WEBVTT - BNEF Pioneers Award: Net-Zero Fuels and Nature Data 0:00:00.520 --> 0:00:03.680 This is Dana Perkins and you're listening to Switched on 0:00:04.000 --> 0:00:06.840 the b and EF podcast, and today we're bringing you 0:00:06.960 --> 0:00:10.760 a special show focused on the b and EF Pioneers Program. 0:00:10.840 --> 0:00:15.160 Each year, BNAF Pioneers awards outstanding early stage companies in 0:00:15.240 --> 0:00:18.400 climate tech that could make a real difference in decarbonization 0:00:18.600 --> 0:00:22.320 or biodiversity. We'll start today's show by speaking with Benjamin Caffrey, 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:25.360 co chair of the Pioneers Program. Benji, thanks so much 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:26.320 for joining us today. 0:00:26.560 --> 0:00:29.200 Thanks for inviting me again. It's great to be here. 0:00:29.600 --> 0:00:32.880 So before we talk about BNF Pioneers and the challenges 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:35.199 and the interviews that we're going to get into with 0:00:35.200 --> 0:00:38.280 a few of this year's winners, why don't you explain 0:00:38.400 --> 0:00:41.720 to everyone listening what BNAF Pioneers is. 0:00:42.800 --> 0:00:42.919 So. 0:00:43.080 --> 0:00:47.920 BNF Pioneers Program, it's basically our way to reward exciting 0:00:48.120 --> 0:00:51.280 climate tech innovation. We have been running it for fifteen years, 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:54.880 so it's our fifteen years anniversary and it's basically innovators 0:00:54.920 --> 0:00:58.520 competition and every year we'll try and pick three unsolved 0:00:58.520 --> 0:01:01.120 climate innovation gaps to focus on, and we'll have a 0:01:01.160 --> 0:01:04.640 force category that we call the Wildcards. So any other 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:09.360 innovative climate technology, and we look at how innovative and 0:01:09.400 --> 0:01:14.240 original these ventures are, and we'll also look into basically 0:01:14.319 --> 0:01:17.039 the momentum they have and how successful they could be, 0:01:17.280 --> 0:01:20.319 and very importantly the impact that they have are there 0:01:20.640 --> 0:01:23.520 on climate, on biodiversity. So kind of these are the 0:01:23.520 --> 0:01:27.400 three criterias, and we'll go through the process and celebrate 0:01:27.440 --> 0:01:28.320 the winners at the end. 0:01:28.600 --> 0:01:31.000 So we've been doing Pioneers for as long as I've 0:01:31.000 --> 0:01:34.720 been at BNF, so we've reached a milestone anniversary this year, 0:01:34.800 --> 0:01:38.280 so fifteen years of doing Pioneers. But in addition to that, 0:01:38.480 --> 0:01:40.280 you know, what are some of the ways that you 0:01:40.360 --> 0:01:44.440 measure the successes maybe not necessarily of pioneers, but of 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:47.440 the companies themselves, And what are some of the you know, facts, 0:01:47.480 --> 0:01:49.120 We love a good figure on the show, So what's 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:51.760 a fact and figure that might illustrate that for us? 0:01:52.080 --> 0:01:55.760 So in fifteen years, we have one hundred and fifty 0:01:55.800 --> 0:01:59.760 two winners, alumni winners, and they have been quite successful. 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:03.840 They have raised cumulatively more than twenty billion dollars of 0:02:03.960 --> 0:02:06.720 the years, one point three billion actually in the last year, 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:09.880 which wasn't an easy one for venture raising. And they 0:02:09.880 --> 0:02:13.680 have had a lot of success story. Around forty percent 0:02:13.800 --> 0:02:16.560 of the Pioneers at an exit, so either through an 0:02:16.680 --> 0:02:19.680 M and A or going to the public market, and 0:02:19.880 --> 0:02:22.920 a similar amount of them and another thirty to forty 0:02:22.960 --> 0:02:26.080 percent are still going and raise money in the last 0:02:26.080 --> 0:02:28.480 few years, so really good success rate. 0:02:28.800 --> 0:02:30.840 And today we're going to feature a wild card because 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:33.160 there's always something that we just can't leave on the table, 0:02:33.200 --> 0:02:35.359 So we will feature a wildcard today in true being 0:02:35.360 --> 0:02:38.880 a fashion. But what is the formal challenge that we're 0:02:38.880 --> 0:02:41.200 also going to feature a couple of winners from on 0:02:41.240 --> 0:02:41.840 today's show. 0:02:42.240 --> 0:02:46.000 So one of the challenges for this year was creating 0:02:46.040 --> 0:02:49.560 the next generation of zero fuels, and we'll focus on 0:02:49.600 --> 0:02:52.200 the winners from that challenge, and as you said, our 0:02:52.240 --> 0:02:55.040 biodiversity winner from the wildcard category. 0:02:55.240 --> 0:02:58.840 So there are no shortage of climate tech areas that 0:02:58.960 --> 0:03:01.720 need innovation of the mom and we're looking ahead to 0:03:01.800 --> 0:03:05.200 our next set of Pioneers challenges, So can you tell 0:03:05.280 --> 0:03:07.200 us what those three are? And of course there'll be 0:03:07.200 --> 0:03:09.760 a wildcard, But what are the three challenges that we 0:03:09.800 --> 0:03:12.680 are actively receiving applications for right now? 0:03:12.919 --> 0:03:17.440 So next year challenges are both super important and super interesting. 0:03:17.800 --> 0:03:21.680 The first one is that around making light industry more sustainable, 0:03:21.840 --> 0:03:25.799 so looking anything from textile to semiconductor industry and how 0:03:25.800 --> 0:03:30.280 they can decarbonize. The second one is all innovation around storage, 0:03:30.360 --> 0:03:33.919 and the third one is innovation around climate adaptation. 0:03:34.400 --> 0:03:37.160 So if you or someone you know would fit as 0:03:37.200 --> 0:03:40.120 an innovator in one of these categories, you can apply 0:03:40.360 --> 0:03:44.000 and learn more about pioneers by going to about dot 0:03:44.120 --> 0:03:48.920 BNF dot com forward slash BNF Pioneers, and you'll also 0:03:48.960 --> 0:03:52.280 be able to see previous challenges and learn about some 0:03:52.360 --> 0:03:55.160 of the winners from previous years, including some of the 0:03:55.200 --> 0:03:57.680 people we're going to feature on today's show, which then 0:03:57.800 --> 0:04:00.200 brings us to those we're going to hear from today. 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:02.920 So we will be speaking with Nicholas Ball, who's the 0:04:02.960 --> 0:04:06.800 CEO of x Fuel, Mike DeCamp, president and CEO of Covercress, 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:10.520 and Dimple Patel, CEO of Nature Metrics. So let's get 0:04:10.560 --> 0:04:13.520 into our first conversation, which is with Nicholas Ball, the 0:04:13.560 --> 0:04:16.240 CEO of x Fuel. Now x fuel have pioneered a 0:04:16.279 --> 0:04:20.559 technology that converts biomass waste into a low carbon drop 0:04:20.600 --> 0:04:23.280 in fuel. Let's talk to Nicholas about how they've gone 0:04:23.320 --> 0:04:33.240 about that. I am joined today with our guest from 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:37.240 x Fuel, Nicholas hi th So we're here to talk 0:04:37.279 --> 0:04:40.320 about x fuel, but before we get into the solutions 0:04:40.360 --> 0:04:42.960 from the company that you know, you are here to 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:46.880 tell us more about let's talk about transportation broadly and 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:50.200 really what attracted you to it, but really the scale 0:04:50.200 --> 0:04:53.200 of the problem with decarbonizing transport, which is certainly something 0:04:53.320 --> 0:04:56.280 BNF is watching closely. But you know from your perspective, 0:04:56.600 --> 0:04:59.599 why is transport such an important sector for us to 0:04:59.680 --> 0:05:00.400 before focused on. 0:05:00.800 --> 0:05:03.320 Yeah. Absolutely, I think it's one of the most let's 0:05:03.320 --> 0:05:06.880 say important sectors because it's one of those blind spots 0:05:06.920 --> 0:05:08.880 that people are not quite thinking about as much as 0:05:08.880 --> 0:05:11.720 they probably should. So, you know, transportation emits. I think 0:05:11.760 --> 0:05:14.000 it's over eight giga tons of certwo COO per year. 0:05:14.040 --> 0:05:17.200 It's about fifteen percent of global emissions and growing. But 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:19.640 I think what people don't realize, and this came out 0:05:19.680 --> 0:05:22.520 of the idea that the oil consumption for shipping and 0:05:22.520 --> 0:05:25.919 aviation specifically, and you probably are aware that's the hardest to abate. 0:05:26.000 --> 0:05:29.200 Let's say, sectors within transportation is actually protected to increase 0:05:29.600 --> 0:05:32.320 over sixty percent by twenty fifty with the current policies 0:05:32.360 --> 0:05:34.800 in place. So this is a huge problem. And really 0:05:34.880 --> 0:05:37.200 it comes down to the fact that there aren't solutions 0:05:37.240 --> 0:05:40.479 that are either viable, so you know, not electrication or 0:05:40.480 --> 0:05:43.200 things like that, or they're simply not dropped in and 0:05:43.279 --> 0:05:45.479 of course they're too expensive typically what we'd find with 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:48.880 liquid fuels. But yeah, that's the main issue in transportation. 0:05:49.080 --> 0:05:52.200 Well, so that industry issue is there. But why you 0:05:52.400 --> 0:05:54.080 what drew you to this space? 0:05:54.440 --> 0:05:56.960 Yeah, so I have a mixed background in general. My 0:05:57.000 --> 0:05:59.640 background is a blend of kind of academia, industry, and 0:06:00.279 --> 0:06:03.240 a general personal commitment to sustainability. I have kind of 0:06:03.240 --> 0:06:06.239 a strong foundation in science and engineering, you know, PhD 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:09.080 from Peer College, so it's a very different area and 0:06:09.120 --> 0:06:11.480 the more technical side. From a personal level, you know, 0:06:11.520 --> 0:06:14.040 I grew up in the Mediterranean, I live in the Mediterranean. 0:06:14.279 --> 0:06:17.160 I have a love for nature, for the environment, and 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:21.080 I never really had a clear way of joining those 0:06:21.120 --> 0:06:24.880 two parts of my life until I actually met my 0:06:25.160 --> 0:06:28.599 CTO and our CEO. Originally, I actually was a founder 0:06:28.600 --> 0:06:31.039 in the company, an investor founder, i should say, so, 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:32.839 I was an investor in that respect, and I just 0:06:32.880 --> 0:06:34.880 saw the developments of the technology go on and on 0:06:34.920 --> 0:06:36.839 and realized that I could really make a difference and 0:06:36.880 --> 0:06:38.599 be part of the team and support them and the 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:41.599 development of the technology and the commercialization of it specifically. 0:06:41.760 --> 0:06:44.480 So it was actually out of I would say luck 0:06:44.560 --> 0:06:46.640 that I got to transition into a sector that I 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:49.480 love and I'm passionate about, but never really had a 0:06:49.640 --> 0:06:52.120 firm footing it, And so like a lot of us, 0:06:52.240 --> 0:06:54.440 I actually started learning about it more and more during 0:06:54.480 --> 0:06:56.560 that phase, during the investment phase and being part of 0:06:56.600 --> 0:06:58.679 the board and then moving onto the management team about 0:06:58.680 --> 0:07:01.839 four years ago, and combine my technical business acumen as 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:04.400 well as a sustainability and love for that. I met 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:09.720 my co founder's CEO, who was very passionate around technologies 0:07:10.120 --> 0:07:13.160 that can disrupt the status quob So the technology has 0:07:13.160 --> 0:07:15.080 been developed over a number of years in our company, 0:07:15.080 --> 0:07:18.560 but his essentially frustration came out of the core belief 0:07:18.720 --> 0:07:22.320 that low carbon fuels will have to be drop in 0:07:22.520 --> 0:07:26.280 and economically competitive with fossil fuels to really achieve any 0:07:26.480 --> 0:07:30.360 significant market share and actually have an impact. And I 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:32.200 brought into that and I still do right, I think 0:07:32.240 --> 0:07:34.080 that still is the case, and of course now we 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:37.080 have policies and changing, but my I think love for 0:07:37.200 --> 0:07:39.280 the fact that we can disrupt this market and it's 0:07:39.320 --> 0:07:41.240 so right for disruption because there are just so few 0:07:41.360 --> 0:07:45.240 options and solutions brought me into the sustainability side and 0:07:45.600 --> 0:07:47.640 actually developing this company. 0:07:47.440 --> 0:07:51.560 So tell us more about kind of your solution and technologies. 0:07:51.920 --> 0:07:54.000 Well, we've you know, we spent a number of years 0:07:54.000 --> 0:07:56.840 of developing a kind of wide range of different technologies 0:07:56.960 --> 0:08:00.040 for the industry. We've developed one which focuses more on 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:03.960 on ligno cellistic biomass. I should probably mention that all 0:08:04.000 --> 0:08:06.600 our products are aiming to be drop in solutions, and 0:08:06.640 --> 0:08:09.000 maybe I should unpack what that really means. Drop in 0:08:09.040 --> 0:08:12.000 solutions mean that we produce a fuel that meets the 0:08:12.080 --> 0:08:16.000 current fossil fuel specifications and can be inter changed with 0:08:16.240 --> 0:08:19.960 current fuels without requiring any infrastructure or deployment. And so 0:08:20.000 --> 0:08:22.200 that's a really important point for us because we think 0:08:22.320 --> 0:08:24.320 when we speak to customers, you know, if they have 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:27.640 to deploy other kind of infrastructure or capex, that that's 0:08:27.680 --> 0:08:30.760 a big barrier to entry. But we've essentially developed technologies 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:32.800 in this space working with different waste materials, and we 0:08:32.840 --> 0:08:35.000 focus solely on waste to be able to bring down 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:37.199 the cost of them and develop them a wide ramage 0:08:37.320 --> 0:08:39.160 of different technologies to achieve that. 0:08:39.480 --> 0:08:42.760 We'd love to hear more how your technology is different 0:08:42.880 --> 0:08:45.120 than what I've been tried so far? 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:48.000 Yeah, and also what you have tried so far. I mean, 0:08:48.000 --> 0:08:50.040 how many things did you have to get wrong in 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:50.920 order to get it right? 0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:53.120 Yeah, well, we were still trying to get things right. 0:08:53.240 --> 0:08:55.160 I should say that I think we all are right. 0:08:55.240 --> 0:08:58.000 So there's no bullet proof solutions here. But we've developed 0:08:58.000 --> 0:09:01.560 two different technologies and we have to plants deployed on 0:09:01.559 --> 0:09:04.520 this already. But one technology really focuses on waste from 0:09:04.520 --> 0:09:07.000 the let's say agriculture industry and forestry, and she basically 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:10.600 ligmicellarsy biomass, and the intention here is to bring essentially 0:09:10.600 --> 0:09:13.120 a drop in fuel from ligma cellar sig materials and 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:16.120 waste oils and produce a fuel for the shipping industry. 0:09:16.200 --> 0:09:18.200 But at the same time, I think what's beautiful about 0:09:18.240 --> 0:09:20.720 this particular technology is that we also produce biochart and 0:09:20.720 --> 0:09:23.360 it has a lot of additional benefits from greenss, gas 0:09:23.400 --> 0:09:26.160 savings and such. The other technology we developed is more 0:09:26.200 --> 0:09:28.200 of a kind of second step to this, which is 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:31.160 what we call clear or chemical liquid refining CLR. And 0:09:31.200 --> 0:09:34.240 this is more of a refining, cracking, and essentially deeply 0:09:34.280 --> 0:09:37.160 sufturization technology. And don't want to go to technical unless 0:09:37.160 --> 0:09:39.680 some of your listeners are technical, but essentially we can 0:09:39.720 --> 0:09:43.000 take you know, contaminated and low quality hydrocarbon liquids and 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:46.400 tenement to very high spec marine road in aviation fuels. 0:09:46.480 --> 0:09:49.080 And we've been using this more and more with different applications, 0:09:49.080 --> 0:09:51.360 and not just a bolt onto our mech technology, but 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:55.520 as a standalone technology which can create some pretty impressive 0:09:55.559 --> 0:09:58.520 fuels from both the technology perspective but also from an 0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:01.080 economic perspective stainability perspectively. 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:03.600 I mean, I'm sure plenty of our listeners are very technical, 0:10:03.600 --> 0:10:05.800 but I'm going to zoom way out because one of 0:10:05.880 --> 0:10:07.840 the things we really try and do on this show 0:10:07.960 --> 0:10:10.760 are explainers, and biochar is one of them. So we 0:10:10.880 --> 0:10:14.199 actually had a biochar producer as a previous Pioneers winner. 0:10:14.280 --> 0:10:17.000 But for those who are not familiar with biochar, would 0:10:17.000 --> 0:10:17.880 you explain what that is? 0:10:18.120 --> 0:10:22.720 Biochart essentially the paralysis nature of any biomass or igno 0:10:22.760 --> 0:10:26.520 cellosic biomass and turning it into a form which would 0:10:26.559 --> 0:10:29.840 permanently store the carbon within it. So in using that 0:10:29.840 --> 0:10:31.920 in different materials or in the forresterry industry, or if 0:10:31.920 --> 0:10:34.600 you're essentially bearing it in a low oxygen ambient, you 0:10:34.679 --> 0:10:37.480 can assure that the carbon that is within that would 0:10:37.520 --> 0:10:40.199 be locked away, so it can be used in other materials. 0:10:40.200 --> 0:10:42.680 And there are forms within or let's say, materials within 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:44.920 biochart which can be used in other industries, and that 0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:48.440 can include graphine and other things. But in this particular case, 0:10:48.600 --> 0:10:50.680 what we're using it for is for the carbon sequestration 0:10:50.800 --> 0:10:54.160 benefits of the process. And excitingly enough, where I think 0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:56.400 the one of the only technologies that can produce for 0:10:56.960 --> 0:11:00.000 talking about mechia can produce both a drop in transportation 0:11:00.280 --> 0:11:02.680 fuel and biotart at the same time, which allows us 0:11:02.760 --> 0:11:06.520 to allocate these savings to our fuels themselves and achieve 0:11:06.600 --> 0:11:09.800 some carbon negative fuels some pretty exciting steps in the future. 0:11:10.000 --> 0:11:13.840 You mentioned feedstock just before. I mean, how important is 0:11:13.960 --> 0:11:17.600 to secure enough feedstock? Is that an issue at all? 0:11:17.640 --> 0:11:20.520 And kind of diversity of feedstock that you could use 0:11:20.880 --> 0:11:21.320 it is. 0:11:21.240 --> 0:11:25.640 A huge problem for a wider impact perspective, So you 0:11:25.880 --> 0:11:29.040 keep in mind right currently the low carbon fuels make 0:11:29.120 --> 0:11:32.599 up two percent of all essentially liquid fuels in the 0:11:32.640 --> 0:11:35.600 market today, and of that all of them are practically biofuels. 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:38.880 I think it's ninety five or ninety eight percent is biofuels. 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:41.560 The reason why we haven't scaled is obviously economics, but 0:11:41.640 --> 0:11:44.560 also the scalabilities. You say, so securing these feedstocks is 0:11:44.600 --> 0:11:47.320 critical from that perspective, but from a company that is 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:51.120 growing and market opportunity, there are plenty of opportunities, especially 0:11:51.120 --> 0:11:54.480 working with ligno cellusic waste and biomass waste in general, 0:11:54.559 --> 0:11:57.160 there's a lot of that material around. Our other technology 0:11:57.200 --> 0:11:59.240 does focus on other feedstocks, which kind of gives us 0:11:59.240 --> 0:12:02.160 a bit more let's say, flexibility in terms of what 0:12:02.200 --> 0:12:03.320 we can use now as. 0:12:03.240 --> 0:12:06.800 A drop in fuel, you've removed the need to actually 0:12:06.840 --> 0:12:11.080 spend money by the purchaser and your client in retrofitting 0:12:11.200 --> 0:12:13.560 or buying different ships and equipment on their end. But 0:12:13.640 --> 0:12:16.680 are they getting the same energy density from the fuel 0:12:16.720 --> 0:12:19.120 that you're providing, And really what I'm asking is so 0:12:19.200 --> 0:12:22.480 they have to refuel more often or less often or. 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:25.480 The same No, That's it's a fantastic question, and it's 0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:28.680 something that we see with other alternative fuels, where you 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:31.320 would typically have half densities or something like that. In 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:34.640 our case, we meet the sophistications for the fuels themselves, 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:36.960 which actually have the same energy densities as the current 0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:38.920 fossil fuels. So this is what we aim for and 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:42.280 would essentially have the same fueling needs in using our products, 0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:44.560 and we think that's really important. And also being able 0:12:44.600 --> 0:12:46.840 to use it and handle it. A lot of the 0:12:46.880 --> 0:12:50.000 operational site, a lot of the bunkering side is a 0:12:50.040 --> 0:12:52.600 lot simpler when you're using a product that they already 0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:54.920 familiar with. So that's something that we are proud of 0:12:55.160 --> 0:12:57.520 and something that we think is it critical, especially for 0:12:57.720 --> 0:12:59.760 industries like the shipping industry. You may not be aware 0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:02.440 of this. In the shipping industry, many let's say companies 0:13:02.480 --> 0:13:04.640 in that industry don't actually own their own fleets, so 0:13:04.679 --> 0:13:07.520 they actually have very little power in actually doing any 0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:09.880 infrastructure changes or retrofitting to ships because they don't even 0:13:09.880 --> 0:13:11.960 own them. They're leasing them. So this is a problem 0:13:11.960 --> 0:13:14.000 we see often, and the fact that they can use 0:13:14.040 --> 0:13:17.120 a product which can be interchange in their current fleets 0:13:17.160 --> 0:13:20.320 without any problems from their fleet owners, that's a big win. 0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:22.960 So can you tell us where you are on the 0:13:23.040 --> 0:13:26.040 kind of journey of developing the technology is kind of 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:28.520 where you are now and where you are heading. 0:13:28.880 --> 0:13:32.320 Yeah, So we essentially build two demonstration plants quite quite 0:13:32.360 --> 0:13:34.800 large scale at this stage, and we're now developing our 0:13:34.800 --> 0:13:37.960 first commercial facility. We're going through a round of investment 0:13:38.360 --> 0:13:41.120 to support that and also have the let's say backing 0:13:41.320 --> 0:13:44.520 sort of speak of shipping companies alike who are interested 0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:46.400 in the product and wanting to off take that. So 0:13:46.440 --> 0:13:48.600 we're now going through this process. Right now, We've got 0:13:48.640 --> 0:13:52.160 our grenice gas savings validated for these products, which gives 0:13:52.320 --> 0:13:55.640 a lot of confidence in the market, and we're looking 0:13:55.640 --> 0:13:59.400 to scale up production essentially about technologies. It's an exciting 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:00.960 step right now in our company. 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:03.480 So you can't say we've got our greenhouse gas savings 0:14:03.559 --> 0:14:06.160 validated without telling us what those savings are. 0:14:08.040 --> 0:14:11.280 Yeah, So of our demo plant, in our mech technology, 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:14.640 we've actually got certification already ICIC plus and I see 0:14:14.679 --> 0:14:17.880 you to say formed certification for validating green ass gases. 0:14:18.000 --> 0:14:20.400 Keep in mind that fuels are generally in the regulated markets, 0:14:20.440 --> 0:14:22.160 especially in the EU, and so we have to meet 0:14:22.160 --> 0:14:27.320 those kind of regulations. The validations have shown for our 0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:29.400 mech fuels can achieve up to one hundred and forty 0:14:29.400 --> 0:14:32.960 five percent green ass acid, which is a very high number. Essentially, 0:14:33.040 --> 0:14:35.840 what this means is if you use our fuel, you 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:39.160 are not only contributing to carbon avoidance, but you're actually 0:14:39.240 --> 0:14:42.800 contributing to carbon removal. So you're doing good. You're actually 0:14:42.880 --> 0:14:46.160 removing carbon and sort of speak from an accounting perspective, 0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:48.360 you're removing carbon from the atmosphere and using our fuels, 0:14:48.680 --> 0:14:50.840 we believe that's one of the most sustainable fuels out 0:14:50.880 --> 0:14:53.680 there in terms of the green ass gas savings perspective, 0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:56.040 So that's exciting. And with our clear product, which is 0:14:56.080 --> 0:14:58.000 really where we're going to market with and what we're 0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:01.200 starting out with first, it is lower benchmarks up to 0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:04.040 eighty five percent green as gas sevings. But really the 0:15:04.080 --> 0:15:07.640 intention with this product and this technology is to focus 0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:10.800 on affordability. So we're really looking to bring a product 0:15:10.880 --> 0:15:14.200 to market that does not cost any ship owner any 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:17.760 more than what they're currently essentially paying for in this 0:15:17.800 --> 0:15:20.000 typical product that we produce, which is marine gas oil. 0:15:20.200 --> 0:15:23.200 So that's something that I think will disrupt the market entirely, 0:15:23.320 --> 0:15:25.840 providing a product that can compete with fossil fuels and 0:15:25.920 --> 0:15:29.280 still have certified greenass gass that are meaningful. That's where 0:15:29.280 --> 0:15:31.160 I think you have real impact is combining those two 0:15:31.200 --> 0:15:33.560 elements economics with sustainability. 0:15:33.920 --> 0:15:36.200 So what kind of scale do you need in terms 0:15:36.200 --> 0:15:39.880 of production to be able to offer it at the 0:15:39.920 --> 0:15:43.520 same price plus the environmental bonus? And yeah, and how 0:15:43.600 --> 0:15:46.120 are you going to go about financing it? I mean, 0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:49.080 one of the challenges we see for climate deep tech 0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:52.840 is kind of moving to first of a kind large 0:15:52.880 --> 0:15:56.040 production where you need kind of bigger amounts, maybe too 0:15:56.040 --> 0:15:59.280 big for the early VC buckers, but still too risky 0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:01.840 for the banks. What's your solution. 0:16:01.960 --> 0:16:05.160 Yeah, I think, I mean in general and climateech and 0:16:05.200 --> 0:16:08.480 sustainable fuels, that is definitely one of the hurdles for us. 0:16:08.680 --> 0:16:12.320 You know, we can achieve significantly the cost price of 0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:15.600 the product itself significantly below fossil pricing at a scale 0:16:15.680 --> 0:16:18.080 that is around what our first commercial proNT is, which 0:16:18.120 --> 0:16:19.680 is around what we call a C two, which is 0:16:19.720 --> 0:16:23.080 around fourteen thousand tons product per year, which is very 0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:24.920 small in the market, but it gives us an idea 0:16:24.920 --> 0:16:27.360 of the scale that we're starting out with our first module. 0:16:27.560 --> 0:16:31.800 To actually back these projects, we're using a combination of 0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:35.640 obviously equity dollars, you know, benure capital. The return on 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:38.920 the money and the efficiency of capital that we have 0:16:38.960 --> 0:16:41.160 on these projects is so high that we don't need 0:16:41.200 --> 0:16:43.120 to raise that much to actually deploy these kind of 0:16:43.120 --> 0:16:45.680 single modules, but to scale things up even further, and 0:16:45.680 --> 0:16:47.840 that's obviously our plan. We have pipeline projects with large 0:16:47.840 --> 0:16:50.520 shipping companies and others that we're working on. We're looking 0:16:50.640 --> 0:16:53.920 to obviously leverage the fact that we're using a modular plant, 0:16:54.040 --> 0:16:56.040 so we have our first module deployed and then going 0:16:56.120 --> 0:16:58.960 to banking and essentially an infrastructure funds and showing that 0:16:59.080 --> 0:17:02.200 multiple modules has actually no risk in what we've already 0:17:02.200 --> 0:17:04.399 done before. So that that's one, let's say, strategy, and 0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:07.679 the other strategies, of course leveraging ship owners and shipping 0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:09.959 companies that want the product, especially when they want it 0:17:10.040 --> 0:17:12.800 affordable product which doesn't exist in the market today. And 0:17:12.880 --> 0:17:14.399 the way to leverage that is say, well, if you 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:16.800 want the product, you need to support the project financing, 0:17:16.840 --> 0:17:19.600 and that's also something we're in discussions with so they 0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:22.680 may get discounts on the product in supporting on project financing, 0:17:22.880 --> 0:17:25.879 but that allows us to deploy larger projects in the 0:17:25.880 --> 0:17:27.720 short term until we get to bankability. 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:30.040 Well, because you've said that this is a drop in 0:17:30.119 --> 0:17:32.679 fuel first of also works with the existing infrastructure in 0:17:32.680 --> 0:17:36.000 the ships. It's going to be cost equivalent, so not 0:17:36.160 --> 0:17:40.040 at a hefty greenium premium that we so often find 0:17:40.080 --> 0:17:42.760 actually with the lower carbon solutions, at least when they're 0:17:42.760 --> 0:17:45.680 initially starting out, and then as things scale sometimes you 0:17:45.760 --> 0:17:48.119 get the inverse effect, as we see in many places 0:17:48.160 --> 0:17:50.960 with wind and solar technology and the energy sector for example. 0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:53.480 But you know what's the catch essentially, like, what is 0:17:53.560 --> 0:17:58.439 going to stop this from being widespread and everywhere? I 0:17:58.440 --> 0:18:02.560 mean policy would certainly spread forward, but in even cost 0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:05.199 you would think that most companies would adopt it. So 0:18:05.560 --> 0:18:08.679 how is it not going to be absolutely everywhere? 0:18:08.840 --> 0:18:12.080 Well, the main herder we have for the cheapest product 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:13.480 we have and we're using it as more of a 0:18:13.520 --> 0:18:15.960 Trocian course, so to speak, to build market share in 0:18:15.960 --> 0:18:18.440 our company and then be able to provide other options 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:22.320 to the industry. But the main issue there is scalability 0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:24.760 for this first let's say, cheapest product, there's only so 0:18:24.840 --> 0:18:26.840 much for example, shipping waste that we're looking at. We 0:18:26.920 --> 0:18:28.480 are looking at other wasts that they're in the same 0:18:28.520 --> 0:18:30.479 category that we could do it a lot good, but 0:18:30.600 --> 0:18:32.719 for us to make a big difference across the market, well, 0:18:32.920 --> 0:18:34.320 and you've got to remember, you know, this is a 0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:37.919 multi trillion dollar market, right, so us doing successfully or 0:18:37.920 --> 0:18:40.119 doing well is still only going to be a fraction 0:18:40.200 --> 0:18:41.800 of the market. You know, this is going to take 0:18:41.920 --> 0:18:45.720 a humongous effort across all players, both oil and gas 0:18:45.800 --> 0:18:49.199 and innovation and startups to actually move the needle. So 0:18:49.240 --> 0:18:51.240 the catch is for the cheapest product is that, yes, 0:18:51.320 --> 0:18:52.879 there is a limit to how much we can do 0:18:53.080 --> 0:18:55.840 and produce. For our subsequent product, which is from our 0:18:55.840 --> 0:18:59.119 mech technology, the scalability factor is not an issue, but 0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:01.040 they will be a premium and the question is is 0:19:01.040 --> 0:19:03.240 it too high or is it will it be enough? 0:19:03.359 --> 0:19:06.119 At this stage, we're very close or pretty much the 0:19:06.160 --> 0:19:08.439 same as the mad competitor, which has a limitation on 0:19:08.520 --> 0:19:11.920 scalability which would be kind of hbos and hefas basically 0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:15.040 from use cooking oil. We're a similar cost factor as 0:19:15.080 --> 0:19:18.639 that technology using Ligno celebrity, So we are getting that, 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:20.840 but that technology is still on the development and we 0:19:20.920 --> 0:19:22.840 hope to be able to kind of unlock the scalability 0:19:22.880 --> 0:19:23.800 question in the future. 0:19:23.960 --> 0:19:27.399 That's where then policy can certainly move things forward. And 0:19:27.480 --> 0:19:30.439 I'm thinking in the shipping industry, so sulfur has been 0:19:30.480 --> 0:19:33.600 one of those things that's been more heavily regulated. Is 0:19:33.640 --> 0:19:35.840