WEBVTT - Making Museums Relevant and Reflective is Solvable 0:00:15.076 --> 0:00:25.676 Pushkin, This is solvable. I'm Ronald Young Jr. The first 0:00:25.676 --> 0:00:28.556 introduction to a museum for me was the Brooklyn Museum. 0:00:28.956 --> 0:00:32.236 The Brooklyn Museum, like many well known museums across the 0:00:32.396 --> 0:00:35.756 United States, is a sight to behold. A modern glass 0:00:35.756 --> 0:00:39.716 shell pulls light towards the front entrance, drawing visitors inside 0:00:40.676 --> 0:00:43.116 enter any of the galleries, and ornate objects seemed to 0:00:43.116 --> 0:00:48.436 glow with every color sparkling curiosity and exploration. Being in 0:00:48.436 --> 0:00:51.716 a museum can feel like stepping into a totally new world, 0:00:52.596 --> 0:00:55.436 But the museum is not separate from the world that 0:00:55.436 --> 0:00:59.076 we live in. Race matters. If museums are the keepers 0:00:59.116 --> 0:01:02.276 of cultural stories, whose stories and how those stories are 0:01:02.316 --> 0:01:07.836 told matter, but the decision makers well. In twenty eighteen, 0:01:08.276 --> 0:01:10.676 forty six percent then of all the boards in American 0:01:10.756 --> 0:01:15.956 museums were one hundred percent white, and curatorial departments were 0:01:15.996 --> 0:01:19.076 over eighty percent white. So how do we get those 0:01:19.156 --> 0:01:23.276 chairs filled by more representative crowd. We decided to bring 0:01:23.356 --> 0:01:28.316 these conversations within the museum themselves, conversations around what Egypt 0:01:28.396 --> 0:01:30.996 looked like and having black people around it. We had 0:01:31.036 --> 0:01:35.636 conversations around anti blackness in Egyptology, real conversations like that 0:01:35.796 --> 0:01:40.876 within the institution we thought was really important. Stephanie Cunningham 0:01:40.996 --> 0:01:44.756 is the director of Museum Hugh, an organization working to 0:01:44.876 --> 0:01:48.396 challenge the status quo and make museums more welcoming and 0:01:48.476 --> 0:01:54.236 representative of everyone. Museums being more relevant and reflective of 0:01:54.236 --> 0:02:04.276 our society and community is a solvable problem. Tell me 0:02:04.316 --> 0:02:07.396 about the first time that you went to museum and 0:02:07.476 --> 0:02:10.596 what was that like for you. Yeah, So for me, 0:02:10.796 --> 0:02:13.516 I grew up in Brooklyn, New York, born and raised, 0:02:14.036 --> 0:02:18.036 and the first introduction to a museum for me was 0:02:18.076 --> 0:02:21.836 the Brooklyn Museum. And you know, my family is from 0:02:21.916 --> 0:02:26.476 the Caribbean, Jamaica and Trinidad, and we would go, my 0:02:26.556 --> 0:02:30.156 family and I to the Brooklyn Museum to see exhibitions 0:02:30.516 --> 0:02:34.396 and really enjoyed that. And then I ended up going 0:02:34.716 --> 0:02:38.156 to nurse in high school and I hated it, but 0:02:38.396 --> 0:02:41.076 the Brooklyn Museum, right across the street from me, really 0:02:41.116 --> 0:02:45.316 intrigued me. So the Brooklyn Museum, fifteen minutes twenty minutes 0:02:45.436 --> 0:02:49.436 from my house was my first introduction to the museum field. 0:02:50.116 --> 0:02:53.836 And what would you say drove your interest beyond going 0:02:53.876 --> 0:02:56.596 to the museum, what drove your interest in working in 0:02:56.596 --> 0:02:59.996 that field. So for me, it was like, it would 0:03:00.036 --> 0:03:02.316 be so cool if I had the opportunity to be 0:03:02.396 --> 0:03:07.436 around our all day one, invite people to enjoy this 0:03:07.676 --> 0:03:11.876 art with me too, you know escape. You know, like 0:03:12.036 --> 0:03:16.436 corporate America, I had already you know, learned that people 0:03:16.476 --> 0:03:18.636 had to address a certain way, look a certain way 0:03:18.676 --> 0:03:20.876 in corporate America, and the arts was this place where 0:03:20.876 --> 0:03:24.396 you could be free from all of that and you know, experiment. 0:03:24.796 --> 0:03:28.036 There's so many different learning styles. There's people who are 0:03:28.116 --> 0:03:34.316 visual learners, auditory learners, you know, kinesthetic learners, and and 0:03:34.636 --> 0:03:38.836 that's what arts and culture provide people with the opportunity 0:03:38.916 --> 0:03:43.156 to do to get you know, different ways to learn 0:03:43.436 --> 0:03:49.236 and to tap into the best way that you learn. Agreed. Yeah, 0:03:49.316 --> 0:03:53.436 So what's the problem with museums these days? Because I 0:03:53.436 --> 0:03:55.556 don't think you'd be in your line of work if 0:03:55.556 --> 0:03:57.996 you didn't see an issue there. And one thing this 0:03:58.076 --> 0:03:59.756 struck me that you said is you said you wanted 0:03:59.756 --> 0:04:01.916 to be an artist, and you know, you wanted to 0:04:01.956 --> 0:04:04.396 be creative and free and do your thing, and you 0:04:04.396 --> 0:04:05.996 want to get away from the corporate world. And I'm 0:04:06.036 --> 0:04:07.916 someone who used to work in the corporate world. I've 0:04:07.916 --> 0:04:11.556 pivoted away. And what I've discovered is that there's always 0:04:11.676 --> 0:04:14.916 a layer of corporateness. No matter where we go, there's 0:04:14.916 --> 0:04:18.636 always a layer of corporate So what exactly was the 0:04:18.716 --> 0:04:23.236 problem with museums for you? Honestly, I went into the 0:04:23.276 --> 0:04:27.036 field to be free or what I had imagined or 0:04:27.076 --> 0:04:30.916 what the museum feel projects. However, when I got into 0:04:30.996 --> 0:04:32.796 the field, I saw that there was a lot of 0:04:32.996 --> 0:04:36.796 racial inequality. The museum is not separate from the world 0:04:36.796 --> 0:04:40.636 that we live in. Race matters. The Brooklyn Museum, for example, 0:04:40.716 --> 0:04:44.756 is in the middle of Crown Heights, a very black neighborhood, 0:04:44.996 --> 0:04:49.276 large Jewish community as well. However, a large portion of 0:04:49.396 --> 0:04:54.236 leadership were white and from somewhere else. When I became 0:04:54.276 --> 0:04:56.556 an intern, I was the only person going to like 0:04:56.636 --> 0:04:59.636 the local college. I was doing my undergrad at Brooklyn College. 0:04:59.676 --> 0:05:02.796 Everyone else was at an ivy or private school. I 0:05:02.876 --> 0:05:05.276 was the only black or person of color in the 0:05:05.916 --> 0:05:10.796 curatorial department internship. Way that I got my internship was 0:05:10.836 --> 0:05:13.956 I kept applying and I would either get nose or 0:05:13.996 --> 0:05:16.876 wouldn't hear anything back. And then I walked into the 0:05:16.956 --> 0:05:19.596 museum and you know, spoke to someone at Visitors Services 0:05:19.636 --> 0:05:22.516 and was like, look, I've been come to this museum 0:05:22.556 --> 0:05:27.196 long time. You know, I'm studying our history at Brooklyn College. 0:05:27.316 --> 0:05:31.076 Like I need an opportunity. And thankfully someone from the 0:05:31.236 --> 0:05:34.396 education department was earshot and actually gave me a chance. 0:05:35.116 --> 0:05:38.276 But the change that I wanted to create looked like 0:05:38.556 --> 0:05:42.236 having the opportunity for more, you know, black and brown 0:05:42.436 --> 0:05:46.596 people being within the field within these predominantly white institutions 0:05:46.636 --> 0:05:51.636 in New York. Even the educational system pushes institutions like 0:05:51.716 --> 0:05:55.276 the Brooklyn Museum, like the met like the Googenheim, like 0:05:55.396 --> 0:06:00.436 the Whitney as premier cultural authorities in New York City. However, 0:06:00.476 --> 0:06:04.276 I had to learn from myself about Studio Museum in Harlem, 0:06:04.396 --> 0:06:08.436 el Museum Delbardio, a Museum of Chinese in America. All 0:06:08.436 --> 0:06:11.756 of these tuitions that are located in communities that I'm 0:06:11.836 --> 0:06:15.876 doing really amazing work wasn't getting the visibility and the 0:06:15.916 --> 0:06:26.156 funding that they so deserved. Last year, after George Floyd died, 0:06:26.196 --> 0:06:29.916 we saw a lot of racial reckonings happened across multiple fields. 0:06:29.916 --> 0:06:32.316 We saw it happened in Hollywood, We saw it happened 0:06:32.356 --> 0:06:35.636 in the food industry. Surprisingly, we saw it happened in 0:06:35.836 --> 0:06:40.516 very many unexpected places. Did any fallout happen with these 0:06:40.636 --> 0:06:43.836 racial recogonings in the museum industry? You know, there was 0:06:43.836 --> 0:06:47.476 a call for a greater racial equity racial justice within 0:06:47.516 --> 0:06:50.636 the museum field as well. There was a whole survey 0:06:50.716 --> 0:06:55.756 done by Museum Next, which is an international organization, asking 0:06:55.756 --> 0:07:00.036 people do they feel like museums are relevant? And a 0:07:00.076 --> 0:07:03.476 lot of people said they thought museums was important, but 0:07:03.556 --> 0:07:07.556 not necessarily relevant because they didn't feel like museums were 0:07:07.556 --> 0:07:12.476 talking about issue within our society and wasn't standing up 0:07:12.596 --> 0:07:16.516 for anything. And so that's incredibly important to know that 0:07:17.036 --> 0:07:22.836 our society wants to see museums become more involved. There 0:07:22.876 --> 0:07:26.276 were a lot of people asking for changes made within 0:07:26.316 --> 0:07:30.676 the leadership and within policies of museums as well. And 0:07:30.756 --> 0:07:33.156 so what I did was I created the very first 0:07:33.236 --> 0:07:38.276 map and directory of museums created by black, Indigenous and 0:07:38.316 --> 0:07:41.316 other people of color. The map now has over one 0:07:41.436 --> 0:07:45.236 hundred and fifty museums throughout the country. The list is 0:07:45.276 --> 0:07:49.596 still growing, but it shows these community museums, or also 0:07:49.676 --> 0:07:54.596 known as culturally specific museums, their pedagogy is one that 0:07:54.676 --> 0:08:01.836 puts community before collections. These community museums or doing incredible 0:08:01.876 --> 0:08:05.356 work across the country. My work right now looks like 0:08:06.116 --> 0:08:10.236 supporting those institutions and in the same time challenging the 0:08:10.396 --> 0:08:16.356 racial infrastructure of those larger museums that we know by name. 0:08:17.996 --> 0:08:20.956 You stated clearly the problem, and you stated clearly what's 0:08:20.956 --> 0:08:23.796 going on a lot of inequity within the museum field. 0:08:24.316 --> 0:08:26.596 Talk to me about how you went from identifying that 0:08:26.716 --> 0:08:30.276 problem to starting your company, Museum hu and then how 0:08:30.396 --> 0:08:33.756 Museum Hugh worked with museums in order to create more 0:08:33.836 --> 0:08:36.836 equity within the field. So it really started out as 0:08:36.876 --> 0:08:40.556 like a collective to think about what we were going through, 0:08:40.636 --> 0:08:42.636 how we can speak up, how we can speak out, 0:08:42.636 --> 0:08:45.556 and things like that. And then we decided to bring 0:08:45.636 --> 0:08:49.156 these conversations within the museum themselves. And the first one 0:08:49.276 --> 0:08:51.796 was actually at the met and it was like thirty 0:08:52.276 --> 0:08:55.836 of us and we had conversations around the anti blackness 0:08:55.876 --> 0:09:01.076 in Egyptology, the lack of conversations around what Egypt looked 0:09:01.076 --> 0:09:03.956 like and having black people around it. We had conversations 0:09:03.996 --> 0:09:09.956 around the Metropolitan Museum has artifacts from all across the world, right, 0:09:09.956 --> 0:09:13.276 and ninety percent of the staff and the curators are 0:09:13.276 --> 0:09:16.596 still white, right, So it's not even cultural representation there 0:09:16.636 --> 0:09:21.956 within the cultural collections. So having real conversations like that 0:09:22.076 --> 0:09:27.556 within the institution we thought was really important. Museum started 0:09:27.596 --> 0:09:31.156 looking at Museum Hugh as a way to get more 0:09:31.196 --> 0:09:35.956 diverse people of color within their institutions who have the 0:09:36.076 --> 0:09:40.476 skills and expertise and knowledge. We hosted zoom conversations with 0:09:40.676 --> 0:09:44.356 hundreds of folks throughout the country around what they were 0:09:44.396 --> 0:09:48.236 dealing with at work in the museum, and so all 0:09:48.236 --> 0:09:51.316 of those things are really incredibly important to museum who 0:09:51.436 --> 0:09:55.276 as we continue to move forward, and I'll mention this 0:09:55.396 --> 0:09:58.276 last thing here in New York City, with the support 0:09:58.316 --> 0:10:01.756 from the New York City Department of Cultural Affairs, I'm 0:10:01.796 --> 0:10:06.596 creating what's what we're calling Hugh Arts NYC, where it's 0:10:06.636 --> 0:10:13.236 looking specifically at of color created and led arts organizations 0:10:13.316 --> 0:10:17.356 to amplify their work and provide additional support and also 0:10:18.876 --> 0:10:24.196 write a comprehensive report about their experience in creating and 0:10:24.316 --> 0:10:30.396 leading these arts organizations. Listening to you, it sounds like 0:10:30.556 --> 0:10:32.756 you know the work that you're doing to create space 0:10:33.636 --> 0:10:36.676 for black and brown folks, especially to be included within 0:10:36.916 --> 0:10:39.396 the field itself and to be included in the conversations 0:10:39.436 --> 0:10:42.636 of the field. It does sound a lot like DEI work, 0:10:43.156 --> 0:10:45.356 and I can understand the separation that you have because 0:10:45.396 --> 0:10:48.676 you're not actually teaching them how to be You're just 0:10:48.716 --> 0:10:51.236 talking about bringing folks to the table, as opposed to 0:10:51.556 --> 0:10:55.076 confunting internalized biased or going down a very technical path. 0:10:55.156 --> 0:10:57.996 You're just saying, Hey, there's black and brown folks here, 0:10:58.076 --> 0:11:01.716 let's bring them to the table. Sure. And also within 0:11:01.916 --> 0:11:06.396 the words diversity, equity, and inclusion encompasses so many different things. 0:11:06.516 --> 0:11:12.676 It almost always talks about, you know, gender, race, sexuality, 0:11:12.676 --> 0:11:14.596 and all of those things are important, but all of 0:11:14.596 --> 0:11:18.116 those things are large enough to have a space for themselves, 0:11:18.196 --> 0:11:23.476 and for me, it's about explicitly talking about race working 0:11:23.476 --> 0:11:27.276 within the structure of the museum system. What would you 0:11:27.316 --> 0:11:30.956 say to folks that say that, because the structure is 0:11:30.996 --> 0:11:35.156 inherently racist, and it's an inherently like a product of 0:11:35.196 --> 0:11:38.596 a structurally racist society, that it's impossible to see the 0:11:38.636 --> 0:11:41.436 types of changes that you want there. How do you 0:11:41.476 --> 0:11:45.036 respond to that type of criticism? Yeah, I think that 0:11:45.436 --> 0:11:48.436 what we know a lot of industries in the US, 0:11:48.476 --> 0:11:54.676 you know, comes from the support of colonialism, racism from 0:11:54.676 --> 0:11:58.676 our museums to our banks, and on and on and on. However, 0:11:58.876 --> 0:12:03.116 there is a way I believe that museums can be 0:12:03.876 --> 0:12:10.396 spaces where it creates equity and creates conversation around change, 0:12:10.436 --> 0:12:14.836 and not just conversations but implements change. So, for examples, 0:12:15.516 --> 0:12:21.636 the Native American Museum in California, which is you know, 0:12:21.876 --> 0:12:27.356 native run owned institution. During the pandemic, they change their 0:12:27.556 --> 0:12:32.476 entire focus, not just you know, looking at indigenous arts 0:12:32.476 --> 0:12:37.676 and culture, preserving that through their own again pedagogy, narratives, 0:12:37.676 --> 0:12:44.516 and perspectives, but they then began feeding the elders ancestral 0:12:44.596 --> 0:12:48.596 foods and such for their survival throughout the pandemic because 0:12:48.636 --> 0:12:53.036 they realize that people needed to literally be fed. Right, 0:12:53.076 --> 0:12:59.436 And so these cultural institutions, culturally specific institutions, these community museums, 0:12:59.716 --> 0:13:03.276 are really looking at the health and well being of 0:13:03.316 --> 0:13:08.556 their community. For the larger museum field. That is that's crazy, right, 0:13:09.316 --> 0:13:12.916 we can't be definitely, we have to exactly so that 0:13:12.996 --> 0:13:17.196 kind of work is incredibly important. New York Historical Society, 0:13:17.236 --> 0:13:20.516 for example, which is not a culturally specific museum, in 0:13:20.636 --> 0:13:26.396 response to the former president's charge against you lack of 0:13:26.396 --> 0:13:30.796 support for immigrants, they created what's known as the Citizenship Project, 0:13:30.836 --> 0:13:34.756 where they help New Yorkers working on becoming a citizens. 0:13:34.756 --> 0:13:40.356 They provided the opportunity to teach them citizenship tests right 0:13:40.476 --> 0:13:43.876 through their collection. They taught people, and then what they 0:13:43.956 --> 0:13:47.916 also did was provided a space for them. They did 0:13:47.956 --> 0:13:52.996 so in a real way that creates real impact. And 0:13:53.076 --> 0:13:55.196 the reason why they're able to do that is because 0:13:55.196 --> 0:13:58.476 they don't separate themselves from the communities that they represent. 0:13:59.236 --> 0:14:02.036 So let me ask you, how do you know that 0:14:02.076 --> 0:14:04.676 what you're doing is working. It feels like it's hard 0:14:04.676 --> 0:14:07.916 to really see a metric here. What types of responses 0:14:07.916 --> 0:14:11.116 are you seeing from museums. We've helped hundreds of people 0:14:11.636 --> 0:14:15.636 gain jobs within the museum field, and I would also 0:14:15.716 --> 0:14:20.516 say the fact that Museum Who continuously is invited to 0:14:21.196 --> 0:14:25.636 many tables, whether it be conferences or keynotes and such, 0:14:25.676 --> 0:14:29.636 to talk about the real change that museums need to make, 0:14:30.356 --> 0:14:34.316 shows that you know, we are a reputable source within 0:14:34.356 --> 0:14:37.836 the field, and also that the field is paying attention 0:14:38.036 --> 0:14:43.596 to the large movement and community that Museum Who has created. 0:14:44.476 --> 0:14:47.356 I think that Museum Who has given voice to a 0:14:47.396 --> 0:14:50.476 lot of people who felt like they were voiceless and 0:14:50.556 --> 0:14:54.716 have encouraged people to use their voice in challenging the 0:14:54.836 --> 0:15:13.796 museum to change and to become more equitable. You talked 0:15:13.796 --> 0:15:16.436 a lot about local museums, especially local museums that are 0:15:16.516 --> 0:15:20.956 part of marginalized communities. How can listeners get involved at 0:15:21.036 --> 0:15:24.076 that level? There is there a place they need to go? 0:15:24.316 --> 0:15:26.356 Is there do they need to do to go in there? 0:15:26.476 --> 0:15:29.716 Speak to the managers, speak to visitors services. Where do 0:15:29.756 --> 0:15:33.876 they begin with engaging with those local museums. I think 0:15:33.876 --> 0:15:38.676 the first step is becoming knowledgeable of what steps have 0:15:38.716 --> 0:15:41.996 been taken and what is recommended for folks to take. 0:15:42.596 --> 0:15:46.476 And for me, how I did that myself was reading 0:15:46.836 --> 0:15:50.196 Mountain Frustrations, Art Museums in the Age of Black Power, 0:15:50.716 --> 0:15:53.636 even How to be an Anti Racist, all of those 0:15:53.676 --> 0:15:57.436 things shout out form. Yeah, you know, even even that 0:15:57.476 --> 0:16:00.556 book has helped me even in my work with museum here, 0:16:01.076 --> 0:16:05.476 and so it's incredibly important for people not to guess 0:16:05.516 --> 0:16:08.076 what's needed to be done, you know, on top of 0:16:08.476 --> 0:16:13.436 doing doing those incredibly important readings, you know, following folks 0:16:13.436 --> 0:16:15.676 who are doing the work. Of course, museum h and 0:16:15.796 --> 0:16:19.996 others day's museums are not neutral. There's also museum detox. 0:16:20.796 --> 0:16:25.436 There is a plethora of articles that are constantly being 0:16:25.476 --> 0:16:31.756 written about how to recognize, you know, some challenges or 0:16:31.796 --> 0:16:36.196 issues within your museums that needs to be addressed. That 0:16:36.356 --> 0:16:40.076 is the first step. Thank you so much for being 0:16:40.076 --> 0:16:45.516 with us, Stephanie. Thank you. Stephanie Cunningham is the director 0:16:45.556 --> 0:16:48.236 of Museum Hue, which supports people of color within the 0:16:48.356 --> 0:16:51.916 museum field and works to situate and promote culturally informed 0:16:51.996 --> 0:16:56.276 museum exhibitions and experiences across the nation. We'll have links 0:16:56.276 --> 0:16:58.996 to Stephanie's suggestions for ways you can learn more in 0:16:59.076 --> 0:17:02.276 our show notes. Next week, I'm talking with TV writer 0:17:02.436 --> 0:17:04.636 Mike guy Out about how to get creative, young black 0:17:04.636 --> 0:17:08.116 writers into the writer's rooms of Hollywood. Mike was a 0:17:08.116 --> 0:17:10.876 lot of fun, thanks for Insecure, which is my favorite 0:17:10.876 --> 0:17:14.596 show right now. He's humbly passionate and he's really, really, 0:17:14.596 --> 0:17:17.676 really dedicated to building a pathway for the next generation. 0:17:18.036 --> 0:17:20.236 I laugh a lot in this episode, so get ready 0:17:20.276 --> 0:17:22.276 for that. I hope you'll join us for that conversation. 0:17:23.196 --> 0:17:26.756 Solvable is produced by Joscelyn Frank, researched by David John, 0:17:27.316 --> 0:17:31.036 booking by Lisa Dunn. Our managing producer is Sasha Matthias, 0:17:31.236 --> 0:17:35.316 and our executive producer is Mia Lobell. I'm Ronald Young Junior. 0:17:35.996 --> 0:17:36.796 Thanks for listening.