1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:04,200 Speaker 1: Welcomed. Unobscured, a production of I Heart Radio and Aaron Minky. 2 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:12,440 Speaker 1: Our guest today is historian Margaret Washington. She's professor of 3 00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 1: History and American Studies at Cornell University. Her work on 4 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 1: the cultural, intellectual, and religious history of Black Americans has 5 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:24,240 Speaker 1: earned her awards and fellowships from Cornell University, Wesleyan University, 6 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 1: and the National Endowment for the Humanities. Besides speaking at 7 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: high school, summer institutes, museums, parks, and local libraries, Dr 8 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 1: Washington has contributed to numerous documentaries for PBS, the Discovery Channel, 9 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:41,559 Speaker 1: and the History Channel. Her book Sojourner Truths America was 10 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:44,840 Speaker 1: a guide for us not only in following Sojourner truth story, 11 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 1: but in seeing spiritualism within the big picture of American life. 12 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: Researcher Karl Nellis talked with Dr Washington for this season 13 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: of Unobscured. They began their conversation with her perspective on 14 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:00,200 Speaker 1: what it meant to be a spiritualist in nineteenth century America. Guy, 15 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:05,319 Speaker 1: this is the Unobscured interview series for season two. I'm 16 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 1: Aaron Manky. If you were spiritualist in the nineteenth century, 17 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 1: you looked upon life after death as a continuation of 18 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: contact with humans, especially your loved ones. It was a 19 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 1: situation where your contact with people who had passed beyond 20 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: the veil could be instructive, it could be warnings. But 21 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 1: there was this contact with people who had gone on. 22 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:01,559 Speaker 1: It wasn't a break with earth life and then life 23 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 1: in the beyond. So the first important aspect of spiritualism 24 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 1: was this contact between humans who had been left two 25 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 1: mourn and people who had passed on into the spirit world. 26 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 1: Sometimes those contacts were loving, sometimes they were foreboding. But 27 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 1: the most important thing is that there was this contact, 28 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 1: and it took all kinds of forms depending on who 29 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 1: the person was or people you were maintaining your contact 30 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 1: with who had passed on. When people were coming to 31 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:39,519 Speaker 1: a seance, they weren't a medium, say, but they wanted 32 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 1: to take part in the spiritualist practices. What kinds of 33 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:45,120 Speaker 1: things were they looking for? What kind of variety or 34 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 1: there was there In motivations to attend to seance, everyone 35 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:54,639 Speaker 1: had different motivations. Some people went for curiosity, other people 36 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 1: went for a specific goal. There was someone in particular 37 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 1: whom they wanted to have contact with, and so they 38 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 1: were hoping that the medium could channel that individual who 39 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 1: had passed on into some kind of consciousness so that 40 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 1: the living person could communicate with them. And that was 41 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:20,359 Speaker 1: what the majority of people wanted. They wanted contact with, 42 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:23,920 Speaker 1: mostly a loved one, but sometimes it wasn't even a 43 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 1: loved one, it was politician. A lot of spiritualists, especially 44 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:32,800 Speaker 1: the more radical ones, for example, had seances in which 45 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 1: John Quincy Adams, who in the Late Antebellum era which 46 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 1: ends in eighteen sixty one, John Quincy Adams was sort 47 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: of the champion from a political perspective of abolitionism, so 48 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 1: when he died a lot of spiritualists would recall him 49 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 1: and get his advice on what was happening in the 50 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: world politically. So when you think about it like that, 51 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 1: spiritualism is not so much about faith as it is 52 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 1: about politics. But those were the kinds of positions that 53 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 1: people took. And even with Abraham Lincoln, after he passed away, 54 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 1: people channeled him. Then the radical, the white radical John Brown, 55 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:22,119 Speaker 1: the person who inspired Harper's Ferry, was also channeled after 56 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 1: he was executed. So it took a lot of forms. 57 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 1: So that's interesting. When spiritualists were channeling these kinds of 58 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 1: these statesmen political figures. What does that tell us about 59 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 1: the way that spiritualists related to the past or to history. Well, 60 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:47,120 Speaker 1: spiritualists were radicals. They were people aside from their faiths, 61 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 1: and in many cases, I think this is important. In 62 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 1: many cases, even though they were I don't want to 63 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 1: call them religious because they sort of avoided doctrine, but 64 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 1: they were very spiritually oriented. He Even though that was 65 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:04,719 Speaker 1: the case, many of them were not affiliated with any 66 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 1: particular church because they felt the churches were corrupt and 67 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 1: the churches promoted evil practices such as the practice of slavery. 68 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 1: So a lot of people did not see spiritualism specifically 69 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:23,159 Speaker 1: as something that was associated with their faith as much 70 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 1: as it was associated with social life. One of the 71 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 1: most important aspects of having a successful social life was 72 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 1: to have free will. For example, if you were enslaved, 73 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 1: you had no free will. You didn't have the free 74 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: will to go to church, and you didn't have the 75 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 1: free will to raise your own children. You didn't have 76 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:50,719 Speaker 1: the free will to be with a husband. Indeed, you 77 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:53,280 Speaker 1: didn't have the free will to have a legal husband 78 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 1: or wife. These were the kinds of issues that spiritualism opposed. 79 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:00,360 Speaker 1: With the churches. I guess you would say they were 80 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 1: not religious people, even though they were very upright people 81 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 1: and very spiritual people. One of the movements that kind 82 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 1: of seated the ground for spiritualism was kind of a 83 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 1: utopian or a collectivist impulse among many of these radicals 84 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:22,040 Speaker 1: to for model communities or kind of sanctuary communities over 85 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: the course of her life. So journal is involved in Northampton, Hopedale, 86 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 1: and there are others fruit Lands, the United Community, brook Farm. 87 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 1: Could you talk a little bit about what was going 88 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:36,359 Speaker 1: on with these utopian or communalists kind of impulses that 89 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 1: were bringing people to these places. There were I think 90 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 1: a myriad of differences between the utopian communities. Not all 91 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:47,039 Speaker 1: of them were spiritualists. Fruit Lands, the one that was 92 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 1: founded by Bronson Alcott was not spiritualist, the Shaker communities were, 93 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 1: and the ones that Sojourn or Truth became involved in 94 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 1: were except as you mentioned. You mentioned Northampton, but Northampton 95 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 1: had many spiritualists in it, but it was not a 96 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 1: spiritualist community. It was more of a I guess you'd 97 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 1: say it was basically an abolitionist commune, is what it was. 98 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 1: One of the things that united these utopian communities was 99 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 1: a belief in the power of spiritualism, even if they 100 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 1: weren't founded for that particular purpose. The Sojourner when she 101 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: went to Northampton, she found a home for her spiritualism there, 102 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 1: even though it was an abolitionist community. When she moved 103 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 1: to Michigan, and I believe it was eighteen fifty seven, 104 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: she actually settled in a spiritualist community. And so there 105 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: were spiritualist community especially in the West or what we 106 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 1: call today the Midwest. At that point she did want 107 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 1: the spiritual connection in terms of her daily life. So Harmonia, 108 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 1: which was outside of Battle Creek, Michigan, was spiritualist community. 109 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 1: They all weren't founded on the basis of spiritualism, but 110 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 1: they all embraced the ideas of spiritual contact with the 111 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: other world. At that point in the eighteen forties and 112 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 1: fifties were pretty well into Sojourner's life. Um, let's go 113 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: back to the beginning with her. She's she's not born Surjourner. 114 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 1: Truth of course, taking on both parts of that name 115 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 1: is really significant to her life story. But let's start 116 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 1: at the beginning. She was born into slavery in New 117 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 1: York before the nineteenth century downed. So she's a generation 118 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 1: or two older than many of the other women that 119 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: were going to be following for this series talking about spiritualism, 120 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 1: the Fox Sisters corp A hatched Victoria wood Hall and 121 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 1: of Britain. How was the New York of her childhood 122 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 1: different from the New York of the eighteen forties and fifties, 123 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 1: she would say, And actually she did say that when 124 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 1: she was born, there were no ships, there were no steamboats. 125 00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 1: It was a whole different world. She pointed out in 126 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:04,679 Speaker 1: her talks in the eighteen forties and fifties that she 127 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 1: was now living in what she called the modern world, 128 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: but she had been born and raised in a world 129 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 1: that in many ways was not even connected to what 130 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:18,679 Speaker 1: she considered modernity in the anti Bellum era. So it 131 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 1: was very backward in a lot of ways. So during 132 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 1: the truth grew up not wearing shoes. You can imagine 133 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:29,960 Speaker 1: living in rural Hudson Valley, New York in the wintertime 134 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: and not having shoes. But that was the fate of 135 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 1: the enslaved African Dutch people where she grew up, and 136 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 1: that was pretty much her fate until she became a 137 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 1: Christian and obtained her freedom. She was born in seventeen nine, 138 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 1: so basically she's kind of an eighteenth century woman in 139 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 1: that sense, and so that makes her quite different from 140 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 1: the people who were going to become her comrades in 141 00:09:56,720 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 1: the movements that she became involved in. Also, I it's 142 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 1: important to note that her background is Dutch as opposed 143 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:09,560 Speaker 1: to English. That made a difference. At that point, there 144 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 1: weren't that many Dutch. Most of the Dutch were centered 145 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:14,320 Speaker 1: in New York in the Hudson Valley, but it was 146 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 1: a group of people. It was an ethnicity that they 147 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 1: kept to themselves, and um they spoke Dutch. She spoke 148 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:25,080 Speaker 1: Dutch until she was in her late twenties, and it 149 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 1: was quite a different culture. She was not given religious 150 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 1: instruction as a child or even as a young woman, 151 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 1: so she didn't have the religious background that a lot 152 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 1: of African Americans, even enslaved ones who had English mistresses 153 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: and masters, had, So in some ways that made her 154 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 1: kind of like a vessel for Christianity. But on the 155 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:53,839 Speaker 1: other hand, it gave her a kind of a circumspection 156 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 1: about accepting everything, and that along with the we think 157 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 1: that at least she said that her grandmother was born 158 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 1: in Africa and her husband's grandmother was born in Africa, 159 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 1: and spiritualism has interesting connections to what we call africanity. 160 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 1: The idea of people connecting to the other world was 161 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 1: something that Africans took as just common. It's just the 162 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 1: way it was. There really was no break between the 163 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:28,840 Speaker 1: earthly life and the life of the beyond. That made 164 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 1: spiritualism something that she essentially gravitated toward. And as she 165 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 1: would say, she was practicing it before she even knew 166 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: that there was something called spiritualism. You write so beautifully 167 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 1: in the book about West African traditions that weren't broken 168 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:48,560 Speaker 1: by the introduction of Christianity into West Africa, and that 169 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:50,719 Speaker 1: Bell drew on in her early life. Can you talk 170 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:54,679 Speaker 1: about them, maybe in particular in relationship to when Belle, 171 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:58,440 Speaker 1: because she was born Isabella right m when she lost 172 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 1: her father, how did his death shape her life and 173 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:05,680 Speaker 1: her spiritual perspective. She was very close to her father, 174 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 1: who was the headman for this massive landowning family who 175 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:13,959 Speaker 1: at one point in their history, if you can believe this, 176 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:18,079 Speaker 1: owned two million acres of New York Land. Her father 177 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 1: was the headman. He was highly respected, he was half 178 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 1: mohawk in spite of the fact that he was highly 179 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 1: respected by his owners. And as a matter of fact, 180 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 1: after his owner died, he wrote that he was called 181 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 1: bomb free, which was a combination of the Dutch a 182 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 1: word bomb and the English word free free tree bomb 183 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 1: meaning tree. So he was supposed to be taken care 184 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 1: of once his owner passed away, and he left instructions 185 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:49,080 Speaker 1: for that, and the record shows that for three or 186 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:55,200 Speaker 1: four years after the owner passed away, the owner's sons 187 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: did take care of him. Then it's pretty clear that 188 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: they're not to get care of him, and then he 189 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 1: his wife has died. Belle's mother has passed away, so 190 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 1: he's basically being led around from pillar to post. He 191 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 1: loses his eyesight, and she is enslaved by other people 192 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 1: and she has to go from one place to another 193 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 1: to find him. This goes on for a number of years, 194 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 1: and they were very close. She and her younger brother 195 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:29,680 Speaker 1: were the only two remaining children that they were allowed 196 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 1: to keep, and the others ten or twelve had been 197 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 1: sold away. She was very close to her father. When 198 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:40,960 Speaker 1: he was sort of left to offend for himself, she 199 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:46,559 Speaker 1: would find him in various places and he would bemoan 200 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:51,440 Speaker 1: his fate, and she told him that this was her 201 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:54,200 Speaker 1: prediction that they were going to get their freedom pretty 202 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 1: soon and she would take care of him. And of 203 00:13:56,559 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 1: course he died before that happened, and she was devastated 204 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 1: by his death. He froze to death alone, and the family, 205 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 1: the Dutch family called the Hardenburgh's, wanted to recognize his 206 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 1: faithful service. They didn't recognize his service when he was 207 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 1: alive and it could have helped him, but after he 208 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 1: died they wanted to have a funeral, which was highly unusual. 209 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: Dutch people didn't have funerals for former slaves, but in 210 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 1: recognition of old bomb free service to the family, they 211 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 1: wanted to have a funeral. They invited all of the 212 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 1: African dues people into the area for the funeral and 213 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 1: they had He got a box, that is to say, 214 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 1: he was buried in a coffin a pine box. The 215 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 1: funeral consisted of this pine box and lots of rum. 216 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 1: And that was sort of a high falutint funeral for 217 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 1: a slave. For Bell, it was so disgusting. She remembered 218 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: that she always said that throughout her life, she and 219 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 1: her father talked to each other. She maintained that she 220 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: was channeling her father on many occasions. She actually when 221 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 1: she went to the utopian community. She visited utopian communities 222 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 1: in the West, and she gave a talk about her 223 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 1: father at one of them. I believe it was in Wisconsin. Yes, 224 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 1: it was a Wisconsin Utopian community where she spoke about 225 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: what had happened. That's where she gave the story of 226 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 1: old Bomfree and how she channeled him when everything's got 227 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:38,080 Speaker 1: really difficult for her. It's an interesting story because with 228 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:42,520 Speaker 1: her father, according to her, being half Mohawk, then you've 229 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 1: got the indigenous spiritualism involved in it too. But that 230 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 1: was very important to her. He was her shining light. 231 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 1: She makes this very clear in her narrative of how 232 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 1: important he was to her. Would you tell the story 233 00:15:55,960 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 1: of Belle emancipating herself and walking to freedom. She was 234 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 1: a hard working young woman. She worked in the house, 235 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 1: She worked in the yard, She worked in the fields. 236 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 1: She milked cows, she fed the chickens, she cooked, she cleaned. 237 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 1: According to her owners, the man who owned her for 238 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 1: eighteen years, John Dumont. According to his daughter, she was 239 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 1: the champion cradler wheat cradler in their neighborhood. She could 240 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 1: throw the weed up in the air and have it 241 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 1: wrapped before it hit the ground. That was Belle, and 242 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 1: we get a sense of that from her famous Akron 243 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 1: Ohio speech where she talks about all the works she 244 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 1: did that was very important. She was a hard working 245 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 1: person and her owner used to say that she was 246 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 1: better to him than a man, and he promised her 247 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 1: her freedom early because she worked so hard. In her 248 00:16:55,840 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 1: zeal to continue to work hard under this promise of freedom, 249 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:08,680 Speaker 1: she cut off her index finger with a scythe while 250 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:11,880 Speaker 1: she was working. That meant that she couldn't work as hard, 251 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 1: but she continued to work. The time came for her owner, Dumont, 252 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: to honor his promise of freedom to her. The state 253 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:26,360 Speaker 1: of New York had decreed that in eighteen seven, all 254 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:30,200 Speaker 1: adults enslaved people would be free. He had promised to 255 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 1: free her early a year early before that. So she 256 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 1: went to him in to claim her promise, and he said, oh, no, 257 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 1: I can't do that because you didn't work as hard 258 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 1: as you were supposed to. She said, well, I had 259 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 1: a diseased hand I couldn't as well. You still didn't 260 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:51,920 Speaker 1: do it, so I'm not going to honor my promise. 261 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:56,879 Speaker 1: So Belle was distressed, and she had created a little 262 00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:00,439 Speaker 1: island in the middle of the river, and that was 263 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:02,720 Speaker 1: where she would go and talk to God. She had 264 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 1: no religious instruction except what her mother gave her, and 265 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 1: her mother's religious instruction was a kind of mysticism, where 266 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 1: you speak to God and God speaks back to you. 267 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:17,159 Speaker 1: She went to her little island area and she asked 268 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: God what she should do because he had broken his promise, 269 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:25,639 Speaker 1: and God told her she should leave. She said, well, 270 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 1: how can I leave? They'll see me, and God told 271 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: her to leave. Just before daybreak, when everyone was still asleep. 272 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:37,639 Speaker 1: She did. She had an infant, a nursing infant. She 273 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 1: took her infant and she fled. She went to the 274 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:44,440 Speaker 1: home of a Quaker who was unable to help her, 275 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:46,680 Speaker 1: but he sent her to someone who did help her, 276 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 1: who was also a Dutchman. He said that he would 277 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 1: intercede on her behalf. And so when Dumont came for 278 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 1: her and told her that she had to come back, 279 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 1: she said, I'm not going because you broke your mus 280 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 1: and you owe me this year of service. He threatened 281 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:07,160 Speaker 1: to take her to jail, and she said, okay, I'll 282 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 1: go to jail, but I will not go back with you. 283 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 1: And then the Dutchman who had offered her sanctuary, whose 284 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 1: name was Isaac van Wagenen, interceded and he said, how 285 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 1: much does Bell owe you? He gave him twenty dollars 286 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:28,159 Speaker 1: for the remainder of Bell's year and five dollars for 287 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 1: Bell's baby. That is how she got her freedom, and 288 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:35,679 Speaker 1: she took the name of van Wagenen, and so she 289 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 1: became Isabella van wagon and until she became so journal truth. 290 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 1: Can you describe how the role in her life, that 291 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:48,160 Speaker 1: her faith, that her talking with God, that her following, 292 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:52,000 Speaker 1: her guiding light, her father. What role did that faith, 293 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: that spirituality, that special practice play in the course of 294 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 1: the next year or two when she was fighting to 295 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:03,400 Speaker 1: get her son back. That was probably she would call 296 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:10,480 Speaker 1: that her moment of sanctification. She had been converted. After 297 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 1: she left Dumont and she went to live with the 298 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 1: van wagon Ins, she had, uh, well what what we 299 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:23,440 Speaker 1: call in the Baptist church. She backslid. God had helped 300 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 1: her obtain her freedom, and she was very thankful, but 301 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:32,440 Speaker 1: now she wanted to go back to bondage to basically 302 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 1: participate in a festival called the Pinkster Festival. She was 303 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 1: willing to go back to her former owner's farm to 304 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 1: participate in this revelry. The very very Uh important festival 305 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: among the African Dutch people actually comes out of Dutch 306 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 1: religious culture, but the African Dutch made it their own. 307 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 1: This was essentially her not being thankful for what God 308 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: had done for her, and so at that point when 309 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 1: she was trying to go away to celebrate with her 310 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:07,919 Speaker 1: friends and drink and party and have a good time, 311 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 1: that's when she had her first epiphany and her first conversion, 312 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:16,359 Speaker 1: when God struck her as she said, God burnt me 313 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 1: and made me wilt like a cabbage leaf. She didn't go, 314 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: but she did realize that her conversion meant that there 315 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 1: were certain activities that she no longer engaged in. So 316 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:37,440 Speaker 1: that was her conversion. Her sanctification came after the conversion 317 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 1: when Uh, the man she was staying with, Mr van 318 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 1: Wagen and came home and told her that he had 319 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:47,200 Speaker 1: heard that her child, her son, five year old son, 320 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:50,720 Speaker 1: who was still in bondage, had been sold. And this 321 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,360 Speaker 1: was something that was very common in New York. New 322 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 1: York children were still enslaved and so New York slave 323 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 1: owners so that they wouldn't who's their profit, We're selling 324 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:07,120 Speaker 1: these children to the South, which was illegal, and that's 325 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 1: what had happened to her boy. And she was outraged. 326 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 1: And this is this is our second sense of what 327 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:17,639 Speaker 1: a powerhouse this woman is going to be. The first 328 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 1: one is when she challenges her owner and flees. The 329 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 1: second one is when she will not accept the fact 330 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 1: that her son has been sold and and she basically 331 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 1: campaigns all over the neighborhood of Ulster County, rilling people 332 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: about this, and especially the Quakers because it is against 333 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 1: the law. Um. But what enslaved woman has the wherewithal 334 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:49,119 Speaker 1: to challenge the slave power? Well Bell did and um, 335 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 1: and she got help from the Quakers, and she eventually 336 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,440 Speaker 1: was able to get her son back. But she raised 337 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,400 Speaker 1: a huge ruck buss. A lot of the slaveholders were 338 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:05,159 Speaker 1: angry with her for having done this, and so she 339 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:11,439 Speaker 1: felt very she felt very compromised, very vulnerable. Um. But 340 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:14,120 Speaker 1: she had told them that she was going to get 341 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 1: her son back, and um, the owners had said, you 342 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,359 Speaker 1: can't get him back. But she with the help of 343 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:23,439 Speaker 1: the Quakers. So it's a very convoluted story. But the 344 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 1: Quakers were adamantly anti slavery, and they helped her get 345 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 1: a lawyer and eventually get this boy back. Within a 346 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:37,240 Speaker 1: year he was back, and when she got him back, 347 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 1: she went to court and got him back. He was 348 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:43,920 Speaker 1: covered with bruises. He told her that the man who 349 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:46,640 Speaker 1: had purchased him, who was also a New Yorker who 350 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:52,399 Speaker 1: had moved to Alabama, had had had his horse hoof 351 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 1: the boy. The boy her son's name was Peter. In 352 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 1: the face, he had a big gash in his forehead 353 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:02,919 Speaker 1: where the man's horse had hoofed him, and and he 354 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:06,199 Speaker 1: showed her all the bruises on him, and she was 355 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:10,679 Speaker 1: so angry that she asked God for retribution, and she 356 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 1: told him to render unto them double for everything they 357 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:19,320 Speaker 1: had done to her son. That was, as far as 358 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 1: she was concerned, that was her curse that she was 359 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 1: leveling against this family. And within a few months, this 360 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:34,440 Speaker 1: is this was her sanctification, as far as she was concerned, 361 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 1: She had asked God to curse this family. But in 362 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:41,639 Speaker 1: a few months, the woman who was married to the 363 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 1: man who had sold her son and brutalized him, was 364 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 1: killed by her husband and in a very brutal way 365 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 1: he Basically, according to uh the narrative, he had cut 366 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 1: her wind pipe out in a drunken fit. He was 367 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 1: an alcoholic. It was a double whammy because her son, 368 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:07,119 Speaker 1: Peter Bell's son, had told her that the only person 369 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,439 Speaker 1: who was nice to him while he was there in 370 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 1: Alabama was this young woman, miss Eliza, who was also 371 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:20,199 Speaker 1: a New Yorker, But she had tried to help the 372 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 1: little boy and had said she wished that he could 373 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:27,320 Speaker 1: go back to his mother. In a way, you know, 374 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 1: she was innocent. I mean, she had married a New 375 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 1: Yorker who had become a slaveholder, and they were living 376 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:39,640 Speaker 1: in Alabama, but she was trying to help Peter. Nonetheless, 377 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 1: when Peter was brought back to New York, the owner, 378 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 1: the the former owner, her husband was so angry, and 379 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 1: he was an alcoholic anyway, that he took it out 380 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 1: on her and killed her. And when Isabella, when Belle 381 00:25:55,720 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 1: heard this, she said, this is what God is doing 382 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 1: on my behest. But I didn't mean for good to 383 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 1: go that far. And the fact that this young woman 384 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 1: had died and that Belle had asked God to curse 385 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:19,200 Speaker 1: the family to her was God's way of I guess 386 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 1: giving her a a special dispensation, even though she said, 387 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,959 Speaker 1: the language of my heart was I didn't mean for 388 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 1: you to do so much, God, but I couldn't question God. 389 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,919 Speaker 1: So for her, that put her in a higher state 390 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:42,200 Speaker 1: of spirituality. So she went from being converted to being sanctified. 391 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,960 Speaker 1: And she told this story on the lecture circuit in 392 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 1: New York City where she she she left uh Ulster County, 393 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 1: UM the Hudson Valley within a year after her son 394 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:58,680 Speaker 1: was returned, and she told that story over and over again, 395 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 1: and it made her a pot pular preacher in New 396 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:06,879 Speaker 1: York City, a revival preacher. So even before she became 397 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 1: so journal truth is Isabella van Wagon, and she was 398 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:14,359 Speaker 1: preaching in New York City and telling her experience of 399 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 1: conversion and sanctification. So that was her her background before 400 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 1: she became the woman whom we would come to know well. 401 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 1: And I'm interested more in that time because as she's 402 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:31,920 Speaker 1: working and preaching in New York City through the eighteen thirties, Um, 403 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 1: she's working with people like she meets people like David Ruggles, UM, 404 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 1: and she's really preaching social reform. Um. Can you talk 405 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:43,879 Speaker 1: a little bit about what life in New York City 406 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 1: was like at that time, who was so journal addressing? 407 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,879 Speaker 1: Who is she preaching too? Well? When she went to 408 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 1: New York, the Methodists heard her preach in um Ulster County, 409 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 1: where she was born and raised, and they essentially said, 410 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 1: you know you're your message is too important for you 411 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 1: to be here, So they took her there. Uh, they 412 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:09,480 Speaker 1: found a Methodist. I can't call him a preacher because 413 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 1: he was not accepted by the church. These people were out. 414 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:19,720 Speaker 1: There were Methodists who were shunning the Methodist Church because 415 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:23,440 Speaker 1: they felt the Methodist Church was becoming too respectable. So 416 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:25,640 Speaker 1: these were the people that she hooked up with as 417 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,160 Speaker 1: soon as she got to New York City, people who 418 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 1: were dissenting from the Methodist Church, Methodists who were dissenting 419 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:37,639 Speaker 1: from Methodism. And so that's where um she got her contact. 420 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 1: And New York City was a vibrant place for African Americans, 421 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 1: but it was also a tragic place because it was 422 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:54,920 Speaker 1: a situation where African American adults were converging onto the 423 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 1: city UM because that represented freedom and it represented mobility 424 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 1: and a represented opportunity. But they had to leave their children, 425 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 1: just as Bell had to leave her children. She left 426 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 1: her daughters but she took her son, She took her 427 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: a little boy with her. But the others uh remained 428 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 1: in Ulster County, and so New York Black population, which 429 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:25,280 Speaker 1: was very large, found that there were opportunities to learn 430 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 1: to read, there are opportunities to set up your own churches, 431 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:34,760 Speaker 1: but there were very few jobs other than domestic work. UH. 432 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 1: And so that's what that's what they did, a lot, 433 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 1: a lot of domestic work. But it was a very 434 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 1: impoverished situation for free black people in New York City 435 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 1: at that time, UM. And in many ways it would 436 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,720 Speaker 1: only get worse as far as the socio economic situation 437 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:56,360 Speaker 1: was concerned, but that would give rise to a very 438 00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:00,800 Speaker 1: vibrant political culture on the part of Africa Americans to 439 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 1: challenge this. So it was a time of hope uh. 440 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:08,680 Speaker 1: And it was a time in many cases of despair. 441 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 1: People in belt situation, that is, women coming out of 442 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 1: the farming areas trying to get jobs, often found themselves 443 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:26,880 Speaker 1: sometimes doublings as sex workers. UM. It was sometimes living 444 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 1: uh in slum situations and if they were domestics, almost 445 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:39,320 Speaker 1: always of the time living in the home of their 446 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 1: employer UM, which meant that they were on call all 447 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:47,160 Speaker 1: the time, so it's very confining life. As a matter 448 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 1: of fact, a lot of the black leadership encouraged people 449 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,960 Speaker 1: black people to stay in the countryside and not come 450 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 1: to the city because they were crowding into the cities. 451 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 1: There weren't enough job I was a kind of hopelessness. 452 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:06,360 Speaker 1: But people were determined to make a better life, and 453 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 1: so they were coming anyway. And so she was part 454 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:12,040 Speaker 1: of that movement of people coming into the city. And 455 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 1: so she was determined to make a better life for herself. 456 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,240 Speaker 1: And I guess I should point out that she did 457 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:24,400 Speaker 1: have a husband, but she left him Um when he 458 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 1: wouldn't come with her because he was an adult, he 459 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 1: was free. He would not come with her. So she 460 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:35,960 Speaker 1: left UM and she was determined to not be a 461 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:40,080 Speaker 1: casualty of the city. And she says that I refused 462 00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,760 Speaker 1: to bow to the filth of the city. And she 463 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 1: had in a way, she had sort of a a 464 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 1: protective group around her because these Methodists were so interested 465 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,479 Speaker 1: in her that they helped her find a position, and 466 00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:02,000 Speaker 1: then she also worshiped with them, so um her I 467 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,959 Speaker 1: guess she had a kind of specialness about her because 468 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:11,480 Speaker 1: of her experiences, because of her capacity to communicate, keeping 469 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:15,000 Speaker 1: in mind that her English is not very good, but 470 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 1: she's able to communicate with him even with her broken 471 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 1: English and her Dutch brogue, in a way so that 472 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:27,480 Speaker 1: they find her incredibly inspiring. Uh. And she becomes a 473 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 1: Revivalist preacher. Uh. And I don't know how many African 474 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:40,360 Speaker 1: Americans she reached, um, because she was a countrywoman and 475 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:42,800 Speaker 1: so there wouldn't be much respect and and of course 476 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:45,760 Speaker 1: she couldn't read and write, and she was Dutch, um, 477 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 1: so there wouldn't be much respect for that. But as 478 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:52,280 Speaker 1: far as these Methodists who were coming into the city 479 00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 1: were concerned, her witness was so powerful uh that, as 480 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 1: one person said it, everybody in the city was running 481 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 1: after her. So so Um, how does she go from 482 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 1: being a Methodist revival preacher to joining the Kingdom of Matthias? Um. 483 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 1: The Kingdom of Matthias members, we're Methodists, Um. They were 484 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,960 Speaker 1: French Methodists. The Methodist Church, as I mentioned before, was 485 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 1: becoming respectable. Um. And the people who were involved in 486 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 1: cult groups like Matthias, and Matthias group was not the 487 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:49,160 Speaker 1: only one. UM. A lot of the we called these 488 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:54,760 Speaker 1: people perfectionists. Uh. And a lot of the Perfectionist. Organizations 489 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,320 Speaker 1: that grew out of this started in the Methodist Church. 490 00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:01,200 Speaker 1: None of them went as far as the Kingdom of Matthias. 491 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:07,200 Speaker 1: But if you consider the Oneida Community UM in Oneida, 492 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:11,759 Speaker 1: New York, they had many of the same religious principles 493 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:16,440 Speaker 1: that Matthias had. They had multiple marriage UM, which was 494 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 1: really the hallmark UH in terms of outrage with the 495 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:27,320 Speaker 1: Matthias Commune, but that was not unusual with these French cults. 496 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:32,000 Speaker 1: So they all started out as Methodists. The Methodist religion was, 497 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:35,680 Speaker 1: they called themselves when it was first founded, the religion 498 00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:39,920 Speaker 1: that warms the heart. And when it was initially founded, 499 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:45,440 Speaker 1: it was opposed to slavery. UH. They believed in salvation 500 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:48,520 Speaker 1: being open to everyone, so it was it was an 501 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:54,800 Speaker 1: egalitarian denomination. By the Lady eighteen twenties, the Methodists wanted 502 00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:58,720 Speaker 1: to become just like High Church. They wanted to become 503 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:05,080 Speaker 1: like Presbyterians, Congregationalists, and so the features of Methodism that 504 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:09,200 Speaker 1: had made it a religion that warms the heart, they 505 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:12,759 Speaker 1: wanted to divest the church of those so there would 506 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:17,120 Speaker 1: be no clapping, no loud singing, all the things that 507 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 1: made Methodism a religion of expression. Those UH were left 508 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 1: by the wayside, um and concerned for the poor those 509 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,799 Speaker 1: were left by the wayside. And so people who were 510 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:35,560 Speaker 1: Methodists objected to this, so they left the Methodist Church 511 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:41,880 Speaker 1: uh and founded these uh little perfectionist cells, and the 512 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:46,600 Speaker 1: Matthias Kingdom grew out of one of those. And so 513 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:51,160 Speaker 1: Belle was a Methodist and she was the kind of person. 514 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:53,280 Speaker 1: I think it's she was the kind of person who 515 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:58,680 Speaker 1: she lived on the fringe. UH. And so when her 516 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:04,120 Speaker 1: friends begin and to question the Methodist Church in favor 517 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:12,279 Speaker 1: of helping like wayward women, um, going into the slums 518 00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:18,360 Speaker 1: of Five Points and helping people these kinds of activities 519 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:21,520 Speaker 1: that the church had been involved in previously, they wanted 520 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:26,760 Speaker 1: to continue that. And so uh, it's her early reform 521 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,920 Speaker 1: and it is it is important to see these French 522 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,960 Speaker 1: groups as reformists, because they were and they were also 523 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:43,040 Speaker 1: opposed to slavery. So UM the Matthias Commune was an 524 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:48,120 Speaker 1: extreme of dissension within the Methodist Church, but it wasn't 525 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:51,480 Speaker 1: the only one. They went farther than a lot of others. 526 00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:55,759 Speaker 1: But um still you have to see them within the 527 00:36:55,840 --> 00:37:01,439 Speaker 1: tradition of people like um. The founder of Oneida, John 528 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:07,360 Speaker 1: Humphrey Noise UM, his organization, which grew out of the 529 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:11,200 Speaker 1: Methodist and the Congregational Church, also believed in a multiple 530 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:17,600 Speaker 1: marriage and spirit matching UM, and Bell was a spiritualist. 531 00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:23,960 Speaker 1: So the idea of UM, which was Germane to a 532 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:28,640 Speaker 1: lot of these French organizations coming out of the churches, 533 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:34,560 Speaker 1: the idea that your spirit match is more important than 534 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:40,120 Speaker 1: your legal marriage. They felt that this was supported by scripture, 535 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:46,080 Speaker 1: and Matthias took it to another level UM. But he 536 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:49,640 Speaker 1: wasn't the only one who did that. Can you describe 537 00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:52,880 Speaker 1: the way that her experience in the Kingdom of Matthias 538 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,839 Speaker 1: Uh influenced Bells thinking going forward? What did she take 539 00:37:56,840 --> 00:38:02,120 Speaker 1: away from that experience? UM? For one thing, I think 540 00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:12,480 Speaker 1: it further empowered her UM because she was targeted UM 541 00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:19,000 Speaker 1: by the the woman in the Matthias commune who UM 542 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:22,839 Speaker 1: basically owned the mansion that they lived in, and Uh 543 00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:28,359 Speaker 1: was the one who was actually sleeping with father Matthias UM. 544 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:34,000 Speaker 1: She had targeted Bell as the person who was responsible 545 00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:37,040 Speaker 1: for the death of one of the other cult leaders, 546 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:40,239 Speaker 1: when in fact he had died of a fit. But 547 00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:44,759 Speaker 1: she did this to deflect blame Uh from and to 548 00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:48,520 Speaker 1: cover up her sexuality with Matthias. So she wanted to 549 00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,800 Speaker 1: put the blame on the colored woman, and that would 550 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:56,120 Speaker 1: make sense to the average white New Yorker because part 551 00:38:56,160 --> 00:39:01,640 Speaker 1: of the attitudes toward black women was that they were 552 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:06,600 Speaker 1: loose women. I mean, that was just common Um thought. 553 00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:10,799 Speaker 1: And so that's what she played on. So bell was 554 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:14,960 Speaker 1: in a vulnerable position. She essentially had not done anything 555 00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:21,960 Speaker 1: except believe in the significance of the the cult. The 556 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:28,200 Speaker 1: woman who had basically committed adultery. UM was trying to 557 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:35,000 Speaker 1: deflect the blame, and Belle had the wherewithal to see 558 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:41,759 Speaker 1: what was going on, and she was undaunted, and she says, 559 00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:45,000 Speaker 1: it's a wonderful quote. I've got the truth on my side, 560 00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:49,239 Speaker 1: and I can crush them with the truth. And so 561 00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:53,040 Speaker 1: she was prepared to go to court. They were going 562 00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:58,880 Speaker 1: to have a trial because Um, after exhuming this man's body, Uh, 563 00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:04,080 Speaker 1: they believed he had been poisoned, and the victim the 564 00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:09,560 Speaker 1: poison the culprit appared appeared to be Belle, according to 565 00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:16,880 Speaker 1: the adulteress and her husband Um. Until Belle was completely 566 00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:22,319 Speaker 1: ready to follow that trajectory because she knew where it 567 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:24,400 Speaker 1: was going to lead. It was going to lead to 568 00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:28,640 Speaker 1: the city of New York, seeing that one of their 569 00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:36,040 Speaker 1: own upper class women was actually the adulteress UM. And 570 00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:39,040 Speaker 1: so she was prepared And one of the ways in 571 00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:42,200 Speaker 1: which she got prepared is UM. She went to an 572 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:47,320 Speaker 1: editor and told her story of the commune UM, which 573 00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:52,759 Speaker 1: which I'm in the process of UM re re reproducing, 574 00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:58,799 Speaker 1: republishing UM. Her story of what happened UM, and it 575 00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:02,920 Speaker 1: is a main easing the kinds of her. Her recall 576 00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:08,000 Speaker 1: is impeccable UM, and it can be borne out by 577 00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:12,920 Speaker 1: historical fact that what was going on in this this 578 00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:17,799 Speaker 1: particular common communits the newspapers are also important in this. 579 00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:24,080 Speaker 1: But she is adamant that she can prove that she 580 00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:28,360 Speaker 1: has done nothing wrong UM, and that UM this was 581 00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:32,680 Speaker 1: something that was planted because of race and UH and 582 00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:39,400 Speaker 1: the cultural opprobrium that African American women experience in American society. 583 00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:44,760 Speaker 1: So she was up to the task. She sued them 584 00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:51,399 Speaker 1: for defamation of character and she won. And so when 585 00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:55,239 Speaker 1: she says, I can crush them with the truth, that's 586 00:41:55,239 --> 00:42:00,239 Speaker 1: exactly what she did UH, this UM narrative of the 587 00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:06,160 Speaker 1: goings on in the Kingdom where the narrative was published. UM. 588 00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:10,800 Speaker 1: She won the suit and the adultresss husband who had 589 00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:16,840 Speaker 1: basically slandered her, had to pay uh, I think twenty 590 00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:20,680 Speaker 1: five or thirty five dollars to her for slandering her 591 00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:26,960 Speaker 1: and apologize. UM. But on the downside, this was in 592 00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:31,360 Speaker 1: all the newspapers and and she was a revival preacher, 593 00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:36,719 Speaker 1: so she was known in the community. And UM that 594 00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:41,120 Speaker 1: affected her reputation, There's no question about that. UH. And 595 00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:47,040 Speaker 1: even though she was the trial that occurred, UH, they 596 00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:51,600 Speaker 1: stopped it and dismissed the charges before they allowed her 597 00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:57,160 Speaker 1: to testify. UM, and she never she was never charged 598 00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:00,319 Speaker 1: with anything because they didn't want her to go to 599 00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:04,440 Speaker 1: the witness stand after this book came out, and so 600 00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:09,120 Speaker 1: they dropped the charges on everyone. So she was exonerated, 601 00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:15,000 Speaker 1: but her reputation had suffered. And more importantly, what she 602 00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:19,279 Speaker 1: found out and what she basically articulated, was that she 603 00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:27,000 Speaker 1: had allowed the Charlatan two dictate the words of the 604 00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:32,960 Speaker 1: scripture to her, and UM, he would read and then 605 00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:37,240 Speaker 1: he would interpret the reading, and she believed his interpretation 606 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:40,840 Speaker 1: and UH, and she never forgave herself for that. And 607 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:44,480 Speaker 1: as a result of that, she decided that she would 608 00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:48,799 Speaker 1: never first of all, never ask an adult to read 609 00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:53,160 Speaker 1: the Bible to her only children. And secondly, she would 610 00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:57,919 Speaker 1: never accept anyone's interpretation of the Bible except her own. 611 00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:07,160 Speaker 1: M So that the situation with Matthias was over by 612 00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:13,200 Speaker 1: eight it was still gonna be almost five years before 613 00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:17,160 Speaker 1: she was going to claim her name of Sojourner Truth. 614 00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:20,520 Speaker 1: So she stayed in the city Uh and UH and 615 00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:23,360 Speaker 1: did her preaching and her prayer meeting and her working, 616 00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:28,000 Speaker 1: but she was never as engaged in reform efforts as 617 00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:33,359 Speaker 1: she was before that. Yeah, so when does when does 618 00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:36,920 Speaker 1: Isabella van wagon and becomes Sojourner Truth? And what's that 619 00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:42,000 Speaker 1: process like for her? Um? Part of it has to 620 00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:46,120 Speaker 1: do with her son Peter, who grew up in the 621 00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:51,759 Speaker 1: city UM with her and became like, oh, I guess 622 00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:54,440 Speaker 1: you'd say, you just really really was. Peter was a 623 00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:59,280 Speaker 1: little gangster UM and that caused her a tremendous amount 624 00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:03,279 Speaker 1: of angst it uh and one way he landed on 625 00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:07,160 Speaker 1: his feet. In another way he ended tragically. But in 626 00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:13,839 Speaker 1: terms of landing on his feet. The pastor of a 627 00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:18,719 Speaker 1: prominent UH Episcopal church who was also a very important 628 00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:22,960 Speaker 1: Black activists. His his role in the community was to 629 00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:28,600 Speaker 1: help young black boys UM get a foothold in life. 630 00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:31,880 Speaker 1: And one of the ways in which young black boys 631 00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:37,239 Speaker 1: did that was to go to see forty of the 632 00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:43,320 Speaker 1: seamen in America at this time. We're black and so um. 633 00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:45,720 Speaker 1: It was a way for parents to get their sons 634 00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:48,640 Speaker 1: out of harm's way while they matured. And then when 635 00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:52,680 Speaker 1: they came back, if they came back um, then uh, 636 00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:57,920 Speaker 1: they would be able to handle life. So Peter Williams 637 00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:04,640 Speaker 1: job was to find seaman positions for boys who would 638 00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:09,479 Speaker 1: be were in trouble. And so that's what saved Peter um. 639 00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:12,960 Speaker 1: And he went off to sea in eighteen thirty nine, 640 00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:18,040 Speaker 1: wrote his mother beautiful letters, UM and um was coming 641 00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:22,880 Speaker 1: back a changed man. But he never came back. He 642 00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:26,840 Speaker 1: was due to come back in eighteen forty three and 643 00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:30,919 Speaker 1: he did not come back. Um. I traced the ship 644 00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:35,239 Speaker 1: that he was on and it had some issues. One 645 00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:39,440 Speaker 1: of the issues was smallpox. Another issue was a mutiny. 646 00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:41,480 Speaker 1: And he wrote her and said that he had been 647 00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:46,080 Speaker 1: disciplined for trying to help people on the boat and 648 00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:51,319 Speaker 1: um he um was had gotten in trouble, but he 649 00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:53,480 Speaker 1: was okay now. And that was the last letter she 650 00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:59,960 Speaker 1: got from him. So he either succumbed to smallpox, maybe 651 00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:03,759 Speaker 1: he was beaten, we don't know. But he never came back. 652 00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:06,600 Speaker 1: He was due to come back in eighteen forty three. 653 00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:11,080 Speaker 1: And I think that that is telling because that is 654 00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:15,760 Speaker 1: the same time when she leaves the city and becomes 655 00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:20,359 Speaker 1: Sojourner Truth. So I think it's a she's already very distressed. Um, 656 00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:25,560 Speaker 1: she's not making as much spiritual progress as she was, 657 00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:30,759 Speaker 1: Like she's confused, but she's there waiting for her son, 658 00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:35,520 Speaker 1: and her son does not come back. And uh. In 659 00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:43,680 Speaker 1: May of eighteen forty three, denoted literary um author who 660 00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:47,760 Speaker 1: is now the editor of the New York City anti 661 00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:52,160 Speaker 1: slavery newspaper, The Anti Slavery Standard, writes this little article 662 00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:57,640 Speaker 1: in the Standard about a colored woman giving a speech 663 00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:02,840 Speaker 1: at the Colored Method Church and it she says that 664 00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:07,759 Speaker 1: it is the most profound speech you could imagine. And 665 00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:11,279 Speaker 1: she says that the colored woman was born in New 666 00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:17,799 Speaker 1: York slavery um and she talked about her experiences as 667 00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:23,640 Speaker 1: a slave and it was extremely powerful. Well, two weeks later, 668 00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:30,759 Speaker 1: so Journer Truth is in Brooklyn as Sojourner Truth, and 669 00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:35,760 Speaker 1: so I am positive that the woman that Lydia Mariah 670 00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:44,399 Speaker 1: Child is writing about. And the Standard is so Journer Truth. Um. 671 00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:48,000 Speaker 1: And by the way, Lydia Murria Child and Soldier her 672 00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:51,520 Speaker 1: Truth become very good friends in the anti slavery movement, 673 00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:57,680 Speaker 1: in the women's rights movement. Um. So these events Peter's 674 00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:02,520 Speaker 1: uh scheduled return earn which doesn't happen. That's in the 675 00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:06,640 Speaker 1: spring of eighteen forty three. The little speech at the 676 00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:10,920 Speaker 1: Colored Methodist Church is in May of eighteen forty three. 677 00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:14,800 Speaker 1: And in May of eighteen forty three she takes the 678 00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:18,880 Speaker 1: Brooklyn Ferry to Long Island. Uh. And that's there she 679 00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:21,800 Speaker 1: meets the Quaker and tells the Quaker her name is 680 00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:23,960 Speaker 1: so Journal, and the Quakers is will do you have 681 00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:29,319 Speaker 1: another name? And she says, well, uh, no, I don't see. 682 00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:34,440 Speaker 1: Well everybody has two names. Um. And after a lot 683 00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:39,240 Speaker 1: of consideration, she settles on the name of Truth, because 684 00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:46,279 Speaker 1: that is truth is another name for God. Mhm mhm, Um, 685 00:49:46,719 --> 00:49:51,880 Speaker 1: you mentioned the power of that. Uh, that's sermon. What 686 00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:54,440 Speaker 1: do we know about so Journal is preaching? I mean 687 00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:59,560 Speaker 1: she starts really traveling when she takes the name Sojourner, 688 00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:03,920 Speaker 1: and she's an itinerary preacher through the forties and fifties 689 00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:06,600 Speaker 1: and and really for the rest of her life. Even 690 00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:09,120 Speaker 1: when she has kind of a home base, she's she's 691 00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:12,800 Speaker 1: traveling to to preach and teach. Can you describe what 692 00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:16,920 Speaker 1: it would have been like to hear Sojourner preach in 693 00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:27,359 Speaker 1: eighteen fifties, Well, um, I guess. Let me think about 694 00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:33,360 Speaker 1: some of her speeches. Um. We have some because people 695 00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:38,320 Speaker 1: would write them down on the newspapers. She was a 696 00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:42,520 Speaker 1: powerful woman in the sense that she used. First of all, 697 00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:47,040 Speaker 1: she used examples from her background, keeping in mind that 698 00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:51,279 Speaker 1: she couldn't read and write, UM. And so to be 699 00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:53,960 Speaker 1: a powerful speaker, first of all, you had to you 700 00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:59,680 Speaker 1: had to have pathos, you had to have humor, You 701 00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:03,760 Speaker 1: had to sing, and she had a beautiful singing voice. 702 00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:09,440 Speaker 1: And she would often begin with a song and UM, 703 00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:12,320 Speaker 1: and then she would be then she'd have a prayer, 704 00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:18,600 Speaker 1: and then she would speak. And her speaking was instructive. 705 00:51:18,719 --> 00:51:24,920 Speaker 1: She would always talk about her life as a slave, um, 706 00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:31,279 Speaker 1: and her experience. I mean her her pat speech had 707 00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:34,319 Speaker 1: to do with how she got her freedom and how 708 00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:38,040 Speaker 1: she got her son back. Um. But then as she 709 00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:41,719 Speaker 1: became more and more experience. One thing we don't have 710 00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:44,680 Speaker 1: any record of her ever having talked about was Matthias. 711 00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:49,040 Speaker 1: But as she got more and more experience, then her 712 00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:53,160 Speaker 1: speeches would often when she got into the meat of it, 713 00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:58,919 Speaker 1: UH would reflect things she had heard other people say 714 00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:04,560 Speaker 1: that she would pull apart um. And one of the 715 00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:09,920 Speaker 1: some wonderful examples she also because she knew so much scripture. 716 00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:11,760 Speaker 1: I mean, for a woman who couldn't read and write, 717 00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:17,880 Speaker 1: she could quote scripture. Um. And there's a wonderful story. Um. 718 00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:24,240 Speaker 1: She's in the area of western Massachusetts is an antislavery meeting. 719 00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:28,080 Speaker 1: She's living in Northampton at that time. And the person 720 00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:32,520 Speaker 1: who's in charge of the meeting is Lydia Mariah Child UM. 721 00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:37,040 Speaker 1: And and Sojourner is in the audience. Now she's not 722 00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:42,040 Speaker 1: hasn't spoken, but she's she's there in the audience and Um. 723 00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:46,120 Speaker 1: One of the speakers is a man named an abolitions 724 00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:49,920 Speaker 1: named Stephen Foster, and he speaks UM. And then one 725 00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:53,360 Speaker 1: of the men in the audience is a minister, and 726 00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:58,200 Speaker 1: he stands up and UH, and he be rates the 727 00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:02,799 Speaker 1: abolitionists and and says that you know, I haven't heard 728 00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:06,759 Speaker 1: anything moving here at all. And everyone told me that 729 00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:10,560 Speaker 1: I should come and hear the abolitionists speak because I 730 00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:14,400 Speaker 1: will be very, very moved. And I haven't heard anything moving. 731 00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:18,879 Speaker 1: All I have heard is a bunch of words from 732 00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:24,680 Speaker 1: women and jackasses. And of course the crowd is shocked. 733 00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:27,719 Speaker 1: And then so Journer stands up and this is this 734 00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:29,759 Speaker 1: is one of her This is not a speech for 735 00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:32,839 Speaker 1: this is this is an example of her amazing uh 736 00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:39,680 Speaker 1: biblical knowledge and and her capacity to just change the tone. 737 00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:44,320 Speaker 1: So she stands up and and and walks to the 738 00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:47,200 Speaker 1: front and she says, Mrs Chairman, I'd like to have 739 00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:52,480 Speaker 1: a word. And um, and she says, this man is 740 00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:57,000 Speaker 1: very angry, and uh, I know the story. I've heard 741 00:53:57,080 --> 00:54:00,400 Speaker 1: the story. He's an intelligent man. He can read the Bible. 742 00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:05,279 Speaker 1: I've heard the story of another minister who got very 743 00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:10,439 Speaker 1: angry at an ass who could talk. And and then 744 00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:14,920 Speaker 1: she told the story out of I think it's the 745 00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:21,040 Speaker 1: Book of Numbers between Baalim, who's uh a mohab priest 746 00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:28,000 Speaker 1: who is uh supposed to go someplace, and God doesn't 747 00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:30,719 Speaker 1: want him to go, so he puts the angel Gabriel 748 00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:36,080 Speaker 1: in the road, and Bilim keeps whipping his h jackass 749 00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:40,080 Speaker 1: to go on the road, and the jackass can see 750 00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:45,400 Speaker 1: the angel, but Bialem can't, and he keeps whipping the 751 00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:51,799 Speaker 1: jackass whipping him, and the jackass won't go And finally, Um, 752 00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:57,239 Speaker 1: the angel is revealed to Baalim And so, what's so, 753 00:54:57,400 --> 00:55:00,560 Speaker 1: journal Truth says as she tells the story, she says, 754 00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:03,640 Speaker 1: I knew another man who got mighty mad at an 755 00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:06,799 Speaker 1: ask and talk who could talk? Uh? And I would, 756 00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:08,719 Speaker 1: And she tells the story, and she says, so, I 757 00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:12,600 Speaker 1: just want to remind the man and the audience that 758 00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:18,279 Speaker 1: it was the ass and not the minister who saw 759 00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:25,160 Speaker 1: the angel. And the crowd just went wild. So this 760 00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:30,280 Speaker 1: is an example of one of her ways of getting 761 00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:33,920 Speaker 1: the attention of the crowd. And and the other thing 762 00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:37,840 Speaker 1: is that's interesting to me. I've i've when she spoke 763 00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:43,080 Speaker 1: to African Americans, UM, as she did in the eighteen fifties, 764 00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:46,879 Speaker 1: for example, in New York City. By eighteen fifty she's 765 00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:50,960 Speaker 1: well known and people who sort of took exception to 766 00:55:51,120 --> 00:55:54,120 Speaker 1: her in the eighteen thirties in New York City are 767 00:55:54,239 --> 00:55:57,799 Speaker 1: now going to hear her. And so she speaks one 768 00:55:57,880 --> 00:56:01,080 Speaker 1: talk that she gives an abbess any in Baptist Church, 769 00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:07,120 Speaker 1: which is recorded in UM the New York Tribune. She 770 00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:12,600 Speaker 1: it's it's a long speech and uh, and she begins 771 00:56:12,920 --> 00:56:16,080 Speaker 1: in the usual way with the prayer and singing and 772 00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:20,840 Speaker 1: so on, and then she is very personal and talks 773 00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:25,480 Speaker 1: about what it's like to speak to her own people. 774 00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:32,800 Speaker 1: And she reminds them that when she lived there, nobody 775 00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:36,200 Speaker 1: black people paid any attention to her. That most of 776 00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:40,200 Speaker 1: her work that she did as a reformer as Isabella 777 00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:46,040 Speaker 1: was in the five points among sex workers and drunks 778 00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:50,560 Speaker 1: and people like that. UM. And but that's what she did. 779 00:56:50,680 --> 00:56:53,600 Speaker 1: And she says, you know, I'm um, and she talks 780 00:56:53,600 --> 00:56:59,400 Speaker 1: about her background from rural Dutch background UH, and that 781 00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:03,279 Speaker 1: she was not accepted UM. So she basically sort of 782 00:57:03,719 --> 00:57:09,040 Speaker 1: critiques them for kind of their elitism UM. And then 783 00:57:09,960 --> 00:57:14,040 Speaker 1: she gets on the black ministers and she because at 784 00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:18,400 Speaker 1: this point in the eighteen fifties, the Methodist Church has 785 00:57:19,080 --> 00:57:25,040 Speaker 1: denied the pulpit to black women UM and has denied 786 00:57:26,040 --> 00:57:30,000 Speaker 1: UH ordination to anybody who cannot read and write, and 787 00:57:30,120 --> 00:57:33,120 Speaker 1: so UM people like her. There are a few black 788 00:57:33,160 --> 00:57:37,640 Speaker 1: women preachers who UM can't preach in a building. They 789 00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:40,080 Speaker 1: preach out in the open air. That's why they do it. 790 00:57:40,200 --> 00:57:44,600 Speaker 1: So she criticizes them at these black managers with their 791 00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:50,640 Speaker 1: UM Greek crammed heads, UM will not allow the word 792 00:57:50,680 --> 00:57:54,960 Speaker 1: of God to be uh spoken by somebody like me. 793 00:57:55,160 --> 00:57:59,040 Speaker 1: So she criticizes them um in that speech. And then 794 00:57:59,120 --> 00:58:03,920 Speaker 1: she also talks them about the city um and how 795 00:58:04,080 --> 00:58:07,200 Speaker 1: important it is not to bow to the filth of 796 00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:12,240 Speaker 1: the city. Um. And and then and and this is 797 00:58:12,320 --> 00:58:15,520 Speaker 1: really the I think it's really the punchline. She talks 798 00:58:15,560 --> 00:58:20,240 Speaker 1: to them about activism and how important it is and 799 00:58:20,440 --> 00:58:23,080 Speaker 1: and you get the sense from what she's saying that 800 00:58:24,040 --> 00:58:27,120 Speaker 1: even though there's a huge abolitionist movement going on in 801 00:58:27,160 --> 00:58:31,720 Speaker 1: the eighteen fifties, um, and the lots of black abolitionist 802 00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:35,600 Speaker 1: speakers and so on in cities, people are not on 803 00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:38,600 Speaker 1: on a daily daily basis, are not as active as 804 00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:41,360 Speaker 1: as they could be or should be. And so she 805 00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:45,520 Speaker 1: critiques them on that too. UM. And and that's important 806 00:58:45,640 --> 00:58:49,480 Speaker 1: because there's an underground railroad after eighteen fifty when the 807 00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:55,600 Speaker 1: fugitive flat laws passed, Uh, the underground railroad is very vibrant. Uh. 808 00:58:55,920 --> 00:58:59,600 Speaker 1: And so she and speaking to her own people, is 809 00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:04,080 Speaker 1: honest in them for not taking a more activist role 810 00:59:04,840 --> 00:59:11,040 Speaker 1: um and Um. It's a long speech, so that's her 811 00:59:11,240 --> 00:59:15,800 Speaker 1: with her own people. UM. But yeah, there were these 812 00:59:15,880 --> 00:59:22,440 Speaker 1: elements in an anti slavery, speech, humor, pathos, experience um 813 00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:26,000 Speaker 1: and uh and you had to tell a story. So 814 00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:30,480 Speaker 1: um she was she was really, she was a master 815 00:59:31,080 --> 00:59:35,520 Speaker 1: at this. Let's talk about one of those places where 816 00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:41,000 Speaker 1: she did feel at home, uh in the Northampton Association UM, 817 00:59:41,280 --> 00:59:44,720 Speaker 1: which is such an interesting episode of her life, in 818 00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:47,760 Speaker 1: part because of all the people she meets there. And 819 00:59:48,240 --> 00:59:50,720 Speaker 1: you write about the isms that were in the air 820 00:59:51,520 --> 00:59:54,280 Speaker 1: at Northampton in the eighteen forties. What was that community 821 00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:57,240 Speaker 1: like and what were some of those is ms, the ideas, 822 00:59:57,400 --> 01:00:00,680 Speaker 1: the what was it like to be in Northampton in 823 01:00:00,760 --> 01:00:04,960 Speaker 1: that period? Northampton was a very special place. I mean, 824 01:00:05,240 --> 01:00:09,560 Speaker 1: all of the utopian communities. We don't know much about Harmonia, 825 01:00:09,680 --> 01:00:14,040 Speaker 1: the one that she was involved in in Michigan, but 826 01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:17,200 Speaker 1: we do have a lot of information on Northampton, and 827 01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:22,000 Speaker 1: of course that's where she wrote her narrative. But Northampton had, 828 01:00:23,400 --> 01:00:28,240 Speaker 1: first of all, it was founded by William Lord Garrison, 829 01:00:28,320 --> 01:00:31,080 Speaker 1: the head of the American Anti Slavery Society, founded by 830 01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:36,360 Speaker 1: his brother in law. UM. And and that made it 831 01:00:37,200 --> 01:00:43,520 Speaker 1: sort of an entrepole for anti slavery. UM. It was 832 01:00:43,640 --> 01:00:52,040 Speaker 1: a Northampton, Massachusetts was a place that slaveholders like to 833 01:00:52,120 --> 01:00:56,160 Speaker 1: go for a vacation. UM. And so the commune was 834 01:00:56,200 --> 01:00:59,200 Speaker 1: sort of on the outside, I guess you'd say it 835 01:00:59,200 --> 01:01:04,920 Speaker 1: would be uh, north of the city of Northampton. UM. 836 01:01:06,240 --> 01:01:12,440 Speaker 1: And the people who founded it were from southeastern Connecticut. 837 01:01:12,960 --> 01:01:15,720 Speaker 1: That's where Garrison's brother in law was from, and then 838 01:01:16,160 --> 01:01:21,640 Speaker 1: a number of his in laws UH went to Northampton 839 01:01:21,840 --> 01:01:26,840 Speaker 1: as well. And UM it was founded by abolitionists. They 840 01:01:26,960 --> 01:01:32,760 Speaker 1: wanted a commune where they could have open discussions, and 841 01:01:32,800 --> 01:01:36,200 Speaker 1: they also wanted a sort of a region that would 842 01:01:36,240 --> 01:01:40,520 Speaker 1: be in between the East and the West, with the 843 01:01:40,640 --> 01:01:45,200 Speaker 1: west being not I mean not not even the Midwest 844 01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:47,520 Speaker 1: that this that is to say, not Ohio and Michigan, 845 01:01:48,040 --> 01:01:53,480 Speaker 1: but west meaning western New York. UM. That's sort of 846 01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:57,440 Speaker 1: the way they saw the anti slavery dichotomy. So you 847 01:01:57,520 --> 01:02:00,600 Speaker 1: had Boston and then you had New York. But New 848 01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:04,040 Speaker 1: York was in the hands of a more conservative anti 849 01:02:04,160 --> 01:02:09,920 Speaker 1: slavery group who did not allow women to speak. So 850 01:02:10,320 --> 01:02:17,240 Speaker 1: the next headquarters after Boston was really Rochester. So Northampton 851 01:02:17,440 --> 01:02:25,720 Speaker 1: was in between. UM. And for individuals leaving Boston in 852 01:02:25,840 --> 01:02:31,160 Speaker 1: that area to go into the Midwest to speak, then 853 01:02:31,720 --> 01:02:36,400 Speaker 1: Northampton was a stopping place UH for them going that way. 854 01:02:36,480 --> 01:02:39,360 Speaker 1: It was also a stopping place if they were going 855 01:02:39,520 --> 01:02:44,080 Speaker 1: to go north. Um. It was also an important underground 856 01:02:44,160 --> 01:02:50,800 Speaker 1: railroad entrepos So all of the reasons that someone would 857 01:02:50,840 --> 01:02:53,680 Speaker 1: want to be in Northampton as a sort of the 858 01:02:54,160 --> 01:02:58,560 Speaker 1: the core of anti slavery in the east. Uh, we're 859 01:02:58,640 --> 01:03:03,439 Speaker 1: there for for Soldier Earner. So um, everybody stopped there. 860 01:03:04,600 --> 01:03:10,400 Speaker 1: M Frederick Douglas, Charles Lennox, Rieman, Abby Kelly. Uh. It 861 01:03:10,640 --> 01:03:15,560 Speaker 1: was the place where you went for all kinds of 862 01:03:16,000 --> 01:03:23,120 Speaker 1: of activities. It was also a place that had I 863 01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:27,120 Speaker 1: guess you'd say the core of reformism there more than 864 01:03:27,200 --> 01:03:31,600 Speaker 1: any other of the utopian communities, because even though it 865 01:03:31,720 --> 01:03:36,840 Speaker 1: was founded by abolitionists, they welcome other reforms as well, 866 01:03:37,520 --> 01:03:42,480 Speaker 1: so that it wasn't specifically a spiritualist commune, it wasn't 867 01:03:42,520 --> 01:03:47,080 Speaker 1: specifically a transcendentalist commune. Um, it was sort of a 868 01:03:47,280 --> 01:03:53,200 Speaker 1: commune's commune. So everybody was there. The Graham Bread people 869 01:03:53,280 --> 01:03:57,240 Speaker 1: were there, you know, the food reformers, the health the 870 01:03:57,640 --> 01:04:01,800 Speaker 1: water Cure was there. David Ruggles had his water cure 871 01:04:03,920 --> 01:04:09,520 Speaker 1: a concern there. John Brown's wife was at the water 872 01:04:09,640 --> 01:04:15,600 Speaker 1: Cure with so Journer truth Um. So north Hampton was 873 01:04:15,720 --> 01:04:22,840 Speaker 1: the entrepo of communalism. Everybody stopped there. Um So that's 874 01:04:23,080 --> 01:04:24,840 Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's the way I would explain it. 875 01:04:24,920 --> 01:04:28,480 Speaker 1: And it was if you look at the Northampton records, 876 01:04:29,280 --> 01:04:32,080 Speaker 1: uh and and the kind of people who came was 877 01:04:32,160 --> 01:04:37,000 Speaker 1: also integrated. That's another important part of Northampton. Most of 878 01:04:37,080 --> 01:04:40,800 Speaker 1: these communes were not integrated. And that wasn't because they 879 01:04:41,440 --> 01:04:44,800 Speaker 1: uh did not allow African Americans. It's just because African 880 01:04:44,800 --> 01:04:48,480 Speaker 1: Americans didn't go there. Um So journal when she left 881 01:04:48,640 --> 01:04:53,400 Speaker 1: New York, she was headed for fruit Lands, and the 882 01:04:53,560 --> 01:04:57,920 Speaker 1: people in um one of the Quaker places where she 883 01:04:58,000 --> 01:05:01,480 Speaker 1: stopped in Long Island, told that she didn't want Fruitlands 884 01:05:01,600 --> 01:05:04,680 Speaker 1: was not the place for her. And then she said, okay, 885 01:05:04,680 --> 01:05:07,840 Speaker 1: well then I'll go to the Shakers and they said, no, 886 01:05:08,000 --> 01:05:13,200 Speaker 1: that's not the place either. Um. The Shakers is thoroughly 887 01:05:13,280 --> 01:05:17,960 Speaker 1: religious and it has a religious, a very doctrinaire religious impulse. 888 01:05:18,760 --> 01:05:25,280 Speaker 1: Um Brook Farm was intellectual. The Oneida community was in 889 01:05:25,360 --> 01:05:31,280 Speaker 1: a multiple marriage for men. So they all had their causes. 890 01:05:32,040 --> 01:05:36,160 Speaker 1: North Hampton you didn't have to have a specific cause, 891 01:05:37,120 --> 01:05:41,000 Speaker 1: but you had to be an abolitionist. Um So it 892 01:05:41,200 --> 01:05:45,960 Speaker 1: was really the center of the communes. And and everybody 893 01:05:46,040 --> 01:05:50,000 Speaker 1: went there, even people from UM Europe. The first thing 894 01:05:50,080 --> 01:05:53,520 Speaker 1: they wanted to do when they were studying utopian ism 895 01:05:53,560 --> 01:05:59,480 Speaker 1: must go to Northampton. So it's in Northampton where she 896 01:05:59,600 --> 01:06:03,000 Speaker 1: meets people like Amy Post from Rochester. It's in this 897 01:06:03,240 --> 01:06:06,960 Speaker 1: this web of relationships from Northampton where she meets Amy Post, 898 01:06:07,080 --> 01:06:10,800 Speaker 1: who's at the beginning with the Fox Sisters and what's 899 01:06:10,840 --> 01:06:14,880 Speaker 1: often pointed to as the beginning of modern spiritualism. There. 900 01:06:15,080 --> 01:06:18,520 Speaker 1: But she also meets Andrew Jackson Davis. Right, that's right. 901 01:06:19,800 --> 01:06:23,600 Speaker 1: Can you remember what their conversations were like, UM, I 902 01:06:23,680 --> 01:06:27,760 Speaker 1: don't know. I know she was very close to his wife. Um, 903 01:06:30,160 --> 01:06:35,440 Speaker 1: she and he wasn't there that long. Actually she met 904 01:06:35,520 --> 01:06:39,160 Speaker 1: Amy Post. She didn't meet Amy Post in Northampton. She 905 01:06:39,240 --> 01:06:45,120 Speaker 1: met Amy Post in Rochester. In UM, there was some 906 01:06:45,480 --> 01:06:54,080 Speaker 1: friction between Andrew Jackson Davis and UM. People who sort 907 01:06:54,080 --> 01:06:58,200 Speaker 1: of got into spiritualism through the Fox Sisters. They thought 908 01:06:58,280 --> 01:07:03,120 Speaker 1: that Davis is UH spiritualism was more self serving, is 909 01:07:03,200 --> 01:07:10,600 Speaker 1: not as authentic. UM. But that was just just differences. UM. 910 01:07:11,480 --> 01:07:16,080 Speaker 1: The Fox Sisters were from western New York, and so 911 01:07:16,320 --> 01:07:21,560 Speaker 1: people who UH came to spiritualism as a practice as 912 01:07:21,640 --> 01:07:26,560 Speaker 1: a reform through that venue just sort of gravitated towards 913 01:07:27,040 --> 01:07:29,959 Speaker 1: her her well, there were two of them, the Fox 914 01:07:30,040 --> 01:07:33,960 Speaker 1: Sisters UM and then Andrew Jackson Davis. That was a 915 01:07:34,000 --> 01:07:38,800 Speaker 1: different venue. So it really depended on who you got 916 01:07:38,920 --> 01:07:44,440 Speaker 1: your your spiritualism through. And the Fox Sisters were right 917 01:07:44,480 --> 01:07:46,960 Speaker 1: outside of Rochester, so that was sort of the beginning. 918 01:07:47,080 --> 01:07:50,480 Speaker 1: But even before that, I mean even even before she 919 01:07:50,680 --> 01:07:53,360 Speaker 1: met so Journer met the Fox Sisters, she had met 920 01:07:53,640 --> 01:07:58,840 Speaker 1: Andrew Jackson Davis because he would come to UH to Northampton, 921 01:07:59,240 --> 01:08:04,760 Speaker 1: so she was already into the spiritualist network. UM and 922 01:08:05,280 --> 01:08:08,040 Speaker 1: UM they said her you know, so journal was the 923 01:08:10,200 --> 01:08:12,520 Speaker 1: what was her role? She was the head of the 924 01:08:12,720 --> 01:08:19,639 Speaker 1: laundry at Northampton, even though as as one UM person 925 01:08:19,680 --> 01:08:21,840 Speaker 1: who was taking her place, she was hardly ever there. 926 01:08:22,680 --> 01:08:24,320 Speaker 1: One of the things about her being ahead of the 927 01:08:24,400 --> 01:08:28,160 Speaker 1: laundry was that when she wasn't there, a lot of 928 01:08:28,960 --> 01:08:32,080 Speaker 1: the men would do the laundry for her because she 929 01:08:32,240 --> 01:08:35,519 Speaker 1: was often gone giving speeches. But one of the things 930 01:08:35,560 --> 01:08:41,479 Speaker 1: that UH she did was in the community hall, which 931 01:08:41,520 --> 01:08:44,200 Speaker 1: is where they all met, is that she had, as 932 01:08:44,240 --> 01:08:49,120 Speaker 1: far as I can remember, two conversations on spiritualism with Davis. 933 01:08:49,840 --> 01:08:54,080 Speaker 1: UM that and this comes from a group of letters 934 01:08:54,240 --> 01:08:57,439 Speaker 1: from the steps and family, who are one of the 935 01:08:57,520 --> 01:09:02,360 Speaker 1: founding families of Northampton. Uh that, and she says something 936 01:09:02,400 --> 01:09:04,920 Speaker 1: to the effect of Andrew Jackson Davis and the soldiurn 937 01:09:04,960 --> 01:09:09,200 Speaker 1: and really went at it um tonight. And she doesn't 938 01:09:09,240 --> 01:09:14,920 Speaker 1: say what they went at it on um, but who knows? 939 01:09:16,600 --> 01:09:20,080 Speaker 1: Mm hmm. And I know there are records of Andrew 940 01:09:20,160 --> 01:09:23,640 Speaker 1: Jackson Davis later being disdainful of what he calls, you know, 941 01:09:23,760 --> 01:09:26,519 Speaker 1: the spirit rapping and it's not the embrace of his 942 01:09:26,600 --> 01:09:31,400 Speaker 1: harmonial philosophy, and it's not you know, the embracing translectors, 943 01:09:31,479 --> 01:09:34,879 Speaker 1: but people looking for the wrappings and the table turnings 944 01:09:34,920 --> 01:09:38,920 Speaker 1: and the kind of physical manifestations. And he in some 945 01:09:39,120 --> 01:09:42,880 Speaker 1: cases pushes back against that as being a kind of 946 01:09:42,920 --> 01:09:45,120 Speaker 1: a true spiritualism. So that's an interesting point you make 947 01:09:45,200 --> 01:09:49,080 Speaker 1: about um people on that side, Amy Post, who is 948 01:09:49,160 --> 01:09:52,680 Speaker 1: good friends with the Foxes and and so journal and 949 01:09:52,720 --> 01:09:57,080 Speaker 1: their network of spiritualist believers, that they would find Davis 950 01:09:57,240 --> 01:10:00,240 Speaker 1: to be I'm trying to remember the word you used. 951 01:10:00,320 --> 01:10:06,080 Speaker 1: Was it disdainful or something? That's interesting? Well, they were 952 01:10:06,200 --> 01:10:09,840 Speaker 1: more there. Their spiritualism, as far as every concerned, was 953 01:10:09,960 --> 01:10:18,880 Speaker 1: more authentic. Um, he was not so much into mediums UM. 954 01:10:19,160 --> 01:10:22,800 Speaker 1: And so Journal was a medium. UM. I mean she 955 01:10:23,160 --> 01:10:29,400 Speaker 1: she was adamant about that, and UM so was Isaac Post. 956 01:10:30,360 --> 01:10:34,320 Speaker 1: So they believed very strongly in in that that the 957 01:10:34,479 --> 01:10:37,240 Speaker 1: medium part that the rapping. And they also believed in 958 01:10:37,320 --> 01:10:44,040 Speaker 1: that that their seances included rappings. UM. And you know, 959 01:10:44,439 --> 01:10:49,080 Speaker 1: I think also some of it was their political orientations 960 01:10:50,439 --> 01:10:54,080 Speaker 1: between Davis and and UH. And Davis was certainly a 961 01:10:54,200 --> 01:10:59,879 Speaker 1: reformer UM. But and aside from political and by political 962 01:11:00,080 --> 01:11:06,120 Speaker 1: mean that they were basically in competition UH, spiritualism. For 963 01:11:06,439 --> 01:11:13,080 Speaker 1: the practicing abolitionists, the activist abolitionism was not something that 964 01:11:15,760 --> 01:11:20,920 Speaker 1: consumed them. It had its place, but it was not 965 01:11:21,520 --> 01:11:25,080 Speaker 1: um the end all the way it was for Andrew 966 01:11:25,160 --> 01:11:29,760 Speaker 1: Jackson Davis. UM. They certainly took it seriously. They had 967 01:11:29,840 --> 01:11:34,280 Speaker 1: their seances. UM. It was actually I think it was 968 01:11:34,400 --> 01:11:38,519 Speaker 1: Isaac Post who channeled John Quincy Adams UM. And so 969 01:11:38,960 --> 01:11:42,880 Speaker 1: they did strongly believe in it. But but they had 970 01:11:43,000 --> 01:11:45,640 Speaker 1: other causes as well. One of the most important ones was, 971 01:11:45,960 --> 01:11:49,680 Speaker 1: of course the breaks within the Quaker Church that they 972 01:11:49,720 --> 01:11:54,200 Speaker 1: were dealing with. So UM, their causes were much more 973 01:11:54,280 --> 01:11:59,519 Speaker 1: diverse than Andrew Jackson Davis. You mentioned that Sojourner's vision 974 01:11:59,720 --> 01:12:03,559 Speaker 1: was an as narrowly confined as Andrew Jackson Davis's. Um, 975 01:12:04,120 --> 01:12:08,360 Speaker 1: how important were women's conventions and anti slavery conventions for 976 01:12:08,600 --> 01:12:11,720 Speaker 1: sojourn Or during the eighteen fifties, because Yeah, she's not 977 01:12:12,000 --> 01:12:17,840 Speaker 1: just following these the spiritualist circles. She's preaching abolition. She's preaching, Um, 978 01:12:18,640 --> 01:12:21,679 Speaker 1: she's part of the women's movement, and and and she's 979 01:12:21,920 --> 01:12:24,240 Speaker 1: doing religious teaching at the same time as these other things. 980 01:12:24,680 --> 01:12:27,600 Speaker 1: How important were these conventions for the life of the 981 01:12:27,640 --> 01:12:32,280 Speaker 1: movements she was involved in. Well, the conventions were her network. 982 01:12:33,160 --> 01:12:37,160 Speaker 1: They were very important. Um, I mean that was her life. 983 01:12:37,400 --> 01:12:42,360 Speaker 1: Spiritualism was part of her very being. It later, you know, 984 01:12:42,560 --> 01:12:48,120 Speaker 1: like when this she starts regularly attending spiritualist conventions after 985 01:12:48,200 --> 01:12:53,760 Speaker 1: the Civil War, m Um, before that, she's I mean, 986 01:12:53,840 --> 01:12:56,200 Speaker 1: she's she's at all of the women's rise conventions when 987 01:12:56,280 --> 01:12:59,400 Speaker 1: she's in town, when she's in the area. Uh and 988 01:12:59,520 --> 01:13:03,080 Speaker 1: of course at every anti slavery convention until she moves 989 01:13:03,160 --> 01:13:06,920 Speaker 1: to the east to the west. Sorry, and then Uh, 990 01:13:07,040 --> 01:13:11,040 Speaker 1: so she is deeply involved. And and I think it's 991 01:13:11,080 --> 01:13:16,840 Speaker 1: important to understand that spiritualism was so germane to her. 992 01:13:18,080 --> 01:13:23,120 Speaker 1: That um as as one um UM newspaper asked her 993 01:13:24,360 --> 01:13:27,720 Speaker 1: when did she join the spiritualists, and she said, but 994 01:13:27,760 --> 01:13:35,120 Speaker 1: there's nothing to join, you know, it's it's just me um. So. 995 01:13:35,320 --> 01:13:38,639 Speaker 1: But then they started having spiritualist conventions and she would 996 01:13:38,640 --> 01:13:44,560 Speaker 1: go to those. M Hum, there's a section and and 997 01:13:44,760 --> 01:13:49,080 Speaker 1: my book where they are. Uh. There's an anti slavery 998 01:13:49,200 --> 01:13:54,960 Speaker 1: convention in Michigan. It's in the eighteen fifty seven and UM. 999 01:13:56,880 --> 01:13:59,560 Speaker 1: It gives you a sense of how important spiritualism was. 1000 01:13:59,640 --> 01:14:03,679 Speaker 1: This is an anti slavery convention. Uh. It's being run 1001 01:14:03,840 --> 01:14:09,320 Speaker 1: by Sojourner and her friend from Ohio, Josephine Griffin, and 1002 01:14:09,880 --> 01:14:13,960 Speaker 1: her friend from Rochester, Lucy Coleman. So they're running this 1003 01:14:14,200 --> 01:14:19,479 Speaker 1: and then the progressive friends in Michigan are also involved, UM. 1004 01:14:20,439 --> 01:14:23,080 Speaker 1: And they're making speeches and they're singing and so on. 1005 01:14:23,320 --> 01:14:29,559 Speaker 1: And then an anti slavery UM activists. A woman gets 1006 01:14:29,760 --> 01:14:40,439 Speaker 1: up and she gives a spiritualist speech. UM. And the 1007 01:14:41,720 --> 01:14:46,519 Speaker 1: newspaper editor, whose name is Marius Robinson, really tries to 1008 01:14:46,600 --> 01:14:49,599 Speaker 1: write it down in the anti slavery bugle. I can't 1009 01:14:49,640 --> 01:14:53,960 Speaker 1: understand a word of it, but there it is in print. 1010 01:14:55,200 --> 01:14:59,800 Speaker 1: UM and UM and she's channeling all of these p 1011 01:15:00,040 --> 01:15:04,360 Speaker 1: well right in the middle of this anti slavery convention. Uh. 1012 01:15:04,479 --> 01:15:06,840 Speaker 1: And then you know, she sits down and and then 1013 01:15:06,880 --> 01:15:09,760 Speaker 1: so Jenna Truth gets up and speaks, and um, she 1014 01:15:09,920 --> 01:15:15,679 Speaker 1: does not mention the woman's spiritualist speech. She talks about 1015 01:15:15,720 --> 01:15:20,280 Speaker 1: anti slavery and her her own children and um. But 1016 01:15:20,400 --> 01:15:24,439 Speaker 1: then the next speaker, and I think it's uh right, 1017 01:15:24,880 --> 01:15:28,599 Speaker 1: I can't remember his first name, Henry C. Wright. Uh. 1018 01:15:28,880 --> 01:15:32,560 Speaker 1: He goes back to the whole spiritualist outpouring that this 1019 01:15:32,680 --> 01:15:36,519 Speaker 1: woman had um. And so it's it's really it's kind 1020 01:15:36,560 --> 01:15:40,840 Speaker 1: of like embedded in there. Even though I don't know 1021 01:15:40,920 --> 01:15:43,880 Speaker 1: when they had the first Spiritualist convention. Um, I'll have 1022 01:15:44,040 --> 01:15:47,400 Speaker 1: to look and look at because this this new book 1023 01:15:47,439 --> 01:15:51,360 Speaker 1: that I'm working on, Spiritualism is is very much a 1024 01:15:51,479 --> 01:15:53,599 Speaker 1: part of it. I'm spending a lot of time looking 1025 01:15:53,640 --> 01:15:59,160 Speaker 1: at Cora Hatch. Yeah. I mean, she's she's she's amazing. 1026 01:16:00,240 --> 01:16:03,240 Speaker 1: But but it was, you know, it was just something 1027 01:16:03,320 --> 01:16:08,080 Speaker 1: that they all accepted. I mean, everybody except Frederick Douglas. Um, 1028 01:16:08,439 --> 01:16:11,120 Speaker 1: they couldn't. He couldn't. He would go to that. He 1029 01:16:11,160 --> 01:16:13,600 Speaker 1: started going to the conventions after the Civil War. But 1030 01:16:14,600 --> 01:16:18,719 Speaker 1: I read a few letters that you wrote to Amy Post. 1031 01:16:19,760 --> 01:16:22,840 Speaker 1: It's just like in the late eighteen forties, and he's 1032 01:16:22,920 --> 01:16:26,439 Speaker 1: you know, saying, I just I just can't, I can't 1033 01:16:26,960 --> 01:16:31,080 Speaker 1: get into it. M hm Um. But he's one of 1034 01:16:31,160 --> 01:16:36,599 Speaker 1: the few. I mean, the other blackmail abolitionists are many 1035 01:16:36,640 --> 01:16:40,240 Speaker 1: of whom are ministers, are are very devoted to it. 1036 01:16:42,120 --> 01:16:48,000 Speaker 1: You mentioned Josephine Griffin. Um after well after so journal 1037 01:16:48,040 --> 01:16:51,280 Speaker 1: cells or Northampton property in eight seven and moved out 1038 01:16:51,320 --> 01:16:57,280 Speaker 1: to Battle Creek, the Harmonia community there. Um. She again 1039 01:16:57,400 --> 01:16:59,680 Speaker 1: is still traveling. It's not like she she listened, but 1040 01:16:59,760 --> 01:17:02,680 Speaker 1: she Yeah, she has an illness during the Civil War 1041 01:17:02,800 --> 01:17:07,679 Speaker 1: years right, Um, but then she comes back and many 1042 01:17:07,800 --> 01:17:11,880 Speaker 1: years after the war she's very involved with Josephine Griffin 1043 01:17:12,080 --> 01:17:16,160 Speaker 1: in the Freedmen's Village and the National Freedman's Relief Association. 1044 01:17:16,760 --> 01:17:19,320 Speaker 1: Can you talk about the work that she was doing there. 1045 01:17:21,040 --> 01:17:26,120 Speaker 1: She was a counselor for the freed people. Um. And 1046 01:17:26,760 --> 01:17:32,000 Speaker 1: she was both in Washington when Josephine Griffin was the 1047 01:17:32,280 --> 01:17:40,200 Speaker 1: assistant director of the Bureau for Washington and and and 1048 01:17:40,320 --> 01:17:44,559 Speaker 1: they had that house on Capitol Avenue or Capitol Hill. 1049 01:17:44,800 --> 01:17:49,360 Speaker 1: They and just um so Journer worked there as a 1050 01:17:49,520 --> 01:17:53,160 Speaker 1: counselor for the freed freed women and then before that, 1051 01:17:53,400 --> 01:17:55,519 Speaker 1: so that was like that was that was after the 1052 01:17:55,600 --> 01:17:59,360 Speaker 1: death of Lincoln. Before that is when she meets Lincoln. 1053 01:18:00,120 --> 01:18:03,000 Speaker 1: That's when she's at Freedman's Village and she's she's doing 1054 01:18:04,040 --> 01:18:09,360 Speaker 1: She's very important there because these are all women and 1055 01:18:09,520 --> 01:18:15,240 Speaker 1: men and children who were slaves. And um, they needed 1056 01:18:15,840 --> 01:18:21,720 Speaker 1: uh someone who could talk uh the language that they 1057 01:18:21,760 --> 01:18:25,519 Speaker 1: could understand that as someone who had been enslaved. Uh. 1058 01:18:25,880 --> 01:18:30,920 Speaker 1: And she was a counselor at Freedman's Village for about 1059 01:18:30,960 --> 01:18:34,240 Speaker 1: a year and a half, and that was important. That 1060 01:18:34,400 --> 01:18:38,760 Speaker 1: was when the Freedman's village they built homes a little 1061 01:18:39,160 --> 01:18:43,960 Speaker 1: they weren't really homes, but they were, um, well, I 1062 01:18:44,000 --> 01:18:46,840 Speaker 1: guess they were village homes for them. Um. And and 1063 01:18:47,320 --> 01:18:51,400 Speaker 1: so jouring her truth set up a church. Um. She 1064 01:18:51,800 --> 01:18:57,920 Speaker 1: asked people, congressmen to come when they had celebrations they 1065 01:18:58,000 --> 01:19:00,519 Speaker 1: and they would they would come and and see the 1066 01:19:00,600 --> 01:19:04,240 Speaker 1: progress that the freed people were making. Um. And she 1067 01:19:04,400 --> 01:19:07,000 Speaker 1: also was because she was you know, she was she 1068 01:19:07,160 --> 01:19:09,880 Speaker 1: was an African Dutch woman. She was kind of a taskmaster. 1069 01:19:10,160 --> 01:19:16,120 Speaker 1: She was sort of no nonsense. So um, she would 1070 01:19:16,800 --> 01:19:22,800 Speaker 1: chestise the freed people UH for their behavior UM and UM. 1071 01:19:23,560 --> 01:19:26,519 Speaker 1: At some point it made her unpopular with them. But 1072 01:19:26,720 --> 01:19:30,479 Speaker 1: she was very very strict UH in terms of what 1073 01:19:31,320 --> 01:19:36,120 Speaker 1: you should and shouldn't do. And also they were very religious, 1074 01:19:36,160 --> 01:19:38,479 Speaker 1: so there was never any question about them going to church. 1075 01:19:39,560 --> 01:19:46,400 Speaker 1: But so Journer wanted UH circumspect behavior UH and UM. 1076 01:19:47,479 --> 01:19:50,840 Speaker 1: The difference between enslaved people who were born and raised 1077 01:19:50,880 --> 01:19:52,840 Speaker 1: in the North and enslaved people who were born and 1078 01:19:52,920 --> 01:19:57,160 Speaker 1: raised in the South could be considerable and um and 1079 01:19:57,360 --> 01:20:00,800 Speaker 1: and so Journer also was raised in a very sort 1080 01:20:00,840 --> 01:20:06,080 Speaker 1: of industrious type of UH, a home life where everything 1081 01:20:06,240 --> 01:20:12,280 Speaker 1: is all cleanliness and UM. She promoted that and sometimes 1082 01:20:12,320 --> 01:20:15,519 Speaker 1: they didn't like it. They thought she was too officious. UM. 1083 01:20:16,600 --> 01:20:18,280 Speaker 1: So she stayed there for a year and a half 1084 01:20:18,439 --> 01:20:22,000 Speaker 1: and then she went to help with Josephine and the 1085 01:20:22,800 --> 01:20:25,960 Speaker 1: UH in the city in Washington City, and that was 1086 01:20:26,479 --> 01:20:29,559 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's where she really thrived because 1087 01:20:29,680 --> 01:20:35,800 Speaker 1: she taught sewing and UH and other domestic arts to 1088 01:20:35,920 --> 01:20:41,040 Speaker 1: the women. And then she went to Freedman's Hospital and 1089 01:20:41,160 --> 01:20:45,400 Speaker 1: worked at Freedman's Hospital UM, which was going to become 1090 01:20:45,439 --> 01:20:48,160 Speaker 1: Howard University's medical school. She did that for a year 1091 01:20:48,160 --> 01:20:53,599 Speaker 1: and a half. At the same time, she is, along 1092 01:20:53,680 --> 01:20:58,920 Speaker 1: with Josephine, setting up this employment office. I just found 1093 01:20:59,000 --> 01:21:03,439 Speaker 1: that was that was so fascinating. Um, that their their 1094 01:21:03,520 --> 01:21:07,479 Speaker 1: commitment was such so that they were looking at every 1095 01:21:07,560 --> 01:21:14,280 Speaker 1: avenue possible, uh two place people and I mean just 1096 01:21:14,439 --> 01:21:17,639 Speaker 1: all kinds of ways. She was active in the court 1097 01:21:17,760 --> 01:21:22,639 Speaker 1: system with the the apprentice system. I I they took 1098 01:21:22,720 --> 01:21:24,680 Speaker 1: this out of the book, but the apprentice system in 1099 01:21:24,760 --> 01:21:30,439 Speaker 1: the state of Maryland, uh provided that planters could take 1100 01:21:30,560 --> 01:21:35,240 Speaker 1: people's children and uh and put them to work. And 1101 01:21:35,360 --> 01:21:38,600 Speaker 1: so she went to court to challenge that. And of 1102 01:21:38,680 --> 01:21:44,799 Speaker 1: course she challenged the street car arrangements um, because Lincoln 1103 01:21:44,880 --> 01:21:49,720 Speaker 1: had desegregated the street cars before he passed away, and um, 1104 01:21:49,960 --> 01:21:53,680 Speaker 1: the conductors were not honoring it. Um. And so she 1105 01:21:53,840 --> 01:21:57,360 Speaker 1: had a big court case with that because she gets 1106 01:21:57,400 --> 01:22:00,680 Speaker 1: thrown off right. She gets thrown off right yeah, um, 1107 01:22:01,000 --> 01:22:07,000 Speaker 1: and and has dislocates her shoulder and the Freedman Hospital 1108 01:22:07,160 --> 01:22:11,519 Speaker 1: doctors go to court with her to testify. Um. So 1109 01:22:11,920 --> 01:22:17,440 Speaker 1: she's and and then she she's once they are transporting 1110 01:22:17,520 --> 01:22:21,280 Speaker 1: people trying to get them settled elsewhere, because the city 1111 01:22:21,320 --> 01:22:25,400 Speaker 1: of Washington has forty tho African Americans in it as 1112 01:22:25,439 --> 01:22:28,120 Speaker 1: a result of the war. Um, and there are not 1113 01:22:28,320 --> 01:22:32,559 Speaker 1: enough jobs for them, there's not enough space. Um, they're 1114 01:22:32,600 --> 01:22:36,960 Speaker 1: living in alleys. Uh. You know, basically they have nothing, 1115 01:22:37,800 --> 01:22:42,639 Speaker 1: nothing over their heads. So she and Josephine are trying 1116 01:22:42,680 --> 01:22:46,599 Speaker 1: to get them out of Washington and so she takes 1117 01:22:48,200 --> 01:22:55,879 Speaker 1: um trainloads of them two Rochester and even to Michigan. 1118 01:22:57,360 --> 01:23:01,920 Speaker 1: Um when they call them so journals trains. So I 1119 01:23:01,960 --> 01:23:07,080 Speaker 1: mean she's she's really amazing during this period, after after 1120 01:23:07,240 --> 01:23:13,280 Speaker 1: having almost died being so sick during the Civil War. Yeah. Yeah, Um, 1121 01:23:13,800 --> 01:23:16,840 Speaker 1: you also found some fascinating you describe them wonderful letters 1122 01:23:17,120 --> 01:23:21,920 Speaker 1: between Cora Hatch and Amy Post when Cora comes and 1123 01:23:22,720 --> 01:23:26,120 Speaker 1: stays with or or visit Sojourner at the Freedoman's Hospital. 1124 01:23:26,360 --> 01:23:30,240 Speaker 1: Do we know much about her relationship with Cora? In 1125 01:23:30,360 --> 01:23:34,639 Speaker 1: the book, I talked about this uh abolitionist singing group, 1126 01:23:34,680 --> 01:23:40,360 Speaker 1: the Hutchinson's. Um. The Hutchison's were the most popular folk 1127 01:23:41,120 --> 01:23:46,880 Speaker 1: singers in America, but they were also radical abolitionists and uh, 1128 01:23:46,960 --> 01:23:50,400 Speaker 1: and they were good friends of Sojourners. They spent a 1129 01:23:50,439 --> 01:23:54,679 Speaker 1: lot of time at Northampton, and there there's one abbey, 1130 01:23:54,760 --> 01:23:57,880 Speaker 1: Abby Hutchison is the one, uh young lady in the 1131 01:23:57,960 --> 01:24:02,839 Speaker 1: group there from there there from New Hampshire, and Abby 1132 01:24:03,120 --> 01:24:07,640 Speaker 1: married uh maybe right after or during the Civil War, 1133 01:24:07,800 --> 01:24:11,080 Speaker 1: maybe just before she married a wealthy guy in um, 1134 01:24:11,520 --> 01:24:15,439 Speaker 1: New Jersey, I think. And after so Journer moved to 1135 01:24:15,560 --> 01:24:18,600 Speaker 1: the west. When she would go east, she had a 1136 01:24:18,680 --> 01:24:22,080 Speaker 1: certain certain places where she would stay and one of 1137 01:24:22,120 --> 01:24:26,680 Speaker 1: them was Abbe Hudgison's home. Uh. And Abby was a 1138 01:24:26,800 --> 01:24:32,680 Speaker 1: spiritualist and UH and Abby uh had Cora hatch at 1139 01:24:32,720 --> 01:24:38,080 Speaker 1: her house a lot and Cora and so Journer met 1140 01:24:38,760 --> 01:24:43,360 Speaker 1: at Abby Hudgson whatever her married name was, I can't remember, uh, 1141 01:24:43,560 --> 01:24:48,080 Speaker 1: at Abbey Hudgison's home, and they met there several times, 1142 01:24:48,720 --> 01:24:52,479 Speaker 1: uh that I've found because when so Journer was after 1143 01:24:52,600 --> 01:24:54,920 Speaker 1: she got well and she said, I'm determined to go 1144 01:24:55,120 --> 01:24:58,240 Speaker 1: to Washington and see the freedom of my people. She 1145 01:24:58,520 --> 01:25:03,640 Speaker 1: stayed with Abby Hudson's and Cora was also there. And 1146 01:25:03,800 --> 01:25:09,519 Speaker 1: then Cora went to Washington and and so journal was there. 1147 01:25:09,560 --> 01:25:14,599 Speaker 1: It's a big African American church, um, and the African 1148 01:25:14,640 --> 01:25:19,560 Speaker 1: Americans loved Cora hatch Um and so she spoke a 1149 01:25:19,640 --> 01:25:21,760 Speaker 1: lot of their churches and so journey was there when 1150 01:25:21,840 --> 01:25:26,120 Speaker 1: she spoke, Um, so they and then well then when 1151 01:25:26,160 --> 01:25:30,840 Speaker 1: the conventions began, when the spiritual Spiritualist conventions began after 1152 01:25:31,080 --> 01:25:37,360 Speaker 1: the Civil War. There's one in Rochester that I I'm recalling. Um, 1153 01:25:38,200 --> 01:25:41,160 Speaker 1: both Cora Hatch and so Journal Truth were on the 1154 01:25:41,240 --> 01:25:45,320 Speaker 1: platform and the Amy post papers at the University of Rochester. 1155 01:25:45,720 --> 01:25:51,639 Speaker 1: There are three or four letters from Cora to Amy. Yeah, 1156 01:25:51,680 --> 01:25:53,280 Speaker 1: and those are the ones you describe in the book. 1157 01:25:53,360 --> 01:25:57,240 Speaker 1: I just loved finding that detail. That's amazing. Yeah, yeah, 1158 01:25:57,280 --> 01:26:00,519 Speaker 1: they were, they were very close. It's amazing network of 1159 01:26:00,600 --> 01:26:06,040 Speaker 1: people mm hmm in the in the in the later 1160 01:26:06,160 --> 01:26:09,519 Speaker 1: sixties and then in the seventies. Uh. One of the 1161 01:26:09,600 --> 01:26:11,240 Speaker 1: things you write about the sojourn and was doing a 1162 01:26:11,360 --> 01:26:15,200 Speaker 1: lot was traveling with petitions for land for the freedman 1163 01:26:16,320 --> 01:26:19,479 Speaker 1: um in the midst of the other conventions and the 1164 01:26:19,560 --> 01:26:22,400 Speaker 1: preaching that she continues to do. It seems like those 1165 01:26:22,439 --> 01:26:27,200 Speaker 1: petitions became really the focus of kind of her final years. Um. 1166 01:26:27,360 --> 01:26:29,560 Speaker 1: The energy that she was putting into those. Is that 1167 01:26:29,640 --> 01:26:31,800 Speaker 1: how you would describe kind of the last decade of 1168 01:26:31,840 --> 01:26:36,080 Speaker 1: her life. I think it's really important, um. And the 1169 01:26:36,360 --> 01:26:41,240 Speaker 1: I mean the especially taking the people to Michigan. Um. 1170 01:26:41,560 --> 01:26:44,800 Speaker 1: That was I mean, they remembered her, uh and and 1171 01:26:44,920 --> 01:26:47,280 Speaker 1: they even they even talk about where she let them 1172 01:26:47,280 --> 01:26:51,360 Speaker 1: off um and who she you know, set them up with, 1173 01:26:52,400 --> 01:26:57,439 Speaker 1: and her network. But I think the culminating part of 1174 01:26:57,560 --> 01:27:03,720 Speaker 1: her life was, uh, the Kansas movement. I think when 1175 01:27:03,800 --> 01:27:07,160 Speaker 1: she was trying to get it was one thing that 1176 01:27:07,320 --> 01:27:10,560 Speaker 1: was for sure. It was always about the betterment of 1177 01:27:10,640 --> 01:27:14,200 Speaker 1: the freed people. And and that's why she wanted to 1178 01:27:14,240 --> 01:27:17,599 Speaker 1: get them out of Washington. That movement to get them 1179 01:27:17,680 --> 01:27:23,439 Speaker 1: settled in UM places like Michigan and New York is 1180 01:27:23,520 --> 01:27:27,880 Speaker 1: one movement. And so she does that until eighteen sixty seven, 1181 01:27:27,960 --> 01:27:33,120 Speaker 1: eighteen sixty eight. Then she goes home because the thing 1182 01:27:33,280 --> 01:27:35,920 Speaker 1: is is that she's old and she doesn't have a home. 1183 01:27:37,280 --> 01:27:40,800 Speaker 1: She's got her house in Harmonia, but her daughter and 1184 01:27:40,920 --> 01:27:45,280 Speaker 1: her family, uh, they're living there. So she goes home 1185 01:27:45,360 --> 01:27:50,280 Speaker 1: because she's going to try and build a house for herself. Um. 1186 01:27:50,720 --> 01:27:56,320 Speaker 1: And then then when that's settled, then she starts the 1187 01:27:56,439 --> 01:28:01,600 Speaker 1: movement to Kansas. And that's when the petitions come m 1188 01:28:03,080 --> 01:28:10,120 Speaker 1: So um, the petition movement is about Kansas, and that 1189 01:28:10,400 --> 01:28:15,080 Speaker 1: is I think that is the culminating point of her life. 1190 01:28:15,200 --> 01:28:18,519 Speaker 1: Although she continues to be active. She's very active in 1191 01:28:18,600 --> 01:28:27,800 Speaker 1: the anti capital punishment movement and the temperance movement. H. 1192 01:28:28,240 --> 01:28:31,320 Speaker 1: But I think that UH, in terms of her service 1193 01:28:31,439 --> 01:28:36,439 Speaker 1: to African Americans, it is the petition UH movement to 1194 01:28:37,760 --> 01:28:42,040 Speaker 1: create a black homeland in the West, because black homeland 1195 01:28:42,160 --> 01:28:45,240 Speaker 1: is is the mantra, right, And then it first starts 1196 01:28:45,320 --> 01:28:48,360 Speaker 1: with trying to get them settled in UH and in 1197 01:28:48,479 --> 01:28:51,519 Speaker 1: the west that is the Midwest, western New York, and 1198 01:28:51,600 --> 01:28:55,720 Speaker 1: then UH Michigan. And also I should point out that 1199 01:28:56,880 --> 01:29:00,800 Speaker 1: another group of of these women take people to the 1200 01:29:00,880 --> 01:29:06,240 Speaker 1: East as well. So the idea is to provide a homeland. 1201 01:29:06,320 --> 01:29:12,400 Speaker 1: And then when that's not as viable, then they focus 1202 01:29:12,560 --> 01:29:17,360 Speaker 1: on the Kansas movement. And that's in the eighteen seventies, 1203 01:29:19,680 --> 01:29:23,639 Speaker 1: and so that that occupies her for the most part 1204 01:29:24,040 --> 01:29:28,960 Speaker 1: in the eighteen seventies, and then in three she dies. Yeah, 1205 01:29:30,880 --> 01:29:33,360 Speaker 1: but when she dies. Before she dies, she gives a 1206 01:29:33,439 --> 01:29:39,200 Speaker 1: speech to the Michigan legislature m hm um, and that 1207 01:29:39,479 --> 01:29:42,439 Speaker 1: is on it's either I think it's it's either on 1208 01:29:42,560 --> 01:29:45,280 Speaker 1: capital punishment or temperance. I can't remember. I think it's 1209 01:29:45,320 --> 01:29:51,479 Speaker 1: capital punishment. UM. Yeah, Because she has that great UH 1210 01:29:51,880 --> 01:29:58,760 Speaker 1: statement where Um, she speaks out against executions, and she says, 1211 01:29:58,800 --> 01:30:02,880 Speaker 1: if you want to hang some and hang whiskey, because 1212 01:30:02,920 --> 01:30:07,920 Speaker 1: that causes more damage than anything else. Um. And uh, 1213 01:30:08,000 --> 01:30:11,400 Speaker 1: and then two years later she she passes away. I'm 1214 01:30:11,479 --> 01:30:14,360 Speaker 1: so glad you mentioned that and even that quote, because 1215 01:30:15,040 --> 01:30:17,760 Speaker 1: with the life of the Fox Sisters in particular, we're 1216 01:30:17,760 --> 01:30:20,320 Speaker 1: going to be talking about how bedeviled they were by 1217 01:30:20,760 --> 01:30:24,360 Speaker 1: alcoholism towards the end of their life. Yeah, even in 1218 01:30:24,439 --> 01:30:28,920 Speaker 1: that period, Um, we're coming to the end of our time. Um. 1219 01:30:30,360 --> 01:30:33,960 Speaker 1: The one question that I really forgot to ask you 1220 01:30:34,479 --> 01:30:38,120 Speaker 1: was about the Acroing Convention, which becomes so kind of 1221 01:30:38,240 --> 01:30:43,680 Speaker 1: mythologized with you know that kind of the misquote, the 1222 01:30:43,760 --> 01:30:48,600 Speaker 1: misquoted line. Um, can you give a brief account of 1223 01:30:48,680 --> 01:30:51,240 Speaker 1: the Acuring Convention and how so Journal's kind of most 1224 01:30:51,280 --> 01:30:57,519 Speaker 1: famous line actually falls short of expressing her amazing, really 1225 01:30:57,640 --> 01:31:04,599 Speaker 1: defiant character. Yeah. Well she went to akron um after 1226 01:31:05,560 --> 01:31:09,160 Speaker 1: well before she she was in western New York for 1227 01:31:09,360 --> 01:31:15,120 Speaker 1: the eighteen fifty one Anti Slavery Convention, which was held 1228 01:31:15,160 --> 01:31:19,840 Speaker 1: in Syracuse. And and then um, then she stayed in 1229 01:31:19,920 --> 01:31:24,080 Speaker 1: the area and she was living uh and spending her 1230 01:31:24,160 --> 01:31:29,200 Speaker 1: time with the Post family and Amy told her that 1231 01:31:29,320 --> 01:31:31,760 Speaker 1: there was going to be a convention. And then the 1232 01:31:32,400 --> 01:31:36,559 Speaker 1: Ohio women who were at the Syracuse convention, they were 1233 01:31:36,640 --> 01:31:41,080 Speaker 1: just blown away by her, and they said, would you 1234 01:31:41,200 --> 01:31:46,320 Speaker 1: come to Ohio and UH and give some anti slavery lectures? 1235 01:31:47,280 --> 01:31:50,560 Speaker 1: And that along with what Amy told her about the 1236 01:31:50,600 --> 01:31:55,920 Speaker 1: Woman's convention, because you know, the UH year before eighteen fifty, 1237 01:31:56,280 --> 01:32:00,760 Speaker 1: they had had the first national Woman's Convention and she 1238 01:32:01,000 --> 01:32:04,560 Speaker 1: was a speaker. UM. And so you know, she was 1239 01:32:04,600 --> 01:32:06,720 Speaker 1: already on the network. And there was a lot of 1240 01:32:06,960 --> 01:32:10,519 Speaker 1: controversy because some of the white women felt that UH 1241 01:32:10,760 --> 01:32:13,759 Speaker 1: they were turning the woman's rights movement into an anti 1242 01:32:13,920 --> 01:32:19,200 Speaker 1: slavery movement. UM. So there was that conversation going on. 1243 01:32:20,520 --> 01:32:25,160 Speaker 1: And UM she went to uh Ohio at the behest 1244 01:32:25,479 --> 01:32:29,280 Speaker 1: of UH the abolitionists, but also to go to this 1245 01:32:29,560 --> 01:32:32,680 Speaker 1: convention that Amy had told her about UH and she 1246 01:32:33,200 --> 01:32:36,479 Speaker 1: UM and she wrote that or had someone write that 1247 01:32:36,600 --> 01:32:38,960 Speaker 1: beautiful letter to Amy, you know, saying that you know 1248 01:32:39,120 --> 01:32:41,479 Speaker 1: what she did, she wouldn't hung out with the colored 1249 01:32:41,520 --> 01:32:44,639 Speaker 1: people in Cleveland, and then she went to UH Ohio 1250 01:32:45,600 --> 01:32:49,360 Speaker 1: Akron and UH and met wonderful people just like UH 1251 01:32:49,640 --> 01:32:53,040 Speaker 1: Amy said she would. UM and and you know, as 1252 01:32:53,080 --> 01:32:56,720 Speaker 1: far as she was concerned, there was no controversy so UM. 1253 01:32:56,880 --> 01:33:01,640 Speaker 1: But it was it was very telling, UM, especially in 1254 01:33:01,840 --> 01:33:08,960 Speaker 1: terms of the attitudes towards abolition and merging abolition and 1255 01:33:09,080 --> 01:33:14,160 Speaker 1: women's rights UM, which it's hard to believe, but that 1256 01:33:14,439 --> 01:33:18,200 Speaker 1: was the problem is UM that women, some women saw 1257 01:33:18,360 --> 01:33:21,160 Speaker 1: that they should the two causes should not be connected. 1258 01:33:21,680 --> 01:33:26,960 Speaker 1: That's what UH was the conventional wisdom at the Akron meeting. 1259 01:33:28,000 --> 01:33:32,479 Speaker 1: Because the person who had arranged it was James swiss Ham, 1260 01:33:32,600 --> 01:33:36,040 Speaker 1: who's the same person who had criticized the First Woman's 1261 01:33:36,160 --> 01:33:42,600 Speaker 1: National Convention for UM talking about abolition there UM and 1262 01:33:42,760 --> 01:33:49,360 Speaker 1: so and so Journer went she UM was there with 1263 01:33:49,479 --> 01:33:51,720 Speaker 1: her books. She her book had just been published, so 1264 01:33:51,840 --> 01:33:56,080 Speaker 1: she was gonna sell books. And it's really interesting when 1265 01:33:56,160 --> 01:34:02,160 Speaker 1: she got there, the secretary of the meeting UM saw 1266 01:34:02,280 --> 01:34:06,160 Speaker 1: her claim they didn't have any idea who she was, 1267 01:34:06,800 --> 01:34:10,599 Speaker 1: were embarrassed that there was a colored woman there. UM. 1268 01:34:11,080 --> 01:34:14,640 Speaker 1: And when she saw them, she being so jouring her 1269 01:34:14,640 --> 01:34:18,840 Speaker 1: truth and went right over to them, introduced herself and said, 1270 01:34:18,920 --> 01:34:22,439 Speaker 1: you know, I'm here to attend the convention and to 1271 01:34:22,520 --> 01:34:26,080 Speaker 1: sell some books and UM. And so they bought her 1272 01:34:26,160 --> 01:34:29,439 Speaker 1: books and they were kind of embarrassed about her. Um, 1273 01:34:30,000 --> 01:34:33,559 Speaker 1: but they bought her books anyway, And the next day 1274 01:34:33,600 --> 01:34:37,519 Speaker 1: they had the convention, and so Journer when she wasn't 1275 01:34:37,680 --> 01:34:42,360 Speaker 1: on the platform, she liked to sit at the foot 1276 01:34:42,479 --> 01:34:47,360 Speaker 1: of the platform, and that way, Uh, she could interject things, 1277 01:34:49,240 --> 01:34:53,200 Speaker 1: and and also she could say can I say something? Um, 1278 01:34:54,200 --> 01:34:56,840 Speaker 1: So that's what she did. This went on for a day, 1279 01:34:56,960 --> 01:35:01,800 Speaker 1: and uh, it was quite a volatile meeting because a 1280 01:35:01,880 --> 01:35:03,400 Speaker 1: lot of the men. There were a lot of men 1281 01:35:03,520 --> 01:35:08,200 Speaker 1: there and they were a woman's rights was a very 1282 01:35:08,320 --> 01:35:12,840 Speaker 1: unpopular cause and uh, and so they were challenging the women, 1283 01:35:12,880 --> 01:35:16,479 Speaker 1: and so journal was answering and giving good answers to 1284 01:35:16,720 --> 01:35:19,960 Speaker 1: and so finally on the second day she couldn't stand it, 1285 01:35:20,760 --> 01:35:25,000 Speaker 1: and so she asked Francis Gage, who was the moderator 1286 01:35:25,080 --> 01:35:27,400 Speaker 1: and the president of the convention, if she could speak, 1287 01:35:28,479 --> 01:35:34,559 Speaker 1: and um, Gauge. Gauge was a good abolitionist, a Westerner 1288 01:35:34,640 --> 01:35:37,840 Speaker 1: and good abolitionist. But you know, abolition women abolitionists have 1289 01:35:38,000 --> 01:35:41,640 Speaker 1: to be divided a lot and into various categories. And 1290 01:35:41,760 --> 01:35:46,000 Speaker 1: she was a good political abolitionists, um, which meant that 1291 01:35:46,160 --> 01:35:52,600 Speaker 1: basically she was a free soil person. Uh. And she hesitated, 1292 01:35:52,720 --> 01:35:58,920 Speaker 1: but finally let her speak. UM. And we know, in 1293 01:35:59,040 --> 01:36:01,920 Speaker 1: spite of what France as Gage says, and and uh 1294 01:36:02,000 --> 01:36:05,479 Speaker 1: and also what's in the history of women's suffrage um, 1295 01:36:06,640 --> 01:36:10,000 Speaker 1: that she changed the whole tone of the meeting. UM. 1296 01:36:10,360 --> 01:36:12,320 Speaker 1: And in spite of what what I should point, in 1297 01:36:12,439 --> 01:36:16,280 Speaker 1: spite of what my colleague Carson maybe says, is that 1298 01:36:16,439 --> 01:36:19,880 Speaker 1: you know, none of this really happened. It did happen, um. 1299 01:36:20,720 --> 01:36:24,240 Speaker 1: And she did change the tone of the meeting. One 1300 01:36:24,320 --> 01:36:30,680 Speaker 1: of her friends soon to be friends, who was a 1301 01:36:30,840 --> 01:36:35,080 Speaker 1: student at Oberlin, New Yorker, she and a couple of 1302 01:36:35,160 --> 01:36:37,960 Speaker 1: her girlfriends rented a buggy and drove to the meeting. 1303 01:36:38,160 --> 01:36:41,560 Speaker 1: So they gave an account of what happened. Uh. And 1304 01:36:41,680 --> 01:36:45,559 Speaker 1: that's the firsthand account and and also Marius Robinson's account 1305 01:36:45,960 --> 01:36:50,840 Speaker 1: of it. But we at the time um that this 1306 01:36:51,040 --> 01:36:56,600 Speaker 1: was that the history of women's suffrage Um, discussion of 1307 01:36:56,840 --> 01:37:00,600 Speaker 1: sojournal truth and the speech came out, which was at 1308 01:37:00,640 --> 01:37:03,960 Speaker 1: the turn of the twentieth century. That was the only 1309 01:37:04,080 --> 01:37:06,960 Speaker 1: record of it we had, aside from what Frances Gage 1310 01:37:07,400 --> 01:37:12,320 Speaker 1: wrote twelve years later in eighteen sixty three, in which 1311 01:37:12,400 --> 01:37:16,040 Speaker 1: she published UM. But we had no first hand account. 1312 01:37:16,680 --> 01:37:21,120 Speaker 1: So when sojourner spoke. I mean it was it was 1313 01:37:21,439 --> 01:37:29,120 Speaker 1: really profound. Uh. And she basically established Jesus Christ as 1314 01:37:29,160 --> 01:37:36,080 Speaker 1: a feminist um and basically put on record her own 1315 01:37:37,520 --> 01:37:41,240 Speaker 1: labor as a woman and as a woman who worked 1316 01:37:41,400 --> 01:37:45,560 Speaker 1: like a man. Um and essentially said that you know, 1317 01:37:45,720 --> 01:37:52,720 Speaker 1: women had as much right two everything that men had. Um. 1318 01:37:53,520 --> 01:37:57,800 Speaker 1: And she put it in practical terms, but she also 1319 01:37:57,880 --> 01:38:01,800 Speaker 1: put it in spiritual terms and um, and it was 1320 01:38:02,000 --> 01:38:06,080 Speaker 1: it was a profound answer to these men as um. 1321 01:38:06,360 --> 01:38:14,320 Speaker 1: What is her name, the Oberlin student um who actually 1322 01:38:14,479 --> 01:38:18,840 Speaker 1: after the meeting went on an anti slavery tour with 1323 01:38:19,000 --> 01:38:22,479 Speaker 1: soldour in her truth um and she gives an account 1324 01:38:22,520 --> 01:38:25,040 Speaker 1: of it and um. And we know, in spite of 1325 01:38:25,120 --> 01:38:30,080 Speaker 1: what um the professor who disagrees that it was a 1326 01:38:30,200 --> 01:38:34,519 Speaker 1: powerful speech. Um. And and we also know that men 1327 01:38:34,720 --> 01:38:39,240 Speaker 1: were opposed to women having their rights. So it is 1328 01:38:39,400 --> 01:38:43,679 Speaker 1: controversial because of that theme. Aren't I a woman? Which 1329 01:38:43,800 --> 01:38:49,679 Speaker 1: is Francis Gauge's rhetorical phrase. But Francis Gauge and fairness 1330 01:38:49,760 --> 01:38:54,040 Speaker 1: to her was a novelist, a short story writer. Uh. 1331 01:38:54,400 --> 01:39:00,799 Speaker 1: And she was competing with Harriet Beaterstow, so she wanted 1332 01:39:00,840 --> 01:39:05,960 Speaker 1: to give this a rhetorical flourish um. But basically what 1333 01:39:06,240 --> 01:39:10,080 Speaker 1: she says in her speech in eighteen sixty three, when 1334 01:39:10,120 --> 01:39:14,679 Speaker 1: she the first time she articulates it is so close 1335 01:39:15,040 --> 01:39:19,240 Speaker 1: to what sojourn the Truth said that you can't argue 1336 01:39:19,280 --> 01:39:21,680 Speaker 1: with that. The only thing you can argue with is 1337 01:39:21,760 --> 01:39:28,560 Speaker 1: the phrase ain't I a woman? Um? And the newspapers 1338 01:39:28,720 --> 01:39:35,280 Speaker 1: of the time, who uh, basically recounted what happened, I'll 1339 01:39:35,320 --> 01:39:40,760 Speaker 1: say something very similar. She said she was a woman. Um. 1340 01:39:41,040 --> 01:39:45,720 Speaker 1: I think that's what the New York Tribune says. Um. 1341 01:39:46,240 --> 01:39:51,160 Speaker 1: But they all have some phrase in there, some passage 1342 01:39:51,520 --> 01:39:54,160 Speaker 1: where she addresses, well, I'm a woman and I do 1343 01:39:54,360 --> 01:39:56,680 Speaker 1: this and I do that. So you know, I mean 1344 01:39:56,720 --> 01:40:01,680 Speaker 1: Engauge uh simplified it and you know, gave it repetition. 1345 01:40:02,800 --> 01:40:07,360 Speaker 1: But you know, to me, that's kind of harmless, um, 1346 01:40:07,760 --> 01:40:11,960 Speaker 1: because the idea is the same. If you read Francis 1347 01:40:12,080 --> 01:40:15,160 Speaker 1: Gauge as speech and then you read the article in 1348 01:40:15,280 --> 01:40:20,600 Speaker 1: the Anti Slavery Bugle um that Marius Robinson wrote, you 1349 01:40:20,720 --> 01:40:24,800 Speaker 1: really want other than that phrase. Uh. The spirit is 1350 01:40:24,840 --> 01:40:26,679 Speaker 1: still and they're no. There are a couple of things, 1351 01:40:26,960 --> 01:40:31,880 Speaker 1: um the um. And I know she got this from Stow. 1352 01:40:32,400 --> 01:40:37,040 Speaker 1: She says that so Journal had thirteen children. That's right 1353 01:40:37,080 --> 01:40:41,080 Speaker 1: out of here in beach Stow. Um. And and and 1354 01:40:41,240 --> 01:40:44,640 Speaker 1: when when Stowe wrote that, so Journer said, you know, 1355 01:40:45,479 --> 01:40:50,479 Speaker 1: Mrs Stow lazy and yeah, so she she took that, 1356 01:40:50,640 --> 01:40:54,880 Speaker 1: I mean, Francis Gates took that, uh, that passage from 1357 01:40:55,680 --> 01:40:59,599 Speaker 1: the article that Stowe had written about So Journal Truth. 1358 01:40:59,720 --> 01:41:03,240 Speaker 1: But other than that, it's you know, it is the 1359 01:41:03,360 --> 01:41:09,280 Speaker 1: same you know, the same spirit, same information. Um. But 1360 01:41:09,680 --> 01:41:15,000 Speaker 1: what's interesting most of all to me is obviously there 1361 01:41:15,040 --> 01:41:19,840 Speaker 1: weren't any black women there, otherwise they would not have 1362 01:41:20,040 --> 01:41:23,960 Speaker 1: been so shocked when they saw her. Uh. And the 1363 01:41:24,240 --> 01:41:27,000 Speaker 1: other thing that seems clear is that there's not a 1364 01:41:27,080 --> 01:41:28,720 Speaker 1: whole lot of it wasn't not a whole lot of 1365 01:41:28,840 --> 01:41:34,960 Speaker 1: contact regionally speaking between black and white abolitionists as well 1366 01:41:35,040 --> 01:41:38,160 Speaker 1: as women's rights activists, because they didn't seem to know 1367 01:41:38,280 --> 01:41:42,920 Speaker 1: who So Journal Truth was. That and I found that 1368 01:41:43,000 --> 01:41:50,240 Speaker 1: really shocking. Um. But that may be why the abolitionists 1369 01:41:50,280 --> 01:41:54,040 Speaker 1: in Ohio wanted her to come. And one thing we know, 1370 01:41:54,760 --> 01:41:58,960 Speaker 1: when she left Acarin, everybody knew who she was. Yeah, 1371 01:42:00,080 --> 01:42:01,959 Speaker 1: well it's been two hours. I want to be respectful 1372 01:42:01,960 --> 01:42:05,599 Speaker 1: of your time, Okay, Yeah, Can I ask you one 1373 01:42:05,640 --> 01:42:08,560 Speaker 1: final question to wrap up, Uh, and you kind of 1374 01:42:08,640 --> 01:42:11,320 Speaker 1: touched this at the top of our conversation too. But 1375 01:42:11,560 --> 01:42:15,280 Speaker 1: just as we're thinking about sojourn her truth life, how 1376 01:42:15,439 --> 01:42:19,560 Speaker 1: important is studying spiritualism to understanding sojourn ther truth And 1377 01:42:19,640 --> 01:42:30,920 Speaker 1: how important is studying sochour in truth to understanding spiritualism. Um. 1378 01:42:33,840 --> 01:42:39,120 Speaker 1: Spiritualism was very dear to Sojourner. Ah. So Journer was 1379 01:42:40,200 --> 01:42:44,920 Speaker 1: a woman who was born uh at the tip of 1380 01:42:45,000 --> 01:42:51,960 Speaker 1: the eighteenth century. UM, and she was part of a 1381 01:42:52,080 --> 01:42:54,680 Speaker 1: different world. I mean in a way, she's almost part 1382 01:42:54,720 --> 01:43:01,960 Speaker 1: of the colonial world Mum. And for her spirituality, and 1383 01:43:02,240 --> 01:43:07,680 Speaker 1: that makes her very close to africanness or what we 1384 01:43:07,800 --> 01:43:13,479 Speaker 1: call africanity. And and africanity is the core of it, 1385 01:43:13,680 --> 01:43:18,640 Speaker 1: is spirituality. So it to me it it's almost like 1386 01:43:18,760 --> 01:43:24,879 Speaker 1: a no brainer. UM. And spiritualism, how is that different 1387 01:43:25,080 --> 01:43:29,640 Speaker 1: from spirituality except that people people want to get in 1388 01:43:29,840 --> 01:43:35,880 Speaker 1: touch uh with loved ones who have gone on and 1389 01:43:36,040 --> 01:43:41,000 Speaker 1: an African spirituality that is taken as a given Uh, 1390 01:43:41,400 --> 01:43:45,759 Speaker 1: that your loved ones not only do they not leave, 1391 01:43:46,280 --> 01:43:52,760 Speaker 1: they protect you, they surround you, so they're part of you. UM. 1392 01:43:53,640 --> 01:44:00,760 Speaker 1: And so spiritualism for her was an extension of that UH. 1393 01:44:01,040 --> 01:44:05,800 Speaker 1: And some of the differences I suppose people would say, 1394 01:44:06,800 --> 01:44:11,680 Speaker 1: UH would be the the spiritualists in America tact on 1395 01:44:12,400 --> 01:44:23,800 Speaker 1: certain responsibilities to spiritualism um and and certain social problems 1396 01:44:23,880 --> 01:44:29,479 Speaker 1: to spiritualism. The spiritualism that arose UH in America, a 1397 01:44:29,600 --> 01:44:33,400 Speaker 1: lot of it had to do with, as I would say, 1398 01:44:33,880 --> 01:44:37,880 Speaker 1: pain and loss UM. I mean, I think that's how 1399 01:44:38,360 --> 01:44:41,639 Speaker 1: a lot of it began is especially with women, because 1400 01:44:41,960 --> 01:44:45,519 Speaker 1: it's important to understand spiritualism is very much a part 1401 01:44:45,560 --> 01:44:52,000 Speaker 1: of women's rights and the amount of death and society, 1402 01:44:52,760 --> 01:44:56,320 Speaker 1: the fact that your child was just as likely to 1403 01:44:56,560 --> 01:45:01,760 Speaker 1: die as it was to live. Um. One of the 1404 01:45:01,840 --> 01:45:08,000 Speaker 1: abolitionists had ten children, and the first five died. And 1405 01:45:08,600 --> 01:45:13,640 Speaker 1: and that's a tremendous amount of UH of stress. And 1406 01:45:13,880 --> 01:45:16,760 Speaker 1: one of the things that spiritualism allowed was it was 1407 01:45:16,880 --> 01:45:20,760 Speaker 1: the release of that stress because you have the capacity 1408 01:45:20,840 --> 01:45:25,479 Speaker 1: to think that you were in touch with these uh children, 1409 01:45:25,560 --> 01:45:27,280 Speaker 1: And not only were you in touch with them, but 1410 01:45:27,400 --> 01:45:31,240 Speaker 1: they were happy, uh, no matter how they had suffered 1411 01:45:31,240 --> 01:45:34,880 Speaker 1: from these horrible childhood diseases that they died from. So 1412 01:45:35,160 --> 01:45:42,479 Speaker 1: it was spiritualism was connecting life and death um and 1413 01:45:42,840 --> 01:45:45,760 Speaker 1: and and I think that that that's important. Spiritualism was 1414 01:45:45,800 --> 01:45:51,360 Speaker 1: important to life and women I think needed that, and 1415 01:45:51,520 --> 01:45:55,200 Speaker 1: not only women, but men as well. You know, Abraham Lincoln, 1416 01:45:55,280 --> 01:45:59,840 Speaker 1: after his son Willie died, went to a spiritualists um. 1417 01:46:00,400 --> 01:46:05,479 Speaker 1: His wife convinced him to go. And she became interested 1418 01:46:05,560 --> 01:46:10,880 Speaker 1: in spiritualism because her um, what would you call this 1419 01:46:10,960 --> 01:46:14,439 Speaker 1: woman dressmaker? Uh, she was more than a dressmaker, she 1420 01:46:14,600 --> 01:46:17,880 Speaker 1: was a confidence. She was a dressmaker, she dressed her hair, 1421 01:46:18,360 --> 01:46:22,960 Speaker 1: but she was a former slave and um, and her 1422 01:46:23,120 --> 01:46:27,920 Speaker 1: son had passed for white so he could join the 1423 01:46:28,080 --> 01:46:31,200 Speaker 1: Union Army at a time when they weren't taking black people. 1424 01:46:32,680 --> 01:46:37,600 Speaker 1: And and he was killed almost immediately. And that was 1425 01:46:37,680 --> 01:46:42,639 Speaker 1: her only child. And so spiritualism was very important to her. 1426 01:46:44,000 --> 01:46:48,080 Speaker 1: And then after Willie Lincoln died, then she introduced Mary 1427 01:46:48,160 --> 01:46:52,280 Speaker 1: Todd Lincoln to spiritualism and and and Mary Todd Lincoln 1428 01:46:52,280 --> 01:46:55,000 Speaker 1: took it very seriously and even got Abraham Lincoln to 1429 01:46:55,600 --> 01:46:58,840 Speaker 1: go to one. Um. It didn't relieve him, but it 1430 01:46:59,040 --> 01:47:01,240 Speaker 1: was a form of relief, was a form of solace, 1431 01:47:01,560 --> 01:47:04,320 Speaker 1: It was a form of faith. Uh. And so I 1432 01:47:04,439 --> 01:47:09,639 Speaker 1: think that spiritualism is really important to understanding the lives 1433 01:47:09,800 --> 01:47:19,360 Speaker 1: of these people and their activism. Thank you, that's beautiful. Hey, folks, 1434 01:47:19,520 --> 01:47:22,639 Speaker 1: it's Aaron here. I hope today's interview helped you deepen 1435 01:47:22,720 --> 01:47:26,400 Speaker 1: your understanding of everything involved in the world of spiritualism. 1436 01:47:26,760 --> 01:47:29,560 Speaker 1: But we're not done yet. We have more interviews to 1437 01:47:29,600 --> 01:47:32,360 Speaker 1: share with you, so stick around after this brief sponsor 1438 01:47:32,439 --> 01:47:43,320 Speaker 1: break to hear a preview of next week's interview. Next 1439 01:47:43,360 --> 01:47:47,839 Speaker 1: time on un Obscured. The Catholic Church in New Orleans 1440 01:47:48,160 --> 01:47:52,080 Speaker 1: supports the Confederacy very strongly. During the Civil War, there's 1441 01:47:52,320 --> 01:47:56,520 Speaker 1: this one very outspoken abolitionist priests who's threatened with excommunication 1442 01:47:56,880 --> 01:48:00,920 Speaker 1: and has his church shut down. Priest regular literally would 1443 01:48:00,960 --> 01:48:06,960 Speaker 1: refuse to give Eucharist to black Catholic men in Union uniforms. 1444 01:48:07,880 --> 01:48:11,800 Speaker 1: There would be ceremonies, the spirits would refer to the 1445 01:48:12,040 --> 01:48:17,680 Speaker 1: ceremonies blessing Confederate flags during the Catholic Mass. So the 1446 01:48:18,240 --> 01:48:21,439 Speaker 1: Catholic Church locally is in support of the Confederacy even 1447 01:48:21,560 --> 01:48:24,679 Speaker 1: during the Union occupation of the city and the spirits 1448 01:48:24,760 --> 01:48:28,640 Speaker 1: delivered tons of messages about the materialism and greed of 1449 01:48:28,760 --> 01:48:31,840 Speaker 1: the Catholic Church and its priests, that the Catholic Church 1450 01:48:32,160 --> 01:48:35,360 Speaker 1: and wants money and secrets, money and secrets, money and secrets. 1451 01:48:51,840 --> 01:48:54,720 Speaker 1: A lot Obscured was created by me, Aaron Manky and 1452 01:48:54,800 --> 01:48:58,080 Speaker 1: produced by Matt Frederick, Alex Williams, and Josh Thayne in 1453 01:48:58,200 --> 01:49:01,479 Speaker 1: partnership with I Heart Radio. Research and writing for this 1454 01:49:01,600 --> 01:49:03,720 Speaker 1: season is all the work of my right hand man 1455 01:49:03,920 --> 01:49:07,120 Speaker 1: Carl Nellis and the brilliant Chad Lawson composed the brand 1456 01:49:07,160 --> 01:49:11,679 Speaker 1: new soundtrack. Learn more about our contributing historians, source material 1457 01:49:11,920 --> 01:49:15,040 Speaker 1: and links to our other shows over at history unobscured 1458 01:49:15,360 --> 01:49:27,400 Speaker 1: dot com, And until next time, thanks for listening Unobscured 1459 01:49:27,439 --> 01:49:29,400 Speaker 1: as a production of I Heart Radio and Aaron Minkey. 1460 01:49:29,680 --> 01:49:32,200 Speaker 1: For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit diheart Radio app, 1461 01:49:32,320 --> 01:49:34,759 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.