Speaker 1: Pushkin, This is solvable. I'm Ronald Young Jr. The first
Speaker 1: introduction to a museum for me was the Brooklyn Museum.
Speaker 1: The Brooklyn Museum, like many well known museums across the
Speaker 1: United States, is a sight to behold. A modern glass
Speaker 1: shell pulls light towards the front entrance, drawing visitors inside
Speaker 1: enter any of the galleries, and ornate objects seemed to
Speaker 1: glow with every color sparkling curiosity and exploration. Being in
Speaker 1: a museum can feel like stepping into a totally new world,
Speaker 1: But the museum is not separate from the world that
Speaker 1: we live in. Race matters. If museums are the keepers
Speaker 1: of cultural stories, whose stories and how those stories are
Speaker 1: told matter, but the decision makers well. In twenty eighteen,
Speaker 1: forty six percent then of all the boards in American
Speaker 1: museums were one hundred percent white, and curatorial departments were
Speaker 1: over eighty percent white. So how do we get those
Speaker 1: chairs filled by more representative crowd. We decided to bring
Speaker 1: these conversations within the museum themselves, conversations around what Egypt
Speaker 1: looked like and having black people around it. We had
Speaker 1: conversations around anti blackness in Egyptology, real conversations like that
Speaker 1: within the institution we thought was really important. Stephanie Cunningham
Speaker 1: is the director of Museum Hugh, an organization working to
Speaker 1: challenge the status quo and make museums more welcoming and
Speaker 1: representative of everyone. Museums being more relevant and reflective of
Speaker 1: our society and community is a solvable problem. Tell me
Speaker 1: about the first time that you went to museum and
Speaker 1: what was that like for you. Yeah, So for me,
Speaker 1: I grew up in Brooklyn, New York, born and raised,
Speaker 1: and the first introduction to a museum for me was
Speaker 1: the Brooklyn Museum. And you know, my family is from
Speaker 1: the Caribbean, Jamaica and Trinidad, and we would go, my
Speaker 1: family and I to the Brooklyn Museum to see exhibitions
Speaker 1: and really enjoyed that. And then I ended up going
Speaker 1: to nurse in high school and I hated it, but
Speaker 1: the Brooklyn Museum, right across the street from me, really
Speaker 1: intrigued me. So the Brooklyn Museum, fifteen minutes twenty minutes
Speaker 1: from my house was my first introduction to the museum field.
Speaker 1: And what would you say drove your interest beyond going
Speaker 1: to the museum, what drove your interest in working in
Speaker 1: that field. So for me, it was like, it would
Speaker 1: be so cool if I had the opportunity to be
Speaker 1: around our all day one, invite people to enjoy this
Speaker 1: art with me too, you know escape. You know, like
Speaker 1: corporate America, I had already you know, learned that people
Speaker 1: had to address a certain way, look a certain way
Speaker 1: in corporate America, and the arts was this place where
Speaker 1: you could be free from all of that and you know, experiment.
Speaker 1: There's so many different learning styles. There's people who are
Speaker 1: visual learners, auditory learners, you know, kinesthetic learners, and and
Speaker 1: that's what arts and culture provide people with the opportunity
Speaker 1: to do to get you know, different ways to learn
Speaker 1: and to tap into the best way that you learn. Agreed. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So what's the problem with museums these days? Because I
Speaker 1: don't think you'd be in your line of work if
Speaker 1: you didn't see an issue there. And one thing this
Speaker 1: struck me that you said is you said you wanted
Speaker 1: to be an artist, and you know, you wanted to
Speaker 1: be creative and free and do your thing, and you
Speaker 1: want to get away from the corporate world. And I'm
Speaker 1: someone who used to work in the corporate world. I've
Speaker 1: pivoted away. And what I've discovered is that there's always
Speaker 1: a layer of corporateness. No matter where we go, there's
Speaker 1: always a layer of corporate So what exactly was the
Speaker 1: problem with museums for you? Honestly, I went into the
Speaker 1: field to be free or what I had imagined or
Speaker 1: what the museum feel projects. However, when I got into
Speaker 1: the field, I saw that there was a lot of
Speaker 1: racial inequality. The museum is not separate from the world
Speaker 1: that we live in. Race matters. The Brooklyn Museum, for example,
Speaker 1: is in the middle of Crown Heights, a very black neighborhood,
Speaker 1: large Jewish community as well. However, a large portion of
Speaker 1: leadership were white and from somewhere else. When I became
Speaker 1: an intern, I was the only person going to like
Speaker 1: the local college. I was doing my undergrad at Brooklyn College.
Speaker 1: Everyone else was at an ivy or private school. I
Speaker 1: was the only black or person of color in the
Speaker 1: curatorial department internship. Way that I got my internship was
Speaker 1: I kept applying and I would either get nose or
Speaker 1: wouldn't hear anything back. And then I walked into the
Speaker 1: museum and you know, spoke to someone at Visitors Services
Speaker 1: and was like, look, I've been come to this museum
Speaker 1: long time. You know, I'm studying our history at Brooklyn College.
Speaker 1: Like I need an opportunity. And thankfully someone from the
Speaker 1: education department was earshot and actually gave me a chance.
Speaker 1: But the change that I wanted to create looked like
Speaker 1: having the opportunity for more, you know, black and brown
Speaker 1: people being within the field within these predominantly white institutions
Speaker 1: in New York. Even the educational system pushes institutions like
Speaker 1: the Brooklyn Museum, like the met like the Googenheim, like
Speaker 1: the Whitney as premier cultural authorities in New York City. However,
Speaker 1: I had to learn from myself about Studio Museum in Harlem,
Speaker 1: el Museum Delbardio, a Museum of Chinese in America. All
Speaker 1: of these tuitions that are located in communities that I'm
Speaker 1: doing really amazing work wasn't getting the visibility and the
Speaker 1: funding that they so deserved. Last year, after George Floyd died,
Speaker 1: we saw a lot of racial reckonings happened across multiple fields.
Speaker 1: We saw it happened in Hollywood, We saw it happened
Speaker 1: in the food industry. Surprisingly, we saw it happened in
Speaker 1: very many unexpected places. Did any fallout happen with these
Speaker 1: racial recogonings in the museum industry? You know, there was
Speaker 1: a call for a greater racial equity racial justice within
Speaker 1: the museum field as well. There was a whole survey
Speaker 1: done by Museum Next, which is an international organization, asking
Speaker 1: people do they feel like museums are relevant? And a
Speaker 1: lot of people said they thought museums was important, but
Speaker 1: not necessarily relevant because they didn't feel like museums were
Speaker 1: talking about issue within our society and wasn't standing up
Speaker 1: for anything. And so that's incredibly important to know that
Speaker 1: our society wants to see museums become more involved. There
Speaker 1: were a lot of people asking for changes made within
Speaker 1: the leadership and within policies of museums as well. And
Speaker 1: so what I did was I created the very first
Speaker 1: map and directory of museums created by black, Indigenous and
Speaker 1: other people of color. The map now has over one
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty museums throughout the country. The list is
Speaker 1: still growing, but it shows these community museums, or also
Speaker 1: known as culturally specific museums, their pedagogy is one that
Speaker 1: puts community before collections. These community museums or doing incredible
Speaker 1: work across the country. My work right now looks like
Speaker 1: supporting those institutions and in the same time challenging the
Speaker 1: racial infrastructure of those larger museums that we know by name.
Speaker 1: You stated clearly the problem, and you stated clearly what's
Speaker 1: going on a lot of inequity within the museum field.
Speaker 1: Talk to me about how you went from identifying that
Speaker 1: problem to starting your company, Museum hu and then how
Speaker 1: Museum Hugh worked with museums in order to create more
Speaker 1: equity within the field. So it really started out as
Speaker 1: like a collective to think about what we were going through,
Speaker 1: how we can speak up, how we can speak out,
Speaker 1: and things like that. And then we decided to bring
Speaker 1: these conversations within the museum themselves. And the first one
Speaker 1: was actually at the met and it was like thirty
Speaker 1: of us and we had conversations around the anti blackness
Speaker 1: in Egyptology, the lack of conversations around what Egypt looked
Speaker 1: like and having black people around it. We had conversations
Speaker 1: around the Metropolitan Museum has artifacts from all across the world, right,
Speaker 1: and ninety percent of the staff and the curators are
Speaker 1: still white, right, So it's not even cultural representation there
Speaker 1: within the cultural collections. So having real conversations like that
Speaker 1: within the institution we thought was really important. Museum started
Speaker 1: looking at Museum Hugh as a way to get more
Speaker 1: diverse people of color within their institutions who have the
Speaker 1: skills and expertise and knowledge. We hosted zoom conversations with
Speaker 1: hundreds of folks throughout the country around what they were
Speaker 1: dealing with at work in the museum, and so all
Speaker 1: of those things are really incredibly important to museum who
Speaker 1: as we continue to move forward, and I'll mention this
Speaker 1: last thing here in New York City, with the support
Speaker 1: from the New York City Department of Cultural Affairs, I'm
Speaker 1: creating what's what we're calling Hugh Arts NYC, where it's
Speaker 1: looking specifically at of color created and led arts organizations
Speaker 1: to amplify their work and provide additional support and also
Speaker 1: write a comprehensive report about their experience in creating and
Speaker 1: leading these arts organizations. Listening to you, it sounds like
Speaker 1: you know the work that you're doing to create space
Speaker 1: for black and brown folks, especially to be included within
Speaker 1: the field itself and to be included in the conversations
Speaker 1: of the field. It does sound a lot like DEI work,
Speaker 1: and I can understand the separation that you have because
Speaker 1: you're not actually teaching them how to be You're just
Speaker 1: talking about bringing folks to the table, as opposed to
Speaker 1: confunting internalized biased or going down a very technical path.
Speaker 1: You're just saying, Hey, there's black and brown folks here,
Speaker 1: let's bring them to the table. Sure. And also within
Speaker 1: the words diversity, equity, and inclusion encompasses so many different things.
Speaker 1: It almost always talks about, you know, gender, race, sexuality,
Speaker 1: and all of those things are important, but all of
Speaker 1: those things are large enough to have a space for themselves,
Speaker 1: and for me, it's about explicitly talking about race working
Speaker 1: within the structure of the museum system. What would you
Speaker 1: say to folks that say that, because the structure is
Speaker 1: inherently racist, and it's an inherently like a product of
Speaker 1: a structurally racist society, that it's impossible to see the
Speaker 1: types of changes that you want there. How do you
Speaker 1: respond to that type of criticism? Yeah, I think that
Speaker 1: what we know a lot of industries in the US,
Speaker 1: you know, comes from the support of colonialism, racism from
Speaker 1: our museums to our banks, and on and on and on. However,
Speaker 1: there is a way I believe that museums can be
Speaker 1: spaces where it creates equity and creates conversation around change,
Speaker 1: and not just conversations but implements change. So, for examples,
Speaker 1: the Native American Museum in California, which is you know,
Speaker 1: native run owned institution. During the pandemic, they change their
Speaker 1: entire focus, not just you know, looking at indigenous arts
Speaker 1: and culture, preserving that through their own again pedagogy, narratives,
Speaker 1: and perspectives, but they then began feeding the elders ancestral
Speaker 1: foods and such for their survival throughout the pandemic because
Speaker 1: they realize that people needed to literally be fed. Right,
Speaker 1: And so these cultural institutions, culturally specific institutions, these community museums,
Speaker 1: are really looking at the health and well being of
Speaker 1: their community. For the larger museum field. That is that's crazy, right,
Speaker 1: we can't be definitely, we have to exactly so that
Speaker 1: kind of work is incredibly important. New York Historical Society,
Speaker 1: for example, which is not a culturally specific museum, in
Speaker 1: response to the former president's charge against you lack of
Speaker 1: support for immigrants, they created what's known as the Citizenship Project,
Speaker 1: where they help New Yorkers working on becoming a citizens.
Speaker 1: They provided the opportunity to teach them citizenship tests right
Speaker 1: through their collection. They taught people, and then what they
Speaker 1: also did was provided a space for them. They did
Speaker 1: so in a real way that creates real impact. And
Speaker 1: the reason why they're able to do that is because
Speaker 1: they don't separate themselves from the communities that they represent.
Speaker 1: So let me ask you, how do you know that
Speaker 1: what you're doing is working. It feels like it's hard
Speaker 1: to really see a metric here. What types of responses
Speaker 1: are you seeing from museums. We've helped hundreds of people
Speaker 1: gain jobs within the museum field, and I would also
Speaker 1: say the fact that Museum Who continuously is invited to
Speaker 1: many tables, whether it be conferences or keynotes and such,
Speaker 1: to talk about the real change that museums need to make,
Speaker 1: shows that you know, we are a reputable source within
Speaker 1: the field, and also that the field is paying attention
Speaker 1: to the large movement and community that Museum Who has created.
Speaker 1: I think that Museum Who has given voice to a
Speaker 1: lot of people who felt like they were voiceless and
Speaker 1: have encouraged people to use their voice in challenging the
Speaker 1: museum to change and to become more equitable. You talked
Speaker 1: a lot about local museums, especially local museums that are
Speaker 1: part of marginalized communities. How can listeners get involved at
Speaker 1: that level? There is there a place they need to go?
Speaker 1: Is there do they need to do to go in there?
Speaker 1: Speak to the managers, speak to visitors services. Where do
Speaker 1: they begin with engaging with those local museums. I think
Speaker 1: the first step is becoming knowledgeable of what steps have
Speaker 1: been taken and what is recommended for folks to take.
Speaker 1: And for me, how I did that myself was reading
Speaker 1: Mountain Frustrations, Art Museums in the Age of Black Power,
Speaker 1: even How to be an Anti Racist, all of those
Speaker 1: things shout out form. Yeah, you know, even even that
Speaker 1: book has helped me even in my work with museum here,
Speaker 1: and so it's incredibly important for people not to guess
Speaker 1: what's needed to be done, you know, on top of
Speaker 1: doing doing those incredibly important readings, you know, following folks
Speaker 1: who are doing the work. Of course, museum h and
Speaker 1: others day's museums are not neutral. There's also museum detox.
Speaker 1: There is a plethora of articles that are constantly being
Speaker 1: written about how to recognize, you know, some challenges or
Speaker 1: issues within your museums that needs to be addressed. That
Speaker 1: is the first step. Thank you so much for being
Speaker 1: with us, Stephanie. Thank you. Stephanie Cunningham is the director
Speaker 1: of Museum Hue, which supports people of color within the
Speaker 1: museum field and works to situate and promote culturally informed
Speaker 1: museum exhibitions and experiences across the nation. We'll have links
Speaker 1: to Stephanie's suggestions for ways you can learn more in
Speaker 1: our show notes. Next week, I'm talking with TV writer
Speaker 1: Mike guy Out about how to get creative, young black
Speaker 1: writers into the writer's rooms of Hollywood. Mike was a
Speaker 1: lot of fun, thanks for Insecure, which is my favorite
Speaker 1: show right now. He's humbly passionate and he's really, really,
Speaker 1: really dedicated to building a pathway for the next generation.
Speaker 1: I laugh a lot in this episode, so get ready
Speaker 1: for that. I hope you'll join us for that conversation.
Speaker 1: Solvable is produced by Joscelyn Frank, researched by David John,
Speaker 1: booking by Lisa Dunn. Our managing producer is Sasha Matthias,
Speaker 1: and our executive producer is Mia Lobell. I'm Ronald Young Junior.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.