Speaker 1: The volume.
Speaker 2: Well, hi everybody, welcome back, good thirty thirty five minute
Speaker 2: podcast today with former NFL scout John Middlecoff, one of
Speaker 2: the first members ever of the volume. We got some
Speaker 2: great news coming up for the volume, so proud of
Speaker 2: this media digital podcast company. We'll get to that in
Speaker 2: the next couple of weeks. I just got back from
Speaker 2: a vacation which was five days with friends on a
Speaker 2: boat in British Columbia. A little wetter than I wanted,
Speaker 2: but it is an absolutely stunning part of North America.
Speaker 2: In fact, I think it's the most beautiful part of
Speaker 2: North America I've ever ventured into, from the waterfalls, kayaking,
Speaker 2: the landscape, good meals, early cocktails. So it's great to
Speaker 2: be back. The Herd Podcast, brought to you by Netflix.
Speaker 2: Let's start with the story of the day Joe Burrow
Speaker 2: pulled up rolling out right non contact injury at Cincinnati
Speaker 2: Bengals camp today and the result is talk about a
Speaker 2: thank God, a calf injury, a calf strain. So Joe
Speaker 2: Burrow and I now have one thing in common in
Speaker 2: our life. Two I was a quarterback awful he's a
Speaker 2: great one, and we both had a calf strain briefly painful,
Speaker 2: more annoying. The biggest concern with calf strains is often
Speaker 2: you think it's solved, you think it's healed, you rush back.
Speaker 2: But I think it happens. I don't know if dehydration
Speaker 2: is a part of it, but in the Midwest and
Speaker 2: during training camps, it is unbelievably hot, and we know
Speaker 2: what's going on with climate change in America. This is
Speaker 2: the hottest summer on record in the history of our country.
Speaker 2: The good news is a calf strain keeps you mostly
Speaker 2: out of camp, doesn't keep you out of games. It
Speaker 2: would have not only changed the Bengals, but the division,
Speaker 2: the conference in the National Football League. Burrow, who we
Speaker 2: had on this podcast network last year as a guest
Speaker 2: for about fifteen sixteen podcast interviews. Coming out of college,
Speaker 2: I thought he was going to be a better version
Speaker 2: of Tony Romo. Good arm, not great, good mobility, not
Speaker 2: a blazer, a gamer, throw a few picks, but willing
Speaker 2: to throw it into tight windows. He is a better
Speaker 2: version of Tony Romo, much better. But Romo was always
Speaker 2: underappreciated because he's a cowboy quarterback. We tend to beat
Speaker 2: up on cowboy quarterbacks more than any other franchise what
Speaker 2: Burrows really become and he's done it without camps. Remember
Speaker 2: the pandemic was his first camp. Then he had an injury,
Speaker 2: then there was appendectomy surgery, so he missed last year's camp.
Speaker 2: Now he's going to miss this year's camp. So he's
Speaker 2: never really had a full camp in four years in
Speaker 2: the NFL. Nonetheless, I think what he's become is, along
Speaker 2: with Patrick Mahomes, the best situational quarterback in the league
Speaker 2: is that. I think Josh Allen's bigger, stronger, with a
Speaker 2: better arm, and more mobile, a better athlete, but in
Speaker 2: situational football, Josh can uncork some wild throws. I don't
Speaker 2: trust Josh Allen as much in those key moments in
Speaker 2: a football game. And I think that's really what has
Speaker 2: separated Mahomes from everybody else. It's not just the talent,
Speaker 2: it's the ability in big spot trailing late, everybody knows
Speaker 2: you're throwing to throw pinpoint balls into tight spaces, be
Speaker 2: it Travis Kelcey for Mahomes or Jamar Chase t Higgins
Speaker 2: or Boyd for the Bengals. So Joe Burrow is going
Speaker 2: to be fine. I was talking about this to day
Speaker 2: at FS one, We're really lucky right now. There's obviously
Speaker 2: enormous wealth and attention and fame heaped on young athletes
Speaker 2: and all sports, but we don't have a single quarterback
Speaker 2: right now. I'm talking the big namers, the stars, the
Speaker 2: franchise guys, Lamar, Jalen, Mahomes, Burrow, Herbert, Trevor Lawrence. We
Speaker 2: don't have a pain in the ass. We got very
Speaker 2: nice guys leaders often dads as coaches or a strong
Speaker 2: guidance in their family. We got quality guy. He's running
Speaker 2: these franchises that are mature beyond their years. I mean,
Speaker 2: it's pretty legendary that Justin Herbert is constantly seeking ways
Speaker 2: to avoid the media as he gets into Chargers practice,
Speaker 2: Burrows the same way we had him on fifteen podcasts.
Speaker 2: He wasn't scripted, but you could tell he was the
Speaker 2: son of a coach, never got in the way of himself,
Speaker 2: never took any bait if he thought it was a
Speaker 2: question that would get him in trouble. So it's a
Speaker 2: sigh of relief. He is one of the absolute faces
Speaker 2: of the league. Joe Cool and it's a CAF strain
Speaker 2: which are painful briefly, and then you tend to think
Speaker 2: you're through him before you are, so sometimes you rush back,
Speaker 2: but he'll be fine. The other quarterback story of note
Speaker 2: while I was gone was Aaron Rodgers taking a thirty
Speaker 2: five million dollar haircut for the New York Jets over
Speaker 2: the next two years. You know, I've always questioned, not
Speaker 2: necessarily Aaron Rodgers' commitment, because nobody gives back thirty five million.
Speaker 2: Owners don't, that's for sure. But the questions I always
Speaker 2: had about Aaron Rodgers were not about his talent, his intellect,
Speaker 2: or his commitment. The truth was Green Bay doesn't have
Speaker 2: an owner. There's nobody to really stand in front of
Speaker 2: you and call you out. You're the most powerful person
Speaker 2: only in the town, the organization, the state in Milwaukee.
Speaker 2: I call it the Green Bay quarterback syndrome. They both
Speaker 2: became the same guy, kind of threatening retirement, frustrated with
Speaker 2: a franchise, not getting free agents, not having an owner
Speaker 2: that can go out, take a big swing and get
Speaker 2: you a guy like Stan Cronkey can do for the Rams,
Speaker 2: or David Tepper could do for the Carolina Panthers. That's
Speaker 2: the downside not having an owner. Sometimes you got a
Speaker 2: call a guy. He's on the tarmac and his private jet,
Speaker 2: his golfstream and he goes and gets Matt Stafford. That's
Speaker 2: how it happened with the Rams. So I think for
Speaker 2: both Brett Farv and Aaron Rodgers, they got tired of
Speaker 2: Green Bay. It's not that they were too big for
Speaker 2: the room. But it's a unique environment being a superstar
Speaker 2: quarterback on a franchise in the smallest town in American sports,
Speaker 2: with no owner, that can't acquire free agents on a
Speaker 2: regular basis. So I think New York's a better fit
Speaker 2: form actually right now. And he looks at himself, he
Speaker 2: looks at his weaknesses and says, I got to be
Speaker 2: more engaged with young guys. I got to stop talking
Speaker 2: about retirement. And I can't be paralyzed if I'm not
Speaker 2: the highest paid quarterback or second highest paid quarterback in
Speaker 2: the league. The data is clear. If you're a top
Speaker 2: two or three paid quarterback, Mahomes now is about seventh
Speaker 2: that puts you in line to win a Super Bowl
Speaker 2: about seventh. If you're a top two paid quarterback in
Speaker 2: this league, you will have to sacrifice somewhere a good
Speaker 2: tight end, a second elite corner another good interior defensive lineman.
Speaker 2: Your franchise will have to make sacrifices somewhere.
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Speaker 2: I started my show today talking about Sean Payton. You
Speaker 2: know this as a former NFL scout under Andy Reid
Speaker 2: with the Philadelphia Eagles is that you don't generally in
Speaker 2: any industry call people out right, Like there's an unspoken
Speaker 2: sort of rule in the NFL you don't call people out.
Speaker 2: How shocked were you that Peyton said that's one of
Speaker 2: the worst coaching jobs ever. He took a shot at
Speaker 2: the GM. Who's still in the building. Were you surprised
Speaker 2: by it?
Speaker 1: Yeah? To me, that's the biggest headline. I was actually
Speaker 1: assuming that they might have a GM turnover after the
Speaker 1: draft and Peyton survived. You know, when you factor in
Speaker 1: how much money they gave Sean, I would say it
Speaker 1: would be shocking if it was if it was Andy
Speaker 1: Reid or Bill Belichick, I would say, when you look
Speaker 1: at Sean Payton's history, he's a parcels guy.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: Back in the day, coaches, I would say, like in
Speaker 1: the nineties in the eighties, much more open to rip
Speaker 1: a player or fellow coach, you know, an opposing coach publicly.
Speaker 1: I remember as a kid, Phil Jackson growing up in
Speaker 1: the northern California area used to talk shit about Sacramento
Speaker 1: when the Lakers and Kings were going at it. But
Speaker 1: I would say, yeah, the social media aid and just
Speaker 1: a lot of coaches is not necessarily their personality. It
Speaker 1: is Shan's. The other thing is Colin It's. It is
Speaker 1: objectively one of the worst coaching jobs. I would say
Speaker 1: we've seen two of them the last couple of years, right,
Speaker 1: Urban Meyer and Nathaniel Hackett. They literally did not finish
Speaker 1: one season. We've seen a lot of one and done coaches.
Speaker 1: They were fired before the season ended in year one.
Speaker 1: I mean, it was all time disaster. Now Urban little
Speaker 1: more unique, had a long resume of success while at college.
Speaker 1: Hackett clearly, I think, and now you see in New
Speaker 1: York was hired for one specific player and then that
Speaker 1: player decided to sign with Green Bay, and then they
Speaker 1: went with their second option. They were able to get
Speaker 1: it to go. But remember when they hired the guy
Speaker 1: to help them with the clock, like twenty four hours
Speaker 1: into his tenure.
Speaker 2: Like Freddy Kitchen, Steve Wilkes. I think what you're seeing
Speaker 2: is now And I would just theorize that it used
Speaker 2: to be that an NFL owner had a net worth
Speaker 2: of forty million dollar, of four hundred million dollars maybe
Speaker 2: eight hundred million. Well, now when it's nine billion or
Speaker 2: eleven billion writing off of a coaching mistake is a
Speaker 2: rounding air. It just doesn't matter anymore. You can write
Speaker 2: off a forty million dollar check. And I also think,
Speaker 2: and so you're seeing more of that. Coaches just say
Speaker 2: I'm just I'm not going to do year two. So
Speaker 2: the other thing that's happened is the league is now
Speaker 2: so defined by the quality of your quarterback. Is that
Speaker 2: if Brian Flores has a relationship issue with Tua, you're out.
Speaker 2: People can't you can't have it. So I mean, if
Speaker 2: Belichick did not have his legacy, that Matt Patricia move
Speaker 2: would get him fired. So we're seeing we're seeing wealthier owners. Also,
Speaker 2: that wealth creates a belief that I'm worth this much money.
Speaker 2: You need to win immediately. That's why when Dion Sanders
Speaker 2: flushes out Colors program, he's not stupid. Dion realizes if
Speaker 2: he doesn't win by year or two, he's gone. You
Speaker 2: got to get guys out now. And it's not the
Speaker 2: most graceful way to do it, but kind of there's
Speaker 2: the door, see your way out. And I think in
Speaker 2: the NFL, like when Sean Payton calls out that team,
Speaker 2: what he's doing is he is sending a message to
Speaker 2: the locker room it wasn't Russell's fault. He's still our guy.
Speaker 2: And the second thing is he's letting everybody in the
Speaker 2: building know because remember what he did when he first
Speaker 2: got there, John, he changed lunch, he changed you know,
Speaker 2: team lunch got changed. He wouldn't let certain people into
Speaker 2: certain areas that Nathaniel Hackett did so, and I'm sure
Speaker 2: some of them grumbled. And so now he's reinforcing his
Speaker 2: theory or his system on this. You can't hang out
Speaker 2: with the players, you can't have your kids around the building,
Speaker 2: no interns in meeting rooms. So he's reinforcing it over
Speaker 2: and over. That was a disaster. We're doing the opposite
Speaker 2: of that. So I think sometimes, you know, he's a
Speaker 2: I've had dinner with him before, I've had coffies with him.
Speaker 2: Sean is very comfortable with the truth and confrontation, and
Speaker 2: not everybody is. So I think it's just his way
Speaker 2: of verbally cleaning out the room, starting over, nuking the
Speaker 2: old culture.
Speaker 1: Well, the other thing is, obviously he got paid a
Speaker 1: lot of money, you know, eighteen million dollars or whatever.
Speaker 1: He was already really rich, So he did not take
Speaker 1: this job because he needed the money. He take this
Speaker 1: job because he wants to have success. And like you
Speaker 1: said on the flip side, with these owners, even Mark
Speaker 1: Davis and Mike Brown have money now, but this family
Speaker 1: has an unlimited amount of money. And if you do,
Speaker 1: if he does not win quickly, like within the first
Speaker 1: three years, if he's not making the playoffs, they will
Speaker 1: just move on, you know. So it's like, and what's
Speaker 1: he going to do? Get a third job? You know,
Speaker 1: this could be it. This is an awesome opportunity. He
Speaker 1: knows it. They got some talent. It's to me, it's
Speaker 1: a little bit of a throwback to the guy that
Speaker 1: taught him is Parcel. This is a Parceales type move.
Speaker 1: We just don't see it that often anymore, right, And
Speaker 1: part of it is the best coach in the league.
Speaker 1: And I'd even say the younger guys McVay, Kyle, they
Speaker 1: wouldn't do this, but Sean is not cut from that cloth.
Speaker 1: So I thoroughly enjoyed it. I wish we had more
Speaker 1: of it, Colin.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's I'm never going to complain when people give
Speaker 2: me content. I mean, it was funny having twenty different
Speaker 2: visits with Sean Payton, great storyteller, love loves to tell
Speaker 2: him and he's great at it. And I remember telling
Speaker 2: the staff I'm like, and our bosses at Fox, I'm like,
Speaker 2: he's going too fast upstairs to sit in the sidelines
Speaker 2: like he you can take a year or two off,
Speaker 2: but tech and pro football in this country, like they
Speaker 2: change every two years, like something's changing, rules are changing,
Speaker 2: a sensibility, a culture. Sean was just too smart, too current,
Speaker 2: too competitive to sit in the sidelines for years. Remember
Speaker 2: Parceles did broadcasting for a brief stint, then he went
Speaker 2: off to coaching again. Some people like Bill Kauer, they
Speaker 2: almost pivot to a different lifestyle. Like Sean. Shawn's got
Speaker 2: one speed. It's zero to sixty. I don't care if
Speaker 2: he's golfing, dinner, having a bottle of wine. He's competing
Speaker 2: the story talent. He's into it. So I and I.
Speaker 2: You know, Denver is one of those I've said before,
Speaker 2: it's the Steelers with mountains. It's like Pittsburgh. For most
Speaker 2: of my life, Denver's been well owned, well run, unbelievable
Speaker 2: loyal fan base, great local marketing. It's really been a
Speaker 2: very stable organization since like the seventies. I remember the
Speaker 2: Orange Crush defense in Craig Morton, but you know, they
Speaker 2: went through a post Lway kind of a whole. But
Speaker 2: I always feel like Denver for pro athletes is a
Speaker 2: really good free agent market. Peyton Manning moved there. I
Speaker 2: mean he grew up in the South, Peyton Manning moved
Speaker 2: his family in his business operations the Denver a suburb.
Speaker 2: I think you can get a roll in there pretty quick.
Speaker 2: I just have a hard time believing Geno Smith is
Speaker 2: now better than Russell Wilson. I'm just not gonna believe that.
Speaker 2: I think Russell bounces back and Geno Smith probably a
Speaker 2: little bit pulls back and we get a truer picture
Speaker 2: of what that trade's about.
Speaker 1: Well, that's one of those, you know, just the in
Speaker 1: a vacuum, Gino Smith. A lot of guys later on
Speaker 1: in their career and any sport can have a bounce
Speaker 1: back year or can have a one off year where
Speaker 1: you go, see, this is what the guy could have done. Well,
Speaker 1: then do they sustain that for five years? Like rich
Speaker 1: Gannon resurrected his career with the Raiders and had an
Speaker 1: awesome stretch. Most guys have the one off season and
Speaker 1: then kind of you know, resort back to what they
Speaker 1: maybe a better version of what they were, no longer
Speaker 1: a backup. But is he gonna throw thirty touchdowns every
Speaker 1: season for the next three seasons and we're going to
Speaker 1: look up he threw one hundred touchdowns over however, you know,
Speaker 1: fifty games, probably not right. And that's another team. A
Speaker 1: lot of teams, you know, Denver needed a shake up,
Speaker 1: They needed a Bill Parcell come in and just rattle
Speaker 1: some cages. Then there are the teams like the Giants
Speaker 1: in Seattle, which got to Lions a little bit last year,
Speaker 1: got to really sneak up on people. The Chiefs have.
Speaker 1: Everyone's been coming at them for five years and they
Speaker 1: hit right back, no problem. Belichick inviety for twenty years.
Speaker 1: It'll be interesting how some of these teams, especially in
Speaker 1: the NFC, which we all kind of agree is not great.
Speaker 1: Is Seattle's just a lock to win ten games? Drafted
Speaker 1: pretty good, but like the quarterback, he's just gonna sustain
Speaker 1: the Giants a lot of pressure. Now a lot of
Speaker 1: guys getting paid. Is our team really that talented? Do
Speaker 1: they benefit from winning some of those close games? Coaches good,
Speaker 1: but it's a lot more difficult to just win on
Speaker 1: a yearly basis when you do not have Joe Burrow,
Speaker 1: Josh Allen, Patrick Mahomes. I mean, you got to be
Speaker 1: good in a lot of different phases. What makes the
Speaker 1: Niners they've been pretty lucky because they haven't had to
Speaker 1: pay a big time court. They're elite at all these positions,
Speaker 1: so they can kind of overcome it, right, But it's
Speaker 1: if you do not have a star quarterback, you usually
Speaker 1: don't just rattle off double digit wins every single season.
Speaker 2: Was interesting when Peyton took a shot at Nathaniel Hackett
Speaker 2: that Robert Sala actually went out and responded to it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and you know Sala, he's just this good looking alpha,
Speaker 2: kind of a movie star, kind of a tough guy.
Speaker 2: And he responds like he he likes the microphone. He's
Speaker 2: not shy. I don't know if that's he's very much
Speaker 2: a modern coach. He's very much a defensive coach like Tomlin,
Speaker 2: Pete Carroll, Robert Sala emotional like they're they're they emote
Speaker 2: and they're not afraid to tell you what they think.
Speaker 2: I think sometimes offensive coaches can be a tad more calculated,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, in the off season, In
Speaker 2: the season a little more calculated game playing. You know,
Speaker 2: offense is a lot about hiding what you're doing. Defense
Speaker 2: is manhood, alpha, blowing stuff up, getting in your face.
Speaker 2: Here we come, this is what we this is what
Speaker 2: we do. Solid firing back at Peyton because they play
Speaker 2: each other in like week five, Did that surprise you? No?
Speaker 1: Because I do think you have to stick up for
Speaker 1: your guy, and they're kind of the up and coming team. He's,
Speaker 1: like you said, a swagger guy. I had someone in
Speaker 1: that organization though that tells that told me last year,
Speaker 1: or maybe even before the season started, they were really
Speaker 1: impressed with when things were going shitty, how well he acted,
Speaker 1: you know, pretty even keel in the building, you know,
Speaker 1: on a weekly basis when times were tough. But I
Speaker 1: think when you make a trade like this, there's just
Speaker 1: a lot of tangible pressure. One thing with the Jets,
Speaker 1: they got a lot going on, right, You have cameras there,
Speaker 1: you got people talking about them. They're in you could argue,
Speaker 1: on paper the best division in football. You have a
Speaker 1: coach in GM at this season, let's say they went
Speaker 1: seven games, like, are they gonna? Would they get fired?
Speaker 1: It's pretty hot in there, given what they just invested
Speaker 1: in Aaron Rodgers, though I do think the Aaron Rodgers
Speaker 1: it was almost like Aaron kind of forced his way there.
Speaker 1: Then he did like a three month onboarding process where
Speaker 1: he interviewed them, right, he was kind of feeling them out,
Speaker 1: seeing it, and then he came away impressed to do
Speaker 1: that contract renegotiation. So to me, that's a pretty big
Speaker 1: win for the organization. It makes them look like he
Speaker 1: views them as competent. Now, ultimately, you've got to get
Speaker 1: it done come Sunday. But I understand why Robert Sla
Speaker 1: went to that, but he also said that we didn't
Speaker 1: hire Nate Hackett because of Aaron Rodgers.
Speaker 2: Like bullshit.
Speaker 1: You know, Date Hackett now has been hired, and I
Speaker 1: don't know the guy UC Davis guy I grew up
Speaker 1: in Davis. I root for him, but let's be real.
Speaker 1: He's gotten his last two jobs. A big reason is
Speaker 1: because of Aaron Rodgers. And there's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 1: I mean, being good friends, right Lebron James or Steph
Speaker 1: Curry or Aaron Rodgers is pretty good professional move if
Speaker 1: you're a coach, right the you.
Speaker 2: Know, I thought it was not just a shave, It
Speaker 2: was almost a realignment of priorities. When Aaron took a
Speaker 2: thirty one million dollar pay cut, like not a lot
Speaker 2: of owners are doing that. I did think, and it
Speaker 2: makes sense. Data tell you can't be the highest paid,
Speaker 2: second highest paid quarterback in the league. You're not gonna
Speaker 2: win Super Bowls. Mahomes is now close to seventh, I think,
Speaker 2: or something thereabouts. I've moved a bunch in my career,
Speaker 2: and every time I move, I try to assess what
Speaker 2: I was bad at. You know, was I too reckless here?
Speaker 2: Was I a good teammate there? And I thought, you know,
Speaker 2: every stop, I've tried to get better at something I
Speaker 2: was not very good at. And you know, if this
Speaker 2: is my last stop, this is what I am. But
Speaker 2: I do think when you move, you kind of look
Speaker 2: in the rear view mirror and you go, all right,
Speaker 2: let's get better at stuff. Some out of your control,
Speaker 2: some very much in your control. So I do think
Speaker 2: that it feels like Rogers, he's not talking about retirement.
Speaker 2: It's more about commitment, much more connected to young players
Speaker 2: in camp. And the truth is, like I always felt
Speaker 2: like in Green Bay, like how much he made mattered,
Speaker 2: Like it felt like it was a thing. Now and
Speaker 2: you know New York, he's going to get taxed to
Speaker 2: a much higher level. So it's not just a thirty
Speaker 2: one million dollar tax or a thirty one million dollar
Speaker 2: pay cut. He's losing a lot of money. Smart move,
Speaker 2: unique move. What did you make of it?
Speaker 1: Well, I think he deserves credit from the sense that
Speaker 1: we can We talk a lot about men maturing right
Speaker 1: in our twenties, we grow a lot. I've grown a
Speaker 1: lot personally in my thirties, and you know, these last
Speaker 1: couple of years, it felt like, God, this is getting
Speaker 1: a little weird. And he kind of feels like a
Speaker 1: different guy right now when I watched this press conference yesterday,
Speaker 1: just different vibes than he had. And it might have
Speaker 1: just been, like you said, you're in a place things
Speaker 1: aren't going well, self created. That wasn't all Green Bay's fault,
Speaker 1: but it was just time for a divorce. And then
Speaker 1: he comes here. He has a lot on the line.
Speaker 1: You know, legacy why sometimes is stupid, but he wants
Speaker 1: to be considered because really, his contemporaries right in the
Speaker 1: last fifteen twenty years are Brady and Manning. He's never
Speaker 1: gonna kept Tom. But like he goes to a new place.
Speaker 1: Peyton went to Denver, resurrected him and got him to
Speaker 1: multiple Super Bowls in one to one and we view
Speaker 1: Peyton even in a higher regard than we already did,
Speaker 1: and we held him pretty high. Can you imagine if
Speaker 1: he just goes Joe Montana and makes like the Chiefs
Speaker 1: immediately good like he goes to the Jets and they're
Speaker 1: just AFC Championship Game, super Bowl. Even if he doesn't
Speaker 1: win a super Bowl, it'd be a big, big moment
Speaker 1: for him because he would get more credit than Sala
Speaker 1: or Joe Douglas or the Johnson family. He has a
Speaker 1: lot on the line here. And I back to what
Speaker 1: I said about his onboarding process. I think he's seen
Speaker 1: they have a lot of talent. He likes the vibe,
Speaker 1: I think New York Whatever's fitness personality in this thirty
Speaker 1: nine year old version of Rogers, and he knows like
Speaker 1: a short, short lived time like more often than the not,
Speaker 1: he's or he's not going to play the forty five.
Speaker 1: So really it's probably the next forty eight year, you know,
Speaker 1: two years maybe three, but retired the retirement conversation. He's
Speaker 1: all in on these couple of years and just knows
Speaker 1: that for him personally, you can look at it being
Speaker 1: a little selfish even though he's doing the right thing.
Speaker 1: He could really really change the perception of the way
Speaker 1: we discuss him.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I also think, and Mahomes gets this, is
Speaker 2: that if you're a top ten quarterback ever, and if
Speaker 2: he went to New York and had great success, he
Speaker 2: probably he squeezes into that top ten ever because I
Speaker 2: think that you know that top ten comes down to
Speaker 2: Super Bowls production. I mean, some old guys are in it,
Speaker 2: Bradshaw because of the Super Bowls, but it's a different time.
Speaker 2: Montana's obviously in it, Brady's in it, Peyton, Manning's in it, Elway,
Speaker 2: Marino Breeze. It's a crowded space. Mahomes is now absolutely
Speaker 2: in it.
Speaker 1: For sure.
Speaker 2: It's getting to be a crowded space if you're a
Speaker 2: top ten quarterback ever, And I think Mahomes sees this.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of money post football. There's a lot
Speaker 2: of fame. I mean, Farre's career is not I mean,
Speaker 2: Brett's a bit of a punch line. Things have gotten
Speaker 2: ugly in Mississippi regarding some charity and his involvement, like
Speaker 2: it didn't end well. There was the controversy with the
Speaker 2: Jets of that terrible interception. As a member of the
Speaker 2: Vikings in his last couple of years in Green Bay,
Speaker 2: he was difficult. Like I look at how and I
Speaker 2: think about this all the time in my career. It's
Speaker 2: hard to end. Like Johnny Carson last week on the air,
Speaker 2: You're great, last great show. Bye, I'm going to play tennis.
Speaker 2: That is so rare. It's like it's choppy for everybody.
Speaker 2: It was choppy for Michael Jordan, it's choppy for Tiger Now.
Speaker 2: I do think Aaron three years in New York, a
Speaker 2: couple of AFC Championship appearances, win or lose, I think
Speaker 2: we look at him different. I think it keeps him
Speaker 2: in the top ten all time. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I remember texting with Richard Sherman when he was on
Speaker 1: the forty nine ers, and he remember he played a
Speaker 1: role in negotiating the latest CBA and there were so
Speaker 1: many areas with the owners were fighting, And one thing
Speaker 1: I remember him telling me is you don't really make
Speaker 1: any money for playoff games, right, Everyone on the team
Speaker 1: in a playoff game, Drew Brees or Tom Brady makes
Speaker 1: the same as the fifty third guy. I was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's kind of crazy when you think about it, but
Speaker 1: if you have success in the playoffs. Travis Kelsey talked
Speaker 1: about this a couple of weeks ago, saying he was underpaid.
Speaker 1: His marketability the rest of his life has changed because
Speaker 1: we view him as a winner, as a great player.
Speaker 1: Look at Draymond right, could have got more money, knows
Speaker 1: where his bread's buttered, and he, for the rest of
Speaker 1: his life will be viewed as one of the great winners.
Speaker 1: And that's how we talk about these sports. James Harden
Speaker 1: is going to have all this money, but once his
Speaker 1: career is over, no one's going to care. Not a soul, right,
Speaker 1: So he Darryl Morriy. So Aaron does this. He did
Speaker 1: everything he could possibly do in Green Bay, and it
Speaker 1: was clearly going down the wrong road. I think it
Speaker 1: would be disproportionate how much credit he'll get if let's
Speaker 1: just say this year they are in the AFC Championship
Speaker 1: game relative to the coordinator, relative to the head coach,
Speaker 1: relative to anyone in that organization. Besides maybe like a
Speaker 1: Garrett Wilson, if he becomes a star, Aaron will get
Speaker 1: of the pipe chart. I would say like eighty five percent,
Speaker 1: especially now with the pay cut. And I also think
Speaker 1: pay cuts I heard you talking on your show earlier today.
Speaker 1: I don't care how rich a guy is. It's rare
Speaker 1: to just most humans do not give money back. But
Speaker 1: you're talking a level like Aaron's worth hundreds of millions
Speaker 1: of dollars just on the field, let alone what he's
Speaker 1: made off the field. It's not ultimately as crazy to
Speaker 1: his lifestyle. But I do think it sets the tone
Speaker 1: in the organization. It really is a Tom Brady like
Speaker 1: MoU It's something Tom would have done. Tom did it right,
Speaker 1: and I think it kind of sets the tone for
Speaker 1: the organization. It makes it Robert solids job easier, especially
Speaker 1: if they can coach him hard. If he's being more
Speaker 1: relatable to younger players, like you said, which has been
Speaker 1: something that's been a bugaboo in Green Bay. He just
Speaker 1: wouldn't work with him. It was nowhere to be found.
Speaker 1: He was around in the off season. He can say
Speaker 1: it's overrated all he wants, but it clearly matters.
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Speaker 2: So I wanted to talk briefly because you and I
Speaker 2: grew up with a lot of Pac twelve football. Colorado
Speaker 2: announced they'll be leaving in twoenty twenty four, back to
Speaker 2: the Big twelve. USC and UCLA are leaving the conference.
Speaker 2: The PAC twelve is eroding quickly. The Big twelve currently
Speaker 2: has a better TV deal than the Big PAC twelve does,
Speaker 2: and that's a big part of it. You get guaranteed payouts.
Speaker 2: I thought the misstep by the PAC twelve still searching
Speaker 2: for a partner. I thought the real misstep. If I
Speaker 2: would have been the PAC twelve commissioner a year ago,
Speaker 2: I would have gone to Apple and said, listen, we
Speaker 2: know if we put them on as streaming service, we're
Speaker 2: not going to have the size of audience. But we
Speaker 2: have so many of our graduates at our school Stanford, Washington,
Speaker 2: cal USC UCLA, so many Apple employees probably went to
Speaker 2: PACK twelve schools. We feel like you represent our values
Speaker 2: and our vision. I would have gone to Apple and said,
Speaker 2: you know, we'll sign a contract with you. We can
Speaker 2: still have games Notre Dame, USC, Washington, Michigan, Oregon, Oklahoma.
Speaker 2: We can still play games out of conference for schools
Speaker 2: to make money aligning with other big name schools. But
Speaker 2: I would have gone because I think Apples a progressive company.
Speaker 2: I think the PAC twelve's always been sort of a
Speaker 2: leader in offenses. Chip Kelly's sort of changed the way
Speaker 2: offenses maneuvered in college, briefly in pro but back to college,
Speaker 2: and I think they got a little precious. And I
Speaker 2: told my PAC twelve friends this for years. There's too
Speaker 2: much to do in Seattle there's too much to do
Speaker 2: in the fall in Los Angeles, in San Francisco and Phoenix.
Speaker 2: We're not Starksville, Mississippi. We're not Lubbock, Texas. We're not
Speaker 2: you know, Madison, Wisconsin, which is a fun city.
Speaker 1: Athens, Georgia. I mean, you can name off all of
Speaker 1: that time.
Speaker 2: We have pro sports in a lot of our Pac
Speaker 2: twelve cities. We have perfect summer and fall weather. The
Speaker 2: bottom line is our stadiums aren't full. We don't care
Speaker 2: as much, and that's okay. We could have taken advantage
Speaker 2: of the one thing the West has the Midwest and
Speaker 2: South doesn't. Tech juggernauts and I would have aligned myself
Speaker 2: as a commissioner with an Apple and just said, we
Speaker 2: don't care if we get lost in streaming. Your vision
Speaker 2: is how we view US academic progressive, sort of left leaning.
Speaker 2: They didn't do it. They've been a little finicky, and
Speaker 2: I think they're in danger of the conference dissolving. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think it's and I think it unofficially died years ago.
Speaker 1: The West Coast college football has never had anything in
Speaker 1: common with the SEC. Stanford, for that, Harbaugh and then
Speaker 1: into David Shaw was constantly a top eight program in
Speaker 1: the country. I mean sometimes top three or four, and
Speaker 1: they'd get struggled to get ten thousand people. And you
Speaker 1: can't be like, well, no one in northern cares. No
Speaker 1: one in Northern California cares about football. The forty nine
Speaker 1: was one of the biggest brands, you know, so people
Speaker 1: love football in California pro football. But I think three,
Speaker 1: four or five years ago under Larry Scott, it just
Speaker 1: felt like they didn't care. Now Oregon cared, usc in
Speaker 1: theory cared, some of the programs carred, but as a whole,
Speaker 1: as a partnership, it never felt like the Big ten,
Speaker 1: which I would say academically is pretty forward thing. I mean,
Speaker 1: they got powerhouse programs.
Speaker 2: Michigan has a great academics conference.
Speaker 1: It never felt like sports wasn't a major priority as
Speaker 1: a whole, right, and they and they just kept they
Speaker 1: viewed themselves as an equal to the SEC, even at
Speaker 1: times when they weren't. And they thought like that in
Speaker 1: the Pac twelve under Larry and it's not all his fault.
Speaker 1: The presidents just did not and they got lapped. And
Speaker 1: now Lewis Hamilton is not in there, they can't catch up.
Speaker 1: There's too much money, that everything's changed. You could all
Speaker 1: argue Colorado whatever, go back to the Big twelve, like
Speaker 1: that's not the end of the world. But the moment
Speaker 1: usc and it wasn't just that day they left. Clearly
Speaker 1: they had realized this is not going to work. What
Speaker 1: does Oregon and Washington do though, because you know, Oregon
Speaker 1: truly cares. They just gave their coach a raise, which
Speaker 1: I would imagine part of that is like, hey man,
Speaker 1: we would stay here for a little bit, We'll figure
Speaker 1: this out. Is it inevitable that because my theory is
Speaker 1: that we're just going to head to AFC, NFC, Big ten,
Speaker 1: SEC some semblance of that, where it's just basically two
Speaker 1: huge conferences and then they both meet up in the
Speaker 1: playoffs twelve fourteen teams or whatever like the NFL. It
Speaker 1: feels like where we're headed. I know the Big twelve
Speaker 1: is creating this, but don't they end up just bleeding
Speaker 1: with some of the top ACC teams? Is the major
Speaker 1: Power five is just in two separate conferences all most
Speaker 1: like the National Football League.
Speaker 2: Well, I think Washington and Oregon could eventually be invited
Speaker 2: to the Big Ten. They will not get a full
Speaker 2: television share they'll probably get half a share, which is
Speaker 2: still more than the PAC twelve would have paid them.
Speaker 2: I think they want in now, and I think the
Speaker 2: Big ten is weighing the options. And do they need
Speaker 2: Washington and Oregon. They're not vibrant recruiting areas. Seattle's a
Speaker 2: big market, Oregon's got great branding. I think Washington and
Speaker 2: Oregon do have large loyal followings. They sell out their
Speaker 2: home games. Both have been in national championship games Huskies
Speaker 2: have won, so I think they have value.
Speaker 1: Both are really good right now, you know, top fifteen
Speaker 1: twenty programs.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's a bummer, but you know, for years
Speaker 2: and years when I my loyalty to the West Coast,
Speaker 2: I've told my friends, guys, I've been to SEC stadiums,
Speaker 2: I've been to the Big ten. There's less to do
Speaker 2: in those small geographical footprints. And I'm sorry Madison, Wisconsin
Speaker 2: and ann Arbor, Michigan and Columbus Ohio. They care more
Speaker 2: than San Francisco in LA What do you want me
Speaker 2: to say? They simply care more. And when USC and
Speaker 2: UCLA jettison the PAC twelve after this year to go
Speaker 2: to the Big Ten, I remember talking to former athletic
Speaker 2: director Mike Bonnet USC, and he asked me a couple
Speaker 2: of years ago. He said, you know, it was right
Speaker 2: after they hired Lincoln Riley, right after And I said,
Speaker 2: you know, and before the Big Ten pivot. I said,
Speaker 2: if I was you, I would figure out a way
Speaker 2: to get these Michigans and these Iowa's and these Nebraskas
Speaker 2: and these penn States to do home and homes. I
Speaker 2: don't care if I lose some of these games. Those
Speaker 2: Midwest fans in October, they'll make the trek out here.
Speaker 2: And then I swear to God. A month later, you know,
Speaker 2: they moved, they pivoted to the Big Ten. But I
Speaker 2: think both USC and UCLA, I don't think the weather's
Speaker 2: that big of a deal. They got four home games
Speaker 2: because they play each other to end the season. It'll
Speaker 2: be fine, you know, USC and ucll going the road
Speaker 2: four times. You know, most of those late September, October,
Speaker 2: early November. There won't be blizzards. But I think USC
Speaker 2: had been thinking about it for years. They were really frustrated.
Speaker 2: They considered going independent, kind of doing a Notre Dame
Speaker 2: a BYU for years. So I think some things are inevitable.
Speaker 2: And I think the PAC twelve in that ultra competitive,
Speaker 2: sort of big ten sec world, I think it was
Speaker 2: inevitable the PAC twelve was gonna shrink exactly.
Speaker 1: Maybe Col's destined to play UC Davis and Weaber State
Speaker 1: and Oregon State and Washington State are destined to play
Speaker 1: Fresno State, San Diego State and Boise State. That's tries.
Speaker 1: Over time, things change, the cream rises, and everyone else
Speaker 1: finds their niche. And that's Boise State has been very
Speaker 1: successful for twenty years not being a power five. So
Speaker 1: it's not like Washington State or Oregon State are just
Speaker 1: going to disappear. Cal potentially could, and maybe they just
Speaker 1: don't care that much, because I'd say they really don't.
Speaker 2: John middle Off three and Out and Go Lo Golf podcast,
Speaker 2: former scout with the Eagles under Andy Reid as always
Speaker 2: my friend.
Speaker 1: This was fun, Colin. You look good, you look refreshed.
Speaker 1: I saw you taking some cold plunges there in.
Speaker 2: British Columbia and they were cold.
Speaker 1: I look cold. The volume