WEBVTT - Behind the Scenes Minis: Alger and Carlo

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class, a production

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<v Speaker 1>of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Holly Frye and

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<v Speaker 1>I'm tray cy V Wilson. And we talked about Alger

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<v Speaker 1>Hisss this week. Uh huh, who is fascinating to me?

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<v Speaker 1>And as I said at the top of that, like

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<v Speaker 1>I grew up hearing about him all the time. I

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<v Speaker 1>don't know why. There were two things that I promised

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<v Speaker 1>I would talk about. Well, I promised one and I

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<v Speaker 1>promised myself the other. The verse was the typewriter. So

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<v Speaker 1>the case that his lawyers tried to make to counter

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<v Speaker 1>that evidence that had been introduced that that typewriter was

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<v Speaker 1>the typewriter in their home was intense. They did a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of work It actually went on for a couple

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<v Speaker 1>of years even after he had been incarcerated, where they

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<v Speaker 1>actually had like an expert put together essentially a new

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<v Speaker 1>typewriter that could mimic exactly what his is home typewriter

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<v Speaker 1>did to show like people could totally do this. They

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<v Speaker 1>could have built their own copycat typewriter. And there was

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<v Speaker 1>also like work done where they were trying to make

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<v Speaker 1>the case that potentially the typewriter that was produced, wasn't

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<v Speaker 1>even hit as part of evidence in court, wasn't even

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<v Speaker 1>Hiss's typewriter, but one that had been altered to look

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<v Speaker 1>like his typewriter. Like, they made a lot of efforts

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<v Speaker 1>to show the ways that those documents could have been

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<v Speaker 1>forged and made to look like they came from the

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<v Speaker 1>Hiss home. Sure, but ultimately the judge that heard those

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<v Speaker 1>appeals was like, I just don't think Whittaker Chambers had

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<v Speaker 1>the time and energy to do something like this, which

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<v Speaker 1>is kind of interesting. I just find that fascinating. Like,

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<v Speaker 1>I know what we'll do. We're going to hire a

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<v Speaker 1>typewriter forgery expert to build a new typewriter. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>it's really interesting. I'm not even dogging it. I just

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<v Speaker 1>think it's fascinating. Yeah, the other thing I was going

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<v Speaker 1>to mention was his is not divorce. So apparently several

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<v Speaker 1>years after he got out of prison, he asked his

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<v Speaker 1>wife Priscilla for a divorce and she said no, And

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<v Speaker 1>it seems like he may have met his second wife

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<v Speaker 1>already at that point. I don't have substantiation on this,

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<v Speaker 1>which is why I didn't want to put in the episode,

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<v Speaker 1>but it's interesting and that he had wanted to marry

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<v Speaker 1>her then, but he couldn't because his wife wouldn't give

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<v Speaker 1>him a divorce, and so then they just had to wait,

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<v Speaker 1>and then when Priscilla died, they got married shortly thereafter.

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<v Speaker 1>Just kind of interesting. Yeah, there's a part of me.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not generally a conspiracy theorist, but there is part

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<v Speaker 1>of me that's like, he did seem to want to

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<v Speaker 1>unearth so much stuff. That part of me is like

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<v Speaker 1>he might have been innocent. Mm hmm, Like I can't imagine,

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<v Speaker 1>you know what I mean. It's one of those cases

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<v Speaker 1>where if you are not innocent, why would you want

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<v Speaker 1>to work so hard to have every possible document released? Right?

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<v Speaker 1>But one thing that several historians have pointed out is that,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, when like his lawyers, for example, would get

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<v Speaker 1>information from documents, they would of course kind of cherry

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<v Speaker 1>pick what made his look best. So it's like it's

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<v Speaker 1>an interesting game of I don't know, I don't know,

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<v Speaker 1>well we ever know conclusively? Probably not. Most people accept

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<v Speaker 1>he was a spy of some sort, right, but I

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<v Speaker 1>don't spies. Are you generally into Cold War history stuff?

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<v Speaker 1>We haven't talked about it a lot on the show

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<v Speaker 1>because it's so recent that really, in terms of like

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<v Speaker 1>fictional depictions, I can find a good spy story really

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<v Speaker 1>interesting and compelling. But I feel like having been born

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<v Speaker 1>when I was born and kind of growing up in

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<v Speaker 1>the very tail end of you know, the existence of

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<v Speaker 1>the USSR and all of all of that, like we

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<v Speaker 1>were not in the thick of the Cold War. Really,

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<v Speaker 1>I would say that the things were a lot more

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<v Speaker 1>heightened in terms of that earlier. But like I do

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<v Speaker 1>remember sort of the looming fear of nuclear war when

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<v Speaker 1>I was a kid, and it makes it less of

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<v Speaker 1>a draw for me, Right, I think probably having a

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<v Speaker 1>dad that was in the military shifted that for me

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<v Speaker 1>a little. Yeah, it felt very much like that was

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<v Speaker 1>always part of our households discussions. Yeah, yeah, which is

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<v Speaker 1>kind of fascinating. Yeah. I love a good inconclusive story,

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<v Speaker 1>though I do. I love a history mystery. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>on the one hand, like I just it's interesting to

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<v Speaker 1>know that there there was obviously some group of people

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<v Speaker 1>high up in our government that was communicating with the Soviets, right,

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<v Speaker 1>and I'm sure the same was going on in reverse. Right.

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<v Speaker 1>It's always just fascinating to me like that aspect of

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<v Speaker 1>human nature where it's like you are in a seed

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<v Speaker 1>of power and success and something about it makes you

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<v Speaker 1>want to do dangerous stuff and like normalize dangerous stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm such a whimp. I want no part of dangerous things.

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<v Speaker 1>So I'm always like, what is that headspace? Right? What

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<v Speaker 1>is it like, Like how do you go about your

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<v Speaker 1>day to day life. Does it constantly something you're thinking

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<v Speaker 1>about or is it just like compartmentalized in a way

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<v Speaker 1>that you don't give it a lot of thought beyond

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<v Speaker 1>like the needs of the things you're doing in terms

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<v Speaker 1>of logistics. I'm just I'm fascinated by it anyway. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>which is why I wanted to do this one. Alger hisss.

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<v Speaker 1>This is our on ramp to Halloween things. I promise

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<v Speaker 1>Halloween stuff is coming, but this at least had pumpkins

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<v Speaker 1>in it. Yeah. When I got the outline from you,

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<v Speaker 1>I was like, I'm surprised this is not more Halloween themed.

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<v Speaker 1>I read through it was like, oh, there's a ghost

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<v Speaker 1>story article at a pumpkin Well, and I will tell

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<v Speaker 1>you that part of that is accidental because I had

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<v Speaker 1>looked at our calendar a while back and calculated out

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<v Speaker 1>how many episodes I had to have ready that were

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<v Speaker 1>not Halloween before we got to October. I mean, I

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<v Speaker 1>would talk about Halloween stuff year round, you know, but

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<v Speaker 1>that's not really appropriate for most people I had. I

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<v Speaker 1>have talked to several people lately who are like, I

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<v Speaker 1>don't like the Halloween stuff in September, not related to

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<v Speaker 1>our show, but just our life. And I was like,

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<v Speaker 1>I don't understand. You get out of the car. I

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<v Speaker 1>don't really You can like it or not. That's fine.

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<v Speaker 1>I love it year round. But I just miscalculated. So

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<v Speaker 1>I thought this was going to be the end of September,

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<v Speaker 1>and then I realized, no, it's in October. But there's October.

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<v Speaker 1>There's October coming, I promise, yeah, promise. Well, and I

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<v Speaker 1>don't know what order we're going to put these in,

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<v Speaker 1>but we also today recorded the one about the medieval

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<v Speaker 1>and Early modern Animal Trials, which has some you know,

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<v Speaker 1>witchcrafty witch trial. Yeah, parallel, so similarly kind of a

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<v Speaker 1>on ramp. It's like ish, it's ish, it's in there.

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<v Speaker 1>It's an on ramp. So hopefully you are ready for

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<v Speaker 1>Halloween happenings. Listen, there's witchcraft coming up, there's some murder

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<v Speaker 1>coming up. Wild things are afoot here at stuff you

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<v Speaker 1>missed in history glass. I don't know how wild it'll

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<v Speaker 1>actually be, but hopefully you'll enjoy it. Oh, we talked

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<v Speaker 1>about Carlos Jeswaldo this week. I don't know how he

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<v Speaker 1>got on my list either. I feel like all of

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<v Speaker 1>them lately, I've been like, where did I get this person?

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<v Speaker 1>But I will say there are a lot of people

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<v Speaker 1>while I was researching this that went on the list.

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<v Speaker 1>Because there are people that got obsessed with him. Oh sure,

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<v Speaker 1>and some of them are very interesting, So they may

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<v Speaker 1>pop up this year and then maybe later we'll see, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>we'll see. Did you know about Carlosious wild Over Wore? No?

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<v Speaker 1>I don't think this is even a name that really

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<v Speaker 1>rang a bell from the music composition standpoint, definitely not

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<v Speaker 1>the murder standpoint. No, the murder stuff is whoof yeah

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<v Speaker 1>yeah woo. He is one of those figures that people

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<v Speaker 1>just become obsessed with, and I understand why, because he

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<v Speaker 1>was obviously eccentric, obviously capable of great violence. There is

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<v Speaker 1>that natural instinct to want to pick apart. How a

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<v Speaker 1>person like that ticks M. I think personally, for a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of people, it's like actually a distancing mechanism, right

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<v Speaker 1>when you're like, I want to know how this played

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<v Speaker 1>out with this person, because that way I know that

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<v Speaker 1>I am not like that, and people in my life

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<v Speaker 1>are not like that. Like I think subconsciously, that's part

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<v Speaker 1>of what you're doing. It's creating a space between you

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<v Speaker 1>and something scary. Yeah, you and I don't live in

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<v Speaker 1>a time and place where an honor killing is a

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<v Speaker 1>legally acceptable remedy. Yeah, but there are places in the

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<v Speaker 1>world where that is still the case the case. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>So simultaneously hearing about it in this context was like,

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<v Speaker 1>that is so bizarre to me that this would be

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<v Speaker 1>People would say, oh, yeah, you did have the right

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<v Speaker 1>to go and murder them, but like simultaneously acknowledging that

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<v Speaker 1>there are places where like that does still happen and

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<v Speaker 1>is still sort of seen as an appropriate legal action

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<v Speaker 1>for something that either has happened or is alleged to

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<v Speaker 1>have happened. Yeah, And what's interesting here, And I really

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<v Speaker 1>appreciated the fact that there is a degree of nuance

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<v Speaker 1>because there were people then who were like, nuh uh,

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<v Speaker 1>that was not okay because of the manner that he

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<v Speaker 1>carried things out, and because of the level of brutality

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<v Speaker 1>of it, there was sort of a recognition that even

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<v Speaker 1>with that pretty horrific acceptability level in place, that there

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<v Speaker 1>were limits to it, which I just find interesting, right,

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<v Speaker 1>And I also am kind of interested in this idea

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<v Speaker 1>that for a time he essentially like blew up the

0:10:18.720 --> 0:10:23.280
<v Speaker 1>social structure of Naples by like making the most powerful

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<v Speaker 1>families all kind of have this really horrible and problematic

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<v Speaker 1>issue at their core. That's very interesting to me. As

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<v Speaker 1>far as how he got things chill enough with those

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<v Speaker 1>families to go back to Naples, it's a little unclear,

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<v Speaker 1>and I think I only found one mention of it

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<v Speaker 1>where it was essentially like he eventually made peace with

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<v Speaker 1>Maria's family, and I'm like, but how, how how did

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<v Speaker 1>that work out? And I don't know. One of the

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<v Speaker 1>other interesting things about his biography and particular is that

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<v Speaker 1>it's a really good example of something you and I

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<v Speaker 1>see all the time, where when there's a case like

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<v Speaker 1>this that has some existing documentation on it, like the

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<v Speaker 1>church's court records about what happened and their determination exists,

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<v Speaker 1>that document remains. It's an Italian so I was reading

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<v Speaker 1>obviously translations of it, but there aren't a lot of

0:11:26.480 --> 0:11:30.640
<v Speaker 1>such documents about him, and so there becomes that sort

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<v Speaker 1>of rabbit hop, a game of as you're reading one account,

0:11:35.080 --> 0:11:39.120
<v Speaker 1>it's referencing another account that you already read, and that's

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<v Speaker 1>tying back to another historian that has studied it, and

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<v Speaker 1>like you kind of get the round robin of source

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<v Speaker 1>names being like played out over and over. But what

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<v Speaker 1>I also found really fun in this one, as much

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<v Speaker 1>as you can find fun in such a grizzly tale,

0:11:54.960 --> 0:11:57.439
<v Speaker 1>was about those relationships, because in a lot of cases

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<v Speaker 1>it would be like, well, in this version that came

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<v Speaker 1>out in the seventeen hundreds, they say this, but we

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<v Speaker 1>all know that's wrong now, and then later on another

0:12:06.640 --> 0:12:09.400
<v Speaker 1>historian would reference that person and say, well, you know

0:12:09.520 --> 0:12:13.080
<v Speaker 1>that person that contradicted that, we all know they're wrong now. Like,

0:12:13.120 --> 0:12:16.920
<v Speaker 1>there are a lot of interesting developments. One of the

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<v Speaker 1>other things that I didn't work into the episode because

0:12:21.720 --> 0:12:25.920
<v Speaker 1>it just was convoluted, but I thought was interesting is

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<v Speaker 1>that that Alex Ross piece from the New Yorker mentions

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<v Speaker 1>that even today there's sort of new information coming out.

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<v Speaker 1>And I say today that was written in at twenty eleven,

0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:41.320
<v Speaker 1>so fifteen years ago, but not quite fifteen. There are

0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:44.640
<v Speaker 1>still new pieces of information coming out, and that it's

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<v Speaker 1>possible that the building that still exists that everyone has

0:12:50.720 --> 0:12:55.320
<v Speaker 1>believed forever was where these murders took place. Now there

0:12:55.320 --> 0:12:57.320
<v Speaker 1>are some people that say that is not accurate, that

0:12:57.400 --> 0:13:01.600
<v Speaker 1>it was actually a different building. And this becomes important

0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:07.000
<v Speaker 1>because he was actually if that's the case, he would

0:13:07.000 --> 0:13:13.040
<v Speaker 1>have been renting that home from a relative of Fabrizio.

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<v Speaker 1>So just look to like further cement how intertwined all

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<v Speaker 1>of this stuff was and how complicated it was socially.

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<v Speaker 1>That struck me as fascinating. Yeah, hopefully that more Halloween

0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:30.599
<v Speaker 1>will be fun and not so grizzly. I'm in a

0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:33.080
<v Speaker 1>grizzly murder stage right now. I don't know why, just

0:13:33.200 --> 0:13:37.040
<v Speaker 1>em Yeah. I always say I'm fine. I'm not, you know,

0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:40.880
<v Speaker 1>going through anything. I just sometimes sometimes you gotta talk

0:13:40.920 --> 0:13:44.240
<v Speaker 1>about a murder. Sometimes I like talking about dark stuff fascinating.

0:13:45.559 --> 0:13:48.120
<v Speaker 1>I will add that I really appreciated the quote that

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<v Speaker 1>was in here from WB Ober Yeah, about using what

0:13:56.240 --> 0:13:58.840
<v Speaker 1>would have been modern methods in nineteen seventy three to

0:13:58.880 --> 0:14:02.320
<v Speaker 1>try to diagnose him. Yeah, that whole field has come,

0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:07.200
<v Speaker 1>of course through a lot many things have developed since

0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:09.080
<v Speaker 1>nineteen seventy three, But like a lot of the core

0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:11.880
<v Speaker 1>things that he was saying are still absolutely true. Like

0:14:12.960 --> 0:14:16.960
<v Speaker 1>even when we do know more about a person than

0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:20.320
<v Speaker 1>we know about Gswaldo personally, like that still does not

0:14:22.200 --> 0:14:27.560
<v Speaker 1>provide the same kind of background and depth as actually

0:14:27.640 --> 0:14:33.000
<v Speaker 1>being examined by someone. Yes, I might ruin that moment

0:14:33.120 --> 0:14:37.000
<v Speaker 1>for you in a moment, okay, because Ober said all

0:14:37.040 --> 0:14:39.480
<v Speaker 1>that as sort of the precursor to go. But here's

0:14:39.520 --> 0:14:43.800
<v Speaker 1>what I think it was. What would that cracks me up?

0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:46.720
<v Speaker 1>But what did he think? I mean? He basically was

0:14:46.840 --> 0:14:52.920
<v Speaker 1>making the case that Gisualdo probably had may have had

0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:58.400
<v Speaker 1>some you know, repressed sexual issues that he didn't know

0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:02.600
<v Speaker 1>how to express that like that he may have been

0:15:03.440 --> 0:15:05.320
<v Speaker 1>He kind of makes the case that he may have

0:15:05.480 --> 0:15:11.320
<v Speaker 1>been homosexual. He doesn't really say he could have been bisexual,

0:15:11.360 --> 0:15:13.720
<v Speaker 1>but he does say, but he did father children with women,

0:15:14.200 --> 0:15:17.960
<v Speaker 1>which is kind of interesting, and that he may have

0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:24.400
<v Speaker 1>just had like some you know, very specific fixations that

0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:27.800
<v Speaker 1>you can kind of see playing out in his later

0:15:27.880 --> 0:15:30.600
<v Speaker 1>life when he's hiring people to beat him when he

0:15:30.720 --> 0:15:34.920
<v Speaker 1>is having trouble you know, using the bathroom without that

0:15:35.080 --> 0:15:37.480
<v Speaker 1>being in play, Like he talks it through, but he's like,

0:15:37.520 --> 0:15:41.040
<v Speaker 1>you know, I will only ever make a comment that

0:15:41.200 --> 0:15:45.560
<v Speaker 1>is supported or based some way in something we actually

0:15:45.640 --> 0:15:48.480
<v Speaker 1>know his approach to doing that and saying like it's

0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:50.240
<v Speaker 1>worth talking about what was going on, but we have

0:15:50.280 --> 0:15:52.840
<v Speaker 1>to be careful that he would never make a leap

0:15:52.880 --> 0:15:56.120
<v Speaker 1>of faith and go, I think what's happening is he

0:15:56.120 --> 0:15:58.320
<v Speaker 1>would say like this, this seems like it might be

0:15:58.360 --> 0:16:00.640
<v Speaker 1>the case, but we have to also factor and these

0:16:00.680 --> 0:16:03.120
<v Speaker 1>three things we know, like, who's careful about it? But

0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:06.400
<v Speaker 1>it wasn't. It was still a but here's where he

0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:09.840
<v Speaker 1>might have been there we could have been going on

0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:12.760
<v Speaker 1>with him. Yeah, as a person who's not a psychologist

0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:17.240
<v Speaker 1>but has read a lot of things about like trying

0:16:17.280 --> 0:16:22.480
<v Speaker 1>to diagnose people from history and about the history of psychology,

0:16:22.640 --> 0:16:29.000
<v Speaker 1>that feels like a pretty like dated interpretations. Well for sure,

0:16:29.880 --> 0:16:34.920
<v Speaker 1>but the points about all of the severe limitations of

0:16:35.600 --> 0:16:39.520
<v Speaker 1>trying to diagnose someone from three hundred and fifty years later,

0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:44.760
<v Speaker 1>that all holds up. Yeah, in my opinion, Yeah, it's

0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:46.760
<v Speaker 1>almost like he's like, I know, this is what people

0:16:46.840 --> 0:16:50.280
<v Speaker 1>want and that was all from a journal that was

0:16:50.440 --> 0:16:54.360
<v Speaker 1>written about medicine and was about, you know, people trying

0:16:54.400 --> 0:16:58.000
<v Speaker 1>to unravel this thing. So it is sort of the

0:16:58.040 --> 0:17:01.440
<v Speaker 1>most responsible approach you could have had for it in

0:17:00.920 --> 0:17:04.200
<v Speaker 1>the early seventies, although, as she said, some of those

0:17:04.200 --> 0:17:07.960
<v Speaker 1>ideas are very outdated. Man, yeah, we'll never know. I

0:17:08.000 --> 0:17:11.440
<v Speaker 1>think that was probably a tortured human who made a

0:17:11.480 --> 0:17:14.240
<v Speaker 1>lot of chaos, A tortured human with time on his hands,

0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:17.119
<v Speaker 1>who made a lot of chaos as a result. Like

0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:18.679
<v Speaker 1>if he had been a busy bee, if he had

0:17:18.680 --> 0:17:25.000
<v Speaker 1>had work to do outside of just being driven by

0:17:25.000 --> 0:17:30.119
<v Speaker 1>his own stuff, he might have found more I don't know, structure,

0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:35.080
<v Speaker 1>some sort of peace somehow, I don't know. He clearly

0:17:35.119 --> 0:17:40.320
<v Speaker 1>did not have peace in his heart or mind. Just sad. Uh. Yeah,

0:17:40.400 --> 0:17:44.520
<v Speaker 1>Carlo's Aswaldo. Don't be like Carlo. If you find him interesting,

0:17:44.880 --> 0:17:48.640
<v Speaker 1>rest assured you can find hours and hours and hours

0:17:48.680 --> 0:17:52.800
<v Speaker 1>of both musical analysis as well as you know, people

0:17:52.800 --> 0:17:57.040
<v Speaker 1>looking at his life story YouTube has you covered? Man,

0:17:57.359 --> 0:17:59.440
<v Speaker 1>You can listen to those madrigals for a long time.

0:17:59.640 --> 0:18:01.920
<v Speaker 1>Although there are funny things that people write like, oh,

0:18:01.920 --> 0:18:03.679
<v Speaker 1>don't listen to them for a long time. They'll just

0:18:03.720 --> 0:18:06.320
<v Speaker 1>make you feel weird. And it's like, I mean, I

0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:10.119
<v Speaker 1>guess I didn't feel weird. I had a lot of

0:18:10.119 --> 0:18:12.720
<v Speaker 1>his stuff playing when I was writing, and some of

0:18:12.760 --> 0:18:17.160
<v Speaker 1>it is quite striking, but I never felt weird. So right, Carlo,

0:18:18.040 --> 0:18:20.639
<v Speaker 1>If this is your weekend coming up, I hope you

0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:23.040
<v Speaker 1>find some peace in your heart and your mind and

0:18:23.080 --> 0:18:25.640
<v Speaker 1>that you get some time to just relax, hang out. Man,

0:18:25.720 --> 0:18:28.920
<v Speaker 1>we need it. If you don't have that kind of time,

0:18:29.600 --> 0:18:31.920
<v Speaker 1>that's stinks, and I'm sorry, but I hope everybody's really

0:18:32.000 --> 0:18:34.440
<v Speaker 1>nice to you, and that we're all busy taking care

0:18:34.480 --> 0:18:36.800
<v Speaker 1>of each other. We will be right back here tomorrow

0:18:36.840 --> 0:18:39.800
<v Speaker 1>with a classic episode and then a fresh one on Monday.

0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:48.119
<v Speaker 1>Stuff you Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio.

0:18:48.480 --> 0:18:53.080
<v Speaker 1>For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:55.240
<v Speaker 1>or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.