Speaker 1: This is Dana Perkins and you're listening to Switched on
Speaker 1: the b and EF podcast, and today we're bringing you
Speaker 1: a special show focused on the b and EF Pioneers Program.
Speaker 1: Each year, BNAF Pioneers awards outstanding early stage companies in
Speaker 1: climate tech that could make a real difference in decarbonization
Speaker 1: or biodiversity. We'll start today's show by speaking with Benjamin Caffrey,
Speaker 1: co chair of the Pioneers Program. Benji, thanks so much
Speaker 1: for joining us today.
Speaker 2: Thanks for inviting me again. It's great to be here.
Speaker 1: So before we talk about BNF Pioneers and the challenges
Speaker 1: and the interviews that we're going to get into with
Speaker 1: a few of this year's winners, why don't you explain
Speaker 1: to everyone listening what BNAF Pioneers is.
Speaker 3: So.
Speaker 2: BNF Pioneers Program, it's basically our way to reward exciting
Speaker 2: climate tech innovation. We have been running it for fifteen years,
Speaker 2: so it's our fifteen years anniversary and it's basically innovators
Speaker 2: competition and every year we'll try and pick three unsolved
Speaker 2: climate innovation gaps to focus on, and we'll have a
Speaker 2: force category that we call the Wildcards. So any other
Speaker 2: innovative climate technology, and we look at how innovative and
Speaker 2: original these ventures are, and we'll also look into basically
Speaker 2: the momentum they have and how successful they could be,
Speaker 2: and very importantly the impact that they have are there
Speaker 2: on climate, on biodiversity. So kind of these are the
Speaker 2: three criterias, and we'll go through the process and celebrate
Speaker 2: the winners at the end.
Speaker 1: So we've been doing Pioneers for as long as I've
Speaker 1: been at BNF, so we've reached a milestone anniversary this year,
Speaker 1: so fifteen years of doing Pioneers. But in addition to that,
Speaker 1: you know, what are some of the ways that you
Speaker 1: measure the successes maybe not necessarily of pioneers, but of
Speaker 1: the companies themselves, And what are some of the you know, facts,
Speaker 1: We love a good figure on the show, So what's
Speaker 1: a fact and figure that might illustrate that for us?
Speaker 2: So in fifteen years, we have one hundred and fifty
Speaker 2: two winners, alumni winners, and they have been quite successful.
Speaker 2: They have raised cumulatively more than twenty billion dollars of
Speaker 2: the years, one point three billion actually in the last year,
Speaker 2: which wasn't an easy one for venture raising. And they
Speaker 2: have had a lot of success story. Around forty percent
Speaker 2: of the Pioneers at an exit, so either through an
Speaker 2: M and A or going to the public market, and
Speaker 2: a similar amount of them and another thirty to forty
Speaker 2: percent are still going and raise money in the last
Speaker 2: few years, so really good success rate.
Speaker 1: And today we're going to feature a wild card because
Speaker 1: there's always something that we just can't leave on the table,
Speaker 1: So we will feature a wildcard today in true being
Speaker 1: a fashion. But what is the formal challenge that we're
Speaker 1: also going to feature a couple of winners from on
Speaker 1: today's show.
Speaker 2: So one of the challenges for this year was creating
Speaker 2: the next generation of zero fuels, and we'll focus on
Speaker 2: the winners from that challenge, and as you said, our
Speaker 2: biodiversity winner from the wildcard category.
Speaker 1: So there are no shortage of climate tech areas that
Speaker 1: need innovation of the mom and we're looking ahead to
Speaker 1: our next set of Pioneers challenges, So can you tell
Speaker 1: us what those three are? And of course there'll be
Speaker 1: a wildcard, But what are the three challenges that we
Speaker 1: are actively receiving applications for right now?
Speaker 2: So next year challenges are both super important and super interesting.
Speaker 2: The first one is that around making light industry more sustainable,
Speaker 2: so looking anything from textile to semiconductor industry and how
Speaker 2: they can decarbonize. The second one is all innovation around storage,
Speaker 2: and the third one is innovation around climate adaptation.
Speaker 1: So if you or someone you know would fit as
Speaker 1: an innovator in one of these categories, you can apply
Speaker 1: and learn more about pioneers by going to about dot
Speaker 1: BNF dot com forward slash BNF Pioneers, and you'll also
Speaker 1: be able to see previous challenges and learn about some
Speaker 1: of the winners from previous years, including some of the
Speaker 1: people we're going to feature on today's show, which then
Speaker 1: brings us to those we're going to hear from today.
Speaker 1: So we will be speaking with Nicholas Ball, who's the
Speaker 1: CEO of x Fuel, Mike DeCamp, president and CEO of Covercress,
Speaker 1: and Dimple Patel, CEO of Nature Metrics. So let's get
Speaker 1: into our first conversation, which is with Nicholas Ball, the
Speaker 1: CEO of x Fuel. Now x fuel have pioneered a
Speaker 1: technology that converts biomass waste into a low carbon drop
Speaker 1: in fuel. Let's talk to Nicholas about how they've gone
Speaker 1: about that. I am joined today with our guest from
Speaker 1: x Fuel, Nicholas hi th So we're here to talk
Speaker 1: about x fuel, but before we get into the solutions
Speaker 1: from the company that you know, you are here to
Speaker 1: tell us more about let's talk about transportation broadly and
Speaker 1: really what attracted you to it, but really the scale
Speaker 1: of the problem with decarbonizing transport, which is certainly something
Speaker 1: BNF is watching closely. But you know from your perspective,
Speaker 1: why is transport such an important sector for us to
Speaker 1: before focused on.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, I think it's one of the most let's
Speaker 3: say important sectors because it's one of those blind spots
Speaker 3: that people are not quite thinking about as much as
Speaker 3: they probably should. So, you know, transportation emits. I think
Speaker 3: it's over eight giga tons of certwo COO per year.
Speaker 3: It's about fifteen percent of global emissions and growing. But
Speaker 3: I think what people don't realize, and this came out
Speaker 3: of the idea that the oil consumption for shipping and
Speaker 3: aviation specifically, and you probably are aware that's the hardest to abate.
Speaker 3: Let's say, sectors within transportation is actually protected to increase
Speaker 3: over sixty percent by twenty fifty with the current policies
Speaker 3: in place. So this is a huge problem. And really
Speaker 3: it comes down to the fact that there aren't solutions
Speaker 3: that are either viable, so you know, not electrication or
Speaker 3: things like that, or they're simply not dropped in and
Speaker 3: of course they're too expensive typically what we'd find with
Speaker 3: liquid fuels. But yeah, that's the main issue in transportation.
Speaker 1: Well, so that industry issue is there. But why you
Speaker 1: what drew you to this space?
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I have a mixed background in general. My
Speaker 3: background is a blend of kind of academia, industry, and
Speaker 3: a general personal commitment to sustainability. I have kind of
Speaker 3: a strong foundation in science and engineering, you know, PhD
Speaker 3: from Peer College, so it's a very different area and
Speaker 3: the more technical side. From a personal level, you know,
Speaker 3: I grew up in the Mediterranean, I live in the Mediterranean.
Speaker 3: I have a love for nature, for the environment, and
Speaker 3: I never really had a clear way of joining those
Speaker 3: two parts of my life until I actually met my
Speaker 3: CTO and our CEO. Originally, I actually was a founder
Speaker 3: in the company, an investor founder, i should say, so,
Speaker 3: I was an investor in that respect, and I just
Speaker 3: saw the developments of the technology go on and on
Speaker 3: and realized that I could really make a difference and
Speaker 3: be part of the team and support them and the
Speaker 3: development of the technology and the commercialization of it specifically.
Speaker 3: So it was actually out of I would say luck
Speaker 3: that I got to transition into a sector that I
Speaker 3: love and I'm passionate about, but never really had a
Speaker 3: firm footing it, And so like a lot of us,
Speaker 3: I actually started learning about it more and more during
Speaker 3: that phase, during the investment phase and being part of
Speaker 3: the board and then moving onto the management team about
Speaker 3: four years ago, and combine my technical business acumen as
Speaker 3: well as a sustainability and love for that. I met
Speaker 3: my co founder's CEO, who was very passionate around technologies
Speaker 3: that can disrupt the status quob So the technology has
Speaker 3: been developed over a number of years in our company,
Speaker 3: but his essentially frustration came out of the core belief
Speaker 3: that low carbon fuels will have to be drop in
Speaker 3: and economically competitive with fossil fuels to really achieve any
Speaker 3: significant market share and actually have an impact. And I
Speaker 3: brought into that and I still do right, I think
Speaker 3: that still is the case, and of course now we
Speaker 3: have policies and changing, but my I think love for
Speaker 3: the fact that we can disrupt this market and it's
Speaker 3: so right for disruption because there are just so few
Speaker 3: options and solutions brought me into the sustainability side and
Speaker 3: actually developing this company.
Speaker 2: So tell us more about kind of your solution and technologies.
Speaker 3: Well, we've you know, we spent a number of years
Speaker 3: of developing a kind of wide range of different technologies
Speaker 3: for the industry. We've developed one which focuses more on
Speaker 3: on ligno cellistic biomass. I should probably mention that all
Speaker 3: our products are aiming to be drop in solutions, and
Speaker 3: maybe I should unpack what that really means. Drop in
Speaker 3: solutions mean that we produce a fuel that meets the
Speaker 3: current fossil fuel specifications and can be inter changed with
Speaker 3: current fuels without requiring any infrastructure or deployment. And so
Speaker 3: that's a really important point for us because we think
Speaker 3: when we speak to customers, you know, if they have
Speaker 3: to deploy other kind of infrastructure or capex, that that's
Speaker 3: a big barrier to entry. But we've essentially developed technologies
Speaker 3: in this space working with different waste materials, and we
Speaker 3: focus solely on waste to be able to bring down
Speaker 3: the cost of them and develop them a wide ramage
Speaker 3: of different technologies to achieve that.
Speaker 2: We'd love to hear more how your technology is different
Speaker 2: than what I've been tried so far?
Speaker 1: Yeah, and also what you have tried so far. I mean,
Speaker 1: how many things did you have to get wrong in
Speaker 1: order to get it right?
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, we were still trying to get things right.
Speaker 3: I should say that I think we all are right.
Speaker 3: So there's no bullet proof solutions here. But we've developed
Speaker 3: two different technologies and we have to plants deployed on
Speaker 3: this already. But one technology really focuses on waste from
Speaker 3: the let's say agriculture industry and forestry, and she basically
Speaker 3: ligmicellarsy biomass, and the intention here is to bring essentially
Speaker 3: a drop in fuel from ligma cellar sig materials and
Speaker 3: waste oils and produce a fuel for the shipping industry.
Speaker 3: But at the same time, I think what's beautiful about
Speaker 3: this particular technology is that we also produce biochart and
Speaker 3: it has a lot of additional benefits from greenss, gas
Speaker 3: savings and such. The other technology we developed is more
Speaker 3: of a kind of second step to this, which is
Speaker 3: what we call clear or chemical liquid refining CLR. And
Speaker 3: this is more of a refining, cracking, and essentially deeply
Speaker 3: sufturization technology. And don't want to go to technical unless
Speaker 3: some of your listeners are technical, but essentially we can
Speaker 3: take you know, contaminated and low quality hydrocarbon liquids and
Speaker 3: tenement to very high spec marine road in aviation fuels.
Speaker 3: And we've been using this more and more with different applications,
Speaker 3: and not just a bolt onto our mech technology, but
Speaker 3: as a standalone technology which can create some pretty impressive
Speaker 3: fuels from both the technology perspective but also from an
Speaker 3: economic perspective stainability perspectively.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure plenty of our listeners are very technical,
Speaker 1: but I'm going to zoom way out because one of
Speaker 1: the things we really try and do on this show
Speaker 1: are explainers, and biochar is one of them. So we
Speaker 1: actually had a biochar producer as a previous Pioneers winner.
Speaker 1: But for those who are not familiar with biochar, would
Speaker 1: you explain what that is?
Speaker 3: Biochart essentially the paralysis nature of any biomass or igno
Speaker 3: cellosic biomass and turning it into a form which would
Speaker 3: permanently store the carbon within it. So in using that
Speaker 3: in different materials or in the forresterry industry, or if
Speaker 3: you're essentially bearing it in a low oxygen ambient, you
Speaker 3: can assure that the carbon that is within that would
Speaker 3: be locked away, so it can be used in other materials.
Speaker 3: And there are forms within or let's say, materials within
Speaker 3: biochart which can be used in other industries, and that
Speaker 3: can include graphine and other things. But in this particular case,
Speaker 3: what we're using it for is for the carbon sequestration
Speaker 3: benefits of the process. And excitingly enough, where I think
Speaker 3: the one of the only technologies that can produce for
Speaker 3: talking about mechia can produce both a drop in transportation
Speaker 3: fuel and biotart at the same time, which allows us
Speaker 3: to allocate these savings to our fuels themselves and achieve
Speaker 3: some carbon negative fuels some pretty exciting steps in the future.
Speaker 2: You mentioned feedstock just before. I mean, how important is
Speaker 2: to secure enough feedstock? Is that an issue at all?
Speaker 2: And kind of diversity of feedstock that you could use
Speaker 2: it is.
Speaker 3: A huge problem for a wider impact perspective, So you
Speaker 3: keep in mind right currently the low carbon fuels make
Speaker 3: up two percent of all essentially liquid fuels in the
Speaker 3: market today, and of that all of them are practically biofuels.
Speaker 3: I think it's ninety five or ninety eight percent is biofuels.
Speaker 3: The reason why we haven't scaled is obviously economics, but
Speaker 3: also the scalabilities. You say, so securing these feedstocks is
Speaker 3: critical from that perspective, but from a company that is
Speaker 3: growing and market opportunity, there are plenty of opportunities, especially
Speaker 3: working with ligno cellusic waste and biomass waste in general,
Speaker 3: there's a lot of that material around. Our other technology
Speaker 3: does focus on other feedstocks, which kind of gives us
Speaker 3: a bit more let's say, flexibility in terms of what
Speaker 3: we can use now as.
Speaker 1: A drop in fuel, you've removed the need to actually
Speaker 1: spend money by the purchaser and your client in retrofitting
Speaker 1: or buying different ships and equipment on their end. But
Speaker 1: are they getting the same energy density from the fuel
Speaker 1: that you're providing, And really what I'm asking is so
Speaker 1: they have to refuel more often or less often or.
Speaker 3: The same No, That's it's a fantastic question, and it's
Speaker 3: something that we see with other alternative fuels, where you
Speaker 3: would typically have half densities or something like that. In
Speaker 3: our case, we meet the sophistications for the fuels themselves,
Speaker 3: which actually have the same energy densities as the current
Speaker 3: fossil fuels. So this is what we aim for and
Speaker 3: would essentially have the same fueling needs in using our products,
Speaker 3: and we think that's really important. And also being able
Speaker 3: to use it and handle it. A lot of the
Speaker 3: operational site, a lot of the bunkering side is a
Speaker 3: lot simpler when you're using a product that they already
Speaker 3: familiar with. So that's something that we are proud of
Speaker 3: and something that we think is it critical, especially for
Speaker 3: industries like the shipping industry. You may not be aware
Speaker 3: of this. In the shipping industry, many let's say companies
Speaker 3: in that industry don't actually own their own fleets, so
Speaker 3: they actually have very little power in actually doing any
Speaker 3: infrastructure changes or retrofitting to ships because they don't even
Speaker 3: own them. They're leasing them. So this is a problem
Speaker 3: we see often, and the fact that they can use
Speaker 3: a product which can be interchange in their current fleets
Speaker 3: without any problems from their fleet owners, that's a big win.
Speaker 2: So can you tell us where you are on the
Speaker 2: kind of journey of developing the technology is kind of
Speaker 2: where you are now and where you are heading.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So we essentially build two demonstration plants quite quite
Speaker 3: large scale at this stage, and we're now developing our
Speaker 3: first commercial facility. We're going through a round of investment
Speaker 3: to support that and also have the let's say backing
Speaker 3: sort of speak of shipping companies alike who are interested
Speaker 3: in the product and wanting to off take that. So
Speaker 3: we're now going through this process. Right now, We've got
Speaker 3: our grenice gas savings validated for these products, which gives
Speaker 3: a lot of confidence in the market, and we're looking
Speaker 3: to scale up production essentially about technologies. It's an exciting
Speaker 3: step right now in our company.
Speaker 1: So you can't say we've got our greenhouse gas savings
Speaker 1: validated without telling us what those savings are.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So of our demo plant, in our mech technology,
Speaker 3: we've actually got certification already ICIC plus and I see
Speaker 3: you to say formed certification for validating green ass gases.
Speaker 3: Keep in mind that fuels are generally in the regulated markets,
Speaker 3: especially in the EU, and so we have to meet
Speaker 3: those kind of regulations. The validations have shown for our
Speaker 3: mech fuels can achieve up to one hundred and forty
Speaker 3: five percent green ass acid, which is a very high number. Essentially,
Speaker 3: what this means is if you use our fuel, you
Speaker 3: are not only contributing to carbon avoidance, but you're actually
Speaker 3: contributing to carbon removal. So you're doing good. You're actually
Speaker 3: removing carbon and sort of speak from an accounting perspective,
Speaker 3: you're removing carbon from the atmosphere and using our fuels,
Speaker 3: we believe that's one of the most sustainable fuels out
Speaker 3: there in terms of the green ass gas savings perspective,
Speaker 3: So that's exciting. And with our clear product, which is
Speaker 3: really where we're going to market with and what we're
Speaker 3: starting out with first, it is lower benchmarks up to
Speaker 3: eighty five percent green as gas sevings. But really the
Speaker 3: intention with this product and this technology is to focus
Speaker 3: on affordability. So we're really looking to bring a product
Speaker 3: to market that does not cost any ship owner any
Speaker 3: more than what they're currently essentially paying for in this
Speaker 3: typical product that we produce, which is marine gas oil.
Speaker 3: So that's something that I think will disrupt the market entirely,
Speaker 3: providing a product that can compete with fossil fuels and
Speaker 3: still have certified greenass gass that are meaningful. That's where
Speaker 3: I think you have real impact is combining those two
Speaker 3: elements economics with sustainability.
Speaker 2: So what kind of scale do you need in terms
Speaker 2: of production to be able to offer it at the
Speaker 2: same price plus the environmental bonus? And yeah, and how
Speaker 2: are you going to go about financing it? I mean,
Speaker 2: one of the challenges we see for climate deep tech
Speaker 2: is kind of moving to first of a kind large
Speaker 2: production where you need kind of bigger amounts, maybe too
Speaker 2: big for the early VC buckers, but still too risky
Speaker 2: for the banks. What's your solution.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think, I mean in general and climateech and
Speaker 3: sustainable fuels, that is definitely one of the hurdles for us.
Speaker 3: You know, we can achieve significantly the cost price of
Speaker 3: the product itself significantly below fossil pricing at a scale
Speaker 3: that is around what our first commercial proNT is, which
Speaker 3: is around what we call a C two, which is
Speaker 3: around fourteen thousand tons product per year, which is very
Speaker 3: small in the market, but it gives us an idea
Speaker 3: of the scale that we're starting out with our first module.
Speaker 3: To actually back these projects, we're using a combination of
Speaker 3: obviously equity dollars, you know, benure capital. The return on
Speaker 3: the money and the efficiency of capital that we have
Speaker 3: on these projects is so high that we don't need
Speaker 3: to raise that much to actually deploy these kind of
Speaker 3: single modules, but to scale things up even further, and
Speaker 3: that's obviously our plan. We have pipeline projects with large
Speaker 3: shipping companies and others that we're working on. We're looking
Speaker 3: to obviously leverage the fact that we're using a modular plant,
Speaker 3: so we have our first module deployed and then going
Speaker 3: to banking and essentially an infrastructure funds and showing that
Speaker 3: multiple modules has actually no risk in what we've already
Speaker 3: done before. So that that's one, let's say, strategy, and
Speaker 3: the other strategies, of course leveraging ship owners and shipping
Speaker 3: companies that want the product, especially when they want it
Speaker 3: affordable product which doesn't exist in the market today. And
Speaker 3: the way to leverage that is say, well, if you
Speaker 3: want the product, you need to support the project financing,
Speaker 3: and that's also something we're in discussions with so they
Speaker 3: may get discounts on the product in supporting on project financing,
Speaker 3: but that allows us to deploy larger projects in the
Speaker 3: short term until we get to bankability.
Speaker 1: Well, because you've said that this is a drop in
Speaker 1: fuel first of also works with the existing infrastructure in
Speaker 1: the ships. It's going to be cost equivalent, so not
Speaker 1: at a hefty greenium premium that we so often find
Speaker 1: actually with the lower carbon solutions, at least when they're
Speaker 1: initially starting out, and then as things scale sometimes you
Speaker 1: get the inverse effect, as we see in many places
Speaker 1: with wind and solar technology and the energy sector for example.
Speaker 1: But you know what's the catch essentially, like, what is
Speaker 1: going to stop this from being widespread and everywhere? I
Speaker 1: mean policy would certainly spread forward, but in even cost
Speaker 1: you would think that most companies would adopt it. So
Speaker 1: how is it not going to be absolutely everywhere?
Speaker 3: Well, the main herder we have for the cheapest product
Speaker 3: we have and we're using it as more of a
Speaker 3: Trocian course, so to speak, to build market share in
Speaker 3: our company and then be able to provide other options
Speaker 3: to the industry. But the main issue there is scalability
Speaker 3: for this first let's say, cheapest product, there's only so
Speaker 3: much for example, shipping waste that we're looking at. We
Speaker 3: are looking at other wasts that they're in the same
Speaker 3: category that we could do it a lot good, but
Speaker 3: for us to make a big difference across the market, well,
Speaker 3: and you've got to remember, you know, this is a
Speaker 3: multi trillion dollar market, right, so us doing successfully or
Speaker 3: doing well is still only going to be a fraction
Speaker 3: of the market. You know, this is going to take
Speaker 3: a humongous effort across all players, both oil and gas
Speaker 3: and innovation and startups to actually move the needle. So
Speaker 3: the catch is for the cheapest product is that, yes,
Speaker 3: there is a limit to how much we can do
Speaker 3: and produce. For our subsequent product, which is from our
Speaker 3: mech technology, the scalability factor is not an issue, but
Speaker 3: they will be a premium and the question is is
Speaker 3: it too high or is it will it be enough?
Speaker 3: At this stage, we're very close or pretty much the
Speaker 3: same as the mad competitor, which has a limitation on
Speaker 3: scalability which would be kind of hbos and hefas basically
Speaker 3: from use cooking oil. We're a similar cost factor as
Speaker 3: that technology using Ligno celebrity, So we are getting that,
Speaker 3: but that technology is still on the development and we
Speaker 3: hope to be able to kind of unlock the scalability
Speaker 3: question in the future.
Speaker 1: That's where then policy can certainly move things forward. And
Speaker 1: I'm thinking in the shipping industry, so sulfur has been
Speaker 1: one of those things that's been more heavily regulated. Is
Speaker 1: there a difference there as well, and is there any
Speaker 1: environmental benefit from a sulfur standpoint.
Speaker 3: It's a great question because we've only just started looking
Speaker 3: at from that perspective. So the technology we do have
Speaker 3: in theory can desulfurize high sulfur fuels. I mean from
Speaker 3: a greenhouse gas perspective, there isn't much benefit because you know,
Speaker 3: at the end of the day, if you're taking fossil
Speaker 3: high sulfur fuels, of course there is limited benefits there.
Speaker 3: But from an air pollution perspective and from a general
Speaker 3: kind of environmental perspective, there is any benefits to that.
Speaker 3: And so that is something we're kind of getting asked
Speaker 3: a lot by, as you can imagine, because that has
Speaker 3: a huge, wide applications across the world for desulfarizing kind
Speaker 3: of heavy sulfur fuels. It's not our priority and it's
Speaker 3: not really our focus at the moment, but it does
Speaker 3: our technology does have that application, right, it can be
Speaker 3: used for something like that.
Speaker 1: Nicholas thank you very much for joining today and talking
Speaker 1: to us not only about the shipping industry, but you
Speaker 1: know we could spend much longer also talking about decarbonizing aviation.
Speaker 1: So how x fuel is tackling decarbonizing hard to abate transport.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: Next we'll hear from Mike to Camp, president and CEO
Speaker 1: of Covercress. Covercress have converted a common winter weed into
Speaker 1: a novel crop that can be used for everything from
Speaker 1: animal feed to biofuels. Mike, thank you very much for
Speaker 1: joining on.
Speaker 4: Switched on today, Hidiana, It's so great to be here.
Speaker 2: So tell us more about covercress. I mean, my understanding
Speaker 2: the feedstock is, you know the type of weed you'll
Speaker 2: see on the side of the road driving in the US,
Speaker 2: and how you guys kind of managed to bring it
Speaker 2: into a really good feedstock for buyfield.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Benji's that's exactly right. I mean, it would not
Speaker 4: be uncommon. So when you come to visit, if it's
Speaker 4: the right time of the year, I will point out
Speaker 4: to you pennycrest growing in a ditch somewhere along the
Speaker 4: side of the road, and you can see the weed
Speaker 4: version of what we started with. But let me give
Speaker 4: credit where credit's due. Actually, so this concept started with
Speaker 4: the USDA. There's a gentleman there, researcher, doctor Terry Isbel,
Speaker 4: who was tasked in the mid two thousands by the
Speaker 4: USDA thinking through what are other agriculture based feedstocks that
Speaker 4: could be used to make renewable fuels. So we had
Speaker 4: gone through a big cycle with corn and corn going
Speaker 4: to ethanol, and that put a lot up became clear.
Speaker 4: While it was a great opportunity for farmers to have
Speaker 4: a new outlet for their corn crops is a feedstock
Speaker 4: for making fuel. It put a lot of pressure on
Speaker 4: that crop right relative to our food and feed needs
Speaker 4: and looking for alternative sources, and doctor Isabel quickly identified pennycrests.
Speaker 4: And there are probably two main reasons pennycrest rose to
Speaker 4: the forefront of all the different crops he was looking at.
Speaker 4: One is it's a winter crop, right, so it grows
Speaker 4: during a fallow period here in the Midwest. It grows
Speaker 4: in between a corn and soybean rotation, so there's no
Speaker 4: new land that's needed right, So right away that's a plus.
Speaker 4: If you're trying to do something from a sustainability standpoint,
Speaker 4: then you don't want to displace the acres that are
Speaker 4: already being used for your main crops. It's great to
Speaker 4: be able to use that same land that's otherwise sitting idol.
Speaker 4: So that's one, and then second is the oil content.
Speaker 4: So Pennycress has a very high oil content. We're about
Speaker 4: thirty percent of the seed is oil and the rest
Speaker 4: of it's the meal protein side. And just to put
Speaker 4: that in perspective for the listeners, if you think about soybeans,
Speaker 4: soybeans are about twenty percent oil. So soybeans are a
Speaker 4: very important oil seed. They are using in a lot
Speaker 4: of different markets. They're a big contributor as a feedstock
Speaker 4: source for renewable fuels. So having, you know, fifty percent
Speaker 4: more oil means a lot right in the production of anything.
Speaker 4: If you can that fifty percent more efficient supply source,
Speaker 4: that's a real positive thing. So that's what caught doctor
Speaker 4: Isbel's attention, and then through various public and private partnerships,
Speaker 4: cover Cress, which was founded in twenty thirteen, started to
Speaker 4: move that forward from the idea stage identified with the
Speaker 4: USDA into initially going through our product development research stage
Speaker 4: to see if we can really make this a product
Speaker 4: make this a true crop, and then where we are
Speaker 4: today in terms of actually being in a commercial market.
Speaker 1: Can you talk a bit about the technology and the
Speaker 1: innovation that really goes into this. Because the pennycress has
Speaker 1: an element to it that is then genetically modified that
Speaker 1: makes it basically the crop that is actually being used
Speaker 1: in this capacity. How did that come about and what
Speaker 1: are really the big differences?
Speaker 4: Yeah, maybe, Dana, just one correction. I think it's really important.
Speaker 4: Right when we use the word genetically modified, there's really
Speaker 4: two terms that are used when a plant is altered.
Speaker 4: So genetic modification which is something that monsanle bear today,
Speaker 4: cortivas and genta, a lot of others I've used for
Speaker 4: a long time now, and that's actually where you're taking
Speaker 4: foreign DNA and serting it into a plant to create
Speaker 4: an outcome. Right, So that's genetic modification. The other one
Speaker 4: is gene editing. Gene editing is much different. Gene editing
Speaker 4: is really similar to breeding. So with gene editing, what
Speaker 4: you're doing is you're going into the DNA and you're
Speaker 4: able to knock out a function, so you're not changing
Speaker 4: the DNA, you're not putting any foreign DNA in you're
Speaker 4: knocking out a function in that DNA using a technology
Speaker 4: called crispur and in our case we use Crisper cast nine.
Speaker 4: So when Covercrest was founded, we're all x Mon Sandle
Speaker 4: people have a lot of experience not only in what
Speaker 4: it takes to bring a new technology to the market
Speaker 4: in the form of a plant material in our case
Speaker 4: right taking pennycrest, turning it into cover Crest, but also
Speaker 4: all the regulatory framework that it takes to get that forward.
Speaker 4: And we knew it'd be very difficult if we went
Speaker 4: the gene modification route, so we were focused on gene editing.
Speaker 4: So the two technologies we worked with to change the
Speaker 4: composition of Pennycrest to turn it into cover crest. First
Speaker 4: was traditional breeding, So we using traditional breeding methodologies right
Speaker 4: where we went out and we have. We started with
Speaker 4: over eight hundred different accessions or lines of pennycrest that
Speaker 4: we had accumulated throughout the United States and some from
Speaker 4: outside the United States, and just started planting those plants,
Speaker 4: identifying what those traits are, and then looking for those
Speaker 4: that perform well and then making crosses. Right just traditional
Speaker 4: breeding to start to improve really two aspects. How can
Speaker 4: we improve yield, and how can we improve the maturity
Speaker 4: of the plant. The second technology that we brought in
Speaker 4: was the gene editing technology, and in there we were
Speaker 4: looking to do really three key things. One, we wanted
Speaker 4: to change the composition of the seed that make it
Speaker 4: work better for animals, So we really needed to reduce
Speaker 4: the fiber content. So we have an edit where we
Speaker 4: lower the fiber content of pennycrest that turns our pennycrest seed,
Speaker 4: which is a dark black seed into a very light
Speaker 4: yellow golden color seed. That happens through a s thinning
Speaker 4: of the seed coat. We've improved the oil, We've eliminated
Speaker 4: in a healthy aspect in the old called urusic acid,
Speaker 4: we've eliminated that, which again was really important for animal
Speaker 4: feed purposes. And then Pennycrest is part of the Braska
Speaker 4: family of plants. And if you think of things that
Speaker 4: we eat as humans, mustard, broccoli, garlic, those are all
Speaker 4: brassicas they have a compound called glucascentilate that have this
Speaker 4: strong taste profile for animals. Having a high glucocentilate level
Speaker 4: makes it difficult sometimes for them to feed on it.
Speaker 4: They're not attracted to it, so we had to be
Speaker 4: able to lower the glucoscinilate level, which are specific lucascinolates
Speaker 4: called sinnegrin.
Speaker 2: So if I'm a farmer and I'm listening to this,
Speaker 2: I said, hey, yeah, I'd love to try that. What
Speaker 2: as a step that I need to do? I mean,
Speaker 2: is there any additional equipment or pre treatment I need
Speaker 2: to kind of implement into my cycle or how does
Speaker 2: it look from the farmer point of view?
Speaker 4: Let me answer that two ways.
Speaker 3: I think.
Speaker 4: One what's really important and one of the things that
Speaker 4: are a lot of the experience that those of us
Speaker 4: that came out of monsand brought to cover Crest was
Speaker 4: a realization that if we're going to introduce something as
Speaker 4: novel as cover crests right a new crop, even though
Speaker 4: we're offering a farmer a new opportunity which should get
Speaker 4: them excited, we had to take a different approach than
Speaker 4: a lot of what Big eggs done in the past,
Speaker 4: and that's pushing too.
Speaker 3: Much risk on the farmer.
Speaker 4: So really, first to get started with a farmer, a
Speaker 4: farmer's got to understand that they get a trial period
Speaker 4: on this. They get a chance to see how does
Speaker 4: this working with covercrest. How does this fit into their
Speaker 4: cropping rotation? That's the number one and that's kind of
Speaker 4: the contracting system that we have. But then if you're
Speaker 4: past that and the farmer says, okay, I like that, Mike,
Speaker 4: I'm happy to give this a shot. Now, how do
Speaker 4: I do it right? What are the agonomic practices to
Speaker 4: do that? The great news is that it's nothing different
Speaker 4: from what they do today. So a farmer, after let's
Speaker 4: say a corn harvest, will do a slight vertical tillage
Speaker 4: of their ground to break up the cornstover. Well, at
Speaker 4: that time they can seed covercrest. So they're able to
Speaker 4: just piggyback onto an activity that they're already doing. There's
Speaker 4: no new activity to actually get cover crest seeded. While
Speaker 4: covercrest grows over the fall. In the winter, there's nothing
Speaker 4: that a farmer needs to do. Crop starts to develop,
Speaker 4: relying on mother nature to bring a little bit of moisture,
Speaker 4: and then when we get to the early spring, we
Speaker 4: do ask the farmer to do a little bit of
Speaker 4: a fertilization. In the spring, we need about fifty pounds
Speaker 4: of nitrogen just to give the crop what it needs
Speaker 4: to be able to fully produce, and then when we
Speaker 4: get to harvest, the farmer uses his combine and then
Speaker 4: on the front end they use a traditional soybeing head.
Speaker 4: If you've ever seen a soybean harvest versus a corn harvest,
Speaker 4: it's a rolling head that cuts it like grass almost.
Speaker 4: It's that same technology that already exists.
Speaker 3: So no new.
Speaker 4: Equipment that a farmer needs.
Speaker 1: Well, so let's talk about why a farmer might want
Speaker 1: to embrace cover cress. What's the financial opportunity for them?
Speaker 1: I mean, is it a big one and are they
Speaker 1: super motivated to really seize this or is it sort
Speaker 1: of on the margins.
Speaker 4: It's hard to say. I would say it's definitely not
Speaker 4: on the margins. Right, we're introducing a third crop and
Speaker 4: what used to be a two crop rotation, right, so
Speaker 4: now they have a farmer has the opportunity to earn
Speaker 4: three cash crops in two seasons where they otherwise whatever
Speaker 4: and just too write. So plant corn get paid on
Speaker 4: your corn, plant cover crest, get paid on your cover crust.
Speaker 4: Plant soybeans get paid on your soybeans. That middle piece
Speaker 4: did not exist before cover crest, So that's really exciting
Speaker 4: for a farmer. What we've done for a farmers, we've said, hey,
Speaker 4: look we want to share the risk. So first off,
Speaker 4: we're not going to ask you to take the marketing risk.
Speaker 4: We're not selling you this seed and hoping that you
Speaker 4: have success planting it, growing at harvesting it and also
Speaker 4: selling it to a market. We know that's not going
Speaker 4: to work. Our customer, truly is the downstream user of
Speaker 4: the covercrest crane, right. The farmers are our partners, and
Speaker 4: so we contract with that farmer to grow a cover
Speaker 4: crest crop and then at harvest we pay the farmer.
Speaker 4: So the farmer that gets the farmer super excited, which
Speaker 4: again I think moves it away from it being a
Speaker 4: marginal opportunity. They know they don't have marketing risk. And
Speaker 4: then if you just think about the economics from a
Speaker 4: revenue opportunity, it's around two hundred dollars an acre of revenue.
Speaker 4: And we do talk about revenue at the top line
Speaker 4: because I think it's it's just too difficult. Every farmer
Speaker 4: is going to look at their operating spences a little
Speaker 4: bit differently. But if we look at it and we say, hey,
Speaker 4: it's a piggyback trip on plan, So there's some activity
Speaker 4: you're already doing, so that's generally cost neutral. Your first
Speaker 4: cost would be that application of fertilizer that I mentioned
Speaker 4: in the springtime, and what we're going to do with
Speaker 4: the farmer. What we do in our contract is we
Speaker 4: actually before that happens, we scout those fields to make
Speaker 4: sure that there's an adequate stand that we think this
Speaker 4: is going to be the type of crop we want
Speaker 4: to bring to harvest, and if it's not, then we're
Speaker 4: not going to have the farmer waste the money to
Speaker 4: fertilize it. What we'll do is we tell the farmer, hey,
Speaker 4: you know what, we're not going to take this to harvest.
Speaker 4: You go ahead terminate this when you field it's the
Speaker 4: right time in your system to terminate it, and we're
Speaker 4: going to pay you twenty dollars an acre. And so
Speaker 4: now the farmer is an essence, gotten a free cover
Speaker 4: crop right for participating with us. But if we do
Speaker 4: take that to harvest and they do incur that cost,
Speaker 4: you know, maybe that's twenty to thirty dollars an acre
Speaker 4: for that fertilizer application. That's something that the co op
Speaker 4: is doing for them. And then they have harvest and
Speaker 4: at harvest. They're getting out there. Like I said, they're
Speaker 4: combined and they're doing the harvest activity, which man's maybe
Speaker 4: forty fifty sixty dollars an acre. It just depends on
Speaker 4: the farmer. So if you just want to use a
Speaker 4: round number of one hundred dollars in operating costs against
Speaker 4: two hundred dollars of revenue, you know, it's one hundred
Speaker 4: dollars round number of gross profit opportunity potentially for the
Speaker 4: farmer before they even plant their first soybeans. So that's
Speaker 4: really what gets them pretty excited.
Speaker 2: How does a cover cress cost compare with other feedstock?
Speaker 3: I would look at it this way.
Speaker 4: And what's interesting about this, and I hesitate a little bit, Benji,
Speaker 4: is you know, as a guy that's focused on the
Speaker 4: upstream component of working with farmers to get this crap
Speaker 4: to market, I've been drinking from a fire hose on
Speaker 4: all the downstream aspects of these markets that we ultimately
Speaker 4: kind of feed into. Cover crests oil is a derivative
Speaker 4: of soybean oil. So that's how we would be priced.
Speaker 4: We start with grain, right, That's what we produce is
Speaker 4: a grain. That grain then gets crushed and two products
Speaker 4: are created, the meal and the oil. That's thirty percent
Speaker 4: oil content round number. And then the balance is the
Speaker 4: meal content, the protein content, and there's some things that
Speaker 4: are there's some volume that's lost obviously in that processing
Speaker 4: aspect a couple points, but just to keep it easy,
Speaker 4: thirty and seventy. And then that meal then component has
Speaker 4: a market to be fed to animals. So there's a
Speaker 4: premium to the oil value because there's more oil that's
Speaker 4: created from cover crests than say, from soybeans. But if
Speaker 4: you look at the meal component, our nutritional profiles at
Speaker 4: a discount to soybeans. We don't have a strong of
Speaker 4: a nutritional profile in terms of amino acids and other
Speaker 4: aspects that of soybeans were closer to canola, so we
Speaker 4: would trade it a bit of a discount to soybean meal.
Speaker 4: End of the day, you've got to put those two
Speaker 4: together to think of the total value proposition for cover crest.
Speaker 4: So a bit of a premium for on the oil side,
Speaker 4: but all the pricing and the costs, you know, the
Speaker 4: pricing and ultimately then when we can move back upstream
Speaker 4: to farmers based on what we can get paid through
Speaker 4: our relationships and whether that's with our current partners Bungy
Speaker 4: and Chevron or other partnerships will continue to develop.
Speaker 1: So, Mike, tell me about innovation. We know that in
Speaker 1: farming it is inherently iterative from one season to the next.
Speaker 1: But the problems associated with emissions and the real need
Speaker 1: for biofuels, and also just the need generally to think
Speaker 1: about crops going a growing planet. Is agriculture up to
Speaker 1: the challenge and what signs are you seeing that this
Speaker 1: is a real moment for agricultural innovation.
Speaker 4: I would say wholeheartedly agriculture is up to the challenge.
Speaker 4: There's a famous quote that goes, you know, if agriculture
Speaker 4: goes wrong, nothing else can go right. So I think
Speaker 4: that's the way I think of all this. And there's
Speaker 4: just so many aspects to what's happening in the market.
Speaker 4: In terms of innovation. There are a lot of activities,
Speaker 4: a lot of technologies coming to market where we're able
Speaker 4: to grow our crops more efficiently right use of better resources,
Speaker 4: whether that's the nitrogen that's used for the fertilizers that
Speaker 4: are used to grow our crops. There's technologies that are
Speaker 4: pinpointing on how to use fertilizer in a spot application
Speaker 4: right instead of broadly right, So more efficient use of fertilizers.
Speaker 4: There are new natural fertilizers of me in use, so
Speaker 4: we can reduce our alliance on synthetic fertilizers. There's a
Speaker 4: big market for biological right. How biologics can be used
Speaker 4: and applied so to help with activity that happens in
Speaker 4: the soil, creating stronger environment for the growth of microbes
Speaker 4: and other activities that help improve not only the health
Speaker 4: of the soil, but how efficient a plant can grow.
Speaker 4: You know, we have precision add tools around planting more efficiently.
Speaker 4: If there's irrigation that's being used on crop land, how
Speaker 4: can the use of that water be done more efficiently.
Speaker 4: There's a lot that's going on on the robotic side.
Speaker 4: Labor's a big issue in farming, and so how can
Speaker 4: we introduce robotics and autonomous vehicles to help farmers continue
Speaker 4: to be more efficient on all the land that they're farming.
Speaker 4: There's drones, So how can drones be used for not
Speaker 4: only a lot of the things that used to be
Speaker 4: done by tractors in terms of applying inputs, whether that's
Speaker 4: seed or chemistries, but also what can be done in
Speaker 4: terms of doing imaging right, there are companies out there
Speaker 4: using drones to image a field to the point where
Speaker 4: you could say, hey, there's that specific spot in the
Speaker 4: field that looks like it has some kind of fungus
Speaker 4: pressure and the drone can apply a little bit of
Speaker 4: fungicide right on the spot. So, you know, I think
Speaker 4: there's just this burgeoning ad tech industry and innovation that's
Speaker 4: coming that are bringing you know, new tools to farmers
Speaker 4: to help them be more efficient user land more wisely
Speaker 4: and then really ultimately would in a lot of ways
Speaker 4: help to cut down on some of the emissions that
Speaker 4: are coming off of the farm as well.
Speaker 1: So everything from gene editing to robots and drone technology
Speaker 1: innovation is certainly happening in agriculture. Mike, thank you so
Speaker 1: much for joining us today.
Speaker 4: Oh it's been great. I appreciate spending time with you,
Speaker 4: Dana and you Benji and look forward to further conversations.
Speaker 1: And next we hear from Dimple Patel, CEO of Nature Metrics,
Speaker 1: who have embraced e DNA to help measure biodiversity at
Speaker 1: scale and give governments and businesses the information they need
Speaker 1: to make better decisions when comes to nature dimple. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much for joining us today to talk about
Speaker 1: your business and the pioneering things that you're doing there.
Speaker 5: Thank you, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: All Right, well, so let's start at the beginning, and
Speaker 1: what we like to do is frame the problem. So
Speaker 1: one of the things that you know we globally are
Speaker 1: dealing with is biodiversity collapse, and oftentimes, when compared with
Speaker 1: the climate crisis, people talk about it as something that
Speaker 1: is going to impact human life much more quickly and
Speaker 1: something we may want to be focused on more urgently,
Speaker 1: and that there's also a very wide funding gap. Can
Speaker 1: you talk to us a bit about what you see
Speaker 1: as the problem and then we can get into how
Speaker 1: nature Metrics is looking to address it.
Speaker 5: What I found most startling when I'd started looking into
Speaker 5: biodiversity with actually the data point that over the last
Speaker 5: fifty years wildline populations have declined by seventy percent. If
Speaker 5: we do that again, so if we continue with this
Speaker 5: trend or biodiversity decline in another fifty years, we will
Speaker 5: look wiped down ninety three percent of wildlife population. I mean,
Speaker 5: that is incredible, And there's fad aboute hundred years, and
Speaker 5: I think when you look at economic growth and progress
Speaker 5: and everything that we have achieved since the Industrial Revolution,
Speaker 5: it has come at such a significant cost. And that's
Speaker 5: seven hundred billion dollar funding gap that is just to
Speaker 5: halt and reverse biodiversity loss. But I think we often
Speaker 5: overlook is a lot of that damage is irrevertible. When
Speaker 5: you wipe out a species two extinction that has a
Speaker 5: very important part in the food system, you cannot bring
Speaker 5: that species back. And actually the knock on impact we
Speaker 5: don't necessarily fully understand, but the knock on impacts are
Speaker 5: going to have implications for our food systems. It's obviously
Speaker 5: going to impact they battle against climate change, but actually
Speaker 5: it's going to play out ways that we haven't fully quantified.
Speaker 5: And actually that is not just a threat to long
Speaker 5: term economic growth in business performance, but it is a
Speaker 5: threat to our survival.
Speaker 1: So before we get to how nature metrics fits into
Speaker 1: a range of potential solutions for this, can you talk
Speaker 1: about why you were drawn to it, Because we know
Speaker 1: that this problem exists, but this was a professional pivot
Speaker 1: for you, and so why did this end up being
Speaker 1: you know what you are now dedicating your life to.
Speaker 5: So I am an economist by background. I did an
Speaker 5: economic both my undergrad and postgrad, but with a specific
Speaker 5: focus on development economics. In my family where farmers and
Speaker 5: rural Indian and so for me there was always an
Speaker 5: interest in how do we take society and the economy forward?
Speaker 5: But I had seen play out the real positive there
Speaker 5: in terms of the implication on the environment, and no
Speaker 5: I started my career goverment on the training floor, but
Speaker 5: very quickly then moved into the entrepreneurial space. So I
Speaker 5: founded my first business fifteen years ago that was a
Speaker 5: hospitality so physical operation, and since then I've worked cross tech,
Speaker 5: data software, really understood the very tools that our disposal,
Speaker 5: but what never really went away was how do we
Speaker 5: use business to good when we think about with the
Speaker 5: challenges that we are facing globally, how do we leverage
Speaker 5: all of these tools at our disposal and how do
Speaker 5: we align indentives in a way that we can actually
Speaker 5: use this data that we have now had data on
Speaker 5: everything to drive the decisions that we are making, you know,
Speaker 5: the multinational level globally, to give it better long term out.
Speaker 5: And so I've always circled back to where I've first
Speaker 5: started my study, but now much better equipped to actually
Speaker 5: bring some of that teeth.
Speaker 2: Great, Yeah, what is EDNA, Maybe for our listener, if
Speaker 2: you can explain a bit more about.
Speaker 5: So Indiana or the environmental DNA that refers to the
Speaker 5: genetic cases that living organisms leave behind in the environment,
Speaker 5: so that is soil, sediment, water, and even air. But
Speaker 5: when we analyze these samples, what we're able to do
Speaker 5: is actually identify the genetic level individual species that are
Speaker 5: present in an environment. So it's infectively like a stock
Speaker 5: pa for nature. And what we've found with the DNA
Speaker 5: is so somewhat are super easy to collect. You can
Speaker 5: use your cost any habitat, but it's more cost effective, quicker,
Speaker 5: and more accurate than alternative methods. So we're able to
Speaker 5: detect seventy percent more species than traditional methods. And what
Speaker 5: this means is you're starting with an incredibly rich data
Speaker 5: set that has a high level of accuracy, It has
Speaker 5: a full complexity and biodiversity in nature. But when these
Speaker 5: are your base data sets, you're then able to start
Speaker 5: to build competente metrics. You're able to make better decisions
Speaker 5: in terms of how you should be operating, how you
Speaker 5: should be treating your soil, why you should be opening
Speaker 5: the entrances to a mining site. And it just means
Speaker 5: that when we think about data generation a scale, DNA
Speaker 5: is easily deplorable. We've used it in over one hundred
Speaker 5: and ten countries, but it gives you a really really
Speaker 5: strong foundation upon which to then manipulate that data and
Speaker 5: then take the action into decisions that you need a
Speaker 5: beck fit.
Speaker 2: So I could see how NGOs will will use it
Speaker 2: and so on, but how how would company use it?
Speaker 2: I know you have some companies as clients. How would
Speaker 2: they using the data and information?
Speaker 5: Yeah, so real mixed. So we have some companies that
Speaker 5: might be operating in areas of particular content in relation
Speaker 5: to specific species. So you can use DNA to identify
Speaker 5: threatened or endangered species. You can actually also use it
Speaker 5: to detect invasive species, which obviously has a significant impact
Speaker 5: both in the agricultural space but also increasingly in courts
Speaker 5: and walkways. We have extractive clients who will use environmental
Speaker 5: DNA as part of their environmental impact assessment. So there
Speaker 5: it forms a much bigger part of kind of regulatory
Speaker 5: reporting as well as larger pieces that are coming in
Speaker 5: such as TNFD and CSID. And then Finally, if you
Speaker 5: are working with land, the quality of your soil is
Speaker 5: absolutely acceptable. So what we're now increasingly seeing is much
Speaker 5: more interested in or help from a bacterial perspective, understanding
Speaker 5: how they speak to copy on and then also just
Speaker 5: building more resilience into our supply chains as well.
Speaker 2: Do you have any examples of in organization taking these
Speaker 2: data and then creating a positive impact on biodiversity.
Speaker 5: So if I take the agricultural space for example, what
Speaker 5: we have done, particularly if the last kind of clot
Speaker 5: to eighteen months, is we've been working with client to
Speaker 5: have multiple farms as part of their supply chain, and
Speaker 5: they're trying to understand the impact of different fertilizers and
Speaker 5: treatments on the soil across these farms, not just to
Speaker 5: kind of inform their own operation, but to work with
Speaker 5: these small landowners and feed these insights to them in
Speaker 5: terms of how they can then put the quality of
Speaker 5: the soil going forward. And what's been really fantastic about
Speaker 5: the technology, but also through the platform here, we're able
Speaker 5: to demonstrate that change over time, We're able to link
Speaker 5: that changes in bacterial composition to different types of fertilizers
Speaker 5: and treat so again there's a link from you know,
Speaker 5: the end us right the way through to the platform
Speaker 5: and being able to open up that data to admitted
Speaker 5: stakeholders as need to have access to it.
Speaker 2: Do you feel that some of the latest regulation here
Speaker 2: in Europe, you know, the Corporate Sustainability Reporting Directive and
Speaker 2: some of the momentum around TNFD is increasing momentum on
Speaker 2: action in this area.
Speaker 5: So what we have seen is the first step of
Speaker 5: the back of the TNFD launch in particular last September
Speaker 5: was just a huge beast in terms of awareness around nature.
Speaker 5: So our organization to have previously talked about sustainability as
Speaker 5: a carbon dotport, waste and water now looking at native
Speaker 5: for the first time and thinking, I actually don't know
Speaker 5: what I'm fifty doing here, they even know how I
Speaker 5: can measure it, but I know that somebody is going
Speaker 5: to hold me to account at some point in the future,
Speaker 5: so I need to start getting on top of this.
Speaker 5: And so that was really fantastic because it has really
Speaker 5: pushed nature up the order prioritization in terms of out
Speaker 5: sustainability agenda. I think what is really interesting about CSI
Speaker 5: in particular is that is the first piece of nature
Speaker 5: related and the legislation that it's going to have penalties
Speaker 5: attached to it. So this is not an optional framework
Speaker 5: for reporting. It is compulsory and there are actually some
Speaker 5: parts of Europe I think that are actually going to
Speaker 5: be holding directors of companies liable for not meeting the
Speaker 5: requirements of CSUDY reporting. So in becoming what more heavy handed,
Speaker 5: I think given the time frame that we are looking
Speaker 5: at in terms of biodiversity decline, it does require slightly
Speaker 5: more heavy handed approach to make sure that action is
Speaker 5: accelerated as much as possible. But then outside of that,
Speaker 5: I think both CSUDY, but particularly the team at TNF
Speaker 5: Theater doing a fantastic job in terms of actually breaking
Speaker 5: down what they mean around you know, terms such as
Speaker 5: nature positive into smaller steps. They make them a bit
Speaker 5: more didicial for companies that haven't looked at this perform.
Speaker 5: They're providing toolkit, lots and lots of educational material, webinars,
Speaker 5: et cetera. I think, you know, there is a huge
Speaker 5: educational component to where nature and biodiversity sit within an
Speaker 5: organization's strategy and sustainability policies. Even though actually band identity
Speaker 5: is one of the first things that we learn as children,
Speaker 5: so I think it does have a big role to play.
Speaker 5: A lot of it will come down to the implementation.
Speaker 5: So when we talk about makes day to day is
Speaker 5: used for reporting the accuracy and the quality of the
Speaker 5: data that is being reported, because I think what is
Speaker 5: always a concern with regulation is that they can become
Speaker 5: quite watered down and actually the quality of the data
Speaker 5: being comfortable of a tip box out side. But I'm
Speaker 5: confident that there are enough people that they really want
Speaker 5: to see this have an impact that we will kind
Speaker 5: of post date quality up. There is a quality.
Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit more about the upskilling
Speaker 1: aspect of it, because you know, what I'm thinking is
Speaker 1: that you change happens slowly and then very fast. And
Speaker 1: I think about the initial responsible investors that were literally
Speaker 1: decades ago looking at their irresponsible investing strategy, and then
Speaker 1: there was this just huge amount of attention on sustainable
Speaker 1: finance in ESG reporting. To your point, we are interned
Speaker 1: reduced to biodiversity and I certainly remember talking about species
Speaker 1: extinction when I was a child and endangered species and
Speaker 1: now very much we're getting up to speed on it
Speaker 1: quite quickly, and it's necessary for companies to think about
Speaker 1: it from a metrics standpoint, how long do you think
Speaker 1: this upskilling process will take and what is happening in
Speaker 1: practice and how is that happening.
Speaker 5: So I think if we go back to what we
Speaker 5: were saying earlier about alignment of incentives and how we
Speaker 5: dry decision making an action, you know, anybody running a
Speaker 5: company is optimizing for both of their share price growth
Speaker 5: of their companies, and so what you end up with
Speaker 5: there is an inevitable link between behavior and incentives and
Speaker 5: capital and listen where we are start to change. So
Speaker 5: when you talk about with probable investment, a number of
Speaker 5: investor are now starting biodiversity as an indication of some
Speaker 5: of their EESG markets that they look at when they're
Speaker 5: assessing an investment BMP, who are on our board having
Speaker 5: chief a biodavert policy where they're going to be assessing
Speaker 5: their portfolio against the biodiversity credentials in twenty twenty five
Speaker 5: as well. I think one of the challenges historically has
Speaker 5: been the fact that biodiversity has been difficult to measure scales,
Speaker 5: so the data itself has been Luckily that is not
Speaker 5: the case anymore, so our focus really is on getting
Speaker 5: that data into the right how do we use it
Speaker 5: to influence policy, How do we use it to influence
Speaker 5: where capital is flowing, where we are providing investment, which
Speaker 5: projects are being given the opportunity to get off the ground.
Speaker 5: And so I think working with financial institutions and government
Speaker 5: is a really really important part of making sure that
Speaker 5: we have the incentives in place to make sure that
Speaker 5: biodiversity is not overlooked. So it's coming together. I think
Speaker 5: we are still very much at that danger explaining that
Speaker 5: the data exists, and the good quality data exists, so
Speaker 5: you don't need to use a proxy for what is
Speaker 5: happening on the ground. We can genuinely measure what is
Speaker 5: happening on the ground, because whenever you are deploying and
Speaker 5: anti capitals, you do want to have autiful and very
Speaker 5: viable data that sits behind them, which is something that
Speaker 5: we can do with DNA. So then there is a
Speaker 5: big push. I think we have somewhere to go, which
Speaker 5: is why I think regulation from an awareness perspective is
Speaker 5: going to be very very important. But then a lot
Speaker 5: of it is going to be actually helpful organizations taking
Speaker 5: their initial samples, getting these kits out into the field,
Speaker 5: starting to generate their own data so that they can
Speaker 5: see how that data is then needed to cost their
Speaker 5: organizations in that decision making as well. But I do
Speaker 5: think financed intitutions and investors are going to have an
Speaker 5: important part play in terms of accelerating that option as
Speaker 5: well well.
Speaker 1: I think that's a perfect place to stop, because we
Speaker 1: want to stop on an optimistic note and on a high.
Speaker 1: So thank you very much for coming on the show
Speaker 1: and talking about nature metric solution and how important it
Speaker 1: is for us to be rigorously approaching biodiversity from a
Speaker 1: data standpoint so that we can make progress in this space,
Speaker 1: and for sharing your optimism.
Speaker 5: Thank you.
Speaker 1: Today's episode of Switched On was produced by Cam Gray
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