1
00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:06,560
Speaker 1: This whole story is just so tragic, and it really is.

2
00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:09,039
Speaker 1: I mean, I know everybody thinks their stories, what they

3
00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:11,680
Speaker 1: write about is Shakespearean, but there is just an element

4
00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:15,200
Speaker 1: of centuries old drama to this. The man who rises

5
00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:18,759
Speaker 1: to the top to save the nation from Donald Trump

6
00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:22,480
Speaker 1: and guarantees the reelection of Donald Trump by denying his

7
00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:24,680
Speaker 1: own fallibility.

8
00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:25,280
Speaker 2: And his own hubris.

9
00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:29,960
Speaker 1: Yeah.

10
00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:33,240
Speaker 2: Hi everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric and this is next question.

11
00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:40,240
Speaker 2: On May fourteenth, I headed down to Washington, d C.

12
00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:47,400
Speaker 2: On the seven to twenty five am Regional Amtrak. Huh

13
00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:49,879
Speaker 2: nice sound effect. I was on my way to the

14
00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:53,320
Speaker 2: nation's capital to participate in a health conference that had

15
00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:56,520
Speaker 2: been organized by Axios, and since I was going to

16
00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:59,160
Speaker 2: be in the neighborhood, my producers reached out to Jake

17
00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:02,920
Speaker 2: Tapper of c and Alex Thompson of Axios to see

18
00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:06,399
Speaker 2: if we could sit down and discuss their explosive new book,

19
00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:10,560
Speaker 2: Original Sin. It's a deep dive into the decision made

20
00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:14,160
Speaker 2: by President Joe Biden to run for reelection and about

21
00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:17,880
Speaker 2: the people in the Biden inner circle who were behind it.

22
00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:23,400
Speaker 2: Alex Thompson, Jake Tapper, authors of Original Sin. Hi, guys,

23
00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:24,360
Speaker 2: how are you good?

24
00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:25,000
Speaker 1: How are you doing good?

25
00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:27,440
Speaker 2: To say him, It's great to see you both. After

26
00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:30,399
Speaker 2: the interview, when we jumped on the Essella heading home

27
00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:34,080
Speaker 2: later that afternoon, there was someone in my assigned seat.

28
00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:39,759
Speaker 2: That's someone was Joe Biden, mister Amtrak himself. How crazy

29
00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:43,080
Speaker 2: is that he had about five Secret Service agents with

30
00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:46,680
Speaker 2: him and was heading back to Wilmington, Delaware after meetings

31
00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:50,880
Speaker 2: in Washington. I've known Joe Biden for decades, and so

32
00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:54,400
Speaker 2: in between other passengers asking if they could take their

33
00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:57,600
Speaker 2: photos with him, he was incredibly gracious by the way.

34
00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:00,800
Speaker 2: I sat down next to him at it for a bit.

35
00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:05,120
Speaker 2: I can't share our conversation because someone in his detail

36
00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:08,639
Speaker 2: said this is all off the record, right, and I agreed.

37
00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:12,920
Speaker 2: But I did find him his usual affable self and

38
00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:18,040
Speaker 2: wrote to Jake that he was cogent and conversant. Jake responded,

39
00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:22,560
Speaker 2: not surprised. In fact, his assessment echoed what he and

40
00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:25,760
Speaker 2: Alex had reported in the early pages of their book.

41
00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:30,280
Speaker 2: As of early twenty twenty five. They wrote, Biden can, still,

42
00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:33,880
Speaker 2: of course, engage in a coherent conversation if he is

43
00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:38,160
Speaker 2: prepared and rested. He didn't need preparation to have mostly

44
00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:41,960
Speaker 2: small talk with me, but he was for sure coherent

45
00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:46,919
Speaker 2: and he didn't think I was Diane Sawyer. That following Sunday,

46
00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:50,160
Speaker 2: it was announced that Joe Biden has been diagnosed with

47
00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:54,240
Speaker 2: aggressive prostate cancer that has spread to his bones. The

48
00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:57,600
Speaker 2: speculation about some kind of cover up about his health

49
00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:01,200
Speaker 2: issues began again. But according to to experts I spoke to,

50
00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:06,080
Speaker 2: this is an unfair conclusion. We simply don't have enough information.

51
00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:11,960
Speaker 2: But original Sin may do nothing to allay those concerns. Now,

52
00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:15,720
Speaker 2: if you peruse social media regularly, you'll see a lot

53
00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:20,000
Speaker 2: of people raging about this book. Why now, and in

54
00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:23,240
Speaker 2: the view of some critics, why write it at all.

55
00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:26,520
Speaker 2: So that's what I started our conversation with when I

56
00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:29,840
Speaker 2: sat down to talk to Jake and Alex last Wednesday

57
00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:34,040
Speaker 2: in Washington. Reading the comments on social media this morning,

58
00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:35,120
Speaker 2: I was like.

59
00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:37,200
Speaker 1: Never read the comments. Don't you know that you never

60
00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:37,560
Speaker 1: read the.

61
00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:40,680
Speaker 2: I actually do. I don't know why, because I do

62
00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:44,600
Speaker 2: like to take the temperature of some people, and given

63
00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:47,080
Speaker 2: some of them are taken with a grain of salt,

64
00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:50,200
Speaker 2: but I like to see what people are saying, and

65
00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:53,560
Speaker 2: a lot of folks are really taking you to to tasks.

66
00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:55,400
Speaker 2: I want to read some of the comments from a

67
00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:59,920
Speaker 2: post on the New Yorkers Instagram about your book, not

68
00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,160
Speaker 2: look Back. Let's get working on fixing the future, get

69
00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:05,720
Speaker 2: a grip, Let's talk about the real issues and get

70
00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:10,080
Speaker 2: over Biden. What the hell? Slow news day, Jake? And yeah,

71
00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:13,560
Speaker 2: once again, let's not blame the Republicans at all. Maybe

72
00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:16,000
Speaker 2: Jake Tapper could get away from behind the desk and

73
00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:19,360
Speaker 2: investigate how journalists like himself don't hold Trump to account

74
00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:22,960
Speaker 2: and ask crappy questions. Okay, so you get the drift,

75
00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:24,960
Speaker 2: you guys, and good morning.

76
00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:26,560
Speaker 1: By good to see you morning, Nice to see you.

77
00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:29,320
Speaker 2: So you know, what would you say to those people

78
00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:33,040
Speaker 2: who are really giving you a hard time about looking

79
00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:39,160
Speaker 2: at this issue and Joe Biden's kind of cognitive ability

80
00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:40,120
Speaker 2: at this point?

81
00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:44,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I have many thoughts. One of them is

82
00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:50,200
Speaker 1: I do cover President Trump with aggressive analysis every day,

83
00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:53,800
Speaker 1: two hours a day, and then every other Sunday. So

84
00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:57,680
Speaker 1: I mean I would suggest that that writer might want

85
00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:00,599
Speaker 1: to turn on CNN at five o'clock Eastern and see

86
00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:03,960
Speaker 1: because we do do that coverage. But beyond that is

87
00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:06,680
Speaker 1: what George Clooney said to me, said to me, and

88
00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:09,880
Speaker 1: Alex the other day when I talked to him at

89
00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:12,200
Speaker 1: the end of his play on Broadway, good Night and

90
00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:13,440
Speaker 1: Good Luck. Have you seen it?

91
00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:15,000
Speaker 2: Yes? It has great right, Yeah, I thought it was

92
00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:15,400
Speaker 2: really good.

93
00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:17,520
Speaker 1: So it's entirely said in nineteen fifty four except the

94
00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:20,400
Speaker 1: very end where he shows this montage of what television

95
00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:23,880
Speaker 1: has become since then. And in addition to I mean,

96
00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:25,719
Speaker 1: there's lots in that montage, but one of the you

97
00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:28,039
Speaker 1: see lies about the twenty twenty election from Republicans, and

98
00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:30,880
Speaker 1: then you see lies about Biden's acuity from Democrats. And

99
00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:32,680
Speaker 1: I asked him about the importance why he felt that

100
00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:36,479
Speaker 1: was important to include, and he said, it's about speaking

101
00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:38,120
Speaker 1: truth to power, no matter who's in power. But also,

102
00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:41,559
Speaker 1: how do you think we got Trump? That was Clooney's answer.

103
00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:45,280
Speaker 1: And I think Democrats need to reckon with this fact

104
00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:48,160
Speaker 1: that one of the reasons why even as Trump's pull

105
00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:51,160
Speaker 1: numbers go down, democrats pull numbers are not going up.

106
00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:55,400
Speaker 1: And I think the lies, the gas lighting that the

107
00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:58,560
Speaker 1: Biden White House and President Biden himself told the country

108
00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:04,640
Speaker 1: about his aque are and albatross not unlike what the

109
00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:07,560
Speaker 1: Iraq War was for Republicans, you know, more than a

110
00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:08,120
Speaker 1: decade ago.

111
00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:11,919
Speaker 2: Do you think, Alex that the lack of transparency shown

112
00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:16,679
Speaker 2: by the Biden administration and about his health or mental condition,

113
00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:19,880
Speaker 2: do you think that is contributing to the low approval

114
00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:22,600
Speaker 2: ratings for Democrats. As Jake points out.

115
00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:28,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think some voters feel gaslet by the Democratic

116
00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:32,040
Speaker 3: Party by saying that this guy could serve his name

117
00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:34,000
Speaker 3: in that he was. They were saying he was on

118
00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:36,839
Speaker 3: top of it, running circles around his aides at the time,

119
00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:39,320
Speaker 3: but also like this guy could serve another four years

120
00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:40,320
Speaker 3: till he was eighty six.

121
00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:43,040
Speaker 4: I do think the.

122
00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:47,200
Speaker 3: Democrats, according to voters I've talked to, like Democrats have

123
00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:50,920
Speaker 3: a credibility problem because they were insisting. And I'd say,

124
00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:54,320
Speaker 3: you know, also in response to those comments, I mean,

125
00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:56,919
Speaker 3: those are the same comments I got whenever I reported

126
00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:00,279
Speaker 3: on Biden's age going back to twenty twenty one and

127
00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:03,720
Speaker 3: especially starting in twenty twenty three, and you know, focus

128
00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:06,880
Speaker 3: on Trump and it's like, well, you know, first of all,

129
00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:13,800
Speaker 3: our job is not to necessarily meet vote like readers expectations.

130
00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:15,880
Speaker 4: Our job is just to say, like, well, this is

131
00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:16,560
Speaker 4: what's happening.

132
00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:19,960
Speaker 3: And if people don't like to read the truth, then

133
00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:21,280
Speaker 3: that's on them.

134
00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:26,040
Speaker 2: The George Clooney fundraiser he did with Jeffrey Katzenberg and

135
00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:28,920
Speaker 2: Julia Roberts came. You described it in the summer of

136
00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:32,400
Speaker 2: twenty twenty four, write in Los Angeles. That seemed to

137
00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:38,679
Speaker 2: be a real aha moment obviously for George Clooney. Why

138
00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:40,960
Speaker 2: did you focus so much attention or why was that

139
00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:43,760
Speaker 2: anecdote Jake so important to include?

140
00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:47,520
Speaker 1: Well, it was important to include because the op ed

141
00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:51,200
Speaker 1: that George Clooney wrote in The New York Times between

142
00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:55,400
Speaker 1: the debate and on June twenty seventh and Biden dropping

143
00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:58,000
Speaker 1: out in July twenty first, that op ed by George

144
00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:02,960
Speaker 1: Clooney was incredibly important and impactful. It just was here,

145
00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:06,720
Speaker 1: you have a very respected, very beloved Hollywood star and director,

146
00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:08,920
Speaker 1: big democratic donor.

147
00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:11,480
Speaker 2: And serious personious person.

148
00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:15,840
Speaker 1: His activism when it comes to Darthorn Sudan is incredibly respected.

149
00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:19,680
Speaker 1: And he comes forward and says, I love Joe Biden.

150
00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:23,200
Speaker 1: It's time for him to drop out and notes in

151
00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:26,400
Speaker 1: a line that Jeffrey Katzenberg wanted him to remove. The

152
00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:28,160
Speaker 1: Joe Biden that we all saw at the debate is

153
00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:30,920
Speaker 1: the Joe Biden I saw backstage at the fundraiser. I'm

154
00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:35,280
Speaker 1: paraphrasing when Joe Biden walks over to George Clooney and

155
00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:38,839
Speaker 1: doesn't recognize him, somebody that he's known for more than

156
00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:42,440
Speaker 1: fifteen years, somebody who is the co host of this

157
00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:46,760
Speaker 1: incredibly lucrative fundraiser, record breaking Democratic fundraiser, and somebody who's

158
00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:50,520
Speaker 1: one of the most recognizable faces in the world. That

159
00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:54,720
Speaker 1: was really really disturbing to everybody in that little clotch

160
00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:57,840
Speaker 1: who saw it happen, and Biden's behavior in general that

161
00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:01,560
Speaker 1: night behind the scenes was disturbing to President Obama. It

162
00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:04,080
Speaker 1: wasn't as bad on stage, but even people in the

163
00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:07,760
Speaker 1: audience there, Democratic congressman and Any Custer of New Hampshire,

164
00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:11,280
Speaker 1: a lot of Obama people like John Favreau, former director

165
00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:14,080
Speaker 1: of Speech Running, they were all very disturbed by what

166
00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:18,080
Speaker 1: they saw, and they all left that fundraiser thinking, oh

167
00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:19,800
Speaker 1: my god, this is not going to work.

168
00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:23,320
Speaker 2: A lot of people were making excuses for Joe Biden's

169
00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:26,320
Speaker 2: sort of lack of being with it that day by

170
00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:29,280
Speaker 2: saying he had a grueling travel schedule.

171
00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:33,160
Speaker 1: Good, he did have a grueling travel schedule. Presidents have

172
00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:35,680
Speaker 1: grueling travel schedules. That's part of the job.

173
00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:39,640
Speaker 2: You write in the book Alex and your author's note

174
00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:43,080
Speaker 2: that you spoke to around two hundred people lawmakers, white

175
00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:46,640
Speaker 2: house staff, campaign insiders, but many of them opened up

176
00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:49,840
Speaker 2: to you only after the election. I think the word

177
00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:54,480
Speaker 2: after is pivotal here. How do you explain the fact

178
00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:58,840
Speaker 2: that so many people remained silent when it really mattered

179
00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:00,720
Speaker 2: and could have made a differ friends.

180
00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:04,200
Speaker 3: I think it was a sincere in the case of

181
00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:06,319
Speaker 3: most of them. I think some people were just looking

182
00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:10,040
Speaker 3: out after their own self interest in keeping their jobs.

183
00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:13,199
Speaker 3: But I think for a decent number of people, it

184
00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:18,840
Speaker 3: was a sincere fear of Donald Trump winning and a

185
00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:23,480
Speaker 3: belief that going public with their concerns was only going

186
00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:27,720
Speaker 3: to have the effect of helping Trump. And if you

187
00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:31,480
Speaker 3: believe that he's an essential threat to democracy, you can

188
00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:35,679
Speaker 3: rationalize a lot. And I think it was a combination

189
00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:37,080
Speaker 3: of those two factors, and I.

190
00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:39,680
Speaker 4: But not to let them completely off the hook.

191
00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:42,679
Speaker 3: I think some people just were like, if he wins,

192
00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:45,680
Speaker 3: I get to keep my job, and we're doing the

193
00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:47,640
Speaker 3: right thing for the country. So I think it was

194
00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:49,800
Speaker 3: a combination of those things.

195
00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:53,760
Speaker 2: Even now, very few people spoke on the record to

196
00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:56,400
Speaker 2: you all well, there were a lot of There were

197
00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:57,800
Speaker 2: a lot of anonymous sources.

198
00:10:57,880 --> 00:10:59,400
Speaker 1: There are a lot of anonymous sources, but there are

199
00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:02,360
Speaker 1: a lot of is that it's very clear that we

200
00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:06,439
Speaker 1: spoke with you know, when you're reading certain stories, you know,

201
00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:09,720
Speaker 1: I mean, we wrote it as a narrative. We didn't

202
00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:12,000
Speaker 1: like as Bob Woodward does. We didn't write it as

203
00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:15,160
Speaker 1: according to three sources, according to two sources. But it's

204
00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:17,000
Speaker 1: pretty clear. I mean, almost everybody in the book we

205
00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:20,200
Speaker 1: spoke with. Anybody named, almost all of them we spoke with.

206
00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:22,760
Speaker 1: But yes, you're right, there are still people who are.

207
00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:25,240
Speaker 2: Afraid why why do you think that is, Jake.

208
00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,440
Speaker 1: They don't want to be seen as disloyal, they don't

209
00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:34,240
Speaker 1: want to be seen as helping Trump, which I mean,

210
00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:37,760
Speaker 1: it's still so part of the DNA. I mean my thesis,

211
00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:39,600
Speaker 1: and I can't speak for Alex, but I think you

212
00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:41,959
Speaker 1: agree that the Democrats really need to reckon with this.

213
00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:45,160
Speaker 1: In terms of twenty twenty eight, At some point some

214
00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:50,240
Speaker 1: Democratic presidential candidate is going to acknowledge that President Biden

215
00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:52,280
Speaker 1: his family in the inner circle were lying to people

216
00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:55,120
Speaker 1: about what was going on. But they haven't. They haven't

217
00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:57,679
Speaker 1: done that yet. And I'm guessing by the time this

218
00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:00,520
Speaker 1: podcast drops it, they will not have done it by then.

219
00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:02,320
Speaker 2: Either, but they think they'll do it ever.

220
00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:04,240
Speaker 1: Jase, Yes, I think they'll have to, and I think

221
00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:06,040
Speaker 1: because this is a really I mean, it's going to

222
00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:08,880
Speaker 1: be a progress. Politicians love to wait for the parade

223
00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:11,080
Speaker 1: and then run in front of it, but at some

224
00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:14,400
Speaker 1: point people are going to I mean, most people right

225
00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:16,880
Speaker 1: now don't know the George Clooney story, that Joe Biden

226
00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:20,520
Speaker 1: didn't recognize George Clooney, but I do think at some

227
00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:23,280
Speaker 1: point there's going to be some saturation of that, and

228
00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:24,679
Speaker 1: that's going to be shocking for people.

229
00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:27,680
Speaker 2: For Democrats, Alex, I know that you made a speech

230
00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:31,640
Speaker 2: at this year's White House Correspondent Stinner because obviously the

231
00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:35,200
Speaker 2: role of the press in all this is going to

232
00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:39,920
Speaker 2: be paramount as people are really evaluating what happened and

233
00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:44,480
Speaker 2: why you said. Quote. President Biden's decline and its cover

234
00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:46,880
Speaker 2: up by the people around him is a reminder that

235
00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:50,480
Speaker 2: every White House, regardless of party, is capable of deception.

236
00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:55,120
Speaker 2: But being truth tellers also means telling the truth about ourselves.

237
00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:58,920
Speaker 2: We myself included mist a lot of this story, and

238
00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:02,200
Speaker 2: some people trust us less because of it. We bear

239
00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:06,640
Speaker 2: some responsibility for faith in the media being at such lows.

240
00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:09,880
Speaker 2: Can you talk about the forces that were at work

241
00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:13,520
Speaker 2: for members of either the White House Press Corps or

242
00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:17,160
Speaker 2: the press in general that prevented the story from getting

243
00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:21,120
Speaker 2: out there and getting in front of the American people,

244
00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:21,760
Speaker 2: You know.

245
00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:24,120
Speaker 3: I think it depends on every reporter. And the reason

246
00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:26,880
Speaker 3: I even said the comments was it just to me

247
00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:31,040
Speaker 3: just internally, it felt odd to especially after Jake and

248
00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:34,600
Speaker 3: I reported the book, I realized even though I had

249
00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:37,400
Speaker 3: been aggressive in reporting it, I realized how much I

250
00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:41,840
Speaker 3: didn't know, and it just felt weird winning an award

251
00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:45,440
Speaker 3: for something that I thought was something we fell short on.

252
00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:47,360
Speaker 3: So I just felt like I had to say something.

253
00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:47,760
Speaker 1: Now.

254
00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:50,560
Speaker 3: As for the forces you're talking about, I mean, I

255
00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:54,240
Speaker 3: think it depends, you know. I think some reporters carried

256
00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:58,920
Speaker 3: the White House's water right. They wanted access, they wanted

257
00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:01,280
Speaker 3: like the people to reach turn their calls, you know.

258
00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:02,440
Speaker 4: I think there is some of that.

259
00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:05,880
Speaker 3: I think some people let probably their own like you know,

260
00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:10,199
Speaker 3: internal political biases like affect them. And I think some

261
00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:15,680
Speaker 3: people just believed their sources. I have like empathy and

262
00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:20,680
Speaker 3: sympathy where you know, people were not telling the truth.

263
00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:24,440
Speaker 3: And sometimes even like the press flags didn't even know

264
00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:27,360
Speaker 3: what the truth was because they didn't really have access

265
00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:31,560
Speaker 3: to the president and they were just being told they

266
00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:35,280
Speaker 3: were trusting their own bosses, and then they were telling

267
00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:38,400
Speaker 3: reporters what their bosses had told them, and the reporters

268
00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:42,240
Speaker 3: trusted them because a lot of reporting is based on trusts,

269
00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:45,880
Speaker 3: and so I think it was a combination of of

270
00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:46,840
Speaker 3: all of those things.

271
00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:48,920
Speaker 4: But Washington journalism, you.

272
00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:54,480
Speaker 3: Know, does have a tendency to have instances of groupthink,

273
00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:58,800
Speaker 3: and I think this was one instance of that.

274
00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:03,560
Speaker 2: I'd like to that there were some psychological factors going

275
00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:09,520
Speaker 2: on to as reporters are actual human beings, and it's

276
00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:15,280
Speaker 2: very uncomfortable, I think, to talk about age or aging

277
00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:19,400
Speaker 2: and talk about sort of cognitive decline. I think we

278
00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:24,000
Speaker 2: have all experienced it, perhaps with older people in our lives,

279
00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:26,640
Speaker 2: our parents. It's like taking the car keys away from

280
00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:29,040
Speaker 2: your father. You'd like, don't want to deal with it

281
00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:34,520
Speaker 2: on some level. And every time people would mention it,

282
00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:38,960
Speaker 2: you know, like David Axelrod or rom Emmanuel, you know,

283
00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:44,600
Speaker 2: there was this backlash of sort of shame and trying

284
00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:49,000
Speaker 2: to make the people feel embarrassed for even bringing it up.

285
00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:53,640
Speaker 2: So I almost saw it as a microcosm of a larger,

286
00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:58,560
Speaker 2: just plain uncomfortable conversation. Do you see that at all?

287
00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,960
Speaker 1: First of all, it's impossible for me, and I did

288
00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:07,840
Speaker 1: cover this a bit, his cognitive decline or his age,

289
00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:12,000
Speaker 1: but it's impossible, knowing then what I know now, to

290
00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:14,560
Speaker 1: not feel humility when I look back at my coverage.

291
00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:17,640
Speaker 1: And even though Alex broke a ton of great stories

292
00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:21,600
Speaker 1: about this, we knew a fraction a fraction of what

293
00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:24,440
Speaker 1: we know now and what readers will learn. There is

294
00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:26,480
Speaker 1: group think. I mean, I look back at my coverage

295
00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:29,520
Speaker 1: of the Iraq War, and I was skeptical of the

296
00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:32,560
Speaker 1: WMD claim, the weapons of mass destruction claim, but in

297
00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:37,280
Speaker 1: retrospect not skeptical enough. But then, yeah, there is this discomfort.

298
00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:41,240
Speaker 1: And there is also this legacy in this town where

299
00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:47,000
Speaker 1: age is treated differently than in any other business.

300
00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:51,160
Speaker 2: You mean, in politics and politics in you.

301
00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:54,440
Speaker 1: Know, there are very few. There are no eighty five

302
00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:57,920
Speaker 1: year old or eighty year old anchors on teav right

303
00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:02,480
Speaker 1: are no, well no, I'm sure I'll be put on

304
00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:05,360
Speaker 1: the ice flow long before that, but but there are

305
00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:10,359
Speaker 1: usually there is usually in any other institution sports, uh,

306
00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:13,880
Speaker 1: at corporate America. For sure, there's a board of trustees

307
00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:16,240
Speaker 1: that they have to uh or that they have to

308
00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:19,600
Speaker 1: deal with, and on and on, Hollywood. I mean, there

309
00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:23,800
Speaker 1: is somebody else making the decision in politics. In politics,

310
00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:28,200
Speaker 1: really it's just the voters. There's nobody, especially if you're

311
00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:30,520
Speaker 1: very powerful, like the President of the United States, there's

312
00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:32,320
Speaker 1: no one that can say it's really time for you

313
00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:34,560
Speaker 1: to hang it up. I mean, we see this day

314
00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:35,720
Speaker 1: in day out in this town.

315
00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:38,440
Speaker 2: Well, look at Strom theremy strom Thurman.

316
00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:42,280
Speaker 1: Look at kayuh what was it named Kid Granger? Kid Granger,

317
00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:45,440
Speaker 1: who was the chair of the House Appropriations Committee, Diane

318
00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:49,720
Speaker 1: and Feinstein, there's the longlist, Thad Cochrane, John Conyers, and

319
00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:55,199
Speaker 1: and there is and it's it's obviously worse with President Biden,

320
00:17:56,080 --> 00:18:00,920
Speaker 1: but there is an an infrastructure, a family staff, people

321
00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:04,560
Speaker 1: making money off of that politician that are doing.

322
00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:06,920
Speaker 2: It ane empowering as that politician.

323
00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:10,680
Speaker 1: And all you have to do is snooker the voters.

324
00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:13,199
Speaker 1: That's all you have to do. There are people in

325
00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:16,560
Speaker 1: Congress right now who are too old to be in Congress.

326
00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:21,040
Speaker 1: But even raising that issue is still in this town

327
00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:26,080
Speaker 1: seen as rude or partisan. If you're depending on the

328
00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:28,320
Speaker 1: party of the person you're saying it about.

329
00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,879
Speaker 2: You know, you mentioned that you did try to cover

330
00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:34,200
Speaker 2: the story and concede you could have done more.

331
00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:35,840
Speaker 1: But it's been a lot more. To be clear, I

332
00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:36,679
Speaker 1: could have done a ton.

333
00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:38,480
Speaker 2: More, and we'll talk about that in a second. But

334
00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:41,520
Speaker 2: in September of twenty twenty, Jake, you interviewed Joe Biden.

335
00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:44,119
Speaker 2: You asked him point blank about his health. You said,

336
00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:47,240
Speaker 2: if you're elected, you would be the oldest president ever.

337
00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,600
Speaker 2: The American people have been lied to before by presidents

338
00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:55,600
Speaker 2: about the president's health. Fdr jfk Ronald Reagan. We don't

339
00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:58,520
Speaker 2: know still what happened with Donald Trump and his visit

340
00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:01,800
Speaker 2: to Walter Reid last year. Will you pledge that if

341
00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:06,800
Speaker 2: you're elected, you will be transparent about your health? What

342
00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:08,160
Speaker 2: did he say to you? Shake back?

343
00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:11,680
Speaker 1: Then he interrupted, He interrupted the question to say yes

344
00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:16,040
Speaker 1: that he would. And that's actually the very end of

345
00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,320
Speaker 1: the book is that scene is him promising that he

346
00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:23,000
Speaker 1: would be fully transparent and to be honest. Like obviously

347
00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:26,240
Speaker 1: we had all seen him older in the twenty nineteen

348
00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:30,000
Speaker 1: twenty two en campaign. He seemed fine in that interview.

349
00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:32,560
Speaker 1: I only had one more interview with him in twenty twenty,

350
00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:36,800
Speaker 1: where he seemed like twenty years older but still functioning.

351
00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:40,840
Speaker 1: But what we learned in our reporting was that starting

352
00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:44,000
Speaker 1: in about twenty nineteen, twenty twenty, if not before after

353
00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:47,040
Speaker 1: the death of Bo, there were basically two Bidens. There

354
00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:51,239
Speaker 1: was Fine Salvagable, Fine on the stomp Joe Biden, and

355
00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:55,200
Speaker 1: then there was non functioning Biden. The non functioning Biden

356
00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:58,320
Speaker 1: is the one who couldn't remember the names of top aides,

357
00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:00,960
Speaker 1: who lost his train of thought in a way that

358
00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:03,280
Speaker 1: was disturbing. We all lose our train of thought, but

359
00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:07,080
Speaker 1: beyond just normal losing her train of thought, and a

360
00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:10,479
Speaker 1: Joe Biden who was adult, and that non functioning Biden,

361
00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:14,800
Speaker 1: who I did not see really in twenty nineteen twenty twenty,

362
00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:18,040
Speaker 1: started showing up more and more behind the scenes, really

363
00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:20,240
Speaker 1: in a pronounced way in twenty twenty three, twenty twenty four,

364
00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:23,000
Speaker 1: and that's what Alex and I learned. He was not

365
00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:26,879
Speaker 1: transparent about it. He violated that pledge to the American people,

366
00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:29,520
Speaker 1: and in fact, there was an infrastructure around him that

367
00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:31,320
Speaker 1: worked to hide it.

368
00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:34,159
Speaker 2: I want to talk about that infrastructure in a moment,

369
00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:38,280
Speaker 2: but first, preparing for this interview, some people are pointing

370
00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,840
Speaker 2: to a conversation interview you had with Laura Trump in

371
00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:46,239
Speaker 2: twenty twenty, and she talked about Biden's mental acuity, and

372
00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:50,119
Speaker 2: I'm sure you remember this. You believed and said you

373
00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:53,720
Speaker 2: felt she was mocking his stutter. She said she didn't

374
00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:56,439
Speaker 2: even know he had a stutter, but was really talking

375
00:20:56,480 --> 00:21:00,600
Speaker 2: about his cognitive struggles. You dismissed her, Jake, I think

376
00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:04,200
Speaker 2: in a rather taciturn way, with all due respect, having

377
00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:09,360
Speaker 2: watched the interview looking back, would you have handled it differently?

378
00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:13,200
Speaker 1: Of course, of course. I mean on a conversation about aging,

379
00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:17,040
Speaker 1: what Laura Trump said aged well and what I said

380
00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:23,320
Speaker 1: aged poorly one hundred percent. Now, she obviously saw the

381
00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:27,080
Speaker 1: non functioning Biden in a way that I had not

382
00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:30,560
Speaker 1: really seen at that point. She was right, I was wrong,

383
00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:31,840
Speaker 1: one hundred percent.

384
00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:34,040
Speaker 3: I would also just want to add, like, the Joe

385
00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:36,280
Speaker 3: Biden of twenty twenty three is different than the Joe

386
00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:39,320
Speaker 3: Biden of twenty twenty and that clip is from twenty twenty, right,

387
00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:42,439
Speaker 3: I know it is, so I just wanted to add that, like,

388
00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:46,520
Speaker 3: there there was a much more pronounced decline beginning late

389
00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:56,119
Speaker 3: in the presidency.

390
00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:59,639
Speaker 2: Hi, everyone, it's Katie couric. You know I'm always on

391
00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:03,720
Speaker 2: the go between running my media company, hosting my podcast,

392
00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:06,800
Speaker 2: and of course covering the news, and I know that

393
00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:09,440
Speaker 2: to keep doing what I love, I need to start

394
00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:13,320
Speaker 2: caring for what gets me there, my feet. That's why

395
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,920
Speaker 2: I decided to try the Good Feet stores personalized arch

396
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:20,200
Speaker 2: support system. I met with a Good Feet arch support

397
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:24,160
Speaker 2: specialist and after a personalized fitting, I left the store

398
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:28,080
Speaker 2: with my three step system designed to improve comfort, balance

399
00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:32,560
Speaker 2: and support. My feet means and back are thanking me already.

400
00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:36,639
Speaker 2: Visit goodfeet dot com to learn more, find the nearest store,

401
00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:50,439
Speaker 2: or book your own free personalized fitting. I'm curious in

402
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:55,119
Speaker 2: this bifurcated media environment that we all live in now

403
00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:58,880
Speaker 2: if you think, if you think about it, I don't

404
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:03,280
Speaker 2: know why I'm psycho you guys, but I wonder if

405
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:08,480
Speaker 2: the coverage on Fox, which was particularly cruel I think

406
00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:13,880
Speaker 2: towards Joe Biden, mocking his falling, making snarky comments about

407
00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:17,440
Speaker 2: when he seemed to be confused. I wondered if that

408
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:21,040
Speaker 2: might have influenced you a bit, make you on a

409
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:25,879
Speaker 2: human level not want to cover his decline because Fox

410
00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:28,520
Speaker 2: was doing it so mercilessly.

411
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:32,399
Speaker 3: I think there were definitely some people that didn't want

412
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:36,119
Speaker 3: to give oxygen to people that were acting in bad faith.

413
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:42,320
Speaker 3: I'd also say that there was there's a difference between

414
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 3: making a meme of him stumbling up the stairs of

415
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:50,040
Speaker 3: Air Force one and reporting actually what people inside the

416
00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:54,639
Speaker 3: White House were feeling about his limitations, which is what

417
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:57,479
Speaker 3: I was trying to do, Jake was trying to do,

418
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:00,919
Speaker 3: and what we eventually were able to find the breakthrough

419
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:05,640
Speaker 3: with this book. But yeah, I agree that, you know, Fox,

420
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:07,640
Speaker 3: you know, some people in Fox are taking a big

421
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:11,280
Speaker 3: victory lap now, But I do think and there are

422
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 3: some good reporters there and people that I like, but

423
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:18,640
Speaker 3: you know, the fact is that they were not reporting

424
00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:21,640
Speaker 3: stuff inside the room about how people in the Biden

425
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 3: White House were feeling. And I just I think they

426
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 3: were aggressive on this issue. But I do think there

427
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 3: is a difference in those two things.

428
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:35,920
Speaker 2: The kind of reporting they were doing. And I'm curious

429
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 2: Jake to get your take on that.

430
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:40,720
Speaker 1: I actually don't look at Fox coverage that way. I

431
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:44,320
Speaker 1: actually look at Fox coverage. I mean, I follow progressive

432
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,840
Speaker 1: and I follow conservative media to see where the holes

433
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 1: are in my coverage. And Fox would report things and

434
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:54,199
Speaker 1: I would say behind the scenes, I'd be like, is

435
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 1: that did that happen? Is that true? Why aren't we

436
00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,680
Speaker 1: reporting that? That's I don't look at Fox the way

437
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:03,480
Speaker 1: that that it's being suggested. I did cover I know

438
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:06,320
Speaker 1: this now because of all the challenges. I did cover

439
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 1: Biden's stumbling at the Air Force Academy commencement. I did

440
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:13,400
Speaker 1: cover biden falling off. No, I didn't. I was off

441
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:15,639
Speaker 1: the day for that he fell off his bike. But

442
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:19,119
Speaker 1: the other one, there was another fall. What was the

443
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 1: other fall?

444
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:21,120
Speaker 4: Up the Air Force one?

445
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,440
Speaker 1: I've covered his falls, and I will say that, as

446
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:31,520
Speaker 1: Alex said, there's a tremendous difference between looking at an image,

447
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 1: however important it was at the time, and however more

448
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,639
Speaker 1: important it is in retrospect of Joe Biden falling and

449
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 1: saying something's going on here, right. There is a difference

450
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 1: between that and Alex and I talking to more than

451
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:48,439
Speaker 1: two hundred mostly Democratic sources, almost all after the election

452
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:52,639
Speaker 1: and saying, listen to what these Democrats are telling us

453
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 1: about how much worse it is behind the scenes.

454
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,480
Speaker 2: Right. But at the time, that could have signaled, hey,

455
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 2: I think something might be wrong here. I need to

456
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 2: dig more. And that's something that you have acknowledged.

457
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I yes, one hundred percent. I will say also, though,

458
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 1: one of the things that we have learned in our

459
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:14,200
Speaker 1: reporting is that the Biden white House, led by the president,

460
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 1: first Lady and Hunter and also top aids, they were

461
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:20,680
Speaker 1: lying not just to the media, they were lying not

462
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,919
Speaker 1: just to the public. They were lying to other Democrats.

463
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,320
Speaker 1: They were lying to donors, they were lying to cabinet secretaries,

464
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 1: they were lying to democratic lawmakers. We talked to one

465
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:34,119
Speaker 1: Democrat and this is in the book, who said he

466
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,360
Speaker 1: would call and he would be told he's fine, he's fine,

467
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:39,720
Speaker 1: he's fine. And then after Biden dropped out, this Democrat

468
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:41,919
Speaker 1: sat down with the President and the first Lady is

469
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,399
Speaker 1: a very high ranking person but didn't want to be named,

470
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 1: and said he's not fucking fine. Jill had to pop

471
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 1: in and finish his sentences. As we saw in the

472
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:55,239
Speaker 1: view not long ago, he's not fucking fine. So the

473
00:26:55,320 --> 00:27:01,919
Speaker 1: deceit was the main issue. But yes, journalists should have

474
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,920
Speaker 1: been poking and priding most especially believe me, there's no

475
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 1: one that flagellates me more than me. And yes, of

476
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:09,480
Speaker 1: course I could have done more, and I should have.

477
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 3: I just want to just add one last point, which is,

478
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,160
Speaker 3: you know, the media loves talking about itself.

479
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:18,920
Speaker 2: Oh yes, I know, and reading about it and.

480
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:19,880
Speaker 4: Reading about itself.

481
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 3: But I just think it's important to say, like, yep,

482
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:29,199
Speaker 3: media can't even organize a happy hour if you've ever

483
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:32,719
Speaker 3: been in a newsroom, right, Like, they have trouble organizing that.

484
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:35,919
Speaker 3: Like the people that did the cover up with the

485
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 3: people close to the president.

486
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:42,919
Speaker 2: Well let's talk about them, the enablers or the infrastructure

487
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:45,399
Speaker 2: what you refer it as the polup bureau.

488
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 1: Well, it's not our term. That's other people in the

489
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:49,400
Speaker 1: administration came up with that term. But it's a good term.

490
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 2: Yes, okay, Well whoever came up with it, It includes

491
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 2: Mike Donaldan, Steve Rochetti, and Bruce.

492
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:58,360
Speaker 1: Reid, mainly Donaldin and Rochette.

493
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 2: Okay, tell us about why it's so important to understand

494
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 2: the role they played and the dynamics of that politbureau,

495
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:09,880
Speaker 2: if you will.

496
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 3: You had a group of true believers of that had

497
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:19,440
Speaker 3: been with Biden for decades, that believed he had been

498
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 3: you know, I think we call him the book and

499
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,119
Speaker 3: this was Jake's idea was sort of the theology of

500
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,959
Speaker 3: Biden or the Biden theology, and they were the most

501
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 3: reverential followers of that theology, that he could always come back,

502
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 3: that he would, that everyone always counts him out, and.

503
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 4: When you're surrounded by people.

504
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 3: In some ways, they loved him too much and as

505
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 3: a result, they didn't like bringing him bad news. They

506
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 3: didn't like, you know, telling truth to power, but not

507
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 3: sometimes out of fear, because Biden did have like some

508
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 3: temperament temper and had some term of issues, but also

509
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 3: I think just like out of love for him. And

510
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 3: in some ways it's their representative of you know, like

511
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 3: any the representative of the.

512
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 4: Darks of how loyal there's a dark side of loyalty.

513
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 2: Do you think that they were afraid of losing their jobs?

514
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 2: I mean, how much it was affection for Biden and

515
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 2: how much was just job security?

516
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, putting a percentage on it is difficult, but it

517
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 3: was definitely both. And we report in the book that

518
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 3: Mike Donalan made several million dollars off this campaign, and

519
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 3: you know, ste Verschetti also deeply wanted to become chief

520
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 3: of staff. I don't think you can separate out their

521
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 3: self interests from those emotional feelings.

522
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 1: But they were zealots, as Alex notes in this Theology

523
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 1: of Joe Biden, just like you can't count him out,

524
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 1: he can beat anything. The stuff about Biden the public likes,

525
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 1: you know, like the kid with the stutter, the guy

526
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 1: who had the horrible tragedy in his family when he

527
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,120
Speaker 1: was newly elected, the the you know, the guy that

528
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 1: had two brain aneurysms and was told he might never

529
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 1: talk again, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, the stuff,

530
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 1: the get he calls it. Get up. That's what Biden

531
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 1: calls it. Get up. His dad always told him get up.

532
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 1: That part of him is a charming part of him,

533
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 1: It's an American part of him. But it also led

534
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 1: to the fact that he thought that at the end

535
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 1: of the day he was indispensable. Only he could beat Trump,

536
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 1: only he was the right man for the time to

537
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 1: face down Putin, And it led to a hubris. I mean,

538
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 1: this whole story is just so tragic, and it really is.

539
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 1: I mean, I know everybody thinks their stories, what they

540
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 1: write about is Shakespearean, but there is just an element

541
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 1: of centuries old drama to this. The man who rises

542
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 1: to the top to save the nation from Donald Trump

543
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 1: and guarantees the reelection of Donald Trump by denying his

544
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 1: own fallibility.

545
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 2: And his own hubris, right, or doesn't recognize his own hubris,

546
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 2: I think, and I think that was part of Joe

547
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 2: Biden's appeal, is he seemed like a you know, a

548
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 2: regular Joe, right. But in some quarters it's also viewed

549
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 2: as he had a real chip on his shoulder too,

550
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 2: you know, he never quite felt embraced by sort of

551
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 2: the elite, the hyper intellectual sort of people within the

552
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 2: Democratic Party, at least that's what I've read.

553
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that chip had grown to the size

554
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 3: of a boulder by the time that he's he's older,

555
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 3: and you know, in some ways, and people around him

556
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 3: have told us, you know, the you know, Obama basically

557
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 3: choosing Hillary over him as his Busney successor in twenty

558
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:43,959
Speaker 3: sixteen just made it even bigger, right, like he just

559
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 3: what he wanted credit.

560
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 4: And you know, you talk to the.

561
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 3: Biden people and you ask about like the age stuff,

562
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 3: you know, back in twenty twenty three, twenty twenty four,

563
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 3: and they would just be like all presidents get two terms,

564
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,720
Speaker 3: you know, like as if it's like just it was

565
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 3: to him, he deserved it.

566
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 2: And yet he did make that statement, flanked by Corey

567
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 2: Booker and Gretchen Whitmer.

568
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 4: The bridge.

569
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 2: You know who else was Kamala Harris, Yes, Kamala Harris.

570
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 2: How could I forget? And said I will be a

571
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 2: bridge to a new generation Now implicitly and explicitly, I

572
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 2: think that meant he was going to be a one

573
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 2: term president. But understandably, Jake, I'm sure he didn't want

574
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 2: to say that because he didn't want to be a

575
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 2: lame duck at the beginning of his presidency.

576
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, but everybody had the impression that he was going

577
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 1: to be a one termer. And one of the reasons

578
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 1: was even before the bridge was in December twenty nineteen,

579
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 1: before the primaries began, four different senior staffers to Biden,

580
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 1: to the Biden campaign did a what Ryan Lizza, the

581
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 1: reporter for Politico who reported this he thought was a

582
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 1: strategic leak, which was they called him and said he's

583
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 1: only going to be a one term president. It was

584
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 1: basically part of the selling point because they knew people

585
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 1: were concerned about Biden's age, so the idea was, Hey,

586
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 1: he's only going to be a one term president. He's

587
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 1: only going to be a one.

588
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 2: Term president, which sounds very craven, doesn't it.

589
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, it just sounds like they were making

590
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 1: a promise that they weren't going to honor. But it

591
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 1: wasn't just like an impression. It was created by the

592
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 1: Biden campaign and by Biden himself. People thought that that

593
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 1: was going to happen, and then enough things happened, including

594
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 1: a less than horrible although still not good midterm election

595
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty two, that he thought that's it, I'm

596
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:36,760
Speaker 1: going to run again. And there was no process. There

597
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 1: were people behind the scenes, we haven't needed done in

598
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 1: the book of White House senior advisor saying like, what

599
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,720
Speaker 1: are we doing here? There was a polster, John Anzelone saying,

600
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 1: I assume we're going to pull for this. We're going

601
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 1: to see, like what the vulnerabilities are, see if this

602
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 1: is actually a good idea running a second running a

603
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 1: second term. At the end of the second term, he

604
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 1: would be eighty six, right closer to ninety than eighty.

605
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,960
Speaker 1: That's literally what they were proposing. They still argue to

606
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 1: this day he could have done It's crazy, but in

607
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:06,959
Speaker 1: any case, and Anita told Angeloni, no, no, we're not

608
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 1: pulling for this. The decision has been made.

609
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 2: So was Anita done part of the problem and her husband,

610
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:14,799
Speaker 2: I know, yeah, Bob Bauer.

611
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:16,719
Speaker 3: I don't think anyone in that in our circle was

612
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:19,239
Speaker 3: not part of the problem, right, And the fact is

613
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 3: that Nia Dune, even if she had private concerns, no

614
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 3: one got in the president's face and said this is

615
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:25,800
Speaker 3: a bad idea.

616
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 1: Now.

617
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 3: I think some of that is on the president for

618
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:33,879
Speaker 3: not creating a culture in which dissent was welcomed or embraced.

619
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 3: But also I think it's on the people in their circle,

620
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 3: who also, to your point earlier, had like a vested

621
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 3: self interest in keeping this going. So you know, they're

622
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:47,360
Speaker 3: the true believers that believe he could have been president

623
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 3: eighty six. And there are people that had concerns and

624
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 3: they also never you know, as Jack was referring to

625
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 3: this other Democrat earlier who also told us, there's a

626
00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 3: point when you have to Yes, it's the president's decision,

627
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:01,279
Speaker 3: but there there's a point when you have to sit

628
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,520
Speaker 3: your principal down and say you're not up for this,

629
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 3: and no one did that.

630
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 2: I wonder, Jake, if you experienced what I did. I

631
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 2: saw him at an event and he seemed to be

632
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 2: very happy to see me. I've known him for probably

633
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:17,319
Speaker 2: even longer than you have, Jake, because I'm older than

634
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:22,319
Speaker 2: you are. But you know, I had long conversations with

635
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,800
Speaker 2: him after Tim Russert's funeral. You know, I've just covered

636
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:27,640
Speaker 2: him for a long time too. And he said I

637
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 2: miss you, And I said, if you miss me, let's

638
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:32,799
Speaker 2: do let's sit down and do an interview. You can

639
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 2: spend more time with me, and he said great. And

640
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:38,799
Speaker 2: then after he spoke, he came back to me and said,

641
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 2: I really want to do an interview with you. Well,

642
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:44,239
Speaker 2: I thought, great, you know, and then I talked to

643
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:49,319
Speaker 2: his press team Kareem Yeah, and then I talked to

644
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 2: some other people who were there. I wrote to Anita

645
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:56,879
Speaker 2: Dunn the run around I got sending me to some

646
00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:00,440
Speaker 2: twenty six year old kid who runs digital for them.

647
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 2: It was borderline insulting first off, but secondly, it was

648
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 2: so clear that they had absolute zero intention of allowing

649
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:12,880
Speaker 2: him to sit down to have a conversation with me.

650
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,720
Speaker 2: Did you face similar frustrations?

651
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 1: Look, the last time I had an interview with him

652
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 1: was in October twenty twenty two. He seemed super old.

653
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 1: It was only fifteen minutes they.

654
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 2: Did fifteen minutes. I mean, how much can you talk

655
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:28,319
Speaker 2: about him? Fifteen minutes?

656
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:30,799
Speaker 1: Not a lot. And it was obviously in the middle

657
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 1: of the day. It wasn't it wasn't in the evening,

658
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,799
Speaker 1: and you know, you can't really that's not a good

659
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:38,760
Speaker 1: You can't really do a good interview in fifteen minutes,

660
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 1: especially because he's rather long winded. And then it became clear.

661
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:44,840
Speaker 1: I mean, look, this is the thing. We talked to

662
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 1: people in the White House, communications people in the White House,

663
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 1: and somebody told me that the interview he did with

664
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:53,759
Speaker 1: me in twenty twenty two he could not have done

665
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:56,879
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty three. A senior White House person told

666
00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 1: me he was not capable of doing it in twenty

667
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:01,279
Speaker 1: twenty three. Again, I wish I could tell you who

668
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:03,359
Speaker 1: that was. It told me that it's a name, you know.

669
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 1: But I mean, there was just a behind the scenes

670
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:09,919
Speaker 1: and acknowledgment of this, And that's part of that's why

671
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,960
Speaker 1: we say it's a cover up, because if it wasn't

672
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 1: to cover up, what do you call that decision to

673
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 1: not let you do an interview with him, even though

674
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 1: he says he wants to or not forget me, I mean,

675
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:22,839
Speaker 1: or not do a serious sit down with anyone other

676
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 1: than I mean, what interviews did he do in twenty

677
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 1: twenty three, twenty twenty four. Very few. In twenty twenty four,

678
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 1: it was only after he was fighting for his job

679
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:33,279
Speaker 1: that he sat down with Sephanopoulos and Lester.

680
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 2: And they did a lot of podcasts that were kind

681
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 2: of very friendly Shafy to talk about things like his

682
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 2: Irish herited sure, things like that, not about public policy.

683
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 1: He did do a couple interviews that I have to

684
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 1: say were good. I mean, it wasn't like he was

685
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 1: not capable of ever doing it. His interview on John

686
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 1: Stewart in the spring of twenty twenty four was fine.

687
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 1: His interview with Howard Stern was interesting, although you know,

688
00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 1: it wasn't like policy probing. It was like get to

689
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:00,920
Speaker 1: know Joe Biden.

690
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:04,200
Speaker 2: What about the interviews he did with George and Lester,

691
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 2: those weren't exactly there.

692
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 1: Were disasters, to be honest. I mean, and you know,

693
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 1: George asked him, have you seen the debate and his

694
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 1: answer was I don't think so.

695
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 2: We'll talk about the debate in a moment, because you know,

696
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:21,919
Speaker 2: you were moderating that well, I remember, yeah, yeah, I'm

697
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:24,279
Speaker 2: sure you remember it well, but I want to ask

698
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 2: you about sort of the inner circle a little more.

699
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:28,879
Speaker 2: What about Jill Biden's role in all this?

700
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:31,319
Speaker 4: I think it was.

701
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:35,839
Speaker 3: I think other people within the White House have called

702
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:38,600
Speaker 3: her one of the most powerful first ladies in American history.

703
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 3: And it's remarkable also because she used to be a

704
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:46,480
Speaker 3: reluctant political spouse. She has this anecdote in her memoir

705
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 3: where when Biden was considering running in two thousand and four,

706
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:53,359
Speaker 3: she went through the sort of meeting with the consultants

707
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:57,200
Speaker 3: wearing a bikini and a sharpie written no on her

708
00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:00,440
Speaker 3: stomach because she was like, we are not running for as.

709
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:04,640
Speaker 2: One does, so well, good on her right.

710
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:11,280
Speaker 3: She made her views clear, and you know, but that changes.

711
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:14,920
Speaker 3: By twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen, she is an

712
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 3: enthusiastic political spouse, and she sort of replaces Joe Biden's

713
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:22,280
Speaker 3: sister of Val Biden, who had been the campaign manager

714
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 3: for some many of his campaigns. You know, Val Biden

715
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 3: is skeptical of him running for president because of the

716
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:30,160
Speaker 3: toll it was going to take on the family, given

717
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 3: all of Hunter's problems and Ashley's problems, and what they've

718
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:37,279
Speaker 3: been through with Bo's death, but Jill becomes sort of

719
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:42,359
Speaker 3: a much more enthusiastic uh and pushing force. Her top aid,

720
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 3: who is mentioned along the book, you know, becomes a

721
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 3: deputy campaign manager on the twenty twenty campaign, eventually becomes

722
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:52,880
Speaker 3: one of they, by the accounts of people inside the

723
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:55,840
Speaker 3: White House, becomes one of the most powerful people in

724
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:59,840
Speaker 3: the entire Biden administration. Is Jill Biden's top aid that

725
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:04,239
Speaker 3: he had control over personnel. He is vetting people constantly

726
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:07,320
Speaker 3: for loyalty. People referred to him as the loyalty Police.

727
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 4: And you know, Joe and.

728
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:15,399
Speaker 3: Jill, I think they have this very like authentic love

729
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 3: for each other. But so if you have people whispering

730
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 3: in their ear this person's loyal, this person's not loyal,

731
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 3: it creates this culture of paranoia.

732
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:29,360
Speaker 2: Yes, you know, a lot of conversations I had with people,

733
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:33,840
Speaker 2: both in the political world and outside it about Jill Biden.

734
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 2: And there's so much obvious speculation involved here and projection.

735
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:41,920
Speaker 2: But so many people were like, how can she not

736
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 2: protect her husband?

737
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:47,760
Speaker 1: She thought she was She thought she was protecting her husband.

738
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 1: She thought she was protecting Hunter from a Republican president

739
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:54,719
Speaker 1: who was going to prosecute him. She thought she was

740
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:57,200
Speaker 1: protecting the country from Donald Trump.

741
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:00,480
Speaker 2: How big a factor was the Hunter stuff?

742
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:03,280
Speaker 1: I think it was considerable. I think Hunter was driving

743
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:06,239
Speaker 1: the decision making for the family in a way that

744
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 1: people he was almost like a chief of staff of

745
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:09,360
Speaker 1: the family.

746
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 2: Does that strike you as pretty bizarre?

747
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:17,400
Speaker 1: It's bizarre because I think he is provably, demonstrably unethical, sleazy,

748
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:19,400
Speaker 1: and prone to horrible decisions.

749
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,439
Speaker 2: I mean, tell me how you really feel well, I mean.

750
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 1: I just look at the record. I mean he after

751
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:29,360
Speaker 1: his brother died, he cheated on his wife with his

752
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:32,439
Speaker 1: brother's widow and then got her addicted to crack. That's

753
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:35,279
Speaker 1: just one thing I could say. I mean it there.

754
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:39,319
Speaker 1: I don't have a lot of personal regard for him,

755
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 1: and just based on having nothing to do with I

756
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:44,319
Speaker 1: barely have ever met him. I've met him like once

757
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:48,440
Speaker 1: or twice. But I knew Bo Bo was a great,

758
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:49,479
Speaker 1: upstanding guy.

759
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 2: I knew him too.

760
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:54,160
Speaker 1: Really a real loss for the country too, not just

761
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:56,759
Speaker 1: for his family, for the country. But Hunter is not

762
00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:01,759
Speaker 1: that And the idea of him drive the family car

763
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 1: as it were, is just really really questionable. But one

764
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:07,600
Speaker 1: of the things we heard from somebody who is close

765
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:10,880
Speaker 1: to the family. Shall we say is that denial is

766
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 1: a big part of the family ethos. There is a

767
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 1: you know, there's all of these my word. I'll give

768
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 1: you my word. As a Biden that's a thing that

769
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:20,360
Speaker 1: President Biden likes to say. A less well known family

770
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:25,280
Speaker 1: maxim is don't call fat people fat, which means don't

771
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:27,920
Speaker 1: acknowledge ugly truths. I didn't make it up. It's not

772
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:30,439
Speaker 1: a nice maxim. I don't use it. But that's don't

773
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 1: call fat people fat, and it means it means don't

774
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 1: acknowledge ugly truths. It means that's why they hid bo

775
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 1: Biden's illness. It's why they didn't really acknowledge Hunter's problems

776
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:44,440
Speaker 1: until it was too late. And it's why they didn't,

777
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:48,720
Speaker 1: in my view and Alex's view, acknowledged Joe Biden's problems

778
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:51,480
Speaker 1: until the country saw them and said, oh my god.

779
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:54,239
Speaker 3: Well, and I'd say that, and there's still denile. One

780
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:55,960
Speaker 3: thing I would just want to add about the Hunter

781
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:59,840
Speaker 3: piece of it is, I don't think you can understand

782
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 3: why Hunter was so important if you don't understand that

783
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:06,360
Speaker 3: Hunter is the only living person from the accident in

784
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:12,399
Speaker 3: nineteen seventy two. Right, Bo, his wife, his daughter, they're

785
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:19,680
Speaker 3: all dead. Hunters the last thing of this cataclysmic, searingtic,

786
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 3: traumatic part of Joe Biden's life, and he almost lost them,

787
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:27,040
Speaker 3: right like a Hunter. He almost lost Hunter too, because

788
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 3: he was off the rails. And you know Hunter, I

789
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 3: think at times abuse that relationship, relationship, and there was

790
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:42,320
Speaker 3: this feeling among Biden's aids that you know, if Biden

791
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 3: doesn't keep like Hunter would say something and say and

792
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 3: Joe was scared Hunter would commit suicide if he didn't

793
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:49,799
Speaker 3: do what Hunter wanted.

794
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 1: Or overdose accidentally. But yeah, that he would be driven

795
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 1: to I mean by Hunter. Biden has said this publicly

796
00:43:57,320 --> 00:43:59,799
Speaker 1: that he thought that the prosecutions of him were too

797
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 1: him to suicide or overdose to destroy his dad. And

798
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 1: that is our reporting suggests that that was one of

799
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 1: the main reasons for his deterioration.

800
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 2: I was going to ask you about that, the stress

801
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:22,040
Speaker 2: of Hunter situation, the tremendous grief over the loss of

802
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:29,400
Speaker 2: Bo from glioblastoma. Do you think that those two huge

803
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:34,760
Speaker 2: life events did contribute to his decline.

804
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:39,279
Speaker 3: That's what everyone around him has told us, is that

805
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 3: the Joe Biden of twenty fourteen is different than the

806
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 3: Joe Biden of twenty nineteen. In between Bo obviously died,

807
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:47,600
Speaker 3: and then the Joe Biden twenty nineteen is not the

808
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:50,400
Speaker 3: same as Joe Biden of late twenty twenty three. And

809
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 3: in that time Hunter was under prosecution from his dad's

810
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:57,040
Speaker 3: own justice department and had a plea deal unravel and

811
00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:00,880
Speaker 3: then was headed towards a trial which was ended up

812
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 3: and being in the same month as that debate, a

813
00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:07,440
Speaker 3: trial that exposed the family started laundry to the entire world.

814
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, the three moments that people close to President Biden

815
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 1: have said just were utterly destroying of his psyche. Was

816
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 1: Bo dying in twenty fifteen. One aid to him described

817
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:26,840
Speaker 1: it like pouring water on sand, just to watch psychically

818
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 1: what happened to Joe Biden. And then, as Alex just said,

819
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:33,520
Speaker 1: the plea deal and then the guilty verdict, two of

820
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:36,680
Speaker 1: the moments that were just like he in twenty twenty

821
00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:38,839
Speaker 1: three and twenty twenty four where he just seemed to

822
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:44,080
Speaker 1: melt and lose it and we look, we're not unsympathetic

823
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:48,319
Speaker 1: to that. It must have been horrible. You've lost a

824
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:50,799
Speaker 1: wife and you've lost two children, and you think you're

825
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:54,319
Speaker 1: going to lose a third. I can't imagine going through that.

826
00:45:54,600 --> 00:46:00,319
Speaker 1: It's absolutely devastating. But that is what happened to him

827
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 1: and why when he stepped on that stage, his attlement

828
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:07,279
Speaker 1: was there for everybody to see because it had been

829
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:11,320
Speaker 1: happening for at that point at least a couple of years.

830
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:14,720
Speaker 3: And I think, are you know, I think we both

831
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:16,719
Speaker 3: have sympathy, and the people around him have sympathy, and

832
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:20,120
Speaker 3: I think that also contributed to why people weren't willing

833
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:23,480
Speaker 3: to get in his face and say tell him hard truth,

834
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:25,680
Speaker 3: tell him hard truth, because like he's been through so

835
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 3: much and everything, which is true. But also it's I

836
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:33,480
Speaker 3: think what some people in the arcycle laws side of

837
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:35,880
Speaker 3: is it wasn't just about him.

838
00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:37,040
Speaker 4: He was president.

839
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 2: Hi everyone, it's me Katie Couric. You know, if you've

840
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:49,879
Speaker 2: been following me on social media, you know I love

841
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 2: to cook, or at least try, especially alongside some of

842
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:56,840
Speaker 2: my favorite chefs and foodies like Benny Blanco, Jake Cohen,

843
00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:01,360
Speaker 2: Lighty Hoyke, Alison Roman and ininegart So. I started a

844
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:04,960
Speaker 2: free newsletter called Good Taste to share recipes, tips and

845
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:08,800
Speaker 2: kitchen mustaves. Just sign up at Katie Couric dot com

846
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:12,040
Speaker 2: slash good Taste. That's k A T I E C

847
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:15,760
Speaker 2: O U R I C dot com slash good Taste.

848
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:21,879
Speaker 2: I promised your taste buds will be happy you did.

849
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:33,000
Speaker 2: Did anybody at any point you guys say anything to

850
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:39,239
Speaker 2: him like mister President or Joe or honey aka chill,

851
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:43,560
Speaker 2: you know, are you really up up to this?

852
00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:44,480
Speaker 1: That?

853
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:46,759
Speaker 2: Was there ever even a conversation about I.

854
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:51,239
Speaker 3: Mean, the closest is blinken second favorite say Tony blink

855
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:55,520
Speaker 3: and ask them in twenty twenty three, are you sure? Basically,

856
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 3: basically you're going to be eighty six by the end

857
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:00,719
Speaker 3: of the next term. You should you want to run?

858
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:02,839
Speaker 1: But it wasn't. I don't think you can.

859
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:04,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's gentle.

860
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:06,600
Speaker 1: I mean there were questions, you know, there were conversations

861
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:12,240
Speaker 1: like that, but nothing never serious. Yeah, nothing like nothing

862
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:17,120
Speaker 1: like what frankly, my wife would say if I were

863
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:19,960
Speaker 1: losing it and it was time for me to retire

864
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:24,799
Speaker 1: from reporting or TV or whatever. Like. I have a

865
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:27,040
Speaker 1: very direct wife. It's one of the things that's great

866
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:29,760
Speaker 1: about her. It's I recommend it. When you find a spouse,

867
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:31,440
Speaker 1: Alex get one who's going to tell you the truth.

868
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 1: It's not always fun, but it's incredibly valuable. And yeah,

869
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:36,520
Speaker 1: nothing like that.

870
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 2: That's why I think everybody wonders about Jill Biden, like

871
00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:42,640
Speaker 2: did she was she enjoying the job too? I mean,

872
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:47,239
Speaker 2: was it something beyond hunter? Was it something beyond protecting

873
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:51,879
Speaker 2: her husband? Was there something that understandably? And I think

874
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:56,080
Speaker 2: you can appreciate someone feeling this way, like I'm enjoying

875
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:58,120
Speaker 2: this gig. I don't really want to give it up.

876
00:48:58,239 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 1: It's a good gig.

877
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:04,839
Speaker 3: Some people referred to as she got Jackie oed that

878
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 3: she fell in love with the life of being first Lady.

879
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:11,640
Speaker 3: They noted that she had three Vogue covers in four years,

880
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:17,280
Speaker 3: which was as many as Michelle Obama had in eight years,

881
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 3: and that she did and Bernal her top aid. They

882
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:26,080
Speaker 3: would they were planning in twenty twenty two, all the

883
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:27,799
Speaker 3: things they were going to do, all the trips she

884
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:30,680
Speaker 3: was going to do in the second term. They would

885
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:33,480
Speaker 3: frequently say, we'll do that in the second term. So yeah,

886
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:36,840
Speaker 3: I think there's also like she fell in love a

887
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:39,160
Speaker 3: little bit with the life. According to people around her.

888
00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:42,000
Speaker 3: It's not like our opinion where it's the people that

889
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:43,360
Speaker 3: we talked to That's what they said.

890
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:45,959
Speaker 1: Can I just say one other thing that does touch

891
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:49,720
Speaker 1: on this, which is one of the reasons Barack Obama

892
00:49:49,760 --> 00:49:53,400
Speaker 1: President Obama did not support Joe Biden running for president

893
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:56,600
Speaker 1: in twenty sixteen, is because he saw what happened to

894
00:49:56,680 --> 00:49:59,400
Speaker 1: him after bo died, and he saw that he wasn't

895
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:06,400
Speaker 1: emotional only ready to do that. And so Biden Biden's

896
00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:10,920
Speaker 1: resentment towards Obama and David Pluff and David Axelron and

897
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:14,920
Speaker 1: David Seamus, who was Obama's polster. These are three Davids

898
00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:18,800
Speaker 1: that Obama basically dispatched to say bad idea under president

899
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:22,120
Speaker 1: in sixteen twenty sixteen. And you know there are other

900
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:24,960
Speaker 1: reasons too. Of course, Hillary and Bernie had a lot

901
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:30,759
Speaker 1: of the support sewed up already for various reasons. But

902
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:33,879
Speaker 1: the anger and the resentment that Biden felt about that,

903
00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:36,960
Speaker 1: which he still feels to this day, that he wrote

904
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:40,200
Speaker 1: about in his memoir. I think he says something like

905
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:43,520
Speaker 1: the president was not supportive, not encouraging, and not encouraging,

906
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:47,080
Speaker 1: which is it's a big thing to put in your

907
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:52,440
Speaker 1: in your in your memoir that is so animating that

908
00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:55,120
Speaker 1: you're not on my team. I'm not going to listen

909
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:57,080
Speaker 1: to you, And people would say, when people would say

910
00:50:57,120 --> 00:50:59,919
Speaker 1: to Barack Obama in twenty twenty three and twenty twenty four,

911
00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:02,840
Speaker 1: can't you say something to him, he's too old, he

912
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:05,919
Speaker 1: would say, he's still mad at me about Hillary. That's

913
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:08,240
Speaker 1: what Obama would say, He's still mad at me about Hillary.

914
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:13,680
Speaker 1: He won't listen to me. So when you cross Joe

915
00:51:13,719 --> 00:51:16,879
Speaker 1: Biden in any way, even if it's calling a fat

916
00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:18,839
Speaker 1: person fat like it is.

917
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:23,040
Speaker 2: The penalty is a palty. Yeah, but you know that's

918
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:25,120
Speaker 2: so funny, Jake. You must have read my mind because

919
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:28,120
Speaker 2: that was going to be my next question about why

920
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:32,560
Speaker 2: Barack Obama didn't step in And okay, he was mad

921
00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:36,719
Speaker 2: at him in twenty sixteen, but like somebody should have

922
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:39,520
Speaker 2: put their big boy pants on and had a real

923
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:43,840
Speaker 2: conversation with this guy. There was nobody in the Democratic Party. Nobody,

924
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:47,160
Speaker 2: I mean, finally, Nancy Pelosi, I understand, you know, had

925
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:49,960
Speaker 2: to come to Mamma commers conversation.

926
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:53,800
Speaker 1: Chesh Schemer was really the one who ultimately said you

927
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:54,560
Speaker 1: shouldn't run.

928
00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:58,440
Speaker 2: But I mean, doesn't it strike you as not exactly

929
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:04,239
Speaker 2: profiles and courage that nobody could actually call a gathering

930
00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:08,759
Speaker 2: and you know, deal with the consequences of telling Joe

931
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:11,719
Speaker 2: Biden that this was not good for the country or

932
00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:12,280
Speaker 2: his party.

933
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:15,960
Speaker 1: You started this interview reading these nasty notes on Instagrams.

934
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:19,799
Speaker 1: It's no, no, no, I'm not I'm fine. But like,

935
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:23,960
Speaker 1: imagine that times a million, because I mean, this is

936
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:27,319
Speaker 1: just anonymous people on Instagram for a story that is

937
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:30,360
Speaker 1: true that we just shared. You know, we're just sharing

938
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:34,719
Speaker 1: an ugly fact of a story that at least as

939
00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:41,160
Speaker 1: of now, nobody has disputed. And that's nothing, but it's notable.

940
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:44,520
Speaker 1: It's notable that there is that blowback. I don't question

941
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:48,520
Speaker 1: your citing it, but imagine that coming from Democratic members

942
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:52,359
Speaker 1: of Congress, Democratic senators, members of the administration cabinet secretaries

943
00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:55,319
Speaker 1: to the one person trying to say he shouldn't run

944
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:58,440
Speaker 1: for reelection. David Ashrod says something in twenty twenty two

945
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:00,120
Speaker 1: by it needs to think about whether or not he

946
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:02,879
Speaker 1: should run. He gets an anvil dropped on his head.

947
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:07,239
Speaker 1: Joe Biden calls him a prick. Dean Phillips runs against him,

948
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:10,959
Speaker 1: says the President is a wonderful president, but he's too old.

949
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:14,880
Speaker 1: Let's have a debate. Let's let's show the country like that.

950
00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:16,759
Speaker 1: I mean, his plan was to get Biden on a

951
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:19,880
Speaker 1: debate stage, so what happened in June would happen in January.

952
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:21,960
Speaker 1: But he has an anvil dropped on his head. He's

953
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:24,719
Speaker 1: out of politics, he's a persona non grata, and on

954
00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:29,319
Speaker 1: and on and on. Chevn Hughes and Andy Laski from

955
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:33,360
Speaker 1: The Wall Street Journal write a story in June bringing

956
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:36,600
Speaker 1: some of these some of these issues to light, and

957
00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:39,640
Speaker 1: an anvil drops on them. They get destroyed on social media.

958
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:43,719
Speaker 1: Senators come out and dispute them and attack them. Some

959
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:47,320
Speaker 1: of the same senators who weeks later behind the scenes

960
00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:50,200
Speaker 1: would be like saying, Joe Biden, you should not run

961
00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 1: for reelection, are on the record attacking those reporters. I mean,

962
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:55,399
Speaker 1: it's not a small thing.

963
00:53:55,880 --> 00:53:59,279
Speaker 3: I would say, your question to think is a really

964
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:03,040
Speaker 3: good one. That's the reason we wrote the book was

965
00:54:03,239 --> 00:54:07,040
Speaker 3: because in our minds, the most important moment of the

966
00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:09,680
Speaker 3: entire election was Joe Biden decided to run for election

967
00:54:10,120 --> 00:54:13,000
Speaker 3: and the fact that no one stood up and they

968
00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:16,759
Speaker 3: sort of SlutWalk the party supwalk their way to there.

969
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:20,080
Speaker 3: Even though I think we I think our reporting pretty

970
00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:22,759
Speaker 3: conclusively proves there were a lot of people that knew better.

971
00:54:23,920 --> 00:54:27,520
Speaker 2: There seems to be, or seemed to be, a prevailing

972
00:54:27,640 --> 00:54:33,000
Speaker 2: sentiment within the Biden's circle that while he struggled with

973
00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:37,040
Speaker 2: some of the more performative tasks of the presidency like

974
00:54:37,120 --> 00:54:40,640
Speaker 2: press conferences, speeches, debates and I'm going to talk about

975
00:54:40,680 --> 00:54:45,080
Speaker 2: the debate, that he was still fully capable of doing

976
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:50,359
Speaker 2: his job, that he was capable of running the country.

977
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:54,920
Speaker 2: Does that narrative hold true? After all your reporting? Was

978
00:54:54,960 --> 00:54:57,680
Speaker 2: he capable of running the country And if he wasn't,

979
00:54:58,000 --> 00:54:58,560
Speaker 2: who was?

980
00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:03,239
Speaker 3: I mean, members of his were worried told us anonymously

981
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:06,839
Speaker 3: that they were worried if there was a crisis at

982
00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:10,440
Speaker 3: two am and how he'd be able to respond. And also,

983
00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:14,600
Speaker 3: you know, I do find this interesting. You know, as

984
00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:17,959
Speaker 3: we reported the book, a lot of people would concede, Okay, yes,

985
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:19,960
Speaker 3: like he had to have meetings in the middle of

986
00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:23,480
Speaker 3: the day ten to four, Yes, like could he speak

987
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:29,680
Speaker 3: not really? Yes, he was not, you know, as quick

988
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:33,920
Speaker 3: on the stump as he was. Yes, he had trouble

989
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:38,200
Speaker 3: moving and walking. But then at the end of the day,

990
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:40,920
Speaker 3: But they said, like, but they're they're the hill they're

991
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:44,560
Speaker 3: dying on is but his decision making was still the

992
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:46,960
Speaker 3: same as it was twenty years ago.

993
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:50,200
Speaker 1: That's that's their argument today. That's the rebuttal to this book.

994
00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:53,400
Speaker 2: And in fact, Chris Meeger, Joe Biden spokesperson, I'll just

995
00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:55,840
Speaker 2: read this while we're on the topic, said the former

996
00:55:55,920 --> 00:55:58,279
Speaker 2: president's team had not yet seen a copy of the

997
00:55:58,320 --> 00:56:01,960
Speaker 2: book and had not been consulted, and it's fact checking quote.

998
00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:04,080
Speaker 2: We are not going to respond to every bit of

999
00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:07,680
Speaker 2: this book, mister Meagher said. We continue to await anything

1000
00:56:07,719 --> 00:56:11,320
Speaker 2: that shows where Joe Biden had to make a presidential decision,

1001
00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:14,480
Speaker 2: or where national security was threatened, or where he was

1002
00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:18,920
Speaker 2: unable to do his job. In fact, the evidence points

1003
00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:22,440
Speaker 2: to the opposite. He was a very effective president.

1004
00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:25,319
Speaker 1: So whether or not he was an effective president's up

1005
00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:27,400
Speaker 1: to the historians, and it's up to the American people.

1006
00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:31,000
Speaker 1: They the American people, according to Poling, did not think

1007
00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:36,000
Speaker 1: he was an effective president, but that's subjective. We have

1008
00:56:36,080 --> 00:56:40,640
Speaker 1: two senators in the book, and their stories are significant

1009
00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:43,240
Speaker 1: Democratic senators pro Biden senators. One of them is Senator

1010
00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:45,759
Speaker 1: Mark Warner, who was at the time the chairman of

1011
00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:49,640
Speaker 1: the Senate Intelligence Committee. Biden calls him shortly after October seventh,

1012
00:56:49,640 --> 00:56:53,400
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three after the attack of Bi Famas on Israel,

1013
00:56:53,880 --> 00:56:57,879
Speaker 1: because Warner is on a separate issue. Upset because it's

1014
00:56:57,880 --> 00:57:00,400
Speaker 1: not just Warner, actually many members of the Senate very

1015
00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:03,600
Speaker 1: upset because the Biden team is about to release eleven

1016
00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:07,360
Speaker 1: Yemenis from Gitmo and send them to I think Oman

1017
00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:12,440
Speaker 1: and there are a lot of Senators, Mark Warner among

1018
00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:15,680
Speaker 1: them who think they're just going to go and join

1019
00:57:15,719 --> 00:57:19,600
Speaker 1: the fight, whether with Hamas or Hazbola or the houthis Like,

1020
00:57:19,640 --> 00:57:22,720
Speaker 1: this is a bad idea. Do not do this. So

1021
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:26,320
Speaker 1: he reaches out to Jake Sullivan, and the National Security Advisor,

1022
00:57:26,400 --> 00:57:30,680
Speaker 1: Jake Sullivan has Biden call him. Mark Warner is shaken

1023
00:57:30,840 --> 00:57:34,200
Speaker 1: by the conversation. He thinks that Biden doesn't really have

1024
00:57:34,240 --> 00:57:38,040
Speaker 1: a grasp on what's what's going on and why he's concerned.

1025
00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:41,520
Speaker 1: So that's one story. Another story takes place in June

1026
00:57:41,560 --> 00:57:45,040
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four when Senator Michael Bennett of Colorado, a

1027
00:57:45,120 --> 00:57:48,480
Speaker 1: Democrat pro Biden, goes to the White House for a

1028
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:54,560
Speaker 1: immigration event and Biden has a really weird moment in

1029
00:57:54,600 --> 00:58:00,880
Speaker 1: that immigration event where neurologists told us it looked neurological

1030
00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:04,040
Speaker 1: in nature. It's like a kind of like freezes and

1031
00:58:04,040 --> 00:58:07,040
Speaker 1: then whispers into the microphone in a way that like

1032
00:58:07,080 --> 00:58:11,160
Speaker 1: it's it's very off putting. I'll send you the I'll

1033
00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:13,480
Speaker 1: send you the clip, but it's it's off putting, and

1034
00:58:13,560 --> 00:58:18,120
Speaker 1: Bennett thinks to himself, this is why our immigration policy

1035
00:58:18,160 --> 00:58:22,120
Speaker 1: is such a mess. Our president, I'm paraphrasing, but our

1036
00:58:22,200 --> 00:58:27,440
Speaker 1: president is not capable of managing this issue. And in fact,

1037
00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:30,320
Speaker 1: the Department of Phone Land Security thought that there was

1038
00:58:30,360 --> 00:58:32,400
Speaker 1: going to be an order at the beginning of the

1039
00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:36,280
Speaker 1: Biden administration to help with border security. It never comes,

1040
00:58:36,920 --> 00:58:39,400
Speaker 1: and the border policy is something of a mess, like

1041
00:58:40,960 --> 00:58:43,520
Speaker 1: millions of people across the border illegally. It's not clear

1042
00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:47,240
Speaker 1: like what exactly the policy is. There really isn't anything

1043
00:58:47,400 --> 00:58:49,640
Speaker 1: done to try to do to crack down on the

1044
00:58:49,640 --> 00:58:53,360
Speaker 1: border until it becomes an obvious political liability in the

1045
00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:59,600
Speaker 1: fall of twenty twenty three. So the assertion by the

1046
00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:02,760
Speaker 1: Biden team that you can't point to any like effect

1047
00:59:03,040 --> 00:59:07,320
Speaker 1: that his deterioration has had, which is interesting by the

1048
00:59:07,360 --> 00:59:09,840
Speaker 1: way that they're not challenging the notion that a lot

1049
00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:14,200
Speaker 1: of people have stories of deterioration is one that I

1050
00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:16,200
Speaker 1: think those two senators that the very least would take

1051
00:59:16,200 --> 00:59:18,960
Speaker 1: issue with and that's just what we know about, Like

1052
00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:21,720
Speaker 1: we don't have subpoena power, you know. I'm sure there's

1053
00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:24,240
Speaker 1: much more, but that's what we're able to find out.

1054
00:59:24,080 --> 00:59:27,120
Speaker 2: And that is a hard thing to gauge, right, especially

1055
00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:30,840
Speaker 2: from the outside. He had several falls during his term,

1056
00:59:30,920 --> 00:59:34,520
Speaker 2: and you report that his physician, doctor Kevin O'Connor, privately

1057
00:59:34,560 --> 00:59:38,040
Speaker 2: said that if he had another batfall, a wheelchair might

1058
00:59:38,080 --> 00:59:41,160
Speaker 2: be necessary, which has gotten a lot of attention. I'm

1059
00:59:41,200 --> 00:59:44,440
Speaker 2: wondering if you could shed some light on what some

1060
00:59:44,520 --> 00:59:48,479
Speaker 2: of the physical ailments were, because it's unclear. We sort

1061
00:59:48,520 --> 00:59:52,440
Speaker 2: of wondered if he had neuropathy, you know, in his feet.

1062
00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:54,480
Speaker 2: I know that. I think you mentioned he had some

1063
00:59:54,600 --> 00:59:59,040
Speaker 2: spine issues. What was going on with Joe Biden physically?

1064
00:59:59,080 --> 01:00:01,760
Speaker 2: What did your report find.

1065
01:00:01,200 --> 01:00:04,680
Speaker 3: There was significant degeneration of his mind, which may have

1066
01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:09,960
Speaker 3: made it not just uh, you know, advise, but necessary

1067
01:00:10,080 --> 01:00:13,400
Speaker 3: for him to use a wheelchair in a second term. Now,

1068
01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:17,400
Speaker 3: the White House throughout twenty twenty four tried to uh

1069
01:00:17,520 --> 01:00:20,480
Speaker 3: say that, you know, his halting walk was because when

1070
01:00:20,520 --> 01:00:23,240
Speaker 3: he fractured his foot in twenty twenty, you know, he

1071
01:00:23,280 --> 01:00:27,760
Speaker 3: didn't want to wear the walking boot that much and

1072
01:00:28,200 --> 01:00:31,920
Speaker 3: as a result, so he was undone by his own vigor. Essentially,

1073
01:00:31,920 --> 01:00:35,960
Speaker 3: it's like the is the spin and that just wasn't candid.

1074
01:00:36,080 --> 01:00:41,480
Speaker 3: The doctor O'Connor at the time said that his foot

1075
01:00:41,600 --> 01:00:44,840
Speaker 3: had heels as expected after ten weeks and when they

1076
01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:48,800
Speaker 3: took the boot off, and if you look at the

1077
01:00:49,240 --> 01:00:52,120
Speaker 3: it was there to see. If you wanted to read

1078
01:00:52,160 --> 01:00:57,240
Speaker 3: between the lines on his medical evaluations that his you

1079
01:00:57,280 --> 01:01:02,320
Speaker 3: know that he had significant spinal arthritis that would have

1080
01:01:02,440 --> 01:01:06,200
Speaker 3: required him not to be in a wheelchair in order

1081
01:01:06,280 --> 01:01:07,479
Speaker 3: to do the job.

1082
01:01:07,920 --> 01:01:13,120
Speaker 2: Just months before his fateful debate with the Trump, O'Connor

1083
01:01:13,200 --> 01:01:16,680
Speaker 2: released a physical exam and wrote in a public memo

1084
01:01:16,760 --> 01:01:19,480
Speaker 2: that the president quote continues to be fit for duty

1085
01:01:19,520 --> 01:01:24,480
Speaker 2: and fully executes all of his responsibilities without any exemptions

1086
01:01:24,600 --> 01:01:28,560
Speaker 2: or accommodations. Yet he never gave him a cognitive test.

1087
01:01:28,960 --> 01:01:32,240
Speaker 2: And you note that these tests were pretty much standard

1088
01:01:32,240 --> 01:01:35,040
Speaker 2: procedure for any one sixty five or over. In fact,

1089
01:01:35,080 --> 01:01:38,000
Speaker 2: I think I need to call my doctor for you guys.

1090
01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:41,200
Speaker 2: But why not? Why didn't he give him a cognitive test?

1091
01:01:41,240 --> 01:01:44,800
Speaker 1: Well, the official answer was that the president passes a

1092
01:01:44,840 --> 01:01:47,520
Speaker 1: cognitive test every day with the job he does. That's

1093
01:01:47,560 --> 01:01:50,080
Speaker 1: their official explanation, But there were people closer to the

1094
01:01:50,080 --> 01:01:51,720
Speaker 1: White House or in the White who's the thought the

1095
01:01:51,720 --> 01:01:54,120
Speaker 1: only reason to not give a test like that is

1096
01:01:54,160 --> 01:01:56,479
Speaker 1: because you don't want to know the answer, you don't

1097
01:01:56,480 --> 01:01:58,720
Speaker 1: want to have to release it. And in fact, at

1098
01:01:58,720 --> 01:02:01,480
Speaker 1: the end of the book, doctor John Nathan Reiner, who

1099
01:02:01,560 --> 01:02:04,160
Speaker 1: has been an advisor to the White House Physician's Board

1100
01:02:04,200 --> 01:02:09,360
Speaker 1: for many many terms of various presidents, he had some

1101
01:02:09,400 --> 01:02:13,760
Speaker 1: harsh words for vaguely phrased but harsh words for doctor O'Connor,

1102
01:02:14,040 --> 01:02:17,320
Speaker 1: and also thinks that the White House Physician Letter, which

1103
01:02:17,360 --> 01:02:22,720
Speaker 1: basically is not required by law and can be as

1104
01:02:22,760 --> 01:02:25,600
Speaker 1: detailed as any White House wants it to be or not.

1105
01:02:25,960 --> 01:02:29,160
Speaker 1: As you noted in my question about it in twenty twenty,

1106
01:02:29,200 --> 01:02:31,240
Speaker 1: we still don't know why Trump went to Walter to

1107
01:02:31,280 --> 01:02:33,600
Speaker 1: read back in twenty nineteen.

1108
01:02:33,480 --> 01:02:37,800
Speaker 2: Right, And also his medical reports back during his administration

1109
01:02:38,840 --> 01:02:41,920
Speaker 2: was done by some doctor who said he weighed like

1110
01:02:42,000 --> 01:02:44,160
Speaker 2: fifty pounds less than he actually does. I mean that

1111
01:02:44,280 --> 01:02:46,080
Speaker 2: kind of thing, although I think he might be on

1112
01:02:46,160 --> 01:02:48,840
Speaker 2: a GLP one right now, but some reports then is

1113
01:02:48,880 --> 01:02:50,120
Speaker 2: that I mean.

1114
01:02:50,160 --> 01:02:52,320
Speaker 4: I wrote a story in the fall of twenty twenty three.

1115
01:02:52,200 --> 01:02:55,120
Speaker 3: Because I was on the politician age beat and like,

1116
01:02:55,400 --> 01:02:57,880
Speaker 3: we know nothing. I mean, Donald Trump is the oldest

1117
01:02:57,880 --> 01:03:01,800
Speaker 3: president ever inaugurated, older than Joe Biden was on Joe

1118
01:03:01,840 --> 01:03:05,040
Speaker 3: Biden's day one, and we know nothing about his health.

1119
01:03:05,200 --> 01:03:06,919
Speaker 1: By the way, this is another argument for the people

1120
01:03:06,960 --> 01:03:08,520
Speaker 1: who are like, well, why aren't you covering Trump? Why

1121
01:03:08,520 --> 01:03:12,720
Speaker 1: aren't covering Trump? Like everything that Biden did sets a

1122
01:03:12,760 --> 01:03:16,760
Speaker 1: precedent for future presidents to hide whatever they want to

1123
01:03:16,880 --> 01:03:20,200
Speaker 1: hide and just say you didn't say anything to Joe

1124
01:03:20,240 --> 01:03:24,640
Speaker 1: Biden about this, you know. Jonathan Ryner. Doctor Reiner thinks

1125
01:03:25,080 --> 01:03:27,520
Speaker 1: that the White House physician should have to submit his

1126
01:03:27,560 --> 01:03:30,880
Speaker 1: report under penalty of perjury. That's not the requirement now,

1127
01:03:31,480 --> 01:03:35,120
Speaker 1: I mean honestly, right now, like a doctor could write

1128
01:03:35,160 --> 01:03:37,400
Speaker 1: he is great and just hand the paper in and like,

1129
01:03:37,560 --> 01:03:38,760
Speaker 1: there's no requirement for this.

1130
01:03:38,960 --> 01:03:44,040
Speaker 2: So interesting given how much transparency there seems to be

1131
01:03:44,240 --> 01:03:48,840
Speaker 2: compared to past administrations. I remember doing a piece for

1132
01:03:49,000 --> 01:03:51,920
Speaker 2: CNN back in the day, like in nineteen eighty. Believe

1133
01:03:51,920 --> 01:03:55,400
Speaker 2: it or not, the Skyning physician named Ken Chris Bell,

1134
01:03:55,520 --> 01:03:57,560
Speaker 2: who was at the University of Virginia where I went

1135
01:03:57,560 --> 01:04:00,720
Speaker 2: to school, did a whole book on presidential health and

1136
01:04:00,840 --> 01:04:04,720
Speaker 2: how it was covered up. Obviously the FDR wheelchair, but

1137
01:04:04,840 --> 01:04:08,120
Speaker 2: the JFK and Addison's disease and the kind of steroids

1138
01:04:08,120 --> 01:04:10,520
Speaker 2: he was taking. We know that Woodrow Wilson was being

1139
01:04:10,560 --> 01:04:14,320
Speaker 2: propped up and basically his wife Edith was running the country.

1140
01:04:14,360 --> 01:04:17,800
Speaker 2: I mean, you would think by now there would be

1141
01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:22,480
Speaker 2: much more transparency about this, but still there's so much

1142
01:04:22,520 --> 01:04:23,720
Speaker 2: that can be hidden.

1143
01:04:23,440 --> 01:04:26,960
Speaker 3: Right well, and that era, you know, in the eighties, nineties,

1144
01:04:27,240 --> 01:04:30,560
Speaker 3: early two thousands, we had more information about presidential health.

1145
01:04:30,480 --> 01:04:31,680
Speaker 4: Than probably ever before.

1146
01:04:32,120 --> 01:04:35,240
Speaker 3: But to your point, you've seen a huge treat We

1147
01:04:35,360 --> 01:04:37,360
Speaker 3: know less and less and less and less.

1148
01:04:37,640 --> 01:04:40,360
Speaker 2: It seems like you saw with Reagan and his Alzheimer's

1149
01:04:40,440 --> 01:04:44,080
Speaker 2: disease for example, right, But it's just surprising to me.

1150
01:04:44,640 --> 01:04:47,440
Speaker 1: It's crazy, and I mean one of the reasons is

1151
01:04:47,440 --> 01:04:49,880
Speaker 1: because everybody wants it. The people who make the laws

1152
01:04:49,960 --> 01:04:52,800
Speaker 1: are partisans, and they want those laws to apply to

1153
01:04:52,840 --> 01:04:55,200
Speaker 1: the other guy. They don't want it to apply to them.

1154
01:04:55,320 --> 01:04:58,200
Speaker 1: I mean, right now, somebody could pass a law requiring

1155
01:04:58,280 --> 01:05:01,880
Speaker 1: more forthrightness and transparency on health, it would go nowhere.

1156
01:05:01,880 --> 01:05:04,000
Speaker 1: By the way, just like the efforts to band insider

1157
01:05:04,040 --> 01:05:06,080
Speaker 1: trading by members of Congress, it would go nowhere. But

1158
01:05:06,160 --> 01:05:08,080
Speaker 1: even if it went somewhere, the only way you could

1159
01:05:08,080 --> 01:05:10,720
Speaker 1: get that passed, if it is if it was for

1160
01:05:11,480 --> 01:05:14,320
Speaker 1: a one president from now. You could never have it

1161
01:05:14,400 --> 01:05:17,120
Speaker 1: passed to apply to Donald Trump, you know what I mean,

1162
01:05:17,560 --> 01:05:20,439
Speaker 1: just like in the world of Washington. That's how it is. Oh,

1163
01:05:20,720 --> 01:05:22,200
Speaker 1: this law applies to me. No, no, no, we'll do it

1164
01:05:22,200 --> 01:05:23,960
Speaker 1: for the next person. We'll do it for the next person.

1165
01:05:24,080 --> 01:05:25,320
Speaker 1: But even then it won't pass.

1166
01:05:25,560 --> 01:05:28,840
Speaker 2: Right, And then I wonder to how you both reconcile

1167
01:05:28,920 --> 01:05:33,200
Speaker 2: the fact that Democrats introduced resolutions in legislation pushing Trump

1168
01:05:33,240 --> 01:05:37,120
Speaker 2: to undergo a psychiatric evaluation in the first term. We

1169
01:05:37,160 --> 01:05:41,280
Speaker 2: have to, But those same Democrats were conspicuously silent. Yes,

1170
01:05:41,360 --> 01:05:44,400
Speaker 2: I quotes because it is from your book about Biden

1171
01:05:44,480 --> 01:05:46,880
Speaker 2: not taking a cognitive exam.

1172
01:05:47,120 --> 01:05:49,800
Speaker 3: I feeled Democrats the ones that have to reconcile that,

1173
01:05:49,600 --> 01:05:52,480
Speaker 3: not us. I mean, I think the obvious answer, and

1174
01:05:52,520 --> 01:05:55,000
Speaker 3: maybe they'll have a different answer. I think the obvious

1175
01:05:55,040 --> 01:05:56,360
Speaker 3: answer is just partisanship.

1176
01:05:56,760 --> 01:05:56,920
Speaker 4: Right.

1177
01:05:57,000 --> 01:06:01,160
Speaker 3: They introduced those bills because they want to hurt Donald Trump,

1178
01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:07,640
Speaker 3: and if they had sincere fears about presidential health, they

1179
01:06:07,640 --> 01:06:10,840
Speaker 3: would have reintroduced them during the Biden pretancy, but they didn't.

1180
01:06:11,240 --> 01:06:13,400
Speaker 1: It's so odd. But I mean, this is something that

1181
01:06:13,480 --> 01:06:16,400
Speaker 1: I think everybody in this room probably feels. It's just

1182
01:06:16,480 --> 01:06:20,160
Speaker 1: the oddness of partisanship, like because I just I've you know,

1183
01:06:20,280 --> 01:06:22,320
Speaker 1: even when I was in a party, like when I

1184
01:06:22,360 --> 01:06:25,280
Speaker 1: was a kid, Like, it's not something I am now

1185
01:06:25,280 --> 01:06:28,400
Speaker 1: I'm independent, and I just don't even understand it. It's

1186
01:06:28,480 --> 01:06:31,080
Speaker 1: just you. In order to be a partisan, you have

1187
01:06:31,160 --> 01:06:33,640
Speaker 1: to be intellectually dishonest. You just have to be, like,

1188
01:06:33,800 --> 01:06:36,160
Speaker 1: there's no other way to do it, it seems. And

1189
01:06:36,440 --> 01:06:41,960
Speaker 1: the idea that somebody would talk about Donald Trump's fitness

1190
01:06:42,160 --> 01:06:46,200
Speaker 1: and not say anything about Joe Biden's and vice versa,

1191
01:06:46,600 --> 01:06:50,320
Speaker 1: seems just strange to me. There should be one set

1192
01:06:50,320 --> 01:06:52,240
Speaker 1: of rules and everybody should follow them, and we should

1193
01:06:52,280 --> 01:06:54,800
Speaker 1: know everything about the health of any president.

1194
01:07:02,720 --> 01:07:04,800
Speaker 2: If you want to get smarter every morning with a

1195
01:07:04,840 --> 01:07:08,120
Speaker 2: breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and

1196
01:07:08,160 --> 01:07:11,520
Speaker 2: wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter

1197
01:07:11,600 --> 01:07:23,640
Speaker 2: Wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. I

1198
01:07:23,840 --> 01:07:26,680
Speaker 2: did want to ask you quickly about Robert Herr. You

1199
01:07:26,760 --> 01:07:30,360
Speaker 2: mentioned David Axelroder, you know, being called a prick by

1200
01:07:30,440 --> 01:07:35,600
Speaker 2: Joe Biden. You mentioned everybody who had the whole democratic

1201
01:07:35,800 --> 01:07:38,840
Speaker 2: infrastructure come down on them, and the White House when

1202
01:07:38,880 --> 01:07:43,400
Speaker 2: they said even suggested that he was not completely there.

1203
01:07:43,960 --> 01:07:47,480
Speaker 2: And Special Counsel Robert her in twenty twenty three, as

1204
01:07:47,520 --> 01:07:50,520
Speaker 2: you all write about, was appointed to investigate Joe Biden's

1205
01:07:50,520 --> 01:07:55,120
Speaker 2: handling of classified documents. He found no grounds for criminal charges,

1206
01:07:55,200 --> 01:07:58,920
Speaker 2: but his report included the damning conclusion that Biden was,

1207
01:07:59,040 --> 01:08:03,320
Speaker 2: in hers word, a sympathetic, well meaning elderly man with

1208
01:08:03,440 --> 01:08:08,960
Speaker 2: a poor memory. That just sent biden Land into a

1209
01:08:09,120 --> 01:08:10,960
Speaker 2: complete panic, didn't it.

1210
01:08:11,760 --> 01:08:14,120
Speaker 3: I think even people inside the White House think that

1211
01:08:14,120 --> 01:08:18,559
Speaker 3: that was because they intuitively knew it was true, like

1212
01:08:18,640 --> 01:08:20,920
Speaker 3: they would make a political argument, this is like it's

1213
01:08:20,920 --> 01:08:26,320
Speaker 3: obviously obviously it's biggest political liability. But I think their

1214
01:08:26,840 --> 01:08:33,280
Speaker 3: reaction to it suggested an extra defensiveness that came from

1215
01:08:33,880 --> 01:08:36,320
Speaker 3: they knew. As someone put it to me from the

1216
01:08:36,360 --> 01:08:38,200
Speaker 3: White House, he said the thing.

1217
01:08:39,120 --> 01:08:40,479
Speaker 2: We were all he said the thing.

1218
01:08:40,600 --> 01:08:43,320
Speaker 3: He said the thing, and everyone was not allowed to

1219
01:08:43,360 --> 01:08:48,519
Speaker 3: say the thing, and he said it, and that was

1220
01:08:48,560 --> 01:08:53,719
Speaker 3: not allowed in that world. And I think as a result,

1221
01:08:53,800 --> 01:08:56,240
Speaker 3: I mean, this is the point when I think, if

1222
01:08:56,240 --> 01:08:59,200
Speaker 3: you want to give them sort of grace for being

1223
01:09:00,200 --> 01:09:02,600
Speaker 3: you know, he has a few bend moments to be

1224
01:09:02,640 --> 01:09:03,559
Speaker 3: sole great president.

1225
01:09:03,800 --> 01:09:04,640
Speaker 4: You know, innocence.

1226
01:09:04,880 --> 01:09:07,400
Speaker 3: This is the moment when you have your own Justice

1227
01:09:07,439 --> 01:09:12,800
Speaker 3: Department come in and say come on. And their response

1228
01:09:12,920 --> 01:09:14,360
Speaker 3: was to try to ruin him.

1229
01:09:14,160 --> 01:09:18,400
Speaker 1: Not just her. They painted Robert her as a you know,

1230
01:09:18,520 --> 01:09:22,439
Speaker 1: partisan hack, which he was not. But they went after

1231
01:09:22,439 --> 01:09:27,439
Speaker 1: Merrick Garland. They leaked to again to Politico that Garland

1232
01:09:27,439 --> 01:09:31,599
Speaker 1: would not be invited back after Biden's reelection. They basically

1233
01:09:31,680 --> 01:09:36,040
Speaker 1: fired him and date to come and Garland. By the

1234
01:09:36,200 --> 01:09:40,519
Speaker 1: end of the Biden presidency comes to the conclusion that

1235
01:09:40,560 --> 01:09:43,439
Speaker 1: even though he came on board to be an independent

1236
01:09:43,479 --> 01:09:48,080
Speaker 1: attorney general with fear of favor for no one and

1237
01:09:48,160 --> 01:09:51,360
Speaker 1: tried to do that job by appointing special counsel's independent

1238
01:09:51,400 --> 01:09:55,080
Speaker 1: councils to investigate Trump and Hunter and the President himself,

1239
01:09:55,400 --> 01:09:58,080
Speaker 1: that Biden didn't actually want that, he actually wanted protection

1240
01:09:59,439 --> 01:10:03,639
Speaker 1: and Robert her we should not like it took him

1241
01:10:03,720 --> 01:10:06,840
Speaker 1: months to find a job. The word got out, do

1242
01:10:07,040 --> 01:10:11,640
Speaker 1: not hire Robert Herr and law firms and you know,

1243
01:10:11,680 --> 01:10:15,839
Speaker 1: people looking for a corporate council. They got the hint.

1244
01:10:15,960 --> 01:10:18,639
Speaker 2: Kind of sounds Trump downright Trump esque.

1245
01:10:18,800 --> 01:10:21,640
Speaker 1: One percent. Yeah, although Trump obviously does it at a

1246
01:10:21,800 --> 01:10:25,160
Speaker 1: much grander scale because everything with him is bigger. But yeah,

1247
01:10:25,360 --> 01:10:29,439
Speaker 1: one hundred percent. The Robert Hurr who's he now has

1248
01:10:29,520 --> 01:10:32,559
Speaker 1: a job, but he is, you know, like even if

1249
01:10:32,560 --> 01:10:36,040
Speaker 1: you disagree with what he did, and he basically concluded

1250
01:10:36,080 --> 01:10:38,679
Speaker 1: that Biden broke the law, but he was unprosecutable because

1251
01:10:38,720 --> 01:10:44,280
Speaker 1: he seemed behind the scenes in that interview like a

1252
01:10:44,439 --> 01:10:46,840
Speaker 1: very adult old man, except he put it much nicer.

1253
01:10:47,560 --> 01:10:50,680
Speaker 1: And if you read the transcript of that interview, it's shocking.

1254
01:10:50,840 --> 01:10:55,920
Speaker 1: It is interviewing a It's like interviewing some guy at

1255
01:10:55,920 --> 01:10:58,120
Speaker 1: the bus station. It's just a guy who just is

1256
01:10:58,160 --> 01:11:02,840
Speaker 1: talking and talking and talking. At one point, Robert Hurst

1257
01:11:02,880 --> 01:11:05,120
Speaker 1: is he's trying to find out when this classified information

1258
01:11:05,240 --> 01:11:07,960
Speaker 1: was shared with people who didn't have access to it,

1259
01:11:07,960 --> 01:11:10,120
Speaker 1: shouldn't have had access to it, and when Biden was

1260
01:11:10,120 --> 01:11:13,160
Speaker 1: no longer in office, this is in twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen.

1261
01:11:13,720 --> 01:11:17,519
Speaker 1: Biden is unable to understand when that is He says

1262
01:11:17,560 --> 01:11:20,000
Speaker 1: something like you have to understand during this period, Bo

1263
01:11:20,200 --> 01:11:24,040
Speaker 1: is either deployed or dying. That wasn't true. Bo was

1264
01:11:24,040 --> 01:11:25,639
Speaker 1: deployed I think in like two thousand and seven, two

1265
01:11:25,640 --> 01:11:28,200
Speaker 1: thousand and eight, something like that, and Bo died in

1266
01:11:28,240 --> 01:11:33,880
Speaker 1: twenty fifteen. Obviously no one thinks that Joe Biden, you

1267
01:11:33,920 --> 01:11:36,560
Speaker 1: know that that's not an incredibly important date to him.

1268
01:11:36,880 --> 01:11:40,920
Speaker 1: But to not know the twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen was

1269
01:11:41,600 --> 01:11:46,880
Speaker 1: not when Bo died, that's very concerning. And when it

1270
01:11:46,960 --> 01:11:49,960
Speaker 1: came out in the Her report, Biden portrayed it. And

1271
01:11:50,000 --> 01:11:52,519
Speaker 1: I don't know if this is ignorance or lying, as

1272
01:11:52,560 --> 01:11:57,839
Speaker 1: if Robert hurt had brought up Bo Bo's death, he hadn't,

1273
01:11:58,120 --> 01:12:00,840
Speaker 1: he'd asked about this year twenty seventeen, two an eighteen.

1274
01:12:00,960 --> 01:12:06,240
Speaker 1: It's really shocking. So Robert Hurr had this window into

1275
01:12:06,320 --> 01:12:08,320
Speaker 1: what Joe Biden is like behind closed doors in a

1276
01:12:08,360 --> 01:12:12,600
Speaker 1: way that nobody had gotten in years except for like

1277
01:12:12,640 --> 01:12:15,320
Speaker 1: his inner circle, and he was shocked at what he saw,

1278
01:12:15,360 --> 01:12:17,240
Speaker 1: and they tried to destroy him for it.

1279
01:12:17,439 --> 01:12:20,519
Speaker 2: Did you interview Robert Hurr during this time? Did you try?

1280
01:12:20,720 --> 01:12:20,960
Speaker 2: Was he?

1281
01:12:21,240 --> 01:12:23,200
Speaker 1: Oh? At the time, he wouldn't talk to anybody. At

1282
01:12:23,240 --> 01:12:25,000
Speaker 1: the time, Robert her wouldn't talk and in fact, he

1283
01:12:25,000 --> 01:12:28,599
Speaker 1: wouldn't even rebutt it when Joe Biden said that in

1284
01:12:28,640 --> 01:12:32,479
Speaker 1: February twenty twenty four. He wouldn't even allow anybody at

1285
01:12:32,479 --> 01:12:36,280
Speaker 1: the Justice Department to say, that's not what happened. Robert

1286
01:12:36,360 --> 01:12:38,559
Speaker 1: Hurr did not bring up bo dying because that's just

1287
01:12:38,600 --> 01:12:42,040
Speaker 1: not what the DOJ does. And so he kind of

1288
01:12:42,040 --> 01:12:46,160
Speaker 1: had to just sit there in self imposed misery, watching

1289
01:12:46,200 --> 01:12:47,800
Speaker 1: his name be dragged through the mud, and people were

1290
01:12:47,840 --> 01:12:50,240
Speaker 1: mad at him. People in his life were mad at him.

1291
01:12:50,360 --> 01:12:52,479
Speaker 1: Why would you bring that up? That's so horrible. I

1292
01:12:52,520 --> 01:12:56,680
Speaker 1: know a gold star mom, very conservative Republican, furious at

1293
01:12:56,760 --> 01:13:00,400
Speaker 1: Robert Hurr. Why would he bring that up? He didn't, didn't.

1294
01:13:00,720 --> 01:13:03,240
Speaker 1: But this is what this is what most white houses do.

1295
01:13:03,320 --> 01:13:04,760
Speaker 1: This is certainly what the Biden Whitehouse does.

1296
01:13:04,840 --> 01:13:08,479
Speaker 2: A shame he couldn't defend himself and set the record straight.

1297
01:13:08,680 --> 01:13:11,880
Speaker 2: But now this book is Let me ask you about

1298
01:13:11,920 --> 01:13:15,160
Speaker 2: the not so great debate for Joe Biden. Anyway, Jake,

1299
01:13:15,200 --> 01:13:18,840
Speaker 2: you're the moderator along with your colleague Dana Bash. You're

1300
01:13:18,840 --> 01:13:21,840
Speaker 2: getting ready. I'm sure you're nervous. That's very stressful. I've

1301
01:13:21,880 --> 01:13:23,840
Speaker 2: never moderated a debate.

1302
01:13:23,760 --> 01:13:26,040
Speaker 1: Huge oversun by the commission.

1303
01:13:26,240 --> 01:13:30,240
Speaker 2: But I can only imagine, like, so, you're ready to go.

1304
01:13:31,400 --> 01:13:34,840
Speaker 2: What was your reaction and when did you know? I

1305
01:13:35,160 --> 01:13:37,719
Speaker 2: watch it with a group of a very interesting group

1306
01:13:37,760 --> 01:13:39,639
Speaker 2: of people, by the way, which I'll tell you later.

1307
01:13:40,640 --> 01:13:43,680
Speaker 2: What was your reaction when you or when did you

1308
01:13:43,760 --> 01:13:47,800
Speaker 2: realize that, oh my god, this is a disaster.

1309
01:13:48,320 --> 01:13:52,880
Speaker 1: The first that really there were two. The whole debate

1310
01:13:52,920 --> 01:13:54,959
Speaker 1: was horrible for him, and I don't think it's hyperbole

1311
01:13:55,080 --> 01:13:58,559
Speaker 1: to say it's the worst presidential debate performance ever by anyone.

1312
01:13:59,320 --> 01:14:04,839
Speaker 1: In that first block, he starts out shaky but fine,

1313
01:14:05,439 --> 01:14:07,919
Speaker 1: and then he has that answer where he just completely

1314
01:14:07,960 --> 01:14:09,800
Speaker 1: loses his train of thought. He can't come up with

1315
01:14:09,880 --> 01:14:13,160
Speaker 1: words for things, and he says, we finally beat medicare

1316
01:14:13,840 --> 01:14:16,559
Speaker 1: I think he meant we finally beat COVID. I think

1317
01:14:16,600 --> 01:14:19,720
Speaker 1: that's what he was saying, but who knows. And I said,

1318
01:14:19,720 --> 01:14:22,320
Speaker 1: thank you, mister President, because as time was up, we

1319
01:14:22,400 --> 01:14:24,960
Speaker 1: had these iPads so we could communicate with the control room.

1320
01:14:25,600 --> 01:14:29,080
Speaker 1: And I wrote, holy smokes, I just because I didn't

1321
01:14:29,080 --> 01:14:30,360
Speaker 1: know who was going to be back there reading it,

1322
01:14:30,360 --> 01:14:32,720
Speaker 1: I would have said something else. You and I have

1323
01:14:32,760 --> 01:14:37,800
Speaker 1: similar predilections for salty language, so but I couldn't believe it.

1324
01:14:38,520 --> 01:14:46,040
Speaker 1: I couldn't. I I knew that this was going to

1325
01:14:46,040 --> 01:14:48,840
Speaker 1: be a much bigger story than a bad debate. This was,

1326
01:14:50,000 --> 01:14:53,360
Speaker 1: this was everything that the Republicans had been saying about him.

1327
01:14:53,720 --> 01:14:55,160
Speaker 2: And Dana passed you a note.

1328
01:14:55,200 --> 01:14:56,800
Speaker 1: Dana passed me a note saying he just lost the

1329
01:14:56,960 --> 01:15:00,439
Speaker 1: He just lost the election. Yeah.

1330
01:15:00,600 --> 01:15:03,960
Speaker 2: But what was even weirder, Jake, was his reaction to

1331
01:15:04,040 --> 01:15:06,200
Speaker 2: his performance afterwards.

1332
01:15:06,280 --> 01:15:08,320
Speaker 1: He didn't I don't think he had any idea.

1333
01:15:08,400 --> 01:15:11,960
Speaker 2: Right tell me about that. He came up to you guys, said, hi.

1334
01:15:12,840 --> 01:15:15,200
Speaker 1: Jill Biden. So Donald Trump just kind of storms off,

1335
01:15:15,280 --> 01:15:20,200
Speaker 1: By the way, I have to say, considering how historically

1336
01:15:20,240 --> 01:15:25,040
Speaker 1: awful Biden was, Donald Trump actually was very restrained on

1337
01:15:25,120 --> 01:15:29,040
Speaker 1: that topic. Not on Biden himself after the fact, you mean, well, no,

1338
01:15:29,160 --> 01:15:31,240
Speaker 1: during the debate. He wasn't restrained during the debate, but

1339
01:15:31,320 --> 01:15:35,479
Speaker 1: on the topic of this man. Like you could imagine Joe,

1340
01:15:35,760 --> 01:15:38,400
Speaker 1: you could imagine Donald Trump saying, can you believe that

1341
01:15:38,439 --> 01:15:41,519
Speaker 1: this guy is running the country? He can't even he

1342
01:15:41,560 --> 01:15:43,120
Speaker 1: can't even get out of sense.

1343
01:15:43,120 --> 01:15:45,120
Speaker 2: I think you're right about that. During the debate.

1344
01:15:45,200 --> 01:15:47,720
Speaker 1: During the debate, the only thing he said was I'm

1345
01:15:47,720 --> 01:15:50,080
Speaker 1: not sure what he just said in that answer, And

1346
01:15:50,160 --> 01:15:53,080
Speaker 1: I'm not sure that he knows either. That's it. That's

1347
01:15:53,080 --> 01:15:54,519
Speaker 1: the only thing he said. I'm not saying it was

1348
01:15:54,520 --> 01:15:58,519
Speaker 1: a restrained performance. But on that topic. So Donald Trump

1349
01:15:58,640 --> 01:16:02,960
Speaker 1: leaves Joe Biden and Jill comes up, helped him down

1350
01:16:03,000 --> 01:16:06,840
Speaker 1: from it, says to him, and well, she says, they

1351
01:16:06,960 --> 01:16:08,519
Speaker 1: just come over and makes make small talk.

1352
01:16:08,560 --> 01:16:10,840
Speaker 2: But first she says to him, you did a great

1353
01:16:10,960 --> 01:16:13,599
Speaker 2: job show. You answered all of their questions.

1354
01:16:13,760 --> 01:16:16,640
Speaker 1: She says, that's later, that's later that that's later that

1355
01:16:16,760 --> 01:16:20,479
Speaker 1: night they go to a rally. After the debate, Jill

1356
01:16:20,520 --> 01:16:23,639
Speaker 1: and Joe go to a rally and she, I think,

1357
01:16:23,640 --> 01:16:28,280
Speaker 1: in retrospect regretted it, but she says, you did a

1358
01:16:28,280 --> 01:16:32,320
Speaker 1: great job, Joe. You answered every question like he was

1359
01:16:32,360 --> 01:16:36,160
Speaker 1: in third grade. I mean, it was so infanalizing.

1360
01:16:36,320 --> 01:16:38,360
Speaker 2: But this was later that. It was later that it

1361
01:16:38,400 --> 01:16:40,719
Speaker 2: was talk about what he said to you and Dana.

1362
01:16:40,960 --> 01:16:43,280
Speaker 1: He comes over and he says something along the lines

1363
01:16:43,320 --> 01:16:46,240
Speaker 1: of he's just kind of like trying to get us

1364
01:16:46,320 --> 01:16:50,560
Speaker 1: to comment about how many lies Trump told and I, no,

1365
01:16:50,680 --> 01:16:53,000
Speaker 1: you can't talk about it. I guess we'll go see.

1366
01:16:53,280 --> 01:16:54,519
Speaker 2: Was this was this on air?

1367
01:16:55,320 --> 01:16:58,000
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't think so. Yeah, I don't think so.

1368
01:16:58,320 --> 01:17:01,080
Speaker 1: And if it was, it wasn't Mike, and if it was,

1369
01:17:01,320 --> 01:17:03,080
Speaker 1: CNN didn't give it to me because I asked them.

1370
01:17:03,080 --> 01:17:05,160
Speaker 1: I said, I'd love to know exactly what he said.

1371
01:17:05,160 --> 01:17:08,160
Speaker 1: But and then by from memory, I didn't know what

1372
01:17:08,240 --> 01:17:11,120
Speaker 1: to say. It was just so colossally horrible, and the

1373
01:17:11,120 --> 01:17:13,040
Speaker 1: way that Joe Biden had to help him down from

1374
01:17:13,120 --> 01:17:18,200
Speaker 1: the one foot or not even one step stage because

1375
01:17:18,240 --> 01:17:20,200
Speaker 1: there was like some weird lighting and it might be

1376
01:17:20,240 --> 01:17:23,639
Speaker 1: disorienting for a eighty one year old man. I didn't

1377
01:17:23,640 --> 01:17:25,760
Speaker 1: know what to say. I was wearing Phillies cufflinks. It

1378
01:17:25,800 --> 01:17:28,360
Speaker 1: was a middle of baseball season, and Joe is from

1379
01:17:28,360 --> 01:17:31,800
Speaker 1: Willow Grove, Pennsylvania, outside Philly, so I showed him, you know,

1380
01:17:32,040 --> 01:17:33,800
Speaker 1: one of these awkward moments. I'm just like, I got

1381
01:17:33,840 --> 01:17:34,479
Speaker 1: Philly cufflinks.

1382
01:17:34,640 --> 01:17:38,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're a cousband other than that, missus Lincoln.

1383
01:17:38,400 --> 01:17:40,519
Speaker 1: Your husband, you know, just shat the bed in front

1384
01:17:40,520 --> 01:17:42,280
Speaker 1: of the whole world. Did you like my Phillies cuflinks?

1385
01:17:42,280 --> 01:17:43,880
Speaker 1: I didn't know what to say. I didn't say the

1386
01:17:44,240 --> 01:17:46,000
Speaker 1: shit the bed stuff, but it was just it was

1387
01:17:46,200 --> 01:17:49,400
Speaker 1: And then they wandered off, but.

1388
01:17:49,320 --> 01:17:50,559
Speaker 4: They didn't seem to know how.

1389
01:17:50,600 --> 01:17:52,800
Speaker 1: They didn't seem to have any idea or if or

1390
01:17:53,320 --> 01:17:55,680
Speaker 1: they're just very practiced politicians and they knew not to

1391
01:17:55,720 --> 01:17:58,320
Speaker 1: reveal it. But I kind of believe the former.

1392
01:17:58,320 --> 01:18:02,720
Speaker 2: And even his inner circle initially or ever, did not

1393
01:18:03,240 --> 01:18:06,760
Speaker 2: say that it was a disaster, right. I mean, they

1394
01:18:06,800 --> 01:18:09,640
Speaker 2: said he had a cold, right, And I think he

1395
01:18:09,720 --> 01:18:12,280
Speaker 2: told you he had a cold to Jake according to

1396
01:18:12,280 --> 01:18:13,320
Speaker 2: your book, and he.

1397
01:18:13,320 --> 01:18:15,719
Speaker 1: Said, sorry, sorry about my voice, I have a cold.

1398
01:18:15,800 --> 01:18:20,360
Speaker 2: Right, right. But they didn't seem to kind of level

1399
01:18:20,400 --> 01:18:22,920
Speaker 2: with him after that. They were still spinning the polls

1400
01:18:22,960 --> 01:18:26,320
Speaker 2: and acting like he was still in the in the game.

1401
01:18:26,680 --> 01:18:31,320
Speaker 3: They're very dismissive of all of the and they felt

1402
01:18:31,320 --> 01:18:33,720
Speaker 3: that it was a complete overreaction, and I think part

1403
01:18:33,720 --> 01:18:39,160
Speaker 3: of that, honestly, is revealing that the person they saw

1404
01:18:39,200 --> 01:18:42,559
Speaker 3: on the debate stage was not that different than the

1405
01:18:42,600 --> 01:18:46,920
Speaker 3: person they often saw behind the scenes. And you know,

1406
01:18:47,320 --> 01:18:49,240
Speaker 3: there's been some discussion of like why we use the

1407
01:18:49,240 --> 01:18:51,280
Speaker 3: word cover up, Well, it wasn't a cover up, then

1408
01:18:51,320 --> 01:18:53,519
Speaker 3: why was it so shocking to so many people? And

1409
01:18:53,560 --> 01:18:57,479
Speaker 3: it's because like that in a circle was and I

1410
01:18:57,520 --> 01:19:00,840
Speaker 3: don't even know how conscious it was versus is just

1411
01:19:00,920 --> 01:19:05,080
Speaker 3: they were like protecting their guy, but they were shielding

1412
01:19:05,160 --> 01:19:10,240
Speaker 3: him from that part of Biden being the world seeing

1413
01:19:10,840 --> 01:19:11,160
Speaker 3: seeing that.

1414
01:19:11,439 --> 01:19:14,040
Speaker 2: How long was it before he dropped out between the

1415
01:19:14,080 --> 01:19:17,120
Speaker 2: debate and when he finally announced he wasn't running, It.

1416
01:19:17,080 --> 01:19:18,679
Speaker 1: Was a little over three weeks. It was June twenty

1417
01:19:18,680 --> 01:19:20,920
Speaker 1: seventh of July twenty first, a little over three weeks.

1418
01:19:21,160 --> 01:19:24,080
Speaker 2: What did your reporting tell you about how Kamala Harris

1419
01:19:24,120 --> 01:19:25,200
Speaker 2: walked that tight rope.

1420
01:19:25,400 --> 01:19:28,840
Speaker 1: She kept her head down. She kept her head down.

1421
01:19:29,240 --> 01:19:33,280
Speaker 1: She did not want anyone to think that she was

1422
01:19:33,360 --> 01:19:36,120
Speaker 1: in any way trying to push him out. She was very,

1423
01:19:36,439 --> 01:19:40,360
Speaker 1: very mindful of that. And in fact, when there were

1424
01:19:40,400 --> 01:19:42,639
Speaker 1: democratic you know, when there was an effort to shore

1425
01:19:42,720 --> 01:19:46,120
Speaker 1: up support among Democratic senators and they and the White

1426
01:19:46,120 --> 01:19:50,599
Speaker 1: House asked her to call some Democratic senators, the ones

1427
01:19:50,640 --> 01:19:52,600
Speaker 1: that she did not have a good relationship with or

1428
01:19:52,640 --> 01:19:56,160
Speaker 1: a strong relationship with. She declined because she didn't want

1429
01:19:56,560 --> 01:20:00,400
Speaker 1: anybody to think, hey, guess who it is. You know

1430
01:20:00,400 --> 01:20:03,760
Speaker 1: that she was in any way campaigning for it. We

1431
01:20:03,840 --> 01:20:06,080
Speaker 1: use the term in the book that she was loyal

1432
01:20:06,120 --> 01:20:08,439
Speaker 1: to a fault, and I think we mean it literally.

1433
01:20:08,920 --> 01:20:13,160
Speaker 1: She was so loyal to him that she was part

1434
01:20:13,200 --> 01:20:14,040
Speaker 1: of this problem.

1435
01:20:14,360 --> 01:20:17,800
Speaker 2: Well, it also cost her dearly when she said on

1436
01:20:17,840 --> 01:20:21,200
Speaker 2: the view that I wouldn't do anything differently at a

1437
01:20:21,240 --> 01:20:24,439
Speaker 2: time when people were looking for change. That wasn't an

1438
01:20:24,520 --> 01:20:26,560
Speaker 2: answer that served her well.

1439
01:20:26,600 --> 01:20:29,120
Speaker 1: I think actually that yes, one hundred percent, and that

1440
01:20:29,240 --> 01:20:32,920
Speaker 1: was probably her worst moment as a presidential candidate, and

1441
01:20:32,960 --> 01:20:35,360
Speaker 1: by the way, not a horrible run, given she only

1442
01:20:35,360 --> 01:20:37,000
Speaker 1: had a one hundred and seven days, right.

1443
01:20:37,040 --> 01:20:38,840
Speaker 2: I mean, I think she did a lot of things

1444
01:20:38,920 --> 01:20:39,880
Speaker 2: really well West.

1445
01:20:39,920 --> 01:20:43,400
Speaker 1: She probably saved three or four Democratic Senate seats, probably

1446
01:20:44,080 --> 01:20:46,600
Speaker 1: ten or twenty House seats. She brought things back to

1447
01:20:47,760 --> 01:20:51,840
Speaker 1: you know, losing but within respectability, although she did lose

1448
01:20:51,880 --> 01:20:54,439
Speaker 1: every battleground state. But I actually think, and this is

1449
01:20:54,479 --> 01:20:56,680
Speaker 1: just my personal point of view, I actually think the

1450
01:20:56,720 --> 01:20:59,680
Speaker 1: worst answer she gave to any question was at the

1451
01:20:59,800 --> 01:21:02,640
Speaker 1: very end of the campaign, she didn an interview with

1452
01:21:02,720 --> 01:21:06,960
Speaker 1: Halle Jackson of NBC News, and Hallie was pressing her

1453
01:21:06,960 --> 01:21:09,240
Speaker 1: on like, basically, weren't you part of the cover up?

1454
01:21:09,439 --> 01:21:11,320
Speaker 1: You know, do you regret it telling, you know.

1455
01:21:12,200 --> 01:21:14,120
Speaker 2: Part of the cover up of Joe Biden?

1456
01:21:14,240 --> 01:21:19,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you regret testifying on behalf of him? And

1457
01:21:19,600 --> 01:21:22,639
Speaker 1: Vice President Harris said it was a bad debate, That's

1458
01:21:22,680 --> 01:21:24,479
Speaker 1: what she said. It was a bad debate. If it

1459
01:21:24,560 --> 01:21:27,519
Speaker 1: was just a bad debate. With all due respect, Vice

1460
01:21:27,560 --> 01:21:32,280
Speaker 1: President Harris, you wouldn't have been the nominee. Like people

1461
01:21:32,360 --> 01:21:34,800
Speaker 1: have bad debates, this was not that. I mean, it

1462
01:21:34,840 --> 01:21:37,360
Speaker 1: was horrible, but this was a bad debate, was not

1463
01:21:37,400 --> 01:21:37,920
Speaker 1: the problem.

1464
01:21:38,360 --> 01:21:42,040
Speaker 2: I'm cureous how you feel about this assertion, this belief

1465
01:21:42,120 --> 01:21:45,040
Speaker 2: that Joe Biden still holds onto that he could have won.

1466
01:21:45,840 --> 01:21:49,760
Speaker 2: He said recently, yes, I could have won in essence paraphrasing,

1467
01:21:49,920 --> 01:21:53,479
Speaker 2: and he said he still got seven million fewer votes

1468
01:21:53,520 --> 01:21:56,640
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty. A lot of people didn't show up

1469
01:21:56,720 --> 01:21:59,719
Speaker 2: number one, number two. They're very close in those toss

1470
01:21:59,760 --> 01:22:01,599
Speaker 2: ups dates. It wasn't a slam dunk.

1471
01:22:02,120 --> 01:22:07,120
Speaker 3: So what I mean, I think Joe Biden moll probably

1472
01:22:08,320 --> 01:22:11,680
Speaker 3: to the end of his life, will believe that. And

1473
01:22:11,720 --> 01:22:14,240
Speaker 3: I think that's part of sort of his resiliency and

1474
01:22:14,280 --> 01:22:18,920
Speaker 3: belief in himself. And I also think acknowledging otherwise would

1475
01:22:19,000 --> 01:22:24,040
Speaker 3: be too big of a thing to tell yourself.

1476
01:22:24,320 --> 01:22:27,479
Speaker 2: It's something you call what Biden. There's a phrase you

1477
01:22:27,600 --> 01:22:28,360
Speaker 2: use in the book.

1478
01:22:28,800 --> 01:22:32,040
Speaker 1: We refer to the bidens, which is just the stuff

1479
01:22:33,360 --> 01:22:36,280
Speaker 1: at all. That's the stuff that you and I saw

1480
01:22:36,800 --> 01:22:39,439
Speaker 1: when we covered him, like in the nineties and the

1481
01:22:39,479 --> 01:22:44,599
Speaker 1: aughts and stuff, just like long winded always made gaffes,

1482
01:22:45,600 --> 01:22:48,120
Speaker 1: told a lot of FIBs, like all that stuff. That

1483
01:22:48,200 --> 01:22:50,639
Speaker 1: made it difficult, by the way, for his staff to

1484
01:22:50,720 --> 01:22:55,240
Speaker 1: see when that was actually symptomatic of something else aging,

1485
01:22:55,280 --> 01:23:00,280
Speaker 1: if not something else more diagnosable. But yeah, that was

1486
01:23:00,320 --> 01:23:02,200
Speaker 1: that was a real issue. One other thing on the

1487
01:23:02,280 --> 01:23:07,559
Speaker 1: on the polling, his pollsters, his outside pollsters, Jeffrey Pollock,

1488
01:23:07,600 --> 01:23:11,040
Speaker 1: Jeff Garon, Molly Murphy, never met with him, never talked

1489
01:23:11,080 --> 01:23:14,000
Speaker 1: to him, wanted to never talk to him.

1490
01:23:15,200 --> 01:23:17,400
Speaker 2: And they fake polls.

1491
01:23:17,479 --> 01:23:19,600
Speaker 1: No, they were giving real polls to the campaign. And

1492
01:23:19,600 --> 01:23:23,320
Speaker 1: then Mike Donaldin, who started his career as a polster

1493
01:23:23,479 --> 01:23:25,679
Speaker 1: and ended up being a guy who went by his gut,

1494
01:23:25,960 --> 01:23:30,040
Speaker 1: not data, would interpret them for President Biden. And this

1495
01:23:30,160 --> 01:23:33,120
Speaker 1: was one of the things that when we talk about

1496
01:23:33,240 --> 01:23:37,400
Speaker 1: Obama and Pelosi and Schumer and Hackeen, Jefferies wanting to

1497
01:23:37,520 --> 01:23:39,880
Speaker 1: get through to Joe Biden what's going on out there,

1498
01:23:40,280 --> 01:23:43,599
Speaker 1: they are constantly frustrated by the fact that Mike Donaldin

1499
01:23:44,360 --> 01:23:47,040
Speaker 1: is in their view, not being straight with the president.

1500
01:23:47,439 --> 01:23:48,680
Speaker 1: And to this day they say, oh, you know, it's

1501
01:23:48,720 --> 01:23:51,840
Speaker 1: only a couple of points. There's only you know, no,

1502
01:23:52,360 --> 01:23:55,519
Speaker 1: I mean, they're pollsters. And at the end, finally when

1503
01:23:55,520 --> 01:23:59,519
Speaker 1: Schumer has the conversation with President Biden and Rehoboth and

1504
01:23:59,560 --> 01:24:02,479
Speaker 1: he says, you're polsters think you have a five percent chance.

1505
01:24:03,200 --> 01:24:06,240
Speaker 1: And I talked to one of the pollsters after I

1506
01:24:06,280 --> 01:24:07,920
Speaker 1: found that out. It was reported by the New York

1507
01:24:07,920 --> 01:24:10,760
Speaker 1: Times first, but it's also in this book, and one

1508
01:24:10,800 --> 01:24:13,040
Speaker 1: of the posters said to me, it's probably more like

1509
01:24:13,080 --> 01:24:16,479
Speaker 1: a one percent chance. I mean, like his numbers were awful,

1510
01:24:16,600 --> 01:24:19,479
Speaker 1: they were getting worse, and there were two reasons they

1511
01:24:19,479 --> 01:24:23,040
Speaker 1: were bad to begin with, inflation and concerns about his age.

1512
01:24:23,560 --> 01:24:27,000
Speaker 1: And he had just put the age issue. There was

1513
01:24:27,040 --> 01:24:31,400
Speaker 1: no improving it. Everybody saw the debate. Everybody knows what

1514
01:24:31,400 --> 01:24:34,519
Speaker 1: that is. People might not understand tariff policy, but as

1515
01:24:34,520 --> 01:24:37,520
Speaker 1: you noted, we all have parents, we all have grandparents,

1516
01:24:37,880 --> 01:24:40,840
Speaker 1: we all are aging ourselves. We know what that is.

1517
01:24:41,560 --> 01:24:44,640
Speaker 1: Everybody and so many people in the book, member of

1518
01:24:44,680 --> 01:24:47,960
Speaker 1: Congress after member of Congress would see Joe Biden behind

1519
01:24:48,000 --> 01:24:52,719
Speaker 1: the scenes and say, telling us privately after the fact,

1520
01:24:53,320 --> 01:24:55,920
Speaker 1: he reminded of me of my dad, who died of

1521
01:24:55,960 --> 01:24:59,200
Speaker 1: Parkinson's And as my husband often tells me, when I

1522
01:24:59,240 --> 01:25:01,040
Speaker 1: complained about my age.

1523
01:25:01,120 --> 01:25:04,000
Speaker 2: You're never going to be any younger, you know. I mean,

1524
01:25:04,160 --> 01:25:06,479
Speaker 2: it's it's not reversible, right.

1525
01:25:06,439 --> 01:25:08,080
Speaker 1: Right, And there was still one hundred and seven days

1526
01:25:08,160 --> 01:25:11,000
Speaker 1: left and another debate. It wasn't going to get better.

1527
01:25:11,360 --> 01:25:14,679
Speaker 2: Fully understanding this falls into the category of kulda would

1528
01:25:14,720 --> 01:25:18,320
Speaker 2: have should have? What might have happened if Joe Biden

1529
01:25:18,400 --> 01:25:21,280
Speaker 2: had stepped down or announced he was only going to

1530
01:25:21,320 --> 01:25:23,680
Speaker 2: be a one term president at a certain point in

1531
01:25:23,760 --> 01:25:29,280
Speaker 2: time that the primary, some kind of primary process took place.

1532
01:25:30,439 --> 01:25:32,880
Speaker 2: What do you think we would have seen in the

1533
01:25:32,920 --> 01:25:36,040
Speaker 2: twenty twenty four election campaign and election.

1534
01:25:36,360 --> 01:25:38,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you would have seen a ton of

1535
01:25:38,520 --> 01:25:42,559
Speaker 3: people get in yeah, Pee Putaja. I mean I also

1536
01:25:42,600 --> 01:25:46,080
Speaker 3: say that increasingly Democrats are actually acknowledging Hey, we would

1537
01:25:46,080 --> 01:25:48,080
Speaker 3: have been better off. Amy Klobuchar said it to meet

1538
01:25:48,080 --> 01:25:50,599
Speaker 3: the press law Sunday, Pee Pudajad said it, and a

1539
01:25:50,600 --> 01:25:54,840
Speaker 3: ball places Iowa this week. Primelogia Paul has also said this.

1540
01:25:55,360 --> 01:25:57,880
Speaker 3: You would have had a very robust primary. I mean,

1541
01:25:58,000 --> 01:26:01,599
Speaker 3: so on the Biden people. You it would have been

1542
01:26:01,640 --> 01:26:05,679
Speaker 3: divisive and the party would have been divided. I think

1543
01:26:05,720 --> 01:26:08,680
Speaker 3: there is a little bit of overlearning the lessons from

1544
01:26:08,720 --> 01:26:13,280
Speaker 3: twenty sixteen, where the divisive Hillary Bernie primary they feel,

1545
01:26:14,320 --> 01:26:16,439
Speaker 3: you know, cost her the election. But you know, and

1546
01:26:16,520 --> 01:26:18,519
Speaker 3: Jacob's mentioned this before, you know, one of the most

1547
01:26:18,560 --> 01:26:20,960
Speaker 3: divisive primaries ever was two thousand and eight with Hillary

1548
01:26:20,960 --> 01:26:24,680
Speaker 3: and Obama, and it actually ended up making Obama a

1549
01:26:24,680 --> 01:26:28,639
Speaker 3: better candidate and it helped the party. So I think

1550
01:26:28,800 --> 01:26:31,000
Speaker 3: there are a lot of people in the party. I

1551
01:26:31,040 --> 01:26:32,160
Speaker 3: know there are all of people in the party that

1552
01:26:32,280 --> 01:26:35,240
Speaker 3: believe it would have even Kamala Harris, who if you

1553
01:26:35,240 --> 01:26:37,880
Speaker 3: look at the Electoral College margin two hundred and fifteen

1554
01:26:37,920 --> 01:26:39,360
Speaker 3: thousand votes something like that.

1555
01:26:39,520 --> 01:26:41,840
Speaker 1: Like she would have been a better candidate if she won.

1556
01:26:41,960 --> 01:26:44,639
Speaker 3: You if she had gone through that primary process, if

1557
01:26:44,640 --> 01:26:46,080
Speaker 3: she if she won to if.

1558
01:26:45,960 --> 01:26:48,200
Speaker 1: She spent her vice presidency, she wasn't doing the reps,

1559
01:26:48,320 --> 01:26:50,479
Speaker 1: she wasn't doing interviews, she wasn't out.

1560
01:26:50,600 --> 01:26:54,479
Speaker 2: I think because he wasn't. She didn't want to overshadow him.

1561
01:26:54,840 --> 01:26:55,639
Speaker 2: They didn't want him.

1562
01:26:56,320 --> 01:26:58,800
Speaker 1: There's a ton of reasons. It's not meant as an

1563
01:26:58,800 --> 01:27:02,760
Speaker 1: accusatory statement, but she was she wasn't ready. I mean,

1564
01:27:03,120 --> 01:27:04,639
Speaker 1: the theory of the case from a guy like David

1565
01:27:04,680 --> 01:27:07,160
Speaker 1: Pluffu's quoted extensively in our book, you Obama's two thousand

1566
01:27:07,160 --> 01:27:09,599
Speaker 1: and eight campaign manager and worked on the Harris campaign.

1567
01:27:09,640 --> 01:27:12,840
Speaker 1: At the very end, was a robust primary system would

1568
01:27:12,840 --> 01:27:14,880
Speaker 1: have produced a Democrat that could have beaten Donald Trump.

1569
01:27:15,160 --> 01:27:17,120
Speaker 1: Poll suggested that Trump was beatable.

1570
01:27:17,640 --> 01:27:20,120
Speaker 2: It would have put the Democratic Party, in my view,

1571
01:27:20,200 --> 01:27:23,440
Speaker 2: in better stead too, because it would have given exposure

1572
01:27:24,080 --> 01:27:29,400
Speaker 2: to their bench. Right, people would have seen these future

1573
01:27:29,439 --> 01:27:33,000
Speaker 2: Democratic leaders and they would have become more well known,

1574
01:27:33,360 --> 01:27:37,320
Speaker 2: perhaps impressed some voters, and they just didn't have an opportunity.

1575
01:27:37,400 --> 01:27:41,479
Speaker 2: So now people are like, who who for twenty twenty eight? Right,

1576
01:27:41,560 --> 01:27:45,080
Speaker 2: I think that some names might have surfaced and some

1577
01:27:45,120 --> 01:27:46,080
Speaker 2: real possibilities.

1578
01:27:46,040 --> 01:27:49,920
Speaker 1: So if the Democrats actually let a primary system happen,

1579
01:27:50,040 --> 01:27:52,240
Speaker 1: if you think about it, they really haven't had a

1580
01:27:52,280 --> 01:27:56,320
Speaker 1: competitive primary since Barack Obama ran in two thousand and eight,

1581
01:27:56,360 --> 01:28:00,719
Speaker 1: which produced a stronger Barack Obama and a win campaign.

1582
01:28:01,000 --> 01:28:03,719
Speaker 1: Twenty twelve, obviously he was the incumbent. In twenty sixteen,

1583
01:28:03,760 --> 01:28:06,360
Speaker 1: the party leaned on the scales for Hillary and was

1584
01:28:06,479 --> 01:28:10,720
Speaker 1: unfair to Bernie. Twenty twenty, the party came in and

1585
01:28:11,080 --> 01:28:14,519
Speaker 1: made Joe Biden the nominee because they were so scared

1586
01:28:14,560 --> 01:28:17,040
Speaker 1: of Bernie winning, and then twenty twenty four, we had

1587
01:28:17,080 --> 01:28:19,639
Speaker 1: the fiasco that we write about. So they haven't really

1588
01:28:20,000 --> 01:28:23,760
Speaker 1: had a competitive democratic party process, primary process where they've

1589
01:28:23,800 --> 01:28:27,040
Speaker 1: actually let the voters make up their minds since two

1590
01:28:27,040 --> 01:28:29,320
Speaker 1: thousand and eight. And I mean, it's one of the

1591
01:28:29,360 --> 01:28:32,519
Speaker 1: reasons why I think some of the arguments about Donald

1592
01:28:32,520 --> 01:28:35,600
Speaker 1: Trump being undemocratic or anti democratic and January sixth and

1593
01:28:35,640 --> 01:28:38,559
Speaker 1: all that perfectly legitimate arguments. I'm not disputing them, but

1594
01:28:38,720 --> 01:28:40,040
Speaker 1: I think it's one of the reasons why a lot

1595
01:28:40,080 --> 01:28:44,200
Speaker 1: of voters don't find them particularly compelling because they've seen

1596
01:28:44,240 --> 01:28:48,639
Speaker 1: what Democrats did to Bernie in sixteen and twenty and

1597
01:28:49,120 --> 01:28:51,880
Speaker 1: what they did with Biden in twenty twenty four. It's

1598
01:28:52,320 --> 01:28:57,080
Speaker 1: it's not exactly you know, small deed democracy.

1599
01:28:58,160 --> 01:29:02,040
Speaker 2: Final question, how will Joe Biden be remembered?

1600
01:29:03,560 --> 01:29:08,200
Speaker 3: I think I think is part of the problem with

1601
01:29:08,400 --> 01:29:12,400
Speaker 3: that question, or I guess sort of honestly, it sort

1602
01:29:12,400 --> 01:29:14,880
Speaker 3: of pains me to say, because the thing is, he

1603
01:29:15,080 --> 01:29:19,439
Speaker 3: was the one that framed his presidency as a success

1604
01:29:19,520 --> 01:29:21,680
Speaker 3: or failure based on whether or not Donald Trump came

1605
01:29:21,720 --> 01:29:28,360
Speaker 3: back and he failed, and even people very close to

1606
01:29:28,439 --> 01:29:33,960
Speaker 3: him see his presidency now, as you know, basically just

1607
01:29:34,000 --> 01:29:37,600
Speaker 3: a presidency in between two Trump terums. I think that

1608
01:29:37,600 --> 01:29:39,120
Speaker 3: doesn't mean that a lot of things he did, a

1609
01:29:39,160 --> 01:29:41,920
Speaker 3: lot of people in administration he did, won't be remembered fondly,

1610
01:29:42,680 --> 01:29:45,760
Speaker 3: you know, especially as like things get built and.

1611
01:29:46,680 --> 01:29:48,759
Speaker 2: So much of it is being undone.

1612
01:29:49,479 --> 01:29:55,320
Speaker 3: That's true too, And because Donald Trump won and you know, honestly,

1613
01:29:55,600 --> 01:29:57,519
Speaker 3: it's that's why we sort of frame it as a

1614
01:29:57,520 --> 01:30:01,640
Speaker 3: tragic story because I think his greatest virtue his resiliency

1615
01:30:01,680 --> 01:30:03,880
Speaker 3: and not giving up, and at the end it became

1616
01:30:03,880 --> 01:30:04,559
Speaker 3: a tragic flaw.

1617
01:30:06,240 --> 01:30:08,639
Speaker 1: It's tough to say from the perspective of six months

1618
01:30:08,640 --> 01:30:12,800
Speaker 1: after the election what history will record. I will say,

1619
01:30:12,840 --> 01:30:16,640
Speaker 1: if you look at the what we remember of presidencies

1620
01:30:16,640 --> 01:30:18,960
Speaker 1: in the past, I mean, what are like the three

1621
01:30:19,040 --> 01:30:21,800
Speaker 1: data points we know about Woodrow Wilson. One of them

1622
01:30:21,920 --> 01:30:25,479
Speaker 1: is that he had a stroke and his wife kept

1623
01:30:25,520 --> 01:30:26,240
Speaker 1: it from the country.

1624
01:30:26,360 --> 01:30:30,040
Speaker 2: And the League of Nations. I'm resegregating the comfrom right.

1625
01:30:30,520 --> 01:30:33,519
Speaker 1: It was a horrible racist and the League of Nations

1626
01:30:33,520 --> 01:30:35,479
Speaker 1: and World War One. Yes, there are other things, but

1627
01:30:35,520 --> 01:30:37,240
Speaker 1: it's one of the Maybe, like if you say there

1628
01:30:37,240 --> 01:30:39,360
Speaker 1: are five points for each president, and that's a lot,

1629
01:30:39,520 --> 01:30:41,839
Speaker 1: because you know, I don't think a lot of Americans

1630
01:30:41,880 --> 01:30:45,080
Speaker 1: could tell me much about Calvin Coolidge or Warren G. Harding,

1631
01:30:45,200 --> 01:30:49,439
Speaker 1: But I mean, I just think it's part of his legacy.

1632
01:30:49,960 --> 01:30:58,800
Speaker 1: And it was unprecedented, dramatic, hideous, ugly, tragic, heartbreaking. Stephanopolis

1633
01:30:58,880 --> 01:31:03,080
Speaker 1: called it after he interviewed Joe Biden heartbreaking. That's, you know,

1634
01:31:03,160 --> 01:31:05,720
Speaker 1: just to put some pathos on it. The humanity we

1635
01:31:05,800 --> 01:31:09,920
Speaker 1: all age father times undefeated, and here we had it

1636
01:31:09,920 --> 01:31:13,040
Speaker 1: happen to this guy in front of all of us,

1637
01:31:13,040 --> 01:31:16,639
Speaker 1: in enraging. I mean, I don't think that this gets

1638
01:31:17,160 --> 01:31:19,519
Speaker 1: separated from his legacy. It is possible that some of

1639
01:31:19,520 --> 01:31:21,600
Speaker 1: his legislative achievements are what he fought for when it

1640
01:31:21,640 --> 01:31:24,200
Speaker 1: came to NATO also are part of it. But there's

1641
01:31:24,240 --> 01:31:28,240
Speaker 1: no erasing this, however much they want to try.

1642
01:31:28,240 --> 01:31:31,280
Speaker 2: And this may put a stain on his legacy, I think,

1643
01:31:31,400 --> 01:31:37,040
Speaker 2: and unquestionably, Alex Thompson and Jake Tapper so fun talking

1644
01:31:37,080 --> 01:31:41,040
Speaker 2: to you all, I mean, obviously an incredibly serious topic

1645
01:31:41,120 --> 01:31:43,320
Speaker 2: and an important book. Thank you both so much.

1646
01:31:43,360 --> 01:31:44,600
Speaker 1: Thank you Kay, so good to see you.

1647
01:31:47,040 --> 01:31:50,040
Speaker 2: So how do you all feel about Jake and Alex's

1648
01:31:50,080 --> 01:31:54,519
Speaker 2: book Original Sin and covering the issues presented in this book.

1649
01:31:55,160 --> 01:31:57,920
Speaker 2: We'd love to hear from you. Head to my YouTube

1650
01:31:58,000 --> 01:32:01,120
Speaker 2: channel where you can watch the interview and leave a comment.

1651
01:32:01,680 --> 01:32:07,360
Speaker 2: I'd love to know what you think. Thanks for listening everyone.

1652
01:32:07,600 --> 01:32:10,200
Speaker 2: If you have a question for me, a subject you

1653
01:32:10,240 --> 01:32:12,479
Speaker 2: want us to cover, or you want to share your

1654
01:32:12,520 --> 01:32:16,280
Speaker 2: thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world, reach out

1655
01:32:16,640 --> 01:32:19,280
Speaker 2: send me a DM on Instagram. I would love to

1656
01:32:19,320 --> 01:32:23,200
Speaker 2: hear from you. Next Question is a production of iHeartMedia

1657
01:32:23,240 --> 01:32:27,599
Speaker 2: and Katiekuric Media. The executive producers are Me, Katie Kuric,

1658
01:32:27,720 --> 01:32:32,160
Speaker 2: and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz, and

1659
01:32:32,240 --> 01:32:37,360
Speaker 2: our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian Weller

1660
01:32:37,479 --> 01:32:42,040
Speaker 2: composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode,

1661
01:32:42,280 --> 01:32:44,679
Speaker 2: or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call,

1662
01:32:45,120 --> 01:32:48,040
Speaker 2: go to the description in the podcast app, or visit

1663
01:32:48,120 --> 01:32:51,320
Speaker 2: us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me

1664
01:32:51,360 --> 01:32:55,080
Speaker 2: on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more

1665
01:32:55,160 --> 01:33:00,519
Speaker 2: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or

1666
01:33:00,520 --> 01:33:05,599
Speaker 2: wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Hi everyone, it's

1667
01:33:05,680 --> 01:33:08,559
Speaker 2: Katie Couric. You know I'm always on the go between

1668
01:33:08,640 --> 01:33:12,679
Speaker 2: running my media company, hosting my podcast and of course

1669
01:33:12,760 --> 01:33:15,679
Speaker 2: covering the news. And I know that to keep doing

1670
01:33:15,680 --> 01:33:18,160
Speaker 2: what I love, I need to start caring for what

1671
01:33:18,320 --> 01:33:22,280
Speaker 2: gets me there, my feet. That's why I decided to

1672
01:33:22,280 --> 01:33:26,519
Speaker 2: try the Good feet stores personalized arch support system. I

1673
01:33:26,600 --> 01:33:29,799
Speaker 2: met with a Good Feet arch support specialist and after

1674
01:33:29,840 --> 01:33:32,880
Speaker 2: a personalized fitting, I left the store with my three

1675
01:33:32,960 --> 01:33:37,960
Speaker 2: step system designed to improve comfort, balance and support. My feet.

1676
01:33:38,120 --> 01:33:42,200
Speaker 2: Means and back are thanking me already. Visit goodfeet dot

1677
01:33:42,240 --> 01:33:45,639
Speaker 2: com to learn more, find the nearest store, or book

1678
01:33:45,680 --> 01:33:47,920
Speaker 2: your own free personalized fitting.