1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told You From House top 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: works dot Com. Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:17,600 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline. And this week on the show, 4 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:21,640 Speaker 1: we're talking all about boots. Yeah, I get ready, but 5 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:25,160 Speaker 1: like politics of boobs, we're getting ready for this week 6 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: entail putting on a bra or taking off a prop Caroline, 7 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: I think it would not only entail not putting on 8 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:34,319 Speaker 1: a bra, but it would entail taking your shirt off 9 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:36,879 Speaker 1: and running through the streets. Who yeah, that's I mean, 10 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 1: well that's what I did earlier today. Like, did you 11 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:42,919 Speaker 1: notice when I stepped out? Yeah, I thought you were 12 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:44,839 Speaker 1: just going to the bathroom. No, No, I made a 13 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: real quick johnt around the building just to just really 14 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:51,480 Speaker 1: get my politics out there. Slash boobs. You just jogged 15 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 1: around the building topless. Yeah, yeah, you know. The construction 16 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 1: workers um had some things to say about it, but like, 17 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 1: I respect your bodily on top onto me. Yeah. It 18 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 1: was really incredible. It it really let me know that 19 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 1: the work of advocates for groups like Femine or Free 20 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,320 Speaker 1: the Nipple, it's really working. So listeners, we do highly 21 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 1: recommend that for this episode and in the next episode, 22 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:17,400 Speaker 1: go ahead, take your shirts off, put in your earbuds, 23 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 1: or put in your earbuds and take your shirt off, 24 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 1: although I think it would be easier to do it 25 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 1: in the reverse and step outside, let your let your 26 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 1: nips feel the cool or hot summer are That's right, Um, 27 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: perhaps we're not quite there yet socially politically, on a 28 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: society level, So listeners, take those earbuds uf, put that 29 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: shirt back on, get inside, lock the door, put your 30 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: earbuds back in. Yeah, and we do apologize for you know, 31 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 1: limiting you in your in your boob choices. But there's 32 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 1: a lot of history and like I said, politics that 33 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 1: go into why you maybe do or don't feel free 34 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 1: to take that shirt off and walk to work topless. Yeah. 35 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 1: And the thing that I really came away with in 36 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:12,919 Speaker 1: reading about toplessness and breasts, both male and female breasts, 37 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:15,959 Speaker 1: is that the more you read about it, the more 38 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 1: abstract and kind of ridiculous breasts become. It's like saying 39 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 1: the same word over and over again until it loses 40 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:24,960 Speaker 1: its meaning. I saw the exact same way. I mean, 41 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: we we read a bunch of pop culture stuff, activism stuff, 42 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:32,360 Speaker 1: the way that boobs showing them or or not showing 43 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 1: them relates or does not relate to feminism. But we 44 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:37,840 Speaker 1: also read a bunch of legal stuff looking at, you know, 45 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:42,519 Speaker 1: things relating to obscenity or indecency. And the deeper you 46 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:46,359 Speaker 1: read some of those legal cases and and the implications 47 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:50,919 Speaker 1: of them, the more it does just really seem silly. Yeah. 48 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 1: And honestly, throughout this research too, we were running across 49 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 1: lots of images of various breasts, and you know, when 50 00:02:57,720 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: you just start seeing lots and lots of boobs, they 51 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 1: really do become less sensational, which is part of as 52 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 1: we'll get into arguments for why it should possibly be 53 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 1: okay for women to take off their tops if they 54 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: want to. So I have to admit, though, Kristen, and 55 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: going into these topics, I was a little bit i 56 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 1: rolly or boob roly if you will, at the idea 57 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 1: of women running around the streets topless, saying that this 58 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 1: is a huge political issue, because I was just thinking, guys, 59 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 1: there is so much bigger things that stake, bigger political issues, 60 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 1: bigger social issues going on in our society right now, 61 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 1: like our boobs the thing we want to tackle. But again, 62 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 1: when I was reading all of that legal stuff, all 63 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 1: of these papers and studies on activists who have made 64 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: sort of toplessness their thing, it becomes very clear that 65 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: there are bigger issues at play, not just equality in 66 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 1: terms of men get to take off shirts, so women 67 00:03:57,280 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 1: should get to take them off too. There are bigger 68 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: issues about how we regulate women's bodies, and so I 69 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 1: think that does make this a really important issue. Yeah, 70 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: it's the whole. The personal is political, our boobs, ourselves 71 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 1: sort of thinking. And before we look at the legalities 72 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:19,159 Speaker 1: and perceptions of female toplessness more in the United States 73 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 1: or just in the West, more broadly, we wanted to 74 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 1: talk about cultures around the world because, as most of 75 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 1: us know, boobs mean different things in different places. And 76 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 1: we found a book called the Cultural Encyclopedia of the Breast, 77 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: Just One, Just One, Only One Breast, edited by Meryl D. Smith, 78 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 1: who highlights how in Africa, for instance, women's breasts and 79 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:52,160 Speaker 1: certain regions are viewed with pride and symbolized fertility and motherhood, 80 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 1: and exposed breasts are the norm among indigenous communities, including 81 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 1: the San, Himba and Nama of Namibia, and the same 82 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 1: thing goes in East Africa with groups like the Massi, 83 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 1: the Atroli, where pocot Borana and randal A, so there 84 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 1: are you know, there are places, as we've all seen 85 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:15,559 Speaker 1: in those National Geographic kinds of pictorials where yeah, women 86 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 1: walking around with their breasts exposed is just women walking around. Yeah. 87 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 1: And I don't want to like try to speak for 88 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:23,920 Speaker 1: a bunch of people, but I feel like for a 89 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 1: bunch of people in the US, seeing those pictorials in 90 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 1: National Geographic, it's sort of the first exposure that we 91 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 1: get to other people's breasts. I mean, because nobody's walking 92 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 1: around typically the streets or your house, even with their 93 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:42,280 Speaker 1: shirts off, and so seeing these women who are just 94 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 1: interacting with their families with no breast covering, it is 95 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 1: as like a little child in America like, oh wow, 96 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 1: that's like super different. Yeah, because there's no inherent sexualization 97 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 1: and there's also no shame too, well except for if 98 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 1: you look Cameroon and their practice of breast ironing, which 99 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 1: is just about as horrifying as it sounds. Uh. This 100 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:10,040 Speaker 1: is the practice of needing developing girls breaths with hot stones, 101 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:13,600 Speaker 1: and moms do it to basically the ingal being, to 102 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 1: protect their daughters from rape or from just attracting boys 103 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 1: in general, the feeling that like, once you are developing breasts, 104 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: that sends a signal that you are sexual or sexually available, 105 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 1: And so it's a horrible practice that stems from good 106 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:34,600 Speaker 1: intentions on a mom's part. Yeah, I mean, and I 107 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 1: don't have the statistics in front of me, but from 108 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 1: what I can recall, it's not widely practiced, but it 109 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:45,160 Speaker 1: is something a tradition that still exists in certain areas, 110 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 1: in certain groups in that country. And if we move 111 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 1: over to China before this is a very specific date. 112 00:06:55,960 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 1: Chinese women often bound their breasts because review ling one's breast, 113 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:05,840 Speaker 1: and I guess even any hint of cleavage was considered immoral. Um. 114 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 1: But there was also a lot of symbolism uh inferred 115 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 1: in the shape of one's breast. So conical breasts were 116 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 1: perceived as a sign of girls chastity because they implied 117 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 1: that they had never been used for breastfeeding. So yeah, 118 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: so they were like fresh fresh boobs, conical fresh boobs, 119 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 1: fresh boobs for sale for a dollar. Well. I also 120 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 1: thought it was interesting in reading about the breastbinding in 121 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 1: China that a lot of times it was considered as 122 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 1: a way to erase external sex differences and also any 123 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: potential sign external sign of desire. Well, in speaking of 124 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 1: more breast symbolism, in pre twentieth century India, in some places, 125 00:07:55,800 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 1: covering your breast also signified being an higher cast, so 126 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 1: women who were in lower casts would walk around with 127 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 1: their breasts uncovered often um, but wealthier women would not 128 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 1: reveal them. Interesting class division. Um. It's also interesting to 129 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 1: note that in pre Islamic Indonesia it was totally common 130 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 1: for women and girls to bear their breasts, and if 131 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 1: we moved to Australia, native women there in the Desert 132 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 1: region do paint their breasts and bodies to celebrate fertility, 133 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 1: both of their bodies and of the land. Although recently 134 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:34,959 Speaker 1: right they faced uh, some regulations from Australia who was like, 135 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:38,559 Speaker 1: all right, this is indecent and it's exposing families to 136 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 1: two boobs, which is terrifying. Keeping on the boob shame. 137 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:46,560 Speaker 1: I mean. If anything, the big takeaway from looking at 138 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:51,200 Speaker 1: these cross cultural symbols is that boobs are just kind 139 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 1: of complicated anywhere you go, Yeah, except perhaps in those 140 00:08:56,120 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 1: areas in East Africa where it's completely normalized and accepted 141 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 1: and de sexual lives in a way right, And and 142 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:08,959 Speaker 1: that's that's the big thing that that people activists, groups 143 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 1: like femine are trying to fight. Um, it's that idea 144 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:16,959 Speaker 1: that women's breaths are just purely sexual, that's it, and 145 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:20,679 Speaker 1: that they should always be covered. But when it comes 146 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 1: to Western culture and fashion, we've not always been as 147 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 1: scandalized as we are today by exposed cleavage and even 148 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:35,199 Speaker 1: some nips lips. Yeah, So anybody who you know has 149 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 1: looked at a painting in the last couple hundred years 150 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 1: knows that it was super common at points in the 151 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 1: seventeenth and eighteenth centuries to feature women, whether they were 152 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 1: royalty and super high class ladies at court, or whether 153 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 1: they were perhaps lower class women who were maybe actresses 154 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 1: or mistresses with their breaths exposed. And one of those 155 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:03,439 Speaker 1: actress a flash mistresses was Nell Gwyn who in the 156 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 1: late seventeenth century was the mistress of King Charles the Second, 157 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 1: who has been painted in various stages of nip slip. 158 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:16,320 Speaker 1: And then if we look at the early eighteenth century, 159 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 1: when deep cleavage was still in vogue, you have people 160 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 1: like Emily dou chateaua who was Voltaire's mistress and an 161 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:28,960 Speaker 1: Enlightenment scientist who side note, helped develop the concept of energy. 162 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:31,959 Speaker 1: Not too shabby. Um, and she was into fashion and 163 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 1: more super low cut gowns and possibly rouged her nipples. 164 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: Well you know, if if they're going to be out there, 165 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:44,320 Speaker 1: you might as well put makeup on. Yeah, that's why. 166 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:47,599 Speaker 1: That's what my mom always told me, Caroline. Well literally, no, no, 167 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 1: my mother did tell me that, But it was about 168 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 1: my face, not so much about my nipples as were covered. 169 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 1: But if if nipple paint were a thing, I would 170 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 1: just make a whole face on it. You know. Wait 171 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 1: with like different colors are still with like pinks and reds, Yeah, 172 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:05,319 Speaker 1: different colors, go for it. Share clown paint, yeah. Um, 173 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:08,319 Speaker 1: and we should we should specify that we're not just 174 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 1: talking about you know, we did an episode on the nude, 175 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 1: the female nude in art, and that's not exactly what 176 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 1: we're talking about. We're not talking about a female mythological 177 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:26,079 Speaker 1: figure who symbolizes you know, absolute chastity necessarily or you know, vulnerability, 178 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 1: or maybe she's a goddess. No, we're talking about real women, 179 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:33,080 Speaker 1: real live women who were being depicted in art wearing 180 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:36,959 Speaker 1: the fashion of the day, which was, oh, here's my 181 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 1: my dress and my lace and all of that good stuff. 182 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:43,319 Speaker 1: But it's just super low cut and my rouged nipples 183 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 1: are peeking out over the top. Well, it's fascinating to 184 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 1: see how in the eighteenth century exposed breasts like that. 185 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 1: I mean, they're not going around full topless like you said, 186 00:11:53,800 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 1: um but almost uh. Fully exposed breast didn't suggest sex. Rather, 187 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 1: you said chastity just a second ago. It rather suggested 188 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:09,840 Speaker 1: chastity because like the conical shaped breast preferred by those 189 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:15,319 Speaker 1: early Chinese, um, high pert boobs meant that you hadn't 190 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 1: had kids yet, and it also signaled high status. Interesting, 191 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:25,079 Speaker 1: which seems like the exact opposite of how we perceive full, 192 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 1: mostly exposed breasts today. Yeah, in terms of like the 193 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 1: portified breast, Yeah, yeah, that it's low class to do that. Well, 194 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 1: but when you move on from the relatively nipple friendly 195 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:44,719 Speaker 1: regency arrow, uh, you get the Victorian era, which, as 196 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:47,559 Speaker 1: we know, was not quite as open to things like 197 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 1: boobs or women showing anybody part at all. Ever. Yeah, 198 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:56,719 Speaker 1: I don't think Queen Victoria would have been into nipple rouge. No, 199 00:12:57,160 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 1: she would have been horrified, and that really seems like 200 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:05,079 Speaker 1: the big turning point fashion wise and also uh, cultural 201 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 1: morality wise in terms of accepting women's breasts more on display. 202 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 1: But it wasn't just the female breast that was considered 203 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:17,559 Speaker 1: a scandalous thing or an inappropriate thing to show off 204 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 1: in public. Men were also not allowed to free their 205 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 1: nipples for a while too, until the twentieth century. Yeah, 206 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:27,679 Speaker 1: men had to kind of put up a fight to 207 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:31,200 Speaker 1: have their nipples on display, and they were successful after 208 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 1: really not doing all that much. Yeah, I mean, and 209 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 1: I love this chapter in fashion history and cultural history 210 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:43,319 Speaker 1: because it's like, the oh, men have nipples too. It 211 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 1: hasn't always been this way, But I hadn't thought about 212 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 1: that before, of how bare chestedness and public shirtlessness was 213 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 1: actually a development. It wasn't just always a thing that 214 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 1: guys could take for granted as being acceptable. And pretty 215 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 1: much any internet history or timeline of toplessness that you 216 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 1: will run across on the Internet or elsewhere will say, 217 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 1: did you know that it used to be illegal for 218 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 1: men to go shirtless in the United States, Which was 219 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 1: kind of sort of true to a point. There were 220 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:17,559 Speaker 1: definitely regulations at beaches and at public pools when that 221 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 1: started to become more of a thing in the early 222 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 1: twentieth century. Um because people didn't want men wearing super 223 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 1: tight swimsuits that conformed to their bodies. It was requested 224 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: that guys definitely cover up their nipples, and sometimes too 225 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 1: were a little skirt over because you don't want to 226 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: see the outline of the penis. Oh my god, men's 227 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 1: own dirty pillows. And it was pretty much until the 228 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 1: late nineteen thirties that it was risky for men to 229 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 1: go swimming, especially at bigger beaches or pools, without their 230 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 1: shirts on. So that's why old timey men swimsuits are 231 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 1: those tank tops that they're kind of like the racer 232 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 1: backs because they tend to cut in, you know, showing 233 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 1: as much of the chest as they could without revealing 234 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 1: the nipple. Yeah, and so I guess they just got 235 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 1: tired of wearing those glorified suspenders as swimming as swimming 236 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 1: suits over there over their man nips. And so in 237 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty five you have a bunch of male topless 238 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 1: sun bathers and swimmers who got themselves arrested on purpose 239 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 1: of course, in Atlantic City, to protest having to cover 240 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 1: their nipples up. Yeah. So in nineteen thirty six, the 241 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 1: New York state law finally allows men to be bare 242 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 1: chested in public. And it's really interesting too, on a 243 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 1: side note, to see the gendering of how we talk 244 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 1: about not wearing a shirt, because when I hear topless, 245 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 1: I think women, but they're chested? Is men? Isn't that strange? 246 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 1: Shall we have two different words for basically the same thing. Um? 247 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: But when I went back to Caroline and was looking 248 00:15:56,120 --> 00:16:00,080 Speaker 1: at the evolution of men going shirtless and public, like 249 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 1: in the nineteen thirties, like by the time those guys were, 250 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 1: you know, getting arrested on purpose so that they could 251 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 1: sunbathe or swim without their little man tanks on, there 252 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: were plenty of guys who were already wearing briefs like 253 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 1: they're a Rudolph Valentino, for instance, who was an iconic 254 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 1: Hollywood start at the time, would walk around on the beach, 255 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 1: you know, in California with just um, just his very 256 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 1: tight briefs on. So it seems like in terms of 257 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 1: it being illegal for men to be shirtless is a 258 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 1: bit of an overstatement, and all it really took was 259 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 1: men just taking their shirts off. And then you have 260 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 1: male judges who can empathize and be like, oh, okay, well, 261 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 1: I guess this isn't such a big deal after all. 262 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 1: So then by the nineteen forties, nobody's wearing a tank top. 263 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 1: It's all shorts or tiny little briefs. Right. Um, well, yeah, 264 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 1: I like you said, I mean male judges sympathizing with uh, 265 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: male bathing suit wearers and being like, oh, yeah, your 266 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 1: chest isn't sexual, It's just a part of your body. Yeah. 267 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: And we mentioned male judges empathizing and sympathizing because that's 268 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 1: going to play a big role when we get into 269 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:26,159 Speaker 1: legalities around female toplessness, because, as we all know, this 270 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 1: has been a far more debated issue. Um now, women 271 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 1: showing their nipples doesn't really become much of a social 272 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:40,400 Speaker 1: conversation until the swing in sixties and wild seven news, 273 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:45,120 Speaker 1: when those kids are like, I don't need bras and tops. Yeah, hippies, 274 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:48,960 Speaker 1: flower crowns, all sorts of great things happening. And so 275 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:52,160 Speaker 1: that's when you get the first toplessness laws in New York, 276 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:58,360 Speaker 1: which are enacted to bar specifically sidewalk promotions of topless bars, 277 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:02,360 Speaker 1: topless waitresses, row other than just women walking around shirtless 278 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 1: on a hot day. So it's not so much like 279 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:06,200 Speaker 1: we've got to put a law in place to ban 280 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 1: topless sunbathing or you know, women taking their shirts off 281 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:12,959 Speaker 1: on their front stoop or whatever. It's like we've got 282 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: to protect society from topless waitresses. Yeah, because I doubt 283 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 1: there's ever been this. Well if there have been, we 284 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 1: would have read about this, because every article would mention this. 285 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:24,639 Speaker 1: But I don't think it's ever really been an issue 286 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:27,440 Speaker 1: of women in mass walking around without their shirts on 287 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 1: and needing to be told to cover up. Um. But 288 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 1: when you look at the legalities today, because I think 289 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:38,880 Speaker 1: a lot of people assume that top toplessness is illegal 290 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: for women in the United States, but the actual illegal 291 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:46,440 Speaker 1: framework is a bit more nuance, and we're going to 292 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:48,960 Speaker 1: talk about that when we come right back. I'm a 293 00:18:49,040 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: quick break. So before the Great Kristen mentioned out the 294 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:05,400 Speaker 1: laws regulating women's toplessness are very nuanced, and I would 295 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:08,200 Speaker 1: go so farst to say they're actually pretty muddy, because 296 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 1: while you have laws saying it's okay to be topless 297 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:16,359 Speaker 1: and it's okay to breastfeed, you've got plenty of municipal 298 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:21,360 Speaker 1: by laws that do sort of cloud those rules. Efforts 299 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 1: by municipalities to you know, quote unquote protect community standards. Yeah. Now, 300 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:31,879 Speaker 1: at a state level, only three states Indiana, Utah, and 301 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:38,960 Speaker 1: Tennessee explicitly ban bare female chests in public. But like 302 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 1: you said, you have these local laws and ordinances that 303 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 1: can still crack down on topless ladies who aren't topless 304 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 1: on the job i e. In strip clubs. Um and 305 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 1: fines are the usually the most common punishment, but imprisonment 306 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:58,239 Speaker 1: can also happen. And worst case scenario, if people who 307 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 1: witness toplessness in public complain and there are miners around 308 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 1: the yalities can possibly crank up to felony charges. I 309 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 1: mean talk about some loaded boobs, loaded boobs, um, yeah, 310 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:15,280 Speaker 1: I mean that that think of the children thing has 311 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:19,280 Speaker 1: been huge in terms of arresting and prosecuting women for 312 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:22,360 Speaker 1: taking their shirts off. How quickly that breast goes from 313 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:27,120 Speaker 1: being you know, life giving their baby to being life 314 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:29,720 Speaker 1: ending apparently the at the mere side of them when 315 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:34,160 Speaker 1: they're what four or five? Yeah, yeah, suddenly it becomes 316 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:37,920 Speaker 1: because I mean, let's be honest, like, because society has 317 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 1: made it the breast, I mean, such a sexualized object 318 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:45,400 Speaker 1: that is somehow apart from a woman's being and her 319 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:49,160 Speaker 1: physical self, then suddenly it does become unsafe for kids 320 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:51,399 Speaker 1: to look at it, even though they probably had their 321 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:53,359 Speaker 1: faces stuck up to it just a couple of years before. 322 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:57,199 Speaker 1: So in a piece we found over at Yahoo detailing 323 00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 1: the history of legalities around female toplessness in the United States, 324 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 1: the author noted how in Delaware, for instance, women can 325 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 1: get arrested if they are exposing their boobs quote, under 326 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:14,920 Speaker 1: circumstances that she knows her conduct will likely cause a 327 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 1: front or harm. So basically, if you're right it out 328 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:20,440 Speaker 1: and just flash in your boobs, just trying to cause 329 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 1: the ruggist you and you're in Delaware, you might get arrested. 330 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 1: Those are aggressive boobs, ma'am. If you have aggressive areola, 331 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:33,880 Speaker 1: you're going in oh again. New band name aggressive Areola. Yeah, 332 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 1: that's a good one, will make that happen. I also 333 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 1: thought it was funny that in Arizona, a woman can 334 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:41,879 Speaker 1: be arrested for a decent exposure if she exposes the arial, 335 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:44,879 Speaker 1: speaking of the arial, if she exposes it or the 336 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 1: nipple of her breast if someone else is present, so 337 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 1: god forbid, there is another human person near you if 338 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:56,560 Speaker 1: you decide to strip down, so you're in a field alone, 339 00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 1: having a picnic by yourself. You want to get like, like, 340 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:04,200 Speaker 1: do you want to get some sune? M hmm, no problem. 341 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 1: Totally legal until until the cool aid man must be in. 342 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:11,439 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, yeah, you're under arrest. Why does 343 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:15,119 Speaker 1: he ruin everythingthing? And it also gave me a chuckle. 344 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 1: How in Louisiana, legally speaking, female breast nipples that's a 345 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 1: quote as opposed to other nipples yes, yes, which are 346 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:29,880 Speaker 1: exposed publicly with the intent of arousing sexual desire can 347 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:34,359 Speaker 1: land you with three years of jail time for first 348 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:38,960 Speaker 1: time offense and fine. Louisiana, which is the home of 349 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 1: Marty Gras. Yeah, I don't understand how that works. I 350 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 1: don't understand how that works either. But also this is 351 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:47,639 Speaker 1: a good example of what we'll talk about in a 352 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:52,160 Speaker 1: second in terms of not taking the the quote unquote actors, 353 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 1: thoughts or opinions about her own breasts into account. Things 354 00:22:57,119 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 1: are only framed typically when you look at legal stuff, 355 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 1: they're only framed from the perspective of what a straight 356 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 1: man will think about a woman's boobs. So you're at 357 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 1: Mardi Gras, you flash your breast, you could say your 358 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 1: intent is to get them beads. But guy on the 359 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 1: street says, well, I liked what I saw, so your 360 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:22,200 Speaker 1: intent was to arouse me. Yeah, exactly, And welcome to 361 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 1: the law, ladies and gentlemen. Yeah, this is the law 362 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 1: by Christen Conger. And female toplessness in public is still 363 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:31,639 Speaker 1: so taboo that even in places where it is technically 364 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 1: legal for you to do that, you might still get 365 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:38,920 Speaker 1: fined or arrested anyway. So, for example, in two thousand five, 366 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 1: a woman named Phoenix Feely was wrongly arrested in New 367 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:46,440 Speaker 1: York for going topless despite of being legal, and she 368 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 1: was later awarded though twenty nine thousand dollars and damages, 369 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,119 Speaker 1: but not before she went on a hunger strike. Right, 370 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 1: she was released from prison on time served after you know, 371 00:23:57,640 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 1: she went to prison, well, I mean when she was 372 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 1: arrested did on the street, not like prison prison, but 373 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,960 Speaker 1: when she was locked up jail during her time there, 374 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 1: she went on a hunger strike for I think it 375 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 1: was like six days or something, which really just makes 376 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 1: me think, like God, there are people in the world 377 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 1: who have the strength of will to not eat for 378 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 1: that long. That's really impressive. But she ended up getting 379 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:21,560 Speaker 1: released on time served and then that eventually led to 380 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:24,680 Speaker 1: the legal stuff where she was awarded all those damages. 381 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,400 Speaker 1: Well in The New York Times reported a couple years ago, 382 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 1: I believe on how a memo was circulated among New 383 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 1: York City cops saying, hey, seriously, summertimes coming, please do 384 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,639 Speaker 1: not arrest women who are topless. There are some performance 385 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,359 Speaker 1: artists who just like, do this thing, but don't arrest 386 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,160 Speaker 1: them because we don't want to have to pay twenty 387 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 1: nine more thousand dollars in damages. Right, yeah, and there, 388 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 1: but there was still some confusion. The article quoted to 389 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 1: police officers having a conversation and one was like, yeah, 390 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 1: you know, we can't do this. We can't arrest them 391 00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,920 Speaker 1: if their shirts are off. And one other cop was like, well, 392 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 1: I thought they had to have body pain. The other 393 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 1: guy's like, nope, nope, just stop. Just don't arrest them. 394 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 1: Just just keep the handcuffs to yourself. But I mean, 395 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:11,639 Speaker 1: if there is confusion lingering, there is a great resource 396 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,959 Speaker 1: called go Topless. They're an organization that advocates for women's 397 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,160 Speaker 1: right to go topless on the basis of gender equality, 398 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:20,119 Speaker 1: and they have a very handy map in case for 399 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 1: a visual learner and need to look at a colored 400 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:25,920 Speaker 1: map of the United States, and I'm happy to see here, Carol, 401 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,920 Speaker 1: I'm looking at the SCO topless dot Org map that 402 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,680 Speaker 1: where we are in Georgia, that state is green, which 403 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,359 Speaker 1: means you and I can take our tops off right 404 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 1: now without risk of arrest. I am not even going 405 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:41,440 Speaker 1: to do that, although perhaps at risk of the awkward 406 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 1: silences once we do it. And a very nervous and 407 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:51,760 Speaker 1: uncomfortable producer, Well, um, if I can get cat called 408 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 1: outside of this building wearing a T shirt and jeans, 409 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,200 Speaker 1: I just don't even want to start to exercise my 410 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 1: right to go to popolis. And and that also has 411 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,879 Speaker 1: a lot to do with activists who are trying to 412 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:09,920 Speaker 1: draw attention to the legality of going topless, that a 413 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,680 Speaker 1: lot of women do feel endangered. They don't want to 414 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 1: be leered out or attacked. And then on the other 415 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 1: the flip side of that, a lot of laws are 416 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 1: justified because they're like, we've got to protect women. Yeah. 417 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:25,200 Speaker 1: I mean, it's really once you start digging into the 418 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:29,639 Speaker 1: laws and legislation around toplessness that it starts to make 419 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:34,639 Speaker 1: sense why these activists do care about this issue. Because 420 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,240 Speaker 1: I was the same way you were, Caroline, in terms 421 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 1: of wondering whether this really is something worth so much attention, 422 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 1: But it says so much about how our bodies are 423 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 1: gendered and politicized, because a lot of the laws, in 424 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 1: particularly their application and interpretation by judges, have been so 425 00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:02,480 Speaker 1: historically sexist for so many reasons. First of all, because 426 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:07,639 Speaker 1: men's chests and nipples are the default right, and so 427 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,640 Speaker 1: even even when people argue that we should be able 428 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 1: to go topless because we're basically the same. You have boobs, 429 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:16,359 Speaker 1: the man has boobs. Our boobs just look a little different. 430 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: Even not, it is still based on the theory that 431 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:23,399 Speaker 1: men's chests are the norm, and because women's chests are 432 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:25,920 Speaker 1: similar to men's, therefore we should have the right to 433 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:30,720 Speaker 1: go topless. So even some lines of advocacy are still 434 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:33,399 Speaker 1: based on that idea that the male body is the 435 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:34,959 Speaker 1: norm and it's what we should base all of our 436 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:41,159 Speaker 1: ideas on. And also, by extension, it's based on the 437 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:48,280 Speaker 1: idea that women's bodies, naked bodies are inherently sexual. Yeah, 438 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 1: we cannot be topless and expose our breasts without it 439 00:27:53,760 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 1: being assumed that we are somehow flaunting our bodies, fliring 440 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:06,440 Speaker 1: with other people, or inviting sexual comments or activity. Those 441 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 1: aggressive breaths again, because aggressive areal is always screaming at people. 442 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:18,680 Speaker 1: That's why we wear bras like the muzzles, mules, I 443 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:21,399 Speaker 1: grabbed my boob, like I'm comforting it, stop ueling. But 444 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:24,119 Speaker 1: sometimes if it's really quiet, even if you're wearing a 445 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:30,879 Speaker 1: braw you can still hear them. Inequality. Um. And then 446 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 1: along the lines of this whole idea of like sexualizing 447 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,919 Speaker 1: the female body using the male body as the norm, 448 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 1: we already mentioned the idea that people aren't taking it legally. 449 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 1: People don't tend to take into account the woman's intention 450 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 1: behind being without a shirt or a bra. It's always, 451 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:55,240 Speaker 1: like you said, considered flaunting. And so we're always thinking 452 00:28:55,320 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 1: about what the impact on a heterosexual man is. And 453 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 1: because heterosexual dudes love boobs, that means that boobs are 454 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 1: always sexual, and so that a woman is always going 455 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 1: against community sensibilities if she takes her shirt off. Think 456 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 1: of the children. Yeah, And so it's this environment of 457 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 1: women being held legally responsible for other people's thoughts and actions, 458 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 1: which is something that comes up a lot of time 459 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 1: too in victim blaming culture of you know, if sexual 460 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,880 Speaker 1: assault happens, the question isn't while what was going on 461 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 1: with this perpetrator, It was, well, what was the victim wearing? 462 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:37,320 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, if she were topless, then there would 463 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 1: be no sympathy in a way, right now, I was. 464 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 1: I was pretty astounded at at drawing those connections in 465 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 1: the papers we read talking about the legal issues behind 466 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,160 Speaker 1: this type of activism or even this type of just hey, 467 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 1: women getting arrested for being without a shirt on their 468 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 1: own front porch. Just astounded at the idea of well, know, 469 00:29:56,120 --> 00:30:02,160 Speaker 1: you are legally responsible for how a man reacts to you. Well, 470 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 1: and if you start reading to the judge's commentaries and 471 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 1: a lot of these cases, especially older cases, I think 472 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,640 Speaker 1: that things have probably gotten a little bit more progressive. 473 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 1: But for instance, um, a Canadian judge in one upheld 474 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 1: an indecency conviction and fine of a woman sitting topless 475 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:30,000 Speaker 1: on her friend's front porch, and in explaining his decision, 476 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,000 Speaker 1: he said, quote, it's clear to me that the female 477 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,800 Speaker 1: breast constitutes a very personal and responsive part of the 478 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 1: female anatomy, and it's part of the female body that 479 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 1: is sexually stimulating to me both by sight and touch, 480 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 1: and is not therefore a part of the body that 481 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 1: ought to be flagrantly exposed to public view. And that 482 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 1: statement right there really sums up all of the reasons 483 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 1: why a lot of these laws are sexist. Yeah again, 484 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 1: you thing that we're an astounding that because he literally says, 485 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 1: because it's sexually stimulating to me. He went as far 486 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 1: as to say to me, not just like, oh, it's 487 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 1: potentially sexually stimulating to a swath of people in the country. Now, 488 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 1: he specifically said that it was sexually stimulating to him, 489 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 1: and whatever her intentions were, just screw it. Who cares. 490 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 1: And I'm sure there are lots of guys with nipples 491 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 1: out there who would also attest to them being very 492 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:34,600 Speaker 1: personal and responsive parts of their anatomy. Guys with nipples, yes, yeah, exactly. 493 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 1: But we're only kind of I mean, we're only willing 494 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:42,000 Speaker 1: to think of women's breasts as being the sexual chest. 495 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 1: Men's chests are just neutral. Yeah. And this was something 496 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 1: that Rena and Glazer analyzed in her legal paper Women's Body, 497 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:54,240 Speaker 1: Image and the Law, and one thing that she highlights 498 00:31:54,440 --> 00:32:00,480 Speaker 1: is how female toplessness in private settings, private commercial settings 499 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:05,280 Speaker 1: such as strip clubs are totally fine. If we're paying 500 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 1: to see them, then that's okay. Um. And in talking 501 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:16,960 Speaker 1: about that, um, she says this maintains an inequality, reinforcing 502 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 1: a dual image of women, the good girls versus the 503 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 1: bad girls, the madonna's versus the whores. And she also 504 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:26,480 Speaker 1: went on to talk about how, like, are we so 505 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 1: uncomfortable with just merely the idea of a de sexualized 506 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 1: breast too? Is that what we can't wrap our head around? Like, 507 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 1: are we more comfortable with naked female breasts in the 508 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 1: context of a strip club more so than seeing them 509 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 1: on a sidewalk? And what does that say about it? Yeah, 510 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:50,680 Speaker 1: we're okay with a boob on stage, we can throw 511 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:53,680 Speaker 1: dollar bills at them. Yeah, But the minute that that 512 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 1: woman steps outside in the same topless state, then she's 513 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:01,560 Speaker 1: breaking the law or or not breaking the law, but 514 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,800 Speaker 1: that she's a front and affront to people's sensibilities. Yeah, 515 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 1: she's endangering the community. Yeah, Which doesn't say very much 516 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 1: about anyone. I mean, it doesn't say very much about 517 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 1: what we think about men and their instincts or women 518 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,880 Speaker 1: in their ability to govern their own bodies. Well. And 519 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:22,800 Speaker 1: and it's not just men either, I mean there are 520 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:24,960 Speaker 1: women we talked about this all the time. Women police 521 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,360 Speaker 1: each other's bodies all the time as well, So this 522 00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:34,120 Speaker 1: cuts across society and culture, and aside from confronting these 523 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 1: sexist legal systems, Glazer also talks about how one upside 524 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 1: of desexualizing or just normalizing the female breast is that 525 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 1: it might make us feel a little better about our bodies. Yeah, 526 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 1: this is absolutely like you and I talk about normalizing 527 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:55,200 Speaker 1: things all the time on the podcast, about representation of 528 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:57,360 Speaker 1: whatever it is that we're talking about, because the more 529 00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 1: you see something, the more normal it is and works 530 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 1: sceptible it is to you. And I think this is 531 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:06,600 Speaker 1: definitely true with women seeing other women's bodies. You know, 532 00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 1: we talk about body images. It relates to women in magazines, 533 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,279 Speaker 1: women in movies, women online that you see and you're 534 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 1: we're constantly confronted with these quote unquote perfect bodies. We 535 00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 1: never get to see people who look like us. We 536 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:24,239 Speaker 1: never get to see, you know, a saggy breast or 537 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:28,040 Speaker 1: or a small one, or some a breast that's large naturally, 538 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:31,520 Speaker 1: and and how that looks and how that feels. And 539 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 1: so I know that Rena Glazer pointed out how sort 540 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:39,160 Speaker 1: of amazing it might be if women were allowed to 541 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:44,359 Speaker 1: exist in a way that their breasts weren't constantly sexualized, 542 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 1: and that you could interact with each other and see 543 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:48,680 Speaker 1: each other's bodies and know that, hey, it's okay to 544 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:52,960 Speaker 1: look different. Everybody does look different. So instead of like 545 00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:55,800 Speaker 1: women having like stitching bitches where they hang out and 546 00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 1: make things in drink wine, do we need to have 547 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:01,600 Speaker 1: a nip and notche where we you know, look at 548 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:05,240 Speaker 1: each other's boobs and eat snacks. Well didn't she didn't. 549 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:09,839 Speaker 1: Glazer talk about or quoted some women who one day 550 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:13,920 Speaker 1: just all jumped in the lake topless. It was hot outside. 551 00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:15,800 Speaker 1: They all jumped in the water and they were like, 552 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:18,719 Speaker 1: oh my god, you look that way, you look that way, 553 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:21,640 Speaker 1: I look this way. We're all normal. Well, speaking of 554 00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:25,440 Speaker 1: that thought, Caroline, I've been to saunas with girlfriends, and 555 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:32,040 Speaker 1: the thing is, though I confront my own prudery whenever 556 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:35,680 Speaker 1: it happens, because we'll take off our our clothes obviously, 557 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,120 Speaker 1: but I do the really intense eye contact, you know, 558 00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:42,080 Speaker 1: like I I'm only looking at only looking at your face. 559 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:45,320 Speaker 1: I'm not going to look directly at your breast. And 560 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 1: I feel half of it is just I think me 561 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,200 Speaker 1: being a little up tight etiquette wise, of like, I 562 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:54,879 Speaker 1: don't want to make you uncomfortable, but at your boobs. Um, 563 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:57,160 Speaker 1: but it's it's a funny thing to do. It hasn't 564 00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:01,640 Speaker 1: necessarily I haven't done it enough that I feel necessarily comfortable. Um, 565 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:06,160 Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean I would definitely do the same thing, 566 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:10,680 Speaker 1: maintain super intense eye contact like hello, I'm definitely interacting 567 00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,640 Speaker 1: with your eyes and not anything else. But I mean 568 00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:17,360 Speaker 1: that I think does speak to our culture of boobs 569 00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:20,760 Speaker 1: not being normal. Boots are not normal. You're not supposed 570 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:22,879 Speaker 1: to look at them. You have them yourself, but don't 571 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:24,640 Speaker 1: look at those together. Well, I think it's it's a 572 00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:27,359 Speaker 1: culture culture where we're supposed to be embarrassed if our 573 00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:31,600 Speaker 1: boobs are exposed. And so by not looking at directly 574 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:34,840 Speaker 1: at your boobs, if you're sitting across from me, I 575 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:37,839 Speaker 1: am signaling you know that. Oh well, I don't want 576 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,800 Speaker 1: you to feel even more embarrassed if I am drawing 577 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,000 Speaker 1: more attention to them with my eye laser beams that 578 00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:50,359 Speaker 1: I'm shooting out straight to your nips rouged rouged, I hope. Well, 579 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:54,320 Speaker 1: there is a group of radical feminists who are taking 580 00:36:54,360 --> 00:37:01,280 Speaker 1: the nation nip like fifty steps farther and useing toplessness 581 00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:05,920 Speaker 1: too protests they're really I mean, their boobs are as 582 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:10,000 Speaker 1: aggressive as they come. Yeah. Yeah, So Femine doesn't just 583 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:15,240 Speaker 1: protest the idea of having to keep your breasts covered. 584 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:20,600 Speaker 1: They are using their toplessness to protest all sorts of things, 585 00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:27,480 Speaker 1: including legalized prostitution, repressive regimes both in Russia or in 586 00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:31,280 Speaker 1: the Middle East, um religious institutions in the Pope. They 587 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:35,799 Speaker 1: protest Nazis in France, and speaking of aggressive, Na Shevchenko, 588 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:39,760 Speaker 1: who's the leader of Femine's Paris branch and training center, 589 00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:43,680 Speaker 1: specified to a Vice reporter that this is aggressive nudity. 590 00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:45,880 Speaker 1: In case there was any doubt in your mind about 591 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:49,680 Speaker 1: women going topless and getting a Nazise faces, it's it's 592 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:53,200 Speaker 1: meant to be aggressive. It is meant to attract the cameras. 593 00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:57,920 Speaker 1: People are always going to just kind of freak out 594 00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:00,960 Speaker 1: of the sight of a group of topless women, especially 595 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:03,360 Speaker 1: if they've painted their bodies with all sorts of slogans 596 00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:06,120 Speaker 1: and they're screaming about, you know, bringing down Nazis and 597 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:09,600 Speaker 1: things like that, and so they're using that male voyeurism 598 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,640 Speaker 1: to their advantage. Yeah, and they get a ton of 599 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:18,080 Speaker 1: press coverage anytime they protest because it's still I mean, 600 00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:22,000 Speaker 1: it's really radical to go out and protest topless in 601 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:24,560 Speaker 1: the way that they do. Now, not all feminists are 602 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:29,360 Speaker 1: down with their tactics. They've come under scrutiny for their 603 00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:36,160 Speaker 1: presentation possibly still sexualizing their own bodies, um, but also 604 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:40,920 Speaker 1: because of their anti sex worker stance. I mean, they 605 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:43,359 Speaker 1: really so much aren't about freeing the nipple. I think 606 00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:47,640 Speaker 1: is just like taking down these kinds of cultural and 607 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:52,200 Speaker 1: societal institutions or government institutions, religious institutions that they consider 608 00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:55,839 Speaker 1: to be repressive against women. This is about far more 609 00:38:56,360 --> 00:39:00,200 Speaker 1: than Instagram not shutting down your account if you take 610 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:03,120 Speaker 1: a nipple selfie. Yeah, And I hope it will be 611 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:07,400 Speaker 1: interesting to listeners when we do contrast those two approaches, 612 00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:09,439 Speaker 1: because in our next episode, we're going to talk about 613 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,040 Speaker 1: the free the Nipple movement, which has a lot to 614 00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:14,680 Speaker 1: do with social media and has gotten the support of 615 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,320 Speaker 1: several celebrities who have gotten their stuff taken off of 616 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:21,320 Speaker 1: Instagram and things like that because of a nipple flash 617 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:24,480 Speaker 1: here there. Well, and now it's time to hear from listeners. 618 00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:27,720 Speaker 1: We do want to hear your thoughts about toplessness, because 619 00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:31,200 Speaker 1: this is something I think everyone does have some kind 620 00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:33,080 Speaker 1: of opinion on, like, do you think that it should 621 00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:36,160 Speaker 1: be fine for women to go topless if they want to? 622 00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:40,000 Speaker 1: Do you think that these kinds of laws or arrests 623 00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:45,360 Speaker 1: are problematic and what they say about body politics and gender. 624 00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:50,240 Speaker 1: Send us your thoughts and maybe not your nipple selfies. 625 00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:54,040 Speaker 1: Mom Stuff at how stuffworks dot com is our email address. 626 00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:57,600 Speaker 1: You can also tweet us at Mom's Stuff podcast or 627 00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:00,160 Speaker 1: message us on Facebook. And we've got a couple of 628 00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:03,399 Speaker 1: messages that don't have to do with nipples right now. 629 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:13,480 Speaker 1: So I have a letter here from Brandon about our 630 00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:18,960 Speaker 1: podcast a while back on bisexual erasure, and he writes, 631 00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:22,880 Speaker 1: I'm a thirty seven year old married bisexual male also 632 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:25,200 Speaker 1: married to a twenty nine year old bisexual woman, and 633 00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:27,360 Speaker 1: have to say, you guys pretty much nailed the topic 634 00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:30,640 Speaker 1: right on the head. However, I did take issue with 635 00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:33,480 Speaker 1: a segment where you discussed House of Cards. It's one 636 00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:36,480 Speaker 1: of my favorite shows, and I think they absolutely nail 637 00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:40,600 Speaker 1: mail bisexuality. Although you guys seem to catch yourselves as 638 00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:42,759 Speaker 1: you were doing it, I still found your impression of 639 00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:46,760 Speaker 1: Frank Underwood's sexuality a bit insulting to me. He seems 640 00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:50,640 Speaker 1: very clearly bisexual, and he does not use the sexuality 641 00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:54,520 Speaker 1: as power moves how you described it. He clearly enjoys 642 00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:57,200 Speaker 1: sex with women and men, and in the sex scenes 643 00:40:57,239 --> 00:40:59,719 Speaker 1: with women both Claire and the female reporter, Frank is 644 00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:02,520 Speaker 1: clear really enjoying himself. It's not just a means to 645 00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:05,520 Speaker 1: an end. And you seem to make it seem that 646 00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:07,840 Speaker 1: Frank was only with Claire because their power couple, but 647 00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:09,879 Speaker 1: I don't see it that way. They both love each 648 00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:12,239 Speaker 1: other in their weird way, and Claire knows about and 649 00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:16,960 Speaker 1: is accepting a frank sexuality, and that's freaking awesome. Also, 650 00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:20,080 Speaker 1: you guys completely missed how his sexuality is part of 651 00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:23,560 Speaker 1: the show, or better put, not a part of the show. 652 00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:26,000 Speaker 1: His sexuality is just part of who he is, just 653 00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:29,360 Speaker 1: how a normal persons sexuality just is. He was in 654 00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:31,040 Speaker 1: love with a man he had an affair with in 655 00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:34,040 Speaker 1: college and still looks back on that nostalgically. But now 656 00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:37,759 Speaker 1: he loves Claire. He's not conflicted, not in the closet gay, 657 00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:40,080 Speaker 1: and I think it's one of the best portrayals of 658 00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:43,719 Speaker 1: male bisexuality and media I've ever seen. And you guys 659 00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:46,560 Speaker 1: just glossed over it as Frank's a power broker and 660 00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:49,360 Speaker 1: uses his sexuality as a means to an end. Instead, 661 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:51,360 Speaker 1: he's a power broker who will stop it nothing to 662 00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:54,680 Speaker 1: achieve what he wants. It's more power, but a sexuality 663 00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:59,000 Speaker 1: is something completely separate and also completely healthy in my opinion. 664 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:02,120 Speaker 1: Just want to to let you guys know, So thanks 665 00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:06,319 Speaker 1: Brandon for that insight. Yeah, major House of Cards fan there. 666 00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:10,399 Speaker 1: Um Well, I have a letter here from Hallie. She says, 667 00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:13,240 Speaker 1: I love the podcast, and I have a podcast suggestion 668 00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:15,480 Speaker 1: based on something I've been thinking about for a little while. 669 00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:18,680 Speaker 1: I've recently been having a conversation in my head about 670 00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:22,280 Speaker 1: being a progressive, pro choice, pro lgbt Q rights feminist 671 00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:27,000 Speaker 1: who also really really enjoys typical quote unquote domestic women's work. 672 00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:29,480 Speaker 1: I'm a twenty two year old woman and in a 673 00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:32,399 Speaker 1: serious relationship with a lovely man who recently bought a house. 674 00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:36,080 Speaker 1: I graduated from a progressive, liberal arts college and sometimes 675 00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:38,360 Speaker 1: felt out of place because although I shared many of 676 00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:41,400 Speaker 1: the same political views as my peers, my interests were different. 677 00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:44,280 Speaker 1: I've always loved cooking and loved the idea of cooking 678 00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:47,160 Speaker 1: for my family or partner. I enjoyed gardening, and I'm 679 00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:50,600 Speaker 1: a seamstress. I even like doing laundry. I find it pleasant. Hallie, 680 00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:53,680 Speaker 1: I love doing laundry too. It's okay, she goes on 681 00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:57,120 Speaker 1: to say, and I like being in a long term relationship. 682 00:42:57,239 --> 00:42:59,520 Speaker 1: I wouldn't like these things, of course, if I were 683 00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:02,160 Speaker 1: expect it to or forced to do them. I feel 684 00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:05,120 Speaker 1: appreciated for doing them. I enjoy putting in the effort 685 00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:07,359 Speaker 1: to take care of myself and my partner in these 686 00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:09,880 Speaker 1: ways because he returns that effort and care in his 687 00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:13,239 Speaker 1: own ways. I sometimes feel like I'm seeing as regressive, 688 00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:15,560 Speaker 1: and that really bothers me. I was wondering if y'all 689 00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:18,600 Speaker 1: have any resources for feminist writings that talk about being 690 00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:22,600 Speaker 1: domestic by choice. By the way, I'm not only domestic. 691 00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:25,719 Speaker 1: I am a multidimensional human being who has a job 692 00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:28,560 Speaker 1: and has been a rock climber since age fifteen. I 693 00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:30,800 Speaker 1: want to be able to defend all of my choices 694 00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:34,920 Speaker 1: as feminist ones, because I believe that they are just that. Well, 695 00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:38,080 Speaker 1: how I I have to say that I love laundry too, 696 00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:41,920 Speaker 1: and I don't think it makes me a bad feminist. No, 697 00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:43,920 Speaker 1: it just means you have clean clothes. It means I 698 00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:47,600 Speaker 1: love the instant gratification of taking a pile of dirty things, 699 00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:50,080 Speaker 1: putting them through the wash, and then coming out and 700 00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:53,680 Speaker 1: folding them, and then they go in the closet. It's wonderful. Well, 701 00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:56,040 Speaker 1: as always, we want to hear all of your thoughts 702 00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:58,319 Speaker 1: mom stuff at house. Stuff works dot Com is our 703 00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:01,000 Speaker 1: email address and for links to of our social media 704 00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:04,040 Speaker 1: as well as all of our blogs, videos and podcasts, 705 00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:07,440 Speaker 1: including this one with our sources so you can learn 706 00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:11,359 Speaker 1: more about the history and laws of female toplessness, head 707 00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:14,480 Speaker 1: on over to stuff Mom Never Told You dot com.