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Speaker 1: On this episode of The New World. President Trump met

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Speaker 1: this week with French President Emmanuel macrumb and United Kingdom

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Speaker 1: Prime Minister Kars Charmer to discuss the possible terms in

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Speaker 1: which the war between Ukraine and Russia could arrive at

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Speaker 1: a seasefarre. President Trump expressed, quote, I think a lot

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Speaker 1: of progress has been made. We've had some very good

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Speaker 1: talks with Russia. We've had some very good talks with others,

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Speaker 1: and we're trying to get the war ended with Russia

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Speaker 1: and Ukraine post quote. The Trump administration is also actively

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Speaker 1: negotiating the release of the Israeli hostages still being held

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Speaker 1: by Hamas. Here to discuss all of these topics, I'm

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Speaker 1: really pleased to welcome my guest, Victoria Coates, former Deputy

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Speaker 1: National Security Advisor to President Donald Trump and current Vice

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Speaker 1: president of the Catherine and Shelby col Um Davis Institute

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Speaker 1: for National Security and Foreign Policy at the Heritage Foundation.

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Speaker 1: Her new book, The Battle for the Jewish State, How

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Speaker 1: Israel and America Can Win, is available now. Victoria, welcome,

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Speaker 1: and thank you for joining me on News World.

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Speaker 2: Of course, it's a great pleasure.

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Speaker 1: So President Macrone visited the White House on Monday. Prime

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Speaker 1: Minister Starmer is set to visit the White House on

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Speaker 1: Thursday to discuss the Ukraine War and their relationship with

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Speaker 1: the United States. What do you see as the primary

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Speaker 1: goals of these leaders in their respective meetings, both in

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Speaker 1: terms of their bilateral relations with the United States and

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Speaker 1: their broader stance within Europe.

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Speaker 2: Now, I think this has been a critical week for

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Speaker 2: President Trump's stated goal of ending the Ukraine War, and

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Speaker 2: for the first time in three years in it we

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Speaker 2: marked on Monday the three year anniversary of Putin's invasion

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Speaker 2: of Ukraine. For the first time, we're seeing some diplomatic progress.

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Speaker 2: The Biden took the approach of freezing communications with the Russians,

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Speaker 2: never a good idea. President Reagan certainly didn't do anything

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Speaker 2: like that. They had very maximalist rhetoric towards Russia, and

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Speaker 2: I had this strategy of as much as it takes,

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Speaker 2: as long as it takes, which is a bumper sticker essentially.

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Speaker 2: And so I think President Trump, having inherited a really

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Speaker 2: intractable situation here with a war of attrition between Ukraine

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Speaker 2: and Russia, has prioritized ending the killing, as he says,

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Speaker 2: and getting the war to an acceptable solution to just

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Speaker 2: tamp down that concern because he knows we've got bigger

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Speaker 2: fish to fry and bigger problems.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: The Europeans, of course, have responded with panic to the

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Speaker 2: return of the president, which I think is a good thing,

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Speaker 2: and I think that's why you've had President Macron and

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Speaker 2: Prime Minister Starmer visiting Washington this week, and we will

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Speaker 2: actually also have President Zelensky at the end of the

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Speaker 2: week to discuss the mineral Deallly sign it. But I

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Speaker 2: think what you're seeing here is President Trump getting results

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Speaker 2: out of Europe. We had the Prime Minister of the

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Speaker 2: UK pledged to get to two and a half percent.

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Speaker 2: That's not enough, but that's better than where they are

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Speaker 2: in terms of defense spending percentage of GDP. You have

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Speaker 2: mccron talking about a European army, which is a terrible idea.

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Speaker 2: He should invest in his own defenses and NATO defenses.

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Speaker 2: But at least they're talking about their defenses. And this

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Speaker 2: is three years though into a war in Europe. Finally

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Speaker 2: we're getting some progress. So I think this is a

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Speaker 2: huge week and very important for the Transatlantic relationship.

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Speaker 1: I want to go back to the line you used

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Speaker 1: about the Biden administration, which was, you know, they should

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Speaker 1: fight as long as it takes. The problem with that

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Speaker 1: was it was Ukrainians doing the fighting, not the diplomats,

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Speaker 1: and so young Ukrainians were being killed in enormous numbers,

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Speaker 1: with no strategy, no sense of how you're going to win.

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Speaker 1: And it seems that's part of what Trump entered, was

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Speaker 1: that you'd watch three years of total failure to cope

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Speaker 1: with and defeat the Russian throne.

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Speaker 2: Now and I think you could probably with hindsight, identify

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Speaker 2: a period in twenty twenty two when Ukraine had the

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Speaker 2: momentum that you could have done something decisive, maybe with

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Speaker 2: major NATO allies. They wasn't done. The incremental assistance provided

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Speaker 2: by the Biden administration was enough to keep Ukraine from losing,

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Speaker 2: but not enough to let them win. And now, as

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Speaker 2: you said, we're in this situation where we've had hundreds

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Speaker 2: of thousands of dead Ukrainians. And I have to say,

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Speaker 2: in Washington, it's a standard line that, oh, well, they're

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Speaker 2: not asking Americans to die in this war, and we're

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Speaker 2: modernizing our military, so this is great, but we're doing

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Speaker 2: that on the backs of a lot of dead Ukrainians

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Speaker 2: which to do something modernize our military that we should

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Speaker 2: do anyway, and I think that's what President Trump isn't

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Speaker 2: willing to buy into, and that he wants that carnage

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Speaker 2: to stop.

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Speaker 1: It was interesting that French President Macrome said an interviewed

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Speaker 1: before met with Trump, quote what I'm going to do

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Speaker 1: is I'm going to tell him, basically, you cannot be

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Speaker 1: weak in the face of President Putin. It's not you,

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Speaker 1: it's not your trademark. But then during a joint of

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Speaker 1: this conference after their meeting, Macron said, quote, this piece

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Speaker 1: must not mean a surrender of Ukraine. He must not

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Speaker 1: mean a ceasefire without guarantees. This piece must allow for

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Speaker 1: Ukrainian sovereignty. It strikes me that there's a desperate interest

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Speaker 1: on part of the internationalists to assume that somehow Trump

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Speaker 1: is Putin's puppet, because they can't accept the idea that

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Speaker 1: maybe there's an alternative path to getting this thing done.

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Speaker 1: I mean, do you have that same feeling that the

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Speaker 1: level of vitriol, the level of language almost represents the

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Speaker 1: de reader which their worldview has been repudiated, rather than

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Speaker 1: an analysis of what's going on.

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Speaker 2: No, I agree with that, and if you look at

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Speaker 2: what President Trump has done since he's been in office

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Speaker 2: versus some of his rhetoric. What he has done has

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Speaker 2: been pretty rough on Russia. And that would be things

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Speaker 2: like the energy renaissance that he's promising with Secretary Bergen

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Speaker 2: and Secretary Right hard at work to unleash American energy.

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Speaker 2: That's a terrible thing for Russia. They don't like that

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Speaker 2: at all. And then this mineral deal with Ukraine, which

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Speaker 2: gives the United States a vested interest in Ukraine's security

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Speaker 2: because that is a deal that theoretically will be very

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Speaker 2: profitable for both our countries. So those are material steps

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Speaker 2: he's taking. At the same time, Sure, maybe he's saying

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Speaker 2: some nicer things about Russia than the Biden administration said,

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Speaker 2: but that costs him nothing. And sure they adjusted the

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Speaker 2: language on the United Nations General Assembly resolution. But I

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Speaker 2: can't think of anything, off the top of my head

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Speaker 2: more useless than a United Nations General Assembly resolution. So

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Speaker 2: that's an easy give from President Trump's perspective. It doesn't

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Speaker 2: cost anything. Meanwhile, he is taking material actions which actually

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Speaker 2: do cost Russia something. So I would be very cautious

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Speaker 2: about saying that he is Putin's puppet. Especially because we

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Speaker 2: have the fact that of the previous three presidents, the

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Speaker 2: only president under whom Ukraine was not invaded was President Trump.

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Speaker 2: So that's hardly what happens when you're somebody's puppet.

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Speaker 1: When I look at Trump's centeriur career. And if you

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Speaker 1: go back and read his two best books, The Art

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Speaker 1: of the Deal and The Order of the Comeback, he

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Speaker 1: understands if you can't get the other guy in the room,

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Speaker 1: you're not going to get a deal. So I think

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Speaker 1: some of this posturing is designed to say that Putin, look,

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Speaker 1: this is a different moment, I'm a different guy. We

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Speaker 1: can find a way to work together. And it strikes

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Speaker 1: me if you have any possibility of getting to a

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Speaker 1: truce or a ceasequare Putin has to have a buy

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Speaker 1: in or he can just sit there and continue this

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Speaker 1: war for twenty more years. No.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I think that's also the problem with the

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Speaker 2: way the media has characterized Putin as the devil and

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Speaker 2: President Zelenski as the savior. You just have these two polls,

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Speaker 2: and it made it possible to deal with Vladimir Putin.

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Speaker 2: And regardless of what we might want to be the

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Speaker 2: case in Russia, he is the decision maker, and President

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Speaker 2: Trump has always been very clear with that that he

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Speaker 2: wants to deal with the decision maker for the reasons

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Speaker 2: you described that are laid out in both of those books.

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Speaker 2: That you can't deal with underlings. You can't deal with

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Speaker 2: people who have to run back to their boss every

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Speaker 2: fifteen minutes to get the okay on something. You need

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Speaker 2: the decision maker, and that is Vladimir Putin for Russia.

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Speaker 2: It's just a fact. And so I do think what

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Speaker 2: we've seen over the last couple of weeks is a

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Speaker 2: leveling of that playing field. Certainly, I think President Zelenski's

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Speaker 2: characterization of President Trump as being in a Russian disinformation

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Speaker 2: space was an unfortunate episode, and I think the President

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Speaker 2: struck back as he will. And the other thing he

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Speaker 2: hit on nut that really struck me is the fact

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Speaker 2: that we haven't had elections in Ukraine because the Biden

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Speaker 2: administration has sold this to the American people over the

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Speaker 2: last three years as an excidential threat democracy and that

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Speaker 2: we were defending the very principles of democracy and that

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Speaker 2: was why we were going to commit so much treasure

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Speaker 2: to Ukraine. Well, we've learned this in the Middle East

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Speaker 2: over the last twenty years that going to war for

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Speaker 2: democracy is not going to be a successful recipe. If

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Speaker 2: you're going to go to war or contribute to a war,

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Speaker 2: it has to be in your vital national security interests.

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Speaker 2: And I love democracy. I'm an eager practitioner in it.

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Speaker 2: I wrote a book about the history of it. I

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Speaker 2: am in no way opposed to it. But it's not

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Speaker 2: a cause for war. And so that I think was

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Speaker 2: a fallacy that President Trump really put his finger on

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Speaker 2: when he was like, and look, and the guy that's

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Speaker 2: supposed to be our savior is not practicing his democracy.

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Speaker 2: He's not having elections. So I think that's been a

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Speaker 2: very clarifying moment as well.

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Speaker 1: I was surprised when Trump first came up with this

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Speaker 1: mineral deal. I would have thought that Zawski would have

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Speaker 1: grabbed it, because if you get America deeply involved in

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Speaker 1: the Ukrainian economy, you make it much less likely the

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Speaker 1: rush we'll ever attack again.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, this is also what I think should be the

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Speaker 2: model now that we're dismantling the broken paradigm of USAID,

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Speaker 2: which had its role in the Cold War. It drifted

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Speaker 2: from that mission clearly in the nineties and certainly over

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Speaker 2: the last twenty years. It can't be fixed at this point.

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Speaker 2: But if you look at these deals for mutual sort

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Speaker 2: of co development of resources, it kind of goes back

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Speaker 2: to the iramco model with Saudi Arabia, and you create

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Speaker 2: a corporation in essence that is an asset to both

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Speaker 2: countries and a source of prosperity. And so I would

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Speaker 2: love to see this successful deal be replicated in Africa,

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Speaker 2: in Latin America. You know, it could be a great

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Speaker 2: way to spread American influence and very positively shape the

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Speaker 2: development of these countries and not just be a gift

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Speaker 2: from the US taxpayer, and certainly not be in the

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Speaker 2: service of some very liberal, woke social agenda as USAID

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Speaker 2: has been in recent years.

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Speaker 1: Starmer has made a point I'm just going to quote

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Speaker 1: from a speech he gave at the Scottish Labor Party

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Speaker 1: conference in Glasgow. He said, nobody wants the bloodshed to continue,

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Speaker 1: nobody least of all the Ukrainians. But after everything that

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Speaker 1: they have suffered, after everything that they have fought for,

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Speaker 1: there could be no discussion about Ukraine without Ukraine. And

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Speaker 1: the people of Ukraine must have a long term secure future.

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Speaker 1: Let's what I agree with the last part. They should

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Speaker 1: have a long term secure future. In the Korean War,

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Speaker 1: the United States Chinese negotiations Penman John had neither North

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Speaker 1: or South Korea in them. In the Vietnam War, the

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Speaker 1: negotiations in Paris were between the units in North Vietnam

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Speaker 1: and didn't have the South Vietnamese in them. So it's

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Speaker 1: not abnormal for great powers to set on and deal

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Speaker 1: with each other and not necessarily have their ally at

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Speaker 1: the table. I mean in that sense, isn't this trying

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Speaker 1: to set a different standard.

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Speaker 2: It is, and I think particularly the meeting in Saudi

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Speaker 2: Arabia was just a very important re establishment of contact.

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Speaker 2: One of the things that actually came out of the

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Speaker 2: Helsinki summit between President Trump and President Putin was a

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Speaker 2: directive for the National Security Council staffs to talk to

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Speaker 2: each other. So we actually did during the Trump administration.

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Speaker 2: We met with the Russians in Geneva, we went and

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Speaker 2: met with him in Moscow and in Jerusalem, so there

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Speaker 2: was contact, there was discussion, but that was between Russia

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Speaker 2: and the United States. And I think the meeting with

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Speaker 2: Secretary of Rubio and National Security Advisor Waltz was very

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Speaker 2: important for establishing that contact between the Russians and the

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Speaker 2: United States and starting to have discussions. And I thought

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Speaker 2: that was particularly interesting meeting taking place in riadd because

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Speaker 2: you'd had for the first time, to my knowledge, the

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Speaker 2: three biggest energy producers in the world in the same room,

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Speaker 2: and apparently they did talk about energy.

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Speaker 1: You know, I had not thought that that's a great

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Speaker 1: point symbolically, that you have the overwhelming weight of the

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Speaker 1: world's oil supply sitting in that one room. I also

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Speaker 1: thought it was interesting, and I suspect deliberate as opposed

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Speaker 1: to going to Geneva or somewhere in Europe, the kind

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Speaker 1: of place John Kerrey liked. We had a good four

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Speaker 1: star hotel, terrific restaurants. They both honored the Saudis and

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Speaker 1: established a different structure of thinking about things to have

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Speaker 1: the meeting in Saudi Arabia rather than Europe. I'm sure

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Speaker 1: it was deliberate, but it was just to me kind

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Speaker 1: of fascinating comment on how the world is changing.

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Speaker 2: It is and I think the Biden administration found out

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Speaker 2: the hard way between Pariah what Joe Biden as a

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Speaker 2: candidate referred to the kingdom as and then the getting

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Speaker 2: to the fist bump when he realized that there was

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Speaker 2: this very significant role that Saudi has to play and

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Speaker 2: the reason that we had an eighty year alliance with them.

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Speaker 2: And so that is something President Trump obviously recognized from

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Speaker 2: the get go, and the location of his first trip

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Speaker 2: in the spring of twenty seventeen. He went to Riad

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Speaker 2: first and then he went to Jerusalem, and then he

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Speaker 2: went to Rome. And that is I think what he's

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Speaker 2: proposing to do again, and that demonstrates his appreciation for

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Speaker 2: the significance of that relationship and the role that Saudi

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Speaker 2: can play. Because obviously NBS is well known to both

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Speaker 2: President Trump and President Putin, they both have his ear

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Speaker 2: as well. I think it just makes a lot of sense.

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Speaker 1: I'm curious so that all the time Oil with the

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Speaker 1: two speeches advanced, both the artificial intelligence speech in Paris

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Speaker 1: and then the very aggressive speech at them Munich meeting,

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Speaker 1: and with the excess varied aggressive speech in Brussels. To

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Speaker 1: what extent are the Europeans just kind of in a

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Speaker 1: state of shock that this new administration is so willing

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Speaker 1: to challenge them about patterns that have sort of defined

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Speaker 1: Europe for the last thirty years.

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Speaker 2: I think it should come as no surprise to them,

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Speaker 2: but they are very, very surprised, even having lived through

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Speaker 2: the first Trump term. So our message to them has

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Speaker 2: been you hold this relationship in your hands, and if

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Speaker 2: you stop with the climate extremist nonsense and you start

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Speaker 2: investing in your defenses, you will have no better friend

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Speaker 2: and ally than the United States. And that was the

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Speaker 2: message from Secretary Hegseth and from the Vice President. We actually,

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Speaker 2: as Heritage had a group over in Munich as well,

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Speaker 2: having one of the very few conservative defense events with

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Speaker 2: Senator Sullivan and Senator Schmidt. So it was a good

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Speaker 2: opportunity to show support for the administration from the Congress,

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Speaker 2: from the think tank world that American conservatives are united

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Speaker 2: on this, and hopefully that message is received in Europe

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Speaker 2: and they start matching their words about concern about Russia

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Speaker 2: and their security situation with their deeds.

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Speaker 1: I described it in an article that in a sense,

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Speaker 1: what JD. Evans was doing was the equivalent of having

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Speaker 1: a neighbor who was an alcoholic, and was an intervention

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Speaker 1: that he's actually trying to say the Europeans, look, we

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Speaker 1: would really like for you to be successful. However, you

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Speaker 1: have to confront these problems if you don't have any

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Speaker 1: hope of being successful. I look at the decay of

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Speaker 1: Europe over the last forty years. You know there are

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Speaker 1: nineteen trillion dollar companies in the world, fourteen or American,

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Speaker 1: four are Chinese, and the last one is a roundco,

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Speaker 1: not a single European country as a competitive global company.

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Speaker 1: It's just astonishing to me when you think about it.

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Speaker 1: You do have some Europeans hungry Italy, Finland, and I

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Speaker 1: think the Swiss presidents also said some things, who are

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Speaker 1: all actually closer to JD Van's than they are to

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Speaker 1: Brussels in the way they reacted. What a you sense

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Speaker 1: about the next five or eight year evolution of European politics.

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Speaker 2: I think it's trending in the right way. And even

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Speaker 2: given what happened in the UK last year with Starmer's election,

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Speaker 2: I think there is a path for UK Conservatives to

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Speaker 2: reclaim the principles of Lady Thatcher and reassert British sovereignty

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Speaker 2: and national interests. And we've seen that in as you say,

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Speaker 2: Hungary and Italy. I think we could see it in Spain,

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Speaker 2: we could see more in France. What happened in Germany

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Speaker 2: was actually positive last week. I think it's a good step.

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Speaker 2: I think they can go farther, but it is a

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Speaker 2: repudiation of the eu centric globalist mindset, the Davos mindset,

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Speaker 2: to borrow phrase from my boss Kevin Roberts, that has

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Speaker 2: been poisonous for what should be one of the most

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Speaker 2: prospers for as successful partners of the United States in Europe.

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Speaker 2: So hopefully the tough love message has been received. And

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Speaker 2: one of our jobs here at Heritage is to reach

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Speaker 2: out to conservatives internationally and encourage them and share our

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Speaker 2: best practices, so we'll be very focused on that as well.

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Speaker 1: Leutore, I want to thank you for joining me. Your

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Speaker 1: new book, The Battle for the Jewish State, How Israel

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Speaker 1: and America Can Win is available now on Amazon and

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Speaker 1: in bookstores everywhere. We're going to feature a link to

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Speaker 1: buy it on our show page, and I want to

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Speaker 1: let our listeners know they can follow your recent work

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Speaker 1: by visiting the Heritage Foundation website at Heriage dot org.

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Speaker 1: Thank you very very much, Thank you Newton. Thank you

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Speaker 1: to my guest Victoria Coats. You can get a link

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Speaker 1: to buy her new book, The Battle for the Jewish State,

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Speaker 1: How Israel and America can win on our show page

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Speaker 1: at neutroorld dot com. NEUTRALD is produced by Game of

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Speaker 1: three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Guernsey Sloan.

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Speaker 1: Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. They are work Show Which

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Speaker 1: creator with Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team of

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Speaker 1: Ginglish through sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope

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