WEBVTT - Biden's Inner Circle and the Cost of Denial 0:00:02.400 --> 0:00:06.560 This whole story is just so tragic, and it really is. 0:00:06.640 --> 0:00:09.039 I mean, I know everybody thinks their stories, what they 0:00:09.039 --> 0:00:11.680 write about is Shakespearean, but there is just an element 0:00:11.720 --> 0:00:15.200 of centuries old drama to this. The man who rises 0:00:15.320 --> 0:00:18.759 to the top to save the nation from Donald Trump 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:22.480 and guarantees the reelection of Donald Trump by denying his 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:24.680 own fallibility. 0:00:24.160 --> 0:00:25.280 And his own hubris. 0:00:25.480 --> 0:00:29.960 Yeah. 0:00:30.040 --> 0:00:33.240 Hi everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric and this is next question. 0:00:37.520 --> 0:00:40.240 On May fourteenth, I headed down to Washington, d C. 0:00:40.640 --> 0:00:47.400 On the seven to twenty five am Regional Amtrak. Huh 0:00:47.520 --> 0:00:49.879 nice sound effect. I was on my way to the 0:00:49.960 --> 0:00:53.320 nation's capital to participate in a health conference that had 0:00:53.360 --> 0:00:56.520 been organized by Axios, and since I was going to 0:00:56.520 --> 0:00:59.160 be in the neighborhood, my producers reached out to Jake 0:00:59.240 --> 0:01:02.920 Tapper of c and Alex Thompson of Axios to see 0:01:02.960 --> 0:01:06.399 if we could sit down and discuss their explosive new book, 0:01:06.640 --> 0:01:10.560 Original Sin. It's a deep dive into the decision made 0:01:10.560 --> 0:01:14.160 by President Joe Biden to run for reelection and about 0:01:14.200 --> 0:01:17.880 the people in the Biden inner circle who were behind it. 0:01:18.880 --> 0:01:23.400 Alex Thompson, Jake Tapper, authors of Original Sin. Hi, guys, 0:01:23.400 --> 0:01:24.360 how are you good? 0:01:24.440 --> 0:01:25.000 How are you doing good? 0:01:25.040 --> 0:01:27.440 To say him, It's great to see you both. After 0:01:27.480 --> 0:01:30.399 the interview, when we jumped on the Essella heading home 0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:34.080 later that afternoon, there was someone in my assigned seat. 0:01:34.800 --> 0:01:39.759 That's someone was Joe Biden, mister Amtrak himself. How crazy 0:01:39.840 --> 0:01:43.080 is that he had about five Secret Service agents with 0:01:43.200 --> 0:01:46.680 him and was heading back to Wilmington, Delaware after meetings 0:01:46.720 --> 0:01:50.880 in Washington. I've known Joe Biden for decades, and so 0:01:51.240 --> 0:01:54.400 in between other passengers asking if they could take their 0:01:54.400 --> 0:01:57.600 photos with him, he was incredibly gracious by the way. 0:01:58.160 --> 0:02:00.800 I sat down next to him at it for a bit. 0:02:01.600 --> 0:02:05.120 I can't share our conversation because someone in his detail 0:02:05.240 --> 0:02:08.639 said this is all off the record, right, and I agreed. 0:02:09.200 --> 0:02:12.920 But I did find him his usual affable self and 0:02:13.040 --> 0:02:18.040 wrote to Jake that he was cogent and conversant. Jake responded, 0:02:18.480 --> 0:02:22.560 not surprised. In fact, his assessment echoed what he and 0:02:22.600 --> 0:02:25.760 Alex had reported in the early pages of their book. 0:02:26.600 --> 0:02:30.280 As of early twenty twenty five. They wrote, Biden can, still, 0:02:30.320 --> 0:02:33.880 of course, engage in a coherent conversation if he is 0:02:33.960 --> 0:02:38.160 prepared and rested. He didn't need preparation to have mostly 0:02:38.280 --> 0:02:41.960 small talk with me, but he was for sure coherent 0:02:42.880 --> 0:02:46.919 and he didn't think I was Diane Sawyer. That following Sunday, 0:02:47.240 --> 0:02:50.160 it was announced that Joe Biden has been diagnosed with 0:02:50.240 --> 0:02:54.240 aggressive prostate cancer that has spread to his bones. The 0:02:54.280 --> 0:02:57.600 speculation about some kind of cover up about his health 0:02:57.639 --> 0:03:01.200 issues began again. But according to to experts I spoke to, 0:03:01.480 --> 0:03:06.080 this is an unfair conclusion. We simply don't have enough information. 0:03:06.880 --> 0:03:11.960 But original Sin may do nothing to allay those concerns. Now, 0:03:12.040 --> 0:03:15.720 if you peruse social media regularly, you'll see a lot 0:03:15.760 --> 0:03:20.000 of people raging about this book. Why now, and in 0:03:20.040 --> 0:03:23.240 the view of some critics, why write it at all. 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:26.520 So that's what I started our conversation with when I 0:03:26.560 --> 0:03:29.840 sat down to talk to Jake and Alex last Wednesday 0:03:29.919 --> 0:03:34.040 in Washington. Reading the comments on social media this morning, 0:03:34.639 --> 0:03:35.120 I was like. 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:37.200 Never read the comments. Don't you know that you never 0:03:37.280 --> 0:03:37.560 read the. 0:03:37.800 --> 0:03:40.680 I actually do. I don't know why, because I do 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:44.600 like to take the temperature of some people, and given 0:03:45.000 --> 0:03:47.080 some of them are taken with a grain of salt, 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:50.200 but I like to see what people are saying, and 0:03:51.040 --> 0:03:53.560 a lot of folks are really taking you to to tasks. 0:03:53.720 --> 0:03:55.400 I want to read some of the comments from a 0:03:55.440 --> 0:03:59.920 post on the New Yorkers Instagram about your book, not 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:03.160 look Back. Let's get working on fixing the future, get 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:05.720 a grip, Let's talk about the real issues and get 0:04:05.760 --> 0:04:10.080 over Biden. What the hell? Slow news day, Jake? And yeah, 0:04:10.200 --> 0:04:13.560 once again, let's not blame the Republicans at all. Maybe 0:04:13.640 --> 0:04:16.000 Jake Tapper could get away from behind the desk and 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:19.360 investigate how journalists like himself don't hold Trump to account 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:22.960 and ask crappy questions. Okay, so you get the drift, 0:04:23.000 --> 0:04:24.960 you guys, and good morning. 0:04:24.600 --> 0:04:26.560 By good to see you morning, Nice to see you. 0:04:26.880 --> 0:04:29.320 So you know, what would you say to those people 0:04:29.360 --> 0:04:33.040 who are really giving you a hard time about looking 0:04:33.240 --> 0:04:39.160 at this issue and Joe Biden's kind of cognitive ability 0:04:39.240 --> 0:04:40.120 at this point? 0:04:40.240 --> 0:04:44.280 Yeah, So I have many thoughts. One of them is 0:04:45.320 --> 0:04:50.200 I do cover President Trump with aggressive analysis every day, 0:04:51.040 --> 0:04:53.800 two hours a day, and then every other Sunday. So 0:04:53.920 --> 0:04:57.680 I mean I would suggest that that writer might want 0:04:57.720 --> 0:05:00.599 to turn on CNN at five o'clock Eastern and see 0:05:00.600 --> 0:05:03.960 because we do do that coverage. But beyond that is 0:05:04.000 --> 0:05:06.680 what George Clooney said to me, said to me, and 0:05:06.720 --> 0:05:09.880 Alex the other day when I talked to him at 0:05:09.920 --> 0:05:12.200 the end of his play on Broadway, good Night and 0:05:12.240 --> 0:05:13.440 Good Luck. Have you seen it? 0:05:13.600 --> 0:05:15.000 Yes? It has great right, Yeah, I thought it was 0:05:15.040 --> 0:05:15.400 really good. 0:05:15.480 --> 0:05:17.520 So it's entirely said in nineteen fifty four except the 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:20.400 very end where he shows this montage of what television 0:05:20.440 --> 0:05:23.880 has become since then. And in addition to I mean, 0:05:23.880 --> 0:05:25.719 there's lots in that montage, but one of the you 0:05:25.760 --> 0:05:28.039 see lies about the twenty twenty election from Republicans, and 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:30.880 then you see lies about Biden's acuity from Democrats. And 0:05:30.880 --> 0:05:32.680 I asked him about the importance why he felt that 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:36.479 was important to include, and he said, it's about speaking 0:05:36.480 --> 0:05:38.120 truth to power, no matter who's in power. But also, 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:41.559 how do you think we got Trump? That was Clooney's answer. 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:45.280 And I think Democrats need to reckon with this fact 0:05:45.400 --> 0:05:48.160 that one of the reasons why even as Trump's pull 0:05:48.240 --> 0:05:51.160 numbers go down, democrats pull numbers are not going up. 0:05:51.640 --> 0:05:55.400 And I think the lies, the gas lighting that the 0:05:55.400 --> 0:05:58.560 Biden White House and President Biden himself told the country 0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:04.640 about his aque are and albatross not unlike what the 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:07.560 Iraq War was for Republicans, you know, more than a 0:06:07.560 --> 0:06:08.120 decade ago. 0:06:08.560 --> 0:06:11.919 Do you think, Alex that the lack of transparency shown 0:06:11.960 --> 0:06:16.679 by the Biden administration and about his health or mental condition, 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:19.880 do you think that is contributing to the low approval 0:06:19.960 --> 0:06:22.600 ratings for Democrats. As Jake points out. 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:28.080 Yeah, I think some voters feel gaslet by the Democratic 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:32.040 Party by saying that this guy could serve his name 0:06:32.120 --> 0:06:34.000 in that he was. They were saying he was on 0:06:34.040 --> 0:06:36.839 top of it, running circles around his aides at the time, 0:06:36.920 --> 0:06:39.320 but also like this guy could serve another four years 0:06:39.400 --> 0:06:40.320 till he was eighty six. 0:06:41.320 --> 0:06:43.040 I do think the. 0:06:43.000 --> 0:06:47.200 Democrats, according to voters I've talked to, like Democrats have 0:06:47.200 --> 0:06:50.920 a credibility problem because they were insisting. And I'd say, 0:06:51.000 --> 0:06:54.320 you know, also in response to those comments, I mean, 0:06:54.400 --> 0:06:56.919 those are the same comments I got whenever I reported 0:06:56.960 --> 0:07:00.279 on Biden's age going back to twenty twenty one and 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:03.720 especially starting in twenty twenty three, and you know, focus 0:07:03.760 --> 0:07:06.880 on Trump and it's like, well, you know, first of all, 0:07:06.920 --> 0:07:13.800 our job is not to necessarily meet vote like readers expectations. 0:07:13.840 --> 0:07:15.880 Our job is just to say, like, well, this is 0:07:15.920 --> 0:07:16.560 what's happening. 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:19.960 And if people don't like to read the truth, then 0:07:20.720 --> 0:07:21.280 that's on them. 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:26.040 The George Clooney fundraiser he did with Jeffrey Katzenberg and 0:07:26.120 --> 0:07:28.920 Julia Roberts came. You described it in the summer of 0:07:28.960 --> 0:07:32.400 twenty twenty four, write in Los Angeles. That seemed to 0:07:32.480 --> 0:07:38.679 be a real aha moment obviously for George Clooney. Why 0:07:38.680 --> 0:07:40.960 did you focus so much attention or why was that 0:07:41.120 --> 0:07:43.760 anecdote Jake so important to include? 0:07:44.040 --> 0:07:47.520 Well, it was important to include because the op ed 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:51.200 that George Clooney wrote in The New York Times between 0:07:51.520 --> 0:07:55.400 the debate and on June twenty seventh and Biden dropping 0:07:55.400 --> 0:07:58.000 out in July twenty first, that op ed by George 0:07:58.000 --> 0:08:02.960 Clooney was incredibly important and impactful. It just was here, 0:08:03.000 --> 0:08:06.720 you have a very respected, very beloved Hollywood star and director, 0:08:07.320 --> 0:08:08.920 big democratic donor. 0:08:09.600 --> 0:08:11.480 And serious personious person. 0:08:11.560 --> 0:08:15.840 His activism when it comes to Darthorn Sudan is incredibly respected. 0:08:16.360 --> 0:08:19.680 And he comes forward and says, I love Joe Biden. 0:08:19.720 --> 0:08:23.200 It's time for him to drop out and notes in 0:08:23.240 --> 0:08:26.400 a line that Jeffrey Katzenberg wanted him to remove. The 0:08:26.480 --> 0:08:28.160 Joe Biden that we all saw at the debate is 0:08:28.200 --> 0:08:30.920 the Joe Biden I saw backstage at the fundraiser. I'm 0:08:30.920 --> 0:08:35.280 paraphrasing when Joe Biden walks over to George Clooney and 0:08:35.360 --> 0:08:38.839 doesn't recognize him, somebody that he's known for more than 0:08:38.840 --> 0:08:42.440 fifteen years, somebody who is the co host of this 0:08:42.559 --> 0:08:46.760 incredibly lucrative fundraiser, record breaking Democratic fundraiser, and somebody who's 0:08:46.800 --> 0:08:50.520 one of the most recognizable faces in the world. That 0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:54.720 was really really disturbing to everybody in that little clotch 0:08:54.840 --> 0:08:57.840 who saw it happen, and Biden's behavior in general that 0:08:57.960 --> 0:09:01.560 night behind the scenes was disturbing to President Obama. It 0:09:01.679 --> 0:09:04.080 wasn't as bad on stage, but even people in the 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:07.760 audience there, Democratic congressman and Any Custer of New Hampshire, 0:09:08.000 --> 0:09:11.280 a lot of Obama people like John Favreau, former director 0:09:11.280 --> 0:09:14.080 of Speech Running, they were all very disturbed by what 0:09:14.120 --> 0:09:18.080 they saw, and they all left that fundraiser thinking, oh 0:09:18.080 --> 0:09:19.800 my god, this is not going to work. 0:09:20.120 --> 0:09:23.320 A lot of people were making excuses for Joe Biden's 0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:26.320 sort of lack of being with it that day by 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:29.280 saying he had a grueling travel schedule. 0:09:29.520 --> 0:09:33.160 Good, he did have a grueling travel schedule. Presidents have 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:35.680 grueling travel schedules. That's part of the job. 0:09:36.559 --> 0:09:39.640 You write in the book Alex and your author's note 0:09:39.720 --> 0:09:43.080 that you spoke to around two hundred people lawmakers, white 0:09:43.120 --> 0:09:46.640 house staff, campaign insiders, but many of them opened up 0:09:46.640 --> 0:09:49.840 to you only after the election. I think the word 0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:54.480 after is pivotal here. How do you explain the fact 0:09:54.559 --> 0:09:58.840 that so many people remained silent when it really mattered 0:09:58.880 --> 0:10:00.720 and could have made a differ friends. 0:10:01.040 --> 0:10:04.200 I think it was a sincere in the case of 0:10:04.200 --> 0:10:06.319 most of them. I think some people were just looking 0:10:06.360 --> 0:10:10.040 out after their own self interest in keeping their jobs. 0:10:10.920 --> 0:10:13.199 But I think for a decent number of people, it 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:18.840 was a sincere fear of Donald Trump winning and a 0:10:18.880 --> 0:10:23.480 belief that going public with their concerns was only going 0:10:23.520 --> 0:10:27.720 to have the effect of helping Trump. And if you 0:10:28.160 --> 0:10:31.480 believe that he's an essential threat to democracy, you can 0:10:31.559 --> 0:10:35.679 rationalize a lot. And I think it was a combination 0:10:35.720 --> 0:10:37.080 of those two factors, and I. 0:10:37.800 --> 0:10:39.680 But not to let them completely off the hook. 0:10:39.800 --> 0:10:42.679 I think some people just were like, if he wins, 0:10:42.720 --> 0:10:45.680 I get to keep my job, and we're doing the 0:10:45.760 --> 0:10:47.640 right thing for the country. So I think it was 0:10:47.679 --> 0:10:49.800 a combination of those things. 0:10:50.000 --> 0:10:53.760 Even now, very few people spoke on the record to 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:56.400 you all well, there were a lot of There were 0:10:56.440 --> 0:10:57.800 a lot of anonymous sources. 0:10:57.880 --> 0:10:59.400 There are a lot of anonymous sources, but there are 0:10:59.440 --> 0:11:02.360 a lot of is that it's very clear that we 0:11:02.400 --> 0:11:06.439 spoke with you know, when you're reading certain stories, you know, 0:11:06.520 --> 0:11:09.720 I mean, we wrote it as a narrative. We didn't 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:12.000 like as Bob Woodward does. We didn't write it as 0:11:12.120 --> 0:11:15.160 according to three sources, according to two sources. But it's 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:17.000 pretty clear. I mean, almost everybody in the book we 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:20.200 spoke with. Anybody named, almost all of them we spoke with. 0:11:20.360 --> 0:11:22.760 But yes, you're right, there are still people who are. 0:11:22.880 --> 0:11:25.240 Afraid why why do you think that is, Jake. 0:11:25.600 --> 0:11:28.440 They don't want to be seen as disloyal, they don't 0:11:28.440 --> 0:11:34.240 want to be seen as helping Trump, which I mean, 0:11:34.280 --> 0:11:37.760 it's still so part of the DNA. I mean my thesis, 0:11:37.800 --> 0:11:39.600 and I can't speak for Alex, but I think you 0:11:39.640 --> 0:11:41.959 agree that the Democrats really need to reckon with this. 0:11:42.160 --> 0:11:45.160 In terms of twenty twenty eight, At some point some 0:11:45.280 --> 0:11:50.240 Democratic presidential candidate is going to acknowledge that President Biden 0:11:50.280 --> 0:11:52.280 his family in the inner circle were lying to people 0:11:52.320 --> 0:11:55.120 about what was going on. But they haven't. They haven't 0:11:55.160 --> 0:11:57.679 done that yet. And I'm guessing by the time this 0:11:57.720 --> 0:12:00.520 podcast drops it, they will not have done it by then. 0:12:00.480 --> 0:12:02.320 Either, but they think they'll do it ever. 0:12:02.440 --> 0:12:04.240 Jase, Yes, I think they'll have to, and I think 0:12:04.280 --> 0:12:06.040 because this is a really I mean, it's going to 0:12:06.080 --> 0:12:08.880 be a progress. Politicians love to wait for the parade 0:12:08.920 --> 0:12:11.080 and then run in front of it, but at some 0:12:11.240 --> 0:12:14.400 point people are going to I mean, most people right 0:12:14.440 --> 0:12:16.880 now don't know the George Clooney story, that Joe Biden 0:12:16.880 --> 0:12:20.520 didn't recognize George Clooney, but I do think at some 0:12:20.640 --> 0:12:23.280 point there's going to be some saturation of that, and 0:12:23.320 --> 0:12:24.679 that's going to be shocking for people. 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:27.680 For Democrats, Alex, I know that you made a speech 0:12:27.720 --> 0:12:31.640 at this year's White House Correspondent Stinner because obviously the 0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:35.200 role of the press in all this is going to 0:12:35.240 --> 0:12:39.920 be paramount as people are really evaluating what happened and 0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:44.480 why you said. Quote. President Biden's decline and its cover 0:12:44.600 --> 0:12:46.880 up by the people around him is a reminder that 0:12:46.960 --> 0:12:50.480 every White House, regardless of party, is capable of deception. 0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:55.120 But being truth tellers also means telling the truth about ourselves. 0:12:55.360 --> 0:12:58.920 We myself included mist a lot of this story, and 0:12:59.000 --> 0:13:02.200 some people trust us less because of it. We bear 0:13:02.280 --> 0:13:06.640 some responsibility for faith in the media being at such lows. 0:13:07.000 --> 0:13:09.880 Can you talk about the forces that were at work 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:13.520 for members of either the White House Press Corps or 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:17.160 the press in general that prevented the story from getting 0:13:17.400 --> 0:13:21.120 out there and getting in front of the American people, 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:21.760 You know. 0:13:21.760 --> 0:13:24.120 I think it depends on every reporter. And the reason 0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:26.880 I even said the comments was it just to me 0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:31.040 just internally, it felt odd to especially after Jake and 0:13:31.120 --> 0:13:34.600 I reported the book, I realized even though I had 0:13:34.600 --> 0:13:37.400 been aggressive in reporting it, I realized how much I 0:13:37.440 --> 0:13:41.840 didn't know, and it just felt weird winning an award 0:13:41.920 --> 0:13:45.440 for something that I thought was something we fell short on. 0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:47.360 So I just felt like I had to say something. 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:47.760 Now. 0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:50.560 As for the forces you're talking about, I mean, I 0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:54.240 think it depends, you know. I think some reporters carried 0:13:54.240 --> 0:13:58.920 the White House's water right. They wanted access, they wanted 0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:01.280 like the people to reach turn their calls, you know. 0:14:01.320 --> 0:14:02.440 I think there is some of that. 0:14:02.760 --> 0:14:05.880 I think some people let probably their own like you know, 0:14:05.920 --> 0:14:10.199 internal political biases like affect them. And I think some 0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:15.680 people just believed their sources. I have like empathy and 0:14:15.720 --> 0:14:20.680 sympathy where you know, people were not telling the truth. 0:14:20.880 --> 0:14:24.440 And sometimes even like the press flags didn't even know 0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:27.360 what the truth was because they didn't really have access 0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:31.560 to the president and they were just being told they 0:14:31.560 --> 0:14:35.280 were trusting their own bosses, and then they were telling 0:14:35.320 --> 0:14:38.400 reporters what their bosses had told them, and the reporters 0:14:38.440 --> 0:14:42.240 trusted them because a lot of reporting is based on trusts, 0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:45.880 and so I think it was a combination of of 0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:46.840 all of those things. 0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:48.920 But Washington journalism, you. 0:14:48.880 --> 0:14:54.480 Know, does have a tendency to have instances of groupthink, 0:14:55.520 --> 0:14:58.800 and I think this was one instance of that. 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:03.560 I'd like to that there were some psychological factors going 0:15:03.640 --> 0:15:09.520 on to as reporters are actual human beings, and it's 0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:15.280 very uncomfortable, I think, to talk about age or aging 0:15:15.760 --> 0:15:19.400 and talk about sort of cognitive decline. I think we 0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:24.000 have all experienced it, perhaps with older people in our lives, 0:15:24.000 --> 0:15:26.640 our parents. It's like taking the car keys away from 0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:29.040 your father. You'd like, don't want to deal with it 0:15:29.200 --> 0:15:34.520 on some level. And every time people would mention it, 0:15:34.800 --> 0:15:38.960 you know, like David Axelrod or rom Emmanuel, you know, 0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:44.600 there was this backlash of sort of shame and trying 0:15:44.640 --> 0:15:49.000 to make the people feel embarrassed for even bringing it up. 0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:53.640 So I almost saw it as a microcosm of a larger, 0:15:54.120 --> 0:15:58.560 just plain uncomfortable conversation. Do you see that at all? 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:03.960 First of all, it's impossible for me, and I did 0:16:04.040 --> 0:16:07.840 cover this a bit, his cognitive decline or his age, 0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:12.000 but it's impossible, knowing then what I know now, to 0:16:12.120 --> 0:16:14.560 not feel humility when I look back at my coverage. 0:16:15.160 --> 0:16:17.640 And even though Alex broke a ton of great stories 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:21.600 about this, we knew a fraction a fraction of what 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:24.440 we know now and what readers will learn. There is 0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:26.480 group think. I mean, I look back at my coverage 0:16:26.480 --> 0:16:29.520 of the Iraq War, and I was skeptical of the 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:32.560 WMD claim, the weapons of mass destruction claim, but in 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:37.280 retrospect not skeptical enough. But then, yeah, there is this discomfort. 0:16:37.320 --> 0:16:41.240 And there is also this legacy in this town where 0:16:42.640 --> 0:16:47.000 age is treated differently than in any other business. 0:16:47.440 --> 0:16:51.160 You mean, in politics and politics in you. 0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:54.440 Know, there are very few. There are no eighty five 0:16:54.480 --> 0:16:57.920 year old or eighty year old anchors on teav right 0:16:58.480 --> 0:17:02.480 are no, well no, I'm sure I'll be put on 0:17:02.520 --> 0:17:05.360 the ice flow long before that, but but there are 0:17:05.560 --> 0:17:10.359 usually there is usually in any other institution sports, uh, 0:17:10.400 --> 0:17:13.880 at corporate America. For sure, there's a board of trustees 0:17:13.880 --> 0:17:16.240 that they have to uh or that they have to 0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:19.600 deal with, and on and on, Hollywood. I mean, there 0:17:19.640 --> 0:17:23.800 is somebody else making the decision in politics. In politics, 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:28.200 really it's just the voters. There's nobody, especially if you're 0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:30.520 very powerful, like the President of the United States, there's 0:17:30.520 --> 0:17:32.320 no one that can say it's really time for you 0:17:32.359 --> 0:17:34.560 to hang it up. I mean, we see this day 0:17:34.600 --> 0:17:35.720 in day out in this town. 0:17:36.119 --> 0:17:38.440 Well, look at Strom theremy strom Thurman. 0:17:38.240 --> 0:17:42.280 Look at kayuh what was it named Kid Granger? Kid Granger, 0:17:42.320 --> 0:17:45.440 who was the chair of the House Appropriations Committee, Diane 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:49.720 and Feinstein, there's the longlist, Thad Cochrane, John Conyers, and 0:17:49.720 --> 0:17:55.199 and there is and it's it's obviously worse with President Biden, 0:17:56.080 --> 0:18:00.920 but there is an an infrastructure, a family staff, people 0:18:01.000 --> 0:18:04.560 making money off of that politician that are doing. 0:18:04.320 --> 0:18:06.920 It ane empowering as that politician. 0:18:07.080 --> 0:18:10.680 And all you have to do is snooker the voters. 0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:13.199 That's all you have to do. There are people in 0:18:13.240 --> 0:18:16.560 Congress right now who are too old to be in Congress. 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:21.040 But even raising that issue is still in this town 0:18:21.160 --> 0:18:26.080 seen as rude or partisan. If you're depending on the 0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:28.320 party of the person you're saying it about. 0:18:28.600 --> 0:18:31.879 You know, you mentioned that you did try to cover 0:18:31.920 --> 0:18:34.200 the story and concede you could have done more. 0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:35.840 But it's been a lot more. To be clear, I 0:18:35.840 --> 0:18:36.679 could have done a ton. 0:18:36.600 --> 0:18:38.480 More, and we'll talk about that in a second. But 0:18:38.560 --> 0:18:41.520 in September of twenty twenty, Jake, you interviewed Joe Biden. 0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:44.119 You asked him point blank about his health. You said, 0:18:44.440 --> 0:18:47.240 if you're elected, you would be the oldest president ever. 0:18:47.600 --> 0:18:50.600 The American people have been lied to before by presidents 0:18:50.640 --> 0:18:55.600 about the president's health. Fdr jfk Ronald Reagan. We don't 0:18:55.640 --> 0:18:58.520 know still what happened with Donald Trump and his visit 0:18:58.560 --> 0:19:01.800 to Walter Reid last year. Will you pledge that if 0:19:01.840 --> 0:19:06.800 you're elected, you will be transparent about your health? What 0:19:06.920 --> 0:19:08.160 did he say to you? Shake back? 0:19:08.200 --> 0:19:11.680 Then he interrupted, He interrupted the question to say yes 0:19:12.119 --> 0:19:16.040 that he would. And that's actually the very end of 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:19.320 the book is that scene is him promising that he 0:19:19.320 --> 0:19:23.000 would be fully transparent and to be honest. Like obviously 0:19:23.040 --> 0:19:26.240 we had all seen him older in the twenty nineteen 0:19:26.280 --> 0:19:30.000 twenty two en campaign. He seemed fine in that interview. 0:19:30.160 --> 0:19:32.560 I only had one more interview with him in twenty twenty, 0:19:32.840 --> 0:19:36.800 where he seemed like twenty years older but still functioning. 0:19:37.560 --> 0:19:40.840 But what we learned in our reporting was that starting 0:19:40.880 --> 0:19:44.000 in about twenty nineteen, twenty twenty, if not before after 0:19:44.040 --> 0:19:47.040 the death of Bo, there were basically two Bidens. There 0:19:47.119 --> 0:19:51.239 was Fine Salvagable, Fine on the stomp Joe Biden, and 0:19:51.280 --> 0:19:55.200 then there was non functioning Biden. The non functioning Biden 0:19:55.280 --> 0:19:58.320 is the one who couldn't remember the names of top aides, 0:19:58.760 --> 0:20:00.960 who lost his train of thought in a way that 0:20:01.119 --> 0:20:03.280 was disturbing. We all lose our train of thought, but 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:07.080 beyond just normal losing her train of thought, and a 0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:10.479 Joe Biden who was adult, and that non functioning Biden, 0:20:11.520 --> 0:20:14.800 who I did not see really in twenty nineteen twenty twenty, 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:18.040 started showing up more and more behind the scenes, really 0:20:18.080 --> 0:20:20.240 in a pronounced way in twenty twenty three, twenty twenty four, 0:20:20.600 --> 0:20:23.000 and that's what Alex and I learned. He was not 0:20:23.080 --> 0:20:26.879 transparent about it. He violated that pledge to the American people, 0:20:27.359 --> 0:20:29.520 and in fact, there was an infrastructure around him that 0:20:30.200 --> 0:20:31.320 worked to hide it. 0:20:31.840 --> 0:20:34.159 I want to talk about that infrastructure in a moment, 0:20:34.240 --> 0:20:38.280 but first, preparing for this interview, some people are pointing 0:20:38.440 --> 0:20:41.840 to a conversation interview you had with Laura Trump in 0:20:41.880 --> 0:20:46.239 twenty twenty, and she talked about Biden's mental acuity, and 0:20:46.320 --> 0:20:50.119 I'm sure you remember this. You believed and said you 0:20:50.240 --> 0:20:53.720 felt she was mocking his stutter. She said she didn't 0:20:53.760 --> 0:20:56.439 even know he had a stutter, but was really talking 0:20:56.480 --> 0:21:00.600 about his cognitive struggles. You dismissed her, Jake, I think 0:21:00.640 --> 0:21:04.200 in a rather taciturn way, with all due respect, having 0:21:04.320 --> 0:21:09.360 watched the interview looking back, would you have handled it differently? 0:21:09.560 --> 0:21:13.200 Of course, of course. I mean on a conversation about aging, 0:21:13.640 --> 0:21:17.040 what Laura Trump said aged well and what I said 0:21:17.200 --> 0:21:23.320 aged poorly one hundred percent. Now, she obviously saw the 0:21:23.440 --> 0:21:27.080 non functioning Biden in a way that I had not 0:21:27.200 --> 0:21:30.560 really seen at that point. She was right, I was wrong, 0:21:31.080 --> 0:21:31.840 one hundred percent. 0:21:32.080 --> 0:21:34.040 I would also just want to add, like, the Joe 0:21:34.080 --> 0:21:36.280 Biden of twenty twenty three is different than the Joe 0:21:36.280 --> 0:21:39.320 Biden of twenty twenty and that clip is from twenty twenty, right, 0:21:39.359 --> 0:21:42.439 I know it is, so I just wanted to add that, like, 0:21:42.560 --> 0:21:46.520 there there was a much more pronounced decline beginning late 0:21:46.560 --> 0:21:56.119 in the presidency. 0:21:56.760 --> 0:21:59.639 Hi, everyone, it's Katie couric. You know I'm always on 0:21:59.680 --> 0:22:03.720 the go between running my media company, hosting my podcast, 0:22:04.080 --> 0:22:06.800 and of course covering the news, and I know that 0:22:06.920 --> 0:22:09.440 to keep doing what I love, I need to start 0:22:09.480 --> 0:22:13.320 caring for what gets me there, my feet. 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