1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Holly Frye and 3 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,280 Speaker 1: I'm tray cy V Wilson. And we talked about Alger 4 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:20,639 Speaker 1: Hisss this week. Uh huh, who is fascinating to me? 5 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:22,959 Speaker 1: And as I said at the top of that, like 6 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:24,320 Speaker 1: I grew up hearing about him all the time. I 7 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: don't know why. There were two things that I promised 8 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: I would talk about. Well, I promised one and I 9 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:34,159 Speaker 1: promised myself the other. The verse was the typewriter. So 10 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: the case that his lawyers tried to make to counter 11 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:42,080 Speaker 1: that evidence that had been introduced that that typewriter was 12 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:45,559 Speaker 1: the typewriter in their home was intense. They did a 13 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: lot of work It actually went on for a couple 14 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 1: of years even after he had been incarcerated, where they 15 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: actually had like an expert put together essentially a new 16 00:00:56,640 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: typewriter that could mimic exactly what his is home typewriter 17 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 1: did to show like people could totally do this. They 18 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: could have built their own copycat typewriter. And there was 19 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:11,040 Speaker 1: also like work done where they were trying to make 20 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 1: the case that potentially the typewriter that was produced, wasn't 21 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:19,680 Speaker 1: even hit as part of evidence in court, wasn't even 22 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 1: Hiss's typewriter, but one that had been altered to look 23 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:25,679 Speaker 1: like his typewriter. Like, they made a lot of efforts 24 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:30,039 Speaker 1: to show the ways that those documents could have been 25 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 1: forged and made to look like they came from the 26 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 1: Hiss home. Sure, but ultimately the judge that heard those 27 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 1: appeals was like, I just don't think Whittaker Chambers had 28 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:42,839 Speaker 1: the time and energy to do something like this, which 29 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:46,320 Speaker 1: is kind of interesting. I just find that fascinating. Like, 30 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: I know what we'll do. We're going to hire a 31 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 1: typewriter forgery expert to build a new typewriter. I mean, 32 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 1: it's really interesting. I'm not even dogging it. I just 33 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 1: think it's fascinating. Yeah, the other thing I was going 34 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:03,639 Speaker 1: to mention was his is not divorce. So apparently several 35 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: years after he got out of prison, he asked his 36 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 1: wife Priscilla for a divorce and she said no, And 37 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 1: it seems like he may have met his second wife 38 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:17,320 Speaker 1: already at that point. I don't have substantiation on this, 39 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 1: which is why I didn't want to put in the episode, 40 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 1: but it's interesting and that he had wanted to marry 41 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 1: her then, but he couldn't because his wife wouldn't give 42 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:27,680 Speaker 1: him a divorce, and so then they just had to wait, 43 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 1: and then when Priscilla died, they got married shortly thereafter. 44 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 1: Just kind of interesting. Yeah, there's a part of me. 45 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 1: I'm not generally a conspiracy theorist, but there is part 46 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 1: of me that's like, he did seem to want to 47 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 1: unearth so much stuff. That part of me is like 48 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:49,799 Speaker 1: he might have been innocent. Mm hmm, Like I can't imagine, 49 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. It's one of those cases 50 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 1: where if you are not innocent, why would you want 51 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 1: to work so hard to have every possible document released? Right? 52 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 1: But one thing that several historians have pointed out is that, 53 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 1: you know, when like his lawyers, for example, would get 54 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:09,239 Speaker 1: information from documents, they would of course kind of cherry 55 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 1: pick what made his look best. So it's like it's 56 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:16,919 Speaker 1: an interesting game of I don't know, I don't know, 57 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 1: well we ever know conclusively? Probably not. Most people accept 58 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 1: he was a spy of some sort, right, but I 59 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 1: don't spies. Are you generally into Cold War history stuff? 60 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: We haven't talked about it a lot on the show 61 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: because it's so recent that really, in terms of like 62 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 1: fictional depictions, I can find a good spy story really 63 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 1: interesting and compelling. But I feel like having been born 64 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 1: when I was born and kind of growing up in 65 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: the very tail end of you know, the existence of 66 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 1: the USSR and all of all of that, like we 67 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: were not in the thick of the Cold War. Really, 68 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 1: I would say that the things were a lot more 69 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 1: heightened in terms of that earlier. But like I do 70 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 1: remember sort of the looming fear of nuclear war when 71 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 1: I was a kid, and it makes it less of 72 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:27,480 Speaker 1: a draw for me, Right, I think probably having a 73 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 1: dad that was in the military shifted that for me 74 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 1: a little. Yeah, it felt very much like that was 75 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 1: always part of our households discussions. Yeah, yeah, which is 76 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:41,480 Speaker 1: kind of fascinating. Yeah. I love a good inconclusive story, 77 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 1: though I do. I love a history mystery. I mean, 78 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 1: on the one hand, like I just it's interesting to 79 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 1: know that there there was obviously some group of people 80 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:57,839 Speaker 1: high up in our government that was communicating with the Soviets, right, 81 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 1: and I'm sure the same was going on in reverse. Right. 82 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 1: It's always just fascinating to me like that aspect of 83 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:07,160 Speaker 1: human nature where it's like you are in a seed 84 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:12,359 Speaker 1: of power and success and something about it makes you 85 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 1: want to do dangerous stuff and like normalize dangerous stuff. 86 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:20,839 Speaker 1: I'm such a whimp. I want no part of dangerous things. 87 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 1: So I'm always like, what is that headspace? Right? What 88 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 1: is it like, Like how do you go about your 89 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 1: day to day life. Does it constantly something you're thinking 90 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 1: about or is it just like compartmentalized in a way 91 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 1: that you don't give it a lot of thought beyond 92 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:40,039 Speaker 1: like the needs of the things you're doing in terms 93 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:43,479 Speaker 1: of logistics. I'm just I'm fascinated by it anyway. Yeah, 94 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 1: which is why I wanted to do this one. Alger hisss. 95 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: This is our on ramp to Halloween things. I promise 96 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:52,920 Speaker 1: Halloween stuff is coming, but this at least had pumpkins 97 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 1: in it. Yeah. When I got the outline from you, 98 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: I was like, I'm surprised this is not more Halloween themed. 99 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:01,799 Speaker 1: I read through it was like, oh, there's a ghost 100 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:05,039 Speaker 1: story article at a pumpkin Well, and I will tell 101 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:07,920 Speaker 1: you that part of that is accidental because I had 102 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: looked at our calendar a while back and calculated out 103 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: how many episodes I had to have ready that were 104 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:16,560 Speaker 1: not Halloween before we got to October. I mean, I 105 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 1: would talk about Halloween stuff year round, you know, but 106 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 1: that's not really appropriate for most people I had. I 107 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:27,479 Speaker 1: have talked to several people lately who are like, I 108 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 1: don't like the Halloween stuff in September, not related to 109 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: our show, but just our life. And I was like, 110 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 1: I don't understand. You get out of the car. I 111 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:38,279 Speaker 1: don't really You can like it or not. That's fine. 112 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:41,839 Speaker 1: I love it year round. But I just miscalculated. So 113 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 1: I thought this was going to be the end of September, 114 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 1: and then I realized, no, it's in October. But there's October. 115 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 1: There's October coming, I promise, yeah, promise. Well, and I 116 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 1: don't know what order we're going to put these in, 117 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:58,839 Speaker 1: but we also today recorded the one about the medieval 118 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 1: and Early modern Animal Trials, which has some you know, 119 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 1: witchcrafty witch trial. Yeah, parallel, so similarly kind of a 120 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 1: on ramp. It's like ish, it's ish, it's in there. 121 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 1: It's an on ramp. So hopefully you are ready for 122 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 1: Halloween happenings. Listen, there's witchcraft coming up, there's some murder 123 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 1: coming up. Wild things are afoot here at stuff you 124 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 1: missed in history glass. I don't know how wild it'll 125 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 1: actually be, but hopefully you'll enjoy it. Oh, we talked 126 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 1: about Carlos Jeswaldo this week. I don't know how he 127 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: got on my list either. I feel like all of 128 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 1: them lately, I've been like, where did I get this person? 129 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 1: But I will say there are a lot of people 130 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 1: while I was researching this that went on the list. 131 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 1: Because there are people that got obsessed with him. Oh sure, 132 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: and some of them are very interesting, So they may 133 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 1: pop up this year and then maybe later we'll see, Yeah, 134 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 1: we'll see. Did you know about Carlosious wild Over Wore? No? 135 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 1: I don't think this is even a name that really 136 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 1: rang a bell from the music composition standpoint, definitely not 137 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 1: the murder standpoint. No, the murder stuff is whoof yeah 138 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 1: yeah woo. He is one of those figures that people 139 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 1: just become obsessed with, and I understand why, because he 140 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 1: was obviously eccentric, obviously capable of great violence. There is 141 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:35,560 Speaker 1: that natural instinct to want to pick apart. How a 142 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:39,200 Speaker 1: person like that ticks M. I think personally, for a 143 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 1: lot of people, it's like actually a distancing mechanism, right 144 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:46,199 Speaker 1: when you're like, I want to know how this played 145 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 1: out with this person, because that way I know that 146 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 1: I am not like that, and people in my life 147 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 1: are not like that. Like I think subconsciously, that's part 148 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 1: of what you're doing. It's creating a space between you 149 00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:00,560 Speaker 1: and something scary. Yeah, you and I don't live in 150 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 1: a time and place where an honor killing is a 151 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 1: legally acceptable remedy. Yeah, but there are places in the 152 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:14,080 Speaker 1: world where that is still the case the case. Yeah, 153 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 1: So simultaneously hearing about it in this context was like, 154 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 1: that is so bizarre to me that this would be 155 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 1: People would say, oh, yeah, you did have the right 156 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:28,840 Speaker 1: to go and murder them, but like simultaneously acknowledging that 157 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:31,839 Speaker 1: there are places where like that does still happen and 158 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 1: is still sort of seen as an appropriate legal action 159 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 1: for something that either has happened or is alleged to 160 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:45,199 Speaker 1: have happened. Yeah, And what's interesting here, And I really 161 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:47,840 Speaker 1: appreciated the fact that there is a degree of nuance 162 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 1: because there were people then who were like, nuh uh, 163 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 1: that was not okay because of the manner that he 164 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 1: carried things out, and because of the level of brutality 165 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:01,839 Speaker 1: of it, there was sort of a recognition that even 166 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 1: with that pretty horrific acceptability level in place, that there 167 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:11,320 Speaker 1: were limits to it, which I just find interesting, right, 168 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 1: And I also am kind of interested in this idea 169 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 1: that for a time he essentially like blew up the 170 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 1: social structure of Naples by like making the most powerful 171 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:28,479 Speaker 1: families all kind of have this really horrible and problematic 172 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:33,440 Speaker 1: issue at their core. That's very interesting to me. As 173 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 1: far as how he got things chill enough with those 174 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 1: families to go back to Naples, it's a little unclear, 175 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 1: and I think I only found one mention of it 176 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 1: where it was essentially like he eventually made peace with 177 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 1: Maria's family, and I'm like, but how, how how did 178 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 1: that work out? And I don't know. One of the 179 00:10:56,440 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 1: other interesting things about his biography and particular is that 180 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 1: it's a really good example of something you and I 181 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 1: see all the time, where when there's a case like 182 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:11,200 Speaker 1: this that has some existing documentation on it, like the 183 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 1: church's court records about what happened and their determination exists, 184 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:20,560 Speaker 1: that document remains. It's an Italian so I was reading 185 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:26,439 Speaker 1: obviously translations of it, but there aren't a lot of 186 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 1: such documents about him, and so there becomes that sort 187 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 1: of rabbit hop, a game of as you're reading one account, 188 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 1: it's referencing another account that you already read, and that's 189 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 1: tying back to another historian that has studied it, and 190 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 1: like you kind of get the round robin of source 191 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 1: names being like played out over and over. But what 192 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 1: I also found really fun in this one, as much 193 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:54,080 Speaker 1: as you can find fun in such a grizzly tale, 194 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:57,439 Speaker 1: was about those relationships, because in a lot of cases 195 00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 1: it would be like, well, in this version that came 196 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 1: out in the seventeen hundreds, they say this, but we 197 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 1: all know that's wrong now, and then later on another 198 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: historian would reference that person and say, well, you know 199 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:13,080 Speaker 1: that person that contradicted that, we all know they're wrong now. Like, 200 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: there are a lot of interesting developments. One of the 201 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:20,840 Speaker 1: other things that I didn't work into the episode because 202 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 1: it just was convoluted, but I thought was interesting is 203 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:31,199 Speaker 1: that that Alex Ross piece from the New Yorker mentions 204 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 1: that even today there's sort of new information coming out. 205 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 1: And I say today that was written in at twenty eleven, 206 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:41,320 Speaker 1: so fifteen years ago, but not quite fifteen. There are 207 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 1: still new pieces of information coming out, and that it's 208 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:50,680 Speaker 1: possible that the building that still exists that everyone has 209 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:55,320 Speaker 1: believed forever was where these murders took place. Now there 210 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:57,320 Speaker 1: are some people that say that is not accurate, that 211 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 1: it was actually a different building. And this becomes important 212 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 1: because he was actually if that's the case, he would 213 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 1: have been renting that home from a relative of Fabrizio. 214 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 1: So just look to like further cement how intertwined all 215 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 1: of this stuff was and how complicated it was socially. 216 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 1: That struck me as fascinating. Yeah, hopefully that more Halloween 217 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:30,599 Speaker 1: will be fun and not so grizzly. I'm in a 218 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:33,080 Speaker 1: grizzly murder stage right now. I don't know why, just 219 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 1: em Yeah. I always say I'm fine. I'm not, you know, 220 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 1: going through anything. I just sometimes sometimes you gotta talk 221 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:44,240 Speaker 1: about a murder. Sometimes I like talking about dark stuff fascinating. 222 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 1: I will add that I really appreciated the quote that 223 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:56,200 Speaker 1: was in here from WB Ober Yeah, about using what 224 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:58,840 Speaker 1: would have been modern methods in nineteen seventy three to 225 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:02,320 Speaker 1: try to diagnose him. Yeah, that whole field has come, 226 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:07,200 Speaker 1: of course through a lot many things have developed since 227 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:09,080 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy three, But like a lot of the core 228 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 1: things that he was saying are still absolutely true. Like 229 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 1: even when we do know more about a person than 230 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 1: we know about Gswaldo personally, like that still does not 231 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 1: provide the same kind of background and depth as actually 232 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 1: being examined by someone. Yes, I might ruin that moment 233 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 1: for you in a moment, okay, because Ober said all 234 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 1: that as sort of the precursor to go. But here's 235 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 1: what I think it was. What would that cracks me up? 236 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 1: But what did he think? I mean? He basically was 237 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 1: making the case that Gisualdo probably had may have had 238 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 1: some you know, repressed sexual issues that he didn't know 239 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 1: how to express that like that he may have been 240 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 1: He kind of makes the case that he may have 241 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 1: been homosexual. He doesn't really say he could have been bisexual, 242 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 1: but he does say, but he did father children with women, 243 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 1: which is kind of interesting, and that he may have 244 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 1: just had like some you know, very specific fixations that 245 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 1: you can kind of see playing out in his later 246 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 1: life when he's hiring people to beat him when he 247 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 1: is having trouble you know, using the bathroom without that 248 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 1: being in play, Like he talks it through, but he's like, 249 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 1: you know, I will only ever make a comment that 250 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 1: is supported or based some way in something we actually 251 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 1: know his approach to doing that and saying like it's 252 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: worth talking about what was going on, but we have 253 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 1: to be careful that he would never make a leap 254 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 1: of faith and go, I think what's happening is he 255 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 1: would say like this, this seems like it might be 256 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: the case, but we have to also factor and these 257 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 1: three things we know, like, who's careful about it? But 258 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 1: it wasn't. It was still a but here's where he 259 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: might have been there we could have been going on 260 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 1: with him. Yeah, as a person who's not a psychologist 261 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 1: but has read a lot of things about like trying 262 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 1: to diagnose people from history and about the history of psychology, 263 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 1: that feels like a pretty like dated interpretations. Well for sure, 264 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 1: but the points about all of the severe limitations of 265 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 1: trying to diagnose someone from three hundred and fifty years later, 266 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 1: that all holds up. Yeah, in my opinion, Yeah, it's 267 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 1: almost like he's like, I know, this is what people 268 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 1: want and that was all from a journal that was 269 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:54,360 Speaker 1: written about medicine and was about, you know, people trying 270 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 1: to unravel this thing. So it is sort of the 271 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 1: most responsible approach you could have had for it in 272 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:04,200 Speaker 1: the early seventies, although, as she said, some of those 273 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 1: ideas are very outdated. Man, yeah, we'll never know. I 274 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:11,440 Speaker 1: think that was probably a tortured human who made a 275 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 1: lot of chaos, A tortured human with time on his hands, 276 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:17,119 Speaker 1: who made a lot of chaos as a result. Like 277 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:18,679 Speaker 1: if he had been a busy bee, if he had 278 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 1: had work to do outside of just being driven by 279 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:30,119 Speaker 1: his own stuff, he might have found more I don't know, structure, 280 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 1: some sort of peace somehow, I don't know. He clearly 281 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 1: did not have peace in his heart or mind. Just sad. Uh. Yeah, 282 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 1: Carlo's Aswaldo. Don't be like Carlo. If you find him interesting, 283 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:48,640 Speaker 1: rest assured you can find hours and hours and hours 284 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: of both musical analysis as well as you know, people 285 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 1: looking at his life story YouTube has you covered? Man, 286 00:17:57,359 --> 00:17:59,440 Speaker 1: You can listen to those madrigals for a long time. 287 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 1: Although there are funny things that people write like, oh, 288 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:03,679 Speaker 1: don't listen to them for a long time. They'll just 289 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 1: make you feel weird. And it's like, I mean, I 290 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:10,119 Speaker 1: guess I didn't feel weird. I had a lot of 291 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:12,720 Speaker 1: his stuff playing when I was writing, and some of 292 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:17,160 Speaker 1: it is quite striking, but I never felt weird. So right, Carlo, 293 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:20,639 Speaker 1: If this is your weekend coming up, I hope you 294 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 1: find some peace in your heart and your mind and 295 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:25,640 Speaker 1: that you get some time to just relax, hang out. Man, 296 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:28,920 Speaker 1: we need it. If you don't have that kind of time, 297 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:31,920 Speaker 1: that's stinks, and I'm sorry, but I hope everybody's really 298 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 1: nice to you, and that we're all busy taking care 299 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 1: of each other. We will be right back here tomorrow 300 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: with a classic episode and then a fresh one on Monday. 301 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:48,119 Speaker 1: Stuff you Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. 302 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 303 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.