Speaker 1: Welcome to Go ask Alli, a production of Shonda Land
Speaker 1: Audio and partnership with iHeartRadio. When I have been with
Speaker 1: friends and that happened and I peed my pants, I
Speaker 1: did lose the room. They did leave. I saw her
Speaker 1: light up and I was like, I'm just going to work.
Speaker 1: But we are here until one of our last rips. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I was just the one that was meant to take
Speaker 1: care of mamma. It's for me to remember every single
Speaker 1: day is that I always have a choice. Everyone always
Speaker 1: has a choice. Whenever somebody says no, you can't, or
Speaker 1: there's no roles for you, or you have to look
Speaker 1: like this, I go. I'll show you. I'll show you.
Speaker 1: Welcome to Go ask Ally. I'm Allie Wentworth. So this
Speaker 1: is a very tricky subject, the subject of pornography. And
Speaker 1: to be very honest with you, I don't watch pornography.
Speaker 1: I never have. It's not something that I look for
Speaker 1: in my life. I have issues with it, particularly about
Speaker 1: the subjucation of women and my fear that it damages intimacy.
Speaker 1: And I call it a friend of mine recently and
Speaker 1: I said, is everybody watching pornography? I mean, I've been
Speaker 1: married for twenty one years and I haven't, and she said, oh, Ali, listen.
Speaker 1: First of all, pornography is pervasive, so you better get
Speaker 1: used to it. So I decided I need to delve
Speaker 1: into the subject a little bit because I am curious
Speaker 1: and I do want to learn. So for the sake
Speaker 1: of this podcast, the pornography we are discussing in this
Speaker 1: episode is ethical pornography people who want to be there,
Speaker 1: and I also want to know personally does pornography affect
Speaker 1: long term monogamous relationships? After all, it's a huge part
Speaker 1: of our culture, and there's nobody better to talk to.
Speaker 1: The doctor David Lay. He's a clinical psychologist, sex therapist,
Speaker 1: and author. He's written several books and research articles on sexuality,
Speaker 1: sex addiction, and pornography, including The Myth of Sex Addiction
Speaker 1: and Ethical porn for Dicks, A Man's Guide to Responsible
Speaker 1: Viewing Pleasure. Doctor Lay is a frequent guest in media,
Speaker 1: on television with Anderson Cooper, Katie Currek, Doctor Phil and others,
Speaker 1: and in print including The New York Times, CNN, and
Speaker 1: Time and Playboy magazines and now on Go Ask Galli
Speaker 1: the podcast. Well, first of all, thank you for being here,
Speaker 1: Doctor David Lay. Thank you for having they should be
Speaker 1: a fun chet Yeah. So you know, you've written such
Speaker 1: incredible books. And one of the things I was very
Speaker 1: cognizant of was when I started this podcast, there are
Speaker 1: so many different directions I can go in. And I
Speaker 1: realized recently as I was talking to women kind of
Speaker 1: my age let's say middle age, but let's just say
Speaker 1: forty and people women particularly, we're having the same conversations
Speaker 1: with me, which basically were is pornography okay in a
Speaker 1: long term monogamous relationship? And the interesting thing is when
Speaker 1: I talk to women, the majority of the women say
Speaker 1: it's not okay, I'm uncomfortable with it, blah blah blah.
Speaker 1: The men say, I see it as something completely different.
Speaker 1: I can compartmentalize it doesn't affect my relationship. And every
Speaker 1: one of my gay male friends says it's totally fine.
Speaker 1: It's part of our relationship. So I'm curious. Does pornography
Speaker 1: affect monogamous relationships? Kennet. It's a good question, Allie. At first,
Speaker 1: I think we have to acknowledge not all couples are
Speaker 1: the same as you. As you identified. We see this
Speaker 1: popping up for heterosexual couples. We don't see pornography being
Speaker 1: a problem or a conflict in LGBT couples. We also,
Speaker 1: interestingly don't see it as a problem in non monogamous couples.
Speaker 1: Non monogamous couples tend to use pornography more than monogamous
Speaker 1: couples and don't have any problems or consequences related to
Speaker 1: it for the most part. When we look at heterosexual couples,
Speaker 1: one of the things that we do find is that
Speaker 1: a hetero couple that watches porn together tend to have
Speaker 1: a healthier relationship, have more sex, have more novel sex,
Speaker 1: and have a healthier sexual relationship. Couples where one partner
Speaker 1: views pornography in a negative way, couples where one at
Speaker 1: least one partner has moral concerns about pornography are likely
Speaker 1: to have conflicts over pornography, so the pornography represents moral
Speaker 1: attitudes about sex. One of the things that I see
Speaker 1: when I work with couples where there is a conflict
Speaker 1: about pornography is that oftentimes one partner has the idea
Speaker 1: that watching pornography is a form of infidelity, that watching
Speaker 1: pornography is somehow demeaning to them or to others. Or
Speaker 1: that watching pornography creates a competition with the primary partner,
Speaker 1: such that one partner might feel like, well, you're watching
Speaker 1: people that look different than me or are more attractive
Speaker 1: than me, and so you're not attracted to me anymore. Well,
Speaker 1: one of the things I hear from women over and
Speaker 1: over again is what am I not enough? That is
Speaker 1: the number one thing I hear over and over. Am
Speaker 1: I not enough? Why does he or she need to
Speaker 1: go outside the relationship for arousal And I can't possibly
Speaker 1: compete with that idealized version of a sexual partner exactly.
Speaker 1: And one of the challenges is that couples are oftentimes
Speaker 1: not talking about that. Those attitudes or feelings are there,
Speaker 1: but the couple isn't sitting down and having a conversation
Speaker 1: about their attitudes about sex and masturbation. And that's also
Speaker 1: one of those super important things, because oftentimes couples will
Speaker 1: fight over pornography when actually what they're fighting over is masturbation,
Speaker 1: and most pornography is accompanied by masturbation, but we oftentimes
Speaker 1: forget to talk about that now. And I think it's
Speaker 1: important because one of the things that we see, particularly
Speaker 1: in heterosexual couples that have been together for a while
Speaker 1: and are monogamous. Is that as sex frequency goes down
Speaker 1: in men especially and in women to a degree, masturbation
Speaker 1: and porn consumption goes up. So people are using pornography
Speaker 1: and masturbation as a way to compensate for the couple
Speaker 1: not having as much sex as they would really like
Speaker 1: to have. That conversation oftentimes doesn't happen. I'm wondering too,
Speaker 1: because I'm you know again, I'm talking about a monogamous
Speaker 1: relationship that has been going on for a while. And
Speaker 1: I wonder too with women my age, like in perimenopause
Speaker 1: and menopause, their libido goes way down, so they're already
Speaker 1: feeling insufficient, and then I would imagine their husband or
Speaker 1: their spouses or their partners porn watching and masturbation goes up,
Speaker 1: and so you then have this inequality of kind of
Speaker 1: sexual activity that I would imagine causes a lot of problems.
Speaker 1: It certainly can, as again, especially when that resentment or
Speaker 1: conflict is there and people aren't talking about it. Now,
Speaker 1: I will say, we don't teach people how to talk
Speaker 1: about this stuff. I mean, we don't teach people even
Speaker 1: somebody you've been married to for fifteen or twenty years,
Speaker 1: we don't teach people to talk about masturbation. Now again
Speaker 1: when we refocus this on masturbation, and I think that's
Speaker 1: an important piece because back in twenty seventeen, a colleague
Speaker 1: of mine, Sam Perry, he's a sociologist in Oklahoma, he
Speaker 1: published data that showed at the time that pornography used
Speaker 1: predicted future divorce. Now, Sam went back and reanalyzed the
Speaker 1: data a little later when he heard from folks like me,
Speaker 1: and interestingly, he found that actually, when you separate out
Speaker 1: the variance related to masturbation, that pornography used actually was
Speaker 1: neutral to slightly positive for a relationship, but masturbation frequency
Speaker 1: predicted future relationship problems. Now, it's not that masturbation is
Speaker 1: bad for a marriage, but masturbation increases can reflect a
Speaker 1: desired discrepancy, can reflect sexual mismatch that isn't getting talked
Speaker 1: about in the relationship. That and it's a symptom of
Speaker 1: other issues. When I see couples in my office, and
Speaker 1: I see a lot of them that are struggling with pornography,
Speaker 1: it is always the canary in the coal mine. There
Speaker 1: are other issues and problems that don't relate to the pornography,
Speaker 1: but the pornography is a symptom of it. So, for instance,
Speaker 1: you know, one partner might have a sexual interest that
Speaker 1: the other partner doesn't share and actually shames the one
Speaker 1: partner for having an interest in, whether it's pornography or
Speaker 1: fetish behavior or BDSM or any other kind of behavior.
Speaker 1: So the partner goes to pornography to experience that kind
Speaker 1: of arousal and stimulation in a way they can't get
Speaker 1: with their partner because of the conflict and the undisclosed
Speaker 1: or unresolved kind of mismatch. I mean, you've talked about
Speaker 1: symptoms of pornography and masturbation being abandonment and rejection. I mean,
Speaker 1: do you have to and if you did really go
Speaker 1: into deep therapy about the underlying issues, would that somehow
Speaker 1: change their pornography viewing if you really got to the
Speaker 1: root of it. I've seen that happen. Definitely. When we
Speaker 1: can get the couple to talk about the fears, the emotions,
Speaker 1: the thoughts that they are having about this issue, then
Speaker 1: we can start addressing those real issues. Unfortunately, pornography is
Speaker 1: a it's a sexy, shiny object that distracts us from
Speaker 1: dealing with those real underlying conflicts. And I think that's
Speaker 1: so important because you know, if the husband, and unfortunately
Speaker 1: this often is a male female kind of dynamic, if
Speaker 1: the husband doesn't really understand the degree to which his
Speaker 1: wife feels threatened by the women in porn, then he
Speaker 1: can't do the work to let her know how attractive
Speaker 1: he thinks she is, how attracted he is still to her,
Speaker 1: and that she is somebody he lust after still after
Speaker 1: fifteen years of marriage. So explain the sexual shiny object
Speaker 1: syndrome exactly. So whenever, whenever sex is present and porn
Speaker 1: is a big, sexy, shining object, we get distracted by
Speaker 1: that and we chase it like a rabbit down a
Speaker 1: hole and blame lots and lots of problems on that
Speaker 1: instead of addressing again all these underlying kind of problems. Now,
Speaker 1: both men and women use pornography viewing as a way
Speaker 1: to deal with negative emotions. Men in particular used pornography
Speaker 1: and masturbation of pornography as a way to kind of
Speaker 1: turn off anxiety because it is a very effective strategy
Speaker 1: for that. Well, how is it effective for anxiety? Evolutionarily?
Speaker 1: You know, we were built as a species that made
Speaker 1: it at any opportunity, and if we were nervous about
Speaker 1: that saber tooth tiger getting us, you would jerk off, Well,
Speaker 1: you wouldn't. You wouldn't jerk off, you wouldn't masturbate. And
Speaker 1: so sexual arousal turns off anxiety. It turned you know,
Speaker 1: changes some of the function in our brain um so
Speaker 1: that we are more focused on pleasure. Pleasure feels better.
Speaker 1: It puts away you know, our discussed our even our
Speaker 1: our tendency to feel discussed for something goes down when
Speaker 1: we're sexually aroused, and then unfortunately oftentimes it comes back
Speaker 1: after our orgasm, and then people start feeling discussed even
Speaker 1: at the thing, at what they were fantasizing about or watching.
Speaker 1: How does that differ for women? Women have more effective
Speaker 1: and varied coping strategies to deal with negative emotions. You know,
Speaker 1: women from from an early age or taught to express, acknowledge, identify,
Speaker 1: and cope with negative emotions. Guys a lot of times
Speaker 1: in my office, sitting on my couch, guys don't even
Speaker 1: have very good ability to name the negative emotions that
Speaker 1: they're feeling, so they oftentimes don't practice many skills to
Speaker 1: deal with negative emotions and because watching pornography is a
Speaker 1: great way to turn off the depression or the anxiety
Speaker 1: and not worry about those things. Right, then guys can
Speaker 1: oftentimes overuse it. Now, if if that is going on
Speaker 1: in a relationship and we don't deal with it, we
Speaker 1: don't we don't help the guy learn other coping strategies
Speaker 1: to deal with those negative emotions. Then oftentimes what happens
Speaker 1: is we are trying to take away some of they's
Speaker 1: only coping strategies for bad feelings, and that can actually
Speaker 1: backlash and increase, right, increase anxiety and depression because now
Speaker 1: he is feeling sad or depressed or worried and he
Speaker 1: can't go to those things to feel better. Again, if
Speaker 1: we don't deal with those underlying issues for the man
Speaker 1: and the couple and we just focus on the pornography,
Speaker 1: we're missing the point, right. Um, But it is possible
Speaker 1: for both partners to feel arousal at the same time
Speaker 1: with pornography. Yeah, oftentimes, Um, that is one of the
Speaker 1: that that that's one of the strategies when couples watch
Speaker 1: porn together. Now, I think and in my third book
Speaker 1: about Responsible porn Use for Men, which is a great
Speaker 1: title by the way, thank you, um ethical dicks for
Speaker 1: all those guys named Richard who liked to watch porn
Speaker 1: um and and even just the idea that there is
Speaker 1: a thing called ethical pornography is oftentimes a challenge for
Speaker 1: people because they think that all pornography is inherently exploitive
Speaker 1: and if we if we then start to that is
Speaker 1: one of the things that oftentimes women fear about pornography
Speaker 1: is that women are being exploited in it, that they
Speaker 1: can't watch it ethically or safely. And I like to say, hey,
Speaker 1: there's fair trade born out there, just like fair trade coffee,
Speaker 1: where you don't have to feel guilty. Yeah, I'm trying
Speaker 1: to be more open minded about it, particularly when it
Speaker 1: comes to couples and how it relates to a relationship.
Speaker 1: There's a lot more to come after the short break
Speaker 1: and we're back. I just want to want to ask
Speaker 1: you right here about the men of sex addiction, because
Speaker 1: you've got very specific views about it, and one has
Speaker 1: a tendency in much of what I've read, particularly women,
Speaker 1: that when men use a lot of pornography, they are
Speaker 1: labeled as sex addicts, and that's not always true true,
Speaker 1: And I'm on record for really challenging the whole concept
Speaker 1: of sex addiction again because it distracts us from dealing with,
Speaker 1: oftentimes the real issues. So the research actually today, over
Speaker 1: the past seven years or so, has found that there
Speaker 1: are roughly two things that predominantly predict whether a male
Speaker 1: is going to identify as a porn addict. One is
Speaker 1: whether he was raised religious or not. Two now is
Speaker 1: whether he is highly narcissistic. And the religious conflict is
Speaker 1: coming from the fact that these are men who believe
Speaker 1: that pornography and masturbation immoral, and then they engage in
Speaker 1: that behavior, and then they feel bad for engaging in
Speaker 1: the behavior. The problem is not the pornography. The problem
Speaker 1: is engaging in a behavior that you disagree with and
Speaker 1: not ever examining or addressing or dealing with that internal conflict.
Speaker 1: The narcissism is a new finding that is popping up
Speaker 1: in research just recently, and narcissists and narcissistic males oftentimes
Speaker 1: engage in more selfish, exploitive sexual behavior, and when they
Speaker 1: are having conflict about it, they're much less likely to
Speaker 1: take personal responsibility for it and instead blame somebody or
Speaker 1: something else like pornography, which is why you see so
Speaker 1: many celebrities in the past, that's right, who have been
Speaker 1: you know, incredibly unfaithful and a bit of a player
Speaker 1: or a dog, and all of a sudden they're like,
Speaker 1: I'm a sex addict, I'm going to rehab, I'll be
Speaker 1: back in three months and all is forgiven. And yeah,
Speaker 1: do they address it and rehab sex addiction summer camp. No,
Speaker 1: they don't address it there. Instead they do things like
Speaker 1: ride horses and you know, engage in really unsupported kind
Speaker 1: of therapy. It's really important to know that. You know,
Speaker 1: after forty years of the sex addiction model existing, there's
Speaker 1: no data showing that that treatment works. There's there's no
Speaker 1: evidence that sex addiction treatment is effective at addressing any
Speaker 1: of these problems. Instead, what does work for people that
Speaker 1: are struggling with pornography is cognitive behavioral therapy or what's
Speaker 1: called acceptance and commitment therapy. These are both strategies that
Speaker 1: don't try to stop the behavior, but instead try to
Speaker 1: address and explore the function and the meaning of the behavior.
Speaker 1: That again is I think the thing that gets lost
Speaker 1: when we overfocus on the sexual behavior. We stop recognizing
Speaker 1: that this is a behavior that's occurred in a person,
Speaker 1: and in a relationship, and in a personal history of
Speaker 1: sexual attitudes and morality, and to understand that sexual behavior,
Speaker 1: we have to understand all of those things. Is there
Speaker 1: a theme that you have seen a lot in your
Speaker 1: work when it comes to pornography and couples, They recurring theme.
Speaker 1: I should say largely what you really described early on
Speaker 1: is that the wife oftentimes has concerns about what the
Speaker 1: pornography use means, and the couple isn't talking about it
Speaker 1: oftentimes because the husband is ashamed. Now, I do see
Speaker 1: men who don't want to pressure their wife for sex.
Speaker 1: They know that she's not feeling particularly into it, and
Speaker 1: they're going to feel guilty if they keep hounding her
Speaker 1: to have sex, So they masturbate to porn as an experience,
Speaker 1: as a release, so that they don't have to feel
Speaker 1: like they're pressure on her. So it's interesting that there's empathy.
Speaker 1: They're motivating these behaviors for the husbands, so they feel
Speaker 1: worse about sort of asking their wife for sex more
Speaker 1: than feeling bad about watching pornography. Oftentimes, Yeah, because because
Speaker 1: they know the wife feels pressured and they don't want
Speaker 1: to be that guy. Yeah, that can't feel good. Sexually
Speaker 1: either when you know your partner's not into it. Yeah. Yeah. Now.
Speaker 1: The one of the other things that we are seeing
Speaker 1: in recent research and clinically is that men who experience
Speaker 1: any form of sexual dysfunction, whether it's premature ejaculation, delayed ejaculation,
Speaker 1: or a rectile dysfunction, are fifty percent more likely to
Speaker 1: experience symptoms of that dysfunction when they are attempting to
Speaker 1: have partnered sex and not during masturbation. So the wife
Speaker 1: can get upset and say, well, you don't have problems
Speaker 1: with your sexual function when you're masturbating watching porn, but
Speaker 1: when you try and have sex with me, these problems
Speaker 1: are coming up and you can't get hard. Is there
Speaker 1: something wrong with me? Or did porn do this? But
Speaker 1: the problem is the sexual dysfunction, And again the problem
Speaker 1: oftentimes is anxiety. It is much easier to relax, watch
Speaker 1: pornography and masturbate. You don't have to buy the internet dinner,
Speaker 1: you don't have to try and find its clitterus, you
Speaker 1: don't have to worry about giving the Internet an orgasm.
Speaker 1: But when we're with a partner, you know, we do
Speaker 1: have to be mindful, We do have to be thoughtful
Speaker 1: and pay attention to our partner's needs. And for men
Speaker 1: that are dealing with sexual dysfunction and have anxiety, that
Speaker 1: is a recipe for struggle. So one of the things
Speaker 1: that I do with those kinds of couples is, hey,
Speaker 1: let's look at the differences between watching pornography and masturbating
Speaker 1: versus partnered sex. Now, what are some things that we
Speaker 1: can try and learn from it? Can or can we
Speaker 1: try and take pressure off? Can we increase repertoire for
Speaker 1: behaviors that are not penis focused? Can we expand the
Speaker 1: definition of sex? I encourage a lot of these couples
Speaker 1: to engage in mutual masturbation, to start learning about how
Speaker 1: each other self pleasures, so that now we can take
Speaker 1: that knowledge back into partnered sex. Yes, because I've heard
Speaker 1: a lot of women talk about how they can't have
Speaker 1: orgasms with their husband, but they can alone with a
Speaker 1: vibrator or and so's it seems to me the problems
Speaker 1: occur when everybody's basically getting themselves off, but they're not
Speaker 1: doing it together. And particularly as we age, you know,
Speaker 1: the sexual function you know, gets challenged by our aging bodies.
Speaker 1: And so again, can we now start to look at
Speaker 1: what do we get out of sex that maybe we
Speaker 1: don't have to have an orgasm together, but we get
Speaker 1: the cuddling, we get the connection, we get the physical touch,
Speaker 1: we get the acceptance and the affirmation, and we start
Speaker 1: valuing all of those things and we become less goal focused,
Speaker 1: right for the sex. That's an important thing. Now. One
Speaker 1: thing that came to mind just now as you talked
Speaker 1: about the women with their vibrators. This one husband read
Speaker 1: my book Ethical Porn for Dicks, and he came to
Speaker 1: me and he said, I get it now. He said,
Speaker 1: porn is a tool for increasing arousal, just like my
Speaker 1: wife's vibrator is a tool for increasing her arousal. And
Speaker 1: research actually supports that is that when people, particularly men,
Speaker 1: watch pornography, they're much more likely to have a more
Speaker 1: powerful orgasm to get aroused again and have a stronger
Speaker 1: erection than when they are fantasizing without pornography. So now,
Speaker 1: nobody's ever really done a comparison between mean people masturbating
Speaker 1: watching pornography versus sex, although there is interesting research that
Speaker 1: shows that men who watch pornography more actually get more
Speaker 1: aroused with their partner and watching pornography and masturbation frequency,
Speaker 1: it's not like it takes something away from libido or sexuality,
Speaker 1: but instead it oftentimes is an indicator of a higher
Speaker 1: level of sexual interest in libido. So, you know, there's
Speaker 1: this idea that if you masturbate, then you're taking something
Speaker 1: away from the sexual connection of the relationship outside the
Speaker 1: refractory period of maybe an hour or thirty minutes, that
Speaker 1: doesn't appear to be true. So when there is dysfunction
Speaker 1: which is based in an emotional or deeply psychological way,
Speaker 1: is the only way out to have therapy and to
Speaker 1: dig into that stuff, not necessarily. And so you know,
Speaker 1: there's research in Canada where they looked at people longitudinally
Speaker 1: over about a four or five year period of time
Speaker 1: and found that people who identified as sex addicts or
Speaker 1: porn addicts were generally ninety percent likely to not identify
Speaker 1: that way within a year's time without having gotten treatment
Speaker 1: or therapy. What that message is to me is that
Speaker 1: oftentimes sex related problems are kind of like an adjustment disorder.
Speaker 1: That people are struggling with something in their life, maybe divorce,
Speaker 1: maybe relationship problems, maybe stress at work, and they are
Speaker 1: trying desperately to feel better and they're using sex to
Speaker 1: try to feel better. As their life changes in some
Speaker 1: of those life problems get better. Oftentimes some of those
Speaker 1: problems will go away and the sex stops being a problem.
Speaker 1: There are some issues though, erectile dysfunction, delayed ejaculation, an orgasmia,
Speaker 1: that those are anatomical or physical. These well, we really
Speaker 1: struggle at this point to know how much of those
Speaker 1: issues are physical versus psychological. Typically it's a mix of both.
Speaker 1: You know, people men who struggle to restrain orgasm or
Speaker 1: to have orgasm when they want, you know, premature or
Speaker 1: delayed ejaculation. There is a very significant physical and genetic
Speaker 1: component to that. We can improve it to a degree
Speaker 1: with psychological treatment, but oftentimes we can't fix it entirely
Speaker 1: because of the physical components. Now there are some medications
Speaker 1: that we can also add in to help with those things.
Speaker 1: So we have to address these issues, all of them.
Speaker 1: We are embodied people, and sexuality is both body and mind,
Speaker 1: and we have to go at it in that way.
Speaker 1: And having a good sex therapist who doesn't engage in
Speaker 1: shame and who is educated about the wide diversity of
Speaker 1: normal can help us identify how our mind is contributing
Speaker 1: to these problems and maybe give us some strategies to
Speaker 1: explore to pull those problems away. And if you introduce
Speaker 1: pornography into your love making, isn't there a fear that
Speaker 1: you cannot then go back to having sex without the pornography.
Speaker 1: I mean, if it's so if it's so much better,
Speaker 1: how do you ever then kind of go back and say,
Speaker 1: oh shit, we're in this hotel and they don't have
Speaker 1: moren what are we going to do? You know, sexuality
Speaker 1: is really resilient, and I think that one of the
Speaker 1: things I worry about and a lot of the social
Speaker 1: dialogue about sexuality is that we act as though it
Speaker 1: can get broken really easily. And generally sex is responsive
Speaker 1: and able to absorb these kinds of different things. The
Speaker 1: pornography just like a sex toy, just like a vibrator,
Speaker 1: just like lingerie, just like you know, chocolate and strawberries
Speaker 1: can be something that couples can enjoy as a part
Speaker 1: of their sexuality. And typically I don't see couples where
Speaker 1: it takes over. Now, I do see couples where one
Speaker 1: partner becomes demanding, becomes kind of bossy and resentful if
Speaker 1: they can't have you know, pornography present. That's not a
Speaker 1: problem of the pornography. That's a problem of this person
Speaker 1: and their relationship style. And rather than talking about the pornography,
Speaker 1: I want to talk about why are they struggling to
Speaker 1: be empathic for their partners' needs and how can we
Speaker 1: increase compassion, empathy and communication about needs. I'm curious about
Speaker 1: something you just said because I've never quite understood the
Speaker 1: chocolate strawberry food addition to sex, because I've never tried it.
Speaker 1: But I don't. I don't like to mix. You don't
Speaker 1: like it secks, Yeah, I just never I never quite
Speaker 1: got it. I understand the feathers and the lingerie, it's
Speaker 1: the food. I'm not excited about it. It is a
Speaker 1: sensuous pleasure. It is again one of the aspects of
Speaker 1: our physical life where we can feel pleasure. You know,
Speaker 1: there's a reason why Kellogg's corn flakes was invented. It
Speaker 1: was invented as a bland food that wouldn't trigger people
Speaker 1: to be overly focused on physical pleasure that would lead
Speaker 1: them to masturbate or want to have sex. Kellogg was
Speaker 1: against masturbation and believed that if people enjoyed physical pleasures
Speaker 1: too much that it would take them over. This is true,
Speaker 1: This is it. Yeah, totally true. This is yeah. Kellex
Speaker 1: cornflakes and Graham crackers now and Graham who invented Graham crackers,
Speaker 1: believe the same thing. But um didn't anticipate s'mores because
Speaker 1: if you you know, if you bring chocolate and chocolate
Speaker 1: again and marshmallows, you know, Graham crackers are pretty sell.
Speaker 1: By the way, I will take us some more over
Speaker 1: sex any day of the week. So that they failed
Speaker 1: that way, So yes, so people can by bringing those
Speaker 1: sensual pleasures into sex. It gets to what I was
Speaker 1: talking about a moment ago, trying to expand our definition
Speaker 1: of sex. And though as we age, can we pull
Speaker 1: away from sex has to be penis and vagina penetration
Speaker 1: to you know, tell orgasm, and can we start expanding
Speaker 1: it to include other aspects of connected pleasure And for
Speaker 1: some people bringing food in now, some people are really
Speaker 1: into it, and they engage in what they call splashing,
Speaker 1: which is like throwing food at each other or having
Speaker 1: having sex or sex play like in a baby pool
Speaker 1: filled with food, but you use the baby pool so
Speaker 1: you don't make a mess, and then you go get
Speaker 1: in the shower. I got a lot to talk to
Speaker 1: my husband about. Okay, that's so, that's a thing. It's
Speaker 1: a thing, and it's not a thing for everybody, but
Speaker 1: it's a thing for some people. And if they do
Speaker 1: it in a healthy way, if they do it with
Speaker 1: consent and honesty and shared values and without exploitation or
Speaker 1: negative pressure, it's healthy. And I think that's one of
Speaker 1: the things that sex therapists have really progressed on in
Speaker 1: the past decade or two is recognizing that just because
Speaker 1: I wouldn't do something doesn't mean it's unhealthy. I mean
Speaker 1: that was the That was Kinsey's definition of an infamaniac
Speaker 1: an anybody who has more sex than the therapist. Now
Speaker 1: we recognize that about fifty percent of people have sexual
Speaker 1: fantasies or interests that we used to think were unhealthy
Speaker 1: or abnormal or aberrantn't We didn't know it was that
Speaker 1: many because they knew we thought there was something wrong
Speaker 1: with them, so they kept their mouth shut. Right now
Speaker 1: we're finding out through the Internet and through pronography, we're
Speaker 1: actually learning a lot of things about people's secret sexuality
Speaker 1: through chronography use that we never knew before, and is
Speaker 1: because we're taking away some of that secret chain. It's
Speaker 1: interesting to look at our country historically. And I was
Speaker 1: thinking earlier when we were talking about you know, people
Speaker 1: have fetishes, people introduced things into their relationships that work
Speaker 1: for them. In the seventies, you know, key parties were
Speaker 1: such a big part of a portion of our culture.
Speaker 1: And I'm just curious with your research. It doesn't really
Speaker 1: work to add a third person in, does it. You know,
Speaker 1: I know many non monogamous, very healthy, long lived couples
Speaker 1: that explore sexuality with other people, whether together or apart,
Speaker 1: and are able to make that work. Now, it's again,
Speaker 1: not all couples are the same. It works for some people,
Speaker 1: that doesn't work for others. People that you know, are
Speaker 1: more neurotic, people that have greater levels of insecurity or
Speaker 1: jealousy are less likely to be able to make that work.
Speaker 1: People with greater openness to experience, people with greater emotional
Speaker 1: stability and better communication skills are able to make that work.
Speaker 1: My first book actually is about couples that brought other
Speaker 1: men into the relationship to have sex with the wife.
Speaker 1: And I got to tell you, my first reaction when
Speaker 1: I met those couples was kind of like yours. Oh,
Speaker 1: this can't work. And then I sat down and I
Speaker 1: talked to these couples, and I found out that many
Speaker 1: of them had been making it work for twenty or
Speaker 1: thirty years, and it brought excitement and energy to the marriage.
Speaker 1: For some of the men, it took some pressure off
Speaker 1: for them to satisfy their wife. For some of the women,
Speaker 1: it became a really interesting kind of place of empowerment
Speaker 1: where the women were able to now express and embrace
Speaker 1: their sexuality in a new and kind of novel way
Speaker 1: that they'd never been allowed to before. Wow. I mean,
Speaker 1: because you never hear, or you rarely hear about, you know,
Speaker 1: a woman and her being allowed to have multiple partners.
Speaker 1: You know, usually it's the other way around, and it's
Speaker 1: some weird cult and you know they're all brainwashed women
Speaker 1: that you know, well, we saw it with Jerry Foldball Junior, yes, recently. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And you know, and that actually gets to the point
Speaker 1: I was making. I Mean, one of the things that
Speaker 1: I found super interesting as I watched that documentary was that,
Speaker 1: you know, Becky had Jerry was basically her only relationship
Speaker 1: she started dating in when she was a teenager, and
Speaker 1: you know, it is at least a hypothesis that we
Speaker 1: can explore is that exploring sex with other men, including
Speaker 1: the poolboy, was a way for her to explore something
Speaker 1: that she missed by getting into a monogamous relationship so early.
Speaker 1: Would you say it kept the relationship together, That maybe
Speaker 1: if she wasn't able to explore that, she would go
Speaker 1: off and be unfaithful unbeknownst to her husband. Possibly that
Speaker 1: is one of the things that you know, And I
Speaker 1: differ somewhat from some sex therapist who say, you know,
Speaker 1: opening a relationship in response to infidelity or to save
Speaker 1: a relationship never works. But I've seen I've seen couples
Speaker 1: where it did work. I've seen couples where infidelity got
Speaker 1: exposed and now it led them to talk about some
Speaker 1: of the things that had been missing in the relationship
Speaker 1: and in themselves, and for some of them, exploring non
Speaker 1: monogamy became a way to a strategy to fill some
Speaker 1: of those needs. And it's time for a short break.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to go. Ask Alli talk to me about
Speaker 1: orgasmic meditation, which I just like to say, yeah, oh yeah,
Speaker 1: don't be all I mean on Yeah. So, orgasmic meditation
Speaker 1: is an interesting kind of thing that popped up and
Speaker 1: it was kind of cult related a few years ago.
Speaker 1: And it's an interesting practice where a female lies prone
Speaker 1: and a partner wearing a glove and using lube, engages
Speaker 1: in kind of ritualized, very very stylized manual stimuli of
Speaker 1: the of the female's clarists for a period of time.
Speaker 1: And the point is not so much achieving orgasm, but
Speaker 1: orgasm is oftentimes a component of it. For many women
Speaker 1: that that practiced it, it became a way for them
Speaker 1: to connect with their sexual pleasure in a way that
Speaker 1: many of them had never had before. And you know,
Speaker 1: one of the one of the things I see that's
Speaker 1: just super sad is women coming into my office who
Speaker 1: you know, have just been taught to be ashamed of
Speaker 1: their sexuality, of their genitals, of their orgasm um, and
Speaker 1: they've never achieved sexual pleasure. It makes them feel so guilty,
Speaker 1: and so things practices like orgasmic me meditation are a
Speaker 1: way to for women to connect with that and to
Speaker 1: connect with their partner doing it. So there's been research
Speaker 1: looking at it and finding that it increases sexual pleasure,
Speaker 1: it increases orgasm connection or ability. The partner who is
Speaker 1: giving has to learn how to control themselves. Right, it's
Speaker 1: not about them. They have to restrain their desire to
Speaker 1: know jump in and make it about them and focus
Speaker 1: on their partner's pleasure. And that give and take and
Speaker 1: the focus on female pleasure I think is really remarkable. Now,
Speaker 1: there was some some unhealthy things about the group, some
Speaker 1: of the groups that were doing orgasmic meditation, and it
Speaker 1: turned into pressure and some exploitation, but there are definitely
Speaker 1: some valuable things that came out of that, right, And
Speaker 1: the other thing I'm really curious about is Hypersexual Behavioral Inventory.
Speaker 1: So the HBI, the hyper Sexual Behavior Inventory, was created
Speaker 1: by a colleague of mine, Rory Reid, as a PhD
Speaker 1: at UCLA, and it's nineteen items that assess a range
Speaker 1: of sexual behaviors, not just pornography viewing, and it helps
Speaker 1: to identify people who are having problems as a result
Speaker 1: of their behaviors. And that's an important thing to note
Speaker 1: because many there are many people out there who have
Speaker 1: lots of sex and have no problems at Gay men
Speaker 1: and swingers have more sex than sex addicts ever dreamed
Speaker 1: of having, but they don't have problems because they've integrated
Speaker 1: into their lives and it's part of it's part of
Speaker 1: their culture, so that it's not creating a conflict and
Speaker 1: there's not a lot of shame, probably right, exactly exactly,
Speaker 1: And a lot of this goes back to shame. A
Speaker 1: lot of the problems related to sexual behavior come out
Speaker 1: of shame and guilt and conflict between what we think
Speaker 1: we're supposed to be versus what our body and libido wants.
Speaker 1: The HBI is a good way of assessing the level
Speaker 1: of that. Now, there used to be these these tests,
Speaker 1: the Sex Addiction Screening Test and stuff like that. Basically,
Speaker 1: if you took the test and you've ever masturbated or
Speaker 1: had a sex fantasy that you felt a little bit
Speaker 1: of shame about, you came up as a sex addict
Speaker 1: on the HBI. It's actually normed on a general population,
Speaker 1: and so doctor Reid keeps adjusting the scoring because he's
Speaker 1: identified that there's a lot of people out there that
Speaker 1: engage in a lot of sex and that sometimes feeling
Speaker 1: guilty or having sex problems doesn't automatically make you unhealthy.
Speaker 1: And so that that's the most important thing I think
Speaker 1: in research around this is we have to recognize we
Speaker 1: are still learning what normal sex is because it's been
Speaker 1: so secret and so ashamed for so long. Oh well,
Speaker 1: I would say, on the other hand, too, addressing a
Speaker 1: lot of what we've talked about before, addressing sexual dysfunction,
Speaker 1: or even going so far as to you know, some
Speaker 1: of the criminal things about sexuality and predators, and you know,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of psychology to mind there, and we
Speaker 1: have a tendency just to say this is bad, put
Speaker 1: them away, or I'm bad. So I'm you know, I'm
Speaker 1: not going to allow my sexual being to be present
Speaker 1: in the world at all. Right, So what ways can
Speaker 1: can pornography be helpful in a relationship? Is it pure arousalum? No,
Speaker 1: I don't think so. Actually, for instance, people that watch
Speaker 1: pornography tend to become more egalitarian over time, tend to
Speaker 1: become less religious, and tend to be more aware of
Speaker 1: and supportive of female pleasure. So watching pornography can expose
Speaker 1: people to a wide diversity of sexual fantasies and behaviors,
Speaker 1: even things that don't turn you on. And that's one
Speaker 1: of the things that we see as people start to
Speaker 1: watch pornography is they become more accepting of behaviors that
Speaker 1: they themselves don't find arousing watching pornography together for a couple.
Speaker 1: One of the most positive things is that it injects
Speaker 1: novelty and sexual novelty into the relationship. Oh hey, let's
Speaker 1: try that thing that we just saw on the pornography
Speaker 1: because that looked kind of exciting and kind of interesting.
Speaker 1: Now we saw that with fifty Shades of Gray that
Speaker 1: you know. The enormous popularity of that book in that
Speaker 1: movie led to many many women going to their boyfriends
Speaker 1: or husbands and saying, hey, I kind of want to
Speaker 1: try this because I got really turned on reading this book.
Speaker 1: Pornography is the same thing. Erotica is really pornography for
Speaker 1: women and does kind of the same thing. Increases arousal
Speaker 1: and injects kind of novelty and new ideas just asking
Speaker 1: for a friend. I think a lot of women's aversion
Speaker 1: to pornography is that the things we talked about before,
Speaker 1: but also it's stuff being done to them. Is there
Speaker 1: a niche in the pornography world that is empowering pornography
Speaker 1: for women specifically, so it's not just a niche. I mean.
Speaker 1: One of the things that a lot of people don't
Speaker 1: actually understand is that the majority of pornography that's actually
Speaker 1: made in the United States now is made by independent
Speaker 1: female performers who are producing their own content. Pink and
Speaker 1: White Production and Afterglow are two that I've had communications
Speaker 1: with and seeing their material, and they've participated in trainings
Speaker 1: that I do that our female lad and producing content
Speaker 1: with an eye towards female sexual arousal. And this isn't
Speaker 1: kind of the nineteen seventies and eighties, you know, soft porn.
Speaker 1: It's still pretty hard porn. But a woman who's watching
Speaker 1: it can rest assured that everybody that's in it is
Speaker 1: consenting to be there, that they are not engaging in
Speaker 1: behaviors they don't want to engage in. And the material
Speaker 1: is produced in a way that focuses on a bit
Speaker 1: more realistic connection and arousal kind of practices. You know,
Speaker 1: it's not performative. And does it start with the men
Speaker 1: doing the dishes and the laundry because in a little
Speaker 1: made outfit, yeah, yeah, and then they're submissive. I mean
Speaker 1: that to me would probably make billions of dollars before
Speaker 1: we go as you know, I feel like I don't
Speaker 1: feel like it. I do. I ask a lot of
Speaker 1: questions on my podcast because it's like a masterclass for me.
Speaker 1: And it's always stuff that I'm just fascinated by and
Speaker 1: interested in. But I always allow my guests to ask
Speaker 1: me a question, ask me anything you want. So, you know,
Speaker 1: I did some googling alley and I saw that Yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, oh yeah you got you got a Google
Speaker 1: and I saw it. Back in nineteen when you actually
Speaker 1: talked about pornography and you said that you would watch
Speaker 1: pornography with your kids to help them talk with you
Speaker 1: about sex and what real sex is. Did that ever
Speaker 1: happen and what was that like? Ah? Yes, you know,
Speaker 1: I got a lot of backlash for that comment, and
Speaker 1: it was actually taken out of context. I was talking
Speaker 1: about educating our teens when it came to pornography, and
Speaker 1: I made a comment about I think about if I
Speaker 1: had a teenage boy, I might if you wanted to
Speaker 1: show me what he was watching, I would be able
Speaker 1: to talk about it. But to answer your question, no,
Speaker 1: I never watched pornography with my daughters. That's a shame.
Speaker 1: I you know, I thought it was such a healthy statement.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry you got backlash. There's a researcher, Emily Rothman
Speaker 1: in Boston who teaches porn literacy and actually has evidence
Speaker 1: based research supporting that by teaching young people about what
Speaker 1: porn is and isn't, we can take away many of
Speaker 1: the problems that porn might cause. So I thought you
Speaker 1: I thought your statement was brilliant, and I'm sad. I'm
Speaker 1: sad you got the hit. What I was saying was
Speaker 1: I think our teenagers, because pornography is so pervasive, need
Speaker 1: to be educated. I think with girls there's one kind
Speaker 1: of education, but I do think with boys it's it's
Speaker 1: at a much younger age. Because they're all watching porn.
Speaker 1: We have to really help them understand what true intimacy
Speaker 1: looks like, what kind of pornography, particularly the dark and
Speaker 1: very illegal stuff. Kids that are already precociously sexual, kids
Speaker 1: that are already interested in sad tend to be the
Speaker 1: ones who seek out pornography at earlier ages. Most of
Speaker 1: the problems of pornography on adolescents would be addressed and
Speaker 1: mitigated with effective sex education. But we get so focused
Speaker 1: talking about pornography and the negative messages that kids are
Speaker 1: learning from it that we kind of forget we need
Speaker 1: to put healthy messages out there. If we don't want
Speaker 1: the negative messages to stick Yeah, I completely agree. I
Speaker 1: mean you think about you know, and night. Again, if
Speaker 1: I were a teenage boy and sex ed was like
Speaker 1: the penis goes in the vagina, it throws up, and
Speaker 1: a baby's made, and then I discovered pornography. I mean,
Speaker 1: come on, there's no comparison. So I agree with you.
Speaker 1: I think the sex education or country could be amped
Speaker 1: up a lot more, just to show them what real
Speaker 1: women look like when they're naked and what real sexual,
Speaker 1: healthy relationships look like. So again that was sadly taken
Speaker 1: out of context, but what I was really saying was
Speaker 1: how important it is to educate our teens about pornography.
Speaker 1: But you still open the door. Yeah, and I do
Speaker 1: feel like I've educated them another way exactly. And kids
Speaker 1: that can talk with their parents about sexuality are much
Speaker 1: more likely to have healthy sexuality as adults. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: want to help people be healthy and have healthy sex.
Speaker 1: I love that. Well, that's your bumper sticker. Thank you,
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you, thank you. This was fascinating. So
Speaker 1: I thank you so much for talking to me about this,
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me, thank you, thank you for doing this.
Speaker 1: I mean, one of the things that I see is
Speaker 1: that these kinds of conversations help all of the listeners
Speaker 1: to address the issues of shame and sexuality stigma in
Speaker 1: their life. So you're changing the world by having these conversations. Wow,
Speaker 1: human sexuality will continue to boggle my mind. But so
Speaker 1: many great insights, so interesting to me because I have
Speaker 1: such rigid ideas about pornography and have been fascinated for
Speaker 1: a long time about how it is incorporated into a
Speaker 1: monogamous couple. So lots of eye opening for me. And
Speaker 1: also he's got an array of great books to read
Speaker 1: if you'd like to know more, and you can find
Speaker 1: him on Instagram at David lay PhD. And thank you
Speaker 1: all for listening to Go Ask Alli, and for more
Speaker 1: information on what you've heard in this episode, check out
Speaker 1: our show notes. Be sure to subscribe, rate and review.
Speaker 1: Go ask Alli and follow me on social media on
Speaker 1: Instagram at the Real Alli Wentworth. And Now, if you'd
Speaker 1: like to ask me a question or suggest a guest
Speaker 1: or a topic to dig into, I'd love to hear
Speaker 1: from you, and there's a bunch of ways you can
Speaker 1: do it. You can call or text me at three
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Speaker 1: you can email a voice memo right from your phone
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