 3: come in. We should not think of alternatives to detention 582 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:52,640 Speaker 3: as alternatives detention. In fact, ICE itself has said on 583 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:57,320 Speaker 3: their website and in testimony before Congress, alternatives to detention 584 00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:01,320 Speaker 3: is not an alternative to detention. It is an alternative 585 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:06,880 Speaker 3: to unsupervised release. So it's what it really is is 586 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 3: an electronic monitoring program that allows the agency to effectively 587 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:14,600 Speaker 3: keep track of everyone that they want to keep track of. Now, 588 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:17,840 Speaker 3: the number of people in this alternatives to detention program 589 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 3: is an extremely small fraction of the number of asylum 590 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:25,279 Speaker 3: systems in court. It is nowhere near, you know, saturating 591 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:28,760 Speaker 3: the total number of people that they could be. One 592 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,960 Speaker 3: wonders whether they consider five percent monitoring some kind of 593 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,120 Speaker 3: massive success when you know, when most people are actually 594 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:39,520 Speaker 3: not monitored. But one major change has happened, which is 595 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:43,400 Speaker 3: in addition to the smartphone app that migrants use to 596 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:47,440 Speaker 3: even try to seek asylum, now migrants also have to 597 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:51,960 Speaker 3: download an app called smart Link. That is now this 598 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,160 Speaker 3: one is not built in house. This is contracted out 599 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:59,719 Speaker 3: from an organization called BI that effectively mostly contracts with 600 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 3: the fminal Justice system, but they also contract with ICE. 601 00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:05,520 Speaker 3: So they have to download an app on their phone 602 00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:10,080 Speaker 3: and they have to check in regularly using a similar 603 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 3: but different kind of facial technology. They can communicate with 604 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:19,319 Speaker 3: deportation officers, they can get alerts about their immigration court here, 605 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,440 Speaker 3: all this stuff, but the crucial part of that is 606 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:27,759 Speaker 3: under threat of detention or redetention, redetaining migrants have to 607 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,600 Speaker 3: check in on their smartphone. So it means that that 608 00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 3: same phone that one you know, struggled with on the 609 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 3: periphery of Vernosa trying to just even get into the 610 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:38,560 Speaker 3: United States to pursue what is their legal right to 611 00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:42,080 Speaker 3: pursue asylum, now they're glued to their smartphone, worried that 612 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,080 Speaker 3: if they don't respond to, you know, a text message 613 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:47,480 Speaker 3: or an alert or a ping on their phone, they 614 00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:50,680 Speaker 3: could be redetained and you know, potentially deported in some way. 615 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:53,960 Speaker 3: So that that's currently how the system. So it's not 616 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:57,440 Speaker 3: for everyone. It's not as if everyone follows this exact 617 00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,239 Speaker 3: same path, but it is true, and I think this 618 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,480 Speaker 3: is the big takeaway. It is true that asylum seekers 619 00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:07,240 Speaker 3: today will start interacting with the US government, may start 620 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:10,120 Speaker 3: interacting with the US government on their smartphone as far 621 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:14,839 Speaker 3: south as Mexico City, and then continue to have their 622 00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:19,160 Speaker 3: primary contact and interaction with the US government on their 623 00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:23,200 Speaker 3: smartphone all the way through the border and to Columbus, Ohio, 624 00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:27,200 Speaker 3: New York City, Seattle, Washington. So the smartphone has become 625 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:30,640 Speaker 3: effectively this kind of what I am trying to think 626 00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:33,560 Speaker 3: of and conceptualize as a kind of mobile border. They 627 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,759 Speaker 3: never where, migrants never really arrive, and they never really leave. 628 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:40,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's kind of not to get too sort of 629 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:43,239 Speaker 2: I guess not conspiratory, it's their own word. But like 630 00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:45,719 Speaker 2: since two thousand and one, the border has come to 631 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 2: you more and more and more, right, and you don't 632 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:49,840 Speaker 2: have to go to the border for the border to 633 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,160 Speaker 2: surveil you. And we can see this in hundreds of ways. 634 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,320 Speaker 2: Can we backtrack a little bit, just because our listeners 635 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:58,120 Speaker 2: will be familiar with some of the human stories that 636 00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:02,040 Speaker 2: surrounded the end of Title forty two. Some of those people, 637 00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:05,920 Speaker 2: to my understanding, entered the United States. I'm doing heavy 638 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 2: air quotes between ports of entry under Title forty two, 639 00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:17,080 Speaker 2: but then were detained. That it is fairly obvious they 640 00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:19,120 Speaker 2: thought they were being detained. It looked very much like 641 00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:21,960 Speaker 2: they were being detained. They weren't allowed to leave. CBP 642 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 2: apparently would argue that they were not detained because the 643 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:31,680 Speaker 2: conditions were wofully inadequate by their own detention policies, which 644 00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:34,839 Speaker 2: don't exactly provide for luxurious conditions to begin with, And 645 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:38,360 Speaker 2: so what would the situation be for those people because 646 00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:42,400 Speaker 2: they haven't They were trying, at least some people I 647 00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,160 Speaker 2: spoke to to make CBP one appointments from a place 648 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:49,360 Speaker 2: of detention, which I don't think one can do. Maybe 649 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:51,920 Speaker 2: one can if one's not on a list or something, 650 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:54,680 Speaker 2: but you still have to get there right and you 651 00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,480 Speaker 2: can't leave south or north to access. 652 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,360 Speaker 3: You have to be in Mexico to schedule and appointment 653 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:01,279 Speaker 3: on CBP one. 654 00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:04,680 Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, these guys were in between the border walls. 655 00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:06,840 Speaker 5: As Jake knows better than I do. 656 00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:10,040 Speaker 3: I mean the issue with being along the border, and James, 657 00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:13,239 Speaker 3: you know this because I mean you're there, which cell 658 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:15,520 Speaker 3: tower you're on if you're close to the border. 659 00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:17,960 Speaker 5: Oh yeah, tricky, isn't it. 660 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:22,040 Speaker 2: I got so I use T mobile. That's a free 661 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:26,520 Speaker 2: buzz marketing. But they I have roam free roaming on 662 00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:28,400 Speaker 2: my phone, right, very useful in the work I do. 663 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:33,480 Speaker 2: But I remember in twenty eighteen, I was in Mexico 664 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:35,279 Speaker 2: a lot, and then I was obviously also just riding 665 00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:37,200 Speaker 2: my bike a lot in places along the border, and 666 00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:40,000 Speaker 2: they were like, you've been in Mexico every day this month. 667 00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:42,520 Speaker 2: You don't live in America. We're going to cancel your 668 00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:46,280 Speaker 2: phone contract. I had been in Mexico like some days, 669 00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,040 Speaker 2: but they had all just think, oh, you're pinging Mexican celtoer. 670 00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:50,600 Speaker 2: Yeah what I was on a bike ride, like in 671 00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:53,040 Speaker 2: East County, San Diego. I wasn't in Mexico, but my 672 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:56,520 Speaker 2: phone thought, I was, so, yeah, the same thing can 673 00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:58,960 Speaker 2: happen in reverse, right, You're your phone can pink American 674 00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:02,120 Speaker 2: cell towers when you're in Mexico. So those people might 675 00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:03,920 Speaker 2: appear to be in the US when they're not. But 676 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:07,400 Speaker 2: in that situation, they couldn't make a cbp U apployment. 677 00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:10,080 Speaker 2: So I guess they're assumed to have. It's the same 678 00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:13,920 Speaker 2: as if they crossed the fence somewhere else and been 679 00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:17,640 Speaker 2: detained ten miles inside the United States, right, what would 680 00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:19,239 Speaker 2: their process be? 681 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:23,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, So I think if we're talking about right now, 682 00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:26,480 Speaker 4: this is actually really important. Is that the new rule 683 00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:29,799 Speaker 4: called Circumvention of Lawful Pathways that replaced Title forty two 684 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:35,000 Speaker 4: supposed to happen like three years ago. Yeah, and it 685 00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:39,279 Speaker 4: finally got passed. Basically, there were a number of court 686 00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:44,000 Speaker 4: challenges in which Red States tried to keep Title forty 687 00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:48,600 Speaker 4: two in place. The same states, mind you, who were 688 00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:54,200 Speaker 4: very critical of COVID protections, were extremely worried about lifting 689 00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:57,279 Speaker 4: the ban on people in the southern border coming in 690 00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:02,919 Speaker 4: because of COVID concerns. Part of what that rulemaking did 691 00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:06,319 Speaker 4: was it worked a fundamental change in the way that 692 00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:12,760 Speaker 4: asylum seevers work and so like just context asylum claiming 693 00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,359 Speaker 4: asylum is a human right, is a right guaranteed by 694 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:18,520 Speaker 4: international law, is the right guaranteed by US law that 695 00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:21,520 Speaker 4: you can show up and say, hey, I am not 696 00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:24,880 Speaker 4: safe in the country that I'm coming from and I 697 00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:27,200 Speaker 4: need asylum in the States, and you have a right 698 00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:29,840 Speaker 4: to do that, and for the US or whatever country 699 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:32,160 Speaker 4: you arrive in to process your claim and decide if 700 00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:36,080 Speaker 4: it's valid or not. So one of the changes in 701 00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:40,799 Speaker 4: this rule making was that they are applying what's called 702 00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:44,800 Speaker 4: the government is applying a presumption of ineligibility to people 703 00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:48,239 Speaker 4: seeking asylum, which means that if you did not show 704 00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,560 Speaker 4: up in the proper manner the United States. That means 705 00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:54,239 Speaker 4: if you did not use the CBP one app to 706 00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:57,839 Speaker 4: claim asylum before you got to the border, and if 707 00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:00,480 Speaker 4: you did not apply for asylum in every country that 708 00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:05,040 Speaker 4: you traveled through along the way. If you traveled from 709 00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:08,360 Speaker 4: Guatemala and you did not pay for apply for asylum 710 00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:10,960 Speaker 4: in Mexico before you got to the border, you are 711 00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:15,400 Speaker 4: automatically deemed ineligible and your asylum claim will be denied 712 00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:20,680 Speaker 4: with no hearing, with no opportunity to say, hi, I'm 713 00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:25,640 Speaker 4: here because like my husband is a police officer somewhere 714 00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,680 Speaker 4: in Guatemala and he's trying to kill me, and I 715 00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:32,360 Speaker 4: can't stay in the country, right And so that is 716 00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:36,080 Speaker 4: a fundamental change in the way the law works. And 717 00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:39,960 Speaker 4: that's the starting point of someone who has frost illegally 718 00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:43,799 Speaker 4: not used CBP one and then is picked up's and 719 00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:45,680 Speaker 4: that's new in the law in twenty twenty three. 720 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:49,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, and so they would immediately be filing like a 721 00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:52,840 Speaker 2: defensive asylum application to prevent that removal. 722 00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:57,640 Speaker 4: Yes, And basically at that point you're trying to argue 723 00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:01,560 Speaker 4: for one of a tiny subset of exemptions, yes, which 724 00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:06,759 Speaker 4: there is virtually no guidance on how to implement those exemptions, right. Like, 725 00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:10,280 Speaker 4: one thing you can claim is that you cross without 726 00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:13,800 Speaker 4: a CVP one appointment because you couldn't use the app 727 00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:18,920 Speaker 4: The idea of trying to prove to someone at the 728 00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:22,920 Speaker 4: Customs of Border Protection that you were technologically enabled to 729 00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:27,560 Speaker 4: use an app seems basically impossible, given that the only 730 00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:31,000 Speaker 4: proof that you have is that you didn't get the appointment, right, 731 00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:33,759 Speaker 4: that you weren't able to submit it. That's not a 732 00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:35,920 Speaker 4: strong record that a lawyer would like to argue on, 733 00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:36,839 Speaker 4: I will tell you. 734 00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:37,400 Speaker 2: As a lawyer. 735 00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:43,680 Speaker 4: And so the result is basically that people who have 736 00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:47,960 Speaker 4: certainly legitimate asylum claims are likely to be turned away 737 00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:50,480 Speaker 4: because they didn't comply with the proper process. 738 00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:54,920 Speaker 2: Yeah. Even people we heard dabig. I can't remember where 739 00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:59,319 Speaker 2: it was now where Customs officials in Mexico have been 740 00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:03,080 Speaker 2: threatening to do people for longer than it so they 741 00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:05,680 Speaker 2: couldn't make it in time for their CBP one appointment, 742 00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:08,759 Speaker 2: right that they had already made. They're gone through that 743 00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:11,839 Speaker 2: arduous and bias process, made the appointment, and then people 744 00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:14,680 Speaker 2: were being detained unless they paid a bribe. And then 745 00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:18,520 Speaker 2: then if those people had crossed like legally in between 746 00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:20,200 Speaker 2: ports of entry, that would be very harder than to 747 00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:22,960 Speaker 2: prove that they could that that had happened at all, right, 748 00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:25,480 Speaker 2: like what had caused him to do that? So those 749 00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:30,480 Speaker 2: people are in an even more difficult scenario. If people then, 750 00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:34,520 Speaker 2: through any of these processes, find themselves in a ATD 751 00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:39,160 Speaker 2: alternative to detention, there are numerous ways it could be surveyed. 752 00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:42,600 Speaker 2: Alston mentioned that the phone app which I think is 753 00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:47,280 Speaker 2: the perhaps the most recent and most common one. Another 754 00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:50,279 Speaker 2: one is ankor monitors. Right, you can get like a 755 00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:53,759 Speaker 2: parole kind of ank style of ankor monitor And I 756 00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:56,799 Speaker 2: know that, Jake, you've written a little bit about some 757 00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:59,279 Speaker 2: of the consequences of those. Do you want to talk 758 00:43:59,280 --> 00:43:59,680 Speaker 2: about that? 759 00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:03,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, So, first of all, an overview of the ATV 760 00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:08,279 Speaker 4: program is that there are different levels of monitoring and 761 00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:11,480 Speaker 4: all of them are I think should functionally be viewed 762 00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:14,680 Speaker 4: as incarceration, which is to say that you are not 763 00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:18,239 Speaker 4: You've not been released from custody, just the location of 764 00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:23,240 Speaker 4: your custody has been moved from a prison to somewhere 765 00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:26,480 Speaker 4: out in the world where you're being surveilled and your 766 00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:30,759 Speaker 4: movements are potentially tracked. But you are still in many 767 00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:34,160 Speaker 4: ways as vulnerable as you would be if you're actually 768 00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:39,359 Speaker 4: in a jail or a prison, and so ICE has 769 00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:42,680 Speaker 4: the option to decide at their discretion which level of 770 00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:46,880 Speaker 4: monitoring you get. The levels of monitoring, the highest level 771 00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:51,239 Speaker 4: is an ankle bracelet or an ankle shackle, that is 772 00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:56,960 Speaker 4: a GPS device that is battery power, has potentially only 773 00:44:57,000 --> 00:44:59,239 Speaker 4: a few hours of charge on it, you might get 774 00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:01,759 Speaker 4: a day of charge off of it, and is constantly 775 00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:06,000 Speaker 4: monitoring your location and sending that location back to both 776 00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:12,359 Speaker 4: ICE and to the contracting staff of BI Industries. This 777 00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:18,120 Speaker 4: prison technology company, who ICE has hired as case managers, 778 00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:23,880 Speaker 4: basically people who are providing support for ICE on keeping 779 00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:28,120 Speaker 4: track of the usually eight to ten thousand people who 780 00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:31,040 Speaker 4: are on the ankle monitor system. 781 00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:33,319 Speaker 3: If you don't get quite that. 782 00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:35,760 Speaker 4: High level, or if you get de escalated over time, 783 00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:38,000 Speaker 4: you applied ICE and you say, hey, I've been on 784 00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:41,840 Speaker 4: my ankle bracelet for like three months, I've not straight 785 00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:44,280 Speaker 4: outside the area I'm supposed to go. I've always responded 786 00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:47,080 Speaker 4: to check ins. Then they might bump you down to 787 00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:50,799 Speaker 4: the smart Link app, also provided by BI Industries on 788 00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:53,799 Speaker 4: an extremely lucrative contract. Their last contract was like two 789 00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:59,040 Speaker 4: point two billion dollars. And that smart link app is 790 00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:01,080 Speaker 4: either going to be loaded on your smartphone if you 791 00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:03,000 Speaker 4: have a smartphone that can handle it, or you'll be 792 00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:07,120 Speaker 4: given a smartphone buy ICE and told to use that 793 00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:11,239 Speaker 4: smartphone to check in. You will be required to check 794 00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:16,239 Speaker 4: in on a sort of regular schedule. I don't have 795 00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:21,440 Speaker 4: a strong sense for how often that is. Could be daily, 796 00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:25,520 Speaker 4: could be less. To check in, you're going to open 797 00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:27,800 Speaker 4: the app up, it's going to ping your GPS location, 798 00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:30,720 Speaker 4: send a dice, and then you're going to take official 799 00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:34,239 Speaker 4: recognition photograph. That photograph will be compared to make sure 800 00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:38,240 Speaker 4: that you're actually you. That photograph is also potentially capturing 801 00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:41,680 Speaker 4: your surroundings, the people you live with, whoever's like in 802 00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:45,440 Speaker 4: the frame, and then you can communicate with your case manager. 803 00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:49,319 Speaker 4: On the app, you can potentially find information on when 804 00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:50,879 Speaker 4: your immigration court hearings are. 805 00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:51,600 Speaker 3: That type of thing. 806 00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:54,880 Speaker 4: It's the middle level of monitoring. The lowest level of 807 00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:59,200 Speaker 4: monitoring is voice print based. So basically, every once in 808 00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:01,960 Speaker 4: a while, whatever or your dedicated check in time is, 809 00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:05,680 Speaker 4: you're going to call into ICE on your phone. You're 810 00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:10,239 Speaker 4: gonna say Hi, I'm Jake Wiener, I'm checking in, and 811 00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:13,080 Speaker 4: ICE will run a voice print analysis and make sure 812 00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:15,279 Speaker 4: that you are the person who say you are and 813 00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:16,280 Speaker 4: confirm your location. 814 00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:19,400 Speaker 3: At any point, if. 815 00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:25,360 Speaker 4: That system screws up, you are potentially you're then in 816 00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:28,839 Speaker 4: violation of the terms of your release. And at any 817 00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:32,359 Speaker 4: point ICE, if you've there's been an error, an ICE 818 00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:34,720 Speaker 4: officer can show up and take you right back to jail. 819 00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:39,359 Speaker 2: Let's talk a little bit about that you've mentioned BI. Right, 820 00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:42,040 Speaker 2: you've both mentioned BI. This is not a government agency, 821 00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:45,719 Speaker 2: this is a contractor. But potentially they have access to 822 00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:52,480 Speaker 2: your photograph, details of your asylum case and were we 823 00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:55,320 Speaker 2: very clear on like certainly with the ICE issued phones, 824 00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:58,440 Speaker 2: people seem to have concerns like what is being monitored 825 00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:00,440 Speaker 2: and what isn't being monitored on the phone, right like, 826 00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:03,040 Speaker 2: is it only when they have the app open? Is 827 00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:07,120 Speaker 2: everything on their phone now subject to a review by 828 00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:11,040 Speaker 2: ICE and potentially also by this third party contractor? Right? So, 829 00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:14,759 Speaker 2: how are those contractors vetting their person now? How are 830 00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:17,960 Speaker 2: they're making sure that these this very sensitive information is 831 00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:19,640 Speaker 2: secure in private like it should be. 832 00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:22,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, I have no idea how they're vetting their staff. 833 00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:29,200 Speaker 4: They're not exactly forthcoming. One aspect of the surveillance that 834 00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:33,799 Speaker 4: I think is worth noting is that both ICE and 835 00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:38,480 Speaker 4: BI don't just have your whether you're on the smartphone 836 00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:41,080 Speaker 4: or if you're on the ankle monitor. They don't just 837 00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:44,880 Speaker 4: have your last GPS ping. They have your historical movements, 838 00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:46,840 Speaker 4: which means if you're on an ankle monitor, they have 839 00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:49,200 Speaker 4: a record of every single place you went for the 840 00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:51,560 Speaker 4: entirety of the time since you've been on an ankle monitor, 841 00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:54,520 Speaker 4: and they also know where you are right now a 842 00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:57,879 Speaker 4: little more limited on a smartphone, but that's information that's 843 00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:02,680 Speaker 4: highly sensitive. You're location and especially your historical location information 844 00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:05,399 Speaker 4: and tell you all kinds of things like what church 845 00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:07,880 Speaker 4: this person goes to, have they been to Planned parenthood 846 00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:08,440 Speaker 4: or recently? 847 00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:10,200 Speaker 3: Who do they associate with? 848 00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:12,839 Speaker 4: Like what houses are they visited, and for ICE, that 849 00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:18,240 Speaker 4: information is very valuable because most migrants don't live alone. 850 00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:20,640 Speaker 4: They live in community with other people. Some of those 851 00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:24,480 Speaker 4: people may be undocumented. And so as a migrant, you 852 00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:27,880 Speaker 4: are now worrying every time you check in. Am I 853 00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:34,120 Speaker 4: exposing someone who's undocumented to ICE surveillance? Am I exposing myself, 854 00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:38,720 Speaker 4: you know, to just like tagging somewhere that ICE doesn't 855 00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:40,640 Speaker 4: want me to be and maybe an officer is going 856 00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:42,520 Speaker 4: to show up for a check Because of that, it 857 00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:45,719 Speaker 4: is creating a ton of insecurity and a system that 858 00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:50,319 Speaker 4: is already very insecure, and the like psychological harms of 859 00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:54,600 Speaker 4: that are manifest. You know, there's good studies like internationally 860 00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:59,759 Speaker 4: that your risk of suicide and depression goes way up 861 00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:04,919 Speaker 4: you're on electronic monitoring, that your access to jobs goes 862 00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:09,160 Speaker 4: wait out. You you know, there's stigma with wearing an 863 00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:14,000 Speaker 4: ankle brace also concerns that if you take a job 864 00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:16,560 Speaker 4: you won't be able to check in at your home 865 00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:20,120 Speaker 4: at the appropriate time. It looks like you're absconding, right, 866 00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:24,440 Speaker 4: So this level of monitoring is messing with people's lives 867 00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:27,040 Speaker 4: and really fundamental and deeply cruel ways. 868 00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:31,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, and these like like you talked about sort 869 00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:33,360 Speaker 2: of how how your phone can make you a snitch. Like, 870 00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:37,160 Speaker 2: mixed status families are very common, right, and it's fifty 871 00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:40,320 Speaker 2: in migrant diaspora is so like it could be someone 872 00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:42,799 Speaker 2: in your family who have a different immigration status from you, 873 00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:45,200 Speaker 2: and to do what you need to do, you might 874 00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:47,640 Speaker 2: be putting that person at risks. And it's a very 875 00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:52,239 Speaker 2: scary thing to have that that tag on you at 876 00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:54,359 Speaker 2: all times. And like you said, it's not just where 877 00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:57,080 Speaker 2: you where you are, but where you've been and ice 878 00:50:57,640 --> 00:51:01,399 Speaker 2: if I'm right, like they they they keep that data, right, 879 00:51:01,480 --> 00:51:06,160 Speaker 2: That data isn't anonymized or sort of like destroyed. They 880 00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:07,640 Speaker 2: can keep that data forever if they want to. 881 00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:11,440 Speaker 3: Yes, it's inputed into their systems. 882 00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:15,759 Speaker 4: And that hangs around for I think the retention period 883 00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:18,919 Speaker 4: of seventy five years. Okay, yeah, great, depends a little bit. 884 00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:23,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. This technology that goes into these right, that's facial recognition. 885 00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:26,839 Speaker 2: I know they also have a number plate license plate 886 00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:29,839 Speaker 2: in America recognition. They have. 887 00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:31,319 Speaker 3: That. 888 00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:34,000 Speaker 2: I'm trying to think which are other technologies they have, 889 00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:37,880 Speaker 2: cell phone site simulation. A lot of that can also 890 00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:41,840 Speaker 2: be transferred to local police agencies right through some of 891 00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:44,640 Speaker 2: these like, they're not tech transfer programs, that's the wrong word. 892 00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:48,520 Speaker 2: But some of these grants and programs that ICE and 893 00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:53,440 Speaker 2: DHS more broadly has. Does that mean that local police 894 00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:56,400 Speaker 2: agencies could also have access to some of this data? 895 00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:59,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, So I think there's two different types of programs 896 00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:03,400 Speaker 4: and it's worth breaking them apart. There are grant programs 897 00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:08,200 Speaker 4: that are providing state and local police with the technology itself. Right, 898 00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:10,480 Speaker 4: that's like money to buy a license plate reader and 899 00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:14,720 Speaker 4: pop it out in your community. There are is also 900 00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:19,440 Speaker 4: the overlap between beteral and special Department of Homeland Security 901 00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:24,279 Speaker 4: ices databases the systems that they house all of this 902 00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:27,719 Speaker 4: information in, and state and local police they have their 903 00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:32,319 Speaker 4: own databases. Those databases are very often linked or accessible, 904 00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:37,080 Speaker 4: which means that monitoring. You know, your local police department 905 00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:40,640 Speaker 4: has a log of everyone and they arrest very often 906 00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:43,200 Speaker 4: that log is sent to ICE and vice versa. 907 00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:43,919 Speaker 3: Right. 908 00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:48,480 Speaker 4: So it's one of the main ways that this has 909 00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:52,320 Speaker 4: done is through fusion centers, which is basically a federally 910 00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:55,879 Speaker 4: funded state run technology center embedded in state or local 911 00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:59,240 Speaker 4: police departments where you have the Department of Homeland Security 912 00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:03,040 Speaker 4: agents who have access to their set of databases and 913 00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:06,000 Speaker 4: state and local police department officers who have access to 914 00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:08,239 Speaker 4: their set of databases sitting right next to each other, 915 00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:10,759 Speaker 4: and those people can then talk and be like, yo, 916 00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:12,760 Speaker 4: I need you to run this search into your system, 917 00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:16,359 Speaker 4: which is theoretically only for federal use, but suddenly it's 918 00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:19,839 Speaker 4: getting used for state law enforcement and vice versa. One 919 00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:22,680 Speaker 4: of the biggest problems with this is that cities that 920 00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:26,640 Speaker 4: want to be sanctuary cities that don't want their police 921 00:53:26,640 --> 00:53:30,440 Speaker 4: departments reporting and handing people over to ICE when they 922 00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:34,960 Speaker 4: arrest undocumented folks, city government is unable to control their 923 00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:37,640 Speaker 4: local police departments and the information that is sent to ICE. 924 00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:41,160 Speaker 4: So even a sensible sanctuary cities where the city says 925 00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:45,040 Speaker 4: we're not going to report this information, the way that 926 00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:48,839 Speaker 4: these databases are tied together, especially license plate reader databases, 927 00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:52,640 Speaker 4: but as well as arrest databases, all sorts of stuff 928 00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:57,600 Speaker 4: means that the city government functionally cannot create a sanctuary city. 929 00:53:57,719 --> 00:54:01,720 Speaker 2: Right which, just in if we talk about my situation, 930 00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:06,600 Speaker 2: I'm in San Diego, are mayor is terrible and want 931 00:54:06,719 --> 00:54:09,640 Speaker 2: to turn all our street lights into spies? Right like, 932 00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:12,080 Speaker 2: put put little put little cameras on them so that 933 00:54:12,120 --> 00:54:15,440 Speaker 2: they can watch what we're doing, and like this information 934 00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:18,680 Speaker 2: feeds into we know exactly where the future center is actually, 935 00:54:18,719 --> 00:54:20,880 Speaker 2: Like I wrote about this in twenty twenty when the 936 00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:23,200 Speaker 2: cops took someone's phone and used gray key to crack 937 00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:26,880 Speaker 2: it open. So like the Yeah, the exposure for people 938 00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:29,920 Speaker 2: who in the US who are not citizens of the 939 00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:34,560 Speaker 2: US is very high with these things. The last thing 940 00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:37,759 Speaker 2: about these databases I wanted to talk about was those 941 00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:41,279 Speaker 2: aren't the only databases that ICE has access to, right, 942 00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:44,560 Speaker 2: can you explain how they've they've managed to acquire some 943 00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:47,480 Speaker 2: data about other people and whether or not that is 944 00:54:47,719 --> 00:54:48,880 Speaker 2: strictly speaking legal. 945 00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:53,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, So we have a massive problem in America with 946 00:54:53,160 --> 00:54:57,319 Speaker 4: data broker in which is yes, companies the biggest, the 947 00:54:57,360 --> 00:55:00,839 Speaker 4: worst are Lexus and Nexus and Tops and Writers West Law. 948 00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:05,080 Speaker 4: But there are hundreds and hundreds of data brokers who 949 00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:09,080 Speaker 4: vacuum up all of the information that they can off 950 00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:13,840 Speaker 4: the Internet, off of utility records, off of publicly available information, 951 00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:19,120 Speaker 4: and basically make massive databases that are tracking to the 952 00:55:19,120 --> 00:55:21,240 Speaker 4: best that they can at every aspect of people's lives. 953 00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:24,239 Speaker 4: Credit reporting agencies, the people who like give you your 954 00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:27,839 Speaker 4: credit score, are also data brokers. They're pulling in all 955 00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:31,600 Speaker 4: this information so that they can assign you your credit 956 00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:33,640 Speaker 4: which is like where your credit cards are, how much 957 00:55:33,640 --> 00:55:36,719 Speaker 4: money you have. All this information is super valuable, right, 958 00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:43,640 Speaker 4: and it's valuable to advertisers. It's valuable, yeah, like for marketing, 959 00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:48,560 Speaker 4: but it's also really valuable for law enforcement because you 960 00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:53,960 Speaker 4: have everything from like addresses where people are spending money. 961 00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:57,160 Speaker 4: Often you can pull from advertising like phone advertising data, 962 00:55:57,200 --> 00:56:02,239 Speaker 4: people's GPS location, and a number of these services have 963 00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:08,040 Speaker 4: sold access to ICE, both like Thompson, Ridge Is Clear 964 00:56:08,280 --> 00:56:13,040 Speaker 4: Lexis Nexus has several products that they sell to ICE, 965 00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:16,080 Speaker 4: as well as locate x which is now Babble Street, 966 00:56:16,400 --> 00:56:22,440 Speaker 4: which is specifically a GPS location company. And ICE has 967 00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:27,040 Speaker 4: basically managed to obtain through contracts information that they could 968 00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:31,040 Speaker 4: not legally obtain through a warrant, right, which is to 969 00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:35,080 Speaker 4: say that if you a police officer and ICE officer 970 00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:38,400 Speaker 4: want to get information on a single person, you know 971 00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:41,799 Speaker 4: you want their GPS location off their phone, you need 972 00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:45,360 Speaker 4: to go to a court and say, hey, I'm looking 973 00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:47,799 Speaker 4: for James Stout and I think that he committed a 974 00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:51,560 Speaker 4: crime or an immigration he brook immigration law. Here's my evidence. 975 00:56:51,640 --> 00:56:55,279 Speaker 4: I need a warrant. You cannot get a warrant for 976 00:56:55,520 --> 00:56:59,320 Speaker 4: mass monitoring. That's like a fundamental part of how the 977 00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:01,920 Speaker 4: Fourth Amendment US Constitution works is that it has to 978 00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:07,359 Speaker 4: be individualized or very close to individualized. But there is 979 00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:12,000 Speaker 4: currently no law that says that ICE can't just go 980 00:57:12,040 --> 00:57:14,920 Speaker 4: buy the information on the open market and completely evade 981 00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:18,400 Speaker 4: the warrant requirement. So that's what's going on with Lexus 982 00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:22,280 Speaker 4: and Nexus, with locate Acts as well as some social 983 00:57:22,360 --> 00:57:23,640 Speaker 4: media surveillance companies. 984 00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:26,600 Speaker 2: Right, yeah, are the same database is that I as 985 00:57:26,640 --> 00:57:30,560 Speaker 2: a journalist use when I'm you know, wondering if this 986 00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:33,800 Speaker 2: Nazi is still living in this place, or you know, 987 00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:37,040 Speaker 2: finding the sense of Confederate veterans to check if they 988 00:57:37,120 --> 00:57:40,960 Speaker 2: still work at the Citadel University. So I think a 989 00:57:40,960 --> 00:57:42,600 Speaker 2: good way to finish this up will be to talk 990 00:57:42,640 --> 00:57:46,600 Speaker 2: about once you're in, you've gone through this process, right, 991 00:57:46,680 --> 00:57:50,800 Speaker 2: you've CVP one, you've at d'd, and you enter into 992 00:57:50,960 --> 00:57:54,760 Speaker 2: sort of the asylum hearing or you have your your 993 00:57:54,800 --> 00:57:58,760 Speaker 2: various different asylum processes. Can Austin, can you give us 994 00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:03,080 Speaker 2: a very broad overview of like the likelihood of success 995 00:58:03,240 --> 00:58:05,520 Speaker 2: and maybe a couple of I know you're very good 996 00:58:05,560 --> 00:58:09,320 Speaker 2: at monitoring the factors that determine the likelihood of success 997 00:58:09,320 --> 00:58:12,320 Speaker 2: in an asylum application through TRACK. This is a great 998 00:58:12,320 --> 00:58:15,880 Speaker 2: place to plug track if you want to. Can you 999 00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:19,680 Speaker 2: talk about like how likely folks are to be successful 1000 00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:21,360 Speaker 2: in that asylum application process? 1001 00:58:22,120 --> 00:58:26,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, So we monitor this federal data related to immigration 1002 00:58:26,680 --> 00:58:31,040 Speaker 3: other areas through TRACK Transactional Records Access Clearinghouse at Syracuse 1003 00:58:31,120 --> 00:58:32,440 Speaker 3: University where I'm at. 1004 00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:34,880 Speaker 5: I'm also a research fellow at American University. 1005 00:58:34,920 --> 00:58:36,640 Speaker 3: So we have a kind of a fun partnership right 1006 00:58:36,640 --> 00:58:42,880 Speaker 3: now looking at different angles of connecting data to research 1007 00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:47,640 Speaker 3: on Latin American Latino migrants. And so we keep really 1008 00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:50,520 Speaker 3: close track of what's happening with the immigration courts. We 1009 00:58:50,600 --> 00:58:54,200 Speaker 3: don't get data. Remember earlier I described as two tracks 1010 00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:58,120 Speaker 3: of seeking asylum. We don't currently get data on that 1011 00:58:58,600 --> 00:59:02,320 Speaker 3: first track where people go through asylum. Officers at USCIS 1012 00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:07,600 Speaker 3: were interested in it, but they actually publish not comprehensive, 1013 00:59:07,640 --> 00:59:11,480 Speaker 3: but they published decent amount of data. We would certainly 1014 00:59:11,480 --> 00:59:13,920 Speaker 3: like to get more, but it's the immigration courts that 1015 00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:16,600 Speaker 3: we have focused very heavily on for the last decade, 1016 00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:19,160 Speaker 3: I would say. And so we get very detailed, granular 1017 00:59:19,240 --> 00:59:21,560 Speaker 3: data from the immigration courts on a monthly basis that 1018 00:59:21,600 --> 00:59:24,960 Speaker 3: allows us to see exactly what's happening. I would say 1019 00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:29,360 Speaker 3: currently the success rate denial rate, however you want to 1020 00:59:29,400 --> 00:59:32,920 Speaker 3: put it in immigration court for asylum seekers is about 1021 00:59:33,040 --> 00:59:37,000 Speaker 3: fifty two or fifty three percent get denied, about forty 1022 00:59:37,040 --> 00:59:42,000 Speaker 3: seven to forty eight percent are granted asylum, but that 1023 00:59:42,120 --> 00:59:47,480 Speaker 3: varies widely by immigration court and by nationality. So migrants 1024 00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:51,000 Speaker 3: from Central America, El Salvadorjundara, Squatemala tend to have much 1025 00:59:51,040 --> 00:59:55,280 Speaker 3: higher denial rates seventy eighty percent, ninety percent, where as 1026 00:59:55,760 --> 01:00:04,200 Speaker 3: nationals from let's say Ukraine, China, some other countries, Cuba 1027 01:00:04,480 --> 01:00:07,200 Speaker 3: have very high success rates. Haiti actually is a good 1028 01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:09,720 Speaker 3: example of a country that has very low grant rates, 1029 01:00:09,800 --> 01:00:15,080 Speaker 3: very high denial rates, even though much like northern Mexico, 1030 01:00:15,480 --> 01:00:18,120 Speaker 3: where we actually send people that we deport very often, 1031 01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:20,160 Speaker 3: there are all kinds of travel warnings. 1032 01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:22,360 Speaker 5: You know, the United States government does not. 1033 01:00:22,320 --> 01:00:24,320 Speaker 3: Want people going to Haiti because it's too dangerous, but 1034 01:00:24,320 --> 01:00:27,040 Speaker 3: we don't even have a problem deporting people back there 1035 01:00:27,040 --> 01:00:30,400 Speaker 3: who are seeking asylum, right and so that's what we've 1036 01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:32,640 Speaker 3: seen in recent years. The denial rate was as high 1037 01:00:32,680 --> 01:00:36,800 Speaker 3: as seventy percent during the Trump administration, and so it's 1038 01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:39,600 Speaker 3: certainly much better under the Biden administration. I do want 1039 01:00:39,640 --> 01:00:44,080 Speaker 3: to say though, that in addition to sort of policy 1040 01:00:44,600 --> 01:00:51,080 Speaker 3: related issues that may drive this factor, geographic concerns, people 1041 01:00:51,120 --> 01:00:53,720 Speaker 3: are much more successful in New York City than say 1042 01:00:53,840 --> 01:00:56,040 Speaker 3: Houston or Atlanta, Georgia. 1043 01:00:57,360 --> 01:00:59,240 Speaker 5: But one of the really. 1044 01:00:59,040 --> 01:01:01,680 Speaker 3: Important factors here is, in addition to all of that, 1045 01:01:02,720 --> 01:01:06,160 Speaker 3: there's a threshold question, which is a lot of people, 1046 01:01:06,320 --> 01:01:08,520 Speaker 3: including a lot of people who are recently arriving to 1047 01:01:08,560 --> 01:01:13,040 Speaker 3: the United States, if they can't get an attorney, it's 1048 01:01:13,200 --> 01:01:16,000 Speaker 3: very unlikely that they will even be able to file 1049 01:01:16,080 --> 01:01:18,760 Speaker 3: in the sylum application in the first place. So that's 1050 01:01:18,760 --> 01:01:22,000 Speaker 3: fifty you know, that forty eight percent rant rate is 1051 01:01:22,000 --> 01:01:26,400 Speaker 3: for people who file in the sylum application. We're not seeing, 1052 01:01:27,240 --> 01:01:29,560 Speaker 3: you know, the people who don't even who aren't even 1053 01:01:29,640 --> 01:01:32,080 Speaker 3: able to file in the silum application in the first place. 1054 01:01:32,320 --> 01:01:36,160 Speaker 3: And one of the most concerning things recent developments is 1055 01:01:36,200 --> 01:01:40,280 Speaker 3: that the Biden administration, I think not for no reason 1056 01:01:40,320 --> 01:01:42,440 Speaker 3: at all. I mean, there's two point two million pending 1057 01:01:42,440 --> 01:01:45,400 Speaker 3: cases in the immigration course right now. The Biden administration 1058 01:01:45,520 --> 01:01:48,560 Speaker 3: is trying to push cases too faster. This is something 1059 01:01:48,640 --> 01:01:52,439 Speaker 3: the Obama Innistry administration tried Trump administration tried it, Biden 1060 01:01:52,480 --> 01:01:55,680 Speaker 3: administration tried it, and every single time the cases get accelerated, 1061 01:01:56,760 --> 01:02:00,360 Speaker 3: including a large number of family cases. Unfortunately, they simply 1062 01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:03,560 Speaker 3: don't have time to get an attorney and file a 1063 01:02:03,600 --> 01:02:07,000 Speaker 3: good stylent application. So what we're seeing as an addition 1064 01:02:07,120 --> 01:02:10,840 Speaker 3: to like geography, nationality, does someone get an attorney. It's 1065 01:02:10,840 --> 01:02:14,200 Speaker 3: also speed, just how fast the cases go through. And 1066 01:02:14,240 --> 01:02:17,640 Speaker 3: the reality is if you try to force an asylum 1067 01:02:17,720 --> 01:02:21,680 Speaker 3: case through the immigration courts or frankly even through USAIS 1068 01:02:21,720 --> 01:02:25,200 Speaker 3: in a matter of weeks, people are just not going 1069 01:02:25,280 --> 01:02:29,160 Speaker 3: to win. You can't speed things up and maintain a 1070 01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:29,800 Speaker 3: fair system. 1071 01:02:29,880 --> 01:02:30,480 Speaker 5: You just can't. 1072 01:02:30,640 --> 01:02:34,520 Speaker 3: It's also not great for people to wait, you know, five, six, seven, 1073 01:02:34,560 --> 01:02:36,760 Speaker 3: eight years for a hearing or for a conclusion. 1074 01:02:36,880 --> 01:02:38,160 Speaker 5: So that's not ideal either. 1075 01:02:38,680 --> 01:02:41,760 Speaker 3: But you know, trying to force cases through and you 1076 01:02:41,800 --> 01:02:44,640 Speaker 3: know two or three months is just doesn't work. 1077 01:02:45,040 --> 01:02:47,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, I've spoken to Peeve. I spoke to a friend 1078 01:02:47,320 --> 01:02:49,800 Speaker 2: a couple of weeks ago who was saying that now 1079 01:02:49,840 --> 01:02:52,240 Speaker 2: he's seeing people newly. Right, he's been in the United 1080 01:02:52,320 --> 01:02:55,040 Speaker 2: States for a few years. I've gone through the process, 1081 01:02:55,080 --> 01:02:57,280 Speaker 2: but he's seeing people come in and the amount to 1082 01:02:57,320 --> 01:02:58,760 Speaker 2: pay for a lawyer if they want to get a 1083 01:02:58,760 --> 01:03:02,560 Speaker 2: private lawyer is going up, and like if people only 1084 01:03:02,600 --> 01:03:04,560 Speaker 2: have a few months or don't have the right to work, 1085 01:03:04,600 --> 01:03:08,800 Speaker 2: there's just no way for them to obtain that much money. 1086 01:03:09,160 --> 01:03:11,840 Speaker 2: And then the people who are doing it sort of 1087 01:03:12,360 --> 01:03:15,880 Speaker 2: I guess sort of in for nonprofits are just overwhelmed 1088 01:03:16,520 --> 01:03:19,760 Speaker 2: by the amount of demand. So yeah, those people are 1089 01:03:19,760 --> 01:03:20,920 Speaker 2: in a really tough situation. 1090 01:03:21,880 --> 01:03:23,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think we should talk a little bit about 1091 01:03:23,680 --> 01:03:26,640 Speaker 4: the fundamental unfairness of this system. 1092 01:03:26,960 --> 01:03:27,200 Speaker 3: Yep. 1093 01:03:27,960 --> 01:03:32,560 Speaker 4: So, like immigration judges are administrative law judges. They are 1094 01:03:33,160 --> 01:03:38,080 Speaker 4: not like real judges approved by Congress. They are hired 1095 01:03:38,080 --> 01:03:41,720 Speaker 4: by an administrative agency, which effectively means that there are 1096 01:03:41,920 --> 01:03:46,800 Speaker 4: much lower bars to who can be an administrative law judge. 1097 01:03:46,960 --> 01:03:49,720 Speaker 4: You also, as an immigrant, do not have a right 1098 01:03:49,760 --> 01:03:52,840 Speaker 4: to an attorney sitting in front of an administrative law judge. 1099 01:03:53,160 --> 01:03:55,439 Speaker 4: And one of the things that the data throws out 1100 01:03:55,560 --> 01:03:59,200 Speaker 4: is that in every aspect of the system, having an 1101 01:03:59,240 --> 01:04:03,520 Speaker 4: attorney is the strongest indicator of a good result. So 1102 01:04:04,040 --> 01:04:07,240 Speaker 4: that's like how likely peopot people are to know about 1103 01:04:07,280 --> 01:04:11,400 Speaker 4: their appointments. It's actually extremely hard if you are someone 1104 01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:15,720 Speaker 4: who does not speak English and has limited money and 1105 01:04:15,880 --> 01:04:19,920 Speaker 4: limited access to the system. And frankly does not understand 1106 01:04:20,200 --> 01:04:24,040 Speaker 4: how the American immigration law system works, which is reasonable 1107 01:04:24,120 --> 01:04:28,640 Speaker 4: because virtually no one understands how it works. It's really 1108 01:04:28,720 --> 01:04:30,760 Speaker 4: difficult to know, Like when you have a court take 1109 01:04:31,160 --> 01:04:33,919 Speaker 4: much less to show up and to understand what kind 1110 01:04:33,960 --> 01:04:37,000 Speaker 4: of information that you need to collect and present to 1111 01:04:37,040 --> 01:04:40,360 Speaker 4: a judge that will be convincing to this person, who 1112 01:04:40,400 --> 01:04:43,120 Speaker 4: again is not an Article three judge that's been appointed 1113 01:04:43,160 --> 01:04:45,520 Speaker 4: by Congress, not the type of judges that you or 1114 01:04:45,560 --> 01:04:48,439 Speaker 4: I would have our cases heard by if we were 1115 01:04:48,640 --> 01:04:53,760 Speaker 4: arrested or if we just like file the lawsuit. And 1116 01:04:53,880 --> 01:04:56,680 Speaker 4: so access to a judge is like the number one 1117 01:04:56,760 --> 01:04:59,880 Speaker 4: best indicator for whether your asylum claim is going to 1118 01:04:59,880 --> 01:05:02,320 Speaker 4: be be successful or not, or any kind of claim 1119 01:05:02,320 --> 01:05:05,880 Speaker 4: and the immigration system, frankly, and we do not provide 1120 01:05:05,920 --> 01:05:08,120 Speaker 4: that to people who don't have the money to hire 1121 01:05:08,120 --> 01:05:08,880 Speaker 4: a lawyer. 1122 01:05:09,040 --> 01:05:11,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, which is fundamentally unjust right. 1123 01:05:12,680 --> 01:05:15,080 Speaker 4: We also there's like not a guarantee that you will 1124 01:05:15,080 --> 01:05:18,440 Speaker 4: have a quality translator. Yes see, you will be able 1125 01:05:18,440 --> 01:05:20,840 Speaker 4: to show up to court and at all understand what 1126 01:05:21,000 --> 01:05:25,000 Speaker 4: is happening in your legal case, which is a huge 1127 01:05:25,040 --> 01:05:27,600 Speaker 4: barrier to be able to get a good results to 1128 01:05:27,600 --> 01:05:31,160 Speaker 4: be able to communicate who you are and why you 1129 01:05:32,080 --> 01:05:34,680 Speaker 4: will not be safe if you are deported from the country. 1130 01:05:34,480 --> 01:05:37,800 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, we heard that in May where they were 1131 01:05:37,880 --> 01:05:40,480 Speaker 2: like they were basically asking if anyone could come and 1132 01:05:40,520 --> 01:05:44,440 Speaker 2: help trans migrant advocacy groups. You know, does someone speak Comanagi, 1133 01:05:44,560 --> 01:05:48,880 Speaker 2: does someone speak Turkish? You know, just does someone speak Vietnamese? 1134 01:05:49,280 --> 01:05:50,800 Speaker 2: Could they come down and help this person with their 1135 01:05:50,840 --> 01:05:55,360 Speaker 2: initial interview? Which it's just not a not a just 1136 01:05:55,560 --> 01:05:58,680 Speaker 2: or refrom reasonable way to do these things. But yes, 1137 01:05:59,000 --> 01:06:01,120 Speaker 2: that's where it's out right now. I guess I think 1138 01:06:01,120 --> 01:06:03,520 Speaker 2: most people probably aren't aware of much of that, so 1139 01:06:03,560 --> 01:06:06,320 Speaker 2: it's good to explain how fundamentally and jest it is. 1140 01:06:07,120 --> 01:06:10,080 Speaker 2: So if people want to learn more about this, if 1141 01:06:10,120 --> 01:06:11,880 Speaker 2: people want to follow along, I know you both do 1142 01:06:12,000 --> 01:06:14,800 Speaker 2: some writing online. Where can they find you and where 1143 01:06:14,800 --> 01:06:16,480 Speaker 2: can they find more of your writing about this? 1144 01:06:17,520 --> 01:06:18,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, so you. 1145 01:06:18,760 --> 01:06:22,160 Speaker 4: Can find my writing on the Electronic Privacy Information Center 1146 01:06:22,200 --> 01:06:25,000 Speaker 4: EPICS website that is EPIC dot org. You can find 1147 01:06:25,040 --> 01:06:28,240 Speaker 4: me and my one hundred and fifty followers on Twitter 1148 01:06:28,320 --> 01:06:31,760 Speaker 4: at at real Jake Wiener that's w I E n 1149 01:06:31,800 --> 01:06:37,320 Speaker 4: e R. And hopefully in the near future you'll be 1150 01:06:37,320 --> 01:06:38,880 Speaker 4: able to find some scholarship for me as well. 1151 01:06:39,360 --> 01:06:42,360 Speaker 2: Oh cool, Yeah, using the Donald Trump Twitter format. Great. 1152 01:06:44,280 --> 01:06:46,640 Speaker 2: How about you, Austin, where can people find you? You 1153 01:06:46,680 --> 01:06:48,680 Speaker 2: have many more followers on Twitter dot com. 1154 01:06:49,520 --> 01:06:53,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's Austin Cooper. Last name is koc h 1155 01:06:53,640 --> 01:06:56,600 Speaker 3: e er. Peculiarity of that name is in my favorite 1156 01:06:56,600 --> 01:07:00,320 Speaker 3: because you know, pretty easy to search. But actually this 1157 01:07:00,360 --> 01:07:02,960 Speaker 3: is great timing. I just had an article published this week, 1158 01:07:03,400 --> 01:07:06,560 Speaker 3: detailed one on CBP one. It's called Glitches and the 1159 01:07:06,600 --> 01:07:11,000 Speaker 3: Digitization of Asylum. It's an academic article, but it is 1160 01:07:11,200 --> 01:07:14,440 Speaker 3: open access, so there's no paywall there. Glitches and the 1161 01:07:14,480 --> 01:07:17,200 Speaker 3: Digitization of Asylum. It's also up on my Twitter page. 1162 01:07:17,480 --> 01:07:20,960 Speaker 3: I'm on Twitter at ac Coker, so a c k 1163 01:07:21,080 --> 01:07:23,640 Speaker 3: O c h e R. And I also write pretty 1164 01:07:23,680 --> 01:07:27,480 Speaker 3: regularly on substack, and that's like a weird thing to say. 1165 01:07:27,520 --> 01:07:30,320 Speaker 3: I'm slightly embarrassed to mention it, except that I'm not 1166 01:07:30,680 --> 01:07:35,360 Speaker 3: because this academic article emerged actually out of stuff that 1167 01:07:35,400 --> 01:07:39,240 Speaker 3: I was initially exploring on substack. So I really loved 1168 01:07:39,360 --> 01:07:42,280 Speaker 3: that format for writing because it's given me a chance 1169 01:07:42,320 --> 01:07:45,960 Speaker 3: to work out concepts and ideas before they even go 1170 01:07:46,160 --> 01:07:49,200 Speaker 3: into like pure ifew print. So if people want to 1171 01:07:49,200 --> 01:07:51,320 Speaker 3: get ahead of the curve on what I'm thinking, go 1172 01:07:51,400 --> 01:07:53,920 Speaker 3: check that out too. Nice and don't forget to visit 1173 01:07:54,040 --> 01:07:58,240 Speaker 3: track t R A C dot, s y R dot 1174 01:07:58,400 --> 01:08:01,760 Speaker 3: ed U to get all kinds of data on immigration courts, 1175 01:08:02,120 --> 01:08:05,200 Speaker 3: alternatives to detention, detention statistics and so forth. 1176 01:08:05,440 --> 01:08:07,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, I like try this Telegram channel as well. Right, 1177 01:08:07,640 --> 01:08:10,160 Speaker 2: it's like the only time I can go on Telegram, 1178 01:08:10,160 --> 01:08:12,800 Speaker 2: I don't see dead people, So I appreciate it for that. 1179 01:08:12,800 --> 01:08:15,640 Speaker 3: That's right. We put stuff out on Telegram and WhatsApp too, 1180 01:08:16,280 --> 01:08:18,400 Speaker 3: So if you don't want to have to be on Twitter, 1181 01:08:18,560 --> 01:08:20,280 Speaker 3: if you don't want to have to get an email 1182 01:08:20,360 --> 01:08:22,640 Speaker 3: on something like that, you just want to get a 1183 01:08:22,680 --> 01:08:25,440 Speaker 3: little if you like some of those other messaging platforms. 1184 01:08:25,439 --> 01:08:29,160 Speaker 3: We have announcement threads on there. You can't interact, you 1185 01:08:29,280 --> 01:08:32,000 Speaker 3: just you just get the little notification. But we try 1186 01:08:32,040 --> 01:08:35,040 Speaker 3: that we try to diversify as much as possible, especially 1187 01:08:35,040 --> 01:08:37,479 Speaker 3: with the muscification of Twitter. 1188 01:08:37,960 --> 01:08:40,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think that's pretty a good move. Thank 1189 01:08:40,120 --> 01:08:41,560 Speaker 2: you very much for your time both to you. I 1190 01:08:41,640 --> 01:09:00,519 Speaker 2: really appreciate it. That was very insightful. Thank you, James. Hello, 1191 01:09:01,160 --> 01:09:04,720 Speaker 2: welcome to the podcast. It could happen here. It's me 1192 01:09:05,120 --> 01:09:10,280 Speaker 2: James and Scharene today. Hi Serene, Hi James, Hi Sarene. Yeah, 1193 01:09:10,320 --> 01:09:13,879 Speaker 2: it's it's lovely to have you. Thanks for introducing yourself. 1194 01:09:14,960 --> 01:09:17,200 Speaker 2: A little confused, but he always talking to you. 1195 01:09:18,280 --> 01:09:20,559 Speaker 6: I've done podcasts for a long time and I never 1196 01:09:20,640 --> 01:09:23,080 Speaker 6: actually know how to introduce myself. But I'm really happy 1197 01:09:23,080 --> 01:09:25,200 Speaker 6: to be doing this episode with you because you're a 1198 01:09:25,280 --> 01:09:26,879 Speaker 6: very good episode partner. 1199 01:09:27,479 --> 01:09:29,360 Speaker 2: Thank you, Sreen. I am also happy to beating this 1200 01:09:29,360 --> 01:09:31,360 Speaker 2: episode with you. I think you're an excellent episode partner. 1201 01:09:31,680 --> 01:09:33,599 Speaker 6: What are we talking about that just because I said it? 1202 01:09:33,920 --> 01:09:37,720 Speaker 2: No, I like him. It's good, it's good. Do we 1203 01:09:38,120 --> 01:09:39,200 Speaker 2: help people learn things? 1204 01:09:40,840 --> 01:09:44,400 Speaker 6: Well, today you're going to learn some more things about Palestine. 1205 01:09:44,520 --> 01:09:46,599 Speaker 6: It's been a minute since we had an update, and 1206 01:09:47,040 --> 01:09:50,760 Speaker 6: I mean, surprise, surprise, things aren't good. So we're going 1207 01:09:50,800 --> 01:09:53,880 Speaker 6: to talk about some recent stuff that's been happening. There's 1208 01:09:54,400 --> 01:09:57,360 Speaker 6: we mentioned some stuff that we've mentioned before in other episodes, 1209 01:09:57,400 --> 01:10:01,040 Speaker 6: like the Nekaba or just the ethnic cleansing that happened 1210 01:10:01,040 --> 01:10:04,840 Speaker 6: in nineteen forty eight. Also some politics stuff. So if 1211 01:10:04,880 --> 01:10:07,200 Speaker 6: you are interested in getting more detail and you haven't 1212 01:10:07,240 --> 01:10:09,720 Speaker 6: listened to those, I would recommend listening to those just 1213 01:10:09,760 --> 01:10:11,519 Speaker 6: for more context if you desire. 1214 01:10:12,280 --> 01:10:14,720 Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, I think you're diving in probably at 1215 01:10:14,760 --> 01:10:17,160 Speaker 2: the deep end if if you start here. But we're 1216 01:10:17,200 --> 01:10:19,799 Speaker 2: going to dive in at the deep end. So earlier 1217 01:10:19,840 --> 01:10:23,080 Speaker 2: this month, Omar Katten twenty seven, a father of two 1218 01:10:23,160 --> 01:10:26,240 Speaker 2: children who worked as an electrician for the local municipality, 1219 01:10:26,600 --> 01:10:29,800 Speaker 2: was killed when about four hundred Israeli settlers marched down 1220 01:10:30,320 --> 01:10:34,320 Speaker 2: thaumas Aya's main road, selling cars, homes, crops and trees 1221 01:10:34,360 --> 01:10:37,200 Speaker 2: ablaze as they went. It's not clear if you're shot 1222 01:10:37,240 --> 01:10:40,679 Speaker 2: by IDF troops or settlers of both stormed the village 1223 01:10:40,720 --> 01:10:46,200 Speaker 2: carrying weapons. Under international law, Israeli settlement to illegal, however, 1224 01:10:46,320 --> 01:10:48,759 Speaker 2: it's really Prime Minister of Benjamin net and Yahoo announced 1225 01:10:48,760 --> 01:10:50,840 Speaker 2: plans to build a thousand new housing units in the 1226 01:10:50,880 --> 01:10:53,640 Speaker 2: settlement of Eli in response to the deadly shooting of 1227 01:10:53,680 --> 01:10:56,960 Speaker 2: for Israelis by two Palestinian gunmen on Tuesday, the twentieth 1228 01:10:57,040 --> 01:11:00,800 Speaker 2: of June. The suspected assailants were late killed. One of 1229 01:11:00,840 --> 01:11:04,760 Speaker 2: them was quote unquote neutralized by civilian the other by 1230 01:11:04,800 --> 01:11:08,040 Speaker 2: the IDEF. But it appears the plan is to place 1231 01:11:08,080 --> 01:11:11,080 Speaker 2: the whole nation again. Our auntwer to terror is, to 1232 01:11:11,080 --> 01:11:13,320 Speaker 2: strike it hard and to build our country. Net Yeah, 1233 01:11:13,320 --> 01:11:16,599 Speaker 2: who said his right wing government is dominated by settler 1234 01:11:16,680 --> 01:11:19,559 Speaker 2: leaders and supporters. But his statements came just days after 1235 01:11:19,600 --> 01:11:22,280 Speaker 2: the government gave far right finance minister there's a little 1236 01:11:22,280 --> 01:11:25,960 Speaker 2: smotorridge sweeping powers to exploit the construction of legal settlements 1237 01:11:26,200 --> 01:11:28,439 Speaker 2: by passing masses that have been in place for almost 1238 01:11:28,479 --> 01:11:32,200 Speaker 2: twenty seven years. The violence in thaumas ayah Am I 1239 01:11:32,280 --> 01:11:33,160 Speaker 2: saying that, right. 1240 01:11:33,320 --> 01:11:37,599 Speaker 6: I just looked it up. Yeah, totumos Aya is it's 1241 01:11:37,640 --> 01:11:40,120 Speaker 6: a town in the West Bank for context people that 1242 01:11:40,200 --> 01:11:44,639 Speaker 6: don't know, so, yeah, it's it's in the Ramola and 1243 01:11:45,400 --> 01:11:47,080 Speaker 6: LB the governor in the West Bank. 1244 01:11:47,240 --> 01:11:48,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm going to get a little bit more into 1245 01:11:48,920 --> 01:11:51,120 Speaker 2: it of why this is all happening. We just wanted 1246 01:11:51,160 --> 01:11:54,280 Speaker 2: to kind of paint the picture for you first of 1247 01:11:54,320 --> 01:11:56,120 Speaker 2: all of the big events that have happened. I guess. 1248 01:11:57,640 --> 01:12:00,960 Speaker 2: So this violence against the people of this town and 1249 01:12:01,000 --> 01:12:04,519 Speaker 2: the shooting of Forestraelis followed an incursion by the IDF 1250 01:12:04,600 --> 01:12:08,000 Speaker 2: and Israeli border forces into the Genine refugee camp. It 1251 01:12:08,000 --> 01:12:11,040 Speaker 2: was an operational scale not seen for decades. So did 1252 01:12:11,080 --> 01:12:14,280 Speaker 2: you tear gus s Dun grenades and an attack helicopter. 1253 01:12:14,520 --> 01:12:18,000 Speaker 2: Seven Palestinians were killed, nearly one hundred were wounded. 1254 01:12:18,080 --> 01:12:19,880 Speaker 6: And I feel like this is not the first time. 1255 01:12:20,000 --> 01:12:22,599 Speaker 6: If you've been following any Palestinian news that you've heard 1256 01:12:22,640 --> 01:12:26,679 Speaker 6: of Janine the refugee camp, or that it's being attacked, 1257 01:12:27,000 --> 01:12:29,160 Speaker 6: it might sound familiar. I'll get into it more later, 1258 01:12:29,240 --> 01:12:33,880 Speaker 6: but Sharene abou Ocle was actually killed while reporting there. 1259 01:12:34,479 --> 01:12:37,200 Speaker 6: So I want to get into just why exactly Israel 1260 01:12:37,280 --> 01:12:40,880 Speaker 6: keeps raiding the Janine refugee camp in particular, and I 1261 01:12:40,920 --> 01:12:43,880 Speaker 6: want to talk about the camp's history, why it's getting targeted, 1262 01:12:44,040 --> 01:12:47,040 Speaker 6: and why the latest raid was different than the ones 1263 01:12:47,080 --> 01:12:51,800 Speaker 6: before it. Janine is slowly becoming a symbol of Palestinian resistance. 1264 01:12:51,960 --> 01:12:54,960 Speaker 6: It was originally established in nineteen fifty three to house 1265 01:12:55,000 --> 01:12:58,160 Speaker 6: Palestinians who were ethnically cleansed during the Nekaba of nineteen 1266 01:12:58,200 --> 01:13:01,920 Speaker 6: forty eight, which force seven hundred and fifty thousand people 1267 01:13:01,920 --> 01:13:04,519 Speaker 6: from their homes in order to make way for the 1268 01:13:04,640 --> 01:13:07,240 Speaker 6: establishment of Israel. And again we've talked about this in 1269 01:13:07,280 --> 01:13:09,800 Speaker 6: other episode. You want to revisit those but essentially he 1270 01:13:09,880 --> 01:13:13,760 Speaker 6: was just a very perfect example of ethnic cleansing and massacres, 1271 01:13:13,760 --> 01:13:18,559 Speaker 6: in genocide and displacement. So the camp has seen much 1272 01:13:18,680 --> 01:13:21,400 Speaker 6: unrest over the decades, and it was nearly destroyed in 1273 01:13:21,400 --> 01:13:24,639 Speaker 6: two thousand and two when Israeli soldiers ambushed it during 1274 01:13:24,680 --> 01:13:28,840 Speaker 6: the Second Antifada. According to a Human Rights Watch investigation, 1275 01:13:29,080 --> 01:13:32,479 Speaker 6: at least fifty two Palestinians, including women and children, were 1276 01:13:32,560 --> 01:13:36,280 Speaker 6: killed during this period of time. In two thousand and two, 1277 01:13:36,320 --> 01:13:38,880 Speaker 6: during the Second Anthi Fada, there were also at least 1278 01:13:38,880 --> 01:13:42,000 Speaker 6: twenty three Israeli soldiers killed and several others injured that 1279 01:13:42,040 --> 01:13:47,280 Speaker 6: were reported. And since then, Janine has recently seen intensifying 1280 01:13:47,320 --> 01:13:51,599 Speaker 6: attacks by Israeli forces, especially since twenty twenty one, and 1281 01:13:51,920 --> 01:13:55,120 Speaker 6: it has slowly, along with Gaza, become a major symbol 1282 01:13:55,160 --> 01:13:59,800 Speaker 6: of Palestinian resistance. At this point, Palestinians are really fed 1283 01:13:59,880 --> 01:14:03,280 Speaker 6: up up with the enaction of the Palestinian Authority the PA, 1284 01:14:03,720 --> 01:14:07,120 Speaker 6: which is the government entity meant to oversee and quote 1285 01:14:07,160 --> 01:14:11,920 Speaker 6: unquote protect the Palestinians within its governance. The Palistine Authority 1286 01:14:12,160 --> 01:14:15,240 Speaker 6: was formed in nineteen ninety four following the Gaza Jericho 1287 01:14:15,320 --> 01:14:18,439 Speaker 6: Agreement between the PLO and the Government of Israel, and 1288 01:14:18,479 --> 01:14:21,960 Speaker 6: it was only intended to be a five year interim body. 1289 01:14:22,680 --> 01:14:25,479 Speaker 6: Further negotiations were then meant to take place between the 1290 01:14:25,479 --> 01:14:29,800 Speaker 6: two parties regarding its final status. According to the Oslo Accords, 1291 01:14:29,840 --> 01:14:33,719 Speaker 6: the Palestinian Authority was designated to have exclusive control over 1292 01:14:33,760 --> 01:14:38,120 Speaker 6: both security related and civilian issues in the Palestinian urban areas, 1293 01:14:38,360 --> 01:14:41,880 Speaker 6: which are referred to as Area A, and only Palestinian 1294 01:14:41,920 --> 01:14:46,000 Speaker 6: control over Palestinian rural areas, which is called Area B. 1295 01:14:47,080 --> 01:14:50,679 Speaker 6: The remainder of the territories, including Israeli settlement, the Jordan 1296 01:14:50,760 --> 01:14:54,960 Speaker 6: Valley region and bypass roads between Palestinian communities, were to 1297 01:14:55,040 --> 01:14:59,920 Speaker 6: remain under Israeli control aka Area C. East Jerusalem was 1298 01:15:00,040 --> 01:15:05,120 Speaker 6: excluded from the accords. Negotiations with several Israeli governments had 1299 01:15:05,200 --> 01:15:08,240 Speaker 6: resulted in the Authority gaining further control in some areas, 1300 01:15:08,240 --> 01:15:11,080 Speaker 6: but that control was then lost in some areas when 1301 01:15:11,160 --> 01:15:15,840 Speaker 6: Israel retook several strategic positions during the Second Antifaba. At 1302 01:15:15,840 --> 01:15:20,000 Speaker 6: this point, the Palestine Authority is an authoritarian regime that 1303 01:15:20,080 --> 01:15:23,640 Speaker 6: has not held elections in over fifteen years, and it 1304 01:15:23,680 --> 01:15:26,559 Speaker 6: doesn't really stand in the way of the Israeli government 1305 01:15:26,600 --> 01:15:31,280 Speaker 6: and the crimes they commit. So what concerns Israel is 1306 01:15:31,320 --> 01:15:35,479 Speaker 6: that in Janine and elsewhere. Young Palestinians are increasingly taking 1307 01:15:35,600 --> 01:15:38,439 Speaker 6: up arms because they see no other way out of 1308 01:15:38,479 --> 01:15:41,840 Speaker 6: the pressure of occupation, and they're very disillusioned with the 1309 01:15:42,840 --> 01:15:45,120 Speaker 6: ineffectiveness of the Palestinian authority. 1310 01:15:45,640 --> 01:15:49,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's a really important way too. Like 1311 01:15:49,120 --> 01:15:52,720 Speaker 2: when we talk about like especially Palestinian people taking up arms, 1312 01:15:52,760 --> 01:15:55,320 Speaker 2: right or expecting these new groups which have come in 1313 01:15:55,320 --> 01:15:59,080 Speaker 2: the last couple of years, Right, there's that Lions Day group. 1314 01:15:59,120 --> 01:16:03,840 Speaker 2: I think they're more like nobles. Janine Brigades is another one. 1315 01:16:04,400 --> 01:16:07,439 Speaker 2: It's in the context of like government failure or state 1316 01:16:07,439 --> 01:16:11,519 Speaker 2: failure in I guess when we look at like the 1317 01:16:11,520 --> 01:16:16,120 Speaker 2: formation of states, right, when there's the it's called social contracts, 1318 01:16:16,120 --> 01:16:19,599 Speaker 2: the area, right, the idea that when we go and consent, 1319 01:16:19,760 --> 01:16:22,479 Speaker 2: which we don't do, but we don't ever, like we 1320 01:16:22,520 --> 01:16:24,720 Speaker 2: don't have a chance to consent to being in a state, right, 1321 01:16:24,720 --> 01:16:27,559 Speaker 2: like very obviously if you're from Palestine, you're aware of this, 1322 01:16:28,520 --> 01:16:30,160 Speaker 2: Like we were supposed to give up some of our 1323 01:16:30,200 --> 01:16:34,280 Speaker 2: freedom and get some security, but the Palestinian authority has 1324 01:16:34,320 --> 01:16:38,680 Speaker 2: repeatedly failed to protect people in Geneine right and in 1325 01:16:38,720 --> 01:16:43,320 Speaker 2: lots of other places too, and so like this response, 1326 01:16:43,720 --> 01:16:46,439 Speaker 2: like this response is taking up aren't is in the 1327 01:16:46,479 --> 01:16:48,720 Speaker 2: context of state failure, right, Like people are trying to 1328 01:16:48,760 --> 01:16:51,479 Speaker 2: protect their own communities when there's been a complete failure 1329 01:16:51,520 --> 01:16:53,720 Speaker 2: by the people who are supposed to protect them, the 1330 01:16:53,760 --> 01:16:57,000 Speaker 2: people who is and that's both the PA and then 1331 01:16:57,160 --> 01:17:00,439 Speaker 2: like the broader the international community is kind of a 1332 01:17:00,439 --> 01:17:04,760 Speaker 2: pointless phrase. It doesn't really mean anything. But like international 1333 01:17:04,840 --> 01:17:07,320 Speaker 2: law is also a pointless phrase. It doesn't really mean anything, 1334 01:17:08,200 --> 01:17:13,200 Speaker 2: which I'm getting too far afield here, but like the 1335 01:17:13,280 --> 01:17:15,679 Speaker 2: amount of times people in my replies on Twitter will 1336 01:17:15,720 --> 01:17:18,559 Speaker 2: be like, this is against international law, and like are 1337 01:17:18,600 --> 01:17:21,519 Speaker 2: you going to go and fucking enforce it? Then? Good? 1338 01:17:21,600 --> 01:17:23,120 Speaker 6: Like guess if that matter is at that point, Yeah, 1339 01:17:23,120 --> 01:17:23,720 Speaker 6: it's just so good. 1340 01:17:24,000 --> 01:17:27,120 Speaker 2: It doesn't matter, like what we know it's bad. I 1341 01:17:27,160 --> 01:17:29,320 Speaker 2: don't like, that's not what's up for debate? That what's 1342 01:17:29,520 --> 01:17:31,040 Speaker 2: for debates? What the fuck are you going to do 1343 01:17:31,080 --> 01:17:32,519 Speaker 2: about it? How are you going to stop it? And 1344 01:17:32,600 --> 01:17:34,680 Speaker 2: like these people have decided that the way they're going 1345 01:17:34,720 --> 01:17:36,760 Speaker 2: to stop it is by taking up arms, and like, 1346 01:17:37,560 --> 01:17:42,240 Speaker 2: evidently Israel sees them as terrorists. Evidently there are some 1347 01:17:43,040 --> 01:17:46,240 Speaker 2: groups inside Palestine who have killed civilians and done shit, 1348 01:17:46,320 --> 01:17:51,200 Speaker 2: which is is you know, like, it's not very nice. Also, 1349 01:17:51,240 --> 01:17:55,519 Speaker 2: the idea of killed civilians all the time, right, one 1350 01:17:55,600 --> 01:18:01,479 Speaker 2: of them is funded and armed by your taxes, and 1351 01:18:01,800 --> 01:18:07,040 Speaker 2: so like, yeah, it's it's an understandable response. And the 1352 01:18:07,080 --> 01:18:09,760 Speaker 2: response of the IDF is to sort of paint the 1353 01:18:09,760 --> 01:18:14,920 Speaker 2: whole of Janine as harboring quote unquoite terrorists, right, which 1354 01:18:14,960 --> 01:18:18,400 Speaker 2: which is, and then to do these attacks which often 1355 01:18:18,640 --> 01:18:23,440 Speaker 2: cause civilian casualties, which is not that distinct from suggesting 1356 01:18:23,520 --> 01:18:28,559 Speaker 2: that Israel is a terrorist state, right, and then attacking Israel, 1357 01:18:28,640 --> 01:18:30,679 Speaker 2: which like, but one of these things is more broadly 1358 01:18:30,680 --> 01:18:34,200 Speaker 2: condemned is terrorism, and one is not as broadly condemned 1359 01:18:34,240 --> 01:18:37,320 Speaker 2: as terrorism. When then they're not, to my eye, that 1360 01:18:37,439 --> 01:18:41,720 Speaker 2: morally different. I guess, yeah, that makes sense. 1361 01:18:41,800 --> 01:18:43,880 Speaker 6: I agree, and I also think, no, it makes a 1362 01:18:43,880 --> 01:18:47,840 Speaker 6: lot of sense. I think remembering the imbalance that it 1363 01:18:47,920 --> 01:18:51,920 Speaker 6: starts at is so important because Palestine has no army, 1364 01:18:52,160 --> 01:18:55,360 Speaker 6: it's not backed by any rich ass nation, it's not 1365 01:18:55,439 --> 01:19:00,799 Speaker 6: trained by anything, and it's an extremely unbalanced unquote battle. 1366 01:19:01,400 --> 01:19:05,200 Speaker 2: No one's deploying an Apache helicopter when when the idea 1367 01:19:05,200 --> 01:19:06,439 Speaker 2: of killers journalist right. 1368 01:19:06,360 --> 01:19:10,920 Speaker 6: Like exactly, and yeah, like sharenaut Oarckley was a US citizen. 1369 01:19:10,960 --> 01:19:12,920 Speaker 6: Not that it matters, but it should matter just in 1370 01:19:13,000 --> 01:19:15,240 Speaker 6: the idea of what the US can do or like 1371 01:19:15,320 --> 01:19:18,280 Speaker 6: the outrage it can have, but it doesn't. 1372 01:19:17,960 --> 01:19:22,280 Speaker 2: Do anything as a journalist who goes to dangerous places 1373 01:19:22,320 --> 01:19:27,920 Speaker 2: and is a US citizen. Now, like it's fucking infuriating 1374 01:19:28,320 --> 01:19:32,120 Speaker 2: and obviously like and particularly thing that like you know, 1375 01:19:32,240 --> 01:19:34,880 Speaker 2: like daddy government is coming to save me. I'm not 1376 01:19:35,000 --> 01:19:37,599 Speaker 2: like you know, if you if you're laboring under that illusion, 1377 01:19:37,600 --> 01:19:41,600 Speaker 2: you're probably a little bit naive. But it is just 1378 01:19:41,920 --> 01:19:47,559 Speaker 2: incredibly frustrating to see the value of some quote unquote 1379 01:19:47,560 --> 01:19:52,160 Speaker 2: American lives, like it's it's it's always wrong to shoot journalists, 1380 01:19:52,160 --> 01:19:55,559 Speaker 2: of course, but like it's just in the US basically 1381 01:19:55,600 --> 01:20:00,640 Speaker 2: condoning that. It's yes, as again, this isn't first if 1382 01:20:00,680 --> 01:20:05,040 Speaker 2: I can get like Arab journalist that the US who 1383 01:20:05,080 --> 01:20:07,559 Speaker 2: is a US citizen who has been killed by an 1384 01:20:07,560 --> 01:20:10,640 Speaker 2: authoritarian regime, that the US had done fuck all about. 1385 01:20:10,880 --> 01:20:13,760 Speaker 6: Yeah, No, I think it's just a slap in the 1386 01:20:13,800 --> 01:20:16,760 Speaker 6: face for her family and just the entire community of 1387 01:20:16,800 --> 01:20:20,360 Speaker 6: like both Arabs and journalists and that crossover there. But 1388 01:20:20,880 --> 01:20:24,320 Speaker 6: I did want to mention just the terrorism. Acts on 1389 01:20:24,360 --> 01:20:28,040 Speaker 6: both sides are obviously terrible. I just think you have 1390 01:20:28,080 --> 01:20:32,040 Speaker 6: to remember where they started and the imbalance that is there, 1391 01:20:32,520 --> 01:20:35,519 Speaker 6: especially if the entity that is supposed to protect the 1392 01:20:35,520 --> 01:20:41,040 Speaker 6: Palestinians isn't doing shit and the only way Palestinians can 1393 01:20:41,960 --> 01:20:45,320 Speaker 6: fight back or defend themselves is with violence. 1394 01:20:45,520 --> 01:20:47,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I don't know. 1395 01:20:47,360 --> 01:20:51,680 Speaker 6: It's just frustrating when people point out the violence on 1396 01:20:51,880 --> 01:20:55,920 Speaker 6: just the Palestinian side, and we'll get into the news 1397 01:20:56,000 --> 01:20:57,960 Speaker 6: version of what that means and then biases of what 1398 01:20:58,000 --> 01:21:00,200 Speaker 6: that means it a little bit, but yeah, I just's 1399 01:21:00,479 --> 01:21:03,599 Speaker 6: explaining exactly why these groups have risen. 1400 01:21:03,680 --> 01:21:08,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's just to be an absolute fuckingd weep for 1401 01:21:08,240 --> 01:21:11,080 Speaker 2: a second. The introduction to Wretched of the Earth that 1402 01:21:11,160 --> 01:21:13,479 Speaker 2: John Paul starts Were wrote, it's a France fan on 1403 01:21:13,520 --> 01:21:16,560 Speaker 2: book is fantastic when talking about violence and violence in 1404 01:21:16,600 --> 01:21:21,000 Speaker 2: the decolonial process, and like how it's very nice that 1405 01:21:21,080 --> 01:21:25,840 Speaker 2: these colonial states, apartheid states like Israel speak in the 1406 01:21:25,920 --> 01:21:28,800 Speaker 2: language of rights. Yeah, and they encourage to colonize people 1407 01:21:28,840 --> 01:21:30,559 Speaker 2: to make their claims in the language of rights. But 1408 01:21:30,600 --> 01:21:33,760 Speaker 2: every time they fucking do, they get met with violence, right, 1409 01:21:34,400 --> 01:21:38,639 Speaker 2: And it is entirely understandable that when the state speaks 1410 01:21:38,720 --> 01:21:41,400 Speaker 2: you only in violence, you will reply using the same 1411 01:21:41,479 --> 01:21:44,760 Speaker 2: language that is spoken to you with right, Like that 1412 01:21:45,120 --> 01:21:51,240 Speaker 2: that is how decolonial struggles have been, right from Algeria 1413 01:21:51,320 --> 01:21:56,040 Speaker 2: to Vietnam to Palestine. And like this isn't a particularly 1414 01:21:56,120 --> 01:21:59,160 Speaker 2: like under theorized concept. It's there and Pano in the 1415 01:21:59,240 --> 01:22:03,400 Speaker 2: nineteen sixty that's always something I like to suggest people read. 1416 01:22:03,439 --> 01:22:06,519 Speaker 2: I think it's a very good kind of distillation of 1417 01:22:06,800 --> 01:22:07,479 Speaker 2: what's occurring. 1418 01:22:07,680 --> 01:22:10,559 Speaker 6: Yeah, No, I like that you mentioned that because it 1419 01:22:10,600 --> 01:22:16,000 Speaker 6: does seem like that this is like a Palestinian problem 1420 01:22:16,040 --> 01:22:18,120 Speaker 6: that they have, that they are violent and that they 1421 01:22:18,200 --> 01:22:21,599 Speaker 6: hate the other side, and it is just another good 1422 01:22:21,640 --> 01:22:25,560 Speaker 6: example of the effects of colonialism, and like that's the 1423 01:22:26,640 --> 01:22:30,960 Speaker 6: occupied people and their only choice of like retaliation. Anyway, 1424 01:22:31,000 --> 01:22:33,040 Speaker 6: I don't want to get into that too much, but 1425 01:22:33,080 --> 01:22:38,560 Speaker 6: I do want to emphasize why exactly that they were disillusioned, 1426 01:22:38,600 --> 01:22:43,000 Speaker 6: the Palestinian youth, especially during this time, because the IDEF 1427 01:22:43,000 --> 01:22:46,240 Speaker 6: has been extremely violent and the PA still is really 1428 01:22:46,240 --> 01:22:52,520 Speaker 6: inactive and doesn't do anything. So that's kind of the 1429 01:22:52,520 --> 01:22:53,599 Speaker 6: reason why there. 1430 01:22:53,840 --> 01:22:56,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we have a little more on Shury neverorrectly 1431 01:22:57,000 --> 01:22:57,519 Speaker 2: if you want. 1432 01:22:57,400 --> 01:23:01,160 Speaker 6: To oh yeah, we have an episode about her, I believe, 1433 01:23:02,560 --> 01:23:04,519 Speaker 6: and I'm going to mention her a little bit here. 1434 01:23:05,240 --> 01:23:09,479 Speaker 6: The gen and refugee camp houses armed fighters and they 1435 01:23:09,479 --> 01:23:12,719 Speaker 6: are from several factions, but this means Israeli's They consider 1436 01:23:12,760 --> 01:23:15,559 Speaker 6: it a hub for what they call terrorist activity rather 1437 01:23:15,640 --> 01:23:19,720 Speaker 6: than resistance, so the entire camp is then dubbed a 1438 01:23:19,840 --> 01:23:23,040 Speaker 6: terrorist site. But most of the people what the IDEF 1439 01:23:23,080 --> 01:23:26,760 Speaker 6: has killed are not engaging in any sort of violent activity, 1440 01:23:26,760 --> 01:23:29,920 Speaker 6: and in some cases they are clearly marked as press 1441 01:23:30,080 --> 01:23:33,320 Speaker 6: wearing a bulletproof vest and a helmet, like El Jazeera 1442 01:23:33,400 --> 01:23:36,559 Speaker 6: journalist Sharina bu Akle, for one, she was shot dead 1443 01:23:36,600 --> 01:23:39,080 Speaker 6: by an Israeli sniper in May twenty twenty two, and 1444 01:23:39,120 --> 01:23:42,240 Speaker 6: in her case, the IDF said they were aiming at 1445 01:23:42,360 --> 01:23:46,280 Speaker 6: armed Palestinians who were shooting at them and responding with fire, 1446 01:23:47,040 --> 01:23:50,799 Speaker 6: and after I don't know a lot of inconclusive proof 1447 01:23:50,840 --> 01:23:54,000 Speaker 6: in the IDF sticking to that story. A ballistics analysis 1448 01:23:54,040 --> 01:23:57,160 Speaker 6: proved that that story wasn't true and there was no 1449 01:23:57,360 --> 01:24:01,320 Speaker 6: fire coming from the other side. Regardless, no one cares 1450 01:24:01,320 --> 01:24:05,360 Speaker 6: about that, and this happened all in Janine. So I 1451 01:24:05,400 --> 01:24:08,720 Speaker 6: think it's very clear why this camp has become a 1452 01:24:08,760 --> 01:24:13,400 Speaker 6: symbol of resistance simply because the atrocities that have happened 1453 01:24:13,400 --> 01:24:16,960 Speaker 6: there are tremendous and they keep fighting back. And I 1454 01:24:16,960 --> 01:24:22,040 Speaker 6: think it's an example of how exactly a Palestinian symbol 1455 01:24:22,120 --> 01:24:25,080 Speaker 6: comes to be, like Gaza, like this, whatever it is. 1456 01:24:25,640 --> 01:24:28,280 Speaker 2: I wanted to include a coat from the Israeli military 1457 01:24:28,320 --> 01:24:33,479 Speaker 2: spokesman Ran Kouchov. He told Army Radio, which I guess 1458 01:24:33,560 --> 01:24:35,760 Speaker 2: is not exactly a kind of neutral arbit to here, 1459 01:24:36,560 --> 01:24:39,160 Speaker 2: that she was filming and working for a media outlet 1460 01:24:39,160 --> 01:24:43,720 Speaker 2: amidst arm Palestinians. They were armed with cameras, if you 1461 01:24:43,760 --> 01:24:46,720 Speaker 2: will permit me to say so, which like no, like 1462 01:24:46,760 --> 01:24:51,640 Speaker 2: we should not not fucking permit someone because like you know, 1463 01:24:51,840 --> 01:24:55,000 Speaker 2: I'll go to all kinds of dangerous spots with a camera. 1464 01:24:55,080 --> 01:24:57,240 Speaker 2: Like I've never fucking shot someone with a camera, because 1465 01:24:57,240 --> 01:25:00,200 Speaker 2: it's a fucking camera, right, Like it doesn't it And 1466 01:25:00,439 --> 01:25:03,000 Speaker 2: that's not what cameras do. They take videos. 1467 01:25:03,320 --> 01:25:06,479 Speaker 6: It's the most like I can't believe that's an actual 1468 01:25:06,560 --> 01:25:09,800 Speaker 6: quote that's someone said and got away with. 1469 01:25:10,240 --> 01:25:12,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, what the fuck is wrong? Like what it's just 1470 01:25:12,520 --> 01:25:15,439 Speaker 2: incorrect operation of the human brain to use the fucking 1471 01:25:15,479 --> 01:25:17,360 Speaker 2: phrase arm with camera like what is wrong with you? 1472 01:25:19,439 --> 01:25:22,120 Speaker 2: It's I know, people get really people got really mad 1473 01:25:22,160 --> 01:25:24,960 Speaker 2: briefly when Russians were shooting journalists in Ukraine in the 1474 01:25:25,040 --> 01:25:30,000 Speaker 2: star of the conflict, and like I guess they were 1475 01:25:30,080 --> 01:25:31,920 Speaker 2: kind of as we mask off about this, but like, yeah, 1476 01:25:32,080 --> 01:25:35,439 Speaker 2: it's a fucking camera. If if your security is threatened 1477 01:25:35,479 --> 01:25:39,479 Speaker 2: by someone filming the ship that you do, it's because 1478 01:25:39,479 --> 01:25:41,080 Speaker 2: you shouldn't be doing it, and you know you shouldn't 1479 01:25:41,080 --> 01:25:46,439 Speaker 2: be doing it right, like and again, like I've experienced that, 1480 01:25:46,640 --> 01:25:48,640 Speaker 2: like people people you know, doing stuff they don't want 1481 01:25:48,680 --> 01:25:50,080 Speaker 2: to be filmed and getting mad that I'm filming it. 1482 01:25:50,120 --> 01:25:52,640 Speaker 2: But like maybe if you're not prepared to defend what 1483 01:25:52,640 --> 01:25:56,200 Speaker 2: you're doing, you shouldn't be doing it. You don't, you know, 1484 01:25:56,840 --> 01:25:59,000 Speaker 2: you don't suggest that the camera is the camera is 1485 01:25:59,160 --> 01:26:02,679 Speaker 2: it's a new straw object here. It's not the camera 1486 01:26:02,760 --> 01:26:04,000 Speaker 2: that shot a woman in the head. 1487 01:26:04,560 --> 01:26:09,320 Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean that sentence is infuriating the fact that 1488 01:26:09,640 --> 01:26:15,320 Speaker 6: literally it says they were amidst armed Palestinians and then 1489 01:26:15,320 --> 01:26:17,200 Speaker 6: you couldn't you could stop there and people can just 1490 01:26:17,240 --> 01:26:19,439 Speaker 6: like click out and read and like move on their 1491 01:26:19,520 --> 01:26:21,639 Speaker 6: day thinking that they had fucking guns. And the next 1492 01:26:21,680 --> 01:26:24,640 Speaker 6: sentence is literally they're armed with cameras, Like are you 1493 01:26:24,680 --> 01:26:26,640 Speaker 6: I don't know. That's just so infuriating to me that 1494 01:26:26,640 --> 01:26:29,240 Speaker 6: that's like a real thing that was said and accepted. 1495 01:26:29,800 --> 01:26:32,479 Speaker 2: It seems to be like almost deliberately insulting or I 1496 01:26:32,640 --> 01:26:34,960 Speaker 2: don't know, like it's definitely an attack on Like I 1497 01:26:34,960 --> 01:26:37,000 Speaker 2: don't know. If you're a journalist and you don't see 1498 01:26:37,000 --> 01:26:39,040 Speaker 2: that of an attack on all of us, then you know, 1499 01:26:39,280 --> 01:26:42,520 Speaker 2: made me examine your biases, I guess. Yeah. 1500 01:26:42,560 --> 01:26:46,120 Speaker 6: And then the ballistics analysis that I mentioned earlier where 1501 01:26:46,120 --> 01:26:48,800 Speaker 6: she was it showed that where she was shot there 1502 01:26:48,800 --> 01:26:51,639 Speaker 6: were several targeted shots, one of which hit her head 1503 01:26:51,760 --> 01:26:54,160 Speaker 6: because there were shots in the tree that was behind her, 1504 01:26:54,439 --> 01:26:55,920 Speaker 6: so she was clearly targeted. 1505 01:26:56,360 --> 01:26:59,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, because she was shot by a sniper at the 1506 01:26:59,000 --> 01:27:01,040 Speaker 2: back of one of very PCs. Right, they have a 1507 01:27:01,080 --> 01:27:05,320 Speaker 2: little little like murder hole, and she was shot from 1508 01:27:05,320 --> 01:27:07,360 Speaker 2: two hundred meters to which is not very far with 1509 01:27:07,560 --> 01:27:11,840 Speaker 2: a magnified sign and like, yeah, you don't just it 1510 01:27:11,840 --> 01:27:14,000 Speaker 2: wouldn't look like that, I guess, Like three little holes 1511 01:27:14,040 --> 01:27:16,600 Speaker 2: behind where her head was suggested that someone fired like 1512 01:27:16,600 --> 01:27:19,960 Speaker 2: a single shirts targeted, not just like spraying it sprain 1513 01:27:20,000 --> 01:27:21,839 Speaker 2: bullets around. Yeah. 1514 01:27:22,040 --> 01:27:23,719 Speaker 6: I don't want to talk about it too much because 1515 01:27:23,720 --> 01:27:26,040 Speaker 6: there it is, that's on the topic of this episode. 1516 01:27:26,080 --> 01:27:28,000 Speaker 6: But I do want to just say that I think 1517 01:27:28,040 --> 01:27:31,080 Speaker 6: it's so ironic that the idea is supposed to be 1518 01:27:31,120 --> 01:27:35,280 Speaker 6: this most advanced military body, this highly trained thing, and 1519 01:27:35,280 --> 01:27:38,360 Speaker 6: then at the same breath their defenses sometimes they made 1520 01:27:38,360 --> 01:27:40,519 Speaker 6: a mistake. Oops, you know what I mean, Like they 1521 01:27:40,560 --> 01:27:42,880 Speaker 6: made this grave mistake. They thought she was carrying a 1522 01:27:42,920 --> 01:27:45,040 Speaker 6: gun or she was around people with guns. I just 1523 01:27:45,080 --> 01:27:48,960 Speaker 6: think that's a very silly I don't know. 1524 01:27:50,040 --> 01:27:53,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm being shure. It's true, I suppose, and you can. 1525 01:27:53,520 --> 01:27:56,200 Speaker 2: You can make mistakes. But if you make mistakes, you 1526 01:27:56,200 --> 01:27:59,200 Speaker 2: own them. You could still be like, oh, yeah, we 1527 01:27:58,960 --> 01:28:01,200 Speaker 2: we one hundred percent fucked up, and like we need 1528 01:28:01,240 --> 01:28:02,559 Speaker 2: to examine how we fucked up. 1529 01:28:02,840 --> 01:28:05,640 Speaker 6: You know, that's just their defense. So many times it 1530 01:28:05,640 --> 01:28:08,280 Speaker 6: gets really fucking old. But Okay, before we continue and 1531 01:28:08,320 --> 01:28:10,760 Speaker 6: talk about the recent attack in Janine, let's take our 1532 01:28:10,800 --> 01:28:14,080 Speaker 6: first break and we'll be right back. And we're back. 1533 01:28:14,400 --> 01:28:17,519 Speaker 6: Let's go back to talk about the latest raid on 1534 01:28:17,720 --> 01:28:21,960 Speaker 6: the Janine refugee camp. The Israeli Army launched its latest 1535 01:28:22,080 --> 01:28:25,080 Speaker 6: raid on the Janine refugee camp in the early hours 1536 01:28:25,120 --> 01:28:29,320 Speaker 6: of Monday, June nineteenth. Five people, including a fifteen year old, 1537 01:28:29,439 --> 01:28:32,320 Speaker 6: were dead by the time it withdrew its forces in 1538 01:28:32,360 --> 01:28:36,280 Speaker 6: the afternoon. Others died the following day because of their injuries. 1539 01:28:37,120 --> 01:28:40,240 Speaker 6: Several journalists were shot at and they were surrounded and 1540 01:28:40,240 --> 01:28:44,400 Speaker 6: one was injured. This raid ironically took place near the 1541 01:28:44,439 --> 01:28:48,800 Speaker 6: location where Sharin A Blockley was killed. Several ambulances were 1542 01:28:48,840 --> 01:28:52,320 Speaker 6: also fired upon with live ammunition, and at first they 1543 01:28:52,320 --> 01:28:54,840 Speaker 6: were denied access to the injured, which is nothing new 1544 01:28:54,880 --> 01:28:57,960 Speaker 6: to the IDF. They do this consistently with the block 1545 01:28:58,439 --> 01:29:02,640 Speaker 6: medical aid to reach the people that are injured. The 1546 01:29:02,680 --> 01:29:05,880 Speaker 6: Israeli armies said the raid was to arrest two suspects, 1547 01:29:05,920 --> 01:29:09,120 Speaker 6: one of whom was a former Palestinian prisoner, Asim Abu 1548 01:29:09,120 --> 01:29:13,080 Speaker 6: ad Haija, who was the son of an imprisoned Hamas leader. 1549 01:29:14,040 --> 01:29:15,840 Speaker 6: I just want a quick reminder of refresh. I know 1550 01:29:15,920 --> 01:29:18,360 Speaker 6: I say this in most of the episodes about Palestine, 1551 01:29:18,520 --> 01:29:21,240 Speaker 6: especially the ones I've done in the beginning of this year, 1552 01:29:21,680 --> 01:29:25,439 Speaker 6: but in twenty twenty two, Israeli forces killed more than 1553 01:29:25,479 --> 01:29:28,959 Speaker 6: one hundred and seventy Palestinians, including at least thirty children 1554 01:29:29,439 --> 01:29:32,479 Speaker 6: in occupied East Jerusalem and in the West Bank, and 1555 01:29:32,520 --> 01:29:35,760 Speaker 6: this is described as the deadliest year for Palestinians and 1556 01:29:35,800 --> 01:29:38,000 Speaker 6: those living in those areas since two thousand and six. 1557 01:29:38,520 --> 01:29:41,320 Speaker 6: Since the start of twenty twenty three, Israeli forces have 1558 01:29:41,439 --> 01:29:45,719 Speaker 6: killed at least one hundred and sixty Palestinians, including twenty 1559 01:29:45,760 --> 01:29:50,679 Speaker 6: six children, and it's June. The death toll includes thirty 1560 01:29:50,680 --> 01:29:53,599 Speaker 6: six Palestinians killed by the Israeli army during a four 1561 01:29:53,680 --> 01:29:56,679 Speaker 6: day assault on the besieged Gaza strip between May ninth 1562 01:29:56,760 --> 01:29:58,760 Speaker 6: and May thirteenth of this year. I just want to 1563 01:29:58,760 --> 01:30:01,640 Speaker 6: put that into contexts because if twenty twenty two was 1564 01:30:01,680 --> 01:30:08,000 Speaker 6: the deadliest year for Palestinians in the last twenty years 1565 01:30:08,040 --> 01:30:11,800 Speaker 6: and we're essentially already there by six months into this 1566 01:30:11,880 --> 01:30:14,559 Speaker 6: new year, it's just it's really disturbing and it's really 1567 01:30:14,600 --> 01:30:19,360 Speaker 6: heartbreaking that it's truly there's no slowing down. And this 1568 01:30:19,439 --> 01:30:21,559 Speaker 6: raid is a great example of them just like upping 1569 01:30:21,680 --> 01:30:25,280 Speaker 6: the ante. And what was different about this raid. Israeli 1570 01:30:25,320 --> 01:30:28,760 Speaker 6: offences into Janine are nothing new, but it appeared that 1571 01:30:28,800 --> 01:30:32,479 Speaker 6: the raiding soldiers were caught off guard this time. Shortly 1572 01:30:32,520 --> 01:30:36,400 Speaker 6: after the raid began, videos showed an Israeli military panther 1573 01:30:36,720 --> 01:30:42,080 Speaker 6: APC being hit with a roadside improvise explosive device, and 1574 01:30:42,360 --> 01:30:44,720 Speaker 6: there is a video of this. I haven't seen it 1575 01:30:44,760 --> 01:30:47,439 Speaker 6: because I just personally don't want to, but I said 1576 01:30:47,439 --> 01:30:50,160 Speaker 6: there if you choose to see it. Military helicopters then 1577 01:30:50,240 --> 01:30:54,440 Speaker 6: began shooting and launching rockets and flares while surveillance aircraft 1578 01:30:54,479 --> 01:30:57,840 Speaker 6: hovered above. It was the first time in twenty years 1579 01:30:57,880 --> 01:31:01,599 Speaker 6: that Israel deployed helicopter gunshow in the West Bank. By 1580 01:31:01,640 --> 01:31:04,360 Speaker 6: the end of the raid, reports suggested that at least 1581 01:31:04,400 --> 01:31:08,520 Speaker 6: five Israeli military vehicles had been damaged by explosive devices 1582 01:31:08,560 --> 01:31:12,280 Speaker 6: and bullets deployed by armed Palestinians. This was the first 1583 01:31:12,320 --> 01:31:16,120 Speaker 6: time the IDF was met with this understandable degree of 1584 01:31:16,160 --> 01:31:21,200 Speaker 6: resistance and defense Enginine, and their response was overwhelming. In return. 1585 01:31:21,840 --> 01:31:25,160 Speaker 2: Hi everyone, it's James and Train again and we're here 1586 01:31:25,200 --> 01:31:27,880 Speaker 2: today for a little update. It's the third of July 1587 01:31:28,080 --> 01:31:31,360 Speaker 2: as we're recording this. Just because there's been a significantly 1588 01:31:31,520 --> 01:31:35,360 Speaker 2: larger IDF incursion into the Genine refugee camp, and because 1589 01:31:35,400 --> 01:31:36,600 Speaker 2: we know this is coming out at the end of 1590 01:31:36,640 --> 01:31:37,840 Speaker 2: the week, we wanted to make sure you had a 1591 01:31:37,880 --> 01:31:42,439 Speaker 2: little bit more update to date information, so as best 1592 01:31:42,640 --> 01:31:44,840 Speaker 2: I can kind of bes together what happened is that 1593 01:31:44,920 --> 01:31:49,760 Speaker 2: some It'sraeli military vehicles were hit with an ID bomb, 1594 01:31:49,880 --> 01:31:55,080 Speaker 2: right roadside bomb and explosive device, and Israel responded by 1595 01:31:55,080 --> 01:31:58,800 Speaker 2: going fully ham on a scale that we haven't really 1596 01:31:58,800 --> 01:32:03,320 Speaker 2: seen since the second to fighter. So there's air attacks, 1597 01:32:03,479 --> 01:32:08,680 Speaker 2: droned helicopters, armored vehicles. I saw them using like an 1598 01:32:08,720 --> 01:32:13,719 Speaker 2: anti tank missile against a house. Saw videos of armored 1599 01:32:13,760 --> 01:32:19,759 Speaker 2: bulldozers tearing up roads in the camp, and preps sreen 1600 01:32:19,800 --> 01:32:21,120 Speaker 2: you could kind of give a scale of what this 1601 01:32:21,240 --> 01:32:23,160 Speaker 2: has done, not just to roads obviously, but to the 1602 01:32:23,160 --> 01:32:24,040 Speaker 2: people who live there. 1603 01:32:24,600 --> 01:32:27,240 Speaker 6: Yeah, like James was saying, they're continuing to attack with 1604 01:32:27,360 --> 01:32:32,000 Speaker 6: drones and rockets, and the Janine refugee camp is very 1605 01:32:32,000 --> 01:32:35,080 Speaker 6: densely populated. It has about twenty thousand people, and they 1606 01:32:35,080 --> 01:32:39,000 Speaker 6: are targeting infrastructure like homes and roads and the mirror 1607 01:32:39,040 --> 01:32:43,160 Speaker 6: of Jane Nidhal Obaidi, he said the attack was a 1608 01:32:43,200 --> 01:32:46,240 Speaker 6: real massacre and an attempt to wipe out all aspects 1609 01:32:46,280 --> 01:32:49,320 Speaker 6: of life inside the city and the camp. Those being 1610 01:32:49,360 --> 01:32:52,880 Speaker 6: targeted now are not just the resistance fighters, but civilians 1611 01:32:52,920 --> 01:32:57,479 Speaker 6: are being killed and wounded as well, and water and 1612 01:32:57,600 --> 01:33:00,519 Speaker 6: electricity services have also been cut off from the camp. 1613 01:33:00,760 --> 01:33:04,400 Speaker 6: Since the attack has started. In the Palestine, RECRESCENTCE said 1614 01:33:04,400 --> 01:33:08,040 Speaker 6: that at least three thousand people were evacuated from the camp. 1615 01:33:10,080 --> 01:33:14,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, and then as far as like at time of recording, 1616 01:33:14,120 --> 01:33:18,000 Speaker 2: which is Monday afternoon, eight people have been killed. One 1617 01:33:18,040 --> 01:33:22,000 Speaker 2: more person was called in Romala. The two youngest victims 1618 01:33:22,000 --> 01:33:26,759 Speaker 2: were identified as Nordine Hassam Yusuf Marshud who is fifteen, 1619 01:33:27,200 --> 01:33:32,920 Speaker 2: and seventeen year old Majdi Joannis surd Ararawi. So both 1620 01:33:32,960 --> 01:33:35,800 Speaker 2: of them under eighteen, but the oldest person was twenty three, 1621 01:33:35,840 --> 01:33:40,040 Speaker 2: So these are all very young people sally dead now. 1622 01:33:41,120 --> 01:33:44,840 Speaker 2: And then they estimate that Palestinia Request estimates that three 1623 01:33:44,840 --> 01:33:49,120 Speaker 2: thousand people have left the camp, which I think paints 1624 01:33:49,800 --> 01:33:53,800 Speaker 2: a picture of like emptying or cleaning or whatever colonial 1625 01:33:54,200 --> 01:33:56,320 Speaker 2: sort of word you want to use to make it 1626 01:33:56,320 --> 01:33:59,160 Speaker 2: seem less brutal than it is, but like emptying the 1627 01:33:59,200 --> 01:34:02,000 Speaker 2: space of human being so that it can be colonized 1628 01:34:02,080 --> 01:34:03,559 Speaker 2: or that other folks can move there, right. 1629 01:34:03,760 --> 01:34:09,000 Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah. In addition to some places are saying eight 1630 01:34:09,040 --> 01:34:13,040 Speaker 6: have died, some people some places are saying nine but regardless, 1631 01:34:13,080 --> 01:34:15,960 Speaker 6: there are over one hundred people that are injured, and 1632 01:34:16,280 --> 01:34:19,200 Speaker 6: so I don't know, the fact that the oldest person 1633 01:34:19,240 --> 01:34:21,360 Speaker 6: was only twenty three years old should really paint the 1634 01:34:21,400 --> 01:34:24,240 Speaker 6: picture of like who exactly is being targeted and killed, 1635 01:34:24,680 --> 01:34:29,439 Speaker 6: because there's no way their defense of targeting terrorists can 1636 01:34:29,439 --> 01:34:32,479 Speaker 6: play here, even though it probably does in the long run. 1637 01:34:33,080 --> 01:34:35,719 Speaker 6: But I just I think it's really fucked up and unfair. 1638 01:34:36,640 --> 01:34:40,120 Speaker 6: The White House meanwhile, so the United States quote supports 1639 01:34:40,200 --> 01:34:44,360 Speaker 6: Israel's security and right to defend its people against Hamas, 1640 01:34:44,400 --> 01:34:48,800 Speaker 6: Palestinian Islamic jihad and other terrorist groups, and they also 1641 01:34:48,880 --> 01:34:53,280 Speaker 6: highlighted the need to protect non combatants, which hasn't happened, 1642 01:34:53,760 --> 01:34:57,960 Speaker 6: and none of those people are actually being targeted or no, 1643 01:34:58,040 --> 01:35:00,240 Speaker 6: there's nothing to defend at this point. I really don't. 1644 01:35:02,400 --> 01:35:06,519 Speaker 2: I don't know. It's it's also weird that I don't know, 1645 01:35:06,640 --> 01:35:09,200 Speaker 2: Like it just seems such a knee jerk response. Maybe 1646 01:35:09,200 --> 01:35:11,200 Speaker 2: this is just me being being a dweeb or whatever, 1647 01:35:11,240 --> 01:35:15,880 Speaker 2: but like, at least one of the IDs was was 1648 01:35:16,400 --> 01:35:19,200 Speaker 2: like claimed by Janine Brigades, I think the one earlier 1649 01:35:19,280 --> 01:35:22,800 Speaker 2: last week to call out groups by name like and 1650 01:35:22,840 --> 01:35:25,160 Speaker 2: then not call out the group who are claiming responsibility 1651 01:35:25,200 --> 01:35:27,400 Speaker 2: for at least one of these attacks. It just seems 1652 01:35:27,439 --> 01:35:29,799 Speaker 2: so like okay, like press play on the tape. 1653 01:35:30,120 --> 01:35:32,720 Speaker 6: Yeah, they're also naming things that people are probably more 1654 01:35:32,720 --> 01:35:37,719 Speaker 6: familiar with, like almost to like justify or like entice 1655 01:35:37,800 --> 01:35:40,160 Speaker 6: fear of being like, oh my god, yeah Hammas attack 1656 01:35:40,240 --> 01:35:43,320 Speaker 6: Hamas or whatever they think will happen with that response 1657 01:35:45,360 --> 01:35:49,320 Speaker 6: in the international response. Yeah, the international response has also 1658 01:35:49,320 --> 01:35:52,800 Speaker 6: been dog shit, surprise, surprise, because it will always just 1659 01:35:52,800 --> 01:35:56,800 Speaker 6: talk and nothing really happens. Turkey's Foreign Ministry voice is 1660 01:35:56,840 --> 01:35:59,599 Speaker 6: deep concern over the attack. They warned that it can 1661 01:35:59,600 --> 01:36:03,000 Speaker 6: trigger a new spiral of violence it already has, and 1662 01:36:03,040 --> 01:36:06,479 Speaker 6: they called the Israeli encouragion a heinous crime. Cut Her 1663 01:36:07,080 --> 01:36:10,000 Speaker 6: stress that the need for international community to move urgently 1664 01:36:10,040 --> 01:36:13,880 Speaker 6: to protect the Palestinian people was very necessary. And then 1665 01:36:13,960 --> 01:36:18,639 Speaker 6: Jordan condemned the escalation as a violation of international humanitarian law, 1666 01:36:19,000 --> 01:36:23,759 Speaker 6: which Israel has been breaking for years. So nothing has happened. 1667 01:36:24,280 --> 01:36:27,479 Speaker 6: And then Egypt, on the other hand, it warned of 1668 01:36:27,560 --> 01:36:33,360 Speaker 6: serious repercussions and it called on other international people to intervene. 1669 01:36:34,280 --> 01:36:38,479 Speaker 6: And then the UN said the situation is very dangerous, 1670 01:36:38,479 --> 01:36:41,040 Speaker 6: like all these things I think have already been said 1671 01:36:41,280 --> 01:36:43,599 Speaker 6: every time. That's why. I just think it's so empty 1672 01:36:43,800 --> 01:36:48,120 Speaker 6: and I don't know, I nothing if it's just words 1673 01:36:48,120 --> 01:36:50,200 Speaker 6: and no actions, Like, how are we supposed to even 1674 01:36:50,200 --> 01:36:51,920 Speaker 6: take anything seriously? I guess I don't know. 1675 01:36:53,520 --> 01:36:56,759 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the the thoughts and prayers of the yeah, exactly, 1676 01:36:56,840 --> 01:37:00,400 Speaker 2: national like the UN is always deeply concerned that it 1677 01:37:00,439 --> 01:37:04,840 Speaker 2: never does fuck all right, So yeah, I guess to 1678 01:37:04,920 --> 01:37:08,680 Speaker 2: wrap up, we should talk about what this means for 1679 01:37:09,080 --> 01:37:13,200 Speaker 2: Janine as a place, like as a community. 1680 01:37:14,120 --> 01:37:17,599 Speaker 6: Yeah, we mentioned this in our previous recording last week. 1681 01:37:18,360 --> 01:37:21,240 Speaker 6: But Israel's attacks on Janine are part of an effort 1682 01:37:21,240 --> 01:37:24,799 Speaker 6: to crush resistance with the young Palestinians that are increasingly 1683 01:37:24,880 --> 01:37:28,040 Speaker 6: taking up arms because their disillusioned with the PA, and 1684 01:37:28,080 --> 01:37:31,280 Speaker 6: according to analysts, Israel's hard right government is likely to 1685 01:37:31,280 --> 01:37:34,679 Speaker 6: continue with heavy handed approach toward Palestinians in the West Bank. 1686 01:37:35,320 --> 01:37:39,439 Speaker 6: Palestinian lawyer and analyst Diana Buttu said Israel wants to 1687 01:37:39,439 --> 01:37:42,080 Speaker 6: do whatever it can to crush Janine in any other 1688 01:37:42,160 --> 01:37:45,320 Speaker 6: form of resistance. Israel has made it clear that there 1689 01:37:45,320 --> 01:37:49,360 Speaker 6: are three options available for Palestinians. Option one is to leave. 1690 01:37:49,720 --> 01:37:52,519 Speaker 6: Option two is to remain as residents, but not as 1691 01:37:52,520 --> 01:37:56,519 Speaker 6: citizens of any state. And option three is if you resist, 1692 01:37:56,840 --> 01:37:59,160 Speaker 6: we are going to crush you. This is what they 1693 01:37:59,160 --> 01:38:03,839 Speaker 6: are implementing. Yeah, yeah, I think that's well said. Yeah. 1694 01:38:04,280 --> 01:38:07,920 Speaker 6: Hassan Ayub, who is a Palestinian political science professor at 1695 01:38:08,200 --> 01:38:12,200 Speaker 6: n Nija National University in Nablus, he agreed with the 1696 01:38:12,280 --> 01:38:15,080 Speaker 6: lawyer's statement, and he said, the end game is to 1697 01:38:15,080 --> 01:38:18,600 Speaker 6: make Palestinians give up any hope of achieving self determination 1698 01:38:18,840 --> 01:38:22,360 Speaker 6: or being recognized as a people. Janine has a long 1699 01:38:22,479 --> 01:38:25,120 Speaker 6: history of resistance. It is a model for the masses 1700 01:38:25,160 --> 01:38:28,639 Speaker 6: that Israel wants to eliminate. But for Palestinians, the question 1701 01:38:28,840 --> 01:38:31,840 Speaker 6: is a matter of principle, and their endgame is to 1702 01:38:31,960 --> 01:38:36,240 Speaker 6: end this occupation. And essentially Israel intends to crush what 1703 01:38:36,280 --> 01:38:39,960 Speaker 6: I you refer to as quote the Janine phenomenon or 1704 01:38:40,000 --> 01:38:45,280 Speaker 6: any form of Palestinian resistance. Yeah, the Israeli aggression it 1705 01:38:45,360 --> 01:38:49,040 Speaker 6: raised fears of an escalation that continues to happen in 1706 01:38:49,120 --> 01:38:51,840 Speaker 6: areas such as the Kaza Strip because that's another symbolic 1707 01:38:52,439 --> 01:38:57,479 Speaker 6: place of resistance for Palestinians. And yeah, that's where we 1708 01:38:57,560 --> 01:38:58,759 Speaker 6: are now. 1709 01:39:00,040 --> 01:39:03,360 Speaker 2: Pretty much. It will I reach out to some people 1710 01:39:03,400 --> 01:39:06,519 Speaker 2: I know, but people generally don't like to be on 1711 01:39:06,560 --> 01:39:09,760 Speaker 2: their phones when this stuff is happening. So maybe I'll 1712 01:39:09,840 --> 01:39:11,640 Speaker 2: update you with some more information. 1713 01:39:12,200 --> 01:39:15,519 Speaker 6: Yeah, hopefully. I mean updates like this are always kind 1714 01:39:15,560 --> 01:39:20,400 Speaker 6: of like unfortunate because I don't think we want to 1715 01:39:20,479 --> 01:39:24,040 Speaker 6: update that more shitty things are happening, But especially with 1716 01:39:24,080 --> 01:39:28,400 Speaker 6: stuff like this, it doesn't seem like Israel is going 1717 01:39:28,400 --> 01:39:33,280 Speaker 6: to back down anytime soon. So yeah, that's that's the update. 1718 01:39:34,000 --> 01:39:37,400 Speaker 2: Okay. Yeah, so I wanted to talk about some of 1719 01:39:37,400 --> 01:39:39,479 Speaker 2: the people who were killed. One of the people who 1720 01:39:39,600 --> 01:39:44,559 Speaker 2: was killed was I'm dadf al Jas. He was forty eight. 1721 01:39:45,160 --> 01:39:48,280 Speaker 2: His son, aged twenty two, was killed in the Guinane 1722 01:39:48,280 --> 01:39:51,160 Speaker 2: massacare that occurred in January this year, so kind of 1723 01:39:51,160 --> 01:39:53,680 Speaker 2: gives you a sense of like the risk that I 1724 01:39:53,680 --> 01:39:57,559 Speaker 2: guess one incurs unwillingly by existing in what is a 1725 01:39:57,600 --> 01:40:02,360 Speaker 2: fucking refugee camp. His son wasn't the only young person killed. 1726 01:40:02,680 --> 01:40:07,479 Speaker 2: Another person who's killed was a Sadil Natcha Nachia. She 1727 01:40:07,600 --> 01:40:12,040 Speaker 2: was fifteen, and a few days later her classmates attended 1728 01:40:12,040 --> 01:40:15,840 Speaker 2: her funeral, all in their school uniforms. It's pretty sad. 1729 01:40:16,320 --> 01:40:18,160 Speaker 2: There are obviously images of it if you want to 1730 01:40:18,160 --> 01:40:19,800 Speaker 2: go look them up. But you can see lots of 1731 01:40:19,920 --> 01:40:23,880 Speaker 2: little school girls burying their friend in a town which 1732 01:40:23,960 --> 01:40:30,479 Speaker 2: is covered in burned detritus. No one should have to 1733 01:40:30,479 --> 01:40:32,920 Speaker 2: bury their kids. It's a torrible kid shouldn't have to 1734 01:40:32,960 --> 01:40:35,599 Speaker 2: deal with this shit. But there are plenty of pictures 1735 01:40:35,600 --> 01:40:40,680 Speaker 2: of little school girls standing by her grave. It's it's awful, 1736 01:40:41,000 --> 01:40:45,439 Speaker 2: so horrible. Yeah. The other victims were identified as Ahmed 1737 01:40:45,560 --> 01:40:54,000 Speaker 2: Saka Ahmed Da Rachma, Colored Dawish custom Pais Labusilia. They 1738 01:40:54,040 --> 01:40:59,280 Speaker 2: were fifteen, nineteen, twenty one, nineteen, and twenty nine respectively. 1739 01:41:00,560 --> 01:41:03,400 Speaker 2: They after this occurred, the aforementioned attack on settlers in 1740 01:41:03,439 --> 01:41:06,639 Speaker 2: Eli took place. Two gunman shown to a gas station 1741 01:41:06,720 --> 01:41:09,320 Speaker 2: or restaurant. One was killed on the scene and one 1742 01:41:09,360 --> 01:41:11,720 Speaker 2: was killed later. It was a response to the master 1743 01:41:11,840 --> 01:41:15,200 Speaker 2: attack on Tulmasya that occurred a few days before. And 1744 01:41:15,800 --> 01:41:18,960 Speaker 2: I want to highlight how the NYT covered this because 1745 01:41:19,000 --> 01:41:23,320 Speaker 2: I think it's important to dissect how Palestine is covered 1746 01:41:23,439 --> 01:41:26,240 Speaker 2: by the US right because obviously the US is one 1747 01:41:26,280 --> 01:41:30,599 Speaker 2: of the biggest state supporters of Israel, and specifically one 1748 01:41:30,680 --> 01:41:33,880 Speaker 2: of the people who continues to equip the IDF to 1749 01:41:33,920 --> 01:41:39,360 Speaker 2: do this stuff, so I'm quoting here directly. Last week, 1750 01:41:39,360 --> 01:41:42,479 Speaker 2: two Palestinians called for Israelis and injured four others near 1751 01:41:42,479 --> 01:41:46,479 Speaker 2: the Eli Settlement, escalating month long violence between Palestinians and 1752 01:41:46,520 --> 01:41:49,840 Speaker 2: Israelis in the West Bank. The next day, some four 1753 01:41:49,960 --> 01:41:54,400 Speaker 2: hundred settlers descended on several Palestinian villages, including tulmas Aya, 1754 01:41:54,840 --> 01:41:59,240 Speaker 2: a prosperous town near Romala, where reportedly they torched cars 1755 01:41:59,240 --> 01:42:02,840 Speaker 2: and homes. I want to I want to stop right there, 1756 01:42:02,840 --> 01:42:07,200 Speaker 2: because it is not reportedly right, Like we do not 1757 01:42:07,280 --> 01:42:09,960 Speaker 2: have to qualify this with like maybe or like we've 1758 01:42:10,000 --> 01:42:13,400 Speaker 2: just seen this on Twitter dot com. Like you could 1759 01:42:13,400 --> 01:42:16,400 Speaker 2: probably see this shit on Google maps, right, Like they 1760 01:42:16,479 --> 01:42:20,880 Speaker 2: torched a town. There's there's massive damage done. Even the 1761 01:42:20,920 --> 01:42:25,800 Speaker 2: New York Times itself didn't qualify it as a reported 1762 01:42:25,880 --> 01:42:31,519 Speaker 2: incident in its own reporting, and that this isn't we 1763 01:42:31,600 --> 01:42:35,920 Speaker 2: don't hear the same thing with the two Palestinian gunmen, right. 1764 01:42:36,800 --> 01:42:39,240 Speaker 2: Just to read the first opening sentence again, last week, 1765 01:42:39,240 --> 01:42:43,120 Speaker 2: two Palestinian carriers killed for Israelis. It's just stated as 1766 01:42:43,120 --> 01:42:49,520 Speaker 2: a fact, right, And these just within those couple of sentences, 1767 01:42:49,560 --> 01:42:52,559 Speaker 2: you can see so much of the bias in the 1768 01:42:52,600 --> 01:42:57,280 Speaker 2: way this is reported so much of the different perspectives 1769 01:42:57,320 --> 01:43:00,400 Speaker 2: through which state violence I would encourage you people not 1770 01:43:00,439 --> 01:43:03,840 Speaker 2: to use terrorism. I would encourage them to see things, 1771 01:43:03,920 --> 01:43:07,320 Speaker 2: especially in this context, in terms of political violence. Right, 1772 01:43:07,400 --> 01:43:09,840 Speaker 2: there is political violence done by both sides. One of 1773 01:43:09,880 --> 01:43:12,040 Speaker 2: those sides is a state actor, the other side is 1774 01:43:12,080 --> 01:43:15,519 Speaker 2: a non state actor. But qualifying one and making it 1775 01:43:15,680 --> 01:43:20,320 Speaker 2: distinct from the other, I think is shoddy journalism, and 1776 01:43:20,360 --> 01:43:22,799 Speaker 2: I don't think it really helps us understand this situation. 1777 01:43:24,400 --> 01:43:28,240 Speaker 2: So what happened, right Like, fifteen homes were burned, sixty 1778 01:43:28,320 --> 01:43:32,679 Speaker 2: vehicles were burned, and the writer's sort of quote unquote, 1779 01:43:32,680 --> 01:43:35,400 Speaker 2: sort of saying this is reportedly. It's not true. It's 1780 01:43:35,400 --> 01:43:38,559 Speaker 2: a thing that really happened. Another kind of phrasing that 1781 01:43:38,640 --> 01:43:43,439 Speaker 2: I've found really objectionable in this instance is clashes, right 1782 01:43:43,520 --> 01:43:48,639 Speaker 2: Like often you'll see clashes in Janine, and like that 1783 01:43:49,000 --> 01:43:52,920 Speaker 2: casts a lens of parity, or it looks at these 1784 01:43:52,920 --> 01:43:54,439 Speaker 2: things through a lens of parity, which I don't think 1785 01:43:54,560 --> 01:43:57,799 Speaker 2: is real on the ground. Like, it's not a clash 1786 01:43:57,840 --> 01:44:01,559 Speaker 2: when a helicopter is firing rockets, even if it's varying 1787 01:44:01,640 --> 01:44:05,559 Speaker 2: rockets at people with kalashnikovs, Right Like, that it's not 1788 01:44:05,600 --> 01:44:08,960 Speaker 2: a clash. There's not really a parody there, right, Like, 1789 01:44:09,120 --> 01:44:13,160 Speaker 2: and it's it also kind of downplaced the violence of 1790 01:44:13,200 --> 01:44:16,760 Speaker 2: what's happening, right, it's an attack, it's an assault. I 1791 01:44:16,800 --> 01:44:20,360 Speaker 2: think the constant use of clashes, right, it's nearly always. 1792 01:44:20,560 --> 01:44:23,240 Speaker 2: You don't really see it used anywhere else. If you 1793 01:44:23,360 --> 01:44:26,080 Speaker 2: if you do, it's for it's for much less severe violence, 1794 01:44:26,280 --> 01:44:29,599 Speaker 2: like like clashes between an arrival football fans, not that 1795 01:44:29,600 --> 01:44:32,960 Speaker 2: that can't be very violent, care, but you don't really 1796 01:44:33,040 --> 01:44:37,640 Speaker 2: see this word used to characterize like state violence on 1797 01:44:37,680 --> 01:44:42,280 Speaker 2: this scale anywhere else. And so I would really encourage 1798 01:44:42,320 --> 01:44:45,479 Speaker 2: people when they're reading, especially coverage of this, right, which 1799 01:44:45,520 --> 01:44:48,320 Speaker 2: is an issue that the US cannot get its head 1800 01:44:48,320 --> 01:44:51,720 Speaker 2: out of its ass about, uh, to look for this 1801 01:44:51,800 --> 01:44:55,160 Speaker 2: bias language. And if you're reading coverage or anything else, right, 1802 01:44:55,200 --> 01:44:57,040 Speaker 2: if you're if you're reading coverage something, and you start 1803 01:44:57,040 --> 01:44:59,720 Speaker 2: to notice that, like I would perhaps question where you're 1804 01:44:59,720 --> 01:45:02,120 Speaker 2: getting your coverage from. And I know you had some 1805 01:45:02,160 --> 01:45:04,000 Speaker 2: shit to say about the New York Times sharing. 1806 01:45:04,200 --> 01:45:07,280 Speaker 6: I mean, yeah, I one really liked what you said 1807 01:45:07,320 --> 01:45:11,080 Speaker 6: about referring to it as state violence versus terrorism, because 1808 01:45:11,080 --> 01:45:14,040 Speaker 6: I think that's a huge point that I also want 1809 01:45:14,080 --> 01:45:17,040 Speaker 6: to adopt because I didn't even really transfer that over 1810 01:45:17,160 --> 01:45:19,160 Speaker 6: until just now when you said it, and I think 1811 01:45:19,160 --> 01:45:21,599 Speaker 6: it's a really important distinction, So thank you for that. 1812 01:45:21,960 --> 01:45:24,880 Speaker 6: But yeah, the New York Times, as well as many, 1813 01:45:25,160 --> 01:45:28,760 Speaker 6: if not most news organizations, they're incredibly biased when it 1814 01:45:28,760 --> 01:45:31,519 Speaker 6: comes to Palestine. Is real reporting, and The New York 1815 01:45:31,560 --> 01:45:35,360 Speaker 6: Times in particular has been absolute dog shit and their 1816 01:45:35,360 --> 01:45:38,320 Speaker 6: coverage of Palestine for quite a while now. There has 1817 01:45:38,360 --> 01:45:40,800 Speaker 6: been a persistent pattern of bias when it comes to 1818 01:45:40,880 --> 01:45:44,240 Speaker 6: Israel and Palestine. I'm going to go in chronological order, 1819 01:45:44,280 --> 01:45:47,759 Speaker 6: and then James will jump back in with the recent 1820 01:45:47,840 --> 01:45:50,360 Speaker 6: article about the New York Times and this terrible thing 1821 01:45:50,400 --> 01:45:51,840 Speaker 6: that it has within it that I'm not going to 1822 01:45:51,880 --> 01:45:54,080 Speaker 6: give away right now. But let's go back in time 1823 01:45:54,160 --> 01:45:57,200 Speaker 6: to February twenty eleven, when The New York Times published 1824 01:45:57,240 --> 01:46:00,879 Speaker 6: a piece on JVP activism in the Bay Area. JVP 1825 01:46:01,080 --> 01:46:05,080 Speaker 6: stands for Jewish Voices for Peace, and this article said, 1826 01:46:05,280 --> 01:46:08,360 Speaker 6: the activists say they are not working against Israel, but 1827 01:46:08,400 --> 01:46:12,120 Speaker 6: against the Israeli government policies they believe are a discriminatory 1828 01:46:12,240 --> 01:46:16,040 Speaker 6: which is yes correct, But in the editor's note, the 1829 01:46:16,120 --> 01:46:19,440 Speaker 6: Times later wrote that one of the articles two authors 1830 01:46:19,560 --> 01:46:22,519 Speaker 6: was a pro Palestinian advocate and that he should not 1831 01:46:22,600 --> 01:46:25,200 Speaker 6: have written the article and should not have been allowed 1832 01:46:25,240 --> 01:46:29,839 Speaker 6: to write it. So it initially seems like good reporting 1833 01:46:29,880 --> 01:46:34,559 Speaker 6: because it's true you're protesting against the Israeli government. But 1834 01:46:34,600 --> 01:46:38,080 Speaker 6: then to say that a Palestinian advocate can't write it 1835 01:46:38,120 --> 01:46:41,800 Speaker 6: is ridiculous, So fuck you New York Times. And then 1836 01:46:41,880 --> 01:46:45,120 Speaker 6: in twenty fifteen, a study was done analyzing the New 1837 01:46:45,200 --> 01:46:48,800 Speaker 6: York Times publications during the period of September tenth and 1838 01:46:48,880 --> 01:46:52,400 Speaker 6: October fourteenth and twenty fifteen. At the time of the 1839 01:46:52,439 --> 01:46:56,759 Speaker 6: study in twenty fifteen, two thousand Palestinians had been injured 1840 01:46:56,800 --> 01:47:00,479 Speaker 6: while eighty three Israelis were injured, just for context of 1841 01:47:01,320 --> 01:47:05,360 Speaker 6: what the reporting was about, and the study analyzed thirty 1842 01:47:05,400 --> 01:47:08,400 Speaker 6: six articles. In these articles, the New York Times talked 1843 01:47:08,400 --> 01:47:12,599 Speaker 6: about Palestinian quote unquote violence thirty six times and Israeli 1844 01:47:12,680 --> 01:47:16,839 Speaker 6: violence two times. The word attack was used to describe 1845 01:47:16,880 --> 01:47:20,839 Speaker 6: Palestinian actions one hundred and ten times, in Israeli actions 1846 01:47:21,040 --> 01:47:25,160 Speaker 6: seventeen times. They use the word terrorist forty two times 1847 01:47:25,200 --> 01:47:29,200 Speaker 6: to refer to Palestinian violence and one time one time 1848 01:47:29,560 --> 01:47:33,160 Speaker 6: to refer to Israeli violence. More than half of the 1849 01:47:33,160 --> 01:47:36,880 Speaker 6: New York Times headlines during that whole year depicted Palestinians 1850 01:47:37,120 --> 01:47:43,200 Speaker 6: as the instigators of violence. Zero headlines depicted Israelis as aggressors. 1851 01:47:43,479 --> 01:47:46,840 Speaker 6: None and nothing has changed. I know that's from a 1852 01:47:46,880 --> 01:47:50,200 Speaker 6: period in twenty fifteen, but that's basically consistent, if not 1853 01:47:50,600 --> 01:47:51,479 Speaker 6: more so prevalent. 1854 01:47:51,560 --> 01:47:51,800 Speaker 3: Now. 1855 01:47:52,439 --> 01:47:54,759 Speaker 6: It just seems like the New York Times editorial board 1856 01:47:54,880 --> 01:47:59,599 Speaker 6: refuses to incorporate Palestinian perspective into its editorials, even though 1857 01:47:59,680 --> 01:48:02,160 Speaker 6: there have been many calls to do so, and this 1858 01:48:02,280 --> 01:48:05,639 Speaker 6: leads it to fundamentally misread the reality on the ground 1859 01:48:05,720 --> 01:48:08,840 Speaker 6: in Palestine. And it clearly shows the newspaper's bias when 1860 01:48:08,880 --> 01:48:11,840 Speaker 6: it comes to what it chooses to include about Palestine 1861 01:48:11,840 --> 01:48:14,880 Speaker 6: and from whom. Of the two thy four hundred and 1862 01:48:15,000 --> 01:48:18,000 Speaker 6: ninety opinion pieces about Palestinians with The New York Times 1863 01:48:18,080 --> 01:48:23,439 Speaker 6: published between nineteen seventy in twenty nineteen, only forty six 1864 01:48:24,000 --> 01:48:27,080 Speaker 6: written by actual Palestinians, which is an average of less 1865 01:48:27,120 --> 01:48:31,240 Speaker 6: than two percent. With the lack of Palestinian and Arab 1866 01:48:31,320 --> 01:48:34,080 Speaker 6: columnists that are even employed by New York Times, a 1867 01:48:34,200 --> 01:48:38,160 Speaker 6: kind of group think has inevitably emerged there, and this 1868 01:48:38,280 --> 01:48:43,160 Speaker 6: group think consistently places Israel, Israeli framings and Israeli perspectives 1869 01:48:43,200 --> 01:48:47,120 Speaker 6: above those of Palestinians. A keyword search of the Times 1870 01:48:47,240 --> 01:48:52,679 Speaker 6: editorials that discuss Palestinians is like this. Between nineteen seventy 1871 01:48:52,720 --> 01:48:56,280 Speaker 6: and twenty nineteen, the word piece appeared one thousand and 1872 01:48:56,280 --> 01:48:59,400 Speaker 6: one hundred and twelve times, but justice only appeared eighty 1873 01:48:59,400 --> 01:49:03,280 Speaker 6: six times. Terror was mentioned six hundred and forty nine times, 1874 01:49:03,479 --> 01:49:06,839 Speaker 6: but occupation was only mentioned two hundred and nineteen times, 1875 01:49:07,080 --> 01:49:09,439 Speaker 6: two hundred and nineteen times. I want to also remind 1876 01:49:09,479 --> 01:49:13,800 Speaker 6: you this is from starting from nineteen seventy. Israel's security 1877 01:49:14,080 --> 01:49:18,880 Speaker 6: quote unquote was written ninety times, but Palestinian freedom was 1878 01:49:18,960 --> 01:49:24,080 Speaker 6: mentioned just three times. While keyboard searches alone do not 1879 01:49:24,240 --> 01:49:26,519 Speaker 6: tell the whole story, they do help us get a 1880 01:49:26,560 --> 01:49:30,240 Speaker 6: sense of the overall tenor of the Times coverage, and 1881 01:49:30,320 --> 01:49:34,120 Speaker 6: over the last five decades, Israel has been unquestioningly presented 1882 01:49:34,160 --> 01:49:37,520 Speaker 6: by Times editors as a close ally, while the Palestinians 1883 01:49:37,520 --> 01:49:40,280 Speaker 6: have been consistently framed as a problem. 1884 01:49:41,400 --> 01:49:43,360 Speaker 2: So I want to talk about this. There was an 1885 01:49:43,400 --> 01:49:46,280 Speaker 2: excellent piece that came out in Study Hall. I believe 1886 01:49:46,320 --> 01:49:48,840 Speaker 2: it's based on some reporting in a Canadian outlet called 1887 01:49:48,880 --> 01:49:55,719 Speaker 2: Passage and Study Hall is a freelance journalists like group 1888 01:49:56,200 --> 01:50:00,120 Speaker 2: Localists serve, but they also do some editorial work. It's 1889 01:50:00,160 --> 01:50:03,840 Speaker 2: talking about this this Israeli nonprofit or it's really funded 1890 01:50:03,880 --> 01:50:07,760 Speaker 2: nonprofits based in the US and also in Israel called 1891 01:50:07,800 --> 01:50:10,280 Speaker 2: Honest Reporting. What it is is a five oh one c. 1892 01:50:10,479 --> 01:50:15,040 Speaker 2: Three And essentially what they've done is is what Sharene 1893 01:50:15,120 --> 01:50:20,439 Speaker 2: describes right where they've they've found not I believe, mostly 1894 01:50:20,479 --> 01:50:25,360 Speaker 2: Palestinian reporters, perhaps also non Palastinian reporters who are reporting 1895 01:50:25,400 --> 01:50:29,360 Speaker 2: from this. I guess from what I would described as 1896 01:50:29,360 --> 01:50:32,920 Speaker 2: the facts based approach to this, which is describing what's 1897 01:50:32,920 --> 01:50:39,600 Speaker 2: happening as an apartheid and they've dived into these people's background, 1898 01:50:39,720 --> 01:50:44,519 Speaker 2: their previous tweets, their previous writing, their other work to 1899 01:50:44,560 --> 01:50:48,200 Speaker 2: describe them as biased and get their articles taken down. 1900 01:50:48,479 --> 01:50:51,759 Speaker 2: They've done this to some very like this has happened 1901 01:50:51,760 --> 01:50:53,640 Speaker 2: at the time, and this is at a time, like 1902 01:50:54,560 --> 01:50:56,920 Speaker 2: I know Sharen mentioned something that happened in twenty eleven, 1903 01:50:57,000 --> 01:51:01,000 Speaker 2: but I know that in twenty ten the Jerusalem bureau 1904 01:51:01,080 --> 01:51:02,920 Speaker 2: chief of the Times had a child serving in the 1905 01:51:02,920 --> 01:51:08,160 Speaker 2: IDF Right. So like you know, if if I had 1906 01:51:08,200 --> 01:51:12,200 Speaker 2: a you know, if I was a journalist, and I said, yeah, 1907 01:51:12,200 --> 01:51:13,800 Speaker 2: you know, I actually have a son who's in the 1908 01:51:13,840 --> 01:51:16,280 Speaker 2: Aleaxa Martyrs Brigade. Like then they're not going to not 1909 01:51:16,280 --> 01:51:22,000 Speaker 2: going to commission my piece. But they've for instance, Hosam Salem. 1910 01:51:23,120 --> 01:51:24,559 Speaker 2: Have you seen Sam's work? 1911 01:51:25,320 --> 01:51:26,519 Speaker 3: I don't know. 1912 01:51:26,600 --> 01:51:27,719 Speaker 6: My brain doesn't create. 1913 01:51:28,040 --> 01:51:30,280 Speaker 2: I've worked with a sum before. It's a friend of mine. 1914 01:51:30,360 --> 01:51:33,680 Speaker 2: He's an incredibly gifted photojournalist. People should follow him on 1915 01:51:33,720 --> 01:51:37,080 Speaker 2: the places where they see photographs. He's blacklisted by The 1916 01:51:37,120 --> 01:51:40,559 Speaker 2: Times based on an honest reporting probe into his quote 1917 01:51:40,600 --> 01:51:46,040 Speaker 2: unquote bias, which his photos of Gaza are some of 1918 01:51:46,160 --> 01:51:50,120 Speaker 2: the most emotive photographs of Gaza I've ever seen. And 1919 01:51:50,320 --> 01:51:52,599 Speaker 2: I work with him on a piece that will one 1920 01:51:52,680 --> 01:51:56,519 Speaker 2: day become a podcast about Parkour in the Gaza Strip. 1921 01:51:56,880 --> 01:52:01,000 Speaker 2: But yeah, Hossam is a fantastic photo journal Listen absolutely 1922 01:52:01,280 --> 01:52:04,880 Speaker 2: like it is. It's utterly ridiculous to have like have 1923 01:52:05,000 --> 01:52:08,160 Speaker 2: him blacklisted by a major news organization, which, like, whether 1924 01:52:08,200 --> 01:52:11,200 Speaker 2: we like it or not, that is where a lot 1925 01:52:11,200 --> 01:52:14,920 Speaker 2: of Americans get their news. In one instance, this organization 1926 01:52:15,520 --> 01:52:18,559 Speaker 2: managed to get the Toronto Start to scrub all uses 1927 01:52:18,560 --> 01:52:24,599 Speaker 2: of Palestine from their stories to include shit like yeah, 1928 01:52:24,640 --> 01:52:26,600 Speaker 2: like the like they were profiling a DJ who was 1929 01:52:26,640 --> 01:52:33,240 Speaker 2: Palestinian and wow, which I think is like incredibly illustrative, 1930 01:52:33,320 --> 01:52:37,120 Speaker 2: right that, Like this is organization presents itself as fighting 1931 01:52:37,160 --> 01:52:40,280 Speaker 2: anti Israeli bias, which I'm sure that is a thing 1932 01:52:40,320 --> 01:52:44,000 Speaker 2: that exists. It fucking does not exist in the US media. 1933 01:52:44,600 --> 01:52:48,720 Speaker 2: Like I'm I'm not a Palestinian person, by speak as 1934 01:52:48,720 --> 01:52:52,639 Speaker 2: a person who has pitched articles about conflict in various 1935 01:52:52,680 --> 01:52:53,920 Speaker 2: parts of the world, and they can tell you that 1936 01:52:53,920 --> 01:52:55,920 Speaker 2: that that is not a bias that I have come across, 1937 01:52:55,920 --> 01:52:59,040 Speaker 2: having worked with almost every big outlet that it is 1938 01:52:59,080 --> 01:53:03,080 Speaker 2: possible to work for in the US. And it's not 1939 01:53:03,160 --> 01:53:07,120 Speaker 2: doing that. It's trying to raise Palestine and Palestinian people 1940 01:53:07,439 --> 01:53:10,320 Speaker 2: not only their perspectives but their whole existence. Right, And 1941 01:53:11,400 --> 01:53:13,599 Speaker 2: this is something that I hop on a lot, But like, 1942 01:53:13,640 --> 01:53:16,040 Speaker 2: I think we should do more conflict reporting that's about people, 1943 01:53:16,080 --> 01:53:18,720 Speaker 2: unless it is about numbers and battles and such like. 1944 01:53:18,880 --> 01:53:21,679 Speaker 2: That's why I want to write about little girls who's 1945 01:53:21,680 --> 01:53:25,559 Speaker 2: surfing Gaza and young men who do parkour, because like 1946 01:53:25,760 --> 01:53:31,559 Speaker 2: when Israel bombs Gaza, it doesn't just bomb people who 1947 01:53:31,600 --> 01:53:35,760 Speaker 2: are part of fatal or humas or whatever they want 1948 01:53:35,800 --> 01:53:41,280 Speaker 2: to say. They're targeting, right, like the lions den or genymbrias, 1949 01:53:41,320 --> 01:53:44,160 Speaker 2: whatever they're When they're bombing these places, they're also bombing children. 1950 01:53:44,640 --> 01:53:47,720 Speaker 2: They're also bombing places where little kids want to go 1951 01:53:47,760 --> 01:53:51,240 Speaker 2: and play football. They're bombing towns where little boys want 1952 01:53:51,280 --> 01:53:54,960 Speaker 2: to I mean the hospitals and schools, and yeah, like 1953 01:53:55,040 --> 01:53:57,720 Speaker 2: the this is where people just like you live. It's 1954 01:53:57,800 --> 01:54:02,360 Speaker 2: not like it's a very clear desire to kind of 1955 01:54:02,760 --> 01:54:05,840 Speaker 2: erase Palestinian civilians, I guess from my narrative, and it's 1956 01:54:05,880 --> 01:54:08,000 Speaker 2: really important that we as journalists and as people don't 1957 01:54:08,040 --> 01:54:10,200 Speaker 2: allow that to happen. I guess you can. We'll link 1958 01:54:10,240 --> 01:54:12,760 Speaker 2: to this in our sources at the end of the month, 1959 01:54:12,800 --> 01:54:14,400 Speaker 2: but I think it's an excellent piece. It's worth reading. 1960 01:54:15,240 --> 01:54:21,400 Speaker 6: Thank you parentialing that before we continue with some really 1961 01:54:21,439 --> 01:54:24,760 Speaker 6: excellent new things. Let's take our second break and we'll 1962 01:54:24,760 --> 01:54:25,400 Speaker 6: be right back. 1963 01:54:25,360 --> 01:54:30,200 Speaker 2: Yes, way back, And I want to talk a little 1964 01:54:30,240 --> 01:54:34,280 Speaker 2: bit more about h the I guess the Israeli political 1965 01:54:34,320 --> 01:54:38,600 Speaker 2: context behind the increasing aggression towards Janina and Palestini in general. 1966 01:54:39,240 --> 01:54:41,880 Speaker 2: So of the one hundred and sixty five Palestinian deaths. 1967 01:54:42,240 --> 01:54:43,960 Speaker 2: About eighty six are in the North and West Bank, 1968 01:54:44,120 --> 01:54:47,960 Speaker 2: mostly in the areas of Janine and Nublists, which cannot 1969 01:54:48,000 --> 01:54:49,800 Speaker 2: come incidainly are the areas where we're seeing new armed 1970 01:54:49,800 --> 01:54:53,560 Speaker 2: groups emerging. Despite this, Israel it's ready to massively step 1971 01:54:53,640 --> 01:54:56,320 Speaker 2: up settlement in the West Bank. Earlier in June, Prime 1972 01:54:56,360 --> 01:55:00,720 Speaker 2: Minister Benjamin then Yahoo ratified a policy allowing pro settler 1973 01:55:00,760 --> 01:55:05,480 Speaker 2: finance Minister that's Aleel Smotridge to bypass the six days 1974 01:55:05,480 --> 01:55:08,480 Speaker 2: process for building settlements, effectively giving him the ability to 1975 01:55:08,480 --> 01:55:11,800 Speaker 2: make settlement decisions on its own. In recent years, Israeli 1976 01:55:11,840 --> 01:55:14,640 Speaker 2: politicians as settlers have become more and more open about 1977 01:55:14,680 --> 01:55:17,520 Speaker 2: their goals annexing most, if not all, of the West Bank. 1978 01:55:18,320 --> 01:55:22,440 Speaker 2: So March of this year, Smartridge claimed that Palestinian people 1979 01:55:22,840 --> 01:55:27,120 Speaker 2: were an invention of the last century. It's probably worth 1980 01:55:27,120 --> 01:55:29,080 Speaker 2: taking a moment to point out that all national identities 1981 01:55:29,120 --> 01:55:32,680 Speaker 2: are inherently constructed. If humanity did not come to earth 1982 01:55:32,720 --> 01:55:36,120 Speaker 2: with flags, those are things that came to exist in 1983 01:55:36,160 --> 01:55:40,200 Speaker 2: the nineteenth and twentieth century. Like, so is Israel right, 1984 01:55:42,040 --> 01:55:43,800 Speaker 2: we can kind of put a date on that one. 1985 01:55:44,560 --> 01:55:45,920 Speaker 3: So that's just so that's. 1986 01:55:45,760 --> 01:55:49,480 Speaker 6: Like literally projecting an invention of the last century is 1987 01:55:49,560 --> 01:55:52,800 Speaker 6: literally Israel whatever, Yes, the state of Israel. 1988 01:55:52,880 --> 01:55:55,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean nations calling other nations constructed. Is the 1989 01:55:55,400 --> 01:55:58,600 Speaker 2: kind of the popcorn in the cow blackleg. Yeah, but 1990 01:55:59,640 --> 01:56:02,360 Speaker 2: in some much as if we're going to do that, 1991 01:56:02,400 --> 01:56:04,680 Speaker 2: I think is rarely throwing stones from a glasshouse. 1992 01:56:05,640 --> 01:56:06,360 Speaker 6: Yeah exactly. 1993 01:56:07,440 --> 01:56:10,200 Speaker 2: It's like it doesn't really fucking matter either, right, Like 1994 01:56:10,240 --> 01:56:12,640 Speaker 2: it doesn't matter how long the one group of people 1995 01:56:12,680 --> 01:56:17,280 Speaker 2: has had one flag, you still shouldn't fucking kill children, 1996 01:56:18,600 --> 01:56:21,360 Speaker 2: which applies to anyone involved in the killing of children. 1997 01:56:21,600 --> 01:56:24,120 Speaker 2: Smatrich said that there was no such thing as a 1998 01:56:24,120 --> 01:56:27,680 Speaker 2: Palestinian because there is no such thing as a Palestinian people. 1999 01:56:28,120 --> 01:56:30,680 Speaker 2: In a speech in Paris and a memorial for Jack Koppa, 2000 01:56:30,840 --> 01:56:34,280 Speaker 2: an Activisty's else right wing LIQUD party. Do you know 2001 01:56:34,320 --> 01:56:38,960 Speaker 2: who are the Palestinians? He said, I'm a Palestinian, going 2002 01:56:39,000 --> 01:56:42,000 Speaker 2: on to describe his late grandfather, who he said was 2003 01:56:42,080 --> 01:56:48,120 Speaker 2: a thirteenth generation Jerusalem might as a true Palestinian, which 2004 01:56:48,200 --> 01:56:51,560 Speaker 2: is somewhat Look, these people are supposed to be contradictory, 2005 01:56:51,600 --> 01:56:53,360 Speaker 2: Like it's not really worth sucking pointing this out, but 2006 01:56:53,400 --> 01:56:56,200 Speaker 2: like you can't simultaneously say there aren't a Palestinians. Palestine 2007 01:56:56,200 --> 01:57:01,520 Speaker 2: doesn't exist. Also, I'm a Palestinian, right, it is again 2008 01:57:01,720 --> 01:57:04,560 Speaker 2: not the point. I guess he was a resident. He 2009 01:57:04,600 --> 01:57:07,040 Speaker 2: is a resident one of the settlements himself. He's an 2010 01:57:07,040 --> 01:57:11,320 Speaker 2: advocate for theocratic law, the segregation of maternity wards. So 2011 01:57:11,600 --> 01:57:15,680 Speaker 2: he doesn't want Arab and Israeli women to give birth 2012 01:57:15,680 --> 01:57:19,800 Speaker 2: in the same ridiculous Yeah, it's his justification for it 2013 01:57:19,840 --> 01:57:22,200 Speaker 2: is like even worse, but I won't bother with that. 2014 01:57:22,800 --> 01:57:27,000 Speaker 2: He's also openly homophobic, and he supports the conspiracy theory 2015 01:57:27,000 --> 01:57:32,600 Speaker 2: that Jitzach Rabin was killed by Israel security agencies. All around. 2016 01:57:32,680 --> 01:57:37,440 Speaker 2: Top guy Benjamin and Yahoo's party likes to use names 2017 01:57:37,440 --> 01:57:39,400 Speaker 2: for the West Bank that you might find in the Bible, 2018 01:57:39,840 --> 01:57:42,480 Speaker 2: and it's made accelerating a legal settlement there a priority. 2019 01:57:42,920 --> 01:57:45,520 Speaker 2: Since it took office that Yahoos coalition has approved seven 2020 01:57:45,560 --> 01:57:48,640 Speaker 2: thousand new housing units, many in the occupied West Bank. 2021 01:57:49,400 --> 01:57:51,880 Speaker 2: The government also amended law to clear the way for 2022 01:57:51,920 --> 01:57:55,520 Speaker 2: settlers to return to four settlements that have previously been evacuated. 2023 01:57:56,000 --> 01:57:58,879 Speaker 2: Within a week of having power to make these decisions, 2024 01:57:58,960 --> 01:58:05,000 Speaker 2: smart Rich approved five thousand new units. We this is 2025 01:58:05,000 --> 01:58:07,480 Speaker 2: a great time to draw attention to one of the 2026 01:58:07,520 --> 01:58:12,880 Speaker 2: most fucking infuriating paragraphs that has ever been written, which 2027 01:58:12,960 --> 01:58:14,960 Speaker 2: I found in a New York Times article that. 2028 01:58:16,320 --> 01:58:18,320 Speaker 6: I can't believe this is real. James said it to 2029 01:58:18,360 --> 01:58:21,560 Speaker 6: me before this, and it is crazy. 2030 01:58:22,920 --> 01:58:24,680 Speaker 2: I like the century and stuff I know will make 2031 01:58:24,720 --> 01:58:28,280 Speaker 2: her angry. Of course, not all West Bank settlers are 2032 01:58:28,280 --> 01:58:30,400 Speaker 2: alter nationalists who believe that living in the land of 2033 01:58:30,440 --> 01:58:33,120 Speaker 2: the Bible is a religious edict. Most settlers, in fact, 2034 01:58:33,200 --> 01:58:36,480 Speaker 2: including hundreds of thousands of Altra Orthodox News, move there 2035 01:58:36,520 --> 01:58:40,800 Speaker 2: seeking a portable housing. I am fucking like I cannot 2036 01:58:41,000 --> 01:58:42,880 Speaker 2: real lost it when. 2037 01:58:42,760 --> 01:58:46,600 Speaker 6: I got here. Yeah, I checked out mentally. I catapopled 2038 01:58:46,680 --> 01:58:49,120 Speaker 6: myself into outer space. I don't want to be here anymore. 2039 01:58:49,520 --> 01:58:50,560 Speaker 6: That is ridiculous. 2040 01:58:50,840 --> 01:58:52,720 Speaker 2: I have decided to curl up into a ball and 2041 01:58:52,720 --> 01:58:55,920 Speaker 2: no longer exist. Like this is from the newspaper as well, 2042 01:58:55,960 --> 01:58:59,200 Speaker 2: that like went so fucking ham on people in twenty twenty, 2043 01:58:59,600 --> 01:59:03,960 Speaker 2: like taking milk from a target, you know, like when 2044 01:59:04,000 --> 01:59:07,080 Speaker 2: you like seeking affordable dairy products. I guess could have 2045 01:59:07,080 --> 01:59:09,080 Speaker 2: been an alternative frameing of that that they didn't. They 2046 01:59:09,080 --> 01:59:12,400 Speaker 2: didn't go for it. It just fucking unbelievable, like the 2047 01:59:12,920 --> 01:59:15,640 Speaker 2: like the shit that free economics has done to people's brains. 2048 01:59:16,640 --> 01:59:20,160 Speaker 2: Is it's really next level. But more people listen to 2049 01:59:20,200 --> 01:59:22,440 Speaker 2: our podcasts in their podcast because we're winning in the 2050 01:59:22,480 --> 01:59:27,840 Speaker 2: marketplace of ideas and so all in seven hundred and 2051 01:59:27,840 --> 01:59:31,440 Speaker 2: fifty thousand people live in these settlements. But being a 2052 01:59:31,520 --> 01:59:34,160 Speaker 2: legal under international law doesn't really mean anything unless that 2053 01:59:34,240 --> 01:59:37,040 Speaker 2: law is enforced. And it really is. We spoke earlier 2054 01:59:37,040 --> 01:59:40,000 Speaker 2: this before, right, just like the US, which frequently violates 2055 01:59:40,000 --> 01:59:42,800 Speaker 2: Domexican international law on its own border, Israel is simply 2056 01:59:42,800 --> 01:59:45,680 Speaker 2: not held to account for its crimes. United Nations Special 2057 01:59:45,720 --> 01:59:50,880 Speaker 2: Reporteur and Palestine Francisco Albernesi told Al Jazeera international law 2058 01:59:50,920 --> 01:59:54,160 Speaker 2: has a quote unquote problem of enforcement. There is a 2059 01:59:54,200 --> 01:59:57,720 Speaker 2: problem of double standards because clearly when it comes to Palestine, 2060 01:59:57,880 --> 02:00:00,600 Speaker 2: there is a cognitive dissonance, especially among West countries and 2061 02:00:00,640 --> 02:00:03,800 Speaker 2: reticents in applying these coercive measures and all the prohibitions 2062 02:00:03,880 --> 02:00:06,120 Speaker 2: international law of thoughts are Benici said. 2063 02:00:06,480 --> 02:00:10,040 Speaker 6: Yeah, we already mentioned how just even the phrase international law, 2064 02:00:11,240 --> 02:00:15,360 Speaker 6: it's just make believe like you always hear about Israel, 2065 02:00:17,040 --> 02:00:19,960 Speaker 6: even like committing crimes against humanity, None of that even 2066 02:00:20,080 --> 02:00:23,760 Speaker 6: seems to matter when it comes to Israel. Because there's 2067 02:00:23,760 --> 02:00:25,120 Speaker 6: never a repercussion. 2068 02:00:25,200 --> 02:00:28,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, it doesn't matter anywhere that there's no direct interest 2069 02:00:28,560 --> 02:00:31,240 Speaker 2: to capital to enforcing that law. Right, it doesn't matter 2070 02:00:31,280 --> 02:00:34,680 Speaker 2: when young women in mem are get raped by soldiers. 2071 02:00:34,720 --> 02:00:37,280 Speaker 2: It doesn't matter when villages get burned down there, It 2072 02:00:37,320 --> 02:00:41,240 Speaker 2: doesn't matter in to grie in Ethiopia and Eritrea because 2073 02:00:41,240 --> 02:00:45,480 Speaker 2: there's no interest to finance capital of solving that problem. 2074 02:00:45,560 --> 02:00:50,720 Speaker 2: It's not just a Palestine thing. It's the thing all 2075 02:00:50,720 --> 02:00:56,040 Speaker 2: over the world. And laws are fundamentally backed up by violence. Right, 2076 02:00:56,080 --> 02:00:58,680 Speaker 2: Like in America, if you get a parking ticket and 2077 02:00:58,680 --> 02:01:00,400 Speaker 2: you don't pay your parking ticket and you go to court, 2078 02:01:00,440 --> 02:01:02,000 Speaker 2: and you don't go to court, eventually someone with a 2079 02:01:02,000 --> 02:01:05,080 Speaker 2: gun will come and kick down your door. And like 2080 02:01:05,560 --> 02:01:09,800 Speaker 2: all laws are based in violence. And there ain't no 2081 02:01:09,840 --> 02:01:12,440 Speaker 2: one kicking down Israel's door, right, and no one will. 2082 02:01:13,040 --> 02:01:16,080 Speaker 2: And so it doesn't matter. International law doesn't matter. It's 2083 02:01:17,040 --> 02:01:18,920 Speaker 2: it's nice and it's there. We can point to it 2084 02:01:18,960 --> 02:01:20,800 Speaker 2: and say, look, we've all agreed this is bad, but 2085 02:01:20,840 --> 02:01:22,640 Speaker 2: we all know it's bad. That we don't really need 2086 02:01:22,680 --> 02:01:25,040 Speaker 2: a bunch of like old men suits to tell us 2087 02:01:25,040 --> 02:01:26,760 Speaker 2: it's bad. We knew it was bad. What we needed 2088 02:01:26,760 --> 02:01:29,720 Speaker 2: to fucking make it stop, and that's not happening. 2089 02:01:30,200 --> 02:01:34,360 Speaker 6: Yeah. I think it's also interesting to mention that internationally, 2090 02:01:35,080 --> 02:01:38,800 Speaker 6: even when you get better quote unquote reporting about Palestine, 2091 02:01:38,840 --> 02:01:42,240 Speaker 6: it still is not enough because it's usually about peace 2092 02:01:42,480 --> 02:01:45,840 Speaker 6: and both sides or a conflict or whatever. So I 2093 02:01:45,880 --> 02:01:48,720 Speaker 6: just think, I mean that also goes back to news 2094 02:01:48,960 --> 02:01:52,960 Speaker 6: and how it's reported. But this stubborn insistence on blaming 2095 02:01:53,000 --> 02:01:57,000 Speaker 6: both sides is reflective of a deeply flawed quote unquote 2096 02:01:57,040 --> 02:02:00,520 Speaker 6: peace framework, and it has dominated the international under standing 2097 02:02:00,560 --> 02:02:04,840 Speaker 6: of the Israel Palestine quote unquote conflict for decades. The 2098 02:02:04,880 --> 02:02:08,600 Speaker 6: framework of peace centers on identity politics and ignores the 2099 02:02:08,640 --> 02:02:12,920 Speaker 6: structural violence that the state perpetuates against oppressed groups and 2100 02:02:13,080 --> 02:02:17,120 Speaker 6: instead focuses on acts of spectacular violence committed by those 2101 02:02:17,120 --> 02:02:20,480 Speaker 6: groups in response to the oppression they face. And it 2102 02:02:20,520 --> 02:02:24,080 Speaker 6: also blames them for escalating conflict and then uses it 2103 02:02:24,120 --> 02:02:28,400 Speaker 6: to justify the repressive violence by the more powerful forces. 2104 02:02:30,080 --> 02:02:32,560 Speaker 6: To go back to New York Times briefly, many of 2105 02:02:32,600 --> 02:02:35,840 Speaker 6: the Time's editorials over the last thirty years since the 2106 02:02:35,920 --> 02:02:39,520 Speaker 6: advent of the Oslo Accords have been steeped in the 2107 02:02:39,560 --> 02:02:44,200 Speaker 6: peace framework. They treat israelis a Palestinians as having equal 2108 02:02:44,280 --> 02:02:48,520 Speaker 6: power when they clearly don't. They praise Israel for minor 2109 02:02:48,560 --> 02:02:52,680 Speaker 6: adjustments to its daily structural violence against Palestinians, but in 2110 02:02:52,760 --> 02:02:56,520 Speaker 6: the same breath they scold Palestinian leaders and society for 2111 02:02:56,600 --> 02:03:00,680 Speaker 6: acts of violence done in turn. And the word is 2112 02:03:00,720 --> 02:03:04,400 Speaker 6: also problematic in and of itself, because Palestine isn't some 2113 02:03:04,560 --> 02:03:07,760 Speaker 6: conflict or problem for Israel to sort out. It's a 2114 02:03:07,800 --> 02:03:10,800 Speaker 6: cause for everyone to fight for. Since nineteen forty eight, 2115 02:03:10,880 --> 02:03:14,120 Speaker 6: the Israeli state has prevented Palestinians from living in their 2116 02:03:14,120 --> 02:03:18,320 Speaker 6: homeland with freedom and dignity, whether it's by banning refugees 2117 02:03:18,360 --> 02:03:22,080 Speaker 6: from returning to their homes, or discriminating against Palestinian citizens 2118 02:03:22,160 --> 02:03:26,560 Speaker 6: inside Israel, or keeping millions of Palestinians under military occupation. 2119 02:03:27,320 --> 02:03:30,160 Speaker 6: If there is a problem to be solved, that problem 2120 02:03:30,240 --> 02:03:37,560 Speaker 6: is the regime itself. But this fact of bias and 2121 02:03:37,920 --> 02:03:41,360 Speaker 6: shitty reporting, and the fact that the truth is not 2122 02:03:41,440 --> 02:03:43,880 Speaker 6: out of there, that fact seems to have eluded the 2123 02:03:43,960 --> 02:03:49,200 Speaker 6: Times editorial board because, rather than recognize the systemic violence, discrimination, 2124 02:03:49,600 --> 02:03:54,160 Speaker 6: and colonization perpetuated by Israel against Palestinians, the board blames 2125 02:03:54,280 --> 02:03:59,200 Speaker 6: quote unquote both sides for a vastly asymmetric situation. This 2126 02:03:59,360 --> 02:04:03,080 Speaker 6: both sides may give the appearance of balance, but it 2127 02:04:03,120 --> 02:04:06,879 Speaker 6: does not reflect the reality in which Israel holds almost 2128 02:04:06,880 --> 02:04:11,040 Speaker 6: total political, economic, and military power over the lives of 2129 02:04:11,120 --> 02:04:15,560 Speaker 6: every Palestinian in a system that growing numbers of scholars, 2130 02:04:15,800 --> 02:04:19,920 Speaker 6: human rights groups, and legal experts are defining as apartheid. 2131 02:04:20,720 --> 02:04:23,919 Speaker 6: But I do hope some of this was at least helpful, 2132 02:04:24,240 --> 02:04:28,200 Speaker 6: and I mean probably be back to do the same 2133 02:04:28,280 --> 02:04:31,360 Speaker 6: kind of thing soon because Israel is relentless and stupid 2134 02:04:31,520 --> 02:04:36,919 Speaker 6: and I hate it. So until then, fuck the IDF 2135 02:04:36,920 --> 02:04:38,240 Speaker 6: and have a nice day. 2136 02:04:40,880 --> 02:04:44,040 Speaker 1: Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week 2137 02:04:44,120 --> 02:04:46,000 Speaker 1: from now until the heat death of the universe. 2138 02:04:46,600 --> 02:04:49,120 Speaker 6: It Could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 2139 02:04:49,200 --> 02:04:51,879 Speaker 6: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 2140 02:04:51,880 --> 02:04:55,000 Speaker 6: coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 2141 02:04:55,040 --> 02:04:58,200 Speaker 6: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 2142 02:04:58,240 --> 02:05:00,520 Speaker 6: find sources for It Could Happen Here updates and monthly 2143 02:05:00,800 --> 02:05:04,200 Speaker 6: at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.