1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Holly 3 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 1: Fry and I'm Tracy V. Wilson, and we talked about 4 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 1: what's believed to be the first cookbook in the Western world. 5 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 1: This week, ded A Coquinadia epicious is easier to say. Um. 6 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: I Also I like how when you listen to Latin 7 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 1: pronunciations by people living in Italy, it does not sound 8 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 1: nearly the same way that a lot of other folks 9 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: would say them. No, and also usually sounds more beautiful. Um. 10 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 1: This one was super fun, and I kept writing little 11 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 1: notes to myself about stuff I wanted to talk about 12 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 1: one thing that I thought was really interesting. We talked 13 00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 1: a lot about Wellings translation, since that was the first 14 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 1: English translation of this collection, and I have to say 15 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 1: it's it's quite fun to me because he mentions like, no, 16 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:10,120 Speaker 1: we have to be really unbiased and really clear. But 17 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 1: like any writer or any human, he has bias that 18 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:17,320 Speaker 1: appears in the text um. And he kind of clearly 19 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 1: has a great deal of reverence and appreciation for these 20 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:25,960 Speaker 1: classical ways of cooking. Uh. And he writes about how 21 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 1: people mistreat their food these days. Um, and he he 22 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 1: feels like when he was writing this, which again was 23 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:37,679 Speaker 1: in the mid nineteen twenties, he makes the case that 24 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 1: we're eventually going to return back to a lot of 25 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:43,759 Speaker 1: these Roman techniques of cooking because of the ways that 26 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 1: agriculture is going to change due to over consumption and whatnot. 27 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: So it's kind of an interesting one to get his 28 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 1: editorial asides included in the in the uh, the analysis 29 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 1: because there's a translation of the text. But like most 30 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 1: books that you will read about this cook book, now 31 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: there's a huge section that's really like an analysis and 32 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: discussion of what it contains, in what it means, and 33 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 1: he occasionally drops his editorial thoughts, Oh sure, which is 34 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: pretty funny. This also always I always talk about this, 35 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 1: thinking about how our time will be perceived in the 36 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 1: future and wondering if there will one day be someone 37 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: trying to pick apart the Bob's Burger's Cookbook and wonder 38 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 1: how important it was culturally. Oh yeah, which came to 39 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 1: mind because it's one I'm using a lot right now. 40 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 1: I've been, I've been, uh, I have watched my way 41 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:38,919 Speaker 1: through several of your cooking You've done I think two 42 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:41,079 Speaker 1: cookbooks that I have kept an eye on the Star 43 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 1: Wars one and the Bob's Burgers one, and I'm always 44 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 1: like incredibly fascinated by what the recipe is, whether it 45 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 1: turned out deliciously like, whether it has been added into 46 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: your your households, my regular rotation rotation well, and now 47 00:02:56,919 --> 00:02:59,359 Speaker 1: I'm also doing there's another Star Wars one. I did, 48 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:03,119 Speaker 1: the gal Lexi's Edge one, all of those many which 49 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: are really really like regulars at our house now. But 50 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 1: there's also a Star Wars baking book that came out 51 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 1: just last month, and I have really enjoyed that when 52 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 1: it has some really good stuff. I feel like in 53 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:18,079 Speaker 1: the in the realm of sort of branded novelty cookbooks, 54 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 1: of which which are things that I have always loved, 55 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:23,639 Speaker 1: they have really stepped up across the board. It used 56 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 1: to be like they're very cutey recipes and it usually 57 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:29,440 Speaker 1: involved like combining a lot of prefab ingredients. But now 58 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 1: they're like, no, let's teach you how to make a 59 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: cake like from scratch, which I love. It's great, But yes, 60 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 1: I wonder if one day they'll be like everyone put 61 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: Tika masala on their burgers. It's like no, no, no, no, no, no, no, 62 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:47,240 Speaker 1: that's not that's not common at all. There is also 63 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 1: a there are a lot of people if you wanna 64 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: just kind of cruise around, you can do that on 65 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 1: Pinterest who sponsored the episode, or on you know, any 66 00:03:55,600 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 1: search engine if you look for anything that's like Roman 67 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 1: cooking or cook like a Roman. There are a lot 68 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 1: of people who have either sort of brought some of 69 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: these recipes up to date. Or there's a YouTube channel 70 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 1: that you you also stumbled across, which is called a 71 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 1: Taste of the Ancient World, and it's um hosted by 72 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 1: this woman named Sally Grainger who is a historian and 73 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 1: a cook, and she's kind of cooking through some of 74 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 1: these recipes. There was an interesting moment though, because she 75 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 1: mentions that it's very important in her project to follow 76 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 1: these recipes to the letter as much as possible, knowing 77 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 1: obviously you have to like interpret things like measures, which 78 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 1: you don't get. That jumped out to me because several 79 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:45,279 Speaker 1: of the translations that I had read in their commentaries 80 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 1: kind of say exactly the opposite of like you can't 81 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 1: do this as a literal read like there's no way 82 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 1: to do it. This is more like in the spirit 83 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 1: of this recipe sure, which I found very interesting, and uh, 84 00:04:57,640 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 1: you know, she also mentioned several times that like they're 85 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 1: things that you have to make from scratch, they're not 86 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 1: just ingredients that would be available. One of her episodes 87 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 1: is making a cheesecake and you basically have to make 88 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:11,280 Speaker 1: the cheese yourself first, and that kind of brings up 89 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:13,600 Speaker 1: that that thing that I touched on very briefly about 90 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 1: like there would have been enslaved labor to do those 91 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 1: those hard preparation pieces, so it's very easy to be like, oh, yes, 92 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: make a cheese and then do this and then it 93 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: will be delicious. I'm also going to tell you a 94 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 1: story of my own hilarious foolishness. I'm excited in reading 95 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 1: that description of Trimalchio's table. I'm so embarrassed, but it's 96 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:43,720 Speaker 1: also so funny that I'm delighted at my own foolishness. Um, 97 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:49,280 Speaker 1: there's like a mention in it of dormice. It didn't 98 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 1: occur to me that people ate dormic. So I was 99 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 1: reading it dormous and I'm like, what is this ingredient? 100 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:57,599 Speaker 1: And I was like trying to look it up and 101 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 1: I was like, oh no, just tiny little dormice that 102 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 1: seems like a lot of work. I had a similar 103 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:10,799 Speaker 1: experience the first time I read through your outline, because 104 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 1: I I feel like, if it had said dormouse singular, right, 105 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:21,040 Speaker 1: I would have clocked it totally, but I it doesn't. 106 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 1: It was plural, and my brain was like, what is it? Dormity? 107 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 1: I feel somewhat better now, Wing We both landed at this. 108 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 1: What is this? What is this new thing? I didn't know? Yeah? Yeah, 109 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 1: I also I And then when I heard you say 110 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 1: it out loud as we were recording, I was like, 111 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:45,719 Speaker 1: all right, dormouse, Yeah, I know what a dormouse is. Yeah, well, 112 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 1: and it's um. I mean, to be fair, there are, 113 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: like we said, some other ingredients that you've got to 114 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 1: figure out what they are or find someone else who 115 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 1: has figured out what they are, which is really the 116 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 1: case for me. So in that case, I thought, oh, 117 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 1: I don't I don't know what this is. I didn't know. 118 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:03,720 Speaker 1: This is another one that people are probably gonna be like, 119 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:08,040 Speaker 1: um dang dong. People have been using that forever yeah lovage, 120 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 1: Oh yeah yeah as an herb never never on my radar. 121 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 1: So I'm like, what is that? And then I'm like, oh, 122 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: it's actually quite commonly. Yeah, that's definitely an herb. I 123 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 1: would not say that's an herb I have in the 124 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 1: cabinet right now, but it's definitely, I think, a thing 125 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:31,239 Speaker 1: I know of and uh have seen growing in herb 126 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 1: gardens and stuff. Yeah, I mean there are plenty of 127 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 1: herbs that I don't know, but I'm sure. Um. I 128 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 1: had a conversation recently with a friend of mine who 129 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 1: is a very smart person, who did not know that 130 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 1: savory was also an herb, like a thing like, No, 131 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: savory is a descriptor and I'm like, no, but it's 132 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: also also an actual ingredient. It's like, oh uh. Even 133 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 1: in modern cooking, we're all still learning about things some 134 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 1: people like I saw some Twitter threads over the weekend 135 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 1: that we're about how in a lot of the world, 136 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 1: cuisine involves layering different flavors over one another to make 137 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 1: these like really nuanced, interesting combinations of flavors. But in 138 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 1: Europe the trend became too to combine like flavors because 139 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 1: food should taste like itself. Um. And I was like, wow, 140 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 1: I am intrigued by this idea and now want to 141 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 1: go research it more. All I can think of is 142 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: Remi and Ratatui going no, now take a bite of 143 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 1: this with this, I mean, anyone can cook, right, And 144 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: the reasoning for it in in the Twitter threads that 145 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:50,680 Speaker 1: I read was that when spices became more widely available, 146 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 1: it was no longer like the exclusive domain of rich 147 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 1: people to be able to have spiced food, and like 148 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: that drove this trend. I have not been able to 149 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 1: confirm that yet, but I was like, this also, very 150 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 1: interesting idea. It's interesting that you mentioned that because that 151 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 1: is another thing that comes up in that Velling translation, 152 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 1: because his thing was like, note in this how at 153 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 1: this time, you know, they're grinding up their pepper and 154 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 1: everything fresh, and they're integrating that with the cooking. And 155 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 1: he was like, now, today it's very common to like 156 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:30,320 Speaker 1: cook a thing and then season it, and it's never 157 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 1: really is delicious, and that's why we end up throwing 158 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 1: gravy and sauce all over everything because we don't actually 159 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 1: know what any meat tastes like, you know, when it's 160 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 1: actually roasted properly. Which is interesting that that that ties 161 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 1: into a thing you have been thinking about as well. Yeah, yeah, 162 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:51,680 Speaker 1: I really want to make that weird p lasagna. Yeah, 163 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 1: I mean, that sounds really interesting to me. I also 164 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 1: really like peas, so I historically am not the peas 165 00:09:57,920 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 1: biggest fan. I don't mind them, but they're just not 166 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,960 Speaker 1: like a thing I would naturally gravitate to. And sometimes 167 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:05,440 Speaker 1: I'll leave them out of a recipe and go like 168 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:11,200 Speaker 1: lant peas um. But somehow I don't know. Casserole of 169 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:16,200 Speaker 1: layers of peas with bacon and leaks and basically whatever 170 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:18,839 Speaker 1: you have on hand and the ground up pine nuts 171 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:21,960 Speaker 1: with all of what that sounds like a beautiful young thing, 172 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: and that white sauce sounds quite good. That might happen 173 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 1: at my house. But then it also makes you think, right, 174 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: this is what I love about cookbooks. And I I 175 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 1: didn't know that I loved cooking for a long time 176 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 1: in my life because my mom was one of those 177 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 1: people that like the kitchen was her domain and get 178 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 1: out of my way and don't bug me in the kitchen. Um, 179 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 1: So I didn't get to do a lot of cooking 180 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 1: when I was younger, and then when I really started 181 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:49,320 Speaker 1: to and discovered I loved it. One of the things 182 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:51,440 Speaker 1: that I love about cookbooks for me is how they 183 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 1: kind of unlock your imagination where You're like, oh, I 184 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 1: could do this as written, but what if instead of peas, 185 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 1: I used chick peas, or you know, like anything, anything, 186 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 1: any subout that you do want a recipe. That's what 187 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:07,720 Speaker 1: kind of gets me excited always when I'm looking at recipes, 188 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: want I want to make this as written, and then 189 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 1: I want to make a crazy version, yes, other stuff 190 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 1: that's not mentioned here and see what happens, because that's 191 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:21,439 Speaker 1: just fun. That's that's what makes kitchens fun for me. Creativity. 192 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: Let's go eat, let's do. This week, we talked about 193 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 1: Johann's Truancy. Who what a story that is? Yeah, I 194 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:38,079 Speaker 1: um so. In your in your introduction at the top 195 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:40,080 Speaker 1: of the episode, you talk about how this story is 196 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:45,840 Speaker 1: a lot better known where it actually happened. And it 197 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:48,319 Speaker 1: cracked me up a little bit because there have been 198 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 1: various times that I've been, you know, reading about some 199 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:57,320 Speaker 1: historical figure who is not from the US and whose lives, 200 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: whose life and actions like aren't that directly connected to 201 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:06,440 Speaker 1: US history in an obvious way. Uh. And sometimes you 202 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 1: know something that was written in let's just say that 203 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 1: UK will kind of be like, well, as everyone knows 204 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 1: he did this, this and this and I'm like, I 205 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 1: don't know that, right. Yeah, there is actually UM a 206 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 1: medical center in Germany called Struency House, and they talk 207 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:32,200 Speaker 1: about Johann Struency on one of their their websites pages 208 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:35,560 Speaker 1: and and how they try to uphold his ideals in 209 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 1: terms of, you know, treating people with from all strata 210 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:44,680 Speaker 1: of the social spheres with care, with equal care. And 211 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 1: so he clearly you know, has has name recognition in 212 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 1: a way that I don't think he gets over here 213 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 1: at all, because, like I said, I had to really 214 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 1: like you find very abbreviated versions of his life story 215 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 1: in English, but like any of are really like in 216 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 1: depth stuff, you either have to go to UM a 217 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 1: scholarly journal that has translated part of it, or like 218 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 1: I did in some of it, like I got English 219 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 1: translations that were done decades and decades and decades ago 220 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 1: for some of them. UM. So it's a little bit 221 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 1: a little bit trickier, and it explains why it might 222 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:25,320 Speaker 1: be harder for less likely for people in the U 223 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:29,560 Speaker 1: S or in primarily English speaking countries to know about him. UM. 224 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 1: There have been a number of fictional pieces written, and 225 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 1: there's a film I think from twelve that's in Danish 226 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:44,439 Speaker 1: um about him. But again that's not necessarily going to 227 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 1: be what most US audiences are are engaged with. It's 228 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:53,680 Speaker 1: it's such a good story though, right like in my head. 229 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 1: There's a version of this story that stars a very 230 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 1: young Mad's Michelson and it's quite appealing. Okay, I think 231 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: he's in the Danish movie, but I and I don't 232 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 1: even know which character he plays. I haven't seen that movie. Um, 233 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 1: but I want him to be in everything anyway, and 234 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 1: he's darling, so I, as I was doing my research, 235 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 1: I just pictured him. The one thing that really jumped 236 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: out at me, and we didn't really focus on it 237 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 1: a lot. We mentioned that, um, the Queen was quite 238 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 1: young when she died, but struancy was as well. He 239 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 1: was in his thirties. He wasn't you know when you 240 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 1: think about someone who has kind of risen and seized 241 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 1: all this power in in my head anyway, I tend 242 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 1: to think of, uh, someone a little bit older who 243 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 1: knows the world well enough to really execute on their ambitions. 244 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 1: Men A was quite young, uh, Which It's that's another 245 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 1: one of those things where I go, oh, if he 246 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 1: hadn't gotten himself into trouble, he had just been a 247 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 1: doctor and advocated for reform in all of these things 248 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 1: that that, Like I said, his ideals seemed to be 249 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 1: pretty good it. I'm sure there were problematic aspects of 250 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 1: it that I'm not privy too or haven't examined. Um, Like, well, 251 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 1: if he had just become a statesman and had advocated 252 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 1: for reform in those areas, could he have done a 253 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: lot more with his life? Yeah, than the way it 254 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 1: played out where a lot of his reforms initially got 255 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 1: rolled back anyway, I don't know, is the answer. That's 256 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 1: that's Milan Kundera's unbearable likeness of being there's only one 257 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: way through and you don't know the other possibilities. Yeah, 258 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 1: So my weird thought process during all of this, UM, 259 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 1: I have been watching the the c W TV show 260 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 1: Rain on Netflix. It has become the show that I 261 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 1: watched while I'm on the exercise bike, and I kind 262 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 1: of describe it as Mary Queen of Scott's fan fiction, 263 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 1: because Mary Queen of Scott's is a central character, but 264 00:15:55,480 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 1: a lot of the plot has no basis in reality whatsoever. 265 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 1: And toward the end of the series, uh at, one 266 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 1: of the other central characters UM is Charles the ninth 267 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 1: of France and the depiction of Charles the ninth of 268 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: France really reads a lot like what we just talked 269 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 1: about today. I was like, hmmmm, this is interesting to 270 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:27,040 Speaker 1: me how it just seems like a totally different royals 271 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 1: personality was picked up and put onto here. That's probably 272 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 1: not what happened, but right, but you can cherry pick 273 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 1: the most interesting parts, right um of a completely different 274 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 1: monarch shower. I mean, at that point it's fictionalized. It's fictionalized. 275 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 1: Really really interesting to me how much medical scholarship has 276 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 1: been devoted to trying to figure out what was really 277 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 1: happening with Christian the seventh based on Struancy's writing. You know, 278 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 1: there there is a big case made both for schizophrenia 279 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 1: and for porphyria, depending on which scholar is looking at it. 280 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:17,160 Speaker 1: They're certainly valid ways that they landed each of those. 281 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not a doctor, so I would not 282 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 1: pretend like, yes, this one is the bet. I don't know, um, 283 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 1: but I see where like the symptomatic behavior lines up 284 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 1: with a list of symptoms that we would recognize today. 285 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:32,160 Speaker 1: It's a little bit of a weird space because normally 286 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:34,640 Speaker 1: you and I always talk about like we wouldn't try 287 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: to um diagnose anybody historically because they're dead, they cannot 288 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:43,439 Speaker 1: be examined, and we are not doctors and we are 289 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 1: not doctors. Um. And this is a unique, a particularly 290 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:49,680 Speaker 1: unique situation because I mean, we're not doing it, but 291 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: but for medical scholars to do it, they are working 292 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:58,639 Speaker 1: with source documentation from his doctor um, which makes it 293 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 1: kind of interesting. Another thing that I didn't mention in 294 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 1: the main episode because I couldn't find One of the 295 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 1: things that's mentioned is a verification of it, was that 296 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 1: Christian the Seven himself did not think of Struancy as 297 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: a bad person at all. Um. And there are even 298 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:22,639 Speaker 1: some indications that he had wished that he could have 299 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 1: saved Struancy and his his close friend that was also beheaded. 300 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 1: Of course, no one was really listening to what he wanted, 301 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:33,120 Speaker 1: even in his moments of lucidity, so that didn't help 302 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:38,920 Speaker 1: at all. But um, it's a what a tangle humans. 303 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:42,880 Speaker 1: M hmmm mm hm hm. I feel like we should 304 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:44,400 Speaker 1: figure out a way to end this on a more 305 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 1: up thing. Um. I'm trying to think of a more 306 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 1: up thing. Do I know him more? Oh? Yes, so 307 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 1: I was right? M A royal Affair is the Danish 308 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 1: historical drama that was made in It does star Men's Michelson, 309 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:08,879 Speaker 1: which everything should, um, just as a rule of thumb, 310 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 1: everything should star Man's Michelson. So I didn't pull that 311 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 1: right out of thin air. And he does play struncy. 312 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:18,639 Speaker 1: But even so he would have been I think, and 313 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 1: this is no shade to Man's Michelson a little old 314 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:24,640 Speaker 1: for the role at that point, because he was born 315 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:30,200 Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty five, which means he's how much. Yeah, 316 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:32,480 Speaker 1: he would have been a little old. Um Again, it's 317 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:35,440 Speaker 1: Ma's Michelson. Play whoever you want. When everyone that's fine, 318 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 1: It's just fine. There's a fun place to wrap it up. 319 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 1: Everybody think about MAT's Michelson. Uh. If this is your 320 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:48,639 Speaker 1: actual weekend coming up, we hope that it is a 321 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:51,120 Speaker 1: good one and that you get some rest and recuperation 322 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:53,360 Speaker 1: and maybe watch good films with MAT's Michelson in them. 323 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 1: If this is not your weekend per saying you're working, 324 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 1: we hope that goes as smoothly as possible, that people 325 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 1: are as nice to you as possible, uh, and that 326 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 1: you make it through without too much stress. Otherwise we 327 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 1: will see you all back here tomorrow with a classic episode, 328 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 1: and then on Monday we'll be here again with brand 329 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:18,440 Speaker 1: new stuff. Stuff you Missed in History Class is a 330 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:21,679 Speaker 1: production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts from I 331 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 332 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.