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Speaker 1: Pushkin.

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Speaker 2: When was the last time you did something just for fun?

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Speaker 2: You know, not because you had to or you were

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Speaker 2: supposed to, but just for the sheer enjoyment of it.

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Speaker 2: If your mind is drawing an embarrassing blank right now,

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Speaker 2: don't worry, you're not alone. Between work and family and

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Speaker 2: our never-ending to-do lists, fun often gets pushed to the

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Speaker 2: bottom of our priority list, if it even makes that

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Speaker 2: list at all. But are we getting our to-do lists

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Speaker 2: all wrong? What if having fun isn't just a nice

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Speaker 2: bonus in life, but something that's essential to our health,

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Speaker 2: our happiness, and even the well-being of the world around us? Today,

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Speaker 2: for this latest installment in our series of live conversations,

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Speaker 2: I'll be taking you to the Aspen Ideas Festival, where

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Speaker 2: I had the chance to speak to two experts who

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Speaker 2: take fun very seriously. Katherine Price is an award-winning journalist

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Speaker 2: and the best-selling author of How to Break Up with

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Speaker 2: Your Phone and The Power of Fun. Katherine is also

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Speaker 2: my personal guru when it comes to all things delightful.

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Speaker 2: OG listeners of the Happiness Lab will probably remember that

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Speaker 2: Katherine staged a funtervention for me a few years ago,

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Speaker 2: at a time when I really needed it badly. Joining

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Speaker 2: Katherine and me on stage is another one of my

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Speaker 2: academic idols, Liz Dunn. Liz is a psychology professor at

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Speaker 2: the University of British Columbia and the author of both

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Speaker 2: Happy Money, The Science of Happier Spending, and a new

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Speaker 2: co-authored book, Leave the Lights On, How Joyful Decisions Can

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Speaker 2: Save Our Species. Liz studies how the choices we make

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Speaker 2: about our time, money, and technology affect our happiness. She

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Speaker 2: also violates the usual stereotype I have of happiness experts.

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Speaker 2: You see, when you work in the happiness space, you

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Speaker 2: meet a lot of so-called happiness gurus who ironically are

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Speaker 2: not themselves all that happy. But Liz is different. She

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Speaker 2: genuinely practices what she preaches. She's actually one of the

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Speaker 2: happiest happiness experts that I know. So get ready for

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Speaker 2: Liz and Catherine and I to share a very serious

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Speaker 2: take on fun, live from the Aspen Ideas Festival. Our

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Speaker 2: minds are constantly telling us what to do to be happy.

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Speaker 2: But what if our minds are wrong? What if our

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Speaker 2: minds are lying to us, leading us away from what

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Speaker 2: will really make us happy? The good news is that

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Speaker 2: understanding the science of the mind can point us all

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Speaker 2: back in the right direction. You're listening to The Happiness

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Speaker 2: Lab with Dr. Laurie Santos. This time coming to you

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Speaker 2: live from the Aspen Ideas Festival.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Catherine, since you've written most directly on fun, I

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Speaker 1: wanted to start with your origin story when it came

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Speaker 1: to thinking about the importance of fun. And as I

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Speaker 1: understand it, your interest in this topic happened during a

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Speaker 1: surprisingly unfun existential moment of screen-free downtime. Tell me about

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Speaker 1: this pivotal moment and what happened next.

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Speaker 3: It's always good to start fun talks with existential malaise.

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Speaker 3: So I'm glad you started there. Yeah, I had written

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Speaker 3: a book called How to Break Up with Your Phone,

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Speaker 3: which is what it sounds like. It's a book that

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Speaker 3: gives a guide to how to create a better relationship

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Speaker 3: with your phone. It was to solve my own problem

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Speaker 3: because I realized I was spending more time on my

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Speaker 3: phone than I wanted to. But I didn't realize it

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Speaker 3: was opening up a whole new problem for myself, which

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Speaker 3: is that once I had more free time, I didn't

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Speaker 3: really know what to do with it. And I had

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Speaker 3: a moment that Laurie's referring to where I was alone

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Speaker 3: on my couch, the site of many existential crises. And

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Speaker 3: my daughter who was then a baby was napping and

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Speaker 3: my husband was out of the house. I had this

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Speaker 3: whole hour in front of me. It should have been

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Speaker 3: this amazing opportunity. Should have been so excited. But we

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Speaker 3: were deliberately taking a break from screens that day. We

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Speaker 3: were doing a digital Sabbath and I realized I didn't

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Speaker 3: know what I wanted to do. Like, honestly, the last

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Speaker 3: thing I wanted to do was read a book because

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Speaker 3: that's my job. And I just thought, oh my God,

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Speaker 3: I like to think of myself as a self-aware person

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Speaker 3: who lives fully and I can't think of anything to do.

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Speaker 3: And so I asked myself a question. I asked when

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Speaker 3: I was writing How to Break Up With Your Phone

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Speaker 3: that I post to you all today now, which is

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Speaker 3: what's something you say you want to do, but you

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Speaker 3: supposedly don't have time for? Hmm. Because what I realized

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Speaker 3: is I did have time. In fact, I had this

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Speaker 3: reclaimed time, but I didn't know what I wanted to

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Speaker 3: do with it. So I said, well, I want to

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Speaker 3: learn how to play the guitar because I play piano.

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Speaker 3: I had a guitar that my grandmother had given me

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Speaker 3: money for in college. So I started going to this

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Speaker 3: guitar class and I started being filled with this feeling,

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Speaker 3: this unfamiliar at that stage in my life, feeling this energetic,

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Speaker 3: joyful feeling. And I was like, what's the word for this?

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Speaker 3: And I'm going to blame this on early parenthood that

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Speaker 3: I couldn't think of the word, but the word was fun.

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Speaker 3: And so I got fascinated by what is fun and

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Speaker 3: how can I have more of it? And when I

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Speaker 3: looked into the research on fun, at that moment, if

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Speaker 3: you looked it up in PubMed, the number one hit

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Speaker 3: that came up was putting the fun in fungi. And

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Speaker 3: it was an article about toenail fungus. And the science

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Speaker 3: journalist in me was like, oh, that's intriguing. I want

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Speaker 3: to do something with this. And then I also realized

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Speaker 3: that the definition of fun in the dictionary didn't match

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Speaker 3: up to the feeling I was experiencing. So that led

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Speaker 3: me to write this book, The Power of Fun, which

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Speaker 3: led me and Lori to connect for a funtervention. And

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Speaker 3: here we are today.

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Speaker 1: And so one of the things I adored about your

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Speaker 1: book was that you tried to take on the hard

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Speaker 1: task of defining fun, which maybe isn't so fun, but

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Speaker 1: you got to do this as a nerdy scientist looking

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Speaker 1: at stuff. You did this deep dive and got hundreds

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Speaker 1: and hundreds of examples of fun from people all over

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Speaker 1: the world. And you tried to distill what they were

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Speaker 1: experiencing in these great moments down to three factors, three

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Speaker 1: parts of fun. What are these different parts?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so... Fun is a feeling, first of all. It's

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Speaker 3: not an activity. And different people get that feeling from

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Speaker 3: different things. Like some people might find it actually quite

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Speaker 3: fun to do a dorky explanation as to what is fun.

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Speaker 3: When I read through the stories, I noticed that there

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Speaker 3: was this profound sense of joy running through them. The

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Speaker 3: details of the stories were all different, but they were

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Speaker 3: so joyful. They also made me cry when I was

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Speaker 3: reading them. There was something very powerful and deeply human

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Speaker 3: about them. And the definition I ended up coming up

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Speaker 3: with is that there are these three factors in play.

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Speaker 3: One is playfulness. That's the hardest for adults, especially adults

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Speaker 3: like us, to grasp. It doesn't mean you have to

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Speaker 3: play games. It's about having a lighthearted attitude, letting your

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Speaker 3: guard down, having your inner critic be silenced and not

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Speaker 3: taking yourself too seriously. That was present in play. A

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Speaker 3: sense of release and letting go. Also, connection. So playfulness

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Speaker 3: and connection, connection being the feeling of having a special

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Speaker 3: shared experience, normally with another person, occasionally with a dog.

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Speaker 3: This was actually interestingly true even for introverts. People told me,

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Speaker 3: I'm a self-proclaimed introvert, but everything I told you, all

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Speaker 3: the stories involve another person. And the third factor is flow.

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Speaker 3: So the state you get into when you're totally actively

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Speaker 3: engaged in something to the point that you lose track

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Speaker 3: of time, whether it's a great conversation or you're playing

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Speaker 3: a piece of music, or you can think of an

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Speaker 3: athlete playing a game, that's total flow. The man who

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Speaker 3: coined the term was actually studying rock climbers. So playfulness

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Speaker 3: and connection and flow. And I just want to point

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Speaker 3: out that flow in particular, you can't be in flow

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Speaker 3: if you're distracted, which we'll get to more in a minute.

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Speaker 3: And also you can lose track of time if you're

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Speaker 3: just binge watching Netflix, but that's not the same thing.

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Speaker 3: That's really junk flow. True flow is when you're actively

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Speaker 3: engaged and present.

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Speaker 1: OK, so this is our definition of fun that we're

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Speaker 1: working with, a playful, connected flow. Liz, ideally, all episodes

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Speaker 1: of fun have these three ingredients. But in one of

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Speaker 1: my favorite of your recent papers, you took kind of

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Speaker 1: a different approach that I loved to looking at the

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Speaker 1: behavioral gradients, not of fun per se, but of having

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Speaker 1: a good day. I was reminded of the Ice Cube

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Speaker 1: song from back in the day, like, today was a

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Speaker 1: good day. You did the paper analyzing ice cubes, today

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Speaker 1: was a good day. And so explain what the study

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Speaker 1: tried to do and what you found were the ingredients in.

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Speaker 3: A good day.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so we took advantage of this really amazing data

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Speaker 4: set in which thousands of Americans told the researchers whether

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Speaker 4: they had a particularly good day. Basically, was today better

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Speaker 4: than an average Friday? And fortunately, they also reported the

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Speaker 4: way they spent every minute.

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Speaker 3: Of their day.

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Speaker 4: So we could actually chart how they spent the minutes

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Speaker 4: of their day and how that related to whether today

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Speaker 4: actually turned out to be an especially good day. And

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Speaker 4: one of the things that we found was that socializing

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Speaker 4: emerged as one of the most important pieces of having

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Speaker 4: a good day. And so it really fits with what

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Speaker 4: you're saying in terms of that power of connection. Interestingly,

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Speaker 4: it turned out just having about one to two hours

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Speaker 4: of socializing in a day was enough to really kind

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Speaker 4: of max out that probability of having a good day.

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Speaker 1: You got to cut it off.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, you don't have to go more.

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Speaker 3: You can.

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Speaker 5: It doesn't hurt, but it kind of plateaus.

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Speaker 4: Although the interesting exception there was time with friends. Time

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Speaker 4: with friends was almost like chocolate chips in a cookie.

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Speaker 4: You can just add more and it keeps being better.

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Speaker 4: So that was pretty interesting. And We also found one

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Speaker 4: of the surprising findings in that data was that spending

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Speaker 4: time on relaxing and leisure was actually associated with a

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Speaker 4: lower probability of having an especially good day. And we

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Speaker 4: were like, I thought my grad student analyzed the data wrong.

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Speaker 4: I made him go back and look at it again.

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Speaker 4: But it turned out it was about 70% of the

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Speaker 4: time that people were engaged in leisure and relaxation. They

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Speaker 4: were actually like watching Netflix, watching TV. And again, going

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Speaker 4: to what you're saying about that sort of false flow

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Speaker 4: or whatever. It wasn't actually enhancing people's likelihood of having

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Speaker 4: a good day. In contrast, engaging in sports and exercise

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Speaker 4: did raise the likelihood of having a good day.

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Speaker 1: I'm curious about, just because I know we're in a

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Speaker 1: group of workaholics, myself included, what about work? Did that

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Speaker 1: factor in at all? Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So with work, you know, work gets a bad reputation

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Speaker 4: in happiness research. So as a happiness researcher, I've been

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Speaker 4: involved in a lot of studies where we see work

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Speaker 4: is not really where people feel the.

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Speaker 5: Happiest on average.

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Speaker 4: But interestingly, people could work for up to six hours

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Speaker 4: a day with no detrimental effect on their likelihood of

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Speaker 4: having an especially good day. However, once people were working

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Speaker 4: more than six hours a day, the probability of having

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Speaker 4: a really good day plummeted. So what this tells us

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Speaker 4: then is that maybe work isn't so bad.

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Speaker 5: I mean, I'm a happiness researcher. I love my job.

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Speaker 4: But when we're doing too much work, we may end

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Speaker 4: up kind of blocking out some of that time that

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Speaker 4: we could otherwise use for fun. So I think for

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Speaker 4: some of us, it's sort of a call to think

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Speaker 4: about rebalancing the way we spend our time.

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Speaker 1: And so we need to rebalance these ingredients to have

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Speaker 1: a little bit more fun. Before we get into how

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Speaker 1: to do that, though, I want to make the case

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Speaker 1: that fun matters. Right now we're at this festival that's

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Speaker 1: focused on big geopolitical threats. I think there's another conversation

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Speaker 1: going on about the singularity. By the time this session's over,

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Speaker 1: the AI is going to take over, so it might

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Speaker 1: be moot anyway. But there's sessions this morning about universities

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Speaker 1: and rebuilding social trust. We're talking about big issues here.

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Speaker 1: And so you might wonder why Aspen would focus on

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Speaker 1: a seemingly frivolous topic like fun. And so I want, Katherine,

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Speaker 1: you to make the case that fun is a serious topic.

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Speaker 1: It's still important to be talking about something like fun

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Speaker 1: at a place that cares about these big issues. Why

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Speaker 1: is fun such an important and such a serious topic?

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Speaker 1: I'm glad you asked that question, Lori, because it's really true.

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Speaker 1: People tend to think it's frivolous. When we think of fun,

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Speaker 1: we tend to think of it as being childish.

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Speaker 3: And it should be at the bottom of the priority list.

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Speaker 3: But I encourage everyone in the room to actually think

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Speaker 3: to yourself of a memory that stands out in your

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Speaker 3: own mind as having been really fun. Don't be horrified

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Speaker 3: if it takes a minute to get one of those.

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Speaker 3: It often does for adults. And also to share that

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Speaker 3: story with someone at this festival, maybe even after this

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Speaker 3: session is over. And just notice what it does to

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Speaker 3: your mood and your energy level to just think about

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Speaker 3: and share this past fun memory. Because I think that

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Speaker 3: that is one of the many things that fun does

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Speaker 3: for us and one of the many reasons that it

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Speaker 3: is not frivolous. So... If you back up for a second,

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Speaker 3: it's very difficult to concretely identify how fun is good

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Speaker 3: for us because as I said, there's no research on fun.

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Speaker 3: There's lots of research on playfulness and connection and flow though.

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Speaker 3: So if you buy my definition of that, you can

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Speaker 3: see that there's actually a lot of evidence there. So

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Speaker 3: one thing that it does for us is this energy boost.

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Speaker 3: The world is really exhausting. Adult life is really exhausting.

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Speaker 3: Our to-do lists are never ending. So if you can

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Speaker 3: do something that's actually going to boost your mood and

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Speaker 3: give you energy, that's going to help you go through

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Speaker 3: your own life feeling better, and also give you the

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Speaker 3: energy to be a better person to whoever you're living with,

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Speaker 3: to whoever you're working with, and also give you energy

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Speaker 3: to try to solve some of the problems, which I

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Speaker 3: know you're going to talk about, Liz, is how you

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Speaker 3: can actually harness this power of fun to work on

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Speaker 3: serious things. I would also say that it really has

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Speaker 3: the power to unite us, and I think that's extremely

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Speaker 3: important when we're living in such a polarized world where

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Speaker 3: it just seems like everything is us versus them. If

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Speaker 3: you think about some of your past fun experiences, even

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Speaker 3: momentary small things that were fun, like dancing at a

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Speaker 3: wedding with someone you didn't know or someone's strange relative

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Speaker 3: that you never would have interacted with otherwise. You can

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Speaker 3: see that it really erases differences. You actually don't see

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Speaker 3: people as political parties when you're having fun and laughing together.

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Speaker 3: You don't see them as different races or nationalities or religions.

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Speaker 3: So if you can have more moments of playful, connected

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Speaker 3: flow with someone, you're going to see them and connect

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Speaker 3: with them on a much more human level. And that, again,

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Speaker 3: makes it easier to solve serious problems. And I'll just

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Speaker 3: say another thing. I might even go on about the

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Speaker 3: benefits of fun. But one that really stood out to

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Speaker 3: me that's very much tied into the theme of loneliness

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Speaker 3: and what to do about it is that we now

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Speaker 3: know that being lonely and isolated really is bad for

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Speaker 3: us physically. probably in part because it raises our level

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Speaker 3: of cortisol, a major stress hormone that over time is

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Speaker 3: not good for us. But if you think about the

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Speaker 3: moments in which you have fun, they're moments in which

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Speaker 3: you're relaxed and open and also socially connected. And that's

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Speaker 3: the antidote to loneliness. So I personally really did come

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Speaker 3: away from writing the book, which again, it was a

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Speaker 3: professional attempt to solve a personal problem. I came away

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Speaker 3: really thinking that the way to be happy in the

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Speaker 3: long run and the way to have the energy to

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Speaker 3: be a better partner and be a better parent and

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Speaker 3: just do good in the world is to make sure that...

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Speaker 3: I and we are having enough fun.

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Speaker 2: So fun, this vibrant state of playfulness, connection, and flow

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Speaker 2: is super important for our health and our well-being. But

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Speaker 2: in our modern society that prioritizes overwork, where it's hard

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Speaker 2: to make room for basic things like sleep and exercise,

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Speaker 2: how do we find a little time for joy? After

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Speaker 2: the break, Liz and Catherine will help us tackle some

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Speaker 2: of the biggest obstacles standing between us and a little

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Speaker 2: more delight. The Happiness Lab will be right back.

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Speaker 1: When we think about how to get more fun, for me,

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Speaker 1: as I think about this, I have to think very

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Speaker 1: personally about what are some of my barriers to fun?

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Speaker 1: What prevents me from getting more social time, more playful,

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Speaker 1: connected flow? And one of my biggest barriers is something

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Speaker 1: that I know you've both written about a lot, which

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Speaker 1: is that I'm too busy. I have a grind. I

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Speaker 1: respect efficiency. I'm trying to fit so much work into

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Speaker 1: my day that just feels like I simply don't have

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Speaker 1: time for this playful connected flow. And Liz, I know

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Speaker 1: you and your former students have talked a lot about

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Speaker 1: the importance of valuing time and specifically this concept that

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Speaker 1: gets so much traction on my podcast, this idea of

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Speaker 1: time affluence. What is time affluence and why does it

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Speaker 1: matter so much and particularly if you're having more fun?

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Speaker 4: So in a nutshell, time affluence refers to having enough

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Speaker 4: time to do the things that are important to you.

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Speaker 4: And interestingly, as people become wealthier, more material affluent, they

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Speaker 4: actually seem to become less time affluent. So there seems

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Speaker 4: to be a kind of dynamic trade-off between material affluence

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Speaker 4: on the one hand and time affluence on the other.

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Speaker 4: And material affluence does matter for happiness, but so too

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Speaker 4: does time affluence. And one thing we've discovered is that

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Speaker 4: there are really substantial individual differences in the ways that

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Speaker 4: people think about time versus money and make these trade-offs.

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Speaker 4: And of course, this is a complex issue, but we've

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Speaker 4: found we can actually get a little bit of a

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Speaker 4: crystal ball into people's futures by asking them one very

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Speaker 4: simple question about how they sort of navigate trade-offs between

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Speaker 4: time and money. And in one recent study, we asked

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Speaker 4: students who were about to graduate from the University of

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Speaker 4: British Columbia whether they basically prioritized time or prioritized money.

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Speaker 5: And then we followed them. So we followed them after

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Speaker 5: they graduated.

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Speaker 4: And what we discovered was that students who prioritized time

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Speaker 4: over money during their last year at university actually ended

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Speaker 4: up happier a couple years after graduating. And when we

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Speaker 4: dug into the data, what we discovered was that students

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Speaker 4: who had really prioritized time were more likely to pursue

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Speaker 4: grad school or a career or a job that they

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Speaker 4: found inherently enjoyable and fun. And so they ended up happier.

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Speaker 4: And so there's this kind of pathway that we see

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Speaker 4: between creating time for yourself and to be able to

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Speaker 4: pursue the things you actually find fun that really do

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Speaker 4: have these consequential effects on.

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Speaker 5: Our overall happiness.

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Speaker 1: And then Catherine, you also have talked a lot about

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Speaker 1: time and the misconceptions we have about time and fun.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think what I would add to that is

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Speaker 3: that it It's very important for us as busy adults

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Speaker 3: to prioritize fun. And I know I was mentioning this before,

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Speaker 3: but it's too easy for fun to just end up

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Speaker 3: at the bottom of the list. I mean, I am

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Speaker 3: notorious for my to-do list. It's so satisfying to check

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Speaker 3: something off the to-do list. So one suggestion I would

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Speaker 3: have is to actually make a point of identifying what

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Speaker 3: I call your fun magnets. And those are the people,

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Speaker 3: the activities, and the settings that attract this feeling of

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Speaker 3: fun to you personally. And we all have different collections

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Speaker 3: of them, and yours may not be the same as

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Speaker 3: the person you live with. They might not like singing

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Speaker 3: along with me and Lori, and I don't understand them. Anyway,

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Speaker 3: but if you come up with this list of your

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Speaker 3: fun magnets, you now have a set of activities and

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Speaker 3: people and settings that you can prioritize in your busy life,

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Speaker 3: and that if you do have some time affluence, you

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Speaker 3: can choose to spend on. So that's kind of a

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Speaker 3: way to make space for fun and engineer it to

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Speaker 3: a certain degree, because it's not the case that you're

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Speaker 3: going to always have maximum fun doing this activity that

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Speaker 3: you love. Even the most fun activities for you personally,

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Speaker 3: there's a varying degree of fun that can come out

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Speaker 3: of that. If you have a dinner with a uproariously,

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Speaker 3: and the next time it's like, meh, you know what

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Speaker 3: I mean. But at least you'll have a better chance

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Speaker 3: than if you're just continuing to try to do your

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Speaker 3: to-do list for eight to 10 to 12 hours a day.

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Speaker 3: And the other thing I would say is that you

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Speaker 3: also need to make room for spontaneous fun and finding

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Speaker 3: moments in your pre-existing life to incorporate a little bit

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Speaker 3: more playfulness, a little bit more connection, a little bit

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Speaker 3: more flow. And that's something you can do no matter

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Speaker 3: what you're doing. You can do it in the middle

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Speaker 3: of a work meeting. you know, by making a joke

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Speaker 3: with a friend or a colleague. You can do it

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Speaker 3: by putting it on your phone and connecting with the

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Speaker 3: person who's serving you coffee or saying hello to someone,

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Speaker 3: you know, whoever's delivering your mail. Little moments. And those

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Speaker 3: really do add up. So I think you can carve

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Speaker 3: out time for more fun and put your fun magnets

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Speaker 3: in those. You can also look up from your phone

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Speaker 3: and just notice more opportunities for playfulness, connection, or flow.

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Speaker 1: And that is a nice transition to one of my

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Speaker 1: second barriers to fun, which is my phone. In theory,

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Speaker 1: my phone should help me with fun. I should be

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Speaker 1: able to, I don't know, play video games with friends

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Speaker 1: or do something. But instead, it winds up just being

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Speaker 1: a horrible distraction. Catherine, you had this lovely quote in

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Speaker 1: your book that distraction is kryptonite to fun. Explain why

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Speaker 1: that is.

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Speaker 3: Well, again, if you believe my definition of playful connected flow...

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Speaker 3: flow is a state of being totally engaged and present.

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Speaker 3: Anything that kicks you out of that state of flow,

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Speaker 3: anything that distracts you, rather, is going to kick you

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Speaker 3: out of flow. And if you're not in flow, you're

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Speaker 3: not going to be able to truly have fun. And

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Speaker 3: we've all had that experience where you're, for example, out

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Speaker 3: to dinner and you are laughing, but then someone gets

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Speaker 3: a text and they reach for their phone and suddenly

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Speaker 3: that moment is broken. So I really say that that

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Speaker 3: is the main reason why our phones are kryptonite to

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Speaker 3: fun is that they're constantly distracting us and they're constantly

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Speaker 3: taking us out of our present experience and taking us

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Speaker 3: away from the people we're with, whether they're It's our

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Speaker 3: friends or our children or our colleagues and taking us

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Speaker 3: somewhere else. And you just can't have fun if you're

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Speaker 3: trying to be in two places at once.

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Speaker 1: And I think this is something we know from our

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Speaker 1: lived experience, but I think understanding the science of how

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Speaker 1: it works can make it even more compelling. And Liz,

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Speaker 1: you've done this really excellent work just showing the subtle

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Speaker 1: ways that our phones steal our attention and particularly steal

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Speaker 1: our attention for one of these components of fun, which

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Speaker 1: is kind of this connected part. Tell me about some

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Speaker 1: of these studies. I find them very depressing, but very...

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Speaker 1: important and interesting to press.

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Speaker 4: Us yeah well first let me just say i don't

432
00:19:39,496 --> 00:19:41,436
Speaker 4: think smartphones are the root of all evil and that

433
00:19:41,456 --> 00:19:43,236
Speaker 4: they're responsible for all our problems and if we got

434
00:19:43,276 --> 00:19:45,416
Speaker 4: rid of them everything would be fine i think that's

435
00:19:45,476 --> 00:19:48,016
Speaker 4: a simplified view but and i say that as someone

436
00:19:48,036 --> 00:19:50,726
Speaker 4: whose research is cited in defense of that view but

437
00:19:51,026 --> 00:19:54,826
Speaker 4: our research does clearly suggest that smartphones can take away

438
00:19:54,946 --> 00:19:57,806
Speaker 4: from the pleasure of being with other people and so

439
00:19:57,846 --> 00:20:00,376
Speaker 4: for example in one study we basically took over a

440
00:20:00,556 --> 00:20:03,496
Speaker 4: table at a local restaurant for about six months. And

441
00:20:03,576 --> 00:20:05,676
Speaker 4: every night, we would bring in a different group of

442
00:20:05,716 --> 00:20:08,576
Speaker 4: friends and family to have dinner together on our tab.

443
00:20:09,036 --> 00:20:11,886
Speaker 5: And we just had one simple manipulation that we did.

444
00:20:11,926 --> 00:20:14,306
Speaker 4: Basically, by the flip of a coin, we either assigned

445
00:20:14,426 --> 00:20:16,586
Speaker 4: everybody at the table to have their phones out and

446
00:20:16,626 --> 00:20:19,726
Speaker 4: available or to put their phones away. Now, importantly, we

447
00:20:19,766 --> 00:20:22,486
Speaker 4: just sort of mentioned this casually embedded among some other

448
00:20:22,526 --> 00:20:24,866
Speaker 4: housekeeping details of the study. And this is really important

449
00:20:24,886 --> 00:20:28,176
Speaker 4: because people have very powerful theories about how phones affect

450
00:20:28,606 --> 00:20:29,766
Speaker 4: each other, affect themselves.

451
00:20:30,036 --> 00:20:32,056
Speaker 5: So we didn't want those theories on the table. We

452
00:20:32,096 --> 00:20:34,416
Speaker 5: wanted just to see what happened when we actually changed this.

453
00:20:34,976 --> 00:20:38,136
Speaker 4: And what we discovered was, first of all, as Catherine mentioned,

454
00:20:38,516 --> 00:20:42,206
Speaker 4: people felt significantly more distracted when they had their phones

455
00:20:42,296 --> 00:20:45,026
Speaker 4: out and available during dinner. And what was interesting about

456
00:20:45,066 --> 00:20:46,866
Speaker 4: this is they weren't on their phones that much. It

457
00:20:46,906 --> 00:20:49,626
Speaker 4: wasn't like that stereotypical image of four teenagers just sitting

458
00:20:49,666 --> 00:20:51,466
Speaker 4: on their... It wasn't that often that they were on

459
00:20:51,486 --> 00:20:54,236
Speaker 4: their phones. But still, it was enough to create this

460
00:20:54,256 --> 00:20:57,296
Speaker 4: form of distraction. And we saw that at the end

461
00:20:57,316 --> 00:20:58,996
Speaker 4: of the meal, again, people didn't know this study had

462
00:20:59,116 --> 00:21:00,916
Speaker 4: anything to do with phone use, but at the end

463
00:21:00,956 --> 00:21:03,156
Speaker 4: of the meal, groups who had had their phones out

464
00:21:03,196 --> 00:21:06,146
Speaker 4: and available rated the whole experience of dining with their

465
00:21:06,186 --> 00:21:09,206
Speaker 4: friends and family as less enjoyable compared to those who

466
00:21:09,246 --> 00:21:11,946
Speaker 4: simply had been told to put their phones away. And

467
00:21:12,126 --> 00:21:14,816
Speaker 4: perhaps most interestingly, and again, kind of surprisingly, but tying

468
00:21:14,836 --> 00:21:18,256
Speaker 4: in with what Lori suggested, is that People reported being

469
00:21:18,756 --> 00:21:22,016
Speaker 4: more bored when they had access to their phones. And again,

470
00:21:22,076 --> 00:21:24,686
Speaker 4: our theory about this is that people are sort of

471
00:21:24,806 --> 00:21:27,506
Speaker 4: slipping out of that moment and losing the flow, as

472
00:21:27,566 --> 00:21:31,776
Speaker 4: Catherine has highlighted, of being in that conversation so that

473
00:21:31,796 --> 00:21:33,116
Speaker 4: it just doesn't feel right.

474
00:21:33,596 --> 00:21:34,376
Speaker 5: As interesting.

475
00:21:34,796 --> 00:21:37,706
Speaker 4: Now, we also videotape people, so if you ever get

476
00:21:37,736 --> 00:21:40,286
Speaker 4: invited to have dinner on my tab, be aware, you're

477
00:21:40,306 --> 00:21:43,346
Speaker 4: probably being videotaped, and I'm probably manipulating something you're not

478
00:21:43,386 --> 00:21:46,556
Speaker 4: aware of, but when we went back and coded these videotapes,

479
00:21:46,576 --> 00:21:49,176
Speaker 4: what we could see was that phone use was contagious,

480
00:21:49,376 --> 00:21:52,036
Speaker 4: so when one person used their phone, Other people use

481
00:21:52,076 --> 00:21:54,486
Speaker 4: their phone. And so actually you don't even have to

482
00:21:54,516 --> 00:21:57,766
Speaker 4: be like scoldy with people. Just putting away your own

483
00:21:57,846 --> 00:22:00,766
Speaker 4: phone at dinner and not touching it will have ripple

484
00:22:00,826 --> 00:22:03,966
Speaker 4: effects and will make the whole experience more fun for everybody.

485
00:22:04,006 --> 00:22:05,786
Speaker 5: So that would be a good practical challenge.

486
00:22:05,926 --> 00:22:07,766
Speaker 4: Like let's put our phones away and see what we

487
00:22:07,786 --> 00:22:09,546
Speaker 4: can do to create fun at these meals.

488
00:22:11,226 --> 00:22:13,646
Speaker 1: Yeah. Snap, snap for that one. Catherine, you have this

489
00:22:13,726 --> 00:22:15,656
Speaker 1: whole book on how to break up with your phone,

490
00:22:15,676 --> 00:22:17,716
Speaker 1: which I think is mistaken. I think people assume that

491
00:22:17,736 --> 00:22:19,336
Speaker 1: you're going to like compel people to break up with

492
00:22:19,356 --> 00:22:20,676
Speaker 1: their phones, but I really take your book as sort

493
00:22:20,696 --> 00:22:22,516
Speaker 1: of couples counseling for the phone. You don't have to

494
00:22:22,536 --> 00:22:24,076
Speaker 1: break up with it yet, but like give it a

495
00:22:24,106 --> 00:22:27,226
Speaker 1: little help there. Any other ideas beyond what Liz suggested

496
00:22:27,266 --> 00:22:28,726
Speaker 1: for how to do this better? Yeah.

497
00:22:28,906 --> 00:22:31,006
Speaker 3: I mean, I would say it's, I do think you

498
00:22:31,026 --> 00:22:32,886
Speaker 3: should break up with your phone in the sense of

499
00:22:32,946 --> 00:22:34,726
Speaker 3: it's not a good relationship right now. I mean, if

500
00:22:34,766 --> 00:22:36,686
Speaker 3: you think it's not a good relationship, you do you.

501
00:22:36,746 --> 00:22:39,466
Speaker 3: But then find a better relationship that can involve your phone.

502
00:22:39,506 --> 00:22:41,346
Speaker 3: And as Liz was just alluding to, I don't think

503
00:22:41,386 --> 00:22:43,966
Speaker 3: any of us are anti-tech as a bottom line. You

504
00:22:44,006 --> 00:22:45,906
Speaker 3: could plan that dinner by calling or texting your friends.

505
00:22:46,066 --> 00:22:48,866
Speaker 3: Just use it as a tool. So there are lots

506
00:22:48,906 --> 00:22:50,606
Speaker 3: of tips and tricks out there you probably have heard

507
00:22:50,626 --> 00:22:53,626
Speaker 3: that are effective, like Grayscale or reducing your notifications or

508
00:22:53,666 --> 00:22:56,186
Speaker 3: please redesign your home screen so that it only contains

509
00:22:56,306 --> 00:22:58,506
Speaker 3: apps that are tools and not temptations for you. But

510
00:22:58,546 --> 00:23:00,376
Speaker 3: I personally think it's important to start from a higher

511
00:23:00,416 --> 00:23:03,776
Speaker 3: level or a level back that's more philosophical, which is

512
00:23:03,816 --> 00:23:05,536
Speaker 3: that we only have so many hours in the day.

513
00:23:05,796 --> 00:23:08,236
Speaker 3: We only have so many days in a year and

514
00:23:08,256 --> 00:23:10,996
Speaker 3: so many years in our lives. And we need to

515
00:23:11,036 --> 00:23:13,196
Speaker 3: decide how we want to spend them. Many of the

516
00:23:13,256 --> 00:23:15,756
Speaker 3: most time-sucking apps on our phones are time-sucking because they've

517
00:23:15,776 --> 00:23:18,116
Speaker 3: been designed to steal our attention from us. But that's

518
00:23:18,136 --> 00:23:21,426
Speaker 3: really our most valuable resource. If you spend time with someone,

519
00:23:21,446 --> 00:23:22,946
Speaker 3: as Liz was just saying, but you're on your phone,

520
00:23:23,226 --> 00:23:25,946
Speaker 3: you're not really fully together. You're together when you're paying

521
00:23:25,966 --> 00:23:28,986
Speaker 3: attention to each other. So the thing that really stuck

522
00:23:29,006 --> 00:23:30,586
Speaker 3: with me after writing How to Break Up With Your

523
00:23:30,606 --> 00:23:32,446
Speaker 3: Phone was a question I also encourage you to ask

524
00:23:32,466 --> 00:23:34,926
Speaker 3: yourselves repeatedly, which is what do you want to pay

525
00:23:34,946 --> 00:23:38,156
Speaker 3: attention to? What is important for you to pay attention to?

526
00:23:38,176 --> 00:23:40,196
Speaker 3: Because if you don't make that decision, there's a company

527
00:23:40,236 --> 00:23:42,786
Speaker 3: out there that's going to make it for you. And

528
00:23:43,026 --> 00:23:44,786
Speaker 3: that's not to say that you won't necessarily decide that

529
00:23:44,806 --> 00:23:46,106
Speaker 3: you want to pay attention to your phone at a

530
00:23:46,126 --> 00:23:48,426
Speaker 3: particular minute. But the point is to make it a choice,

531
00:23:48,736 --> 00:23:51,536
Speaker 3: not the default and not because you've been manipulated. And

532
00:23:51,556 --> 00:23:53,036
Speaker 3: I do have a technique that I can offer you

533
00:23:53,076 --> 00:23:56,276
Speaker 3: that I've shared with Lori before called WWW, which is

534
00:23:56,296 --> 00:23:59,666
Speaker 3: short for What For? Why Now? what else that you

535
00:23:59,706 --> 00:24:02,046
Speaker 3: can use if you notice yourself picking up your phone.

536
00:24:02,346 --> 00:24:04,746
Speaker 3: The first W is what for? What did you pick

537
00:24:04,786 --> 00:24:06,586
Speaker 3: up your phone for? Did you have a purpose in

538
00:24:06,606 --> 00:24:08,286
Speaker 3: this moment? Because you might have. You might have been

539
00:24:08,306 --> 00:24:10,226
Speaker 3: calling those friends or texting them to get together for

540
00:24:10,266 --> 00:24:12,906
Speaker 3: dinner or buying a specific thing, sending a specific email.

541
00:24:13,206 --> 00:24:14,546
Speaker 3: But you also might find that you didn't really have

542
00:24:14,566 --> 00:24:17,386
Speaker 3: a specific purpose. Then the next step is why now?

543
00:24:17,646 --> 00:24:20,006
Speaker 3: What about this moment led you to reach for your phone?

544
00:24:20,136 --> 00:24:23,296
Speaker 3: There might, again, be an actual specific time-sensitive reason, but

545
00:24:23,336 --> 00:24:25,436
Speaker 3: in many cases it's going to be emotional. You're going

546
00:24:25,456 --> 00:24:27,996
Speaker 3: to recognize there was a moment of boredom, or you're

547
00:24:28,016 --> 00:24:29,836
Speaker 3: with a friend and they pulled out their phone, or

548
00:24:29,996 --> 00:24:32,216
Speaker 3: you're working and you want a distraction, or you're a

549
00:24:32,216 --> 00:24:34,726
Speaker 3: little lonely and you're seeking connection. So this is something

550
00:24:34,746 --> 00:24:36,726
Speaker 3: Charles Duhigg talks a lot about in The Power of Habit,

551
00:24:36,746 --> 00:24:38,526
Speaker 3: but if you can identify the reward that your brain

552
00:24:38,566 --> 00:24:40,406
Speaker 3: is after, you can figure out a different way to

553
00:24:40,446 --> 00:24:42,366
Speaker 3: give your brain that reward. And that leads to the

554
00:24:42,406 --> 00:24:44,226
Speaker 3: third step. So you've got what for, why now, and

555
00:24:44,246 --> 00:24:46,236
Speaker 3: then what else? What else could you do in that

556
00:24:46,266 --> 00:24:49,056
Speaker 3: moment to give yourself that reward? Could you actually call

557
00:24:49,116 --> 00:24:51,336
Speaker 3: a friend instead of turning to social media for connection?

558
00:24:51,356 --> 00:24:53,516
Speaker 3: Because we all know that doesn't really work. Can you

559
00:24:53,976 --> 00:24:55,496
Speaker 3: take a break from work by going for a little

560
00:24:55,536 --> 00:24:57,666
Speaker 3: walk instead of just scrolling through the news, which also

561
00:24:57,726 --> 00:24:59,506
Speaker 3: is not going to make you feel better. And then

562
00:24:59,526 --> 00:25:01,466
Speaker 3: I'd also say that you might decide that you don't

563
00:25:01,486 --> 00:25:03,226
Speaker 3: want to do anything. And speaking to the idea of

564
00:25:03,286 --> 00:25:05,506
Speaker 3: boredom and the value of boredom and empty space in

565
00:25:05,546 --> 00:25:07,306
Speaker 3: our minds, you might decide that just staring at a

566
00:25:07,346 --> 00:25:09,716
Speaker 3: wall or, as I often do in Ubers, like staring

567
00:25:09,746 --> 00:25:11,976
Speaker 3: out the window at a cloud is actually what you

568
00:25:11,996 --> 00:25:13,896
Speaker 3: want to be doing. Just don't be alarmed if the

569
00:25:13,936 --> 00:25:15,996
Speaker 3: driver asks you if you're okay, which is something that's

570
00:25:16,036 --> 00:25:18,816
Speaker 3: happened to me multiple times. I'm like, oh, I'm just

571
00:25:18,836 --> 00:25:20,916
Speaker 3: looking at a cloud. And the last thing I would

572
00:25:20,936 --> 00:25:22,516
Speaker 3: say is you could answer the what else, as I

573
00:25:22,536 --> 00:25:24,396
Speaker 3: was alluding to before, by saying, I actually want to

574
00:25:24,416 --> 00:25:26,096
Speaker 3: be looking at my phone right now, even if it's

575
00:25:26,116 --> 00:25:29,826
Speaker 3: for something as mindless as scrolling through social media. But again,

576
00:25:29,906 --> 00:25:32,546
Speaker 3: if you can just get better control over your attention,

577
00:25:32,606 --> 00:25:34,626
Speaker 3: it's going to make a big difference in how you

578
00:25:34,666 --> 00:25:37,226
Speaker 3: experience your life. Because what we pay attention to in

579
00:25:37,266 --> 00:25:39,406
Speaker 3: the moment is really a decision about how we're going

580
00:25:39,446 --> 00:25:40,766
Speaker 3: to live our lives more broadly.

581
00:25:41,926 --> 00:25:44,286
Speaker 2: But with so many serious problems in the world, is

582
00:25:44,326 --> 00:25:47,746
Speaker 2: having fun really something we should be prioritizing? When we

583
00:25:47,766 --> 00:25:50,086
Speaker 2: get back from the break, Liz and Catherine will explain

584
00:25:50,146 --> 00:25:52,906
Speaker 2: why fun might be even more important when times are tough,

585
00:25:53,726 --> 00:25:55,956
Speaker 2: and how a little more joy might be essential for

586
00:25:55,996 --> 00:26:00,076
Speaker 2: tackling some of the world's biggest challenges. Plus, I'll share

587
00:26:00,116 --> 00:26:02,996
Speaker 2: how embracing the old-school game Guitar Hero helped me rock

588
00:26:03,056 --> 00:26:07,036
Speaker 2: my way through some pretty tedious Zoom-filled workdays. More from

589
00:26:07,076 --> 00:26:10,446
Speaker 2: our live conversation at the Aspen Ideas Festival after these messages.

590
00:26:17,966 --> 00:26:19,626
Speaker 1: We had our barriers to fun. We had, I don't

591
00:26:19,646 --> 00:26:22,066
Speaker 1: have any time. I'm super distracted. I'm on my phone

592
00:26:22,086 --> 00:26:24,346
Speaker 1: all the time. Final barrier to fun. And this one

593
00:26:24,366 --> 00:26:26,166
Speaker 1: gets back to what my students talk about a lot

594
00:26:26,626 --> 00:26:28,956
Speaker 1: is this idea that like right now with the world

595
00:26:28,996 --> 00:26:31,476
Speaker 1: as it is, we are not supposed to have fun.

596
00:26:32,056 --> 00:26:35,436
Speaker 1: How can I be playful when the world is on fire?

597
00:26:35,476 --> 00:26:37,856
Speaker 1: How can I like be having fun like in this

598
00:26:37,896 --> 00:26:41,646
Speaker 1: connected way when politics is falling apart all around me,

599
00:26:41,686 --> 00:26:44,666
Speaker 1: when there's like wars everywhere and And I think this

600
00:26:44,706 --> 00:26:46,846
Speaker 1: is something that comes up a lot. And I think

601
00:26:46,886 --> 00:26:49,766
Speaker 1: there's lots of reasons to recognize that this is a misconception,

602
00:26:50,066 --> 00:26:52,576
Speaker 1: that during the tough times in the world and for yourself,

603
00:26:52,636 --> 00:26:54,656
Speaker 1: this might be exactly the time where you really, really

604
00:26:54,756 --> 00:26:59,486
Speaker 1: want to have fun. Interestingly, because making sure you're feeling good,

605
00:26:59,626 --> 00:27:02,706
Speaker 1: feeling happier might be connected to solving some of these

606
00:27:02,746 --> 00:27:06,326
Speaker 1: interesting problems. And Liz, your whole new book is actually

607
00:27:06,426 --> 00:27:09,736
Speaker 1: arguing that we can use focusing on our joy to

608
00:27:10,696 --> 00:27:14,256
Speaker 1: fix the climate crisis, which is definitely not something I

609
00:27:14,276 --> 00:27:15,556
Speaker 1: was expecting. I know you're going to figure out how

610
00:27:15,576 --> 00:27:17,256
Speaker 1: we can harness our time and our money to feel happier,

611
00:27:17,516 --> 00:27:20,316
Speaker 1: but not how we can harness like carbon to feel happier.

612
00:27:21,256 --> 00:27:24,116
Speaker 1: So given that it's such an unusual notion, explain what

613
00:27:24,156 --> 00:27:26,056
Speaker 1: you mean and give me some example of how we

614
00:27:26,076 --> 00:27:29,166
Speaker 1: can fight climate change through fun. Yeah.

615
00:27:29,206 --> 00:27:33,146
Speaker 4: So as Catherine said, fun is energizing and any social

616
00:27:33,186 --> 00:27:36,286
Speaker 4: movement needs energy. Any social movement I think needs fun,

617
00:27:36,326 --> 00:27:38,606
Speaker 4: it needs joy. And I think the climate movement has

618
00:27:38,646 --> 00:27:41,966
Speaker 4: been starved of it. So, you know, when we're in

619
00:27:41,986 --> 00:27:44,026
Speaker 4: a good mood, we tend to be better at thinking

620
00:27:44,106 --> 00:27:46,926
Speaker 4: of creative novel solutions, which is of course what we

621
00:27:46,966 --> 00:27:50,226
Speaker 4: need at this moment. And if we can make changes

622
00:27:50,306 --> 00:27:53,126
Speaker 4: in our own lives that we actually enjoy, it is

623
00:27:53,246 --> 00:27:56,366
Speaker 4: so much easier to stick with them than if we

624
00:27:56,546 --> 00:28:00,736
Speaker 4: are just pursuing self-sacrifice. So in our book, we kind

625
00:28:00,776 --> 00:28:04,076
Speaker 4: of chart this through every domain of life from work

626
00:28:04,136 --> 00:28:06,656
Speaker 4: and commuting to major.

627
00:28:06,476 --> 00:28:08,996
Speaker 5: Life decisions like whether to have kids and where to live.

628
00:28:09,316 --> 00:28:11,766
Speaker 4: But since this is a session on fun, I'm going

629
00:28:11,786 --> 00:28:13,586
Speaker 4: to focus on vacation and then I'll just touch on

630
00:28:13,646 --> 00:28:14,506
Speaker 4: voting as well.

631
00:28:14,906 --> 00:28:15,946
Speaker 5: So let's talk about vacation.

632
00:28:15,986 --> 00:28:16,306
Speaker 1: So vacation.

633
00:28:16,686 --> 00:28:18,606
Speaker 4: As a happiness researcher, I want people to have a

634
00:28:18,656 --> 00:28:22,536
Speaker 4: great time. Vacations are wonderful. But like the first thing

635
00:28:22,576 --> 00:28:25,656
Speaker 4: you learn about climate change is that flights are terrible, right?

636
00:28:25,696 --> 00:28:28,796
Speaker 4: Like flying is incredibly carbon intensive activity.

637
00:28:29,646 --> 00:28:30,846
Speaker 5: So how can we.

638
00:28:30,826 --> 00:28:35,546
Speaker 4: Enjoy vacation and keep our carbon footprint low? Well, interestingly,

639
00:28:35,566 --> 00:28:37,946
Speaker 4: I got some insight on this from a really cool

640
00:28:38,006 --> 00:28:40,656
Speaker 4: study by a Dutch researcher who went around to all

641
00:28:40,696 --> 00:28:43,876
Speaker 4: kinds of different tourist attractions and surveyed tourists. And he

642
00:28:43,916 --> 00:28:46,336
Speaker 4: wanted to figure out, what's the tourist activity that brings

643
00:28:46,376 --> 00:28:49,636
Speaker 4: people the greatest joy? And basically the first sort of

644
00:28:49,716 --> 00:28:52,386
Speaker 4: look at the data said, it doesn't really matter like

645
00:28:52,406 --> 00:28:55,666
Speaker 4: whether people are eating or shopping or visiting a historical

646
00:28:55,706 --> 00:28:58,406
Speaker 4: monument or museum, they're having a great time. Like all

647
00:28:58,446 --> 00:29:00,106
Speaker 4: these different things seem to put people in good mood.

648
00:29:00,526 --> 00:29:03,736
Speaker 4: The one exception was if most of their day had

649
00:29:03,746 --> 00:29:07,816
Speaker 4: been spent on travel. That sucked out the joy of tourism.

650
00:29:08,636 --> 00:29:11,276
Speaker 4: So what that tells us is that there's potentially an

651
00:29:11,316 --> 00:29:13,496
Speaker 4: opportunity to think about taking at least some of our

652
00:29:13,536 --> 00:29:17,746
Speaker 4: vacations closer to home. maybe even being a hometown tourist.

653
00:29:18,186 --> 00:29:22,866
Speaker 4: And interestingly, there's data showing that people rarely visit the

654
00:29:23,086 --> 00:29:26,526
Speaker 4: tourist attractions that bring other people to their own region.

655
00:29:26,946 --> 00:29:29,086
Speaker 4: In fact, the most likely times for people to visit

656
00:29:29,126 --> 00:29:31,746
Speaker 4: their hometown tourist attractions, maybe you can guess in your head,

657
00:29:31,886 --> 00:29:34,306
Speaker 4: are one, when people have visitors from out of town,

658
00:29:35,246 --> 00:29:37,466
Speaker 4: and two, when they themselves are about to move away.

659
00:29:39,546 --> 00:29:41,276
Speaker 4: So because these attractions are always there, we don't take

660
00:29:41,296 --> 00:29:44,036
Speaker 4: advantage of them. And so this just being a hometown

661
00:29:44,116 --> 00:29:46,706
Speaker 4: tourist is a great way to sort of capitalize on

662
00:29:46,726 --> 00:29:50,656
Speaker 4: the pleasures of tourism while having an incredibly low carbon footprint. Now,

663
00:29:50,736 --> 00:29:52,676
Speaker 4: that doesn't mean never go to Aspen.

664
00:29:52,776 --> 00:29:53,856
Speaker 5: Which is amazing.

665
00:29:54,276 --> 00:29:56,576
Speaker 4: But when you do it, really think about making it

666
00:29:56,616 --> 00:29:58,776
Speaker 4: a treat and thinking carefully about what I call the

667
00:29:58,816 --> 00:30:02,186
Speaker 4: return on emissions. Like, are you getting enough joy and

668
00:30:02,226 --> 00:30:04,746
Speaker 4: connection out of this experience? So I used to fly

669
00:30:04,826 --> 00:30:07,646
Speaker 4: in and out quickly for talks. And, you know, just

670
00:30:07,946 --> 00:30:09,626
Speaker 4: I was there and then I was gone. Now I'm like,

671
00:30:09,786 --> 00:30:12,816
Speaker 4: how long can I possibly stay and enjoy this experience

672
00:30:12,876 --> 00:30:14,996
Speaker 4: and meet everybody and do the, I did the yoga

673
00:30:15,036 --> 00:30:17,276
Speaker 4: this morning. You know, it's like do all the things,

674
00:30:17,616 --> 00:30:19,786
Speaker 4: suck the most joy out of every.

675
00:30:19,586 --> 00:30:23,466
Speaker 5: Pound of carbon you burn is sort of the key

676
00:30:23,506 --> 00:30:27,306
Speaker 5: idea here. So that's vacation. And that's a small thing.

677
00:30:27,376 --> 00:30:30,116
Speaker 4: It's an individual choice, but the same lens we can

678
00:30:30,156 --> 00:30:32,876
Speaker 4: apply to more systemic problems too. So if we think

679
00:30:32,896 --> 00:30:35,996
Speaker 4: about voting, it turns out happier people are more likely

680
00:30:36,056 --> 00:30:39,156
Speaker 4: to vote. Education is one of the best predictors of voting,

681
00:30:39,196 --> 00:30:42,476
Speaker 4: but life satisfaction is actually just as strong as education.

682
00:30:43,316 --> 00:30:46,986
Speaker 4: And I'm someone I've done like phone banking for elections.

683
00:30:47,346 --> 00:30:49,026
Speaker 4: It's not that fun. You're talking to a lot of

684
00:30:49,046 --> 00:30:51,186
Speaker 4: people who don't want to talk to you. And field

685
00:30:51,206 --> 00:30:54,866
Speaker 4: experiments actually show it is less effective to do phone

686
00:30:54,886 --> 00:30:58,846
Speaker 4: banking than to host a party near a polling place.

687
00:30:59,766 --> 00:31:03,526
Speaker 4: So bringing the joy, bringing the fun actually might be

688
00:31:03,646 --> 00:31:06,506
Speaker 4: more effective than some of these traditional strategies that we

689
00:31:06,546 --> 00:31:08,286
Speaker 4: look to to change the world.

690
00:31:08,476 --> 00:31:09,836
Speaker 3: Can I add one example to that? You just made

691
00:31:09,876 --> 00:31:11,516
Speaker 3: me think of like an actual example of that. I

692
00:31:11,636 --> 00:31:13,736
Speaker 3: live in Philadelphia and they had a get out the

693
00:31:13,776 --> 00:31:16,376
Speaker 3: vote party put on by Daybreaker, which is this organization

694
00:31:16,416 --> 00:31:19,476
Speaker 3: that does early morning sober dance parties right by city hall.

695
00:31:19,836 --> 00:31:23,936
Speaker 3: They had this DJ with incredibly loud music, pole dancers,

696
00:31:23,976 --> 00:31:30,796
Speaker 3: like with thongs. I And he talked about the Constitution,

697
00:31:31,396 --> 00:31:33,536
Speaker 3: and everybody danced, and I saw the pole dancers taking

698
00:31:33,556 --> 00:31:35,236
Speaker 3: pictures of Bill Nye the Science Guy, and then they

699
00:31:35,276 --> 00:31:37,396
Speaker 3: marched everybody over to City Hall to register to vote.

700
00:31:38,036 --> 00:31:38,976
Speaker 5: Yes, beautiful.

701
00:31:42,716 --> 00:31:45,226
Speaker 1: I mean, the power here is that when we think

702
00:31:45,286 --> 00:31:47,566
Speaker 1: about all these problems, we think that the only way

703
00:31:47,626 --> 00:31:50,566
Speaker 1: to solve them is by making ourselves miserable. But I

704
00:31:50,606 --> 00:31:52,656
Speaker 1: think what we're really hearing here with climate with so

705
00:31:52,696 --> 00:31:55,236
Speaker 1: many other things is like, if we figure out ways

706
00:31:55,296 --> 00:31:57,596
Speaker 1: that we can get in the ingredients of fun and

707
00:31:57,636 --> 00:32:00,856
Speaker 1: ingredients of happiness in solving these things. maybe we'd be

708
00:32:00,876 --> 00:32:01,276
Speaker 1: better off.

709
00:32:01,756 --> 00:32:01,976
Speaker 3: Okay.

710
00:32:01,996 --> 00:32:04,756
Speaker 1: So now in the few moments we have left, we

711
00:32:04,776 --> 00:32:06,316
Speaker 1: also want to talk about how we can use our

712
00:32:06,516 --> 00:32:09,176
Speaker 1: money to get more fun. And Liz, you wrote a

713
00:32:09,196 --> 00:32:11,776
Speaker 1: whole book called Happy Money about this. What are some

714
00:32:11,836 --> 00:32:14,116
Speaker 1: quick tips we could do to get better about spending

715
00:32:14,156 --> 00:32:15,816
Speaker 1: our money in ways that are actually going to deliver

716
00:32:15,886 --> 00:32:16,146
Speaker 1: on fun?

717
00:32:16,896 --> 00:32:18,876
Speaker 4: Well, I think one thing is, you know, I talked

718
00:32:18,996 --> 00:32:21,546
Speaker 4: before about the importance of time affluence. And our research

719
00:32:21,586 --> 00:32:25,006
Speaker 4: has shown that people who use money to buy time

720
00:32:25,426 --> 00:32:29,186
Speaker 4: by buying their way out of their dreaded tasks are happier.

721
00:32:28,826 --> 00:32:29,826
Speaker 5: Than those who do not.

722
00:32:30,966 --> 00:32:31,286
Speaker 3: But.

723
00:32:32,236 --> 00:32:33,756
Speaker 4: When I share this research with people, one thing they

724
00:32:33,776 --> 00:32:35,136
Speaker 4: say is, yeah, okay, you buy time, but then you

725
00:32:35,176 --> 00:32:36,976
Speaker 4: kind of get used to that extra time and it

726
00:32:37,016 --> 00:32:39,126
Speaker 4: just gets folded into, it's just, you know, you get

727
00:32:39,166 --> 00:32:41,006
Speaker 4: to item 11 instead of item 10.

728
00:32:40,886 --> 00:32:41,646
Speaker 5: Of your to-do list.

729
00:32:42,166 --> 00:32:43,866
Speaker 4: And so what I would say is like a cool,

730
00:32:43,946 --> 00:32:45,666
Speaker 4: I haven't demonstrated this scientifically, but I do do it

731
00:32:45,686 --> 00:32:48,796
Speaker 4: in my own life, is to buy that time and

732
00:32:49,096 --> 00:32:51,916
Speaker 4: And then really link it to like something fun that

733
00:32:51,936 --> 00:32:53,636
Speaker 4: you want to be able to do. So, you know,

734
00:32:53,756 --> 00:32:55,656
Speaker 4: the annoying thing you have to do once a month

735
00:32:55,716 --> 00:32:57,796
Speaker 4: on Saturdays, if you could buy your way out of

736
00:32:57,836 --> 00:33:00,256
Speaker 4: it and then think of like, what's the really fun

737
00:33:00,356 --> 00:33:03,096
Speaker 4: thing you could do during that Saturday instead and commit

738
00:33:03,116 --> 00:33:04,406
Speaker 4: to making that direct linkage.

739
00:33:04,686 --> 00:33:06,566
Speaker 1: Can I give my example that I've done since knowing

740
00:33:06,606 --> 00:33:09,206
Speaker 1: Liz's work about this? Now, every time I get takeout,

741
00:33:09,286 --> 00:33:11,026
Speaker 1: especially the takeout that comes on a day when you're

742
00:33:11,046 --> 00:33:12,946
Speaker 1: like just really exhausted and you just like can't even

743
00:33:12,966 --> 00:33:15,546
Speaker 1: in the kitchen and you buy that takeout. I put

744
00:33:15,586 --> 00:33:18,126
Speaker 1: a timestamp on that take. I just bought Pad Thai.

745
00:33:18,166 --> 00:33:19,736
Speaker 1: If I tried to cook Pad Thai myself, that'd be

746
00:33:19,776 --> 00:33:22,896
Speaker 1: like an hour to at least two hours. What am

747
00:33:22,916 --> 00:33:24,716
Speaker 1: I going to do with that two hours? Right. I

748
00:33:24,736 --> 00:33:26,376
Speaker 1: was going to buy the Pad Thai anyway, but just

749
00:33:26,416 --> 00:33:30,466
Speaker 1: that little shift can let me use that time a Katherine,

750
00:33:30,486 --> 00:33:32,706
Speaker 1: I know you've talked about a misconception that we have

751
00:33:32,766 --> 00:33:35,066
Speaker 1: when it comes to time and fun, that like fun

752
00:33:35,106 --> 00:33:37,906
Speaker 1: really requires lots and lots of hours of time. What's

753
00:33:37,946 --> 00:33:39,746
Speaker 1: wrong with that idea when it comes to how people

754
00:33:39,806 --> 00:33:40,766
Speaker 1: really engage with fun?

755
00:33:41,006 --> 00:33:43,156
Speaker 3: Yeah, you don't need that much time or money. Although

756
00:33:43,176 --> 00:33:45,536
Speaker 3: I will say what you both said ties in perfectly

757
00:33:45,576 --> 00:33:47,156
Speaker 3: to the idea. If you figure out how much your

758
00:33:47,176 --> 00:33:50,156
Speaker 3: pad tie is worth in time and you figure out

759
00:33:50,176 --> 00:33:52,196
Speaker 3: those fun magnets we were talking about, that's when you

760
00:33:52,216 --> 00:33:54,256
Speaker 3: put this all together and you say, okay, on Saturday,

761
00:33:54,336 --> 00:33:56,516
Speaker 3: I'm going to carve out my pad tie two hours

762
00:33:56,556 --> 00:33:59,196
Speaker 3: or whatever to do that thing I identified. I like

763
00:33:59,236 --> 00:34:00,926
Speaker 3: that idea. I might try to do that myself because

764
00:34:00,946 --> 00:34:03,486
Speaker 3: that also plays mental games with yourself where you're like, ah, yes,

765
00:34:03,546 --> 00:34:06,286
Speaker 3: I've justified it to myself more. Sorry, I'm working through

766
00:34:06,306 --> 00:34:07,286
Speaker 3: my own issues.

767
00:34:07,366 --> 00:34:10,986
Speaker 1: Anyway, all research is me search. We're just working things out.

768
00:34:12,266 --> 00:34:14,746
Speaker 3: You don't need lots of time or money. And I

769
00:34:14,766 --> 00:34:16,826
Speaker 3: would say for the money part, one of my favorite

770
00:34:16,866 --> 00:34:18,286
Speaker 3: stories that someone shared with me when I was doing

771
00:34:18,326 --> 00:34:19,886
Speaker 3: research for my book is how he had a ton

772
00:34:19,906 --> 00:34:22,786
Speaker 3: of fun. sitting on a park bench with his nephew,

773
00:34:22,846 --> 00:34:24,866
Speaker 3: just catching leaves, trying to catch leaves as they fell

774
00:34:24,906 --> 00:34:27,436
Speaker 3: off a tree. And I thought that was so beautiful.

775
00:34:27,596 --> 00:34:30,156
Speaker 3: It's obviously free. And I was like, you're actually making,

776
00:34:30,176 --> 00:34:32,036
Speaker 3: because I like to say, you know, there's opportunities for

777
00:34:32,116 --> 00:34:34,096
Speaker 3: fun floating around us in the air all the time.

778
00:34:34,136 --> 00:34:35,696
Speaker 3: We just have to reach out and grab them. And

779
00:34:35,716 --> 00:34:38,416
Speaker 3: I'm like, you just made that literal. Thank you so much, Joe,

780
00:34:38,616 --> 00:34:40,336
Speaker 3: that guy who told me that story. But you also

781
00:34:40,376 --> 00:34:42,376
Speaker 3: don't need that much time. I mean, you should carve

782
00:34:42,396 --> 00:34:43,966
Speaker 3: out the time on your calendar for those things. But

783
00:34:43,986 --> 00:34:45,826
Speaker 3: as we were talking about before, you also can just

784
00:34:46,066 --> 00:34:49,006
Speaker 3: find these little moments, these little interstitial moments where you

785
00:34:49,046 --> 00:34:51,906
Speaker 3: can do something that's a little bit playful. An example

786
00:34:51,946 --> 00:34:53,726
Speaker 3: in my own house, we have something called a 30

787
00:34:53,726 --> 00:34:56,506
Speaker 3: second dance party timer that my husband got me as

788
00:34:56,526 --> 00:34:58,996
Speaker 3: a gag gift. It has a German accent and it

789
00:34:59,026 --> 00:35:02,096
Speaker 3: says 30 second dance party. And then it gives you 30. Anyway,

790
00:35:02,116 --> 00:35:04,856
Speaker 3: something like that, literally 30 seconds that elevates the mood.

791
00:35:04,876 --> 00:35:07,146
Speaker 3: And if we're in kind of like a let's say

792
00:35:07,166 --> 00:35:10,156
Speaker 3: a fight with our 11-year-old daughter, it also breaks the tension.

793
00:35:10,196 --> 00:35:12,076
Speaker 3: So you can just do little things throughout the day

794
00:35:12,156 --> 00:35:14,196
Speaker 3: to add a bit of levity and add a bit

795
00:35:14,216 --> 00:35:16,336
Speaker 3: of connection that really can make a difference, even if

796
00:35:16,396 --> 00:35:18,096
Speaker 3: it's not a whole two-hour pad thai block.

797
00:35:18,636 --> 00:35:21,796
Speaker 1: My 30-second dance party, stolen from Catherine again, because these are,

798
00:35:21,876 --> 00:35:24,066
Speaker 1: of course, my gurus for happiness and fun, was that

799
00:35:24,086 --> 00:35:25,446
Speaker 1: when she told me about this, I was like, I

800
00:35:25,466 --> 00:35:28,106
Speaker 1: don't really have this German 30-second dance party thing. But

801
00:35:28,486 --> 00:35:30,466
Speaker 1: at the time, I had an old PlayStation that was

802
00:35:30,486 --> 00:35:33,266
Speaker 1: still hooked up, and we had Guitar Hero. And I

803
00:35:33,286 --> 00:35:35,006
Speaker 1: realized that the songs I like to play most on

804
00:35:35,026 --> 00:35:37,426
Speaker 1: Guitar Hero are at most like... two minutes for like

805
00:35:37,446 --> 00:35:39,666
Speaker 1: that Molly crew song or whatever. And so in between

806
00:35:39,766 --> 00:35:42,046
Speaker 1: zoom meetings, I would like, when I'm working from home,

807
00:35:42,326 --> 00:35:44,956
Speaker 1: leave five minutes at the end to run to my room,

808
00:35:45,356 --> 00:35:46,996
Speaker 1: put on the Molly crew, play the Molly crew, and

809
00:35:47,006 --> 00:35:49,296
Speaker 1: then just go to the next zoom meeting. And what's

810
00:35:49,336 --> 00:35:50,736
Speaker 1: crazy is like, what else would I have done with

811
00:35:50,756 --> 00:35:53,156
Speaker 1: those five minutes? I would have checked off some stupid email.

812
00:35:53,396 --> 00:35:56,156
Speaker 1: I would have scrolled through something stupid on Facebook or Instagram.

813
00:35:56,176 --> 00:35:57,896
Speaker 1: Like now I come back energized.

814
00:35:57,936 --> 00:35:58,656
Speaker 3: I come to that meeting.

815
00:35:58,716 --> 00:36:02,216
Speaker 1: I'm like, kickstart my heart people. Let's talk about the spreadsheet,

816
00:36:02,276 --> 00:36:07,476
Speaker 1: you know? Anyway, in our last two minutes, in our

817
00:36:07,536 --> 00:36:10,456
Speaker 1: last two minutes before we turn away, another thing that

818
00:36:10,496 --> 00:36:14,556
Speaker 1: everybody's talking about is loneliness and connection. And both of

819
00:36:14,776 --> 00:36:18,186
Speaker 1: your ingredients to happiness included connection, which we're getting less

820
00:36:18,226 --> 00:36:21,266
Speaker 1: and less of these days. Quick, fast tip on your

821
00:36:21,326 --> 00:36:23,466
Speaker 1: best advice for how can we increase connection?

822
00:36:23,746 --> 00:36:24,566
Speaker 5: Catherine, want to start?

823
00:36:24,946 --> 00:36:26,786
Speaker 3: Put down your phones and talk to someone. And then

824
00:36:26,806 --> 00:36:28,946
Speaker 3: I'd also say one of my favorite techniques is to

825
00:36:29,026 --> 00:36:31,626
Speaker 3: notice and share delights, which is a practice I got

826
00:36:31,646 --> 00:36:33,376
Speaker 3: from the poet Ross Gay, who wrote a whole book

827
00:36:33,396 --> 00:36:35,656
Speaker 3: called The Book of Delights. The basic idea is just

828
00:36:35,876 --> 00:36:37,756
Speaker 3: make a point of noticing things in your environment or

829
00:36:37,796 --> 00:36:40,576
Speaker 3: your interactions that delight you. And when you notice those things,

830
00:36:40,596 --> 00:36:41,876
Speaker 3: you put a finger up in the air and you

831
00:36:41,916 --> 00:36:44,906
Speaker 3: say out loud, delight. And so I'd like to invite

832
00:36:44,926 --> 00:36:46,426
Speaker 3: you to do that with me on three. You'll feel

833
00:36:46,466 --> 00:36:49,046
Speaker 3: silly the first time, but there's actually scientific evidence showing

834
00:36:49,066 --> 00:36:52,466
Speaker 3: that noticing and naming positive things saying it out loud,

835
00:36:52,706 --> 00:36:55,016
Speaker 3: accompanying it with a physical gesture, and then sharing it

836
00:36:55,036 --> 00:36:56,516
Speaker 3: with other people is a way to boost your mood.

837
00:36:56,556 --> 00:36:57,436
Speaker 3: So count of three.

838
00:36:57,556 --> 00:36:57,736
Speaker 1: Ready?

839
00:36:58,236 --> 00:36:59,376
Speaker 3: One, two, three.

840
00:36:59,916 --> 00:37:00,496
Speaker 5: Delight.

841
00:37:00,996 --> 00:37:03,616
Speaker 3: Thank you. And you can do that for yourself alone.

842
00:37:03,696 --> 00:37:05,086
Speaker 3: You can share it with other people. We have a

843
00:37:05,106 --> 00:37:07,546
Speaker 3: jar of delights on our kitchen table we drop delights into.

844
00:37:07,926 --> 00:37:09,286
Speaker 3: And if you're like, I don't know about this delight thing,

845
00:37:09,366 --> 00:37:11,486
Speaker 3: another quick tip I would have is create delight for

846
00:37:11,526 --> 00:37:13,626
Speaker 3: other people. Like, for example, I went through a phase,

847
00:37:13,666 --> 00:37:15,966
Speaker 3: speaking of little things you can give people, to just

848
00:37:16,046 --> 00:37:18,906
Speaker 3: create delight for others by, in my case, buying a

849
00:37:19,086 --> 00:37:22,506
Speaker 3: number of $ 9. 99 portable disco balls off of Amazon and

850
00:37:22,526 --> 00:37:23,966
Speaker 3: sending them to friends with no explanation.

851
00:37:23,986 --> 00:37:29,106
Speaker 1: It's good to get on her mailing list. Liz, 30 second,

852
00:37:29,226 --> 00:37:31,546
Speaker 1: how can we increase connection? All right.

853
00:37:31,566 --> 00:37:33,986
Speaker 5: So I've needed two. One is like planned fun.

854
00:37:34,106 --> 00:37:37,106
Speaker 4: So I calendar my fun, which, you know, maybe doesn't

855
00:37:37,146 --> 00:37:39,766
Speaker 4: reflect well on me, but actually it works so well

856
00:37:40,006 --> 00:37:43,306
Speaker 4: because for example, I have a friend who is like

857
00:37:43,346 --> 00:37:44,586
Speaker 4: the busiest person I know.

858
00:37:44,606 --> 00:37:46,126
Speaker 5: And so I wasn't seeing her.

859
00:37:46,206 --> 00:37:48,686
Speaker 4: And so we committed to doing this fitness class together

860
00:37:48,746 --> 00:37:51,106
Speaker 4: every week. And I literally just booked a flight around

861
00:37:51,166 --> 00:37:54,256
Speaker 4: not missing that class. And so we make sure we

862
00:37:54,316 --> 00:37:55,956
Speaker 4: see each other. And she's one of my favorite people

863
00:37:55,976 --> 00:37:57,796
Speaker 4: in the world. And we get that hour together every week.

864
00:37:58,276 --> 00:38:01,796
Speaker 4: The other bit is more serendipitous, and that is similar

865
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Speaker 4: to what Catherine was saying, but talking to strangers. So

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Speaker 4: my research has shown that when people have even a

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Speaker 4: brief chat with someone they don't know, it actually lifts

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Speaker 4: both people's moods. And so I would invite all of

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Speaker 4: you as we're leaving here today to maybe just talk

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Speaker 4: to somebody else that you haven't met before.

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Speaker 1: Say hello.

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Speaker 4: And what's really interesting about this is we actually underestimate

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Speaker 4: other people's interest in talking to us. So practice it

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Speaker 4: here and then take it home with you to your

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Speaker 4: own community.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much to the Aspen Ideas Festival for

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Speaker 2: making this conversation possible. It was, at least for me,

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Speaker 2: super fun. For more practical tips on how to bring

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Speaker 2: fun into your busy life, check out Catherine's book, Power

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00:38:44,856 --> 00:38:48,396
Speaker 2: of Fun, and her amazing substack called How to Feel Alive.

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Speaker 2: And if you're curious about how pursuing joy might actually

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Speaker 2: help us tackle some of the world's biggest challenges, I

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Speaker 2: recommend Liz's new book, Leave the Lights On, How Joyful

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Speaker 2: Decisions Can Save Our Species. Next week, we'll be continuing

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Speaker 2: our series of live conversations from the past year. This time,

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Speaker 2: I'll be speaking to Duke professor Kate Bowler about how meaning, humor,

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Speaker 2: and connection can help us deal with life's most difficult moments.

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Speaker 1: What's lovely about and very annoying about happiness is that

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Speaker 1: it is a surprise. It will sneak up on you.

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Speaker 3: And it is because you are built.

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Speaker 5: With this unbelievable capacity for it.

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Speaker 3: Like we are actually made for joy.

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Speaker 2: That's all next week on The Happiness Lab with me, Dr.

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Speaker 1: Laurie Santos.