Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hi, I'm Phil Donahue and I'm Marlowe Thomas, and
Speaker 1: we're going on a series of double dates to find
Speaker 1: out what makes a marriage. Last we were excited for
Speaker 1: our visit with Neil Patrick Harris and David Burka. I mean,
Speaker 1: I certainly was until I got the flu. Yeah, that
Speaker 1: was really too bad. But we couldn't have brought that
Speaker 1: along on our date, so off you went uptown without me.
Speaker 1: It was such a shame. You would have loved their house.
Speaker 1: It's a big, old, beautiful brownstone. You have to go
Speaker 1: up practically twenty steps to get to the front door,
Speaker 1: and it has quite a history. So how old is
Speaker 1: the house? Nineteen o five? Wow, it had been everything
Speaker 1: from a speakeasy for mill workers to music school for
Speaker 1: girls to a single person occupancy. When you think it
Speaker 1: was a brothel, No, I's just wishful. I began to
Speaker 1: wonder where in this five story house would we have
Speaker 1: our talk? So who's the decorator? David has better taste
Speaker 1: than I do, so if we ever have disagreements about interiors,
Speaker 1: it usually comes from a financial standpoint. In that I
Speaker 1: tend to say, dude, we have dogs and two small children.
Speaker 1: We don't need a forty billion dollar rug, So you're
Speaker 1: the sort of decorator and you're the accountant. Then they
Speaker 1: led me into their red velvet screening room with rows
Speaker 1: of cushy theater seats, just like in old Hollywood. What
Speaker 1: a fitting place to chat with these two actors. What
Speaker 1: kind of marriages did your parents sad? My parents were
Speaker 1: together until my mom passed away eleven years ago, and
Speaker 1: your parents. My parents are still married and they've celebrated
Speaker 1: fifty plus years of marriage, so they've always been only
Speaker 1: together with each other. So because you were gay, did
Speaker 1: you think you wouldn't have that? I thought that I
Speaker 1: was going to be alone or single for most of
Speaker 1: my adult life. But I also had a random path
Speaker 1: from adolescence into adulthood because I ended up being on
Speaker 1: a television show when I was fifteen years old, and
Speaker 1: so all free puberty through puberty when you're figuring out
Speaker 1: what turns you on, I felt a bit under a
Speaker 1: microscope of television, and so I didn't have the freedom
Speaker 1: to randomly hit on somebody or go to a bar.
Speaker 1: So I was by myself a lot and had a
Speaker 1: fantas asked a group of friends in Los Angeles who
Speaker 1: knew everything about me. But I just I just wasn't dating.
Speaker 1: I had never even showered with another person until I
Speaker 1: was in my late twenties, so it was all new
Speaker 1: to me. And what about you, David, I you know,
Speaker 1: I didn't know what I wanted until sort of I
Speaker 1: got into a college and then after college, living in
Speaker 1: New York, I, you know, I saw lots of different
Speaker 1: relationships and men having babies already and having a family.
Speaker 1: So I always knew that I was going to settle
Speaker 1: down and be with someone and stay with someone and
Speaker 1: have a family and kids. Once we started dating, we
Speaker 1: never really stopped, So we didn't date lots of people
Speaker 1: while we were dating each other, and then decide we
Speaker 1: just started dating, moved in together, and we've been together
Speaker 1: ever since. The same sex marriage wasn't legal at that time,
Speaker 1: and it seemed like a potential but not an inevitability,
Speaker 1: and so we were more conscientious of what wording we
Speaker 1: used to call each other. I just didn't like the
Speaker 1: word partner for some reason. I just I still think
Speaker 1: that's a very strange way to it eliminates any sense
Speaker 1: of lover. Gay lover sounds only romantic like you're just humping.
Speaker 1: Sounds a little invasive of your life. Eight Then boyfriends
Speaker 1: sounded very juvenile. Boyfriends like I was forty calling Phil
Speaker 1: my boyfriend saticular. Right, it seems like it's short lived,
Speaker 1: like we just met, whence you've been together for years.
Speaker 1: So I just said better half and then and then
Speaker 1: once the marriage thing happened, it happened very quickly. But
Speaker 1: we didn't want to get married because it was suddenly
Speaker 1: allowed to get married. We want to get married to
Speaker 1: get because we wanted to get But you were already
Speaker 1: in a committed relationship, correct, and that was and did
Speaker 1: you had kids? Yeah? I just didn't want to go
Speaker 1: to the courthouse with a with a hundred other people
Speaker 1: and people holding up signs and other people picketing and
Speaker 1: then photographers that I don't want to get married on
Speaker 1: that context. I want to get merride with my family
Speaker 1: right in Italy when it's legal and it's not a
Speaker 1: big deal. The nice thing about a destination wedding is
Speaker 1: you can easily reduce the number of people you can
Speaker 1: invite it. Yeah, it was a very small wedding. It
Speaker 1: was only forty seven people. Yeah, we got married with
Speaker 1: thirty five and it wasn't. It wasn't a great wonderful.
Speaker 1: The nice thing about an Italian wedding or any Italian
Speaker 1: trip is that everything is so delicious there. And what
Speaker 1: was Tuscan Perusia? Yeah, the mountains beautiful? You know. One
Speaker 1: of the things that I've noticed, because we've been married
Speaker 1: forty years. Do you count from the day that you
Speaker 1: started dating or from your wedding? Now we're counting from
Speaker 1: the day we got married. We met three years before then,
Speaker 1: but we knew immediately. I mean we fell in up,
Speaker 1: we went, we went to dinner, we went to bed.
Speaker 1: That was it the same, That's what it was. Because
Speaker 1: we're getting we count from the day over first day, sure,
Speaker 1: because and then you add ten years like a dog
Speaker 1: in gay years. Fifty years we've been together. So how
Speaker 1: did you meet? David got a very coveted role of
Speaker 1: Tulsa in Gypsy that was starring Bernadette Peters and directed
Speaker 1: by Sam Mendez, and it was it was a role
Speaker 1: that every young male actor from the ages of eighteen,
Speaker 1: third and a half they tried to find. We're trying
Speaker 1: to get so David got this covered roll of Tulsa
Speaker 1: and the dainty June in that show as a girl
Speaker 1: named Kate Rinders. And I knew Kate Rinders from LA
Speaker 1: And so I was walking down the street. I was
Speaker 1: doing another show on Broadway. I was the MC in Cabaret,
Speaker 1: and I was walking down the street and I saw Kate.
Speaker 1: We will pass by each other and I said hello,
Speaker 1: And she was with this very study dancer guy in
Speaker 1: a leather jacket, like amazing hair, and I just thought
Speaker 1: that she had a boyfriend that was really hot. I
Speaker 1: told her that. I said, who's a guy that you're dating.
Speaker 1: She said, David. Oh no, he's totally gay. I said, really,
Speaker 1: and then I started stalking him. Oh that's great, So
Speaker 1: how did you what happen? We had similar schedules because
Speaker 1: we were both doing shows all the way. Yeah, we
Speaker 1: would and he would show up at different places. Kate
Speaker 1: would say, Oh, we're going this place tonight, and then
Speaker 1: Neil would be there at the bar. What is going on?
Speaker 1: This guy is looking at him. I had a boyfriend
Speaker 1: at the time and things weren't going so well, and
Speaker 1: then we finally broke up, and then I gave this
Speaker 1: guy a date. I was like, I was circling like
Speaker 1: some sort of ulture waiting for them. But when I
Speaker 1: when I met him, first met him, he looked very strange.
Speaker 1: He had jet black hair and he had was very
Speaker 1: white and blue blue eyes, so he didn't necessarily look
Speaker 1: like Neil, So I mean, he was still handsome, but
Speaker 1: it wasn't like true I was in the character because
Speaker 1: DMC was Wimer Germany. So my armpits were dyed black,
Speaker 1: my hair was dyed black, my eyebrows were dyed black. Wow,
Speaker 1: so I and my my skin colors pretty pale. So
Speaker 1: I looked like a vampire a bit. But then I
Speaker 1: had you come with Kate to see the show, and
Speaker 1: that was a very sexy version of Cabaret. If you
Speaker 1: remember Alan coming did it originally with Natasha Richardson, And
Speaker 1: it's walking around and sitting in people's laps in the
Speaker 1: audience and making out with the cast members. Yeah, it was.
Speaker 1: It was. I played the whole show to him, and
Speaker 1: look where I got there. You got yourself a mate.
Speaker 1: So then it started. And then it started, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: And we lived in New York for a couple of months,
Speaker 1: and then we made the move to Los Angeles and
Speaker 1: it was nine years in LA isn't it? Well? It
Speaker 1: was it amazing though, because I'm now that I'm thinking
Speaker 1: about this. We talked about being in the same industry
Speaker 1: and how that has its complications, But I don't think
Speaker 1: we would have connected in otherwise because we both had
Speaker 1: the same schedule, so we would all be hanging out
Speaker 1: at the same time post show ten o'clock where everyone
Speaker 1: will be out having drinks. So it's easy to connect
Speaker 1: then and all day just to go bike riding and
Speaker 1: do stuff in Central Park and hang out turn a
Speaker 1: day because we have to work till the nighttime, right,
Speaker 1: and then we got to see each other in our shows,
Speaker 1: so you know we got it's always a turnout. Yeah,
Speaker 1: talent as a turnout, we'll have more. After a quick break,
Speaker 1: we're back to Marlowe's interview with Neil Patrick Harris and
Speaker 1: David Burka. With two hot guys in one marriage, I
Speaker 1: want to know if either of them was the jealous type.
Speaker 1: M me. I think me. I can have a bit
Speaker 1: of jealousy streak in my body. I get very protective
Speaker 1: if guys are, you know, trying to make a move
Speaker 1: on him or rarely, please, did we know couples that
Speaker 1: have open relationships? I would just be worried all the time,
Speaker 1: like who is he with? And what am I not doing?
Speaker 1: And who? Why can't you know? Am I not good enough?
Speaker 1: And so I'd go crazy if there was an open relationship,
Speaker 1: I'd you hire a private detective and I'd figure out
Speaker 1: where he's going. Sicilian No, I'm polish, um, but I
Speaker 1: think that I would, you know, tap his phone. It
Speaker 1: would be hard for me. Was that a discussion. When
Speaker 1: we started dating, our sex life was so strong and
Speaker 1: it maintained itself that three years. It was for long
Speaker 1: enough that that that the idea of opening up the relationship.
Speaker 1: We spent all of our time together all the time,
Speaker 1: so it wasn't a relationship of convenience. When gay guys
Speaker 1: weren't able to be out publicly and stand so tall
Speaker 1: and be so proud of who they were, they had
Speaker 1: to pretend that they were someone else, and therefore promiscuity
Speaker 1: was understood because they weren't able to tell anyone and
Speaker 1: they were they were having sex on the sly. But
Speaker 1: now it's there's a normalization to it, and I think
Speaker 1: now in the same way guys would cheat on each
Speaker 1: other if they're two guys. There's still an old adage
Speaker 1: that a guy that has a wife has a piece
Speaker 1: on the side, or a mistress or I mean, I
Speaker 1: think historically that's I don't think that that's unique to
Speaker 1: two gentlemen. I's a lot of the loop though, too.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know, there's the grinder and gruff
Speaker 1: and bumble and all these true we don't I don't.
Speaker 1: I mean, so many people are on these apps in
Speaker 1: there that's very sing left or right. I don't know
Speaker 1: what it is that's true. We started dating before any
Speaker 1: of that miss that whole generation. It's a whole different thing. Like,
Speaker 1: but when you're with somebody who's well known, there's a
Speaker 1: that's an aphrodisiac of its own. So people come on
Speaker 1: to you because you're you know, you're somebody famous and
Speaker 1: that's exciting, right, yeah, right. And there's also there's also
Speaker 1: a bit of me being an actor and also having
Speaker 1: the jealousy of hey, well what about me? Because he
Speaker 1: gets a lot of attention, a lot of attention like
Speaker 1: oh I'm here too, you know that, not give me
Speaker 1: the eye contact or like brushing aside or oh you're
Speaker 1: nice too. This is what true To and Sting talked about.
Speaker 1: If they all talk about that. So how do you
Speaker 1: deal with that? What do you do? Do you demand
Speaker 1: something more from him? How does that work? Because that's
Speaker 1: true in every field. If you're the CEO of a company,
Speaker 1: you're gonna get all the attention and the spouses. Sometimes
Speaker 1: I feel like I say, behind, every great man is
Speaker 1: a great partner, it's a great mate. And then you know,
Speaker 1: I should feel happy and honored that he's sharing his
Speaker 1: time with me. And then other times I'm super upset
Speaker 1: and annoyed and I sort of just stop my feet
Speaker 1: and say, hey, you know, I need some attention here.
Speaker 1: And then what do you do when he does that?
Speaker 1: I give him attention. That's easy. It was also even
Speaker 1: more challenging both being actors, and so I think it
Speaker 1: sometimes it is more the emotions more on the sleeve,
Speaker 1: because I'm sharing with him good news of some job
Speaker 1: opportunity in the same field that he wishes the opportunity
Speaker 1: was his own. And that's understandable. And weren't two guys, yes,
Speaker 1: and we're the same sex, which which amplifies it as well.
Speaker 1: You know, I was working as an actor in New
Speaker 1: York for a really long time and we decided to
Speaker 1: move to Los Angeles. When Neil got a show in
Speaker 1: LA called How I Met Your Mother, and I wasn't
Speaker 1: having the best of time in LA but we stuck
Speaker 1: it out because he was doing a job there. So
Speaker 1: you know, you make choices to be with the person
Speaker 1: that you love. That was sort of the main thing
Speaker 1: I think, taking a backseat to my career a bit. Yet,
Speaker 1: such a weird industry as actors, because you're only kind
Speaker 1: of as good as your next random job that you get.
Speaker 1: There's no job security in acting. You can be on
Speaker 1: a television show for seven years and then when the
Speaker 1: show's canceled, you're just auditioning again. It's not like you
Speaker 1: have tenure, and so it's a little bit complicated. But
Speaker 1: David has additional skill sets beyond acting, and so one
Speaker 1: of the things that came from a tenure in Los
Speaker 1: Angeles is that you find other things that you can
Speaker 1: do that don't require someone to tell you that you
Speaker 1: got the job. And David went to Lacom dying and
Speaker 1: it was fast. It was a fast twenty days in
Speaker 1: hospital leukemia, and I just thought, I can't be in
Speaker 1: Los Angeles and be depressed and go out for auditions
Speaker 1: that I didn't want to do anyway, And so I
Speaker 1: went to Lacourt on Blue and became a chef and
Speaker 1: just started working right away. And then when did the
Speaker 1: kids come? He got together in what year? We've been
Speaker 1: fift together? Fifteen? They're eight now, right, so that would
Speaker 1: be six seven. It was recently after my mom died
Speaker 1: eleven years ago. We looked at each other and said,
Speaker 1: life's too short. We gotta have kids now, because my
Speaker 1: mom really wanted just kids and Wally wanted grandkids, and
Speaker 1: so we thought, you know, we can't wait anymore. Let's
Speaker 1: just start the process of having a surrogate and eck donors.
Speaker 1: Having kids is a real game changer. And when you're
Speaker 1: two guys, you don't accidentally get pregnant as much as
Speaker 1: we tried, so we you know, that's not really an
Speaker 1: option unless you make it an actual reality. I'm on
Speaker 1: a TV show, so we're making nice money, and so
Speaker 1: let's do it. One of the things I believe the
Speaker 1: strongest is that when same sex couples want to have kids,
Speaker 1: it's because they've really thought it through, because you can't
Speaker 1: accidentally do it. I said that in jest, but there's
Speaker 1: a lot of truth to that, and so therefore, when
Speaker 1: we have kids, we're ready for it. We didn't go no,
Speaker 1: what's happening? Are we? Are? We gonna do this? It's
Speaker 1: funny when people think that gay people shouldn't have kids.
Speaker 1: I mean, they have to go through so many hoops
Speaker 1: and someone who's really thought about it having kids, and
Speaker 1: someone who really takes the time to do it. So
Speaker 1: what did that do to the love nest? Oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: it was rough. It was rough, and I have to
Speaker 1: say for the first five years, I wasn't sure it's
Speaker 1: gonna work out. I thought that were really rocky roads,
Speaker 1: Like I didn't know if I could be a dad
Speaker 1: and be a husband at the same time. It pulled
Speaker 1: us apart, and yet it brought It brings you together, Yes,
Speaker 1: because you're having to do things once you have kids.
Speaker 1: It's much harder to just say that's it, I'm out.
Speaker 1: And yet you also have no time to say, let's
Speaker 1: stay up all night and drink and connect for till
Speaker 1: four o'clock in mark. All you want to do is
Speaker 1: get a little bit of rest and how do you
Speaker 1: say romantic and find that time when you have little children.
Speaker 1: I'd like to know. I'd like to read your book
Speaker 1: and find out we make we make concerted efforts to connect.
Speaker 1: We'll have date nights. Date nights are staycase, or we
Speaker 1: try to go on vacation together, parlay a couple of days,
Speaker 1: or one or two days before after if we're traveling
Speaker 1: for business. An afternoon sex is underrated when the kids
Speaker 1: are not on from school yet. Wait ten minutes. You're
Speaker 1: waiting until everyone goes to sleep to have sex. You're
Speaker 1: gonna be a sleep or sex. You're all so excited
Speaker 1: during the day. Tonight it's going to happen tonight. Your
Speaker 1: world is going to be rockeding. This is right. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think for those that are looking to get married,
Speaker 1: if if you're if you're coming at it with the
Speaker 1: rigidity of what we have right now. We want to
Speaker 1: maintain this feeling that we have right now. It doesn't
Speaker 1: stay that way because when you have sex with the
Speaker 1: same person over and over, it gets redundant, and then
Speaker 1: you can try different things sort of, but then it
Speaker 1: changes and then you don't like each other and suddenly
Speaker 1: you're not attracted to them, and then you have to
Speaker 1: figure out how to be reattracted them, but in a
Speaker 1: different way because you're aging. And then you have to figure.
Speaker 1: Then you're suddenly figure you're in love with like their
Speaker 1: soul more than their body. But then you get in
Speaker 1: love with their body again. It's just it's more, it's
Speaker 1: it morphs, and I think, I think acknowledge that is
Speaker 1: tenuous and kind of dangerous because what does that mean.
Speaker 1: But in a weird way, we keep falling in love
Speaker 1: with each other in different ways over and over, and
Speaker 1: I think that keeps our sex life alive because it's
Speaker 1: not just we're not trying to continue to do what
Speaker 1: we did and then it's not going. Well, why what's happening? Oh,
Speaker 1: there's no connection. We're trying, We're trying to do it,
Speaker 1: but it's not working. So I'm out, Like I feel
Speaker 1: like some people do that. What I've noticed in my friends,
Speaker 1: on our friends, some people don't know how to come
Speaker 1: back from a bad situation, whether it's infidelity or a
Speaker 1: fight or whatever. Either they don't know how to talk
Speaker 1: to each other, or there's their anger is so a
Speaker 1: manswa they would hold. So how do you fight? I
Speaker 1: think we just blurt out what we have to say
Speaker 1: and we say it. There's a good thing, and there's
Speaker 1: a bad part about that too, But we don't hold
Speaker 1: anything in. We're actors too, so we can read your
Speaker 1: face like there's something wrong with them. I know immediately
Speaker 1: right what's going on. If you don't communicate, you're going
Speaker 1: to build up assumptions and you're going to have resentments,
Speaker 1: and I think that's more corrosive than anything. So the
Speaker 1: lines of communications deserve to be open. Will they be
Speaker 1: fiery and messy, of course, But we've seen couples that
Speaker 1: pretended everything's fine when it's not, and then it feels
Speaker 1: like it becomes this chasm exists, and then there's so
Speaker 1: much unsaid that when it gets so bad, there's so
Speaker 1: much to say that you don't even know where to begin.
Speaker 1: So we see a couple's counselor and have done so
Speaker 1: weekly for most of our entire time together, like our
Speaker 1: fifteen years. Why did you do that? That's great to know.
Speaker 1: Friends of ours said, you should. You should see a
Speaker 1: couple's counselor together before anything's wrong, so that you develop
Speaker 1: skills to communicate and develop ways to be honest around
Speaker 1: each other before it's bad, so that the idea of
Speaker 1: going to see a therapist together isn't because it's a
Speaker 1: last resort we go and see everything, we talk about
Speaker 1: all kinds of stuff. That's been really helpful because we
Speaker 1: know that for that hour or two hours that we're
Speaker 1: meeting him, we're there to work. It's work. So good
Speaker 1: to take a moment you're in conflict, just go to
Speaker 1: your corners for a minute. You're not in the headspace
Speaker 1: to say, you know what, I'm all reacting. You're right.
Speaker 1: Is there something that you've noticed about yourself or about
Speaker 1: him that has changed? Oh? Yeah, for the last three years,
Speaker 1: I've been sober, so I don't drink any alcohol. So
Speaker 1: that's helped a lot because that sort of not only
Speaker 1: made me more depressed, but it also made me more
Speaker 1: heightened to want to start a fight, or be more right,
Speaker 1: or be more headstrong. So that's been a big change.
Speaker 1: Did you do that because Neil asked you to? No. No,
Speaker 1: there's some substance abuse in my family, and I think
Speaker 1: that I owed it to myself and I owed it
Speaker 1: to my kids. It's one of the things I'm just
Speaker 1: deeply proud about David is his determination to do that.
Speaker 1: It's a very hard, complicated decision, but it never got
Speaker 1: to the point where I was I was in jail
Speaker 1: or harmed an armed myself. My bottom was not bad,
Speaker 1: but it was bad enough that I needed to change.
Speaker 1: I could persevere anything and I would still be with him.
Speaker 1: He's an amazing parent. And I think what makes what
Speaker 1: makes me love David is the depth of flavor, is
Speaker 1: of the the amount of roots that have been planted
Speaker 1: where you can't control where they go. And that's why
Speaker 1: it's fun, because it's always changing. You know. Well, we
Speaker 1: realize that we did do make certain decisions about things
Speaker 1: to change. I learned that I wasn't a very good
Speaker 1: listener and that when Phil had a problem, and it
Speaker 1: took about ten years, and one day he was telling
Speaker 1: me something. It was very troublesome for him, and he
Speaker 1: stopped in the middle, niece and please don't say anything.
Speaker 1: Don't tell me anything. And the thing that bothered him
Speaker 1: is that I'm a fixer. So if somebody gives me
Speaker 1: a problem, I'm going for the phone. So I had
Speaker 1: to learn I know I can do this, but this
Speaker 1: isn't the way to do this with another person. Good point,
Speaker 1: I'm not, you know, And he one day he said
Speaker 1: to me, stop producing me. I can do it. And
Speaker 1: it was big. I think in a relationship. We could
Speaker 1: all afford to just go with the flow a little
Speaker 1: bit if you missed the flight, and if the other
Speaker 1: person is to blame, there's no need to blame them.
Speaker 1: Here you are, you missed the flight. Now you can
Speaker 1: stay at the airport for a couple more hours. We
Speaker 1: spent a lot of time in our relationship coming up
Speaker 1: with individual expectations of how the party's gonna go, how
Speaker 1: the vacation's going to go, how tonight's gonna go, how
Speaker 1: how that phone call is going to go. And it's
Speaker 1: rarely met. And you can be bothered by being inaccurate
Speaker 1: in your expectations, or you can just go with a
Speaker 1: new outcome. No, I think expectations is huge. What do
Speaker 1: you see that makes the marriage last? And maybe it's
Speaker 1: just the expectation thing, which is really better said than
Speaker 1: anybody is said. Laughter. I would have going to say
Speaker 1: laughter and see I really was, really is. I think
Speaker 1: that that's part of the reason, one of the main
Speaker 1: reasons we've been stayed together, because we just make each
Speaker 1: other laugh all the time. He makes me laugh so much,
Speaker 1: vice versa. And that's Neil Patrick Harris and his husband
Speaker 1: David Burke. I sure wish I'd been there for that.
Speaker 1: I do too, you would have loved them, Ungil. Next time,
Speaker 1: I'm Marlow, Thomas Old, Donahue. It doesn't even have to
Speaker 1: be this, s Churchill said, every time you make someone laugh,
Speaker 1: you give them a mini vacation. And I just always
Speaker 1: loved that. This was great. Thank you. I really enjoyed
Speaker 1: Double Day. There's a production of Pushkin Industries. The show
Speaker 1: was created by US and produced by Sarah Lilly. Michael
Speaker 1: Bahari is associate producer. Musical adaptations of It Had to
Speaker 1: Be You by Stellwagen, Symfinette, Marlo and I are executive producers,
Speaker 1: along with Mia Lobell and Letal Molad from Pushkin. Special
Speaker 1: thanks to Jacob Wiseberg, Malcolm Gladwell, Heather Faine, John Snars,
Speaker 1: Carly Migliori, Eric Sandler, Emily Rostak, Jason Gambrel, Paul Williams,
Speaker 1: and Bruce Kluger. If you like our show, please remember
Speaker 1: to share, rate, and review. Thanks for listening.