1 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:14,240 Speaker 1: Diversion podcasts. A note this episode contains descriptions of graphic 2 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: violence and scenes of genocide. Listener's discretion is advised. Herbert 3 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: Zuker's The Butcher of Latvia, had made a terrible mistake. 4 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:37,919 Speaker 1: He'd agreed to be profiled in a major Brazilian magazine, Okrauzero. 5 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 1: The article called from the Baltics to Brazil hit newsstands. 6 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 1: J I wanted to talk to someone who could put 7 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: this article in context for me, someone who could explain 8 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 1: Zuker's popularity and has adopted home of Brazil. I am 9 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 1: Dr saraphile To. I am a visiting assistant professor currently 10 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 1: at the Ackerman Center for Holocaust Studies at the University 11 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 1: of Texas at Dallas. Dr Valenti studies the legacy of 12 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:13,400 Speaker 1: World War Two in the Holocaust in Brazil. In other words, 13 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 1: she definitely studies Herbert Sukers. I asked Dr Valenti about 14 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: this magazine article. Suckers allowed himself to be interviewed for 15 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 1: She explained how it completely whitewashes Zuker's Nazi passed. The 16 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 1: article talks about the family story, how they were poor 17 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 1: war refugees. It identifies them as war refugees who all 18 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 1: of the sudden four years are not massively successful. It 19 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: talks about his beautiful Arian children literally against the backdrop 20 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 1: of the famous sugirl of mountains of Rio de Janato, 21 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 1: and this article really praises him and how quickly it says, 22 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 1: you know, a family from Latvia flees from the horrors 23 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 1: of war lands in Rio on Carnival Sunday, sells a 24 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 1: small camera and rebuilds their future. It was five pages long, 25 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 1: and it showed the beautiful life that the Zuker's family 26 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 1: had carved out for themselves since leaving Latvia and settling 27 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: in Rio. The Zookers, they look like actors in the 28 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties speech movie. One of the things that really resonates, 29 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:20,080 Speaker 1: especially when we see the descriptions of the children and 30 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:23,799 Speaker 1: the photographs of the children, especially the photograph of the daughter. 31 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:27,079 Speaker 1: She has this kind of little bikini top on and 32 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 1: she's this beautiful girl with blond hair. The family is quite, 33 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:35,239 Speaker 1: you know, physically, esthetically speaking, beautiful, right. There is something 34 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: that is desirable about their look, their ability to raise 35 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 1: themselves up, and they're great contributions to the country. And 36 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 1: the description is very much this idea of you know, 37 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 1: these are the kinds of people we want in this country. 38 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: Herbert Sukers came across as a go getter who built 39 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 1: up a nice business from nothing. He is described as 40 00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 1: this embodiment of tenacity, this very industrious man who is 41 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 1: bringing new type of technology for water skiing, which is 42 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 1: something that Brazilians had only seen in films at that time, 43 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 1: and here he is creating this kind of new recreational sport. 44 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: But the article went further. It said that Zukers should 45 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:21,679 Speaker 1: be an inspiration. Here was a guy who would face 46 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 1: war and exile, gone through extreme poverty, and yet was 47 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: succeeding when all seems lost. The story read the human 48 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 1: species can find within itself the same energies and ability 49 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 1: to forget the past and reshape its own destiny. It 50 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 1: was such a great story. Who was going to prove 51 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 1: it wrong? Well? By this time, years after World War Two, 52 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 1: it was a small group of Nazi hunters who were 53 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 1: on Suckers trail. They knew he was a monster, but 54 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: they had to prove bit. What if they announced the 55 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 1: world that they'd located the statistic killer, the Butcher of Latvia, 56 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 1: and then found out it was the wrong guy. It 57 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 1: would set the entire cause back, would be a blow 58 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:16,479 Speaker 1: to Jewish activists everywhere, It would be a disaster. They 59 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 1: had to be right. I'm Stephen Talty and this is 60 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 1: good assassin's hunting the butcher. So the first was so 61 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 1: fine and not end moving forwards, rival the second promine 62 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 1: and large killing. We must thwart this shameful pass, the 63 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: end of a trail of blood and horror, the end 64 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:53,719 Speaker 1: of a man whose name will be written in information 65 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 1: every step but to be closer to Joker stock And 66 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 1: it was the inevitive, be face to face and counts. 67 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: Episode three, The Man of one Hundred Identities. I don't 68 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 1: know if you're a fan of the nine movie Marathon Man, 69 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:22,479 Speaker 1: but it's one of my favorites. It's about an escape 70 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: Nazi played by the famous British actor Lawrence Olivier, who 71 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:29,039 Speaker 1: comes to New York years after the war to retrieve 72 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 1: some diamonds. Of course, he's terrified being discovered and arrested 73 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:36,359 Speaker 1: or even killed, so he goes to great lengths to 74 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:41,839 Speaker 1: ensure that he won't be identified. There's a famous scene 75 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 1: where Olivier's character tortures the young Dustin Hoffman, who plays 76 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 1: the brother of a ci age. The Nazi asked him 77 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 1: over and over, is it safe? Is it safe? It's 78 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:58,279 Speaker 1: one of the great thriller scenes. If you haven't watched it, 79 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:02,159 Speaker 1: you owe it to yourself to check it out. But 80 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 1: Marathon Man also makes an interesting point that relates to 81 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:09,920 Speaker 1: our story. Why is this escaped Nazi character so afraid 82 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:13,840 Speaker 1: of exposing himself? In part, it's because he's in New 83 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 1: York City and he has to go to the neighborhood 84 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 1: known as the Diamond District. The Diamond District is where 85 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 1: thousands of Jewish merchants work even today. In the seventies, 86 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:26,279 Speaker 1: which is when the movie set, it would have been 87 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:31,040 Speaker 1: hundreds of Holocaust survivors there. That's why Olivier's character is 88 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 1: afraid because in a time before the Internet or Google 89 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 1: or social media, the best way of identifying an escape 90 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 1: Nazi was through an eye witness, someone who knew him, 91 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:45,040 Speaker 1: someone who could recognize him. For Nazi on the run, 92 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 1: New York was one of the most dangerous cities in 93 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: the world because people there would remember his face and 94 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:59,599 Speaker 1: those people do all the terrible things he'd done. So 95 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 1: in the vie, the Nazi gets the Diamonds and he's 96 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:05,600 Speaker 1: walking down the street. He's feeling good. Then an older 97 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 1: woman spots him. She can't believe what she's seeing, this 98 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 1: monster actually right in front of her. It's like a 99 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 1: memory from a different world. She starts screaming his name. 100 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 1: She follows him, shouting and calling for help, and he 101 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 1: almost gets caught. But this is the difference between the 102 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 1: Diamond District in New York City and Rio, where Zukers 103 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 1: was living at the time. There was a significant Jewish 104 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 1: community in Rio, some of whom Zukers had already met, 105 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 1: but very few Holocaust survivors and almost none from Latvia. 106 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 1: From seven to nineteen fifty, Brazil had a secret policy 107 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:46,559 Speaker 1: that denied visas to Jews fleeing Hitler. It turned away 108 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 1: sixteen thousand requests Jewish refugees who wanted to immigrate there. 109 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 1: The reason simple anti Semitism. This secret policy cut down 110 00:07:57,160 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 1: on the numbers who eventually were able to make it 111 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 1: to Brazil. That's why the magazine article was such a mistake, 112 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 1: because Okra zero was distributed far and wide, not only 113 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 1: in Brazil but across South America, and the right people 114 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 1: saw it. Or from Zuker's point of view, the wrong people. 115 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 1: But before Zukers could be placed on a list, and 116 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 1: before Massad and Mio could begin to track him down, 117 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 1: zukers pursuers had to be sure he was the right guy. 118 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 1: Was this really the Butcher of Latvia? Maybe there was 119 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 1: another Herbert Sukers. We had nothing to do with the Nazis. 120 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:39,560 Speaker 1: Maybe he was innocent. That was problem number one. Problem 121 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 1: number two had to do with other people. By the 122 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 1: early fifties, the world was starting to lose interests in 123 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 1: Nazi war criminals. The few survivors and activists who saw 124 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 1: the magazine article and thought this might be the Butcher 125 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:56,839 Speaker 1: contacted the authorities. They wrote the British Foreign Office, who 126 00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: had prosecuted war criminals from Latvia. The British basically blew 127 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 1: them off. The Cold War was underway, the Brits needed 128 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:07,440 Speaker 1: the Germans as allies. They were tired of the whole 129 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 1: issue of the Holocaust. They wanted to move on. There 130 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 1: were a small group of Jewish activists who didn't want 131 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 1: to move on. They couldn't forget what they'd seen during 132 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 1: the war. They dedicated their lives to finding people like 133 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 1: the Butcher. These men and women were scattered around the 134 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 1: globe New York, Vienna, Tel Aviv. A few of them 135 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:35,440 Speaker 1: were famous. Simon Wiesenthal, the legendary Nazi hunter, was the 136 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: most famous. That many were anonymous. Beginning in the mid 137 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 1: nineteen forties, they spent their time writing letters to survivors, 138 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:48,560 Speaker 1: poring over archives, searching for clues. One committee of these 139 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 1: Nazi hunters tried to get the Russians interested in the butcher. 140 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 1: After all, Russia had taken over lab Via after the war, 141 00:09:55,520 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: surely they would do something. But the Russians said that 142 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: the nation of Latvia no longer existed, so they couldn't 143 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 1: prosecute anyone who committed crimes there. They washed their hands 144 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 1: of the whole deal. So even if the Nazi hunters 145 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 1: proved this guy in Brazil was the butcher, so what 146 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 1: who was going to do something about it? The hunters 147 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 1: decided to cross that bridge when they got to it. 148 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 1: First they had to I D. Suckers confirmed he was 149 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 1: the butcher. Then they would find someone to do something 150 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: about it. But again, no Google, no camera phones, how 151 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 1: do you confirm this is the guy? So this is 152 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 1: how they did it. Step one, they had to get 153 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 1: photos of Herbert Suckers before the war. That was the 154 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: starting point. But how a young man named Joseph Schneider 155 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 1: went to the central Library in Riga, the capital of Latvia. 156 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:54,440 Speaker 1: We don't know a lot about Schneider. He may have 157 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 1: been part of a Nazi hunter network, or he may 158 00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:58,559 Speaker 1: have been asked to do a favor for a friend. 159 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 1: In any case, he went to the aviation section and 160 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 1: started going through the newspaper archives. This was Herbert Suckers 161 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 1: Achilles Heel. Most Nazis had been anonymous before the war, 162 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:14,680 Speaker 1: but Suckers had been a publicity hound. He loved the attention, 163 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 1: so the young researcher started coming across articles on this 164 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 1: brilliant young aviator. And along with the articles were photos. 165 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 1: Here's Herbert Suckers in a leather coat. Is one of 166 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 1: him in profile, smiling and smiling in a plane outside 167 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:36,200 Speaker 1: the plane. There were tons of pictures. Great, but one problem. 168 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:38,839 Speaker 1: There were no xerox machines, not only in the regal 169 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 1: library but anywhere. They weren't on the market yet, and 170 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 1: the photos had to be copied so they could be 171 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:49,560 Speaker 1: compared to ones with the guy in rio. Schneider knew this. 172 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:53,439 Speaker 1: He came prepared. In his hand, he held a small 173 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 1: razor blade, and when the librarian wasn't looking, he bent 174 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 1: down and started cutting first one article, then the next. 175 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: He chose the ones with the clearest photos, and when 176 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 1: he was done, he brought the bomb newspapers back to 177 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 1: the desk. Then he walked out. In his pocket was 178 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 1: the crucial evidence. Okay, step one was a success. They 179 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:18,559 Speaker 1: had a baseline photos of the man they knew to 180 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:21,440 Speaker 1: be Herbert Suckers. Now they needed pictures of the guy 181 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: in Rio. If the two matched, they had their man. 182 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 1: This part was a little harder. The Nazi hunters wrote 183 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 1: their contexts. In Brazil, a young man named Victor that's 184 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 1: all we know about him his first name, agreed to 185 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 1: try to get a current photo of Zukers. He went 186 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 1: to the dock where the man from the magazine article 187 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:46,320 Speaker 1: was working. He asked the guy, who was wearing an 188 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:48,440 Speaker 1: old captain's hat, if you could take him and his 189 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:51,559 Speaker 1: friend on a boat tour of the lake. The man agreed, 190 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 1: so Victor and his friend and this man who was 191 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 1: maybe Herbert Suckers got into the boat. Victory had brought 192 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: along a camera, naturally, and he started taking shots of 193 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 1: the scenery, water, skiers, sailors, he clicked whenever he saw 194 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 1: something interesting, and then he turned and tried to get 195 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 1: a shot of the mystery man and the captain sat 196 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 1: but no, the guy was jumpy. Whenever Victor pointed the 197 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:18,440 Speaker 1: camera in his direction, he would duck down, or turn 198 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 1: his head or look away. Victor could not believe it. 199 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:24,679 Speaker 1: He was taking all these photos and he hadn't gotten 200 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 1: a single decent shot of the guy. He always tried 201 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 1: to hide his face, he later said. Finally, Victor took 202 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 1: a few last shots as the boat returned to the dock. 203 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:36,959 Speaker 1: Once he had left the marina, Victor brought the roles 204 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 1: of film to be developed, and he waited. When the 205 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 1: photos were ready, he picked them up and they were 206 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 1: pretty much as he thought, disappointing, but he sent them 207 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 1: off to the Nazi hunters anyway. He said if they 208 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:51,679 Speaker 1: weren't good enough, he'd go back to the dock, this 209 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 1: time with a movie camera. The Nazi hunters got the photos, 210 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 1: he sorted through them and found one they thought might work. 211 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 1: It showed and Supers in profile as he was ducking 212 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:05,679 Speaker 1: down to avoid the camera. Not ideal, but worth a shot. 213 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 1: The team took Victor's photo and put it next to 214 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 1: one from the Regal Library, and they compared. Within a 215 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 1: few minutes they had an answer. The man in the 216 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 1: Captain's hat and the Latvian Lindburg were the same man. 217 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: They found the Butcher of Latvia. M h. If you're 218 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 1: this far into the story, we're assuming you're enjoying Hunting 219 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 1: the Butcher. If you're listening on Apple podcasts, would you 220 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 1: be able to take a minute to give the show 221 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 1: a rating and a review. Just find the show's page 222 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts, scrolled down to the section called Ratings 223 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 1: and Reviews and tap one of those purple stars to 224 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:52,840 Speaker 1: give it a rating. Then tapped a little purple link 225 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 1: that says write a review and leave a few words 226 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 1: about what you think of Hunting the Butcher. It really 227 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 1: helps get the word out and let other listeners know 228 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 1: about the podcast. Much appreciated. Now on with the show, 229 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 1: an organization called the World Jewish Congress announced that the 230 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 1: Butcher of Latvia had been found was living in Brazil, 231 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 1: and despite the growing indifference towards the hunt for Nazis, 232 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 1: it had an effect. There were headlines in Brazilian newspapers. 233 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 1: Sucre's business was ruined. He had to move several times 234 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 1: to avoid angry protesters. Eventually he ended up in the 235 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 1: city of sal Paolo, running another small boat rental business. 236 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 1: This was not what Sucers had imagined for himself. His 237 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 1: dreams of building a glorious new life in Brazil. They've 238 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 1: been shattered. The Jews had seen to that. He was bitter, paranoid, 239 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 1: and lonely, but he was still free. The efforts of 240 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: the Nazi hunters had failed. They tried to get governments 241 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 1: around the world to pay attention. They'd lobbied Brazil to 242 00:15:56,320 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: deport him. They'd asked America and Great Britain get involved. 243 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 1: Nothing had worked. So in the mid sixties, Zukers was 244 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 1: holding his own He still hoped for a grand third 245 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 1: act of his life. He believed in himself. He just 246 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 1: had to convince the world that he'd been misunderstood in 247 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 1: order to get all the fame and the money back. 248 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 1: That was the dream. We found some incredible tapes from 249 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 1: a man named Jack Anderson. Anderson was a legendary and 250 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 1: controversial investigative reporter who died in two thousand five. Anderson's 251 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 1: papers resided at George Washington University, and his personal archive 252 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 1: of recordings have just recently been on sealed. This will 253 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 1: be the first time anyone has heard these tapes, and 254 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: they're striking. I'm an American newspaper man that just want 255 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 1: to be interested in talking to some of these Nazis 256 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 1: and hearing their side of the story. Anderson traveled to 257 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:04,919 Speaker 1: Brazil in nineteen sixty to track down Nazi fugitives for 258 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: an article he eventually published in Parade magazine, and that 259 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 1: was his cover. Occurred to me that if they found Aikman, 260 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 1: there are probably other war criminals down there in hiding. 261 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:18,359 Speaker 1: In fact, I knew there were other war criminals, and 262 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 1: I thought it might even be possible to find a few. 263 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:23,360 Speaker 1: And I thought it would be a great story for Parade. 264 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 1: So told Parade I was gonna go down and look 265 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 1: for him. It sounds unbelievable to just hop on a 266 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 1: plane and go interview Nazis, but Anderson was good at 267 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 1: his job, and he met a crucial contact at the 268 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 1: airport immediately upon his arrival. I felt that there was 269 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 1: a stroke of luck, and if I do say so myself, 270 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 1: good reporting that I got him in a hurry. I 271 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 1: just sold him on the idea that I was a 272 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:49,679 Speaker 1: friendly newspaper man who would like to talk to some 273 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:56,439 Speaker 1: of them. He got talking, he explained how they operated. Mario, 274 00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 1: as I remember, was his name. His first name you're 275 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 1: taking wasn't his real name. He had taken on a 276 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:07,200 Speaker 1: Brazilian name, had been a major in the s s 277 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:13,640 Speaker 1: and Uh was living a different life now as a 278 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 1: airline employee. This lower level management guy, Anderson wanted a 279 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 1: big exclusive and he came prepared. Before his trip. He 280 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:27,680 Speaker 1: contacted Simon Wiesenthal, and Visenthal sent him reams of research 281 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:30,880 Speaker 1: on all the Nazi fugitives he thought might be living there. 282 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 1: But Anderson was focused, and he made a list of 283 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:38,359 Speaker 1: the most infamous Nazis still at large. He wanted to 284 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 1: find the next Aikman, and this man he was sitting with, 285 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 1: Mario seemed to know them all. Told me about Mangle. 286 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:48,879 Speaker 1: He knew all about Mangley, but he said after the 287 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 1: kidnapping him Mangley was in Buenos Aires in Argentina, and 288 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:57,639 Speaker 1: new right where he was said that he had fled 289 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 1: though after the Aikemen kidnapping. That was after the big ones, 290 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 1: and and he wasn't very helpful on any of the 291 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 1: big ones. They were either inaccessible or they had disappeared 292 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 1: after the Aikman had scared them all into hiding. He 293 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 1: said that they had a ring of a rather loose 294 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 1: association of kind of co conspirators, people who were in 295 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 1: the same boat and therefore helped one another. And then 296 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 1: he told me about He said they had hideout deep 297 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 1: in Brazil where they would go when they felt threatened 298 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,199 Speaker 1: when they were on the run. Anderson was hitting a 299 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 1: wall after the very high profile kidnapping and trial of Aikman. 300 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 1: Ex Nazis were more paranoid than ever. After all, they 301 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 1: weren't hiding. It made sense that they wouldn't want to 302 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 1: talk to a quote unquote American newspaperman, no matter how 303 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 1: friendly he claimed to be. But there was this one 304 00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 1: Nazi Mario brought up who sounded different from the rest. 305 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:04,880 Speaker 1: This Nazi wasn't on Anderson's radar and his name didn't 306 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: even ring a bell. That led him to tell me 307 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:13,440 Speaker 1: about Suckers, who had three seaplanes on the lake outside 308 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 1: of South Apollo. He said he ran his sightseeing business there, 309 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 1: but he said he's very useful to us because he 310 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 1: can fly our people into the interior. So Suckers was 311 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:27,439 Speaker 1: a guy who flew who was a key guy in 312 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:31,920 Speaker 1: their operation, and if they needed quick because somebody needed 313 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 1: a fast getaway into the interior Brazil, he would fly 314 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:38,719 Speaker 1: them into the seaplane. And apparently there were a series 315 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 1: of lakes that he knew where to land on. He 316 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 1: said Zookers was still operating, because Zookers was a lesser 317 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 1: war criminal, although much of a war criminal. Anderson made 318 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:53,920 Speaker 1: a mental note of the unusual name and reced back 319 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 1: to his hotel to come through the research feast and 320 00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 1: Thal had given him. So I looked through these files, 321 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 1: and happily I had a file on him. So I 322 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:04,359 Speaker 1: went over his file and decided he was a pretty 323 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:08,919 Speaker 1: bad son of the bits. The file I remember described 324 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:12,399 Speaker 1: how he on one occasion had locked Jews in a 325 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 1: synagogue and then set it on fire and just burned 326 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:19,360 Speaker 1: him alive in a synagogue. They told about Jews leaving 327 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 1: in these big fat blue busses for the forest, and 328 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:27,199 Speaker 1: then they busses came back empty. So the assumption was 329 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:31,880 Speaker 1: that he was slaughtering him. And he was described in 330 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: some of the Affi Davits. I saw three or four 331 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:37,680 Speaker 1: descriptions of him, and they were all this consistent. They 332 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 1: described it as a big, stocky fellow who always wore 333 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: out a leather jack and always carried his pistol in 334 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:46,639 Speaker 1: his back pocket. It was just curious place to carry 335 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,399 Speaker 1: a pistol. And anyhow, he was brutal. They said that 336 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:52,399 Speaker 1: he was. One of his favorite pastimes was bursting in 337 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 1: a Jews who had beautiful daughters twelve and one in 338 00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 1: the morning, and and HollyHood daughters off for his own 339 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 1: pleasure and that kind of stuff. He was really and ugly, vicious, 340 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 1: main son of a bitch. And so I said to Morrow, 341 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 1: can you get through to him? Yes, he said he could. 342 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 1: I said, would you arrange for me to go see him? 343 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 1: Tell him that I I just want to talk to 344 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:22,720 Speaker 1: him about his story, the harassment that he's under in 345 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:24,920 Speaker 1: that sort of made it sound as friendly as I could. 346 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:27,920 Speaker 1: Got the word back that he had agreed to see 347 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:32,200 Speaker 1: me later. I'll tell you about what Anderson encountered when 348 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 1: he went to meet with Sukers. But meanwhile, Israel was 349 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,159 Speaker 1: focused on South America too, and the Nazi fugitives hiding 350 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:48,200 Speaker 1: out there. The Israeli government kept a list of important 351 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 1: Nazi criminals who had escaped justice. We don't know how 352 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 1: many people were on it, but we do know a 353 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 1: few of the more famous names. At A Bikman, one 354 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 1: of the main architects of the Holocaust. The Massad captured 355 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:04,399 Speaker 1: him in nineteen sixty. He was put on trial and 356 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:08,919 Speaker 1: then executed two years later. Doctor Joseph Mengela, known as 357 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:11,639 Speaker 1: the Angel of Death, who had murdered Jewish children at 358 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 1: Auschwitz and had conducted ghastly experiments on Jewish prisoners, was 359 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:20,199 Speaker 1: high up on the list, and after the article appeared 360 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:27,439 Speaker 1: in the Brazilian magazine Zuker's had made it too. In 361 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 1: the early nineties sixties, the Israelis became concerned about a 362 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:35,200 Speaker 1: possible amnesty for Nazis. Remember, the German government was seriously 363 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 1: considering giving a free pass to Nazi murderers who hadn't 364 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:41,920 Speaker 1: been indicted yet. The Israelis wanted to stop this from 365 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,919 Speaker 1: happening at all costs, and they had decided to go 366 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 1: after a Nazi. A few months later, Armissad agent Mio 367 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 1: was in Paris getting ready to assume the role of 368 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 1: a lifetime He had left the apartment after his meeting 369 00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:59,639 Speaker 1: with his boss, convinced that the mission was justified. He 370 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 1: had target. Now he had to prepare to meet him, 371 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:08,399 Speaker 1: to befriend him. It's kind of a seduction. Mio had 372 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 1: played his part to four a missions that made history. 373 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 1: He was in Argentina for the most famous Massad operation 374 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:18,840 Speaker 1: of all, the nineteen six kidnapping of Adolf Aikman, one 375 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:23,159 Speaker 1: of the senior organizers of the Nazi Holocaust. Neo had 376 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:25,880 Speaker 1: flown to South America, rented the cars the team used 377 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:29,399 Speaker 1: during the surveillance and the kidnapping. He'd actually guarded the 378 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:33,199 Speaker 1: Nazi and the apartment that Massad used before bundling Aikman 379 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 1: out of Argentina and back to Israel. He'd studied Aikman closely. 380 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:43,360 Speaker 1: You have no idea what the small, nervous man he was, 381 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 1: how he signed the document agreeing to be tried in Israel, 382 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 1: and how he behaved this man who sent millions to 383 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 1: their death. So Mio had played a supporting role when 384 00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,160 Speaker 1: it came to Aikman, but now he faced a much 385 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:03,440 Speaker 1: more confident, tough minded man, one who wouldn't go so quietly. 386 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 1: He had to plan the mission himself without explicit directions 387 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 1: from Massade headquarters, and for that you had to get 388 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,400 Speaker 1: inside the butcher's head, find out what he wanted discover 389 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:18,880 Speaker 1: his weak points. Who was the kind of an operation 390 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:26,200 Speaker 1: built for someone like Mia. If you want James Bond 391 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 1: or Auto spy movies, you'll find a lot of cliches. 392 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 1: And the spy agent looks very very smart, very tall, 393 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 1: beautiful into real life. Its other agents how very far 394 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 1: away from this. Some of them looks like great people, 395 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 1: little people behind the desk. And the mad Dad was 396 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:52,159 Speaker 1: even more than this. He was a mastermind. That's after Abraham, 397 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 1: the ex massad agent who studied the Zuker's operation. He's 398 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 1: talking about meals genius at playing roles. Like any good actor, 399 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,880 Speaker 1: MEO's first thoughts were about looking the part. After leaving 400 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,680 Speaker 1: the apartment in Paris, he set out to become a 401 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 1: different person. What Meo needed was a cover identity. He 402 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 1: wasn't going to South America in heavy disguise, not exactly. 403 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 1: He already looked a lot like the man he would 404 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:22,199 Speaker 1: be playing, the Austrian businessman Anton Kunsla. He didn't need 405 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 1: to physically transform himself. But you have to understand that 406 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 1: Meo wasn't just another operative. He truly saw it to 407 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:37,040 Speaker 1: become the person he was portraying. My uncompromising perfectionism. Even 408 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:40,239 Speaker 1: that's the close of my own health is part of 409 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:44,480 Speaker 1: my nature. Then creating a cover story, all of his 410 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 1: paid close attention to all the small details, and they 411 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 1: never looked for short cuts. I had seen too many 412 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 1: filops in my lives. It was a result of half 413 00:26:55,560 --> 00:27:01,000 Speaker 1: hearted preparations, due to negligence or laziness. I could not 414 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:05,240 Speaker 1: allows it. MEO's nickname within Massad was a man of 415 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:09,399 Speaker 1: a hundred identities. He'd become these people and then when 416 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 1: the mission was over, leave them behind. But when he 417 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,919 Speaker 1: was inside the cover, it had to feel real to him. 418 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:20,920 Speaker 1: Even small changes meant a lot. So three days after 419 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:23,920 Speaker 1: the meeting in Paris, Meal took a train to Rotterdam, 420 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,720 Speaker 1: a port city in Holland. He didn't want to set 421 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,160 Speaker 1: up his cover in Paris was too close to home 422 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:31,920 Speaker 1: and he might run into someone he knew, So he 423 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 1: chose Rotterdam for its banks and hotels that did business 424 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:39,399 Speaker 1: with people from all over Europe, important people. That's what 425 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,639 Speaker 1: he was aiming for. Anton kunz La was going to 426 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 1: be a guy with a lot of money and prestige, 427 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:50,639 Speaker 1: someone solid, dependable, someone people paid attention to and believed in. 428 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 1: There's a combination of my advanced boldness, wound stomach and 429 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 1: calm appearance gave every care I had adopted in past obervations. 430 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 1: The semblance of trustworthiness in the breast pocket of meos 431 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 1: suit was an Austrian passport. It was a fake, of course. 432 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:17,400 Speaker 1: MASSAD had an entire department in Tel Aviv that produced 433 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:22,120 Speaker 1: fake passports, birth certificates and other important documents. It's been 434 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:25,440 Speaker 1: called the passport Factory. They had several ways of getting 435 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:28,920 Speaker 1: high quality documents. They would ask Jews who would spend 436 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:32,719 Speaker 1: time in foreign countries to donate their passports so duplicates 437 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:36,439 Speaker 1: could be made. They've also been accused of stealing blank 438 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:40,720 Speaker 1: passports then filling in the names of their agents cover identities. 439 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 1: Fifty blank passports once disappeared from a safe in the 440 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 1: Canadian embassy in Vienna. MASSAD was suspected. A year later, 441 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 1: one of the Canadian documents was found in Cyprus. It 442 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,960 Speaker 1: had been left behind by a MASSAD operative after a 443 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 1: bomb had exploded underneath the bed of a palace Indian 444 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 1: guerilla leader. It's been reported that the agency keeps the 445 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 1: fake passports in a vault in their headquarters, sorted by country. 446 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 1: The documents were extremely high quality. Sad even produced his 447 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 1: own paper and ink. Neil's passport identified him as Anti Kunsla, 448 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 1: a man who didn't exist. The mission had a timetable. 449 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:32,080 Speaker 1: There was a lot to do. Me would only have 450 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 1: ten hours in Rotterdam, so he had to move fast. 451 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:37,720 Speaker 1: When he got to the city, he checked into the 452 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 1: Rin Hotel, a luxury a ddress that would give him 453 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 1: instant credibility as a rich real estate developer, which was 454 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 1: supposed to be Kunzla's business. Neil then walked to the 455 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 1: post office, gave the hotel as his address, and opened 456 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 1: a PO box. That PEO box now became Anti Kunzla's 457 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 1: address in Rotterdam. Neo headed out of the post office 458 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 1: and found branch of the Amro Bank. He told the 459 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,920 Speaker 1: bank clerk he wanted to open an account. When the 460 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 1: clerk asked for his address, he gave the PO box 461 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 1: and pulled out three thousand dollars for the initial deposit. 462 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:14,520 Speaker 1: He was careful not to use his native German in 463 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 1: talking with Guy, because the Germans had occupied Rotterdam during 464 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 1: the war and there might still be lingering bitterness. Neo 465 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 1: he considered everything he still needed a visa for Brazil. 466 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,640 Speaker 1: He asked the hotel dorman what he'd need. The guy 467 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 1: sent a bell hop to get all the forms. Neo 468 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 1: slipped him what he called a fat tip, and the 469 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 1: deal was done. The dorman even called the local doctor 470 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 1: for a physical, which was one of the requirements for 471 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:46,480 Speaker 1: traveling to Brazil. Now Meo needed a visa photo. He 472 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 1: wanted to slightly change his appearance. If the operation was successful, 473 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 1: it would be a good chance that inner Poul would 474 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 1: look for him. His face would be on wanted posters 475 00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:00,320 Speaker 1: from Paris to Buenos Aires. He was our me growing 476 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:04,400 Speaker 1: a mustache, but that wasn't enough. He found an optician 477 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 1: shop nearest hotel and picked out a pair of heavy frames. 478 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 1: The optician gave him an exam, and Meo, we had 479 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 1: perfect eyesight, intentionally misread the bottom line of letters. He's 480 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:20,080 Speaker 1: got the prescription. Later he realized that the lenses would 481 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 1: actually damage his vision. But for Meo, it was the 482 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 1: price you had to pay. I knew Jokers was mistrustful 483 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:33,240 Speaker 1: and fearful of traps, and the possibility existed, or mote 484 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 1: as it might have been, that he would find some 485 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:41,240 Speaker 1: excuse to check my glasses. I might have sacrificed the 486 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:45,000 Speaker 1: quality of my eyesight for the sake of settling the account. 487 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 1: Was a despicable murder, but I don't regret it for 488 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 1: one second. As Mia went to his different appointments, he 489 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 1: picked up pocket matter, bus tickets, laundry receipt as well 490 00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 1: as tooth based and other items with the price tag 491 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 1: still on. He could leave this stuff in his luggage 492 00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:06,280 Speaker 1: when he went to Brazil. If Sukers became suspicious and 493 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 1: went through his things, he'd see that his new friend 494 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 1: really was who he said he was. He had to 495 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:16,320 Speaker 1: out paranoid suckers to be even more neurotic and fearful 496 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 1: than he was. Because Meo was meeting the butcher alone. 497 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 1: The operation the massage the town and killed soups. Because 498 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:32,760 Speaker 1: usually in the normal operation you have the backup team, 499 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:38,280 Speaker 1: you have your way to a kid. Dathaniel says, you 500 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 1: have a gun or weapons or other kinds of playfriends. 501 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 1: Not this time. Meal was the only real weapon. With 502 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 1: his mind his ability to outwit his target. It made 503 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 1: his cover extremely important. After finishing up in Rotterdam, Meo 504 00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,480 Speaker 1: headed to Zurich. There he set up a bank account 505 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 1: and arranged for several letters of credit. He bought a 506 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 1: lightweight black suit, the kind of business men who are 507 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,479 Speaker 1: in Brazil. He picked up some stationary which he had 508 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 1: engraved with his fake name. He had some business cards 509 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 1: and travelers checks. Then it was back to Paris. He 510 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,680 Speaker 1: met again with the mission Commander Joseph your Reeve and 511 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:23,800 Speaker 1: worked out exactly how they would communicate during the operation. 512 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 1: This was and of course there was no email or texting. 513 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 1: Even international phone calls were expensive and hard to make, 514 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:36,960 Speaker 1: so instead they would use fake messages sent by airmail 515 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,360 Speaker 1: and in them Meo and Massad would write the real 516 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 1: messages and invisible inc if Suker's got to look at them, 517 00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 1: they would appear to be just simple business letters. When 518 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:50,959 Speaker 1: the meeting was over, Neo booked a flight to Brazil 519 00:33:51,320 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 1: for September eleventh. He was ready to meet the Butcher. Hi, 520 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 1: this is Stephen Talty, host of Good Assassins Hunting the Butcher. 521 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:12,920 Speaker 1: The folks that help me bring you this show, Diversion 522 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,799 Speaker 1: Podcasts have just launched another podcast that I think you'll like. 523 00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:21,719 Speaker 1: It's called Backstaged The Devil in Metal, a deep dive 524 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,960 Speaker 1: into the history of mental music, filled with never before 525 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 1: heard interviews and stories from some of the biggest names 526 00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:33,000 Speaker 1: of music, including Black Sabbath, Judas Priest, Ben Helen, and 527 00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:39,120 Speaker 1: many others. It's outrageous, raw and surprising at times backstage. 528 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,520 Speaker 1: The Devil in Metal is out Now. Follow the show 529 00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:46,160 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts, I hired Radio app or wherever you 530 00:34:46,239 --> 00:35:01,399 Speaker 1: listen to your podcasts. His first stop Rio. The flight 531 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,400 Speaker 1: to Brazil was twelve hours long. He was exhausted when 532 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:08,759 Speaker 1: he arrived. He checked into the Hotel California that was 533 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:10,719 Speaker 1: the name Believe it or Not, and went up to 534 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 1: the restaurant. From his seat, he could see Copacabana Beach 535 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 1: laid up beneath him. He took in the view, knowing 536 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:19,720 Speaker 1: it would be the last time for a long time 537 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:23,960 Speaker 1: he would be able to fully relax. It was a 538 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:29,239 Speaker 1: fairly wide strip of golden sands bordering blue waters on 539 00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:35,160 Speaker 1: one side, and strewn the myriad colorful dots that were 540 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 1: in fact beautiful sun tanned women clad in skimpy bazing swoops. 541 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:47,560 Speaker 1: The hundreds of kites in various colors and shapes such 542 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:52,600 Speaker 1: as eagles, dragons, and butterflies that sold in the pleasant 543 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:56,640 Speaker 1: sea breeze completed the picture of a free and easy 544 00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 1: life without the care in the world. He thought about 545 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,479 Speaker 1: how some people could be living such pleasant lives while 546 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:09,640 Speaker 1: he was twenty stories up planning an assassination. When he 547 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:14,080 Speaker 1: finished his dinner, he sent a telegram to Massa, I'd 548 00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:39,000 Speaker 1: safely love to everyone. Then that Monday he got to work. 549 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:42,400 Speaker 1: He went to the tourist ministry and told the officials 550 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:46,000 Speaker 1: there he wanted to invest in Brazil. He talked his 551 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 1: way into the minister's office, got his business card. He 552 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:54,000 Speaker 1: was building his local cover. Finally, he flew to South Paulo, 553 00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:57,000 Speaker 1: where the butcher was now living. He noted that the 554 00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:00,879 Speaker 1: airport was named after Santos Dumont, a famous pilot who 555 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:04,360 Speaker 1: had a medal named in his honor. Dumont Metal was 556 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:08,799 Speaker 1: awarded every year to the world's greatest aviators. Zookers had 557 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 1: won it in the thirties, who was a reminder from 558 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 1: me O of who the butcher had been before the war. 559 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:18,560 Speaker 1: Camp Meo checked into an expensive hotel in Sal Paulo. 560 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,080 Speaker 1: For the next few days, he went around the city 561 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 1: working on his identity. He reunted in a Volkswagen Beetle 562 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:27,719 Speaker 1: to get him around. He visited the local branch of 563 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,400 Speaker 1: the Swiss Bank, where he'd opened an account, left his 564 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,360 Speaker 1: business card and made sure the manager remembered him, just 565 00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:44,160 Speaker 1: in case Zukers stopped in. Then he dropped by the 566 00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:48,120 Speaker 1: headquarters of a company that specialized in marinas. Zukers had 567 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:51,759 Speaker 1: his little boat business in a marina in the Interlagos neighborhood. 568 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,960 Speaker 1: Neo needed an excuse to visit it. He quickly talked 569 00:37:55,960 --> 00:38:01,680 Speaker 1: his way into a meeting with a company's director. When 570 00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:04,640 Speaker 1: he was in character, Mio had this confidence that he 571 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:09,200 Speaker 1: lacked at other times. In real life. He was often shy, introverted. 572 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 1: In Israel, he was a bit of an outsider. His 573 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:15,880 Speaker 1: German accent marked him out as a foreigner, as opposed 574 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:19,240 Speaker 1: to many of the other Massad agents were Sabras native 575 00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:22,480 Speaker 1: born Israelis. But when Mio slipped into a new identity, 576 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:28,480 Speaker 1: he was transformed. He was sociable, chatty, even commanding. He 577 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,680 Speaker 1: was more comfortable giving orders. It's as if the missions 578 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:34,640 Speaker 1: gave me a permission to be the person he always 579 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:41,680 Speaker 1: wanted to be. At the end of the meeting, Neo 580 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:44,319 Speaker 1: got the director to write a letter introducing him to 581 00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:48,120 Speaker 1: the guy who ran the yacht club in Interlagos. Now 582 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:51,520 Speaker 1: he had a reason to go there. This is the 583 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:55,520 Speaker 1: drudge work of espionage, the kind of thing you rarely 584 00:38:55,560 --> 00:39:00,760 Speaker 1: see in movies or spy novels. Establishing cover, making attacks, 585 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:04,160 Speaker 1: scouting the territory. It seemed boring, and then the way 586 00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:07,680 Speaker 1: it was James Bond would never have bothered. But in 587 00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:10,560 Speaker 1: the real world of espionage, it could save your life. 588 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:16,440 Speaker 1: I was pleased with my achievements. Thanks to the combination 589 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:22,600 Speaker 1: of professional experience and the little luck I had managed 590 00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:27,560 Speaker 1: in just four days to not only further establish Macago 591 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:31,760 Speaker 1: story and had concrete details to the character Anton Kunz, 592 00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:38,600 Speaker 1: but also to get elegantly closer to the target without 593 00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:45,440 Speaker 1: leaving any incriminating traces behind. Every step brought me closer 594 00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:49,800 Speaker 1: to Zuker's dock and to the inevitable face to face 595 00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:55,480 Speaker 1: encounter with him. Meal was expected to meet an old man. 596 00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:58,960 Speaker 1: The butcher was sixty four, after all, past his prime. 597 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,000 Speaker 1: You thought this would be a battle of wills where 598 00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:05,440 Speaker 1: the biggest danger would be getting found out. If that happened, 599 00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:08,560 Speaker 1: the operation would be over and the amnesty for Nazi 600 00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:11,640 Speaker 1: criminals the German government was planning would most likely go 601 00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:15,080 Speaker 1: into effect. Would be a painful blow to Jews all 602 00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:19,799 Speaker 1: over the World. Mio knew the mission was risky, but 603 00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:24,360 Speaker 1: he never imagined it would be physically dangerous. It wasn't 604 00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:28,480 Speaker 1: like the Butcher was still out to kill Jews, but 605 00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:32,680 Speaker 1: Meo was wrong about that, and he also didn't know 606 00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,760 Speaker 1: that the Butcher had bowed never to be taken alive. 607 00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:50,480 Speaker 1: Good Assassins Hunting the Butcher is a production of Diversion 608 00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:54,799 Speaker 1: Podcasts in association with I Heart Radio. This season is 609 00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:58,480 Speaker 1: written and hosted by Stephen Talti, produced and directed by 610 00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:03,040 Speaker 1: Scott Waxman and jacobron Stein. Executive producers Scott Waxman and 611 00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:08,160 Speaker 1: Mark Francis. Story editing by Jacob Bronstein, with editorial direction 612 00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:12,120 Speaker 1: from Scott Waxman and Mangesh Had Ticket Dour Editing, mixing 613 00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:15,360 Speaker 1: and sound designed by Mark Francis with the voices of 614 00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:21,320 Speaker 1: Nick Afka, Thomas Armory, Angle, Andrew Polk, Mindy Escobar, Leants, 615 00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:26,840 Speaker 1: Steve Rautman and Stefan Rudnitsky. Theme music by Tyler Cash. 616 00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:32,239 Speaker 1: Archival research by Adam Shapiro. Special thanks to Oran Rosenbaum 617 00:41:32,320 --> 00:42:32,840 Speaker 1: at U T a mber Er. The Diverse