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Speaker 1: Pushkin.

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Speaker 2: Hey, doctor Laurie Santo's here here at the Happiness Lab.

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Speaker 2: We spend a lot of time talking about the happiness

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Speaker 2: benefits of being a fan, and it just so happens

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Speaker 2: that another Pushkin podcast has gone deep into this topic.

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Speaker 2: It's a show called Against the Rules, hosted by best

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Speaker 2: selling author Michael Lewis. Michael Lewis is the brains behind

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Speaker 2: books like Moneyball, The Big Shore, and Liar's Poker. This

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Speaker 2: season of Against the Rules is all about sports fandom,

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Speaker 2: but also sports gambling, which was legalized in the US

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Speaker 2: just a few years ago. From a happiness perspective, this

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Speaker 2: is a fascinating topic. Michael talks with gambling addicts, but

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Speaker 2: also pro basketball stars, Vegas bookies, and even experts in

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Speaker 2: casino design. I also get to make it appearance. I

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Speaker 2: really enjoyed our conversation, So if you're a little bit curious,

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Speaker 2: I urge you to check out Against the Rules and

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Speaker 2: subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to February.

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Speaker 2: It's a month of cold weather but warm hearts thanks

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Speaker 2: to Valentine's Day. Love is in the air this time

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Speaker 2: of year, so we're devoting two shows of our new

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Speaker 2: how to season to the science of relationships, and we're

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Speaker 2: kicking things off with dating. Many of us feel like

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Speaker 2: we're getting dating all wrong. We chase the wrong people entirely,

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Speaker 2: or we chase the right people in the wrong way.

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Speaker 2: But what if we used science to find the ideal partner.

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Speaker 2: That's what we'll be exploring today, how to date like

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Speaker 2: a scientist, and we have the perfect expert to help

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Speaker 2: us down those relationship lab codes. Logan Uri is the

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Speaker 2: director of relationship science at the dating app Hinge. She's

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Speaker 2: also the dating coach for the new Netflix show The

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Speaker 2: Later Daters, and the author of an awesome book, How

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Speaker 2: to Not Die Alone. With a CV like that, you

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Speaker 2: might think Logan's been a dating with since high school,

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Speaker 2: but you'd be wrong.

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Speaker 3: I haven't always been great at finding love for myself,

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Speaker 3: but I think the fact that I was unlucky in

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Speaker 3: love for many years actually makes me better at what

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Speaker 3: I do, because I think for people who met the

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Speaker 3: love of their life in high school or were just

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Speaker 3: so beautiful that people were falling all over them their

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Speaker 3: whole lives, I think it's harder to relate to the

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Speaker 3: experience that most people go through, which is that finding

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Speaker 3: a partner is really challenging. There's a lot of rejection involved.

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Speaker 3: It's just a difficult thing that many of us go through.

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Speaker 3: And I feel like, even though now I've been happily

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Speaker 3: married and with my partner for a long time, I'm

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Speaker 3: really glad that I had those experiences so that I

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Speaker 3: can relate to the average daters experience.

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Speaker 2: Any dating was that you'd be willing to share for

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Speaker 2: the show to give a sense of the fact that

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Speaker 2: you had challenged it dating early on.

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Speaker 3: The thing that comes to mind for me is this

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Speaker 3: story that in my book I referred to as burning

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Speaker 3: Man Brian definitely not his real name, not Brian. It

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Speaker 3: really has to do with my anxious attachment. And so

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Speaker 3: I had a trend when I was dating where if

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Speaker 3: somebody rejected me, instead of saying, oh, we're not a

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Speaker 3: fit or that person's not interested in me, I would say, oh, well,

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Speaker 3: if they rejected me, they must be better than me,

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Speaker 3: and I should try to convince them to be with me.

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Speaker 3: So when I met this person at Burning Man and

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Speaker 3: we had this pretty epic love affair, and then I

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Speaker 3: came back and I was like, Okay, well, now we're

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Speaker 3: both back in San Francisco. Of course, we're just going

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Speaker 3: to start dating because we had so much fun at

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Speaker 3: Burning Man, and he was not interested in that at all.

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Speaker 3: And so instead of just understanding that not only was

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Speaker 3: he not interested, but also not really a good fit

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Speaker 3: for real life, I set out on this goal to

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Speaker 3: convince him to be with me. And so the more

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Speaker 3: he pulled away with his avoidant attachment style, the more

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Speaker 3: I pursued him. And that was really my definition of love.

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Speaker 3: And I just remember sitting on my friend's couch, crying,

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Speaker 3: why won't he be with me? Why is he rejecting me?

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Speaker 3: Why am I not good enough? And really trying to

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Speaker 3: apply all these lessons from other aspects of my life,

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Speaker 3: like getting my dream job or getting the apartment I wanted,

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Speaker 3: And you just can't do that with love. It's not

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Speaker 3: the kind of thing where more effort always tell someone Okay,

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Speaker 3: well then I should be with you. And so I

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Speaker 3: was lucky enough to about a year later, find my

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Speaker 3: now husband, Scott, who coincidentally worked in your lab when

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Speaker 3: he was in college. But yes, really learning the lessons

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Speaker 3: of what a secure partner looks like and understanding that

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Speaker 3: a lot of the traits that this Burning man Brian

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Speaker 3: guy had were red flags, but instead I was just like,

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Speaker 3: how can I convince him to be with me?

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Speaker 2: It's always your this wonderful example, because I think when

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Speaker 2: we see people who are experts on relationship were giving

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Speaker 2: lots of relationship advice, you might assume that they were

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Speaker 2: kind of born with those instincts. But you've argued that

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Speaker 2: that's really not the case, that this is something we

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Speaker 2: can learn.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, that's a big part of my work is this

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Speaker 3: idea that we're born knowing how to love but not

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Speaker 3: how to date, and that dating is really challenging. But

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Speaker 3: the good news is it's a skill and you can

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Speaker 3: learn it. And so dating as we know it pre

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Speaker 3: apps really was invented around eighteen nineties, so this was

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Speaker 3: really when women started working outside of the house and

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Speaker 3: meeting people on their own. So before that, marriages really

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Speaker 3: came about through a matchmaker or through you know, my

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Speaker 3: dad and your dad decided that we live next door

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Speaker 3: to each other, we should combine our parcels of land,

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Speaker 3: or my dad gave your dad twelve camels for your

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Speaker 3: hand in marriage, and things like that. And so nowadays,

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Speaker 3: in the days of dating apps and really the individualistic

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Speaker 3: culture that we're in, it's a huge burden on the

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Speaker 3: person to figure out who they should be with. And

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Speaker 3: so when people feel like, you know, Logan, this is

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Speaker 3: probably weird to say, but I just wish I had

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Speaker 3: an arranged marriage. I feel like my mom or someone

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Speaker 3: else could decide better than me. I don't think that

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Speaker 3: that's crazy at all. I think the fact that we

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Speaker 3: as individuals need to make this really hard choice that's

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Speaker 3: going to have a huge impact on our overall health, happiness,

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Speaker 3: and life satisfaction is actually something that we should think about.

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Speaker 3: And for anyone who's having a hard time with dating,

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Speaker 3: I hear you. It is hard, but it's also a

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Speaker 3: skill and you can get better at it.

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Speaker 2: And one of the insights that you brought, which I

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Speaker 2: love so much, is really resonates with this show, is

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Speaker 2: that one of the kinds of things we can bring

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Speaker 2: in is all the sites from behavioral science talk about

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Speaker 2: how behavioral science can help us date better.

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Speaker 3: I feel like there's just so much great work in

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Speaker 3: two fields, the fields of relationship science, which is the

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Speaker 3: study of how we love, and the field of behavioral science,

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Speaker 3: the study of how we make decisions. And so through

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Speaker 3: my work, I really like to combine the best insights

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Speaker 3: from both of those fields and use them to help

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Speaker 3: people make better decisions in love. And so if you

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Speaker 3: actually break down getting into a relationship, it's a series

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Speaker 3: of decisions. Am I ready to date? Who should I date?

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Speaker 3: Should we become exclusive, should we move in together? Should

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Speaker 3: we get married? And if you really understand behavioral science

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Speaker 3: and the things that get in our way around making decisions,

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Speaker 3: then you can actually overcome some of the blind spots

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Speaker 3: holding you back from finding love.

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Speaker 2: And in your book you've so nicely argued that we

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Speaker 2: need to get over these blind spots if we really

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Speaker 2: want to do better when it comes to dating. And

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Speaker 2: one of the blind spots that you've brought up is

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Speaker 2: our kind of urge to relationshop. What is relationshopping and

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Speaker 2: how can we kind of deal with this challenge?

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Speaker 3: So researchers talk about this idea of relationshipping, which is

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Speaker 3: the process of getting into a romantic relationship. But in

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Speaker 3: the last decade or so, they've noticed this concept of

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Speaker 3: relation shopping, shopping for a partner as if you would

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Speaker 3: shop for a good And why that doesn't really work

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Speaker 3: is because there's this really interesting concept talking about experiential

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Speaker 3: goods versus searchable goods. So searchable goods are things like

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Speaker 3: a new camera or getting a new speaker, something like that,

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Speaker 3: where you can say what size do I want, what

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Speaker 3: price am I willing to pay? How good is the

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Speaker 3: battery life, how quickly can it be here? And you

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Speaker 3: can really break it down into its parts. Experiential goods

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Speaker 3: are things like wine or movies where you and I

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Speaker 3: might experience them completely differently, and it's not about what

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Speaker 3: they are, it's about the feelings that they bring out

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Speaker 3: in us. And so it's really important when people are

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Speaker 3: dating to understand that people are experiential goods, they're not

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Speaker 3: searchable goods. And so when people come into my dating

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Speaker 3: coaching practice and they say, Okay, I know exactly what

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Speaker 3: I want. I want a skinny five foot six Jewish redhead,

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Speaker 3: I'm like, no, you're not buying a pair of headphones.

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Speaker 3: You're searching for a life partner. And so it's much

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Speaker 3: less about those resume traits. It's much less about what

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Speaker 3: you just see if you know someone two dimensionally, and

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Speaker 3: much more about the experience of being with them and

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Speaker 3: what side of you they bring out.

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Speaker 2: And I imagine that this kind of bias can get

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Speaker 2: even more tripped up in the days of kind of

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Speaker 2: dating apps and social media. You talk about how relationshopping

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Speaker 2: can maybe get worse, or how it's even more of

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Speaker 2: a challenge that we need to pay attention to if

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Speaker 2: we're on apps like this.

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Speaker 3: So for a long time, I've noticed this idea of

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Speaker 3: people on social media really having this feeling of compare

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Speaker 3: and despair. So we all know that on Instagram people

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Speaker 3: post the highlight reels of their life. Look at my

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Speaker 3: child and her adorable Halloween costume, even though she was

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Speaker 3: shrieking before and afterwards. Or look at this amazing sunset

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Speaker 3: walk on the beach of my vacation. Meanwhile, you and

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Speaker 3: your boyfriend are about to break up. And so I

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Speaker 3: think for many people there's a feeling of I'm not

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Speaker 3: good enough. Everyone else has found love except me, and

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Speaker 3: Instagram gives them that feeling. But I've also seen something

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Speaker 3: in the last two years crop up on TikTok, which

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Speaker 3: is this idea of date entertainment. So people go on

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Speaker 3: these dates and they cannot wait to get home to say,

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Speaker 3: ladies and gentlemen, I had the worst possible date. You'll

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Speaker 3: never guess he showed up twenty minutes late. He smelled

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Speaker 3: like this. He ordered all this food, then I had

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Speaker 3: to pay for it, And so there's a feeling of

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Speaker 3: I want to go viral. One of the easiest ways

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Speaker 3: to go viral is to share a really negative story.

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Speaker 3: And so what I'm often dealing with is singles who

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Speaker 3: are so negative on dating because the content that they're

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Speaker 3: consuming on TikTok is really telling them there's no one

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Speaker 3: out there and dating sucks.

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Speaker 2: And you could so see why this is a problem, right,

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Speaker 2: because if your expectations are like, oh, this is going

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Speaker 2: to go terrible, I imagine this becomes a self fulfilling prophecy

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Speaker 2: when you actually go on a date, right, is that

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Speaker 2: you kind of change all your priors about how bad

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Speaker 2: people are, So you might the normal negativity bias we

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Speaker 2: bring to everything might be getting even worse when you're

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Speaker 2: going dates.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel like a couple things could be happening, definitely,

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Speaker 3: the negativity bias. Then there's also a lot of people

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Speaker 3: who are just not dating at all. And so this

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Speaker 3: is something that I've noticed even in the last few months,

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Speaker 3: is this idea of I've quit dating, and that's just

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Speaker 3: not a term that I really heard before this summer.

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Speaker 3: So it used to be like, oh, you know, I'm

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Speaker 3: focusing on my graduate degree or I'm moving, so I'm

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Speaker 3: gonna like be more into dating when I get there.

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Speaker 3: But now it's this binarya of I'm dating or I've

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Speaker 3: quit dating. And I think that there's something harmful about that,

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Speaker 3: where people really are having an identity as someone who's

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Speaker 3: not dating instead of I'm someone who's open to connections

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Speaker 3: even though maybe it's not their priority right now.

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Speaker 2: And so another bias that you've talked about is what

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Speaker 2: you've referred to as the Monet effect.

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Speaker 1: What's the Monee effect?

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Speaker 3: So the Monee effect is something that I named because

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Speaker 3: I love the movie Clueless. And in the movie Clueless,

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Speaker 3: who doesn't really yes, Oh it's amazing. In the movie Clueless,

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Speaker 3: there's the popular girl named Cher, and Ty, who's the

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Speaker 3: new girl, says, Hey, what do you think about our

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Speaker 3: class made Amber? And Cher says, Oh, she's a full

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Speaker 3: on Monet. It's like a painting. From far away, it's okay,

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Speaker 3: but up close it's a big old mess. And so

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Speaker 3: she's of course referring to the Impressionist painter Monet. And

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Speaker 3: what happens is that when our brains lack information, they

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Speaker 3: fill in the information in a positive way, hoping for

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Speaker 3: a great outcome. And so this actually makes people seem

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Speaker 3: more desirable than they are. So if somebody on Hinge

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Speaker 3: says I love music, then in your brain you fill in, oh,

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Speaker 3: I bet they must love the same music as me.

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Speaker 3: And this is especially a problem when people pen pal

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Speaker 3: talk to somebody on hinge for so long without meeting

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Speaker 3: up with them, because even if when they meet up

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Speaker 3: that person is fantastic, they're not going to match the

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Speaker 3: fantasy of them that they created in their head. And

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Speaker 3: so the point is to understand when you have less information,

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Speaker 3: you fill in the gaps in an overly positive way.

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Speaker 3: This creates a fantasy, and then it ultimately leads to

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Speaker 3: disappointment that could have been avoided if you just met

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Speaker 3: the person or talk to them on the phone sooner.

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Speaker 1: It's time for a quick break. But when we return,

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Speaker 1: logan will.

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Speaker 2: Help us figure out how to avoid those problematic dating types,

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Speaker 2: the romanticizer, the maximizer, or even the dreaded undatable. The

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Speaker 2: happiness lab will be right back to date. Like a scientist,

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Speaker 2: you got to start by being realistic, as that famous

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Speaker 2: Bell curve might suggest, even in love, most things tend

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Speaker 2: to be in the middle, and that means there probably

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Speaker 2: isn't just one soule me for you on a planet

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Speaker 2: of billions of people. Likewise, it's unlikely that you are

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Speaker 2: the most awkward and unlovable person in existence. Dating expert

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Speaker 2: logan Uri says a lot of people still fall for

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Speaker 2: these false ideas, so much so that she uses a

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Speaker 2: wee bit of adult language when she talks about it.

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Speaker 3: So I've categorized people into the three dating tendencies, and

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Speaker 3: if people are interested, they can take the quiz on

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Speaker 3: my website. And what they all have in common is

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Speaker 3: unrealistic expectation. So first one the romanticizer. They have unrealistic

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Speaker 3: expectations of relationships. So if you're listening and you're the

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Speaker 3: kind of person who says things like there's one person

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Speaker 3: out there for everyone, I'm single because I just haven't

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Speaker 3: met my soulmate yet, I really want the happily ever after,

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Speaker 3: well guess what you might be a romanticizer. And the

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Speaker 3: ideas behind romanticizers come from a lot of different places

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Speaker 3: in pop culture. They come from Disney movies, they come

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Speaker 3: from rom comms, they come from what we just talked

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Speaker 3: about social media and these perfect images that we project.

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Speaker 3: But the issue is with the romanticizer that they don't

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Speaker 3: understand a few things. One is that the person who

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Speaker 3: might make you happiest long term may not come in

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Speaker 3: the physical package that you're expecting, and so if you

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Speaker 3: are only expecting you know, your Prince Eric or your

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Speaker 3: Prince Charming, then you might miss out on a lot

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Speaker 3: of great potential partners. The other thing is that we

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Speaker 3: know from psychologists Renee Franniuk that people fit into either

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Speaker 3: a soulmate mindset or a work it out mindset. The

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Speaker 3: soulmate mindset is the idea that if you find the

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Speaker 3: right person, everything will work out. That's where relationship satisfaction

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Speaker 3: comes from. Instead, the work and out mindset is the

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Speaker 3: belief that relationship success derives from putting in work. And

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Speaker 3: So for the romanticizers out there who say, I don't

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Speaker 3: want to be on a dating app because that's not romantic.

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Speaker 3: I want to go to a farmer's market and reach

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Speaker 3: for the tomato the same time as my soulmate and

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Speaker 3: fall happily ever after, what I like to say to

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Speaker 3: them is that what's romantic is that you met someone

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Speaker 3: and you want to commit to them, and you're going

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Speaker 3: to build a relationship. Who cares how you met. If

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Speaker 3: you're together for fifty years, the day you met is

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Speaker 3: point zero zero five to five percent of the relationship.

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Speaker 3: And so get over that we met story and just

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Speaker 3: focus on meeting someone.

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Speaker 2: You've also argued that we need to get over what

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Speaker 2: you call the spark. In fact, I think you have

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Speaker 2: a little bit of a strong motto about this. What's

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Speaker 2: the spark and what's the big problem?

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Speaker 3: Okay, I don't know your rules over there about cursing,

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Speaker 3: so I'll just say my motto around this is this

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Speaker 3: idea of fuck the spark. And this is truly something

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Speaker 3: that when I was writing the book I felt passionate about.

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Speaker 3: Since the book has come out, it's kind of taken

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Speaker 3: on a life of its own, which I feel great about.

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Speaker 3: And fuck the spark is the idea that people will

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Speaker 3: go on a really good first date, the person will

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Speaker 3: be a great fit with them, there's a lot of

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Speaker 3: reasons why they get along. But then this person will

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Speaker 3: say to me, I'm not going to see them again. Logan,

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Speaker 3: I just didn't feel the spark. And so the spark

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Speaker 3: has become this all encompassing word that means instant chemistry, fireworks, butterflies,

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Speaker 3: and people are giving up on a lot of great

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Speaker 3: potential partners because they didn't initially feel that. But the

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Speaker 3: research shows that only eleven percent of couples say that

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Speaker 3: they fell in love at first sight, and actually a

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Speaker 3: lot of couples take time to get together. So the

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Speaker 3: first myth of the spark is that if you don't

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Speaker 3: feel it in the beginning, it's never going to grow.

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Speaker 3: That's absolutely not true. Over time, people like each other

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Speaker 3: more because of the mere exposure of fact, where when

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Speaker 3: something's more familiar, we like it more. So, yes, the

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Speaker 3: spark can grow over time. The second myth of the

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Speaker 3: spark is that if you feel it, it's necessarily a

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Speaker 3: good thing. That is also not true. I can tell

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Speaker 3: you I often meet people where I'm like, wow, did

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Speaker 3: we have a little flirty dynamic there? And then three

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Speaker 3: of my friends say the same thing about that person,

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Speaker 3: and we're like, Oh, it's not us, it's that person

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Speaker 3: in particular. They're very sparky. They give that feeling to

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Speaker 3: many people, and sometimes it can actually be a sign

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Speaker 3: of something negative. It can be a sign of somebody

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Speaker 3: avoidant who makes you feel excited because they keep pulling

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Speaker 3: away and you don't know how they feel about you,

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Speaker 3: and that actually causes anxiety that you misinterpret as butterflies.

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Speaker 3: It can also be a sign of narcissism or some

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Speaker 3: negative behavior. The third myth of the spark is that

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Speaker 3: if you have a spark in the beginning, the relationship

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Speaker 3: is viable. That's also not true. Many unhappily married or

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Speaker 3: now divorced couples once started with the spark. So it's

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Speaker 3: enough to get you into a relationship, but not enough

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Speaker 3: to keep you there. And that's really why I promote

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Speaker 3: this idea of fuck the spark, go after the slow burn.

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Speaker 3: And I feel like I married a slow burn myself.

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Speaker 3: Slow burn is someone who may not be the sparkist.

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Speaker 3: They may not be the person that shines on every

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Speaker 3: first date or is the center of attention at a party,

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Speaker 3: but they're a deeply good person. They're reliable, they would

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Speaker 3: be an incredible life partner. And so I really try

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Speaker 3: to train people to, yes, the spark is fun, enjoy it,

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Speaker 3: it's real, but don't cement your whole life and your

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Speaker 3: long term relationship about it, and really give these slow

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Speaker 3: burn people a chance.

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Speaker 2: You argue that there's a second tendency we can fall

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Speaker 2: into in that some people themselves often fall into, which

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Speaker 2: is being a maximizer.

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Speaker 1: What's a maximizer.

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Speaker 3: Yes, So the second of the three dating tendencies is

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Speaker 3: the maximizer. And living in Silicon Valley and having a

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Speaker 3: lot of clients who are in the New York area,

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Speaker 3: I feel like I coach a ton of maximizers. And

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Speaker 3: so the story with the maximizer is that they have

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Speaker 3: unrealistic expectations of their partner, and they're the kind of

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Speaker 3: person who says, I can research my way into finding

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Speaker 3: the perfect person. And so for them, if they want

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Speaker 3: to find a really good vacuum, they're going to read

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Speaker 3: fifty reviews on it and then feel like, yep, I

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Speaker 3: analyze all of this, I can find the perfect vacuum.

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Speaker 3: And then they think that they can do that with dating.

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Speaker 3: But it's impossible in dating to date every possible person.

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Speaker 3: And as we talked about with searchable versus experiential goods,

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Speaker 3: it's just not the same thing. And so maximizers really

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Speaker 3: struggle because they feel like, Okay, I've dated some great people.

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Speaker 3: Now I just want to combine the best traits of

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Speaker 3: all of them and find that person. And they always

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Speaker 3: feel like I need to keep searching because then I'll

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Speaker 3: find somebody else out there. And what ends up happening

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Speaker 3: is that a lot of maximizers keep rejecting people or

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Speaker 3: not accepting someone who might be great, and then at

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Speaker 3: a certain age they look back and they say, Wow,

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Speaker 3: I wish that I had married one of the great

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Speaker 3: people I had met before.

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Speaker 2: So what's the solution to not kind of falling prey

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Speaker 2: to maximizing. Is there another good strategy we should use?

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Speaker 3: Yes, So there's an excellent framework by the cognitive psychologist

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Speaker 3: Herbert Simon who talks about maximizers and satisficers. And so

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Speaker 3: we just talked about maximizers, but a satisficer, which is

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Speaker 3: the portmanteau of satisfy and suffice. They have standard, but

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Speaker 3: they're not overly concerned about finding something else out there.

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Speaker 3: And so when I say to satisfies to people, they

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Speaker 3: often hear a different s word, which is settle, and

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Speaker 3: they get really defensive about this loogan. Everyone else found

402
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Speaker 3: their love story. Why do you want me to settle?

403
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Speaker 3: But satisficing is not about settling. It's about having a standard,

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Speaker 3: which can be very high, and then when you meet

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Speaker 3: someone who satisfies that standard, then you say, great, I'm

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Speaker 3: going to build a relationship with them. I'm going to

407
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Speaker 3: build a life with them instead of doing what maximizers do,

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Speaker 3: which is fine, that amazing person, and then say, wow,

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Speaker 3: well if they exist, what else might exist. And what

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Speaker 3: people get wrong is that they think maximizers make better decisions,

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Speaker 3: but that's not what we've found. We found that maximizers

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Speaker 3: make good decisions and then feel bad about them. Satisfiers

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Speaker 3: also make good decisions, but then they feel good about them,

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Speaker 3: and so what's more important being right or being happy?

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Speaker 2: It also seems like this act of feeling good about

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Speaker 2: your decision means you're going to do the work all

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Speaker 2: long term relationships are going to need right where you're

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Speaker 2: kind of investing in your partner a little bit more

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Speaker 2: over time, you know, kind of working it through. If

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Speaker 2: you're a maximizer and you quickly go to like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I must have made the wrong decision because there's this

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Speaker 2: perfect person out there, so if you mess up in

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Speaker 2: this tiny way, you must not be that person. It

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Speaker 2: seems like ultimately, satisfiers are doing something that really helps

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Speaker 2: them invest in the relationship long term too.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, And I think, you know, since doing the research

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Speaker 3: for my book and learning about this, I've really tried

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Speaker 3: to become a satisfy store in a lot more aspects

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Speaker 3: of my life. So, for example, when I needed to

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Speaker 3: buy a car during the pandemic, I understood that I

431
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Speaker 3: wanted something used, I wanted a hybrid. I had a

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Speaker 3: certain price in mind, and I went to two dealerships

433
00:20:48,276 --> 00:20:50,236
Speaker 3: and when I found the car that I wanted, I

434
00:20:50,316 --> 00:20:52,596
Speaker 3: just bought it and I felt great about it. Ever since,

435
00:20:52,756 --> 00:20:55,396
Speaker 3: I think that there's a world where I had maximized

436
00:20:55,436 --> 00:20:58,276
Speaker 3: that decision and I had spent much longer researching and

437
00:20:58,356 --> 00:21:01,316
Speaker 3: either wound up with the same car or a different car,

438
00:21:01,356 --> 00:21:03,516
Speaker 3: which I felt worse about. And so I truly think

439
00:21:03,556 --> 00:21:05,516
Speaker 3: that this is a huge thing that people can do

440
00:21:05,836 --> 00:21:08,756
Speaker 3: to feel happier in their lives, is to understand that

441
00:21:09,196 --> 00:21:11,756
Speaker 3: you can set standards and satisfy them. You don't need

442
00:21:11,796 --> 00:21:14,836
Speaker 3: to always wonder what else is out there, because that's

443
00:21:14,956 --> 00:21:18,436
Speaker 3: the nagging question in your head that actually robs the

444
00:21:18,516 --> 00:21:19,676
Speaker 3: joy from your life.

445
00:21:19,796 --> 00:21:21,636
Speaker 2: And so that's the problem of being too much of

446
00:21:21,676 --> 00:21:24,396
Speaker 2: a maximizer. A final issue that you've brought up, which

447
00:21:24,396 --> 00:21:26,476
Speaker 2: actually is one that I resonated with a lot when

448
00:21:26,476 --> 00:21:28,876
Speaker 2: I think back to my old dating life. Is kind

449
00:21:28,876 --> 00:21:30,796
Speaker 2: of a belief that we have in ourselves that can

450
00:21:30,876 --> 00:21:34,476
Speaker 2: leave us astray. It's this idea that we are undatable.

451
00:21:34,756 --> 00:21:37,396
Speaker 2: And you had a really interesting incident recently with a

452
00:21:37,436 --> 00:21:40,156
Speaker 2: newsletter where you saw just how prevalent this bias was.

453
00:21:40,236 --> 00:21:40,956
Speaker 1: Tell me about it.

454
00:21:41,236 --> 00:21:44,796
Speaker 3: Yes. So the third tendency that I've identified is called

455
00:21:44,796 --> 00:21:47,876
Speaker 3: the hesitator, and this is someone who has unrealistic expectations

456
00:21:47,876 --> 00:21:50,596
Speaker 3: of themselves. So if you're listening and you're not even

457
00:21:50,676 --> 00:21:53,036
Speaker 3: dating at all, and you're single and you might want

458
00:21:53,036 --> 00:21:55,756
Speaker 3: to be in a relationship, then you are a hesitator.

459
00:21:55,916 --> 00:21:58,276
Speaker 3: And so a hesitator is someone who feels like, I'm

460
00:21:58,356 --> 00:22:00,356
Speaker 3: just not ready to be out there. I'll be ready

461
00:22:00,396 --> 00:22:03,236
Speaker 3: when I lose ten pounds, when I have a more

462
00:22:03,236 --> 00:22:05,876
Speaker 3: impressive job, when I clean up my apartment. There's always

463
00:22:05,916 --> 00:22:09,996
Speaker 3: a future state where you will be lovable, not lovable

464
00:22:10,076 --> 00:22:13,756
Speaker 3: right now. And what's so sad is that hesitators really

465
00:22:13,836 --> 00:22:17,356
Speaker 3: miss out on a few things. They underestimate the opportunity

466
00:22:17,396 --> 00:22:19,916
Speaker 3: cost of not dating, which is you don't get better

467
00:22:19,956 --> 00:22:22,076
Speaker 3: at dating and you don't figure out who you want

468
00:22:22,076 --> 00:22:22,436
Speaker 3: to be with.

469
00:22:22,676 --> 00:22:24,356
Speaker 2: And you also had an incident recently where I think

470
00:22:24,396 --> 00:22:27,156
Speaker 2: you saw how prevalent this one type of this hesitator

471
00:22:27,236 --> 00:22:27,996
Speaker 2: strategy is.

472
00:22:28,156 --> 00:22:30,636
Speaker 3: Yes. So I was working with a coaching client and

473
00:22:30,676 --> 00:22:33,796
Speaker 3: they mentioned this idea of feeling undtable. They felt like

474
00:22:33,836 --> 00:22:37,036
Speaker 3: there was something fundamentally wrong with them that meant that

475
00:22:37,076 --> 00:22:39,556
Speaker 3: they weren't lovable and that they couldn't go out there

476
00:22:39,556 --> 00:22:42,356
Speaker 3: and date because somebody would reject them. And it really

477
00:22:42,396 --> 00:22:45,196
Speaker 3: stuck with me. So I wrote to my weekly newsletter

478
00:22:45,236 --> 00:22:47,956
Speaker 3: and I said, do you feel like you're undtable? Right

479
00:22:48,036 --> 00:22:50,076
Speaker 3: back to me with some of the reasons why you

480
00:22:50,156 --> 00:22:52,556
Speaker 3: might feel this way, And out of every newsletter that

481
00:22:52,556 --> 00:22:54,876
Speaker 3: I've ever sin so over two hundred and fifty newsletters,

482
00:22:54,996 --> 00:22:58,756
Speaker 3: this one got the most responses because people just felt

483
00:22:59,036 --> 00:23:01,796
Speaker 3: so seen by it, and they wrote back and they

484
00:23:01,876 --> 00:23:04,836
Speaker 3: said things like, I'm undtable because I have an STI

485
00:23:05,156 --> 00:23:08,596
Speaker 3: I'm undtable because I've never been in a romantic relationship before,

486
00:23:09,516 --> 00:23:12,716
Speaker 3: because I've been in too many romantic relationships. I'm undatable

487
00:23:12,716 --> 00:23:16,316
Speaker 3: because I have chronic health issues. I'm undtable because I

488
00:23:16,396 --> 00:23:18,196
Speaker 3: had cancer in my twenties and I don't know how

489
00:23:18,236 --> 00:23:20,796
Speaker 3: to talk about it, and just so many emails coming

490
00:23:20,796 --> 00:23:23,116
Speaker 3: from a really deep place where people felt like there

491
00:23:23,156 --> 00:23:26,036
Speaker 3: was something fundamentally wrong with them that meant that no

492
00:23:26,076 --> 00:23:28,796
Speaker 3: one would ever love them. And then I put together

493
00:23:29,156 --> 00:23:33,916
Speaker 3: some future newsletters that talked about how actually it's our vulnerability,

494
00:23:33,996 --> 00:23:36,716
Speaker 3: it's our flaws that make us feel human and that

495
00:23:36,836 --> 00:23:39,796
Speaker 3: other people can relate to. And I told the story

496
00:23:39,796 --> 00:23:43,436
Speaker 3: of a good friend of mine who is a former alcoholic,

497
00:23:43,596 --> 00:23:45,796
Speaker 3: and he used to not date because he didn't want

498
00:23:45,796 --> 00:23:47,876
Speaker 3: to have to talk about why he was ordering juice

499
00:23:47,916 --> 00:23:50,236
Speaker 3: instead of a drink, and he was really afraid of it.

500
00:23:50,276 --> 00:23:52,276
Speaker 3: But at a certain point he just said, you know what,

501
00:23:52,356 --> 00:23:55,076
Speaker 3: I'm actually really proud of my sobriety and I'm just

502
00:23:55,156 --> 00:23:56,996
Speaker 3: going to talk about it from a place of strength.

503
00:23:57,076 --> 00:23:59,396
Speaker 3: And so he really owned his narrative of Hey, I

504
00:23:59,476 --> 00:24:02,556
Speaker 3: used to struggle with this, here's when I hit rock bottom.

505
00:24:02,756 --> 00:24:05,156
Speaker 3: Now I actually have taken control of my life. I've

506
00:24:05,196 --> 00:24:07,916
Speaker 3: been sober for seven years. And sometimes he would talk

507
00:24:07,916 --> 00:24:09,916
Speaker 3: about it on dates and girls didn't like it. But

508
00:24:09,956 --> 00:24:11,916
Speaker 3: at a certain point he talked to someone and she

509
00:24:12,116 --> 00:24:14,876
Speaker 3: was like, oh, I also have a bunch of issues.

510
00:24:14,956 --> 00:24:17,836
Speaker 3: You have baggage I have baggage. Our baggage matches and

511
00:24:17,876 --> 00:24:20,796
Speaker 3: it made her much more comfortable. And now they are

512
00:24:20,836 --> 00:24:23,876
Speaker 3: happily together. They own a house, they have a dog,

513
00:24:23,996 --> 00:24:26,556
Speaker 3: they have two kids, and it really is the story

514
00:24:26,876 --> 00:24:29,796
Speaker 3: of somebody who was willing to be vulnerable to share

515
00:24:29,836 --> 00:24:32,276
Speaker 3: the thing that they thought made them undateable, and that

516
00:24:32,396 --> 00:24:35,516
Speaker 3: actually made them easier to connect with and it led

517
00:24:35,556 --> 00:24:37,236
Speaker 3: to an amazing relationship.

518
00:24:37,276 --> 00:24:39,796
Speaker 2: It reminds me of the psychological bias known as the

519
00:24:39,796 --> 00:24:43,316
Speaker 2: beautiful mess effect, right that we think that our vulnerabilities

520
00:24:43,356 --> 00:24:45,396
Speaker 2: are going to be awkward, everybody can see them as

521
00:24:45,396 --> 00:24:48,196
Speaker 2: red flags or make us undatable, But in fact our

522
00:24:48,196 --> 00:24:50,876
Speaker 2: messes are in some sense beautiful to other people like

523
00:24:50,916 --> 00:24:52,756
Speaker 2: and it winds up in some weird way making us

524
00:24:52,796 --> 00:24:54,356
Speaker 2: more attractive rather than less.

525
00:24:54,396 --> 00:24:56,556
Speaker 3: I haven't heard that term before, but I really like

526
00:24:56,636 --> 00:24:58,876
Speaker 3: it because I feel like Brene Brown has been putting

527
00:24:58,916 --> 00:25:01,956
Speaker 3: out this message for a long time. Your vulnerability is

528
00:25:01,956 --> 00:25:04,316
Speaker 3: what attracts people to you. The thing that makes you

529
00:25:04,356 --> 00:25:07,396
Speaker 3: think you're unlovable is actually making you very lovable. Who

530
00:25:07,476 --> 00:25:08,956
Speaker 3: doesn't love a beautiful mess?

531
00:25:09,836 --> 00:25:13,356
Speaker 2: A beautiful mess can make a beautiful partner. But when

532
00:25:13,356 --> 00:25:15,476
Speaker 2: we get back from the break Logan will share her

533
00:25:15,516 --> 00:25:18,036
Speaker 2: cautionary tale of how pursuing a guy based on his

534
00:25:18,076 --> 00:25:20,796
Speaker 2: looks and vibe almost caused her to miss out on

535
00:25:20,876 --> 00:25:23,836
Speaker 2: mister Wright. The Happiness Lab will return in a moment.

536
00:25:28,596 --> 00:25:31,436
Speaker 2: Dating expert logan URI's book is called How to Not

537
00:25:31,556 --> 00:25:34,596
Speaker 2: Die Alone, and that sums up the focus of her work.

538
00:25:35,076 --> 00:25:37,556
Speaker 2: She wants us to find not just a casual hookup,

539
00:25:37,756 --> 00:25:41,036
Speaker 2: but a committed relationship. The problem is that we often

540
00:25:41,076 --> 00:25:44,116
Speaker 2: confuse a great one night stand for the perfect life partner.

541
00:25:44,596 --> 00:25:47,756
Speaker 2: It's an error that Logan herself experienced firsthand.

542
00:25:48,316 --> 00:25:51,636
Speaker 3: Okay, yes, let's talk about birdingman Bryan. And so he

543
00:25:51,716 --> 00:25:54,836
Speaker 3: really was this prom date archetype. And what is a

544
00:25:54,836 --> 00:25:57,956
Speaker 3: prom date. It's somebody who you're attracted to, somebody who's fun,

545
00:25:58,076 --> 00:25:59,956
Speaker 3: somebody who you want to dance the night with, take

546
00:25:59,996 --> 00:26:02,516
Speaker 3: pictures with, maybe you know, kiss at the end of

547
00:26:02,516 --> 00:26:05,156
Speaker 3: the night. And so he really fulfilled that for me

548
00:26:05,596 --> 00:26:08,156
Speaker 3: where I was very attracted to him. Was I thinking

549
00:26:08,156 --> 00:26:10,716
Speaker 3: about what he would be like as a life partner. No,

550
00:26:10,996 --> 00:26:13,916
Speaker 3: a life partner is the kind of person who's reliable.

551
00:26:14,076 --> 00:26:16,676
Speaker 3: You can make hard decisions with them. You know that

552
00:26:17,036 --> 00:26:19,076
Speaker 3: they will pick up your kid from the dentist and

553
00:26:19,076 --> 00:26:21,996
Speaker 3: you're nodding to get a text five minutes before saying, oh,

554
00:26:22,036 --> 00:26:24,596
Speaker 3: I totally forgot, can you do it? And So what

555
00:26:24,716 --> 00:26:27,276
Speaker 3: I found is that when you're younger and you have crushes,

556
00:26:27,356 --> 00:26:30,716
Speaker 3: it's totally fine to be interested in the prom date.

557
00:26:30,756 --> 00:26:33,236
Speaker 3: I think that for the early years of our dating history,

558
00:26:33,236 --> 00:26:36,196
Speaker 3: that's absolutely fine. But the mistake that people make is

559
00:26:36,196 --> 00:26:40,316
Speaker 3: that they don't switch to the life partner mentality soon enough.

560
00:26:40,436 --> 00:26:42,316
Speaker 3: And so that's like when I'm talking to women who

561
00:26:42,316 --> 00:26:45,196
Speaker 3: are in their early forties and they're talking about dating

562
00:26:45,236 --> 00:26:48,116
Speaker 3: a guy who lives in a basement with no windows

563
00:26:48,156 --> 00:26:50,276
Speaker 3: and isn't ready for kids yet, I'm just like, well,

564
00:26:50,316 --> 00:26:52,676
Speaker 3: you want kids, so I think you really need to

565
00:26:52,716 --> 00:26:55,436
Speaker 3: start finding somebody who shares those values.

566
00:26:55,676 --> 00:26:57,196
Speaker 2: But you found a way to shift out of that

567
00:26:57,236 --> 00:27:00,276
Speaker 2: with your current husband, Scott, my former research assistant. So,

568
00:27:00,356 --> 00:27:02,316
Speaker 2: how is Scott like a better life partner? How did

569
00:27:02,316 --> 00:27:04,156
Speaker 2: you get you away from sort of prom date model.

570
00:27:04,356 --> 00:27:06,836
Speaker 3: Yeah? So I really love the story that I have

571
00:27:06,956 --> 00:27:08,836
Speaker 3: with Scott because I feel like it's something that can

572
00:27:08,836 --> 00:27:12,276
Speaker 3: help be inspirational to other people because it's not the

573
00:27:12,356 --> 00:27:15,996
Speaker 3: traditional love story where we just met day one, love

574
00:27:16,036 --> 00:27:18,516
Speaker 3: at first sight and then have been happily ever after

575
00:27:18,716 --> 00:27:22,276
Speaker 3: ever since. So we actually first met in college many

576
00:27:22,356 --> 00:27:25,676
Speaker 3: years ago, and I just remember this because he added

577
00:27:25,676 --> 00:27:27,956
Speaker 3: me on Facebook at the time, which of course was

578
00:27:27,996 --> 00:27:30,516
Speaker 3: probably a little bit of flirtation. But I don't remember

579
00:27:30,556 --> 00:27:33,676
Speaker 3: meeting him in college after that. And then seven years later,

580
00:27:34,116 --> 00:27:37,716
Speaker 3: we were both working at Google and we had lunch

581
00:27:37,756 --> 00:27:40,276
Speaker 3: together and we kind of hit it off, but nothing

582
00:27:40,356 --> 00:27:43,236
Speaker 3: came out of it. And I even saw him on

583
00:27:43,396 --> 00:27:46,556
Speaker 3: Tinder that summer and I swiped left because I was like, ah,

584
00:27:46,636 --> 00:27:49,276
Speaker 3: he looks like a bro wearing a backwards hat. I

585
00:27:49,356 --> 00:27:52,716
Speaker 3: just wasn't interested at all. But then I wanted to

586
00:27:52,796 --> 00:27:56,516
Speaker 3: learn this statistical programming language R, which I'm sure you

587
00:27:56,596 --> 00:27:59,516
Speaker 3: and your students use all the time. And Scott had

588
00:27:59,556 --> 00:28:01,836
Speaker 3: just dropped out of a PhD program where he used

589
00:28:01,956 --> 00:28:04,596
Speaker 3: R all the time, so he started tutoring me in R.

590
00:28:04,756 --> 00:28:07,276
Speaker 3: So this was all happening while I was pursuing burning

591
00:28:07,316 --> 00:28:10,076
Speaker 3: Man Bryant, and so I just wrote Scott off. I

592
00:28:10,156 --> 00:28:12,236
Speaker 3: was like, he doesn't seem to like to travel, he's

593
00:28:12,236 --> 00:28:14,116
Speaker 3: dismissive of people who go to Bernie Man. And I

594
00:28:14,156 --> 00:28:16,636
Speaker 3: was really focused on this, you know, prom date crush

595
00:28:16,756 --> 00:28:19,476
Speaker 3: of Bernie Man Brian. But I ended up seeing a

596
00:28:19,556 --> 00:28:22,516
Speaker 3: dating coach myself, and that's something that was so critical

597
00:28:22,556 --> 00:28:24,876
Speaker 3: for me because I was just sitting there saying, why

598
00:28:24,916 --> 00:28:27,476
Speaker 3: am I repeating the same habits over and over again?

599
00:28:27,676 --> 00:28:29,716
Speaker 3: Why am I chasing these guys who don't want me?

600
00:28:29,916 --> 00:28:32,716
Speaker 3: And through that exercise, we really thought about how I

601
00:28:32,756 --> 00:28:35,316
Speaker 3: wanted my future partner to make me feel, and it

602
00:28:35,396 --> 00:28:40,156
Speaker 3: was things like appreciate it, desired, smart, funny and Bernieman

603
00:28:40,236 --> 00:28:42,076
Speaker 3: Brian didn't make me feel any of those things. He

604
00:28:42,156 --> 00:28:46,236
Speaker 3: made me feel insecure, self conscious, anxious, not good enough.

605
00:28:46,356 --> 00:28:48,476
Speaker 3: But I reflected on the fact that this guy at

606
00:28:48,516 --> 00:28:51,276
Speaker 3: work that was teaching me are did make me feel

607
00:28:51,276 --> 00:28:53,516
Speaker 3: those things, and so it was seeing things through a

608
00:28:53,556 --> 00:28:57,676
Speaker 3: new light, understanding actually how great relationships make you feel,

609
00:28:57,876 --> 00:29:00,596
Speaker 3: which was different from what I'd thought it was before.

610
00:29:00,956 --> 00:29:03,116
Speaker 3: That really helped me shift my attention to this guy

611
00:29:03,156 --> 00:29:05,436
Speaker 3: at work, kind of convince him to ask me on

612
00:29:05,476 --> 00:29:07,436
Speaker 3: a date, and then the rest is history.

613
00:29:07,676 --> 00:29:08,236
Speaker 1: Yay yay.

614
00:29:08,476 --> 00:29:10,596
Speaker 2: And that was in part because you are using relationship

615
00:29:10,676 --> 00:29:13,236
Speaker 2: science to figure out what really mattered. Right in the

616
00:29:13,276 --> 00:29:14,916
Speaker 2: case of Scott, you were kind of paying attention to

617
00:29:14,956 --> 00:29:17,116
Speaker 2: the stuff that matters more But what I want to

618
00:29:17,196 --> 00:29:19,476
Speaker 2: focus on now is like, what are some strategies that

619
00:29:19,516 --> 00:29:21,756
Speaker 2: our listeners can use if they want to start dating

620
00:29:21,796 --> 00:29:24,476
Speaker 2: in a happier, more evidence based way. Starting with this

621
00:29:24,556 --> 00:29:27,316
Speaker 2: idea that no matter how you meet the person in

622
00:29:27,356 --> 00:29:30,396
Speaker 2: the beginning, you should really get together in real life.

623
00:29:30,436 --> 00:29:31,636
Speaker 1: Why is that so important?

624
00:29:31,956 --> 00:29:33,996
Speaker 3: Yes, So we talked with this idea of pen paling

625
00:29:34,076 --> 00:29:37,156
Speaker 3: and how people spend way too long talking before they

626
00:29:37,156 --> 00:29:39,236
Speaker 3: meet up in person and they think, oh, well, I

627
00:29:39,276 --> 00:29:41,276
Speaker 3: need to find out all this information and see if

628
00:29:41,276 --> 00:29:45,236
Speaker 3: we have chemistry over text, and that's just misinformed. At Hinge,

629
00:29:45,276 --> 00:29:48,276
Speaker 3: we actually found that the sweet spot is transitioning from

630
00:29:48,556 --> 00:29:51,356
Speaker 3: the app to the date after three days, and so

631
00:29:51,476 --> 00:29:53,916
Speaker 3: really you don't need a ton of information before you

632
00:29:54,036 --> 00:29:56,316
Speaker 3: talk on the phone or do a FaceTime, and instead

633
00:29:56,316 --> 00:29:58,436
Speaker 3: it's about meeting up in person and seeing what the

634
00:29:58,516 --> 00:30:01,516
Speaker 3: chemistry is so that you avoid that monet effect of

635
00:30:01,796 --> 00:30:04,356
Speaker 3: assuming all these qualities about the person that aren't there

636
00:30:04,396 --> 00:30:06,036
Speaker 3: and then ultimately being disappointed.

637
00:30:06,316 --> 00:30:08,556
Speaker 2: And so I see why that could be really valuable.

638
00:30:08,596 --> 00:30:10,156
Speaker 2: But my guess this is that one of the reasons

639
00:30:10,156 --> 00:30:11,796
Speaker 2: people are pen paling is that like.

640
00:30:11,756 --> 00:30:14,396
Speaker 1: They're a little scared, right, there's something like friction.

641
00:30:14,236 --> 00:30:17,036
Speaker 2: About getting together in real life, and so any great

642
00:30:17,036 --> 00:30:19,716
Speaker 2: tips for that first in real life date. Maybe what

643
00:30:19,756 --> 00:30:21,876
Speaker 2: are some conversation tips that you might share.

644
00:30:22,276 --> 00:30:25,476
Speaker 3: Sure, So one of the conversation tips that I'm a

645
00:30:25,476 --> 00:30:29,156
Speaker 3: big fan of is this idea of in mediaures, which

646
00:30:29,316 --> 00:30:31,996
Speaker 3: is a Latin term that really means when you're watching

647
00:30:32,036 --> 00:30:33,996
Speaker 3: a play and it starts in the middle of the action.

648
00:30:34,436 --> 00:30:37,916
Speaker 3: And so far too often on first dates people are

649
00:30:37,956 --> 00:30:40,076
Speaker 3: just in the shallow end of the pool. They're doing

650
00:30:40,156 --> 00:30:42,876
Speaker 3: all the small talk, Oh, how did you get here,

651
00:30:42,996 --> 00:30:45,316
Speaker 3: where do you live, when did you move to the city,

652
00:30:45,516 --> 00:30:47,476
Speaker 3: what did you study in school? How many siblings you have?

653
00:30:47,556 --> 00:30:50,036
Speaker 3: Stuff that is so boring that you've probably said a

654
00:30:50,076 --> 00:30:53,316
Speaker 3: million times, and you're not really having an experience with somebody.

655
00:30:53,396 --> 00:30:55,236
Speaker 3: So I love the idea of walking into a date

656
00:30:55,276 --> 00:30:58,196
Speaker 3: and saying, I was listening to the most interesting episode

657
00:30:58,236 --> 00:31:00,796
Speaker 3: of the Happiness Lab on my way here, and you'll

658
00:31:00,836 --> 00:31:03,836
Speaker 3: never guess about this term that I learned about our

659
00:31:03,876 --> 00:31:07,436
Speaker 3: psychological immune system. And then the person's like, okay, yeah,

660
00:31:07,516 --> 00:31:10,156
Speaker 3: let's talk about that interesting thing. You can always backtrack

661
00:31:10,276 --> 00:31:13,076
Speaker 3: later and ask about school and siblings and things like that,

662
00:31:13,236 --> 00:31:16,236
Speaker 3: but just understanding that you're going to have such a

663
00:31:16,276 --> 00:31:19,716
Speaker 3: better time if you have a real conversation about real things,

664
00:31:19,916 --> 00:31:22,556
Speaker 3: and that the small talk can just lead to burnout

665
00:31:22,596 --> 00:31:24,716
Speaker 3: because you feel like you're just repeating yourself over and

666
00:31:24,756 --> 00:31:26,756
Speaker 3: over again. So that's one tip, is to start in

667
00:31:26,756 --> 00:31:29,276
Speaker 3: the middle of things. And then another mistake that I

668
00:31:29,276 --> 00:31:31,876
Speaker 3: see people making on first dates is they're so focused

669
00:31:31,876 --> 00:31:35,116
Speaker 3: on being interesting that they talk a lot about themselves.

670
00:31:35,436 --> 00:31:38,436
Speaker 3: But it's much more important to be interested, and so

671
00:31:38,716 --> 00:31:41,836
Speaker 3: often the best conversationalists are the people who really just

672
00:31:41,916 --> 00:31:45,556
Speaker 3: ask questions because they make the other person feel so interesting,

673
00:31:45,996 --> 00:31:47,916
Speaker 3: and then that person likes being around them.

674
00:31:47,956 --> 00:31:50,476
Speaker 2: You've also described one technique we can use to do

675
00:31:50,516 --> 00:31:52,396
Speaker 2: that better, what you call shift and support.

676
00:31:52,516 --> 00:31:52,996
Speaker 1: What do you mean?

677
00:31:53,196 --> 00:31:55,156
Speaker 3: So a lot of times when people are having a

678
00:31:55,156 --> 00:31:58,596
Speaker 3: conversation and they mean well, somebody mentions something like, oh,

679
00:31:58,636 --> 00:32:00,836
Speaker 3: I'm going to Lake Tahoe this summer, and then the

680
00:32:00,876 --> 00:32:03,236
Speaker 3: person wants to add on to that and they say, oh,

681
00:32:03,476 --> 00:32:06,596
Speaker 3: I've been to Lake Tahoe. Here's what happened on my trip,

682
00:32:06,636 --> 00:32:08,716
Speaker 3: And so they feel like they're contributing to the conversation,

683
00:32:08,756 --> 00:32:10,916
Speaker 3: but with they're really doing is shifting the focus back

684
00:32:10,956 --> 00:32:14,156
Speaker 3: to themselves. What actually makes people feel really good is

685
00:32:14,196 --> 00:32:16,996
Speaker 3: when you give a support response where you help them

686
00:32:17,036 --> 00:32:19,156
Speaker 3: go deeper. So you say, wow, how did you choose

687
00:32:19,196 --> 00:32:21,636
Speaker 3: like Tahoe? Have you ever been there before? What are

688
00:32:21,636 --> 00:32:23,796
Speaker 3: you most excited about it? And that's really what a

689
00:32:23,836 --> 00:32:27,116
Speaker 3: great journalist does, a great interviewer, a great conversationalist is

690
00:32:27,156 --> 00:32:30,436
Speaker 3: they're asking questions that help you go deeper into your

691
00:32:30,676 --> 00:32:33,876
Speaker 3: life experience, and that ends up making you feel really

692
00:32:34,196 --> 00:32:37,756
Speaker 3: heard and seen and important, and that helps separate a

693
00:32:37,796 --> 00:32:39,676
Speaker 3: great conversationalist from the rest.

694
00:32:39,876 --> 00:32:41,316
Speaker 2: And so that was tip number one. We need to

695
00:32:41,356 --> 00:32:43,476
Speaker 2: get together in real life. We need to go deeper

696
00:32:43,556 --> 00:32:45,756
Speaker 2: when we do get together in real life. Your tip

697
00:32:45,836 --> 00:32:47,596
Speaker 2: number two is that we need to shift our dating

698
00:32:47,636 --> 00:32:50,276
Speaker 2: mindset from the evaluative to the experiential.

699
00:32:50,676 --> 00:32:53,916
Speaker 3: So often when I either hear from my clients about

700
00:32:53,956 --> 00:32:56,556
Speaker 3: their dates, or even just being next to a couple

701
00:32:56,676 --> 00:32:59,116
Speaker 3: on a first date in a restaurant or a coffee shop,

702
00:32:59,476 --> 00:33:01,556
Speaker 3: you can just really tell that people are in this

703
00:33:01,836 --> 00:33:05,756
Speaker 3: evaluative mindset, almost as if they are interviewing somebody for

704
00:33:05,836 --> 00:33:08,116
Speaker 3: a job or they themselves are on a job interview.

705
00:33:08,196 --> 00:33:10,196
Speaker 3: So the evaluative mind set is that you have a

706
00:33:10,236 --> 00:33:13,756
Speaker 3: mental checklist in your head where you say things like

707
00:33:14,196 --> 00:33:15,836
Speaker 3: are they good enough for me? Do they have a

708
00:33:15,876 --> 00:33:18,876
Speaker 3: good enough job? Do they seem to like their family enough?

709
00:33:18,916 --> 00:33:21,236
Speaker 3: And it's almost like they're going through checking all these

710
00:33:21,276 --> 00:33:25,196
Speaker 3: boxes seeing if that person fulfills their open role, their

711
00:33:25,276 --> 00:33:28,996
Speaker 3: job description. Instead, I really want people to shift to

712
00:33:29,076 --> 00:33:32,396
Speaker 3: the experiential mindset, where you're present in the moment, where

713
00:33:32,396 --> 00:33:36,076
Speaker 3: you're really paying attention to how this person makes you feel,

714
00:33:36,196 --> 00:33:38,796
Speaker 3: what side of you they bring out, because it doesn't

715
00:33:38,836 --> 00:33:41,236
Speaker 3: really matter what the person is like on paper. There

716
00:33:41,276 --> 00:33:44,436
Speaker 3: are people out there that have the perfect resume, the

717
00:33:44,436 --> 00:33:47,356
Speaker 3: perfect biodata, but when you're with them, you don't feel

718
00:33:47,356 --> 00:33:49,596
Speaker 3: good around them. And that's something that I teach my

719
00:33:49,636 --> 00:33:51,836
Speaker 3: clients all the time is that I know you are

720
00:33:51,836 --> 00:33:54,956
Speaker 3: really excited about that girl, but when you've gone out

721
00:33:54,956 --> 00:33:57,996
Speaker 3: with her, every time, you come home feeling worse about yourself.

722
00:33:58,036 --> 00:34:00,196
Speaker 3: So who cares that she had the perfect profile? Who

723
00:34:00,236 --> 00:34:02,436
Speaker 3: cares that you always thought you would marry a lawyer?

724
00:34:02,636 --> 00:34:05,236
Speaker 3: This girl isn't it? And that actually leads to my

725
00:34:05,596 --> 00:34:07,956
Speaker 3: next tip, which is about the post state eight. So

726
00:34:08,036 --> 00:34:09,996
Speaker 3: the post eight eight is a series of questions that

727
00:34:10,036 --> 00:34:12,036
Speaker 3: I came up with for my client who is really

728
00:34:12,036 --> 00:34:14,396
Speaker 3: struggling with this where she just could not let go

729
00:34:14,836 --> 00:34:18,876
Speaker 3: of this mindset of a valuative dating. And so she

730
00:34:19,556 --> 00:34:21,636
Speaker 3: had these a questions which I can tell you, and

731
00:34:21,676 --> 00:34:24,636
Speaker 3: she would save them on her phone and on the uber.

732
00:34:24,756 --> 00:34:26,596
Speaker 3: During her walk home from the date, she had to

733
00:34:26,596 --> 00:34:30,156
Speaker 3: ask herself these questions, and the questions are things like

734
00:34:30,236 --> 00:34:32,436
Speaker 3: what side of me did they bring out? How did

735
00:34:32,436 --> 00:34:35,196
Speaker 3: my body feel during the date? Stiff, relax, or something

736
00:34:35,236 --> 00:34:38,756
Speaker 3: in between. Do I feel more energized or de energized

737
00:34:38,756 --> 00:34:41,076
Speaker 3: than I did before the date? Is there something about

738
00:34:41,076 --> 00:34:43,516
Speaker 3: them that I'm curious about? Did they make me laugh?

739
00:34:43,996 --> 00:34:47,196
Speaker 3: Did I feel heard? Did I feel attractive in their presence?

740
00:34:47,636 --> 00:34:50,796
Speaker 3: And did I feel captivated, bored or something in between?

741
00:34:51,116 --> 00:34:54,956
Speaker 3: And the research behind this is the same reason why

742
00:34:54,996 --> 00:34:59,676
Speaker 3: gratitude journals work. So we use gratitude journals because if

743
00:34:59,676 --> 00:35:00,756
Speaker 3: you know at the end of the day you have

744
00:35:00,756 --> 00:35:02,836
Speaker 3: to write down three things that you feel grateful for,

745
00:35:02,996 --> 00:35:05,796
Speaker 3: throughout the day, you're looking for those things and that's

746
00:35:05,796 --> 00:35:07,596
Speaker 3: how the post date eight works as well. If you

747
00:35:07,636 --> 00:35:10,676
Speaker 3: have to answer after the date, did they make me laugh?

748
00:35:10,716 --> 00:35:12,756
Speaker 3: Did I feel heard? You're going to pay attention to

749
00:35:12,796 --> 00:35:14,796
Speaker 3: that during the date and so this really is a

750
00:35:14,836 --> 00:35:18,716
Speaker 3: technique that my clients use to really focus on their

751
00:35:18,756 --> 00:35:21,676
Speaker 3: experience of being with the person, and that helps them

752
00:35:21,836 --> 00:35:24,956
Speaker 3: a say no faster to dates that don't make them

753
00:35:24,956 --> 00:35:28,356
Speaker 3: feel good about themselves, but also be say yes to

754
00:35:28,436 --> 00:35:31,116
Speaker 3: those slow burn people where they think, yes, it wasn't

755
00:35:31,156 --> 00:35:34,036
Speaker 3: the sparkiest person, but actually did feel really attractive in

756
00:35:34,036 --> 00:35:37,636
Speaker 3: their presence. It actually brought out a very intellectual side

757
00:35:37,636 --> 00:35:39,916
Speaker 3: of me that I love to explore, and so train

758
00:35:39,996 --> 00:35:41,796
Speaker 3: your brain to look for the stuff that matters.

759
00:35:42,356 --> 00:35:43,796
Speaker 2: And in a way, this is like part of a

760
00:35:43,836 --> 00:35:45,916
Speaker 2: broader idea, which is like we should sort of like

761
00:35:46,276 --> 00:35:48,676
Speaker 2: treat ourselves like a scientist on a date rather than

762
00:35:48,756 --> 00:35:51,476
Speaker 2: kind of like a lawyer across examiner. We're kind of

763
00:35:51,516 --> 00:35:53,476
Speaker 2: really trying to pay attention to the data as we

764
00:35:53,556 --> 00:35:53,996
Speaker 2: go through.

765
00:35:54,676 --> 00:35:57,476
Speaker 3: Yes, I've never put that thought together, but I do

766
00:35:57,636 --> 00:36:00,556
Speaker 3: often like to say date like a scientist. And the

767
00:36:00,636 --> 00:36:03,636
Speaker 3: reason why I'm so passionate about that is because what

768
00:36:03,676 --> 00:36:06,516
Speaker 3: scientists do, of course, is they have a hypothesis and

769
00:36:06,556 --> 00:36:08,796
Speaker 3: they test it and they're willing to be proven wrong.

770
00:36:09,436 --> 00:36:12,756
Speaker 3: Far too often in dating, people have a hypothesis and

771
00:36:12,796 --> 00:36:15,036
Speaker 3: they assume it's correct, and they never test it. So

772
00:36:15,156 --> 00:36:17,876
Speaker 3: I've literally worked with people who say I need someone

773
00:36:17,876 --> 00:36:20,716
Speaker 3: who has a graduate degree, but when I really talk

774
00:36:20,796 --> 00:36:23,356
Speaker 3: to them, it's more that they need somebody who's intellectually

775
00:36:23,396 --> 00:36:27,436
Speaker 3: curious versus having this specific form of an advanced degree.

776
00:36:27,476 --> 00:36:29,036
Speaker 3: So then the way to test it is, can you

777
00:36:29,076 --> 00:36:31,316
Speaker 3: go out with this guy who you know didn't even

778
00:36:31,356 --> 00:36:35,036
Speaker 3: graduate college but actually is super smart, is self taught?

779
00:36:35,196 --> 00:36:37,076
Speaker 3: Is reading a book a week? And does that give

780
00:36:37,116 --> 00:36:38,996
Speaker 3: you the same feeling? And so I do that with

781
00:36:39,036 --> 00:36:41,116
Speaker 3: people with height too, and they assume I need a

782
00:36:41,156 --> 00:36:44,156
Speaker 3: really tall person or I need someone with this background.

783
00:36:44,196 --> 00:36:45,956
Speaker 3: And so I love the idea of dating like a

784
00:36:45,996 --> 00:36:48,956
Speaker 3: scientist because it's really a way of saying, my so

785
00:36:49,156 --> 00:36:51,636
Speaker 3: called type may not be the person who makes me

786
00:36:51,716 --> 00:36:54,236
Speaker 3: happiest long term, and it's a way to figure that out.

787
00:36:54,836 --> 00:36:57,476
Speaker 2: And so tip number four is one that I really

788
00:36:57,556 --> 00:36:59,356
Speaker 2: like and resonates with other things we've talked about in

789
00:36:59,356 --> 00:37:01,836
Speaker 2: the Happiness Lab, which is that to have a better,

790
00:37:01,916 --> 00:37:04,116
Speaker 2: happier date, you need to add a bit more play.

791
00:37:04,356 --> 00:37:06,756
Speaker 1: Why is play so important for happier dates?

792
00:37:07,076 --> 00:37:09,116
Speaker 3: Yes, I love this one too, because I would say

793
00:37:09,196 --> 00:37:11,116
Speaker 3: I'm at a point in my life now being a

794
00:37:11,156 --> 00:37:13,636
Speaker 3: new mom where I am getting to play a lot more,

795
00:37:13,796 --> 00:37:16,476
Speaker 3: and I realized that it's just the highlight of my day.

796
00:37:16,476 --> 00:37:19,316
Speaker 3: It's so cheesy and cliche, but when I feel stressed,

797
00:37:19,356 --> 00:37:21,636
Speaker 3: just giving my daughter a bath and just really being

798
00:37:21,676 --> 00:37:23,916
Speaker 3: present in the moment and being silly with her, that

799
00:37:24,076 --> 00:37:26,076
Speaker 3: is so much more fun, and that is such a

800
00:37:26,116 --> 00:37:29,756
Speaker 3: break from the rest of my very work oriented daily life.

801
00:37:29,796 --> 00:37:32,156
Speaker 3: And so when people are on a date and they

802
00:37:32,156 --> 00:37:34,556
Speaker 3: can bring a sense of play, it's really a sense

803
00:37:34,596 --> 00:37:37,636
Speaker 3: of we're in a small world and we're creating something together.

804
00:37:37,796 --> 00:37:41,596
Speaker 3: We're having a novel experience. We're showing vulnerable sides of ourselves.

805
00:37:41,756 --> 00:37:44,116
Speaker 3: So if you're listening and you're somebody out there who

806
00:37:44,196 --> 00:37:47,556
Speaker 3: struggles because you come across as too serious, how can

807
00:37:47,596 --> 00:37:51,196
Speaker 3: you actually design a date that really brings out your

808
00:37:51,236 --> 00:37:53,836
Speaker 3: silly or playful side. So if you're not a good

809
00:37:53,836 --> 00:37:56,316
Speaker 3: ice skater, maybe you should be going ice skating right

810
00:37:56,356 --> 00:37:58,676
Speaker 3: now and you can fall and make fun of yourself

811
00:37:58,716 --> 00:38:01,676
Speaker 3: and it'll help emphasize that side of yourself. Or even

812
00:38:01,756 --> 00:38:04,036
Speaker 3: I had somebody who I interviewed for my book who

813
00:38:04,236 --> 00:38:07,116
Speaker 3: liked to go on dates where they ate dumplings and

814
00:38:07,156 --> 00:38:09,876
Speaker 3: they would have soy sauce, stripping from and there was

815
00:38:09,956 --> 00:38:13,076
Speaker 3: just something about taking yourself less seriously that really allowed

816
00:38:13,116 --> 00:38:16,516
Speaker 3: two people to have fun, to connect, and to really

817
00:38:16,516 --> 00:38:19,436
Speaker 3: create those novel experiences that are memorable and that we're

818
00:38:19,476 --> 00:38:20,116
Speaker 3: all seeking.

819
00:38:20,596 --> 00:38:22,596
Speaker 2: It also seems like this fits with your advice that

820
00:38:22,596 --> 00:38:24,596
Speaker 2: we heard before the break about being a little bit

821
00:38:24,596 --> 00:38:26,516
Speaker 2: more vulnerable, right if you get the soy sauce on

822
00:38:26,556 --> 00:38:29,396
Speaker 2: your face, or you're flubbing, you know, your ice skating challenge,

823
00:38:29,436 --> 00:38:31,156
Speaker 2: Like these are the kinds of things that could actually

824
00:38:31,196 --> 00:38:33,276
Speaker 2: endear people to you rather than kind of make people

825
00:38:33,436 --> 00:38:33,916
Speaker 2: question you.

826
00:38:34,316 --> 00:38:36,996
Speaker 3: Absolutely. I think that so many people out there, and

827
00:38:37,036 --> 00:38:38,836
Speaker 3: I'm sure some part of me feels this way too,

828
00:38:38,996 --> 00:38:40,996
Speaker 3: is like, the world will like me more if I

829
00:38:41,076 --> 00:38:43,876
Speaker 3: seem perfect. The world will like me more if I

830
00:38:43,956 --> 00:38:47,876
Speaker 3: weigh this certain amount that's conventionally attractive, if I always

831
00:38:47,916 --> 00:38:51,116
Speaker 3: look perfectly put together, if I have this really fancy

832
00:38:51,196 --> 00:38:53,436
Speaker 3: job title, and we just think that, oh, if we

833
00:38:53,596 --> 00:38:56,516
Speaker 3: have this sense of achievement, if we really play into

834
00:38:56,636 --> 00:39:00,676
Speaker 3: conventional levels of success, then people will like us. But actually,

835
00:39:00,796 --> 00:39:03,276
Speaker 3: what most people like is somebody who makes them feel

836
00:39:03,316 --> 00:39:06,396
Speaker 3: comfortable in their own skin, somebody who doesn't make them

837
00:39:06,396 --> 00:39:09,476
Speaker 3: feel worse in comparison, and so really, how how can

838
00:39:09,516 --> 00:39:12,436
Speaker 3: you foster that sense of this is who I am,

839
00:39:13,236 --> 00:39:17,156
Speaker 3: warts and all, and I accept myself and I'm also

840
00:39:17,196 --> 00:39:19,876
Speaker 3: willing to accept you, because at the end of the day,

841
00:39:20,116 --> 00:39:23,516
Speaker 3: what is a relationship other than deciding I accept you

842
00:39:23,836 --> 00:39:25,436
Speaker 3: for who you are, good and bad.

843
00:39:25,796 --> 00:39:28,116
Speaker 2: And that is a nice transition to tip number five,

844
00:39:28,196 --> 00:39:30,276
Speaker 2: which is that you might think you know what you want,

845
00:39:30,436 --> 00:39:32,436
Speaker 2: but the research kind of shows that you're wrong, and

846
00:39:32,476 --> 00:39:34,156
Speaker 2: therefore we might need to get a little bit better

847
00:39:34,396 --> 00:39:37,196
Speaker 2: about our permissible pet peeves. What do you mean by

848
00:39:37,196 --> 00:39:38,436
Speaker 2: permissible pet peeves?

849
00:39:38,796 --> 00:39:40,996
Speaker 3: I really started thinking about this a few years ago

850
00:39:41,076 --> 00:39:43,316
Speaker 3: when I met this woman who was like, Logan, I'm

851
00:39:43,396 --> 00:39:46,036
Speaker 3: thirty six, I'm ready to find love. I'll go out

852
00:39:46,076 --> 00:39:49,356
Speaker 3: with anyone who you recommend, unless he's a mouth breather.

853
00:39:49,956 --> 00:39:52,276
Speaker 3: And I was like, what, what is even mouth breathing?

854
00:39:52,316 --> 00:39:53,916
Speaker 3: And so I figured out what that was, but I

855
00:39:53,956 --> 00:39:56,516
Speaker 3: just couldn't believe that she had decided that this idea

856
00:39:56,556 --> 00:39:58,716
Speaker 3: of somebody who breathed through their mouth instead of their

857
00:39:58,756 --> 00:40:01,476
Speaker 3: nose was a deal breaker, a reason why she definitely

858
00:40:01,476 --> 00:40:03,636
Speaker 3: couldn't be with someone. And so that really led me

859
00:40:03,676 --> 00:40:06,636
Speaker 3: to this idea of permissible pet peeves. So yes, a

860
00:40:06,676 --> 00:40:10,116
Speaker 3: lot of us have pet peeves, something that annoys us,

861
00:40:10,196 --> 00:40:13,556
Speaker 3: perhaps more than it annoys the average person. But of

862
00:40:13,556 --> 00:40:17,396
Speaker 3: course it's not a fundamental incompatibility that means that she

863
00:40:17,436 --> 00:40:20,236
Speaker 3: shouldn't be with this person long term. So she is

864
00:40:20,316 --> 00:40:24,076
Speaker 3: confusing a permissible pet peeve for a deal breaker. And

865
00:40:24,196 --> 00:40:26,716
Speaker 3: this has actually been pretty big in pop culture in

866
00:40:26,756 --> 00:40:29,116
Speaker 3: the last year or so. People talk about this idea

867
00:40:29,156 --> 00:40:32,116
Speaker 3: of the ick. So the ick is that you are

868
00:40:32,316 --> 00:40:34,476
Speaker 3: on a date with someone, you're really into them, maybe

869
00:40:34,476 --> 00:40:37,196
Speaker 3: you're thinking about going home with them, and then all

870
00:40:37,236 --> 00:40:39,556
Speaker 3: of a sudden they go to pay for the bill

871
00:40:39,636 --> 00:40:43,156
Speaker 3: and you hear shh, and that sound is the sound

872
00:40:43,156 --> 00:40:46,676
Speaker 3: of a velcrow wallet opening up, and the person decides

873
00:40:46,716 --> 00:40:49,396
Speaker 3: that velcrow wallet in the pocket of a thirty five

874
00:40:49,436 --> 00:40:51,716
Speaker 3: year old man gives you the ick, and now you're

875
00:40:51,716 --> 00:40:53,956
Speaker 3: going to run away. And I know these stories are

876
00:40:53,996 --> 00:40:56,356
Speaker 3: funny and comedians are you know, getting a lot of

877
00:40:56,396 --> 00:40:59,076
Speaker 3: sets out of this, but it's ridiculous. Who cares if

878
00:40:59,076 --> 00:41:01,436
Speaker 3: somebody as a velcro wallet. Who cares if somebody wears

879
00:41:01,556 --> 00:41:04,076
Speaker 3: socks with sandals. There's no way that that means that

880
00:41:04,116 --> 00:41:06,436
Speaker 3: you can't be in a great long term relationship. We

881
00:41:06,516 --> 00:41:08,516
Speaker 3: just know that those things are not correlated with long

882
00:41:08,596 --> 00:41:11,316
Speaker 3: term relationship and success. So if you are somebody out

883
00:41:11,316 --> 00:41:13,276
Speaker 3: there who has a lot of things like this, and

884
00:41:13,396 --> 00:41:15,596
Speaker 3: I encourage you to make a list of all of

885
00:41:15,636 --> 00:41:18,476
Speaker 3: your quote unquote deal breakers, the reason why you can't

886
00:41:18,476 --> 00:41:20,636
Speaker 3: be with someone, and to move as many of them

887
00:41:20,636 --> 00:41:24,796
Speaker 3: as possible into the permissible pet peeves category. And so

888
00:41:24,996 --> 00:41:27,236
Speaker 3: if you have asthma and someone smokes, that's a real

889
00:41:27,276 --> 00:41:30,116
Speaker 3: deal breaker. If you are Jewish and your partner is

890
00:41:30,236 --> 00:41:32,436
Speaker 3: Christian and you both want to raise kids in your

891
00:41:32,476 --> 00:41:35,516
Speaker 3: own religion, then yes, that's probably a deal breaker. But

892
00:41:35,636 --> 00:41:39,196
Speaker 3: many of the things, including mouth breathing, are not deal breakers.

893
00:41:39,676 --> 00:41:41,676
Speaker 2: And this gets to something else you've talked about, which

894
00:41:41,676 --> 00:41:43,436
Speaker 2: is that we have to get over this idea of

895
00:41:43,476 --> 00:41:46,156
Speaker 2: finding the type right that we might just be wrong

896
00:41:46,196 --> 00:41:47,956
Speaker 2: about the kinds of things that really matter.

897
00:41:48,276 --> 00:41:50,676
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that really goes back to my idea of

898
00:41:50,876 --> 00:41:53,756
Speaker 3: date like a scientist. So so many people think I

899
00:41:53,836 --> 00:41:56,596
Speaker 3: know exactly what I want, I just need to find them.

900
00:41:56,676 --> 00:41:59,276
Speaker 3: That's a very common refrain with people that I work with.

901
00:41:59,436 --> 00:42:02,076
Speaker 3: And so the problem there is they've decided, oh, well,

902
00:42:02,116 --> 00:42:04,476
Speaker 3: I know my type and I need to find that person.

903
00:42:04,876 --> 00:42:07,356
Speaker 3: And what they don't understand is that they've actually dated

904
00:42:07,396 --> 00:42:09,956
Speaker 3: that type many times and it has worked out, and

905
00:42:09,996 --> 00:42:12,556
Speaker 3: so maybe they're so called type is not actually the

906
00:42:12,596 --> 00:42:14,716
Speaker 3: best fit for them long term. And so a lot

907
00:42:14,796 --> 00:42:17,436
Speaker 3: of the work that I did myself that I do

908
00:42:17,556 --> 00:42:20,156
Speaker 3: with my clients is helping them date like a scientist

909
00:42:20,236 --> 00:42:23,236
Speaker 3: and see what type of person does make them happiest

910
00:42:23,276 --> 00:42:25,196
Speaker 3: long term. So if you are the life of the

911
00:42:25,236 --> 00:42:28,436
Speaker 3: party person and you think you are drawn to that too, well,

912
00:42:28,476 --> 00:42:30,516
Speaker 3: guess what, it hasn't worked out for you so far.

913
00:42:30,676 --> 00:42:32,596
Speaker 3: Maybe actually need someone who's a bit more of a

914
00:42:32,636 --> 00:42:36,076
Speaker 3: homebody because they balance you out, they ground you, and

915
00:42:36,076 --> 00:42:38,756
Speaker 3: they're not competing with you for space. And so often

916
00:42:38,756 --> 00:42:40,836
Speaker 3: when people have been struggling with love for a while,

917
00:42:40,956 --> 00:42:43,516
Speaker 3: I really like to investigate their so called type and

918
00:42:43,636 --> 00:42:45,716
Speaker 3: encourage them to date like a scientist and see if

919
00:42:45,716 --> 00:42:48,556
Speaker 3: there's another type that ends up making them happier long term.

920
00:42:48,636 --> 00:42:50,316
Speaker 2: It also seems to me that people have these like

921
00:42:50,476 --> 00:42:53,556
Speaker 2: kind of ideas of deal breakers that like, when you

922
00:42:53,596 --> 00:42:56,316
Speaker 2: really kind of look at them carefully, maybe seem like shallow.

923
00:42:56,636 --> 00:42:58,396
Speaker 2: Like I know on the internet right now, there's a

924
00:42:58,396 --> 00:43:01,356
Speaker 2: lot of like no short guys kind of vibe and like,

925
00:43:01,636 --> 00:43:03,396
Speaker 2: that's just the kind of thing that you're talking about.

926
00:43:03,396 --> 00:43:04,876
Speaker 2: When it comes to this stuff that we might want

927
00:43:04,916 --> 00:43:06,356
Speaker 2: to see, is this really a deal breaker?

928
00:43:06,516 --> 00:43:08,196
Speaker 1: Might be more permissible than we think.

929
00:43:08,316 --> 00:43:10,276
Speaker 3: Yeah, so okay, going back to pet peeves, that is

930
00:43:10,316 --> 00:43:12,476
Speaker 3: one of my pet peeves is when people are way

931
00:43:12,476 --> 00:43:14,756
Speaker 3: too focused on height. And I can tell you as

932
00:43:14,756 --> 00:43:17,436
Speaker 3: someone who is married to a short king, I highly

933
00:43:17,516 --> 00:43:21,196
Speaker 3: recommend it. And what happens is that with dating apps

934
00:43:21,236 --> 00:43:24,796
Speaker 3: you can set filters, for example height, So many women,

935
00:43:24,876 --> 00:43:27,116
Speaker 3: when they're setting up their hinge profile, they just think,

936
00:43:27,156 --> 00:43:29,276
Speaker 3: oh height, Yeah, it'd be great to be married to

937
00:43:29,276 --> 00:43:31,716
Speaker 3: someone who's tall, So I'll set my height filter at

938
00:43:31,756 --> 00:43:34,476
Speaker 3: six feet or higher. But what they don't understand is

939
00:43:34,476 --> 00:43:37,796
Speaker 3: that in the United States only fourteen percent of men

940
00:43:37,956 --> 00:43:41,196
Speaker 3: are six foot or higher, and so they are automatically

941
00:43:41,236 --> 00:43:44,556
Speaker 3: filtering out eighty six percent of potential matches. Then they

942
00:43:44,556 --> 00:43:45,876
Speaker 3: meet me at a party and they hold up their

943
00:43:45,876 --> 00:43:48,716
Speaker 3: phone and they say, logan, where is he? Where's my husband?

944
00:43:48,716 --> 00:43:50,756
Speaker 3: And it's like, yeah, well he's not even showing up

945
00:43:50,796 --> 00:43:52,996
Speaker 3: because you filtered him out. So I think height is

946
00:43:52,996 --> 00:43:57,676
Speaker 3: a great example of how people make superficial initial choices,

947
00:43:57,876 --> 00:44:00,796
Speaker 3: and then they don't understand that they're actually preventing themselves

948
00:44:00,796 --> 00:44:03,876
Speaker 3: from meeting great people. Whereas if that same woman were

949
00:44:03,996 --> 00:44:06,076
Speaker 3: at a bar sitting across from a guy and had

950
00:44:06,116 --> 00:44:08,716
Speaker 3: a fantastic conversation and then he stood up and he

951
00:44:08,836 --> 00:44:10,876
Speaker 3: was fined nine, I don't think that she would be

952
00:44:10,956 --> 00:44:13,236
Speaker 3: running for the hills. I think that she would understand

953
00:44:13,276 --> 00:44:16,276
Speaker 3: that we, as we said, are experiential goods and if

954
00:44:16,276 --> 00:44:18,996
Speaker 3: that guy made her feel good, who cares what the

955
00:44:19,716 --> 00:44:21,356
Speaker 3: height is on his driver's license.

956
00:44:22,036 --> 00:44:24,796
Speaker 2: And so you've been coaching so many people with dating,

957
00:44:24,876 --> 00:44:27,036
Speaker 2: do you have those strong sense that kind of using

958
00:44:27,036 --> 00:44:29,556
Speaker 2: these behavioral science strategies really helps people.

959
00:44:29,676 --> 00:44:32,636
Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, so I think this idea of dating blind

960
00:44:32,636 --> 00:44:36,796
Speaker 3: spots is really powerful. So we all have things that

961
00:44:36,836 --> 00:44:39,556
Speaker 3: we think are holding us back, but it's possible that

962
00:44:39,596 --> 00:44:41,756
Speaker 3: the things that are actually holding us back are things

963
00:44:41,796 --> 00:44:43,956
Speaker 3: that we don't have access to at all. And so

964
00:44:43,996 --> 00:44:45,996
Speaker 3: when I first work with a client, we spend the

965
00:44:46,036 --> 00:44:49,876
Speaker 3: first session doing a audit of their relationship history, and

966
00:44:49,916 --> 00:44:52,116
Speaker 3: we really even start at middle school or high school.

967
00:44:52,156 --> 00:44:55,236
Speaker 3: So were you a late bloomer, were you a serial monogamous?

968
00:44:55,276 --> 00:44:58,396
Speaker 3: Were you a South Asian man at a majority white school.

969
00:44:58,476 --> 00:45:00,916
Speaker 3: How did all these stories really add up to how

970
00:45:00,956 --> 00:45:03,316
Speaker 3: you feel about yourself and how you've dated? And so

971
00:45:03,476 --> 00:45:06,436
Speaker 3: what I'm looking for in these conversations is patterns that

972
00:45:06,476 --> 00:45:10,596
Speaker 3: these people keep making. So, for example, somebody who ignores

973
00:45:10,916 --> 00:45:13,756
Speaker 3: red flags, why are they ignoring those red flags? What

974
00:45:13,796 --> 00:45:16,076
Speaker 3: are they getting out of those relationships that are not

975
00:45:16,156 --> 00:45:18,036
Speaker 3: a good fit? And what I really try to do

976
00:45:18,236 --> 00:45:20,076
Speaker 3: is not give them the advice that all their friends

977
00:45:20,156 --> 00:45:22,796
Speaker 3: give them, which is you're perfect. There's just nobody great

978
00:45:22,836 --> 00:45:25,196
Speaker 3: out there like Leve. Will happen to you when it happens.

979
00:45:25,196 --> 00:45:27,076
Speaker 3: And I actually like to say to them, Hey, you're

980
00:45:27,116 --> 00:45:30,876
Speaker 3: making a series of strategic errors. I can help you

981
00:45:31,036 --> 00:45:33,436
Speaker 3: identify what they are. I can give you a plan

982
00:45:33,476 --> 00:45:36,196
Speaker 3: for how to overcome them. I can give you accountability

983
00:45:36,276 --> 00:45:38,436
Speaker 3: so that you actually show up and make these changes,

984
00:45:38,476 --> 00:45:40,596
Speaker 3: and then I'm going to celebrate your successes with you.

985
00:45:42,156 --> 00:45:44,436
Speaker 2: I love that Logan is working so hard to help

986
00:45:44,516 --> 00:45:48,396
Speaker 2: us overturn our relationship myths, and that she's bringing science to.

987
00:45:48,396 --> 00:45:49,236
Speaker 1: Our search for love.

988
00:45:49,716 --> 00:45:52,316
Speaker 2: We've covered a lot of ground, so let's quickly recap

989
00:45:52,396 --> 00:45:55,516
Speaker 2: her top tips. Tip Number one, meet up in person

990
00:45:55,796 --> 00:45:57,996
Speaker 2: if you've matched with a person on an app, try

991
00:45:58,036 --> 00:45:59,556
Speaker 2: to get on a date as soon as you can,

992
00:45:59,916 --> 00:46:02,196
Speaker 2: and on that date, ditch the small talk and get

993
00:46:02,236 --> 00:46:05,116
Speaker 2: to know each other more deeply. Tip number two is

994
00:46:05,156 --> 00:46:07,836
Speaker 2: to stop confusing a first date with a job interview.

995
00:46:08,196 --> 00:46:12,156
Speaker 2: Don't rate yourspective partner's salary, career opportunities, and life goals.

996
00:46:12,596 --> 00:46:16,236
Speaker 2: Those things aren't the important metrics you think. The third

997
00:46:16,276 --> 00:46:19,316
Speaker 2: tip is what Logan calls the post day eight. Ask

998
00:46:19,356 --> 00:46:22,316
Speaker 2: yourself her eight questions about how a date made you feel.

999
00:46:22,636 --> 00:46:26,556
Speaker 2: If you're feeling relaxed and energized, that person's probably a keeper.

1000
00:46:27,076 --> 00:46:29,356
Speaker 2: Tip number four is to have fun and be goofy.

1001
00:46:29,876 --> 00:46:31,996
Speaker 2: You show off your best self when you're a little

1002
00:46:32,036 --> 00:46:35,556
Speaker 2: lighthearted and silly. And the final tip is to park

1003
00:46:35,636 --> 00:46:38,956
Speaker 2: those pet peeves. Don't write off a romantic partner just

1004
00:46:38,996 --> 00:46:41,596
Speaker 2: because they slurp their soup or laugh too loudly at

1005
00:46:41,596 --> 00:46:45,276
Speaker 2: the movies. Those are just insignificant poptholes and what could

1006
00:46:45,316 --> 00:46:49,516
Speaker 2: be a long, long road of lifetime love. As Valentine's

1007
00:46:49,596 --> 00:46:52,716
Speaker 2: Day draws closer, we'll be continuing are how to advice

1008
00:46:52,836 --> 00:46:56,316
Speaker 2: on relationships and will be joined by two psychologists who

1009
00:46:56,316 --> 00:47:00,116
Speaker 2: look for scientific clues to love In some unlikely research material,

1010
00:47:00,716 --> 00:47:02,436
Speaker 2: the plots of romcom movies.

1011
00:47:03,116 --> 00:47:03,556
Speaker 1: That's all.

1012
00:47:03,596 --> 00:47:11,836
Speaker 2: Next time on the Happiness Lab with me, Doctor Laurie Santos,