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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references

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Speaker 1: to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: It's a real mystery and fascinating one. So my name

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Speaker 2: is josh Zieman. I'm a filmmaker documentarian. I do a

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Speaker 2: lot of work in true crime right now. Just premiered

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Speaker 2: a series called The Killing Season, which looks at the

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Speaker 2: case of the Long Island serial killer.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical

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Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold War Wicked On Exactly Right. I've

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Speaker 1: traveled around the world interviewing people for the show. I've

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Speaker 1: interviewed some people in person and some from my home

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Speaker 1: studio over zoom, and they are all excellent writers. They've

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Speaker 1: had so many great true crime stories and now we

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Speaker 1: want to tell you those stories with details that have

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Speaker 1: never been published. Wicked Words is about the choices that

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Speaker 1: writers make, good and bad. It's a deep dive into

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Speaker 1: the stories behind the stories. Joshua Zeeman is a filmmaker

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Speaker 1: in New York City and he has a new true

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Speaker 1: crime documentary series called The Sons of Sam a descent

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Speaker 1: Into Darkness. It's streaming now on Netflix and it's about

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Speaker 1: the hunt for the Son of Sam killer and the

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Speaker 1: rabbit hole that Josh goes down trying to prove that

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Speaker 1: David Berkowitz did not act alone. And there's a podcast

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Speaker 1: that goes along with it called Searching for the Sons

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Speaker 1: of Sam. Josh has done an excellent job at research

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Speaker 1: in the Long Island serial killer case. This really is

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Speaker 1: behind the scenes of how he found his information and

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Speaker 1: how he came to his conclusions, and a few of

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Speaker 1: his conclusions might surprise you.

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Speaker 2: The story basically starts in December of twenty ten. There

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Speaker 2: was an escort named Shannon Gilbert and she was hired

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Speaker 2: to go to a client's house in a very strange

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Speaker 2: little enclave called Oak Beach in Long Island. It's a

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Speaker 2: gated community. She was driven by a driver named Michael

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Speaker 2: Pack and Shannon went to the house of a man

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Speaker 2: named Joseph Brewer. They hung out, We seemed to drugs.

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Speaker 2: We don't know exactly what happened. At some point, Shannon

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Speaker 2: starts to freak out. She feels that Joseph Brewer is

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Speaker 2: trying to attack her or something to that effect. Joseph

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Speaker 2: Brewer calls the driver, Michael Pack who's still waiting outside

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Speaker 2: in the car, and says, this woman's freaking out.

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Speaker 3: You need to come in here.

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Speaker 4: Is it normal for an escort to have a driver?

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Speaker 3: Great question.

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Speaker 2: Actually, this whole driver issue was almost what really made

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Speaker 2: me so interested in the case, because the world of

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Speaker 2: the quote unquote prostitute has changed with the advent of

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Speaker 2: the Internet and things like that. No longer really do

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Speaker 2: we find women on street corners. What we find is

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Speaker 2: that sex work has migrated to the Internet, where you

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Speaker 2: can go on sites like previously Backpage or Craigslist, and

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Speaker 2: you can basically hire or peru use the internet to

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Speaker 2: find someone of your liking. Then you kind of correspond

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Speaker 2: in code over places like Backpage, and a sex worker

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Speaker 2: will then show up at your house. Usually that sex

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Speaker 2: worker gets there via a driver, and a driver is almost.

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Speaker 3: Like a de facto pimp in some respects.

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Speaker 2: Drivers are part of the exchange and part of the process.

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Speaker 3: They bring the girl or the man.

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Speaker 2: They wait outside to make sure that person is safe,

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Speaker 2: you know, then they drive back and sometimes a girl

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Speaker 2: will have one driver. A friend of mine was a

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Speaker 2: driver for a long time, wow, and his job was

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Speaker 2: to be texting the later clients to keep them on

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Speaker 2: the hook, and sometimes that involves sexting, and so it

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Speaker 2: was very funny. It's a dual role and sometimes you

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Speaker 2: know it's it's security. So I was very intrigued by

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Speaker 2: that relationship of the driver.

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Speaker 3: This kind of like half pimp per se.

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Speaker 1: And you had not heard about that before you kind

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Speaker 1: of dug into this case.

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Speaker 2: No, well, you know, I really hadn't. I have to

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Speaker 2: admit I don't like serial killer cases. I think you

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Speaker 2: might be in the wrong business. Yeah, I guess so.

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Speaker 2: I think the media does a really poor job of

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Speaker 2: kind of glorifying the serial killer. When I did a

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Speaker 2: previous film, Cropsy, about some missing kids in Statanna, and

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Speaker 2: one of the mothers said, Okay, i'll talk to you,

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Speaker 2: but you have to make me a promise. You have

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Speaker 2: to promise never to do a story about a serial killer.

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Speaker 2: But then the Long Island serial killer case happened and

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Speaker 2: I broke that promise. And the reason I broke that

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Speaker 2: promise was because the world needed to know how serial

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Speaker 2: killer cases are really investigated and not on television. They're

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Speaker 2: way more complicated, they're way more screwed up, they're way

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Speaker 2: more tragic, and.

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Speaker 1: They're not as transparent, and there's so many there's so

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Speaker 1: much pressure on the police. Did you find that they

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Speaker 1: were just becoming more and more protective of their information.

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Speaker 2: That was one of the things that really sparked me

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Speaker 2: to do this case. Here we have what looks like

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Speaker 2: an unbelievable serial killer case. And what I mean by

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Speaker 2: that is this girl, Shannon Gilbert. Basically she's at this

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Speaker 2: house of this client. She's freaking out. She thinks the

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Speaker 2: client is trying to kill her. She thinks the driver

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Speaker 2: is trying to kill her. She runs out of the house,

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Speaker 2: freaking out, calls nine to one one. She says, it's

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Speaker 2: a twenty three minute call to one one, and in

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Speaker 2: that time she's saying, they're trying to kill me.

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Speaker 3: They're trying to kill me.

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Speaker 2: They That is one of the operative mysteries of this case.

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Speaker 4: Because one guy signed up for her services.

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Speaker 3: That's right. So who's the day is it Joseph Brewer,

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Speaker 3: the client?

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Speaker 2: Is there somebody else in the house or is this

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Speaker 2: the client and the driver who have somehow joined forces

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Speaker 2: and are trying.

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Speaker 3: To kill her.

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Speaker 1: She's also maybe doing drugs, so it could be just

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Speaker 1: a hallucination.

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Speaker 2: Also, there's a lot of things going on, but the

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Speaker 2: point is the call is dropped. Seanon Gilbert is going

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Speaker 2: around knocking on doors of neighbors. She knocks on one

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Speaker 2: door an older gentleman by the name of Gus Coletti.

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Speaker 2: It's the middle of the morning, it's like four am,

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Speaker 2: and he sees this young girl freaking out, and you know,

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Speaker 2: he says, okay, He tells her to stand on the porch.

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Speaker 3: He's calling nine one one.

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Speaker 2: She kind of is still freaking out, hangs up, runs

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Speaker 2: off down the street and has never seen from again.

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Speaker 2: Michael packed the driver had been driving around, saying looking

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Speaker 2: for her as she's having this freak out, trying to

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Speaker 2: get her back in the car. Her mother, Mary Gilbert,

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Speaker 2: goes looking for her a couple of days later, finds out,

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Speaker 2: you know, that she's missing, calls her boyfriends and they

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Speaker 2: go to this Oak beach, the last place she was seen.

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Speaker 3: And the information is a little.

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Speaker 2: Dodgy, sketchy because she's involved in a legal activity, you know.

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Speaker 4: So nobody wants to talk.

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Speaker 3: Nobody wants to talk about.

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Speaker 2: The driver doesn't want to, you know, completely say what's happened,

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Speaker 2: but he's being somewhat fourth, right, they go to the police.

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Speaker 2: The police, of course, when they hear that a sex

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Speaker 2: worker is missing, she's probably on a binge, she's drug

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Speaker 2: addled or sacked out somewhere. They don't pay that much attention.

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Speaker 2: There's somewhat of a muted response from them. And she

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Speaker 2: goes on this crusade to find her daughter.

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Speaker 4: And this is Long Island Police, Is that right, Yeah, this.

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Speaker 2: Is the Suffolk County Police Department. Long Island is actually

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Speaker 2: a very very big, large place. It's part of technically

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Speaker 2: the Tri state area. It's made up of two different counties,

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Speaker 2: Nassau County and and Suffolk County. And Suffolk County is

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Speaker 2: where the Hamptons are and where mon Talk is, all

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Speaker 2: these like kind of cheeshy places. But then there's like

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Speaker 2: these these other places like Oak Beach, Long Island. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's very somewhat blue collar, but it also has this

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Speaker 2: really strong police presence.

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Speaker 3: And the police presence is almost political.

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Speaker 1: But it's well supported, is extremely they're not undermanned, and

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Speaker 1: so at this point they've sort of just blown this

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Speaker 1: off as a sex worker gone missing, and we'll keep

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Speaker 1: an eye on it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's fairly typical of a lot of police departments. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: when it comes to missing sex workers. In their defense,

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Speaker 2: a lot of these sex workers, not all, but a

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Speaker 2: lot are drug addled and.

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Speaker 3: Things like that.

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Speaker 2: So Shannon Gilbert disappears and nobody can find her. Some

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Speaker 2: interesting characters start to come out of the woodwork. She

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Speaker 2: went missing in this gated community called Oak Beach, which

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Speaker 2: is basically on one of the kind of shelter islands

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Speaker 2: that's along the southern end of Long Island.

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Speaker 3: The beach is right there.

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Speaker 2: It's super desolate, and you know, the nearest comedian store

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Speaker 2: is twenty miles away.

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Speaker 4: This is not a slum.

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Speaker 3: This is a nice or now there'd be a very

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Speaker 3: nice gated community. There's high end people in this community.

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Speaker 3: It's a rich community. She goes missing.

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Speaker 2: Mary Gilbert, the mother, is trying to find out what happens,

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Speaker 2: and she gets in touch with a doctor named Peter Hackett.

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Speaker 2: And Peter Hackett they speak on the phone and he

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Speaker 2: tells her, oh, I run a home for wayward girls,

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Speaker 2: and she's okay. He says some weird stuff.

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Speaker 1: He's insinuating that he has sort of possession of her.

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Speaker 2: He's insinuating that maybe she was there at the house

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Speaker 2: and don't worry, she's fine. Hackett has basically placed himself

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Speaker 2: in this case in.

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Speaker 3: A weird way.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of confusion. What does Hackett know? Where

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Speaker 2: is this girl? Nobody knows. The police start to become

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Speaker 2: more and more involved the longer she's gone.

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Speaker 3: They're looking for her.

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Speaker 2: A couple weeks later, a cadaver dog is training along

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Speaker 2: Ocean Parkway, which is basically the highway that brings people

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Speaker 2: to Oak Beach, and this cadaver dog stumbles across four bodies,

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Speaker 2: ough skeletonized, all wrapped in burlap, placed about two hundred

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Speaker 2: and fifty feet apart.

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Speaker 3: We would later find out they're all sex.

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Speaker 4: Workers, just laying on top of the ground.

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Speaker 3: It's interesting.

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Speaker 2: I read all these comments about people talking about, you know,

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Speaker 2: the case, and they're like, I don't understand.

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Speaker 3: I don't understand.

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Speaker 2: These bodies were in brush. This is not along the

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Speaker 2: side of the road brush. This is a highway and

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Speaker 2: there's about twenty feet until you hit the brush. The

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Speaker 2: brush is an unbelievable tangle of poison, ivy, poison oak.

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Speaker 2: It's so thick you couldn't see the ground. Basically four

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Speaker 2: to five feet above it. It's like the tangles. It's

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Speaker 2: like you could be looking down and you would not

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Speaker 2: see anything unless it was right in front of you.

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Speaker 4: Well, you have to be pretty motivated to hide somebody

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Speaker 4: in there.

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Speaker 3: Yes, you do.

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Speaker 2: The police stumble upon these four skeletons again two hundred

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Speaker 2: fifty feet apart, kind of placed very specifically along this spot,

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Speaker 2: and they can't believe what they found. These are four

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Speaker 2: sex workers. We would later find out their names. They

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Speaker 2: had disappeared basically over the course of the previous two

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Speaker 2: years missing sex workers.

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Speaker 3: There's so many of them out there, and these are

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Speaker 3: four of them.

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Speaker 1: Somebody has reported each one of them at different times

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Speaker 1: have gone missing.

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Speaker 4: That's not forgotten people. Somebody cared enough.

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Speaker 2: We have met all the families of these four women.

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Speaker 2: They all have issues, you know. One of them was heavily,

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Speaker 2: heavily addicted, kind of on her last legs. The other

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Speaker 2: came from Buffalo and had, we think had been kind

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Speaker 2: of lured to New York City by a Romeo pimp.

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Speaker 3: We tracked all these histories and one girl.

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Speaker 2: Was last seen leaving a hotel along the Long Island Expressway.

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Speaker 2: The last time she's leaving, she's leaving this holiday inn,

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Speaker 2: getting in a car. No one could see the license plate,

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Speaker 2: can't really see the car. No one hears from her

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Speaker 2: again a year later. She's one of these girls. Another

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Speaker 2: one is this other girl who had been seen kind

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Speaker 2: of leaving her house to go meet a john. Presumably

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Speaker 2: she got in a car, never seen from again.

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Speaker 3: Things like that.

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Speaker 4: Now there's such easy targets.

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Speaker 2: Another one was last seen. She was from upstate New

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Speaker 2: York and had been last seen in Penn Station. She

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Speaker 2: was going to go home after coming down to New

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Speaker 2: York to work for a weekend, and we assumed she

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Speaker 2: got a call from a John and had suddenly gotten

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Speaker 2: in a car, maybe somewhere outside Penn Station and disappeared.

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Speaker 2: So all kind of different storylines, very creepy, very serial

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Speaker 2: killer esque.

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Speaker 1: Or what are you thinking? And then I know we'll

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Speaker 1: talk about the cops. But lace that is that so

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Speaker 1: that he can go back? Yeah, because you're saying this

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Speaker 1: brush is just covering this is.

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Speaker 3: A trophy garden.

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Speaker 1: Well, because we know that many serial killers like to

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Speaker 1: go back and relive everything. Yes, Okay, So the cops

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Speaker 1: I'm assuming are freaking out at this point.

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Speaker 2: They are because what was once just a kind of

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Speaker 2: random sex worker gone missing has turned into some thing

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Speaker 2: huge force. Dead women along the side of a highway,

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Speaker 2: obviously the work of a serial killer. The ways in

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Speaker 2: which these four women had gone missing were all very mysterious. Again,

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Speaker 2: one from Penn Station, the other from a hotel in

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Speaker 2: Long Island and Apocac, and another one from another hotel

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Speaker 2: in Suffolk County, just very strange. Two of the women

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Speaker 2: didn't have their cell phones with them. No sex worker

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Speaker 2: leaves the house without a cell phone. A cell phone

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Speaker 2: is how you get more clients. A cell phone is

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Speaker 2: how you know how long to spend there. If somebody

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Speaker 2: convinced them to leave their cell phone, that was a

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Speaker 2: very deliberate act.

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Speaker 1: And when we're talking about where these women last were,

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Speaker 1: do we know that from the cell phone ping pings? Okay,

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Speaker 1: so it's not that witnesses say I saw this woman

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Speaker 1: at Penn Station.

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Speaker 4: It's that that was the last time their phone was.

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Speaker 2: There's a couple of different things, like some of them

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Speaker 2: are witnesses, some of them are cell phone pings. Like

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Speaker 2: it's a whole bunch of different ways in which the

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Speaker 2: police have established the timelines of all of these four

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Speaker 2: women who.

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Speaker 1: Had disappeared, and they don't have escort services in comment

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Speaker 1: pimps and comment backpage.

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Speaker 2: Backpage is one of the services that they all use,

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Speaker 2: or Craigslist. The irony here is that everybody believes that

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Speaker 2: the Internet will somehow make sex work safer. The irony

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Speaker 2: is it creates another level of anonymity and makes it

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Speaker 2: that much more dangerous because a guy can go online

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Speaker 2: and basically shop for the perfect victim and.

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Speaker 1: Then have someone show up at a room where she

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Speaker 1: is vulnerable. I mean, at least if they're getting in

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Speaker 1: a car, the woman has a good look at him

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Speaker 1: and can make a judgment call right.

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Speaker 2: That's exactly it. So what's changed is that sixth sense

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Speaker 2: that a sex worker has when a john pulls up,

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Speaker 2: she looks in the car. Shere here making split second decisions.

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Speaker 2: They are saying, how's his personal hygiene? What does the

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Speaker 2: car look like? Is it clean?

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Speaker 1: And you can have a friend check him out and

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Speaker 1: say no, no, I've.

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Speaker 4: Been with that guy.

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Speaker 2: No, sure, sure is there a baby seat in the backseat?

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Speaker 2: He is a family guy, perfect, no problem. There used

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Speaker 2: to be that moment in which a street wise sex

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Speaker 2: worker could make an edge decision. Now, hopefully she didn't

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Speaker 2: have to make that educated decision while high. That's another

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Speaker 2: issue in itself, but you got to check out who

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Speaker 2: your john was. Now, when you're doing out calls, which

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Speaker 2: means you go to somebody's hotel room, they call you

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Speaker 2: and they say, oh, I'm at the Holiday Inn, exit

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Speaker 2: thirty five. Ponkak, come meet me. I'm in a hotel

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Speaker 2: room two four. The only thing these women have to

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Speaker 2: go on is the voice. Now, the problem is he's

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Speaker 2: very nice, he's sweet talk. Whatever he offers you a

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Speaker 2: little bit more money, You knock on the door, you

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Speaker 2: step inside the room, then you see who's there, and

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Speaker 2: does suddenly three guys jump out of a closet. Is

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Speaker 2: suddenly he's got a suit on. But he's a crazy person.

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Speaker 2: So they've lost that ability to have that split second decision.

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Speaker 2: Some girls do in calls where the john will come

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Speaker 2: to them. We interviewed one girl in Killing season. Her

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Speaker 2: name is Super. She would exclusively work at a hotel.

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Speaker 2: She would entertain three or four clients a day, and

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Speaker 2: then later on at night she would go out and

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Speaker 2: do the out calls. And the out calls are more

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Speaker 2: expensive because of the danger issue. We drove her around

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Speaker 2: for a week, just wanting to know what that experience was.

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Speaker 3: Like.

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Speaker 2: This girl's out there in the Long Island serial killers

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Speaker 2: hunting grounds. She was taking your chances.

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Speaker 1: Poor skeletons. How are the cops identifying them? Is it

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Speaker 1: immediate or does it take a while?

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Speaker 2: Pretty quick, you know, matching up to missing persons quick DNA?

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Speaker 3: It's never that quick.

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Speaker 2: But the problem is a few weeks later they find

328
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Speaker 2: even more body parts different here, not full skeletons, they

329
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Speaker 2: find body parts.

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Speaker 3: And in fact, they're going up and down.

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Speaker 2: This long stretch about twelve miles worth of brush, and

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Speaker 2: there's these little kind of insular communities dotted along this highway.

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Speaker 2: There's like a state park and a little marina. They're

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Speaker 2: finding body parts, they're finding legs and arms, a baby,

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Speaker 2: and so they find upwards of I think at this

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Speaker 2: point to twelve more body parts. And so at this

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Speaker 2: point we've got anywhere between ten to six teen bodies

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Speaker 2: that they found force fully intact skeletonized bodies the first

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Speaker 2: four and then all these body parts of other sex

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Speaker 2: workers who had gone missing a decade earlier.

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Speaker 1: Based on the skeletons he started in Is it twenty eleven?

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Speaker 3: Is that when it was well.

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Speaker 2: The problem is is that the first four women who

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00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:22,480
Speaker 2: were found were the last ones taken, and suddenly finding

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Speaker 2: all these other body parts they connect back to other

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Speaker 2: missing sex workers. For example, one leg connects to another

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Speaker 2: leg that had been found in Fire Island in a

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Speaker 2: trash bag. It's all these body parts all over Long Island.

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Speaker 2: Another one, Peaches, is connected to a torso that had

350
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Speaker 2: been found in a cooler in Nassau County in another park,

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Speaker 2: dropped off on the side of the road.

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Speaker 4: Is he throwing them out the window? I mean, how

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Speaker 4: is he distributed?

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Speaker 2: So the issue is are we dealing with one killer

355
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Speaker 2: or two? And how does two killers use the same

356
00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:57,720
Speaker 2: trophy garden? If you will, And this is where the theories

357
00:16:57,600 --> 00:16:59,480
Speaker 2: wren wild. And this is where you had an earlier

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Speaker 2: comment about how well law enforcement deals with a serial

359
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Speaker 2: killer case.

360
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Speaker 3: Long Island did not deal with it well.

361
00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:10,280
Speaker 2: Now, to their defense, many police departments very rarely have

362
00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:13,800
Speaker 2: a serial killer case. This is not something they train for,

363
00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:17,120
Speaker 2: this is not something any of them ever deal with.

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00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:20,280
Speaker 2: Police departments are probably more well prepared for an active

365
00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:24,240
Speaker 2: shooter issue than a serial killer case. Most police departments

366
00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:27,520
Speaker 2: only get one every twenty years Long Island. Interestingly enough,

367
00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:30,800
Speaker 2: although it had Joel Rifkin previously and their other fair

368
00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:33,439
Speaker 2: share of serial killer cases, they just the individuals who

369
00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:35,520
Speaker 2: had been around at that time hadn't dealt with it.

370
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Speaker 2: So there was a lot of back and forth about

371
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Speaker 2: whether there was one serial killer or two working separately.

372
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Speaker 2: So that's what everybody can't wrap their head around. Two

373
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Speaker 2: serial killers. Are they working in tandem or are they separate?

374
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Speaker 2: What is it? I, having investigated the case, have my

375
00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:55,159
Speaker 2: own theories. Those disagree with both the police at some

376
00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:58,119
Speaker 2: points and both with the public at some points. But

377
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Speaker 2: it's important to note that the police at one time

378
00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:03,520
Speaker 2: had said there was one serial killer. Then they say, oh, well,

379
00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:06,600
Speaker 2: now we've got two, if not more, and then they

380
00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:09,440
Speaker 2: went back to the one serial killer. And it was

381
00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:12,480
Speaker 2: a lot of back and forth between the police chief

382
00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:16,080
Speaker 2: and the district attorney. And we don't know whether this

383
00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:20,200
Speaker 2: back and forth was talking out of school, whether they

384
00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:23,760
Speaker 2: just didn't know enough, or whether they were trying to

385
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Speaker 2: prevent panic.

386
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Speaker 1: If you're going on the theory of two separate serial

387
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Speaker 1: killers operating independently, are we thinking that there was the

388
00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:36,840
Speaker 1: one and there's publicity and then someone else thinks, well,

389
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Speaker 1: this is a great place.

390
00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:39,560
Speaker 4: That's what I would think if I were so could.

391
00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:41,720
Speaker 1: Why not just to add to this other guy's body

392
00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:43,320
Speaker 1: count and put everybody in there?

393
00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:46,160
Speaker 4: I mean, is that the theory? Whether you believe it.

394
00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:47,439
Speaker 3: Or not, that's my theory.

395
00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:49,239
Speaker 4: Okay, well it makes sense to me.

396
00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:50,679
Speaker 3: Well it's interesting. You got it.

397
00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:54,359
Speaker 2: But you know, serial killer right right right, But a

398
00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:56,320
Speaker 2: lot of other people don't. You know, they don't know

399
00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:59,320
Speaker 2: as intimately as maybe you or I do. And you

400
00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:01,760
Speaker 2: nailed it, but it's very hard for people to wrap

401
00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:04,800
Speaker 2: their heads around how that could possibly be that we're

402
00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:08,199
Speaker 2: dealing with one serial killer who's been around for twenty

403
00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:08,800
Speaker 2: five years.

404
00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:10,280
Speaker 4: So wait, they find these bodies?

405
00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:13,040
Speaker 2: What year they find these bodies? In twenty eleven?

406
00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:17,600
Speaker 4: The oldest set is from when is that dump? We think?

407
00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:22,080
Speaker 2: The four who are intact, okay, are Marine Brainer Barnes okay,

408
00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:26,040
Speaker 2: lasting in two thousand and seven, Melissa Bartholemy twenty four,

409
00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:29,680
Speaker 2: lasting in two thousand and nine, Megan Waterman twenty two,

410
00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:34,640
Speaker 2: lasting in twenty ten, and Amberlin Costello lasting in twenty ten.

411
00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:35,280
Speaker 3: Those are the.

412
00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:38,440
Speaker 2: Four most recent okay, the ones who were found intact

413
00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:42,000
Speaker 2: and they're missing goes as far back as two thousand

414
00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:45,560
Speaker 2: and seven. Basically, that's a span of three years from

415
00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,160
Speaker 2: the earliest taken to when they were found two thousand

416
00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:52,439
Speaker 2: and seven to twenty ten. These other body parts that

417
00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:56,520
Speaker 2: were discovered a year later. They are Jessica Taylor twenty,

418
00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:58,440
Speaker 2: went missing in two thousand and three.

419
00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:01,239
Speaker 3: Jane Do number six. We don't know who she is.

420
00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:03,000
Speaker 3: We don't know when she disappeared.

421
00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:06,720
Speaker 2: We have Peaches, and Peaches is very interesting and we

422
00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:09,200
Speaker 2: could talk about what we discovered in terms of Peaches.

423
00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:13,840
Speaker 2: Her torso dismembered torso was found in ninety seven in

424
00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:18,400
Speaker 2: Nassau County. And by the way, there's a baby, baby Dough.

425
00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:19,399
Speaker 4: How old is the baby.

426
00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:22,200
Speaker 3: We don't know her a year.

427
00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:25,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean baby Dough is actually the child of Peaches.

428
00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:30,760
Speaker 2: He is taking what we call forensic countermeasures to prevent identification.

429
00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,720
Speaker 2: He's placing the baby next to a different victim. This

430
00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:37,639
Speaker 2: guy is smart. There's a bunch of other legs and

431
00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:41,399
Speaker 2: stuff what I call fire island Jane Doe. Her legs

432
00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:44,480
Speaker 2: were discovered in ninety six and her skull was found

433
00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:47,600
Speaker 2: in twenty eleven. Okay, her legs show up in a

434
00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:52,040
Speaker 2: plastic bag on Fire Island in ninety six. Police find

435
00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:56,240
Speaker 2: her head along this stretch of roadway in twenty eleven.

436
00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:00,879
Speaker 2: That is fifteen years. So if this is really one person,

437
00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:03,480
Speaker 2: this person's been doing this for a long time.

438
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:04,639
Speaker 3: He's changed his MO.

439
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:11,280
Speaker 2: Okay, Originally there are all dismembered bodies, heads, legs, legs

440
00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:14,320
Speaker 2: are showing up in plastic bags on Fire Island, washing

441
00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:17,639
Speaker 2: up someplace. Okay, So he's tossing a body part here.

442
00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:23,840
Speaker 2: He's leaving a torso peaches in a cooler along a

443
00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:27,760
Speaker 2: trail in Hempstead Park. He's leaving something there. Why is

444
00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:30,359
Speaker 2: he leaving something so somebody can discover it?

445
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:32,359
Speaker 3: Why would you do that? Because you want to freak

446
00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:33,040
Speaker 3: people out.

447
00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:36,800
Speaker 4: So it's not to be discovered. It's the thrill of

448
00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:37,240
Speaker 4: seeing it.

449
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:37,840
Speaker 1: In the news.

450
00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:42,840
Speaker 2: He left a torso in a cooler along a fairly

451
00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:49,679
Speaker 2: well traveled park, So you are wanting at that point

452
00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:51,720
Speaker 2: in ninety seven, you're wanting.

453
00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:53,480
Speaker 3: People to find it. I don't think it's because you

454
00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:57,040
Speaker 3: feel bad. I think it's because you want shock value.

455
00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:57,679
Speaker 3: Shock value.

456
00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:01,480
Speaker 4: Where's the switch? Where does the changed dramatically?

457
00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:05,440
Speaker 3: So the MO changes with these last four girls.

458
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:06,600
Speaker 4: The skeletons because they're intact.

459
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:12,320
Speaker 2: They're intact and wrapped in burlap, burlap bags. Burlap has

460
00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:16,280
Speaker 2: been a clue that has then sent websolutors on numerable journeys.

461
00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:18,040
Speaker 3: Well because it's burlaps. So what does that mean?

462
00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:21,119
Speaker 2: Is that a landscaper shades of Joel Rifkin? Is that

463
00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:24,280
Speaker 2: a clamor because there's a lot of oysters and clams

464
00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:24,600
Speaker 2: around it.

465
00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:26,280
Speaker 3: There's a lot of theories.

466
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,720
Speaker 2: And apparently the bag was very specific, and there was

467
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,600
Speaker 2: a landscaper there who had killed himself on Long Island,

468
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,280
Speaker 2: and we went to the landscaper's business and looked at

469
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:36,920
Speaker 2: the bags.

470
00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:38,160
Speaker 3: We went down the rabbit hole.

471
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:41,399
Speaker 2: So but back to the major point, the mo changes

472
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:45,159
Speaker 2: completely with these last four women. They're found intact, wrapped

473
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:45,680
Speaker 2: in burlap.

474
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:46,639
Speaker 3: Is it one killer?

475
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:50,840
Speaker 2: He's very successful And then suddenly towards the end, after

476
00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:53,720
Speaker 2: a fifteen year, Reigin decides, you know what, I'm just

477
00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:56,640
Speaker 2: going to not take all these friends of countermeasures anymore

478
00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:01,119
Speaker 2: and leave them for the ultimate shock valueap along the side.

479
00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:02,879
Speaker 3: Or is it two guys? Now?

480
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:06,320
Speaker 2: I laugh only because I keep putting this theory out there,

481
00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:08,199
Speaker 2: and this is not just my theory. This is some

482
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:11,800
Speaker 2: other fairly intelligent individuals who I've spoken to believe it's

483
00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:15,760
Speaker 2: one killer lays these four girls out. Another killer says,

484
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:18,760
Speaker 2: oh my god, there's another killer in my neighborhood. Why

485
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,480
Speaker 2: don't I take all my body parts that I've kept

486
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:24,840
Speaker 2: over the years and throw them in his trophy garden.

487
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:26,280
Speaker 3: Two reasons to do so.

488
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:29,560
Speaker 2: One to kind of defile his trophy garden, to piss

489
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,359
Speaker 2: on his trophy garden. But more so, suddenly I could

490
00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:34,520
Speaker 2: throw all these body parts there and they'll attribute it

491
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:35,320
Speaker 2: to him.

492
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:36,280
Speaker 3: I'm in the clear.

493
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,760
Speaker 1: Is there evidence that these body parts were kept for

494
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:49,200
Speaker 1: that long?

495
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:49,880
Speaker 3: I mean, good question.

496
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:50,440
Speaker 4: Figure out?

497
00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,040
Speaker 2: The problem is the brush is so thick. Did the

498
00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:56,239
Speaker 2: guy really throw them out of the car while driving by,

499
00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:58,199
Speaker 2: or did he stop along the road and toss them out?

500
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:00,000
Speaker 3: Nobody quite knows. And look, I could be.

501
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,120
Speaker 2: You know, I think it's a Bella theory. It could

502
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,800
Speaker 2: really be wrong. But all these bodies are chopped up.

503
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:09,240
Speaker 2: There's this member. There's unbelievable friends of countermeasures being taken.

504
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 2: We know the torso. Jessica Taylor is one of the

505
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,680
Speaker 2: girls who went missing. Her body's found in Manorville, right.

506
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:17,480
Speaker 2: The rest of her body parts are found along this

507
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:21,560
Speaker 2: highway in Gilgo Beach, and she had been dismembered and

508
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:25,640
Speaker 2: her torso was left on top of a pile of

509
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:31,120
Speaker 2: leaves peaches. Her torso had been found in this cooler.

510
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:35,040
Speaker 2: Now you have a very specific type of serial killer

511
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,760
Speaker 2: called a Torso killer, and apparently, from what I'm told,

512
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:41,639
Speaker 2: Torso killers aren't a whole new world. You know, this

513
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:43,920
Speaker 2: is not a crazy dude just like murdering girls, and

514
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,239
Speaker 2: the Torso killer is he's into bodies. And so one

515
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,400
Speaker 2: of the very most famous Torso killers we know is

516
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 2: Jack the Ripper. So if you know anything about Jack

517
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:54,159
Speaker 2: the Ripper, there's the idea that there were two killers

518
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:55,800
Speaker 2: and one was a Torso killer and the other one

519
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 2: like the Whitehall chapelmers.

520
00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:58,639
Speaker 3: If you look at that history, there was some back

521
00:24:58,720 --> 00:24:59,120
Speaker 3: and forth.

522
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:03,440
Speaker 2: And Torso killer are so notorious that they're also really egocentric,

523
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:07,439
Speaker 2: and that's why some people believe that there's competition. We're

524
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 2: dealing with both competition and also throwing body parts so

525
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 2: that those individuals become that.

526
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,800
Speaker 1: Because there's also the Cleveland's Torso Killer also which is

527
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 1: also unsolved, I think right, yes.

528
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:18,080
Speaker 3: That's correct.

529
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 2: We try to bring this up in the series is

530
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 2: that out of all the serial killers you're going to meet,

531
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:26,240
Speaker 2: according to the experts, Torso killers are the worst.

532
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 1: So in case people don't know, the Torso Killer body

533
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 1: parts were found under Old Scotland yard during Jack the

534
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 1: Ripper times and it was four torsos found and they

535
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,600
Speaker 1: wouldn't connect it to Jack the Ripper because the mo

536
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:44,040
Speaker 1: was seemingly different, as if a killer isn't capable of

537
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:45,680
Speaker 1: trying to outthink and.

538
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:46,680
Speaker 4: You know, change is m O.

539
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 1: But I do believe that that idea that there are

540
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 1: just some things that a killer cannot shake.

541
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 4: It's a habit kind.

542
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:55,119
Speaker 1: Of go back and forth on whether or not you

543
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:57,720
Speaker 1: can really go off of, you know, the way that

544
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,240
Speaker 1: they've killed someone in the past and whether they've.

545
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,640
Speaker 3: Evol changed their mos. Yeah, I mean that's the whole thing.

546
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 1: Right, and it's a your person things change. In the

547
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 1: first book that I wrote, Death in the Air, was

548
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:10,199
Speaker 1: about a serial killer who while he was living in

549
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 1: tim Rillington Place, John Reginald Christy, he had a neighbor

550
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 1: move in whose wife and child were eventually murdered. John

551
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 1: Christy testified against the husband. The husband, Timothy Evans, was

552
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 1: hanged and later on, when John Christy continues to kill women,

553
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,440
Speaker 1: it occurs to the police that wait a second, maybe

554
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 1: we hanged to the wrong person. No one would believe

555
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 1: that there were two killers living in the house at

556
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 1: the same time. I absolutely believe it, and I said

557
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 1: in the book, and I said, listen, two serial killers

558
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 1: in the same house. I don't know, but one serial killer, yes,

559
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 1: with a wife beater who snapped and killed his wife.

560
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:44,639
Speaker 4: I absolutely believe it.

561
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 1: But I don't think people want to believe that there

562
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 1: are two serial killers in a place like Long Island

563
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 1: operating at the same time. But I don't think people

564
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 1: understand how many killers that are really out there.

565
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 2: Well, we tried to make that point, so we said, okay,

566
00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:59,680
Speaker 2: this is truly crazy. Well let's go back to Joel Rifkin.

567
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 2: Rifkin and there was another guy at the same time.

568
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 2: It's not crazy. In New York City, right outside our door.

569
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,160
Speaker 2: It is believed that there are six active serial killers

570
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:10,159
Speaker 2: at any one time in any major city.

571
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 3: Well, okay, I know that now. Serial killers. When I

572
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 3: say that word, what do I mean?

573
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 4: I'm a broad definition.

574
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 3: I mean, plus two.

575
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:18,920
Speaker 1: Gang members can be serial I mean when you look

576
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,199
Speaker 1: at the serial killer database, they're all lumped together. You

577
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:24,080
Speaker 1: have to kill at least two right and separate incidences,

578
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,200
Speaker 1: and there doesn't have to be a cooling off period necessarily.

579
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:29,919
Speaker 4: So our definition of serial killer is so different.

580
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 2: That's correct, But it's not that crazy that there are

581
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,200
Speaker 2: the two types of serial killers that we think about

582
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,360
Speaker 2: going on. It happened in Long Island not but ten

583
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 2: years previously, so we tried to make that point.

584
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:44,120
Speaker 3: This is not that crazy.

585
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:46,919
Speaker 2: Long Island is a big, big place that would be

586
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:49,159
Speaker 2: considered one of the largest cities in the United States

587
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 2: in terms of populace, and it's very bedroom community, you know,

588
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:55,680
Speaker 2: So it's not that crazy.

589
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 4: So where has Shannon.

590
00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 3: Shannon has disappeared in all this, She's never found out.

591
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 2: Basically, in twenty eleven, as the police are wrestling with,

592
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 2: oh my god, we have a huge serial killer on

593
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:11,119
Speaker 2: our hands. One two, we don't know, they find Shannon's body.

594
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 2: They find it in Oak Beach, in this gated community

595
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:19,680
Speaker 2: in a marsh, and basically they first find her cell phone,

596
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 2: then they find some of her clothing, then they find

597
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:23,399
Speaker 2: her body.

598
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 4: And this is not far from the escorts.

599
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 2: She was about two miles from the escorts but like,

600
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 2: you have to go outside this gated community, you have

601
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 2: to go down the road. So this brings up one

602
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 2: of the craziest either links or coincidences I've ever seen

603
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 2: in true crime. Because Shannon's body is found, she's intact,

604
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 2: we don't know what happened to her. To the police,

605
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 2: it looks like as if she died of exposure out

606
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:51,959
Speaker 2: in the middle of this marsh.

607
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 4: She got lost, she fell in the marsh. She died,

608
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 4: that's right.

609
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 3: But why are her clothes off?

610
00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 1: They would say, is there DNA evidence from someone on

611
00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 1: her her other than the man she read on?

612
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 2: And I literally had a conversation with the police chief

613
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 2: about this, the commissioner at the time. He's like, people,

614
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 2: they're speculating, they're doing this. I was like, because you

615
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 2: don't release information. If you released information, you would stop

616
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 2: the speculation. However, let's talk about Shannon Gilbert. Could we

617
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 2: somehow believe that her death around the same time is

618
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 2: not related to the deaths of these four sex workers

619
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 2: who are found two miles away. She said on the

620
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 2: telephone they were trying to kill me. But her body

621
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 2: is found. Their close her off and she's dead in

622
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 2: this marsh. The police refused to release the nine to

623
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 2: one one tape.

624
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 1: So something's going on there twenty three minute tape, all right.

625
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 2: So there's a lot of other questions that are brought

626
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 2: up by Shannon Gilbert's disappearance, which leads to these other

627
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 2: bodies being found, but yet her case, the police are

628
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 2: saying she died of exposure. To test that theory, myself

629
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 2: and Rachel, my partner in this, we went out into

630
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 2: that marsh and I have to tell you, I could

631
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 2: totally see how that could happen. It is a marsh,

632
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 2: It is two to three feet of water that's flooded

633
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 2: or not flooded. She disappeared in May or something like that.

634
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 2: I would have to check the date. But everybody's like,

635
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 2: I don't understand. How could she die of exposure in May?

636
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 2: Let me tell you it is freezing cold out there

637
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 2: in May, freezing cold. What some people believe is that

638
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,719
Speaker 2: basically she had been doing drugs, maybe MDMA, and she

639
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 2: might have been taking bipolar medicine. The combination of the

640
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 2: two creates the internal cooling and basically you get hypothermia.

641
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 2: You start to take off, you get really hot because

642
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 2: you're on MDMA, you start to take off your clothes.

643
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 4: Wait, what's that drugs?

644
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:45,960
Speaker 3: Okay, ecstasy, It's okay, get the dumb it down for me. Yeah. No.

645
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 2: So basically, it raises your internal body temperature. Even though

646
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 2: it's cold out, your internal body temperature is so high

647
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 2: it kicks off your internal cooling system. You try and

648
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 2: cool yourself, you take off clothes, and then you die

649
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 2: of exposure. She had also been found hunched under a bush. Now,

650
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 2: there's something called terminal burrowing syndrome. It's very weird anomaly,

651
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 2: but it happens to people like who freeze to death outside.

652
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 3: You found it.

653
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 2: When people die in like hikers or skiers, they'll take

654
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 2: off their clothes. Basically, your lizard brain kicks in and

655
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:20,719
Speaker 2: you try and burrow underneath something for warmth.

656
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,720
Speaker 4: So what does Shannon's mother think about this theory of it.

657
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 2: Shannon's mother does not believe it. She had gotten First

658
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 2: of all, the police were very mysterious. They did a

659
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 2: bad job of doing an initial investigation. The police refused

660
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 2: to release this twenty three minute tape. She has been

661
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 2: contacted by a weird doctor who says, don't worry, she's okay,

662
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 2: but she left my house. They gave her medicine or

663
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 2: something like that. Joseph Brewer, the client had been spoken

664
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 2: to by police and questioned up and down. He says,

665
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 2: she freaked out, ran out. All this weird stuff is

666
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 2: going on now. I've interviewed the mom, I've interviewed the

667
00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 2: whole family more than them, just believing this is some

668
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 2: drug adled tragic freak out that led to somebody dying

669
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 2: by exposure. How do you reconcile that story with them?

670
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 2: That leading to the discovery of a huge serial killer,

671
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 2: one if not two, who have been killing sex workers.

672
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 3: For ten years.

673
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, big coincidence, unbelievable.

674
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 2: These factors have then gone in to create what we

675
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 2: have now, the Lost Girls movie that's coming out. Bob

676
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:30,960
Speaker 2: Kolger's book, Lost Girls, unbelievable book. Bob and I have

677
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 2: become friends and talked quite a bit about this. We

678
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 2: use that book as the roadmap for our series.

679
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 1: So this case is getting a lot of exposure right now, Yes,

680
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 1: a lot of exposure.

681
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 3: Tell me it's going to get bigger.

682
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 1: And you wanted to talk to me about Peaches, Tell

683
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 1: me about Peaches. Shoot, there's a couple of key characters

684
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 1: in here that you can kind of latch onto that

685
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 1: don't represent all the sex workers, but it kind of

686
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 1: makes you understand the different circumstances that these women were in.

687
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:57,800
Speaker 4: Right, So what's Peach's story.

688
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting that you bring up Peach, but let's

689
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 2: tie Peaches into something else, the tape. Why are the

690
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 2: police not releasing the tape?

691
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 3: Did they lose the tape? Could be? Could be?

692
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 2: There are rumors that have circulated around this Oak Beach

693
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 2: of a boys club slash kind of eyes wide shutish

694
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 2: male thing going on where they're killing these sex workers

695
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 2: and then dropping them along the highway.

696
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 4: Geez, people will spin.

697
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 2: That story and and his and his Hacket the doctor

698
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 2: part of it. Now, I don't think he's part of it.

699
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:38,480
Speaker 2: But then why would he call up say I know

700
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 2: where your daughter is. I think Hacket's one of these

701
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 2: crazy people who like inject themselves into criminal cases. Don't worry,

702
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 2: it's going to be okay. Says that to the mother

703
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:51,959
Speaker 2: without really even knowing. He has a history of this

704
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 2: kind of like hero complex. He was doing crazy things

705
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 2: to inject himself as a hero, and he's got a

706
00:33:57,480 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 2: history of that. He's also got a bum leg, So

707
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 2: I don't think he's chasing Shannon through the woods. But

708
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 2: there's another thing at play here, the police themselves. I

709
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 2: told you originally that the police were kind of befuddled

710
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 2: by what was going on. This police chief Richard Dormer

711
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:17,759
Speaker 2: at the time, nice old gentleman irish, didn't know if

712
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 2: it was one or two. And he had gotten in

713
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:22,319
Speaker 2: this kind of pissing match, if you will, with the

714
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 2: District Attorney named Tom Spoda. Good old boys who have

715
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 2: been in the Suffolk County Police Department system for years. Now.

716
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 2: Remember how I said how the Suffolk Police Department is

717
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 2: very powerful, well paid, very powerful and they're a force

718
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,400
Speaker 2: of their own. Richard Dormer, he was basically fired for

719
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 2: having this spat against how many serial killers there were

720
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 2: with the attorney and the DA's been Spoda has been

721
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 2: in there for decades. He names a guy the police chief,

722
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 2: James Burke. Now, James Burke is an interesting fellow. James

723
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:58,360
Speaker 2: Burke has a real sordid history and testified force Spoda

724
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:00,880
Speaker 2: in a case many many years ago when Burke was

725
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 2: a kid. Basically Burke had known some kids who killed

726
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 2: another kid and he said, oh yeah, I saw them,

727
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:08,799
Speaker 2: you know. So he's had this very long friendship with

728
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:12,279
Speaker 2: Spoda and Burke is the police chief for a long time,

729
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:14,279
Speaker 2: and there were a lot of issues, is like, why

730
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:16,319
Speaker 2: were the police not talking about this case?

731
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:18,160
Speaker 3: Why were they not doing anything.

732
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:23,800
Speaker 2: We come to subsequently find out that Burke had basically stimied.

733
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 3: The Long Island serial killer investigation.

734
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:29,360
Speaker 2: He prevented the FBI from coming in and doing a

735
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:29,919
Speaker 2: lot of work.

736
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 4: I was going to ask you that when is the

737
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:33,280
Speaker 4: federal government coming into this.

738
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 3: Right, Well, first of all, you as you know, the

739
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 3: federal government has to be asked. Oh no, I did

740
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:38,760
Speaker 3: not know that has.

741
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:41,439
Speaker 2: To be asked to come in the FBI behavioral Task Force,

742
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:45,920
Speaker 2: you know, behavioral science units, that's right. So we interviewed

743
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 2: a whole bunch of them, some very interesting guys. So

744
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 2: this is the Clary's Starling behavioral science unit, right.

745
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 1: Kind of mind hunters, trying to figure out what personality,

746
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:57,719
Speaker 1: what kind of person we're supposed to be looking out for.

747
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:00,200
Speaker 2: Right, there's those contingent of people who say literal really

748
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,279
Speaker 2: it's just the same old fortune teller type of work

749
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 2: man in the basement, you know, white male. You know,

750
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,359
Speaker 2: I'm assuming white male in the mother's basement Okay, they

751
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 2: have to be asked. They can't like just jump in.

752
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 2: As you know, police departments are very territorial for a

753
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 2: long time. Yes, they did a profile, but they didn't

754
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:19,400
Speaker 2: go in and like work boots on the ground with

755
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 2: this case.

756
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 3: And there was a lot of questions why.

757
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:25,719
Speaker 2: What we later find out is that James Burke was

758
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:26,959
Speaker 2: a real dirty cop.

759
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 4: He was the police chief.

760
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 2: The police chief was a real dirty cop, and he

761
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 2: didn't want the FEDS in. And we don't really know why,

762
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 2: but we think it's because he had this fiefdom and

763
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:39,760
Speaker 2: he just wanted to rule it. And if the FEDS

764
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 2: came in and they would start snooping around, they may

765
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:44,359
Speaker 2: find some of the other stuff that he was quote

766
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 2: unquote doing, although we technically don't know what that is.

767
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:47,840
Speaker 4: Nobody wants to.

768
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,759
Speaker 1: Lose control of an investigation when it's your investigation. Also

769
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:51,840
Speaker 1: at a minimum, right.

770
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 2: Sure, right, at a minimum, and there's territorialist right, But

771
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 2: if you're also somewhat dirty and the FBI is coming in,

772
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 2: they may find something that you don't want them to find.

773
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 2: Now we don't quite know what that was, but I've

774
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:08,880
Speaker 2: spoken to many many detectives who worked on other cases.

775
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,319
Speaker 3: For example, the gang task Force.

776
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 2: Now this is the same gang task force when we

777
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 2: talk about MS thirteen in Long Island. Burke stopped that

778
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 2: gang task force from happening in coordination with the FBI.

779
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 2: That is what started to signal the alarm bells for

780
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 2: Loretta Lynch, Attorney General of New York.

781
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 3: I think at the time.

782
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:34,360
Speaker 2: And basically they started to go after James Burke, the

783
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:35,800
Speaker 2: police chief, thinking he.

784
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 4: Was dirty, like he's connected to Well.

785
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:41,279
Speaker 3: That's the interesting thing. What's he connected to?

786
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:44,399
Speaker 2: Is he connected to some weird old boy network that's

787
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 2: killing prostitutes. Now we do know, interestingly enough, that Burke

788
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 2: is connected to prostitutes. He has a relationship with an

789
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 2: African American prostitute and in numerous conversations with people and

790
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:58,080
Speaker 2: could this is quite real? I have no problem saying this.

791
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:01,400
Speaker 2: It's been said that he how was involved in the

792
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 2: sex trade himself.

793
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 4: So there's a lot of things that play in this story.

794
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:07,320
Speaker 1: And where are we with the media at this point

795
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 1: once we now have ten to sixteen bodies laid.

796
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 4: Out, is a media freaking out or.

797
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 1: Is this still a story that's sort of been quelled

798
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 1: by the cops.

799
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:18,360
Speaker 2: There was the initial freak out everybody on Good Morning America.

800
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 3: Oh my god, what's going on.

801
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 2: There was the Nancy Grace, same old bs which would

802
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 2: have the victims' families on. There was the People magazine.

803
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 2: There was all that stuff propping up the victims' families.

804
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 2: Is so wonderful when there was a lot of issues

805
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 2: going on, and we've known, I've met a lot of

806
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:37,080
Speaker 2: the victims again, interviewed Marie Gilbert and the whole family,

807
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:38,680
Speaker 2: and a lot of them are very, very nice, but

808
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 2: there were issues. But at some point, you know, the

809
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:42,759
Speaker 2: media can only do so much. They just move on

810
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:45,400
Speaker 2: to the next case, especially when there's these mysteries. The

811
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 2: Long Island Police for many years refused to discuss the

812
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 2: case unless they had some new information, and that's where

813
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 2: we came into the picture, because we felt that they

814
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:56,359
Speaker 2: were styming the investigation. We later find out they were

815
00:38:56,400 --> 00:39:01,320
Speaker 2: styming the investigation. James Burke finally gets arrest for beating

816
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 2: a kid basically who had gone in and stolen his

817
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 2: duffel bag out of his car, and in the duffel

818
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:11,359
Speaker 2: bag in the car is apparently what's found is quote

819
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:12,800
Speaker 2: unquote nasty porn.

820
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 3: Gosh okay, So.

821
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:17,320
Speaker 4: This guy's finally arrested and taken out of the position.

822
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:19,319
Speaker 2: Police chiefs arrested, taken out of the position. We know

823
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:22,360
Speaker 2: he's got connections with sex workers, we know he's employing

824
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 2: sex workers, we know he goes to sex workers, and

825
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 2: there is a lot of shady stuff going on with him.

826
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:30,319
Speaker 1: And this is a good time for you or any

827
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:33,319
Speaker 1: investigator to go in because then there is a new

828
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:37,319
Speaker 1: sheriff in town who is taking up the mantle and

829
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,880
Speaker 1: hopefully these guys they like to reverse everything the person

830
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 1: before them did, especially if they were crooked. Did you

831
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 1: find somebody who was a little more willing to share information?

832
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 2: Tom Cini, who became first the interim police Commissioner and

833
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 2: then became the DA because subsequently, and this was literally

834
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 2: just a couple of weeks ago, the DA Tom's Boda

835
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 2: was convicted. W you don't convict a district attorney who's

836
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 2: been in that position for twenty five years unless bad

837
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:12,400
Speaker 2: stuff is going convicted of what protecting Burke in his

838
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 2: whole investigation. Basically, what they're doing is they're steyming investigations.

839
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 4: Like tampering with evidence.

840
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:22,800
Speaker 2: Now, yeah, they're stymying investigations because they are doing bad stuff.

841
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:25,239
Speaker 2: We don't know exactly what they're doing, and there's a

842
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:27,839
Speaker 2: lot of people think that one of the things they

843
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:30,879
Speaker 2: were styming was the Long Island serial killer case. Were

844
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 2: they stymying it because they didn't want the FEDS in

845
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 2: to see what else they were doing? Were they stymy

846
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 2: it because if they went in they would find out

847
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:42,759
Speaker 2: that their police chief is a sexual predator? Or would

848
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:44,880
Speaker 2: they find out that their police chief is not just

849
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 2: a sexual predator, but is also part of this group

850
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:50,920
Speaker 2: of guys who are killing sex workers and Shannon is

851
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:53,440
Speaker 2: somehow connected to that, Like this is where all the

852
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:55,240
Speaker 2: conspiracy theories starts to come about.

853
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 3: At this point, I don't know. Is he a serial killer? No?

854
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:00,360
Speaker 3: Think so.

855
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 2: Is he connected to a philosophy about women are disposable?

856
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:05,759
Speaker 3: Yes?

857
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 2: And did that philosophy basically hinder this investigation and allow one,

858
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 2: if not more serial killers to remain out there? I

859
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:18,880
Speaker 2: believe that is Shannon Gilbert connected in this way.

860
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 3: I don't know.

861
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 2: It's either one of the craziest coincidences I've ever heard,

862
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 2: or she is.

863
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 4: Is Peaches in that section with work or no?

864
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:28,840
Speaker 3: So good question.

865
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:32,120
Speaker 4: Peach is the one that's going to get us sued

866
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:32,800
Speaker 4: is it Josh.

867
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 2: Now, Peaches was found, as I mentioned before, in a

868
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:42,640
Speaker 2: container in Hempstead. So there's the names where all the

869
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:45,799
Speaker 2: missing people are either missing persons or the DNA and

870
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:49,320
Speaker 2: everything like that. And Peaches was found in ninety seven

871
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:53,480
Speaker 2: in Nassau County. The rest of these bodies pretty much

872
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:57,680
Speaker 2: were found in Suffolk County, although they were right up

873
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:02,640
Speaker 2: against the line the killer again taking very specific forensic

874
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:06,759
Speaker 2: countermeasures and knowing that police departments don't speak to each other,

875
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 2: some are buried on one side of the county line

876
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 2: versus the other. That's why somebody says, oh, he's law enforcement,

877
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 2: he would know, he would know by separating them out

878
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:18,359
Speaker 2: that it's just an additional layer of using the police's

879
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:25,000
Speaker 2: own issues against them. So we start to re ask

880
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 2: the medical examiner, could you please resubmit some of the

881
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 2: Jane Doe DNA into the system the code is system

882
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 2: to see if it matches. About a week later, we

883
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:38,359
Speaker 2: get back a very quick response that says baby Dough

884
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:41,840
Speaker 2: is the child of Peaches. They had been sitting on

885
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:45,960
Speaker 2: this information and not making it public. They had not

886
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:48,960
Speaker 2: been making the fact that they knew that this baby

887
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 2: was connected to this Torso found in Nassau.

888
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 4: County till two different counties, two.

889
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:58,799
Speaker 2: Different counties, So why is that a polykey something they

890
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 2: were holding back because they want people to know, or

891
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 2: were they trying again to prevent the FEDS from coming

892
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:08,960
Speaker 2: in because if suddenly it's more counties are involved and

893
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:12,880
Speaker 2: that's another police department. So is this dirty cop scenario

894
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:16,960
Speaker 2: basically other ways preventing this case from getting solved.

895
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:19,960
Speaker 1: So at this point, what do you think, who is

896
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 1: this guy or these these two people? Does it just

897
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:25,600
Speaker 1: seem like this has to be somebody in law enforcement

898
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 1: that is the most likely.

899
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:29,719
Speaker 2: I still think it's two people because the mos are

900
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:32,839
Speaker 2: so different because of the time periods and just the

901
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:36,160
Speaker 2: way in which the second set of body parts came

902
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:38,200
Speaker 2: were discovered after the first.

903
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:40,880
Speaker 3: And everybody's like, no, that that's ridiculous.

904
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:42,919
Speaker 2: When I say two serial killers, they're like, how could

905
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:44,919
Speaker 2: two serial killers use the same dumping around.

906
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:47,000
Speaker 3: I'm like, no, it's not that they're using the same

907
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:47,720
Speaker 3: dumping around.

908
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 2: It's one guy gets the recognition and then the other guy,

909
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:53,920
Speaker 2: the Torso killer, who's been there for years, kind of

910
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 2: is pissed. Yeah, or again, this is a great, great

911
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:00,080
Speaker 2: opportunity for me to throw my final body parts that

912
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 2: had been keeping in my little trophy garden in somebody

913
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:03,360
Speaker 2: else's trophy.

914
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 1: You certainly can't ever underestimate the hubris of a serial killer.

915
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:08,560
Speaker 4: Ever.

916
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:11,600
Speaker 2: No, it's the same thing as free killers, right, It's

917
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 2: the same hubris.

918
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 4: It's just a.

919
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 2: Different methodology of making themselves feel better, right, you know,

920
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 2: or more important?

921
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:21,040
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, look at BTK. I mean, you know,

922
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 1: he might not have been caught had he not been

923
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:25,760
Speaker 1: stupid enough to send these letters to the cops.

924
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:29,240
Speaker 2: Sure, now to do it now it's posting manifestos online.

925
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 2: But you know, it's real. It's just all ego, That's

926
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:33,319
Speaker 2: all we're really dealing with.

927
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:35,799
Speaker 1: So are these guys kind of in the same vein?

928
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:38,800
Speaker 1: I mean, are these both someone in law enforcement or

929
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:40,760
Speaker 1: at least someone who watches a whole lot of CSI

930
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:43,720
Speaker 1: they're too good, so professionally trained in some ways.

931
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:45,560
Speaker 2: In some way, do we need to talk about how

932
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 2: many serial killers are some form of law enforcement, weather

933
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 2: corrections officers, former police officers, military, military. Come on, I mean,

934
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,200
Speaker 2: it's like that's the dirty secret. It's not really a

935
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 2: dirty secret. It again, is about control. If you are

936
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 2: a serial killer, and you love to control victims to

937
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:05,520
Speaker 2: the point of killing them. You also love being a

938
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:07,799
Speaker 2: cop or something like that. I have no problem with cops.

939
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 2: I love cops, you know, rank and file. But that's

940
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:12,200
Speaker 2: just that's just a mental mentally what we're talking about here,

941
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:15,919
Speaker 2: right right, You know, we're not talking about losers very

942
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:18,840
Speaker 2: rarely are we talking about the Jeffrey Dahmers. We're really

943
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 2: talking more about buying, torture, killed type of guys who

944
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 2: are into power and control, and this is one extension

945
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 2: of that power and control. Some people they're sadists, corrections officers,

946
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:33,520
Speaker 2: things like that. Again, I have no problem with these guys,

947
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:37,360
Speaker 2: but this is just the stark reality that maybe the

948
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:39,399
Speaker 2: behavioral science doesn't want to talk about.

949
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:41,280
Speaker 4: So what was the official profile?

950
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:44,920
Speaker 2: White male, white mail, twenty and thirty or forty knows

951
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:48,320
Speaker 2: some kind of law enforcement techniques, lives in Long Island.

952
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:49,040
Speaker 3: That was a big one.

953
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:51,280
Speaker 2: Lives in Long Island, because how would he know about

954
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 2: this very specific area. You want to catch this guy.

955
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 2: He's online, well, obviously on back page. At least Backpage

956
00:45:57,520 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 2: got shut down, but yeah, you know he's online. You

957
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:02,160
Speaker 2: know he's online. He's trolling sex workers. The question is

958
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:03,960
Speaker 2: he hasn't done it, So was he in a crazy

959
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:06,319
Speaker 2: cooling off period or just like there's too much heat.

960
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:09,840
Speaker 2: He's not stupid, as we know, it's not this crazy,

961
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:13,720
Speaker 2: barking dog compulsion to do this. Serial Killers get married,

962
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:15,840
Speaker 2: they have children, they find a different job.

963
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:18,560
Speaker 1: I will tell you the most stunning thing that occurred

964
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 1: to me about serial killers is I always thought that

965
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:25,279
Speaker 1: they stop because they either move and nobody picks up

966
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 1: that there's activity in another state because there's no connection,

967
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:30,160
Speaker 1: or they die or they end up in prison.

968
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:32,439
Speaker 3: That's that's the same old, same old.

969
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 1: But it never occurred to me until the Golden State

970
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:38,919
Speaker 1: killer got caught that they age out. It seemed clear

971
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:40,880
Speaker 1: that this guy was not going to be jumping through

972
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:44,439
Speaker 1: windows and escaping. So, I mean, is this somebody who

973
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:46,680
Speaker 1: just finally just might have said I can't really do

974
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:47,280
Speaker 1: this anymore.

975
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:48,960
Speaker 4: I pH physically incapable of doing.

976
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 2: We're talking about bodies that were't found in ninety six,

977
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:51,920
Speaker 2: you know what I'm saying.

978
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:54,720
Speaker 1: So you're looking at somebody my age forty five probably

979
00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:57,040
Speaker 1: if they're let's say they're twenty years old in ninety six,

980
00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:00,040
Speaker 1: so they're in their forties. What's your fear here, but

981
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 1: this has not stopped that he's going to pop back up.

982
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 2: Either he didn't want to get caught, or he left.

983
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:07,440
Speaker 2: Maybe he did go to prison, maybe he did age out,

984
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:09,400
Speaker 2: maybe he did have a girlfriend. My fears that the

985
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:11,360
Speaker 2: case is never going to get solved, But then again,

986
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:15,040
Speaker 2: most serial Kala cases take upwards of twenty plus to

987
00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:15,680
Speaker 2: get solved.

988
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:18,240
Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying, what's the DNA? What's happening

989
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:18,839
Speaker 1: right now?

990
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:20,360
Speaker 4: A couple weeks to.

991
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:23,360
Speaker 2: Get question so finally fu And this is where I

992
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:27,759
Speaker 2: get pissed off because some police organizations are proactive and

993
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 2: they will do what they need to do. The problem

994
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 2: is is that the previous corruption, which may or may

995
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:36,319
Speaker 2: not be linked to this case, has tainted the investigation

996
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 2: to such a degree that everything else becomes incredibly either

997
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:45,799
Speaker 2: slow again tainted, evidence lost, and it's very hard to

998
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:51,680
Speaker 2: separate out what's in competence, malfeasants, or not the police's fault.

999
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:54,520
Speaker 2: We're always criticizing the police, and now I'm the first one,

1000
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:56,960
Speaker 2: but I'm also one of the first ones to defend him, because.

1001
00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:58,840
Speaker 3: These are just not easy cases to solve.

1002
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:01,000
Speaker 2: But the problem is this is there is a bad

1003
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:05,279
Speaker 2: seed came in and basically shot the whole thing, so

1004
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:08,680
Speaker 2: they won't release the nine one one tape. Why does

1005
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:11,920
Speaker 2: this sex worker say, oh my God, help me. Someone

1006
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:15,879
Speaker 2: called James Burke because she happened to have gone to him.

1007
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:16,919
Speaker 3: You know what I'm saying?

1008
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:19,480
Speaker 4: What about the operator? Nobody can talk to her?

1009
00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:22,680
Speaker 2: I mean, that's a good question. I don't know about that.

1010
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:26,240
Speaker 2: I interviewed Marie Gilbert, Shannon Gilbert's mother. I interviewed Shannon

1011
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:29,439
Speaker 2: Gilbert's sister. A couple of years ago, Shannon Gilbert's mother

1012
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:34,880
Speaker 2: was killed by Shannon Gilbert's sister in a psychotic event,

1013
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:38,560
Speaker 2: stabbed wow. And I met them both and interviewed them both.

1014
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:44,280
Speaker 2: There is a history of bipolar disorder. There is indications

1015
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:47,880
Speaker 2: that she could freak out and have a serious freak out.

1016
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:54,040
Speaker 2: The daughter her sister killed her mother, hearing voices, paranoia

1017
00:48:54,239 --> 00:48:56,880
Speaker 2: and if you know how schizophrenia works and how it

1018
00:48:56,880 --> 00:49:01,240
Speaker 2: gets exacerbated in certain times in which it reaches fruition,

1019
00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:04,440
Speaker 2: aging and things like that, it's not that crazy.

1020
00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 1: But has she had those episodes before, Shannon? Has anybody

1021
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:08,600
Speaker 1: did a mom say?

1022
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:10,880
Speaker 2: The sister say, It's hard to say because she was

1023
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:13,279
Speaker 2: living away from her family's You know what I'm saying,

1024
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:16,640
Speaker 2: It's like, if Shannon Gilbert is not connected, are you

1025
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 2: telling me that a girl goes missing, a sex worker

1026
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:26,280
Speaker 2: and two miles away in one of the greatest coincidences

1027
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:30,799
Speaker 2: of all time, that sex workers disappearance leads to discovery

1028
00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:34,360
Speaker 2: of one of the most crazy unsolved serial killer cases

1029
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:38,880
Speaker 2: in the last century, and sixteen sex workers not just

1030
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:39,960
Speaker 2: two and a half miles away.

1031
00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:42,440
Speaker 4: Well, let me ask you this just for fun.

1032
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:43,719
Speaker 3: I say, I agree with that.

1033
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 1: I think so you think that they're connected or I

1034
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:46,520
Speaker 1: don't think they're connected.

1035
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:48,759
Speaker 3: I think it's one of the craziest coincidences I've ever seen.

1036
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:50,759
Speaker 1: Well, because what I was going to say was if

1037
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:53,759
Speaker 1: you are thinking, if we are thinking these are connected, boy,

1038
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:55,200
Speaker 1: what a different mom this is.

1039
00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:58,760
Speaker 2: You're going to call a driver and have the driver

1040
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:02,680
Speaker 2: bring the girl to the house, and then suddenly you're

1041
00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:04,839
Speaker 2: going to kill that girl and what send the driver

1042
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:07,239
Speaker 2: home with an extra twenty bucks? I mean, that's not

1043
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 2: gonna happen. Yeah, then everybody's gonna say, well, the driver's connected.

1044
00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:13,920
Speaker 2: I don't really think the driver's connected. It's all too traceable,

1045
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:17,040
Speaker 2: Like that would be the dumbest move by apparently two

1046
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:19,000
Speaker 2: super smart serial killers.

1047
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:20,160
Speaker 3: Right, you know what I'm saying.

1048
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:24,400
Speaker 2: It does all these friends account of countermeasures, separating kids

1049
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:28,640
Speaker 2: and dropping body parts and torso killings over here over there,

1050
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:32,160
Speaker 2: using all and we haven't even gotten into the fact

1051
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 2: that the killer called the sister of one of the.

1052
00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:35,759
Speaker 4: Well, I didn't know that.

1053
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:38,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, how do we know this is real? Used her phone?

1054
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:43,240
Speaker 2: Oh Jesus, call was pinged, called from somewhere in Times Square.

1055
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 2: Well he's not stupid. Well, yeah, spoke to the sister

1056
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:51,520
Speaker 2: who we interviewed. Girl, her, your sister was a whore,

1057
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 2: you're half breed. Using weird statements. We got a whole

1058
00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:57,400
Speaker 2: bunch of people who we thought might have been and

1059
00:50:57,440 --> 00:50:59,160
Speaker 2: we played the tape for the sister to see if

1060
00:50:59,200 --> 00:50:59,920
Speaker 2: she would recognize.

1061
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:01,760
Speaker 3: But no, that was the four girls.

1062
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:03,600
Speaker 1: It sounds like I could Jack the ripper want to

1063
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:06,239
Speaker 1: be you know, we using the horror and all of that,

1064
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:07,960
Speaker 1: like somebody who wants to be infamous.

1065
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:09,200
Speaker 4: Obviously, it's the whole thing.

1066
00:51:09,239 --> 00:51:12,200
Speaker 2: These things get solved because of DNA or the girlfriend

1067
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:15,719
Speaker 2: who finally flips on the husband, or or something comes

1068
00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:17,880
Speaker 2: up and somebody says something somewhere.

1069
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:19,880
Speaker 3: Well, let's hope so that's all we can do.

1070
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:26,520
Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked Words.

1071
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:31,640
Speaker 5: How could a girl be considered kidnapped if she's not

1072
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:34,879
Speaker 5: tied up, if she's not shackled. But there's so much

1073
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:38,080
Speaker 5: you can do psychologically and mentally that in many ways

1074
00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:42,920
Speaker 5: can create even more trauma than being physically bound.

1075
00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:58,040
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime, please check out my

1076
00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:00,920
Speaker 1: books American Sherlock and Death In the year this has

1077
00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:04,759
Speaker 1: been an exactly right tenfold More Media Production. Alexis Andmrosi

1078
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:07,560
Speaker 1: is our producer, Andrew Eapan is our sound designer. Ellen

1079
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:10,960
Speaker 1: Middleton is a researcher for us. Curtis Heath does the composition,

1080
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:14,600
Speaker 1: Nick Toga did the artwork, and ilsa Brink design the website.

1081
00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:18,960
Speaker 1: The executive producers are Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff and Daniel Kramer.

1082
00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:22,319
Speaker 1: Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more

1083
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:25,120
Speaker 1: Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold More. If you are

1084
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:28,000
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1085
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1086
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:33,360
Speaker 1: a historical true crime story that could use some attention

1087
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:36,520
Speaker 1: from the crew at tenfold more Wicked, email us at

1088
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:40,920
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1089
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1090
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