1 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:10,040 Speaker 1: Welcome to Prognosis. I'm Francesco Levi. Laura Carlson is out. 2 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:16,480 Speaker 1: It's day two eight since coronavirus was declared a global pandemic. 3 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: Today's main story A group of renegade scientists are trying 4 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:26,239 Speaker 1: to make their own ultra fast tracked vaccine without all 5 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: the regulations slowing them down. They're learning that's harder than 6 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 1: it seems. But first, here's what happened in virus News today. 7 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 1: President Trump expects to be released today from Walter Reed 8 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:50,879 Speaker 1: Medical Center, where he is being treated for COVID nineteen. 9 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: In a tweet, Trump said he would be discharged at 10 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: six thirty pm and that Americans shouldn't fear the virus. 11 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 1: White House physician Sean Conley said at an afternoon press 12 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 1: conference that the President has met discharge criteria but is 13 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:11,039 Speaker 1: not out of the woods and upbeat. Conley said Trump's 14 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:16,199 Speaker 1: duties could safely be completed at the White House. Conflicting 15 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:19,480 Speaker 1: and incomplete accounts from the White House, the President's doctors, 16 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:26,839 Speaker 1: and the President himself have marked Trump's diagnosis and treatment. Meanwhile, 17 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:29,319 Speaker 1: at least three members of the White House press staff, 18 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 1: including Press Secretary Kaylee McKinney, have tested positive for COVID, 19 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 1: as have two members of the Residents housekeeping staff, adding 20 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:42,399 Speaker 1: to the cluster of an affected lawmakers, administration officials, and 21 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:48,280 Speaker 1: others around the president. In most parts of America, COVID 22 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: nineteen is making a dangerous comeback. The disease is hammering 23 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 1: rural America and smaller cities, and raising anxiety in New York. 24 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 1: Experts warn that school reopenings and older weather may cause 25 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: the situation to rapidly deteriorate. In thirty four states, the 26 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:08,919 Speaker 1: seven day average of new cases is higher now than 27 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 1: it was a month ago. Although the virus has waned 28 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 1: in populous states including California and Florida, it is wreaking 29 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:20,800 Speaker 1: unprecedented havoc in the Midwest and making a return in 30 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 1: parts of the Northeast. Finally, Russia reported almost eleven thousand 31 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 1: new cases in a day, the highest daily increase in 32 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: almost five months. Moscow ordered schools closed for two weeks 33 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 1: from Monday, and top officials around the country have called 34 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 1: on residents to wear masks and observe other precautions as 35 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 1: hospital admissions have spiked. Now for today's main story, dozens 36 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 1: of companies are rushing to test and produce a COVID 37 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 1: nineteen vaccine as fast as possible. But a fringe group 38 00:02:57,360 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 1: of d I Y scientists made a bet that with 39 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 1: out regulatory hurdles, they could produce a vaccine themselves a 40 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 1: whole lot faster. But, as Kristin V. Brown reports, they 41 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 1: learned that making a vaccine that works reliably and can 42 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: be proven safe is incredibly difficult. All right, So anyway, um, 43 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:31,360 Speaker 1: here we go. I'm here with the greatest of all time, 44 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 1: Michael Jordan's I'm ready to go. Josiah Ziner is about 45 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:40,880 Speaker 1: to inject himself with his own d I Y coronavirus vaccine. 46 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 1: Josiah is a former NASA scientist turned bio hacker, and 47 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 1: he's live streaming his experiment on YouTube. He's on screen 48 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 1: in his makeshift Oakland lab, wearing blue gloves and a 49 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 1: Michael Jordan jersey. Josiah is cleaning off his shoulder where 50 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 1: he plans to stick the needle. Two collaborators join him 51 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:05,119 Speaker 1: on screen, and they are also preparing to inject themselves 52 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 1: with the vaccine. Ready, I got two point five in 53 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 1: my syringe and then I'll do another two point five, 54 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 1: all right. The two other participants follow him. One of them, 55 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 1: Daria don't Sava, a Ukrainian biohacker, has a friend injector. 56 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:34,040 Speaker 1: She doesn't like needles. Oh, he knows I do not like. 57 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: Josiah is known for this kind of stuff. Years ago 58 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:44,280 Speaker 1: he left institutional science for bio hacking. He has done 59 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:47,280 Speaker 1: all kinds of experiments that should probably come with a 60 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 1: don't try this at home morning, including giving himself a 61 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 1: fecal matter transplant to treat some stomach issues. When the 62 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 1: pandemic struck. Josiah saw an opportunity to show just how 63 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:01,799 Speaker 1: much a biohacker could do you with a little cash 64 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:05,720 Speaker 1: and know how. He thinks things like regulations can slow 65 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 1: down drug development. Josiah says self experimentation has the potential 66 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:14,719 Speaker 1: to make science happen a lot more quickly and cheaply. 67 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 1: The vaccine they are injecting themselves with is a replication 68 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: of one that worked in monkeys. In May, a group 69 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:27,159 Speaker 1: of researchers published a paper demonstrating a vaccine for COVID 70 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 1: nineteen that seemed to trigger immunity to the virus and monkeys. 71 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 1: Josiah decided that he would recreate that vaccine and then 72 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:39,160 Speaker 1: test it on himself in a series of online live 73 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: streamed classes. He recruited to other bio hackers, Daria and 74 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:48,480 Speaker 1: David Ishi in Mississippi to do the experiment with him. 75 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:53,040 Speaker 1: They nicknamed the experiment Project McAfee, after the anti viral software. 76 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 1: Here's Josia introducing the first class. You all just wanted 77 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:03,720 Speaker 1: us to eject this DNA vaccine into ourselves, and we've 78 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 1: already had it made. So we already have the DNA 79 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: vaccine and in sufficient quantities. We had it professionally made. 80 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 1: But we thought that it would it wouldn't give much 81 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 1: to society if we just inject ourselves with it. We 82 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 1: wanted to give more. We wanted to, you know, teach 83 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 1: people to fish. So each week Josiah, Daria, and David 84 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:29,720 Speaker 1: would log onto the live stream and explain a little 85 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 1: bit more about their experiment. They talked about how to 86 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: read an interpret a scientific paper, and how to get 87 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:40,359 Speaker 1: DNA for something like this made for you. For this class, 88 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 1: I want to go over how we went from the 89 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:48,679 Speaker 1: paper to an actual DNA vaccine and had it made 90 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: and synthesized and sent to us and all that all 91 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 1: that good stuff, and how to get blood work done 92 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 1: and antibodies tested to make sure the experiment was accurate. 93 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:05,799 Speaker 1: So my veins pop out the secrets actually being able 94 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 1: to feel the veins and not necessarily just see them, 95 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 1: but be able to feel them. It goes without saying 96 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 1: that none of you should try this at home. Be careful, 97 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 1: be safe out there, don't copy us. After two months, 98 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 1: Josiah tested himself for antibodies again and it seemed as 99 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 1: if the experiment was working. Further testing of their blood 100 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 1: showed that Josiah, David, and Daria all seemed to have 101 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 1: antibodies that suggested immunity to the virus. But this didn't 102 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 1: mean Josiah was about to start handing out his vaccine 103 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 1: to friends and family. This was the first time Josiah 104 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 1: had tried an experiment quite like this, and he realized 105 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: something when he looked at the results. There were simply 106 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 1: too many asterisks to really be sure how to interpret 107 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:03,679 Speaker 1: what they found. These things are messy, That's what I'm learning. 108 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 1: Like when you do a drug test on a human being. 109 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 1: Human beings their biology is so complex that is messy, right, Like, 110 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 1: the results are going to be messy, The experiments are 111 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 1: going to be messy. So like you do thirty thousand people, 112 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 1: so that the messiness kind of averaged out. For example, 113 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 1: as I had gotten antibody test at lab Core before 114 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 1: the experiment, that tests came back negative. But when he 115 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: tested himself again right after that, it wasn't so simple. 116 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 1: You know. I went to lamp Corp And I got 117 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 1: tested and they said I wasn't positive for coronavirus antibodies. 118 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 1: But when I run the experiment myself, it's pretty obvious 119 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 1: I have some sort of antibodies. So he did have 120 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 1: some antibodies, but they weren't neutralizing the virus. So it's 121 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 1: like this weird thing, like what is going on there? 122 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 1: M Are they just other antibodies the coronavirus? Are the 123 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 1: antibodies to a different coronavirus that was a mask? And 124 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:09,839 Speaker 1: that's like an example. If we were just going by 125 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 1: antibodies alone or something, you know, just being like, you know, 126 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 1: did it produce antibodies? I could have just ran a test, 127 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: you know, after I injected the vaccine. It would have 128 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 1: came back as positive. For Josiah. That raised questions about 129 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 1: how to interpret the final results. Maybe the reason I 130 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 1: have antibodies is because, like I was already my immune 131 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 1: system was already primed. I was infected before or something 132 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 1: like that, and the vaccine maybe just you know, it 133 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: was like a booster boosted my antibodies and my immune 134 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:50,559 Speaker 1: system or something like that. Right, it's super complicated. It 135 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:52,560 Speaker 1: starts to get and then you're just like, holy cow, 136 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 1: this thing isn't as simple as we set out, you know, 137 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 1: just like injective scene and measures some antibody project. McAfee 138 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 1: isn't the only COVID nineteen vaccine project happening outside of 139 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:13,319 Speaker 1: normal regulatory structures right now, with thousands of people dying 140 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 1: every day, speed is of the essence, and vaccines take time. 141 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 1: The fastest vaccine ever developed in history was the Month's Vaccine, 142 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 1: and it took four years. The clinical trials alone took 143 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 1: two years. In the US, Operation warp Speed aims to 144 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 1: approve vaccine candidates more quickly than ever, but the first 145 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 1: one is likely still months away. Josiah's human trials took 146 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 1: less than three months. Hank Greeley is a Stanford bioethicist 147 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:48,440 Speaker 1: who has become somewhat of an expert on Josias antics 148 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:51,680 Speaker 1: over the years. He says, in the end, while the 149 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:55,680 Speaker 1: experiment was interesting. It simply wasn't big enough to add 150 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:59,319 Speaker 1: much to the body of scientific research. I think we 151 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 1: could fairly say it adds a tiny bit of value. 152 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 1: It shows that if you do this to three people, 153 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:10,839 Speaker 1: none of the three dropped it. That's, you know, that's something. 154 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:15,320 Speaker 1: None of the three apparently had terrible reactions. Now you'd 155 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 1: want thirty thousand instead of three, but three adds a 156 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 1: tiny bit. I think the potential risks without way any 157 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:29,200 Speaker 1: benefits you could expect from an end of three vaccine trial. Um, yeah, 158 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:33,320 Speaker 1: it added a thimble thimble's worth of water to the ocean. 159 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 1: But Hank says there is value in showing what really 160 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 1: goes into making a vaccine. So I think there is 161 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 1: some value in showing that this is not magic. It's 162 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:47,440 Speaker 1: not rocket science, but it is I think useful for 163 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 1: people to know that actually making making the vaccine isn't 164 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:56,680 Speaker 1: that hard. It's testing it and knowing that it's safe 165 00:11:56,720 --> 00:12:00,199 Speaker 1: and knowing that it's effective. That's the hard part. There 166 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:06,319 Speaker 1: is a benefit in having people realize that it's not magic. 167 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:13,199 Speaker 1: In the end, Josiah's coronavirus trials actually made him decide 168 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 1: to take a break from human experimentation. He says it's 169 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 1: just too complicated. Instead, he says his next project will 170 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 1: be teaching people to grow chicken cells and to make 171 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:38,679 Speaker 1: fake meat. And that's it for our show. For coverage 172 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 1: of the outbreak from one bureaus around the world, visit 173 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:45,960 Speaker 1: bloomberg dot com slash coronavirus and if you like the show, 174 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 1: please leave us a review and a rating on Apple 175 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 1: Podcasts or Spotify. It's the best way to help more 176 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 1: listeners find our global reporting. The Prognosis Daily edition is 177 00:12:55,640 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: produced by tofor Foreheads, Jordan Gospore, Magnus Hendrickson, and Laura Carlson. 178 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 1: Today's main story was reported by Kristin V. Brown. Original 179 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: music by Leo Sidron. Our editors are Rick Shine and 180 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 1: me Francesco Levi. I'm also Bloomberg's head of Podcasts.