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Speaker 1: This is Dana Perkins and you're listening to Switched on

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Speaker 1: the b and EF podcast, and today we're bringing you

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Speaker 1: a special show focused on the b and EF Pioneers Program.

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Speaker 1: Each year, BNAF Pioneers awards outstanding early stage companies in

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Speaker 1: climate tech that could make a real difference in decarbonization

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Speaker 1: or biodiversity. We'll start today's show by speaking with Benjamin Caffrey,

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Speaker 1: co chair of the Pioneers Program. Benji, thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for joining us today.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for inviting me again. It's great to be here.

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Speaker 1: So before we talk about BNF Pioneers and the challenges

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Speaker 1: and the interviews that we're going to get into with

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Speaker 1: a few of this year's winners, why don't you explain

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Speaker 1: to everyone listening what BNAF Pioneers is.

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Speaker 3: So.

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Speaker 2: BNF Pioneers Program, it's basically our way to reward exciting

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Speaker 2: climate tech innovation. We have been running it for fifteen years,

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Speaker 2: so it's our fifteen years anniversary and it's basically innovators

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Speaker 2: competition and every year we'll try and pick three unsolved

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Speaker 2: climate innovation gaps to focus on, and we'll have a

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Speaker 2: force category that we call the Wildcards. So any other

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Speaker 2: innovative climate technology, and we look at how innovative and

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Speaker 2: original these ventures are, and we'll also look into basically

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Speaker 2: the momentum they have and how successful they could be,

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Speaker 2: and very importantly the impact that they have are there

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Speaker 2: on climate, on biodiversity. So kind of these are the

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Speaker 2: three criterias, and we'll go through the process and celebrate

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Speaker 2: the winners at the end.

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Speaker 1: So we've been doing Pioneers for as long as I've

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Speaker 1: been at BNF, so we've reached a milestone anniversary this year,

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Speaker 1: so fifteen years of doing Pioneers. But in addition to that,

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Speaker 1: you know, what are some of the ways that you

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Speaker 1: measure the successes maybe not necessarily of pioneers, but of

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Speaker 1: the companies themselves, And what are some of the you know, facts,

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Speaker 1: We love a good figure on the show, So what's

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Speaker 1: a fact and figure that might illustrate that for us?

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Speaker 2: So in fifteen years, we have one hundred and fifty

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Speaker 2: two winners, alumni winners, and they have been quite successful.

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Speaker 2: They have raised cumulatively more than twenty billion dollars of

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Speaker 2: the years, one point three billion actually in the last year,

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Speaker 2: which wasn't an easy one for venture raising. And they

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Speaker 2: have had a lot of success story. Around forty percent

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Speaker 2: of the Pioneers at an exit, so either through an

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Speaker 2: M and A or going to the public market, and

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Speaker 2: a similar amount of them and another thirty to forty

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Speaker 2: percent are still going and raise money in the last

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Speaker 2: few years, so really good success rate.

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Speaker 1: And today we're going to feature a wild card because

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Speaker 1: there's always something that we just can't leave on the table,

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Speaker 1: So we will feature a wildcard today in true being

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Speaker 1: a fashion. But what is the formal challenge that we're

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Speaker 1: also going to feature a couple of winners from on

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Speaker 1: today's show.

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Speaker 2: So one of the challenges for this year was creating

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Speaker 2: the next generation of zero fuels, and we'll focus on

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Speaker 2: the winners from that challenge, and as you said, our

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Speaker 2: biodiversity winner from the wildcard category.

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Speaker 1: So there are no shortage of climate tech areas that

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Speaker 1: need innovation of the mom and we're looking ahead to

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Speaker 1: our next set of Pioneers challenges, So can you tell

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Speaker 1: us what those three are? And of course there'll be

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Speaker 1: a wildcard, But what are the three challenges that we

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Speaker 1: are actively receiving applications for right now?

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Speaker 2: So next year challenges are both super important and super interesting.

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Speaker 2: The first one is that around making light industry more sustainable,

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Speaker 2: so looking anything from textile to semiconductor industry and how

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Speaker 2: they can decarbonize. The second one is all innovation around storage,

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Speaker 2: and the third one is innovation around climate adaptation.

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Speaker 1: So if you or someone you know would fit as

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Speaker 1: an innovator in one of these categories, you can apply

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Speaker 1: and learn more about pioneers by going to about dot

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Speaker 1: BNF dot com forward slash BNF Pioneers, and you'll also

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Speaker 1: be able to see previous challenges and learn about some

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Speaker 1: of the winners from previous years, including some of the

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Speaker 1: people we're going to feature on today's show, which then

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Speaker 1: brings us to those we're going to hear from today.

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Speaker 1: So we will be speaking with Nicholas Ball, who's the

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Speaker 1: CEO of x Fuel, Mike DeCamp, president and CEO of Covercress,

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Speaker 1: and Dimple Patel, CEO of Nature Metrics. So let's get

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Speaker 1: into our first conversation, which is with Nicholas Ball, the

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Speaker 1: CEO of x Fuel. Now x fuel have pioneered a

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Speaker 1: technology that converts biomass waste into a low carbon drop

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Speaker 1: in fuel. Let's talk to Nicholas about how they've gone

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Speaker 1: about that. I am joined today with our guest from

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Speaker 1: x Fuel, Nicholas hi th So we're here to talk

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Speaker 1: about x fuel, but before we get into the solutions

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Speaker 1: from the company that you know, you are here to

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Speaker 1: tell us more about let's talk about transportation broadly and

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Speaker 1: really what attracted you to it, but really the scale

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Speaker 1: of the problem with decarbonizing transport, which is certainly something

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Speaker 1: BNF is watching closely. But you know from your perspective,

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Speaker 1: why is transport such an important sector for us to

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Speaker 1: before focused on.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, I think it's one of the most let's

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Speaker 3: say important sectors because it's one of those blind spots

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Speaker 3: that people are not quite thinking about as much as

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Speaker 3: they probably should. So, you know, transportation emits. I think

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Speaker 3: it's over eight giga tons of certwo COO per year.

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Speaker 3: It's about fifteen percent of global emissions and growing. But

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Speaker 3: I think what people don't realize, and this came out

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Speaker 3: of the idea that the oil consumption for shipping and

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Speaker 3: aviation specifically, and you probably are aware that's the hardest to abate.

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Speaker 3: Let's say, sectors within transportation is actually protected to increase

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Speaker 3: over sixty percent by twenty fifty with the current policies

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Speaker 3: in place. So this is a huge problem. And really

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Speaker 3: it comes down to the fact that there aren't solutions

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Speaker 3: that are either viable, so you know, not electrication or

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Speaker 3: things like that, or they're simply not dropped in and

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Speaker 3: of course they're too expensive typically what we'd find with

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Speaker 3: liquid fuels. But yeah, that's the main issue in transportation.

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Speaker 1: Well, so that industry issue is there. But why you

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Speaker 1: what drew you to this space?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I have a mixed background in general. My

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Speaker 3: background is a blend of kind of academia, industry, and

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Speaker 3: a general personal commitment to sustainability. I have kind of

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Speaker 3: a strong foundation in science and engineering, you know, PhD

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Speaker 3: from Peer College, so it's a very different area and

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Speaker 3: the more technical side. From a personal level, you know,

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Speaker 3: I grew up in the Mediterranean, I live in the Mediterranean.

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Speaker 3: I have a love for nature, for the environment, and

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Speaker 3: I never really had a clear way of joining those

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Speaker 3: two parts of my life until I actually met my

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Speaker 3: CTO and our CEO. Originally, I actually was a founder

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Speaker 3: in the company, an investor founder, i should say, so,

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Speaker 3: I was an investor in that respect, and I just

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Speaker 3: saw the developments of the technology go on and on

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Speaker 3: and realized that I could really make a difference and

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Speaker 3: be part of the team and support them and the

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Speaker 3: development of the technology and the commercialization of it specifically.

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Speaker 3: So it was actually out of I would say luck

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Speaker 3: that I got to transition into a sector that I

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Speaker 3: love and I'm passionate about, but never really had a

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Speaker 3: firm footing it, And so like a lot of us,

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Speaker 3: I actually started learning about it more and more during

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Speaker 3: that phase, during the investment phase and being part of

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Speaker 3: the board and then moving onto the management team about

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Speaker 3: four years ago, and combine my technical business acumen as

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Speaker 3: well as a sustainability and love for that. I met

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Speaker 3: my co founder's CEO, who was very passionate around technologies

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Speaker 3: that can disrupt the status quob So the technology has

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Speaker 3: been developed over a number of years in our company,

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Speaker 3: but his essentially frustration came out of the core belief

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Speaker 3: that low carbon fuels will have to be drop in

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Speaker 3: and economically competitive with fossil fuels to really achieve any

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Speaker 3: significant market share and actually have an impact. And I

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Speaker 3: brought into that and I still do right, I think

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Speaker 3: that still is the case, and of course now we

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Speaker 3: have policies and changing, but my I think love for

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Speaker 3: the fact that we can disrupt this market and it's

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Speaker 3: so right for disruption because there are just so few

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Speaker 3: options and solutions brought me into the sustainability side and

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Speaker 3: actually developing this company.

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Speaker 2: So tell us more about kind of your solution and technologies.

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Speaker 3: Well, we've you know, we spent a number of years

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Speaker 3: of developing a kind of wide range of different technologies

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Speaker 3: for the industry. We've developed one which focuses more on

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Speaker 3: on ligno cellistic biomass. I should probably mention that all

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Speaker 3: our products are aiming to be drop in solutions, and

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Speaker 3: maybe I should unpack what that really means. Drop in

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Speaker 3: solutions mean that we produce a fuel that meets the

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Speaker 3: current fossil fuel specifications and can be inter changed with

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Speaker 3: current fuels without requiring any infrastructure or deployment. And so

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Speaker 3: that's a really important point for us because we think

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Speaker 3: when we speak to customers, you know, if they have

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Speaker 3: to deploy other kind of infrastructure or capex, that that's

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Speaker 3: a big barrier to entry. But we've essentially developed technologies

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Speaker 3: in this space working with different waste materials, and we

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Speaker 3: focus solely on waste to be able to bring down

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Speaker 3: the cost of them and develop them a wide ramage

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Speaker 3: of different technologies to achieve that.

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Speaker 2: We'd love to hear more how your technology is different

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Speaker 2: than what I've been tried so far?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and also what you have tried so far. I mean,

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Speaker 1: how many things did you have to get wrong in

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Speaker 1: order to get it right?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, we were still trying to get things right.

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Speaker 3: I should say that I think we all are right.

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Speaker 3: So there's no bullet proof solutions here. But we've developed

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Speaker 3: two different technologies and we have to plants deployed on

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Speaker 3: this already. But one technology really focuses on waste from

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Speaker 3: the let's say agriculture industry and forestry, and she basically

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Speaker 3: ligmicellarsy biomass, and the intention here is to bring essentially

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Speaker 3: a drop in fuel from ligma cellar sig materials and

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Speaker 3: waste oils and produce a fuel for the shipping industry.

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Speaker 3: But at the same time, I think what's beautiful about

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Speaker 3: this particular technology is that we also produce biochart and

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Speaker 3: it has a lot of additional benefits from greenss, gas

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Speaker 3: savings and such. The other technology we developed is more

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Speaker 3: of a kind of second step to this, which is

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Speaker 3: what we call clear or chemical liquid refining CLR. And

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Speaker 3: this is more of a refining, cracking, and essentially deeply

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Speaker 3: sufturization technology. And don't want to go to technical unless

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Speaker 3: some of your listeners are technical, but essentially we can

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Speaker 3: take you know, contaminated and low quality hydrocarbon liquids and

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Speaker 3: tenement to very high spec marine road in aviation fuels.

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Speaker 3: And we've been using this more and more with different applications,

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Speaker 3: and not just a bolt onto our mech technology, but

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Speaker 3: as a standalone technology which can create some pretty impressive

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Speaker 3: fuels from both the technology perspective but also from an

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Speaker 3: economic perspective stainability perspectively.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure plenty of our listeners are very technical,

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Speaker 1: but I'm going to zoom way out because one of

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Speaker 1: the things we really try and do on this show

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Speaker 1: are explainers, and biochar is one of them. So we

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Speaker 1: actually had a biochar producer as a previous Pioneers winner.

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Speaker 1: But for those who are not familiar with biochar, would

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Speaker 1: you explain what that is?

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Speaker 3: Biochart essentially the paralysis nature of any biomass or igno

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Speaker 3: cellosic biomass and turning it into a form which would

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Speaker 3: permanently store the carbon within it. So in using that

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Speaker 3: in different materials or in the forresterry industry, or if

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Speaker 3: you're essentially bearing it in a low oxygen ambient, you

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Speaker 3: can assure that the carbon that is within that would

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Speaker 3: be locked away, so it can be used in other materials.

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Speaker 3: And there are forms within or let's say, materials within

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Speaker 3: biochart which can be used in other industries, and that

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Speaker 3: can include graphine and other things. But in this particular case,

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Speaker 3: what we're using it for is for the carbon sequestration

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Speaker 3: benefits of the process. And excitingly enough, where I think

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Speaker 3: the one of the only technologies that can produce for

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Speaker 3: talking about mechia can produce both a drop in transportation

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Speaker 3: fuel and biotart at the same time, which allows us

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Speaker 3: to allocate these savings to our fuels themselves and achieve

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Speaker 3: some carbon negative fuels some pretty exciting steps in the future.

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Speaker 2: You mentioned feedstock just before. I mean, how important is

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Speaker 2: to secure enough feedstock? Is that an issue at all?

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Speaker 2: And kind of diversity of feedstock that you could use

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Speaker 2: it is.

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Speaker 3: A huge problem for a wider impact perspective, So you

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Speaker 3: keep in mind right currently the low carbon fuels make

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Speaker 3: up two percent of all essentially liquid fuels in the

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Speaker 3: market today, and of that all of them are practically biofuels.

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Speaker 3: I think it's ninety five or ninety eight percent is biofuels.

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Speaker 3: The reason why we haven't scaled is obviously economics, but

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Speaker 3: also the scalabilities. You say, so securing these feedstocks is

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Speaker 3: critical from that perspective, but from a company that is

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Speaker 3: growing and market opportunity, there are plenty of opportunities, especially

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Speaker 3: working with ligno cellusic waste and biomass waste in general,

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Speaker 3: there's a lot of that material around. Our other technology

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Speaker 3: does focus on other feedstocks, which kind of gives us

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Speaker 3: a bit more let's say, flexibility in terms of what

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Speaker 3: we can use now as.

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Speaker 1: A drop in fuel, you've removed the need to actually

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Speaker 1: spend money by the purchaser and your client in retrofitting

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Speaker 1: or buying different ships and equipment on their end. But

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Speaker 1: are they getting the same energy density from the fuel

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Speaker 1: that you're providing, And really what I'm asking is so

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Speaker 1: they have to refuel more often or less often or.

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Speaker 3: The same No, That's it's a fantastic question, and it's

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Speaker 3: something that we see with other alternative fuels, where you

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Speaker 3: would typically have half densities or something like that. In

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Speaker 3: our case, we meet the sophistications for the fuels themselves,

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Speaker 3: which actually have the same energy densities as the current

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Speaker 3: fossil fuels. So this is what we aim for and

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Speaker 3: would essentially have the same fueling needs in using our products,

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Speaker 3: and we think that's really important. And also being able

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Speaker 3: to use it and handle it. A lot of the

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Speaker 3: operational site, a lot of the bunkering side is a

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Speaker 3: lot simpler when you're using a product that they already

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Speaker 3: familiar with. So that's something that we are proud of

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Speaker 3: and something that we think is it critical, especially for

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Speaker 3: industries like the shipping industry. You may not be aware

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Speaker 3: of this. In the shipping industry, many let's say companies

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Speaker 3: in that industry don't actually own their own fleets, so

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Speaker 3: they actually have very little power in actually doing any

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Speaker 3: infrastructure changes or retrofitting to ships because they don't even

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Speaker 3: own them. They're leasing them. So this is a problem

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Speaker 3: we see often, and the fact that they can use

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Speaker 3: a product which can be interchange in their current fleets

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Speaker 3: without any problems from their fleet owners, that's a big win.

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Speaker 2: So can you tell us where you are on the

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Speaker 2: kind of journey of developing the technology is kind of

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Speaker 2: where you are now and where you are heading.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So we essentially build two demonstration plants quite quite

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Speaker 3: large scale at this stage, and we're now developing our

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Speaker 3: first commercial facility. We're going through a round of investment

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Speaker 3: to support that and also have the let's say backing

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Speaker 3: sort of speak of shipping companies alike who are interested

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Speaker 3: in the product and wanting to off take that. So

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Speaker 3: we're now going through this process. Right now, We've got

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Speaker 3: our grenice gas savings validated for these products, which gives

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Speaker 3: a lot of confidence in the market, and we're looking

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Speaker 3: to scale up production essentially about technologies. It's an exciting

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Speaker 3: step right now in our company.

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Speaker 1: So you can't say we've got our greenhouse gas savings

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Speaker 1: validated without telling us what those savings are.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So of our demo plant, in our mech technology,

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Speaker 3: we've actually got certification already ICIC plus and I see

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Speaker 3: you to say formed certification for validating green ass gases.

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Speaker 3: Keep in mind that fuels are generally in the regulated markets,

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Speaker 3: especially in the EU, and so we have to meet

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Speaker 3: those kind of regulations. The validations have shown for our

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Speaker 3: mech fuels can achieve up to one hundred and forty

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Speaker 3: five percent green ass acid, which is a very high number. Essentially,

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Speaker 3: what this means is if you use our fuel, you

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Speaker 3: are not only contributing to carbon avoidance, but you're actually

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Speaker 3: contributing to carbon removal. So you're doing good. You're actually

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Speaker 3: removing carbon and sort of speak from an accounting perspective,

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Speaker 3: you're removing carbon from the atmosphere and using our fuels,

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Speaker 3: we believe that's one of the most sustainable fuels out

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Speaker 3: there in terms of the green ass gas savings perspective,

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Speaker 3: So that's exciting. And with our clear product, which is

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Speaker 3: really where we're going to market with and what we're

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Speaker 3: starting out with first, it is lower benchmarks up to

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Speaker 3: eighty five percent green as gas sevings. But really the

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Speaker 3: intention with this product and this technology is to focus

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Speaker 3: on affordability. So we're really looking to bring a product

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Speaker 3: to market that does not cost any ship owner any

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Speaker 3: more than what they're currently essentially paying for in this

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Speaker 3: typical product that we produce, which is marine gas oil.

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Speaker 3: So that's something that I think will disrupt the market entirely,

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Speaker 3: providing a product that can compete with fossil fuels and

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Speaker 3: still have certified greenass gass that are meaningful. That's where

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Speaker 3: I think you have real impact is combining those two

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Speaker 3: elements economics with sustainability.

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Speaker 2: So what kind of scale do you need in terms

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Speaker 2: of production to be able to offer it at the

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Speaker 2: same price plus the environmental bonus? And yeah, and how

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Speaker 2: are you going to go about financing it? I mean,

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Speaker 2: one of the challenges we see for climate deep tech

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Speaker 2: is kind of moving to first of a kind large

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Speaker 2: production where you need kind of bigger amounts, maybe too

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Speaker 2: big for the early VC buckers, but still too risky

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Speaker 2: for the banks. What's your solution.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think, I mean in general and climateech and

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Speaker 3: sustainable fuels, that is definitely one of the hurdles for us.

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Speaker 3: You know, we can achieve significantly the cost price of

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Speaker 3: the product itself significantly below fossil pricing at a scale

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Speaker 3: that is around what our first commercial proNT is, which

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Speaker 3: is around what we call a C two, which is

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Speaker 3: around fourteen thousand tons product per year, which is very

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Speaker 3: small in the market, but it gives us an idea

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Speaker 3: of the scale that we're starting out with our first module.

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Speaker 3: To actually back these projects, we're using a combination of

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Speaker 3: obviously equity dollars, you know, benure capital. The return on

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Speaker 3: the money and the efficiency of capital that we have

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Speaker 3: on these projects is so high that we don't need

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Speaker 3: to raise that much to actually deploy these kind of

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Speaker 3: single modules, but to scale things up even further, and

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Speaker 3: that's obviously our plan. We have pipeline projects with large

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Speaker 3: shipping companies and others that we're working on. We're looking

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Speaker 3: to obviously leverage the fact that we're using a modular plant,

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Speaker 3: so we have our first module deployed and then going

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Speaker 3: to banking and essentially an infrastructure funds and showing that

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Speaker 3: multiple modules has actually no risk in what we've already

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Speaker 3: done before. So that that's one, let's say, strategy, and

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Speaker 3: the other strategies, of course leveraging ship owners and shipping

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Speaker 3: companies that want the product, especially when they want it

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Speaker 3: affordable product which doesn't exist in the market today. And

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Speaker 3: the way to leverage that is say, well, if you

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Speaker 3: want the product, you need to support the project financing,

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Speaker 3: and that's also something we're in discussions with so they

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Speaker 3: may get discounts on the product in supporting on project financing,

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Speaker 3: but that allows us to deploy larger projects in the

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Speaker 3: short term until we get to bankability.

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Speaker 1: Well, because you've said that this is a drop in

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Speaker 1: fuel first of also works with the existing infrastructure in

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Speaker 1: the ships. It's going to be cost equivalent, so not

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Speaker 1: at a hefty greenium premium that we so often find

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Speaker 1: actually with the lower carbon solutions, at least when they're

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Speaker 1: initially starting out, and then as things scale sometimes you

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Speaker 1: get the inverse effect, as we see in many places

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Speaker 1: with wind and solar technology and the energy sector for example.

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Speaker 1: But you know what's the catch essentially, like, what is

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Speaker 1: going to stop this from being widespread and everywhere? I

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Speaker 1: mean policy would certainly spread forward, but in even cost

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Speaker 1: you would think that most companies would adopt it. So

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Speaker 1: how is it not going to be absolutely everywhere?

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Speaker 3: Well, the main herder we have for the cheapest product

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Speaker 3: we have and we're using it as more of a

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Speaker 3: Trocian course, so to speak, to build market share in

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Speaker 3: our company and then be able to provide other options

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Speaker 3: to the industry. But the main issue there is scalability

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Speaker 3: for this first let's say, cheapest product, there's only so

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Speaker 3: much for example, shipping waste that we're looking at. We

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Speaker 3: are looking at other wasts that they're in the same

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Speaker 3: category that we could do it a lot good, but

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Speaker 3: for us to make a big difference across the market, well,

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Speaker 3: and you've got to remember, you know, this is a

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Speaker 3: multi trillion dollar market, right, so us doing successfully or

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Speaker 3: doing well is still only going to be a fraction

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Speaker 3: of the market. You know, this is going to take

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Speaker 3: a humongous effort across all players, both oil and gas

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Speaker 3: and innovation and startups to actually move the needle. So

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Speaker 3: the catch is for the cheapest product is that, yes,

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Speaker 3: there is a limit to how much we can do

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Speaker 3: and produce. For our subsequent product, which is from our

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Speaker 3: mech technology, the scalability factor is not an issue, but

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Speaker 3: they will be a premium and the question is is

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Speaker 3: it too high or is it will it be enough?

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Speaker 3: At this stage, we're very close or pretty much the

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Speaker 3: same as the mad competitor, which has a limitation on

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Speaker 3: scalability which would be kind of hbos and hefas basically

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Speaker 3: from use cooking oil. We're a similar cost factor as

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Speaker 3: that technology using Ligno celebrity, So we are getting that,

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Speaker 3: but that technology is still on the development and we

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Speaker 3: hope to be able to kind of unlock the scalability

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Speaker 3: question in the future.

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Speaker 1: That's where then policy can certainly move things forward. And

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking in the shipping industry, so sulfur has been

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Speaker 1: one of those things that's been more heavily regulated. Is

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Speaker 1: there a difference there as well, and is there any

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Speaker 1: environmental benefit from a sulfur standpoint.

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Speaker 3: It's a great question because we've only just started looking

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Speaker 3: at from that perspective. So the technology we do have

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Speaker 3: in theory can desulfurize high sulfur fuels. I mean from

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Speaker 3: a greenhouse gas perspective, there isn't much benefit because you know,

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Speaker 3: at the end of the day, if you're taking fossil

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Speaker 3: high sulfur fuels, of course there is limited benefits there.

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Speaker 3: But from an air pollution perspective and from a general

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Speaker 3: kind of environmental perspective, there is any benefits to that.

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Speaker 3: And so that is something we're kind of getting asked

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Speaker 3: a lot by, as you can imagine, because that has

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Speaker 3: a huge, wide applications across the world for desulfarizing kind

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Speaker 3: of heavy sulfur fuels. It's not our priority and it's

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Speaker 3: not really our focus at the moment, but it does

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Speaker 3: our technology does have that application, right, it can be

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Speaker 3: used for something like that.

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Speaker 1: Nicholas thank you very much for joining today and talking

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Speaker 1: to us not only about the shipping industry, but you

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Speaker 1: know we could spend much longer also talking about decarbonizing aviation.

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Speaker 1: So how x fuel is tackling decarbonizing hard to abate transport.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much.

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Speaker 1: Next we'll hear from Mike to Camp, president and CEO

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Speaker 1: of Covercress. Covercress have converted a common winter weed into

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Speaker 1: a novel crop that can be used for everything from

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Speaker 1: animal feed to biofuels. Mike, thank you very much for

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Speaker 1: joining on.

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Speaker 4: Switched on today, Hidiana, It's so great to be here.

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Speaker 2: So tell us more about covercress. I mean, my understanding

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Speaker 2: the feedstock is, you know the type of weed you'll

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Speaker 2: see on the side of the road driving in the US,

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Speaker 2: and how you guys kind of managed to bring it

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Speaker 2: into a really good feedstock for buyfield.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Benji's that's exactly right. I mean, it would not

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Speaker 4: be uncommon. So when you come to visit, if it's

436
00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:19,800
Speaker 4: the right time of the year, I will point out

437
00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:22,399
Speaker 4: to you pennycrest growing in a ditch somewhere along the

438
00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:24,120
Speaker 4: side of the road, and you can see the weed

439
00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:26,120
Speaker 4: version of what we started with. But let me give

440
00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:29,639
Speaker 4: credit where credit's due. Actually, so this concept started with

441
00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:34,200
Speaker 4: the USDA. There's a gentleman there, researcher, doctor Terry Isbel,

442
00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:36,840
Speaker 4: who was tasked in the mid two thousands by the

443
00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:41,320
Speaker 4: USDA thinking through what are other agriculture based feedstocks that

444
00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:43,560
Speaker 4: could be used to make renewable fuels. So we had

445
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,240
Speaker 4: gone through a big cycle with corn and corn going

446
00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:48,280
Speaker 4: to ethanol, and that put a lot up became clear.

447
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:50,920
Speaker 4: While it was a great opportunity for farmers to have

448
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:54,000
Speaker 4: a new outlet for their corn crops is a feedstock

449
00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:56,280
Speaker 4: for making fuel. It put a lot of pressure on

450
00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:58,760
Speaker 4: that crop right relative to our food and feed needs

451
00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:04,280
Speaker 4: and looking for alternative sources, and doctor Isabel quickly identified pennycrests.

452
00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:07,399
Speaker 4: And there are probably two main reasons pennycrest rose to

453
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:09,800
Speaker 4: the forefront of all the different crops he was looking at.

454
00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:12,240
Speaker 4: One is it's a winter crop, right, so it grows

455
00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:14,760
Speaker 4: during a fallow period here in the Midwest. It grows

456
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,479
Speaker 4: in between a corn and soybean rotation, so there's no

457
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:20,800
Speaker 4: new land that's needed right, So right away that's a plus.

458
00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:23,520
Speaker 4: If you're trying to do something from a sustainability standpoint,

459
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,119
Speaker 4: then you don't want to displace the acres that are

460
00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:29,159
Speaker 4: already being used for your main crops. It's great to

461
00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:32,000
Speaker 4: be able to use that same land that's otherwise sitting idol.

462
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:34,760
Speaker 4: So that's one, and then second is the oil content.

463
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:38,119
Speaker 4: So Pennycress has a very high oil content. We're about

464
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:40,240
Speaker 4: thirty percent of the seed is oil and the rest

465
00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:42,640
Speaker 4: of it's the meal protein side. And just to put

466
00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:45,840
Speaker 4: that in perspective for the listeners, if you think about soybeans,

467
00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:48,560
Speaker 4: soybeans are about twenty percent oil. So soybeans are a

468
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,040
Speaker 4: very important oil seed. They are using in a lot

469
00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:53,800
Speaker 4: of different markets. They're a big contributor as a feedstock

470
00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:56,919
Speaker 4: source for renewable fuels. So having, you know, fifty percent

471
00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,600
Speaker 4: more oil means a lot right in the production of anything.

472
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:02,440
Speaker 4: If you can that fifty percent more efficient supply source,

473
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,439
Speaker 4: that's a real positive thing. So that's what caught doctor

474
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:09,520
Speaker 4: Isbel's attention, and then through various public and private partnerships,

475
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:13,000
Speaker 4: cover Cress, which was founded in twenty thirteen, started to

476
00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:16,600
Speaker 4: move that forward from the idea stage identified with the

477
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:21,240
Speaker 4: USDA into initially going through our product development research stage

478
00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:23,240
Speaker 4: to see if we can really make this a product

479
00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:25,280
Speaker 4: make this a true crop, and then where we are

480
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:28,600
Speaker 4: today in terms of actually being in a commercial market.

481
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,720
Speaker 1: Can you talk a bit about the technology and the

482
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:35,760
Speaker 1: innovation that really goes into this. Because the pennycress has

483
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,720
Speaker 1: an element to it that is then genetically modified that

484
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,760
Speaker 1: makes it basically the crop that is actually being used

485
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:45,040
Speaker 1: in this capacity. How did that come about and what

486
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:46,400
Speaker 1: are really the big differences?

487
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, maybe, Dana, just one correction. I think it's really important.

488
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:51,680
Speaker 4: Right when we use the word genetically modified, there's really

489
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:54,520
Speaker 4: two terms that are used when a plant is altered.

490
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:57,960
Speaker 4: So genetic modification which is something that monsanle bear today,

491
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:00,439
Speaker 4: cortivas and genta, a lot of others I've used for

492
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:03,160
Speaker 4: a long time now, and that's actually where you're taking

493
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 4: foreign DNA and serting it into a plant to create

494
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,360
Speaker 4: an outcome. Right, So that's genetic modification. The other one

495
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,280
Speaker 4: is gene editing. Gene editing is much different. Gene editing

496
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,439
Speaker 4: is really similar to breeding. So with gene editing, what

497
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:17,800
Speaker 4: you're doing is you're going into the DNA and you're

498
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:20,159
Speaker 4: able to knock out a function, so you're not changing

499
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 4: the DNA, you're not putting any foreign DNA in you're

500
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 4: knocking out a function in that DNA using a technology

501
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:29,680
Speaker 4: called crispur and in our case we use Crisper cast nine.

502
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:33,040
Speaker 4: So when Covercrest was founded, we're all x Mon Sandle

503
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:35,919
Speaker 4: people have a lot of experience not only in what

504
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,840
Speaker 4: it takes to bring a new technology to the market

505
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 4: in the form of a plant material in our case

506
00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:44,480
Speaker 4: right taking pennycrest, turning it into cover Crest, but also

507
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,919
Speaker 4: all the regulatory framework that it takes to get that forward.

508
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,239
Speaker 4: And we knew it'd be very difficult if we went

509
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,359
Speaker 4: the gene modification route, so we were focused on gene editing.

510
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 4: So the two technologies we worked with to change the

511
00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 4: composition of Pennycrest to turn it into cover crest. First

512
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:03,719
Speaker 4: was traditional breeding, So we using traditional breeding methodologies right

513
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:05,600
Speaker 4: where we went out and we have. We started with

514
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:09,320
Speaker 4: over eight hundred different accessions or lines of pennycrest that

515
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:12,160
Speaker 4: we had accumulated throughout the United States and some from

516
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 4: outside the United States, and just started planting those plants,

517
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:19,000
Speaker 4: identifying what those traits are, and then looking for those

518
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 4: that perform well and then making crosses. Right just traditional

519
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,040
Speaker 4: breeding to start to improve really two aspects. How can

520
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 4: we improve yield, and how can we improve the maturity

521
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,439
Speaker 4: of the plant. The second technology that we brought in

522
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,040
Speaker 4: was the gene editing technology, and in there we were

523
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:35,879
Speaker 4: looking to do really three key things. One, we wanted

524
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:39,080
Speaker 4: to change the composition of the seed that make it

525
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:42,359
Speaker 4: work better for animals, So we really needed to reduce

526
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 4: the fiber content. So we have an edit where we

527
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:49,120
Speaker 4: lower the fiber content of pennycrest that turns our pennycrest seed,

528
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 4: which is a dark black seed into a very light

529
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 4: yellow golden color seed. That happens through a s thinning

530
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:58,280
Speaker 4: of the seed coat. We've improved the oil, We've eliminated

531
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 4: in a healthy aspect in the old called urusic acid,

532
00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:04,199
Speaker 4: we've eliminated that, which again was really important for animal

533
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 4: feed purposes. And then Pennycrest is part of the Braska

534
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 4: family of plants. And if you think of things that

535
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 4: we eat as humans, mustard, broccoli, garlic, those are all

536
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,439
Speaker 4: brassicas they have a compound called glucascentilate that have this

537
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:21,639
Speaker 4: strong taste profile for animals. Having a high glucocentilate level

538
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 4: makes it difficult sometimes for them to feed on it.

539
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:26,119
Speaker 4: They're not attracted to it, so we had to be

540
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:29,880
Speaker 4: able to lower the glucoscinilate level, which are specific lucascinolates

541
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 4: called sinnegrin.

542
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 2: So if I'm a farmer and I'm listening to this,

543
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 2: I said, hey, yeah, I'd love to try that. What

544
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 2: as a step that I need to do? I mean,

545
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 2: is there any additional equipment or pre treatment I need

546
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,360
Speaker 2: to kind of implement into my cycle or how does

547
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:45,960
Speaker 2: it look from the farmer point of view?

548
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 4: Let me answer that two ways.

549
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 3: I think.

550
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 4: One what's really important and one of the things that

551
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:53,200
Speaker 4: are a lot of the experience that those of us

552
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,639
Speaker 4: that came out of monsand brought to cover Crest was

553
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:58,400
Speaker 4: a realization that if we're going to introduce something as

554
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,440
Speaker 4: novel as cover crests right a new crop, even though

555
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 4: we're offering a farmer a new opportunity which should get

556
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 4: them excited, we had to take a different approach than

557
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,199
Speaker 4: a lot of what Big eggs done in the past,

558
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 4: and that's pushing too.

559
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 3: Much risk on the farmer.

560
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,119
Speaker 4: So really, first to get started with a farmer, a

561
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 4: farmer's got to understand that they get a trial period

562
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 4: on this. They get a chance to see how does

563
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,920
Speaker 4: this working with covercrest. How does this fit into their

564
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 4: cropping rotation? That's the number one and that's kind of

565
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,199
Speaker 4: the contracting system that we have. But then if you're

566
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 4: past that and the farmer says, okay, I like that, Mike,

567
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 4: I'm happy to give this a shot. Now, how do

568
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 4: I do it right? What are the agonomic practices to

569
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 4: do that? The great news is that it's nothing different

570
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,640
Speaker 4: from what they do today. So a farmer, after let's

571
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 4: say a corn harvest, will do a slight vertical tillage

572
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:46,679
Speaker 4: of their ground to break up the cornstover. Well, at

573
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,440
Speaker 4: that time they can seed covercrest. So they're able to

574
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,360
Speaker 4: just piggyback onto an activity that they're already doing. There's

575
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,720
Speaker 4: no new activity to actually get cover crest seeded. While

576
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 4: covercrest grows over the fall. In the winter, there's nothing

577
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 4: that a farmer needs to do. Crop starts to develop,

578
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:03,920
Speaker 4: relying on mother nature to bring a little bit of moisture,

579
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 4: and then when we get to the early spring, we

580
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 4: do ask the farmer to do a little bit of

581
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 4: a fertilization. In the spring, we need about fifty pounds

582
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,160
Speaker 4: of nitrogen just to give the crop what it needs

583
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 4: to be able to fully produce, and then when we

584
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 4: get to harvest, the farmer uses his combine and then

585
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 4: on the front end they use a traditional soybeing head.

586
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,159
Speaker 4: If you've ever seen a soybean harvest versus a corn harvest,

587
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,160
Speaker 4: it's a rolling head that cuts it like grass almost.

588
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 4: It's that same technology that already exists.

589
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 3: So no new.

590
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:33,439
Speaker 4: Equipment that a farmer needs.

591
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,120
Speaker 1: Well, so let's talk about why a farmer might want

592
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 1: to embrace cover cress. What's the financial opportunity for them?

593
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 1: I mean, is it a big one and are they

594
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 1: super motivated to really seize this or is it sort

595
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 1: of on the margins.

596
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 4: It's hard to say. I would say it's definitely not

597
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 4: on the margins. Right, we're introducing a third crop and

598
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 4: what used to be a two crop rotation, right, so

599
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 4: now they have a farmer has the opportunity to earn

600
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 4: three cash crops in two seasons where they otherwise whatever

601
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 4: and just too write. So plant corn get paid on

602
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 4: your corn, plant cover crest, get paid on your cover crust.

603
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 4: Plant soybeans get paid on your soybeans. That middle piece

604
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 4: did not exist before cover crest, So that's really exciting

605
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 4: for a farmer. What we've done for a farmers, we've said, hey,

606
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 4: look we want to share the risk. So first off,

607
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 4: we're not going to ask you to take the marketing risk.

608
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 4: We're not selling you this seed and hoping that you

609
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 4: have success planting it, growing at harvesting it and also

610
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 4: selling it to a market. We know that's not going

611
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 4: to work. Our customer, truly is the downstream user of

612
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 4: the covercrest crane, right. The farmers are our partners, and

613
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 4: so we contract with that farmer to grow a cover

614
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 4: crest crop and then at harvest we pay the farmer.

615
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 4: So the farmer that gets the farmer super excited, which

616
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 4: again I think moves it away from it being a

617
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 4: marginal opportunity. They know they don't have marketing risk. And

618
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 4: then if you just think about the economics from a

619
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 4: revenue opportunity, it's around two hundred dollars an acre of revenue.

620
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 4: And we do talk about revenue at the top line

621
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 4: because I think it's it's just too difficult. Every farmer

622
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 4: is going to look at their operating spences a little

623
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 4: bit differently. But if we look at it and we say, hey,

624
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 4: it's a piggyback trip on plan, So there's some activity

625
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 4: you're already doing, so that's generally cost neutral. Your first

626
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 4: cost would be that application of fertilizer that I mentioned

627
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 4: in the springtime, and what we're going to do with

628
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 4: the farmer. What we do in our contract is we

629
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 4: actually before that happens, we scout those fields to make

630
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,239
Speaker 4: sure that there's an adequate stand that we think this

631
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 4: is going to be the type of crop we want

632
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 4: to bring to harvest, and if it's not, then we're

633
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:23,360
Speaker 4: not going to have the farmer waste the money to

634
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 4: fertilize it. What we'll do is we tell the farmer, hey,

635
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 4: you know what, we're not going to take this to harvest.

636
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 4: You go ahead terminate this when you field it's the

637
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 4: right time in your system to terminate it, and we're

638
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 4: going to pay you twenty dollars an acre. And so

639
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 4: now the farmer is an essence, gotten a free cover

640
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 4: crop right for participating with us. But if we do

641
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 4: take that to harvest and they do incur that cost,

642
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:44,960
Speaker 4: you know, maybe that's twenty to thirty dollars an acre

643
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 4: for that fertilizer application. That's something that the co op

644
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 4: is doing for them. And then they have harvest and

645
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 4: at harvest. They're getting out there. Like I said, they're

646
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 4: combined and they're doing the harvest activity, which man's maybe

647
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 4: forty fifty sixty dollars an acre. It just depends on

648
00:30:57,440 --> 00:30:59,240
Speaker 4: the farmer. So if you just want to use a

649
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 4: round number of one hundred dollars in operating costs against

650
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 4: two hundred dollars of revenue, you know, it's one hundred

651
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 4: dollars round number of gross profit opportunity potentially for the

652
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 4: farmer before they even plant their first soybeans. So that's

653
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 4: really what gets them pretty excited.

654
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 2: How does a cover cress cost compare with other feedstock?

655
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 3: I would look at it this way.

656
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 4: And what's interesting about this, and I hesitate a little bit, Benji,

657
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 4: is you know, as a guy that's focused on the

658
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 4: upstream component of working with farmers to get this crap

659
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 4: to market, I've been drinking from a fire hose on

660
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 4: all the downstream aspects of these markets that we ultimately

661
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 4: kind of feed into. Cover crests oil is a derivative

662
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 4: of soybean oil. So that's how we would be priced.

663
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 4: We start with grain, right, That's what we produce is

664
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 4: a grain. That grain then gets crushed and two products

665
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 4: are created, the meal and the oil. That's thirty percent

666
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 4: oil content round number. And then the balance is the

667
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 4: meal content, the protein content, and there's some things that

668
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 4: are there's some volume that's lost obviously in that processing

669
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 4: aspect a couple points, but just to keep it easy,

670
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 4: thirty and seventy. And then that meal then component has

671
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 4: a market to be fed to animals. So there's a

672
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 4: premium to the oil value because there's more oil that's

673
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 4: created from cover crests than say, from soybeans. But if

674
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 4: you look at the meal component, our nutritional profiles at

675
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 4: a discount to soybeans. We don't have a strong of

676
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 4: a nutritional profile in terms of amino acids and other

677
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 4: aspects that of soybeans were closer to canola, so we

678
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 4: would trade it a bit of a discount to soybean meal.

679
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 4: End of the day, you've got to put those two

680
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 4: together to think of the total value proposition for cover crest.

681
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 4: So a bit of a premium for on the oil side,

682
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 4: but all the pricing and the costs, you know, the

683
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 4: pricing and ultimately then when we can move back upstream

684
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 4: to farmers based on what we can get paid through

685
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 4: our relationships and whether that's with our current partners Bungy

686
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 4: and Chevron or other partnerships will continue to develop.

687
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 1: So, Mike, tell me about innovation. We know that in

688
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 1: farming it is inherently iterative from one season to the next.

689
00:32:56,360 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 1: But the problems associated with emissions and the real need

690
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 1: for biofuels, and also just the need generally to think

691
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 1: about crops going a growing planet. Is agriculture up to

692
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 1: the challenge and what signs are you seeing that this

693
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 1: is a real moment for agricultural innovation.

694
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 4: I would say wholeheartedly agriculture is up to the challenge.

695
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 4: There's a famous quote that goes, you know, if agriculture

696
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 4: goes wrong, nothing else can go right. So I think

697
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 4: that's the way I think of all this. And there's

698
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 4: just so many aspects to what's happening in the market.

699
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 4: In terms of innovation. There are a lot of activities,

700
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 4: a lot of technologies coming to market where we're able

701
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 4: to grow our crops more efficiently right use of better resources,

702
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 4: whether that's the nitrogen that's used for the fertilizers that

703
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 4: are used to grow our crops. There's technologies that are

704
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 4: pinpointing on how to use fertilizer in a spot application

705
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 4: right instead of broadly right, So more efficient use of fertilizers.

706
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 4: There are new natural fertilizers of me in use, so

707
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 4: we can reduce our alliance on synthetic fertilizers. There's a

708
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 4: big market for biological right. How biologics can be used

709
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:05,120
Speaker 4: and applied so to help with activity that happens in

710
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 4: the soil, creating stronger environment for the growth of microbes

711
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:12,919
Speaker 4: and other activities that help improve not only the health

712
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 4: of the soil, but how efficient a plant can grow.

713
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 4: You know, we have precision add tools around planting more efficiently.

714
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 4: If there's irrigation that's being used on crop land, how

715
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,239
Speaker 4: can the use of that water be done more efficiently.

716
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 4: There's a lot that's going on on the robotic side.

717
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 4: Labor's a big issue in farming, and so how can

718
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:36,320
Speaker 4: we introduce robotics and autonomous vehicles to help farmers continue

719
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 4: to be more efficient on all the land that they're farming.

720
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 4: There's drones, So how can drones be used for not

721
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 4: only a lot of the things that used to be

722
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 4: done by tractors in terms of applying inputs, whether that's

723
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 4: seed or chemistries, but also what can be done in

724
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 4: terms of doing imaging right, there are companies out there

725
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 4: using drones to image a field to the point where

726
00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:59,880
Speaker 4: you could say, hey, there's that specific spot in the

727
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 4: field that looks like it has some kind of fungus

728
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,359
Speaker 4: pressure and the drone can apply a little bit of

729
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:08,359
Speaker 4: fungicide right on the spot. So, you know, I think

730
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:12,759
Speaker 4: there's just this burgeoning ad tech industry and innovation that's

731
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 4: coming that are bringing you know, new tools to farmers

732
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 4: to help them be more efficient user land more wisely

733
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,800
Speaker 4: and then really ultimately would in a lot of ways

734
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:23,920
Speaker 4: help to cut down on some of the emissions that

735
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 4: are coming off of the farm as well.

736
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 1: So everything from gene editing to robots and drone technology

737
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:34,360
Speaker 1: innovation is certainly happening in agriculture. Mike, thank you so

738
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 1: much for joining us today.

739
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 4: Oh it's been great. I appreciate spending time with you,

740
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 4: Dana and you Benji and look forward to further conversations.

741
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 1: And next we hear from Dimple Patel, CEO of Nature Metrics,

742
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 1: who have embraced e DNA to help measure biodiversity at

743
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 1: scale and give governments and businesses the information they need

744
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 1: to make better decisions when comes to nature dimple. Thank

745
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 1: you so much for joining us today to talk about

746
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 1: your business and the pioneering things that you're doing there.

747
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 5: Thank you, thank you for having me.

748
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:14,839
Speaker 1: All Right, well, so let's start at the beginning, and

749
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:17,480
Speaker 1: what we like to do is frame the problem. So

750
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 1: one of the things that you know we globally are

751
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:25,840
Speaker 1: dealing with is biodiversity collapse, and oftentimes, when compared with

752
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 1: the climate crisis, people talk about it as something that

753
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:31,440
Speaker 1: is going to impact human life much more quickly and

754
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,200
Speaker 1: something we may want to be focused on more urgently,

755
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 1: and that there's also a very wide funding gap. Can

756
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,319
Speaker 1: you talk to us a bit about what you see

757
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:42,839
Speaker 1: as the problem and then we can get into how

758
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,400
Speaker 1: nature Metrics is looking to address it.

759
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 5: What I found most startling when I'd started looking into

760
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,760
Speaker 5: biodiversity with actually the data point that over the last

761
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 5: fifty years wildline populations have declined by seventy percent. If

762
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 5: we do that again, so if we continue with this

763
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 5: trend or biodiversity decline in another fifty years, we will

764
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 5: look wiped down ninety three percent of wildlife population. I mean,

765
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 5: that is incredible, And there's fad aboute hundred years, and

766
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:13,320
Speaker 5: I think when you look at economic growth and progress

767
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 5: and everything that we have achieved since the Industrial Revolution,

768
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 5: it has come at such a significant cost. And that's

769
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 5: seven hundred billion dollar funding gap that is just to

770
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:26,279
Speaker 5: halt and reverse biodiversity loss. But I think we often

771
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:29,839
Speaker 5: overlook is a lot of that damage is irrevertible. When

772
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:32,960
Speaker 5: you wipe out a species two extinction that has a

773
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 5: very important part in the food system, you cannot bring

774
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:39,320
Speaker 5: that species back. And actually the knock on impact we

775
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 5: don't necessarily fully understand, but the knock on impacts are

776
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 5: going to have implications for our food systems. It's obviously

777
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 5: going to impact they battle against climate change, but actually

778
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 5: it's going to play out ways that we haven't fully quantified.

779
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 5: And actually that is not just a threat to long

780
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,279
Speaker 5: term economic growth in business performance, but it is a

781
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 5: threat to our survival.

782
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 1: So before we get to how nature metrics fits into

783
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:08,000
Speaker 1: a range of potential solutions for this, can you talk

784
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 1: about why you were drawn to it, Because we know

785
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 1: that this problem exists, but this was a professional pivot

786
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 1: for you, and so why did this end up being

787
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 1: you know what you are now dedicating your life to.

788
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:22,319
Speaker 5: So I am an economist by background. I did an

789
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:25,240
Speaker 5: economic both my undergrad and postgrad, but with a specific

790
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 5: focus on development economics. In my family where farmers and

791
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:33,480
Speaker 5: rural Indian and so for me there was always an

792
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 5: interest in how do we take society and the economy forward?

793
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 5: But I had seen play out the real positive there

794
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 5: in terms of the implication on the environment, and no

795
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:45,880
Speaker 5: I started my career goverment on the training floor, but

796
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 5: very quickly then moved into the entrepreneurial space. So I

797
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:53,239
Speaker 5: founded my first business fifteen years ago that was a

798
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 5: hospitality so physical operation, and since then I've worked cross tech,

799
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 5: data software, really understood the very tools that our disposal,

800
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 5: but what never really went away was how do we

801
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 5: use business to good when we think about with the

802
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 5: challenges that we are facing globally, how do we leverage

803
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 5: all of these tools at our disposal and how do

804
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:16,400
Speaker 5: we align indentives in a way that we can actually

805
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:19,239
Speaker 5: use this data that we have now had data on

806
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:22,840
Speaker 5: everything to drive the decisions that we are making, you know,

807
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 5: the multinational level globally, to give it better long term out.

808
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,399
Speaker 5: And so I've always circled back to where I've first

809
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 5: started my study, but now much better equipped to actually

810
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:34,919
Speaker 5: bring some of that teeth.

811
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 2: Great, Yeah, what is EDNA, Maybe for our listener, if

812
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:40,279
Speaker 2: you can explain a bit more about.

813
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 5: So Indiana or the environmental DNA that refers to the

814
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 5: genetic cases that living organisms leave behind in the environment,

815
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:50,800
Speaker 5: so that is soil, sediment, water, and even air. But

816
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:53,279
Speaker 5: when we analyze these samples, what we're able to do

817
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:57,279
Speaker 5: is actually identify the genetic level individual species that are

818
00:39:57,360 --> 00:39:59,959
Speaker 5: present in an environment. So it's infectively like a stock

819
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:02,400
Speaker 5: pa for nature. And what we've found with the DNA

820
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:04,839
Speaker 5: is so somewhat are super easy to collect. You can

821
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:07,800
Speaker 5: use your cost any habitat, but it's more cost effective, quicker,

822
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:11,279
Speaker 5: and more accurate than alternative methods. So we're able to

823
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:14,920
Speaker 5: detect seventy percent more species than traditional methods. And what

824
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 5: this means is you're starting with an incredibly rich data

825
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 5: set that has a high level of accuracy, It has

826
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:25,200
Speaker 5: a full complexity and biodiversity in nature. But when these

827
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 5: are your base data sets, you're then able to start

828
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 5: to build competente metrics. You're able to make better decisions

829
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:33,279
Speaker 5: in terms of how you should be operating, how you

830
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:36,720
Speaker 5: should be treating your soil, why you should be opening

831
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:39,919
Speaker 5: the entrances to a mining site. And it just means

832
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 5: that when we think about data generation a scale, DNA

833
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:46,160
Speaker 5: is easily deplorable. We've used it in over one hundred

834
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:48,919
Speaker 5: and ten countries, but it gives you a really really

835
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 5: strong foundation upon which to then manipulate that data and

836
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:54,640
Speaker 5: then take the action into decisions that you need a

837
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:55,200
Speaker 5: beck fit.

838
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 2: So I could see how NGOs will will use it

839
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,320
Speaker 2: and so on, but how how would company use it?

840
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:04,799
Speaker 2: I know you have some companies as clients. How would

841
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:06,720
Speaker 2: they using the data and information?

842
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:10,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, so real mixed. So we have some companies that

843
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:14,760
Speaker 5: might be operating in areas of particular content in relation

844
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 5: to specific species. So you can use DNA to identify

845
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:22,480
Speaker 5: threatened or endangered species. You can actually also use it

846
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:26,320
Speaker 5: to detect invasive species, which obviously has a significant impact

847
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 5: both in the agricultural space but also increasingly in courts

848
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:34,840
Speaker 5: and walkways. We have extractive clients who will use environmental

849
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:37,719
Speaker 5: DNA as part of their environmental impact assessment. So there

850
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 5: it forms a much bigger part of kind of regulatory

851
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:44,279
Speaker 5: reporting as well as larger pieces that are coming in

852
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 5: such as TNFD and CSID. And then Finally, if you

853
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 5: are working with land, the quality of your soil is

854
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:55,719
Speaker 5: absolutely acceptable. So what we're now increasingly seeing is much

855
00:41:55,760 --> 00:42:00,640
Speaker 5: more interested in or help from a bacterial perspective, understanding

856
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:03,200
Speaker 5: how they speak to copy on and then also just

857
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 5: building more resilience into our supply chains as well.

858
00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:11,880
Speaker 2: Do you have any examples of in organization taking these

859
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:16,360
Speaker 2: data and then creating a positive impact on biodiversity.

860
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 5: So if I take the agricultural space for example, what

861
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:22,359
Speaker 5: we have done, particularly if the last kind of clot

862
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 5: to eighteen months, is we've been working with client to

863
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:28,279
Speaker 5: have multiple farms as part of their supply chain, and

864
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:31,719
Speaker 5: they're trying to understand the impact of different fertilizers and

865
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 5: treatments on the soil across these farms, not just to

866
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:37,920
Speaker 5: kind of inform their own operation, but to work with

867
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 5: these small landowners and feed these insights to them in

868
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:43,440
Speaker 5: terms of how they can then put the quality of

869
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:46,239
Speaker 5: the soil going forward. And what's been really fantastic about

870
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:48,839
Speaker 5: the technology, but also through the platform here, we're able

871
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:51,479
Speaker 5: to demonstrate that change over time, We're able to link

872
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 5: that changes in bacterial composition to different types of fertilizers

873
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 5: and treat so again there's a link from you know,

874
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:02,560
Speaker 5: the end us right the way through to the platform

875
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:04,640
Speaker 5: and being able to open up that data to admitted

876
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 5: stakeholders as need to have access to it.

877
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:10,239
Speaker 2: Do you feel that some of the latest regulation here

878
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:14,840
Speaker 2: in Europe, you know, the Corporate Sustainability Reporting Directive and

879
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:20,000
Speaker 2: some of the momentum around TNFD is increasing momentum on

880
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:21,800
Speaker 2: action in this area.

881
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:23,960
Speaker 5: So what we have seen is the first step of

882
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:27,719
Speaker 5: the back of the TNFD launch in particular last September

883
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 5: was just a huge beast in terms of awareness around nature.

884
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:36,160
Speaker 5: So our organization to have previously talked about sustainability as

885
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:39,160
Speaker 5: a carbon dotport, waste and water now looking at native

886
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 5: for the first time and thinking, I actually don't know

887
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 5: what I'm fifty doing here, they even know how I

888
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 5: can measure it, but I know that somebody is going

889
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:48,160
Speaker 5: to hold me to account at some point in the future,

890
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:49,840
Speaker 5: so I need to start getting on top of this.

891
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 5: And so that was really fantastic because it has really

892
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:56,319
Speaker 5: pushed nature up the order prioritization in terms of out

893
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 5: sustainability agenda. I think what is really interesting about CSI

894
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:02,880
Speaker 5: in particular is that is the first piece of nature

895
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 5: related and the legislation that it's going to have penalties

896
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 5: attached to it. So this is not an optional framework

897
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:12,759
Speaker 5: for reporting. It is compulsory and there are actually some

898
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 5: parts of Europe I think that are actually going to

899
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:19,239
Speaker 5: be holding directors of companies liable for not meeting the

900
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:23,240
Speaker 5: requirements of CSUDY reporting. So in becoming what more heavy handed,

901
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:26,160
Speaker 5: I think given the time frame that we are looking

902
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:29,760
Speaker 5: at in terms of biodiversity decline, it does require slightly

903
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 5: more heavy handed approach to make sure that action is

904
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 5: accelerated as much as possible. But then outside of that,

905
00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 5: I think both CSUDY, but particularly the team at TNF

906
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:41,080
Speaker 5: Theater doing a fantastic job in terms of actually breaking

907
00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:44,400
Speaker 5: down what they mean around you know, terms such as

908
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 5: nature positive into smaller steps. They make them a bit

909
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:49,840
Speaker 5: more didicial for companies that haven't looked at this perform.

910
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:54,320
Speaker 5: They're providing toolkit, lots and lots of educational material, webinars,

911
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:56,680
Speaker 5: et cetera. I think, you know, there is a huge

912
00:44:56,840 --> 00:45:01,880
Speaker 5: educational component to where nature and biodiversity sit within an

913
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:07,360
Speaker 5: organization's strategy and sustainability policies. Even though actually band identity

914
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 5: is one of the first things that we learn as children,

915
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 5: so I think it does have a big role to play.

916
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 5: A lot of it will come down to the implementation.

917
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 5: So when we talk about makes day to day is

918
00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 5: used for reporting the accuracy and the quality of the

919
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:23,400
Speaker 5: data that is being reported, because I think what is

920
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 5: always a concern with regulation is that they can become

921
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:28,919
Speaker 5: quite watered down and actually the quality of the data

922
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 5: being comfortable of a tip box out side. But I'm

923
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 5: confident that there are enough people that they really want

924
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:36,440
Speaker 5: to see this have an impact that we will kind

925
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 5: of post date quality up. There is a quality.

926
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:41,880
Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit more about the upskilling

927
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:44,279
Speaker 1: aspect of it, because you know, what I'm thinking is

928
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:46,960
Speaker 1: that you change happens slowly and then very fast. And

929
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:51,040
Speaker 1: I think about the initial responsible investors that were literally

930
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:54,000
Speaker 1: decades ago looking at their irresponsible investing strategy, and then

931
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:57,040
Speaker 1: there was this just huge amount of attention on sustainable

932
00:45:57,080 --> 00:45:59,920
Speaker 1: finance in ESG reporting. To your point, we are interned

933
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 1: reduced to biodiversity and I certainly remember talking about species

934
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:07,400
Speaker 1: extinction when I was a child and endangered species and

935
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:10,120
Speaker 1: now very much we're getting up to speed on it

936
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:13,600
Speaker 1: quite quickly, and it's necessary for companies to think about

937
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:17,799
Speaker 1: it from a metrics standpoint, how long do you think

938
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:21,040
Speaker 1: this upskilling process will take and what is happening in

939
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:22,960
Speaker 1: practice and how is that happening.

940
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:25,200
Speaker 5: So I think if we go back to what we

941
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:29,000
Speaker 5: were saying earlier about alignment of incentives and how we

942
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:32,360
Speaker 5: dry decision making an action, you know, anybody running a

943
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:35,919
Speaker 5: company is optimizing for both of their share price growth

944
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:38,160
Speaker 5: of their companies, and so what you end up with

945
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:41,960
Speaker 5: there is an inevitable link between behavior and incentives and

946
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:45,320
Speaker 5: capital and listen where we are start to change. So

947
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 5: when you talk about with probable investment, a number of

948
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:53,440
Speaker 5: investor are now starting biodiversity as an indication of some

949
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:55,799
Speaker 5: of their EESG markets that they look at when they're

950
00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:59,000
Speaker 5: assessing an investment BMP, who are on our board having

951
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:01,880
Speaker 5: chief a biodavert policy where they're going to be assessing

952
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:05,399
Speaker 5: their portfolio against the biodiversity credentials in twenty twenty five

953
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 5: as well. I think one of the challenges historically has

954
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:11,400
Speaker 5: been the fact that biodiversity has been difficult to measure scales,

955
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:13,759
Speaker 5: so the data itself has been Luckily that is not

956
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:16,840
Speaker 5: the case anymore, so our focus really is on getting

957
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:19,880
Speaker 5: that data into the right how do we use it

958
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:22,600
Speaker 5: to influence policy, How do we use it to influence

959
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:28,040
Speaker 5: where capital is flowing, where we are providing investment, which

960
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:31,480
Speaker 5: projects are being given the opportunity to get off the ground.

961
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 5: And so I think working with financial institutions and government

962
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:38,719
Speaker 5: is a really really important part of making sure that

963
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:41,320
Speaker 5: we have the incentives in place to make sure that

964
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:44,839
Speaker 5: biodiversity is not overlooked. So it's coming together. I think

965
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:48,800
Speaker 5: we are still very much at that danger explaining that

966
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:52,160
Speaker 5: the data exists, and the good quality data exists, so

967
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 5: you don't need to use a proxy for what is

968
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:57,279
Speaker 5: happening on the ground. We can genuinely measure what is

969
00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:00,080
Speaker 5: happening on the ground, because whenever you are deploying and

970
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:02,879
Speaker 5: anti capitals, you do want to have autiful and very

971
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:05,400
Speaker 5: viable data that sits behind them, which is something that

972
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:08,360
Speaker 5: we can do with DNA. So then there is a

973
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:11,040
Speaker 5: big push. I think we have somewhere to go, which

974
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 5: is why I think regulation from an awareness perspective is

975
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:16,319
Speaker 5: going to be very very important. But then a lot

976
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:19,640
Speaker 5: of it is going to be actually helpful organizations taking

977
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:22,560
Speaker 5: their initial samples, getting these kits out into the field,

978
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 5: starting to generate their own data so that they can

979
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:28,080
Speaker 5: see how that data is then needed to cost their

980
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:30,640
Speaker 5: organizations in that decision making as well. But I do

981
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:33,840
Speaker 5: think financed intitutions and investors are going to have an

982
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:37,080
Speaker 5: important part play in terms of accelerating that option as

983
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:37,920
Speaker 5: well well.

984
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:40,080
Speaker 1: I think that's a perfect place to stop, because we

985
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:42,919
Speaker 1: want to stop on an optimistic note and on a high.

986
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:45,080
Speaker 1: So thank you very much for coming on the show

987
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:47,719
Speaker 1: and talking about nature metric solution and how important it

988
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:51,640
Speaker 1: is for us to be rigorously approaching biodiversity from a

989
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 1: data standpoint so that we can make progress in this space,

990
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:56,600
Speaker 1: and for sharing your optimism.

991
00:48:57,080 --> 00:48:57,360
Speaker 5: Thank you.

992
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:09,759
Speaker 1: Today's episode of Switched On was produced by Cam Gray

993
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:13,640
Speaker 1: with production assistance from Kamala Shelling. Bloomberg NIF is a

994
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:16,800
Speaker 1: service provided by Bloomberg Finance LP and its affiliates. This

995
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 1: recording does not constitute, nor should it be construed, as

996
00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:23,360
Speaker 1: investment in vice, investment recommendations, or a recommendation as to

997
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:26,239
Speaker 1: an investment or other strategy. Bloomberg ANIFF should not be

998
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 1: considered as information sufficient upon which to base an investment decision.

999
00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:33,200
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1000
00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:36,920
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1001
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1002
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