WEBVTT - The Rabbit Test

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class from how

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<v Speaker 1>Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Holly Frying and I'm Tracy d Wilson. So Tracy.

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<v Speaker 1>This weekend, I was hanging out in another city with

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<v Speaker 1>some friends. UM, and I made a joke referencing the

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<v Speaker 1>movie The Rabbit Test. Do you know that movie? I

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<v Speaker 1>know of it, but I don't think I've ever seen it.

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<v Speaker 1>I will tell you a funny story after I tell

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<v Speaker 1>you what the movie is about, because it evidences the

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<v Speaker 1>mind of a child and how they process information. So

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<v Speaker 1>in that movie, which is a comedy directed by the

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<v Speaker 1>late great Joan Rivers, Billy Crystal stars as a man

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<v Speaker 1>who gets pregnant and the title is a joke based

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<v Speaker 1>on the now outdated practice of using rabbits as part

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<v Speaker 1>of a medical test to determine if a woman was pregnant. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>this movie came out, like I said, in seventy eight.

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<v Speaker 1>So I was seven when it huh out, And I remember, Um,

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<v Speaker 1>I had said something like I don't know if I

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<v Speaker 1>had seen a poster or an ad or something, and

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<v Speaker 1>I was like rabbits, Like I was excited to see

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<v Speaker 1>this movie and my siblings, who are all a good

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<v Speaker 1>bit older than me. We're like, oh, no, that movie

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<v Speaker 1>is not for you, because of course it was about

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<v Speaker 1>sex and reproduction. But my perception as a seven year

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<v Speaker 1>old was that it must be a terrifying horror movies.

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<v Speaker 1>I didn't know until I was in my twenties and

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<v Speaker 1>it was a comedy. I was like, no, it's like

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<v Speaker 1>a scary sci fi thriller, is what I made up

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<v Speaker 1>in my head. Well, and and based on everything I

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<v Speaker 1>know of you, Holly, I was genuinely astonished when I

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<v Speaker 1>got this email from you with this outline last night,

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<v Speaker 1>because it contains a number of things that are just

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<v Speaker 1>not your bag, right, like talking about you know, pregnancy

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<v Speaker 1>and um um, and I'm going to get to the

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<v Speaker 1>animal testing things and we have a we have our

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<v Speaker 1>our our opt out discussion in a moment. But my

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<v Speaker 1>point in all of this is that I had had

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<v Speaker 1>mentioned this movie to friends, and those friends are all

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<v Speaker 1>a bit younger than my husband and I are, and

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<v Speaker 1>they had never heard of the movie, and they had

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<v Speaker 1>never heard of the use of rabbits in pregnancy testing.

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<v Speaker 1>And I was trying to explain this to them with

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<v Speaker 1>my not scientific knowledge and their eyes got really big

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<v Speaker 1>and they seemed completely incredulous and thought maybe I was

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<v Speaker 1>pulling one over on them. So, um, I was like, well,

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<v Speaker 1>I know what I want to work on next, and

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<v Speaker 1>it's this Because I thought everybody knew, they don't. Uh.

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<v Speaker 1>If you also listen to the podcast saw Bones and

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<v Speaker 1>you should, they indicated an episode on the history of

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<v Speaker 1>pregnancy testing, and it mentions the rabbit test very briefly,

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<v Speaker 1>but it's really more of a broad overview of how

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<v Speaker 1>pregnancy testing has evolved over the centuries, and we are

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<v Speaker 1>instead going to look really closely at how this particular

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<v Speaker 1>test and one very like it both were developed in

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<v Speaker 1>the twentieth century. So you may have surmised already, but

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<v Speaker 1>heads up, this episode is going to involve a significant

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<v Speaker 1>amount of discussion of animals being used in medical testing,

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<v Speaker 1>with an outcome of mortality for the animal in most cases. Um,

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<v Speaker 1>So if that is something that you would rather not

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<v Speaker 1>hear about or rather not perhaps share with younger history buffs,

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<v Speaker 1>you can tap right out of this one. Yeah. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I still have a whole layer of surprise of like, well,

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<v Speaker 1>I love science, I know you do. It just seems

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<v Speaker 1>like you know you're talking about the movie coming across

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<v Speaker 1>as a terrifying horror movie. I feel like the subject

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<v Speaker 1>is like a holly terrifying horror movie. Yeah. No, I

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<v Speaker 1>mean it's not me. It's not me having a child,

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<v Speaker 1>and it doesn't really talk about like any of the

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<v Speaker 1>actual pregnancy, just the pathology and medical testing. So I

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<v Speaker 1>think that's why it's a little easier for me to

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<v Speaker 1>dig in on. And somehow I don't know why I

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<v Speaker 1>seem to be able to handle this particular discussion of

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<v Speaker 1>animal testing. Yeah, we'll see. I could start crying halfway through.

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<v Speaker 1>We'll see how it goes. It's always different typing it

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<v Speaker 1>than it is saying it. But definitely one of those

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<v Speaker 1>subjects that is always on, like the right of first

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<v Speaker 1>refusal list what I'm thinking of things to talk about. So,

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<v Speaker 1>uh today, Home pregnancy tests they're inexpensive, very common. Usually

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<v Speaker 1>the first way people find out if they are pregnant

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<v Speaker 1>just go to the store and pick one up. But

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<v Speaker 1>there have been plenty of folk medicine tests that people

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<v Speaker 1>could try on their own over the years before they

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<v Speaker 1>were actual working pregnancy tests and for a scientific confirmation

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<v Speaker 1>of that pregnancy. Up until the seventies, you pretty much

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<v Speaker 1>had to go to the doctor. You couldn't just pick

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<v Speaker 1>up a home test. The use of urine to test

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<v Speaker 1>for pregnancy was nothing new at all. It had been

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<v Speaker 1>part of how people tested for pregnancy for centuries. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>people had intuited that there was something going on with

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<v Speaker 1>urine where uh it was a way to determine if

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<v Speaker 1>someone was in fact carrying a child, But they were

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<v Speaker 1>not necessarily rooted in science. Always they involved things like,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, peeing on grain and see if it turned color.

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<v Speaker 1>But a really major development took place in nineteen o

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<v Speaker 1>two when E. H. Starling, who was a physician, and W. M. Bayliss,

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<v Speaker 1>who was a physiologist, discovered secreton. And secreton is a

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<v Speaker 1>polypeptide that is made up of more than two dozen

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<v Speaker 1>amino acids. But what is really important is that it

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<v Speaker 1>was the first hormone ever discovered. Secreton is a digestive hormone.

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<v Speaker 1>It has nothing to do specifically with reproduction and Starling

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<v Speaker 1>didn't start using the word hormone for several years. He

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<v Speaker 1>first introduced it into medical nomenclature and a lecture that

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<v Speaker 1>he gave at London's Royal College of Physicians in nineteen

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<v Speaker 1>o five titled on the Chemical Correlation of the Functions

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<v Speaker 1>of the Body, and in that lecture, Starling defined hormones

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<v Speaker 1>as quote the chemical messengers which, speeding from cell to

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<v Speaker 1>sell along the bloodstream, may coordinate the activities and growth

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<v Speaker 1>of different parts of the body. And from the point

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<v Speaker 1>where he established the term, all manner of discovery and

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<v Speaker 1>research in the field of hormones began. Yeah, and that's

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<v Speaker 1>still the pretty basic definition that you learn of what

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<v Speaker 1>a hormone is in school. Yeah, at a very basic level.

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<v Speaker 1>So from the nineteen teens, a number of researchers were

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<v Speaker 1>examining the link between hormones and pregnancy. Through the introduction

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<v Speaker 1>of extracts of human placenta into other animals in a

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<v Speaker 1>variety of laboratory experience, it became clear that there were

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<v Speaker 1>hormones in the mix that were related to reproduction. All

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<v Speaker 1>of this sounds so obvious now, but at the time,

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<v Speaker 1>I know, I think about like the shorthand of how

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<v Speaker 1>people just attribute like people's urge to uh, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>have romantic involvement with one another, they'll just go hormones.

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<v Speaker 1>But like at the time, this was like mind blowing

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<v Speaker 1>concept that that was what was driving your romantic interest. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>And the hormone that was eventually identified in all of

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<v Speaker 1>this was human choreonic gonadotropin, which is more commonly known

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<v Speaker 1>as hCG, and that was the hormone that unlocked the

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<v Speaker 1>door to pregnancy testing. So just for a little bit

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<v Speaker 1>of clarity, but not too much, because I'm not going

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<v Speaker 1>to give you the hard science because I will miss

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<v Speaker 1>something up. But hCG is actually four independent molecules which

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<v Speaker 1>each have their own functions in which are produced by

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<v Speaker 1>separate cells. hCG is not only used as an indicator

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<v Speaker 1>of pregnancy. Certain cancers can also be detected based on

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<v Speaker 1>tests which analyze hc G content in a person's bloodstream.

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<v Speaker 1>And hCG is present in women even when they are

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<v Speaker 1>not pregnant, although it's a pretty small amount. They don't

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<v Speaker 1>produce significant amounts unless they are crying a child. But

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<v Speaker 1>pregnancy tests are designed to measure the levels of hCG

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<v Speaker 1>and once that passes a certain threshold, it is a

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<v Speaker 1>reliable indicator of pregnancy. In six two German doctors Selma

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<v Speaker 1>Asheim and Bernhard Zondeck developed a pregnancy test that used mice.

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<v Speaker 1>The preparation was described in a nine team thirty article

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<v Speaker 1>in the journal California and Western Medicine by authors Herbert M. Evans,

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<v Speaker 1>m d. And Miriam E. Simpson, m D. As follows

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<v Speaker 1>the morning urine is sent into the laboratory and clean bottles.

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<v Speaker 1>They meaning Ashaim and Zondeck recommend the addition of one

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<v Speaker 1>drop of tri cresal per twenty five cubic centimeters of

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<v Speaker 1>urine if it is necessary for the sample to be

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<v Speaker 1>sent by mail. A group of five mice each wing

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<v Speaker 1>six to eight grahams is used to test each urine specimen.

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<v Speaker 1>So the mortality rate for mice just to test a

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<v Speaker 1>single person sample was quite high at that point, but

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<v Speaker 1>per Evans and Simpson, this test was far more reliable

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<v Speaker 1>than any other options, and it produced results in as

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<v Speaker 1>few as four days. It worked because the urine sample,

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<v Speaker 1>which was injected into very young mice in a specified regiment.

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<v Speaker 1>It was multiple injections over the course of several days

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<v Speaker 1>would catalyze sexual maturation in the mice if the urine

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<v Speaker 1>was from a pregnant woman. On the fifth day, between

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<v Speaker 1>ninety six hundred hours after the start of the injection process,

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<v Speaker 1>the mice were killed and then the crop seed based

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<v Speaker 1>on an examination of the mice's ovaries, doctor could determine

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<v Speaker 1>if the woman who had given the urine sample was pregnant.

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<v Speaker 1>If the ovaries remained mostly small and smooth, the test

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<v Speaker 1>was negative, but if there was enlargement and maturation beyond

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<v Speaker 1>the normal development, it was positive. Ash I'man's on Deck

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<v Speaker 1>also developed a variation on this test for cases where

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<v Speaker 1>someone might more urgently need to know if they were pregnant.

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<v Speaker 1>Although it came at a cost of more mice, They

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<v Speaker 1>used more mice in the experiment and then that they

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<v Speaker 1>dissected them earlier in the range past when they had

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<v Speaker 1>begun the testing. That larger sample set made up for

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<v Speaker 1>the shorter testing period. We are about to talk about

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<v Speaker 1>a little variation on the method that they developed, but

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<v Speaker 1>first we'll pause and have a quick word from one

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<v Speaker 1>of the sponsors that keeps the show going. Other doctors

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<v Speaker 1>took the work of the German team and the Asheim

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<v Speaker 1>Zondeck test, which was often abbreviated to just called be

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<v Speaker 1>called the AZ test, and they made slight tweaks to

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<v Speaker 1>the method for what worked best for their laboratory situation

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<v Speaker 1>and their staff at the University of California at Berkeley

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<v Speaker 1>in the late nineteen twenties, researchers opted to use six

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<v Speaker 1>rats for the procedure rather than mice, and they stored

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<v Speaker 1>the urine samples at freezing temperature before injection. They of

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<v Speaker 1>course heated it back up so that the animals were

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<v Speaker 1>not going to shock after the injection. Using rats was

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<v Speaker 1>actually more cost intensive than mice, but you see, Berkeley

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<v Speaker 1>had already had an established rat colony for use in

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<v Speaker 1>their laps. The primary benefit and using rats instead of

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<v Speaker 1>mice was the fact that all of the rats usually

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<v Speaker 1>survived the test at least the injection and sort of

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<v Speaker 1>incubation portion of the test, but in mouse based testing,

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<v Speaker 1>fift of the rodents died before they reached that day

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<v Speaker 1>five exam a nation stage, and both tests the error

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<v Speaker 1>rate was quite small, between one and two percent, and

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<v Speaker 1>according to data collected in Ashiman Zondex lab, this test

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<v Speaker 1>was also quite good at early detection. There were recorded

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<v Speaker 1>instances of positive results before any other clinical signs of

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<v Speaker 1>pregnancy were present, for example, just three to four days

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<v Speaker 1>after the patient had missed a menstrual period. Results were

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<v Speaker 1>most reliable though in cases of normal pregnancy, so in

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<v Speaker 1>instances of more problematic situations like a tubal pregnancy. The

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<v Speaker 1>results were, according to the German doctor's data, slightly less accurate.

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<v Speaker 1>This was at a time in medical science when diagnostic

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<v Speaker 1>tests weren't always common practice in Western medicine, and they

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<v Speaker 1>certainly weren't common specifically for women. Additionally, a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>doctors felt as though it was extraneous. They trusted their

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<v Speaker 1>experience and diagnostic abilities to determine if someone was pregnant

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<v Speaker 1>or not. There was concerned that testing labs removed for

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<v Speaker 1>the relationship and the trust between the doctor and the patient. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>this was particularly a problem UM in Great Britain. I

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<v Speaker 1>was reading one article that UM mentioned that this one

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<v Speaker 1>particular lab in Edinburgh had started taking mail in samples

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<v Speaker 1>and people were like, but they're bypassing their doctors just

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<v Speaker 1>to do a direct thing. Um. There were a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of a lot of concerns. And this is at a

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<v Speaker 1>point where there was insurance in Great Britain, but it

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<v Speaker 1>didn't always cover women, and it certainly didn't cover them

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<v Speaker 1>just wanting to find out if they were pregnant. That

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<v Speaker 1>was usually only for like an emergency, which we'll talk about. Additionally,

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<v Speaker 1>most of the time most women suspected they were pregnant

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<v Speaker 1>already and they went to their doctor just to confirm

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<v Speaker 1>what they already thought. And family practitioners used this as

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<v Speaker 1>evidence that there was not a real need for such

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<v Speaker 1>tests to become mainstream. In most cases, unless there was

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<v Speaker 1>an urgent medical dean to know if a woman was pregnant.

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<v Speaker 1>Health organizations and insurance companies where they existed, because insurance

0:12:55.880 --> 0:13:00.199
<v Speaker 1>didn't really start until the late nineteen twenties, were unlikely

0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:03.559
<v Speaker 1>to approve coverage for the cost of the test. Testing

0:13:03.600 --> 0:13:07.000
<v Speaker 1>samples sent through the mail was particularly looked down upon

0:13:07.160 --> 0:13:09.640
<v Speaker 1>us we just sort of alluded to. It was referred

0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:14.360
<v Speaker 1>to as postal pathology. That's a a criticism that still

0:13:14.360 --> 0:13:16.240
<v Speaker 1>exists today with all the various things that you can

0:13:16.240 --> 0:13:19.280
<v Speaker 1>test at home and kind of mail away. But this

0:13:19.360 --> 0:13:22.040
<v Speaker 1>test was recognized for its efficacy and it became more

0:13:22.040 --> 0:13:26.160
<v Speaker 1>and more commonly administered. Both Selmer Asheim and Bernard Zondeck

0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:29.079
<v Speaker 1>were Jewish, and both of them chose to leave Germany.

0:13:29.080 --> 0:13:31.160
<v Speaker 1>I say chose, but they really had to for their

0:13:31.160 --> 0:13:34.640
<v Speaker 1>lives in nineteen thirty three as the Nazi Party came

0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:37.640
<v Speaker 1>into power, and they left their lab behind in the process.

0:13:38.360 --> 0:13:41.920
<v Speaker 1>In thirty one, the landscape for pregnancy testing shifted when

0:13:41.920 --> 0:13:44.840
<v Speaker 1>a similar test to the A Z test was introduced

0:13:44.880 --> 0:13:48.320
<v Speaker 1>at the University of Pennsylvania by Maurice Harold Friedman and

0:13:48.400 --> 0:13:54.000
<v Speaker 1>Maxwell Edward Lapham. Freedman, who was born on October three

0:13:54.000 --> 0:13:57.240
<v Speaker 1>and Gary, Indiana, had been with the University of Pennsylvania

0:13:57.280 --> 0:14:00.959
<v Speaker 1>as a faculty member since he had earned his bachelor's

0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:04.000
<v Speaker 1>degree PhD and m d at the University of Chicago

0:14:04.080 --> 0:14:06.840
<v Speaker 1>starting in nineteen nine, so he went into his undergrad

0:14:06.880 --> 0:14:09.800
<v Speaker 1>at just sixteen, so he was still quite young when

0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:13.079
<v Speaker 1>he developed the rabbit test, and Maxwell E. Lapham, who

0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:15.640
<v Speaker 1>was born in newfe New York, was just three years

0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:18.040
<v Speaker 1>older than his collaborator, and he was working at the

0:14:18.120 --> 0:14:21.720
<v Speaker 1>university hospital at the time. And an article titled a

0:14:21.800 --> 0:14:26.160
<v Speaker 1>Simple Rapid Procedure for the Laboratory Diagnosis of Early Pregnancies

0:14:26.200 --> 0:14:30.359
<v Speaker 1>in the March issue of the American Journal of Obstetrics

0:14:30.400 --> 0:14:34.040
<v Speaker 1>and Gynecology, Friedman and Lapham wrote about their choice to

0:14:34.080 --> 0:14:36.800
<v Speaker 1>move away from mice for their test, starting with a

0:14:36.840 --> 0:14:39.840
<v Speaker 1>reference to the as test, It said quote Yet this

0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:43.960
<v Speaker 1>test admirable, though it is has some distinct disadvantages, one

0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:46.800
<v Speaker 1>of which may make it impractical in a laboratory or

0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:51.080
<v Speaker 1>hospital not closely affiliated with some university or institute. To

0:14:51.280 --> 0:14:55.040
<v Speaker 1>perform the zondek Asheim test, it's essential to be in

0:14:55.360 --> 0:14:58.160
<v Speaker 1>in a position to command a ready supply of amateur

0:14:58.240 --> 0:15:02.480
<v Speaker 1>mice weighing from sixt grahams. If a large breeding colony

0:15:02.520 --> 0:15:05.480
<v Speaker 1>of mice is not easily available, some difficulty might be

0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:08.880
<v Speaker 1>encountered in procuring suitable animals at a time as test

0:15:08.920 --> 0:15:13.400
<v Speaker 1>as desired. Moreover, even if one had at hand enough

0:15:13.400 --> 0:15:16.560
<v Speaker 1>of the immature mice to answer the calculated requirements for

0:15:16.600 --> 0:15:18.840
<v Speaker 1>a given week, and for some reason or other the

0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:23.560
<v Speaker 1>number of samples submitted fell below expectations, the unused animals

0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:26.960
<v Speaker 1>would soon mature beyond their usefulness, so that another group

0:15:27.000 --> 0:15:29.960
<v Speaker 1>of the immature animals would have to be gotten. Freedman

0:15:30.040 --> 0:15:33.320
<v Speaker 1>and Lapham's test used rabbits instead of mice, and just

0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:35.840
<v Speaker 1>as rats were more of a burden to support than mice,

0:15:36.440 --> 0:15:39.280
<v Speaker 1>rabbits took a lot more effort and resources to keep

0:15:39.280 --> 0:15:42.760
<v Speaker 1>in a lab setting. But there were some very significant

0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:46.440
<v Speaker 1>benefits to rabbits over mice. For one, it required only

0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:50.400
<v Speaker 1>one to two specimens rather than six. Aside from just

0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:53.440
<v Speaker 1>the number of creatures harmed. This also just meant one

0:15:53.520 --> 0:15:57.480
<v Speaker 1>or two necropsies rather than half a dozen, and unlike mice,

0:15:57.680 --> 0:16:01.120
<v Speaker 1>rabbits only ovulate after mating. That meant they didn't need

0:16:01.200 --> 0:16:04.680
<v Speaker 1>to use only very young animals. With mice, the very

0:16:04.680 --> 0:16:07.680
<v Speaker 1>young specimens were used to avoid any confusion that might

0:16:07.720 --> 0:16:11.640
<v Speaker 1>arise should Amounse just be developing a natural estrous cycle,

0:16:11.680 --> 0:16:14.120
<v Speaker 1>which would look pretty similar to a positive result in

0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:17.360
<v Speaker 1>the testing. As long as they knew the rabbit's history

0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:21.280
<v Speaker 1>and it had been isolated because exposure to other female

0:16:21.360 --> 0:16:24.440
<v Speaker 1>rabbits could cause estrus, it could stay viable as a

0:16:24.440 --> 0:16:27.720
<v Speaker 1>test subject until it was needed, instead of aging out

0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:31.280
<v Speaker 1>of usefulness for testing purposes. But even if a rabbit

0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:34.680
<v Speaker 1>had not been fully isolated, it could still potentially be

0:16:34.840 --> 0:16:38.920
<v Speaker 1>used per Friedman and Lapham quote. In case one has

0:16:38.920 --> 0:16:42.240
<v Speaker 1>not had opportunity to isolate the rabbits for the desired period,

0:16:42.800 --> 0:16:45.640
<v Speaker 1>and it is found necessary to perform a test, it

0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:48.200
<v Speaker 1>is safe to use a rabbit that has been isolated

0:16:48.240 --> 0:16:52.000
<v Speaker 1>in the laboratory for only eight or ten days, even

0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:54.760
<v Speaker 1>if the rabbit in question had had coitus just before

0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:58.320
<v Speaker 1>it was obtained. The corporal lutilla of pregnancy or pseudo

0:16:58.320 --> 0:17:01.640
<v Speaker 1>pregnancy would then be least eight or ten days old

0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:04.479
<v Speaker 1>and could not be confused with the fresh corporate lutia

0:17:04.640 --> 0:17:09.560
<v Speaker 1>or corporal hemorrhagica produced by the injections of an active urine. Briefly,

0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:12.399
<v Speaker 1>then one may safely use all rabbits that are not

0:17:12.480 --> 0:17:15.760
<v Speaker 1>demonstrably pregnant at the end of three weeks of isolation.

0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:19.359
<v Speaker 1>Pathologists also found the rabbits easier to handle, and it

0:17:19.400 --> 0:17:23.120
<v Speaker 1>was easier to administer injections into the veins of their ears.

0:17:23.160 --> 0:17:26.000
<v Speaker 1>They could perform the necropsy without the need for a

0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:30.040
<v Speaker 1>microscope or a magnifying glass because the results were observable

0:17:30.080 --> 0:17:33.000
<v Speaker 1>to the naked eye rather than needing to be magnified. Yeah,

0:17:33.040 --> 0:17:34.560
<v Speaker 1>that was not the case with mice or you had

0:17:34.600 --> 0:17:37.800
<v Speaker 1>to look very closely at their tiny, tiny organs. You

0:17:37.800 --> 0:17:40.399
<v Speaker 1>could literally just do the necropcy and go yep, this

0:17:40.480 --> 0:17:44.159
<v Speaker 1>one is positive. But the big, big difference was that

0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:46.880
<v Speaker 1>a rabbit test could be turned around in forty eight

0:17:46.880 --> 0:17:50.560
<v Speaker 1>hours rather than five days. While Lapham and Friedman tried

0:17:50.600 --> 0:17:53.360
<v Speaker 1>a similar method of earlier necropsy that had been used

0:17:53.359 --> 0:17:55.520
<v Speaker 1>in mice, as you remember, they had just up the

0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:59.400
<v Speaker 1>number of mice used and then did a test doing

0:17:59.440 --> 0:18:02.840
<v Speaker 1>sort of pattern recognition at a shorter interval. They actually

0:18:02.880 --> 0:18:05.920
<v Speaker 1>found the results a lot less reliable when they try

0:18:05.960 --> 0:18:08.760
<v Speaker 1>a similar method in rabbits. We're about to get into

0:18:08.760 --> 0:18:11.879
<v Speaker 1>the numbers involved in the research that Freedman and Lapham

0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:14.440
<v Speaker 1>used to test their rabbit method, but first we will

0:18:14.480 --> 0:18:25.080
<v Speaker 1>take a quick sponsor break. To test their approach, the

0:18:25.200 --> 0:18:28.840
<v Speaker 1>University of Pennsylvania team used a hundred and eleven samples.

0:18:29.520 --> 0:18:32.679
<v Speaker 1>Three samples were deemed too toxic to use in the test,

0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:36.200
<v Speaker 1>and the specific nature of the toxicity is not described

0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:38.920
<v Speaker 1>in the Freedman and lap of paper, but a lab

0:18:38.920 --> 0:18:41.480
<v Speaker 1>in Edinburgh, Scotland, which did quite a lot of pregnancy

0:18:41.520 --> 0:18:45.800
<v Speaker 1>testing in the nineteen thirties, described sometimes getting samples of

0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:49.200
<v Speaker 1>urine which were green because the women who had given

0:18:49.240 --> 0:18:51.680
<v Speaker 1>them had used some sort of chemical means to try

0:18:51.680 --> 0:18:55.080
<v Speaker 1>to avoid pregnancy. Those samples were lethal to mice, which

0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:57.600
<v Speaker 1>was the testing animal that the Edinburgh lab used, so

0:18:57.640 --> 0:19:01.080
<v Speaker 1>the test would not work. Freedman and Lapa mentioned as

0:19:01.280 --> 0:19:04.040
<v Speaker 1>a desire to find a way to handle so called

0:19:04.119 --> 0:19:07.560
<v Speaker 1>toxic samples. Writing quote zon Deck reports that about six

0:19:07.640 --> 0:19:10.760
<v Speaker 1>percent of the samples submitted were too toxic. To be handled,

0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:13.919
<v Speaker 1>and to obviate this difficulty, he has devised a method

0:19:13.920 --> 0:19:17.840
<v Speaker 1>by which these toxic urines may be made innocuous. Since

0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:20.359
<v Speaker 1>the appearance of this paper, we have not encountered a

0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:23.920
<v Speaker 1>sample with which to test this procedure, so that left

0:19:23.920 --> 0:19:27.560
<v Speaker 1>a hundred and eight samples for the study, and twenty

0:19:27.560 --> 0:19:29.520
<v Speaker 1>five of those samples were from women who were in

0:19:29.560 --> 0:19:32.480
<v Speaker 1>their last months of gestation, and all of their samples,

0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:36.600
<v Speaker 1>as expected, yielded positive test results. Thirty two of the

0:19:36.640 --> 0:19:38.840
<v Speaker 1>samples were from women who had gone to the clinic

0:19:38.880 --> 0:19:41.760
<v Speaker 1>at the university hospital to determine if they were pregnant.

0:19:42.240 --> 0:19:45.399
<v Speaker 1>Twenty five of them tested positive for pregnancy, and the

0:19:45.440 --> 0:19:47.800
<v Speaker 1>research team was able to track twenty two of those

0:19:47.800 --> 0:19:50.960
<v Speaker 1>women to further verify that they had been pregnant, although

0:19:51.000 --> 0:19:54.119
<v Speaker 1>not all of them carried those pregnancies to full term.

0:19:54.200 --> 0:19:57.400
<v Speaker 1>The remaining three did not remain in contact with the study.

0:19:57.760 --> 0:20:00.760
<v Speaker 1>There were fifty one negative test results from this viable

0:20:00.800 --> 0:20:04.080
<v Speaker 1>group of a hundred eight samples. Two of those samples

0:20:04.080 --> 0:20:07.800
<v Speaker 1>were from men and were from women in the hospital

0:20:07.840 --> 0:20:10.199
<v Speaker 1>who were known to have been not pregnant at the

0:20:10.200 --> 0:20:13.800
<v Speaker 1>time of testing, including several with conditions that might clinically

0:20:13.920 --> 0:20:17.120
<v Speaker 1>present as looking pregnant without a test, like they had

0:20:17.240 --> 0:20:21.480
<v Speaker 1>nausea or their abdomens were swollen, something like that. Yes,

0:20:21.520 --> 0:20:24.040
<v Speaker 1>so they wanted to include people that they absolutely knew

0:20:24.080 --> 0:20:27.120
<v Speaker 1>were not pregnant to prove that the tests was accurate

0:20:27.160 --> 0:20:30.320
<v Speaker 1>in both positive and negative and also people who might

0:20:30.359 --> 0:20:33.879
<v Speaker 1>be told by a doctor who was just examining them

0:20:34.119 --> 0:20:36.439
<v Speaker 1>that they were probably pregnant but were in fact not.

0:20:36.920 --> 0:20:39.680
<v Speaker 1>Twenty four of the negative test results had been for

0:20:39.800 --> 0:20:42.080
<v Speaker 1>women who had visited the clinic to determine if they

0:20:42.080 --> 0:20:45.280
<v Speaker 1>were pregnant, and the study remained in contact with eighteen

0:20:45.320 --> 0:20:48.360
<v Speaker 1>of those patients and they were verified as non pregnant.

0:20:48.720 --> 0:20:51.320
<v Speaker 1>That left ninety two cases for which the doctors felt

0:20:51.320 --> 0:20:54.000
<v Speaker 1>they had adequate data for the inclusion in the study

0:20:54.040 --> 0:20:57.440
<v Speaker 1>statistical analysis, and that left them with an error rate

0:20:57.520 --> 0:21:01.160
<v Speaker 1>of zero. But in their paper Forman and Lapham wrote,

0:21:01.240 --> 0:21:03.679
<v Speaker 1>it is likely that if we had more material, we

0:21:03.760 --> 0:21:07.440
<v Speaker 1>might have encountered an error or two. Yeah, they were

0:21:07.480 --> 0:21:09.600
<v Speaker 1>not asserting that it was a percent effect of all

0:21:09.600 --> 0:21:12.479
<v Speaker 1>the time, um, but of the ninety two that had

0:21:12.520 --> 0:21:15.560
<v Speaker 1>been that it had been paired down to after they

0:21:15.720 --> 0:21:19.159
<v Speaker 1>uh had to leave out the toxic urine samples and

0:21:19.240 --> 0:21:22.520
<v Speaker 1>the ones that they lost track of it was accurate

0:21:22.680 --> 0:21:26.239
<v Speaker 1>in that data. The Freedman Lapham test was adopted more

0:21:26.320 --> 0:21:29.359
<v Speaker 1>readily than its predecessor, the mouse version, in part because

0:21:29.359 --> 0:21:32.120
<v Speaker 1>the asy test had blazed a trail already, so people

0:21:32.160 --> 0:21:35.280
<v Speaker 1>already had this idea that this test was worthwhile and

0:21:36.680 --> 0:21:40.320
<v Speaker 1>was accurate, and also for all of the reasons that

0:21:40.359 --> 0:21:43.080
<v Speaker 1>were laid out in the paper published by Freedman and Lapham.

0:21:43.160 --> 0:21:46.159
<v Speaker 1>For example, hospitals found it much easier to set up

0:21:46.160 --> 0:21:49.000
<v Speaker 1>a lab for a smaller number of rabbits than huge

0:21:49.080 --> 0:21:51.560
<v Speaker 1>numbers of mice, which they would have to continually be

0:21:51.640 --> 0:21:55.160
<v Speaker 1>breeding to get workable um animals that they could use

0:21:55.160 --> 0:21:58.359
<v Speaker 1>in testing, even though it was still more expensive to

0:21:58.520 --> 0:22:02.040
<v Speaker 1>house a rabbit, and the reliability and the speedier assessment

0:22:02.080 --> 0:22:05.399
<v Speaker 1>during necropsy made this test much more appealing as well.

0:22:05.880 --> 0:22:08.199
<v Speaker 1>And as a bit of myth busting, you may have

0:22:08.320 --> 0:22:11.040
<v Speaker 1>heard the joke the rabbit died as a shorthand way

0:22:11.080 --> 0:22:13.200
<v Speaker 1>to say that somebody is pregnant, and this has been

0:22:13.200 --> 0:22:18.000
<v Speaker 1>a long a longstanding misconception connected to this test. I

0:22:18.040 --> 0:22:20.800
<v Speaker 1>think both Holly and I at some point have probably

0:22:20.840 --> 0:22:23.439
<v Speaker 1>said that I know I have repeated that myth, So

0:22:23.520 --> 0:22:25.800
<v Speaker 1>apologies to anyone that heard that from my lips. You

0:22:25.920 --> 0:22:30.800
<v Speaker 1>got misinformation. Yeah, the positive test result was not indicated

0:22:30.800 --> 0:22:34.400
<v Speaker 1>by the rabbit dying. The rabbits had to be euthanized

0:22:34.480 --> 0:22:38.400
<v Speaker 1>and necrop seed. The positive test result was definitely not

0:22:38.600 --> 0:22:42.560
<v Speaker 1>the cause of the death. Correct. And while the rabbit

0:22:42.600 --> 0:22:45.679
<v Speaker 1>test was more popular than the mouse test that preceded it,

0:22:46.160 --> 0:22:48.880
<v Speaker 1>there was another way to test for pregnancy that followed

0:22:49.000 --> 0:22:51.159
<v Speaker 1>in the nineteen thirties, so not very long after the

0:22:51.240 --> 0:22:54.800
<v Speaker 1>rabbit test was introduced, called the frog test, and this

0:22:54.840 --> 0:22:59.000
<v Speaker 1>one introduced into Western medicine by British biologist Lancelot hogban

0:22:59.400 --> 0:23:03.760
<v Speaker 1>didn't kill the test animal, Xenopus levis. Frogs used in

0:23:03.760 --> 0:23:07.520
<v Speaker 1>this test would begin ovulating and dropping eggs quite quickly

0:23:07.640 --> 0:23:11.119
<v Speaker 1>after being injected with urine that contained hCG in the

0:23:11.200 --> 0:23:14.679
<v Speaker 1>levels consistent with pregnancy. You will also sometimes hear this

0:23:14.760 --> 0:23:18.240
<v Speaker 1>referred to as the Buffo test. That species was originally

0:23:18.320 --> 0:23:22.040
<v Speaker 1>named Buffo levis before the name changed to Xenopus. So

0:23:22.080 --> 0:23:25.600
<v Speaker 1>these frogs displayed their results in mere hours compared to

0:23:25.600 --> 0:23:28.120
<v Speaker 1>the days that it took with previous methods of mice

0:23:28.160 --> 0:23:30.919
<v Speaker 1>and rabbits, and the same frog could be used for

0:23:31.000 --> 0:23:34.919
<v Speaker 1>repeated testing since there wasn't a necropsy needed to confirm

0:23:35.000 --> 0:23:38.200
<v Speaker 1>these results. Yeah, this is also one of those things

0:23:38.720 --> 0:23:42.120
<v Speaker 1>that has possibly led to some species integration in places

0:23:42.160 --> 0:23:46.119
<v Speaker 1>it is not natural for it to exist, because it appears,

0:23:46.359 --> 0:23:48.520
<v Speaker 1>at least based on what I read, that this really

0:23:48.560 --> 0:23:51.560
<v Speaker 1>caused no harm to the frogs whatsoever. And so these

0:23:51.600 --> 0:23:53.640
<v Speaker 1>labs would end up with lots and lots of frogs

0:23:53.920 --> 0:23:56.760
<v Speaker 1>and eventually they would start letting some go. So they

0:23:56.760 --> 0:24:00.480
<v Speaker 1>had originated in South Africa and then ended up up

0:24:00.600 --> 0:24:05.359
<v Speaker 1>being let loose outside of labs throughout the Western world.

0:24:06.080 --> 0:24:09.879
<v Speaker 1>We've done, uh like invasive species have come up on

0:24:09.920 --> 0:24:12.160
<v Speaker 1>the show before, but I don't think I have ever

0:24:12.240 --> 0:24:17.840
<v Speaker 1>heard of invasive pregnancy test frogs and the invasive frogs

0:24:17.840 --> 0:24:20.880
<v Speaker 1>that have have gone on to retire from being pregnancy

0:24:20.920 --> 0:24:23.560
<v Speaker 1>tests ers. They also eventually realized that they could use

0:24:23.600 --> 0:24:26.320
<v Speaker 1>male frogs as well, and they would basically release sperm,

0:24:26.400 --> 0:24:29.200
<v Speaker 1>and they actually had a much faster test result than

0:24:29.240 --> 0:24:33.720
<v Speaker 1>the female frogs, So both both males and females of

0:24:33.760 --> 0:24:36.880
<v Speaker 1>the species ended up being used. But hogg Ban did

0:24:36.920 --> 0:24:39.719
<v Speaker 1>not get to retain a clear claim to this discovery.

0:24:40.400 --> 0:24:44.119
<v Speaker 1>While he had apparently suggested that these frogs could be

0:24:44.240 --> 0:24:47.320
<v Speaker 1>used to detect certain hormones and pregnant women. He didn't

0:24:47.359 --> 0:24:49.560
<v Speaker 1>really land at the idea that the frogs could be

0:24:49.640 --> 0:24:51.760
<v Speaker 1>used to design a pregnancy test, and he did not

0:24:51.880 --> 0:24:54.520
<v Speaker 1>set up any of the testing around it. It was

0:24:54.560 --> 0:24:58.560
<v Speaker 1>Hogben's student Hill L. Shapiro and Shapiro's research partner, Harry's

0:24:58.560 --> 0:25:02.520
<v Speaker 1>Warrenstein who act took the idea from theoretical to practical

0:25:02.920 --> 0:25:06.600
<v Speaker 1>by designing executing studies with the frogs. Of course, the

0:25:06.600 --> 0:25:09.399
<v Speaker 1>frog test caught on because if its benefits over the

0:25:09.440 --> 0:25:12.280
<v Speaker 1>other options, and it was used until the nineteen sixties,

0:25:12.280 --> 0:25:15.440
<v Speaker 1>when pregnancy tests were developed that didn't involve the use

0:25:15.440 --> 0:25:19.800
<v Speaker 1>of animals at all. After that, home kits eventually hit

0:25:19.840 --> 0:25:22.160
<v Speaker 1>the market in the nineteen seventies, the first of which

0:25:22.200 --> 0:25:25.639
<v Speaker 1>was called Predictor and which took two hours to offer

0:25:26.119 --> 0:25:30.080
<v Speaker 1>a result. These were a lot more convoluted than today's

0:25:30.160 --> 0:25:32.840
<v Speaker 1>where you just pe honest stick. If you have watched

0:25:32.920 --> 0:25:37.560
<v Speaker 1>the Netflix series Glow, you've seen what one looks like. Yeah, yeah,

0:25:37.560 --> 0:25:40.040
<v Speaker 1>And I should say that they there were other tests

0:25:40.040 --> 0:25:43.440
<v Speaker 1>being developed that did not involve animals before the nineteen sixties,

0:25:43.440 --> 0:25:45.440
<v Speaker 1>but they just you know, had not reached a level

0:25:45.480 --> 0:25:48.879
<v Speaker 1>of reliability that they could supplant these animal based testing options.

0:25:49.720 --> 0:25:52.320
<v Speaker 1>And as for the developers of the rabbit test, Maxwell E.

0:25:52.440 --> 0:25:55.800
<v Speaker 1>Lapham wrote a book titled Maternity Care in Rural Communities

0:25:55.840 --> 0:25:58.400
<v Speaker 1>in ninety eight, so later in that same decade after

0:25:58.400 --> 0:26:01.359
<v Speaker 1>they introduced the rabbit test. The year before that, he

0:26:01.400 --> 0:26:04.480
<v Speaker 1>had joined the faculty at Tulane University School of Medicine,

0:26:04.640 --> 0:26:06.679
<v Speaker 1>and he actually stayed with Tulane until the end of

0:26:06.680 --> 0:26:09.160
<v Speaker 1>his career. When he died at the age of eighty three,

0:26:09.240 --> 0:26:12.719
<v Speaker 1>it was in Tulane University Hospital and per his New

0:26:12.800 --> 0:26:15.720
<v Speaker 1>York Times obituary, during his time as dean of the

0:26:15.720 --> 0:26:19.439
<v Speaker 1>medical school, he had significantly bolstered the financing of the

0:26:19.440 --> 0:26:22.919
<v Speaker 1>school's research program, taking it from thirty thousand dollars to

0:26:23.040 --> 0:26:26.160
<v Speaker 1>five point five million, and that was basically just through

0:26:26.200 --> 0:26:29.520
<v Speaker 1>grant money. Maurice Freedman moved to the Washington, d c.

0:26:29.720 --> 0:26:33.399
<v Speaker 1>Area and worked for the Beltsville Agricultural Research Center. He

0:26:33.440 --> 0:26:36.200
<v Speaker 1>served in the Army Air Force in World War Two

0:26:36.240 --> 0:26:38.760
<v Speaker 1>as a medical officer and opened a private practice after

0:26:38.800 --> 0:26:41.880
<v Speaker 1>the war was over, specializing in internal medicine. He died

0:26:41.920 --> 0:26:45.000
<v Speaker 1>of cancer in nine at the age of eighty seven,

0:26:45.359 --> 0:26:48.119
<v Speaker 1>and one of Dr Friedman's more famous quotes regarding the

0:26:48.160 --> 0:26:51.440
<v Speaker 1>rabbit test was quote, it's highly reliable. The only more

0:26:51.520 --> 0:26:54.439
<v Speaker 1>reliable test is to wait nine months. That seems like

0:26:54.440 --> 0:26:57.560
<v Speaker 1>a fun place to end it, uh, since it is

0:26:57.600 --> 0:27:00.399
<v Speaker 1>a little bit to me, it's very fascinating, but you know,

0:27:00.440 --> 0:27:02.640
<v Speaker 1>it does get into animal testing, which is not the

0:27:02.640 --> 0:27:05.960
<v Speaker 1>most delightful topic, but it's an important part, I feel

0:27:06.000 --> 0:27:09.679
<v Speaker 1>like of our scientific um history, particularly as it relates

0:27:09.720 --> 0:27:12.400
<v Speaker 1>obviously to reproductive medicine, and it's something that people maybe

0:27:12.480 --> 0:27:17.199
<v Speaker 1>don't realize that this was something that was that was

0:27:17.240 --> 0:27:20.840
<v Speaker 1>not only commonplace, but it was also already being considered

0:27:21.200 --> 0:27:24.000
<v Speaker 1>in terms of animal welfare. I know in Great Britain

0:27:24.040 --> 0:27:26.000
<v Speaker 1>they already had laws in place by the time the

0:27:26.040 --> 0:27:29.520
<v Speaker 1>mouse test was being used about how animals could be

0:27:29.640 --> 0:27:32.360
<v Speaker 1>used for medical testing. That was one of the other

0:27:32.400 --> 0:27:34.320
<v Speaker 1>things that led to some of the debates around whether

0:27:34.359 --> 0:27:37.120
<v Speaker 1>people should adopt the test. It was it was like, yes,

0:27:37.160 --> 0:27:39.280
<v Speaker 1>but we're harming animals and you would just realize you

0:27:39.320 --> 0:27:41.840
<v Speaker 1>were pregnant in a couple of weeks anyway, right. Um,

0:27:42.040 --> 0:27:44.639
<v Speaker 1>So there's a lot of a lot of interesting layers

0:27:44.680 --> 0:27:47.680
<v Speaker 1>to it, and it kind of evidence is a discussion

0:27:47.720 --> 0:27:49.959
<v Speaker 1>about animal rights that was happening I think earlier than

0:27:50.000 --> 0:27:53.400
<v Speaker 1>we maybe think of it exists. Yeah. Well, and that

0:27:53.440 --> 0:27:56.320
<v Speaker 1>conversation connects to something that listeners asked us to talk

0:27:56.359 --> 0:28:00.400
<v Speaker 1>about before, which is the synthesis of insulince and how

0:28:00.440 --> 0:28:04.000
<v Speaker 1>that was developed um, which is like, it's definitely on

0:28:04.040 --> 0:28:08.760
<v Speaker 1>the very long topic idealist um and also connects to

0:28:08.800 --> 0:28:12.840
<v Speaker 1>some of those questions about the ethics of of animals

0:28:12.840 --> 0:28:18.480
<v Speaker 1>in medicine. Yeah. I have a fun postcard from Barcelona. Nice.

0:28:19.080 --> 0:28:21.960
<v Speaker 1>It is from our listener Alex uh, and I believe

0:28:22.040 --> 0:28:25.600
<v Speaker 1>the other name on here is Tari, although I'm not positive. Uh.

0:28:25.680 --> 0:28:27.800
<v Speaker 1>It's written very very tiny and it has been through

0:28:27.840 --> 0:28:31.960
<v Speaker 1>international mail. But Alex writes, Dear Holly and Tracy, Hello

0:28:32.000 --> 0:28:34.720
<v Speaker 1>from Barcelona. My wife and I are traveling Europe to

0:28:34.720 --> 0:28:38.760
<v Speaker 1>celebrate her finishing her master's degree in graphic design. Congratulations.

0:28:39.120 --> 0:28:41.000
<v Speaker 1>I have been meaning to come here since first learning

0:28:41.040 --> 0:28:44.120
<v Speaker 1>about Lisata familia in seventh grade, so this is something

0:28:44.120 --> 0:28:47.040
<v Speaker 1>of a lifelong dream being fulfilled by the way. I

0:28:47.080 --> 0:28:49.680
<v Speaker 1>know you two love to shout out educators, so I

0:28:49.720 --> 0:28:52.440
<v Speaker 1>would like to thank my middle school Spanish teacher. I

0:28:52.440 --> 0:28:55.800
<v Speaker 1>believe that's Senora Savera for inspiring this trip and for

0:28:55.880 --> 0:28:59.720
<v Speaker 1>being an incredible teacher. So yes, of course, always always

0:28:59.720 --> 0:29:02.960
<v Speaker 1>my it is off to educators. It was fortuitous timing

0:29:02.960 --> 0:29:05.040
<v Speaker 1>for me to get to listen to your episode on

0:29:05.080 --> 0:29:07.920
<v Speaker 1>Francisco Franco a few days before I left. I have

0:29:07.960 --> 0:29:10.440
<v Speaker 1>always found the Spanish Civil War very interesting, but have

0:29:10.520 --> 0:29:12.920
<v Speaker 1>only learned about it through fictional works such as Pans

0:29:13.000 --> 0:29:15.960
<v Speaker 1>Labyrinth and for Whom the Bell Tolls. I actually got

0:29:15.960 --> 0:29:18.200
<v Speaker 1>to discuss Franco a little bit with a tour guide

0:29:18.240 --> 0:29:20.680
<v Speaker 1>at a winery, and as a Catalan he had an

0:29:20.720 --> 0:29:25.160
<v Speaker 1>interesting perspective as well about how the Franco regime banned

0:29:25.200 --> 0:29:28.200
<v Speaker 1>the Catalan language and suppressed the culture. Anyway, thank you

0:29:28.200 --> 0:29:30.280
<v Speaker 1>for the great show. So it's a beautiful it's one

0:29:30.280 --> 0:29:33.800
<v Speaker 1>of those um a sort of wide postcards, and it's

0:29:33.840 --> 0:29:37.920
<v Speaker 1>a really beautiful perspective on the Sagarada Familia uh from

0:29:38.080 --> 0:29:40.760
<v Speaker 1>inside and it's just absolutely lovely, So thank you, thank

0:29:40.800 --> 0:29:43.640
<v Speaker 1>you again. I'm always wold that people want to stop

0:29:43.640 --> 0:29:46.160
<v Speaker 1>while they're traveling beautiful places and write his postcard. It's

0:29:46.200 --> 0:29:48.640
<v Speaker 1>quite flattering. Yeah. Uh, if you would like to direct

0:29:48.680 --> 0:29:51.120
<v Speaker 1>to us. You can do so at History Podcast at

0:29:51.120 --> 0:29:53.440
<v Speaker 1>how stuff works dot com. You can also find us

0:29:53.440 --> 0:29:56.560
<v Speaker 1>pretty much everywhere on social media as missed in History,

0:29:56.720 --> 0:29:58.520
<v Speaker 1>and you can go to missed in History dot com,

0:29:58.720 --> 0:30:01.280
<v Speaker 1>which is our website where you will find every episode

0:30:01.280 --> 0:30:03.560
<v Speaker 1>of the show that has ever existed, as well as

0:30:03.560 --> 0:30:05.320
<v Speaker 1>show notes for the ones that Tracy and I have

0:30:05.400 --> 0:30:08.000
<v Speaker 1>worked on. If you would like to subscribe to this podcast,

0:30:08.040 --> 0:30:10.360
<v Speaker 1>I highly encourage it. That would be great. You could

0:30:10.360 --> 0:30:13.280
<v Speaker 1>do that on the I Heart Radio app, at Apple Podcasts,

0:30:13.400 --> 0:30:21.040
<v Speaker 1>or wherever you listen to podcasts. For more on this

0:30:21.200 --> 0:30:30.080
<v Speaker 1>and thousands of other topics, visit how stuff Works dot com.

0:30:27.000 --> 0:30:27.040
<v Speaker 1>M