1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,719 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:06,400 Speaker 2: This episode contains discussion of substance abuse. 3 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 1: Listener discretion is advised. A river is a body running. 4 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:19,239 Speaker 1: The first time I found my brother overdosed, he looked holy, 5 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:24,320 Speaker 1: a thing not to be touched. Yellow halo of last 6 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: night's dinner, his skin blanched, blue fresco patron saint of smack. 7 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:38,720 Speaker 1: A cop flustered, tugged up his shorts, plunged a needle 8 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: into a pale thigh. He hissed awake like a soda can. 9 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:48,240 Speaker 1: The paramedic spoke softly in his ear like a lover, 10 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 1: asked him what color yellow and red make? What is 11 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 1: the difference between a lake and a river? In the 12 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 1: corner I whittle, You've syringe into an instrument only I 13 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 1: can play. 14 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 2: That's Stephen Espada Dawson, poet, editor, teacher of creative writing, 15 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 2: and poet Laureate of the State of Wisconsin. His first 16 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:23,479 Speaker 2: collection of poems, Late to the Search Party, was recently published. 17 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 2: Stephens is a story of the legacy of a disappearance, 18 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:31,039 Speaker 2: an absence, and the ways we can rebuild our own 19 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 2: sense of self and purpose in the face of unresolved loss. 20 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 2: I'm Danny Shapiro, and this is family secrets, the secrets 21 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 2: that are kept from us, the secrets we keep from others, 22 00:01:55,640 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 2: and the secrets we keep from ourselves. Tell me about 23 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 2: the landscape of your childhood, your early life in East. 24 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: La So East l A. I still consider to be 25 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:19,640 Speaker 1: one of my two homes, and it was a little 26 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:23,959 Speaker 1: chaotic for the most part. I was with my mom, 27 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 1: a single mom, and my brother, and we were bouncing 28 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: around a lot from place to place, either because we 29 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 1: couldn't afford something anymore, or we were evicted or these 30 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:41,359 Speaker 1: kinds of things. A very unstable place to grow up. 31 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 1: I remember we were once living in someone's garage, and honestly, 32 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 1: you know how nostalgia operates. It's sometimes a little confusing. 33 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: You can feel very fond of memories that were objectively difficult. 34 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 1: But the kind of closeness that a garage sort of 35 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: states is that you and your mother and your brother 36 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 1: basically sleeping on top of each other while the owner 37 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 1: of the house is warming up his car in the morning, 38 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 1: and your willed side of the garage isn't entirely sealed 39 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 1: from the top, so you have just exhaust pouring from 40 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:23,800 Speaker 1: the top of the wall into your living space every morning. 41 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 1: And I think that is an image that really sticks 42 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:29,839 Speaker 1: with me from my childhood. But also just like these 43 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:33,920 Speaker 1: intense moments of transition, they really just resonate with me. 44 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: Gas stations and hotels and airports, these places that are 45 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 1: the in between. When thinking about my family, at the 46 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 1: fringe of their existing, they always feel very like a 47 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 1: bell that is a familiar sound for me. 48 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 2: Did you have a sense when you were a little 49 00:03:54,920 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 2: kid that is moving around and the precarity oft did 50 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 2: it feel like this is the way life is, this 51 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 2: is the way that everybody lives, or did it feel 52 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:08,119 Speaker 2: like distinctly yours? 53 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 1: It definitely felt like mine because I was constantly being 54 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:18,040 Speaker 1: introduced to characters and neighbors that had more histories on 55 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:22,919 Speaker 1: the block than we did. But it also necessitated being 56 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:26,360 Speaker 1: able to make friends really quickly, and in that way, 57 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:30,480 Speaker 1: we were bouncing around, but also like continually building our community. 58 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 1: My mom was often working two or three jobs, and 59 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 1: she would either employ my brother to babysit me. My 60 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 1: brother who's significantly older than me in nine years, or 61 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 1: the community. I was very much a latch key kid. 62 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:51,920 Speaker 1: I sometimes even though food was an issue. Maybe at home, 63 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 1: I was sometimes eating two or three dinners around the neighborhood. 64 00:04:56,279 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 1: So there can be a lot of abundance in a 65 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:05,479 Speaker 1: childhood where there is some instability to and i'd point 66 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 1: back to the community for that. 67 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 2: So your mom was a teenager when she had your brother. 68 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 1: Right, Yes, Yeah, she was very young, and she had 69 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 1: him at this home in California that I still think exists. 70 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: It's called Saint Lucie's Home for Unwed Mothers or something 71 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 1: like that. This is a very Catholic institution where your 72 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 1: family sends you when you are pregnant before marriage or 73 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:36,479 Speaker 1: they're trying to hide you away from the community. A 74 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 1: pretty dark place for her in her memory. But yeah, 75 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: she actually gave birth to him in the parking lot 76 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 1: of that place before going to the hospital. I think 77 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:51,160 Speaker 1: that I was always jealous of their closeness. They had 78 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: a very precarious relationship, and as you can see, it 79 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 1: started out precarious, but also he got in a lot 80 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 1: of trouble growing up. Trouble can also lead to closeness 81 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 1: because there's a kind of like reaching out that has 82 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:06,839 Speaker 1: to happen. 83 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, and trouble also has a kind of energy to 84 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 2: it that draws people to it in a way, I 85 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:14,679 Speaker 2: think totally. 86 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. And despite that, especially in my younger years, we 87 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:23,599 Speaker 1: were all close. I remember mom. One of my again 88 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 1: those memories that feel like a sort of anchor point 89 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 1: in my childhood is her growing out her hair very 90 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:33,840 Speaker 1: long and then selling it so that she could afford 91 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:38,599 Speaker 1: Christmas for us. And she brought us super soakers, which 92 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 1: was the thing that we wanted more than anything. And 93 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:46,720 Speaker 1: I remember, and this is children are children, and they 94 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:49,799 Speaker 1: don't see the work and the labor and the value 95 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 1: of these tendernesses. But I remember we filled them with 96 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:57,600 Speaker 1: soda so that they would get really sticky when we 97 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 1: sprayed the neighbor kids. And what happens when you do 98 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 1: that is that they break really quickly because you're coming 99 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:07,039 Speaker 1: up the insides, right. But yeah, that is also like 100 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: a fond, complicated memory of us not understanding the way 101 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 1: that she cared for us, with this sort of like 102 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: labor that was involved. He didn't know his father. I 103 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: didn't know my father. And I think that when you 104 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 1: don't have an immediate father figure, you start to see 105 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 1: father figures in your older brother or in any kind 106 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 1: of boy role model for you, which I think can 107 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 1: be complicated, especially when your older brother starts becoming an 108 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 1: addict and you want it to be just like him. 109 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 1: I think that when I was very young and he 110 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 1: was still young, I really looked up to him. He 111 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 1: was known in the neighborhoods where we lived. He was infamous. 112 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 1: He got into a lot of trouble. He was known 113 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 1: in the court systems there. The funniest thing is because 114 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 1: our last name is Dawson, which was a very uncommon 115 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 1: name for our neighborhoods, especially in East Los Angeles. The 116 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 1: neighborhood always referred to him as Jawson, and they would 117 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: refer to me as Dawson's brother. I think it's funny 118 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 1: but also points to the fact that we are. I'm 119 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 1: living in his shadow a little bit in these neighborhoods, 120 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 1: and I didn't really see a problem there yet. He 121 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 1: was definitely one of my first sort of role models, 122 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 1: and he was one of my first teachers. He taught 123 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:33,559 Speaker 1: me so much, but also just how to be scrappy 124 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 1: in a scrappy world. I remember one of our first 125 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:44,440 Speaker 1: gigs together was pretending to be guests at hotels. Again, 126 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 1: this theme of transition here a guest at hotels so 127 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:52,319 Speaker 1: that we could get free continental breakfast. Right, So we 128 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 1: would go in and take the elevator up and then 129 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: walk around and take the stairs back down, wave to 130 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 1: the front desk people who are certainly not paid enough 131 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 1: to care about this at all, and then we would 132 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:07,560 Speaker 1: get free breakfast in the morning. She taught me a 133 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:11,679 Speaker 1: lot about confidence and how to feed yourself and get 134 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:15,319 Speaker 1: what you needed from where you're at. One of the 135 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:19,080 Speaker 1: lifts that my brother taught us was you could get 136 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:23,320 Speaker 1: unlimited free samples at a Sam's Club or Costco. You 137 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: just have to find a family that looked like you 138 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 1: and nobody could stop you. Right, you are just skateboarding 139 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 1: outside of Sam's Club or Costco, waiting for some group 140 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 1: to blend in with, and you'd go inside with them, 141 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 1: take a tour around the whole facility and get your 142 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 1: ten samples of whatever food they were offering, go back 143 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 1: outside and rinse, and repeat. Two hours later, and it 144 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 1: was a whole sort of group of kids that all 145 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 1: look different, and we'd all just wait and be like, hey, Alejandro, 146 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:57,679 Speaker 1: they kind of look like you. You should go with them now. Yeah, 147 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:02,319 Speaker 1: and again, very fond, harmless, highly recommend. 148 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:04,960 Speaker 2: It's striking me too listening to you that there's a 149 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:09,560 Speaker 2: theme of belonging and not belonging, like when you're talking 150 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 2: about Sam's Club and being like, just nobody's going to 151 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 2: really pay attention. We can just we can tag along, 152 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 2: we can blend in with these people, but we're not 153 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:20,079 Speaker 2: actually of them totally. 154 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, And that was again a big part of the 155 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 1: neighborhoods that we grew up in, is that this is 156 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 1: a big thing in Mexican culture too, which is just 157 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 1: you have ten cousins and only two of them are 158 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 1: your blood cousins, right, or another aid ar just from 159 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 1: the neighborhood, or your family goes to church with their 160 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 1: family or whatever it is. But it feels like blood right, 161 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:47,680 Speaker 1: And when you are constantly losing folks in your family, 162 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 1: it VECs to question what family even means really. I 163 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:58,559 Speaker 1: did have another sort of father figure growing up, a stepfather, Santiago. 164 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 1: He grew up with fourteen brothers and sisters in very rorld, Mexico, 165 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 1: and so he was over children because of that, and 166 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:13,560 Speaker 1: we were never close. Him and my brother were never close. 167 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:17,080 Speaker 1: And it's difficult to say, but by the time that 168 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:20,560 Speaker 1: we are done talking today, Danny. It will probably be 169 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: more words than him and I ever said to each other. 170 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: So even though he was this sort of important factor 171 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:32,840 Speaker 1: in my life, he was also not very present. 172 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 2: How old were you when Santiago entered your life? 173 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:39,680 Speaker 1: I think I was three or four. He was actually 174 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:43,200 Speaker 1: one of our maintenance men at some building that we 175 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 1: lived in, and yeah, him and my mom fell in love. 176 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 3: And he also was the person that started to move 177 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:56,720 Speaker 3: to Colorado because he had another family and that family 178 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 3: was moving to Colorado. 179 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 1: That's we're also more work, was so he started that 180 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 1: and we followed him. 181 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:10,439 Speaker 2: Stephen is twelve when his family moves to Colorado. Brian, 182 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:14,119 Speaker 2: his brother, is a young adult, and in his young adulthood, 183 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 2: Brian's behaviors have gone from basically harmless and fun to 184 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 2: fairly insidious and worrying. Sometimes often he simply flees. 185 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:32,040 Speaker 1: He starts disappearing for days, weeks, sometimes a couple months 186 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: at a time, and he keeps on getting in more trouble, 187 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 1: now going to jail for the things that he's doing. 188 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 1: He starts stealing cars and things like that, and he's 189 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 1: really good at it, but he's still again struggling to survive. 190 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 1: I remember catching him, the sucking down calories from like 191 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 1: condiment packets that he had in his coat and things 192 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 1: like that. I remember there were these programs at the 193 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: local mall where you could go in and you could 194 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 1: volunteer to be like a test subject for a supplement 195 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,200 Speaker 1: or like a skincare or whatever, and they would pay 196 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 1: you one hundred dollars to report back in a week 197 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 1: or whatever. And he would do this at three, four 198 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 1: or five different malls, and he would look awful, like 199 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 1: he was just this guinea pig, like his skin would 200 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 1: be turning purple, and just terrible things. I would run 201 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 1: into him in the wild. I remember my mom and 202 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 1: I we would walk to go get groceries, and we 203 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 1: saw him sleeping under a loading dog, and my mom 204 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 1: pulled me away and we kept on walking and we 205 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 1: took a different route home, and we never talked about it. 206 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 1: It was the silences that we never really acknowledged, still 207 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 1: to this day and again that is also one of 208 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:58,839 Speaker 1: the reasons I was jealous of their closeness because her 209 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 1: and I never really had that. We had a lot 210 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 1: of silences and trying to make some meaning of implication, 211 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 1: like what is implied here? 212 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 2: What do you think that was about for your mom. 213 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 2: Was she trying to protect you. Did it feel like 214 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:18,079 Speaker 2: in a way she was trying to hold that silence 215 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 2: or that secret kind of at bay or was she 216 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 2: also trying to hold it at bay from herself. 217 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a great question. I think that 218 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:30,119 Speaker 1: a little bit of both. I think she really regrets 219 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 1: having my brother, not necessarily when she was young, but 220 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 1: when she didn't have the resources to really help him 221 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 1: grow up or the stability right to help him grow up. 222 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 1: So I think that a lot of his things, like 223 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: his addiction and him getting in trouble, were things that 224 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 1: sometimes she puts on herself. And so I think that 225 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 1: turning away is sure to protect me in that moment, 226 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 1: but also to shield her a little bit. And yeah, 227 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 1: it's a complicated little thing. 228 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 2: Well, and she also she lied about your brother's whereabouts 229 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 2: to people and soft pedaled what was going on understandably, 230 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 2: But was that out of a kind of protection or 231 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 2: what do you think that was? 232 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, my brother when he was either away for a 233 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 1: long time or when he was spending time in jail 234 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 1: or spending time in rehab, my mom would tell the 235 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 1: neighbors or tell the family that he was off doing 236 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 1: various things. Maybe he was at a trade school working 237 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 1: to be common electrician, or he had joined the military, 238 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: or all these weird everything that wasn't the truth. Honestly, 239 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 1: this is. 240 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 2: So often what families do to protect ourselves. We keep secrets. 241 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 2: We lie in the name of love. We believe there 242 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 2: are things better left unsaid than to tell the unvarnished, 243 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 2: difficult truth. We ask ourselves what would that serve? After all, 244 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 2: maybe things will get better, Maybe no one needs to 245 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 2: know during this period of time, when you're twelve, thirteen, fourteen, 246 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 2: there are these long periods where he's gone. What did 247 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 2: that feel like and what did you know at that point? 248 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 2: At one point you mentioned that he'd come back and 249 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 2: leave gifts for you, like he'd leave offerings or a 250 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 2: trace of himself in some way. But you're a kid 251 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 2: and you had been so deeply connected to him. What 252 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 2: did it feel like when he would vanish and when 253 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 2: he would return. 254 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, it became fairly normal in my life for him 255 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 1: to leave and come back. But again, I am still 256 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 1: trying to figure out what it means to be a 257 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 1: person and a man in the world, and so I 258 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 1: am really eager for still for something that looks like 259 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 1: a father. And so when he makes a return, either 260 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 1: I wake up and he's sleeping on my bedroom floor, 261 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:07,160 Speaker 1: or I wake up and I find that he's been 262 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: there because he leaves gifts for me. I'm really excited, 263 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:15,880 Speaker 1: honestly to see him. It really does, upon looking back 264 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 1: at it, feel like that narrative that you see in 265 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 1: popular media where you have this like deadbeat dad that 266 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 1: the kids are really excited to see because they don't 267 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 1: understand the sort of like insidiousness in the gaps right. 268 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: It does feel like that now, But in real time 269 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 1: I was just happy to have him when I did, 270 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:40,119 Speaker 1: and he would leave me things. And this is actually 271 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:43,639 Speaker 1: like more significant than it seems, because at one point 272 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 1: he was fully addicted to heroin, and he's giving me 273 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 1: things that he could otherwise sell to get more heroin. 274 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:56,359 Speaker 1: So this is still significant. I knew he loved me 275 00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 1: because he stole things for me, because he gave me 276 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:02,919 Speaker 1: things he could have used to fuel his addiction. I 277 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:07,640 Speaker 1: remember one birthday he admitted that he stole this telescope 278 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:10,919 Speaker 1: from a kiosk at a mall, and that sort of 279 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 1: makes its way into the posh collection. All these things 280 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 1: that my brother have given me. But most often they 281 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 1: were trinkets of a teenage life. Right, you'd have like fireworks, 282 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:27,239 Speaker 1: or you'd have loose cigarettes, or you have playboys and 283 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:30,960 Speaker 1: hustlers and silly things that he thought that a teenage 284 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 1: boy must need. Sometimes just really random things like these were, 285 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:39,640 Speaker 1: by the way, always in my dresser, So whenever i'd 286 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 1: wake up and I knew he'd be in my room, 287 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 1: I would go to my dresser, and sometimes just there 288 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 1: were a bunch of scribbled notes in cursive that just 289 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 1: made no sense. They are barely sentences. One time, which 290 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:56,679 Speaker 1: was an especially traumatic and eye opening morning, he's in 291 00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 1: the room, he's not waking up. I rushed the dresser 292 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:06,640 Speaker 1: and it's entirely full of empty glass bottles, and they 293 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 1: were obviously liquor bottles, and I couldn't make sense of them. 294 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 1: But I knew that my mom would be really upset 295 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 1: if she had found them, So I snucked downstairs to 296 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 1: grab a trash bag, and I very carefully, really methodically 297 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:28,119 Speaker 1: so they wouldn't clink together, put them in this trash 298 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:31,400 Speaker 1: bag and went to throw them in the community dumpster. 299 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 1: And when I came back, I was so proud of 300 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 1: myself for having saved him from my mom's anger over 301 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 1: that that I was trying to wake him up and 302 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:44,119 Speaker 1: even shake him awake because he wasn't responsive to me, 303 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 1: and he just sprung up and he hit me in 304 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:50,719 Speaker 1: the face, and I was knocked out for a period 305 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:55,119 Speaker 1: of time. And when I woke up, he was in 306 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:59,160 Speaker 1: the shower, and I was really upset and angry, and 307 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: I wanted to unleash my mom's wrath at that point 308 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 1: on him, so I immediately go to her room and 309 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:09,440 Speaker 1: wake her up and tell her everything that had happened. 310 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 1: And we come back to my room and he is 311 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:17,119 Speaker 1: climbing out of the window with just a towel around 312 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:21,240 Speaker 1: his body, and he jumped off the two story window 313 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 1: onto the ground, and you can see his wet and 314 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 1: bloody and dirty footprints trail behind him, and he just disappears. 315 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 1: And I think that was a really major That was 316 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 1: a major turning point in my teenage years, because I 317 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 1: knew that there was a problem that we couldn't deny anymore, 318 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:46,560 Speaker 1: and I knew that the family wasn't enough to help 319 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:51,200 Speaker 1: him on a path towards being himself again. 320 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 2: At that point. Do you think you knew that he 321 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:57,639 Speaker 2: was an addict, or could you have named it, or 322 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 2: you just knew that that you didn't know how to that. 323 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 2: No one need seemed to be on help. 324 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:08,679 Speaker 1: I was a teenager, and of course I had experience 325 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:11,919 Speaker 1: with drugs and things like that, and my own life 326 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 1: and my friend groups and things like that. But I 327 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 1: couldn't point out heroin or I couldn't point out the 328 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 1: other things that he was taking. So I knew he 329 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,400 Speaker 1: had a drug problem, but I didn't know what it 330 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 1: was or to what extent. Really. I was there though, 331 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 1: in the living room, we'd get a phone call on 332 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 1: the landline and he was calling to tell my mom 333 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 1: happy Birthday or Happy Mother's Day, or Merry Christmas, and 334 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:43,399 Speaker 1: they were on the wrong dates, like just months apart. 335 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:47,640 Speaker 1: I was there when we got those halls from the jails, 336 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 1: and I was there when I remember a sheriff coming 337 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 1: to our door with my brother and it was raining 338 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 1: and dark outside, and I will never forget this sort 339 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 1: of silhouette of them and the door as he forced 340 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,160 Speaker 1: my brother to take off his shoes so he could 341 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:10,200 Speaker 1: point to my brother's toes where he had been injecting 342 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 1: between his toes, which is a thing that attics do 343 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 1: so that you can hide the injection spot so it's 344 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 1: not so obvious in the crook of your arm. And yeah, 345 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 1: I remember this, sheriff wanted to date my mom. And 346 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:29,160 Speaker 1: I remember how proud, how he felt like a superhero 347 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 1: for not arresting my brother and for showing us how 348 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,920 Speaker 1: bad of shape he was in. That's an image definitely 349 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:37,040 Speaker 1: that sticks out. 350 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 2: And at this point, is Santiago still in your lives 351 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:41,440 Speaker 2: or yeah. 352 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 1: He is actually at this point, at this exact point, 353 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:49,359 Speaker 1: he's working in Steamboat Springs, which is far away, so 354 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:52,719 Speaker 1: he basically stays there all week and then comes and 355 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 1: lives with us on the weekend. So he's present, but 356 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:59,679 Speaker 1: he's not. And again we don't talk. Him and my 357 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 1: brother would sometimes get into fights, fist fights and things 358 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 1: like that. It was not a healthy sort of situation. 359 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 2: We'll be back in a moment with more family secrets. 360 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:27,440 Speaker 2: Stephen's time in high school is impacted not only by 361 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:32,360 Speaker 2: Brian's frequent disappearances, but by a diagnosis his mother receives 362 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:33,640 Speaker 2: when he's a software. 363 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:39,640 Speaker 1: So my mom discovers that she has breast cancer. This 364 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 1: is two thousand and seven. This is October, right before Halloween. 365 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 1: I remember, and I remember being too old for tricker treating, 366 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:54,119 Speaker 1: but doing it anyway. And I had this scream mask 367 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 1: and the mask was very cool because it had a 368 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:01,200 Speaker 1: little pump that you could pump by hand and sort 369 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,920 Speaker 1: of blood would like rain down the face of it. 370 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 1: I remember just weeping uncontrollably while I'm going to people's 371 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 1: houses that Halloween asking for candy and all they see 372 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 1: is this two tall kid coming to them for candy 373 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:20,359 Speaker 1: bars and doing this sort of a face mask blood 374 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:25,480 Speaker 1: pump thing, while actually just crying underneath that. This was 375 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 1: just a year after my grandfather died from cancer. When 376 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 1: you hear a cancer diagnosis right after that, you think 377 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 1: that you don't have any time left, when in fact, 378 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 1: she survives, but it takes a huge toll on her. 379 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 1: She develops other cancers, the cancer moves from her breast 380 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:52,159 Speaker 1: to her ovaries, and then right now she has a 381 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:56,879 Speaker 1: small tumors in her brain. But she has every single time, 382 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 1: through chemo and radiation, able to get into remission. And 383 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:08,680 Speaker 1: she has outlasted every single estimate from every doctor. And 384 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 1: I am lucky for that. And also this is someone 385 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:18,919 Speaker 1: that is continually for the last two decades at the 386 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,400 Speaker 1: fringes of their existence, which is a hard place to be, 387 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 1: a hard place to be for her, a hard place 388 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,120 Speaker 1: to be for myself too. 389 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,480 Speaker 2: And she had been told that it was terminal. Yeah, 390 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:36,359 Speaker 2: so that's a kind of all through nobody's terminal for 391 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:39,359 Speaker 2: twenty years. But it becomes like this dagger or this 392 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:43,400 Speaker 2: sword that's kind of hanging over everything that I imagine 393 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 2: just never went away, even in the years where she 394 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 2: wasn't quite so much on the fringes. 395 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,440 Speaker 1: Yes, in the same way that I was constantly waiting 396 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: to get a phone call about my brother, about his 397 00:25:56,480 --> 00:26:01,440 Speaker 1: body being discovered or from him, even I was also 398 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:04,120 Speaker 1: waiting to get a call that my mom had died. 399 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 1: And it still happens. The way that technology even has 400 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 1: made its way into this kind of trauma is you 401 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 1: just either have to laugh at it or you have 402 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:17,399 Speaker 1: to cry because spam callers these days. I live in 403 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:21,119 Speaker 1: Wisconsin now, which is a six TOZA area code, but 404 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:25,919 Speaker 1: I have my Colorado phone number still, and spammers they 405 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: will take your current phone number, they'll use area codes 406 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,360 Speaker 1: like that to call you. So I can't tell you. 407 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:38,359 Speaker 1: Every single day, every week I get calls from my 408 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:42,359 Speaker 1: mom's area code, and it's just spam, But for a 409 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:46,440 Speaker 1: split second, I'm sure that it's the call. Right now, 410 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:50,199 Speaker 1: my mom is in palliative care. She's at the end 411 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:52,640 Speaker 1: of her journey, and she's living in a facility because 412 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 1: she needs twenty four hour care. I actually found out recently, 413 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:02,280 Speaker 1: certainly after writing this book, that my mom has been 414 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:07,879 Speaker 1: incubating this rumor that she has eight sons. And the 415 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,440 Speaker 1: reason she's doing this is because they give her sort 416 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,639 Speaker 1: of special treatment, and that is like her sort of 417 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:19,359 Speaker 1: mythos around the facility. But it also suggests that she 418 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:23,119 Speaker 1: has eight people that will be there taking care of 419 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,880 Speaker 1: her and sending her money when she needs it and 420 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 1: talking to her case manager. And it's just me. 421 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 2: You are eight sons. 422 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 1: I am not, and I do not have seven brothers. 423 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,159 Speaker 1: And this was kind of a wild new thing that 424 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 1: I learned just this year, and I'm thinking about who 425 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 1: my seven brothers are. 426 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 2: Well, it's like another group that you don't belong. 427 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 1: To exactly exactly. 428 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 2: Stephen graduates high school in two thousand and nine. He's 429 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:57,919 Speaker 2: the first of his family to finish high school. 430 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 1: Day Money graduation was the last time I saw my brother, 431 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,360 Speaker 1: and you know, if I'm being really generous about it. 432 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:11,120 Speaker 1: And writing has been so important to me, writing through 433 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 1: these feelings, coming to understand how I really feel, and 434 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:17,080 Speaker 1: what the shape of my family is and what it 435 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:19,880 Speaker 1: could be, and things like that. I've come to sort 436 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:24,360 Speaker 1: of understand it as a kind of sweetness, even maybe 437 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 1: like he just had to wait until I could accomplish 438 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 1: the thing that no one else could in our Obviously 439 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,280 Speaker 1: from circumstance and challenge and things like that, I was 440 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 1: the stable one because of their hard work and also 441 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 1: their teachings and things like this. I was the first 442 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 1: to graduate high school. I was the first to go 443 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 1: to college and graduate college. I was the first to 444 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 1: go to grad school and graduate school. But he disappeared 445 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 1: in two thousand and nine, and this was not unique 446 00:28:55,920 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 1: to us until he didn't come back until the summer ended, 447 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:06,320 Speaker 1: and there was no word, no sign until the summer ended, 448 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 1: and we'd make phone calls to people that she knew 449 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:13,040 Speaker 1: in the neighborhood or even the drug dealers and things 450 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 1: like that, and no one had heard from him. I 451 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,080 Speaker 1: want to say that I was not a star student. 452 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 1: So yes, I did graduate high school, but not without 453 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 1: my own unique struggles. I missed class a lot, and 454 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 1: my high school was actually a closed campus unless you 455 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 1: had above a certain GPA. I did not go to 456 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: a very good school. It was the kind of school 457 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 1: where there was metal detectors and you'd have to get 458 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 1: your back searched for weapons upon entering. It's a school 459 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 1: actually that has its own Wikipedia page for the amount 460 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 1: of fighting that was in the school every year. But 461 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 1: I have this art teacher who would let us use 462 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 1: her door that reached the outside to leave for lunch, 463 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 1: which was not allowed. But she was the first person 464 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 1: I think that was an authority figure at that school 465 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 1: that treated us like adults. Right. She didn't care if 466 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 1: we didn't go to her class as long as the 467 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:20,520 Speaker 1: art projects that we did were done when they needed 468 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 1: to be done right. We would go to Kmart, which 469 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 1: was the closest store to the school, and we would 470 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 1: steal spray paint and we would try to get really 471 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 1: good at graffiti and take photos of it for art class. 472 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 1: And she would allow that kind of thing because she 473 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,360 Speaker 1: had a more of a nuanced perspective of what art 474 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 1: could be for people and what it might look like. 475 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 1: And when we left out of her door for lunch, 476 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 1: we would go to only the places in the neighborhood 477 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 1: that only spoke Spanish, because the dean of security would 478 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 1: go out in his little golf cart to try to 479 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,720 Speaker 1: catch kids like us that we're leaving school, but he 480 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:05,680 Speaker 1: would never go into the places that we went because 481 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 1: he could not speak Spanish. And anyway, I did graduate 482 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 1: high school, but I graduated in my own way. I 483 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 1: came home before anybody else so that I could erase 484 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 1: the messages from school saying I hadn't been There's a 485 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 1: way that I did adopt some things from my brother, 486 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 1: and I just became better at it than him. Though 487 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:32,479 Speaker 1: I wanted to live a different life, and it was 488 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,120 Speaker 1: certainly not poetry that I had in mind. In fact, 489 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 1: I wanted to be a doctor since my mom had 490 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 1: her diagnosis. I was going to throw myself into cancer 491 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:47,880 Speaker 1: research and be the person that makes the cure. I 492 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 1: was naive but well intentioned, and I wanted to do that. 493 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:55,320 Speaker 1: But the creative world really called to me. It started 494 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 1: in high school when I would sneak into the library, 495 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,920 Speaker 1: which now I feel like our safe havens. Every library 496 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:05,440 Speaker 1: I've ever been to has been just another home for me. 497 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:09,719 Speaker 1: There's such an important place but where I went to school, 498 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 1: you could get jumped afterwards for going into the library. 499 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 1: And I would sneak in and I would lift lines 500 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 1: from Neruda, from other poets. I love poets especially, and 501 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:25,480 Speaker 1: I would incorporate them into love letters and just bold 502 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 1: face lie to the people that I gave them to, 503 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 1: just oh, yeah, that's that's from me, that's from my 504 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,440 Speaker 1: heart to you, that you're the one, you know. And 505 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:38,280 Speaker 1: I did that until I saw this poster in the library. 506 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 1: There wasn't even a poster from school, because that school 507 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 1: would never fund this kind of thing. But it was 508 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:48,840 Speaker 1: just from the libraryan himself. It was a contest, a 509 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 1: poetry contest where you could win an iPod and an 510 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 1: iPod these things had just come out, and they were 511 00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,239 Speaker 1: like hundreds of dollars, like two hundred and fifty three 512 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 1: hundred dollars, something I could never afford. And I did 513 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,840 Speaker 1: my best. I wrote a poem. I don't remember what 514 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:10,080 Speaker 1: the poem was, but I remember rhyming shoulders with boulders 515 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:15,320 Speaker 1: and feeling like incredible about myself, like this is apex poetry. 516 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 1: And I won the competition, and I found out that 517 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:21,280 Speaker 1: I was the only one in the school that submitted 518 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 1: in the competition. So yeah, that sort of evolved into 519 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:31,960 Speaker 1: sneaking out and doing open mics around the city and 520 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 1: including again, this is my brother sneaking into sort of 521 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:39,240 Speaker 1: even the lighter aspects of my life. But we would 522 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:45,080 Speaker 1: steal my then girlfriend's sisters car, her camaro and we 523 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:47,000 Speaker 1: would go in the middle of the night to these 524 00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:52,040 Speaker 1: late night adult only open mics around downtown Denver, and 525 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 1: it was a really healing thing. And I was also 526 00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:58,959 Speaker 1: again treated like an adult for the first time. I 527 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:02,000 Speaker 1: was not an adult, but it really felt like it 528 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 1: called to me. There's another instance of that when I 529 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:10,040 Speaker 1: felt like this thing called to me, and that is 530 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:14,759 Speaker 1: I'm in college now and I am making an hour 531 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,280 Speaker 1: and a half commute to get to college, so about 532 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 1: three hours of traveling every day. And at this point 533 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:23,839 Speaker 1: I know I want to be a writer. I am 534 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,360 Speaker 1: not necessarily sure I wanted to be a poet. I 535 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:28,840 Speaker 1: didn't even know what that looked like. I thought that 536 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 1: poetry is just something you do on the side, it's 537 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:35,400 Speaker 1: a hobby. But I knew that there were novelists. I 538 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 1: knew that there were people that could somehow magically make 539 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:42,239 Speaker 1: a living by writing books and I wanted to be 540 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 1: that person. I wanted to be the next best American novelists. 541 00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 1: And I convinced myself, I can read all these books 542 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:54,480 Speaker 1: on the way on the train, but I suddenly get 543 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,839 Speaker 1: a lot of motion sickness. I developed that immediately, and 544 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:04,160 Speaker 1: it ruins my plan. But I learned that I could 545 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:08,960 Speaker 1: read poetry on the train because I could very quickly 546 00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:12,520 Speaker 1: read half a page poem a page poem, and I 547 00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:16,800 Speaker 1: could look into the horizon and I could resettle myself 548 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,359 Speaker 1: while thinking about what I just read, and then read 549 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:24,800 Speaker 1: the next page, which was not actually possible for pros 550 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 1: because it takes up the whole page. Lines are as 551 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 1: long as possible. And suddenly I'm reading two hundred books 552 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:36,520 Speaker 1: of poems a year and learning about where my voice 553 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:41,240 Speaker 1: fits into the discussion of poetry. Who else is talking 554 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:42,720 Speaker 1: about what I want to write about. 555 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,280 Speaker 2: It's such a beautiful example of the happy accidents in life, 556 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:48,120 Speaker 2: the gift of motion sickness. 557 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, and also just thinking about me being scrappy and 558 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:55,040 Speaker 1: in high school and thinking about if I could see 559 00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:59,239 Speaker 1: my eighteen nineteen twenty year old self getting motion sick 560 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:03,640 Speaker 1: and choosing and how I would bully myself at that age, 561 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:06,080 Speaker 1: but I do feel like it called to me. And 562 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:10,560 Speaker 1: I learned that a poem could contain so much in 563 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:15,399 Speaker 1: such a small package, and that was really an illuminating thing. 564 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:19,040 Speaker 1: A poem did not have to be a Hallmark card, 565 00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:22,560 Speaker 1: it did not have to be a shakespeareance on it. 566 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:27,439 Speaker 1: It could be so many different things. 567 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:47,839 Speaker 2: We'll be right back. Vanishing is its own very particular 568 00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:53,520 Speaker 2: kind of absence. There's no closure, no answer. Grappling with this, 569 00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:56,080 Speaker 2: along with the fact that his mother has been told 570 00:36:56,280 --> 00:37:00,480 Speaker 2: time and time again that she's terminally ill, my central 571 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:05,320 Speaker 2: question comes to define Stephen's life. How do you become 572 00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:06,799 Speaker 2: a family of one? 573 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:12,080 Speaker 1: When thinking about the question of how to be a 574 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:16,120 Speaker 1: family of one, I have come to the conclusion that 575 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:20,959 Speaker 1: there's no need to be as long as you can 576 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:26,200 Speaker 1: really develop your idea of what family is. And I 577 00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:29,400 Speaker 1: think it has actually been under my nose this whole time, 578 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,799 Speaker 1: which is the neighbor that feeds me dinner when I'm 579 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:35,439 Speaker 1: a kid and I don't have anywhere to go, and 580 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:39,320 Speaker 1: the friends that are not blood that I've made along 581 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:43,239 Speaker 1: the way, that have been often there for me more 582 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:46,520 Speaker 1: than blood. My brother and I are only half related 583 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:50,640 Speaker 1: like blood, just doesn't matter that much. I have been 584 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:55,640 Speaker 1: in this incredibly privileged position to build communities wherever I go, 585 00:37:56,040 --> 00:38:00,480 Speaker 1: and to make life long friends and my partner well, 586 00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:04,240 Speaker 1: and just this is the family that you get to choose. 587 00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:10,719 Speaker 1: And when your family is vanishing, you have to ask 588 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:15,440 Speaker 1: yourself how important blood really is. The book has an 589 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:20,680 Speaker 1: epigraph that starts the collection, which is a whole is 590 00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:24,960 Speaker 1: nothing but what remains around it. And so I'm constantly 591 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:30,160 Speaker 1: asking myself what is left when the hole persists? And 592 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:34,400 Speaker 1: I've just decided that's love and it doesn't have to 593 00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:36,759 Speaker 1: come from the people that you were born with. 594 00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:43,400 Speaker 2: Stephen lives in Madison, Wisconsin now, where he teaches and 595 00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:47,440 Speaker 2: writes and has a rich, full life. And yet there 596 00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:53,040 Speaker 2: is of course something unfinished, something that may always remain unfinished. 597 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:58,399 Speaker 2: His brother's absence is something he carries. Sometimes he sees 598 00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:01,960 Speaker 2: someone who looks like Brian and feels the inner earthquake 599 00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:07,160 Speaker 2: of what if. But he is no longer searching. He 600 00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:12,400 Speaker 2: considers Brian's disappearance a closed investigation. He's not seeking answers 601 00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:14,320 Speaker 2: to unanswerable questions. 602 00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:22,040 Speaker 1: I still see him. I found myself really gravitating towards works. Unfortunately, 603 00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:27,160 Speaker 1: there aren't a ton of poetry collections or novels or 604 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:34,480 Speaker 1: memoirs about missing people, especially in this specific context when 605 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,360 Speaker 1: you really don't know if he is missing by his 606 00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:43,839 Speaker 1: choice or not. But there are unfortunately many of those 607 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:49,120 Speaker 1: same genres about people that have taken their own life, 608 00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:53,279 Speaker 1: and it is a sort of similar outcome where you 609 00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:57,960 Speaker 1: have this sort of sudden disappearance that leaves more questions 610 00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:03,640 Speaker 1: than answers. If I this being different, there's no suicide letter, 611 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:07,040 Speaker 1: there's nothing like that. I do feel again a lot 612 00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:10,319 Speaker 1: of resonance with those stories, and similar to people who 613 00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:13,920 Speaker 1: experienced that kind of loss, that kind of whole I 614 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:17,320 Speaker 1: do still see in my community people that sort of 615 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:21,280 Speaker 1: vaguely look like my brother, or look like my memory 616 00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:25,120 Speaker 1: of him, which really gets more dull as the years 617 00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:29,200 Speaker 1: go by. Logically I understand that, let's see, he would 618 00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:32,320 Speaker 1: be forty three now and he wouldn't look at all 619 00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:36,080 Speaker 1: like the person I remember, but it happens. I do 620 00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:38,560 Speaker 1: see him in passers by, and I do see him 621 00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:41,760 Speaker 1: as the bus driver, and I do see him watering 622 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:46,000 Speaker 1: the garden, and one time actually at a coffee shop 623 00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:49,520 Speaker 1: here where I had just moved here. As a poetry 624 00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:53,200 Speaker 1: fellow at the university, and I'm having a really great 625 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:58,439 Speaker 1: little work date with my fellow fellows, and one of 626 00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:03,320 Speaker 1: my friends, Yalitza, her landlord, comes into the coffee shop 627 00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:07,040 Speaker 1: and he looks so much like my brother that I 628 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:14,680 Speaker 1: literally start uncontrollably weeping in public, and people are just like, 629 00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:18,520 Speaker 1: what's going on. So it does happen. But along with 630 00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:22,120 Speaker 1: the working out that comes with the book is also 631 00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:25,799 Speaker 1: therapy and psychiatry and things like that. And I've come 632 00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:31,920 Speaker 1: to understand that the brother that I knew, whether or 633 00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:37,120 Speaker 1: not his physical body is alive or not, or here 634 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:43,600 Speaker 1: or not, that person is dead. And I am learning 635 00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:49,600 Speaker 1: to grieve late that death. And that's another reason why 636 00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:52,360 Speaker 1: I have named the collection Late to the Search Party, 637 00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:56,440 Speaker 1: because this is how grieving works, is it happens on 638 00:41:56,560 --> 00:42:00,120 Speaker 1: its own timeline. 639 00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:04,840 Speaker 2: Here's Stephen reading from a poem in his extraordinary collection 640 00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:13,680 Speaker 2: Late to the Search Party. 641 00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:18,160 Speaker 1: When you die, I'm convinced a bell will ring in 642 00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:22,719 Speaker 1: some far place inside me. You said you'd like to 643 00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:28,000 Speaker 1: run one day in a field of baby's breath. In 644 00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:33,640 Speaker 1: your dreams, all the cellos are near and out of tune. 645 00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:38,360 Speaker 1: In my dreams, wind chimes spell a word I can't 646 00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:42,320 Speaker 1: pronounce your death. The wind. 647 00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:47,839 Speaker 4: I cannot point to it. I can point to everything 648 00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:55,040 Speaker 4: it moves. 649 00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:04,880 Speaker 2: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. Molly Zacour is 650 00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:08,080 Speaker 2: the story editor and Dylan Fagan is the executive producer. 651 00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:10,680 Speaker 2: If you have a family secret you'd like to share, 652 00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:13,520 Speaker 2: please leave us a voicemail and your story could appear 653 00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:16,960 Speaker 2: on an upcoming episode. Our number is one eight eight 654 00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:21,160 Speaker 2: eight Secret zero. That's the number zero. You can also 655 00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:26,000 Speaker 2: find me on Instagram at Danny Rider. And if you'd 656 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:28,480 Speaker 2: like to know more about the story that inspired this podcast, 657 00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:52,000 Speaker 2: check out my memoir Inheritance. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 658 00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:55,640 Speaker 2: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 659 00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:56,600 Speaker 2: to your favorite shows.