Speaker 1: Welcomed. Unobscured, a production of I Heart Radio and Aaron Minky.
Speaker 1: Our guest today is historian Margaret Washington. She's professor of
Speaker 1: History and American Studies at Cornell University. Her work on
Speaker 1: the cultural, intellectual, and religious history of Black Americans has
Speaker 1: earned her awards and fellowships from Cornell University, Wesleyan University,
Speaker 1: and the National Endowment for the Humanities. Besides speaking at
Speaker 1: high school, summer institutes, museums, parks, and local libraries, Dr
Speaker 1: Washington has contributed to numerous documentaries for PBS, the Discovery Channel,
Speaker 1: and the History Channel. Her book Sojourner Truths America was
Speaker 1: a guide for us not only in following Sojourner truth story,
Speaker 1: but in seeing spiritualism within the big picture of American life.
Speaker 1: Researcher Karl Nellis talked with Dr Washington for this season
Speaker 1: of Unobscured. They began their conversation with her perspective on
Speaker 1: what it meant to be a spiritualist in nineteenth century America. Guy,
Speaker 1: this is the Unobscured interview series for season two. I'm
Speaker 1: Aaron Manky. If you were spiritualist in the nineteenth century,
Speaker 1: you looked upon life after death as a continuation of
Speaker 1: contact with humans, especially your loved ones. It was a
Speaker 1: situation where your contact with people who had passed beyond
Speaker 1: the veil could be instructive, it could be warnings. But
Speaker 1: there was this contact with people who had gone on.
Speaker 1: It wasn't a break with earth life and then life
Speaker 1: in the beyond. So the first important aspect of spiritualism
Speaker 1: was this contact between humans who had been left two
Speaker 1: mourn and people who had passed on into the spirit world.
Speaker 1: Sometimes those contacts were loving, sometimes they were foreboding. But
Speaker 1: the most important thing is that there was this contact,
Speaker 1: and it took all kinds of forms depending on who
Speaker 1: the person was or people you were maintaining your contact
Speaker 1: with who had passed on. When people were coming to
Speaker 1: a seance, they weren't a medium, say, but they wanted
Speaker 1: to take part in the spiritualist practices. What kinds of
Speaker 1: things were they looking for? What kind of variety or
Speaker 1: there was there In motivations to attend to seance, everyone
Speaker 1: had different motivations. Some people went for curiosity, other people
Speaker 1: went for a specific goal. There was someone in particular
Speaker 1: whom they wanted to have contact with, and so they
Speaker 1: were hoping that the medium could channel that individual who
Speaker 1: had passed on into some kind of consciousness so that
Speaker 1: the living person could communicate with them. And that was
Speaker 1: what the majority of people wanted. They wanted contact with,
Speaker 1: mostly a loved one, but sometimes it wasn't even a
Speaker 1: loved one, it was politician. A lot of spiritualists, especially
Speaker 1: the more radical ones, for example, had seances in which
Speaker 1: John Quincy Adams, who in the Late Antebellum era which
Speaker 1: ends in eighteen sixty one, John Quincy Adams was sort
Speaker 1: of the champion from a political perspective of abolitionism, so
Speaker 1: when he died a lot of spiritualists would recall him
Speaker 1: and get his advice on what was happening in the
Speaker 1: world politically. So when you think about it like that,
Speaker 1: spiritualism is not so much about faith as it is
Speaker 1: about politics. But those were the kinds of positions that
Speaker 1: people took. And even with Abraham Lincoln, after he passed away,
Speaker 1: people channeled him. Then the radical, the white radical John Brown,
Speaker 1: the person who inspired Harper's Ferry, was also channeled after
Speaker 1: he was executed. So it took a lot of forms.
Speaker 1: So that's interesting. When spiritualists were channeling these kinds of
Speaker 1: these statesmen political figures. What does that tell us about
Speaker 1: the way that spiritualists related to the past or to history. Well,
Speaker 1: spiritualists were radicals. They were people aside from their faiths,
Speaker 1: and in many cases, I think this is important. In
Speaker 1: many cases, even though they were I don't want to
Speaker 1: call them religious because they sort of avoided doctrine, but
Speaker 1: they were very spiritually oriented. He Even though that was
Speaker 1: the case, many of them were not affiliated with any
Speaker 1: particular church because they felt the churches were corrupt and
Speaker 1: the churches promoted evil practices such as the practice of slavery.
Speaker 1: So a lot of people did not see spiritualism specifically
Speaker 1: as something that was associated with their faith as much
Speaker 1: as it was associated with social life. One of the
Speaker 1: most important aspects of having a successful social life was
Speaker 1: to have free will. For example, if you were enslaved,
Speaker 1: you had no free will. You didn't have the free
Speaker 1: will to go to church, and you didn't have the
Speaker 1: free will to raise your own children. You didn't have
Speaker 1: the free will to be with a husband. Indeed, you
Speaker 1: didn't have the free will to have a legal husband
Speaker 1: or wife. These were the kinds of issues that spiritualism opposed.
Speaker 1: With the churches. I guess you would say they were
Speaker 1: not religious people, even though they were very upright people
Speaker 1: and very spiritual people. One of the movements that kind
Speaker 1: of seated the ground for spiritualism was kind of a
Speaker 1: utopian or a collectivist impulse among many of these radicals
Speaker 1: to for model communities or kind of sanctuary communities over
Speaker 1: the course of her life. So journal is involved in Northampton, Hopedale,
Speaker 1: and there are others fruit Lands, the United Community, brook Farm.
Speaker 1: Could you talk a little bit about what was going
Speaker 1: on with these utopian or communalists kind of impulses that
Speaker 1: were bringing people to these places. There were I think
Speaker 1: a myriad of differences between the utopian communities. Not all
Speaker 1: of them were spiritualists. Fruit Lands, the one that was
Speaker 1: founded by Bronson Alcott was not spiritualist, the Shaker communities were,
Speaker 1: and the ones that Sojourn or Truth became involved in
Speaker 1: were except as you mentioned. You mentioned Northampton, but Northampton
Speaker 1: had many spiritualists in it, but it was not a
Speaker 1: spiritualist community. It was more of a I guess you'd
Speaker 1: say it was basically an abolitionist commune, is what it was.
Speaker 1: One of the things that united these utopian communities was
Speaker 1: a belief in the power of spiritualism, even if they
Speaker 1: weren't founded for that particular purpose. The Sojourner when she
Speaker 1: went to Northampton, she found a home for her spiritualism there,
Speaker 1: even though it was an abolitionist community. When she moved
Speaker 1: to Michigan, and I believe it was eighteen fifty seven,
Speaker 1: she actually settled in a spiritualist community. And so there
Speaker 1: were spiritualist community especially in the West or what we
Speaker 1: call today the Midwest. At that point she did want
Speaker 1: the spiritual connection in terms of her daily life. So Harmonia,
Speaker 1: which was outside of Battle Creek, Michigan, was spiritualist community.
Speaker 1: They all weren't founded on the basis of spiritualism, but
Speaker 1: they all embraced the ideas of spiritual contact with the
Speaker 1: other world. At that point in the eighteen forties and
Speaker 1: fifties were pretty well into Sojourner's life. Um, let's go
Speaker 1: back to the beginning with her. She's she's not born Surjourner.
Speaker 1: Truth of course, taking on both parts of that name
Speaker 1: is really significant to her life story. But let's start
Speaker 1: at the beginning. She was born into slavery in New
Speaker 1: York before the nineteenth century downed. So she's a generation
Speaker 1: or two older than many of the other women that
Speaker 1: were going to be following for this series talking about spiritualism,
Speaker 1: the Fox Sisters corp A hatched Victoria wood Hall and
Speaker 1: of Britain. How was the New York of her childhood
Speaker 1: different from the New York of the eighteen forties and fifties,
Speaker 1: she would say, And actually she did say that when
Speaker 1: she was born, there were no ships, there were no steamboats.
Speaker 1: It was a whole different world. She pointed out in
Speaker 1: her talks in the eighteen forties and fifties that she
Speaker 1: was now living in what she called the modern world,
Speaker 1: but she had been born and raised in a world
Speaker 1: that in many ways was not even connected to what
Speaker 1: she considered modernity in the anti Bellum era. So it
Speaker 1: was very backward in a lot of ways. So during
Speaker 1: the truth grew up not wearing shoes. You can imagine
Speaker 1: living in rural Hudson Valley, New York in the wintertime
Speaker 1: and not having shoes. But that was the fate of
Speaker 1: the enslaved African Dutch people where she grew up, and
Speaker 1: that was pretty much her fate until she became a
Speaker 1: Christian and obtained her freedom. She was born in seventeen nine,
Speaker 1: so basically she's kind of an eighteenth century woman in
Speaker 1: that sense, and so that makes her quite different from
Speaker 1: the people who were going to become her comrades in
Speaker 1: the movements that she became involved in. Also, I it's
Speaker 1: important to note that her background is Dutch as opposed
Speaker 1: to English. That made a difference. At that point, there
Speaker 1: weren't that many Dutch. Most of the Dutch were centered
Speaker 1: in New York in the Hudson Valley, but it was
Speaker 1: a group of people. It was an ethnicity that they
Speaker 1: kept to themselves, and um they spoke Dutch. She spoke
Speaker 1: Dutch until she was in her late twenties, and it
Speaker 1: was quite a different culture. She was not given religious
Speaker 1: instruction as a child or even as a young woman,
Speaker 1: so she didn't have the religious background that a lot
Speaker 1: of African Americans, even enslaved ones who had English mistresses
Speaker 1: and masters, had, So in some ways that made her
Speaker 1: kind of like a vessel for Christianity. But on the
Speaker 1: other hand, it gave her a kind of a circumspection
Speaker 1: about accepting everything, and that along with the we think
Speaker 1: that at least she said that her grandmother was born
Speaker 1: in Africa and her husband's grandmother was born in Africa,
Speaker 1: and spiritualism has interesting connections to what we call africanity.
Speaker 1: The idea of people connecting to the other world was
Speaker 1: something that Africans took as just common. It's just the
Speaker 1: way it was. There really was no break between the
Speaker 1: earthly life and the life of the beyond. That made
Speaker 1: spiritualism something that she essentially gravitated toward. And as she
Speaker 1: would say, she was practicing it before she even knew
Speaker 1: that there was something called spiritualism. You write so beautifully
Speaker 1: in the book about West African traditions that weren't broken
Speaker 1: by the introduction of Christianity into West Africa, and that
Speaker 1: Bell drew on in her early life. Can you talk
Speaker 1: about them, maybe in particular in relationship to when Belle,
Speaker 1: because she was born Isabella right m when she lost
Speaker 1: her father, how did his death shape her life and
Speaker 1: her spiritual perspective. She was very close to her father,
Speaker 1: who was the headman for this massive landowning family who
Speaker 1: at one point in their history, if you can believe this,
Speaker 1: owned two million acres of New York Land. Her father
Speaker 1: was the headman. He was highly respected, he was half
Speaker 1: mohawk in spite of the fact that he was highly
Speaker 1: respected by his owners. And as a matter of fact,
Speaker 1: after his owner died, he wrote that he was called
Speaker 1: bomb free, which was a combination of the Dutch a
Speaker 1: word bomb and the English word free free tree bomb
Speaker 1: meaning tree. So he was supposed to be taken care
Speaker 1: of once his owner passed away, and he left instructions
Speaker 1: for that, and the record shows that for three or
Speaker 1: four years after the owner passed away, the owner's sons
Speaker 1: did take care of him. Then it's pretty clear that
Speaker 1: they're not to get care of him, and then he
Speaker 1: his wife has died. Belle's mother has passed away, so
Speaker 1: he's basically being led around from pillar to post. He
Speaker 1: loses his eyesight, and she is enslaved by other people
Speaker 1: and she has to go from one place to another
Speaker 1: to find him. This goes on for a number of years,
Speaker 1: and they were very close. She and her younger brother
Speaker 1: were the only two remaining children that they were allowed
Speaker 1: to keep, and the others ten or twelve had been
Speaker 1: sold away. She was very close to her father. When
Speaker 1: he was sort of left to offend for himself, she
Speaker 1: would find him in various places and he would bemoan
Speaker 1: his fate, and she told him that this was her
Speaker 1: prediction that they were going to get their freedom pretty
Speaker 1: soon and she would take care of him. And of
Speaker 1: course he died before that happened, and she was devastated
Speaker 1: by his death. He froze to death alone, and the family,
Speaker 1: the Dutch family called the Hardenburgh's, wanted to recognize his
Speaker 1: faithful service. They didn't recognize his service when he was
Speaker 1: alive and it could have helped him, but after he
Speaker 1: died they wanted to have a funeral, which was highly unusual.
Speaker 1: Dutch people didn't have funerals for former slaves, but in
Speaker 1: recognition of old bomb free service to the family, they
Speaker 1: wanted to have a funeral. They invited all of the
Speaker 1: African dues people into the area for the funeral and
Speaker 1: they had He got a box, that is to say,
Speaker 1: he was buried in a coffin a pine box. The
Speaker 1: funeral consisted of this pine box and lots of rum.
Speaker 1: And that was sort of a high falutint funeral for
Speaker 1: a slave. For Bell, it was so disgusting. She remembered
Speaker 1: that she always said that throughout her life, she and
Speaker 1: her father talked to each other. She maintained that she
Speaker 1: was channeling her father on many occasions. She actually when
Speaker 1: she went to the utopian community. She visited utopian communities
Speaker 1: in the West, and she gave a talk about her
Speaker 1: father at one of them. I believe it was in Wisconsin. Yes,
Speaker 1: it was a Wisconsin Utopian community where she spoke about
Speaker 1: what had happened. That's where she gave the story of
Speaker 1: old Bomfree and how she channeled him when everything's got
Speaker 1: really difficult for her. It's an interesting story because with
Speaker 1: her father, according to her, being half Mohawk, then you've
Speaker 1: got the indigenous spiritualism involved in it too. But that
Speaker 1: was very important to her. He was her shining light.
Speaker 1: She makes this very clear in her narrative of how
Speaker 1: important he was to her. Would you tell the story
Speaker 1: of Belle emancipating herself and walking to freedom. She was
Speaker 1: a hard working young woman. She worked in the house,
Speaker 1: She worked in the yard, She worked in the fields.
Speaker 1: She milked cows, she fed the chickens, she cooked, she cleaned.
Speaker 1: According to her owners, the man who owned her for
Speaker 1: eighteen years, John Dumont. According to his daughter, she was
Speaker 1: the champion cradler wheat cradler in their neighborhood. She could
Speaker 1: throw the weed up in the air and have it
Speaker 1: wrapped before it hit the ground. That was Belle, and
Speaker 1: we get a sense of that from her famous Akron
Speaker 1: Ohio speech where she talks about all the works she
Speaker 1: did that was very important. She was a hard working
Speaker 1: person and her owner used to say that she was
Speaker 1: better to him than a man, and he promised her
Speaker 1: her freedom early because she worked so hard. In her
Speaker 1: zeal to continue to work hard under this promise of freedom,
Speaker 1: she cut off her index finger with a scythe while
Speaker 1: she was working. That meant that she couldn't work as hard,
Speaker 1: but she continued to work. The time came for her owner, Dumont,
Speaker 1: to honor his promise of freedom to her. The state
Speaker 1: of New York had decreed that in eighteen seven, all
Speaker 1: adults enslaved people would be free. He had promised to
Speaker 1: free her early a year early before that. So she
Speaker 1: went to him in to claim her promise, and he said, oh, no,
Speaker 1: I can't do that because you didn't work as hard
Speaker 1: as you were supposed to. She said, well, I had
Speaker 1: a diseased hand I couldn't as well. You still didn't
Speaker 1: do it, so I'm not going to honor my promise.
Speaker 1: So Belle was distressed, and she had created a little
Speaker 1: island in the middle of the river, and that was
Speaker 1: where she would go and talk to God. She had
Speaker 1: no religious instruction except what her mother gave her, and
Speaker 1: her mother's religious instruction was a kind of mysticism, where
Speaker 1: you speak to God and God speaks back to you.
Speaker 1: She went to her little island area and she asked
Speaker 1: God what she should do because he had broken his promise,
Speaker 1: and God told her she should leave. She said, well,
Speaker 1: how can I leave? They'll see me, and God told
Speaker 1: her to leave. Just before daybreak, when everyone was still asleep.
Speaker 1: She did. She had an infant, a nursing infant. She
Speaker 1: took her infant and she fled. She went to the
Speaker 1: home of a Quaker who was unable to help her,
Speaker 1: but he sent her to someone who did help her,
Speaker 1: who was also a Dutchman. He said that he would
Speaker 1: intercede on her behalf. And so when Dumont came for
Speaker 1: her and told her that she had to come back,
Speaker 1: she said, I'm not going because you broke your mus
Speaker 1: and you owe me this year of service. He threatened
Speaker 1: to take her to jail, and she said, okay, I'll
Speaker 1: go to jail, but I will not go back with you.
Speaker 1: And then the Dutchman who had offered her sanctuary, whose
Speaker 1: name was Isaac van Wagenen, interceded and he said, how
Speaker 1: much does Bell owe you? He gave him twenty dollars
Speaker 1: for the remainder of Bell's year and five dollars for
Speaker 1: Bell's baby. That is how she got her freedom, and
Speaker 1: she took the name of van Wagenen, and so she
Speaker 1: became Isabella van wagon and until she became so journal truth.
Speaker 1: Can you describe how the role in her life, that
Speaker 1: her faith, that her talking with God, that her following,
Speaker 1: her guiding light, her father. What role did that faith,
Speaker 1: that spirituality, that special practice play in the course of
Speaker 1: the next year or two when she was fighting to
Speaker 1: get her son back. That was probably she would call
Speaker 1: that her moment of sanctification. She had been converted. After
Speaker 1: she left Dumont and she went to live with the
Speaker 1: van wagon Ins, she had, uh, well what what we
Speaker 1: call in the Baptist church. She backslid. God had helped
Speaker 1: her obtain her freedom, and she was very thankful, but
Speaker 1: now she wanted to go back to bondage to basically
Speaker 1: participate in a festival called the Pinkster Festival. She was
Speaker 1: willing to go back to her former owner's farm to
Speaker 1: participate in this revelry. The very very Uh important festival
Speaker 1: among the African Dutch people actually comes out of Dutch
Speaker 1: religious culture, but the African Dutch made it their own.
Speaker 1: This was essentially her not being thankful for what God
Speaker 1: had done for her, and so at that point when
Speaker 1: she was trying to go away to celebrate with her
Speaker 1: friends and drink and party and have a good time,
Speaker 1: that's when she had her first epiphany and her first conversion,
Speaker 1: when God struck her as she said, God burnt me
Speaker 1: and made me wilt like a cabbage leaf. She didn't go,
Speaker 1: but she did realize that her conversion meant that there
Speaker 1: were certain activities that she no longer engaged in. So
Speaker 1: that was her conversion. Her sanctification came after the conversion
Speaker 1: when Uh, the man she was staying with, Mr van
Speaker 1: Wagen and came home and told her that he had
Speaker 1: heard that her child, her son, five year old son,
Speaker 1: who was still in bondage, had been sold. And this
Speaker 1: was something that was very common in New York. New
Speaker 1: York children were still enslaved and so New York slave
Speaker 1: owners so that they wouldn't who's their profit, We're selling
Speaker 1: these children to the South, which was illegal, and that's
Speaker 1: what had happened to her boy. And she was outraged.
Speaker 1: And this is this is our second sense of what
Speaker 1: a powerhouse this woman is going to be. The first
Speaker 1: one is when she challenges her owner and flees. The
Speaker 1: second one is when she will not accept the fact
Speaker 1: that her son has been sold and and she basically
Speaker 1: campaigns all over the neighborhood of Ulster County, rilling people
Speaker 1: about this, and especially the Quakers because it is against
Speaker 1: the law. Um. But what enslaved woman has the wherewithal
Speaker 1: to challenge the slave power? Well Bell did and um,
Speaker 1: and she got help from the Quakers, and she eventually
Speaker 1: was able to get her son back. But she raised
Speaker 1: a huge ruck buss. A lot of the slaveholders were
Speaker 1: angry with her for having done this, and so she
Speaker 1: felt very she felt very compromised, very vulnerable. Um. But
Speaker 1: she had told them that she was going to get
Speaker 1: her son back, and um, the owners had said, you
Speaker 1: can't get him back. But she with the help of
Speaker 1: the Quakers. So it's a very convoluted story. But the
Speaker 1: Quakers were adamantly anti slavery, and they helped her get
Speaker 1: a lawyer and eventually get this boy back. Within a
Speaker 1: year he was back, and when she got him back,
Speaker 1: she went to court and got him back. He was
Speaker 1: covered with bruises. He told her that the man who
Speaker 1: had purchased him, who was also a New Yorker who
Speaker 1: had moved to Alabama, had had had his horse hoof
Speaker 1: the boy. The boy her son's name was Peter. In
Speaker 1: the face, he had a big gash in his forehead
Speaker 1: where the man's horse had hoofed him, and and he
Speaker 1: showed her all the bruises on him, and she was
Speaker 1: so angry that she asked God for retribution, and she
Speaker 1: told him to render unto them double for everything they
Speaker 1: had done to her son. That was, as far as
Speaker 1: she was concerned, that was her curse that she was
Speaker 1: leveling against this family. And within a few months, this
Speaker 1: is this was her sanctification, as far as she was concerned,
Speaker 1: She had asked God to curse this family. But in
Speaker 1: a few months, the woman who was married to the
Speaker 1: man who had sold her son and brutalized him, was
Speaker 1: killed by her husband and in a very brutal way
Speaker 1: he Basically, according to uh the narrative, he had cut
Speaker 1: her wind pipe out in a drunken fit. He was
Speaker 1: an alcoholic. It was a double whammy because her son,
Speaker 1: Peter Bell's son, had told her that the only person
Speaker 1: who was nice to him while he was there in
Speaker 1: Alabama was this young woman, miss Eliza, who was also
Speaker 1: a New Yorker, But she had tried to help the
Speaker 1: little boy and had said she wished that he could
Speaker 1: go back to his mother. In a way, you know,
Speaker 1: she was innocent. I mean, she had married a New
Speaker 1: Yorker who had become a slaveholder, and they were living
Speaker 1: in Alabama, but she was trying to help Peter. Nonetheless,
Speaker 1: when Peter was brought back to New York, the owner,
Speaker 1: the the former owner, her husband was so angry, and
Speaker 1: he was an alcoholic anyway, that he took it out
Speaker 1: on her and killed her. And when Isabella, when Belle
Speaker 1: heard this, she said, this is what God is doing
Speaker 1: on my behest. But I didn't mean for good to
Speaker 1: go that far. And the fact that this young woman
Speaker 1: had died and that Belle had asked God to curse
Speaker 1: the family to her was God's way of I guess
Speaker 1: giving her a a special dispensation, even though she said,
Speaker 1: the language of my heart was I didn't mean for
Speaker 1: you to do so much, God, but I couldn't question God.
Speaker 1: So for her, that put her in a higher state
Speaker 1: of spirituality. So she went from being converted to being sanctified.
Speaker 1: And she told this story on the lecture circuit in
Speaker 1: New York City where she she she left uh Ulster County,
Speaker 1: UM the Hudson Valley within a year after her son
Speaker 1: was returned, and she told that story over and over again,
Speaker 1: and it made her a pot pular preacher in New
Speaker 1: York City, a revival preacher. So even before she became
Speaker 1: so journal truth is Isabella van Wagon, and she was
Speaker 1: preaching in New York City and telling her experience of
Speaker 1: conversion and sanctification. So that was her her background before
Speaker 1: she became the woman whom we would come to know well.
Speaker 1: And I'm interested more in that time because as she's
Speaker 1: working and preaching in New York City through the eighteen thirties, Um,
Speaker 1: she's working with people like she meets people like David Ruggles, UM,
Speaker 1: and she's really preaching social reform. Um. Can you talk
Speaker 1: a little bit about what life in New York City
Speaker 1: was like at that time, who was so journal addressing?
Speaker 1: Who is she preaching too? Well? When she went to
Speaker 1: New York, the Methodists heard her preach in um Ulster County,
Speaker 1: where she was born and raised, and they essentially said,
Speaker 1: you know you're your message is too important for you
Speaker 1: to be here, So they took her there. Uh, they
Speaker 1: found a Methodist. I can't call him a preacher because
Speaker 1: he was not accepted by the church. These people were out.
Speaker 1: There were Methodists who were shunning the Methodist Church because
Speaker 1: they felt the Methodist Church was becoming too respectable. So
Speaker 1: these were the people that she hooked up with as
Speaker 1: soon as she got to New York City, people who
Speaker 1: were dissenting from the Methodist Church, Methodists who were dissenting
Speaker 1: from Methodism. And so that's where um she got her contact.
Speaker 1: And New York City was a vibrant place for African Americans,
Speaker 1: but it was also a tragic place because it was
Speaker 1: a situation where African American adults were converging onto the
Speaker 1: city UM because that represented freedom and it represented mobility
Speaker 1: and a represented opportunity. But they had to leave their children,
Speaker 1: just as Bell had to leave her children. She left
Speaker 1: her daughters but she took her son, She took her
Speaker 1: a little boy with her. But the others uh remained
Speaker 1: in Ulster County, and so New York Black population, which
Speaker 1: was very large, found that there were opportunities to learn
Speaker 1: to read, there are opportunities to set up your own churches,
Speaker 1: but there were very few jobs other than domestic work. UH.
Speaker 1: And so that's what that's what they did, a lot,
Speaker 1: a lot of domestic work. But it was a very
Speaker 1: impoverished situation for free black people in New York City
Speaker 1: at that time, UM. And in many ways it would
Speaker 1: only get worse as far as the socio economic situation
Speaker 1: was concerned, but that would give rise to a very
Speaker 1: vibrant political culture on the part of Africa Americans to
Speaker 1: challenge this. So it was a time of hope uh.
Speaker 1: And it was a time in many cases of despair.
Speaker 1: People in belt situation, that is, women coming out of
Speaker 1: the farming areas trying to get jobs, often found themselves
Speaker 1: sometimes doublings as sex workers. UM. It was sometimes living
Speaker 1: uh in slum situations and if they were domestics, almost
Speaker 1: always of the time living in the home of their
Speaker 1: employer UM, which meant that they were on call all
Speaker 1: the time, so it's very confining life. As a matter
Speaker 1: of fact, a lot of the black leadership encouraged people
Speaker 1: black people to stay in the countryside and not come
Speaker 1: to the city because they were crowding into the cities.
Speaker 1: There weren't enough job I was a kind of hopelessness.
Speaker 1: But people were determined to make a better life, and
Speaker 1: so they were coming anyway. And so she was part
Speaker 1: of that movement of people coming into the city. And
Speaker 1: so she was determined to make a better life for herself.
Speaker 1: And I guess I should point out that she did
Speaker 1: have a husband, but she left him Um when he
Speaker 1: wouldn't come with her because he was an adult, he
Speaker 1: was free. He would not come with her. So she
Speaker 1: left UM and she was determined to not be a
Speaker 1: casualty of the city. And she says that I refused
Speaker 1: to bow to the filth of the city. And she
Speaker 1: had in a way, she had sort of a a
Speaker 1: protective group around her because these Methodists were so interested
Speaker 1: in her that they helped her find a position, and
Speaker 1: then she also worshiped with them, so um her I
Speaker 1: guess she had a kind of specialness about her because
Speaker 1: of her experiences, because of her capacity to communicate, keeping
Speaker 1: in mind that her English is not very good, but
Speaker 1: she's able to communicate with him even with her broken
Speaker 1: English and her Dutch brogue, in a way so that
Speaker 1: they find her incredibly inspiring. Uh. And she becomes a
Speaker 1: Revivalist preacher. Uh. And I don't know how many African
Speaker 1: Americans she reached, um, because she was a countrywoman and
Speaker 1: so there wouldn't be much respect and and of course
Speaker 1: she couldn't read and write, and she was Dutch, um,
Speaker 1: so there wouldn't be much respect for that. But as
Speaker 1: far as these Methodists who were coming into the city
Speaker 1: were concerned, her witness was so powerful uh that, as
Speaker 1: one person said it, everybody in the city was running
Speaker 1: after her. So so Um, how does she go from
Speaker 1: being a Methodist revival preacher to joining the Kingdom of Matthias? Um.
Speaker 1: The Kingdom of Matthias members, we're Methodists, Um. They were
Speaker 1: French Methodists. The Methodist Church, as I mentioned before, was
Speaker 1: becoming respectable. Um. And the people who were involved in
Speaker 1: cult groups like Matthias, and Matthias group was not the
Speaker 1: only one. UM. A lot of the we called these
Speaker 1: people perfectionists. Uh. And a lot of the Perfectionist. Organizations
Speaker 1: that grew out of this started in the Methodist Church.
Speaker 1: None of them went as far as the Kingdom of Matthias.
Speaker 1: But if you consider the Oneida Community UM in Oneida,
Speaker 1: New York, they had many of the same religious principles
Speaker 1: that Matthias had. They had multiple marriage UM, which was
Speaker 1: really the hallmark UH in terms of outrage with the
Speaker 1: Matthias Commune, but that was not unusual with these French cults.
Speaker 1: So they all started out as Methodists. The Methodist religion was,
Speaker 1: they called themselves when it was first founded, the religion
Speaker 1: that warms the heart. And when it was initially founded,
Speaker 1: it was opposed to slavery. UH. They believed in salvation
Speaker 1: being open to everyone, so it was it was an
Speaker 1: egalitarian denomination. By the Lady eighteen twenties, the Methodists wanted
Speaker 1: to become just like High Church. They wanted to become
Speaker 1: like Presbyterians, Congregationalists, and so the features of Methodism that
Speaker 1: had made it a religion that warms the heart, they
Speaker 1: wanted to divest the church of those so there would
Speaker 1: be no clapping, no loud singing, all the things that
Speaker 1: made Methodism a religion of expression. Those UH were left
Speaker 1: by the wayside, um and concerned for the poor those
Speaker 1: were left by the wayside. And so people who were
Speaker 1: Methodists objected to this, so they left the Methodist Church
Speaker 1: uh and founded these uh little perfectionist cells, and the
Speaker 1: Matthias Kingdom grew out of one of those. And so
Speaker 1: Belle was a Methodist and she was the kind of person.
Speaker 1: I think it's she was the kind of person who
Speaker 1: she lived on the fringe. UH. And so when her
Speaker 1: friends begin and to question the Methodist Church in favor
Speaker 1: of helping like wayward women, um, going into the slums
Speaker 1: of Five Points and helping people these kinds of activities
Speaker 1: that the church had been involved in previously, they wanted
Speaker 1: to continue that. And so uh, it's her early reform
Speaker 1: and it is it is important to see these French
Speaker 1: groups as reformists, because they were and they were also
Speaker 1: opposed to slavery. So UM the Matthias Commune was an
Speaker 1: extreme of dissension within the Methodist Church, but it wasn't
Speaker 1: the only one. They went farther than a lot of others.
Speaker 1: But um still you have to see them within the
Speaker 1: tradition of people like um. The founder of Oneida, John
Speaker 1: Humphrey Noise UM, his organization, which grew out of the
Speaker 1: Methodist and the Congregational Church, also believed in a multiple
Speaker 1: marriage and spirit matching UM, and Bell was a spiritualist.
Speaker 1: So the idea of UM, which was Germane to a
Speaker 1: lot of these French organizations coming out of the churches,
Speaker 1: the idea that your spirit match is more important than
Speaker 1: your legal marriage. They felt that this was supported by scripture,
Speaker 1: and Matthias took it to another level UM. But he
Speaker 1: wasn't the only one who did that. Can you describe
Speaker 1: the way that her experience in the Kingdom of Matthias
Speaker 1: Uh influenced Bells thinking going forward? What did she take
Speaker 1: away from that experience? UM? For one thing, I think
Speaker 1: it further empowered her UM because she was targeted UM
Speaker 1: by the the woman in the Matthias commune who UM
Speaker 1: basically owned the mansion that they lived in, and Uh
Speaker 1: was the one who was actually sleeping with father Matthias UM.
Speaker 1: She had targeted Bell as the person who was responsible
Speaker 1: for the death of one of the other cult leaders,
Speaker 1: when in fact he had died of a fit. But
Speaker 1: she did this to deflect blame Uh from and to
Speaker 1: cover up her sexuality with Matthias. So she wanted to
Speaker 1: put the blame on the colored woman, and that would
Speaker 1: make sense to the average white New Yorker because part
Speaker 1: of the attitudes toward black women was that they were
Speaker 1: loose women. I mean, that was just common Um thought.
Speaker 1: And so that's what she played on. So bell was
Speaker 1: in a vulnerable position. She essentially had not done anything
Speaker 1: except believe in the significance of the the cult. The
Speaker 1: woman who had basically committed adultery. UM was trying to
Speaker 1: deflect the blame, and Belle had the wherewithal to see
Speaker 1: what was going on, and she was undaunted, and she says,
Speaker 1: it's a wonderful quote. I've got the truth on my side,
Speaker 1: and I can crush them with the truth. And so
Speaker 1: she was prepared to go to court. They were going
Speaker 1: to have a trial because Um, after exhuming this man's body, Uh,
Speaker 1: they believed he had been poisoned, and the victim the
Speaker 1: poison the culprit appared appeared to be Belle, according to
Speaker 1: the adulteress and her husband Um. Until Belle was completely
Speaker 1: ready to follow that trajectory because she knew where it
Speaker 1: was going to lead. It was going to lead to
Speaker 1: the city of New York, seeing that one of their
Speaker 1: own upper class women was actually the adulteress UM. And
Speaker 1: so she was prepared And one of the ways in
Speaker 1: which she got prepared is UM. She went to an
Speaker 1: editor and told her story of the commune UM, which
Speaker 1: which I'm in the process of UM re re reproducing,
Speaker 1: republishing UM. Her story of what happened UM, and it
Speaker 1: is a main easing the kinds of her. Her recall
Speaker 1: is impeccable UM, and it can be borne out by
Speaker 1: historical fact that what was going on in this this
Speaker 1: particular common communits the newspapers are also important in this.
Speaker 1: But she is adamant that she can prove that she
Speaker 1: has done nothing wrong UM, and that UM this was
Speaker 1: something that was planted because of race and UH and
Speaker 1: the cultural opprobrium that African American women experience in American society.
Speaker 1: So she was up to the task. She sued them
Speaker 1: for defamation of character and she won. And so when
Speaker 1: she says, I can crush them with the truth, that's
Speaker 1: exactly what she did UH, this UM narrative of the
Speaker 1: goings on in the Kingdom where the narrative was published. UM.
Speaker 1: She won the suit and the adultresss husband who had
Speaker 1: basically slandered her, had to pay uh, I think twenty
Speaker 1: five or thirty five dollars to her for slandering her
Speaker 1: and apologize. UM. But on the downside, this was in
Speaker 1: all the newspapers and and she was a revival preacher,
Speaker 1: so she was known in the community. And UM that
Speaker 1: affected her reputation, There's no question about that. UH. And
Speaker 1: even though she was the trial that occurred, UH, they
Speaker 1: stopped it and dismissed the charges before they allowed her
Speaker 1: to testify. UM, and she never she was never charged
Speaker 1: with anything because they didn't want her to go to
Speaker 1: the witness stand after this book came out, and so
Speaker 1: they dropped the charges on everyone. So she was exonerated,
Speaker 1: but her reputation had suffered. And more importantly, what she
Speaker 1: found out and what she basically articulated, was that she
Speaker 1: had allowed the Charlatan two dictate the words of the
Speaker 1: scripture to her, and UM, he would read and then
Speaker 1: he would interpret the reading, and she believed his interpretation
Speaker 1: and UH, and she never forgave herself for that. And
Speaker 1: as a result of that, she decided that she would
Speaker 1: never first of all, never ask an adult to read
Speaker 1: the Bible to her only children. And secondly, she would
Speaker 1: never accept anyone's interpretation of the Bible except her own.
Speaker 1: M So that the situation with Matthias was over by
Speaker 1: eight it was still gonna be almost five years before
Speaker 1: she was going to claim her name of Sojourner Truth.
Speaker 1: So she stayed in the city Uh and UH and
Speaker 1: did her preaching and her prayer meeting and her working,
Speaker 1: but she was never as engaged in reform efforts as
Speaker 1: she was before that. Yeah, so when does when does
Speaker 1: Isabella van wagon and becomes Sojourner Truth? And what's that
Speaker 1: process like for her? Um? Part of it has to
Speaker 1: do with her son Peter, who grew up in the
Speaker 1: city UM with her and became like, oh, I guess
Speaker 1: you'd say, you just really really was. Peter was a
Speaker 1: little gangster UM and that caused her a tremendous amount
Speaker 1: of angst it uh and one way he landed on
Speaker 1: his feet. In another way he ended tragically. But in
Speaker 1: terms of landing on his feet. The pastor of a
Speaker 1: prominent UH Episcopal church who was also a very important
Speaker 1: Black activists. His his role in the community was to
Speaker 1: help young black boys UM get a foothold in life.
Speaker 1: And one of the ways in which young black boys
Speaker 1: did that was to go to see forty of the
Speaker 1: seamen in America at this time. We're black and so um.
Speaker 1: It was a way for parents to get their sons
Speaker 1: out of harm's way while they matured. And then when
Speaker 1: they came back, if they came back um, then uh,
Speaker 1: they would be able to handle life. So Peter Williams
Speaker 1: job was to find seaman positions for boys who would
Speaker 1: be were in trouble. And so that's what saved Peter um.
Speaker 1: And he went off to sea in eighteen thirty nine,
Speaker 1: wrote his mother beautiful letters, UM and um was coming
Speaker 1: back a changed man. But he never came back. He
Speaker 1: was due to come back in eighteen forty three and
Speaker 1: he did not come back. Um. I traced the ship
Speaker 1: that he was on and it had some issues. One
Speaker 1: of the issues was smallpox. Another issue was a mutiny.
Speaker 1: And he wrote her and said that he had been
Speaker 1: disciplined for trying to help people on the boat and
Speaker 1: um he um was had gotten in trouble, but he
Speaker 1: was okay now. And that was the last letter she
Speaker 1: got from him. So he either succumbed to smallpox, maybe
Speaker 1: he was beaten, we don't know. But he never came back.
Speaker 1: He was due to come back in eighteen forty three.
Speaker 1: And I think that that is telling because that is
Speaker 1: the same time when she leaves the city and becomes
Speaker 1: Sojourner Truth. So I think it's a she's already very distressed. Um,
Speaker 1: she's not making as much spiritual progress as she was,
Speaker 1: Like she's confused, but she's there waiting for her son,
Speaker 1: and her son does not come back. And uh. In
Speaker 1: May of eighteen forty three, denoted literary um author who
Speaker 1: is now the editor of the New York City anti
Speaker 1: slavery newspaper, The Anti Slavery Standard, writes this little article
Speaker 1: in the Standard about a colored woman giving a speech
Speaker 1: at the Colored Method Church and it she says that
Speaker 1: it is the most profound speech you could imagine. And
Speaker 1: she says that the colored woman was born in New
Speaker 1: York slavery um and she talked about her experiences as
Speaker 1: a slave and it was extremely powerful. Well, two weeks later,
Speaker 1: so Journer Truth is in Brooklyn as Sojourner Truth, and
Speaker 1: so I am positive that the woman that Lydia Mariah
Speaker 1: Child is writing about. And the Standard is so Journer Truth. Um.
Speaker 1: And by the way, Lydia Murria Child and Soldier her
Speaker 1: Truth become very good friends in the anti slavery movement,
Speaker 1: in the women's rights movement. Um. So these events Peter's
Speaker 1: uh scheduled return earn which doesn't happen. That's in the
Speaker 1: spring of eighteen forty three. The little speech at the
Speaker 1: Colored Methodist Church is in May of eighteen forty three.
Speaker 1: And in May of eighteen forty three she takes the
Speaker 1: Brooklyn Ferry to Long Island. Uh. And that's there she
Speaker 1: meets the Quaker and tells the Quaker her name is
Speaker 1: so Journal, and the Quakers is will do you have
Speaker 1: another name? And she says, well, uh, no, I don't see.
Speaker 1: Well everybody has two names. Um. And after a lot
Speaker 1: of consideration, she settles on the name of Truth, because
Speaker 1: that is truth is another name for God. Mhm mhm, Um,
Speaker 1: you mentioned the power of that. Uh, that's sermon. What
Speaker 1: do we know about so Journal is preaching? I mean
Speaker 1: she starts really traveling when she takes the name Sojourner,
Speaker 1: and she's an itinerary preacher through the forties and fifties
Speaker 1: and and really for the rest of her life. Even
Speaker 1: when she has kind of a home base, she's she's
Speaker 1: traveling to to preach and teach. Can you describe what
Speaker 1: it would have been like to hear Sojourner preach in
Speaker 1: eighteen fifties, Well, um, I guess. Let me think about
Speaker 1: some of her speeches. Um. We have some because people
Speaker 1: would write them down on the newspapers. She was a
Speaker 1: powerful woman in the sense that she used. First of all,
Speaker 1: she used examples from her background, keeping in mind that
Speaker 1: she couldn't read and write, UM. And so to be
Speaker 1: a powerful speaker, first of all, you had to you
Speaker 1: had to have pathos, you had to have humor, You
Speaker 1: had to sing, and she had a beautiful singing voice.
Speaker 1: And she would often begin with a song and UM,
Speaker 1: and then she would be then she'd have a prayer,
Speaker 1: and then she would speak. And her speaking was instructive.
Speaker 1: She would always talk about her life as a slave, um,
Speaker 1: and her experience. I mean her her pat speech had
Speaker 1: to do with how she got her freedom and how
Speaker 1: she got her son back. Um. But then as she
Speaker 1: became more and more experience. One thing we don't have
Speaker 1: any record of her ever having talked about was Matthias.
Speaker 1: But as she got more and more experience, then her
Speaker 1: speeches would often when she got into the meat of it,
Speaker 1: UH would reflect things she had heard other people say
Speaker 1: that she would pull apart um. And one of the
Speaker 1: some wonderful examples she also because she knew so much scripture.
Speaker 1: I mean, for a woman who couldn't read and write,
Speaker 1: she could quote scripture. Um. And there's a wonderful story. Um.
Speaker 1: She's in the area of western Massachusetts is an antislavery meeting.
Speaker 1: She's living in Northampton at that time. And the person
Speaker 1: who's in charge of the meeting is Lydia Mariah Child UM.
Speaker 1: And and Sojourner is in the audience. Now she's not
Speaker 1: hasn't spoken, but she's she's there in the audience and Um.
Speaker 1: One of the speakers is a man named an abolitions
Speaker 1: named Stephen Foster, and he speaks UM. And then one
Speaker 1: of the men in the audience is a minister, and
Speaker 1: he stands up and UH, and he be rates the
Speaker 1: abolitionists and and says that you know, I haven't heard
Speaker 1: anything moving here at all. And everyone told me that
Speaker 1: I should come and hear the abolitionists speak because I
Speaker 1: will be very, very moved. And I haven't heard anything moving.
Speaker 1: All I have heard is a bunch of words from
Speaker 1: women and jackasses. And of course the crowd is shocked.
Speaker 1: And then so Journer stands up and this is this
Speaker 1: is one of her This is not a speech for
Speaker 1: this is this is an example of her amazing uh
Speaker 1: biblical knowledge and and her capacity to just change the tone.
Speaker 1: So she stands up and and and walks to the
Speaker 1: front and she says, Mrs Chairman, I'd like to have
Speaker 1: a word. And um, and she says, this man is
Speaker 1: very angry, and uh, I know the story. I've heard
Speaker 1: the story. He's an intelligent man. He can read the Bible.
Speaker 1: I've heard the story of another minister who got very
Speaker 1: angry at an ass who could talk. And and then
Speaker 1: she told the story out of I think it's the
Speaker 1: Book of Numbers between Baalim, who's uh a mohab priest
Speaker 1: who is uh supposed to go someplace, and God doesn't
Speaker 1: want him to go, so he puts the angel Gabriel
Speaker 1: in the road, and Bilim keeps whipping his h jackass
Speaker 1: to go on the road, and the jackass can see
Speaker 1: the angel, but Bialem can't, and he keeps whipping the
Speaker 1: jackass whipping him, and the jackass won't go And finally, Um,
Speaker 1: the angel is revealed to Baalim And so, what's so,
Speaker 1: journal Truth says as she tells the story, she says,
Speaker 1: I knew another man who got mighty mad at an
Speaker 1: ask and talk who could talk? Uh? And I would,
Speaker 1: And she tells the story, and she says, so, I
Speaker 1: just want to remind the man and the audience that
Speaker 1: it was the ass and not the minister who saw
Speaker 1: the angel. And the crowd just went wild. So this
Speaker 1: is an example of one of her ways of getting
Speaker 1: the attention of the crowd. And and the other thing
Speaker 1: is that's interesting to me. I've i've when she spoke
Speaker 1: to African Americans, UM, as she did in the eighteen fifties,
Speaker 1: for example, in New York City. By eighteen fifty she's
Speaker 1: well known and people who sort of took exception to
Speaker 1: her in the eighteen thirties in New York City are
Speaker 1: now going to hear her. And so she speaks one
Speaker 1: talk that she gives an abbess any in Baptist Church,
Speaker 1: which is recorded in UM the New York Tribune. She
Speaker 1: it's it's a long speech and uh, and she begins
Speaker 1: in the usual way with the prayer and singing and
Speaker 1: so on, and then she is very personal and talks
Speaker 1: about what it's like to speak to her own people.
Speaker 1: And she reminds them that when she lived there, nobody
Speaker 1: black people paid any attention to her. That most of
Speaker 1: her work that she did as a reformer as Isabella
Speaker 1: was in the five points among sex workers and drunks
Speaker 1: and people like that. UM. And but that's what she did.
Speaker 1: And she says, you know, I'm um, and she talks
Speaker 1: about her background from rural Dutch background UH, and that
Speaker 1: she was not accepted UM. So she basically sort of
Speaker 1: critiques them for kind of their elitism UM. And then
Speaker 1: she gets on the black ministers and she because at
Speaker 1: this point in the eighteen fifties, the Methodist Church has
Speaker 1: denied the pulpit to black women UM and has denied
Speaker 1: UH ordination to anybody who cannot read and write, and
Speaker 1: so UM people like her. There are a few black
Speaker 1: women preachers who UM can't preach in a building. They
Speaker 1: preach out in the open air. That's why they do it.
Speaker 1: So she criticizes them at these black managers with their
Speaker 1: UM Greek crammed heads, UM will not allow the word
Speaker 1: of God to be uh spoken by somebody like me.
Speaker 1: So she criticizes them um in that speech. And then
Speaker 1: she also talks them about the city um and how
Speaker 1: important it is not to bow to the filth of
Speaker 1: the city. Um. And and then and and this is
Speaker 1: really the I think it's really the punchline. She talks
Speaker 1: to them about activism and how important it is and
Speaker 1: and you get the sense from what she's saying that
Speaker 1: even though there's a huge abolitionist movement going on in
Speaker 1: the eighteen fifties, um, and the lots of black abolitionist
Speaker 1: speakers and so on in cities, people are not on
Speaker 1: on a daily daily basis, are not as active as
Speaker 1: as they could be or should be. And so she
Speaker 1: critiques them on that too. UM. And and that's important
Speaker 1: because there's an underground railroad after eighteen fifty when the
Speaker 1: fugitive flat laws passed, Uh, the underground railroad is very vibrant. Uh.
Speaker 1: And so she and speaking to her own people, is
Speaker 1: honest in them for not taking a more activist role
Speaker 1: um and Um. It's a long speech, so that's her
Speaker 1: with her own people. UM. But yeah, there were these
Speaker 1: elements in an anti slavery, speech, humor, pathos, experience um
Speaker 1: and uh and you had to tell a story. So
Speaker 1: um she was she was really, she was a master
Speaker 1: at this. Let's talk about one of those places where
Speaker 1: she did feel at home, uh in the Northampton Association UM,
Speaker 1: which is such an interesting episode of her life, in
Speaker 1: part because of all the people she meets there. And
Speaker 1: you write about the isms that were in the air
Speaker 1: at Northampton in the eighteen forties. What was that community
Speaker 1: like and what were some of those is ms, the ideas,
Speaker 1: the what was it like to be in Northampton in
Speaker 1: that period? Northampton was a very special place. I mean,
Speaker 1: all of the utopian communities. We don't know much about Harmonia,
Speaker 1: the one that she was involved in in Michigan, but
Speaker 1: we do have a lot of information on Northampton, and
Speaker 1: of course that's where she wrote her narrative. But Northampton had,
Speaker 1: first of all, it was founded by William Lord Garrison,
Speaker 1: the head of the American Anti Slavery Society, founded by
Speaker 1: his brother in law. UM. And and that made it
Speaker 1: sort of an entrepole for anti slavery. UM. It was
Speaker 1: a Northampton, Massachusetts was a place that slaveholders like to
Speaker 1: go for a vacation. UM. And so the commune was
Speaker 1: sort of on the outside, I guess you'd say it
Speaker 1: would be uh, north of the city of Northampton. UM.
Speaker 1: And the people who founded it were from southeastern Connecticut.
Speaker 1: That's where Garrison's brother in law was from, and then
Speaker 1: a number of his in laws UH went to Northampton
Speaker 1: as well. And UM it was founded by abolitionists. They
Speaker 1: wanted a commune where they could have open discussions, and
Speaker 1: they also wanted a sort of a region that would
Speaker 1: be in between the East and the West, with the
Speaker 1: west being not I mean not not even the Midwest
Speaker 1: that this that is to say, not Ohio and Michigan,
Speaker 1: but west meaning western New York. UM. That's sort of
Speaker 1: the way they saw the anti slavery dichotomy. So you
Speaker 1: had Boston and then you had New York. But New
Speaker 1: York was in the hands of a more conservative anti
Speaker 1: slavery group who did not allow women to speak. So
Speaker 1: the next headquarters after Boston was really Rochester. So Northampton
Speaker 1: was in between. UM. And for individuals leaving Boston in
Speaker 1: that area to go into the Midwest to speak, then
Speaker 1: Northampton was a stopping place UH for them going that way.
Speaker 1: It was also a stopping place if they were going
Speaker 1: to go north. Um. It was also an important underground
Speaker 1: railroad entrepos So all of the reasons that someone would
Speaker 1: want to be in Northampton as a sort of the
Speaker 1: the core of anti slavery in the east. Uh, we're
Speaker 1: there for for Soldier Earner. So um, everybody stopped there.
Speaker 1: M Frederick Douglas, Charles Lennox, Rieman, Abby Kelly. Uh. It
Speaker 1: was the place where you went for all kinds of
Speaker 1: of activities. It was also a place that had I
Speaker 1: guess you'd say the core of reformism there more than
Speaker 1: any other of the utopian communities, because even though it
Speaker 1: was founded by abolitionists, they welcome other reforms as well,
Speaker 1: so that it wasn't specifically a spiritualist commune, it wasn't
Speaker 1: specifically a transcendentalist commune. Um, it was sort of a
Speaker 1: commune's commune. So everybody was there. The Graham Bread people
Speaker 1: were there, you know, the food reformers, the health the
Speaker 1: water Cure was there. David Ruggles had his water cure
Speaker 1: a concern there. John Brown's wife was at the water
Speaker 1: Cure with so Journer truth Um. So north Hampton was
Speaker 1: the entrepo of communalism. Everybody stopped there. Um So that's
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's the way I would explain it.
Speaker 1: And it was if you look at the Northampton records,
Speaker 1: uh and and the kind of people who came was
Speaker 1: also integrated. That's another important part of Northampton. Most of
Speaker 1: these communes were not integrated. And that wasn't because they
Speaker 1: uh did not allow African Americans. It's just because African
Speaker 1: Americans didn't go there. Um So journal when she left
Speaker 1: New York, she was headed for fruit Lands, and the
Speaker 1: people in um one of the Quaker places where she
Speaker 1: stopped in Long Island, told that she didn't want Fruitlands
Speaker 1: was not the place for her. And then she said, okay,
Speaker 1: well then I'll go to the Shakers and they said, no,
Speaker 1: that's not the place either. Um. The Shakers is thoroughly
Speaker 1: religious and it has a religious, a very doctrinaire religious impulse.
Speaker 1: Um Brook Farm was intellectual. The Oneida community was in
Speaker 1: a multiple marriage for men. So they all had their causes.
Speaker 1: North Hampton you didn't have to have a specific cause,
Speaker 1: but you had to be an abolitionist. Um So it
Speaker 1: was really the center of the communes. And and everybody
Speaker 1: went there, even people from UM Europe. The first thing
Speaker 1: they wanted to do when they were studying utopian ism
Speaker 1: must go to Northampton. So it's in Northampton where she
Speaker 1: meets people like Amy Post from Rochester. It's in this
Speaker 1: this web of relationships from Northampton where she meets Amy Post,
Speaker 1: who's at the beginning with the Fox Sisters and what's
Speaker 1: often pointed to as the beginning of modern spiritualism. There.
Speaker 1: But she also meets Andrew Jackson Davis. Right, that's right.
Speaker 1: Can you remember what their conversations were like, UM, I
Speaker 1: don't know. I know she was very close to his wife. Um,
Speaker 1: she and he wasn't there that long. Actually she met
Speaker 1: Amy Post. She didn't meet Amy Post in Northampton. She
Speaker 1: met Amy Post in Rochester. In UM, there was some
Speaker 1: friction between Andrew Jackson Davis and UM. People who sort
Speaker 1: of got into spiritualism through the Fox Sisters. They thought
Speaker 1: that Davis is UH spiritualism was more self serving, is
Speaker 1: not as authentic. UM. But that was just just differences. UM.
Speaker 1: The Fox Sisters were from western New York, and so
Speaker 1: people who UH came to spiritualism as a practice as
Speaker 1: a reform through that venue just sort of gravitated towards
Speaker 1: her her well, there were two of them, the Fox
Speaker 1: Sisters UM and then Andrew Jackson Davis. That was a
Speaker 1: different venue. So it really depended on who you got
Speaker 1: your your spiritualism through. And the Fox Sisters were right
Speaker 1: outside of Rochester, so that was sort of the beginning.
Speaker 1: But even before that, I mean even even before she
Speaker 1: met so Journer met the Fox Sisters, she had met
Speaker 1: Andrew Jackson Davis because he would come to UH to Northampton,
Speaker 1: so she was already into the spiritualist network. UM and
Speaker 1: UM they said her you know, so journal was the
Speaker 1: what was her role? She was the head of the
Speaker 1: laundry at Northampton, even though as as one UM person
Speaker 1: who was taking her place, she was hardly ever there.
Speaker 1: One of the things about her being ahead of the
Speaker 1: laundry was that when she wasn't there, a lot of
Speaker 1: the men would do the laundry for her because she
Speaker 1: was often gone giving speeches. But one of the things
Speaker 1: that UH she did was in the community hall, which
Speaker 1: is where they all met, is that she had, as
Speaker 1: far as I can remember, two conversations on spiritualism with Davis.
Speaker 1: UM that and this comes from a group of letters
Speaker 1: from the steps and family, who are one of the
Speaker 1: founding families of Northampton. Uh that, and she says something
Speaker 1: to the effect of Andrew Jackson Davis and the soldiurn
Speaker 1: and really went at it um tonight. And she doesn't
Speaker 1: say what they went at it on um, but who knows?
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. And I know there are records of Andrew
Speaker 1: Jackson Davis later being disdainful of what he calls, you know,
Speaker 1: the spirit rapping and it's not the embrace of his
Speaker 1: harmonial philosophy, and it's not you know, the embracing translectors,
Speaker 1: but people looking for the wrappings and the table turnings
Speaker 1: and the kind of physical manifestations. And he in some
Speaker 1: cases pushes back against that as being a kind of
Speaker 1: a true spiritualism. So that's an interesting point you make
Speaker 1: about um people on that side, Amy Post, who is
Speaker 1: good friends with the Foxes and and so journal and
Speaker 1: their network of spiritualist believers, that they would find Davis
Speaker 1: to be I'm trying to remember the word you used.
Speaker 1: Was it disdainful or something? That's interesting? Well, they were
Speaker 1: more there. Their spiritualism, as far as every concerned, was
Speaker 1: more authentic. Um, he was not so much into mediums UM.
Speaker 1: And so Journal was a medium. UM. I mean she
Speaker 1: she was adamant about that, and UM so was Isaac Post.
Speaker 1: So they believed very strongly in in that that the
Speaker 1: medium part that the rapping. And they also believed in
Speaker 1: that that their seances included rappings. UM. And you know,
Speaker 1: I think also some of it was their political orientations
Speaker 1: between Davis and and UH. And Davis was certainly a
Speaker 1: reformer UM. But and aside from political and by political
Speaker 1: mean that they were basically in competition UH, spiritualism. For
Speaker 1: the practicing abolitionists, the activist abolitionism was not something that
Speaker 1: consumed them. It had its place, but it was not
Speaker 1: um the end all the way it was for Andrew
Speaker 1: Jackson Davis. UM. They certainly took it seriously. They had
Speaker 1: their seances. UM. It was actually I think it was
Speaker 1: Isaac Post who channeled John Quincy Adams UM. And so
Speaker 1: they did strongly believe in it. But but they had
Speaker 1: other causes as well. One of the most important ones was,
Speaker 1: of course the breaks within the Quaker Church that they
Speaker 1: were dealing with. So UM, their causes were much more
Speaker 1: diverse than Andrew Jackson Davis. You mentioned that Sojourner's vision
Speaker 1: was an as narrowly confined as Andrew Jackson Davis's. Um,
Speaker 1: how important were women's conventions and anti slavery conventions for
Speaker 1: sojourn Or during the eighteen fifties, because Yeah, she's not
Speaker 1: just following these the spiritualist circles. She's preaching abolition. She's preaching, Um,
Speaker 1: she's part of the women's movement, and and and she's
Speaker 1: doing religious teaching at the same time as these other things.
Speaker 1: How important were these conventions for the life of the
Speaker 1: movements she was involved in. Well, the conventions were her network.
Speaker 1: They were very important. Um, I mean that was her life.
Speaker 1: Spiritualism was part of her very being. It later, you know,
Speaker 1: like when this she starts regularly attending spiritualist conventions after
Speaker 1: the Civil War, m Um, before that, she's I mean,
Speaker 1: she's she's at all of the women's rise conventions when
Speaker 1: she's in town, when she's in the area. Uh and
Speaker 1: of course at every anti slavery convention until she moves
Speaker 1: to the east to the west. Sorry, and then Uh,
Speaker 1: so she is deeply involved. And and I think it's
Speaker 1: important to understand that spiritualism was so germane to her.
Speaker 1: That um as as one um UM newspaper asked her
Speaker 1: when did she join the spiritualists, and she said, but
Speaker 1: there's nothing to join, you know, it's it's just me um. So.
Speaker 1: But then they started having spiritualist conventions and she would
Speaker 1: go to those. M Hum, there's a section and and
Speaker 1: my book where they are. Uh. There's an anti slavery
Speaker 1: convention in Michigan. It's in the eighteen fifty seven and UM.
Speaker 1: It gives you a sense of how important spiritualism was.
Speaker 1: This is an anti slavery convention. Uh. It's being run
Speaker 1: by Sojourner and her friend from Ohio, Josephine Griffin, and
Speaker 1: her friend from Rochester, Lucy Coleman. So they're running this
Speaker 1: and then the progressive friends in Michigan are also involved, UM.
Speaker 1: And they're making speeches and they're singing and so on.
Speaker 1: And then an anti slavery UM activists. A woman gets
Speaker 1: up and she gives a spiritualist speech. UM. And the
Speaker 1: newspaper editor, whose name is Marius Robinson, really tries to
Speaker 1: write it down in the anti slavery bugle. I can't
Speaker 1: understand a word of it, but there it is in print.
Speaker 1: UM and UM and she's channeling all of these p
Speaker 1: well right in the middle of this anti slavery convention. Uh.
Speaker 1: And then you know, she sits down and and then
Speaker 1: so Jenna Truth gets up and speaks, and um, she
Speaker 1: does not mention the woman's spiritualist speech. She talks about
Speaker 1: anti slavery and her her own children and um. But
Speaker 1: then the next speaker, and I think it's uh right,
Speaker 1: I can't remember his first name, Henry C. Wright. Uh.
Speaker 1: He goes back to the whole spiritualist outpouring that this
Speaker 1: woman had um. And so it's it's really it's kind
Speaker 1: of like embedded in there. Even though I don't know
Speaker 1: when they had the first Spiritualist convention. Um, I'll have
Speaker 1: to look and look at because this this new book
Speaker 1: that I'm working on, Spiritualism is is very much a
Speaker 1: part of it. I'm spending a lot of time looking
Speaker 1: at Cora Hatch. Yeah. I mean, she's she's she's amazing.
Speaker 1: But but it was, you know, it was just something
Speaker 1: that they all accepted. I mean, everybody except Frederick Douglas. Um,
Speaker 1: they couldn't. He couldn't. He would go to that. He
Speaker 1: started going to the conventions after the Civil War. But
Speaker 1: I read a few letters that you wrote to Amy Post.
Speaker 1: It's just like in the late eighteen forties, and he's
Speaker 1: you know, saying, I just I just can't, I can't
Speaker 1: get into it. M hm Um. But he's one of
Speaker 1: the few. I mean, the other blackmail abolitionists are many
Speaker 1: of whom are ministers, are are very devoted to it.
Speaker 1: You mentioned Josephine Griffin. Um after well after so journal
Speaker 1: cells or Northampton property in eight seven and moved out
Speaker 1: to Battle Creek, the Harmonia community there. Um. She again
Speaker 1: is still traveling. It's not like she she listened, but
Speaker 1: she Yeah, she has an illness during the Civil War
Speaker 1: years right, Um, but then she comes back and many
Speaker 1: years after the war she's very involved with Josephine Griffin
Speaker 1: in the Freedmen's Village and the National Freedman's Relief Association.
Speaker 1: Can you talk about the work that she was doing there.
Speaker 1: She was a counselor for the freed people. Um. And
Speaker 1: she was both in Washington when Josephine Griffin was the
Speaker 1: assistant director of the Bureau for Washington and and and
Speaker 1: they had that house on Capitol Avenue or Capitol Hill.
Speaker 1: They and just um so Journer worked there as a
Speaker 1: counselor for the freed freed women and then before that,
Speaker 1: so that was like that was that was after the
Speaker 1: death of Lincoln. Before that is when she meets Lincoln.
Speaker 1: That's when she's at Freedman's Village and she's she's doing
Speaker 1: She's very important there because these are all women and
Speaker 1: men and children who were slaves. And um, they needed
Speaker 1: uh someone who could talk uh the language that they
Speaker 1: could understand that as someone who had been enslaved. Uh.
Speaker 1: And she was a counselor at Freedman's Village for about
Speaker 1: a year and a half, and that was important. That
Speaker 1: was when the Freedman's village they built homes a little
Speaker 1: they weren't really homes, but they were, um, well, I
Speaker 1: guess they were village homes for them. Um. And and
Speaker 1: so jouring her truth set up a church. Um. She
Speaker 1: asked people, congressmen to come when they had celebrations they
Speaker 1: and they would they would come and and see the
Speaker 1: progress that the freed people were making. Um. And she
Speaker 1: also was because she was you know, she was she
Speaker 1: was an African Dutch woman. She was kind of a taskmaster.
Speaker 1: She was sort of no nonsense. So um, she would
Speaker 1: chestise the freed people UH for their behavior UM and UM.
Speaker 1: At some point it made her unpopular with them. But
Speaker 1: she was very very strict UH in terms of what
Speaker 1: you should and shouldn't do. And also they were very religious,
Speaker 1: so there was never any question about them going to church.
Speaker 1: But so Journer wanted UH circumspect behavior UH and UM.
Speaker 1: The difference between enslaved people who were born and raised
Speaker 1: in the North and enslaved people who were born and
Speaker 1: raised in the South could be considerable and um and
Speaker 1: and so Journer also was raised in a very sort
Speaker 1: of industrious type of UH, a home life where everything
Speaker 1: is all cleanliness and UM. She promoted that and sometimes
Speaker 1: they didn't like it. They thought she was too officious. UM.
Speaker 1: So she stayed there for a year and a half
Speaker 1: and then she went to help with Josephine and the
Speaker 1: UH in the city in Washington City, and that was
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's where she really thrived because
Speaker 1: she taught sewing and UH and other domestic arts to
Speaker 1: the women. And then she went to Freedman's Hospital and
Speaker 1: worked at Freedman's Hospital UM, which was going to become
Speaker 1: Howard University's medical school. She did that for a year
Speaker 1: and a half. At the same time, she is, along
Speaker 1: with Josephine, setting up this employment office. I just found
Speaker 1: that was that was so fascinating. Um, that their their
Speaker 1: commitment was such so that they were looking at every
Speaker 1: avenue possible, uh two place people and I mean just
Speaker 1: all kinds of ways. She was active in the court
Speaker 1: system with the the apprentice system. I I they took
Speaker 1: this out of the book, but the apprentice system in
Speaker 1: the state of Maryland, uh provided that planters could take
Speaker 1: people's children and uh and put them to work. And
Speaker 1: so she went to court to challenge that. And of
Speaker 1: course she challenged the street car arrangements um, because Lincoln
Speaker 1: had desegregated the street cars before he passed away, and um,
Speaker 1: the conductors were not honoring it. Um. And so she
Speaker 1: had a big court case with that because she gets
Speaker 1: thrown off right. She gets thrown off right yeah, um,
Speaker 1: and and has dislocates her shoulder and the Freedman Hospital
Speaker 1: doctors go to court with her to testify. Um. So
Speaker 1: she's and and then she she's once they are transporting
Speaker 1: people trying to get them settled elsewhere, because the city
Speaker 1: of Washington has forty tho African Americans in it as
Speaker 1: a result of the war. Um, and there are not
Speaker 1: enough jobs for them, there's not enough space. Um, they're
Speaker 1: living in alleys. Uh. You know, basically they have nothing,
Speaker 1: nothing over their heads. So she and Josephine are trying
Speaker 1: to get them out of Washington and so she takes
Speaker 1: um trainloads of them two Rochester and even to Michigan.
Speaker 1: Um when they call them so journals trains. So I
Speaker 1: mean she's she's really amazing during this period, after after
Speaker 1: having almost died being so sick during the Civil War. Yeah. Yeah, Um,
Speaker 1: you also found some fascinating you describe them wonderful letters
Speaker 1: between Cora Hatch and Amy Post when Cora comes and
Speaker 1: stays with or or visit Sojourner at the Freedoman's Hospital.
Speaker 1: Do we know much about her relationship with Cora? In
Speaker 1: the book, I talked about this uh abolitionist singing group,
Speaker 1: the Hutchinson's. Um. The Hutchison's were the most popular folk
Speaker 1: singers in America, but they were also radical abolitionists and uh,
Speaker 1: and they were good friends of Sojourners. They spent a
Speaker 1: lot of time at Northampton, and there there's one abbey,
Speaker 1: Abby Hutchison is the one, uh young lady in the
Speaker 1: group there from there there from New Hampshire, and Abby
Speaker 1: married uh maybe right after or during the Civil War,
Speaker 1: maybe just before she married a wealthy guy in um,
Speaker 1: New Jersey, I think. And after so Journer moved to
Speaker 1: the west. When she would go east, she had a
Speaker 1: certain certain places where she would stay and one of
Speaker 1: them was Abbe Hudgison's home. Uh. And Abby was a
Speaker 1: spiritualist and UH and Abby uh had Cora hatch at
Speaker 1: her house a lot and Cora and so Journer met
Speaker 1: at Abby Hudgson whatever her married name was, I can't remember, uh,
Speaker 1: at Abbey Hudgison's home, and they met there several times,
Speaker 1: uh that I've found because when so Journer was after
Speaker 1: she got well and she said, I'm determined to go
Speaker 1: to Washington and see the freedom of my people. She
Speaker 1: stayed with Abby Hudson's and Cora was also there. And
Speaker 1: then Cora went to Washington and and so journal was there.
Speaker 1: It's a big African American church, um, and the African
Speaker 1: Americans loved Cora hatch Um and so she spoke a
Speaker 1: lot of their churches and so journey was there when
Speaker 1: she spoke, Um, so they and then well then when
Speaker 1: the conventions began, when the spiritual Spiritualist conventions began after
Speaker 1: the Civil War. There's one in Rochester that I I'm recalling. Um,
Speaker 1: both Cora Hatch and so Journal Truth were on the
Speaker 1: platform and the Amy post papers at the University of Rochester.
Speaker 1: There are three or four letters from Cora to Amy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and those are the ones you describe in the book.
Speaker 1: I just loved finding that detail. That's amazing. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: they were, they were very close. It's amazing network of
Speaker 1: people mm hmm in the in the in the later
Speaker 1: sixties and then in the seventies. Uh. One of the
Speaker 1: things you write about the sojourn and was doing a
Speaker 1: lot was traveling with petitions for land for the freedman
Speaker 1: um in the midst of the other conventions and the
Speaker 1: preaching that she continues to do. It seems like those
Speaker 1: petitions became really the focus of kind of her final years. Um.
Speaker 1: The energy that she was putting into those. Is that
Speaker 1: how you would describe kind of the last decade of
Speaker 1: her life. I think it's really important, um. And the
Speaker 1: I mean the especially taking the people to Michigan. Um.
Speaker 1: That was I mean, they remembered her, uh and and
Speaker 1: they even they even talk about where she let them
Speaker 1: off um and who she you know, set them up with,
Speaker 1: and her network. But I think the culminating part of
Speaker 1: her life was, uh, the Kansas movement. I think when
Speaker 1: she was trying to get it was one thing that
Speaker 1: was for sure. It was always about the betterment of
Speaker 1: the freed people. And and that's why she wanted to
Speaker 1: get them out of Washington. That movement to get them
Speaker 1: settled in UM places like Michigan and New York is
Speaker 1: one movement. And so she does that until eighteen sixty seven,
Speaker 1: eighteen sixty eight. Then she goes home because the thing
Speaker 1: is is that she's old and she doesn't have a home.
Speaker 1: She's got her house in Harmonia, but her daughter and
Speaker 1: her family, uh, they're living there. So she goes home
Speaker 1: because she's going to try and build a house for herself. Um.
Speaker 1: And then then when that's settled, then she starts the
Speaker 1: movement to Kansas. And that's when the petitions come m
Speaker 1: So um, the petition movement is about Kansas, and that
Speaker 1: is I think that is the culminating point of her life.
Speaker 1: Although she continues to be active. She's very active in
Speaker 1: the anti capital punishment movement and the temperance movement. H.
Speaker 1: But I think that UH, in terms of her service
Speaker 1: to African Americans, it is the petition UH movement to
Speaker 1: create a black homeland in the West, because black homeland
Speaker 1: is is the mantra, right, And then it first starts
Speaker 1: with trying to get them settled in UH and in
Speaker 1: the west that is the Midwest, western New York, and
Speaker 1: then UH Michigan. And also I should point out that
Speaker 1: another group of of these women take people to the
Speaker 1: East as well. So the idea is to provide a homeland.
Speaker 1: And then when that's not as viable, then they focus
Speaker 1: on the Kansas movement. And that's in the eighteen seventies,
Speaker 1: and so that that occupies her for the most part
Speaker 1: in the eighteen seventies, and then in three she dies. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but when she dies. Before she dies, she gives a
Speaker 1: speech to the Michigan legislature m hm um, and that
Speaker 1: is on it's either I think it's it's either on
Speaker 1: capital punishment or temperance. I can't remember. I think it's
Speaker 1: capital punishment. UM. Yeah, Because she has that great UH
Speaker 1: statement where Um, she speaks out against executions, and she says,
Speaker 1: if you want to hang some and hang whiskey, because
Speaker 1: that causes more damage than anything else. Um. And uh,
Speaker 1: and then two years later she she passes away. I'm
Speaker 1: so glad you mentioned that and even that quote, because
Speaker 1: with the life of the Fox Sisters in particular, we're
Speaker 1: going to be talking about how bedeviled they were by
Speaker 1: alcoholism towards the end of their life. Yeah, even in
Speaker 1: that period, Um, we're coming to the end of our time. Um.
Speaker 1: The one question that I really forgot to ask you
Speaker 1: was about the Acroing Convention, which becomes so kind of
Speaker 1: mythologized with you know that kind of the misquote, the
Speaker 1: misquoted line. Um, can you give a brief account of
Speaker 1: the Acuring Convention and how so Journal's kind of most
Speaker 1: famous line actually falls short of expressing her amazing, really
Speaker 1: defiant character. Yeah. Well she went to akron um after
Speaker 1: well before she she was in western New York for
Speaker 1: the eighteen fifty one Anti Slavery Convention, which was held
Speaker 1: in Syracuse. And and then um, then she stayed in
Speaker 1: the area and she was living uh and spending her
Speaker 1: time with the Post family and Amy told her that
Speaker 1: there was going to be a convention. And then the
Speaker 1: Ohio women who were at the Syracuse convention, they were
Speaker 1: just blown away by her, and they said, would you
Speaker 1: come to Ohio and UH and give some anti slavery lectures?
Speaker 1: And that along with what Amy told her about the
Speaker 1: Woman's convention, because you know, the UH year before eighteen fifty,
Speaker 1: they had had the first national Woman's Convention and she
Speaker 1: was a speaker. UM. And so you know, she was
Speaker 1: already on the network. And there was a lot of
Speaker 1: controversy because some of the white women felt that UH
Speaker 1: they were turning the woman's rights movement into an anti
Speaker 1: slavery movement. UM. So there was that conversation going on.
Speaker 1: And UM she went to uh Ohio at the behest
Speaker 1: of UH the abolitionists, but also to go to this
Speaker 1: convention that Amy had told her about UH and she
Speaker 1: UM and she wrote that or had someone write that
Speaker 1: beautiful letter to Amy, you know, saying that you know
Speaker 1: what she did, she wouldn't hung out with the colored
Speaker 1: people in Cleveland, and then she went to UH Ohio
Speaker 1: Akron and UH and met wonderful people just like UH
Speaker 1: Amy said she would. UM and and you know, as
Speaker 1: far as she was concerned, there was no controversy so UM.
Speaker 1: But it was it was very telling, UM, especially in
Speaker 1: terms of the attitudes towards abolition and merging abolition and
Speaker 1: women's rights UM, which it's hard to believe, but that
Speaker 1: was the problem is UM that women, some women saw
Speaker 1: that they should the two causes should not be connected.
Speaker 1: That's what UH was the conventional wisdom at the Akron meeting.
Speaker 1: Because the person who had arranged it was James swiss Ham,
Speaker 1: who's the same person who had criticized the First Woman's
Speaker 1: National Convention for UM talking about abolition there UM and
Speaker 1: so and so Journer went she UM was there with
Speaker 1: her books. She her book had just been published, so
Speaker 1: she was gonna sell books. And it's really interesting when
Speaker 1: she got there, the secretary of the meeting UM saw
Speaker 1: her claim they didn't have any idea who she was,
Speaker 1: were embarrassed that there was a colored woman there. UM.
Speaker 1: And when she saw them, she being so jouring her
Speaker 1: truth and went right over to them, introduced herself and said,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm here to attend the convention and to
Speaker 1: sell some books and UM. And so they bought her
Speaker 1: books and they were kind of embarrassed about her. Um,
Speaker 1: but they bought her books anyway, And the next day
Speaker 1: they had the convention, and so Journer when she wasn't
Speaker 1: on the platform, she liked to sit at the foot
Speaker 1: of the platform, and that way, Uh, she could interject things,
Speaker 1: and and also she could say can I say something? Um,
Speaker 1: So that's what she did. This went on for a day,
Speaker 1: and uh, it was quite a volatile meeting because a
Speaker 1: lot of the men. There were a lot of men
Speaker 1: there and they were a woman's rights was a very
Speaker 1: unpopular cause and uh, and so they were challenging the women,
Speaker 1: and so journal was answering and giving good answers to
Speaker 1: and so finally on the second day she couldn't stand it,
Speaker 1: and so she asked Francis Gage, who was the moderator
Speaker 1: and the president of the convention, if she could speak,
Speaker 1: and um, Gauge. Gauge was a good abolitionist, a Westerner
Speaker 1: and good abolitionist. But you know, abolition women abolitionists have
Speaker 1: to be divided a lot and into various categories. And
Speaker 1: she was a good political abolitionists, um, which meant that
Speaker 1: basically she was a free soil person. Uh. And she hesitated,
Speaker 1: but finally let her speak. UM. And we know, in
Speaker 1: spite of what France as Gage says, and and uh
Speaker 1: and also what's in the history of women's suffrage um,
Speaker 1: that she changed the whole tone of the meeting. UM.
Speaker 1: And in spite of what what I should point, in
Speaker 1: spite of what my colleague Carson maybe says, is that
Speaker 1: you know, none of this really happened. It did happen, um.
Speaker 1: And she did change the tone of the meeting. One
Speaker 1: of her friends soon to be friends, who was a
Speaker 1: student at Oberlin, New Yorker, she and a couple of
Speaker 1: her girlfriends rented a buggy and drove to the meeting.
Speaker 1: So they gave an account of what happened. Uh. And
Speaker 1: that's the firsthand account and and also Marius Robinson's account
Speaker 1: of it. But we at the time um that this
Speaker 1: was that the history of women's suffrage Um, discussion of
Speaker 1: sojournal truth and the speech came out, which was at
Speaker 1: the turn of the twentieth century. That was the only
Speaker 1: record of it we had, aside from what Frances Gage
Speaker 1: wrote twelve years later in eighteen sixty three, in which
Speaker 1: she published UM. But we had no first hand account.
Speaker 1: So when sojourner spoke. I mean it was it was
Speaker 1: really profound. Uh. And she basically established Jesus Christ as
Speaker 1: a feminist um and basically put on record her own
Speaker 1: labor as a woman and as a woman who worked
Speaker 1: like a man. Um and essentially said that you know,
Speaker 1: women had as much right two everything that men had. Um.
Speaker 1: And she put it in practical terms, but she also
Speaker 1: put it in spiritual terms and um, and it was
Speaker 1: it was a profound answer to these men as um.
Speaker 1: What is her name, the Oberlin student um who actually
Speaker 1: after the meeting went on an anti slavery tour with
Speaker 1: soldour in her truth um and she gives an account
Speaker 1: of it and um. And we know, in spite of
Speaker 1: what um the professor who disagrees that it was a
Speaker 1: powerful speech. Um. And and we also know that men
Speaker 1: were opposed to women having their rights. So it is
Speaker 1: controversial because of that theme. Aren't I a woman? Which
Speaker 1: is Francis Gauge's rhetorical phrase. But Francis Gauge and fairness
Speaker 1: to her was a novelist, a short story writer. Uh.
Speaker 1: And she was competing with Harriet Beaterstow, so she wanted
Speaker 1: to give this a rhetorical flourish um. But basically what
Speaker 1: she says in her speech in eighteen sixty three, when
Speaker 1: she the first time she articulates it is so close
Speaker 1: to what sojourn the Truth said that you can't argue
Speaker 1: with that. The only thing you can argue with is
Speaker 1: the phrase ain't I a woman? Um? And the newspapers
Speaker 1: of the time, who uh, basically recounted what happened, I'll
Speaker 1: say something very similar. She said she was a woman. Um.
Speaker 1: I think that's what the New York Tribune says. Um.
Speaker 1: But they all have some phrase in there, some passage
Speaker 1: where she addresses, well, I'm a woman and I do
Speaker 1: this and I do that. So you know, I mean
Speaker 1: Engauge uh simplified it and you know, gave it repetition.
Speaker 1: But you know, to me, that's kind of harmless, um,
Speaker 1: because the idea is the same. If you read Francis
Speaker 1: Gauge as speech and then you read the article in
Speaker 1: the Anti Slavery Bugle um that Marius Robinson wrote, you
Speaker 1: really want other than that phrase. Uh. The spirit is
Speaker 1: still and they're no. There are a couple of things,
Speaker 1: um the um. And I know she got this from Stow.
Speaker 1: She says that so Journal had thirteen children. That's right
Speaker 1: out of here in beach Stow. Um. And and and
Speaker 1: when when Stowe wrote that, so Journer said, you know,
Speaker 1: Mrs Stow lazy and yeah, so she she took that,
Speaker 1: I mean, Francis Gates took that, uh, that passage from
Speaker 1: the article that Stowe had written about So Journal Truth.
Speaker 1: But other than that, it's you know, it is the
Speaker 1: same you know, the same spirit, same information. Um. But
Speaker 1: what's interesting most of all to me is obviously there
Speaker 1: weren't any black women there, otherwise they would not have
Speaker 1: been so shocked when they saw her. Uh. And the
Speaker 1: other thing that seems clear is that there's not a
Speaker 1: whole lot of it wasn't not a whole lot of
Speaker 1: contact regionally speaking between black and white abolitionists as well
Speaker 1: as women's rights activists, because they didn't seem to know
Speaker 1: who So Journal Truth was. That and I found that
Speaker 1: really shocking. Um. But that may be why the abolitionists
Speaker 1: in Ohio wanted her to come. And one thing we know,
Speaker 1: when she left Acarin, everybody knew who she was. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well it's been two hours. I want to be respectful
Speaker 1: of your time, Okay, Yeah, Can I ask you one
Speaker 1: final question to wrap up, Uh, and you kind of
Speaker 1: touched this at the top of our conversation too. But
Speaker 1: just as we're thinking about sojourn her truth life, how
Speaker 1: important is studying spiritualism to understanding sojourn ther truth And
Speaker 1: how important is studying sochour in truth to understanding spiritualism. Um.
Speaker 1: Spiritualism was very dear to Sojourner. Ah. So Journer was
Speaker 1: a woman who was born uh at the tip of
Speaker 1: the eighteenth century. UM, and she was part of a
Speaker 1: different world. I mean in a way, she's almost part
Speaker 1: of the colonial world Mum. And for her spirituality, and
Speaker 1: that makes her very close to africanness or what we
Speaker 1: call africanity. And and africanity is the core of it,
Speaker 1: is spirituality. So it to me it it's almost like
Speaker 1: a no brainer. UM. And spiritualism, how is that different
Speaker 1: from spirituality except that people people want to get in
Speaker 1: touch uh with loved ones who have gone on and
Speaker 1: an African spirituality that is taken as a given Uh,
Speaker 1: that your loved ones not only do they not leave,
Speaker 1: they protect you, they surround you, so they're part of you. UM.
Speaker 1: And so spiritualism for her was an extension of that UH.
Speaker 1: And some of the differences I suppose people would say,
Speaker 1: UH would be the the spiritualists in America tact on
Speaker 1: certain responsibilities to spiritualism um and and certain social problems
Speaker 1: to spiritualism. The spiritualism that arose UH in America, a
Speaker 1: lot of it had to do with, as I would say,
Speaker 1: pain and loss UM. I mean, I think that's how
Speaker 1: a lot of it began is especially with women, because
Speaker 1: it's important to understand spiritualism is very much a part
Speaker 1: of women's rights and the amount of death and society,
Speaker 1: the fact that your child was just as likely to
Speaker 1: die as it was to live. Um. One of the
Speaker 1: abolitionists had ten children, and the first five died. And
Speaker 1: and that's a tremendous amount of UH of stress. And
Speaker 1: one of the things that spiritualism allowed was it was
Speaker 1: the release of that stress because you have the capacity
Speaker 1: to think that you were in touch with these uh children,
Speaker 1: And not only were you in touch with them, but
Speaker 1: they were happy, uh, no matter how they had suffered
Speaker 1: from these horrible childhood diseases that they died from. So
Speaker 1: it was spiritualism was connecting life and death um and
Speaker 1: and and I think that that that's important. Spiritualism was
Speaker 1: important to life and women I think needed that, and
Speaker 1: not only women, but men as well. You know, Abraham Lincoln,
Speaker 1: after his son Willie died, went to a spiritualists um.
Speaker 1: His wife convinced him to go. And she became interested
Speaker 1: in spiritualism because her um, what would you call this
Speaker 1: woman dressmaker? Uh, she was more than a dressmaker, she
Speaker 1: was a confidence. She was a dressmaker, she dressed her hair,
Speaker 1: but she was a former slave and um, and her
Speaker 1: son had passed for white so he could join the
Speaker 1: Union Army at a time when they weren't taking black people.
Speaker 1: And and he was killed almost immediately. And that was
Speaker 1: her only child. And so spiritualism was very important to her.
Speaker 1: And then after Willie Lincoln died, then she introduced Mary
Speaker 1: Todd Lincoln to spiritualism and and and Mary Todd Lincoln
Speaker 1: took it very seriously and even got Abraham Lincoln to
Speaker 1: go to one. Um. It didn't relieve him, but it
Speaker 1: was a form of relief, was a form of solace,
Speaker 1: It was a form of faith. Uh. And so I
Speaker 1: think that spiritualism is really important to understanding the lives
Speaker 1: of these people and their activism. Thank you, that's beautiful. Hey, folks,
Speaker 1: it's Aaron here. I hope today's interview helped you deepen
Speaker 1: your understanding of everything involved in the world of spiritualism.
Speaker 1: But we're not done yet. We have more interviews to
Speaker 1: share with you, so stick around after this brief sponsor
Speaker 1: break to hear a preview of next week's interview. Next
Speaker 1: time on un Obscured. The Catholic Church in New Orleans
Speaker 1: supports the Confederacy very strongly. During the Civil War, there's
Speaker 1: this one very outspoken abolitionist priests who's threatened with excommunication
Speaker 1: and has his church shut down. Priest regular literally would
Speaker 1: refuse to give Eucharist to black Catholic men in Union uniforms.
Speaker 1: There would be ceremonies, the spirits would refer to the
Speaker 1: ceremonies blessing Confederate flags during the Catholic Mass. So the
Speaker 1: Catholic Church locally is in support of the Confederacy even
Speaker 1: during the Union occupation of the city and the spirits
Speaker 1: delivered tons of messages about the materialism and greed of
Speaker 1: the Catholic Church and its priests, that the Catholic Church
Speaker 1: and wants money and secrets, money and secrets, money and secrets.
Speaker 1: A lot Obscured was created by me, Aaron Manky and
Speaker 1: produced by Matt Frederick, Alex Williams, and Josh Thayne in
Speaker 1: partnership with I Heart Radio. Research and writing for this
Speaker 1: season is all the work of my right hand man
Speaker 1: Carl Nellis and the brilliant Chad Lawson composed the brand
Speaker 1: new soundtrack. Learn more about our contributing historians, source material
Speaker 1: and links to our other shows over at history unobscured
Speaker 1: dot com, And until next time, thanks for listening Unobscured
Speaker 1: as a production of I Heart Radio and Aaron Minkey.
Speaker 1: For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit diheart Radio app,
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.