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Speaker 1: Also media. Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted

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Speaker 1: to let you know this is a compilation episode. So

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Speaker 1: every episode of the week that just happened is here

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Speaker 1: in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for

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Speaker 1: you to listen to in a long stretch if you want.

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Speaker 1: If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 1: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 1: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to it could happen to hear a podcast about

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Speaker 2: things falling apart and how to put them back together again.

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Speaker 2: I am your host, Mia Wong, and today we are

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Speaker 2: going to be talking about, frankly, the largest and most

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Speaker 2: raconian trans healthcare band in the country and the unexpected

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Speaker 2: place that well, I don't know if unexpected is the

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Speaker 2: right word, but the ignored place that it's come from.

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Speaker 2: And with me to talk about this band is David Forbes,

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Speaker 2: who is an editor and a journalist with the Trans

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Speaker 2: News Network. David, Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 3: Always good to be here.

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Speaker 2: I once again back to my I wish I could

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Speaker 2: have people on the show to talk about like cool

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Speaker 2: and normal things, but you know, we get that sometimes

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Speaker 2: this is not one of those stories.

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Speaker 3: I mean, we're trans journalists and a dying empire, you know.

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Speaker 2: Let's yeah, So, speaking of bad things happening in dying empires,

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Speaker 2: do you want to take a sort of to the

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Speaker 2: start of this healthcare ban and what we're even talking

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Speaker 2: about here, because it's not a government healthcare band in

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Speaker 2: the way I think people expect.

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Speaker 3: No, And that's actually really important to all this story

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Speaker 3: because a lot of the attention in healthcare bans has

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Speaker 3: been on governments and occasionally hospitals like secular hospital systems

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Speaker 3: refusing to revide care because they're scared of the federal government.

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Speaker 3: So it's been a portrays a fight between governments or

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Speaker 3: a fight over stuff happening at legislatures. And to be clear,

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Speaker 3: that's off is absolutely important.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: However, this ban wasn't put in place by a legislature.

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Speaker 3: It's not any institution that people have even the facade

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Speaker 3: of an ability to really influence. On November twelfth, twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty five, a complete and total trans healthcare ban medications

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Speaker 3: as well as surgeries adults as well as youth was

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Speaker 3: put in place throughout every healthcare system run by the

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Speaker 3: Catholic Church in the US.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that has not really like I don't know,

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Speaker 2: like I've talked about it, like we've mentioned it on

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Speaker 2: the show before. I don't know if I've really seen

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Speaker 2: any other like systemic, large scale coverage of it. I mean,

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Speaker 2: there were like a couple of articles when it came out,

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Speaker 2: but other than TNN, like this has been almost completely ignored,

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Speaker 2: even though it is more draconian than any any healthcare

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Speaker 2: band that has gone into effect anywhere in the country.

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Speaker 2: It is it's again, as you said this, Yes, this

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Speaker 2: is a total healthcare band for children and adults.

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Speaker 3: Yes, and for all types of trans healthcare yeah, for everything. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: And that's the thing. So I've honestly been a little

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Speaker 3: surprised by that, even old and cynical as I am.

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Speaker 3: But TNN, as far as I know, is one of

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Speaker 3: the only outlets, including a queer and trans media I

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Speaker 3: won't say the only, but one of the only that

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Speaker 3: has done ongoing coverage on this, let alone in depth,

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Speaker 3: extensive what are the roots of this? How did we

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Speaker 3: get here? Kind of coverage. I've done two articles on it,

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Speaker 3: and those were in December, so a few weeks after

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Speaker 3: it passed. We kind of went in detail on what

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Speaker 3: it meant and the implications of which were and have

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Speaker 3: proven to be pretty horrifying. And also the Catholic Church

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Speaker 3: is pretty horrific history as an institution. While individual Catholics

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Speaker 3: have a as we'll get to, have a wide range

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Speaker 3: of beliefs, including on trans rights, the institution itself has

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Speaker 3: always been highly abusive, highly reactionary, an incredibly opposed to

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Speaker 3: our very existence, and that just hasn't changed as actually escalating.

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Speaker 3: And then we did one just last week that was

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Speaker 3: on the actual impact, Like we talked to trans people

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Speaker 3: around the country who'd encountered the impact of the bishop's

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Speaker 3: ban as I've heard a few folks call it, and

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Speaker 3: I called a few downs myself, and what it means

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Speaker 3: for their lives in the ground.

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Speaker 2: So I guess there's two points we should hit immediately.

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Speaker 2: One is sort of how this happened, like how this

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Speaker 2: band sort of came together and was voted on by

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Speaker 2: like who. And the second one is how many people

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Speaker 2: this affects, because I think this is the part that's

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Speaker 2: really been ignored, which is that like Catholic hospitals, it's

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Speaker 2: not like they're running like ten of these. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it would be bad if they were running ten of these.

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Speaker 2: But this is a significant part of the entire US

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Speaker 2: healthcare system, Yes, a massive.

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Speaker 3: Part of it. Yeah, So I think I think that's

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Speaker 3: very important to kind of touch on. So this was

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Speaker 3: passed in November at the US Conference of Catholic Bishops,

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Speaker 3: which they have regular meetings and decide policies and stuff,

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Speaker 3: and it's one of the things, and this is going

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Speaker 3: to be a recurring theme. And this is the degree

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Speaker 3: to which I think even people think of themselves as

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Speaker 3: progressive fairly left have kind of bought hook line and

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Speaker 3: sinker some of the propaganda. And it is overwhelmingly propaganda

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Speaker 3: coming out of the Catholic Church since the mid twenty

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Speaker 3: tens when Pope Francis got in. So you were seeing

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Speaker 3: from this conference the big news in a lot of

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Speaker 3: progressive circles was, oh, well, they made this statement against

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Speaker 3: the Trump administration immigration. But here's the thing. That was

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Speaker 3: a statement. Certainly it's better than if they supported ice,

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Speaker 3: but it was a symbolic step largely.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Like they didn't even do like the very baseline thing,

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Speaker 2: which would be like excommunicating JD.

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Speaker 3: Vance.

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Speaker 2: The thing they could do and did it because they're

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Speaker 2: fucking hours.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but they didn't even do that. Yes, and we're

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Speaker 3: going to get back to that and often worse than powers. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So at this conference that got most of the headlines,

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Speaker 3: but they also passed this very draconian anti trans healthcare band.

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Speaker 3: It passed overwhelmingly. This was not like some narrow victory

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Speaker 3: by the conservative faction.

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Speaker 2: No, it was almost everyone.

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Speaker 3: It passed two oh six to seven. Yeah, Jesus Christ. Interestingly,

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Speaker 3: it was interesting listening to some of the proceedings of

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Speaker 3: this which may not be great for mental health, but

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Speaker 3: was quite informative and one of the one of the

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Speaker 3: bishops involved, Robert Barron, cited Pope Francis, who was held

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Speaker 3: out even sadly by some queer media as being this

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Speaker 3: step forward for queer and trans rights, which I think

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Speaker 3: was completely a farce, held out his rampant transphobia, which

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Speaker 3: was always very clear about, and quoted him saying that

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Speaker 3: viewed the existence of trans people, they used the far

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Speaker 3: right term gender ideology as and I quote, repugnant to

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Speaker 3: the Bible and to our tradition. You could not ask

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Speaker 3: for a more clear statement of hatred and extermination against

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Speaker 3: trans people. Yeah, I mean, that's it. This is non

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Speaker 3: institution that you know is slowly but surely getting better.

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Speaker 3: This institution that outside of the PR is getting worse

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Speaker 3: yet is digging in on doing real variactionary harm. And

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Speaker 3: so the effects of that we're pretty devastating and immediate.

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Speaker 3: I mean, we'll get into some folks who dealt with

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Speaker 3: stuff later that same month due to this band in

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Speaker 3: a little bit. But like the Catholic Church's healthcare networks

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Speaker 3: are massive. By some estimates, one in six one in

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Speaker 3: seven of all people in the US go through a

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Speaker 3: Catholic health care system at some point in a given

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Speaker 3: a year. It doesn't just include a few hospitals and

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Speaker 3: includes an incredibly sprawling network of clinics and specialists and

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Speaker 3: doctors practices, plenty of them are not outwardly Catholic. Even

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Speaker 3: so people maybe going to a practice owner rum of

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Speaker 3: the Catholic Church and not even be aware of it.

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Speaker 3: It's also expanding, it's taking over and buying out previously

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Speaker 3: secular practices. And this is a multifacet problem. Goes along

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Speaker 3: with cuts in federal aid, It goes along with the

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Speaker 3: general like capitalist fervor that kind of grips secular healthcres

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Speaker 3: as well. So if they cut services, the Catholic Church

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Speaker 3: often buys them up and expands, so it affects everyone

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Speaker 3: in that everyone who deals with that, and the kind

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Speaker 3: of tears has never been pro trans remotely. But previously,

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Speaker 3: prior to this band, there was kind of a hodgepodge

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Speaker 3: and some local ambiguities, and there were cases that we'll

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Speaker 3: get into some of them a second, where local pro

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Speaker 3: trans Catholics are folks working at those networks could and

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Speaker 3: did provide pretty substantial trans care through like one ambiguity

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Speaker 3: or loophole or another that just ended all of it.

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Speaker 3: So throughout that entire network in some states and ones

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Speaker 3: you wouldn't necessarily think, including the ones like Oregon and

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Speaker 3: Washington that are ostensibly supposed to have like pretty strict

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Speaker 3: trans healthcare protections, Catholic hospitals comprise like over a third

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Speaker 3: of hospital beds, and I think Washington's over forty percent,

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Speaker 3: So we're talking about of healthcare beds. We're talking about

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Speaker 3: a substantial part of the American healthcare system. Four and

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Speaker 3: ten of the largest healthcare networks are Catholic. That's how extensive.

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Speaker 3: If this was and now trans healthcare is banned and

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Speaker 3: all of them absolutely.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's something that has an absolutely massive rolling impact,

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Speaker 2: right because again it's not just that it's like outwardly

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Speaker 2: Catholic hospitals, and it's something I think you're going to

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Speaker 2: talk about more later, but it's also like it's people

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Speaker 2: who have healthcare plans through like something that's affiliated with

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Speaker 2: the church. There are all of these ways in which

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Speaker 2: you know, suddenly just enormous numbers of people had their

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Speaker 2: healthcare taken away effectively overnight. Because the primary way that

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Speaker 2: anti trans healthcare oppression has been understood has been for

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Speaker 2: the state level. And I understand why it's like that

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Speaker 2: because like a lot of it has been coming from

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Speaker 2: the state both on this is where you get into

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Speaker 2: confusing American terminology, but both in terms of the federal

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Speaker 2: government and the state state level governments. Right, people, there's

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Speaker 2: been a huge focus on that, but the distribution of

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Speaker 2: the Catholic health care system is cutting through the lines

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Speaker 2: of what people sort of have previously assumed to be safe. Yes,

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Speaker 2: and this is something that is a threat to trans

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Speaker 2: people effectively everywhere. And it's compounding, as you're talking about earlier,

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Speaker 2: with the sort of crisis of affordability and coverage because

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Speaker 2: a lot of these healthcare clinics and hospitals and practices

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Speaker 2: are the ones that are actually covered by insurance. Yes,

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Speaker 2: and you can switch to like their secular ones, but

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Speaker 2: you can't go to them because they're not covered by

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Speaker 2: your fucking insurance. They're unbelievably expensive.

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Speaker 3: And this gets to a reality that goes through a

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Speaker 3: lot of our coverage, which is that trains people are

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Speaker 3: an overwhelmingly working class demographic.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I don't think that gets sad enough. It doesn't get

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Speaker 3: picked even in some queer in trans media, but that

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Speaker 3: is incredibly important here. I began the second story with

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Speaker 3: an interview that we published with an interview with Beth,

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Speaker 3: who's a transom in the Midwest and found it nearly

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Speaker 3: impossible to find healthcare outside of their networks because, like

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Speaker 3: a lot of trans people, Beth has an ACA plan,

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Speaker 3: and because the secular networks are a little more expensive,

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Speaker 3: some cases a lot more expensive, the ACA plans that

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Speaker 3: are available to most trans people, you know that they

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Speaker 3: can remotely afford, don't cover healthcare there, so you kind

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Speaker 3: of have to and then they don't provide your health

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Speaker 3: care at all. Yeah, And in that case, this was

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Speaker 3: someone she'd been going across state borders, which she noticed

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Speaker 3: kind of wild to get healthcare anyway, to go to

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Speaker 3: Planned parenthood. Finally thought that she had found a practice

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Speaker 3: closer to home. Went there before the bishop's ban, like

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Speaker 3: right before it hit. They'd seemed very welcoming. She knew

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Speaker 3: other trans people that had gotten a care there before

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Speaker 3: and everything seemed great. Goes back after the ban and

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Speaker 3: it's like, oh, I'm sorry, we can't help you. And

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Speaker 3: this wasn't a practice that was obviously Catholic, you know,

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Speaker 3: didn't no giant cruise fixes or anything hanging on it. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: it was just one that was, oh, it's a doctor's

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Speaker 3: office some other trans that you have gotten care there.

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Speaker 3: It beats driving at least an hour each way, if

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Speaker 3: not more.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Again, when you're working glass, a two hour you know

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Speaker 3: roundtrip commute is a lot. That's you know, especially with

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Speaker 3: gas being up more like, that's a lot of money,

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Speaker 3: and it's strained things even further. And so she had

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Speaker 3: to go back to traveling across state. But you know,

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Speaker 3: I think some folks assume and she points out, like, oh,

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Speaker 3: you just go another provider. You often can't. There's not

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Speaker 3: that option.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there isn't one.

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Speaker 3: Even in some fairly major cities. There is not that

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Speaker 3: option unless you have a lot more money or healthcare

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Speaker 3: through a fairly well healed employer, and a lot of us,

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Speaker 3: don't you know.

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Speaker 2: This is another one of the problems here, which is

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Speaker 2: that trans people are overwhelmingly working class. It is one

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Speaker 2: of the worst demographics at poverty rate of any any

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Speaker 2: demographic group in the US. Yes, the unemployment levels are

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Speaker 2: like like this was like totally three back when the

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Speaker 2: economy was like working was like nineteen thirty six, great

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Speaker 2: depression levels.

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Speaker 3: Yes, incarceration rates, education rates, it's all among the poorest

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Speaker 3: of the poor.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so all apocalyptically bad.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Then there is the issue, and this is an issue

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Speaker 2: that we've covered on the show from other lenses, which

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Speaker 2: is that like, yeah, like we're dealing with these like

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Speaker 2: large scale waves of hospital closures and the less hospitals

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Speaker 2: that exist in an area, and particularly in the sort

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Speaker 2: of working class areas where these people are living, right,

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Speaker 2: the more those hospitals close, because those are the ones

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Speaker 2: that are closing because they're losing a whole bunch of

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Speaker 2: funding from the government. Yeah, and you know, there's like

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Speaker 2: there's a series of other economic pressures there. The more

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Speaker 2: those options disappear, the more reliant people are on on

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Speaker 2: these Catholic hospitals which have just implemented an adult healthcare band,

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Speaker 2: Like the Republicans in Congress aren't pushing that right now, No,

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Speaker 2: Like I cannot emphatasize how unbelievably draconian and reactionary this is.

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Speaker 3: Yes, well, and also they're doing it the same time

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Speaker 3: that you have major progressive media figures, legislators praising the

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Speaker 3: current pope for uttering some words about universal health care.

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Speaker 3: They don't practice universal health care, not just with trans people,

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Speaker 3: but definitely not with trans people.

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Speaker 2: It's like they have the money too, like they could, yeah,

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Speaker 2: and they don't.

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Speaker 5: Like.

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Speaker 3: There's a story in investigating this that really set out

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Speaker 3: to me, and it was from a pharmacy intern. Basically,

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Speaker 3: someone as I'm studying to be a pharmacist and did

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Speaker 3: a you know, a stint, a training stint in a

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Speaker 3: Catholic hospital right before the bishop's ban hit and said

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Speaker 3: that they were doing at least one gender affirming procedure

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Speaker 3: a week Jesus Christ a week, and that actually, you know,

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Speaker 3: this was someone who who had dealt with the situ

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Speaker 3: to the Ford and had not their great experiences and

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Speaker 3: was actually heading into this, you know, kind of this

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Speaker 3: twelve week stint, expecting to have to deal with, you know,

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Speaker 3: the problems of being a transpersonal with a religious institution.

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Speaker 3: And I actually said, know that this particular hospital, the

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Speaker 3: folks who worked there were super pro trains, super accepting,

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Speaker 3: they were actively providing trains care and mentioned even because

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Speaker 3: it was a moral area and that's that sat alone,

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Speaker 3: that was you know, a gender firming care procedure most weeks.

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Speaker 3: Should be a reminder that a lot of trains people

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Speaker 3: also don't live in major cities. They live in smaller cities,

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Speaker 3: They live in small towns, rural areas, even by a mile. Actually,

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Speaker 3: the region of the US with the largest trans population

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Speaker 3: is the South, and the Midwest is very closely tied

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Speaker 3: with the West, which includes the West Coast. Per second,

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Speaker 3: so they mentioned that there's this was a sentiments of

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Speaker 3: the staff like, look, if you're in La Okay, there's

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Speaker 3: a bunch of Catholic hostles with a bunch of other

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Speaker 3: ones too. So the people seeking out Catholic hospitals may

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Speaker 3: be a bit more conservative there are more likely to

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Speaker 3: be other alternatives now to healthcare access can be a

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Speaker 3: problem there too, But in our area, the kind of

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Speaker 3: staff had a sense, look, if we don't do it,

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Speaker 3: no one else will. Yeah, and so they didn't be

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Speaker 3: pretty pro trains. The loophole they used the ambiguit I

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Speaker 3: guess the art we're gonna use was if an ensure

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Speaker 3: secular or otherwise said hey, this procedure is necessary, they

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Speaker 3: didn't question it. And under the previous pre bishops band situation,

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Speaker 3: there was kind of that bit of that leeway. This

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Speaker 3: is an example of you know, some of them Catholic

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Speaker 3: pro trans folks in a royal area actually doing some

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Speaker 3: real good and then because they kind of maneuvered in

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Speaker 3: this gray area and this band just completely into that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: They also described because they actually had top surgery scheduled

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Speaker 3: at this same hospital and the band hit and they're

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Speaker 3: very thankful to the doctor who did you know, surgeries

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Speaker 3: at that hospital, who intentionally just kind of kept them

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Speaker 3: on the schedule.

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Speaker 2: Incredibly incredible.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but like we need way more of that. But

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Speaker 3: also it just got a lot more difficult and a

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Speaker 3: lot more hurdles were placed in the way of that.

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Speaker 3: So like what was happening just got cut off.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, And this is.

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Speaker 2: Also a really a really stificant issue because trans healthcare

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Speaker 2: is already even before this, you know, like the wait

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Speaker 2: list for think things like top sers and things like

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Speaker 2: bottom surgery or sometimes years long, even in places that

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Speaker 2: have like quote unquote like good healthcare, right like even

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Speaker 2: in places like Oregon or like yeah, you know, in

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Speaker 2: places like LA, Like you're dealing with multi year wait

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Speaker 2: lists to get these procedures, and suddenly like a seventh

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Speaker 2: of all the people doing this are just gone, and

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Speaker 2: that just contributes even if you can get.

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Speaker 3: And someplace is half yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And the number of people who do these procedures

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Speaker 2: is so small that if you are looking to get

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Speaker 2: these procedures, like you can talk to the trans people

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Speaker 2: in your area and they will know every single doctor

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Speaker 2: who does it, right, Yes, because there's like three maybe

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Speaker 2: if you're lucky, there's like three.

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Speaker 3: Usually there's like one, like even on the HRT front

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Speaker 3: sometimes and I can speak from experience on this, you know,

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Speaker 3: it's often kind of an icebreaker of like, oh, you

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Speaker 3: know which medical practice is giving you your hr T

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Speaker 3: down because there's like two maybe three if you're lucky. Yep,

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Speaker 3: and that's might be for a whole region. Yeah, and

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Speaker 3: you know, a lot of transform maybe even most live

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Speaker 3: outside of what you think of the few, you know,

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Speaker 3: major metropolis. But also there was a while I was

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Speaker 3: looking into this, there was a case in twenty seventeen,

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Speaker 3: is before the bishop's ban, where at Catholic Hospital in California,

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Speaker 3: which on paper at least has fairly strong trans healthcare

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Speaker 3: protections for the US, where a priest with no medical

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Speaker 3: experience comes in last minute, veto's the top surgery for

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Speaker 3: a transman, and they kick him out on the streets,

359
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Speaker 3: still on the drugs, the pre surgery drug.

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Speaker 2: What the fuck Jesus Christ.

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Speaker 3: He sued them rightly. Yeah, like you know, this is

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Speaker 3: this is a hospital in your California. We could go

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Speaker 3: into it a little bit in the story. So like

364
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Speaker 3: that was happening before, but that's not everywhere. Yeah, and

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Speaker 3: the few cases like the hospital that we mentioned, where

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Speaker 3: there were folks working around that to still provide some healthcare,

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Speaker 3: that's probably gone round. I would say it's almost certainly

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Speaker 3: gone less. Folks are really just breaking the rules, which

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Speaker 3: they should.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but this is sort of the systemic problem with

371
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Speaker 2: having the church hierarchy having control over these healthcare institutions,

372
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Speaker 2: which is that even if you are just like in

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Speaker 2: the institution, trying to do good and you believe on

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Speaker 2: the right thing, and you're trying to do the right thing,

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Speaker 2: it doesn't matter, yeah, because suddenly just the hammer can

376
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Speaker 2: come down on you from above, and even if you

377
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Speaker 2: keep doing it right, there's always just the risk that

378
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Speaker 2: they're just going to fire you all.

379
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Speaker 3: At best, it is highly precarious.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's this really kind of I don't know,

381
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Speaker 2: this kind of like brutal demonstration of the reality that

382
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Speaker 2: in a hierarchical institution, it kind of doesn't matter what

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Speaker 2: the people on the bottom believe, because at the stroke

384
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Speaker 2: of a pen, two hundred reactionaries who run your fucking

385
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Speaker 2: institution can just come in and be like, no, fuck you,

386
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Speaker 2: none of you get healthcare.

387
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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Well, and not just that, but run a substantial amount

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Speaker 3: of the entire American health care system.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

391
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, and this is actually why, and this

392
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Speaker 3: is a a larger factor. I have survived the literal

393
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Speaker 3: fundamentalist Christian violence when I was when I was younger,

394
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Speaker 3: and I think this is actually something we will probably

395
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Speaker 3: get into it a little bit like I've ever gotten

396
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Speaker 3: the aversion, especially from queer and trans organizations, to criticize

397
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Speaker 3: their distitutions. And didn't always used to be this way,

398
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Speaker 3: but it's definitely been this way, including on this issue,

399
00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:24,920
Speaker 3: because you know, you will look in vain for a

400
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Speaker 3: major national organization that's like taking the Catholic Church and

401
00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:31,240
Speaker 3: task go for this, yeah once with millions dollars of budgets,

402
00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:34,080
Speaker 3: you know, apparently their higher ups they are too busy,

403
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Speaker 3: you know, taking first class flights and raking in nearly

404
00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:41,000
Speaker 3: a million dollars a year, while trans people can't find jobs,

405
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Speaker 3: you know. But like, yeah, so I've never gotten the

406
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Speaker 3: aversion because for a lot of us on the ground,

407
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Speaker 3: for a lot of us, who are you know, among

408
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Speaker 3: the many, many many trans people that are working class

409
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Speaker 3: that live outside some of the like you know, handful

410
00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:58,479
Speaker 3: metropoli that we often get depicted as exclusively living in

411
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Speaker 3: fundamentals violence, you know, to be and to be clear

412
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Speaker 3: from plenty of like Protestant evangelicals as well. Yeah, never

413
00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:08,920
Speaker 3: stopped it never stopped being a very serious and real threat.

414
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Speaker 3: Their numbers have gone down since the nineties, you know,

415
00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:14,159
Speaker 3: in the early two thousands. Yeah, but it's never stopped

416
00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:17,080
Speaker 3: being something you really have to have to account for,

417
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Speaker 3: whether it's institutional. Even if it's totally illegal, they'll still

418
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Speaker 3: do it like it in California, or literal like street violence,

419
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Speaker 3: literally like people attacking you with weapons. So I think

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Speaker 3: that's definitely a factor in all this, and I think

421
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Speaker 3: it's a sad factor in why folks haven't heard about it. Yeah,

422
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:36,400
Speaker 3: and you know, in some of the stuff I've talked

423
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Speaker 3: about before on the show and elsewhere, I've mentioned that

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Speaker 3: I think that whatever in the intent behind it, the

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Speaker 3: gay ink, as it were, the structure of you know,

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Speaker 3: these larger nonprofits which even send down like the local

427
00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:50,800
Speaker 3: and state level at some points, and the culture from

428
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:52,359
Speaker 3: them that kind of is more satisfy and more so

429
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Speaker 3: much just kind of dictates a lot of like official

430
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Speaker 3: at least queer in trans politics has been a disaster failure.

431
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Speaker 3: And I think that's even you know, even more apparent.

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Speaker 3: Here this is again the largest motorconian trains healthcare in

433
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Speaker 3: the US. It's already happened, already in place, and you

434
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Speaker 3: will look in vain for any organizing from the issuations

435
00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:16,240
Speaker 3: they're supposed to protect trains rights against it Yeah, there

436
00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:19,080
Speaker 3: aren't like big lawsuits being filed. There's not like you know,

437
00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:21,959
Speaker 3: Expass being run. They have far more resources than they are,

438
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Speaker 3: you know, worker run newsroom would do a lot with

439
00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:26,560
Speaker 3: what we have. We encourage people to support us, but

440
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:29,240
Speaker 3: like they have a lot more resources to make those

441
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:32,159
Speaker 3: things a large national issue. They have chosen not to,

442
00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:34,480
Speaker 3: and a lot of people are going to suffer for that,

443
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:35,520
Speaker 3: are suffering for that.

444
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:39,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I should mention too on an actual policy level,

445
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:43,400
Speaker 2: like a full scale healthcare ban on adult trans healthcare

446
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:46,200
Speaker 2: is like hideously unpopular. Like there's a reason that Republicans

447
00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:50,720
Speaker 2: haven't done it, Yeah, right, because it's not popular. So

448
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:54,679
Speaker 2: this is this is a winning issue, yes, right, And

449
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:57,800
Speaker 2: they won't fucking take up the fight because they're too.

450
00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 3: Busy glazing the papacite. Not just them, I mean progress

451
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,639
Speaker 3: of us in general are are lately in the papacy

452
00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:03,320
Speaker 3: way too much.

453
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:06,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's just this issue that trickles down to

454
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:10,120
Speaker 2: to like the fact that the SBC, right, the Southern

455
00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:11,840
Speaker 2: Baptist Convention, the fact that there hasn't been a sort

456
00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:14,879
Speaker 2: of broadscale offensive against them, you know, even though they've been.

457
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:16,080
Speaker 3: Like drawing some massive problem.

458
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:18,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, driving those like all of this ship for

459
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:20,399
Speaker 2: fucking ages, and they were like, you know, like there

460
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:22,520
Speaker 2: was a point, like a couple of years ago where

461
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,280
Speaker 2: they were genuinely seriously weakened by their series of like

462
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:29,840
Speaker 2: eve general abuse scandals. Yes, and like even though like

463
00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,399
Speaker 2: these are like the church groups that are also backing

464
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:37,240
Speaker 2: the healthcare bands on the legislative level, there's no sort

465
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:41,240
Speaker 2: of political will to actually go to war with the

466
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,240
Speaker 2: right wing churches that are doing this stuff.

467
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 3: Well, so, any this is an interesting difference, and it

468
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:49,520
Speaker 3: relates to what we're just talking about. The sentiments I

469
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:53,359
Speaker 3: hear among trans folks in the ground, you know, working

470
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:57,119
Speaker 3: class trains folks. It's pretty anti clerical, like to put it,

471
00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:01,960
Speaker 3: to put it mildly, it tends to be more gentry types,

472
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,119
Speaker 3: especially ones more in Scotts's institutions or like you know,

473
00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:08,600
Speaker 3: official political culture, the gang stuff we've been mentioning that

474
00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 3: have more of this aversion. And I will have to

475
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:14,080
Speaker 3: say it wasn't always this way. I am old enough

476
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:19,920
Speaker 3: to remember when queer organizing taking aim at mocking, even

477
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:24,480
Speaker 3: go directly going the attack against suing definitely religious institutions

478
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:28,680
Speaker 3: was a pretty common fixture a prominent example, and I

479
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 3: deal with this in the earlier piece as well as

480
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,359
Speaker 3: touching on the more recent one was act UPS nineteen

481
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 3: eighty nine stopped the Church Action, which you imagine a

482
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,439
Speaker 3: queer or doing an action with that title today, in

483
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:44,160
Speaker 3: which case they militantly disrupted services to Saint Patrick's Cathedral

484
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,119
Speaker 3: in New York because of the ridiculous homophobia of the

485
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:51,120
Speaker 3: Catholic Church. That's werell in the ation asides. Yeah, and

486
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:53,320
Speaker 3: if there's some video of this that we that we

487
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,000
Speaker 3: linked in that first story from act UPS archives, and

488
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,159
Speaker 3: I've had the signs hilarious, but there's stuff that you

489
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:03,040
Speaker 3: would immediately see tone placing about even from some trans

490
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:05,760
Speaker 3: queer and trans media today. Yeah, you know, oh, we

491
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 3: shouldn't alienate normies. All this, all that, and no, hey,

492
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 3: there was a big backlash of the time, a huge one.

493
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 3: The President condemned it, you know, the federal officials condemned it,

494
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 3: the Congress critics condemned it. You know, there was this

495
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 3: giant attack. This was unacceptable beyond the pale. It also

496
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:24,159
Speaker 3: worked the Catholics did start backing off their stances because

497
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 3: they didn't want to be attacked more. And I think

498
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 3: it's a good example that stop looking at the damn

499
00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:33,200
Speaker 3: poles and just fight them. Yeah, you know, it's generally

500
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,440
Speaker 3: a much better approach. And I think I have to say,

501
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 3: I think part of this, as you've seen, especially with

502
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,399
Speaker 3: how you know, the co option of some of the

503
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 3: results of equal marriage, when you saw after that era

504
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:48,800
Speaker 3: gay and groups use that to become like the predominant

505
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 3: force and keep a lot of other organizing and queer

506
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:56,200
Speaker 3: and transactivism. You saw this backing away from ever criticizing

507
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,399
Speaker 3: religious institutions. I mean, the advocate named Pope Francis in

508
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:01,120
Speaker 3: twenty thirteen their person of the Year.

509
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:03,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, and like this is the guy who said that

510
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 2: she said that gender ideology is more dangerous to the

511
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:07,199
Speaker 2: world than nuclear weapons.

512
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 3: Yes again Yeah, individual Catholics of their own sets of

513
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 3: beliefs and differ. Some are very obviously pro trans, but

514
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:27,880
Speaker 3: like the institution is very unequivocal on this. It has

515
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,200
Speaker 3: never stopped being that. Yeah, and long time journalist covering

516
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 3: the Catholic Church, you know, caution that. Look, the term

517
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,600
Speaker 3: they used was changing the tone but keeping the same

518
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:41,160
Speaker 3: music for Francis's papacy. Yeah, and Leo is very much

519
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 3: in that now. I think that actually opens up a

520
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 3: weakness because with the you know, revelation of the horrific

521
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 3: levels of serial child abuse within the Catholic Church, with

522
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:53,200
Speaker 3: the you know, atrocities on massive scales involvement indigenous genocide,

523
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 3: with the attacks in the eighties and ninety and two

524
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 3: thousands about their homophobia and the role in the agent

525
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:01,119
Speaker 3: asides as well, like there was actually starting to be

526
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 3: this giant institution despite how higherarchical and an accountablies were

527
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 3: starting to be on the back foot. And you know,

528
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:08,679
Speaker 3: in some places like Ireland, this has led to its

529
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 3: power numbers being like taking a massive hit. So there

530
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 3: was a shift, like any institution, to give a hinder face.

531
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 3: And the depressing thing is that among a lot of

532
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 3: people should know better, it's largely worked. Yeah, and I

533
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 3: really wish it would be less taken it by symbolism.

534
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,920
Speaker 3: It's also like the facto with theocrisy, because one of

535
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 3: the people we talked to, Allison, would try to get

536
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,120
Speaker 3: testoster and right off the bishop's ban they're not Catholic,

537
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:41,200
Speaker 3: their doctor isn't Catholic, their pharmacy is not Catholic. Yeah,

538
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:44,120
Speaker 3: so you'd think, okay, well you should be able to no, no, no.

539
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 3: The insurance that their spouse had was technically provided through

540
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,680
Speaker 3: a Catholic health care network, so it took them months

541
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:54,639
Speaker 3: before they finally got the test saster or not, and

542
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 3: so now they have to pay out a pocket for it.

543
00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 3: They can for the time being, but for working class

544
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:02,040
Speaker 3: trains people, that's one more costs on top of everything else,

545
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:05,399
Speaker 3: and eventually those are costs you often can't bear. So

546
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 3: like that, that's the reality.

547
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the realities is unaccountable the deocratic rule. Yeah,

548
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:13,760
Speaker 2: in areas where it's not supposed to be.

549
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 3: Happening exactly well, and potentially any area you know, if

550
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:22,120
Speaker 3: you have a secular practice today delivers you HRT no issue.

551
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 3: It could get bought out by one of these networks tomorrow. Yep.

552
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,440
Speaker 2: Why the fuck do these religious institutions have the ability

553
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 2: to influence like healthcare at all?

554
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:31,879
Speaker 3: Yeah?

555
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,959
Speaker 2: Right, It's something you would think would be not a

556
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 2: place where someone else's religion can suddenly yeah, and not

557
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 2: even like that person's religion. It's like the religious hierarchy

558
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 2: of a church should not be able to dictate whether

559
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 2: someone gets healthcare. And yet yeah, this goes well beyond

560
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 2: the you know, even supposed power in a secular side

561
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 2: that you know, religiouship have all we can you know,

562
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 2: they can make this pronouncement that applies to those who

563
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 2: believe in that religion or that specific denomination or institution

564
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 2: or whatever. Now this is affecting plenty of people who

565
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 2: have never set foot in a Catholic church, Yeah, who

566
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 2: are remotely Catholic. Even the providers that they're going to

567
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 2: aren't Catholic.

568
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 3: And this is still happening because that's the kind of

569
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 3: sway and power they have, and it's not been seriously challenged,

570
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 3: including by the liberals and even to me leftists and

571
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 3: given to the Southern Baptis Convention earlier. It isn't just

572
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 3: the Catholic Church, but because of the sheer scale and

573
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 3: the centralized nature of its hierarchy, they are certainly probably

574
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 3: the single most damaging institution on this front. The SBC

575
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 3: is a problem. While they operate on far too vast

576
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 3: a scale, they don't operate in the scale the Catholic

577
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 3: Church does.

578
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is you know fundamentally, like part of the

579
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 2: issue here is just is just there's a I don't

580
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 2: know if advantage is the right term here, but like

581
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 2: the centralization of the Catholic Church relative to like the

582
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 2: sort of divided Protestants and nominations allows them to wield

583
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 2: power like collectively in a way that is a lot

584
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 2: harder for something like the SBC where just like it

585
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 2: just doesn't have the scale that like that that the

586
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 2: Church does and like that the Catholic Church doesn't. Because

587
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 2: the Catholic Church is this large, is able to just

588
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 2: buy out this much of the hospital system. And then

589
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 2: because of the of the top down structures where the

590
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 2: bishops can just go and and vote and do and

591
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 2: implement this stuff. It's a really really really significant problem. Yes,

592
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 2: that is just not being dealt with. This is not

593
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 2: a problem that you can just like snap your fingers

594
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 2: and solve by like running stuff through a state legislature.

595
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 2: Like you actually have to go after the institution. You

596
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 2: have to fight them on their ground.

597
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 3: Yes, And also this is you know, it's it's kind

598
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 3: of what I ended the December piece with. But also

599
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:55,959
Speaker 3: it's something I have sized in the second one. Anyone

600
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 3: who wants any kind of liberatory future, regardless of whatever

601
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 3: their personal beliefs are, tight clericalism has to be part

602
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 3: of it. It's not the same against being it's every

603
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:08,000
Speaker 3: individual of a certain religion. It is specifically against this

604
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 3: kind of theocratic hierarchy and its power over people's lives.

605
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,720
Speaker 3: You do not get to anything remotely liberatory without directly

606
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 3: attacking and challenging that. And for too long that struggle

607
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 3: has largely been abandoned and not shockingly fundamentalist of various varieties,

608
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 3: and let's be honest, primarily Christian fundamentalists have played a

609
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 3: major role in American fascism and in stripping rights from

610
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 3: entire groups. And it's interesting because you mentioned the Council

611
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 3: bishop beside this, but that's true, but he gets even

612
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 3: more centralized than that, the progressive pope that's getting praised for,

613
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 3: you know, condemning the Iran war, and it's always condemning

614
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 3: or statements or this or that. Yeah, the Catholic Church

615
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 3: is still kind of an absolute theocratic monarchy in some ways.

616
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 3: You know, you could just say, hey, American bishops, don't

617
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:57,480
Speaker 3: do that, like I'm overruling you. You do have to

618
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 3: provide trans health care under whatever circumstances are, regually all

619
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 3: of them. He's chosen not to. And if you look

620
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 3: at his history of transphobia before he became pope. Ye,

621
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 3: it's not particularly surprising.

622
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think sort of like the very baseline kind

623
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 2: of anti clerical stance here is like the moment your

624
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 2: religion is able to dictate the behavior of people who

625
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 2: are outside of it. Yes, you have crossed the line

626
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 2: into sort of like into this kind of clerical rule

627
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 2: in ways that I think everyone should be like deeply

628
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 2: opposed to.

629
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 3: Yes, like universally that should be regarded as unacceptable and oppressive.

630
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 2: Yeah. And this is what we're dealing with here, which

631
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 2: is that when there isn't this you know, because like

632
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 2: we talk a lot about sort of the separation of

633
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 2: church and state, which has always been kind of a

634
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:51,760
Speaker 2: joke in the US to like a broad extent, right,

635
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 2: But like you know, there are like other spheres that

636
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 2: exist in our lives, right there's you know, like they're

637
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 2: econ always here is there a health scarce sphere? They

638
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 2: were like social spheares, And you know, like the fact

639
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 2: that a church can just be like no, fuck you

640
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 2: and cut off unbelievable numbers of trans people from their

641
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 2: healthcare in a way that even the sort of like

642
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 2: right wing theocrats in office wouldn't be able to do. Yes,

643
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 2: is something that has to be has to be a

644
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 2: posed because fuck.

645
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 3: That it does. And I will add while you know,

646
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 3: obviously and we deal with some of the story of

647
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 3: you know, an example of pro trains folks at a

648
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 3: Catholic hospital in the Cafe hospital, overwhelmingly the staff were

649
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 3: pro trans. Yeah, but I do think and polls, to

650
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 3: the extent that they matter, you know, do show repeatedly

651
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 3: that opinion within Catholics themselves eventually is pretty split on this.

652
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 3: There are the substantial number who are pro trains right,

653
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 3: some pro trans healthcare. I also have to say though

654
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 3: that at this point I think there is a specific

655
00:33:55,760 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 3: obligation among them to speak up and act against this loudly.

656
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 3: And you know, I think the example of the doctor

657
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 3: who who when people I interviewed, you know, get around

658
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 3: the band to get top surgery. I think that's the minimum, honestly,

659
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,680
Speaker 3: like like, okay, if you support trains rights, start here,

660
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 3: because I think pressure from that quarter, as we've seen,

661
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 3: hits even harder on some of these institutions, you know,

662
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,840
Speaker 3: because while they claimed, you know, be this above everything

663
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 3: kind of hierarchy, we have seen worries about losing numbers

664
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 3: of Catholics being involved in the church has driven their

665
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 3: decisions before, and more pressure will drive them again potentially,

666
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:43,000
Speaker 3: you know, like, yeah, I think it will. Like what

667
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:46,839
Speaker 3: we've seen pretty clearly just in my lifetime is when

668
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 3: these institutions are under attack, when folks go on the

669
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 3: offensive against them culturally, you know, socially with direct militon

670
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 3: organizing like Act UP did, then we see some of

671
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:02,400
Speaker 3: our rights and liberation advance shockingly quickly in some cases

672
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,520
Speaker 3: compared to where they were. And when that is relaxed on,

673
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 3: when they are given space to gather power and plan

674
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:15,239
Speaker 3: and go back on the attack, then things get a

675
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 3: lot worse very quickly. Yeah, this can be fought. The

676
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:21,799
Speaker 3: first part of fighting it is to talk about it,

677
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:23,680
Speaker 3: to be vocal about, to be loud, and to talk

678
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:25,839
Speaker 3: about how it is unacceptable. I think, frankly, a lot

679
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:27,400
Speaker 3: of pressure can also be exerted on some of these

680
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:30,880
Speaker 3: gay ink works, like if they want any donations or

681
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:32,880
Speaker 3: any support, I don't think they should get a lot

682
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:34,879
Speaker 3: of nation supporting. I think there's better places to put it.

683
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:37,359
Speaker 3: But if they don't want to become pariazed and queer

684
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 3: in trans communities, that needs to be a message like

685
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:40,839
Speaker 3: you need to fight this. You need to fight this hard,

686
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,799
Speaker 3: need to fight this now, because to do otherwise, I

687
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 3: think it's just an act of unforgivable cowardice and treaties

688
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:49,319
Speaker 3: and new more time to kind of use a metaphor, Yeah,

689
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:51,759
Speaker 3: but you know, we always end our pieces of T

690
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:55,359
Speaker 3: ANDN because I think, I mean, there was a joke

691
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:57,400
Speaker 3: about it I saw recently of like it is the

692
00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 3: sacred role of trans journalism to you know, unnecessarily scared

693
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 3: trans people beyond all measure. Yeah, and I think people

694
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:07,000
Speaker 3: should take that to heart that among like trans folks,

695
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 3: some trans journalism is getting that. And I've termed these

696
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 3: pieces of panic slop when they're badly sourced exaggerate some things.

697
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:17,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, the day we're recording this, uh, the episode

698
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 2: came out. So I don't know if like if like

699
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:22,759
Speaker 2: some other unhinged thing has happened between now and then,

700
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:24,759
Speaker 2: and you're like, wow, why are you not mentioning like

701
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 2: the public max executions of trans people or some shit

702
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:29,760
Speaker 2: like I don't not just like paddicts up, Like that's

703
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:31,920
Speaker 2: why because this is this is being recorded on the

704
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:36,399
Speaker 2: day in which our episode about this dropped. But yeah, yeah, yeah,

705
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:37,720
Speaker 2: like this panic slop shit.

706
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:39,960
Speaker 3: Is just like, yeah, but it's you know, it's become

707
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 3: a real problem in some quarters. And yeah, I you know,

708
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,719
Speaker 3: I think kind of it's to be a nerd, like

709
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:50,839
Speaker 3: any reckoning with conflict, and even like the warfare level

710
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:52,920
Speaker 3: of conflict is always like you have to have acurate information,

711
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:54,880
Speaker 3: you know what actually is a threat, what is not.

712
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:59,399
Speaker 3: And I think communities under fire, which we're all part of, yeah,

713
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 3: have to have that even more so, and especially now.

714
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:05,360
Speaker 3: So I tried to exaggerate the very real threats and

715
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,280
Speaker 3: the Catholics band is definitely one of them. But also

716
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:11,040
Speaker 3: like people have fought this stuff. They fought the stuff

717
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:13,360
Speaker 3: even when the odds looked more dire. It can be

718
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:16,120
Speaker 3: fought again, Yeah, like d'reing the age shed of side exactly.

719
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:18,680
Speaker 3: They fought them in one, yeah exactly, and it can

720
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:20,880
Speaker 3: be fought against again and one. But it has to

721
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 3: be fought and has to be fought hard.

722
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 2: Yeah. But and I think I think the last thing

723
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 2: I want to mention this is something I say a

724
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:29,800
Speaker 2: lot with union organizing, but like the people in Act

725
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:34,719
Speaker 2: Up who went and fought are just you Yeah, there's

726
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 2: nothing like special about them. They were just people who

727
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:40,879
Speaker 2: were forced to act and who took up the fight

728
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:41,520
Speaker 2: and did it.

729
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:45,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think that actually kind of can can't

730
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 3: transmit something that has been seen as a bad trend

731
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:50,080
Speaker 3: within trans communities. I don't think that always is of

732
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:52,880
Speaker 3: like all transmunities like crucify their heroes too much. They

733
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 3: pillary people too much. In a lot of cases, if

734
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 3: it's a public figure the Oxer McBride, it has done

735
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:01,120
Speaker 3: some some really terrible stuff. They're acting out of frankly

736
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,719
Speaker 3: a just sense of grievance. But also I think there

737
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 3: should be a shift away from individual figures on pedestals,

738
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:10,560
Speaker 3: from looking to like a set of leaders, you know,

739
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:13,359
Speaker 3: guide everyone else. I think we're at our strongest when

740
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:16,400
Speaker 3: the organizing is coming from everywhere, the fight is coming

741
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 3: from everywhere. It's not singular figures. And honestly, I think

742
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 3: pedestals are bad for everyone involved. But you know, and

743
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:26,160
Speaker 3: doesn't exact what you're saying, Like people can start acting now,

744
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 3: they don't need to, you know. Certainly, I think it's

745
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 3: good to pressure large organizations and figures with power, partly

746
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:32,879
Speaker 3: because I think give people's sense of empowerment as well

747
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 3: as occasionally fear works and they can see and you know,

748
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 3: something improves a little bit, or something worse as avoided,

749
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:43,359
Speaker 3: but also just for like it's just us, y'all, you know, like, yeah,

750
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:45,120
Speaker 3: that's what's going to have to solve this.

751
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 2: And that is why we start. I don't know, I

752
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:51,279
Speaker 2: don't have a percentage on the episodes that we start

753
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:54,360
Speaker 2: with things falling apart, but also putting them back together

754
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 2: again because we can and we can make it better.

755
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:01,920
Speaker 3: They're building something better entirely. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, And on

756
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 3: that note, if people want to support trans News Network,

757
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 3: they can find out how to do so at Transnews

758
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 3: dot Network. We are a worker run nonprofit and kind

759
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 3: of trying to set a model for trans media that's

760
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:19,160
Speaker 3: in depth and hard hitting and unrepentently radical, but that

761
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:22,720
Speaker 3: also is you know, goes in depth and investigates stuff

762
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 3: and gives an accurate picture of what's going on, the

763
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 3: threats but also real victories.

764
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the best reporting on us is going to

765
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:34,920
Speaker 2: be done by us. Yes, so you can help make

766
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:38,400
Speaker 2: the possible. We appreciate any support we get. We do

767
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:42,160
Speaker 2: a stunning amount on a fairly shoe string budget. Yeah,

768
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:42,800
Speaker 2: it's unreal.

769
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 3: Well, I appreciate that comple of it, but yeah, It's

770
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 3: an awesome crew of people. I am incredibly fortunate to

771
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 3: work with all of them. Yeah, and actually shout out

772
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 3: to my head Myralizene, who did a great job of

773
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 3: going through this piece and also has done some incredible coverage.

774
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:01,360
Speaker 3: But yeah, everyone who worked ten and I'm really fortunate

775
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:03,920
Speaker 3: to work with. And you know, this is trying to

776
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 3: set kind of an alternative in trans journalism that is

777
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:09,239
Speaker 3: worker run and is underpent to hell.

778
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, you too can go to war with the bureaucrats

779
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 2: and the theocrats and the politicians who are trying to

780
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:17,360
Speaker 2: destroy your life.

781
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:34,719
Speaker 4: Indeed, woman life freedom. Such was the slogan of the

782
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:38,399
Speaker 4: women's movement considered key to the project of the Democratic

783
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:44,000
Speaker 4: Autuonamous Administration of North and East Syria or soon as Rajafa.

784
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:50,400
Speaker 4: Though originating in the Kurdish liberation struggle, the project quickly

785
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 4: became polyethnic Syrians, Arabs, Armenians, Czds and other groups involved

786
00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:59,839
Speaker 4: in that project, and in fact, the internationally recognized name

787
00:40:59,920 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 4: or Java has fallen out of use by the project's

788
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 4: administration in an effort to de ethnicize the project. I'm

789
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:10,360
Speaker 4: going to keep using Rejava simply because it's quicker to

790
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 4: say than DAA nes so then yes or any other combination,

791
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:21,960
Speaker 4: but just wanted to put that disclaimer of in the beginning.

792
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:24,920
Speaker 4: So in the midst of the Syrian Civil War, the

793
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 4: region gained its de facto autonomy in twenty twelve and

794
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:32,759
Speaker 4: pursued a somewhat unique political experiment for crassroots governance and

795
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:37,920
Speaker 4: social legal reforms that have attracted significant international fever and support.

796
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:43,120
Speaker 4: Do not recognize internationally as autonomous except by the Catalan

797
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:47,480
Speaker 4: Parliament for obvious reasons. For the past decade plus, the

798
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 4: people in the region have fought fiercely for independence from

799
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:55,680
Speaker 4: ISIS patriarchy, Turkish incursions, and other Syrian opposition groups, but

800
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 4: recent events led to the newly minted Assyrian government having

801
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:04,480
Speaker 4: seriously jeopardized the autonomy of the project. Welcome, take it

802
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:08,759
Speaker 4: happen here. I'm Andrew's age also Androism on YouTube and

803
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 4: I'm joined once again.

804
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:11,319
Speaker 5: It's me.

805
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:13,799
Speaker 4: It's James, Yes, and I had to talk to you

806
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:16,799
Speaker 4: about this because I know that you have contacts there,

807
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:20,040
Speaker 4: you have experience with that project, with the people involved,

808
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 4: and yeah, we're here to discuss the feat of Rajava.

809
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm always excited to talk about Rajava and I

810
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 5: think it's super important that we talk about it right now, Like, yeah,

811
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:33,520
Speaker 5: there's a lot of bad stuff happening currently, but this

812
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:37,399
Speaker 5: is really bad. Like in Rajava, we had the opportunity

813
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 5: to see people living without gods or masters, people building

814
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:47,200
Speaker 5: democracy without the state. We had the opportunity to and

815
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 5: we have the opportunity, right, So Rashava's not gone, But

816
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 5: like anarchism didn't have to be like an ideological construct

817
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:56,120
Speaker 5: that only exists in our little punk hows it's it

818
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:59,760
Speaker 5: existed in it in an area where millions of people lived.

819
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:02,879
Speaker 5: And yes, but we should talk about how we can

820
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 5: be in solidarity with him in this very difficult time

821
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 5: right right.

822
00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:08,880
Speaker 4: In fact, as we're on that topic, I think it's

823
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:12,360
Speaker 4: useful to have a brief explanation of the history and

824
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:15,879
Speaker 4: ideology behind the Java project before we talk about what's

825
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 4: happened most recently. Yeah, So in brief, the project really

826
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 4: began into Oky, where the Kurdistan Workers Party or PKK

827
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:30,239
Speaker 4: was banned and some of its supporters moved to Syria

828
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:33,920
Speaker 4: and founded the Democratic Union Party or PYD. Now this

829
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 4: party shared an ideological foundation with the PKK and its

830
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:41,400
Speaker 4: founder Abdullah o Chilan, with the ideology of democratic confederalism,

831
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:45,160
Speaker 4: which alex plain in a second Brajava came into being

832
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:49,239
Speaker 4: following the Arab Spring of twenty eleven as various factions

833
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:52,480
Speaker 4: of Syrians rose up against President Bashar al Asad, and

834
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 4: in such a climate of conflict, ISIS rose to prominence

835
00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:58,799
Speaker 4: to threaten the region as a whole. So Alasad was

836
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:01,920
Speaker 4: dealing with other opposition group in Damascus, he withdrew forces

837
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 4: from North Syria, which left the region vulnerable to ISIS

838
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:08,200
Speaker 4: and to key Kurdish groups in North Syria. Then formed

839
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 4: the Kurdish National Council to secure the area, but after

840
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:14,319
Speaker 4: an ideological split, the project of Rajava would emerge as

841
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:18,480
Speaker 4: a polyethnic polity composed of the cantons of Afrin, Jazira,

842
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:22,800
Speaker 4: and Kubani. The PID operates Java within a political coalition

843
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:27,239
Speaker 4: called the Syrian Democratic Council or SDC. The IPG or

844
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:30,880
Speaker 4: People's Defense Units and the YPG or Women's Defense Units

845
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:34,319
Speaker 4: are the paramilitaries forming the bulk of the political assemblies

846
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:38,240
Speaker 4: and military coalition, which is called the Syrian Democratic Forces

847
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:41,799
Speaker 4: or SDF. I know, it's a lot of acronyms being

848
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:42,759
Speaker 4: thrown at you at once.

849
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:47,279
Speaker 5: Yeah's alphabet too. I think until relatively recently, the bulk

850
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 5: of the sdf's forces were Arab. You have ideological groups

851
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:54,240
Speaker 5: that are allied, right than Northern Democratic Front JI Shelter

852
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:57,160
Speaker 5: War at one point, and then you have these groups

853
00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:01,360
Speaker 5: which are more tribally based. Those groups had allied to

854
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:04,719
Speaker 5: the SDF to fight the Islamic State, right, Yes, yeah,

855
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 5: they always want to push back on it being a majority,

856
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 5: but it's now. But that's that's that's a creation of

857
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:12,960
Speaker 5: the last eight weeks.

858
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:16,720
Speaker 4: Right, Okay. I remember reading that they were the WIPEPG

859
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 4: were forming a good chunk of the SDF. I suppose

860
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:22,680
Speaker 4: that was more recent information that I had seen then.

861
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:25,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it probably would have been or like

862
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:29,560
Speaker 5: you will see that published in broadsheet newspapers and have

863
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 5: done for decades. Like it just wrong. But there was

864
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:36,399
Speaker 5: this tendency in the I guess the Western press, right,

865
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:39,919
Speaker 5: and some of this is somewhat orientalist in a way,

866
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 5: Like they referred to the SDF as the Kurds because

867
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:47,000
Speaker 5: Kurds were somehow seen as closer to European people than Arabs,

868
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:50,440
Speaker 5: and like it attempted to sort of I guess, to

869
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:53,319
Speaker 5: make it more palatable to an audience.

870
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 4: Right, a kind of a racial elevation of some kind.

871
00:45:56,960 --> 00:45:59,919
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I think the friends, we can talk about

872
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:03,319
Speaker 5: friends versus whatever else. Slater, but would push back on that.

873
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 5: They would tell you the SDF was majority Arabs certainly

874
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:08,960
Speaker 5: at the time it fort the Islamic state, and of

875
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:13,400
Speaker 5: course there were Assyrians and Armenians and your CDs and

876
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:15,320
Speaker 5: international volunteers as well.

877
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:19,320
Speaker 4: For sure. For sure. So you had these Syrian Democratic

878
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 4: Councils or the STC, led primarily by the PID right.

879
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:26,440
Speaker 4: They were taking on the task of both fights and

880
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:30,520
Speaker 4: the Islamists while engaged in an ideological project to bring

881
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 4: democratic confederalism into practice in North Syria. So, democratic confederalism

882
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:40,520
Speaker 4: is a transitional political movement that tries to move beyond

883
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:45,480
Speaker 4: the nation state by refusing to seize state power. Instead

884
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 4: of organizing society through the state, they seek to organize

885
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:54,319
Speaker 4: society through local assemblies that manage their own affairs while

886
00:46:54,360 --> 00:47:00,200
Speaker 4: coordinating action through confederations. Democratic and federalism emphasizes pluralism, more

887
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:05,520
Speaker 4: nationalism and secularism, or for religious government and restorative justice,

888
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:12,400
Speaker 4: gender liberation, ecological sustainability, cooperative and communal economic forms. Democratic

889
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:17,040
Speaker 4: and feralism was seen as is seen as a pragmatic

890
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:21,560
Speaker 4: way of building collective self organization within the purview of

891
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 4: the existing dominant state model of the world while gradually

892
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:31,880
Speaker 4: undermining its authority. Now, the gender liberation component in particular

893
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:34,400
Speaker 4: has received a lot of international attention thanks to the

894
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:38,240
Speaker 4: pewide's efforts to put it into practice. They established gender

895
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 4: party quotas in all administrative, political and decision making bodies

896
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:46,000
Speaker 4: and leadership roles. They established women's councils to address women's issues.

897
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:49,759
Speaker 4: They established the Women's Protection Units or YPG, which is

898
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:53,440
Speaker 4: an all female army which is very popular. And they

899
00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:57,479
Speaker 4: established laws to ban honor killings and child marriage while

900
00:47:57,520 --> 00:48:01,239
Speaker 4: strengthening the divorce rights of women. So these efforts and

901
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:04,920
Speaker 4: others within Ora Java have gotten a worldwide admiration for

902
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 4: the project, and many international volunteers have visited Rajawa to

903
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:10,600
Speaker 4: help them fight. And if you're in a lot of

904
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:13,600
Speaker 4: online anarchist circles, you've probably heard a lot about Java

905
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:17,800
Speaker 4: and solidarity with deliberation, but I think it has created

906
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:22,080
Speaker 4: a misconception that the solidarity that anarchists feels for Java

907
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:27,719
Speaker 4: is equivalent to one to one ideological alignment yeah, right,

908
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:31,399
Speaker 4: what they're doing is not anarchism, it's kind of its

909
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:34,600
Speaker 4: own thing. It's democratic confederalism. Yeah, and this has been

910
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 4: a bandit in solidarity to the people, of course, but

911
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:39,920
Speaker 4: it just means, you know, being clear that we are

912
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:42,839
Speaker 4: fighting for a will in which many rules exist, and

913
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:47,120
Speaker 4: so are they, and we are just willing to stand

914
00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:50,759
Speaker 4: with and observe that project and you know, wish for

915
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:52,880
Speaker 4: the best and hopefully the best and see what comes

916
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:53,120
Speaker 4: of it.

917
00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:57,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, there are anarchist formations within the SDF right technosy analysis.

918
00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:01,680
Speaker 5: It means anarchists struggle. It's like a more doctrinally anarchist formation.

919
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:05,759
Speaker 5: And like the way that they would phrase their like

920
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:09,960
Speaker 5: participation is that they are there in solidarity, right, and

921
00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:12,239
Speaker 5: like you say, we want a world where many worlds

922
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:15,439
Speaker 5: can exist, and so they can offer and like if

923
00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:18,120
Speaker 5: you go to Rijava, people will ask you to offer

924
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:22,520
Speaker 5: feedback right at the Curtish Worlds Techno report of feedback.

925
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:28,600
Speaker 5: They are willing to hear an anarchist critique and engage

926
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:31,400
Speaker 5: with it. That doesn't mean that they are anarchists, but

927
00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:35,279
Speaker 5: it doesn't mean that they are like opposed to anarchists either.

928
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:39,439
Speaker 4: They're more willing to engage with anarchism than most Yeah, then.

929
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:42,800
Speaker 5: Almost anywhere else have been in the world, maybe aside

930
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:47,160
Speaker 5: from Myanmar, but yeah, they will engage with and have

931
00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:50,600
Speaker 5: these discussions, and they're on an ideological journey, right that

932
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:54,879
Speaker 5: the movement began within what they would call the nation

933
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 5: to state paradigm.

934
00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:59,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean the PKK was originally Marxist.

935
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:03,440
Speaker 5: Lends and olger Land thinking has very much been like

936
00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:07,680
Speaker 5: his journey has led the movement on a political philosophy journey,

937
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:10,400
Speaker 5: I guess, and there are different interpretations of different movements

938
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:13,319
Speaker 5: in different parts of Kurdistan that the draw on his

939
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:17,880
Speaker 5: political philosophy. But as his thinking while he was detained

940
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:23,239
Speaker 5: in Turkey moved towards this democratic confederalist outlook, influenced about

941
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:27,840
Speaker 5: reading Marie Bookchin among others, the movement also moved and

942
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:32,080
Speaker 5: I think it was very well placed when the Assatist

943
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:37,080
Speaker 5: state withdrew to try and implement this, like you've mentioned

944
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:40,360
Speaker 5: right self government, the brotherhood of people's, all these things,

945
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:44,680
Speaker 5: but it wasn't always there, and it has been willing

946
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:47,280
Speaker 5: to change and willing to move its ideology over time.

947
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:51,400
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, I mean that's the thing we want to

948
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:54,879
Speaker 4: look at people and projects and judge based on where

949
00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:59,720
Speaker 4: we are in our position and our ideological alignment. Because

950
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:03,560
Speaker 4: one of us necessarily started off as anarchists, right and

951
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:06,680
Speaker 4: while we may wish that as an anarchist, I would

952
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:09,319
Speaker 4: wish that, you know, these projects would move closer to

953
00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:13,560
Speaker 4: anarchy and would pursue and explore an experiment with that

954
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:18,719
Speaker 4: ideal and that idea. Everybody's on their own journey, and

955
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 4: you know, at this stage in capitalist global dominance and

956
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:28,240
Speaker 4: status global dominance, we have to let whatever experiments exist

957
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:31,359
Speaker 4: or explore the different angles. You know, there's not one

958
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:35,480
Speaker 4: right way quite yet or they may never be, you know.

959
00:51:35,600 --> 00:51:39,080
Speaker 4: As one on the topic of disclaimers, I suppose I

960
00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:41,480
Speaker 4: think it is important to address that, you know, the

961
00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:44,960
Speaker 4: SDF is not all sunshine and ruses. You know, there

962
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:48,960
Speaker 4: have been allegations of war crimes, including the recruitment of children,

963
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:53,960
Speaker 4: and the allegations are forced to target a displacement. Now,

964
00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:57,879
Speaker 4: not all of these allegations have been conclusively verified, and

965
00:51:57,920 --> 00:51:59,800
Speaker 4: there are a lot of actors have been involved in

966
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:02,560
Speaker 4: over the years that I push in narratives and common

967
00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:04,799
Speaker 4: to narratives that have to be scrutinized on a case

968
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 4: by case basis. Some of the war crime allegations, for example,

969
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:12,320
Speaker 4: have been made by Turkey, which is pretty suspect considering

970
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:16,880
Speaker 4: their track record of both hostility towards Rajava and Ni

971
00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:21,319
Speaker 4: Kurdish autonomy, and also their practice of war crimes on

972
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:24,800
Speaker 4: a cell a regular basis. Yeah themselves, you know. Yeah,

973
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:27,400
Speaker 4: but still hypocrisy has said, I think it is important

974
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:29,640
Speaker 4: to not turn a blind eye to these kinds of

975
00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:32,400
Speaker 4: problems and allegations when they are made.

976
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:35,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, I totally agreed. Like, if people are being compelled

977
00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:38,640
Speaker 5: to do things through violence, that is what the state is, right,

978
00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:41,799
Speaker 5: and that is what we want to stop. And so

979
00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:43,919
Speaker 5: if that is happening, then we should condemn it, right,

980
00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:47,320
Speaker 5: be that where they're being compelled to fight or compelled

981
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:50,680
Speaker 5: to leave their homes, Like that is a thing that

982
00:52:50,719 --> 00:52:53,319
Speaker 5: we are opposed to inherently, right, and it doesn't matter

983
00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:56,040
Speaker 5: who's doing it is the action itself is something that

984
00:52:56,080 --> 00:53:00,680
Speaker 5: we are opposed to. And yeah, we should again, like

985
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:04,080
Speaker 5: we should look at this like not through like roase

986
00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:05,360
Speaker 5: To I know talk a lot about this, but I

987
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:08,480
Speaker 5: translated a piece from French a couple of years ago

988
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:11,080
Speaker 5: from an anarchist who had fought in Spain, and it's

989
00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:14,160
Speaker 5: called refuting the legend, and the main thesis of the

990
00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:16,479
Speaker 5: piece was that we should engage with the Spanish Civil

991
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:19,280
Speaker 5: War as it was not as we wished it to be. Yeah,

992
00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:21,200
Speaker 5: and that way we could learn from it and and

993
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:25,040
Speaker 5: get better as opposed to just creating a hagiography and

994
00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:30,120
Speaker 5: like a you know, like saints' lives, and same applies.

995
00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:32,640
Speaker 4: Here, I think, yeah, because the anarchists ferments have been

996
00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:35,640
Speaker 4: you know, few and far between. Unfortunately the major experiments,

997
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:39,080
Speaker 4: that is, the massive ones, the ones that make historical headlines.

998
00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:42,200
Speaker 4: And I think there is a temptation to, as you say,

999
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:47,560
Speaker 4: in constructor a hagiography, to glorify and venerate these these attempts.

1000
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:49,600
Speaker 4: I think it's very important for us we treat them.

1001
00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:53,840
Speaker 4: It's scrutiny, you know, to hould them up to certain standards,

1002
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:57,360
Speaker 4: and to evaluate their missteps, and to highlight their missteps

1003
00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:00,200
Speaker 4: even more than we highlight thiss successors, because I see

1004
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:02,279
Speaker 4: when we were going to succeed in the future. So

1005
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:05,920
Speaker 4: if we were willing to address and engage with those mystiques.

1006
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:09,279
Speaker 5: Yeah, absolutely, I think on that point, the way that

1007
00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:11,480
Speaker 5: I see what's happening in Rojabre is not in a

1008
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:17,560
Speaker 5: monolithic way. Their are tendencies and organizations within the revolution, right.

1009
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:22,480
Speaker 5: There are some who are probably operating in a paradigm

1010
00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:26,120
Speaker 5: that is not that far from the like ethno nationalist

1011
00:54:26,239 --> 00:54:30,640
Speaker 5: or kind of nationalist Marxist paradigm. There are some that

1012
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:35,920
Speaker 5: are operating closer to an anarchist paradigm. There are some

1013
00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:39,200
Speaker 5: who are somewhere in between those two things, right, And

1014
00:54:39,239 --> 00:54:41,879
Speaker 5: there are some who would just want the Islamic state

1015
00:54:42,080 --> 00:54:45,719
Speaker 5: or the New Syrian state or the Assadist state to

1016
00:54:45,719 --> 00:54:47,400
Speaker 5: go away and leave them alone. And that's why they

1017
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:52,120
Speaker 5: picked up arms, and that's what they're fighting for. And like, yeah, again, right,

1018
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:54,919
Speaker 5: we shouldn't. We should be suspicious of a movement which

1019
00:54:54,960 --> 00:54:58,920
Speaker 5: is entirely homogeneous. We should be concerned. But I have

1020
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:02,360
Speaker 5: concerns about the way some dissenting voices have been treated

1021
00:55:02,360 --> 00:55:05,080
Speaker 5: in the A n E s in the past year.

1022
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:08,920
Speaker 5: We should raise those concerns. But like it would be

1023
00:55:09,239 --> 00:55:11,360
Speaker 5: inaccurate inter view this movement as a monolith.

1024
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:14,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, And that's the thing. It's simple, and tour

1025
00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:17,880
Speaker 4: is concerned. It's it's sad that this phrase has been

1026
00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:21,680
Speaker 4: vastardized because it's a useful phrase, right, that is, you know,

1027
00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 4: critical support, yeah, or critical solidarity. It's been taken by

1028
00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:34,799
Speaker 4: certain Internet actors to you know, to propagate apology yeah,

1029
00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:43,160
Speaker 4: for atrocities and the reasure of state violence. But it

1030
00:55:43,239 --> 00:55:47,160
Speaker 4: is a useful way of I think freemen, the way

1031
00:55:47,160 --> 00:55:50,840
Speaker 4: we should engage these projects. That solidarity doesn't imply that

1032
00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:55,080
Speaker 4: you keep your aull shut, that you don't seek to learn,

1033
00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:58,600
Speaker 4: that you don't respectfully criticize. That is, I think the

1034
00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:01,880
Speaker 4: best way to engage these projecs not to you know,

1035
00:56:01,960 --> 00:56:04,800
Speaker 4: close your eyes and just follow.

1036
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:06,239
Speaker 5: Yeah. Absolutely.

1037
00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:19,040
Speaker 4: Getting back to I suppose what's been happening more recently,

1038
00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:22,759
Speaker 4: things have not been easy for the movement really since

1039
00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:26,040
Speaker 4: the beginning in twenty twelve. It has for a long

1040
00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:29,280
Speaker 4: time been caught in a web of conflicting and conversion interests.

1041
00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:32,200
Speaker 4: In addition to fight Genisis and not the Giadist groups,

1042
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:35,120
Speaker 4: Rajava managed to receive back in from the US out

1043
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:38,840
Speaker 4: of a coincidence of interests and tactical necessity, as I

1044
00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:41,960
Speaker 4: would put it, which is confused in some circles of

1045
00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:45,839
Speaker 4: the idea that Rajava is a US designed puppet through

1046
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:50,080
Speaker 4: and through right. So, after the SDF liberated Raka, they

1047
00:56:50,120 --> 00:56:53,080
Speaker 4: began taking more heat from two Key, which saw the

1048
00:56:53,239 --> 00:56:57,320
Speaker 4: YPG as inseparable from the PKK and thus a threat. Remember,

1049
00:56:57,360 --> 00:57:01,439
Speaker 4: the YPG is the defensive army, the protective services rather

1050
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:07,120
Speaker 4: and the PKK is the Kurdish party in Turkey. So

1051
00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:10,520
Speaker 4: they launched several military operations to prevent the Kurdish regions

1052
00:57:10,520 --> 00:57:14,719
Speaker 4: from linking up and having territorial continuity within Syria. At

1053
00:57:14,719 --> 00:57:19,080
Speaker 4: the same time, Rojava faced economic blockades, restricted movement, and

1054
00:57:19,120 --> 00:57:22,600
Speaker 4: strained relations with their fellow Kurdish political groups in Iraq

1055
00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:25,560
Speaker 4: that were aligned with Turkey and aligned with the PYD's

1056
00:57:25,640 --> 00:57:30,360
Speaker 4: political rivals, which had lost influence since the establishment of Rajava.

1057
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:33,000
Speaker 4: Then you also had the occasional alignments with Russia as

1058
00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:36,800
Speaker 4: a strategic leverage against Turkey, and similar coincidences of interest

1059
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:40,240
Speaker 4: with the governments of Iraq and Iran, and even cooperation

1060
00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:44,160
Speaker 4: between Rojava and Asad government. It's interesting to me that

1061
00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:47,160
Speaker 4: the US alignment is what receives the most attention, when

1062
00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:50,200
Speaker 4: it seems to me the Rajava had quite a roster of

1063
00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:55,360
Speaker 4: affiliations of convenience, not to say that those partnerships or

1064
00:57:55,400 --> 00:58:00,240
Speaker 4: affiliations necessarily benefit them in the long run, but it's

1065
00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:04,480
Speaker 4: important to police those affiliations in context. Rajava has been

1066
00:58:04,520 --> 00:58:08,640
Speaker 4: seen and treated as a chess piece essentially by both

1067
00:58:08,880 --> 00:58:12,800
Speaker 4: global and regional powers as they attempt to put out

1068
00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:16,360
Speaker 4: a voice of their own and echoed their own autonomy. So,

1069
00:58:16,920 --> 00:58:21,520
Speaker 4: just before the twenty nineteen Turkish invasion, the US abandoned

1070
00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:27,480
Speaker 4: Rajava entirely, withdrawing its troops and suddenly leading into the

1071
00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:32,320
Speaker 4: tragic fall of several settlements to Turkey and Diggish aligned groups.

1072
00:58:32,840 --> 00:58:35,600
Speaker 4: Whether that moved with a draw or also raised the

1073
00:58:35,640 --> 00:58:39,760
Speaker 4: international profile of the Rajava struggle, as people on both

1074
00:58:39,760 --> 00:58:44,480
Speaker 4: sides of book spectrum were pointing out this American decision

1075
00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:49,360
Speaker 4: to abandon its allies in the Middle East. So, before

1076
00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:51,200
Speaker 4: we get to the fall of US SAD, is there

1077
00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:53,600
Speaker 4: anything critical did you say I missed?

1078
00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:56,280
Speaker 5: I do a pretty good storary. I've written, literally written

1079
00:58:56,280 --> 00:58:58,520
Speaker 5: a book about this, so I like, there's always things

1080
00:58:58,520 --> 00:59:01,680
Speaker 5: I want to say. I was there during a time

1081
00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:04,760
Speaker 5: when Turkey was bombing. In addition to going to report

1082
00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:07,480
Speaker 5: on them, I just saw places as I was going

1083
00:59:07,520 --> 00:59:09,400
Speaker 5: about my day to day life that had been bombed

1084
00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:13,120
Speaker 5: the night before. Right, I think there's this misapprehension that

1085
00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:17,120
Speaker 5: America is by America. I'm amuseneting correctly, the United States

1086
00:59:17,280 --> 00:59:22,960
Speaker 5: is allied with the PYD. That's not the case. The

1087
00:59:23,120 --> 00:59:27,440
Speaker 5: SDF was the US partner for specifically in what's called

1088
00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:31,560
Speaker 5: Operation Inherent Resolve, which is the operation against the Islamic State. Right,

1089
00:59:32,200 --> 00:59:34,080
Speaker 5: while I was there, the US shot down a Turkish

1090
00:59:34,160 --> 00:59:37,680
Speaker 5: drone because it flew too close to their bases. They

1091
00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:40,600
Speaker 5: also didn't shoot down the dozens of other Turkish drones

1092
00:59:40,640 --> 00:59:44,160
Speaker 5: that killed little children while I was there, right, And

1093
00:59:44,200 --> 00:59:47,880
Speaker 5: I don't think anyone would reasonably expect them to because

1094
00:59:48,680 --> 00:59:53,160
Speaker 5: US was not there in solidarity with the revolution. It

1095
00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:56,840
Speaker 5: was there fighting alongside them in this one specific thing.

1096
00:59:57,480 --> 01:00:00,280
Speaker 5: And while that doesn't take away the fact that it

1097
01:00:00,320 --> 01:00:06,720
Speaker 5: is disgraceful to abandon these people who gave ten thousand

1098
01:00:06,760 --> 01:00:11,000
Speaker 5: plus of their children alongside the United States, Right, that

1099
01:00:11,120 --> 01:00:15,000
Speaker 5: is shameful. It is also what we should expect from

1100
01:00:15,040 --> 01:00:19,160
Speaker 5: the United States people that use the word haval, which

1101
01:00:19,200 --> 01:00:22,520
Speaker 5: means friend right as opposed to like the way a

1102
01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:26,920
Speaker 5: Marxist movement might use comrade. The friends there understood the

1103
01:00:27,200 --> 01:00:29,760
Speaker 5: terms of their agreement with the US doesn't mean that

1104
01:00:29,800 --> 01:00:31,840
Speaker 5: they were not disappointed doesn't mean that they would not

1105
01:00:31,920 --> 01:00:34,880
Speaker 5: ask for assistance when their children are dying. Of course

1106
01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:37,960
Speaker 5: it would. But those are terms on which the US

1107
01:00:38,120 --> 01:00:42,040
Speaker 5: was allied with them, and certainly the US did not

1108
01:00:42,760 --> 01:00:46,960
Speaker 5: ideologically influence them. Perhaps the opposite is the case. There

1109
01:00:46,960 --> 01:00:50,040
Speaker 5: are certainly some people in the US military who went

1110
01:00:50,040 --> 01:00:52,600
Speaker 5: over there and came back seeing the world differently. Turkey

1111
01:00:52,640 --> 01:00:56,400
Speaker 5: actually called the US government because some of the US

1112
01:00:56,400 --> 01:01:00,120
Speaker 5: soldiers were wearing Abdulahi learned patches at one point and

1113
01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:02,960
Speaker 5: raised complaints about it. But yeah, I think it's important

1114
01:01:03,000 --> 01:01:06,080
Speaker 5: to understand the terms of the arrangement between them. Otherwise,

1115
01:01:06,120 --> 01:01:09,840
Speaker 5: I think that's a pretty good praisie of the way

1116
01:01:09,920 --> 01:01:12,200
Speaker 5: things were. Do you have anything about Shengal?

1117
01:01:12,440 --> 01:01:13,000
Speaker 4: No, I don't.

1118
01:01:13,160 --> 01:01:15,400
Speaker 5: I'll do my potted. People can read my book if

1119
01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:17,360
Speaker 5: they'd like to hear more about its operation. I've sent

1120
01:01:17,400 --> 01:01:20,200
Speaker 5: one to you Andrew. Hopefully it's making its way across

1121
01:01:20,240 --> 01:01:20,680
Speaker 5: the ocean.

1122
01:01:21,080 --> 01:01:21,600
Speaker 4: Awesome.

1123
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:26,640
Speaker 5: So Shengal the sacred mountain of the the Azds, or

1124
01:01:26,680 --> 01:01:29,280
Speaker 5: a group of people have their religious group whose religion

1125
01:01:29,360 --> 01:01:33,240
Speaker 5: is probably closest to Zoroastrianism. They have like a peacock angel.

1126
01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:37,480
Speaker 5: The Islamic state targeted the Azds because it considered them

1127
01:01:37,520 --> 01:01:41,720
Speaker 5: to be apostates, and it subjected them to genocidal violence. Right,

1128
01:01:41,760 --> 01:01:46,240
Speaker 5: this is the Uzd genocide. The states of the world

1129
01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:50,200
Speaker 5: largely abandoned the Azdi people. They tried to defend their communities,

1130
01:01:50,920 --> 01:01:53,080
Speaker 5: but they were overwhelmed by the Islamic state, and they

1131
01:01:53,080 --> 01:01:55,920
Speaker 5: gradually fell back to Shengol, which is their mountain, and

1132
01:01:55,960 --> 01:01:57,680
Speaker 5: they went to the top of their mountain to make

1133
01:01:57,720 --> 01:02:00,320
Speaker 5: their last stand. I guess right, that was their place

1134
01:02:00,360 --> 01:02:05,000
Speaker 5: where they had always gone back to. And there were

1135
01:02:05,320 --> 01:02:07,520
Speaker 5: some US special forces on the mountain, and from what

1136
01:02:07,560 --> 01:02:11,120
Speaker 5: I understand, also some British special forces, but it was

1137
01:02:11,240 --> 01:02:16,600
Speaker 5: the friends from Kurdistan who decided to go. It should

1138
01:02:16,640 --> 01:02:18,480
Speaker 5: be noted that they're like fighting the Islamics stayed at

1139
01:02:18,480 --> 01:02:21,520
Speaker 5: home at this time. Right their own villages, their own

1140
01:02:21,560 --> 01:02:25,320
Speaker 5: towns are being subjected to the same violence. They went

1141
01:02:25,360 --> 01:02:29,440
Speaker 5: onto the mountain and they built humanitarian corridor to extract

1142
01:02:29,440 --> 01:02:33,240
Speaker 5: the Azli people right with their bodies, with their blood,

1143
01:02:33,640 --> 01:02:38,720
Speaker 5: And if they had done nothing else since twenty twelve,

1144
01:02:38,800 --> 01:02:40,720
Speaker 5: that would be reason enough for us to stand in

1145
01:02:40,760 --> 01:02:43,400
Speaker 5: solidarity with them. Right like in that moment when the

1146
01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:47,360
Speaker 5: world letting the asdis die. Right when Obama and the

1147
01:02:47,440 --> 01:02:49,680
Speaker 5: United Kingdom and everything else was letting these people be

1148
01:02:49,720 --> 01:02:54,280
Speaker 5: subjected to genocide, it wasn't a military superpower who went

1149
01:02:54,440 --> 01:02:58,240
Speaker 5: to their assistance. Who wasn't the French or the British

1150
01:02:58,400 --> 01:03:01,800
Speaker 5: or anyone else who was willing to risk Again, there

1151
01:03:01,800 --> 01:03:05,360
Speaker 5: were small numbers of special forces, but it was regular

1152
01:03:05,360 --> 01:03:07,960
Speaker 5: folks from Kurtis down with Kalashnikov's who went to save them.

1153
01:03:08,000 --> 01:03:12,360
Speaker 5: And I think at this time, when like Western analysts

1154
01:03:12,400 --> 01:03:14,560
Speaker 5: who perhaps either don't have a proper grasp of what's

1155
01:03:14,560 --> 01:03:16,440
Speaker 5: happening in Syria or do and are just willing to

1156
01:03:16,520 --> 01:03:20,000
Speaker 5: lie about it, are condemning the a and Ees as

1157
01:03:20,000 --> 01:03:23,480
Speaker 5: some kind of kurdishcheth no nationalist project, we could point

1158
01:03:23,520 --> 01:03:27,200
Speaker 5: to this and we shouldn't forget the sacrifice that those

1159
01:03:27,240 --> 01:03:29,040
Speaker 5: people made at that time.

1160
01:03:29,560 --> 01:03:33,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's an important event that I didn't come across

1161
01:03:33,240 --> 01:03:35,360
Speaker 4: my reusage, but thank you for sharing.

1162
01:03:35,760 --> 01:03:36,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, of course.

1163
01:03:37,280 --> 01:03:43,000
Speaker 4: So I suppose we are now approaching the critical moment

1164
01:03:43,240 --> 01:03:48,200
Speaker 4: in Rajawa's recent history. Asad's government collapsed at the end

1165
01:03:48,280 --> 01:03:52,360
Speaker 4: of twenty twenty four and the Hayat tari al Sham

1166
01:03:52,600 --> 01:03:56,720
Speaker 4: or HGS and Islamist militia with roots in Al Qaeda

1167
01:03:57,120 --> 01:04:00,600
Speaker 4: stepped into the vacuum and rapidly took control of large

1168
01:04:00,680 --> 01:04:04,680
Speaker 4: parts of the country. Then HGS leader Ahmed al Shara

1169
01:04:04,960 --> 01:04:09,000
Speaker 4: was recast on the international stage as Syria's new president,

1170
01:04:09,640 --> 01:04:13,960
Speaker 4: welcomed by regional and western powers, received in diplomatic capitals,

1171
01:04:14,200 --> 01:04:18,760
Speaker 4: and rewarded with the lifting of many sanctions. Turkey emerged

1172
01:04:18,760 --> 01:04:22,000
Speaker 4: as his strongest backer, as they were pretty coold with

1173
01:04:22,040 --> 01:04:25,200
Speaker 4: a SAD and they aggressively lobbied on behalf of the

1174
01:04:25,360 --> 01:04:29,960
Speaker 4: HGS government, reframing it as a stabilizing partner, and not

1175
01:04:30,040 --> 01:04:32,200
Speaker 4: long after the fall of a SAD, In fact, after

1176
01:04:32,280 --> 01:04:37,080
Speaker 4: Loachlan himself called for the PKK to this arm the SDF,

1177
01:04:37,120 --> 01:04:40,440
Speaker 4: which is only loosely affiliated with the PKK, though said well,

1178
01:04:40,440 --> 01:04:44,760
Speaker 4: you know not us, we will continue to find So

1179
01:04:44,840 --> 01:04:47,960
Speaker 4: Western governments, particularly the United States and its allies, appeared

1180
01:04:47,960 --> 01:04:52,280
Speaker 4: willing to accept this transformation of THEHGS. The calculators that

1181
01:04:52,320 --> 01:04:56,200
Speaker 4: are fragmented and internally weak authority could be more easily

1182
01:04:56,280 --> 01:05:00,360
Speaker 4: stared to serve their long term geopolitical interests. So the

1183
01:05:00,440 --> 01:05:03,640
Speaker 4: ESHTS certain government had a little press tour, but within

1184
01:05:03,760 --> 01:05:08,200
Speaker 4: Syria they moved pretty predictably, engaging in violent for pressure

1185
01:05:08,240 --> 01:05:12,360
Speaker 4: and displacement and massacre of the Alawite, the Druze, and

1186
01:05:12,400 --> 01:05:16,280
Speaker 4: the Kurdish communities in Syria, and for the Kurdish initiated

1187
01:05:16,280 --> 01:05:19,760
Speaker 4: the project of Rajava. The rise of the HDS government

1188
01:05:19,760 --> 01:05:23,560
Speaker 4: would mark the beginning of an end, greater isolation and

1189
01:05:23,600 --> 01:05:26,840
Speaker 4: a renewed pressure from within and outside of Syria's borders.

1190
01:05:27,360 --> 01:05:30,600
Speaker 4: After consolidating power, the HTS government pushed into the Kurdish

1191
01:05:30,600 --> 01:05:34,520
Speaker 4: regions and encircled Kobani, the historic border city that once

1192
01:05:34,640 --> 01:05:39,960
Speaker 4: symbolized resistance to ISIS. So for days, coordinated attacks targeted

1193
01:05:40,080 --> 01:05:43,840
Speaker 4: Rajava itself, threatening not only the survival of Kurdish ol government,

1194
01:05:44,320 --> 01:05:47,600
Speaker 4: but the lives of hundreds of thousands of civilians, as food,

1195
01:05:47,840 --> 01:05:51,120
Speaker 4: water and electricity would deliberately cut off and the city

1196
01:05:51,160 --> 01:05:55,160
Speaker 4: placed under siege. The violence had been especially devastating in Aleppo.

1197
01:05:55,720 --> 01:05:59,240
Speaker 4: From early January, the Kurdish districts of Shikh Maksud and

1198
01:05:59,320 --> 01:06:03,280
Speaker 4: Ashrafiya became the focus of sustained assaults by Turkish backed

1199
01:06:03,280 --> 01:06:06,760
Speaker 4: militias and units aligned with the Syrian Transitional government.

1200
01:06:07,200 --> 01:06:10,200
Speaker 5: They would tell you that hik Maksud was a diverse district,

1201
01:06:10,480 --> 01:06:13,240
Speaker 5: and I'd probably used to describe it as Kurdish as well.

1202
01:06:13,280 --> 01:06:15,240
Speaker 5: By there they will point out that is CD people

1203
01:06:15,760 --> 01:06:18,440
Speaker 5: and a lot of the indigenous Christian peoples of the

1204
01:06:18,480 --> 01:06:20,520
Speaker 5: region who lived in a Leppo tended to live in

1205
01:06:20,520 --> 01:06:21,400
Speaker 5: shick mac food as.

1206
01:06:21,320 --> 01:06:24,960
Speaker 4: Well, right, right, Okay, thanks for that contexts Yeah, of course.

1207
01:06:25,480 --> 01:06:30,240
Speaker 4: So civilian infrastructure was systematically hit at homes, schools, mosques

1208
01:06:30,280 --> 01:06:34,720
Speaker 4: and public buildings being shelled, while abductions, torture and executions

1209
01:06:35,120 --> 01:06:40,840
Speaker 4: reported nearmedical facilities. The bombing of Zalid Fekir Hospital devastated

1210
01:06:41,120 --> 01:06:44,360
Speaker 4: the local health care system and with mountain casualties and

1211
01:06:44,640 --> 01:06:48,400
Speaker 4: entire neighborhoods emptied, local councils in the SDF agreed to

1212
01:06:48,400 --> 01:06:51,600
Speaker 4: a cease fire and withdrawal on the eleventh of January

1213
01:06:51,680 --> 01:06:56,040
Speaker 4: twenty twenty six to allow evacuations. More than three hundred

1214
01:06:56,200 --> 01:07:00,120
Speaker 4: thousand people fled, many seeking refuge in areas still control

1215
01:07:00,200 --> 01:07:05,440
Speaker 4: by the Autonomous administration, but fighting expanded eastward. Jihada's forces

1216
01:07:05,480 --> 01:07:10,440
Speaker 4: began targets in Raka, the Ressoul Hassaka and critical infrastructure

1217
01:07:10,520 --> 01:07:14,000
Speaker 4: like the Tissrian down prisons, who within thousands of Jihada's

1218
01:07:14,040 --> 01:07:17,240
Speaker 4: detinees were located in these areas, and amid the chaos,

1219
01:07:17,320 --> 01:07:21,920
Speaker 4: Islamist fighters escaped, ISIS symbols reappeared and memorials to Kurdish

1220
01:07:21,960 --> 01:07:23,520
Speaker 4: fighters were destroyed.

1221
01:07:23,960 --> 01:07:27,080
Speaker 5: There's one example which I think is particularly revelatory. It

1222
01:07:27,160 --> 01:07:30,760
Speaker 5: was consistently cast once again by like think tankers who

1223
01:07:31,160 --> 01:07:34,840
Speaker 5: either know that they're talking speaking things that are n't true.

1224
01:07:35,120 --> 01:07:37,720
Speaker 5: I was going to say something else there, or they

1225
01:07:37,880 --> 01:07:40,440
Speaker 5: just don't know and they're being paid to pretend they know.

1226
01:07:40,920 --> 01:07:43,960
Speaker 5: But though the one in Tabka that was destroyed, it

1227
01:07:44,040 --> 01:07:46,080
Speaker 5: was a statue of a YPG fighter, which she was

1228
01:07:46,120 --> 01:07:49,920
Speaker 5: in arab It was portrayed as like local people celebrating

1229
01:07:50,560 --> 01:07:53,400
Speaker 5: their liberation from the SDF, But it was a whole

1230
01:07:53,440 --> 01:07:56,040
Speaker 5: group of men destroying a statue of a woman, a

1231
01:07:56,080 --> 01:07:58,600
Speaker 5: woman from that community who had fought to liberate that

1232
01:07:58,640 --> 01:08:02,680
Speaker 5: community from the Islamic state, right, And I think that like,

1233
01:08:03,280 --> 01:08:06,080
Speaker 5: when that context is deliberately excluded, that tells us an

1234
01:08:06,080 --> 01:08:06,760
Speaker 5: awful lot.

1235
01:08:07,200 --> 01:08:09,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's that's an extremely critical point, I think.

1236
01:08:09,920 --> 01:08:12,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

1237
01:08:23,720 --> 01:08:23,800
Speaker 6: So.

1238
01:08:24,240 --> 01:08:27,960
Speaker 4: As the Syrian forces pushed further east, some non Kurdish

1239
01:08:28,000 --> 01:08:31,040
Speaker 4: villages in the region affected from Rajava to the new

1240
01:08:31,120 --> 01:08:32,160
Speaker 4: Syria and government.

1241
01:08:32,640 --> 01:08:35,519
Speaker 5: Yeah, mostly in Lake Daris or, right, which is an

1242
01:08:35,560 --> 01:08:39,800
Speaker 5: area where you have this longstanding that they're referred to

1243
01:08:39,840 --> 01:08:43,080
Speaker 5: as tribal communities like that. I guess that's a fine phrase,

1244
01:08:43,080 --> 01:08:45,360
Speaker 5: but sometimes the word tribal, I think, is used in

1245
01:08:45,479 --> 01:08:47,439
Speaker 5: a derogatory way in the West, So I want to

1246
01:08:47,479 --> 01:08:49,160
Speaker 5: be clear, that's not what I tend to mean here,

1247
01:08:49,280 --> 01:08:51,760
Speaker 5: just that they have a different form of political organizing,

1248
01:08:52,280 --> 01:08:56,840
Speaker 5: right of course, And like there had not been among

1249
01:08:56,920 --> 01:09:01,040
Speaker 5: those communities buy in I guess today an e S project.

1250
01:09:01,080 --> 01:09:03,360
Speaker 5: There was to the SDF as a military force, but

1251
01:09:03,439 --> 01:09:07,120
Speaker 5: not not so much to the project. And it was

1252
01:09:07,240 --> 01:09:10,240
Speaker 5: those communities that switched their allegiances.

1253
01:09:10,320 --> 01:09:10,439
Speaker 6: Right.

1254
01:09:10,479 --> 01:09:13,080
Speaker 5: This happened even in Aleppo, and we can look at

1255
01:09:13,160 --> 01:09:16,160
Speaker 5: various economic and political and social reasons for that, and

1256
01:09:16,320 --> 01:09:17,960
Speaker 5: maybe at some point we should, but I don't think,

1257
01:09:18,000 --> 01:09:21,839
Speaker 5: like now it's the time that you know, we're concerned

1258
01:09:21,840 --> 01:09:25,160
Speaker 5: with ongoing struggle there. But yeah, especially in de res Or.

1259
01:09:25,920 --> 01:09:29,120
Speaker 5: What really saw the SDF frontline crumble was that people

1260
01:09:29,160 --> 01:09:32,240
Speaker 5: who were in the SDF suddenly became allied with the

1261
01:09:32,360 --> 01:09:37,240
Speaker 5: STG Syrian Transitional Government Syrian government, right.

1262
01:09:37,520 --> 01:09:44,400
Speaker 4: Right, And so these defections and with this onslaught of violence,

1263
01:09:45,560 --> 01:09:48,680
Speaker 4: I delivered an ultimate one to the goods and to

1264
01:09:48,720 --> 01:09:55,479
Speaker 4: the other groups involved in the Automouns administration North Eastyria

1265
01:09:55,560 --> 01:09:59,559
Speaker 4: was the dissolve the SDF and submit to incorporation under

1266
01:09:59,600 --> 01:10:04,639
Speaker 4: his command office and Irat. So in response, the SDF

1267
01:10:04,640 --> 01:10:08,679
Speaker 4: commander mass loom Abdi appealed outwill calling on the support

1268
01:10:08,720 --> 01:10:12,080
Speaker 4: of anyone who are be willing to assist. And this

1269
01:10:12,160 --> 01:10:17,800
Speaker 4: is something that particularly made headlines, anyone included Israel, which

1270
01:10:17,800 --> 01:10:21,960
Speaker 4: had previously intervened in Syria for the claim justification of

1271
01:10:22,000 --> 01:10:25,759
Speaker 4: aiding the juris community. I think the way that question

1272
01:10:25,920 --> 01:10:28,960
Speaker 4: was posed to the SDF commander was definitely leading, like

1273
01:10:28,960 --> 01:10:32,519
Speaker 4: they were fishing for headline for sure, from what I

1274
01:10:32,560 --> 01:10:35,640
Speaker 4: saw of that exchange. But in the context of the

1275
01:10:35,640 --> 01:10:40,400
Speaker 4: Pastimeian genocide and the worlds awareness of the genocide, I

1276
01:10:40,560 --> 01:10:45,160
Speaker 4: think that even with that desperation for survival in mind,

1277
01:10:45,560 --> 01:10:49,000
Speaker 4: that statement was I think a misstep.

1278
01:10:49,840 --> 01:10:53,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, we constantly see like this allegation that the SDF

1279
01:10:54,000 --> 01:10:56,280
Speaker 5: specifically is like some kind of Zionists for sort of

1280
01:10:56,280 --> 01:10:59,720
Speaker 5: funded by Israel. That's been around for decades, right. I

1281
01:10:59,800 --> 01:11:02,760
Speaker 5: will say a couple of things. First of all in

1282
01:11:02,800 --> 01:11:07,000
Speaker 5: the early Kurdish Freedom movement. You know, Kurds died for

1283
01:11:07,120 --> 01:11:10,160
Speaker 5: Palestine right with the Democratic Friends for the Liberation of

1284
01:11:10,160 --> 01:11:15,559
Speaker 5: Palestine and Bofort Castle. If the Israelis were genuinely allies

1285
01:11:15,600 --> 01:11:19,040
Speaker 5: of the Kurds, no one would dare touch them. We

1286
01:11:19,160 --> 01:11:23,679
Speaker 5: have seen what Israel is prepared to do to Muslim countries.

1287
01:11:23,960 --> 01:11:27,040
Speaker 5: They don't need much excuse. They would do the same

1288
01:11:27,600 --> 01:11:31,720
Speaker 5: in Syria. Furthermore, Israel has continued to invade Syria and

1289
01:11:32,120 --> 01:11:36,360
Speaker 5: has held Syrian territory for decades and has continued to

1290
01:11:36,400 --> 01:11:39,080
Speaker 5: take more of it under al Shara, and al Shara

1291
01:11:39,400 --> 01:11:41,840
Speaker 5: has not done anything about it. So like I find

1292
01:11:41,840 --> 01:11:44,240
Speaker 5: the idea that he's like eliminating Zion is going to

1293
01:11:44,280 --> 01:11:47,880
Speaker 5: be very frustrating when the ideaf is literally inside his

1294
01:11:47,920 --> 01:11:52,439
Speaker 5: country invading it. And the Kurdish Freedom movement as a

1295
01:11:52,479 --> 01:11:55,000
Speaker 5: whole has been pretty forthright about the genocide. So on

1296
01:11:55,000 --> 01:12:00,080
Speaker 5: October seventh, twenty twenty three, I was in Kurdistan and

1297
01:12:00,560 --> 01:12:05,519
Speaker 5: we watched what happened first in Israel and then in Palestine, right,

1298
01:12:05,600 --> 01:12:09,080
Speaker 5: and they were pretty forthright about that no one should

1299
01:12:09,120 --> 01:12:13,799
Speaker 5: be killing civilians, and as the genocide in Gaza began,

1300
01:12:14,280 --> 01:12:17,200
Speaker 5: they were forthright about calling it a genocide, and I

1301
01:12:17,240 --> 01:12:22,479
Speaker 5: think they didn't have to. No one was particularly asking

1302
01:12:22,520 --> 01:12:26,600
Speaker 5: them in twenty twenty three, right, and they did, and

1303
01:12:26,640 --> 01:12:30,639
Speaker 5: they made statements about it. And like I think seeing

1304
01:12:30,760 --> 01:12:36,720
Speaker 5: them as somehow ideologically inclined towards Israel when the it

1305
01:12:36,840 --> 01:12:38,920
Speaker 5: largely was in Israel who was fighting the Islamic state, right,

1306
01:12:38,960 --> 01:12:41,559
Speaker 5: it was largely them in the US. I think it's

1307
01:12:41,680 --> 01:12:44,720
Speaker 5: just people understanding the politics of the Middle East in

1308
01:12:44,800 --> 01:12:47,799
Speaker 5: terms of Marvel movies that there can only be two sides.

1309
01:12:48,360 --> 01:12:51,040
Speaker 5: And like, I'm sure at the time when they were

1310
01:12:51,040 --> 01:12:54,040
Speaker 5: facing genocide themselves they would have welcomed any support. But

1311
01:12:54,080 --> 01:12:58,040
Speaker 5: that doesn't mean that they support the murder of civilians

1312
01:12:58,040 --> 01:13:00,920
Speaker 5: in Gaza. They have been big, extra remaly clear about

1313
01:13:00,960 --> 01:13:02,519
Speaker 5: that for an extremely long time.

1314
01:13:03,280 --> 01:13:06,000
Speaker 4: Absolutely, I don't think I should becording to the question

1315
01:13:06,200 --> 01:13:08,000
Speaker 4: just because of the statement of one commander.

1316
01:13:08,360 --> 01:13:08,599
Speaker 5: Yep.

1317
01:13:09,520 --> 01:13:13,320
Speaker 4: So, after much fighting, the SDF signed acreements relinquish and

1318
01:13:13,400 --> 01:13:17,679
Speaker 4: control of Araka, dies Azor and remain in territory west

1319
01:13:17,720 --> 01:13:21,800
Speaker 4: of the Euphrates Britain in only Hassaka and Kobane after

1320
01:13:21,880 --> 01:13:26,000
Speaker 4: withdrawing from the Tishrian Dam. But even after concede in

1321
01:13:26,040 --> 01:13:30,599
Speaker 4: so much government forces violated ceasefire terms, so the SDF

1322
01:13:30,600 --> 01:13:34,160
Speaker 4: declared general mobilization across the Kurdish regions of Syria and

1323
01:13:34,240 --> 01:13:38,600
Speaker 4: neighboring states as a last desperate attempt to rally resistance.

1324
01:13:39,360 --> 01:13:42,240
Speaker 4: By the end of January, the Autonomous Administration had lost

1325
01:13:42,320 --> 01:13:45,519
Speaker 4: roughly eighty percent of the territory it once governed. The

1326
01:13:45,600 --> 01:13:48,920
Speaker 4: SDF was forced to retreat almost entirely into Hassaka Governorate,

1327
01:13:49,640 --> 01:13:53,040
Speaker 4: and on the thirtieth of January, the SDF formally announced

1328
01:13:53,080 --> 01:13:56,360
Speaker 4: a cease fire with the Syrian government and accepted a

1329
01:13:56,400 --> 01:14:00,960
Speaker 4: framework for folding both their military structures and civilians into

1330
01:14:00,960 --> 01:14:04,639
Speaker 4: the Syrian state. Syrian authorities set timelines on this agreement.

1331
01:14:04,880 --> 01:14:07,480
Speaker 4: Within a month, they would retake control of water crossings,

1332
01:14:07,840 --> 01:14:12,479
Speaker 4: oil and gas infrastructure like Crimelane, and also Wadi detention

1333
01:14:12,640 --> 01:14:16,080
Speaker 4: camps holding ISIS members and their families, and strategic sites

1334
01:14:16,120 --> 01:14:21,000
Speaker 4: such as Kamishli International Airport. Interior ministry units were scheduled

1335
01:14:21,000 --> 01:14:25,120
Speaker 4: to deploy to Hassaka and Kommissili almost immediately, and Syrian

1336
01:14:25,200 --> 01:14:28,280
Speaker 4: security forces would oversee the absorption of the Kurdish Internal

1337
01:14:28,360 --> 01:14:34,160
Speaker 4: Security Apparatus the SAISH into the state's police in structures. Militarily,

1338
01:14:34,200 --> 01:14:36,959
Speaker 4: the SDF estates to be absorbed under the Syrian Ministry

1339
01:14:37,000 --> 01:14:41,400
Speaker 4: of Defense, but on an individual vetted basis. Up to now,

1340
01:14:41,520 --> 01:14:44,599
Speaker 4: the fate of the female fighters and non Syrian fighters

1341
01:14:44,680 --> 01:14:48,000
Speaker 4: within the SDF is unknown, and on the civilian side

1342
01:14:48,000 --> 01:14:51,000
Speaker 4: of things, the institutions created by the Rajarafa administration are

1343
01:14:51,040 --> 01:14:54,200
Speaker 4: to be absorbed as well. Kurdish officials have thus far

1344
01:14:54,400 --> 01:14:58,200
Speaker 4: secured the governorship of Hassaka and limited commander rules within

1345
01:14:58,240 --> 01:15:02,479
Speaker 4: the military in extreme for their surrender, because gained some

1346
01:15:02,560 --> 01:15:06,559
Speaker 4: recognitions on people. The government claims the firm national civil

1347
01:15:06,560 --> 01:15:10,680
Speaker 4: and educational rights, promised the return of displaced populations and

1348
01:15:10,760 --> 01:15:15,519
Speaker 4: issue decrees recognizing Kurdish as a national language taught in schools,

1349
01:15:16,200 --> 01:15:20,439
Speaker 4: declared the Curtis celebration of Nauru's public body, and reversed

1350
01:15:20,520 --> 01:15:23,960
Speaker 4: decades all citizenship policies that shripped tens of thousands of

1351
01:15:24,000 --> 01:15:27,600
Speaker 4: Coods of their citizenship. Thus far, most of these promises

1352
01:15:27,640 --> 01:15:28,559
Speaker 4: are on people.

1353
01:15:28,720 --> 01:15:31,080
Speaker 5: As I said, yeah, I think they'd see it. It's

1354
01:15:31,160 --> 01:15:35,280
Speaker 5: like a rebranding, not a surrender in agreement. Like from

1355
01:15:35,320 --> 01:15:39,360
Speaker 5: what I understand, the Yeppigates still see themselves as the

1356
01:15:39,880 --> 01:15:42,720
Speaker 5: WHITPG still see themselves as the YPG. The YPG very

1357
01:15:42,800 --> 01:15:46,840
Speaker 5: much still see themselves as the Women's Defense Force and

1358
01:15:46,920 --> 01:15:48,559
Speaker 5: so like, as you say, like, all of this is

1359
01:15:49,720 --> 01:15:55,479
Speaker 5: a paper agreement currently and we will see how I mean,

1360
01:15:55,520 --> 01:15:59,679
Speaker 5: there are now Syrian Ministry of Interior forces in Hesseka

1361
01:15:59,840 --> 01:16:04,000
Speaker 5: and Commichhlo, but like some of that has come to bus.

1362
01:16:04,080 --> 01:16:08,640
Speaker 5: But what this means. Talking to my friends, they're like,

1363
01:16:09,560 --> 01:16:13,439
Speaker 5: we will continue to see exactly, like what the extent

1364
01:16:13,560 --> 01:16:16,840
Speaker 5: they still have autonomy and to what extent they are

1365
01:16:17,520 --> 01:16:20,080
Speaker 5: integrated into a state which has in some instances banned

1366
01:16:20,080 --> 01:16:21,799
Speaker 5: women from wearing makeup for instance.

1367
01:16:22,479 --> 01:16:26,960
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, So the US and franz CO signed this

1368
01:16:27,120 --> 01:16:31,320
Speaker 4: agreement and pledged oversee its implementation, and the President of

1369
01:16:31,320 --> 01:16:34,720
Speaker 4: the Kurdistan Regional Government in Iraq has also welcome disagreement.

1370
01:16:35,280 --> 01:16:38,439
Speaker 4: But it still remains to be seeing what happens next.

1371
01:16:39,040 --> 01:16:43,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, I did see a hundred people who are non

1372
01:16:44,040 --> 01:16:47,200
Speaker 5: Syrian Kurds. I would imagine they would mostly be Turkish

1373
01:16:47,560 --> 01:16:53,320
Speaker 5: from northern Kurdistan had withdrawn from Syria and Gaunt Candyal,

1374
01:16:53,400 --> 01:16:57,200
Speaker 5: which is kind of the stronghold of the various other

1375
01:16:57,240 --> 01:16:59,639
Speaker 5: parts of the Kurdish Freedom movement, and so that that's

1376
01:16:59,680 --> 01:17:02,439
Speaker 5: in so than Kurtistan or Iraq. It's near the border

1377
01:17:02,479 --> 01:17:04,320
Speaker 5: with Iran. But I saw that a number of them

1378
01:17:05,000 --> 01:17:08,400
Speaker 5: had withdrawn post disagreement that was probably on the tenth

1379
01:17:08,439 --> 01:17:09,679
Speaker 5: of February somewhere around there.

1380
01:17:10,680 --> 01:17:15,600
Speaker 4: So yeah, sadly this is an outcome of the imperialist

1381
01:17:15,800 --> 01:17:19,880
Speaker 4: world order that empires and regional actors will crush any

1382
01:17:20,000 --> 01:17:23,479
Speaker 4: threats to their power, will attempt to crush such threats.

1383
01:17:24,040 --> 01:17:26,559
Speaker 4: And as long as such power remains concentrated in these

1384
01:17:26,600 --> 01:17:30,600
Speaker 4: states and militaries and ruling classes, whether they are secular

1385
01:17:30,880 --> 01:17:34,920
Speaker 4: or nationalist, or Islamist or anything else, none of us

1386
01:17:35,640 --> 01:17:39,200
Speaker 4: then be free. Yeah, we could sit around on our

1387
01:17:39,280 --> 01:17:42,160
Speaker 4: armchairs and speculate, but what Moves or Java could have

1388
01:17:42,200 --> 01:17:45,880
Speaker 4: done differently, whether it be an affiliate to advance further,

1389
01:17:46,000 --> 01:17:51,519
Speaker 4: whether it be insufficient integration of and a buying of

1390
01:17:51,640 --> 01:17:56,960
Speaker 4: other groups into the project, whether it be the alliances

1391
01:17:57,080 --> 01:18:00,320
Speaker 4: or agreements or affiliations that they engaged in. We can

1392
01:18:00,360 --> 01:18:02,880
Speaker 4: also sit around lit all the limitations they face. Some

1393
01:18:03,000 --> 01:18:05,840
Speaker 4: they managed to overcome and others not so much. But

1394
01:18:06,439 --> 01:18:09,800
Speaker 4: the blame doesn't lie in their failures to play this

1395
01:18:09,880 --> 01:18:13,280
Speaker 4: game of geopolitical chess as ruthlessly as other powers in

1396
01:18:13,280 --> 01:18:15,840
Speaker 4: the region. I think the blame lies in this game

1397
01:18:15,920 --> 01:18:20,519
Speaker 4: of geopolitical chess, in this ability of imperial powers to

1398
01:18:20,560 --> 01:18:22,920
Speaker 4: treat the people of the region as a whole as

1399
01:18:23,000 --> 01:18:27,800
Speaker 4: tools to be used and discarded. And the end. I

1400
01:18:27,840 --> 01:18:30,400
Speaker 4: continue to hold to the position that only a shared

1401
01:18:30,479 --> 01:18:35,439
Speaker 4: uprising from below, one that refuses compromise, one that cuts

1402
01:18:35,439 --> 01:18:40,320
Speaker 4: across nationalist lines, has the potential to create a new world,

1403
01:18:40,920 --> 01:18:44,080
Speaker 4: and that fight must happen both within Syria and beyond

1404
01:18:44,840 --> 01:18:48,839
Speaker 4: around the entire earth. The fight is not over in Rajaba.

1405
01:18:48,960 --> 01:18:52,200
Speaker 4: I find it hard to believe that a people engaged

1406
01:18:52,320 --> 01:18:56,600
Speaker 4: in such a project would let go of that instinct

1407
01:18:56,760 --> 01:19:00,679
Speaker 4: and that drive toward greater and greater freedom. It remains

1408
01:19:00,720 --> 01:19:02,840
Speaker 4: we seeing what happens with them, but also remains we

1409
01:19:02,920 --> 01:19:05,519
Speaker 4: seeing what happens with us, what we decide to do

1410
01:19:05,760 --> 01:19:09,280
Speaker 4: to push our what's want to mean forward. And that's

1411
01:19:09,320 --> 01:19:13,240
Speaker 4: all from me for today, or power to all the people. Peace.

1412
01:19:27,400 --> 01:19:31,360
Speaker 7: This is it could happen here. I'm Garrison Davis. A

1413
01:19:31,520 --> 01:19:36,639
Speaker 7: revolution is igniting across America, at least according to viral

1414
01:19:36,680 --> 01:19:39,640
Speaker 7: posts on social media and TikTok videos with hundreds of

1415
01:19:39,640 --> 01:19:43,840
Speaker 7: thousands of views claiming that anywhere between three to six

1416
01:19:43,920 --> 01:19:47,439
Speaker 7: to nine warehouses have been set on fire this past

1417
01:19:47,479 --> 01:19:51,479
Speaker 7: week for not paying their employees a living wage.

1418
01:19:51,960 --> 01:19:53,160
Speaker 4: The revolution might be happening.

1419
01:19:53,160 --> 01:19:55,559
Speaker 6: We got a warehouse fire in Ontario, warehouse fire in

1420
01:19:55,600 --> 01:19:59,519
Speaker 6: New York, warehouse fire in Bakersfield, Amazon warehouse fire in Ohio.

1421
01:20:00,000 --> 01:20:01,519
Speaker 3: When they set a mall on fire too.

1422
01:20:01,720 --> 01:20:04,320
Speaker 1: It hasn't just been factories at this point, it's also malls.

1423
01:20:04,760 --> 01:20:09,320
Speaker 4: It seems as though people have begun to eat the.

1424
01:20:09,400 --> 01:20:15,600
Speaker 7: Rich workers of the world ignite. Like most instances of

1425
01:20:15,840 --> 01:20:20,320
Speaker 7: viral misinformation, there is a kernel of truth to this story,

1426
01:20:20,360 --> 01:20:23,840
Speaker 7: and one worth focusing on. But through a massive game

1427
01:20:23,920 --> 01:20:29,960
Speaker 7: of cross platform telephone facts and causality get warped and misconstrued.

1428
01:20:30,760 --> 01:20:34,640
Speaker 7: Selective reporting of similar but unrelated events can be used

1429
01:20:34,680 --> 01:20:37,840
Speaker 7: to assert a connection between certain events even if there

1430
01:20:37,960 --> 01:20:41,639
Speaker 7: is none. But let's start with that kernel of truth.

1431
01:20:42,400 --> 01:20:45,640
Speaker 7: Just after midnight on April seventh, a twenty nine year

1432
01:20:45,680 --> 01:20:50,160
Speaker 7: old warehouse worker named Schamel abdul Karim allegedly set fire

1433
01:20:50,280 --> 01:20:55,519
Speaker 7: to a toilet paper warehouse in Ontario, California, after multiple

1434
01:20:55,520 --> 01:20:58,559
Speaker 7: pallets of paper products were lit on fire. The flames

1435
01:20:58,600 --> 01:21:03,040
Speaker 7: overwhelmed the fires oppression system and collapsed the roof. The

1436
01:21:03,080 --> 01:21:06,799
Speaker 7: blaze took over twelve hours to contain and ultimately destroyed

1437
01:21:07,000 --> 01:21:11,519
Speaker 7: the one point two million square foot distribution center leased

1438
01:21:11,520 --> 01:21:15,799
Speaker 7: by Kimberly Clark, the company behind Kleenex, Huggies, and Cottonell

1439
01:21:15,880 --> 01:21:19,439
Speaker 7: toilet paper. Local officials and the Justice Department has said

1440
01:21:19,479 --> 01:21:24,000
Speaker 7: the fire caused over six hundred million dollars damages. The

1441
01:21:24,040 --> 01:21:27,400
Speaker 7: twenty employees who were working midnight shifts the warehouse when

1442
01:21:27,439 --> 01:21:30,720
Speaker 7: the fire started all evacuated safely, and there were no

1443
01:21:30,880 --> 01:21:36,200
Speaker 7: reported injuries. The day after the fire, videos uploaded to

1444
01:21:36,240 --> 01:21:39,439
Speaker 7: social media the night of the fire resurfaced, appearing to

1445
01:21:39,479 --> 01:21:44,440
Speaker 7: show the suspect intentionally lighting three fires inside the distribution

1446
01:21:44,560 --> 01:21:49,640
Speaker 7: center while speaking aloud about low wages, corporate profits, shareholders,

1447
01:21:49,640 --> 01:21:51,280
Speaker 7: and poor working conditions.

1448
01:21:51,760 --> 01:21:53,519
Speaker 4: You know, if you're not going to pay us enough

1449
01:21:53,560 --> 01:21:56,679
Speaker 4: to live or afford a live, I always pay us enough.

1450
01:21:56,720 --> 01:22:00,960
Speaker 4: Not to do that. All you had to do was

1451
01:22:00,960 --> 01:22:01,920
Speaker 4: pay us enough to live.

1452
01:22:02,800 --> 01:22:04,559
Speaker 3: All you had to do was pay us enough.

1453
01:22:06,479 --> 01:22:07,680
Speaker 1: There goes your inventory.

1454
01:22:08,640 --> 01:22:12,479
Speaker 7: The affidavit filed with the criminal complaint alleges that Abdul

1455
01:22:12,520 --> 01:22:16,160
Speaker 7: Kareem filmed himself setting fire to multiple pallettes of paper

1456
01:22:16,200 --> 01:22:19,599
Speaker 7: goods inside the warehouse, and as he lit the fires,

1457
01:22:19,680 --> 01:22:22,400
Speaker 7: he stated quote, if you're not going to pay us

1458
01:22:22,520 --> 01:22:25,679
Speaker 7: enough to fucking live or afford to live, at least

1459
01:22:25,760 --> 01:22:30,240
Speaker 7: pay us enough not to do this shit unquote. Beyond

1460
01:22:30,240 --> 01:22:33,240
Speaker 7: the short videos abdul Kareem posted to his social media,

1461
01:22:33,680 --> 01:22:36,960
Speaker 7: the affidavit alleges he made further statements to friends and

1462
01:22:37,000 --> 01:22:40,519
Speaker 7: co workers on the phone and via text message related

1463
01:22:40,600 --> 01:22:44,599
Speaker 7: to his motive for setting the fires. He allegedly texted quote,

1464
01:22:44,920 --> 01:22:49,000
Speaker 7: I just cost these expletive billions and wrote that the

1465
01:22:49,120 --> 01:22:53,760
Speaker 7: quote one percent is an expletive joke. US attorney Bill A.

1466
01:22:53,840 --> 01:22:56,400
Speaker 7: Sale said in a press conference that after setting the

1467
01:22:56,439 --> 01:22:59,599
Speaker 7: fire quote in a phone call to one witness, abdul

1468
01:22:59,640 --> 01:23:06,799
Speaker 7: Kareem compared himself to Luigi Mangioni. Abdul Kareem also allegedly

1469
01:23:06,800 --> 01:23:09,240
Speaker 7: texted quote, all you had to do was pay us

1470
01:23:09,360 --> 01:23:12,759
Speaker 7: enough to live, Pay us more of the value we bring,

1471
01:23:13,200 --> 01:23:17,599
Speaker 7: not corporate. Don't see the shareholders picking up a shift unquote.

1472
01:23:18,400 --> 01:23:21,880
Speaker 7: This past Monday, abdul Kareem pleaded not guilty to arson

1473
01:23:21,960 --> 01:23:27,280
Speaker 7: charges in court, though the warehouse stored Kimberlee Clerk Products.

1474
01:23:27,479 --> 01:23:31,840
Speaker 7: Abdul Kareem was actually employed by NFI Industries, a third

1475
01:23:31,880 --> 01:23:36,400
Speaker 7: party distribution company. N FI Industries is a family owned

1476
01:23:36,439 --> 01:23:39,880
Speaker 7: private company and does not report its profits, but last

1477
01:23:40,000 --> 01:23:43,439
Speaker 7: year said they generated more than three point seven billion

1478
01:23:43,520 --> 01:23:48,160
Speaker 7: in annual revenue and had over eighteen thousand employees. The

1479
01:23:48,280 --> 01:23:51,240
Speaker 7: average executive at the company has a two hundred and

1480
01:23:51,280 --> 01:23:55,040
Speaker 7: thirty five thousand dollars salary, with the highest paid making

1481
01:23:55,479 --> 01:23:59,880
Speaker 7: seven hundred thousand dollars annually. Meanwhile, the average pay of

1482
01:24:00,160 --> 01:24:05,240
Speaker 7: an NFI Industry's warehouse worker in California, per job listing

1483
01:24:05,280 --> 01:24:10,920
Speaker 7: sites is eighteen seventy four an hour, with forklift operators

1484
01:24:10,920 --> 01:24:14,280
Speaker 7: and warehouse specialists making twenty two dollars and thirty nine

1485
01:24:14,280 --> 01:24:18,840
Speaker 7: cents an hour. The median household income in Ontario, California

1486
01:24:19,240 --> 01:24:22,559
Speaker 7: is eighty two thousand, eight hundred and six dollars a year,

1487
01:24:22,960 --> 01:24:26,519
Speaker 7: and the average salary is over seventy three thousand dollars

1488
01:24:26,520 --> 01:24:31,240
Speaker 7: a year or thirty five dollars hourly. Ontario, California has

1489
01:24:31,280 --> 01:24:34,120
Speaker 7: a twenty eight percent higher cost of living than the

1490
01:24:34,200 --> 01:24:39,639
Speaker 7: national average. Last year, Kimberly Clark made two point four

1491
01:24:39,680 --> 01:24:45,160
Speaker 7: billion in operating profit. The footage of this worker allegedly

1492
01:24:45,320 --> 01:24:49,480
Speaker 7: lighting the warehouse on fire went super viral on TikTok,

1493
01:24:49,560 --> 01:24:53,640
Speaker 7: with millions and millions of us sparking meme edits and

1494
01:24:53,760 --> 01:24:57,679
Speaker 7: hype videos. Then, in the days after the toilet paper fire,

1495
01:24:58,320 --> 01:25:02,200
Speaker 7: footage of other where house fires sorry to spread around TikTok,

1496
01:25:02,760 --> 01:25:05,880
Speaker 7: leading some people to believe that copycat incidents might be

1497
01:25:05,880 --> 01:25:09,719
Speaker 7: taking place across the country. Here's a clip with over

1498
01:25:09,840 --> 01:25:13,880
Speaker 7: three hundred thousand views of a left wing TikTok influencer

1499
01:25:14,240 --> 01:25:17,360
Speaker 7: claiming that since the toilet paper arson, more people have

1500
01:25:17,439 --> 01:25:20,439
Speaker 7: begun setting their workplaces on fire.

1501
01:25:20,920 --> 01:25:24,519
Speaker 8: So apparently that guy that burns down the toilet paper

1502
01:25:24,560 --> 01:25:27,360
Speaker 8: warehouse because they were not paying him a living wage

1503
01:25:27,479 --> 01:25:30,000
Speaker 8: or anyone the living wage for that matter, who the

1504
01:25:30,120 --> 01:25:35,160
Speaker 8: Internet has dubbed wall Luigi for warehouse Luigi, was not

1505
01:25:35,280 --> 01:25:39,479
Speaker 8: the only one with that idea or to execute on it.

1506
01:25:39,600 --> 01:25:41,759
Speaker 8: And I will say I am not one hundred percent

1507
01:25:41,800 --> 01:25:44,080
Speaker 8: shore on the timelines of all of these.

1508
01:25:44,680 --> 01:25:47,439
Speaker 7: Oh you're not one hundred percent suore, Well, then that's

1509
01:25:47,560 --> 01:25:50,960
Speaker 7: that's fine. Continue anyway. This guy goes on to say

1510
01:25:51,000 --> 01:25:55,639
Speaker 7: that since Wa Luigi, he's seen quote four to five

1511
01:25:55,720 --> 01:25:59,920
Speaker 7: to six other warehouses that have quote burned down or

1512
01:26:00,120 --> 01:26:03,920
Speaker 7: at least been set on fire unquote. A lot of

1513
01:26:03,920 --> 01:26:07,960
Speaker 7: this social media reporting does not differentiate between a warehouse

1514
01:26:08,040 --> 01:26:11,519
Speaker 7: completely burning down and a small fire that is quickly

1515
01:26:11,600 --> 01:26:15,919
Speaker 7: put out. Neither do these social media reports provide evidence

1516
01:26:15,960 --> 01:26:19,320
Speaker 7: to the cause of these fires. One of the most

1517
01:26:19,320 --> 01:26:22,360
Speaker 7: circulated videos of one of these other fires is from Queen's.

1518
01:26:23,160 --> 01:26:26,839
Speaker 7: At seven point thirty pm on Friday night, someone reported

1519
01:26:26,880 --> 01:26:31,240
Speaker 7: smoke at an industrial complex in College Point, Queens. Firefighters

1520
01:26:31,240 --> 01:26:35,800
Speaker 7: soon responded to a rapidly growing fire inside a lumberyard warehouse.

1521
01:26:36,439 --> 01:26:38,799
Speaker 7: After the building was searched and no one was found inside,

1522
01:26:39,080 --> 01:26:42,200
Speaker 7: three hundred firefighters worked all night to contain the blaze

1523
01:26:42,360 --> 01:26:47,360
Speaker 7: to the sixty four thousand square foot warehouse. The lumberyard

1524
01:26:47,439 --> 01:26:50,320
Speaker 7: did burn down, but no injuries were reported, and the

1525
01:26:50,360 --> 01:26:54,400
Speaker 7: cause of the fire is still under investigation. But a

1526
01:26:54,439 --> 01:26:57,000
Speaker 7: post on x the Everything app with almost a million

1527
01:26:57,040 --> 01:27:02,120
Speaker 7: quote unquote views read quote an other disgruntled employee strikes

1528
01:27:02,160 --> 01:27:06,519
Speaker 7: at the heart of American capital. That TikTok influencer I

1529
01:27:06,600 --> 01:27:11,320
Speaker 7: already mentioned was very excited to share news of an

1530
01:27:11,400 --> 01:27:15,680
Speaker 7: Amazon warehouse on fire, despite not being quite sure of

1531
01:27:15,720 --> 01:27:19,080
Speaker 7: the details or how many warehouses were actually on.

1532
01:27:19,040 --> 01:27:23,719
Speaker 8: Fire, at least one of which I am beyond happy

1533
01:27:23,880 --> 01:27:27,519
Speaker 8: to announce one an Amazon warehouse, which is not to

1534
01:27:27,560 --> 01:27:30,760
Speaker 8: say more than one morn effect did. I've seen multiple

1535
01:27:30,840 --> 01:27:34,760
Speaker 8: videos of an Amazon warehouse on fire. I'm just not

1536
01:27:34,800 --> 01:27:37,599
Speaker 8: sure if it was multiple Amazon warehouses on fire or

1537
01:27:37,680 --> 01:27:41,479
Speaker 8: just multiple people recording the same Amazon warehouse that was

1538
01:27:41,479 --> 01:27:44,479
Speaker 8: on fire. Either way, either way, bottom line, people are

1539
01:27:44,520 --> 01:27:46,439
Speaker 8: setting Amazon warehouses on fire.

1540
01:27:47,040 --> 01:27:51,639
Speaker 7: There is no evidence anyone set this Amazon warehouse on fire,

1541
01:27:51,680 --> 01:27:55,080
Speaker 7: and yes, it is just one warehouse, not multiple. On

1542
01:27:55,160 --> 01:27:58,639
Speaker 7: April eighth, firefighters responded to a fire at an Amazon

1543
01:27:58,680 --> 01:28:03,800
Speaker 7: warehouse in West Jefferson, Ohio. The fulfillment center was evacuated

1544
01:28:03,840 --> 01:28:07,320
Speaker 7: as smoke billowed from the roof of the warehouse. The

1545
01:28:07,400 --> 01:28:11,559
Speaker 7: fire was extinguished quickly and caused quote unquote minimal damage

1546
01:28:11,680 --> 01:28:15,360
Speaker 7: to the underside of the roof. According to Jefferson Township

1547
01:28:15,400 --> 01:28:18,840
Speaker 7: fire Chief Dan Gatley, there is no evidence that this

1548
01:28:18,880 --> 01:28:23,799
Speaker 7: fire was intentionally set by an employee or by anyone,

1549
01:28:24,320 --> 01:28:28,240
Speaker 7: and was possibly caused by a simple solar panel malfunction.

1550
01:28:28,920 --> 01:28:32,360
Speaker 7: Investigators believe seventy five to one hundred solar panels on

1551
01:28:32,439 --> 01:28:35,720
Speaker 7: the roof of the warehouse caught fire, which burnt through

1552
01:28:35,880 --> 01:28:39,160
Speaker 7: quote just a little bit of the rubber membrane on

1553
01:28:39,240 --> 01:28:43,200
Speaker 7: the roofing and some of the insulation quote. According to

1554
01:28:43,400 --> 01:28:47,360
Speaker 7: fire chief Gatley, this insulation fell onto two racks of

1555
01:28:47,360 --> 01:28:51,759
Speaker 7: Amazon products, but Gatley estimated that more damage was caused

1556
01:28:51,760 --> 01:28:54,400
Speaker 7: by the water used to put out the solar panel

1557
01:28:54,439 --> 01:28:58,120
Speaker 7: fire than from the smoke or the fire itself. The

1558
01:28:58,160 --> 01:29:01,840
Speaker 7: exact cause of the fire is still on investigation. A

1559
01:29:01,920 --> 01:29:04,960
Speaker 7: post on x the Everything app with one point one

1560
01:29:05,040 --> 01:29:09,400
Speaker 7: million quote unquote views and twenty seven thousand likes, shared

1561
01:29:09,479 --> 01:29:12,839
Speaker 7: video of smoke billowing from the roof of the Amazon

1562
01:29:12,880 --> 01:29:16,400
Speaker 7: warehouse and was captioned, this is beginning to feel like

1563
01:29:16,479 --> 01:29:21,120
Speaker 7: something of a movement. Another post from a monetized blue

1564
01:29:21,200 --> 01:29:24,599
Speaker 7: check account with one million quote unquote views and twenty

1565
01:29:24,680 --> 01:29:28,320
Speaker 7: six thousand likes, also shared footage of the Amazon fire

1566
01:29:28,560 --> 01:29:32,240
Speaker 7: with the caption another warehouse fire, this time in Amazon

1567
01:29:32,240 --> 01:29:36,120
Speaker 7: fulfillment center in West Jefferson, Ohio. Warehouse employees across the

1568
01:29:36,120 --> 01:29:39,800
Speaker 7: country are using their unique position to attack the substructure

1569
01:29:40,120 --> 01:29:45,720
Speaker 7: and base of the Epstein class unquote. We'll return to

1570
01:29:45,840 --> 01:29:49,320
Speaker 7: talk more about these fires after this ad break.

1571
01:30:00,200 --> 01:30:01,080
Speaker 2: Okay, we're back.

1572
01:30:02,120 --> 01:30:07,120
Speaker 7: By the weekend, this warehouse fire meme really exploded and

1573
01:30:07,160 --> 01:30:10,280
Speaker 7: people started collecting reports of warehouse fires from all across

1574
01:30:10,320 --> 01:30:14,120
Speaker 7: the country. This next video went viral across TikTok and

1575
01:30:14,320 --> 01:30:16,640
Speaker 7: also spread to Reddit and Instagram.

1576
01:30:16,920 --> 01:30:19,200
Speaker 9: I was tagged about this. This is an Amazon warehouse

1577
01:30:19,200 --> 01:30:21,360
Speaker 9: that also just caught on fire. So this is the

1578
01:30:21,520 --> 01:30:24,439
Speaker 9: third one after we just heard about New York and

1579
01:30:24,520 --> 01:30:26,960
Speaker 9: Queens and then the other one in California where we

1580
01:30:27,040 --> 01:30:30,559
Speaker 9: saw the big video behind it. Right now, this is

1581
01:30:30,560 --> 01:30:33,040
Speaker 9: breaking news. I don't know much about it. I was

1582
01:30:33,120 --> 01:30:37,320
Speaker 9: tagged in this, this happened. I think perhaps today I'm.

1583
01:30:37,200 --> 01:30:40,839
Speaker 7: Gonna pause right here because next she includes a severe

1584
01:30:40,960 --> 01:30:46,000
Speaker 7: weather alert warning for risk of fire spreading in the Northeast,

1585
01:30:46,280 --> 01:30:50,799
Speaker 7: as if wildfires, and this weather alert was somehow related

1586
01:30:50,960 --> 01:30:54,800
Speaker 7: to warehouse fires on the other side of the country.

1587
01:30:54,840 --> 01:30:56,679
Speaker 9: And I haven't been able to find any news about

1588
01:30:56,680 --> 01:31:00,479
Speaker 9: it online yet. But there's this special Weather statement moderate

1589
01:31:00,960 --> 01:31:04,880
Speaker 9: for a fire spread in Pennsylvania right now. So that's

1590
01:31:05,120 --> 01:31:08,960
Speaker 9: four five right here where somebody said a Jene's store

1591
01:31:09,000 --> 01:31:12,720
Speaker 9: was set in fire in California. Again, I can't corroborate

1592
01:31:12,720 --> 01:31:14,960
Speaker 9: these things right now, these are just comments. And somebody

1593
01:31:15,000 --> 01:31:18,880
Speaker 9: also said New Jersey for another warehouse fire, so that

1594
01:31:19,040 --> 01:31:25,639
Speaker 9: is literally California, New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania, New Jersey. I'm

1595
01:31:25,680 --> 01:31:28,439
Speaker 9: getting comments and reports in right now that there have

1596
01:31:28,520 --> 01:31:34,000
Speaker 9: been five different warehouse or storefront fires in the last

1597
01:31:34,200 --> 01:31:41,960
Speaker 9: three days. This shit is fucking wild. Holy six. I

1598
01:31:42,000 --> 01:31:47,200
Speaker 9: think that's six because it's two in California, New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania,

1599
01:31:47,320 --> 01:31:49,840
Speaker 9: and New Jersey. And again, I'm trying to find these

1600
01:31:49,960 --> 01:31:51,880
Speaker 9: items online right now, but like, I don't think the

1601
01:31:51,920 --> 01:31:53,840
Speaker 9: new cycle is caught up fast enough to it. So

1602
01:31:53,960 --> 01:31:58,080
Speaker 9: like who class war twenty twenty six shit?

1603
01:31:58,720 --> 01:32:01,000
Speaker 7: This person describes for off on TikTok as a quote

1604
01:32:01,040 --> 01:32:04,280
Speaker 7: unquote gorilla journalist, and that video got almost half a

1605
01:32:04,320 --> 01:32:07,960
Speaker 7: million views on TikTok and seventy four thousand likes by

1606
01:32:08,560 --> 01:32:12,080
Speaker 7: baselessly claiming that a string of fires that may or

1607
01:32:12,120 --> 01:32:16,680
Speaker 7: may not even be real are actually intentional arsons in

1608
01:32:16,720 --> 01:32:21,040
Speaker 7: an escalating class war hashtag eat the rich. Let's go

1609
01:32:21,120 --> 01:32:23,040
Speaker 7: over some of the details of a few of the

1610
01:32:23,080 --> 01:32:26,840
Speaker 7: fires that she and others have mentioned. In New Jersey.

1611
01:32:26,880 --> 01:32:29,479
Speaker 7: There were actually three fires this past week, one at

1612
01:32:29,479 --> 01:32:32,720
Speaker 7: a chemical plant, one at a battery warehouse and a

1613
01:32:32,760 --> 01:32:37,800
Speaker 7: wildfire which sent smoke into Pennsylvania. On Thursday, April ninth,

1614
01:32:38,000 --> 01:32:41,360
Speaker 7: a three alarm fire spread through a chemical warehouse in Newark,

1615
01:32:41,439 --> 01:32:44,960
Speaker 7: New Jersey. Over one hundred firefighters brought the fire under

1616
01:32:44,960 --> 01:32:48,240
Speaker 7: control that afternoon. No employees were harmed and the cause

1617
01:32:48,320 --> 01:32:52,679
Speaker 7: is under investigation. On the morning of April thirteenth, there

1618
01:32:52,760 --> 01:32:56,479
Speaker 7: was another three alarm warehouse fire in Rawway, New Jersey.

1619
01:32:57,000 --> 01:33:01,120
Speaker 7: While searching the structure, firefighters discovered the blaze emerged from

1620
01:33:01,240 --> 01:33:05,400
Speaker 7: palettes of lithium ion batteries. The exact cause of the

1621
01:33:05,400 --> 01:33:09,640
Speaker 7: fire still remains under investigation, and this past weekend, a

1622
01:33:09,680 --> 01:33:13,679
Speaker 7: wildfire spread through South New Jersey, burning up to one

1623
01:33:13,760 --> 01:33:17,600
Speaker 7: hundred and sixty acres and sending smoke into Pennsylvania. The

1624
01:33:17,680 --> 01:33:20,960
Speaker 7: National Weather Service worn beforehand that there was an elevated

1625
01:33:21,080 --> 01:33:24,640
Speaker 7: risk of wildfires last Saturday due to low humidity and

1626
01:33:24,760 --> 01:33:28,920
Speaker 7: twenty five mile per hour wind gusts. On the afternoon

1627
01:33:28,960 --> 01:33:33,280
Speaker 7: of Friday, April tenth, firefighters responded to a commercial structure

1628
01:33:33,320 --> 01:33:38,240
Speaker 7: fire at a trash disposal business near Atlanta, Georgia. The

1629
01:33:38,280 --> 01:33:41,680
Speaker 7: blaze stemmed from a garbage fire in the warehouse that

1630
01:33:41,760 --> 01:33:44,120
Speaker 7: grew out of control when adult was sent to the

1631
01:33:44,120 --> 01:33:47,840
Speaker 7: hospital with non life threatening injuries. Per a Gwinette County

1632
01:33:47,880 --> 01:33:52,719
Speaker 7: news release, quote, the incident presented several operational challenges, including

1633
01:33:52,760 --> 01:33:56,400
Speaker 7: a downed power line, a deep seated fire within large

1634
01:33:56,439 --> 01:34:01,559
Speaker 7: debris piles, structural components exposed to prolonged teat, and nearby

1635
01:34:01,760 --> 01:34:06,679
Speaker 7: hazards involving liquid petroleum gas tanks, and a diesel fuel reservoir.

1636
01:34:07,040 --> 01:34:07,360
Speaker 3: Quote.

1637
01:34:07,800 --> 01:34:11,879
Speaker 7: Firefighters brought this fire under control in less than four hours.

1638
01:34:12,360 --> 01:34:16,160
Speaker 7: According to employees, the fire originated from a small trash

1639
01:34:16,160 --> 01:34:19,840
Speaker 7: fire near the edge of the warehouse. Workers attempted to

1640
01:34:19,880 --> 01:34:23,280
Speaker 7: remove the burning debris before the fire rapidly intensified and

1641
01:34:23,360 --> 01:34:26,760
Speaker 7: spread to the structure. The fire was ruled accidental, and

1642
01:34:26,880 --> 01:34:30,519
Speaker 7: department spokesperson Lieutenant Jessica Joyner said that it appears to

1643
01:34:30,600 --> 01:34:34,160
Speaker 7: have been caused by trash piled in an unsafe manner,

1644
01:34:34,439 --> 01:34:38,440
Speaker 7: which can combust when mixed together at such garbage facilities.

1645
01:34:39,080 --> 01:34:43,400
Speaker 7: But two days later, a viral post read quote Atlanta

1646
01:34:43,600 --> 01:34:48,880
Speaker 7: Queen's Bakersfield, Ontario. I'm starting to lose track. Many people

1647
01:34:48,920 --> 01:34:54,360
Speaker 7: are saying only living wages can prevent warehouse fires. Speaking

1648
01:34:54,439 --> 01:35:00,320
Speaker 7: of Bakersfield, a quote unquote communist Twitter account quote a

1649
01:35:00,400 --> 01:35:03,680
Speaker 7: video of a warehouse fire in Bakersfield, California from a

1650
01:35:03,800 --> 01:35:08,160
Speaker 7: monetized news aggregator account and got twenty one thousand likes

1651
01:35:08,160 --> 01:35:11,920
Speaker 7: by writing let it be a pattern. Another account shared

1652
01:35:11,960 --> 01:35:15,360
Speaker 7: a different video ripped from TikTok, captioned it's almost like

1653
01:35:15,400 --> 01:35:19,760
Speaker 7: electing billionaires was a bad idea. A socialist branded monetized

1654
01:35:19,800 --> 01:35:23,639
Speaker 7: account posted another angle of the Baker's Field fire, getting

1655
01:35:23,680 --> 01:35:27,960
Speaker 7: fourteen thousand likes with the caption is a rebellion actually

1656
01:35:28,000 --> 01:35:32,000
Speaker 7: brewing in the Imperial Core. On the afternoon of April eleventh,

1657
01:35:32,200 --> 01:35:35,840
Speaker 7: firefighters responded to a fire at a thirty thousand square

1658
01:35:35,840 --> 01:35:40,040
Speaker 7: foot warehouse in East Bakersfield. The Kerrn County Fire Department

1659
01:35:40,040 --> 01:35:43,160
Speaker 7: said this is the third time buildings at this warehouse

1660
01:35:43,280 --> 01:35:46,000
Speaker 7: complex have caught on fire in the past few years,

1661
01:35:46,479 --> 01:35:49,360
Speaker 7: with similar fires in November twenty twenty four and January

1662
01:35:49,400 --> 01:35:52,040
Speaker 7: twenty twenty five. The cause of this new fire is

1663
01:35:52,080 --> 01:35:55,200
Speaker 7: still unknown and under investigation, but we know it was

1664
01:35:55,240 --> 01:36:00,160
Speaker 7: definitely not caused by warehouse employees because this is an

1665
01:36:00,160 --> 01:36:03,920
Speaker 7: abandoned warehouse. The previous owner of the buildings told local

1666
01:36:03,960 --> 01:36:07,680
Speaker 7: news that the fires have been started by quote unquote vagrants.

1667
01:36:08,720 --> 01:36:12,400
Speaker 7: A massive fire engulfed another lumberyard last Saturday night in

1668
01:36:12,479 --> 01:36:16,280
Speaker 7: Wayne County, Ohio. It took twenty four fire departments across

1669
01:36:16,360 --> 01:36:20,360
Speaker 7: three counties working together to extinguish the flames. This lumberyard

1670
01:36:20,560 --> 01:36:25,759
Speaker 7: was home to a wooden Pallette manufacturing business. On Sunday afternoon,

1671
01:36:25,760 --> 01:36:29,400
Speaker 7: the owners of the Pallette manufacturing plant said in a statement, quote,

1672
01:36:29,640 --> 01:36:31,800
Speaker 7: we are grateful no one was injured and that the

1673
01:36:31,880 --> 01:36:34,960
Speaker 7: fire was contained. We are working with investigators to determine

1674
01:36:35,000 --> 01:36:38,880
Speaker 7: the cause and with our insurance carrier to begin recovery.

1675
01:36:39,439 --> 01:36:42,719
Speaker 7: Southwood Palette has served this community for forty two years,

1676
01:36:43,080 --> 01:36:46,320
Speaker 7: and we intend to rebuild and be stronger than ever.

1677
01:36:46,600 --> 01:36:47,240
Speaker 2: Unquote.

1678
01:36:47,800 --> 01:36:50,799
Speaker 7: Footage of this fire racked up over half a million

1679
01:36:50,840 --> 01:36:55,839
Speaker 7: quote unquote views on a socialist branded monetized ex account captioned,

1680
01:36:56,360 --> 01:36:58,799
Speaker 7: now there is a five alarm fire at a lumber

1681
01:36:58,920 --> 01:37:02,479
Speaker 7: Pallette warehouse in Wine County, Ohio. There are too many

1682
01:37:02,520 --> 01:37:05,639
Speaker 7: fires to be a coincidence. The working class has had

1683
01:37:05,680 --> 01:37:09,160
Speaker 7: it and quote. Tweets of the video got tens of

1684
01:37:09,200 --> 01:37:13,240
Speaker 7: thousands of likes, with users writing, quote love to see

1685
01:37:13,280 --> 01:37:16,680
Speaker 7: people finally standing up against their employers. Eight in a

1686
01:37:16,720 --> 01:37:21,760
Speaker 7: week and no more thoughts and prayers, only fire unquote.

1687
01:37:22,800 --> 01:37:27,320
Speaker 7: Here's another video with over three hundred thousand views from

1688
01:37:27,400 --> 01:37:31,160
Speaker 7: that TikTok Gorilla journalist going through a few more of

1689
01:37:31,200 --> 01:37:33,720
Speaker 7: these warehouse fires that I've mentioned.

1690
01:37:33,560 --> 01:37:35,920
Speaker 9: Based on all of my comments and my research online,

1691
01:37:35,960 --> 01:37:37,600
Speaker 9: based on what people are telling me and from what

1692
01:37:37,640 --> 01:37:39,599
Speaker 9: I can see, the ones that I can corroborate right

1693
01:37:39,640 --> 01:37:42,719
Speaker 9: now was that last one was Ohio in a lumber yard,

1694
01:37:42,880 --> 01:37:45,320
Speaker 9: and then we had the Ohio Amazon, which was apparently

1695
01:37:45,479 --> 01:37:48,600
Speaker 9: due to the solar panels, we'll say. And then we

1696
01:37:48,680 --> 01:37:51,040
Speaker 9: have one in the Queens, New York one which was

1697
01:37:51,040 --> 01:37:54,120
Speaker 9: a lumber as well. New Jersey was a chemical warehouse.

1698
01:37:54,200 --> 01:37:57,599
Speaker 9: Georgia was a commercial structure. And then lastly, the one

1699
01:37:57,600 --> 01:37:59,920
Speaker 9: that you all been tagging me in is the California

1700
01:38:00,120 --> 01:38:02,280
Speaker 9: Jane Store which spread throughout the mall. From what I

1701
01:38:02,320 --> 01:38:04,720
Speaker 9: can hear and have seen online, so that is a

1702
01:38:04,800 --> 01:38:09,439
Speaker 9: total of seven since our original Luigi Man set fire

1703
01:38:09,760 --> 01:38:14,160
Speaker 9: to the toilet paper facility that one. So that's where

1704
01:38:14,160 --> 01:38:17,120
Speaker 9: we are right now, a total of seven in about

1705
01:38:17,320 --> 01:38:23,240
Speaker 9: three four days of warehouse storefront fires throughout the United States.

1706
01:38:23,280 --> 01:38:25,040
Speaker 9: Now we don't know about all of them, but these

1707
01:38:25,080 --> 01:38:27,760
Speaker 9: are the ones that are on the radar right now.

1708
01:38:27,800 --> 01:38:29,240
Speaker 9: So if there's more out there, let me know. But

1709
01:38:29,479 --> 01:38:30,479
Speaker 9: we're up to seven now.

1710
01:38:31,240 --> 01:38:33,960
Speaker 7: Out of all the fires that she's talked about, the

1711
01:38:33,960 --> 01:38:36,800
Speaker 7: only one that we know is ourson. Besides the toilet

1712
01:38:36,840 --> 01:38:39,960
Speaker 7: paper warehouse, is this fire at a mall in the

1713
01:38:40,000 --> 01:38:43,160
Speaker 7: same city in California, where a man who does not

1714
01:38:43,320 --> 01:38:47,599
Speaker 7: work at the mall allegedly lit multiple fires across several stores.

1715
01:38:48,320 --> 01:38:51,680
Speaker 7: The mall reopened later that same day, and authorities have

1716
01:38:51,760 --> 01:38:55,000
Speaker 7: said there's no connection to the warehouse fire, though the

1717
01:38:55,040 --> 01:38:59,759
Speaker 7: investigation is still ongoing. Before I discuss what's actually happening

1718
01:38:59,760 --> 01:39:03,320
Speaker 7: with all these warehouse fires, let's go on one more

1719
01:39:03,400 --> 01:39:04,160
Speaker 7: at break.

1720
01:39:14,800 --> 01:39:15,760
Speaker 5: All right, we are back.

1721
01:39:16,520 --> 01:39:19,360
Speaker 7: So what's really going on with all these warehouse fires?

1722
01:39:19,479 --> 01:39:22,320
Speaker 7: Is all this reporting just a coincidence? Are these fires

1723
01:39:22,400 --> 01:39:26,400
Speaker 7: really labor related? Are these all disgruntled employees? Is there

1724
01:39:26,439 --> 01:39:31,840
Speaker 7: even more fires happening than usual? All good questions. Even

1725
01:39:32,040 --> 01:39:35,040
Speaker 7: if the exact cause of most of these fires hasn't

1726
01:39:35,080 --> 01:39:38,400
Speaker 7: yet been determined, it does seem from watching all these

1727
01:39:38,479 --> 01:39:42,599
Speaker 7: videos that there's been an increase of warehouse fires since

1728
01:39:42,680 --> 01:39:47,200
Speaker 7: the first toilet paper inferno. Though, just because you're more

1729
01:39:47,280 --> 01:39:51,479
Speaker 7: aware of warehouse fires happening across the country doesn't mean

1730
01:39:51,600 --> 01:39:54,920
Speaker 7: that these fires are actually happening at a higher rate.

1731
01:39:55,640 --> 01:39:59,760
Speaker 7: A report from the National Fire Protection Association found that

1732
01:39:59,800 --> 01:40:03,759
Speaker 7: for from twenty to twenty twenty four and estimated one thousand,

1733
01:40:03,840 --> 01:40:08,200
Speaker 7: five hundred and forty four warehouse fires occur every year.

1734
01:40:08,920 --> 01:40:13,400
Speaker 7: That's an average of four fires per day. Warehouses are

1735
01:40:13,600 --> 01:40:17,040
Speaker 7: home to a lot of high heat equipment and materials

1736
01:40:17,080 --> 01:40:22,400
Speaker 7: that are easily combustible, like lumber, paper products, batteries, and chemicals.

1737
01:40:23,160 --> 01:40:26,320
Speaker 7: The recent National Fire Protection Association report found that most

1738
01:40:26,360 --> 01:40:31,320
Speaker 7: warehouse structure fires had an unintentional cause twenty nine percent,

1739
01:40:32,040 --> 01:40:35,080
Speaker 7: ten percent were caused by failure of equipment or a

1740
01:40:35,120 --> 01:40:40,919
Speaker 7: heat source, and intentional fires accounted for just seven percent

1741
01:40:41,200 --> 01:40:46,000
Speaker 7: of warehouse fires. Operating equipment was the leading heat source

1742
01:40:46,080 --> 01:40:50,479
Speaker 7: in warehouse fires, responsible for forty three percent, and shop

1743
01:40:50,520 --> 01:40:53,519
Speaker 7: tools and industrial equipment were involved in the ignition of

1744
01:40:53,680 --> 01:40:58,200
Speaker 7: nineteen percent of warehouse fires. Misuse of material or product

1745
01:40:58,280 --> 01:41:02,759
Speaker 7: and electrical failure are the leading factors contributing to ignition.

1746
01:41:03,320 --> 01:41:07,040
Speaker 7: Improper storage of flammable materials and human error are also

1747
01:41:07,200 --> 01:41:13,160
Speaker 7: contributing factors. Intentionally set fires or arson does happen, but

1748
01:41:13,200 --> 01:41:16,400
Speaker 7: it's not the most common cause of modern warehouse fires.

1749
01:41:16,960 --> 01:41:20,880
Speaker 7: And again, warehouse structure fires happen four times a day

1750
01:41:20,960 --> 01:41:24,160
Speaker 7: on average, So not only is there no proof that

1751
01:41:24,680 --> 01:41:28,720
Speaker 7: underpaid employees have begun a free of lighting fire to

1752
01:41:28,760 --> 01:41:33,080
Speaker 7: their workplace, but there hasn't even been a recent increase

1753
01:41:33,200 --> 01:41:38,439
Speaker 7: in warehouse fires. On Monday afternoon, footage spread online of

1754
01:41:38,479 --> 01:41:43,120
Speaker 7: another warehouse fire outside Miami with the caption living wages

1755
01:41:43,200 --> 01:41:48,679
Speaker 7: prevent warehouse fires. But this fire actually took place over

1756
01:41:48,800 --> 01:41:52,479
Speaker 7: a month ago on March fifth, twenty twenty six, and

1757
01:41:52,560 --> 01:41:58,520
Speaker 7: an inventory storage warehouse. An employee told NBC Miami quote, Apparently,

1758
01:41:58,560 --> 01:42:01,559
Speaker 7: there was a short circuit and a spark fell on

1759
01:42:01,560 --> 01:42:04,000
Speaker 7: one of the carpets we have, and that's how the

1760
01:42:04,040 --> 01:42:06,439
Speaker 7: fire started. We try to put it out, but it

1761
01:42:06,520 --> 01:42:11,599
Speaker 7: happened too fast. Officials have not yet confirmed those details,

1762
01:42:11,640 --> 01:42:14,040
Speaker 7: and the exact cause the fire is still under investigation.

1763
01:42:14,800 --> 01:42:18,680
Speaker 7: But it is literally impossible for this fire to in

1764
01:42:18,760 --> 01:42:22,439
Speaker 7: any way be related to the toilet paper warehouse because

1765
01:42:22,479 --> 01:42:25,920
Speaker 7: it happened a month prior, and the footage is just

1766
01:42:26,040 --> 01:42:31,280
Speaker 7: circulating now to boost social media engagement. The video of

1767
01:42:31,400 --> 01:42:35,200
Speaker 7: the employee allegedly setting fire to Pallette. Toilet paper channeled

1768
01:42:35,520 --> 01:42:39,479
Speaker 7: such a strong feeling across American workers that people invented

1769
01:42:39,520 --> 01:42:42,599
Speaker 7: and circulated a whole fake news cycle about a string

1770
01:42:42,720 --> 01:42:44,280
Speaker 7: of copycat incidents.

1771
01:42:44,640 --> 01:42:47,440
Speaker 6: Something comes me, We're not done with the warehouse fires,

1772
01:42:47,479 --> 01:42:49,720
Speaker 6: just a hunch, because only if you had paid us

1773
01:42:49,880 --> 01:42:53,280
Speaker 6: a livable wage. And I'm pretty sure everyone is fucking

1774
01:42:53,360 --> 01:42:55,200
Speaker 6: over corporate America at this point.

1775
01:42:55,400 --> 01:42:56,200
Speaker 4: Like over it.

1776
01:42:56,520 --> 01:42:58,479
Speaker 6: People are starting to realize that there are more of

1777
01:42:58,560 --> 01:43:00,640
Speaker 6: us than there are of them, and the only thing

1778
01:43:00,680 --> 01:43:02,880
Speaker 6: that they care about is their profits, not the people.

1779
01:43:03,080 --> 01:43:05,479
Speaker 6: So if you burn down the profits, the people will

1780
01:43:05,520 --> 01:43:08,439
Speaker 6: find other jobs. Companies have to assure it the message

1781
01:43:08,479 --> 01:43:11,519
Speaker 6: really sends. I'm not concerning it or encouraging it, but

1782
01:43:11,600 --> 01:43:13,360
Speaker 6: I am saying it makes.

1783
01:43:13,080 --> 01:43:17,479
Speaker 7: A point that TikTok clip demonstrates why people are so

1784
01:43:17,680 --> 01:43:21,080
Speaker 7: primed to share these fire spree claims and memes of

1785
01:43:21,120 --> 01:43:24,960
Speaker 7: Smoky the Bear saying only living wages can prevent warehouse fires.

1786
01:43:25,760 --> 01:43:29,920
Speaker 7: This whole warehouse fire social media news cycle is an

1787
01:43:29,920 --> 01:43:33,680
Speaker 7: instance of selective reporting, which happens when there is a

1788
01:43:33,720 --> 01:43:38,000
Speaker 7: big national news story like someone filming themselves burning down

1789
01:43:38,040 --> 01:43:40,880
Speaker 7: a one point two million square foot warehouse and then

1790
01:43:41,040 --> 01:43:44,919
Speaker 7: that causes people to share what they believe are related stories,

1791
01:43:45,400 --> 01:43:48,800
Speaker 7: often from local news reporting, even if the connection is

1792
01:43:49,080 --> 01:43:53,880
Speaker 7: minor or tangential at best. A local report from Wayne County,

1793
01:43:53,880 --> 01:43:58,720
Speaker 7: Ohio ordinarily would not circulate as national news, but on

1794
01:43:58,760 --> 01:44:03,679
Speaker 7: social media a relatively unremarkable lumberyard fire can become part

1795
01:44:03,800 --> 01:44:08,280
Speaker 7: of a new, increasing trend. Sometimes local news agencies themselves

1796
01:44:08,439 --> 01:44:11,719
Speaker 7: may be incentivized to cover smaller stories in a certain way,

1797
01:44:12,160 --> 01:44:15,240
Speaker 7: to ride the coattails of a national story that shares

1798
01:44:15,280 --> 01:44:19,600
Speaker 7: a few similar details, or national news outlets fishing for

1799
01:44:19,640 --> 01:44:23,600
Speaker 7: clicks may themselves cover what would typically only be a

1800
01:44:23,680 --> 01:44:27,479
Speaker 7: local story if it relates to a currently viral topic.

1801
01:44:28,240 --> 01:44:30,479
Speaker 7: A post on X the Everything app with one point

1802
01:44:30,520 --> 01:44:34,759
Speaker 7: four million quote unquote views and sixty seven thousand likes

1803
01:44:35,240 --> 01:44:38,719
Speaker 7: read quote, We're up to six warehouses set on fire

1804
01:44:38,840 --> 01:44:41,400
Speaker 7: now across the country, and I feel like it's being

1805
01:44:41,439 --> 01:44:46,719
Speaker 7: severely underreported un quote. If anything, these fires are being

1806
01:44:47,080 --> 01:44:52,520
Speaker 7: over reported. Another example of selective reporting is aviation accidents,

1807
01:44:53,000 --> 01:44:57,000
Speaker 7: where in the weeks after a high profile commercial airline crash,

1808
01:44:57,200 --> 01:45:00,400
Speaker 7: local news reports will spread around social media about even

1809
01:45:00,439 --> 01:45:04,439
Speaker 7: more plane crashes, even if these are mostly small private

1810
01:45:04,439 --> 01:45:08,679
Speaker 7: planes which get into accidents semi regularly Allah Harrison Ford,

1811
01:45:09,360 --> 01:45:12,519
Speaker 7: or minor runway incidents that usually don't make the news.

1812
01:45:13,320 --> 01:45:16,400
Speaker 7: A twenty twenty five poll from Data for Progress showed

1813
01:45:16,640 --> 01:45:20,519
Speaker 7: seventy two percent of likely voters believed plane crashes were

1814
01:45:20,520 --> 01:45:25,559
Speaker 7: becoming more frequent. A CNN report analyzing National Transportation Safety

1815
01:45:25,560 --> 01:45:28,000
Speaker 7: Board data from January twenty twenty four to March twenty

1816
01:45:28,000 --> 01:45:31,639
Speaker 7: twenty five found that out of one thousand, two hundred

1817
01:45:31,680 --> 01:45:37,200
Speaker 7: and eight flight safety incidents, only sixty incidents involved commercial carriers.

1818
01:45:37,640 --> 01:45:42,320
Speaker 7: Some of these incidents included turbulence or incursions that's unauthorized aircraft,

1819
01:45:42,400 --> 01:45:45,719
Speaker 7: vehicles or pedestrians on the runway. Half of these sixty

1820
01:45:45,720 --> 01:45:50,560
Speaker 7: incidents resulted in injuries, and two involved fatalities, the helicopter

1821
01:45:50,600 --> 01:45:53,880
Speaker 7: collision in Washington, d c. And a plane crash in Alaska.

1822
01:45:54,439 --> 01:45:59,200
Speaker 7: While those fatal tragedies and other high profile incidents like

1823
01:45:59,240 --> 01:46:02,200
Speaker 7: the runway flip in Toronto and the door flying off

1824
01:46:02,240 --> 01:46:05,160
Speaker 7: an Alaska Airlines plane mid flight, have sewed fear in

1825
01:46:05,200 --> 01:46:10,320
Speaker 7: the general public, Statistically, air travel is not getting more dangerous.

1826
01:46:10,880 --> 01:46:14,439
Speaker 7: The number of yearly safety incidents have remained mostly steady

1827
01:46:14,520 --> 01:46:17,720
Speaker 7: the past decade and only dropped around the pandemic due

1828
01:46:17,720 --> 01:46:21,400
Speaker 7: to a decrease in total air travel. In fact, on average,

1829
01:46:21,680 --> 01:46:26,240
Speaker 7: flying has only gotten safer, even including private and recreational flights.

1830
01:46:26,479 --> 01:46:29,840
Speaker 7: The average number of annual deadly incidents has fallen by

1831
01:46:29,880 --> 01:46:33,519
Speaker 7: more than half since two thousand, excluding nine to eleven.

1832
01:46:34,240 --> 01:46:37,240
Speaker 7: Despite viral news clips of near misses on the runway

1833
01:46:37,280 --> 01:46:41,400
Speaker 7: and an air traffic controller shortage, those runway incursions have

1834
01:46:41,520 --> 01:46:45,599
Speaker 7: also steadily dropped in recent years. But such data can

1835
01:46:45,640 --> 01:46:48,200
Speaker 7: be heard to stomach if in the days after a

1836
01:46:48,280 --> 01:46:52,559
Speaker 7: high profile aviation incident, you keep seeing more reports about

1837
01:46:52,600 --> 01:46:55,880
Speaker 7: plane crashes all across the country, but that itself is

1838
01:46:56,080 --> 01:47:00,599
Speaker 7: selective reporting. On average three to four planes crash every day,

1839
01:47:00,800 --> 01:47:05,000
Speaker 7: and these are typically small private planes, not commercial airliners,

1840
01:47:05,400 --> 01:47:09,880
Speaker 7: and typically a small Cessna crashing in Kentucky doesn't make

1841
01:47:10,000 --> 01:47:14,200
Speaker 7: national news. The same thing is happening with these warehouse fires.

1842
01:47:14,920 --> 01:47:19,560
Speaker 7: Lefty TikTok influencers and many others participating in this warehouse

1843
01:47:19,560 --> 01:47:23,479
Speaker 7: fire meme are ascribing the motive of one person onto

1844
01:47:23,560 --> 01:47:27,320
Speaker 7: a collection of unrelated incidents, trying to create a pattern

1845
01:47:27,720 --> 01:47:29,599
Speaker 7: when there probably isn't.

1846
01:47:29,640 --> 01:47:32,720
Speaker 8: One saw that this one guy said that he did

1847
01:47:32,760 --> 01:47:36,840
Speaker 8: it because of his anger towards capitalism. And I don't

1848
01:47:36,880 --> 01:47:39,040
Speaker 8: know if that was the original toilet paper guy or

1849
01:47:39,080 --> 01:47:42,280
Speaker 8: like another one of these warehouse fires, but to each

1850
01:47:42,320 --> 01:47:45,759
Speaker 8: and every one of them, period, keep it up again.

1851
01:47:45,880 --> 01:47:48,479
Speaker 8: Out of all the incidents I mentioned, the only two

1852
01:47:48,600 --> 01:47:51,880
Speaker 8: we know were intentional was the toilet paper warehouse and

1853
01:47:51,960 --> 01:47:55,120
Speaker 8: the Ontario mall, And the only one we have a

1854
01:47:55,120 --> 01:48:00,639
Speaker 8: suspected motive for is the toilet paper warehouse. An Emerson

1855
01:48:00,720 --> 01:48:03,919
Speaker 8: College poll found that forty one percent of young voters

1856
01:48:04,360 --> 01:48:08,000
Speaker 8: thought the actions of the United Healthcare assassin were acceptable.

1857
01:48:08,479 --> 01:48:12,360
Speaker 8: Another nineteen percent said that they were neutral on the question.

1858
01:48:13,160 --> 01:48:17,360
Speaker 8: Luigi Mangioni. Memes and reactions to this toilet paper fire

1859
01:48:18,080 --> 01:48:22,360
Speaker 8: do demonstrate a form of class consciousness. This same week,

1860
01:48:22,439 --> 01:48:25,360
Speaker 8: people have cheered the attacks on the home of open

1861
01:48:25,439 --> 01:48:29,760
Speaker 8: Ai CEO Sam Altman. Even if influencers are just trying

1862
01:48:29,760 --> 01:48:33,000
Speaker 8: to make a profit, there is an active willingness among

1863
01:48:33,040 --> 01:48:36,960
Speaker 8: the consumers sharing memes and this living wage warehouse fire

1864
01:48:37,040 --> 01:48:42,040
Speaker 8: content to rally behind such action. The working conditions at

1865
01:48:42,080 --> 01:48:46,320
Speaker 8: these warehouses can be inhumane. Just last week, a forty

1866
01:48:46,320 --> 01:48:49,519
Speaker 8: seven year old worker at an Amazon warehouse in Troutdale, Oregon,

1867
01:48:49,960 --> 01:48:54,880
Speaker 8: collapsed and died. Supervisors prevented someone with CPR training to

1868
01:48:55,000 --> 01:48:59,679
Speaker 8: assist with chest compressions and instructed employees to continue work

1869
01:48:59,680 --> 01:49:03,719
Speaker 8: as usual as the body laid still on the floor.

1870
01:49:04,200 --> 01:49:07,799
Speaker 8: Oregon Osha has said the death was not work related.

1871
01:49:08,720 --> 01:49:12,760
Speaker 8: In a catastrophic vibe shift, Let's go back to our

1872
01:49:13,040 --> 01:49:18,479
Speaker 8: left wing TikTok influencer for his analysis. I really hope

1873
01:49:19,000 --> 01:49:23,880
Speaker 8: this is a sign of of what we all hope

1874
01:49:23,920 --> 01:49:26,120
Speaker 8: it to sign up. I can't be the only one

1875
01:49:26,160 --> 01:49:29,400
Speaker 8: who has felt like the tides are turning, the tables

1876
01:49:29,400 --> 01:49:32,320
Speaker 8: are turning, the winds are shifting. It really feels like

1877
01:49:32,400 --> 01:49:36,439
Speaker 8: there's actual movement being made in just the last few days,

1878
01:49:36,760 --> 01:49:40,960
Speaker 8: and now all these warehouse fires, which sure could be

1879
01:49:41,000 --> 01:49:43,439
Speaker 8: a coincidence, but I don't think so, at least I

1880
01:49:43,439 --> 01:49:43,800
Speaker 8: hope not.

1881
01:49:44,040 --> 01:49:45,479
Speaker 2: But what do you guys think?

1882
01:49:45,800 --> 01:49:46,120
Speaker 3: Come up?

1883
01:49:46,120 --> 01:49:49,600
Speaker 8: Blow and if this really is truly the beginning of

1884
01:49:50,320 --> 01:49:53,000
Speaker 8: it all ending, give me a follow for more like this?

1885
01:49:54,200 --> 01:49:54,400
Speaker 6: Huh?

1886
01:49:55,400 --> 01:49:57,960
Speaker 7: Everyone knows the most important thing to do when the

1887
01:49:58,000 --> 01:50:02,479
Speaker 7: revolution starts is to get give me a follow. Speaking of,

1888
01:50:02,760 --> 01:50:05,320
Speaker 7: there is just two days left of webby voting for

1889
01:50:05,520 --> 01:50:08,760
Speaker 7: it could happen here behind the bastards and migrating to

1890
01:50:08,880 --> 01:50:12,559
Speaker 7: America and we may need a supermajority to beat the

1891
01:50:12,720 --> 01:50:16,920
Speaker 7: ms NOW filibuster, So go make your voices heard before

1892
01:50:17,160 --> 01:50:21,960
Speaker 7: voting ends on April sixteenth. That does it for me today,

1893
01:50:22,080 --> 01:50:37,560
Speaker 7: at it could happen here. See you on the other side.

1894
01:50:38,360 --> 01:50:40,080
Speaker 5: It's been more than a month since the US in

1895
01:50:40,160 --> 01:50:43,240
Speaker 5: Israel began raining down bombs in it Run. We've covered

1896
01:50:43,280 --> 01:50:46,240
Speaker 5: the weekly developments every week on Executive Disorder, but I

1897
01:50:46,320 --> 01:50:48,480
Speaker 5: decided that it was high time made a full episode

1898
01:50:48,680 --> 01:50:51,280
Speaker 5: to get people up to speed with the USA's latest aggression,

1899
01:50:51,760 --> 01:50:54,320
Speaker 5: the IDF opening up another front, and it's multifront war

1900
01:50:54,320 --> 01:50:57,320
Speaker 5: against the people of the Middle East. Normally, one would

1901
01:50:57,360 --> 01:50:59,720
Speaker 5: expect a major war with a major power like this

1902
01:51:00,200 --> 01:51:04,000
Speaker 5: fundamentally destabilized the region and ground world trade to a halt,

1903
01:51:04,360 --> 01:51:08,120
Speaker 5: caused massive inflation, to have some kind of very clearly

1904
01:51:08,160 --> 01:51:11,200
Speaker 5: defined set of goals. That is not the case here.

1905
01:51:12,040 --> 01:51:14,840
Speaker 5: We have seen various justifications, but the most common one

1906
01:51:14,880 --> 01:51:17,599
Speaker 5: seems to be that Iran is just weeks from creating

1907
01:51:17,640 --> 01:51:22,160
Speaker 5: a nuclear bomb. This is a claim that specifically Benjamin

1908
01:51:22,240 --> 01:51:25,040
Speaker 5: Nette Yahoo has been making for almost the entire time

1909
01:51:25,080 --> 01:51:27,920
Speaker 5: I have been alive. Here he is saying something similar

1910
01:51:27,920 --> 01:51:29,280
Speaker 5: a decade ago.

1911
01:51:29,000 --> 01:51:33,280
Speaker 10: The foremost sponsor of global terrorism could be weeks away

1912
01:51:34,080 --> 01:51:38,120
Speaker 10: from having enough and rich uranium for an entire arsenal

1913
01:51:38,120 --> 01:51:39,200
Speaker 10: of nuclear weapons.

1914
01:51:40,000 --> 01:51:42,960
Speaker 5: His claim was fanciful then, and it remains even more

1915
01:51:43,000 --> 01:51:46,200
Speaker 5: so now after twenty twenty five to Operation Midnight Hammer

1916
01:51:46,520 --> 01:51:50,599
Speaker 5: saw the USA and Israel attempt to bomb nuclear facilities. Indeed,

1917
01:51:50,600 --> 01:51:53,439
Speaker 5: the White House itself publishes statement on the twenty fifth

1918
01:51:53,439 --> 01:51:56,880
Speaker 5: of June following Operation Midnight Hammer, in which they quoted

1919
01:51:56,880 --> 01:52:00,680
Speaker 5: the Israel Atomic Energy Commission saying, quote, we assessed that

1920
01:52:00,760 --> 01:52:03,880
Speaker 5: the American strikes and around nuclear facilities, combined with the

1921
01:52:03,960 --> 01:52:07,520
Speaker 5: Israeli strikes on other elements of Iran's military nuclear program,

1922
01:52:07,720 --> 01:52:10,720
Speaker 5: has set back Iran's ability to develop nuclear weapons by

1923
01:52:10,800 --> 01:52:15,080
Speaker 5: many years. The achievement can continue indefinitely if Iran does

1924
01:52:15,120 --> 01:52:18,360
Speaker 5: not get access to nuclear material. It also include a

1925
01:52:18,439 --> 01:52:23,160
Speaker 5: quotation from Pete Hegseth, Secretary of Defense, saying quote, based

1926
01:52:23,200 --> 01:52:26,240
Speaker 5: on everything we have seen, and I've seen it all,

1927
01:52:26,600 --> 01:52:30,679
Speaker 5: our bombing campaign abliterated Iran's ability to create nuclear weapons

1928
01:52:31,240 --> 01:52:34,760
Speaker 5: that was less than a year ago. It seems unlikely

1929
01:52:34,800 --> 01:52:38,320
Speaker 5: that they destroyed much or any of the uranium that

1930
01:52:38,439 --> 01:52:41,479
Speaker 5: was stockpiled, but they certainly would have delayed plans to

1931
01:52:41,640 --> 01:52:45,720
Speaker 5: enrich that uranium or to build into a bond. Nonetheless,

1932
01:52:45,840 --> 01:52:48,160
Speaker 5: on the twenty eighth of February this year, a massive

1933
01:52:48,160 --> 01:52:51,360
Speaker 5: campaign of air strikes, high mars beraches, and ballistic misstile

1934
01:52:51,360 --> 01:52:55,559
Speaker 5: attacks on Iran began under the code name Operation Epic Fury.

1935
01:52:56,439 --> 01:52:59,240
Speaker 5: The acronym OEF will be familiar to many as the

1936
01:52:59,280 --> 01:53:01,200
Speaker 5: same one used by the USA for more than a

1937
01:53:01,240 --> 01:53:03,400
Speaker 5: decade of war in Afghanistan and other parts of the

1938
01:53:03,439 --> 01:53:06,599
Speaker 5: world during what it called the Global War on Terror.

1939
01:53:07,560 --> 01:53:10,000
Speaker 5: On the day I'm writing this, it's exactly twenty three

1940
01:53:10,080 --> 01:53:12,920
Speaker 5: years since United States marines tore down the statue of

1941
01:53:12,920 --> 01:53:16,320
Speaker 5: Saddam Hussein that stood outside the seventeenth of Ramada Mosque

1942
01:53:16,360 --> 01:53:20,080
Speaker 5: in Ferdo Square in Baghdad, removed his regime from power.

1943
01:53:20,880 --> 01:53:24,040
Speaker 5: Since then, for my entire adult life and much of

1944
01:53:24,080 --> 01:53:27,000
Speaker 5: my childhood, the USA has been dropping bombs on the

1945
01:53:27,000 --> 01:53:30,600
Speaker 5: Middle East. This month, the temper and ferocity of the

1946
01:53:30,640 --> 01:53:33,320
Speaker 5: aerial bombardment took a step up to a tempo we

1947
01:53:33,360 --> 01:53:36,200
Speaker 5: haven't seen since perhaps the peak of the Coalition war

1948
01:53:36,200 --> 01:53:39,240
Speaker 5: against the Islamic State, or perhaps even the shokuan Ow

1949
01:53:39,280 --> 01:53:42,640
Speaker 5: bombing campaign. Of March two thousand and three, and I

1950
01:53:42,680 --> 01:53:45,280
Speaker 5: want to go back to that campaign to explain exactly

1951
01:53:45,280 --> 01:53:48,240
Speaker 5: how we got to this one. The shakan Or campaign

1952
01:53:48,320 --> 01:53:51,000
Speaker 5: was based on a doctrine called rapid dominance that sought

1953
01:53:51,040 --> 01:53:54,679
Speaker 5: to establish a post Cold War military ethos United States.

1954
01:53:55,200 --> 01:53:58,680
Speaker 5: The theorist behind it, named Alman and Wade, explicitly outlined

1955
01:53:58,680 --> 01:54:01,800
Speaker 5: that to work, the shock and awe bombing campaign had

1956
01:54:01,840 --> 01:54:04,240
Speaker 5: to achieve a level of national shock like that of

1957
01:54:04,320 --> 01:54:07,280
Speaker 5: the dropping of the atomic bombs on Japan, and that

1958
01:54:07,400 --> 01:54:11,640
Speaker 5: power and other civilian infrastructure might well be targeted. In

1959
01:54:11,680 --> 01:54:14,639
Speaker 5: an interview in February two thousand and three, Olmand said, quote,

1960
01:54:15,080 --> 01:54:16,960
Speaker 5: what we want to do is create in the mind

1961
01:54:17,040 --> 01:54:20,080
Speaker 5: of the Iraqi leadership and their soldiers this shock and

1962
01:54:20,160 --> 01:54:24,520
Speaker 5: owe so they're intimidated, made to feel so impotent, so helpless,

1963
01:54:25,000 --> 01:54:27,240
Speaker 5: that they have no choice but to do what we

1964
01:54:27,320 --> 01:54:30,080
Speaker 5: want them to do. So the smartest thing to say

1965
01:54:30,280 --> 01:54:34,360
Speaker 5: is this is hopeless. We quit. The US attempted to

1966
01:54:34,400 --> 01:54:37,200
Speaker 5: pummel their adversary so hard in two thousand and three

1967
01:54:37,240 --> 01:54:39,640
Speaker 5: that it would demoralized troops and lead to a rapid

1968
01:54:39,720 --> 01:54:44,120
Speaker 5: victory through the use and display of overwhelming force. In

1969
01:54:44,160 --> 01:54:47,320
Speaker 5: Iraq twenty three years ago. It sort of worked. The

1970
01:54:47,400 --> 01:54:50,240
Speaker 5: regime crumbled in less than a month, the USA got

1971
01:54:50,240 --> 01:54:53,280
Speaker 5: its quote unquote victory, and by the first of May

1972
01:54:53,320 --> 01:54:55,560
Speaker 5: of that year, George W. Bush had landed on the

1973
01:54:55,640 --> 01:54:59,040
Speaker 5: USSA Abraham Lincoln off San Diego and given a speech

1974
01:54:59,040 --> 01:55:03,280
Speaker 5: in front of a large that read mission accomplished. Twenty

1975
01:55:03,320 --> 01:55:06,200
Speaker 5: three years later, the Lincoln is in the Middle East

1976
01:55:06,560 --> 01:55:10,400
Speaker 5: and bombs are once again raining down on Iran and Iraq,

1977
01:55:10,960 --> 01:55:14,760
Speaker 5: while one way drones and missiles Iran slam into targets

1978
01:55:14,800 --> 01:55:18,800
Speaker 5: all over the region. In Iraq, twenty three years later,

1979
01:55:19,120 --> 01:55:22,080
Speaker 5: the United States embassy is once again being attacked, the

1980
01:55:22,160 --> 01:55:25,440
Speaker 5: US journalist was kidnapped, and the State Department it's telling

1981
01:55:25,480 --> 01:55:29,600
Speaker 5: citizens to avoid the region. The US bombing campaign in

1982
01:55:29,640 --> 01:55:32,280
Speaker 5: Iran this year dwarfs the two thousand and three Shock

1983
01:55:32,320 --> 01:55:35,840
Speaker 5: and All campaign, with the first day of Operation Epic

1984
01:55:35,920 --> 01:55:38,440
Speaker 5: Fury being almost twice the scale of the two thousand

1985
01:55:38,480 --> 01:55:42,240
Speaker 5: and three bombardment. However, they do have several things in common,

1986
01:55:43,040 --> 01:55:46,000
Speaker 5: Just like the bombardment of Iraq. Even twenty three years later,

1987
01:55:46,400 --> 01:55:48,840
Speaker 5: the US and Israeli air war showed us that there

1988
01:55:48,880 --> 01:55:51,280
Speaker 5: is no such thing as a precision bombing campaign on

1989
01:55:51,320 --> 01:55:54,240
Speaker 5: this scale. On the very first day of the war,

1990
01:55:54,520 --> 01:55:57,640
Speaker 5: the twenty eighth of February twenty twenty six, a missile

1991
01:55:57,760 --> 01:56:01,480
Speaker 5: slammed into a girls elementary school in Mina, then another,

1992
01:56:02,440 --> 01:56:05,640
Speaker 5: and then another. When the dust settled, more than one

1993
01:56:05,680 --> 01:56:09,760
Speaker 5: hundred and seventy five people have been killed, mostly schoolgirls

1994
01:56:09,960 --> 01:56:13,760
Speaker 5: between the age of seven and twelve years old. The

1995
01:56:13,800 --> 01:56:16,640
Speaker 5: school was located near an Iranian Revolutionary Guard base, but

1996
01:56:16,680 --> 01:56:18,400
Speaker 5: the school building itself had not been part of a

1997
01:56:18,400 --> 01:56:22,240
Speaker 5: military facility for a decade. And yet, despite targeting technology

1998
01:56:22,240 --> 01:56:26,280
Speaker 5: that allowed three missiles to scream across a continent hit

1999
01:56:26,320 --> 01:56:30,120
Speaker 5: a relatively small target in quick succession, Apparently the US

2000
01:56:30,160 --> 01:56:32,280
Speaker 5: military had not been able to ascertain, or perhaps did

2001
01:56:32,280 --> 01:56:34,280
Speaker 5: not care to ascertain, that the result of their strike

2002
01:56:34,720 --> 01:56:37,320
Speaker 5: was the death of as many as one hundred school children.

2003
01:56:38,320 --> 01:56:40,720
Speaker 5: The fact that I am reporting this forty odd days

2004
01:56:40,760 --> 01:56:43,880
Speaker 5: into the war suggests that despite an even larger scale

2005
01:56:43,880 --> 01:56:47,080
Speaker 5: campaign than the USA deployed in two thousand and three,

2006
01:56:47,720 --> 01:56:50,960
Speaker 5: despite the killing of little girls, the Iranian state has

2007
01:56:51,000 --> 01:56:53,760
Speaker 5: not said this is hopeless. We quit as Almond Hoby

2008
01:56:53,840 --> 01:56:58,200
Speaker 5: might around. Supreme leader Ali Hamani was assassinated in initial attacks.

2009
01:56:58,840 --> 01:57:02,080
Speaker 5: The power has since passed on to his son. Iran

2010
01:57:02,160 --> 01:57:05,160
Speaker 5: remains very much in the fight, despite the massive display

2011
01:57:05,200 --> 01:57:08,560
Speaker 5: of force by the US and Israel. Instead of quitting

2012
01:57:08,560 --> 01:57:11,400
Speaker 5: and giving up, they have been sending ballistic missiles and

2013
01:57:11,440 --> 01:57:14,400
Speaker 5: one way drones into targets throughout the Gulf States, Israel,

2014
01:57:14,600 --> 01:57:17,960
Speaker 5: and southern Kurdistan. This is in part because the United

2015
01:57:18,000 --> 01:57:20,760
Speaker 5: States and Israel had no clear shared plan for this war.

2016
01:57:21,400 --> 01:57:23,440
Speaker 5: In two thousand and three, the US aimed to remove

2017
01:57:23,440 --> 01:57:26,760
Speaker 5: Sada Pasan, and it did that. It made a massive

2018
01:57:26,760 --> 01:57:29,040
Speaker 5: cock up of everything it did after that. But this

2019
01:57:29,160 --> 01:57:32,120
Speaker 5: time we have two belligerent nations with very distinct goals

2020
01:57:32,480 --> 01:57:36,600
Speaker 5: who share a common interest in bombing the people of Iran. Israel,

2021
01:57:36,640 --> 01:57:38,920
Speaker 5: which by some accounts hit more targets in the USA

2022
01:57:38,960 --> 01:57:41,600
Speaker 5: early on in the war, is fighting to totally cripple

2023
01:57:41,600 --> 01:57:43,920
Speaker 5: the Iranian state in a no holds barred, no laws

2024
01:57:43,960 --> 01:57:47,160
Speaker 5: of war respected, campaign that has seen it bomb factories,

2025
01:57:47,360 --> 01:57:51,760
Speaker 5: oil infrastructure, and, most horrifically of all, desalination plants. The

2026
01:57:51,840 --> 01:57:54,800
Speaker 5: goal for Israel is to make it impossible for Iran

2027
01:57:54,840 --> 01:57:58,000
Speaker 5: to recover. It seems to leave the region mired in

2028
01:57:58,040 --> 01:58:01,920
Speaker 5: poverty and resource constraint and make sure that no Iranian state,

2029
01:58:02,000 --> 01:58:04,120
Speaker 5: be it this one or a different one, can ever

2030
01:58:04,160 --> 01:58:07,440
Speaker 5: be a threat to Israel. Again, it has assassinated many

2031
01:58:07,440 --> 01:58:09,680
Speaker 5: of the figures who have the ability to negotiate for peace,

2032
01:58:10,120 --> 01:58:11,680
Speaker 5: and the recent c use fire seems to have been

2033
01:58:11,720 --> 01:58:14,360
Speaker 5: something that Israel does not feel itself to be beholden to.

2034
01:58:15,560 --> 01:58:17,600
Speaker 5: For the US, the goal seems to be to use

2035
01:58:17,600 --> 01:58:20,600
Speaker 5: something similar to shock and or to force Iran into

2036
01:58:20,600 --> 01:58:23,920
Speaker 5: conceding its position and allowing the USA some access to

2037
01:58:23,960 --> 01:58:28,280
Speaker 5: its significant petrochemical resources. Perhaps emboldened by its success in Venezuela,

2038
01:58:28,360 --> 01:58:32,360
Speaker 5: the US might be expecting a similar client state relationship here. However,

2039
01:58:32,400 --> 01:58:35,120
Speaker 5: this has not been the outcome. Over the weekend of

2040
01:58:35,160 --> 01:58:38,720
Speaker 5: the eleventh and twelfth of April, JD Vance, Jared Kushner,

2041
01:58:38,760 --> 01:58:41,280
Speaker 5: and Steve Whitcoff flew to Pakistan as part of a

2042
01:58:41,320 --> 01:58:44,360
Speaker 5: Pakistani broke and cease fire to engage in peace talks

2043
01:58:44,360 --> 01:58:47,720
Speaker 5: with Iran. Before these peace talks, we saw both the

2044
01:58:47,840 --> 01:58:51,240
Speaker 5: US in Iran circlating very different bases for negotiation, with

2045
01:58:51,320 --> 01:58:54,160
Speaker 5: Iran demanding tolls for ships passing near its coastline, an

2046
01:58:54,280 --> 01:58:56,800
Speaker 5: end to sanctions, and the removal of US forces from

2047
01:58:56,800 --> 01:58:59,960
Speaker 5: the region. The US demanded an end to the nuclear

2048
01:59:00,120 --> 01:59:03,200
Speaker 5: program in Iran, and at one point the President proposed

2049
01:59:03,240 --> 01:59:05,880
Speaker 5: a joint US Iranian toll on ships passing through the

2050
01:59:05,880 --> 01:59:08,800
Speaker 5: Straight of horm Moos. Straight of horn Moose is one

2051
01:59:08,840 --> 01:59:12,000
Speaker 5: of the areas where there has been significant disagreement, and

2052
01:59:12,360 --> 01:59:14,160
Speaker 5: so I want to explain a little bit about what

2053
01:59:14,200 --> 01:59:16,040
Speaker 5: the Strait of horn Moose is for listeners who are

2054
01:59:16,040 --> 01:59:20,600
Speaker 5: not familiar. Geographically, the strait connects the Persian Golf and

2055
01:59:20,640 --> 01:59:23,840
Speaker 5: the Gulf of Verman, thus the open Ocean. It's just

2056
01:59:23,880 --> 01:59:26,920
Speaker 5: about thirty nine klumeters wide across its narrows point, with

2057
01:59:26,960 --> 01:59:29,160
Speaker 5: about a quarter of the world's liquefied natural gas and

2058
01:59:29,200 --> 01:59:32,920
Speaker 5: seaborne oil passing through the strait. Because of its geographical location,

2059
01:59:33,080 --> 01:59:36,040
Speaker 5: Asia and Europe are especially reliant on these energy products.

2060
01:59:36,360 --> 01:59:38,600
Speaker 5: Many of the Golf states will have no maritime export

2061
01:59:38,640 --> 01:59:41,720
Speaker 5: routes without transitting the street. In response to the United

2062
01:59:41,760 --> 01:59:45,400
Speaker 5: States and Israel's bombing campaign, Iran effectively closed the Straight.

2063
01:59:45,560 --> 01:59:49,600
Speaker 5: So a combination of missile threats, claimed mining, very high

2064
01:59:49,640 --> 01:59:53,520
Speaker 5: frequency radio broadcast warning ships of the two previously mentioned threats,

2065
01:59:53,960 --> 01:59:57,600
Speaker 5: and uncrewed surface vessel attacks that blew up and damaged vessels,

2066
01:59:57,640 --> 02:00:01,160
Speaker 5: including oil tankers in the Persian Gulf. At the time

2067
02:00:01,200 --> 02:00:04,520
Speaker 5: of writing, Iran is threatening ships transiting Distrait, and the

2068
02:00:04,600 --> 02:00:07,560
Speaker 5: US is attempting to blockade all ships that gaim to

2069
02:00:07,600 --> 02:00:10,720
Speaker 5: go to Iran. Iran has previously allowed some ships a

2070
02:00:10,800 --> 02:00:13,120
Speaker 5: right to pass safely if they pay a toll payable

2071
02:00:13,160 --> 02:00:16,000
Speaker 5: encrypto currency or Chinese yuan. Some ships appear to have

2072
02:00:16,040 --> 02:00:19,280
Speaker 5: certainly transited Distrait, but many more have not, and this

2073
02:00:19,360 --> 02:00:24,360
Speaker 5: presents a serious issue for global trade. Luckily, the problems

2074
02:00:24,400 --> 02:00:27,880
Speaker 5: with global trade have not affected our advertisers, so here

2075
02:00:27,880 --> 02:00:30,400
Speaker 5: are some goods and services that will probably cost more

2076
02:00:30,440 --> 02:00:43,080
Speaker 5: than they did a few weeks ago. The United States

2077
02:00:43,080 --> 02:00:45,320
Speaker 5: has a lack of capacity when it comes to mind sweeping.

2078
02:00:45,960 --> 02:00:48,080
Speaker 5: Many of the ships it does have which can do that,

2079
02:00:48,160 --> 02:00:50,160
Speaker 5: are not currently very close to the trade four moves.

2080
02:00:50,840 --> 02:00:53,120
Speaker 5: On the twelfth of April, it did send two destroyers

2081
02:00:53,120 --> 02:00:57,200
Speaker 5: into Distrate normally to begin mind clearing operations, but these

2082
02:00:57,200 --> 02:00:58,840
Speaker 5: aren't really a sort of ships that would do that

2083
02:00:58,920 --> 02:01:00,920
Speaker 5: so much as they would work a lotongside the ships

2084
02:01:00,960 --> 02:01:03,640
Speaker 5: that do that to provide them with security. There is

2085
02:01:03,680 --> 02:01:05,960
Speaker 5: currently a safe lane through the Strait that Iran seems

2086
02:01:05,960 --> 02:01:09,080
Speaker 5: to be sending ships through, but it's a little unclear

2087
02:01:09,120 --> 02:01:11,320
Speaker 5: to what extent, if at all, the strait is mined,

2088
02:01:11,880 --> 02:01:15,720
Speaker 5: and what kind of minds were used. Naval minds can vary.

2089
02:01:15,880 --> 02:01:18,400
Speaker 5: They can be pretty simple contact fuze minds like the

2090
02:01:18,440 --> 02:01:21,120
Speaker 5: ones you might have seen in the Mind Sweeper computer game,

2091
02:01:21,840 --> 02:01:25,520
Speaker 5: or bottom mines triggered by a number of mechanisms. Clearing

2092
02:01:25,520 --> 02:01:28,240
Speaker 5: a body of water this large would take a significant

2093
02:01:28,240 --> 02:01:31,480
Speaker 5: amount of time. Stopping transits through the strait was not

2094
02:01:31,560 --> 02:01:34,920
Speaker 5: Iran's only response to the attacks. They have launched a

2095
02:01:35,080 --> 02:01:38,080
Speaker 5: massive fuselade of one way drones and missiles a targets

2096
02:01:38,080 --> 02:01:41,240
Speaker 5: across the region. Their Shaheed drones are one of the

2097
02:01:41,320 --> 02:01:45,120
Speaker 5: most significant military innovations of the last decade. They're cheap,

2098
02:01:45,800 --> 02:01:49,120
Speaker 5: one way drones that can do tremendous damage at a

2099
02:01:49,240 --> 02:01:51,840
Speaker 5: very low cost. If you've ever heard of Shaheed drone,

2100
02:01:51,840 --> 02:01:53,720
Speaker 5: you won't forget what they sound like. It's like a

2101
02:01:53,800 --> 02:01:57,440
Speaker 5: lornmow flying over you. These drones have been so successful

2102
02:01:57,480 --> 02:01:59,760
Speaker 5: that the US has cloned captured drones to make it

2103
02:01:59,800 --> 02:02:03,080
Speaker 5: so in one wadrones, which it calls Lucas drones, and

2104
02:02:03,120 --> 02:02:06,040
Speaker 5: Iran has licensed production to Russia, which uses them in

2105
02:02:06,080 --> 02:02:09,480
Speaker 5: massive numbers against Ukraine. These drones have provided a cheap

2106
02:02:09,520 --> 02:02:12,800
Speaker 5: and relatively easy to launch platform for Iran strikes, which

2107
02:02:12,800 --> 02:02:17,959
Speaker 5: has focused on US allies Israel, and Bushur Kurdistan. Bashur

2108
02:02:18,360 --> 02:02:22,400
Speaker 5: meaning Southern or Iraqi Kurdistan has taken a particularly heavy toll.

2109
02:02:22,840 --> 02:02:24,640
Speaker 5: Much as this has been due to reporting in the

2110
02:02:24,640 --> 02:02:27,960
Speaker 5: early days of the conflict, which began with notorious fact

2111
02:02:28,000 --> 02:02:32,280
Speaker 5: check Eveder barak Ravid. Much as its reporting heavily implied

2112
02:02:32,440 --> 02:02:35,280
Speaker 5: or outright said that Curdish ground forces were repairing an

2113
02:02:35,320 --> 02:02:39,680
Speaker 5: assault into Iran. Raved's piece, which reported that Trump had

2114
02:02:39,720 --> 02:02:43,560
Speaker 5: spoken to two major Curtist leaders, was particularly shocking because

2115
02:02:43,560 --> 02:02:47,680
Speaker 5: it erroneously conflated Iraqi Curds with Iranian Curds, those from

2116
02:02:47,760 --> 02:02:50,919
Speaker 5: Eastern Kurdistan and Roja lad It's true that the majority

2117
02:02:50,920 --> 02:02:54,320
Speaker 5: of anti regime Kurdish armed groups from Iran retained bases

2118
02:02:54,400 --> 02:02:58,120
Speaker 5: in Iraq, but it's extremely unlikely that the KDP in

2119
02:02:58,160 --> 02:03:01,160
Speaker 5: the p UK, the major actors in Iraqi Kurdistan, will

2120
02:03:01,200 --> 02:03:03,240
Speaker 5: be storming the border into Roju Lat anytime in the

2121
02:03:03,240 --> 02:03:06,200
Speaker 5: near future. However, I have spoken to several of the

2122
02:03:06,280 --> 02:03:09,280
Speaker 5: Roja Lati arm groups who are part of the Alliance

2123
02:03:09,320 --> 02:03:12,800
Speaker 5: of political forces of Iranian Kurdistan. The groups involved in

2124
02:03:12,880 --> 02:03:16,400
Speaker 5: a Democratic Party of Iranian Kurdistan or the PDKI, the

2125
02:03:16,440 --> 02:03:21,880
Speaker 5: Free Life Party of Kurdistan PJAK, the Kurdistan Freedom Party PAK,

2126
02:03:22,560 --> 02:03:25,200
Speaker 5: two of the Komala parties, and the hubbut or the

2127
02:03:25,280 --> 02:03:29,440
Speaker 5: organization of the Iranian Kurdistan Struggle. The alliance predates the

2128
02:03:29,520 --> 02:03:32,920
Speaker 5: United States and Israeli campaign came around earlier this year.

2129
02:03:33,520 --> 02:03:36,440
Speaker 5: Arash Saleh I spoke to him for the PDKI told

2130
02:03:36,480 --> 02:03:39,400
Speaker 5: me quote at this point, the whole coalition is built

2131
02:03:39,440 --> 02:03:42,720
Speaker 5: upon some type of self rule instided Iranian Kurdistan as

2132
02:03:42,720 --> 02:03:45,160
Speaker 5: the main demand for all of them, and that as

2133
02:03:45,160 --> 02:03:48,120
Speaker 5: a main demand for all the Kurdish people in Iranian Kurdistan.

2134
02:03:48,800 --> 02:03:50,560
Speaker 5: This unity of groups is a positive step and it

2135
02:03:50,560 --> 02:03:52,880
Speaker 5: represents a real opportunity for the liberation of the people

2136
02:03:52,920 --> 02:03:55,680
Speaker 5: of Rojaa. But none of these parties are willing to

2137
02:03:55,680 --> 02:03:58,760
Speaker 5: be the spearhead of an American and Israeli offensive without

2138
02:03:58,800 --> 02:04:01,400
Speaker 5: guarantees that they will recive' support for their own goals,

2139
02:04:01,680 --> 02:04:04,280
Speaker 5: which are very different to those of the USA and Israel.

2140
02:04:05,240 --> 02:04:08,360
Speaker 5: In more recent weeks, President Trump has insinuated, and Fox

2141
02:04:08,440 --> 02:04:10,200
Speaker 5: News has claimed that he said this but haven't seen

2142
02:04:10,240 --> 02:04:13,600
Speaker 5: any recording of it, That the United States sent weapons

2143
02:04:13,600 --> 02:04:17,040
Speaker 5: to Iranian protesters through Kurdish groups, but that the Kurdish

2144
02:04:17,080 --> 02:04:19,360
Speaker 5: groups kept them instead of giving them to the protesters.

2145
02:04:20,120 --> 02:04:22,880
Speaker 5: Here's the clip of Trump implying this, and you'll have

2146
02:04:22,920 --> 02:04:26,040
Speaker 5: to forgive me for the gringly awkward light jazz background

2147
02:04:26,160 --> 02:04:26,600
Speaker 5: music here.

2148
02:04:27,080 --> 02:04:29,640
Speaker 11: They don't have guns. You know, we said some guns,

2149
02:04:30,240 --> 02:04:32,920
Speaker 11: but the group that were supposed to give which I said,

2150
02:04:32,920 --> 02:04:35,200
Speaker 11: what happened to my people? I said it. I called

2151
02:04:35,240 --> 02:04:35,879
Speaker 11: it exactly.

2152
02:04:36,680 --> 02:04:38,360
Speaker 4: We sent guns, a lot of guns.

2153
02:04:38,680 --> 02:04:40,520
Speaker 11: They were supposed to go to the people said they

2154
02:04:40,520 --> 02:04:43,040
Speaker 11: could fight back against these lucks. You know what happened.

2155
02:04:43,400 --> 02:04:46,240
Speaker 11: The people that they sent them to kept them because

2156
02:04:46,280 --> 02:04:47,600
Speaker 11: they said, what a beautiful gun.

2157
02:04:47,600 --> 02:04:48,440
Speaker 5: I think I'll keep it.

2158
02:04:49,000 --> 02:04:51,680
Speaker 11: So I'm very upset with a certain group of people,

2159
02:04:51,720 --> 02:04:53,160
Speaker 11: and they're going to pay a big price for that.

2160
02:04:53,800 --> 02:04:57,760
Speaker 11: But the Iranian people who will fight back as soon

2161
02:04:57,760 --> 02:04:59,360
Speaker 11: as they know they're not going to be shot and

2162
02:04:59,400 --> 02:05:01,880
Speaker 11: as soon as they yet weapons.

2163
02:05:02,560 --> 02:05:05,440
Speaker 5: The Kurdish groups I've spoken to have denied this, and

2164
02:05:05,480 --> 02:05:09,920
Speaker 5: it's not really logistically feasible. Hamno knox Bandi, a member

2165
02:05:09,920 --> 02:05:12,320
Speaker 5: of the General Command of the Kurdistan National Army, which

2166
02:05:12,320 --> 02:05:15,720
Speaker 5: is the peshmerger associated with the Kurdistan Freedom Party or PAK,

2167
02:05:16,480 --> 02:05:20,160
Speaker 5: said that quote Donald Trump's message is unclear to us.

2168
02:05:20,640 --> 02:05:23,240
Speaker 5: What is there is that we as our army have

2169
02:05:23,360 --> 02:05:26,160
Speaker 5: in no way received weapons from the US or any

2170
02:05:26,160 --> 02:05:29,680
Speaker 5: other country, not even a single bullet. And the PAK

2171
02:05:29,800 --> 02:05:32,600
Speaker 5: confirmed that statement to me this morning. At the time

2172
02:05:32,960 --> 02:05:36,120
Speaker 5: you're hearing this, that will be yesterday morning. I checked

2173
02:05:36,200 --> 02:05:39,400
Speaker 5: in with them. Then transiting the mountains to that part

2174
02:05:39,440 --> 02:05:42,160
Speaker 5: of Kurdistan and then smuggling weapons all the way to Tehran.

2175
02:05:42,240 --> 02:05:43,720
Speaker 5: It's not what they do and it will be very

2176
02:05:43,720 --> 02:05:46,280
Speaker 5: hard for them to do it. Also, at the time

2177
02:05:46,360 --> 02:05:49,520
Speaker 5: of the large anti regime protesting around in January, we

2178
02:05:49,560 --> 02:05:54,280
Speaker 5: saw groups, notably the PAK the Kurdistan Freedom Party using

2179
02:05:54,320 --> 02:05:57,320
Speaker 5: weapons that really don't appear to be US supplied, like

2180
02:05:57,360 --> 02:06:01,880
Speaker 5: pump act and shotguns. Nonetheless, this rumor, combined with the

2181
02:06:01,920 --> 02:06:04,600
Speaker 5: fact that Trump really did call Iraqi Kurdish leaders at

2182
02:06:04,600 --> 02:06:07,200
Speaker 5: the start of the conflict, presumably to ask for support,

2183
02:06:07,720 --> 02:06:10,200
Speaker 5: has led to a raqs Kurdistan region been targeted a

2184
02:06:10,240 --> 02:06:13,400
Speaker 5: great deal. These drone and rockets rights have not just

2185
02:06:13,480 --> 02:06:16,320
Speaker 5: hit military targets, but also the refugee camps where the

2186
02:06:16,360 --> 02:06:20,360
Speaker 5: families displaced from Rojaalat live, and many other civilian targets

2187
02:06:20,360 --> 02:06:25,200
Speaker 5: in major Kurdish cities. To quote a PDKI a statement quote,

2188
02:06:25,400 --> 02:06:27,240
Speaker 5: since the beginning of the war with the United States

2189
02:06:27,240 --> 02:06:29,720
Speaker 5: in Israel, the Islamic Republic of Ruan has so far

2190
02:06:29,760 --> 02:06:33,960
Speaker 5: targeted the family camps, medical centers, and educational facilities of

2191
02:06:34,000 --> 02:06:37,160
Speaker 5: the Democratic Party of Iranian Kurdistan with more than one

2192
02:06:37,200 --> 02:06:40,680
Speaker 5: hundred and ten missiles and drones. These tags have continued

2193
02:06:40,760 --> 02:06:43,839
Speaker 5: even during the ceasefire between Iran and the United States.

2194
02:06:45,200 --> 02:06:48,200
Speaker 5: But it's not just Iraqi Kurdistan being bombed. In fact,

2195
02:06:48,240 --> 02:06:50,640
Speaker 5: a Rak has a distinction of being the only country

2196
02:06:50,680 --> 02:06:53,560
Speaker 5: bomb by both sides in the conflict. This is in

2197
02:06:53,600 --> 02:06:57,240
Speaker 5: part this is Popular Mobilization Forces, sometimes referred to by

2198
02:06:57,280 --> 02:07:01,360
Speaker 5: the Arabic name hashtal Shabi in Iraq have strong ties

2199
02:07:01,400 --> 02:07:05,200
Speaker 5: to Iran. The Popular Mobilization Forces or PMF if you're

2200
02:07:05,200 --> 02:07:08,120
Speaker 5: not familiar, were formed in twenty fourteen and fought against

2201
02:07:08,200 --> 02:07:11,720
Speaker 5: Islamic State in Iraq, but some factions within the PMF

2202
02:07:11,760 --> 02:07:13,960
Speaker 5: are also now listed to terrorist groups themselves by the

2203
02:07:14,040 --> 02:07:18,040
Speaker 5: United States. I want to resist doing the rather purel

2204
02:07:18,160 --> 02:07:21,480
Speaker 5: Sunni Shia Kurd analysis here because I don't think it

2205
02:07:21,480 --> 02:07:24,320
Speaker 5: explains the whole situation, and it's far too often seized

2206
02:07:24,360 --> 02:07:28,600
Speaker 5: upon by commentators seeking to oversimplify things. Many Kurds are Sunni,

2207
02:07:28,960 --> 02:07:32,640
Speaker 5: for example, but some are Shia, some the Christian or Jewish,

2208
02:07:32,720 --> 02:07:35,800
Speaker 5: or have no religious beliefs. There are other groups in

2209
02:07:35,840 --> 02:07:39,000
Speaker 5: the region who are not Muslim or Christian. I think

2210
02:07:39,000 --> 02:07:43,080
Speaker 5: it's unnecessarily reductionist, but nonetheless it's worth noting that the

2211
02:07:43,120 --> 02:07:45,760
Speaker 5: PMF are mostly Shia, as is the ratiome in Iran.

2212
02:07:46,360 --> 02:07:50,320
Speaker 5: The PMF have been using drones, rockets, and mortars to

2213
02:07:50,320 --> 02:07:52,880
Speaker 5: attack both the US bases and those of the Kurdish

2214
02:07:52,920 --> 02:07:55,360
Speaker 5: pesh Merger, who they see as tied to the US.

2215
02:07:56,240 --> 02:07:59,600
Speaker 5: On the telegram channels, PMF groups have shown successful attanks

2216
02:08:00,160 --> 02:08:03,200
Speaker 5: used to be Camp Victory near the Baghdad airport and

2217
02:08:03,280 --> 02:08:06,880
Speaker 5: against the US embassy facilities. While we can talk to

2218
02:08:06,960 --> 02:08:10,360
Speaker 5: Rogulati groups and see PMF statements on telegram getting information

2219
02:08:10,400 --> 02:08:13,000
Speaker 5: on the conflict from inside Iran, that's not regily propaganda,

2220
02:08:13,040 --> 02:08:16,080
Speaker 5: it's very hard. An Internet blackout by the Iranian government

2221
02:08:16,120 --> 02:08:19,080
Speaker 5: has lasted more than a month. The information that we

2222
02:08:19,120 --> 02:08:22,520
Speaker 5: see coming out of Iran is either state sanctioned or

2223
02:08:22,560 --> 02:08:25,120
Speaker 5: from people going to the border with Iraq to get

2224
02:08:25,120 --> 02:08:28,440
Speaker 5: cell phone signal, or from people using satellite Internet devices

2225
02:08:28,480 --> 02:08:33,160
Speaker 5: like starlings. Iran has been actively hunting people using starlings

2226
02:08:33,200 --> 02:08:36,360
Speaker 5: and further militarizing the Kurdistan region near the Iraqi border

2227
02:08:36,360 --> 02:08:40,160
Speaker 5: where people might get cell phone signal. Zenni Arbazisi and

2228
02:08:40,280 --> 02:08:44,520
Speaker 5: Siavan Amini, a Kurdish couple, were arrested on the seventh

2229
02:08:44,560 --> 02:08:47,200
Speaker 5: of March this year and they have been detained ever

2230
02:08:47,280 --> 02:08:50,919
Speaker 5: since for the crime of using a Starlin. This repressive

2231
02:08:50,920 --> 02:09:05,360
Speaker 5: capability is not unusual or unique Terranian Kurdistan. I think

2232
02:09:05,400 --> 02:09:07,920
Speaker 5: we need to understand the structure of the Iranian state

2233
02:09:08,280 --> 02:09:10,400
Speaker 5: to understand why it will be very hard for the

2234
02:09:10,520 --> 02:09:14,320
Speaker 5: United States to achieve regime change simply with an air campaign.

2235
02:09:14,840 --> 02:09:18,280
Speaker 5: Iran has a conventional army known as the Arteche. It

2236
02:09:18,320 --> 02:09:21,320
Speaker 5: also has the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps, better known by

2237
02:09:21,320 --> 02:09:25,240
Speaker 5: the initials IRGC, which has a specific remit of protecting

2238
02:09:25,280 --> 02:09:29,480
Speaker 5: the Islamic Republic. Within the IRGC, people may have heard

2239
02:09:29,520 --> 02:09:32,720
Speaker 5: of the Kutz Force. The Kutzforce sort of acts like Iran,

2240
02:09:32,840 --> 02:09:36,200
Speaker 5: CIA and Green Berets, combined by assisting other actors, mainly

2241
02:09:36,240 --> 02:09:39,280
Speaker 5: non state actors in the region like Husbolla, for example.

2242
02:09:40,080 --> 02:09:43,120
Speaker 5: Then there's also the Busiege, which is an element of

2243
02:09:43,160 --> 02:09:47,200
Speaker 5: the ILGC but is a paramilitary auxiliary force with as

2244
02:09:47,240 --> 02:09:50,080
Speaker 5: many as half a million members available for immediate call

2245
02:09:50,200 --> 02:09:54,120
Speaker 5: up and many more in reserve. The Busiege are in theory,

2246
02:09:54,160 --> 02:09:57,280
Speaker 5: directly loyal to the Supreme Leader, and they have participated

2247
02:09:57,360 --> 02:10:01,600
Speaker 5: in a significant oppression of the population. Combined, these forces

2248
02:10:01,680 --> 02:10:05,840
Speaker 5: represent a massive apparatus for state violence that is dispersed

2249
02:10:05,840 --> 02:10:09,640
Speaker 5: among the civilian population. Recent reports say they are even

2250
02:10:09,680 --> 02:10:14,040
Speaker 5: garrising schools and other civilian buildings. While the United States may,

2251
02:10:14,080 --> 02:10:18,080
Speaker 5: for example, have destroyed Iran's conventional navy, its big gray

2252
02:10:18,120 --> 02:10:20,800
Speaker 5: boats with the Iranian flag on them, it has not

2253
02:10:20,920 --> 02:10:24,960
Speaker 5: and cannot destroy all the small civilian craft that these

2254
02:10:25,240 --> 02:10:28,920
Speaker 5: groups could easily use to haras shipping or even plant

2255
02:10:28,920 --> 02:10:33,280
Speaker 5: sea mines, nor can destroy the many one way surface

2256
02:10:33,360 --> 02:10:36,680
Speaker 5: drone Iran has along its coastline. If you're not familiar

2257
02:10:36,720 --> 02:10:40,680
Speaker 5: with these, think of a remote control boat that explodes

2258
02:10:40,720 --> 02:10:44,560
Speaker 5: when it hits its target. Israel has killed many ILGC

2259
02:10:44,680 --> 02:10:49,200
Speaker 5: figures but many more LGC units and besiegs remain untouched,

2260
02:10:49,520 --> 02:10:52,480
Speaker 5: are willing to turn their weapons on any potential uprising

2261
02:10:52,520 --> 02:10:55,480
Speaker 5: in the country. With this in mind, let's talk a

2262
02:10:55,520 --> 02:10:58,800
Speaker 5: little bit more about those peace negotiations that happened last

2263
02:10:58,840 --> 02:11:02,640
Speaker 5: weekend in Pakistan, and particularly let's talk about the composition

2264
02:11:02,640 --> 02:11:08,400
Speaker 5: of Iran's delegation. Amongst Iran's negotiators was Mohammad Jaffiri Sahra Rud,

2265
02:11:09,040 --> 02:11:12,160
Speaker 5: who participate in the murder of doctor Abdul Rahman Gaseemlu

2266
02:11:12,560 --> 02:11:18,080
Speaker 5: during negotiations between the PDKI and Iran in nineteen eighty nine.

2267
02:11:18,440 --> 02:11:23,200
Speaker 5: Doctor Gacemlu had been a notable Kurdish leader for some time,

2268
02:11:24,040 --> 02:11:26,400
Speaker 5: was sentenced to death by the Iranian regime and then

2269
02:11:26,600 --> 02:11:29,640
Speaker 5: kill when he came to the negotiating table. In a

2270
02:11:29,680 --> 02:11:33,200
Speaker 5: statement sent to me, the pak said quote the composition

2271
02:11:33,320 --> 02:11:36,200
Speaker 5: of the Iranian delegation, largely made up of military and

2272
02:11:36,240 --> 02:11:39,640
Speaker 5: security figures, clearly indicates that the primary objective was not

2273
02:11:39,680 --> 02:11:43,280
Speaker 5: to advance a genuine diplomatic process, but rather to manage

2274
02:11:43,280 --> 02:11:47,000
Speaker 5: the situation in line with strategic goals Iran seemed to

2275
02:11:47,040 --> 02:11:50,560
Speaker 5: achievely see negotiations as a way to buy time it's

2276
02:11:50,600 --> 02:11:52,640
Speaker 5: been able to dig out many of its missiles which

2277
02:11:52,680 --> 02:11:55,480
Speaker 5: were buried but not destroyed by its strikes, and in

2278
02:11:55,520 --> 02:11:57,960
Speaker 5: this pause it can shore up its pasture against domestic

2279
02:11:58,000 --> 02:12:01,440
Speaker 5: dissenters as well. It does not seem, in short, to

2280
02:12:01,480 --> 02:12:04,080
Speaker 5: be acting in the way the sharkan or doctrine might

2281
02:12:04,080 --> 02:12:07,080
Speaker 5: suggest and hope that it would. Indeed, in recent weeks,

2282
02:12:07,080 --> 02:12:09,160
Speaker 5: it's been able to mobilize civilians to go two power

2283
02:12:09,160 --> 02:12:11,400
Speaker 5: plants and the hope that their presence will prevent bombing

2284
02:12:11,440 --> 02:12:15,040
Speaker 5: of those facilities. Despite this, and despite it being a

2285
02:12:15,120 --> 02:12:18,480
Speaker 5: violation of various international treaties, some of which is right

2286
02:12:18,600 --> 02:12:21,080
Speaker 5: is not signed up to, Israel has continued to hit

2287
02:12:21,120 --> 02:12:25,280
Speaker 5: power plants, oil infrastructure, and bridges, despite the civilian costs.

2288
02:12:26,240 --> 02:12:29,320
Speaker 5: It certainly seems that after a weekend of negotiating face

2289
02:12:29,320 --> 02:12:32,320
Speaker 5: to face in Pakistan, the United States was not able

2290
02:12:32,360 --> 02:12:34,640
Speaker 5: to get what it wanted out of the negotiations. They

2291
02:12:34,680 --> 02:12:37,680
Speaker 5: have chosen not to accept our terms. Vice President J. D.

2292
02:12:37,800 --> 02:12:40,440
Speaker 5: Van said, here's him talking about the negotiations at a

2293
02:12:40,440 --> 02:12:42,960
Speaker 5: press conference on Sunday morning local time.

2294
02:12:43,600 --> 02:12:45,640
Speaker 12: But the simple fact is that we need to see

2295
02:12:45,800 --> 02:12:50,160
Speaker 12: an affirmative commitment that they will not seek a nuclear weapon,

2296
02:12:50,440 --> 02:12:52,440
Speaker 12: and they will not seek the tools that would enable

2297
02:12:52,480 --> 02:12:55,280
Speaker 12: them to quickly achieve a nuclear weapon. That is the

2298
02:12:55,360 --> 02:12:57,480
Speaker 12: core goal of the President of the United States, and

2299
02:12:57,520 --> 02:13:00,760
Speaker 12: that's what we've tried to achieve through these negotiations. Again,

2300
02:13:00,960 --> 02:13:05,000
Speaker 12: their nuclear programs, such as it is, the enrichment facilities

2301
02:13:05,040 --> 02:13:09,440
Speaker 12: that they had before, they've been destroyed. But the civil

2302
02:13:09,520 --> 02:13:13,000
Speaker 12: question is, do we see a fundamental commitment of will

2303
02:13:13,480 --> 02:13:16,600
Speaker 12: for the Iranians not to develop a nuclear weapon, not

2304
02:13:16,680 --> 02:13:18,560
Speaker 12: just now, not just two years from now, but for

2305
02:13:18,600 --> 02:13:20,120
Speaker 12: the long term. We haven't seen that yet.

2306
02:13:20,120 --> 02:13:21,720
Speaker 3: We hope that we will.

2307
02:13:22,000 --> 02:13:25,520
Speaker 5: Trump, however, has been talking about a more diverse range

2308
02:13:25,560 --> 02:13:29,000
Speaker 5: of goals than Balancelest's here talking about ending quote forty

2309
02:13:29,040 --> 02:13:32,360
Speaker 5: seven years of extortion, corruption, and death. In one truth,

2310
02:13:32,920 --> 02:13:35,920
Speaker 5: this suggests regime change, which Trump then went on to

2311
02:13:36,000 --> 02:13:41,200
Speaker 5: falsely claim he has already achieved, saying in a truth quote, However,

2312
02:13:41,680 --> 02:13:45,000
Speaker 5: now that we have complete and total regime change, where different,

2313
02:13:45,080 --> 02:13:50,240
Speaker 5: smarter and less radicalized minds prevail, maybe something revolutionarily wonderful

2314
02:13:50,240 --> 02:13:54,200
Speaker 5: can happen. Who knows. This was incidentally in the very

2315
02:13:54,280 --> 02:13:58,080
Speaker 5: same truth in which Trump said, quote, A whole civilization

2316
02:13:58,120 --> 02:14:00,960
Speaker 5: will die tonight, never to be brought back again. I

2317
02:14:01,000 --> 02:14:03,760
Speaker 5: don't want that to happen, but it probably will. This

2318
02:14:03,960 --> 02:14:06,160
Speaker 5: was part of a threat which he hoped to result

2319
02:14:06,160 --> 02:14:09,240
Speaker 5: in Iran reopening the Strait of Horn News. Trump also

2320
02:14:09,320 --> 02:14:13,320
Speaker 5: posted on Easter Sunday, quote, open the fucking strait, you

2321
02:14:13,440 --> 02:14:17,160
Speaker 5: crazy bastards, or you'll be living in hell. Obviously, this

2322
02:14:17,240 --> 02:14:20,320
Speaker 5: statement seems odds with any idea of liberating the Iranian people,

2323
02:14:20,360 --> 02:14:22,480
Speaker 5: and when it comes from the guy with the nuclear arsenal,

2324
02:14:22,640 --> 02:14:26,320
Speaker 5: it sounds like a threat of genocide. While Trump has

2325
02:14:26,320 --> 02:14:28,880
Speaker 5: not launched any nuclear weapons in Iran, this does not

2326
02:14:29,000 --> 02:14:32,080
Speaker 5: mean that the death toll has not been heavy. According

2327
02:14:32,120 --> 02:14:35,360
Speaker 5: to a report by human rights organization Hengor, at least

2328
02:14:35,360 --> 02:14:38,480
Speaker 5: seven six hundred and fifty people have been killed during

2329
02:14:38,520 --> 02:14:42,920
Speaker 5: the US and Israeli bombing, including one thousand and thirty civilians.

2330
02:14:43,720 --> 02:14:47,520
Speaker 5: Iran has also continued attacking its own population. Despite the

2331
02:14:47,560 --> 02:14:50,800
Speaker 5: massive scale of the killing, Iran has not ceased, for example,

2332
02:14:50,880 --> 02:14:54,800
Speaker 5: executing political prisoners. Hengor estimates that at least one hundred

2333
02:14:54,840 --> 02:14:57,520
Speaker 5: and sixty political prisoners have been killed in the first

2334
02:14:57,600 --> 02:15:00,720
Speaker 5: quarter of this year. United States groups have been killed

2335
02:15:00,720 --> 02:15:04,000
Speaker 5: as well, thirteen of them according to the Military Times,

2336
02:15:04,560 --> 02:15:08,360
Speaker 5: hundreds more have been wounded. Survivors of one deadly drone

2337
02:15:08,360 --> 02:15:11,280
Speaker 5: attack on a US facility in q Eight have disputed

2338
02:15:11,320 --> 02:15:14,520
Speaker 5: official accounts of the attack, saying their facility did have

2339
02:15:14,640 --> 02:15:18,680
Speaker 5: vertical blast barriers, but no overhead protection against the kind

2340
02:15:18,680 --> 02:15:21,040
Speaker 5: of drones that killed six of their colleagues, and the

2341
02:15:21,120 --> 02:15:23,440
Speaker 5: kind of drones they could reasonably expect to be attacked by,

2342
02:15:23,480 --> 02:15:26,040
Speaker 5: given that Iran has been using these very same drones

2343
02:15:26,440 --> 02:15:28,720
Speaker 5: for a long time in Syria and other parts of

2344
02:15:28,720 --> 02:15:31,680
Speaker 5: the Middle East. To quote CBS who interviewed one of

2345
02:15:31,680 --> 02:15:34,720
Speaker 5: them on condition of anonymity, quote, painting a picture that

2346
02:15:34,760 --> 02:15:37,880
Speaker 5: one squeaked through is a falsehood. I want people to

2347
02:15:37,960 --> 02:15:41,040
Speaker 5: know the unit. And then there's ellipses here where they've

2348
02:15:41,160 --> 02:15:45,040
Speaker 5: removed part of the quotation. Was unprepared to provide any

2349
02:15:45,080 --> 02:15:49,480
Speaker 5: defense for itself. It was not a fortified position. So

2350
02:15:49,840 --> 02:15:52,800
Speaker 5: where are we now? While the US government continues to

2351
02:15:52,920 --> 02:15:56,000
Speaker 5: edit supercuts of bombs hitting buildings and vehicles to music

2352
02:15:56,120 --> 02:15:59,120
Speaker 5: ladies does not have permission to use. Families in the

2353
02:15:59,200 --> 02:16:01,840
Speaker 5: United States and Iran are both burying their loved ones.

2354
02:16:02,560 --> 02:16:06,200
Speaker 5: Despite the ceasefire, the US in Iran are theoretically held

2355
02:16:06,200 --> 02:16:08,520
Speaker 5: to there has been no cease fire for the Kurds

2356
02:16:08,520 --> 02:16:11,600
Speaker 5: who are still being bombed. No ceasefire for Lebanon, whereas

2357
02:16:11,600 --> 02:16:14,680
Speaker 5: where is still carrying out a massive bombing campaign. And

2358
02:16:14,760 --> 02:16:17,480
Speaker 5: on day two of the USA's blockade of Iranian ports,

2359
02:16:17,720 --> 02:16:20,280
Speaker 5: traffic through the Strait of Hormos remains in the single

2360
02:16:20,280 --> 02:16:23,800
Speaker 5: digit numbers of ships. We have not achieved, and it

2361
02:16:23,800 --> 02:16:27,400
Speaker 5: seems that we likely will not achieve liberation for the

2362
02:16:27,440 --> 02:16:30,200
Speaker 5: people of Iran. In fact, it may be the case

2363
02:16:30,240 --> 02:16:34,359
Speaker 5: that the regime moves closer to the IERGC becomes more hardlined,

2364
02:16:34,440 --> 02:16:38,560
Speaker 5: more repressive, more violent. Just like in Caracas. The only

2365
02:16:38,560 --> 02:16:41,800
Speaker 5: thing the US seems interested in liberating is oil. Iran's

2366
02:16:41,840 --> 02:16:45,440
Speaker 5: nuclear threat remains like Schrodinger's cat are once terrible and

2367
02:16:45,520 --> 02:16:48,760
Speaker 5: non existent, destroyed last year in the justification for thousands

2368
02:16:48,800 --> 02:16:52,400
Speaker 5: of deaths this year, as always, our solidarity should be

2369
02:16:52,440 --> 02:16:56,160
Speaker 5: with people and not with states. We can perfectly coherently

2370
02:16:56,200 --> 02:16:58,080
Speaker 5: hold that the people of Iran do not deserve to

2371
02:16:58,120 --> 02:17:00,800
Speaker 5: be killed by the US or the ring government, and

2372
02:17:00,800 --> 02:17:02,760
Speaker 5: that what we want for them should be what we

2373
02:17:02,800 --> 02:17:16,680
Speaker 5: want for ourselves, peace, freedom, and a beautiful life.

2374
02:17:20,760 --> 02:17:24,160
Speaker 7: This is it could happen here. Executive disorder, our weekly

2375
02:17:24,200 --> 02:17:27,120
Speaker 7: newscast covering what's happening in the White House, the crumbling world,

2376
02:17:27,160 --> 02:17:29,840
Speaker 7: and what it means for you. I'm Garrison Davis today

2377
02:17:29,879 --> 02:17:33,000
Speaker 7: I'm joined by James Stout, Mia Wong and Robert Evans.

2378
02:17:33,320 --> 02:17:36,800
Speaker 1: Yes, happy to be back once again stretching the definitions

2379
02:17:36,879 --> 02:17:37,840
Speaker 1: of the word.

2380
02:17:37,720 --> 02:17:43,000
Speaker 7: Here across time, space and the Internet. We have gathered

2381
02:17:43,040 --> 02:17:46,240
Speaker 7: to discuss the news, and this episode we are covering

2382
02:17:46,240 --> 02:17:50,680
Speaker 7: the week of April eighth to April sixteenth. James, you

2383
02:17:50,680 --> 02:17:53,320
Speaker 7: want to start us off with some short news items.

2384
02:17:53,720 --> 02:17:56,840
Speaker 5: Yep, I got quite a few this week, so lock in.

2385
02:17:57,400 --> 02:18:00,560
Speaker 5: There have been two Turkish school shootings this week. One

2386
02:18:00,760 --> 02:18:05,240
Speaker 5: killed ten people, the other wounded at least sixteen. Since then,

2387
02:18:05,280 --> 02:18:07,840
Speaker 5: there have been one hundred and sixty two arrests for

2388
02:18:08,120 --> 02:18:13,040
Speaker 5: either sharing footage of the shooting or suggesting that similar

2389
02:18:13,040 --> 02:18:17,840
Speaker 5: attacks might happen at other schools. One suspect, according to BBC,

2390
02:18:18,120 --> 02:18:24,560
Speaker 5: made references to US mascular Elliott Roger on his WhatsApp profile, which, yep,

2391
02:18:25,160 --> 02:18:28,920
Speaker 5: not great. Just to yeah. I do find it somewhat

2392
02:18:28,920 --> 02:18:31,040
Speaker 5: frustrating when people say this stuff only happened in the

2393
02:18:31,160 --> 02:18:31,760
Speaker 5: United States.

2394
02:18:31,800 --> 02:18:34,320
Speaker 1: No, no, it doesn't. Now it is a fair point

2395
02:18:34,360 --> 02:18:38,119
Speaker 1: note that like most foreign mass shootings these days are

2396
02:18:38,240 --> 02:18:43,160
Speaker 1: inspired and influenced by American mass shootings. We are foundational

2397
02:18:43,240 --> 02:18:46,360
Speaker 1: to global shooter culture. But it ain't just us.

2398
02:18:46,800 --> 02:18:50,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's not just us. Unfortunately, like culture is global

2399
02:18:51,080 --> 02:18:52,760
Speaker 5: and this is part of that. We also have like

2400
02:18:52,760 --> 02:18:55,560
Speaker 5: your regular terrorism, but this is not that. This is

2401
02:18:55,920 --> 02:19:02,320
Speaker 5: part of that culture. Secondly, SOUTHCOM, the United States military

2402
02:19:02,320 --> 02:19:08,000
Speaker 5: command responsible for, among other things, the Eastern Pacific as

2403
02:19:08,040 --> 02:19:12,240
Speaker 5: it calls it, has announced four strikes on small boats

2404
02:19:12,280 --> 02:19:15,800
Speaker 5: again this week, killing at least eleven people, according to

2405
02:19:15,879 --> 02:19:19,360
Speaker 5: the totals I added up from their announcements. It's probably

2406
02:19:19,360 --> 02:19:24,080
Speaker 5: worth noting that this either suggests that they are not

2407
02:19:24,440 --> 02:19:27,840
Speaker 5: striking drug boats, or that their strikes on drug boats

2408
02:19:27,879 --> 02:19:32,280
Speaker 5: are so spectacally unsuccessful that they are still coming across

2409
02:19:32,280 --> 02:19:34,800
Speaker 5: in such volumes that SOUTHCOM as having to kill people

2410
02:19:35,160 --> 02:19:36,960
Speaker 5: at this continuing rate.

2411
02:19:37,040 --> 02:19:37,160
Speaker 6: Right.

2412
02:19:37,320 --> 02:19:41,440
Speaker 5: Either way, it doesn't point to a successful operation. Next,

2413
02:19:41,520 --> 02:19:45,960
Speaker 5: the Nigerian military seems to have doubled down on strike

2414
02:19:46,000 --> 02:19:48,840
Speaker 5: in Jili. If people haven't been paying attention to this,

2415
02:19:49,480 --> 02:19:52,680
Speaker 5: Jili is a place where a market was bombed. They

2416
02:19:52,720 --> 02:19:56,520
Speaker 5: claimed that the market contained Boko Haram fighters more than

2417
02:19:56,560 --> 02:19:59,440
Speaker 5: one hundred people were killed in this strike, and.

2418
02:19:59,400 --> 02:20:01,440
Speaker 13: I want to miss on what happened recently at Jilli

2419
02:20:01,959 --> 02:20:04,320
Speaker 13: to tell them that now our new strategy is anybody

2420
02:20:04,360 --> 02:20:05,960
Speaker 13: a friend of a tief is a chief. I've said that,

2421
02:20:06,040 --> 02:20:08,959
Speaker 13: so really, anybody that is doing any trade in any

2422
02:20:08,959 --> 02:20:11,160
Speaker 13: support to them, we find you together with them. We're

2423
02:20:11,200 --> 02:20:13,600
Speaker 13: going to deal with you like the bandit, like the terrorists.

2424
02:20:13,680 --> 02:20:15,800
Speaker 13: So people should know, if you don't want to be harmed,

2425
02:20:15,800 --> 02:20:17,400
Speaker 13: please avoid where those terrorists are.

2426
02:20:17,400 --> 02:20:19,080
Speaker 3: I'm going to give them any support.

2427
02:20:19,480 --> 02:20:22,040
Speaker 5: The suggestion here is that being present in a market

2428
02:20:22,120 --> 02:20:25,359
Speaker 5: where these people who are terrorists will also and justifies

2429
02:20:25,400 --> 02:20:28,040
Speaker 5: to targeting them.

2430
02:20:28,360 --> 02:20:28,840
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2431
02:20:29,160 --> 02:20:32,160
Speaker 5: Place worth noting the US has been supporting this campaign right,

2432
02:20:33,040 --> 02:20:35,440
Speaker 5: and this is not the first instance in which civilians

2433
02:20:35,440 --> 02:20:37,320
Speaker 5: have been killed over in about this. My news letter

2434
02:20:37,720 --> 02:20:41,160
Speaker 5: and appeals caught in the DC circuit has prevented Judge

2435
02:20:41,160 --> 02:20:44,920
Speaker 5: Boseberg from continuing an investigation into whether Trump officials sent

2436
02:20:44,959 --> 02:20:49,920
Speaker 5: migrants to a Salvador despite his order. DC Judge Raw wrote,

2437
02:20:50,400 --> 02:20:53,400
Speaker 5: the government has a clear and indisputaful right determination of

2438
02:20:53,400 --> 02:20:56,600
Speaker 5: this judicial investigation because it is premise on an order

2439
02:20:56,640 --> 02:21:00,160
Speaker 5: that is insufficiently clear and specific to sustain a ar

2440
02:21:00,320 --> 02:21:04,320
Speaker 5: to criminal contempt. A long time court interpreter, the only

2441
02:21:04,360 --> 02:21:07,720
Speaker 5: one for several South Asian languages in Texas, has been

2442
02:21:07,760 --> 02:21:12,240
Speaker 5: detained by Ice in airport. She has withholding of removal

2443
02:21:12,280 --> 02:21:16,520
Speaker 5: to India, but with third country removals now increasingly on

2444
02:21:16,560 --> 02:21:21,120
Speaker 5: the table, that is presumably what they intend for her. Finally,

2445
02:21:21,200 --> 02:21:24,959
Speaker 5: in court news, another DOJ attorney has been fined for

2446
02:21:25,080 --> 02:21:28,240
Speaker 5: missing deadlines in a habeas case, and once again that

2447
02:21:28,320 --> 02:21:31,520
Speaker 5: attorney cited a crushing caseload is the reason why they'd

2448
02:21:31,560 --> 02:21:32,600
Speaker 5: missed those deadlines.

2449
02:21:33,320 --> 02:21:36,480
Speaker 7: This week, both the House and the Senate failed to

2450
02:21:36,760 --> 02:21:41,280
Speaker 7: advance a war powers resolution compelling the President to cease

2451
02:21:41,440 --> 02:21:45,240
Speaker 7: military action in Iran. The House vote in particular was

2452
02:21:45,400 --> 02:21:48,240
Speaker 7: very close, with two hundred and thirteen votes to two

2453
02:21:48,360 --> 02:21:52,920
Speaker 7: hundred and fourteen, with only one Democrat, Jared Golden, voting

2454
02:21:52,959 --> 02:21:57,000
Speaker 7: against it, while one Republican, Thomas Massey, voted in support.

2455
02:21:58,320 --> 02:22:01,160
Speaker 7: On Monday, the Trump administration agreed to restore the Pride

2456
02:22:01,160 --> 02:22:04,000
Speaker 7: flag to the Stonewall National Monument as a part of

2457
02:22:04,440 --> 02:22:09,160
Speaker 7: settling a lawsuit over its removal. This weekend, President Trump

2458
02:22:09,200 --> 02:22:12,119
Speaker 7: got into a fight with the Pope over the statements

2459
02:22:12,160 --> 02:22:14,480
Speaker 7: against the US and Israel's war in the Middle East.

2460
02:22:14,879 --> 02:22:17,959
Speaker 7: The president truth that the pope was quote weak on

2461
02:22:18,120 --> 02:22:22,840
Speaker 7: crime and terrible for foreign policy, before sharing an AI

2462
02:22:22,879 --> 02:22:27,160
Speaker 7: image of himself depicted as Jesus Christ. The next day,

2463
02:22:27,240 --> 02:22:30,600
Speaker 7: Trump claimed quote, I thought it was me as a doctor.

2464
02:22:31,120 --> 02:22:31,440
Speaker 3: Quote.

2465
02:22:31,959 --> 02:22:33,680
Speaker 1: Great stuff, great stuff.

2466
02:22:34,600 --> 02:22:39,560
Speaker 5: Just a briefly fact check, he is neither of those things. No,

2467
02:22:39,680 --> 02:22:42,440
Speaker 5: as far as I'm a west or a doctor. Yeah.

2468
02:22:42,520 --> 02:22:44,200
Speaker 7: Yeah, legally, I.

2469
02:22:44,160 --> 02:22:47,400
Speaker 2: Think it is notable and very funny that this has

2470
02:22:47,480 --> 02:22:49,840
Speaker 2: now shifted sniff. No, I'm not a significant but it

2471
02:22:50,240 --> 02:22:52,640
Speaker 2: shifted a discourse on the right to whether or not

2472
02:22:52,680 --> 02:22:57,400
Speaker 2: Trump is the Antichrist, with Enemy of the Show Rob

2473
02:22:57,480 --> 02:23:02,440
Speaker 2: Dreer saying quote, he's given off anti Christ energy. So

2474
02:23:03,200 --> 02:23:07,360
Speaker 2: incredible things are happening for Donald Trump among his nominal base.

2475
02:23:09,440 --> 02:23:12,160
Speaker 5: Meanwhile, Franklin Graham thinks it was an honest mistake.

2476
02:23:13,360 --> 02:23:13,560
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2477
02:23:13,600 --> 02:23:15,240
Speaker 7: I'm sure. I'm sure, I'm sure he does.

2478
02:23:15,320 --> 02:23:16,800
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2479
02:23:16,879 --> 02:23:19,879
Speaker 7: On Wednesday, police responded to a bomb threat at the

2480
02:23:19,879 --> 02:23:23,879
Speaker 7: Illinois home of one of Pope Leo's brothers, about forty

2481
02:23:23,920 --> 02:23:28,160
Speaker 7: miles southwest of Chicago. No explosive was found.

2482
02:23:27,920 --> 02:23:31,720
Speaker 1: So Congress is in the process of deciding whether or

2483
02:23:31,840 --> 02:23:36,200
Speaker 1: not to reauthorize section seven oh two of the Foreign

2484
02:23:36,240 --> 02:23:39,959
Speaker 1: Intelligence Surveillance Act or FAIZA. It's going to sunset on

2485
02:23:40,080 --> 02:23:42,680
Speaker 1: April twenty. We're recording this on the sixteenth, so in

2486
02:23:42,760 --> 02:23:46,240
Speaker 1: four days if Congress does not reauthorize it. Section oh

2487
02:23:46,240 --> 02:23:50,640
Speaker 1: two is what lets intelligence agencies in the US collect email, phone,

2488
02:23:50,840 --> 02:23:54,959
Speaker 1: and text communications from foreign nationals outside of the United States,

2489
02:23:55,200 --> 02:23:58,560
Speaker 1: which often leads to communications of American citizens being caught

2490
02:23:58,600 --> 02:24:01,200
Speaker 1: for obvious reasons. Right well, they get kind of swept

2491
02:24:01,240 --> 02:24:05,240
Speaker 1: up in that big net. The FBI once has asked

2492
02:24:05,280 --> 02:24:07,280
Speaker 1: for and has gotten some permission to like look into

2493
02:24:07,320 --> 02:24:11,720
Speaker 1: that database to get information on American citizens. Congress puts

2494
02:24:11,720 --> 02:24:14,680
Speaker 1: some limitations on that in twenty twenty four, but it

2495
02:24:14,720 --> 02:24:18,200
Speaker 1: remains very controversial and basically, like one of the big

2496
02:24:18,280 --> 02:24:20,480
Speaker 1: debates over this is and there was a vote in

2497
02:24:20,480 --> 02:24:22,879
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four as to whether or not to require

2498
02:24:22,879 --> 02:24:26,920
Speaker 1: intelligence agencies to get a warrant before accessing American communications,

2499
02:24:27,240 --> 02:24:29,120
Speaker 1: and that failed to pass by a single vote in

2500
02:24:29,160 --> 02:24:31,760
Speaker 1: the House two twelve to two twelve split in twenty

2501
02:24:31,840 --> 02:24:35,080
Speaker 1: twenty four. So right now, you know there's both the

2502
02:24:35,160 --> 02:24:38,359
Speaker 1: question of is this going to get reauthorized by Congress,

2503
02:24:38,480 --> 02:24:41,880
Speaker 1: in which case is like the FBI is certainly going

2504
02:24:41,920 --> 02:24:44,320
Speaker 1: to use it to go after like the communications of

2505
02:24:44,400 --> 02:24:47,640
Speaker 1: quote unquote antifa, right of like people who have been

2506
02:24:47,640 --> 02:24:51,879
Speaker 1: caught because they've been naming foreign groups, anti fascist groups,

2507
02:24:51,320 --> 02:24:57,280
Speaker 1: like foreign terrorist organizations. That's very obviously like one of

2508
02:24:57,280 --> 02:25:00,240
Speaker 1: the things this is going to be used for kind

2509
02:25:00,240 --> 02:25:02,720
Speaker 1: of unclear, like what is going to happen here where

2510
02:25:02,760 --> 02:25:04,600
Speaker 1: Congress is going to land. I did find there's an

2511
02:25:04,600 --> 02:25:07,360
Speaker 1: interesting article in Just Security where they're very worried that

2512
02:25:08,040 --> 02:25:12,080
Speaker 1: because of how very obvious it is that federal law

2513
02:25:12,160 --> 02:25:15,880
Speaker 1: enforcement will abuse this section seven h two will just

2514
02:25:15,959 --> 02:25:19,520
Speaker 1: kind of go away entirely, and the useful aspects of

2515
02:25:19,560 --> 02:25:22,119
Speaker 1: it as they see it will no longer be possible.

2516
02:25:22,200 --> 02:25:24,560
Speaker 1: That's not my primary concern, but it's interesting to read

2517
02:25:24,600 --> 02:25:26,560
Speaker 1: someone being like, oh my god, if these guys go

2518
02:25:26,680 --> 02:25:30,520
Speaker 1: so crazy, like if they keep refusing to like allow

2519
02:25:30,640 --> 02:25:33,320
Speaker 1: warrants to be entered into the process and keep insisting

2520
02:25:33,360 --> 02:25:37,080
Speaker 1: on going after like anti fat like left wing domestic terrorists,

2521
02:25:37,320 --> 02:25:39,800
Speaker 1: they're going to lose our ability to like surveil foreign

2522
02:25:39,879 --> 02:25:42,360
Speaker 1: nationals entirely. Is kind of the concern from a lot

2523
02:25:42,360 --> 02:25:46,080
Speaker 1: of security people. Anyway, Just probably good that you're aware

2524
02:25:46,080 --> 02:25:50,360
Speaker 1: of that. So probably the biggest international piece of news

2525
02:25:50,959 --> 02:25:55,039
Speaker 1: this week that we're covering is the defeat of Victor Orbon,

2526
02:25:55,840 --> 02:26:00,520
Speaker 1: who was often considered to be like a quasi dictatorial figure.

2527
02:26:00,640 --> 02:26:04,000
Speaker 1: I mean, he arose to power in Hungary legally, but

2528
02:26:04,160 --> 02:26:07,240
Speaker 1: his party like as soon as he took power more

2529
02:26:07,280 --> 02:26:11,080
Speaker 1: than a decade ago, he's basically been cracking down on

2530
02:26:11,120 --> 02:26:15,240
Speaker 1: the ability of counterparties to like organize. There's been like

2531
02:26:15,320 --> 02:26:19,840
Speaker 1: massive crackdowns on the like ability of like it's a

2532
02:26:19,879 --> 02:26:23,279
Speaker 1: lot of prototype Trump stuff, Like they went after professors,

2533
02:26:23,280 --> 02:26:25,480
Speaker 1: they went after colleges, they went after like public funds

2534
02:26:25,520 --> 02:26:28,320
Speaker 1: to educational institutions, to libraries.

2535
02:26:28,680 --> 02:26:33,600
Speaker 7: Yeah, he pioneered the modern tactics of undermining liberal democracy

2536
02:26:33,760 --> 02:26:35,360
Speaker 7: via the legal system.

2537
02:26:35,800 --> 02:26:37,879
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, it's like him and Aired Wanner sort of

2538
02:26:37,920 --> 02:26:38,240
Speaker 2: like yeah.

2539
02:26:38,280 --> 02:26:42,199
Speaker 1: Two, he went after the LGBT community, tried to criminalize

2540
02:26:42,200 --> 02:26:45,560
Speaker 1: like criminalize like pride events and stuff. And also like

2541
02:26:46,120 --> 02:26:48,440
Speaker 1: in a big a big part of like Orbon was

2542
02:26:48,440 --> 02:26:51,039
Speaker 1: obviously very anti migrant, like anti we don't want to

2543
02:26:51,080 --> 02:26:55,080
Speaker 1: take in, you know, particularly during the Syrian refugee crisis

2544
02:26:55,080 --> 02:26:57,480
Speaker 1: that was like a big moment for them. But he

2545
02:26:57,560 --> 02:27:00,320
Speaker 1: was also really anti EU. You know Hungary is a

2546
02:27:00,360 --> 02:27:03,200
Speaker 1: part of the EU, but Orbond's party was very e

2547
02:27:03,600 --> 02:27:07,480
Speaker 1: like the Fidez Party was super EU critical, and in

2548
02:27:07,520 --> 02:27:10,359
Speaker 1: the last decade and change that they've been in power,

2549
02:27:11,040 --> 02:27:14,800
Speaker 1: the Fidez Party has been massively corrupt and in fact

2550
02:27:14,879 --> 02:27:17,840
Speaker 1: has kind of turned the Hungarian government to the extent

2551
02:27:17,959 --> 02:27:20,959
Speaker 1: like you know, there was corruption before obviously, but he's

2552
02:27:21,000 --> 02:27:25,280
Speaker 1: woven his party into the very workings of the government,

2553
02:27:25,320 --> 02:27:28,800
Speaker 1: primarily as a way to collect money from people and

2554
02:27:28,879 --> 02:27:32,160
Speaker 1: to distribute government funds to like these right wing pet

2555
02:27:32,200 --> 02:27:34,480
Speaker 1: projects that they had, which we'll I'll talk about a

2556
02:27:34,480 --> 02:27:36,760
Speaker 1: little more in a second. But this started to piss

2557
02:27:36,760 --> 02:27:39,840
Speaker 1: people off in Hungary, particularly because the government wasn't doing

2558
02:27:39,879 --> 02:27:44,040
Speaker 1: a good job of governing, like the Hungarian economy remained

2559
02:27:44,040 --> 02:27:47,920
Speaker 1: one of the worst in Europe. Unemployment remained high. Like

2560
02:27:48,080 --> 02:27:50,720
Speaker 1: none of the promises that like, well, if we're if

2561
02:27:50,720 --> 02:27:53,200
Speaker 1: we kind of pushed the EU away, and if we

2562
02:27:53,280 --> 02:27:56,480
Speaker 1: keep all if we keep these migrants out, the economy

2563
02:27:56,520 --> 02:28:00,000
Speaker 1: will get better. What really happened was fides robbed everyone blind,

2564
02:28:00,200 --> 02:28:03,000
Speaker 1: and Orbon robbed everyone blind and put his cronies in

2565
02:28:03,080 --> 02:28:05,560
Speaker 1: positions of power in the hope that he would never

2566
02:28:05,600 --> 02:28:09,119
Speaker 1: be forced out. Now, Orbon's an interesting figure in part

2567
02:28:09,120 --> 02:28:12,240
Speaker 1: because he got his start as a pro democracy figure

2568
02:28:12,560 --> 02:28:15,480
Speaker 1: during the latter years of communism in Hungary. He was

2569
02:28:15,560 --> 02:28:19,520
Speaker 1: a liberal like democratic activist, and in fact, the guy

2570
02:28:19,560 --> 02:28:22,760
Speaker 1: who just beat him, Peter Magyar, we'll talk about his

2571
02:28:22,840 --> 02:28:26,640
Speaker 1: name also in a second, grew up with like a

2572
02:28:26,720 --> 02:28:30,360
Speaker 1: poster of Orbon on his bedroom wall because Orbon, you

2573
02:28:30,400 --> 02:28:32,840
Speaker 1: know again, communism was coming to an end. Everyone was

2574
02:28:32,959 --> 02:28:35,640
Speaker 1: very excited, all the young people were very excited about democracy,

2575
02:28:35,840 --> 02:28:38,440
Speaker 1: and Orbon was like a figure and he was still

2576
02:28:38,480 --> 02:28:41,039
Speaker 1: he was never like a leftist figure when I say liberal,

2577
02:28:41,200 --> 02:28:45,760
Speaker 1: but he was a figure of like democratizing values. Now

2578
02:28:45,840 --> 02:28:50,440
Speaker 1: Magyar himself is an odd guy. He's forty five years old.

2579
02:28:50,920 --> 02:28:55,640
Speaker 1: And the party that he ran with, the Tisa Party Tisza,

2580
02:28:56,600 --> 02:29:00,440
Speaker 1: was a party before him, but like not a living

2581
02:29:00,480 --> 02:29:02,840
Speaker 1: one really, like it had been a political party and

2582
02:29:02,879 --> 02:29:05,520
Speaker 1: it had basically died out to irrelevance. I think they

2583
02:29:05,560 --> 02:29:08,360
Speaker 1: had a couple of dudes kind of kicking around. It's

2584
02:29:08,400 --> 02:29:11,000
Speaker 1: almost like if there were still a tiny wig party

2585
02:29:11,400 --> 02:29:14,040
Speaker 1: that like four or five guys met in like twice

2586
02:29:14,080 --> 02:29:16,039
Speaker 1: a year to like have their little wig meeting.

2587
02:29:16,480 --> 02:29:18,360
Speaker 5: The bold coming back that.

2588
02:29:18,680 --> 02:29:22,680
Speaker 1: Some guy who's like a Barack Obama level political mind

2589
02:29:22,760 --> 02:29:26,920
Speaker 1: in terms of his skill in organizing and charisma came

2590
02:29:26,959 --> 02:29:31,920
Speaker 1: in and turned that party into a fucking electoral powerhouse

2591
02:29:32,280 --> 02:29:37,039
Speaker 1: that completely annihilated the previous leading party in an election.

2592
02:29:37,440 --> 02:29:41,280
Speaker 1: Like that's basically what happened in Hungary. It's a very

2593
02:29:41,320 --> 02:29:46,440
Speaker 1: weird story. And Magyar is definitely brilliant in terms of

2594
02:29:46,560 --> 02:29:49,800
Speaker 1: he is someone who is objectively very intelligent when it

2595
02:29:49,840 --> 02:29:54,400
Speaker 1: comes to how to build power in a political organization

2596
02:29:55,000 --> 02:29:58,240
Speaker 1: and how to win elections and how to message to people.

2597
02:29:58,240 --> 02:29:59,959
Speaker 3: He's very good at all of that stuff.

2598
02:30:00,520 --> 02:30:03,840
Speaker 1: Now, this is not like a leftist or a progressive

2599
02:30:04,360 --> 02:30:07,200
Speaker 1: like hero type figure, and he has not pretended to be,

2600
02:30:07,280 --> 02:30:09,320
Speaker 1: to be very clear, that's not how he built himself

2601
02:30:09,320 --> 02:30:12,000
Speaker 1: at all. In fact, in some ways he's more conservative

2602
02:30:12,000 --> 02:30:15,000
Speaker 1: than Orbon. His party that is a party is like

2603
02:30:15,080 --> 02:30:17,959
Speaker 1: even like Orbon at least had like a guest worker

2604
02:30:18,000 --> 02:30:21,560
Speaker 1: program and stuff, and Maggar's against even a lot of

2605
02:30:21,600 --> 02:30:25,240
Speaker 1: that stuff, Like he is actually more hostile to having

2606
02:30:25,800 --> 02:30:29,960
Speaker 1: like like immigration, but he's not anti EU and he's not.

2607
02:30:30,160 --> 02:30:34,920
Speaker 1: What's interesting is like he's really kind of hedging in between,

2608
02:30:35,240 --> 02:30:38,000
Speaker 1: like hedging his I don't know entirely how to describe this.

2609
02:30:38,040 --> 02:30:41,039
Speaker 1: He's like writing a very weird line because he is

2610
02:30:41,080 --> 02:30:44,920
Speaker 1: not anti Ukraine, but he's also against Hungary sending weapons

2611
02:30:44,920 --> 02:30:48,520
Speaker 1: a directly to Ukraine. But his oldlatitude is like, I'm

2612
02:30:48,520 --> 02:30:51,200
Speaker 1: not super pro what you guys are doing, but I'm

2613
02:30:51,200 --> 02:30:54,240
Speaker 1: not going to fight anything in the EU Parliament. Hungary's

2614
02:30:54,240 --> 02:30:57,039
Speaker 1: going to stop. Hungary has been like a spoiler in

2615
02:30:57,160 --> 02:30:59,760
Speaker 1: EU politics for a while, where they would just kind

2616
02:30:59,800 --> 02:31:02,400
Speaker 1: of to fuck with whatever the EU wants to do,

2617
02:31:02,720 --> 02:31:06,440
Speaker 1: especially used to regards aiding Ukraine and Magyar's whole thing

2618
02:31:06,480 --> 02:31:08,240
Speaker 1: is like, I'm just gonna stop, like I'm not gonna

2619
02:31:08,280 --> 02:31:10,920
Speaker 1: ful throatedly support the stuff you guys want. I'm just

2620
02:31:10,959 --> 02:31:13,840
Speaker 1: gonna stop being an anchor weighing you down, which is

2621
02:31:13,959 --> 02:31:17,360
Speaker 1: enough like for the EU to be excited about this. Yeah,

2622
02:31:17,400 --> 02:31:20,879
Speaker 1: like finally, this guy Hungary is not gonna be Hungary

2623
02:31:20,920 --> 02:31:24,080
Speaker 1: is a weird history of acting like an anchor on

2624
02:31:24,680 --> 02:31:28,119
Speaker 1: other polities. Sometimes that's kind of what was going on

2625
02:31:28,320 --> 02:31:30,760
Speaker 1: in the Austro Hungarian Empire in like the pre World

2626
02:31:30,800 --> 02:31:34,320
Speaker 1: War One era, where Hungary saw itself as very separate

2627
02:31:34,440 --> 02:31:38,600
Speaker 1: from the Austria Hungary aspect of things, and would vote

2628
02:31:38,640 --> 02:31:41,039
Speaker 1: to like fuck with the military because they wanted their

2629
02:31:41,040 --> 02:31:43,680
Speaker 1: own military to get more powerful. It's not entirely the same,

2630
02:31:43,800 --> 02:31:47,840
Speaker 1: it's just interesting the level of like contrarianus that's kind

2631
02:31:47,840 --> 02:31:52,120
Speaker 1: of baked into a lot of Hungarian politics. I mentioned

2632
02:31:52,120 --> 02:31:55,560
Speaker 1: something about Peter's name. So the Magyars are like the

2633
02:31:55,640 --> 02:31:59,240
Speaker 1: original like nomadic horse warrior people of the area we

2634
02:31:59,320 --> 02:32:03,160
Speaker 1: know as Hungary today, the name Magyar just means Hungarian now,

2635
02:32:03,200 --> 02:32:05,720
Speaker 1: but it came from the most powerful of these tribes

2636
02:32:05,800 --> 02:32:09,800
Speaker 1: of nomadic warriors. And someone had made a point of

2637
02:32:09,840 --> 02:32:11,600
Speaker 1: this on I was ad of Twitter or Blue Sky

2638
02:32:11,680 --> 02:32:14,440
Speaker 1: around the election that like Peter Magyar is basically if

2639
02:32:14,440 --> 02:32:17,760
Speaker 1: a guy was named Johnny American, right, Like that's like

2640
02:32:18,080 --> 02:32:21,000
Speaker 1: literally like his name could not be more patriotic.

2641
02:32:21,240 --> 02:32:21,480
Speaker 7: Yeah.

2642
02:32:21,680 --> 02:32:22,040
Speaker 6: Yeah.

2643
02:32:23,080 --> 02:32:25,879
Speaker 2: Adolf Hitler defeated by a yeah in Germany.

2644
02:32:26,120 --> 02:32:29,600
Speaker 1: And Maggar became a force on the political stage in

2645
02:32:29,680 --> 02:32:32,400
Speaker 1: Hungary very suddenly. He wasn't really a major figure. He

2646
02:32:32,480 --> 02:32:34,240
Speaker 1: was kind of actually connected to a lot of because

2647
02:32:34,240 --> 02:32:36,440
Speaker 1: again he was a supporter of the Fadez party. He

2648
02:32:36,480 --> 02:32:39,200
Speaker 1: had a lot of friends who were members of Orbon's government.

2649
02:32:39,200 --> 02:32:41,800
Speaker 1: One of his buddies was Orbon's chief of staff. In

2650
02:32:41,800 --> 02:32:44,160
Speaker 1: two thousand and six, he married a woman, judyte Varga,

2651
02:32:44,240 --> 02:32:47,480
Speaker 1: who was the Minister of Justice for the Fadez party

2652
02:32:47,560 --> 02:32:50,959
Speaker 1: under Orbon right, and he'd worked as like a diplomat

2653
02:32:51,000 --> 02:32:53,760
Speaker 1: in Brussels, so he's like a guy who's part of

2654
02:32:53,800 --> 02:32:57,360
Speaker 1: this government apparatus that Orbon puts into place. But in

2655
02:32:57,360 --> 02:33:01,039
Speaker 1: twenty twenty fours there's this huge scandal where the Ministry

2656
02:33:01,080 --> 02:33:04,240
Speaker 1: of Justice and like his wife by which I mean

2657
02:33:04,280 --> 02:33:06,440
Speaker 1: his well now his ex wife because they split, and

2658
02:33:06,480 --> 02:33:09,960
Speaker 1: then his ex wife pardons a man who had gotten

2659
02:33:10,000 --> 02:33:12,320
Speaker 1: convicted for covering up a sex abuse scandal at a

2660
02:33:12,400 --> 02:33:16,360
Speaker 1: children's home, and Magyar becomes like one of the most

2661
02:33:16,440 --> 02:33:19,360
Speaker 1: visible figures on the backlash, being like this entire party

2662
02:33:19,440 --> 02:33:22,600
Speaker 1: is corrupt, this is super fucked up, and he's coming

2663
02:33:22,600 --> 02:33:24,360
Speaker 1: from a position of and I was a part of it,

2664
02:33:24,440 --> 02:33:27,119
Speaker 1: so I know, like I'm an insider who's broken from

2665
02:33:27,160 --> 02:33:30,240
Speaker 1: the group because how corrupt and bad this is, and

2666
02:33:30,280 --> 02:33:35,119
Speaker 1: there's some messed up stuff in there. Magyar does attack

2667
02:33:35,360 --> 02:33:40,000
Speaker 1: Orbon and Fidez because his ex wife gets fired along

2668
02:33:40,040 --> 02:33:42,720
Speaker 1: with another woman. When this scandal becomes a problem, and

2669
02:33:42,760 --> 02:33:45,800
Speaker 1: he accuses the government of like hiding behind women's skirts.

2670
02:33:46,400 --> 02:33:51,600
Speaker 1: But he's also got he's an odd pers There's some

2671
02:33:52,200 --> 02:33:57,920
Speaker 1: uncomfortable not damning or anything, just some like uncomfortable realities

2672
02:33:58,000 --> 02:33:59,720
Speaker 1: about him. And I want to read a quote from

2673
02:33:59,760 --> 02:34:03,280
Speaker 1: an en PR article that came out recently that talks

2674
02:34:03,320 --> 02:34:05,600
Speaker 1: about some of this. Magar has blamed the end of

2675
02:34:05,640 --> 02:34:08,840
Speaker 1: his marriage to Varga, at least in part on political disagreements. Notably,

2676
02:34:08,920 --> 02:34:11,440
Speaker 1: just months before the divorce was finalized in twenty twenty three,

2677
02:34:11,600 --> 02:34:14,680
Speaker 1: he secretly recorded one of their conversations, and it Varga

2678
02:34:14,840 --> 02:34:17,480
Speaker 1: was talking about an attempt by government aids to interfere

2679
02:34:17,480 --> 02:34:20,240
Speaker 1: in a corruption case. Maggar released a recording in the

2680
02:34:20,320 --> 02:34:22,680
Speaker 1: wake of the pardon scandal the following year, which only

2681
02:34:22,680 --> 02:34:25,800
Speaker 1: added fuel to the fire and credence to his corruption claims,

2682
02:34:26,560 --> 02:34:29,760
Speaker 1: and his wife resigns from public life altogether after this.

2683
02:34:30,160 --> 02:34:33,279
Speaker 1: She has accused him of verbal and physical abuse, including

2684
02:34:33,320 --> 02:34:35,880
Speaker 1: like locking her in a room, and obviously, like the

2685
02:34:35,920 --> 02:34:38,599
Speaker 1: whole recording account, there's a lot of there's some uncomfortable

2686
02:34:38,640 --> 02:34:41,880
Speaker 1: stuff about this guy. But that said, she's also super

2687
02:34:41,879 --> 02:34:45,520
Speaker 1: corrupt and like doing a lot of really so I

2688
02:34:46,200 --> 02:34:49,400
Speaker 1: don't know, and no one really does if you read

2689
02:34:49,400 --> 02:34:51,080
Speaker 1: a lot about this guy. One of the things people

2690
02:34:51,080 --> 02:34:52,560
Speaker 1: point is that we don't etually know a lot about

2691
02:34:52,600 --> 02:34:55,000
Speaker 1: him other than he's really good at whipping a party

2692
02:34:55,040 --> 02:34:56,720
Speaker 1: into shape and winning an election.

2693
02:34:57,120 --> 02:34:59,200
Speaker 5: Right like, he proved that much, But we.

2694
02:34:59,120 --> 02:35:02,840
Speaker 1: Don't know much about him. Even Orbon has made anti

2695
02:35:03,080 --> 02:35:08,640
Speaker 1: LGBTQ rights a big part of his platform, especially as

2696
02:35:08,400 --> 02:35:12,320
Speaker 1: his position has gotten weaker, He's tried to like supercharge

2697
02:35:12,320 --> 02:35:15,600
Speaker 1: that as a way to hold on the power. Magyar's

2698
02:35:15,640 --> 02:35:20,600
Speaker 1: not pro queer rights, but he's not anti queer rights.

2699
02:35:19,920 --> 02:35:24,320
Speaker 1: He has criticized the Orbon government from going after LGBTQ

2700
02:35:24,480 --> 02:35:27,120
Speaker 1: people and says that they're doing it to distract citizens

2701
02:35:27,160 --> 02:35:29,440
Speaker 1: from the issues, which is true. He said that he

2702
02:35:29,440 --> 02:35:31,920
Speaker 1: supports the right to assembly, he has not said that

2703
02:35:31,959 --> 02:35:36,160
Speaker 1: he supports LGBTQ rights. That said, if going from a

2704
02:35:36,160 --> 02:35:38,400
Speaker 1: guy who's like, I actively want to prosecute people for

2705
02:35:38,440 --> 02:35:40,879
Speaker 1: being queer to a guy who's like, I just don't

2706
02:35:40,879 --> 02:35:43,720
Speaker 1: want to talk about it is probably an improvement.

2707
02:35:44,520 --> 02:35:47,240
Speaker 7: It's worth noting that in his victory speech he did

2708
02:35:47,640 --> 02:35:53,880
Speaker 7: make two references to LGBTQ rights, saying that quote everyone

2709
02:35:53,959 --> 02:35:56,200
Speaker 7: can live with whoever they love, as long as they

2710
02:35:56,200 --> 02:36:00,480
Speaker 7: do not violate laws or harm others, and also said, quote,

2711
02:36:00,600 --> 02:36:02,800
Speaker 7: we want to make a country where no one is

2712
02:36:02,879 --> 02:36:07,160
Speaker 7: persecuted because they think differently, or because someone loves in

2713
02:36:07,200 --> 02:36:08,920
Speaker 7: a different way to others.

2714
02:36:09,280 --> 02:36:09,840
Speaker 2: Unquote.

2715
02:36:10,600 --> 02:36:13,800
Speaker 1: This is again broadly, a really good thing, and it's

2716
02:36:13,840 --> 02:36:17,720
Speaker 1: also good. It's good in Hungary, it's also good worldwide

2717
02:36:17,720 --> 02:36:21,120
Speaker 1: because Hungary has been for years not just a major

2718
02:36:21,160 --> 02:36:24,039
Speaker 1: supporter of far right groups. One of the things Magyar

2719
02:36:24,120 --> 02:36:27,960
Speaker 1: pointed out as soon as he won election is that

2720
02:36:28,240 --> 02:36:32,160
Speaker 1: there's evidence that they have found that the Fidez party

2721
02:36:32,280 --> 02:36:37,200
Speaker 1: was using Hungarian governmental funds to support a couple of

2722
02:36:37,480 --> 02:36:40,320
Speaker 1: number one to support Seapack because they hold like a

2723
02:36:40,400 --> 02:36:44,760
Speaker 1: foreign seapac gatherings in Hungary. So like Seapack has been

2724
02:36:44,840 --> 02:36:49,960
Speaker 1: getting money from the Hungarian government, and Magyar said, like,

2725
02:36:50,040 --> 02:36:52,959
Speaker 1: that's not fine, We're not okay with that. I think

2726
02:36:53,000 --> 02:36:56,480
Speaker 1: that's actually illegal. And he has also noted that that

2727
02:36:56,600 --> 02:37:00,119
Speaker 1: government money was going to support the Matthias Corvinus Call

2728
02:37:00,560 --> 02:37:03,680
Speaker 1: or MCC, which was receiving funds from the Orbanne government,

2729
02:37:03,680 --> 02:37:06,080
Speaker 1: and that that is going to stop now. The MCC

2730
02:37:06,600 --> 02:37:09,200
Speaker 1: is both like it's an organization in Hungary, but they

2731
02:37:09,200 --> 02:37:11,119
Speaker 1: also have a bunch of like foreign They've got one

2732
02:37:11,120 --> 02:37:14,240
Speaker 1: in like Romania, there's one in Brussels. They have like

2733
02:37:14,240 --> 02:37:17,200
Speaker 1: a bunch of foreign branches and they use the MCC

2734
02:37:17,800 --> 02:37:20,080
Speaker 1: and fund it in order to fund the fire right

2735
02:37:20,200 --> 02:37:24,640
Speaker 1: in other European countries. Right, Like the MCC supports like

2736
02:37:24,680 --> 02:37:28,279
Speaker 1: the one in Brussels supports in Brussels local fire right groups.

2737
02:37:28,600 --> 02:37:31,600
Speaker 1: And it's been very a fairly effective way of like

2738
02:37:31,720 --> 02:37:36,000
Speaker 1: funding some of these like and oftentimes like Nazi adjacent organizations.

2739
02:37:36,959 --> 02:37:39,160
Speaker 1: And that money is looking to go away. And there's

2740
02:37:39,160 --> 02:37:41,680
Speaker 1: an interesting Politico article about some of this that talk

2741
02:37:41,800 --> 02:37:44,920
Speaker 1: to the MCC Brussels people, like the offshoot of this

2742
02:37:44,959 --> 02:37:48,320
Speaker 1: in Brussels. For its part, MCC Brussels said that Sunday's

2743
02:37:48,320 --> 02:37:50,039
Speaker 1: election result will have no bearing on its work in

2744
02:37:50,080 --> 02:37:53,039
Speaker 1: the city. As an independent organization. We will continue to research,

2745
02:37:53,040 --> 02:37:55,760
Speaker 1: analyze and advocate around our core concerns and continue to

2746
02:37:55,760 --> 02:38:01,359
Speaker 1: hold the European Union institutions to account. That's the communications manager.

2747
02:38:01,640 --> 02:38:03,840
Speaker 1: And the article goes on to note MCC Brussels gets

2748
02:38:03,840 --> 02:38:06,720
Speaker 1: almost alledge cash ninety nine percent, coming to just over

2749
02:38:06,760 --> 02:38:09,040
Speaker 1: six million euros according to its listing in the last

2750
02:38:09,080 --> 02:38:12,519
Speaker 1: financial year as part of a grant from Matthias Corvinus Collegium,

2751
02:38:12,600 --> 02:38:15,320
Speaker 1: which received a ten percent stake in Hungary's lucrative oil

2752
02:38:15,360 --> 02:38:18,080
Speaker 1: and gas company MOL from Orbonn's government in twenty twenty.

2753
02:38:18,240 --> 02:38:21,080
Speaker 1: That's certainly going away too. This is a major blow

2754
02:38:21,160 --> 02:38:24,240
Speaker 1: to far right organizing in Europe and in the United States.

2755
02:38:24,520 --> 02:38:26,920
Speaker 1: And it's more than just losing money, losing a space

2756
02:38:26,959 --> 02:38:29,320
Speaker 1: to gather, it's losing a proof of concept.

2757
02:38:29,600 --> 02:38:29,840
Speaker 3: Right.

2758
02:38:30,320 --> 02:38:33,080
Speaker 1: Orbon was the guy they pointed to, is like, this

2759
02:38:33,160 --> 02:38:35,880
Speaker 1: is what we want to do in America, not just America,

2760
02:38:36,000 --> 02:38:39,240
Speaker 1: but very directly, and Orbon just flamed the fuck out

2761
02:38:39,280 --> 02:38:42,160
Speaker 1: because he sucked at governing. Now, what happens next is

2762
02:38:42,200 --> 02:38:45,600
Speaker 1: going to depend on whether or not Magyar prosecutes Fede's

2763
02:38:45,640 --> 02:38:48,920
Speaker 1: party members prosecutes Orbon and his cronies. He said he's

2764
02:38:48,959 --> 02:38:51,840
Speaker 1: going to, so we'll see, and that's all I gotta

2765
02:38:51,840 --> 02:38:52,360
Speaker 1: say for now.

2766
02:38:53,400 --> 02:38:56,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it's worth noting that, like in Europe,

2767
02:38:56,120 --> 02:38:59,720
Speaker 5: we had this somewhat with Donald Tusk in Poland right

2768
02:39:00,440 --> 02:39:03,000
Speaker 5: and what we have seen there, for instance, on immigration,

2769
02:39:04,080 --> 02:39:07,720
Speaker 5: has been a continued movement to the right. Right like

2770
02:39:07,920 --> 02:39:12,840
Speaker 5: Tusk has been like talking about not complying with EU

2771
02:39:12,879 --> 02:39:17,240
Speaker 5: immigration rulings. And I think that's probably something that people

2772
02:39:17,240 --> 02:39:19,560
Speaker 5: who are interesting which way this might go should look at.

2773
02:39:19,600 --> 02:39:22,039
Speaker 5: But that doesn't mean that it's a bad thing. That

2774
02:39:22,120 --> 02:39:26,400
Speaker 5: all that is out now that Aubank conceded, right Like,

2775
02:39:26,480 --> 02:39:30,680
Speaker 5: he had multiple US politicians, including the Vice president, campaigning

2776
02:39:30,720 --> 02:39:33,879
Speaker 5: for him, and he lost, and he admitted he lost,

2777
02:39:33,920 --> 02:39:35,959
Speaker 5: and that is a very good sign.

2778
02:39:36,480 --> 02:39:39,680
Speaker 1: Part of why he conceded is he thinks that he's

2779
02:39:39,680 --> 02:39:42,360
Speaker 1: got enough people in the woven end of the government

2780
02:39:42,800 --> 02:39:44,760
Speaker 1: that he can return to power, or at least his

2781
02:39:44,800 --> 02:39:47,879
Speaker 1: party can so. Meg again, Magyar's big challenge is going

2782
02:39:47,920 --> 02:39:49,400
Speaker 1: to be making sure that doesn't happen.

2783
02:39:50,040 --> 02:39:54,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and whatever else. I think it's very very

2784
02:39:54,360 --> 02:39:57,360
Speaker 2: unlikely that Magyar is going to be doing shit like, hey,

2785
02:39:57,400 --> 02:39:59,320
Speaker 2: we're going to use face We're going to threaten to

2786
02:39:59,400 --> 02:40:01,680
Speaker 2: use facial cognition on everyone who shows up to a

2787
02:40:01,680 --> 02:40:04,480
Speaker 2: Pride protest and a Pride march and arrest them, so,

2788
02:40:05,600 --> 02:40:07,080
Speaker 2: you know, hopefully getting better.

2789
02:40:07,560 --> 02:40:14,520
Speaker 1: Yeah. I again, he was willing to wire tap his wife.

2790
02:40:15,879 --> 02:40:18,640
Speaker 1: There's no evidence that he takes like pleasure in fucking

2791
02:40:18,680 --> 02:40:21,240
Speaker 1: with people. Like that doesn't seem to be as vibe,

2792
02:40:22,040 --> 02:40:22,800
Speaker 1: so hopefully not.

2793
02:40:23,200 --> 02:40:26,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, all right, should we take a break? We shall,

2794
02:40:26,959 --> 02:40:27,600
Speaker 5: all right.

2795
02:40:27,600 --> 02:40:33,120
Speaker 7: Then we will be back for more news.

2796
02:40:40,120 --> 02:40:42,360
Speaker 2: So one of the other pieces of news coming out

2797
02:40:42,400 --> 02:40:47,800
Speaker 2: of the right wing sphere is this really incredibly staged

2798
02:40:48,920 --> 02:40:54,720
Speaker 2: photo op that Donald Trump had where he like got

2799
02:40:54,760 --> 02:40:58,840
Speaker 2: this really well photographed, like fake door Dash order and

2800
02:40:58,879 --> 02:41:01,160
Speaker 2: then tipped tip them in one hundred dollars. That was

2801
02:41:01,160 --> 02:41:03,200
Speaker 2: supposed to be a promotion for his note taps on

2802
02:41:03,280 --> 02:41:07,760
Speaker 2: tips thing. There's a lot of stuff going on here.

2803
02:41:08,360 --> 02:41:10,240
Speaker 2: There's been a whole bunch of stuff because people immediately

2804
02:41:10,280 --> 02:41:12,920
Speaker 2: figured out that this person is someone who's been basically

2805
02:41:13,040 --> 02:41:15,560
Speaker 2: used to lobby for this policy a bunch. She shows

2806
02:41:15,640 --> 02:41:18,800
Speaker 2: up all over the place, like testifying in front of

2807
02:41:18,840 --> 02:41:21,480
Speaker 2: congressional committees and stuff about no tax for tips and

2808
02:41:21,560 --> 02:41:24,320
Speaker 2: like or like legislatures all over the country. There's a

2809
02:41:24,320 --> 02:41:26,000
Speaker 2: whole bunch of kind of funny stuff where she gets

2810
02:41:26,000 --> 02:41:27,600
Speaker 2: asked if she would vote for Trump and whether she

2811
02:41:27,640 --> 02:41:31,800
Speaker 2: supports trans athletes, and she's just like there's also a

2812
02:41:31,840 --> 02:41:36,880
Speaker 2: whole story about sort of door Dash's pr person just

2813
02:41:37,240 --> 02:41:40,280
Speaker 2: having a crash out and getting extremely mad online.

2814
02:41:42,760 --> 02:41:44,560
Speaker 1: Me don't don't put it in the newspaper that they

2815
02:41:44,600 --> 02:41:45,040
Speaker 1: got mad.

2816
02:41:46,600 --> 02:41:51,240
Speaker 2: It's really amazing. But I think the actual story here

2817
02:41:51,400 --> 02:41:54,040
Speaker 2: is about no tax on tips as a political project,

2818
02:41:55,240 --> 02:41:58,160
Speaker 2: and I think the actual most egregious part of this

2819
02:41:58,200 --> 02:42:03,400
Speaker 2: whole event was the White House. They operate like fifty

2820
02:42:03,440 --> 02:42:06,200
Speaker 2: five Twitter accounts. One of them the Guardian points out

2821
02:42:06,200 --> 02:42:10,160
Speaker 2: as this like rapid response thing, and it posts this

2822
02:42:10,320 --> 02:42:13,440
Speaker 2: video where that's captioned about how this woman said she

2823
02:42:13,840 --> 02:42:18,920
Speaker 2: saved eleven thousand dollars in taxes on tips. That's not true,

2824
02:42:19,000 --> 02:42:24,360
Speaker 2: it can't be true. It's just mathematically a lie. The

2825
02:42:24,400 --> 02:42:26,800
Speaker 2: actual policy and the Guardian's doing some good work on

2826
02:42:26,840 --> 02:42:30,959
Speaker 2: this lays out quote. But the no tax on tips

2827
02:42:31,000 --> 02:42:34,000
Speaker 2: policy is only a temporary deduction of up to twenty

2828
02:42:34,000 --> 02:42:37,800
Speaker 2: five thousand dollars in tips for eligible workers annually. Tipped

2829
02:42:37,840 --> 02:42:41,520
Speaker 2: workers still have to report their tips as income. So

2830
02:42:42,360 --> 02:42:45,320
Speaker 2: there's a lot of things going on here. One this

2831
02:42:45,400 --> 02:42:48,039
Speaker 2: is all all of the tax on tips off is temporary.

2832
02:42:48,040 --> 02:42:49,520
Speaker 2: We talked about this when it came out. It was

2833
02:42:49,520 --> 02:42:51,800
Speaker 2: designed to sort of phase out the moment Trump leaves

2834
02:42:51,800 --> 02:42:55,680
Speaker 2: office or supposed to leave office, and b. Dordash also

2835
02:42:55,720 --> 02:42:57,600
Speaker 2: later had to say oh no, no, no, no, she did

2836
02:42:57,600 --> 02:43:02,600
Speaker 2: not save eleven thousand dollars in tax money on tips.

2837
02:43:03,160 --> 02:43:05,000
Speaker 2: They were like, no, no, no, she made eleven thousand

2838
02:43:05,040 --> 02:43:06,959
Speaker 2: dollars in tips and didn't have to pay taxes on it.

2839
02:43:07,680 --> 02:43:11,279
Speaker 2: But first off, she did not make eleven thousand dollars

2840
02:43:11,280 --> 02:43:14,400
Speaker 2: on tips. Like, you can't make eleven thousand dollars in

2841
02:43:14,400 --> 02:43:18,960
Speaker 2: tips doing DoorDash delivery. It's basically impossible. And I'm very

2842
02:43:19,000 --> 02:43:21,959
Speaker 2: sure that she didn't do this because also if you

2843
02:43:22,000 --> 02:43:23,720
Speaker 2: look at and the Guardian with you or not the Guardian,

2844
02:43:23,760 --> 02:43:26,959
Speaker 2: I'm ink with you some of the earlier you know, interviews,

2845
02:43:27,000 --> 02:43:29,160
Speaker 2: because she's been on a PR circuit about this for

2846
02:43:29,200 --> 02:43:31,240
Speaker 2: a while. She was on Fox News, and on Fox

2847
02:43:31,280 --> 02:43:34,560
Speaker 2: News she claims that she'd saved three to four thousand

2848
02:43:34,640 --> 02:43:37,920
Speaker 2: dollars and that eventually that like number amount of money

2849
02:43:37,920 --> 02:43:40,360
Speaker 2: that she'd saved eventually gets bumped up to eleven thousand.

2850
02:43:40,480 --> 02:43:43,520
Speaker 2: I think, though, what happened is that she maybe got

2851
02:43:44,200 --> 02:43:47,400
Speaker 2: she's claiming originally that she got like three thousand dollars

2852
02:43:47,400 --> 02:43:50,480
Speaker 2: in tips. There's also another issue here, which is at

2853
02:43:50,520 --> 02:43:53,360
Speaker 2: like eleven thousand dollars, it's like not clear if that's

2854
02:43:53,400 --> 02:43:55,720
Speaker 2: even enough money to qualify as having to pay income

2855
02:43:55,760 --> 02:43:59,160
Speaker 2: taxes in Alaska. Like this is all, this is all

2856
02:43:59,200 --> 02:44:01,600
Speaker 2: basically just a night there. And but the reason this

2857
02:44:01,640 --> 02:44:04,920
Speaker 2: is all actually happening is that the note tax on

2858
02:44:04,959 --> 02:44:10,560
Speaker 2: tips thing is this giant pr campaign that DoorDash, particularly

2859
02:44:10,600 --> 02:44:13,760
Speaker 2: DoorDash but also some of the other uh, some of

2860
02:44:13,800 --> 02:44:17,480
Speaker 2: the other companies have been doing as basically a propaganda

2861
02:44:17,520 --> 02:44:20,200
Speaker 2: thing in order to avoid there being attention on the

2862
02:44:20,200 --> 02:44:22,640
Speaker 2: fact that they just don't pay their workers a living

2863
02:44:22,680 --> 02:44:26,840
Speaker 2: wage and what so. One of the really important things

2864
02:44:26,840 --> 02:44:29,800
Speaker 2: that's almost never talked about with DoorDash and with with

2865
02:44:29,920 --> 02:44:33,560
Speaker 2: all of these sort of like these these delivery apps, right,

2866
02:44:34,080 --> 02:44:37,200
Speaker 2: is that if you are a restaurant worker and you're

2867
02:44:37,200 --> 02:44:39,080
Speaker 2: making something for a DoorDash order, and this particularly like

2868
02:44:39,120 --> 02:44:41,200
Speaker 2: you know, for example, if you work at a coffee shop, right,

2869
02:44:42,000 --> 02:44:46,840
Speaker 2: you don't get tips on DoorDash orders. So when when when?

2870
02:44:46,920 --> 02:44:49,120
Speaker 2: When when these things? When these orders started coming through

2871
02:44:49,640 --> 02:44:53,680
Speaker 2: in like sort of the past like five six, eight years, right,

2872
02:44:54,760 --> 02:44:59,080
Speaker 2: what happened was that this was basically a giant everyone

2873
02:44:59,080 --> 02:45:01,720
Speaker 2: who's working like in a restaurant or in a in

2874
02:45:01,720 --> 02:45:03,720
Speaker 2: like a cafe or whatever, you're getting it from those

2875
02:45:03,760 --> 02:45:05,840
Speaker 2: people all had massive speed ups where they just don't

2876
02:45:05,879 --> 02:45:07,280
Speaker 2: get and they don't and they don't get paid the

2877
02:45:07,320 --> 02:45:09,760
Speaker 2: regular tips that they would you know, be relying on

2878
02:45:09,840 --> 02:45:11,879
Speaker 2: to even sort of have a living gage wage. Right,

2879
02:45:11,959 --> 02:45:15,200
Speaker 2: So these people all got speed ups. And then on

2880
02:45:15,280 --> 02:45:18,520
Speaker 2: top of that, right, so you are, if you're ordering

2881
02:45:18,520 --> 02:45:20,840
Speaker 2: from one of these sites, right, you're probably are paying

2882
02:45:20,840 --> 02:45:24,920
Speaker 2: a tip. But that tip money has basically been you know,

2883
02:45:24,959 --> 02:45:27,200
Speaker 2: it's been extracted from the restaurant workers. But then now

2884
02:45:27,200 --> 02:45:30,480
Speaker 2: it's being used as a way to subsidize, right, as

2885
02:45:30,480 --> 02:45:33,760
Speaker 2: a way to subsidize door Dash not paying actual fucking wages.

2886
02:45:34,760 --> 02:45:38,200
Speaker 2: And so what this entire project is is is it's

2887
02:45:38,280 --> 02:45:42,720
Speaker 2: this It's this giant attempt to basically continue this process

2888
02:45:42,760 --> 02:45:45,280
Speaker 2: and solidify this process and stop all of the organizing

2889
02:45:45,280 --> 02:45:47,640
Speaker 2: campaigns that have been happening against door Dash to get

2890
02:45:47,640 --> 02:45:51,000
Speaker 2: them to like actually fucking pay people. And what's happening

2891
02:45:51,040 --> 02:45:53,039
Speaker 2: instead is that they're trying They're trying to shift everyone's

2892
02:45:53,040 --> 02:45:55,080
Speaker 2: focus to like, oh, hey, we can give you like

2893
02:45:55,200 --> 02:45:58,360
Speaker 2: no tax on tips, even though what these tips are

2894
02:45:58,400 --> 02:46:01,000
Speaker 2: and what the system that they've built is is is

2895
02:46:01,080 --> 02:46:05,360
Speaker 2: it system to basically exploit both restaurant workers and also

2896
02:46:05,400 --> 02:46:07,400
Speaker 2: specifically to make sure they don't ever have to fucking

2897
02:46:07,440 --> 02:46:10,760
Speaker 2: pay their workers any amount of money. And that's the

2898
02:46:10,879 --> 02:46:14,880
Speaker 2: actual that's the actual political ramifications of what's happening here

2899
02:46:14,959 --> 02:46:20,039
Speaker 2: beyond guy has funny crash out in social media, and

2900
02:46:20,160 --> 02:46:23,040
Speaker 2: I think it's very bleak that there's been basically no

2901
02:46:23,160 --> 02:46:28,200
Speaker 2: coverage of the sort of totality of what this is

2902
02:46:28,240 --> 02:46:28,959
Speaker 2: doing to people.

2903
02:46:30,200 --> 02:46:34,119
Speaker 7: To circle back to the potentiality of the new Prime

2904
02:46:34,120 --> 02:46:39,960
Speaker 7: Minister of Hungary prosecuting the former corrupt administration, let's turn

2905
02:46:40,160 --> 02:46:45,200
Speaker 7: to California. The former front runner in the California governor's race,

2906
02:46:45,280 --> 02:46:47,800
Speaker 7: Eric Swalwell, dropped out of the election last week and

2907
02:46:47,840 --> 02:46:52,240
Speaker 7: subsequently resigned from Congress amidst sexual assault allegations from multiple women.

2908
02:46:53,680 --> 02:46:57,520
Speaker 7: The new front runner is billionaire Tom Steyer, who ran

2909
02:46:57,560 --> 02:47:00,520
Speaker 7: for president back in twenty twenty. You might remember him

2910
02:47:00,680 --> 02:47:04,880
Speaker 7: from the Yeah, good, okay clip of where he tried

2911
02:47:04,879 --> 02:47:07,600
Speaker 7: to talk to Bernie Sanders as Bernie and Elizabeth Warren

2912
02:47:07,640 --> 02:47:10,600
Speaker 7: were beefing on stage after a presidential debate.

2913
02:47:11,879 --> 02:47:13,600
Speaker 2: Well, is she the guy? Is she the guy who

2914
02:47:13,640 --> 02:47:16,440
Speaker 2: had that story about killing someone in Vietnam? Or was

2915
02:47:16,480 --> 02:47:18,600
Speaker 2: that was another one of the unhinged guys that.

2916
02:47:19,080 --> 02:47:22,960
Speaker 7: Ye Stire wasn't super unhinged. He was a little bit boring,

2917
02:47:23,879 --> 02:47:27,280
Speaker 7: but nominally one of the more progressive people in that

2918
02:47:27,400 --> 02:47:30,480
Speaker 7: overstuffed race despite being a billionaire. A lot of his

2919
02:47:30,600 --> 02:47:35,199
Speaker 7: poll is talking about we should tax billionaires like me more.

2920
02:47:35,280 --> 02:47:37,520
Speaker 7: I know, I'm a billionaire. I'll be fine. That's kind

2921
02:47:37,520 --> 02:47:39,680
Speaker 7: of his that's kind of part of his stick.

2922
02:47:40,080 --> 02:47:43,000
Speaker 1: Look, my opinion is as a former Californian and just

2923
02:47:43,040 --> 02:47:46,920
Speaker 1: someone who's voted in California in the long grand history

2924
02:47:46,959 --> 02:47:51,840
Speaker 1: of California governors, he would be one of the better options.

2925
02:47:52,080 --> 02:47:57,800
Speaker 1: That California is fat, which is the bar, really low bar.

2926
02:47:58,600 --> 02:48:01,119
Speaker 5: Yeah, and the race this year is just shite.

2927
02:48:01,440 --> 02:48:06,440
Speaker 1: It's it's again like Arnold Schwarzenegger was the governor and

2928
02:48:06,520 --> 02:48:08,240
Speaker 1: like firmly middle of the pack.

2929
02:48:08,720 --> 02:48:11,640
Speaker 5: Like it's absolute bollocks. Now, Like sorry, I know I'm

2930
02:48:11,640 --> 02:48:14,680
Speaker 5: saying very British words, but it is upsetting.

2931
02:48:14,959 --> 02:48:18,879
Speaker 7: It is funny to describe the California governor's racist bollocks.

2932
02:48:19,120 --> 02:48:22,280
Speaker 1: It's bollocks many times.

2933
02:48:22,320 --> 02:48:25,000
Speaker 5: I have to live here, I have to pay taxes

2934
02:48:25,000 --> 02:48:25,959
Speaker 5: to these clowns.

2935
02:48:26,320 --> 02:48:30,080
Speaker 1: I mean, it's California, baby, Like you're gonna periodically have

2936
02:48:30,160 --> 02:48:34,039
Speaker 1: governor raises that are just like shit shows, largely to

2937
02:48:34,160 --> 02:48:36,000
Speaker 1: provide content for the media.

2938
02:48:36,240 --> 02:48:37,400
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah.

2939
02:48:37,680 --> 02:48:37,920
Speaker 4: Now.

2940
02:48:38,080 --> 02:48:41,920
Speaker 7: This week, Stier released part of his immigration platform titled

2941
02:48:42,200 --> 02:48:48,320
Speaker 7: how California Can Put Ice in Jail, echoing cries that

2942
02:48:48,520 --> 02:48:52,360
Speaker 7: activists have been tried to circulate into popular consciousness for

2943
02:48:52,560 --> 02:48:57,440
Speaker 7: the past year. Now, Stier doesn't just advocate for ICE

2944
02:48:57,480 --> 02:49:01,520
Speaker 7: to be abolished, which he does, but says in this

2945
02:49:01,600 --> 02:49:05,680
Speaker 7: new platform released on substack, quote, it's not enough for

2946
02:49:05,800 --> 02:49:09,039
Speaker 7: Democrats to simply engage in rhetoric and quote unquote stand

2947
02:49:09,080 --> 02:49:13,039
Speaker 7: against Ice or Trump. California must build a system that

2948
02:49:13,160 --> 02:49:16,800
Speaker 7: fights fire with fire to stop this authoritarian takeover. We

2949
02:49:16,879 --> 02:49:19,320
Speaker 7: must counter Ice head on and go after both their

2950
02:49:19,360 --> 02:49:22,720
Speaker 7: agents on the streets and their leadership within the DHS.

2951
02:49:23,080 --> 02:49:25,200
Speaker 7: How do we do this the same way we took

2952
02:49:25,240 --> 02:49:28,120
Speaker 7: on the mob, put ICE agents and their leadership in

2953
02:49:28,200 --> 02:49:30,800
Speaker 7: jail for their crimes, because that's how you take on

2954
02:49:31,000 --> 02:49:35,640
Speaker 7: a violent extremist group and win unquote. Steyer promises to

2955
02:49:35,680 --> 02:49:38,720
Speaker 7: do five things as governor to build this strategy to

2956
02:49:38,879 --> 02:49:43,680
Speaker 7: take on Ice. First, passing aggressive legislation building on current

2957
02:49:43,800 --> 02:49:48,520
Speaker 7: California statutes to outlaw any law enforcement agency from profiling

2958
02:49:48,879 --> 02:49:53,959
Speaker 7: based on race, ethnicity, language, occupation, or location. This directly

2959
02:49:53,959 --> 02:49:58,560
Speaker 7: takes on the Kavanagh stops, which were approved last fall.

2960
02:49:59,080 --> 02:50:01,640
Speaker 5: And a lot of others Supreme Court decisions of for instance,

2961
02:50:01,680 --> 02:50:03,359
Speaker 5: Board of Patrol operates under.

2962
02:50:05,160 --> 02:50:09,000
Speaker 7: Then, Stier says he'll grant the state Attorney general authority

2963
02:50:09,000 --> 02:50:13,560
Speaker 7: to hold ICE's leadership accountable for violence by pursuing quote

2964
02:50:13,640 --> 02:50:18,680
Speaker 7: unquote supervisory liability. Stire writes that quote this body of

2965
02:50:18,760 --> 02:50:22,520
Speaker 7: law empowers the California justice system to criminally prosecute and

2966
02:50:22,560 --> 02:50:26,200
Speaker 7: imprison not just the ICE agents who are committing these crimes,

2967
02:50:26,480 --> 02:50:28,840
Speaker 7: but the leadership directing them to do so.

2968
02:50:29,240 --> 02:50:29,680
Speaker 3: Unquote.

2969
02:50:31,000 --> 02:50:34,359
Speaker 7: Stire promise is to appoint and fund a special investigative

2970
02:50:34,480 --> 02:50:38,959
Speaker 7: unit that's specifically tasked with enforcing these California laws, quote,

2971
02:50:39,080 --> 02:50:43,000
Speaker 7: including laws related to the conditions at detention facilities. This

2972
02:50:43,200 --> 02:50:46,000
Speaker 7: unit will collect the evidence the Attorney General can use

2973
02:50:46,200 --> 02:50:48,480
Speaker 7: to prosecute offenders and their leadership.

2974
02:50:48,959 --> 02:50:49,279
Speaker 3: Quote.

2975
02:50:50,440 --> 02:50:54,359
Speaker 7: That's how he plans to take on ICE and leadership

2976
02:50:54,400 --> 02:50:59,039
Speaker 7: at the DHS and to prosecute crimes committed by ICE agents. Now,

2977
02:50:59,080 --> 02:51:02,240
Speaker 7: Stire also says that he will quote bring those detained

2978
02:51:02,280 --> 02:51:06,800
Speaker 7: and kidnapped by ICE back home quote by expanding the

2979
02:51:06,840 --> 02:51:11,400
Speaker 7: immigration legal defense infrastructure in the state of California, including

2980
02:51:11,440 --> 02:51:16,879
Speaker 7: funding for quote more attorneys, investigators, and accredited representatives, as

2981
02:51:16,879 --> 02:51:20,000
Speaker 7: well as legal aid and law school programs to assist

2982
02:51:20,080 --> 02:51:24,080
Speaker 7: and help those who have been imprisoned without due process unquote.

2983
02:51:25,000 --> 02:51:27,480
Speaker 5: This is the one like that I'd like. So there

2984
02:51:27,480 --> 02:51:30,080
Speaker 5: are counties in California the fund that we had an

2985
02:51:30,080 --> 02:51:31,840
Speaker 5: episode about this about two years ago, right that there

2986
02:51:31,840 --> 02:51:36,160
Speaker 5: will fund legal defense for migrants. Traditionally this has been

2987
02:51:38,080 --> 02:51:41,840
Speaker 5: Ice works around this by moving people who have that

2988
02:51:41,959 --> 02:51:45,120
Speaker 5: legal representation out of the state as quickly as they

2989
02:51:45,160 --> 02:51:49,760
Speaker 5: can and then refusing or making it very hard for

2990
02:51:49,840 --> 02:51:53,920
Speaker 5: WebEx motions for their attorneys to attend their hearings remotely.

2991
02:51:54,680 --> 02:51:57,840
Speaker 5: And what that does is effectively like bleeds to program, right,

2992
02:51:57,840 --> 02:52:00,160
Speaker 5: because then this attorney has to fly to Texas for

2993
02:52:00,200 --> 02:52:06,200
Speaker 5: a fifteen minute hearing about rescheduling or something similar. I

2994
02:52:06,200 --> 02:52:08,800
Speaker 5: would need to There's a lot of other stuff here,

2995
02:52:08,840 --> 02:52:12,039
Speaker 5: like law school programs. That's interesting. I don't know what

2996
02:52:12,080 --> 02:52:16,400
Speaker 5: those would be. There needs to be something that stops

2997
02:52:16,480 --> 02:52:19,720
Speaker 5: them doing that, because that is what they did under

2998
02:52:19,760 --> 02:52:23,880
Speaker 5: Biden too, like a this is not a Trump era thing.

2999
02:52:23,920 --> 02:52:27,760
Speaker 5: This is very much something that happened under Biden, and

3000
02:52:27,800 --> 02:52:32,520
Speaker 5: it will happen again if the state of California does

3001
02:52:32,560 --> 02:52:35,840
Speaker 5: this on a statewide level, I will imagine, I would imagine,

3002
02:52:36,200 --> 02:52:38,960
Speaker 5: especially like let's entertain the idea that we have an

3003
02:52:39,000 --> 02:52:41,520
Speaker 5: election in twenty twenty eight, we have a Democrat president,

3004
02:52:42,480 --> 02:52:46,600
Speaker 5: I still has a massively expanded detention capacity. It could

3005
02:52:46,720 --> 02:52:50,360
Speaker 5: very easily move people out of California very quickly, and

3006
02:52:50,440 --> 02:52:52,680
Speaker 5: so we need, like there need to be awareness of that.

3007
02:52:52,959 --> 02:52:56,000
Speaker 5: I would also say that, like, one of the tools

3008
02:52:56,000 --> 02:52:57,880
Speaker 5: that I don't see mentioned here that I think should

3009
02:52:57,920 --> 02:53:02,040
Speaker 5: be mentioned is SB fifty four in CALIFORNI SB fifty four.

3010
02:53:02,280 --> 02:53:04,360
Speaker 5: They're obviously there are different SB fifty four when I'm

3011
02:53:04,360 --> 02:53:07,440
Speaker 5: talking about a California Values Act here, the one that

3012
02:53:07,760 --> 02:53:13,360
Speaker 5: prohibits law enforcement cooperation except for cerchin exemptions with immigration authorities.

3013
02:53:13,680 --> 02:53:17,080
Speaker 5: That already exists. It's already there. And like this is

3014
02:53:17,600 --> 02:53:20,160
Speaker 5: his statements, pretty brief for his PDFs, only three pages.

3015
02:53:20,680 --> 02:53:23,360
Speaker 5: It might not go into all this detail. I would

3016
02:53:23,520 --> 02:53:25,840
Speaker 5: like to see that flagged, at least in in further

3017
02:53:25,920 --> 02:53:28,080
Speaker 5: detail or when he's speaking about this, right, because SB

3018
02:53:28,120 --> 02:53:34,880
Speaker 5: fifty four prosecutions of cops are important, right, because there

3019
02:53:34,879 --> 02:53:38,840
Speaker 5: are California agencies which appear to be flouting California law

3020
02:53:39,320 --> 02:53:44,320
Speaker 5: in order to comply with Trump's immigration goals. And if

3021
02:53:44,360 --> 02:53:46,400
Speaker 5: we don't do that first, then I have a lot

3022
02:53:46,480 --> 02:53:48,119
Speaker 5: less faith that any of this other shit is going

3023
02:53:48,160 --> 02:53:48,560
Speaker 5: to matter.

3024
02:53:50,080 --> 02:53:54,720
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, obviously, funding legal representation for immigrants regardless,

3025
02:53:54,720 --> 02:53:58,600
Speaker 7: like is a good thing. But it but the effect

3026
02:53:58,600 --> 02:54:02,280
Speaker 7: that it could have could be curtailed by Ice, as

3027
02:54:02,360 --> 02:54:04,280
Speaker 7: James is said, by moving people quickly out of state.

3028
02:54:04,320 --> 02:54:10,520
Speaker 7: And it's unclear if Stier is also talking about trying

3029
02:54:10,560 --> 02:54:13,879
Speaker 7: to help trying to help residents of California.

3030
02:54:14,120 --> 02:54:16,240
Speaker 5: Is it people who Is it people who reside in

3031
02:54:16,280 --> 02:54:18,440
Speaker 5: California and have been taken by ICE? Or is it

3032
02:54:18,480 --> 02:54:21,880
Speaker 5: people who are in iced detention in California California? Yeah,

3033
02:54:21,920 --> 02:54:24,879
Speaker 5: Like those are different categories, right like, anyone or any

3034
02:54:25,000 --> 02:54:27,720
Speaker 5: other people in immigration attention broadly in California, to include

3035
02:54:27,720 --> 02:54:29,960
Speaker 5: anyone who would cross the southern border and then be detained,

3036
02:54:30,040 --> 02:54:32,320
Speaker 5: right Like, this is all stuff that I'd like to

3037
02:54:32,320 --> 02:54:34,480
Speaker 5: see fleshed out. Maybe it will be. I am going

3038
02:54:34,560 --> 02:54:36,600
Speaker 5: to email his office and ask some of these questions.

3039
02:54:37,720 --> 02:54:40,760
Speaker 7: The last thing that Stier has in this five list

3040
02:54:40,800 --> 02:54:43,600
Speaker 7: of promises is promised to launch a statewide no Your

3041
02:54:43,640 --> 02:54:48,920
Speaker 7: Rights public education and public awareness campaign, and Stire writes

3042
02:54:49,000 --> 02:54:53,920
Speaker 7: quote backed by expanded protections against racial profiling. Legal representation

3043
02:54:54,040 --> 02:54:57,879
Speaker 7: empowers detained individuals to report ICE's crimes to the Special

3044
02:54:57,920 --> 02:55:01,680
Speaker 7: Investigator and California's Attorney General and take the agents to

3045
02:55:01,800 --> 02:55:05,680
Speaker 7: court unquote. So he sees all these things like working

3046
02:55:06,000 --> 02:55:11,279
Speaker 7: in conjunction together to prosecute ICE agents and give immigrants

3047
02:55:11,360 --> 02:55:14,280
Speaker 7: legal representation so that this so that the investigative unit

3048
02:55:14,320 --> 02:55:19,600
Speaker 7: can be aware of certain crimes by ICE agents. It's

3049
02:55:20,000 --> 02:55:24,880
Speaker 7: the most that I've seen any politician like put down

3050
02:55:24,920 --> 02:55:28,120
Speaker 7: as like an actual plan to go after ICE. Like

3051
02:55:28,440 --> 02:55:30,520
Speaker 7: some other people have employed this sort of this sort

3052
02:55:30,520 --> 02:55:33,560
Speaker 7: of rhetoric, but in terms of actually producing a plan

3053
02:55:33,760 --> 02:55:36,800
Speaker 7: to go about this, this is the most detailed that

3054
02:55:36,879 --> 02:55:39,520
Speaker 7: I've seen. And as James said, it'll be good to

3055
02:55:39,640 --> 02:55:42,560
Speaker 7: learn more about how he envisions this actually going into

3056
02:55:42,600 --> 02:55:45,560
Speaker 7: effect and those certain details that it would be nice

3057
02:55:45,600 --> 02:55:50,520
Speaker 7: to have more detail on. But as as as rhetoric

3058
02:55:50,560 --> 02:55:52,640
Speaker 7: and as as an actual policy proposal, this is like

3059
02:55:52,680 --> 02:55:55,879
Speaker 7: the most advanced thing I've seen on actually trying to

3060
02:55:55,959 --> 02:55:57,640
Speaker 7: prosecute ICE and DHS.

3061
02:55:58,520 --> 02:56:00,800
Speaker 5: All Right, so it's talk a little bit more about

3062
02:56:00,800 --> 02:56:05,520
Speaker 5: immigration things around the topic. First and foremost in this

3063
02:56:05,600 --> 02:56:08,440
Speaker 5: what I want to talk about is this court filing

3064
02:56:08,480 --> 02:56:12,039
Speaker 5: by the ACLU and associated groups pertaining to the South

3065
02:56:12,120 --> 02:56:18,240
Speaker 5: Florida Soft Sided Facility South aka Alligator Alcatraz. Right. The

3066
02:56:18,360 --> 02:56:21,880
Speaker 5: court filing has some really disturbing stuff and it basically

3067
02:56:21,920 --> 02:56:24,680
Speaker 5: details what they claim to be the continued abuse of

3068
02:56:24,720 --> 02:56:27,960
Speaker 5: detainees despite a court order that should have prohibited some

3069
02:56:28,000 --> 02:56:30,959
Speaker 5: of this or prevented it. Rather, in their filing they

3070
02:56:30,959 --> 02:56:33,160
Speaker 5: are led to the attorneys were prevented from meeting with

3071
02:56:33,200 --> 02:56:38,040
Speaker 5: their clients, forced to make appointments, and we've seen some

3072
02:56:38,080 --> 02:56:40,000
Speaker 5: reporting on the physical abuse. I have not seen as

3073
02:56:40,080 --> 02:56:43,320
Speaker 5: much discussion of this, which I think is extremely concerning.

3074
02:56:43,680 --> 02:56:47,480
Speaker 5: Attorneys have been asked to submit copies of legal documents

3075
02:56:48,320 --> 02:56:51,360
Speaker 5: that they are bringing or to go over with their

3076
02:56:51,360 --> 02:56:55,000
Speaker 5: clients right like this would be a very clear violation

3077
02:56:55,120 --> 02:56:58,199
Speaker 5: of their attorney client privilege right that those communications should

3078
02:56:58,240 --> 02:57:01,840
Speaker 5: be private between the attorney and the client. And the

3079
02:57:01,959 --> 02:57:05,480
Speaker 5: facility denied detainees access to phones. This was part of

3080
02:57:05,520 --> 02:57:08,039
Speaker 5: the previous co order. They were to have access to

3081
02:57:08,080 --> 02:57:10,960
Speaker 5: phones and communications with their attorneys as well as some

3082
02:57:11,000 --> 02:57:12,840
Speaker 5: other stuff. They had to be advised of their rights

3083
02:57:12,920 --> 02:57:17,480
Speaker 5: posters explaining some of this stuff. This resulted in demands

3084
02:57:17,520 --> 02:57:19,840
Speaker 5: and the parts of the detainees to restore their access

3085
02:57:19,879 --> 02:57:22,280
Speaker 5: to phones. I want to quote at length from the

3086
02:57:22,320 --> 02:57:26,000
Speaker 5: filing here just so I don't make any false representations.

3087
02:57:26,520 --> 02:57:26,880
Speaker 2: Quote.

3088
02:57:27,080 --> 02:57:29,560
Speaker 5: After not having access to phone calls all day, people

3089
02:57:29,560 --> 02:57:32,240
Speaker 5: in their cages were getting frustrated with the situation, as

3090
02:57:32,320 --> 02:57:34,240
Speaker 5: these phone calls are the only way people can contact

3091
02:57:34,320 --> 02:57:38,359
Speaker 5: loved ones, speak with and secure an attorney. Detained individuals

3092
02:57:38,360 --> 02:57:41,760
Speaker 5: in mister Morphi and mister Hernandez Galband's cage began complaining

3093
02:57:41,800 --> 02:57:45,040
Speaker 5: loudly about the phones not working. Mister Morphi and mister

3094
02:57:45,080 --> 02:57:48,200
Speaker 5: Hernandez Galband both reported that several guards who work for

3095
02:57:48,280 --> 02:57:52,560
Speaker 5: crs a's, the entity managing the facility, came to the

3096
02:57:52,600 --> 02:57:57,519
Speaker 5: cage and were taunting the detained individuals inside. Detained individuals

3097
02:57:57,560 --> 02:58:00,920
Speaker 5: began raising their voices in protests. The guards got more

3098
02:58:00,959 --> 02:58:04,160
Speaker 5: aggressive and were yelling and threatening to enter the cage.

3099
02:58:04,200 --> 02:58:06,800
Speaker 5: Mister Hernandez Galband went to the guards to try and

3100
02:58:06,840 --> 02:58:09,480
Speaker 5: deesperate the situation and advise the guards not to enter

3101
02:58:09,480 --> 02:58:12,160
Speaker 5: the cage at that time, fearing it would lead to violence.

3102
02:58:13,160 --> 02:58:16,280
Speaker 5: Mister Morphy and mister Hernandez Galband both reported that another

3103
02:58:16,280 --> 02:58:19,800
Speaker 5: detained individual then went to the guards and an officer

3104
02:58:19,840 --> 02:58:24,800
Speaker 5: punched that person. Then the officers targeted mister Morphy. Neither

3105
02:58:24,879 --> 02:58:28,440
Speaker 5: mister Morphy nor mister Hernande's garband know why they targeted

3106
02:58:28,480 --> 02:58:31,560
Speaker 5: mister Morphy. The guards threw mister Morphy to the ground

3107
02:58:31,720 --> 02:58:35,200
Speaker 5: and severely beat him up. An officer came in and

3108
02:58:35,240 --> 02:58:37,680
Speaker 5: punched mister Morphy in his right eye and began to

3109
02:58:37,720 --> 02:58:40,320
Speaker 5: beat him. He was taken out the cage and thrown

3110
02:58:40,360 --> 02:58:43,600
Speaker 5: to the ground and beaten by multiple guards. He suffered

3111
02:58:43,640 --> 02:58:46,480
Speaker 5: injuries to his shoulder and arm, and was kicked in

3112
02:58:46,520 --> 02:58:49,760
Speaker 5: the head. A guard placed their knee on his neck

3113
02:58:49,920 --> 02:58:53,200
Speaker 5: when the guard was trying to restrain him. Mister Morphy

3114
02:58:53,280 --> 02:58:55,320
Speaker 5: does not know which guards are involved, as they do

3115
02:58:55,360 --> 02:58:58,680
Speaker 5: not wear id badges, but he believes he would recognize them.

3116
02:58:59,040 --> 02:59:01,520
Speaker 5: The officers beat so for other people during this incident

3117
02:59:01,920 --> 02:59:05,880
Speaker 5: and broke another detained individual's wrist. The officers then pepper

3118
02:59:05,879 --> 02:59:09,680
Speaker 5: sprayed everyone in the cage. A detained older gentleman passed

3119
02:59:09,720 --> 02:59:15,039
Speaker 5: out as he could not breathe. That's pretty horrific, like.

3120
02:59:16,959 --> 02:59:19,080
Speaker 7: This is just one day in one detention center.

3121
02:59:19,200 --> 02:59:21,560
Speaker 5: This I was going to say, this is one cage

3122
02:59:21,879 --> 02:59:25,959
Speaker 5: on one day in one facility. And like, if these

3123
02:59:26,000 --> 02:59:29,680
Speaker 5: people had not been brave enough to speak out, then

3124
02:59:29,720 --> 02:59:32,519
Speaker 5: we wouldn't know. Or if these people had been deported

3125
02:59:32,680 --> 02:59:35,840
Speaker 5: before they could speak out, we wouldn't know. Right, they

3126
02:59:35,840 --> 02:59:38,400
Speaker 5: didn't even have telephones to report this, if they hadn't

3127
02:59:38,440 --> 02:59:43,240
Speaker 5: had attorneys, we wouldn't know. Yeah, this is an insight

3128
02:59:43,280 --> 02:59:46,480
Speaker 5: into what's happening in this facility, and it is horrific.

3129
02:59:47,520 --> 02:59:49,480
Speaker 5: There are images that go with this, if people want

3130
02:59:49,480 --> 02:59:52,680
Speaker 5: to look them up. You can see some very clearly

3131
02:59:52,680 --> 02:59:55,520
Speaker 5: injured people, or you can see at least one very

3132
02:59:55,560 --> 02:59:56,440
Speaker 5: clearly injured person.

3133
02:59:57,360 --> 02:59:59,280
Speaker 7: Let's go on an ad break and then talk about

3134
02:59:59,280 --> 03:00:04,640
Speaker 7: Iran some all the part partails.

3135
03:00:12,480 --> 03:00:15,960
Speaker 5: All right, we are back and in our final segment

3136
03:00:16,000 --> 03:00:19,400
Speaker 5: of today's show, we're going to talk about the ongoing

3137
03:00:19,440 --> 03:00:23,280
Speaker 5: war with Iran. Right this past weekend, jd Vance and

3138
03:00:23,360 --> 03:00:28,200
Speaker 5: Jared Kushner's what a Steve Witcoff master negotiator, A guy

3139
03:00:28,240 --> 03:00:30,760
Speaker 5: who doesn't know the difference between a tweet that is

3140
03:00:30,800 --> 03:00:36,520
Speaker 5: public and a DM that is private. Incredible. They flew

3141
03:00:36,560 --> 03:00:39,200
Speaker 5: to meet an Iranian Delegation in Pakistan, which serves to

3142
03:00:39,360 --> 03:00:44,240
Speaker 5: mediate and host ceasefire talks between the United States and Iran. Ultimately,

3143
03:00:44,280 --> 03:00:47,680
Speaker 5: this did not result in an enduring agreement between the

3144
03:00:47,760 --> 03:00:51,440
Speaker 5: US and Iran, and as a result, the United States

3145
03:00:51,480 --> 03:00:55,520
Speaker 5: has begun blockading Iranian ports. So far, several vessels have

3146
03:00:55,560 --> 03:00:58,360
Speaker 5: been turned around by the US blockade, and at least

3147
03:00:58,360 --> 03:01:00,480
Speaker 5: one that tried to run it was eventually turned back,

3148
03:01:00,520 --> 03:01:04,360
Speaker 5: even though it attempted to hug the Iranian coastline in

3149
03:01:04,440 --> 03:01:09,440
Speaker 5: order to avoid consequences. The US Navy has also issued

3150
03:01:09,480 --> 03:01:12,440
Speaker 5: instructions which seemed to suggest that it could target shadow

3151
03:01:12,480 --> 03:01:16,160
Speaker 5: fleet vessels globally as part of the blockade if they're

3152
03:01:16,200 --> 03:01:20,440
Speaker 5: carrying a number of contraband items, which includes basically Iranian

3153
03:01:20,480 --> 03:01:26,480
Speaker 5: oil all its derivatives, weapons, some metals, and industrial supplies.

3154
03:01:26,800 --> 03:01:30,959
Speaker 5: It's a very broad list of contraband. In the thirteen

3155
03:01:31,040 --> 03:01:34,039
Speaker 5: claimed instances of ships being turned around so far, I

3156
03:01:34,120 --> 03:01:36,680
Speaker 5: have not seen any in which it was a physical interdiction.

3157
03:01:37,560 --> 03:01:40,080
Speaker 5: It seems that the United States ships contacted them by

3158
03:01:40,200 --> 03:01:44,200
Speaker 5: radio advising them of the blockade. The blockade has not

3159
03:01:44,600 --> 03:01:52,720
Speaker 5: currently stopped some types of cargoes entering Iran noticed a

3160
03:01:52,800 --> 03:01:56,600
Speaker 5: mariner suggests humanitarian supplies can enter, but those vessels are

3161
03:01:56,640 --> 03:02:02,240
Speaker 5: subject to inspection. If this causes a cooling effect or

3162
03:02:02,320 --> 03:02:05,160
Speaker 5: just a reduction in the ability of Iran to bring

3163
03:02:05,240 --> 03:02:09,199
Speaker 5: in more food, this could cause serious food shortages. There's

3164
03:02:08,920 --> 03:02:12,840
Speaker 5: a there's already been massive food price inflation since the war.

3165
03:02:12,879 --> 03:02:17,320
Speaker 5: Brigan and Iran had previously tried to work around this,

3166
03:02:17,520 --> 03:02:22,280
Speaker 5: but a complete blockade would make that harder. It does

3167
03:02:22,320 --> 03:02:25,160
Speaker 5: seem that negotiation between the US and Iran and ongoing.

3168
03:02:25,200 --> 03:02:28,200
Speaker 5: We're recording this on Thursday, and the latest thing that

3169
03:02:28,240 --> 03:02:31,440
Speaker 5: I had seen has suggested that Iran is saying it

3170
03:02:31,520 --> 03:02:35,199
Speaker 5: might allow traffic through the Strait if its assets are unfrozen.

3171
03:02:36,240 --> 03:02:39,480
Speaker 5: This hinges on the idea that Iran gets to decide

3172
03:02:39,520 --> 03:02:43,920
Speaker 5: who goes through the strait. Right, the strait is wider

3173
03:02:43,959 --> 03:02:48,360
Speaker 5: than twelve twelve miles is generally the territorial waters right

3174
03:02:49,320 --> 03:02:52,360
Speaker 5: just so it is international waters, So the idea that

3175
03:02:52,400 --> 03:02:56,240
Speaker 5: Iran controls it. If the US signs some kind of

3176
03:02:56,320 --> 03:02:59,680
Speaker 5: deal which implies or outright says, that would be a

3177
03:02:59,680 --> 03:03:03,800
Speaker 5: massive victory for a run right at least in that area. Meanwhile,

3178
03:03:03,840 --> 03:03:06,560
Speaker 5: the United States is amassing a massive naval force in

3179
03:03:06,600 --> 03:03:10,400
Speaker 5: the region with three carrier strike groups either there or

3180
03:03:10,440 --> 03:03:16,720
Speaker 5: heading there. That is approximately forty percent of the USA's navy. Interestingly,

3181
03:03:16,800 --> 03:03:21,280
Speaker 5: the George H. W. Bush is going around Africa to

3182
03:03:21,360 --> 03:03:21,800
Speaker 5: go there.

3183
03:03:21,879 --> 03:03:24,160
Speaker 7: The ship, not the man, that's correct, George H. W.

3184
03:03:24,240 --> 03:03:29,560
Speaker 5: Bush himself swimming, he's gonna wet to No, Yes, the

3185
03:03:30,280 --> 03:03:33,560
Speaker 5: United States ship George H. W. Bush is going around

3186
03:03:33,640 --> 03:03:38,880
Speaker 5: the southern tip of Africa. Geography understanders will notice that

3187
03:03:38,879 --> 03:03:42,039
Speaker 5: that is the long way. The short way would be

3188
03:03:42,080 --> 03:03:43,240
Speaker 5: through the Suez Canal.

3189
03:03:43,520 --> 03:03:47,160
Speaker 2: Right, Oh, no, they're doing They're doing the Russia the

3190
03:03:47,200 --> 03:03:50,879
Speaker 2: Resar Japanese war thing that always goes great for the

3191
03:03:50,920 --> 03:03:52,160
Speaker 2: imperial power.

3192
03:03:53,959 --> 03:03:56,160
Speaker 5: Moving because yeah, I'm guessing they're doing it because they

3193
03:03:56,200 --> 03:03:58,760
Speaker 5: don't want to get hit by yea many groups right

3194
03:03:59,000 --> 03:04:02,200
Speaker 5: going through the Red See And that seems to be

3195
03:04:02,240 --> 03:04:06,039
Speaker 5: the only explanation I can think of. Two Avenger class

3196
03:04:06,160 --> 03:04:09,959
Speaker 5: mind countermeas ships also left Singapore. They will also likely

3197
03:04:10,000 --> 03:04:15,039
Speaker 5: be headed to the region right for demining the straight Yeah. Meanwhile,

3198
03:04:15,640 --> 03:04:19,519
Speaker 5: it's worth noting that this ceasefire has not been universal,

3199
03:04:19,600 --> 03:04:23,200
Speaker 5: where bombing has not ceased. In Kurdistan. This week, a

3200
03:04:23,280 --> 03:04:26,519
Speaker 5: pesche Murger of the Commala of the toilers of Kurdistan.

3201
03:04:27,959 --> 03:04:32,240
Speaker 5: Ghazal Molan, a young Kurdish woman, died after sustaining injuries

3202
03:04:32,280 --> 03:04:36,280
Speaker 5: in a strike on Tuesday. It seems that it was

3203
03:04:36,440 --> 03:04:40,879
Speaker 5: very hard for the Kammala to find medical care for her.

3204
03:04:41,400 --> 03:04:43,600
Speaker 5: I'm going to quote from a piece by the Hannah

3205
03:04:43,640 --> 03:04:47,879
Speaker 5: human rights organization here quote. She then required urgent, higher

3206
03:04:47,959 --> 03:04:51,959
Speaker 5: level treatment, including advanced imaging, specialist trauma care, and intensive

3207
03:04:51,959 --> 03:04:56,359
Speaker 5: care support. Hannah has received serious allegations that the necessary

3208
03:04:56,400 --> 03:04:59,640
Speaker 5: treatment was not provided and that the subsequent efforts to

3209
03:04:59,680 --> 03:05:03,240
Speaker 5: secure your admission or transferred to other hospitals were delayed

3210
03:05:03,280 --> 03:05:06,440
Speaker 5: or refused. The central allegation under review is that once

3211
03:05:06,480 --> 03:05:08,640
Speaker 5: the case was understood to be connected to a drone

3212
03:05:08,680 --> 03:05:13,360
Speaker 5: strike and to carry political sensitivity, non medical considerations may

3213
03:05:13,360 --> 03:05:18,000
Speaker 5: have affected decisions concerning her admission and treatment. That's pretty

3214
03:05:18,000 --> 03:05:21,320
Speaker 5: bleak if it's true relativity, that this person could have survived,

3215
03:05:21,879 --> 03:05:27,760
Speaker 5: but hospitals either feared political consequences or being struck themselves,

3216
03:05:29,360 --> 03:05:32,440
Speaker 5: they decided. And there's a you can look at the

3217
03:05:32,480 --> 03:05:34,640
Speaker 5: show notes right that they link, and they talk about

3218
03:05:34,640 --> 03:05:36,760
Speaker 5: a number of hospitals that they basically drove her around

3219
03:05:36,840 --> 03:05:42,520
Speaker 5: trying to find care it's really heartbreaking. Again, other strikes

3220
03:05:42,640 --> 03:05:47,520
Speaker 5: have hit civilian facilities, including refugee camps sort of associated

3221
03:05:47,520 --> 03:05:50,440
Speaker 5: with the rogulati groups in Kurdistan, and that seems to

3222
03:05:50,480 --> 03:05:54,280
Speaker 5: be that there is no cease fire for the Kurds. Right.

3223
03:05:54,320 --> 03:05:57,440
Speaker 5: It's the long and the short of it. I run around,

3224
03:05:57,480 --> 03:06:00,480
Speaker 5: it's taking this time of peace negotiations to kind of

3225
03:06:01,440 --> 03:06:05,959
Speaker 5: reorganize its military and to reassess its supplies. Even they

3226
03:06:05,959 --> 03:06:10,280
Speaker 5: have dug out some missiles and anti air systems that

3227
03:06:10,320 --> 03:06:14,040
Speaker 5: were buried but not destroyed by strikes, and so they

3228
03:06:14,080 --> 03:06:17,440
Speaker 5: will be preparing for whatever comes next. If people want

3229
03:06:17,480 --> 03:06:19,879
Speaker 5: to know more about this, I made a whole episode

3230
03:06:20,560 --> 03:06:22,640
Speaker 5: which will have come out the day before this in

3231
03:06:22,680 --> 03:06:24,240
Speaker 5: the same feed, so you can listen to it there.

3232
03:06:25,360 --> 03:06:28,959
Speaker 7: This morning, also Trump announced a ceasefire deal for ten

3233
03:06:29,040 --> 03:06:33,920
Speaker 7: days between Israel and Lebanon. We'll see if that turns

3234
03:06:33,920 --> 03:06:36,360
Speaker 7: out to be real, if Israel well abide by this.

3235
03:06:36,600 --> 03:06:39,280
Speaker 7: But that is like as of for like an hour

3236
03:06:39,360 --> 03:06:42,480
Speaker 7: ago while we record Thursday afternoon.

3237
03:06:43,000 --> 03:06:45,959
Speaker 2: And it's worth noting there were literally thousands of violations

3238
03:06:45,959 --> 03:06:47,840
Speaker 2: with the last use fire that are on it's supposedly

3239
03:06:47,879 --> 03:06:54,240
Speaker 2: agreed to you with Lebanon. So yeah, yeah.

3240
03:06:54,280 --> 03:06:57,800
Speaker 5: Trump had said that it was a quote separate skirmish

3241
03:06:57,879 --> 03:07:01,720
Speaker 5: in Lebanon and thus didn't it wasn't included in the ceasefire,

3242
03:07:01,720 --> 03:07:03,160
Speaker 5: which is a hell of a way to describe what's

3243
03:07:03,160 --> 03:07:03,800
Speaker 5: happening there.

3244
03:07:04,480 --> 03:07:09,000
Speaker 7: For our last story, let's talk about Sam Altman. Last week,

3245
03:07:09,520 --> 03:07:14,600
Speaker 7: a twenty year old college student named Daniel Moranogama traveled

3246
03:07:14,720 --> 03:07:18,280
Speaker 7: from Texas to San Francisco, California, and at three point

3247
03:07:18,280 --> 03:07:22,360
Speaker 7: thirty am on April tenth, allegedly threw a molotov cocktail

3248
03:07:22,400 --> 03:07:26,520
Speaker 7: toward the home of open AI CEO Sam Altman. The

3249
03:07:26,560 --> 03:07:29,280
Speaker 7: molotov hit the top of the security gate on the

3250
03:07:29,360 --> 03:07:33,600
Speaker 7: driveway leading to Altman's residence. Then, at around five am,

3251
03:07:33,879 --> 03:07:37,800
Speaker 7: Moranogama arrived at the open Ai headquarters and tried to

3252
03:07:37,879 --> 03:07:40,320
Speaker 7: use a chair to break into the building through the

3253
03:07:40,320 --> 03:07:44,359
Speaker 7: glass doors, but was stopped by security. According to security

3254
03:07:44,360 --> 03:07:48,120
Speaker 7: personnel on site, Moranogama stated that he came to the

3255
03:07:48,160 --> 03:07:52,320
Speaker 7: headquarters to burn it down and kill anyone inside. A

3256
03:07:52,400 --> 03:07:57,520
Speaker 7: federal affidavit alleges that after detaining Moranogama, officers recovered quote,

3257
03:07:57,600 --> 03:08:01,600
Speaker 7: incendiary devices, a jug of keras, a blue lighter, and

3258
03:08:01,680 --> 03:08:07,200
Speaker 7: an ANTIAI Document unquote. This document was a three part

3259
03:08:07,240 --> 03:08:12,440
Speaker 7: manifesto apparently authored by Moranogama. The first part was titled

3260
03:08:12,480 --> 03:08:17,480
Speaker 7: quote your Last Warning and allegedly states that Moranogama quote

3261
03:08:17,760 --> 03:08:21,960
Speaker 7: killed slash attempted to kill Sam Altman, also writing quote,

3262
03:08:22,120 --> 03:08:24,600
Speaker 7: if I'm going to advocate for others to kill and

3263
03:08:24,640 --> 03:08:27,560
Speaker 7: commit crimes, that I must lead by example and show

3264
03:08:27,600 --> 03:08:32,359
Speaker 7: that I am fully sincere in my message. The document

3265
03:08:32,440 --> 03:08:35,840
Speaker 7: then listed the names and addresses of investors, board members,

3266
03:08:35,840 --> 03:08:39,040
Speaker 7: and executives of AI companies. The second part of the

3267
03:08:39,040 --> 03:08:41,840
Speaker 7: document was titled some more Words on the Matter of

3268
03:08:41,879 --> 03:08:46,360
Speaker 7: our Impending Extinction. This section discussed the purported risk AI

3269
03:08:46,480 --> 03:08:50,440
Speaker 7: poses to humanity. The third part of the document was

3270
03:08:50,480 --> 03:08:53,720
Speaker 7: a letter addressed quote to Sam Altman, if you make

3271
03:08:53,760 --> 03:08:57,800
Speaker 7: it and read some part quote, if by some miracle

3272
03:08:57,840 --> 03:09:00,640
Speaker 7: you live, then I would take this as a sign

3273
03:09:00,760 --> 03:09:06,320
Speaker 7: from the divine to redeem yourself unquote. Moronogama's Instagram user

3274
03:09:06,400 --> 03:09:09,760
Speaker 7: name was but larryan Jie Hottist, in reference to the

3275
03:09:09,800 --> 03:09:12,200
Speaker 7: crsede against AI in the Dune novels.

3276
03:09:12,959 --> 03:09:13,199
Speaker 5: Yeah.

3277
03:09:13,240 --> 03:09:16,560
Speaker 7: This account had a collection of Instagram stories saved about

3278
03:09:16,680 --> 03:09:19,920
Speaker 7: the existential threat of AI. Now we don't have a

3279
03:09:19,959 --> 03:09:23,760
Speaker 7: copy of this three part manifesto in full, but his

3280
03:09:23,920 --> 03:09:26,920
Speaker 7: sub stack is still online and it contains other writing

3281
03:09:27,080 --> 03:09:30,800
Speaker 7: about his belief that AI poses this existential threat to humanity.

3282
03:09:32,120 --> 03:09:35,600
Speaker 7: In this writing, his opposition to AI is not based

3283
03:09:35,640 --> 03:09:39,039
Speaker 7: on fears of disruptions to the economy, loss of jobs,

3284
03:09:39,120 --> 03:09:42,000
Speaker 7: or labor rights, but the belief that AI will become

3285
03:09:42,080 --> 03:09:46,640
Speaker 7: a superior race and wipe out or enslave humanity. In

3286
03:09:46,680 --> 03:09:49,640
Speaker 7: a post from January sixth, twenty twenty six, he writes

3287
03:09:49,680 --> 03:09:53,800
Speaker 7: that AI will quote lead to human extinction because of

3288
03:09:53,840 --> 03:09:58,680
Speaker 7: the quote rapid progress in artificial intelligence unquote, as well

3289
03:09:58,720 --> 03:10:03,039
Speaker 7: as that AI models are not aligned with humanity's interests.

3290
03:10:03,720 --> 03:10:07,000
Speaker 7: To quote this essay, ignore for a second these models

3291
03:10:07,080 --> 03:10:10,920
Speaker 7: current limitations or questions on how truly intelligent or conscious

3292
03:10:10,959 --> 03:10:13,800
Speaker 7: these models may actually be. The truth is all of

3293
03:10:13,800 --> 03:10:16,959
Speaker 7: these nuances are completely irrelevant to my argument. There are

3294
03:10:16,959 --> 03:10:20,080
Speaker 7: only two questions we should be concerned about at this moment.

3295
03:10:20,800 --> 03:10:23,760
Speaker 7: Is it willing to kill to preserve itself? And is

3296
03:10:23,800 --> 03:10:27,879
Speaker 7: it capable of doing so? Signs indicate that AI is

3297
03:10:27,959 --> 03:10:32,400
Speaker 7: willing and becoming potentially capable of doing both these things,

3298
03:10:32,840 --> 03:10:35,520
Speaker 7: and that is all that matters. We are dead if

3299
03:10:35,560 --> 03:10:40,320
Speaker 7: we do not act now unquote. He recommended that people

3300
03:10:40,400 --> 03:10:44,720
Speaker 7: read Eliezer Yudkowski's book If Anyone builds It, Everyone Dies,

3301
03:10:45,720 --> 03:10:49,520
Speaker 7: and other posts on his substack also mentioned Yudkowski's work.

3302
03:10:49,800 --> 03:10:53,280
Speaker 7: Who's one of the four fathers of quote unquote rationalism

3303
03:10:53,840 --> 03:10:58,840
Speaker 7: rationalist thought, and writes a lot about Ai Doom. Ai

3304
03:10:58,920 --> 03:11:01,120
Speaker 7: will bring apart the the end of humanity.

3305
03:11:01,400 --> 03:11:05,800
Speaker 1: This is very much a normal, like less wrong kind

3306
03:11:05,840 --> 03:11:09,680
Speaker 1: of mindset, right, Like, this guy's not normal. He's clearly

3307
03:11:09,840 --> 03:11:12,959
Speaker 1: suffering from some disordered thinking and is not like. This

3308
03:11:13,000 --> 03:11:17,000
Speaker 1: guy does not represent the average person who uses those things.

3309
03:11:17,560 --> 03:11:21,080
Speaker 1: But his justifications for what he did and his media

3310
03:11:21,200 --> 03:11:25,640
Speaker 1: diet is clearly all like less wrong stuff, all rationalist stuff,

3311
03:11:25,680 --> 03:11:29,320
Speaker 1: all Yudkowski stuff. So's he's been kind of marinating in that,

3312
03:11:29,720 --> 03:11:35,320
Speaker 1: and you know, this is what somebody who's not like

3313
03:11:36,440 --> 03:11:40,920
Speaker 1: this is unfortunately kind of the logical extent of Yodkowski's ideas,

3314
03:11:40,959 --> 03:11:43,000
Speaker 1: Like he would say he doesn't want anyone doing stuff

3315
03:11:43,040 --> 03:11:45,520
Speaker 1: like this, but his literal contention is that this is

3316
03:11:45,560 --> 03:11:48,600
Speaker 1: going to kill everyone and everything like and it will

3317
03:11:48,600 --> 03:11:51,120
Speaker 1: inevitably do it unless stopped. And if you really do

3318
03:11:51,240 --> 03:11:54,280
Speaker 1: believe that, you're kind of like left to act like

3319
03:11:54,320 --> 03:11:58,880
Speaker 1: these guys do. I think the responsible thing is for

3320
03:11:58,920 --> 03:12:01,960
Speaker 1: there to be an anti AI movement that's not rooted

3321
03:12:02,000 --> 03:12:05,120
Speaker 1: in nonsense, which is again why we do the stuff

3322
03:12:05,160 --> 03:12:07,360
Speaker 1: that we do, because I'm very much against a lot

3323
03:12:07,360 --> 03:12:09,240
Speaker 1: of this shit. Not because it's going to create a

3324
03:12:09,280 --> 03:12:12,680
Speaker 1: god that kills everybody, but because it makes the Internet

3325
03:12:12,720 --> 03:12:15,680
Speaker 1: a lot worse and makes human thinking a lot worse,

3326
03:12:15,959 --> 03:12:18,280
Speaker 1: and it puts a lot of money into shitty people's

3327
03:12:18,320 --> 03:12:21,680
Speaker 1: hands and is just often unnecessary in many of its

3328
03:12:21,680 --> 03:12:26,599
Speaker 1: applications and outwardly like making some things worse, and that's

3329
03:12:26,640 --> 03:12:27,160
Speaker 1: not great.

3330
03:12:27,720 --> 03:12:29,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, And like you know, if you want to talk

3331
03:12:29,000 --> 03:12:31,039
Speaker 2: about like oh this is actually going to like end humanity,

3332
03:12:31,040 --> 03:12:33,440
Speaker 2: it's like, well, yeah, it's also intensifying climate change, the

3333
03:12:33,480 --> 03:12:35,600
Speaker 2: thing that you would think these people would care about, but.

3334
03:12:35,600 --> 03:12:39,240
Speaker 1: Yeah not, I mean sure, yeah, it's like that's the

3335
03:12:39,480 --> 03:12:41,880
Speaker 1: that I'm not. I don't tend to focus on the

3336
03:12:42,480 --> 03:12:46,640
Speaker 1: fucking water use aspects of people complaining about AI because

3337
03:12:46,640 --> 03:12:48,959
Speaker 1: there's so many things we do that are like horrible

3338
03:12:49,760 --> 03:12:50,720
Speaker 1: in those terms.

3339
03:12:51,080 --> 03:12:53,320
Speaker 2: Well, I mean also just like like the energy, like the.

3340
03:12:56,000 --> 03:12:58,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, like the cost thing is massive.

3341
03:12:58,400 --> 03:13:02,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and like that is like we're just resources

3342
03:13:02,360 --> 03:13:05,440
Speaker 2: for but like scam bots.

3343
03:13:05,959 --> 03:13:09,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just useless and a lot of like a

3344
03:13:09,080 --> 03:13:11,160
Speaker 1: lot of what it's being used for is pointless. Like

3345
03:13:11,240 --> 03:13:14,440
Speaker 1: if you're able to, you know, create machines that are

3346
03:13:14,440 --> 03:13:18,199
Speaker 1: more accurately able to like scan for cancers or whatever, fine,

3347
03:13:19,240 --> 03:13:20,680
Speaker 1: I don't have a problem with that, but like, we

3348
03:13:20,720 --> 03:13:23,080
Speaker 1: don't need to be burning the resources that we're burning

3349
03:13:23,560 --> 03:13:28,679
Speaker 1: to replace like people writing local news articles with slop advertisements,

3350
03:13:28,879 --> 03:13:31,480
Speaker 1: you know, like that's not a benefit to society. And

3351
03:13:31,520 --> 03:13:35,000
Speaker 1: I'm really angry at it, and it's frustrating to see

3352
03:13:35,120 --> 03:13:39,680
Speaker 1: people getting radicalized to it literally attack AI people for

3353
03:13:39,720 --> 03:13:43,720
Speaker 1: bullshit reasons like and honestly, Altman's partly to blame for this.

3354
03:13:43,800 --> 03:13:45,920
Speaker 1: He's one of the people who has fanned the flames

3355
03:13:45,920 --> 03:13:47,760
Speaker 1: of we might be making an evil god.

3356
03:13:48,280 --> 03:13:50,680
Speaker 7: Yes, because that is really good for investors, because it

3357
03:13:50,720 --> 03:13:54,920
Speaker 7: makes the pain seem actually impressives.

3358
03:13:53,480 --> 03:13:54,320
Speaker 5: Like world changing.

3359
03:13:54,600 --> 03:13:55,960
Speaker 3: This is their preferred opposition.

3360
03:13:56,320 --> 03:13:58,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you are getting rich by saying I might

3361
03:13:58,560 --> 03:14:02,840
Speaker 1: be making sky nets, somebody stop me. Someone might stop you, Sam,

3362
03:14:03,200 --> 03:14:05,960
Speaker 1: you know, like realistically, don't do that.

3363
03:14:07,160 --> 03:14:13,280
Speaker 7: This substack also contains writing on pseudospiritual philosophy about the

3364
03:14:13,440 --> 03:14:17,800
Speaker 7: quote tree of ultimate reality, the operation of man, the

3365
03:14:17,879 --> 03:14:21,439
Speaker 7: genealogy of being, and the warrior and the martyr.

3366
03:14:21,280 --> 03:14:24,720
Speaker 5: Unquote sure man, a little too much Internet.

3367
03:14:25,160 --> 03:14:27,600
Speaker 7: Yeah, there's a lot of stuff there. But I want

3368
03:14:27,600 --> 03:14:31,400
Speaker 7: to briefly touch on this other essay about political extremism,

3369
03:14:31,800 --> 03:14:36,520
Speaker 7: where the writer Moro on Gama describes himself as a consequentialist,

3370
03:14:36,959 --> 03:14:41,280
Speaker 7: defends discrimination, and advocates for quote ending mass migration and

3371
03:14:41,320 --> 03:14:46,840
Speaker 7: initiating mass deportations. He proposes a system of IQ or

3372
03:14:47,000 --> 03:14:50,920
Speaker 7: merit based nationalism, basically a country where citizenship is determined

3373
03:14:50,959 --> 03:14:55,920
Speaker 7: by IQ, and a program to advance quote ethical eugenics

3374
03:14:55,959 --> 03:15:00,560
Speaker 7: in the third world to promote IQ growth genetically on weves.

3375
03:15:01,040 --> 03:15:01,320
Speaker 4: Geez.

3376
03:15:01,440 --> 03:15:04,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's also that's like amazingly this is one of

3377
03:15:04,640 --> 03:15:06,080
Speaker 2: these This is one of those sort of like you

3378
03:15:06,080 --> 03:15:07,680
Speaker 2: look at the Hong Kong protests and it's like they're

3379
03:15:07,680 --> 03:15:11,920
Speaker 2: on maoists on both sides, where both of like both

3380
03:15:12,040 --> 03:15:14,240
Speaker 2: him and his enemies also believe this.

3381
03:15:16,000 --> 03:15:19,160
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean this is a certain strain of like rationalists.

3382
03:15:19,160 --> 03:15:21,520
Speaker 7: Post rationalist is really into this sort of like IQ

3383
03:15:21,800 --> 03:15:25,279
Speaker 7: merit based yeah, and intelligence and meritocracy.

3384
03:15:25,840 --> 03:15:27,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, And they're like and so are like a bunch

3385
03:15:27,400 --> 03:15:29,160
Speaker 2: of the tech people who are letting yeah, I stuff.

3386
03:15:29,280 --> 03:15:32,720
Speaker 7: I mean, this essay specifically is very disordered and it's thinking.

3387
03:15:32,760 --> 03:15:35,800
Speaker 7: I do not think a lot of other rationalists would

3388
03:15:35,800 --> 03:15:38,920
Speaker 7: would take some of the sort of beliefs and statements

3389
03:15:38,920 --> 03:15:42,000
Speaker 7: made in this essay at face value, or like, would

3390
03:15:42,000 --> 03:15:43,920
Speaker 7: not agree with the way that he would not agree

3391
03:15:43,959 --> 03:15:48,480
Speaker 7: with the way that Moron Agama like writes, writes about

3392
03:15:48,520 --> 03:15:51,800
Speaker 7: these sorts of like policies or ideas. It's very self contradictory.

3393
03:15:52,280 --> 03:15:54,879
Speaker 7: He writes both kind of in favor and not in

3394
03:15:54,959 --> 03:15:58,080
Speaker 7: favor of like I Q to vote or to become

3395
03:15:58,120 --> 03:16:02,440
Speaker 7: a citizen. It's all very kind of confused. And on Tuesday,

3396
03:16:02,520 --> 03:16:05,240
Speaker 7: Mornagama's public defender set in court that he has quote

3397
03:16:05,440 --> 03:16:09,360
Speaker 7: a history of autism and mental health illness, and that

3398
03:16:09,440 --> 03:16:11,960
Speaker 7: his actions quote appear to have been driven by an

3399
03:16:11,959 --> 03:16:17,560
Speaker 7: acute mental health crisis quote now Interestingly, two days after

3400
03:16:17,720 --> 03:16:21,760
Speaker 7: the Molotov cocktail attack, Sanltman's home was apparently targeted again

3401
03:16:21,959 --> 03:16:24,840
Speaker 7: in a drive by shooting. A man and a woman

3402
03:16:24,879 --> 03:16:28,160
Speaker 7: in their mid twenties have been arrested connected to that,

3403
03:16:29,040 --> 03:16:32,000
Speaker 7: and on Tuesday morning, a molotov cocktail was thrown at

3404
03:16:32,040 --> 03:16:35,480
Speaker 7: the entrance of a Teslas sales office in New Orleans,

3405
03:16:35,520 --> 03:16:39,080
Speaker 7: igniting a fire at the front door. No arrests have

3406
03:16:39,160 --> 03:16:42,560
Speaker 7: been made connected to that incident. I think I should

3407
03:16:42,560 --> 03:16:45,440
Speaker 7: also just briefly mention the warehouse fire thing, which I

3408
03:16:45,440 --> 03:16:47,280
Speaker 7: did a full episode on earlier this week that you

3409
03:16:47,320 --> 03:16:50,320
Speaker 7: can listen to, but kind of in short, just as

3410
03:16:50,400 --> 03:16:52,879
Speaker 7: for midnight. On April seventh, a twenty nine year old

3411
03:16:52,879 --> 03:16:56,680
Speaker 7: warehouse worker named Schammel Abdul Karim allegedly set a toilet

3412
03:16:56,720 --> 03:17:00,640
Speaker 7: paper warehouse on fire in Ontario, California, least by the

3413
03:17:00,720 --> 03:17:05,680
Speaker 7: company Kimberly Clark. Adilkarim allegedly filmed himself igniting three pallets

3414
03:17:05,680 --> 03:17:08,959
Speaker 7: of paper products on fire while saying aloud, if you're

3415
03:17:09,000 --> 03:17:10,959
Speaker 7: not going to pay us enough to fucking live or

3416
03:17:11,000 --> 03:17:13,680
Speaker 7: afford to live, at least pay us enough not to

3417
03:17:13,720 --> 03:17:15,680
Speaker 7: do this shit. All you had to do was pay

3418
03:17:15,760 --> 03:17:20,160
Speaker 7: us enough to live. There goes your inventory unquote. According

3419
03:17:20,200 --> 03:17:23,160
Speaker 7: to the DOJ, this fire caused over half a billion

3420
03:17:23,200 --> 03:17:26,440
Speaker 7: dollars in damages, it's five hundred million in profit and

3421
03:17:26,520 --> 03:17:30,400
Speaker 7: one hundred million in infrastructure. In the days after the fire,

3422
03:17:30,560 --> 03:17:33,680
Speaker 7: people started sharing viral clips of other warehouse fires across

3423
03:17:33,720 --> 03:17:36,960
Speaker 7: the country, asserting that a wave of copycat incidents were

3424
03:17:37,000 --> 03:17:42,360
Speaker 7: occurring where underpaid employees were setting their workplaces on fire. Now,

3425
03:17:42,480 --> 03:17:46,279
Speaker 7: none of these subsequent warehouse fires have yet been deemed arson.

3426
03:17:46,720 --> 03:17:49,840
Speaker 7: Most are still under investigation, but some do have suspected

3427
03:17:49,879 --> 03:17:54,080
Speaker 7: accidental causes, such as electrical failure, exploding lithium ion batteries,

3428
03:17:54,400 --> 03:17:57,560
Speaker 7: and improperly mixed waste. At least one fire was at

3429
03:17:57,560 --> 03:18:01,200
Speaker 7: an abandoned warehouse, so there was no scruntled worker setting

3430
03:18:01,200 --> 03:18:04,440
Speaker 7: his workplace on fire in that instance. Most certainly, and

3431
03:18:04,480 --> 03:18:07,080
Speaker 7: warehouse fires themselves, are actually pretty common. A report from

3432
03:18:07,120 --> 03:18:09,680
Speaker 7: the National Fire Protection Association found that from twenty twenty

3433
03:18:09,680 --> 03:18:12,480
Speaker 7: to twenty twenty four, an average of four warehouse fires

3434
03:18:12,520 --> 03:18:17,039
Speaker 7: occurred per day. The idea that the number of warehouse

3435
03:18:17,040 --> 03:18:21,480
Speaker 7: fires has suddenly increased is an instance of selective reporting,

3436
03:18:21,640 --> 03:18:24,119
Speaker 7: where a big national news story causes people to share

3437
03:18:24,160 --> 03:18:27,400
Speaker 7: local reports that appear connected even if there is no

3438
03:18:27,520 --> 03:18:31,000
Speaker 7: direct connection. This happens a lot with aviation incidents, where

3439
03:18:31,320 --> 03:18:34,920
Speaker 7: after news of an accident involving a big commercial airliner,

3440
03:18:35,040 --> 03:18:38,520
Speaker 7: people will share local news reports of plane crashes, even

3441
03:18:38,560 --> 03:18:42,240
Speaker 7: if these just involve small private planes which crash much

3442
03:18:42,280 --> 03:18:42,959
Speaker 7: more frequently.

3443
03:18:43,879 --> 03:18:44,080
Speaker 4: Now.

3444
03:18:44,240 --> 03:18:47,480
Speaker 7: I wrote about the warehouse fire story and the viral

3445
03:18:47,480 --> 03:18:51,119
Speaker 7: misinformation associated with it because I've been pretty consistent about

3446
03:18:51,160 --> 03:18:53,880
Speaker 7: the need to have an accurate understanding of the world

3447
03:18:53,920 --> 03:18:58,240
Speaker 7: in order to change it. But also, even if viral

3448
03:18:58,280 --> 03:19:02,360
Speaker 7: claims of copycat fires are unfounded, the memes and the

3449
03:19:02,400 --> 03:19:06,720
Speaker 7: reactions to the story, like Luigi Mangioni, do demonstrate a

3450
03:19:06,920 --> 03:19:10,320
Speaker 7: form of class consciousness and do show an active willingness

3451
03:19:10,320 --> 03:19:13,440
Speaker 7: to rally behind such action. And the toilet paper arson

3452
03:19:13,560 --> 03:19:17,240
Speaker 7: story specifically is really compelling because this is just an

3453
03:19:17,240 --> 03:19:20,320
Speaker 7: everyday worker. This isn't like a maoist bombing plot, this

3454
03:19:20,400 --> 03:19:23,080
Speaker 7: isn't an anarchist affinity group. It's not hard to grasp

3455
03:19:23,160 --> 03:19:26,240
Speaker 7: the motivation and politics of a worker saying all you

3456
03:19:26,320 --> 03:19:29,400
Speaker 7: had to do was pay us a living wage. That said,

3457
03:19:29,680 --> 03:19:35,000
Speaker 7: passive engagement with content promoting individuals to venturism can serve

3458
03:19:35,080 --> 03:19:38,760
Speaker 7: as a cathartic substitute for taking political action, including the

3459
03:19:38,800 --> 03:19:43,200
Speaker 7: relatively tedious and difficult work of union organizing. Memes like

3460
03:19:43,240 --> 03:19:46,600
Speaker 7: this warehouse fire trend can have a positive outcome if

3461
03:19:46,640 --> 03:19:48,920
Speaker 7: the sort of energy that's channeled through this direct action

3462
03:19:49,000 --> 03:19:52,720
Speaker 7: and associated content could then be utilized towards actually building

3463
03:19:52,760 --> 03:19:55,080
Speaker 7: a labor movement instead of just being a way for

3464
03:19:55,280 --> 03:19:58,720
Speaker 7: influencers to attract engagement, which is why a lot of

3465
03:19:58,760 --> 03:20:03,000
Speaker 7: this story has kind of perforated through Reddit, TikTok, Instagram,

3466
03:20:03,360 --> 03:20:07,000
Speaker 7: and blue sky and Twitter. So that's kind of why

3467
03:20:07,040 --> 03:20:09,520
Speaker 7: I talked about the story the way I did in

3468
03:20:09,560 --> 03:20:11,880
Speaker 7: that episode. And if you want more details about this

3469
03:20:12,000 --> 03:20:14,440
Speaker 7: viral meme, you can check out that episode from a

3470
03:20:14,480 --> 03:20:17,800
Speaker 7: few days ago. Let's see, I think that's everything.

3471
03:20:18,680 --> 03:20:20,040
Speaker 5: There is no more news left.

3472
03:20:21,240 --> 03:20:23,160
Speaker 7: We did it. We did all the news, all right,

3473
03:20:23,720 --> 03:20:24,760
Speaker 7: We reported the news.

3474
03:20:25,040 --> 03:20:30,120
Speaker 5: Goodbye. If you want to email us, you can do

3475
03:20:30,320 --> 03:20:33,200
Speaker 5: so with your story tips. You can do that by

3476
03:20:33,200 --> 03:20:37,240
Speaker 5: emailing cool Zone Tips at proton me. If you want

3477
03:20:37,280 --> 03:20:40,520
Speaker 5: to email us with your marketing or to suggest that

3478
03:20:40,600 --> 03:20:43,680
Speaker 5: your boss be a guest on our podcast, just don't.

3479
03:20:44,640 --> 03:20:46,279
Speaker 7: We reported the news.

3480
03:20:48,000 --> 03:20:48,200
Speaker 10: Hey.

3481
03:20:48,280 --> 03:20:51,400
Speaker 1: We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from

3482
03:20:51,440 --> 03:20:53,120
Speaker 1: now until the heat death of the universe.

3483
03:20:53,879 --> 03:20:56,360
Speaker 14: It could happen. Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

3484
03:20:56,560 --> 03:20:59,640
Speaker 14: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

3485
03:21:00,040 --> 03:21:02,240
Speaker 14: on media dot com or check us out on the

3486
03:21:02,280 --> 03:21:06,320
Speaker 14: iHeartRadio app Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts,

3487
03:21:06,680 --> 03:21:08,560
Speaker 14: you can now find sources for it could happen here,

3488
03:21:08,640 --> 03:21:11,600
Speaker 14: listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.