1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:05,560 Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from coast to coast AM on iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 2: The Salem witch Trial. Let's talk about the possibilities of 3 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:11,360 Speaker 2: something like that happening. What kind of panic would be 4 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 2: needed to create that kind of an episode, Paul. 5 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 1: I think we can. 6 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 3: All that is really required is that you know, there 7 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 3: are frightened people out there, and sometimes they're frightened due 8 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 3: to lack of information. Sometimes there are other causes for that. 9 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 3: And if you look at our government structure, for example, okay, 10 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:38,240 Speaker 3: House of Representatives members are elected to a two year 11 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 3: the entire House is elected to a two year term, 12 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 3: and they are designed to represent the interests of their people. 13 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 3: I can envision some type of statutory scheme designed to 14 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 3: address a problem that could sail through the House very 15 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 3: very quickly. Again, you know, members of the House are 16 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 3: directly responsible to the people that elected them. They're always 17 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:06,400 Speaker 3: standing for reelection. The old joke is when does your 18 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 3: re election campaign begin? All the day after you first 19 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:12,959 Speaker 3: get elected? So you know, so you know, we have 20 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 3: that structurally build into our system. And then we have 21 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 3: and then we have the Senate and again originally an 22 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:25,320 Speaker 3: appointed body, uh and or you know, individual states appointed 23 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 3: senators in different ways. They served for a six year term, 24 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 3: and it was designed for them to kind of slow 25 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:37,679 Speaker 3: things down. But you know, it's you know, years ago 26 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 3: in Massachusetts we had a we had a k and 27 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 3: and and the reason why it stands out in my 28 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:46,559 Speaker 3: mind is that it was it was labeled a which 29 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 3: it was labeled a witch hunt, and it really wasn't. 30 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 3: I think sometimes people use that as a way to 31 00:01:55,600 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 3: deflect attention to issues that should be addressed, either legislatively 32 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 3: or judicially. And and and that's the problem. And again, 33 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 3: so all we need is a sizable portion of the population, 34 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:12,919 Speaker 3: or at least a sizeable vocal portion of the population 35 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 3: that is that is overly concerned with something and can 36 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:19,800 Speaker 3: exert political pressure for some type of statutory scheme to 37 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:22,239 Speaker 3: be an acted. And again, it's incumbent upon government to 38 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 3: to to weigh these competing interests, to to to protect 39 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 3: the accused, because we certainly don't want people who are, 40 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 3: you know, not guilty of a crime to be accused 41 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 3: and subjected to legal penalties. And I just kind of 42 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 3: want to just go just backtrack for a second, George, 43 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 3: if I might, uh, one of the one of the 44 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 3: practices at the time. That led to some of these 45 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 3: convictions was the introduction of what's called spectral evidence. And 46 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 3: it's not a term that's that's really common. You have 47 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 3: to delve back into the historical record to figure out 48 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:58,079 Speaker 3: what it is. Now we have a prohibition in trials 49 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 3: now for hearsay evidence, right, you know, out of court 50 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 3: statements that are used to prove the facts that are asserted. 51 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 3: What spectral evidence was is someone's testifying as to a 52 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 3: dream that they had where either an evil spirit or 53 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 3: the devil or whoever else basically told them that someone 54 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 3: was a witch. And that was introduced me to testimony. 55 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 3: Think about that for a second. Think about the potential 56 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 3: for abuse if you're if you're not testifying as to 57 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 3: what the actual facts are that you saw that you saw, 58 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 3: but but based on a dream that you may have had, 59 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 3: and I think that has to be frightening and. 60 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 2: Your nails sovity for that you sure can. Was this 61 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 2: a bad blemish on American history? 62 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 3: Of course it was? Okay, But I mean one of 63 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 3: the things that at least in my opinion, is uniquely 64 00:03:56,640 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 3: American is we try not to make the same mistakes twice. Okay, 65 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 3: So you know, we had this horrible crisis. Government empowered 66 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 3: certain people. They took their role seriously. They looked at it, 67 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 3: and when it turned out to be a bad idea 68 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 3: or prone to abuse, they enacted protections that are designed 69 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 3: to prevent that in the future. You know, it was 70 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 3: kind of I don't want to say funny, but it was. 71 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:28,799 Speaker 3: It was odd. Back post September eleventh, two thousand and one, 72 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 3: there were a lot of people in government and out 73 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 3: of government that were demanding that, most of them Americans, 74 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:40,280 Speaker 3: be arrested and interned. And you know, there were some 75 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 3: very brave people that said, well, no, no, not too fast. 76 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 3: We tried that during World War Two with Japanese Americans. 77 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:48,480 Speaker 3: It was a bad idea in nineteen forty one. It's 78 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:51,039 Speaker 3: a bad idea now, and we're not going to do that. 79 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 3: So we have this uniquely American pension for self examination 80 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 3: and a desire not to make the same mistakes twice. 81 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 3: I mean, we're gonna make new mistakes all the time. 82 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:04,839 Speaker 3: That's that's that's part of the evolutionary process of government. 83 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 3: But at the very very least we can we can 84 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 3: look at something it was a blemish and we're not 85 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 3: going to do that we're going to try not to 86 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:12,720 Speaker 3: do that again. 87 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 2: Truly remarkable, is it not, Paul? 88 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:21,920 Speaker 3: It is? And it you know, I'm I think I 89 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 3: think the thing that I find disturbing is the zeal 90 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:31,840 Speaker 3: with which people advocated, you know, for these prosecutions, and 91 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 3: really the best way to prevent that is through education. 92 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 2: Did it go away as quickly as it came in? 93 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 3: I think there were there was still some some rumblings 94 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 3: as we went into the late sixteen nineties, you know, 95 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 3: post sixteen ninety post sixteen ninety three. But again the 96 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:57,040 Speaker 3: legislature repealed that conjuration statute in the fall of sixteen 97 00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:59,720 Speaker 3: ninety five, and then it just kind of there was 98 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 3: some rumblings in it, and it and the whole movement 99 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 3: died a graceful death that goodness. 100 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 2: Did the devil name come up much? 101 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:13,799 Speaker 3: Uh, well, there was a there was a general prohibition 102 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 3: against using that name. They would refer to them as 103 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 3: the evil one or or or just this nebulous evil spirits. 104 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 3: But I mean, there was a there was a palpable 105 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:35,719 Speaker 3: belief that these accused were off doing the devil's work. 106 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:40,160 Speaker 3: And that's and and and I think that frightened people. 107 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 3: But we can, you know, but we can see that 108 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:46,480 Speaker 3: right now. I mean, you know, the whole UFO controversy. Okay, 109 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,280 Speaker 3: are they those out there? Yeah? I think so. Okay. 110 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:53,119 Speaker 3: I mean the Director of National Intelligence, starting in twenty 111 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:58,719 Speaker 3: twenty has published an annual report talking about unidentified aerial 112 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 3: phenomenon that they just and explain. Okay, are people frightened? 113 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 3: Our people concerned? Why is the government, you know, suppressing 114 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 3: that information because it puts the whole government structure at risk. 115 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 2: Paul Devoli with us as we talk about the Salem 116 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 2: witch trial and how it could affect all of us 117 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 2: these days. I mean, it's like there's a communist under 118 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 2: every table. 119 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 3: Absolutely absolutely, And you know it's even though they were 120 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 3: protections at the time. Sometimes I'm overly critical of legislative bodies, 121 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 3: whether their state or federal and and and and I 122 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 3: think that's somewhat unfair. But what we do is we 123 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 3: have legislators with the best of all intentions, you know, 124 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 3: proposing and and and voting you know, these legislative measures 125 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 3: into effect. But then there's no Then they move on 126 00:07:57,080 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 3: to the next legislative task or the next legislative chal 127 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 3: and they don't necessarily look at the laws that they've 128 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 3: already passed and answer the question whether those laws should 129 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 3: still be in effect. For example, in Massachusetts, we have 130 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 3: a statute that makes membership in a subversive organization illegal, 131 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 3: and then it labels the American Communist Party as a 132 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 3: subversive organization. The law is still on the books. Do 133 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 3: you think time might have come to maybe go back 134 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 3: and look at some of these things? And we still 135 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 3: have in Massachusetts, we still have an anti blasphemy statute 136 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 3: and and and I think and I think that's part 137 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:42,320 Speaker 3: of the legislative duty. Yes, they have to go out 138 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:46,439 Speaker 3: there in legislation, but there's also this inherent oversight function. Okay, 139 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 3: And sometimes they're they're they're looking over the shoulder of 140 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 3: the executive branch. Sometimes they're looking at laws that they've 141 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:54,560 Speaker 3: already passed and said, wow, is this is this a 142 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 3: good idea? Should this laws still be on the books? 143 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 3: What would be the consequences of outmoded legislation and still 144 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:02,959 Speaker 3: being on the books, And how can that be? And 145 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:05,199 Speaker 3: what's the potential for abuse? 146 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 2: Did the witchcraft law really go away? 147 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 3: It did? I mean, it was repealed. We don't have 148 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 3: any new witchcraft law, although we have a fortune teller 149 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 3: licensing statute here in Massachusetts. I can't imagine what the 150 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 3: road test for that is like, but I mean, I 151 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:27,559 Speaker 3: think there is. I think I think legislatures are out 152 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 3: there trying to protect people, and they and they do 153 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:33,680 Speaker 3: generally try to do the best job that they can. 154 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 3: But conditions change, and what might have been ripe for 155 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 3: a legislative provision thirty forty fifty years ago may not 156 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:44,960 Speaker 3: be ripe right now, and I think I think legislatures 157 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 3: should be more proactive in examining these statutes. 158 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 2: Well, tell us a little bit about your book, Conspiracy 159 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 2: one on one. 160 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 3: So the book is modeled after the course that I 161 00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 3: teach every spring called the Conspiracy from Politics, and we 162 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:04,680 Speaker 3: start off at the at the Salem witch Trials, which 163 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 3: is the first genuine American conspiracy, and then we move 164 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:13,319 Speaker 3: into other topics, the plot to kidnap Abraham Lincoln, which 165 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:17,320 Speaker 3: was the forerunner of Booth's assassination attempt. One of the 166 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 3: things that we look at is the historical evidence that 167 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 3: indicates that Booth might might may not have been killed 168 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 3: on April twenty sixth, eighteen sixty five at Garrett's from 169 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 3: him and went on to live the rest of his 170 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 3: life in the Western United States, finally dying nineteen In 171 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 3: nineteen oh two, we look at the Saco and Vanzetti trial, 172 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:45,200 Speaker 3: which was a criminal trial in Massachusetts where two Italian 173 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:49,679 Speaker 3: anarchist immigrants were convicted of a crime, even though they 174 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:52,680 Speaker 3: were convicted of murder and robbing a paymaster of a 175 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 3: brain Tree shoe factory, and despite the fact that there 176 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:02,199 Speaker 3: was exculpatory evidence indicating that they were fifty miles away 177 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 3: when the murder occurred. And then we move into the 178 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:12,560 Speaker 3: JFK assassination and governments and government's role in controlling and 179 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 3: managing the message. We go into RFK, and quite frankly, 180 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 3: I don't believe that Sirhans er Hun fired the shot 181 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 3: that killed Bobby Kennedy. They never recovered the bullet from 182 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 3: Bobby Kennedy's head. I don't know how you can get 183 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:28,560 Speaker 3: a conviction without that, at least, at least beyond a 184 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 3: recentable doubt. And then we look at Watergate, Iran Contra, 185 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 3: and a couple of other conspiracies that really focuses on 186 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:39,439 Speaker 3: the way government responds responds to accusations are wrongdoing. 187 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 2: Generally, if there's a conspiracy. Eventually it's proven that it's real. 188 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:50,559 Speaker 3: Well, you have to look at the nature of the conspiracy. 189 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 3: So number one, we usually have some horrible criminal act, 190 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:58,719 Speaker 3: whether it's the assassination of Lincoln or the Saco and 191 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 3: Van City trial, we have this program, this regimen of 192 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:08,679 Speaker 3: trying to insulate government, or at least government officials, from 193 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 3: any wrongdoing. Because once people don't have faith in government, 194 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:17,600 Speaker 3: the whole notion of consent to be governed kind of 195 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:21,439 Speaker 3: falls apart. So you really have to be wary of that. 196 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:26,199 Speaker 3: One of the going back to John Wilkes Booth for example, 197 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:30,479 Speaker 3: if you look at the way the body was identified, 198 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:35,440 Speaker 3: in the way that the government control the body and 199 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 3: control the message, you know, after that time you kind 200 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 3: of sit back and shake your head, saying, if there 201 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 3: wasn't some type of underlying conspiracy to suppress the truth, 202 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 3: why go through all of these crazy, bizarre condorses. They 203 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:55,359 Speaker 3: actually hid John Wilkes Booth's body for almost two years 204 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 3: after he was allegedly killed, and did not release it 205 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:02,440 Speaker 3: to his family for proper burial. They kept it buried 206 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 3: under some stones under a stone floor in the DC. 207 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:08,839 Speaker 2: Homily sure he decomposed. 208 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:11,599 Speaker 3: Uh oh, I'm sure, I'm sure. Well, you know, I 209 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:14,080 Speaker 3: don't know what the I don't know what the what 210 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:16,560 Speaker 3: the embalming methods were back then. I have to assume 211 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 3: that there was some that there was a fair amount 212 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 3: of decomposition. But why would you hide the body other 213 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:24,320 Speaker 3: than to conceal the fact that you may not have 214 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 3: the right guy. 215 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: Listen to more Coast to Coast a m every weeknight 216 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 1: at one a m. Eastern, and go to Coast to 217 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 1: coastam dot com for more