1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:04,479 Speaker 1: Pimagazine is the most respected magazine of the professional investigator, 2 00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 1: featuring stories and articles on current topics, equipment reviews, investigative tips, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:13,080 Speaker 1: and practical advice for the professional investigator. Don't miss a 4 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: single issue of Pimagazine. Subscribe today at pimagazine dot com. 5 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:20,920 Speaker 1: Use this show's promotional code for your special discount at 6 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:25,279 Speaker 1: pimagazine dot com. Subscribe today, use promo code Nancy for 7 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: your special discount. That's promo code Nancy. Crime Stories with 8 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph Channel one thirty two. 9 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:51,360 Speaker 1: One of the most feared serial killer known to American history, 10 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 1: whose name conjures up visions of terror, of kidnapping, of rape, 11 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 1: of murder, even necrophilia. He's called an evil genius. It's 12 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:08,959 Speaker 1: hard to live in America unless you're living in a 13 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:11,959 Speaker 1: cave or under a rock and not know the name 14 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: Ted Bundy. I Nancy Grays, this is Crime Stories. Thank 15 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 1: you for being with us. Evil genius? Is that how 16 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: Ted Bundy should be described. Born Theodore Robert Cowell, the 17 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:36,399 Speaker 1: American serial killer, kidnapper, burglar, rapist, necrophile who confessed to 18 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 1: thirty homicides in seven different states. A true count of 19 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 1: his victims is likely to be much greater. Joining me, 20 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 1: renowned serial killer historian, author of Sons of Caine, History 21 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 1: of serial killers from stone Age to present. Peter Vronsky. 22 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: Also with me Stephen Lampley, police veteran, former SVU detective 23 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: and author of Outside Your Door Stories and cases of 24 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:12,080 Speaker 1: his police career, including the arrest of the Claimont killer. 25 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 1: With me, of course, Alan, the Duke Duke joining me 26 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 1: from La Alan. Let me tell you a story about 27 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: Ted Bundy, and I really cannot reveal my source. I 28 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 1: had a very dear friend who was a rookie cop 29 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 1: and Ted Bundy had to be transported. The rookie my 30 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:35,079 Speaker 1: friend was with the veteran cop. The veteran cop was 31 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 1: driving the car. Now remember Ted Bundy had escaped the 32 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 1: courthouse before, I believe escaped to jail before by losing 33 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 1: so much way to crawl through a vent. Although I 34 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 1: may be confusing my serial killers, but they were transported 35 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 1: the very slippery Ted Bundy and Ted Bundy got to 36 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 1: complaining about I guess the air conditioner or the heat 37 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 1: or something in the car, and the veteran cop pull 38 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 1: holds the car over, opens the car door gets out, 39 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 1: opens Bundy's door and says get out. I want you 40 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:16,399 Speaker 1: to run. Go ahead, try to escape. Bundy, of course, 41 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 1: did not get out of the car, and the veteran 42 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 1: cop came to us senses shortly thereafter, and he slammed 43 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:23,839 Speaker 1: the door and got back in and continued transporting him 44 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 1: so he could live off the public dole for several 45 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 1: more years. Everybody, thank you for being with us. We're 46 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 1: talking about evil geniuses. First to Peter Vronsky, serial killer historian, 47 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 1: author of Sons of Kine, History of serial killer Stone 48 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 1: Age to present. It's on Amazon dot com. Peter Vronsky, 49 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 1: why do people insist on referring to Ted Bundy as 50 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:47,839 Speaker 1: a genius? I mean, that's certainly putting perfume on the pig, 51 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 1: isn't it. Well, he certainly tested high on intelligence, you know, 52 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 1: i Q tests. He's a genius in that way, you know, 53 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: which makes it a that's a myth, that's real killers 54 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 1: are genius. But he certainly challenges the myth. He's admitted 55 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 1: into law school, although he doesn't do that well once 56 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: he gets into law school. But indeed he's university educated. 57 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 1: He's well spoken, genius. I don't know but certainly intelligent. 58 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: Well Stephen Lampley, police vet, author of Outside Your Door 59 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 1: on Amazon also Stephen Lampley, he managed to elude the 60 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:33,840 Speaker 1: police for quite a long time. I mean he confessed 61 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 1: to thirty murders of young women. That's just what he's 62 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 1: confessed to. You have to understand, serial killers, for the 63 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 1: most part, are pretty devious. You know, it takes a 64 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: while for police officers to realize that, indeed that they 65 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 1: do have a serial killer. And Ted, by his own admission, 66 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 1: he was well versed in how police operate, well versed 67 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 1: in forensics, and that may be even more difficult for 68 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 1: or police. He round him up. And then on top 69 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 1: of that, he was able to be a chameleon of sorts. 70 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 1: He blended in. He could change his appearance pretty much 71 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 1: at will. And then they had different descriptions of his car, 72 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:15,599 Speaker 1: something with ron and said it was tans. So he 73 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 1: had a lot of stuff in the black of a 74 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: better words going for him to allow him to keep 75 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 1: going on with this. Ted Bundy, the name alone strikes 76 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 1: fear in the hearts of so many listened to Rhonda's 77 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:32,599 Speaker 1: stately a young college student who accepts a ride from 78 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:36,599 Speaker 1: a handsome stranger, listen to what she tells. Doctor Phil 79 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:40,280 Speaker 1: and Miss tan vul Dragon drove by very slowly. Q 80 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 1: driver kind of looked at music went passed, and then 81 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: he stopped and backed up and leaned over and rolled 82 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 1: down the passenger window and asked me where I was going. 83 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:49,720 Speaker 1: I told him I was going up to the you 84 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:53,039 Speaker 1: and he said me too, hop in. So I opened 85 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:56,279 Speaker 1: the door and got in. The first thing that I 86 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 1: noticed was that inside passenger door handle was missing, and 87 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:01,919 Speaker 1: he leaned over and pulled the door shut. But I 88 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:05,799 Speaker 1: wasn't alarmed. I figured college kid, college car, things fall off. 89 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 1: He was dressed nice, had a green pull over sweater on, 90 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: nice slacks, lighthearted. We just had the normal conversation that 91 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: strangers would have. I told him my name's Rhonda and 92 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: I'm a pharmacy student. What are you studying? He told 93 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 1: me his name was Ted and he was a law student. 94 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:24,599 Speaker 1: In just a couple of blocks he turned away. That 95 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 1: wasn't the normal route to the university, and I asked 96 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: him about that, and he was very polite and asked 97 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:32,599 Speaker 1: my permission if it would be all right if he 98 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 1: took a little detour. He told me had to run 99 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: an errand up by the zoo, and I told him 100 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 1: that would be fine. I didn't care. I thought I 101 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:40,720 Speaker 1: would still be home faster than if I had waited 102 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 1: for the bus. And then we went right on past 103 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: the zoo and I said, hey, I thought we were 104 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: taking me to the zoo, and he said no. I said, 105 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: near the zoo, that road goes over the hill and 106 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 1: drops down into Parley's Canyon, which is the main highway 107 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:56,800 Speaker 1: back into the city. And the steady turned left and 108 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:00,599 Speaker 1: started driving up another canyon. And as he's driving, he's 109 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 1: kind of looking at parking places and side roads. The 110 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:07,600 Speaker 1: conversation started to go weird then, because he stopped talking 111 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 1: to me, and I'm still trying to make idle conversation, 112 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 1: and I'm thinking that he's probably looking for a place 113 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 1: to pull off in park and wants to make out. 114 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: And I don't know him, and I'm not really a 115 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 1: makeout person, but he's still cute law student and I 116 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: want to him, and I don't want to embarrass myself, 117 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 1: so I'm thinking of how do I get out of 118 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 1: this situation. And then he pulled into a parking place 119 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 1: and parked the car and turned it off, and then 120 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 1: he turned into the car seat, so he's kind of 121 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: facing me, and he leaned in really close. I thought 122 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 1: he was going to kiss me. Instead, he said, very quietly, 123 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 1: do you know what? I'm going to kill you? And 124 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 1: he put his hands on my throat and started squeezing. 125 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 1: My first thought was has to be some kind of 126 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:53,559 Speaker 1: a joke. This guy's got the weirdest sense of humor. 127 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: But that was just maybe a fraction of a second 128 00:07:56,440 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 1: because I realized he was squeezing too tightly. He was 129 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 1: serious and I was in trouble, and there's no door handle. 130 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 1: What did you do? I had a little small battle 131 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: in the car, but I went unconscious. Did you put 132 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 1: up a fight? I did as much of the fight 133 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 1: as you can put up when you're running out of air. 134 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 1: Did you think at that point I'm gonna die? You 135 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 1: were hearing who was then a young college student, Rhonda Stapley, 136 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 1: describing her encounter with Ted Bundy. She lived to tell 137 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:35,680 Speaker 1: the tale to Peter Vronsky, serial killer historian. There are 138 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 1: so many aspects of what she said. He uses his charm, 139 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 1: his affability to many people, good looks, his status as 140 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:51,320 Speaker 1: a law student to impress a young girl. She believes. 141 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 1: It's almost as if her eyes in her mind are 142 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 1: tricking her to what's really happening. Peter, Well, you know 143 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 1: that's what makes Ted I'm such a unique serial killer. 144 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:06,560 Speaker 1: We hadn't encountered one like that before. I mean, here was, 145 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 1: as you say, an affable, charming, intelligent, handsome young man. 146 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 1: It wasn't what we imagined. You know, even though we 147 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 1: didn't have the word serial killer itself, we knew that 148 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:25,839 Speaker 1: there were multiple killers like that, but not the kind 149 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:31,319 Speaker 1: of charmer that he was. Our usual concept of that 150 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 1: kind of killer was that they were kind of twitchy, reclusive, 151 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 1: repulsive loaners that would pounce on the victim. So Ted 152 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 1: Bundy redefined, I think, in our perception what serial killers, 153 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:49,440 Speaker 1: the modern serial killer really is like or can be like. 154 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: He's right, Stephen Lampley, author of Outside Your Door Stephen 155 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:58,200 Speaker 1: ted Bundy really changed the world's perspective of a serial killer. 156 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: Because now, although Ted Money is not remotely attractive to meum, 157 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 1: many people find him to be to have dark, good looks. 158 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:12,440 Speaker 1: You know, he's God's thick head of wavy, dark brown hair, 159 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 1: soulful looking eyes, a good physique. He's clearly highly intelligent. 160 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 1: He could have done so much with his life. Instead 161 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:26,840 Speaker 1: he became a notorious serial killer. How do you think 162 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 1: or do you agree Stephen that he changed the world's 163 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 1: perception of serial killers? I do, I do, uh, you know. 164 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 1: And I find even today that people will come up 165 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 1: to me and they want to know because I had 166 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 1: my interaction with the Claremont killer, and he himself was 167 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 1: for the brief time that I spoke with him, he 168 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 1: himself was a very charming individual. I was spoken and 169 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 1: they appeared to be a very person that could be 170 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:55,439 Speaker 1: very well liked. And then did changed. It did change 171 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:58,680 Speaker 1: to the perspective. And it's like Peter said, people to 172 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:02,680 Speaker 1: expect serial killers to be for the most part, under 173 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: the bridge, knuckle dragging ogres, you know, with knives and 174 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 1: running around the neighborhood, and that's not the case. And 175 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 1: Ted been so much to change that perception. No one 176 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 1: really knows when or where Ted Bundy really began murdering women. 177 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 1: He's told so many different stories to so many different people, 178 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: and he has always refused to divulge exact facts of 179 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:30,440 Speaker 1: his earliest murders. Now he coun confessed in detail to 180 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 1: many other murders but we don't know when he began murdering. 181 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 1: But we do know. On January fourth, one of his 182 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 1: murders goes down in the middle of the night. He 183 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 1: enters the basement apartment of a young girl, a teen girl, 184 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:51,960 Speaker 1: Karen Sparks. She has been identified under different names in 185 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 1: different places. She's a student at UW and she's asleep. 186 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:01,840 Speaker 1: He bludgeons her senseless with a metal rod that he 187 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: gets from her bed frame, and then sexually assaults her, 188 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:13,440 Speaker 1: we believe, with the same rod, causing so many and 189 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 1: such extensive internal injuries from the sex assault. She remains 190 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 1: unconscious for ten days. She's in a coma. She's survived, 191 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 1: but with permanent disabilities now. Just a few days later, 192 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:34,720 Speaker 1: he breaks into the basement of Linda and Healey, another 193 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 1: UW undergrad who broadcasts a morning radio weather report for skiers. 194 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 1: He beats her unconscious, dresses her in blue jeans and 195 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:51,320 Speaker 1: white blouse and boots, and carries her away. Then female 196 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 1: college students begin to disappear about one a month around Olympia, Washington, 197 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:03,440 Speaker 1: and nobody knows what is going on. Right there, Peter 198 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 1: Vronsky what happens next? He becomes very mobile as as 199 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 1: he's uh, you know, flunking out in some of his courses, 200 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 1: he switches universities. Um, he crosses state lines. So nobody 201 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 1: is connecting these murders that he's committing. And you know, 202 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 1: for Ted, it's not about the murder, it's about possessing 203 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 1: these these victims. He wants to disable the victim as 204 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:37,840 Speaker 1: quickly as possible. And you know, as another killer serial 205 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 1: killer once said, um, it wasn't that I wanted to 206 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 1: kill them. I wanted to a victim from their bodies. Um. 207 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: So you know, he is a collector essentially. In fact, 208 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 1: he described his murders as possessing his victims, he said, 209 00:13:56,120 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 1: physically as one would possess a potted plant, a painting, 210 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:05,440 Speaker 1: or a porsche, you know. So for him it was 211 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:13,199 Speaker 1: control over a body. He is just obsessed with this collection. 212 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:17,320 Speaker 1: And the problem, of course is he's a necrophile. So 213 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 1: there's an expiry date on the bodies, and after a 214 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 1: few days, as the body decomposes, he becomes repulsed by 215 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 1: it and he needs to move on, so find another body. 216 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: And that's kind of a spiral that he gets into. 217 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 1: How do we know, Peter Vronsky that Ted Bundy in 218 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 1: addition to being a burglar, rapist, and murderer. Why do 219 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 1: you say he was a necrophile? Well, because he himself 220 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 1: he confessed that he would return back to the grave 221 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 1: sites um sometimes after work, and that he would spend 222 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 1: the night with the courts, you know, until the course 223 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 1: became repulsive to as well, he brought the head's home 224 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 1: of some of his victims. At least half of his 225 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 1: victims were beheaded, you know. In one case, he brought 226 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 1: a head home to the apartment of his girlfriend when 227 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 1: she wasn't there, and after he was finished with the head, 228 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 1: he burned it in her fireplace. Ah. You may even 229 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 1: noticed a long pause because I thought I knew a 230 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 1: lot about Bundy, but I did not know that. I 231 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: did not know he severed the heads of victims, and 232 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 1: I did not know specifically that he brought one home 233 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 1: to his girlfriend's home and burned it in the fireplace. 234 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 1: Peter Vronsky, author of Sons of Kine, History of serial Killers, 235 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:50,600 Speaker 1: Why what was his fascination with dead women's bodies? Well, 236 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 1: you know, for serial killers, they say that the primary 237 00:15:55,640 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 1: motive for a serial killer is control, control over the victim, 238 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 1: and so the ultimate control that one can have, of course, 239 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 1: is once you've killed the victim and you possess their 240 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 1: their their body. There's no greater control than that, short 241 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 1: of cannibalism and and and certainly that's another trait, although 242 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 1: I don't think Ted Bundy, um, you know, participated in cannibalism. 243 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 1: But that's another example of taking control over over the victim. 244 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:28,479 Speaker 1: He not only brought the heads home, but he also 245 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 1: would apply makeup on some of the corpses, he would 246 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 1: wash their hair, he would model them essentially in the 247 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 1: way he wanted to. So it's it's all about the control. 248 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 1: Did you know about a recent law that could leave 249 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 1: your personal data exposed online for anybody to find? 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We're talking about one 268 00:17:56,840 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 1: of the most prolific serial killers ever known in American history. 269 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:06,960 Speaker 1: It's Ted Bundy, who is synonymous with attractive, good looks, 270 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:11,879 Speaker 1: charm and debonair anything. But it's the stark truth of 271 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:18,119 Speaker 1: Ted Bundy. You're hearing stories, true stories from Peter Vronsky, 272 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:21,920 Speaker 1: serial killer historian and author of Sons of Kane History 273 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 1: of serial Killers from Stone Age to Present, and Stephen Lampley, 274 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:32,160 Speaker 1: highly regarded police veteran SVU detective author of Outside Your Door, 275 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:35,679 Speaker 1: both of these books on Amazon dot com. Peter, you 276 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 1: were just describing how Ted Bundy would keep many of 277 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 1: the victims' bodies, bathe them, wash their hair, apply makeup 278 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 1: on them. True facts about Ted Bundy are horrific to me. 279 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 1: Stephen Lampley. I mean, you guys are saying, oh, I 280 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:58,200 Speaker 1: don't know how genius he was. He managed to evade 281 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 1: the police for quite a long time. He had two 282 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 1: at least we know of two series our murders. The 283 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:08,120 Speaker 1: last one I was talking about in the Pacific Northwest, 284 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 1: female college students disappearing at about one a month. Nobody 285 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 1: could figure it out. There was Donna Gail Manson, a 286 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 1: nineteen year old at Evergreen State College in Olympia, Susan 287 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:25,640 Speaker 1: Elaine Rancourt. We talked about, I mean, it goes on 288 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 1: and on. Then facts began sifting through about a Volkswagen 289 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:36,920 Speaker 1: Beetle at ten VW. Then Roberta Kathleen Parks left her 290 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 1: dorm at Oregon State University to have coffee with friends, 291 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 1: and she never arrived. Another girl goes missing. Apart from 292 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:52,199 Speaker 1: being young and pretty, college students with long hair are 293 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 1: parted in the middle. No one could really get a 294 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: better connection. So one woman recalled a man coming up 295 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:03,399 Speaker 1: to her asking her to help him carry a case 296 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:08,439 Speaker 1: to his car. A light brown VW that he was 297 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 1: struggling because he had his arm in a cast. Stephen Lampley, 298 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:18,680 Speaker 1: he's clearly tricking all these women. He also tricked the police. True, 299 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 1: I mean that's what, that's what one of the dead 300 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 1: Dungdees traits. He did that very well. He's a very 301 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 1: charming individual and he approached strangers. He didn't need intentionally 302 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 1: avoiding people that he knew that he had probably met before. 303 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 1: But he who was a very charming individual, and he 304 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 1: used that guy with the fake army. At one point 305 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 1: he even used crutches and a cast on his leg 306 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:43,440 Speaker 1: that he made from plaster of Paris in order to 307 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,920 Speaker 1: win the confidence of these women. Would you please help me? 308 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 1: And of course he was a you know, a as 309 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,439 Speaker 1: most people would say, a good looking gentleman law students, 310 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:54,640 Speaker 1: and they were more than happy to advise, which made 311 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 1: his ability to grab victims relatively easy. You know right now, 312 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 1: I mean, there's such around warranted or not around Bundy. 313 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 1: His Volkswagen Beetle, where he committed so many of his crimes, 314 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:13,120 Speaker 1: is currently on display at the National Museum of Crime 315 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:17,920 Speaker 1: and Punishment. Then we start seeing similarities between the victims, 316 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 1: the disappearances take place at night. Within a week of exams. 317 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:27,719 Speaker 1: The victims are always wearing slacks or blue jeans. There 318 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: were sightings in the area where people would go missing 319 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:34,360 Speaker 1: of a man wearing a cast or sling driving a 320 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 1: brown or ten VW a beatle. Then came the broad 321 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:46,360 Speaker 1: daylight abductions east of Seattle. Witnesses describe an attractive young 322 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:49,919 Speaker 1: man in a white tennis outfit with a left arm 323 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: in a sling, speaking with perhaps a British or Canadian accent, 324 00:21:56,400 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 1: introducing himself as Ted and asking for help and loading 325 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 1: a sailboat from his VW four refused one one as 326 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:10,200 Speaker 1: far as his car saw there was no sailboat, and ran. 327 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 1: Four hours later. Denise Marie Naslin, just nineteen years old, 328 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:20,520 Speaker 1: left a picnic to go to the bathroom and never 329 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:27,399 Speaker 1: comes back. What finally made Ted Bundy stop and that 330 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 1: series of brutal murders, Peter Vronsky, Well, you know what 331 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: made was he never stopped though you know he that 332 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 1: day at the beach, he actually had kidnapped two women. 333 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 1: And in fact, that was the first time that authorities 334 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:49,679 Speaker 1: clued in that you know, there was somebody called Ted 335 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:53,680 Speaker 1: out there because he had approached several women he left 336 00:22:53,680 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 1: behind witnesses. In this case he kidnapped. One woman was 337 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:06,920 Speaker 1: actually a probation officer, and you know, he appeared so vulnerable, 338 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:11,919 Speaker 1: so helpless, that these women just felt so sorry for 339 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:17,680 Speaker 1: him that they you know, helped them. One actually later said, 340 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 1: you know, before she kind of didn't have the time 341 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 1: to help him, that she had hoped that maybe he 342 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,399 Speaker 1: would take her out on that sale boat one you know, 343 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:31,160 Speaker 1: later in the day. So that's the first break authorities get. 344 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 1: You know, you have to remember that the nineteen seventies, 345 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: people were not really as aware of serial killers as 346 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:43,119 Speaker 1: we are today. The FBI is only you know, the 347 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:47,959 Speaker 1: so called mine hunters have only started interviewing serial killers 348 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,160 Speaker 1: inside of prisons to ask them what they're doing. So 349 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:56,439 Speaker 1: jurisdictions didn't really have even the kind of communication nets 350 00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 1: that they have today. You know, most departments didn't use 351 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 1: computers the way we do today. They were very expensive, 352 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 1: so information didn't cross. Was called linkage blindness. So you know, 353 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 1: it wasn't really that long that he went under I'm 354 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 1: apprehended was about eighteen months, which today would you know, 355 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 1: not a long time really, So it was those kidnappings 356 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:30,240 Speaker 1: at the Park that really alerted authorities to his method, 357 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:33,399 Speaker 1: to the possibility of an individual by the name of 358 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:40,480 Speaker 1: Ted in that colored folkswagon, and very slowly various jurisdictions 359 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:44,520 Speaker 1: began sharing information with each other. This is the irony 360 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 1: Peter Vronsky, author of Sons of Cain, Because the Kings 361 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 1: County police got a detailed description of a suspect in 362 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 1: his car, and they posted flyers all around Seattle, including 363 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 1: a composite sketch. It was an the newspapers, on TV 364 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 1: stations and all right, then Elizabeth Kletford and Rule, who 365 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 1: we were discussing earlier, a des employee, She actually was 366 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 1: on a man to suicide hotline with Ted Bundy and Rule, 367 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 1: who became the great prolific criminal true crime writer and 368 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:27,880 Speaker 1: a UW psychology professor all recognized the profile, the sketch, 369 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 1: the car and reported Bundy as a suspect. And guess 370 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,840 Speaker 1: what happened. Detectives were getting about two hundred tips a day, 371 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 1: and they just couldn't take in that a clean cut 372 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 1: laws unit with no criminal history at all could be 373 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 1: the perpetrator, and he continued killing. That happened, Peter, you know, 374 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 1: and Rule at first actually couldn't believe that Ted Bundy 375 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 1: was guilty, and a lot of people who worked with 376 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 1: Ted would joke when they saw the composite and laugh, 377 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:08,400 Speaker 1: you know, well, isn't your name Ted? You look like 378 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 1: the guy in the composite photo, and don't you drive 379 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:17,440 Speaker 1: a folkswagon? But Ted's personality was he had such a 380 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 1: mask of sanity that nobody could actually believe despite all 381 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:28,680 Speaker 1: this evidence linking him to you know, that suspect, nobody 382 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:33,400 Speaker 1: could imagine Ted being a murderer. He was just too 383 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:37,479 Speaker 1: much like us. I think that's why people are so 384 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:42,720 Speaker 1: interested in Ted Bundy, because, unlike many other serial killers, 385 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:46,600 Speaker 1: he had the same kind of ambitions that we did. 386 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 1: You know, he was a middle class, ambitious, intelligence, studious 387 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:57,439 Speaker 1: member of society. He was among us. He was on 388 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:01,919 Speaker 1: the inside, to the point that even when police began 389 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,679 Speaker 1: to get a very good composite of who this suspect 390 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 1: was and people were recognizing him, they still could not 391 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:13,440 Speaker 1: see through his personality to the real truth, to the 392 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 1: monster that lay beneath that facade that he had put up. Well, 393 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:22,080 Speaker 1: then he moves on. He gets a second acceptance from 394 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 1: University of Utah Law School. He moves to Salt Lake City, 395 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,680 Speaker 1: and he leaves Seattle and all of his murder victims behind. 396 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 1: He was dating at least a dozen women at a time, 397 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:38,120 Speaker 1: according to what we've learned in law school the first year. 398 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:41,439 Speaker 1: This is his second time around first year law school. 399 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,639 Speaker 1: It hit him. Now. People believe that Bundy was brilliant, 400 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 1: but he was personally devastated when he could not keep 401 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,919 Speaker 1: up with the one L curriculum. And I've got to 402 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:58,159 Speaker 1: tell you, having been there, Stephen Lampley, I studied so much. 403 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:00,440 Speaker 1: I would even study when I was taking a bath. 404 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 1: If you look at my criminal law book from first year, 405 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:08,480 Speaker 1: there's watermarks all along the side pages where I would 406 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:13,240 Speaker 1: turn the pages. Sometimes I would have to read one sentence. 407 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 1: Of course, the sentence could be a whole paragraph, but 408 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:19,119 Speaker 1: over and over so I would could make sure I 409 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 1: understood it. Then I quickly got to the point where 410 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 1: after reading one paragraph, I'd have to write a note 411 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 1: and the column of the page on the side explaining 412 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 1: to me in my words, what that paragraph just said. 413 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:36,879 Speaker 1: And then I go through the whole Supreme Court opinion 414 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:38,800 Speaker 1: that way, and then go back through and read my 415 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 1: own notes so I could understand fully what I had 416 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 1: just read, so it's overwhelming. A lot of the legal 417 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:51,680 Speaker 1: terms are in Latin. So Bundy basically nutted up because 418 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 1: he could not keep up with the first year of 419 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 1: law school. Stephen, Yeah, I mean he suf admitted that 420 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 1: he had trouble keeping up with the other students and 421 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 1: that he himself had had a relatively low self esteem 422 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 1: and not a good outlook on himself anyway. So the 423 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:12,240 Speaker 1: fact that he was not able to keep up by 424 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 1: his own self admission, like I said, it made it 425 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 1: hard on him and that could possibly have been one 426 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 1: of the triggers that they didn't starting to be kept 427 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 1: him going in this carnage well, and also that frustration. 428 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:27,959 Speaker 1: I mean, how canny kid up when he's committing murders 429 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,880 Speaker 1: and hiding the evidence. I mean he then killed an 430 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 1: unnamed hitchhiker, then got rid of the body or went 431 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 1: back the next day to photograph and dismember the body. 432 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,720 Speaker 1: Then there is a change. He kidnaps a sixteen year 433 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 1: old girl, Nancy Wilcox, near Salt Lake City, drags her 434 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 1: off into the woods, and he tries to change his 435 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,280 Speaker 1: m O. He wants to just rape her and then 436 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 1: release her. He says he accidentally strangled her dead trying 437 00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:02,320 Speaker 1: to make her stop screaming. Her remains, to my understanding, 438 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 1: were never found. If he's to be believed, her remainder 439 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 1: somewhere near the Capitol Reef National Park. Then it goes on. 440 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,640 Speaker 1: Then there's a seventeen year old daughter of a police 441 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 1: chief in Midvale, Melissa and Smith, just turn seventeen, disappears 442 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:26,959 Speaker 1: leaving a pizza parlor. She's found naked and dead in 443 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 1: a mountainous area nine days later, and the post mortem 444 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 1: reveals she remained alive up to seven days after she disappears. 445 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 1: What does that mean to Peter Vronsky, author of Sons 446 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 1: of King He kept her alive for seven days after 447 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 1: he kidnapped her. Well, you know, serial killers, for many 448 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 1: of them, it's kind of a learning process. So he's 449 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:56,959 Speaker 1: probably testing out his various fantasies, you know what. You know, 450 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 1: the method kind of changes, but the signal, sure, the 451 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:06,959 Speaker 1: inner psychological motive that's driving the crime always stays the 452 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 1: same um And in this case it's it's still control 453 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 1: over the victim UM. So Ted might be experimenting at 454 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:19,560 Speaker 1: this point to seeing whether he can perhaps keep a 455 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:24,920 Speaker 1: victim alive rather than necessarily enjoying them when they're dead. Um. 456 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 1: So serial killers will shift and change in how they 457 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 1: commit the crime, but the reasons will always be the same. UM. 458 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:39,600 Speaker 1: And again it's it's control over the victim. UM. So 459 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's essentially you know, he's he's like 460 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:48,680 Speaker 1: his fantasy of being a lawyer, or like his fantasy 461 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 1: of having the perfect girlfriend. Um. You know, we often 462 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 1: see that the beginning of his killings when he starts 463 00:31:56,280 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 1: occur shortly after he wins back his law love. This 464 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:05,240 Speaker 1: girl he was dating who broke up with him, and 465 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:10,200 Speaker 1: then he reconquered her, and once she kind of reconquered 466 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,440 Speaker 1: her to return to him, he then drops her because 467 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 1: the fantasy is much better than the reality. So that's 468 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:21,680 Speaker 1: often how they get into that cereal pattern. So he's 469 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 1: testing all these different things, but at the bottom of 470 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 1: all everything is always his need to control the victim 471 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 1: and possess It's all about possession and control. We're talking 472 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 1: a lot about the so called genius of cereal killer 473 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 1: Ted Bundy. He was really nothing more than a killer 474 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:44,640 Speaker 1: and a necrophile, obsessed with his victim's dead bodies. But 475 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 1: what about the victims of Ted Bundy listen to the 476 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 1: family of Susan Rancourt. So her roommates right where something 477 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:58,239 Speaker 1: was right, said well where did she go last night? 478 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 1: And said while she went to a dorm leaders eating 479 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 1: and was on our way back to this dorm room 480 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:09,959 Speaker 1: and never came back. This is where we where. He 481 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 1: objected her she had to walk through this to get 482 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:17,240 Speaker 1: to her dorm. I would be obsessed with searching for her. 483 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 1: She had bright yellow ski coat. I would just look 484 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 1: for that, and everywhere we went, I found myself looking 485 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 1: in fields and ditches for this yellow ski jacket to 486 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:29,120 Speaker 1: stick out like a sore thumb, and I'd be able 487 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 1: to say a founder, And we lived for a long time. 488 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,560 Speaker 1: We are talking about the so called evil genius, a 489 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:44,320 Speaker 1: prolific serial killer Ted Bundy, his killing spree across the country. Continued. 490 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 1: How Peter Vronsky, author of Sons of Cain, was he 491 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:53,760 Speaker 1: ultimately captured. Well, you know that's the amazing part of 492 00:33:53,760 --> 00:34:00,600 Speaker 1: it that sometimes it's a random alert police officer breaks 493 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 1: the case, not realizing you know who he has under arrest. 494 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:13,040 Speaker 1: Ted Bundy attracts the attention of an officer who sees 495 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:18,960 Speaker 1: his vehicle. He doesn't appear to belong there. He pulls 496 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:23,359 Speaker 1: him over, you know. He In fact, I think, if 497 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:27,000 Speaker 1: I'm not mistaken, that the police officers suspected that he 498 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:31,040 Speaker 1: might have a DUI case. Yeah. I was a Utah 499 00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:35,480 Speaker 1: Highway patrol officer in Granger, which is near Salt Lake City, 500 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,360 Speaker 1: and he saw a Bundy cruising a residential area in 501 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:42,040 Speaker 1: the early early morning hours, got suspicious, and when he 502 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 1: pulled up behind him, Bundy took off. Yeah, he didn't 503 00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 1: even know Bundy was doing anything wrong. And then when 504 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:53,080 Speaker 1: Bundy took off a speeding when he saw the patrol car, 505 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:55,879 Speaker 1: there's nothing that gets under cop skin. Then you take 506 00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,160 Speaker 1: off at ninety mph when all they do is just 507 00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:01,120 Speaker 1: pull up behind you, you know. So of course they 508 00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 1: chased him. And then when they get him, he sees 509 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:08,759 Speaker 1: the cop sees the VWAT front passenger seat was removed 510 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 1: and put on the back seats. There was a ski mask, 511 00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:16,440 Speaker 1: a second mask fashioned from pantyhose. I mean, come on, 512 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:20,920 Speaker 1: Stephen Lampley, a guy's carrying around a pantyhose mask and 513 00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 1: that doesn't get you. And the pair of handcuffs in 514 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 1: an ice pick, I think as well, and rout yeah, 515 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:30,440 Speaker 1: and burglary tools. I mean, and it's supported about the handcuffs. 516 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:35,080 Speaker 1: Stephen Lampley, author of Outside Your Door on Amazon. Because 517 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 1: Steve he had changes mo he had lost the fake 518 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:42,319 Speaker 1: cast and the crutches we were talking about. Then he 519 00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 1: began impersonating a police officer and with handcuff the vict 520 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:48,520 Speaker 1: In fact, the first time that we know of, the 521 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,560 Speaker 1: first time he tried it, he accidentally put the cuffs 522 00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 1: on one victims, both of them on one wrist, and 523 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,640 Speaker 1: she got away and in the parking lot they found 524 00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 1: the key to the cuffs. All right, remember that after 525 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:02,640 Speaker 1: a drama practice or something one evening, a teen girl. 526 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:06,360 Speaker 1: So now these handcuffs are taking on a whole new 527 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:11,279 Speaker 1: meaning and significance. So what about this? What about it? 528 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,200 Speaker 1: Stephen Lampley? You know, it reminds me so much of 529 00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:18,840 Speaker 1: Timothy McVeigh. You know, the Okay City bomber. He was 530 00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:23,480 Speaker 1: pulled over some traffic issue. Same thing here. What about it, Steve, Well, 531 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:27,160 Speaker 1: it happens, you know, the sort of related. Of course, 532 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:30,560 Speaker 1: they didn't arrest Jeffrey who Jeffrey Dahmer had committed his 533 00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 1: first homicide of Stephen Hicks and had was going to 534 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,319 Speaker 1: take him to the dump and had him in the 535 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,520 Speaker 1: back seat of his trying trash bags when the police 536 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:43,359 Speaker 1: stopped him. Of course, now in that case, unfortunately they 537 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:45,800 Speaker 1: did not take it to the next step and then actually, 538 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 1: you know, look into trash bags and why would they 539 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,520 Speaker 1: you know, it was trash. But it happens a lot 540 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:55,040 Speaker 1: of times these criminals. In the twenty one years I 541 00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:58,080 Speaker 1: was I was a police officer, we would see people 542 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:00,920 Speaker 1: that would have felony warrants and we wanted for some 543 00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:05,360 Speaker 1: preheenous stuff driving around with expired tags and one headlight, 544 00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:10,800 Speaker 1: so you really never know expired tag and missing headlight. Well, 545 00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:15,319 Speaker 1: Bundy manages to explain some of this away when he's 546 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:19,279 Speaker 1: caught cruising that residential area. He explains a ski mask 547 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,320 Speaker 1: was for skiing, he had found the handcuffs in a dumpster, 548 00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:27,680 Speaker 1: and the rest were just household items. Now, the detective, 549 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,520 Speaker 1: it was Jerry Thompson, remembered a similar suspect and car 550 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:37,040 Speaker 1: description from the Daaunch kidnapping and he became suspicious. He 551 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:41,359 Speaker 1: searched Bundy's apartment. He found a guy to Colorado Ski 552 00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:45,080 Speaker 1: Resorts with a check mark by the wild Wood in 553 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:49,959 Speaker 1: and a brochure about a Vermont High School play where 554 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:55,080 Speaker 1: Deborah Kent had gone missing. But still that wasn't enough 555 00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:58,960 Speaker 1: to arrest him. They let him go r R released 556 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:03,840 Speaker 1: on own recognin. We later find out the searchers missed 557 00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:10,759 Speaker 1: a whole stack of polaroid photographs of his victims. As 558 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:13,520 Speaker 1: soon as he released was released r O R. He 559 00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:19,320 Speaker 1: destroyed them, got rid of them. So what happens next? 560 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:23,360 Speaker 1: They put Bundy on twenty four hour surveillance and Thompson 561 00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:28,320 Speaker 1: detective Jerry Thompson flies to Seattle with detectives to interview people, 562 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:32,040 Speaker 1: and they find out so much. They find out that 563 00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:36,799 Speaker 1: in the year before he moved away, discovered in his 564 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:42,360 Speaker 1: home his apartment he rented from someone were crutches, a 565 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:46,279 Speaker 1: bag of plaster of Paris and a meat cleaver that 566 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:51,280 Speaker 1: he never used for cooking, surgical gloves, an oriental knife, 567 00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:59,280 Speaker 1: and a sackful of women's clothing. What about that, Peter Vronsky, 568 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:03,560 Speaker 1: I mean just screams out evidence. Well, you know, certainly 569 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:09,480 Speaker 1: the plaster of Paris, of course, would connect him to 570 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:12,600 Speaker 1: the use of a fake cast that he wore in 571 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:18,319 Speaker 1: luring women into his vehicle. He would also use it 572 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:22,080 Speaker 1: as a way to knock them unconscious once they turned 573 00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:27,640 Speaker 1: their back on him. So very slowly police start making 574 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:33,880 Speaker 1: these connections to various cases that we're unsolved in their jurisdictions. 575 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:37,839 Speaker 1: On top of that, you have to remember that Ted 576 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:41,560 Speaker 1: Bundy's girlfriend, even though she continued to have a relationship 577 00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:45,800 Speaker 1: with him, she was sending this information to the police already. 578 00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:52,279 Speaker 1: And and so now police start backtracking and looking in 579 00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:56,600 Speaker 1: much closer detail now that they had targeted, you know, 580 00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:59,799 Speaker 1: who the individual was at, the kind of reports there were, 581 00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:03,680 Speaker 1: and so they were able to time, of course much better. 582 00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:08,319 Speaker 1: When Ted possessed this this plaster of of of you know, 583 00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:11,960 Speaker 1: this this medical plaster um which he was stealing. He 584 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,720 Speaker 1: was working as at one point uh in a medical 585 00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:20,799 Speaker 1: distribution company. In fact, some of the tools that he 586 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:24,800 Speaker 1: used on his victims were medical tools that he stole 587 00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:28,400 Speaker 1: from the delivery company that he worked for. So very 588 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:32,840 Speaker 1: slowly they began to assemble all this evidence that began 589 00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:36,880 Speaker 1: to look in the perspective of what they now knew 590 00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:39,240 Speaker 1: in the you know, they gave them a fresh approach 591 00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:42,520 Speaker 1: to it. And and um, you know, the first charges 592 00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:46,520 Speaker 1: I think that were preferred against Um Bundy was that 593 00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:50,800 Speaker 1: of kidnapping in the Darran case. Uh, that's where it 594 00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:55,120 Speaker 1: kind of begins. Yeah, because that you're exactly correct, big mistake. 595 00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:59,680 Speaker 1: Bundy sells as VWU to attain in Midvale, Utah. Police 596 00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:02,920 Speaker 1: aren't suspicious of him, get the car, and the FBI 597 00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:07,720 Speaker 1: breaks it apart. They find hair matching samples from Karen 598 00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:11,560 Speaker 1: Campbell's body. They also I D hairstrands. It seemed to 599 00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:17,480 Speaker 1: be those of Carol Drank and Melissa Smith. Then they 600 00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:21,839 Speaker 1: put him in a lineup and Drank immediately identifies him 601 00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:28,120 Speaker 1: as quote Officer Roseland now Stephen lamplay Peter Vronsky, and 602 00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:30,960 Speaker 1: why don't you tell me why the victim who lived 603 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:34,640 Speaker 1: to you know, live through an attimpt to kidnapping ideed 604 00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:39,399 Speaker 1: him as Officer Roseland well, here's some insight for us 605 00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:43,279 Speaker 1: into just you know, he's not a genius, but he's 606 00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:48,160 Speaker 1: very cunning. He has an animal like cunning. And so 607 00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:52,319 Speaker 1: what Bundy had done in the Duran cases, he had 608 00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:56,280 Speaker 1: stalked her into the parking lot of a shopping mall. 609 00:41:56,920 --> 00:42:00,080 Speaker 1: He knew what kind of car she was driving, and 610 00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,439 Speaker 1: then he followed her into the mall and approached her 611 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:08,560 Speaker 1: posing as a police officer, telling her that there appeared 612 00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:12,440 Speaker 1: to be a break in in her car. He flashed 613 00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:15,719 Speaker 1: a tiny fake badge when she asked him to see 614 00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:20,360 Speaker 1: his identification. UM. Again, he looked clean cut, there was 615 00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:23,759 Speaker 1: nothing odd about him, and so she followed him out 616 00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:29,520 Speaker 1: into the parking lot. UM. He then lured her away 617 00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,440 Speaker 1: from her car, telling her that he would like her 618 00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:36,320 Speaker 1: to fill out a report that they had actually arrested 619 00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:39,359 Speaker 1: the person who had attempted to break into her car. 620 00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:42,560 Speaker 1: And and so she ended up following him into his 621 00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:47,759 Speaker 1: own vehicle. UM. And and that's when he tried to 622 00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:51,200 Speaker 1: snap these handcuffs on her, and of course ended up 623 00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:56,160 Speaker 1: putting both cuffs on her wrist, and she managed to flee, 624 00:42:56,160 --> 00:43:01,280 Speaker 1: flee the vehicle. But you know, very slowly. That's how 625 00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:05,880 Speaker 1: he would work. He would lure his victims in in 626 00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:08,279 Speaker 1: in that way. And here you had one that survived. 627 00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:11,680 Speaker 1: And so we got, you know, some insight into actually 628 00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:17,000 Speaker 1: how he worked, how he would gradually find a victim. 629 00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:21,840 Speaker 1: He probably approached many women in that mall, some refused 630 00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:25,040 Speaker 1: perhaps to go with him. Here was one who followed, 631 00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:28,440 Speaker 1: you know, a law buying citizen. You know, when someone 632 00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:31,560 Speaker 1: comes to you and says, especially in the seventies, they're 633 00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:36,200 Speaker 1: a police officer, they look like they could be one 634 00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:39,920 Speaker 1: immediately kind of with a respect for authority, you know 635 00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:46,040 Speaker 1: Salt Lake City. Uh, you know in that region, people 636 00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:51,440 Speaker 1: are more conservative, more respect over authorities. So he used 637 00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:55,480 Speaker 1: that to lure his victims in that case. Stephen Lampley 638 00:43:55,680 --> 00:44:00,960 Speaker 1: please vet author of Outside Your Door on Amazon. Stephen. 639 00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:07,879 Speaker 1: How did Bundy manage to escape more than once? Well, 640 00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:10,040 Speaker 1: I'm not familiar with the second escape. I do know 641 00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:13,120 Speaker 1: he did escape twice. One of the times was when 642 00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:16,360 Speaker 1: he wanted to act as his own attorney, and of 643 00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:19,080 Speaker 1: course the judge allowed that, and one of the conditions 644 00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:21,480 Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know that Ted made the 645 00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:24,759 Speaker 1: condition or the judge just you know, said take the 646 00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:27,719 Speaker 1: cuffs off, take the leg shackles off, because he is 647 00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:32,000 Speaker 1: now quote unquote an attorney. So Ted then wanted to 648 00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:36,399 Speaker 1: research some information on his case and ask permission to 649 00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:39,120 Speaker 1: use the law library or the library at the courthouse, 650 00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:42,799 Speaker 1: which they granted. Well, he went behind a bookshelf that 651 00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:46,640 Speaker 1: was obscured from view, lifted up the second floor window 652 00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:49,200 Speaker 1: of the courthouse, and jumped and escape that way. He 653 00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:52,120 Speaker 1: was very cunning, very very as Peter said, a very 654 00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:58,960 Speaker 1: cunning individual, very well organized and very thought amazing amazing. Yeah. Well, 655 00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:04,719 Speaker 1: he then ends up in Florida and the infamous FSU 656 00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:10,760 Speaker 1: kay Omega sorority house murders, you know, to Peter Vronsky, 657 00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:16,040 Speaker 1: he graduates from getting a single victim to actually going 658 00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:21,440 Speaker 1: in a sorority house and just going berserk. What happened 659 00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:26,560 Speaker 1: at FSU, Peter, Well, Ted Bundy is by now disintegrating. 660 00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:31,240 Speaker 1: He is no longer acting in that kind of organized way. 661 00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:35,839 Speaker 1: He's just looking for victims at random. And so he 662 00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:42,000 Speaker 1: comes onto this house on new a campus or on campus, 663 00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:48,640 Speaker 1: and he goes room to room, assaulting victims in those rooms, 664 00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:52,040 Speaker 1: battering them on the head with a club that he 665 00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:59,120 Speaker 1: had found, um, you know, at random upon entering the building. 666 00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:03,960 Speaker 1: So he's no longer the kind of organized, prepared serial killer. 667 00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:08,040 Speaker 1: He's in the disintegrating stage. It's almost, you know, the 668 00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:10,759 Speaker 1: way he kind of achieved his fantasy of getting into 669 00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:15,400 Speaker 1: law school and then disintegrated. Here he achieved his fantasy 670 00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:19,840 Speaker 1: of possessing victims, um, you know, becoming kind of a 671 00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:24,080 Speaker 1: serial killer. But the fantasy now was was no longer 672 00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:28,920 Speaker 1: you know, the reality wasn't as satisfying as the fantasy. 673 00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:32,960 Speaker 1: So he batters all these victims in that room. He 674 00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:39,759 Speaker 1: kills too, he uh seriously critically injures another I think 675 00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:45,440 Speaker 1: three other victims in that place. It's it's a mass attack. Um. 676 00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:51,160 Speaker 1: And it's it's completely at random, completely unplanned. Um. He 677 00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:54,680 Speaker 1: leaves behind you know a lot of evidence. Now, um, 678 00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:59,799 Speaker 1: and he'll kill one more time again. He'll he'll now 679 00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:04,880 Speaker 1: snatch a young schoolgirl. Um. There's a lot of witnesses 680 00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:09,160 Speaker 1: because he's hanging around, um, you know, the school he had. 681 00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:16,120 Speaker 1: He attempts to kidnap abduct another young woman, but her 682 00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:21,920 Speaker 1: brother intervenes. So he's getting sloppy. He is disintegrating, which 683 00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:25,640 Speaker 1: happens often with serial killers who are reaching that burnout 684 00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:30,719 Speaker 1: stage when you know, when they realize that, you know, 685 00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:35,279 Speaker 1: their fantasies were much more satisfying than the reality and 686 00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:39,840 Speaker 1: now what. Some may retire and you know, not commit 687 00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:43,319 Speaker 1: a crime until you know DNA evidence catches up to them, 688 00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:46,040 Speaker 1: like the Green River killing or you know, the Golden 689 00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:51,120 Speaker 1: State killer. Bundy is the other kind. He's the disintegrating kind. 690 00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:54,680 Speaker 1: It's not that he wants to get caught. You know 691 00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:57,680 Speaker 1: a lot of people think, wow, you know, serial killers 692 00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:00,520 Speaker 1: really want to get caught. It's not about that. It's 693 00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:05,839 Speaker 1: a complete disintegration all his relationship between his fantasies and 694 00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:10,880 Speaker 1: the reality, and Bundy is disintegrating in Florida now. The 695 00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:19,640 Speaker 1: interview that Ted Bundy gives very very revealing. Bundy himself 696 00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:25,200 Speaker 1: speaks too, in exclusively to the focus on family. President 697 00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:31,320 Speaker 1: James Dobson, Listen, are you thinking about all those victims 698 00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:34,880 Speaker 1: out there and their families well, who are so wounded? 699 00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:38,360 Speaker 1: You know, years later, their lives have not returned to normal, 700 00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:40,880 Speaker 1: They will never have returned to normal. About are you 701 00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:49,240 Speaker 1: carrying that load? That way? Is the remorse they again, 702 00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:52,520 Speaker 1: I know that people will accuse me being self serving, 703 00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:54,680 Speaker 1: but we're beyond that now. I mean, I'm just telling 704 00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:59,839 Speaker 1: you how I feel. But through God's help, I've been 705 00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:05,200 Speaker 1: able to come to the point where I've much too late, 706 00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:08,160 Speaker 1: but better late than never. Feel it hurt and the 707 00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:12,200 Speaker 1: pain that I am responsible for. Yes. Absolutely. In the 708 00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:15,239 Speaker 1: past few days, myself and a number of investigators have 709 00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:21,759 Speaker 1: been talking about unsolved cases murders that I was involved in, 710 00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:25,200 Speaker 1: and it's hard. It's hard to talk about all these 711 00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:27,960 Speaker 1: years later because it revives in me all those terrible 712 00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:38,239 Speaker 1: feelings and those thoughts that I have steadfastly and diligently 713 00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:41,479 Speaker 1: dealt with and I think successfully with the love of God. 714 00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:45,560 Speaker 1: And yet it's reopened that and I felt the pain, 715 00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:48,839 Speaker 1: and I've felt the horror again of all that. And 716 00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:55,439 Speaker 1: I can only hope that those who I've harmed, those 717 00:49:55,480 --> 00:50:00,719 Speaker 1: who I've caused so much grief, even if they don't 718 00:50:00,719 --> 00:50:10,080 Speaker 1: believe my expression of sorrow and remorse, we'll believe what 719 00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:15,520 Speaker 1: I'm saying now that there is loose in their towns, 720 00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:25,160 Speaker 1: in their communities, people like me today, whose dangerous impulses 721 00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:30,560 Speaker 1: are being fueled day in and day out by violence 722 00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:34,440 Speaker 1: in the media in its various forms, particularly sexualized violence. 723 00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:40,320 Speaker 1: Ted Bundy died in the Rafit electric chair seven sixteen 724 00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:48,239 Speaker 1: am EST on January twenty fourth. Morning. Outside death Row, 725 00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:55,840 Speaker 1: people were selling T shirts, drinking beer, basically having a 726 00:50:55,880 --> 00:51:00,040 Speaker 1: big party. I never felt the urged party at the 727 00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:03,479 Speaker 1: time of Bundy's death, but I can say this, Ted 728 00:51:03,560 --> 00:51:10,520 Speaker 1: Bundy wrought in help Nancy Grace Crime Story, signing off, 729 00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:18,239 Speaker 1: goodbye friend. Did you know a recent law can leave 730 00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:23,239 Speaker 1: your personal data exposed online for anybody to find? If 731 00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:25,720 Speaker 1: you've turned on the news lately, you know the Internet 732 00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:29,319 Speaker 1: has created a dangerous new world. It's time you take 733 00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:32,920 Speaker 1: back the power by using a new website called truth Finder. 734 00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:36,000 Speaker 1: Have you been issued a speeding ticket, received a lean 735 00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:39,640 Speaker 1: from the irs? Did you forget about an embarrassing social 736 00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:44,719 Speaker 1: media profile? That info may already be online. Truthfinder can 737 00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:48,920 Speaker 1: help you find it. Truthfinder searches millions of public records, 738 00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:54,040 Speaker 1: assembling the data together in one report. Members get unlimited searches, 739 00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:56,560 Speaker 1: so you can also look up those close to you 740 00:51:56,880 --> 00:52:00,839 Speaker 1: and make sure they're not hiding something. Visit truthfinder dot 741 00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:04,520 Speaker 1: com slash nancy, enter your own name, get started.