1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,160 Speaker 1: Every year in June, Apple hosts a huge conference in 2 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: northern California called the Worldwide Developers Conference or ww d C. 3 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 1: Goody good, this is one of the biggest moments of 4 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:21,239 Speaker 1: the year. This is Apple basically saying, hey, this is 5 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:23,760 Speaker 1: our big software roadmap for the next year or so, 6 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 1: while also hinting at the hardware it's planning for the fall. 7 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: Of course, it's also where developers learned to build new 8 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: apps with the latest technologies, which drives Apple's growing services revenues. So, Mark, 9 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: we're giving you an episode of Decrypted, the preview this 10 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:40,559 Speaker 1: year's w w DC. What do you have for us? 11 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 1: Thanks Brad Well. Today I'm going to give you an 12 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: even earlier peak into what's coming at the conference and 13 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:48,280 Speaker 1: take you inside the key app store approval process with 14 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:51,360 Speaker 1: Philip Schumacher. He used to run Apple's app store review 15 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 1: department and play a role in some of the WWC conferences. 16 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 1: He left Apple a few years ago and he's now 17 00:00:57,280 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 1: the CEO of a security company called Identity dot Com 18 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 1: m We reached out to Apple on a number of 19 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: points in this interview and they declined to comment. I'm 20 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 1: Brad Stone and Dim mark Erman, and you are listening 21 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:13,120 Speaker 1: to decrypted. Okay, Mark, I'll let you take it from here. 22 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 1: I remember this must have been ten years ago. In 23 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 1: a past life, they used to do some some app development. 24 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:24,399 Speaker 1: Oh I know ya back in the day. So we 25 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:27,119 Speaker 1: were in ninth grade or tenth grade, my friend Aaron 26 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:30,319 Speaker 1: and I. We saw there was an app called I 27 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: Am Rich. It was a thousand dollars and I think 28 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:36,040 Speaker 1: that's uh, maybe before you started or a little bit 29 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 1: after you started, and that app got removed, got from 30 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:42,199 Speaker 1: the App store after I think sixteen or eighteen people 31 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:44,040 Speaker 1: bought it. So we thought it would be funny to 32 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:46,760 Speaker 1: come up with a hundred dollar version called you Are Rich. 33 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 1: That get that got pulled from the app store. And 34 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 1: that's how I met you, because after I got pulled, 35 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 1: I called to complaint again, before I did all the 36 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 1: Apple News wanting to talk to you, demanding to talk 37 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 1: to Philip Shoemaker's and then I got you. So what 38 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: was that? Like? How often were you were you doing 39 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: stuff like that? Well, you know, to be honest, you 40 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: were one of the few developers that actually reached out 41 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:11,119 Speaker 1: and you were persistent about it. Right that you're doing 42 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:13,520 Speaker 1: what you're doing now. But at the time, there were 43 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: a few developers that would reach out. Two thousand nine 44 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:20,239 Speaker 1: was really breakthrough year for Apple and learning a lot 45 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: about the App Store, and we learned a lot about 46 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,360 Speaker 1: how approving the wrong app can actually make the stock 47 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 1: price go down. And when that happens, you get calls 48 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 1: like I did from Steve, from al Gore and folks 49 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:34,920 Speaker 1: like that that would just you know, be mad at 50 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:37,639 Speaker 1: you for for your team approving an app like that. Yeah, 51 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 1: I know, that's interesting. I didn't realize it went literally 52 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 1: all the way to the talk and beyond with Jobs 53 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 1: and al Gore. What what was the interaction between app 54 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 1: review and was actually you know, volume submission volume. In 55 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 1: March two tho nine, we're just skyrocketing and they kept 56 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 1: going anyway. We were doubling the size of the team 57 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:59,959 Speaker 1: every three to six months, so uh so it would 58 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 1: it was very involved, this very involved process, and to 59 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 1: put these questionable apps in front of the executives once 60 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:10,640 Speaker 1: a month was ridiculous to me. So I made that 61 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:14,359 Speaker 1: meeting weekly, which meant I got a beating weekly right 62 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:16,679 Speaker 1: when you'd miss your numbers or you to prove the 63 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 1: wrong app, which you know, in the early days we 64 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 1: did all of that. It was. It was a process 65 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 1: we were trying to refine because we were we were inventing. However, 66 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 1: when certain apps got to prove that they shouldn't have 67 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: you know that three more three weeks into my job, 68 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:34,359 Speaker 1: Apple released, uh an Apple or approved an app called 69 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 1: baby Shaker. I'm sure you know all about that. Yeah, 70 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 1: take us through that. What take us start to finish? 71 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 1: What happened there? Baby Shaker was was one of these 72 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 1: really weird things because at the time, early early on 73 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 1: in the app store, we were not certain as to 74 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 1: what apps we should have proved and not approved. Early on, 75 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 1: we really had eight uh seven or eight things that 76 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: Steve gave us specifically to look out for, and things 77 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 1: like I Am Rich weren't on there. Things like baby 78 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 1: Shaker just really weren't there. So early on we were 79 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 1: having three sets of eyes look at every app. It 80 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 1: went to somebody that one of my peers, uh someone 81 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 1: senior that I took the team over from, and two 82 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 1: of his employees, and they all approved it. And what 83 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 1: it was was it's a it's a drawing of a 84 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 1: baby and when it would start to cry, just randomly, 85 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 1: you would rock it to sleep, and that was great, 86 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 1: but if you were getting frustrated, people would shake the 87 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 1: heck out of that device, and then it put excess 88 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 1: over the eyes of the baby. And it says never 89 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 1: shake a baby, but it was I wouldn't say it 90 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 1: was a a a good message, but it should never 91 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 1: been approved. So when that app got approved, it was 92 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:41,359 Speaker 1: an interesting day. I got approved on a Monday or Tuesday, 93 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 1: and we announced record earnings. We announced I think Eddie 94 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:48,280 Speaker 1: had announced something like a billion download for the app store. 95 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 1: I mean, all these amazing numbers, and our stock price 96 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:53,359 Speaker 1: went down. And that's because of the bay, because of 97 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:56,719 Speaker 1: the baby Shaker. We had the shaking baby syndrome. Folks 98 00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:00,040 Speaker 1: piketting outside of infinite loop for me baby shap. It 99 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:02,160 Speaker 1: was interesting because I saw my phone ring and it 100 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:05,600 Speaker 1: said Steve Job's office, and I picked up Reticent and 101 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 1: I got as admin who said Steve would like to 102 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 1: talk to you. And Steve just had simple word for me, 103 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 1: You're stupid and you hire stupid people. This was one 104 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:16,600 Speaker 1: of the best conversations I had with Steven. Was just 105 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:18,719 Speaker 1: so succinct, to the point you hung at the phone. 106 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:21,359 Speaker 1: I knew I understood his gist right. It just was 107 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 1: and I had nothing to do with this app. I 108 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 1: didn't hire the people that reviewed it, I didn't review 109 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 1: it myself, but I get it. The next phone call 110 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 1: I got was from the office of Al Gore, and 111 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 1: then that just blew my mind. And talking to Al, 112 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:35,480 Speaker 1: he he just wanted to know what the review process 113 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 1: was and how we missed this and what were the mistakes, 114 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:43,159 Speaker 1: and he was very pleasant, unlike the Steve. Interesting. Is 115 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 1: that common for board members to get involved with the 116 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 1: senior executives at Apple across? They're not usually. Yeah, this 117 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 1: is the first time and only time it ever happened 118 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:52,280 Speaker 1: to me at Apple. So tell me about the review 119 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 1: process itself, how it started under you, and what it 120 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: progressed too, because, like you said, I remember this was 121 00:05:57,680 --> 00:05:59,840 Speaker 1: like a one two week thing. These days you can 122 00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:02,720 Speaker 1: get an Apple proof within two hours, right, So how 123 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 1: does it work? Someone submits an app to the app store, 124 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:08,720 Speaker 1: someone on the app review team downloads the file, puts 125 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 1: on the phone, take us into the room. There's no secret. 126 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 1: First of all, there's zero automation. Well you have to 127 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 1: wrap your head around that, right. Every app has to 128 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:19,359 Speaker 1: see a set of eyes, and that's something that Phil 129 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 1: was always Phil Schiller was always adamant. And that's the 130 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 1: senior VP of marketing who now runs all the app 131 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 1: store operations. That's correct. And Phil Wood was adamant that 132 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 1: we needed a set of eyes because things slipped through. 133 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 1: So you'd go there in the morning, and you're a 134 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 1: good reviewer, you say, you know, I could review probably 135 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:39,599 Speaker 1: between fifty d apps a day. Now, that's high. Sounds 136 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 1: like most reviewers could do about thirty, especially if it's 137 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 1: like a game or something super involved. You know, it 138 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 1: could take forever. That's right. Some of the some of 139 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:49,919 Speaker 1: the levels, some of the the other features unlock over time, 140 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 1: so it's difficult to review every app. We don't have 141 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:55,599 Speaker 1: any special functionality to go in and look at a 142 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 1: specific screen. We're using it just like users are. So 143 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 1: a reviewer goes in, they aim say, let's just say 144 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 1: it's a it's a basic reviewer. They claim thirty apps, 145 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: and so they go and they claim up. Now, what 146 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 1: that does is that downloads it from the server internally 147 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 1: and then starts sinking it to your device. Once everything sinked, 148 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: you have now thirty apps on your device. And you go, 149 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 1: you you load up the tool on your Mac. You 150 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 1: say okay, I'm gonna review this one first, and then 151 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 1: you launch it on your on your device and you 152 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 1: just start looking. Now, there's over a hundred and fifty guidelines. 153 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: In the early days, it wasn't that defined, and so 154 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 1: it's a little more nuanced than what you see in 155 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 1: the guidelines. The guidelines are written up in a gray 156 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: way for a very valid reason. Right, we want we 157 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 1: don't know what we're going to see what you're talking about, 158 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 1: the like the famous app review guidelines that are on 159 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 1: apples Felt website. That's correct, but so developers would submit 160 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 1: apps not knowing what's allowed and what's not allowed. And 161 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 1: the way most developers in the early days would determine 162 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 1: what's okay is they would look at the store. If 163 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:55,960 Speaker 1: it's on the store, clearly it's all right. But if 164 00:07:56,000 --> 00:08:00,040 Speaker 1: you think about it, app reviewers are human, so in 165 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 1: in in a case like this, I saw that as 166 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 1: an absolute failure, and I've always always tried to fix it. 167 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 1: That's why I think automation would be so so helpful. 168 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: But you and I know a I can only get 169 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 1: us so far. Now, then we relied heavily on this weekie, 170 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 1: and this Weekie became hundreds of pages long. You expect 171 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 1: a reviewer to review an app in about thirteen minutes, 172 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 1: right for a new app thirteen minutes while looking at 173 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 1: a hundred pages of a wiki. It's just it's untenable. 174 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 1: So over time, we we just started refining these these 175 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:32,599 Speaker 1: wiki guidelines. We we started refining all of our processes 176 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:34,680 Speaker 1: to be able to make a little flow flow a 177 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: little faster, and to be honest, to get it down 178 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:39,560 Speaker 1: under three weeks, which is what it was when I joined. 179 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:42,560 Speaker 1: We we had to make a lot of changes, and 180 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 1: one of the first was over time, I got rid 181 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 1: of the three eyes on every app and got it 182 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 1: down to one set of eyes. But all these reviewers 183 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:52,559 Speaker 1: had to pass a lot of education that we did 184 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 1: internally and then ultimately I sit down with me. So 185 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 1: in order to be you know, the guy who can 186 00:08:57,880 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 1: put the stamp down to push our guy or girls 187 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 1: push the app out, they had to have a chat 188 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 1: with you first. You had to approve them as a 189 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 1: member of the team. Yeah, I sat down with everybody 190 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 1: before they could push that final button and remind them 191 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:13,440 Speaker 1: about Baby Shaker, remind them about I am rich, and 192 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:15,839 Speaker 1: and talk to them about stock price going down based 193 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 1: on just one bad decision that the team makes. And uh, look, 194 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 1: that baby shaker incident was painful internally. So what's the 195 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 1: room like? Is it like this big, you know, big 196 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 1: room with a bunch of desks, a bunch of iPads, iPhones, etcetera, 197 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 1: where everyone saying next to each other collaborating or is 198 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 1: it very individualized? Yeah, tell me, pretend you're an opper viewer. 199 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 1: Tell me what your days like. So I'll tell you 200 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:43,319 Speaker 1: about the first days. Right, the early days March two 201 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 1: nine and most of two thousand nine, we were in 202 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 1: infinite loop three, so I O three and we were 203 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 1: scattered in conference rooms, so no rooms not bigger than this. 204 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 1: In a room this big, we would probably put in 205 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 1: five reviewers with you know, a foot and a half 206 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 1: two ft of death space, and we're in a small 207 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 1: room by the way, we're in a small room. We'd 208 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 1: fit five folks in there. We'd black in all the windows, 209 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 1: and we would card activate every door. Because this was 210 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 1: you're dealing with developers secrets, right, they haven't released as 211 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 1: publicly yet. You want to be able to hold onto 212 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 1: these things and make sure that um um and make 213 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 1: sure that nobody outside of the app review team sees 214 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 1: these apps in advance because we have a we have 215 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:25,680 Speaker 1: a responsibility to the developers. So everything was locked down. 216 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 1: We had black curtains everywhere and UH and the reviewer 217 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 1: would sit in front of a MacBook and and one 218 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:34,440 Speaker 1: or two phones typically, you know. Obviously, after the iPad 219 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 1: came out, we put an iPad and every UH, every 220 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 1: UH reviewer had multiple iPads and multiple iPhones. And over 221 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 1: time we added to the processes such as wiping out 222 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:48,079 Speaker 1: each device every morning, and we had a lot of 223 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 1: a lot of crazy situation scenarios in in those rooms 224 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:54,960 Speaker 1: where people would be eating UH. So what one of 225 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 1: the big ones was oatmeal every morning with fish sauce 226 00:10:57,360 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: on it, and half the team would choke at that. 227 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 1: The other half the team loved it. So just crazy 228 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 1: things like that always happening. Now. The way it is 229 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 1: now is it's an open I'm sure you've been to 230 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 1: Facebook and other companies like that and you've seen their 231 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 1: open floor plan. It's pretty much like that. Everybody gets 232 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 1: about three ft now of death space. But it's all 233 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:18,840 Speaker 1: open and it's extremely collaborative. Now, how many people would 234 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:22,079 Speaker 1: you say are reviewing apps? And is it localized to Cupertino. 235 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 1: Do places otherwhere, elsewhere in California, elsewhere in the world. 236 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: How what's the setup like in in in a company 237 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:31,679 Speaker 1: where where you're representing over fifty three countries. We are 238 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 1: fifty three languages that were represented by my team. You 239 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 1: would be great to be able to hire people outside 240 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:40,679 Speaker 1: of Cupertino, but that's not the Apple way, right. The 241 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:43,360 Speaker 1: Apple way is this is an intellectual property. What we 242 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:45,840 Speaker 1: do on the review team and how we review apps 243 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:50,080 Speaker 1: is very new to the world. We didn't want anybody 244 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 1: like Microsoft or Google or anybody learning our secrets, so 245 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:56,320 Speaker 1: we never hired contractors and we kept them all in Cupertino, 246 00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 1: and then ultimately we built a few buildings in Sunnyvale 247 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 1: and that's where they're to this day. What do you 248 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 1: think of the recent App store changes? There's been a lot, 249 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:06,679 Speaker 1: you know, to improve it on the consumer side, the interface, 250 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 1: but also uh subscriptions, new ways for developers to create 251 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 1: additional revenue. What are your thoughts. There's good and bad 252 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 1: with all of it. You know. The thing that pained 253 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 1: me as a I've I've always been a uh. You 254 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:22,040 Speaker 1: could look at my job at Apple is kind of 255 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:24,200 Speaker 1: a regulator to make allow what goes on the store, 256 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 1: and what how they marketed all of that other stuff. 257 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:28,959 Speaker 1: I didn't really care about that. The thing that kind 258 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:30,680 Speaker 1: of got me a little nervous was when we started 259 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:35,200 Speaker 1: putting advertisements in the and when you would search for 260 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:38,320 Speaker 1: a certain game added the top. The search ads were 261 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 1: painful like Google search results, and they would have to 262 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 1: pay per click or pay for every hundred clicks or 263 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 1: so or hundred downloads, so you could have the worst 264 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 1: app ever that's always appearing at the top. And uh, 265 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 1: and I talked about worst apps a lot, because there's 266 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:54,959 Speaker 1: a lot of stuff in the store that's that shouldn't 267 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:56,959 Speaker 1: be there in my opinion, right, So how do you 268 00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:58,440 Speaker 1: think it should be? Do you think they should be 269 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 1: more stringent? I remember were very early days, especially when 270 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:04,440 Speaker 1: the first iPad came out. Tell me about that with 271 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 1: Steve Jobs involved personally, and what are the first styles 272 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: and apps for the iPad, You're gonna be extra careful 273 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:12,319 Speaker 1: because I remember when I submitted iPad apps, those things 274 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 1: were getting rejected left and right. Doesn't make stay that 275 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 1: it doesn't make sense to have as one of the 276 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 1: first bundle of apps. Talks about that, right, the the 277 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 1: the iPad was was interesting. It was the first hardware 278 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 1: release that my team got really involved in. For the 279 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:29,440 Speaker 1: most part, Apples super tight on on new equipment, new products, 280 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:31,679 Speaker 1: and they don't want to expose it to anybody. And 281 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:34,200 Speaker 1: my team was mostly a bunch of ex Apple genius 282 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 1: Apple store folks, right, That's where we hired a majority 283 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 1: of our of our people from, and so Apple didn't 284 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 1: see them as the standard corporate folks, and therefore the 285 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 1: team wasn't as as trustworthy as the others. And plus 286 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 1: it's a large group. It grew over time. So so 287 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 1: we typically weren't involved in new product releases and I 288 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 1: understand that, but sometimes we have to get involved, like 289 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:56,600 Speaker 1: the watch and the iPad were two examples. The iPad 290 00:13:56,679 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: we were involved pretty much about three weeks before launch, 291 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 1: not much more than that, and that's when we started. 292 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 1: Except this was the only time we allowed people to 293 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:08,720 Speaker 1: submit apps that were in alpha or beta state, just 294 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:11,840 Speaker 1: so we could start understanding what people were because people 295 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:16,319 Speaker 1: developers didn't have iPads yet, someone needed to test it 296 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 1: out on hardware, obviously would be Apple, so they could 297 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 1: be ready for day one when consumers get them. That's right, 298 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 1: really good point right in the past, we don't. We 299 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 1: never allow you to submit an app until the hardware 300 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 1: has been released because we want to make sure you're 301 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 1: trying it on actual hardware. You don't just do it 302 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 1: based on a simulator build, because it's not it's never 303 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: the same, never the same. But you and I you 304 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 1: probably know this as well as I do. Most developers 305 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 1: submit on a simulator build. So every night I'd send 306 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 1: a bunch of apps off to the Exacts and say 307 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 1: here's the issue we have, right it's tracking location or 308 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 1: whatever the issue was, and trying to figure out if 309 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 1: this was something that's appropriate or not. Everybody wanted to 310 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 1: change the UI. They wanted to go to like a 311 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 1: desktop UI for the iPad. So we are a lot 312 00:14:56,080 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 1: of developers drawing these, uh these like desktop metaphors, which 313 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 1: we rejected all of them, even though it's kind of interesting, 314 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 1: it just didn't fit the iPad and iPhone model, the 315 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 1: iOS model, So we rejected a bunch of those. But 316 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 1: early on I grabbed a team about fifteen people. We 317 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 1: put them in a special room from the app review team, 318 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 1: and they were the only ones that were able to 319 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 1: play with the hardware. We hadn't mounted uh you know, 320 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 1: with the cable light like used to see in the 321 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 1: Apple stores, mounted to the desk and uh, and we 322 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 1: collected them every evening. So it was a very tight 323 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 1: process and we rejected and rejected every day. We rejected apps, 324 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 1: and developers resubmit every day those same apps to be 325 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 1: able to be in that first block. So that leads 326 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 1: me to my next question. And I know, I mean, 327 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 1: you could easily just flatly deny this. Do some developers 328 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 1: get you know, special attention or special policies? And in circumstances, 329 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 1: what's the difference between you know, me as a developer 330 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 1: back then in high school, uh, you know, a mom 331 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 1: and pop shop development firm and Facebook. Because the idea 332 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: was they would all be treated the same. But is 333 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 1: that necessarily the case. Steve always argued that all developers 334 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 1: should be treated equally. For me, it was all about 335 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 1: I took Steve's word and I said, yes, all developers 336 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 1: are created equally. I will not give one developer any allowance. 337 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 1: And if you if you read some of the early 338 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 1: stuff that I wrote on Twitter, etcetera, I was calling 339 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 1: out Facebook all the time, even though they were one 340 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 1: of these privileged few developers, they had some of the 341 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 1: worst code at the time. I mean they uploaded remember 342 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 1: the Wall Street Journal article the apps are Watching You. 343 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 1: That radically fundamentally changed what we did at atter View 344 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 1: because we realized that even big developers linked In and 345 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 1: the facebooks that were taking your contacts and sending them 346 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 1: to the cloud, you just couldn't trust them, right. They 347 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 1: weren't notifying people that they were doing this yet Path 348 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 1: and Facebook and LinkedIn and so many companies were doing 349 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 1: this that you start giving this special allowances to these 350 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 1: big guys because they're who they are, and you get burned. 351 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 1: There is another app I did want to ask you 352 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:05,920 Speaker 1: about Google Voice. Obviously you know today ten years later 353 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 1: this is Google's calling service. But Google wanted to do 354 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:12,159 Speaker 1: was launch Google Voice for iPhones. This was in the 355 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:14,440 Speaker 1: early days of the App store. But there's a whole 356 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:17,159 Speaker 1: back story. There was talk us through it. Well it 357 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:20,639 Speaker 1: actually you know, Google Voice for for online for the 358 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:24,440 Speaker 1: web came out long before before they tried to push 359 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:26,439 Speaker 1: through a Google Voice for the for the iPhone, and 360 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 1: the third party developer was the first one on board. 361 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:31,120 Speaker 1: And what he did was he wrote an app for 362 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 1: uh I forget what the name of it was, and 363 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:36,119 Speaker 1: for Google Voice Voice. I think I think it was 364 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:39,920 Speaker 1: with Sean. I don't good memory, good memory, Yeah, it's 365 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:43,160 Speaker 1: definitely g Voice. And I had weekly calls with him. 366 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 1: I mean he and I had many conversations and it 367 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 1: lasted eleven months, probably of me saying you're not going 368 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 1: to get on the store. You're not getting on the 369 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: store today, You're not getting on the store then, and 370 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: it went on daily. Now let's take a look at why, right, 371 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: what is Google Voice. Well, it replaces the telephone features 372 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:02,960 Speaker 1: of your It replaces that the calling features of your iPhone. 373 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:05,399 Speaker 1: That was kind of strike number one. Apple says, no, 374 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:09,200 Speaker 1: this this is for we don't want Google to take 375 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:11,199 Speaker 1: over the phone. We don't want there to be a 376 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:18,399 Speaker 1: Gmail client, a browser, a phone calling contacts, etcetera, etcetera. Right, 377 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,160 Speaker 1: because then it would become the g phone. Was the fear, right, 378 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 1: just like they're afraid of the Facebook phone. So there 379 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 1: was an actual fear inside Apple early days of the 380 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 1: app store that if they allowed these different Google services 381 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,400 Speaker 1: on the phone, the phone could basically become a Google phone. 382 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:34,199 Speaker 1: That was a real thing, that was a real thing. 383 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:37,360 Speaker 1: And the fear that somebody would come along a Facebook 384 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 1: and Google whomever and wipe off and remove all of 385 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 1: our items, you know, the dialing, the contacts, and replace 386 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 1: that with Facebook or Google variations of it. That was 387 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:49,399 Speaker 1: the number one fear because then suddenly you're kind of 388 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 1: you're losing this this uh um, You're you're losing the 389 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:56,400 Speaker 1: cash of the phone. You're losing the people think more 390 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 1: about Apple once they start using these other apps, they'd 391 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:01,399 Speaker 1: be thinking more about Google. Now is that a reason 392 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 1: why still to this day, and I believe that will 393 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:06,399 Speaker 1: be the case for iOS thirteen, which we'll get to. 394 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:10,919 Speaker 1: You cannot set other third party apps as defaults for 395 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:14,240 Speaker 1: main functions. Yes, I would say that's absolutely the reason. Now, 396 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 1: if if you look at it, if if if you 397 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:18,639 Speaker 1: look at historically what app was doing Apple Finally, you know, 398 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: Scott Forstall, the VP of engineering at the time, uh 399 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:24,680 Speaker 1: said something really good. He says, look, I don't care 400 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:28,120 Speaker 1: if these other competing services come on the platform. It's 401 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:30,359 Speaker 1: actually good for us. We work harder to make a 402 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 1: better product. And Scott was the was the wise man 403 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 1: in the room. But but others always pushed back on that. Ultimately, 404 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:39,879 Speaker 1: we got Google Voice in, at which point I was 405 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:42,880 Speaker 1: able to to get g Voice on onto it and 406 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 1: allow other voipe apps like line too and uh and 407 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: other apps as well. So that takes me to my 408 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 1: next point. What about this growing concern of competition between 409 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:57,440 Speaker 1: Apple and the app developers. You have this whole Supreme 410 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:01,160 Speaker 1: Court situation where they ruled that there can be lower 411 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 1: court lawsuits in regards to the percentage that Apple takes 412 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:08,159 Speaker 1: from developers. There's also fear. There was a story in 413 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 1: the New York Times recently that Apple was pulling a 414 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:13,120 Speaker 1: lot of apps that competed with screen Time. Apple said 415 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:16,359 Speaker 1: that was because of privacy concerns, which I totally believe, 416 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:18,360 Speaker 1: but that doesn't take away from the fact that there 417 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:22,160 Speaker 1: is that concern, especially now with these new iOS releases 418 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:25,120 Speaker 1: that are coming out with better and better core apps. Right, 419 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 1: what do you think of that? I'm really worried about 420 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 1: about the competition piece. You know, you see the like 421 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:34,400 Speaker 1: Spotify going to the EU regulators about breaking um and 422 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:38,480 Speaker 1: you have Elizabeth Warren talking about breaking up Facebook and apples, etcetera. 423 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 1: And and I struggle with that. I recently wrote a 424 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 1: Medium post on on this thing because I believe that 425 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 1: that there is now a conflict as Apple goes into 426 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:51,480 Speaker 1: these spaces that are ripe with competition. You know, in 427 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 1: the early days of the iPhone, everything Apple was doing 428 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:57,679 Speaker 1: was new, but once there started being competition, like Spotify 429 00:20:57,800 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 1: was a big one. Right. Remember back in the day 430 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:02,159 Speaker 1: when Steve said nobody wants to rent their music. I 431 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 1: was at Rhapsody at the time. I love the digital 432 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 1: subscription music business and to hear that just kind of 433 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 1: broke my heart. And now you have Apple Music, and 434 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 1: now you have Apple Music. So when Apple Music comes 435 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:14,160 Speaker 1: out and they put it on the thing and on 436 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 1: on the platform, and then they require Spotify or or 437 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:20,359 Speaker 1: let's say Netflix for a different business model, and they 438 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:21,919 Speaker 1: put them out there and say, oh, by the way, 439 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:25,160 Speaker 1: you still have to pay us. The margins are too thin. 440 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:27,159 Speaker 1: That's why we changed some of the guidelines in the 441 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 1: early days about allowing for UH magazines and certain types 442 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 1: of of content to to not have to use an 443 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 1: app purchase. Right, they could get around that. Remember that 444 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 1: because of the March was a shift. So originally you 445 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:47,200 Speaker 1: cannot build free to play apps and games, so if 446 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 1: you wanted to offer in app purchases, you're app needed 447 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:52,879 Speaker 1: to be paid one. Two years later they switched it 448 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:56,679 Speaker 1: so you could do that's right, that's right. And Apple 449 00:21:56,760 --> 00:22:01,680 Speaker 1: really was focusing on a few core things like like music, movies, uh, 450 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:05,440 Speaker 1: magazine subscriptions because the margins are just so thin there 451 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:09,120 Speaker 1: they can't spare the so Apple made a special allowance 452 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 1: for that. But they're now in a position of of 453 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:15,639 Speaker 1: of dominance again. Right, we have the Apple Music, but 454 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,679 Speaker 1: Apple Music doesn't have to carve out and pay that 455 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 1: to some other entity, but Spotify has to. I mean, 456 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:24,800 Speaker 1: this is where you can absolutely annihilate the competition. But 457 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 1: so what do you think is going to happen? What 458 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 1: do you think the outcome is going to be? Do 459 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:31,400 Speaker 1: you think Apple will lower the the split, the commission split? 460 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 1: What's the solution there? This is a tough one because 461 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 1: I don't know what the right answer is here. You 462 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 1: know too, and I think it's gonna be status quo. So, 463 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:50,720 Speaker 1: speaking of developers, we are sitting here just two weeks 464 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:55,639 Speaker 1: ahead of the Annual Developers Conference, and given your background 465 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 1: and your knowledge of apps and developers, I thought it 466 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 1: would be great to talk about this upcoming w w 467 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 1: DC with you. And We've reported a lot about what's 468 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 1: to be expected, but I'm mostly curious from you. What 469 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:12,440 Speaker 1: was Apper views involvement or your involvement specifically in your 470 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 1: more senior role on ww d C this big conference 471 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 1: for thousands of developers. What were rehearsals like was the 472 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 1: atmosphere for the company leading up to this big June 473 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 1: launch Every year, it's, uh, it's chaos there right now, 474 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 1: you know, it's just a few weeks away. Apple. Apple 475 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,640 Speaker 1: really starts diving digging into this in in January time frame, 476 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:35,640 Speaker 1: and they start focusing internally. Now, the venues and all 477 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 1: of that's already been reserved, you know, so that gets 478 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 1: handled a well in advance. But that January and we 479 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:44,160 Speaker 1: come back from the holiday break, Uh, it's it's crunch 480 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 1: mode for for everything. And one of the first things 481 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:50,359 Speaker 1: is getting the tickets in the right developers hands. So 482 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 1: as you know, it used to be we would make 483 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 1: them available, we wouldn't tell people when we'd make them available, 484 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 1: and people would buy them up quickly. Now it was 485 00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:00,199 Speaker 1: always on us time zones. So we'd open in the 486 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 1: door the first thing in the morning, ten a m. 487 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 1: On Apple time in California, and we'd find that the 488 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 1: Chinese developers were way under represented. The European ones were 489 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 1: a little better represented because of the time zone. But 490 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 1: people in the East, uh in Asia and stuff, they 491 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 1: were not able to get um the tickets they needed 492 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,639 Speaker 1: to and that's when it really started selling out. You know, 493 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 1: before the iPhone, we couldn't give away tickets, and now 494 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 1: it's more of a lottery system. But you know, you 495 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 1: have to use air quotes when you say that, because 496 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:33,120 Speaker 1: it's a lottery for for you and me, But it's 497 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 1: not a lottery for the Epics and the Zingas in 498 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:39,360 Speaker 1: the ten cents right, they're guaranteed admission and it will 499 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 1: always be that way because you need some of their 500 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:43,880 Speaker 1: products on board. So it starts out with just trying 501 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 1: to get the tickets into people's hands, and then it's 502 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 1: all about getting the right content. And there's a lot 503 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 1: I was on all those planning meetings trying to figure 504 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:53,960 Speaker 1: out exactly what we're gonna do, who the band is 505 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,440 Speaker 1: going to be. This is all pretty much and right 506 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: now it's in crunch mode for presentations. The developers are 507 00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:02,879 Speaker 1: all getting during their rehearsals right now. Because you know, 508 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 1: we always Apple always wanted at least a thousand developers 509 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: to be in attendance at this, which is Apple Developers. 510 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 1: Apple engineers. Yes, that's correct, Apple engineers. So they have 511 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:15,280 Speaker 1: their main keynote which is always on that Monday, typically 512 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 1: on that Monday, but then throughout the week hundreds of sessions. 513 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:22,440 Speaker 1: You would say, Apple engineers a little going a little 514 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,920 Speaker 1: deeper on the new API s, new developer frameworks, the 515 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,359 Speaker 1: new applications. That's right, and so that's what they've been 516 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 1: preparing for the last six months. That's what we're preparing for. 517 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 1: And then after that they're expected to be in the 518 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 1: lab for long periods of time because when you release 519 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,399 Speaker 1: a new feature, uh, you want to be able to 520 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,160 Speaker 1: come down and speak directly to some of the developers 521 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:42,399 Speaker 1: that are trying to use your APIs, etcetera, and be 522 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 1: able to answer some of these questions. A lot of 523 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 1: bugs get fixed. Developers learn Apple developers learn a lot 524 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 1: about how people are trying to use the APIs and 525 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,360 Speaker 1: were able to fix them up before it goes to production. 526 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 1: What was your involvement in new features, new iOS features 527 00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:00,199 Speaker 1: or mac os features that were presented annually pretty much 528 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 1: zero to be honest. It's these features was great about 529 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 1: when Scott Forstall was run. It changed when when he 530 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:10,680 Speaker 1: left Scott became he helped us build out the app Store, 531 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:12,880 Speaker 1: and he saw all the pains we were going through 532 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 1: when we were building it, and so Scott was very 533 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 1: uh knowledgeable of what would impact app review, and so 534 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:19,880 Speaker 1: whenever they had a new feature that we were gonna 535 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 1: have to review for, he'd always make his team figure 536 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:25,160 Speaker 1: out how is Apple, how is the app review going 537 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: to review for this feature? How are they going to 538 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:29,159 Speaker 1: be able to tell if they're doing it right or 539 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:31,160 Speaker 1: if they're doing it wrong. And he was really good 540 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 1: about that. When he left, everything changed. We had less 541 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:37,640 Speaker 1: visibility into engineering. Engineering never consulted us when they would 542 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:39,680 Speaker 1: submit a new feature or put a feature out that 543 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,199 Speaker 1: would greatly impact us. We just got notified a few 544 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,160 Speaker 1: weeks before the dub dub d C and then we'd 545 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 1: have to kind of figure out how we were going 546 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:48,880 Speaker 1: to work with it. So how else do you think 547 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:52,920 Speaker 1: Apple software development changed From the transition from Scott Forstall, 548 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 1: who was the first person in charge of iOS software, 549 00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 1: to Craig Federigo who now runs iOS and mac os 550 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 1: software and all the underlying frameworks. It's it's it's tough 551 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 1: to know how much was was the changing of the 552 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:09,520 Speaker 1: guard versus just the amount of code that people suddenly 553 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:12,720 Speaker 1: have to write. I mean, I think we're all pretty 554 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 1: aware that that things are a little buggier than they 555 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:17,680 Speaker 1: used to be, right that the fit and finish of 556 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 1: the software, and I'm not talking the hardware, the software, 557 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 1: it's just not what it used to be now. I 558 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 1: completely agree with you. We had a story last year 559 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 1: that after a couple of years of people making comments 560 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:30,880 Speaker 1: like this, which is entirely valid and true, they sort 561 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 1: of changed the development process so instead of focusing on 562 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:35,920 Speaker 1: one annual release, they would focus on the next couple 563 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,680 Speaker 1: of releases, and they could give and take software features 564 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 1: between the two. And I think that's what we're going 565 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:45,160 Speaker 1: to see a little bit more this year, is new features, 566 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:47,159 Speaker 1: but with a big performance push. So I want to 567 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,400 Speaker 1: talk about some of the new things that they're going 568 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:52,919 Speaker 1: to be pushing on. On one hand, the Apple Watch 569 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 1: is going to be getting more independent, so they're going 570 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,639 Speaker 1: to be adding for the first time, the App Store 571 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,880 Speaker 1: to the Apple Watch. That's something that you think developers 572 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:06,000 Speaker 1: have been asking for, anticipating what would the benefit be there? 573 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,359 Speaker 1: How would even look on such a small screen. Yeah, 574 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:11,160 Speaker 1: it's that that's a great question. It's uh, it's something 575 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,920 Speaker 1: we always expected when we released the watch. The expectation 576 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:16,480 Speaker 1: in the very first was that we were gonna have 577 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,960 Speaker 1: a watch store right on the watch. But it became 578 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 1: embarrassing the number of apps that you would um that 579 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 1: were submitted specifically for the watch. I mean, as you 580 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 1: know right now when it's watch only apps, which if 581 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 1: you think about in the in in or apps that 582 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:34,960 Speaker 1: support the watch, I want to say watch only apps, 583 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 1: apps and support the watch only about versus two point 584 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 1: two million. So it's always been kind of uh embarrassment 585 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 1: for Apple there. They didn't get enough people understanding the 586 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 1: design how to design for a watch, but also people 587 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,200 Speaker 1: just didn't gravitate towards it as much as they did 588 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,720 Speaker 1: the iPad, iPhone and Apple TV. The apps were super, 589 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 1: super buggy, like the launch apps. They would take a 590 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 1: very long time to load. It was like very It 591 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 1: was remembering when the iPhone three G came out with 592 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,160 Speaker 1: the app store. Okay, so the phone cum July, then 593 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 1: Steve jobs and bills this big software update in September, 594 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 1: but within the three month period that thing was really 595 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 1: bugging really But that's what the Apple Watch was like 596 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 1: for like the first year or two. That's right, you know, 597 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 1: and so so yeah, Apple was always kind of embarrassed 598 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 1: by by the Watch submission numbers. I tracked him every 599 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 1: week and I remember doing that for about six months. 600 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:26,720 Speaker 1: Finally the executive said, you know, we don't need that 601 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,479 Speaker 1: data anymore because it's just kind of a letdown when 602 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:31,360 Speaker 1: you see it. I mean, I always tracked data for me. 603 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:33,840 Speaker 1: Transparency is important, right, you want to be as open 604 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 1: as you can with the executives on my team would 605 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 1: make a mistake, et cetera. But we always included this data. 606 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:40,800 Speaker 1: We always wanted to see how it was trending up 607 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 1: or down and submissions because I could allocate team resources differently, 608 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:46,960 Speaker 1: take people off the Watch team because I had different 609 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 1: teams for everything. I had Chinese language team, I had 610 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 1: to Watch team, and and the idea was to be 611 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:56,080 Speaker 1: able to to use allocate your resources appropriately. So I'm 612 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 1: excited that the Watch is finally getting its own store. 613 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 1: It's going to be difficult to navigate, and we know 614 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 1: all of the issues that are in a constrained UI, 615 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 1: but but I'm excited that finally the pushes there because 616 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 1: the idea is that now you have a place to 617 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,960 Speaker 1: look watch only you be able to sit there and 618 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 1: while you're sitting on the bus, you'll just be able 619 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 1: to swipe through your watch and see what apps you 620 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 1: want to download. I think it might have a little 621 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 1: more engagement. I think it'll be good for them. And 622 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,600 Speaker 1: they're also doing a few new applications for the Apple Watch. 623 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 1: There's going to be a voice memos out for the 624 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 1: first time. There's going to be a woman's health app 625 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:33,480 Speaker 1: called Cycles, a pill reminder reminders app called Dose. What 626 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 1: do you think of them adding? And there's this Apple 627 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:38,560 Speaker 1: Books out for listening to audiobooks that they're adding. Do 628 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 1: you think that's gonna, you know, push developers to build 629 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 1: their own competitive apps for the watch as well, or 630 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 1: does it scare them away? That's the question. What do 631 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 1: you think? I think it's it's it's a difficult one 632 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 1: to me. Apple hasn't been getting the uptake on on 633 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 1: watch submissions that they want. People love the watch, don't 634 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 1: get me wrong. People love to watch for it's built 635 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 1: in functionality for the most part. These apps are are 636 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 1: are tertiary or secondary your tertiary. So I think it 637 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,960 Speaker 1: will probably drive more development if if they start getting 638 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 1: more engagement, especially with these apps that that are needed. 639 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 1: I mean, why haven't we had a voice memos app 640 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:12,400 Speaker 1: on the on the watch? It would have been helpful 641 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,479 Speaker 1: for this would have been very helpable. And and so 642 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 1: for a long time you're you're wondering why had they're 643 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,080 Speaker 1: doing that. I'm glad Apple is finally doing a push 644 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 1: to do more native apps, because yeah, I think absolutely 645 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 1: will drive more engagement. A few other things here on 646 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 1: This is on the iOS thirteen side, So the iPhone 647 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 1: and iPad update. Obviously, the iPad is gonna get big 648 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 1: updates for multitasking as they try to push away from 649 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 1: the Mac in some respects Spring developers more towards the iPad. 650 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 1: Will get into that in a second, but also some 651 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 1: more functionality taking over some third pretty apps, like a 652 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 1: way to create a second display by connecting your iPad 653 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:52,720 Speaker 1: to a Mac, a new reminders application that's pretty nifty, 654 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 1: new stuff and messages, updated maps, and new find my 655 00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 1: Friends and find my iPhone combined app. Do you think 656 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 1: this is going to present issues for developers whereas Apple 657 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,480 Speaker 1: was coming out with better versions in some respects of 658 00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:07,600 Speaker 1: what app developers are doing, or do you think this 659 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 1: is just going to make both sides better. It's it's 660 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 1: a very valid point a question. It's it's tough. It's 661 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 1: tough to know the answer here, right, Apple, Apple and 662 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:20,360 Speaker 1: App Review have been putting companies out of business since 663 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:22,240 Speaker 1: two thousand nine. Right that That's what I was like 664 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 1: to say, because you know how many companies I had 665 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 1: to call and destroy and say, look, your business model 666 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:30,560 Speaker 1: doesn't work anymore. We can't allow that type of app 667 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:32,920 Speaker 1: in the store. I've done that too many companies. Now, 668 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 1: some of those people are still friends of mine, oddly enough, 669 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:38,920 Speaker 1: or they became friends in this process because they like 670 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 1: the transparency and the openness of me saying, look, I'm sorry, 671 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 1: we're entering into this business. And so that's happened too 672 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,240 Speaker 1: for you. I mean, I'm sure it was. What's the 673 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:49,600 Speaker 1: personal broke my heart? Broke my heart every time, because 674 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:52,280 Speaker 1: I would say to the reviewers almost every day, it's like, 675 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 1: because remembers two thousand nine, uh, a lot of developers 676 00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 1: were submitting apps and we weren't in there. I wouldn't 677 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:02,200 Speaker 1: say it was a session, but the economy wasn't super strong. 678 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:04,400 Speaker 1: A lot of developers were out of jobs, and I 679 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,480 Speaker 1: would remind the review team every day that you are 680 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 1: what's stopping an app from getting on the store and 681 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 1: potentially making money for this developer to put food on 682 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:14,480 Speaker 1: the table and send their kids to school. But look, 683 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:18,480 Speaker 1: this is one of those cases where um, a developer 684 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:22,280 Speaker 1: can can take Scott four Stalls advice and say, look, 685 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 1: I can do something better. Let me out think Apple here. Uh, 686 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 1: not easy to do always. Apple's got a lot of 687 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 1: money and they've got a lot of big brains. But 688 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 1: at the same time, I think we're gonna always come 689 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:37,880 Speaker 1: and find another avenue at this same same type of technology. 690 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 1: What about the Forgotten app Store, the t VUS App Store, 691 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:45,320 Speaker 1: What is going on there? Her are they getting a 692 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 1: lot of submissions? It doesn't seem like new apps are 693 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 1: getting added to that regularly or people are really taking 694 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 1: advantage of the plot. It's it's sad to me past 695 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:57,880 Speaker 1: the iOS app store, the the TV app store. To me, 696 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,160 Speaker 1: it was going to be was was my fair of it, 697 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 1: because I loved having the big screen. I love just 698 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:06,240 Speaker 1: being able to sit there and do that. But you know, 699 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:08,960 Speaker 1: it's not easy to enter your credentials. You don't have 700 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:11,319 Speaker 1: to get your app out and and uh on your 701 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 1: iPhone and and so for me, it's just it's not 702 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:16,919 Speaker 1: still not a great user experience, and how many people 703 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:19,319 Speaker 1: enter the password by speaking it into the thing, And 704 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:21,799 Speaker 1: when you're surrounded by folks, you know you don't do that. 705 00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 1: So it's it's difficult to get into the TV app 706 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,160 Speaker 1: store um for a user to get in there and 707 00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:31,520 Speaker 1: find interesting things. But I think there's still so much promise. 708 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 1: We just need better ways of interacting with it. And 709 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 1: I still love yet to see that, right And what 710 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:38,840 Speaker 1: about the home Pod. There's no official app store, but 711 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:41,319 Speaker 1: there is a way to tap iPhone apps into it. 712 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:45,160 Speaker 1: I think it's a huge, huge missed opportunity. Agree, I 713 00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:48,319 Speaker 1: don't anticipate that being fixed this year. But do you 714 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:50,080 Speaker 1: would Do you think they would go up against the 715 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:53,960 Speaker 1: Alexa app? I think they should, absolutely should. It's just 716 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:57,640 Speaker 1: they need more right for right now, Alexa has got 717 00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,600 Speaker 1: pretty you know. I I go into Alexa if if 718 00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:02,000 Speaker 1: I want to get something new on that, I go 719 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:04,440 Speaker 1: to my phone. I find something interesting and I install it, 720 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 1: and pretty much anything I want is there for the 721 00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,960 Speaker 1: most part, and I enjoy that. When you can get 722 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,320 Speaker 1: to that point with the home Pot, when there's enough submissions, 723 00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 1: I just don't know how much there is there right now. Yeah, 724 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:18,200 Speaker 1: it seems like one of the weaker products in their lineup. 725 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 1: But just one other thing here that I just wanted to, 726 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:24,520 Speaker 1: you know, to touch upon. Going back to w w 727 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 1: d C. What was it like for you personally, like 728 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:30,399 Speaker 1: that week, that time that lead up to it. What 729 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,920 Speaker 1: was the drop off after those June introductions and does 730 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:35,919 Speaker 1: the process really ramp up for you in those three 731 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:40,600 Speaker 1: months between the new iPhone release and w w DC finishing. Yeah, 732 00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,279 Speaker 1: w d d C was was difficult for my team. 733 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 1: The first year I was there. We had no presence 734 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:47,759 Speaker 1: at at dub d C as far as my team 735 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 1: was concerned. My team was back in Creuputino just trying 736 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:53,440 Speaker 1: to prove apps right to any review apps UH and 737 00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:55,319 Speaker 1: I would walk the halls and I would talk to 738 00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,480 Speaker 1: developers UH, and I realized that was a big missed 739 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,640 Speaker 1: opportunity for us for the app review organization to actually 740 00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:03,840 Speaker 1: sit down and meet with developers. So was that that 741 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:05,520 Speaker 1: next one in two thousand and ten that I said, 742 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:07,880 Speaker 1: we need a room I need I need to be 743 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:10,080 Speaker 1: part of a marketing event or something so we can 744 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:13,920 Speaker 1: start talking to developers. And that became a big room 745 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:17,200 Speaker 1: full of my most senior app reviewers. These were typically 746 00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 1: the ones that would call developers. You got calls from 747 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,200 Speaker 1: these people. All of us got calls from these guys. 748 00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:24,760 Speaker 1: They were the ones that would be able to represent 749 00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:27,239 Speaker 1: the team well and be able to answer questions right, 750 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,600 Speaker 1: because developers love to record app review and try to 751 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,720 Speaker 1: put them on I remember there were some blog posts 752 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:37,279 Speaker 1: were posting the recordings. Hi, this is whoever from Apphole's right, 753 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:39,760 Speaker 1: And you know what I would do. I would download 754 00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 1: all those I would listen to them, and then I'd 755 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 1: bring them to the person that was was talking and 756 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:46,200 Speaker 1: the rest of the team, and I'd say, Okay, here's 757 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:49,000 Speaker 1: how we should handle these calls. Now. It was embarrassing, 758 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,279 Speaker 1: but it was also a teaching moment. I wasn't doing 759 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:53,080 Speaker 1: that to out anyone and so you did a bad job, 760 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:55,040 Speaker 1: It's like, hey, let's learn from this, let's figure out 761 00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:57,799 Speaker 1: how to make this better in the future. So it 762 00:36:57,880 --> 00:36:59,800 Speaker 1: was great to have all these reviewers there and the 763 00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:02,359 Speaker 1: and then I started getting iTunes connect folks in there, 764 00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:04,920 Speaker 1: started getting app store marketing folks into this room, and 765 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:07,719 Speaker 1: so we basically had this big room full of If 766 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:09,480 Speaker 1: you were a developer and you want to come into 767 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:11,640 Speaker 1: our lab. You get answers to all your questions, how 768 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:14,000 Speaker 1: do I get featured? You know, why are you rejecting 769 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,640 Speaker 1: my app for sixteen point one or whatever the guideline was, 770 00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:19,120 Speaker 1: And and we get everyone together to be able to 771 00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:22,520 Speaker 1: help out developers. And so after that point two thousand 772 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:26,440 Speaker 1: ten on dubbed d C was hard. I was in 773 00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:29,600 Speaker 1: the lab every day, but I get pulled into other 774 00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:32,200 Speaker 1: meetings with bigger developers. But mostly I would spend all 775 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:34,760 Speaker 1: my time in the labs trying to solve people's problems. 776 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,480 Speaker 1: And we had laptops there. We could look up exactly 777 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:40,360 Speaker 1: what your problem was and be able to diagnose it 778 00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:42,839 Speaker 1: and tell you specifically what you needed to change this 779 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:45,279 Speaker 1: screen right here right. Stuff that's difficult to do a 780 00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:47,719 Speaker 1: remail or even over a phone call. We could sit 781 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:50,160 Speaker 1: down with the developer and let them know what the 782 00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:52,960 Speaker 1: problems were. This is where it was in these meetings 783 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:56,479 Speaker 1: that some of these developers whose businesses I took down 784 00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:58,200 Speaker 1: would come to me and talk to me, and we 785 00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:02,040 Speaker 1: became friends over time. An amazing turn. Um, well, thank 786 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:05,480 Speaker 1: you so much. This was incredibly fascinating and eye opening. 787 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:08,480 Speaker 1: I feel like we have a real inside peek into 788 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,440 Speaker 1: you know the app store. Well, thank you, this is great, 789 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:16,319 Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you. Felt really appreciate it. And that's 790 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:19,280 Speaker 1: it for this week's episode of Decrypted. Thanks for listening. 791 00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 1: I want to know what you thought about this show 792 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,120 Speaker 1: right to us at Decrypted at Bloomberg dot net or 793 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:26,520 Speaker 1: I'm on Twitter at at Mark German and I'm at 794 00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:29,439 Speaker 1: brad Stone And please help us spread the word about 795 00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:32,040 Speaker 1: our show by leaving us a rating or review wherever 796 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:34,960 Speaker 1: you like to listen to podcasts. This episode was produced 797 00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:38,200 Speaker 1: by Pia good Cary and Lindsay Kraditwill. Our story editor 798 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,120 Speaker 1: was Aki Ito. Thank you also to Ann vander May 799 00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:44,880 Speaker 1: and Emily Us. Francesco Levie is head of Bloomberg Podcasts. 800 00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:46,040 Speaker 1: We'll see you next week.