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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My

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Speaker 2: name is Joe McCormick, my.

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Speaker 3: Name is Robert Lamb, and today.

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Speaker 2: We're bringing you a new interview with Mark Mendica, executive

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Speaker 2: director of the Amphibian Foundation, based in Atlanta.

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Speaker 3: Mark has been on the show a couple of times before,

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Speaker 3: highlighting the work that the Amphibian Foundation does to help

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Speaker 3: critically endangered amphibian species and to educate the public about herpetology.

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Speaker 3: But it's been several years and the Amphibian Foundation recently

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Speaker 3: celebrated its tenth year, so we figured it was high

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Speaker 3: time to check back in with Mark.

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Speaker 2: We'll start with a bit of biographical information. Mark Mandica

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Speaker 2: is the co founder and executive director of the Amphibian Foundation,

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Speaker 2: a nonprofit organization dedicated to the study and conservation of amphibians.

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Speaker 2: His work puts him on the front line in efforts

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Speaker 2: to conserve declining native and tropical amphibians. He received his

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Speaker 2: bs from UMass where his thesis focused on the ephemeral

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Speaker 2: wetland ecology of amphibians. He then went on to the

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Speaker 2: American Museum of Natural History in New York, where he

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Speaker 2: worked as a curatorial assistant before moving to South Florida

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Speaker 2: for graduate school at U Miami. Mark's masters explored the

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Speaker 2: amphibian community ecology in the Everglades, photoreception related activity patterns

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Speaker 2: in South Florida buffinids, as well as the prey detection

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Speaker 2: and feeding mechanics of aquatic pipid frogs. Mark is also

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Speaker 2: a professional scientific illustrator and is published in textbooks as

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Speaker 2: well as the Journal Science, Nature, Journal of Experimental Biology, Zoology,

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Speaker 2: American Zoologist, and many others. Originally, Mark's academic interests were

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Speaker 2: broadly based on the form, function, and evolution of amphibians,

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Speaker 2: with particular interest in the biomechanics of feeding, prey detection, capture,

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Speaker 2: and transporting. The course of his studies, however, it became

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Speaker 2: increasingly difficult to simply find amphibians at study sites, and

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Speaker 2: as a result, he has joined fellow scientists and naturalists

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Speaker 2: to address the global amphibian decline crisis. Before founding the

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Speaker 2: Amphibian Foundation in twenty sixteen, he managed the amphibian conservation

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Speaker 2: program at the Atlanta Botanical Gardens. Marquez now dedicated the

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Speaker 2: majority of his time towards conservation efforts aimed at reversing

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Speaker 2: amphibian declines in the Southeast US and abroad, and teaching

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Speaker 2: amphibian biology, ecology, and conservation at the Amphibian Foundation and

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Speaker 2: Agnes Scott College, Indicator, Georgia.

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Speaker 3: Now, before we jump into the interview, proper, I do

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Speaker 3: want to encourage you to visit their website. It is

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Speaker 3: Amphibianfoundation dot org. There's tons of information there about all

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Speaker 3: the various programs they are involved in, and you can

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Speaker 3: follow them on multiple social media platforms as well. For instance,

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Speaker 3: they are Amphibian Foundation on Instagram. All right, without further Ado,

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Speaker 3: let's jump right into the conversation. Hi, Mark, welcome back

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Speaker 3: to the show.

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Speaker 4: Thank you great to be here.

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Speaker 3: So longtime listeners will remember you and the work you

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Speaker 3: do with the Amphibian Foundation from the past couple of

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Speaker 3: times you've been on the show. But for those who

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Speaker 3: weren't along for the ride back, then can you give

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Speaker 3: us a refresher on what the Amphibian Foundation is, what

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Speaker 3: its mission is, and how it came into being.

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Speaker 5: Absolutely, you know, I can't even believe it. Next year

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Speaker 5: it'll be ten years since we started the Amphibian Foundation

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Speaker 5: here in Atlanta, primarily to address the imminent extinction of

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Speaker 5: a particular species of salamander, the frosted flatwood salamander. But

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Speaker 5: since then the program has grown quite a bit and

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Speaker 5: we've added additional species. We fund these conservation actions through

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Speaker 5: our own educational programs, and so we've really built quite

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Speaker 5: a community. It's really blown my mind. We have thirty

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Speaker 5: staff members now about sixty volunteers. It's just really mind

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Speaker 5: blowing and just providing a place for people to come

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Speaker 5: and contribute to this wonderful group of animals that we're losing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, back in twenty eighteen, I believe we chatted a

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Speaker 3: bit about the plight of the frosted flatwood salamander. Can

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Speaker 3: you remind us a little bit about what the frosties

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Speaker 3: are all about? And more importantly, how are they doing?

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Speaker 3: How is the conservation effort going? Six years later?

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Speaker 5: Thank you for that, because I usually describe it as

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Speaker 5: this species is quietly going extinct. Most people have never

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Speaker 5: even heard of this species, a frosted flatwood salamander, but

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Speaker 5: it really was once quite a common species throughout the

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Speaker 5: entire southeast, and now it's gone from South Carolina and

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Speaker 5: it's almost gone in Georgia. There's one wetland left, and

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Speaker 5: then in Florida there are a couple of clusters of

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Speaker 5: puddles and then that's it. I mean, this is species

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Speaker 5: that we're considering at imminent risk of extinction. And it's

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Speaker 5: very mysterious as well. Because it's underground for fifty weeks

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Speaker 5: of the year. It's very challenging to find and study.

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Speaker 5: And so we were in twenty sixteen given permission from

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Speaker 5: the government to build a captive survival assurance colony. That's

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Speaker 5: when you know it's getting really bleak. When you feel

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Speaker 5: like the best chance of thwarting extinction is to actually

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Speaker 5: remove animals from the wild and protect them a very

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Speaker 5: bad sign. And that's where we were at with the frosties.

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Speaker 5: You know, there's been little glimmers of hope. We were

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Speaker 5: successfully able to breed that species for the first time

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Speaker 5: and so we have actual baby labord frosted flatwood salamanders

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Speaker 5: and once we did that, we were able to transfer

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Speaker 5: baby salamanders to four other institutions, so we have partners

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Speaker 5: now all working with this species. That's all very positive.

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Speaker 5: We have yet to be able to breed them again

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Speaker 5: at any facility, so we're still working on that and

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Speaker 5: in the wild the species continues to crash. And that's

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Speaker 5: the part that's really scary because it might be that

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Speaker 5: this captive program is what saves the species, and that's

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Speaker 5: really intense.

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Speaker 2: Do we know if the main drivers of the collapse

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Speaker 2: in the wild populations are due to habitat loss or

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Speaker 2: to other factors or what we do?

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Speaker 5: I think they are a long leaf pine endemic species,

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Speaker 5: and so that ecosystem was more or less removed, you know.

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Speaker 5: I think there's like between three and seven percent left

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Speaker 5: of that habitat. So really any species that is endemic

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Speaker 5: to that type of habitat is in trouble right now.

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Speaker 5: And that includes like gopher tortoises and indigo snakes, you know.

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Speaker 5: And there are a lot of the red cockaded woodpecker

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Speaker 5: gets a lot of attention, you know, and and so

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Speaker 5: the frosties are abummed because of that. But there are

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Speaker 5: more nuanced things that are directly impacting the species. Because

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Speaker 5: it's a salamander that is completely dependent on fire, which

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Speaker 5: is really interesting to think about a salamander that can't

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Speaker 5: live without fire and fire suppression and in other ways

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Speaker 5: that humans have altered fire regimes are still impacting the

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Speaker 5: frosties even on the lands where they're theoretically protected. They've

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Speaker 5: they've evolved over millions of years to co occur with fire,

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Speaker 5: so they know when to be out of the fire's way.

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Speaker 5: And so when humans either suppress the fire so the

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Speaker 5: habitat changes, or burn when it's more convenient for humans

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Speaker 5: to burn, that's not when the frosties are below ground

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Speaker 5: and out of harm's way. That's when they're up above

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Speaker 5: ground and they literally get burned. And so that's a

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Speaker 5: big problem. And then you add in the fact that

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Speaker 5: this is a species that breeds in ephemeral wetlands, wetlands

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Speaker 5: that hold water for a short periods of time, but

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Speaker 5: only when the ponds are dry. They won't breed in

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Speaker 5: a pond if it's full. They need to lay their

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Speaker 5: eggs in a dry pond and then the eggs wait

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Speaker 5: for rains to come and fill the pond and hatch

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Speaker 5: the eggs. That's worked for them for millions of years,

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Speaker 5: but it's not working for them in recent years because

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Speaker 5: of shifting climates and drought, and the eggs are often

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Speaker 5: just drying out and dying in the field. And so

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Speaker 5: that's most of our program is from collecting these eggs

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Speaker 5: from the field that are going to dry out and

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Speaker 5: they get brought back to the lab. And the people

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Speaker 5: that were collecting these eggs for us are our federal

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Speaker 5: partners that many of which are losing their jobs right now,

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Speaker 5: are waiting to find out if they'll have a job.

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Speaker 5: And it's added this layer of chaos because it's we're

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Speaker 5: right in the middle of the breeding season, like right now,

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Speaker 5: you know, this is what we should be doing right now,

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Speaker 5: and so it's terrifying.

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Speaker 2: Well, Mark, we may have covered this one of the

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Speaker 2: previous times you were on the show, but it might

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Speaker 2: be worth getting into it again. It's fascinating. You mentioned

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Speaker 2: how the salamanders rely on fire for their life cycle.

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Speaker 2: Could you give a little more detail on that. In

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Speaker 2: what way do they rely on fire? How does that

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Speaker 2: fit into what they do?

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Speaker 5: Sure, the long leaf pine ecosystem is historically maintained by fire,

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Speaker 5: and the animals that live in that environment have adapted

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Speaker 5: to it, you know, And so we're talking about burn

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Speaker 5: cycles of every one to three years. That's how frequently

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Speaker 5: their area would burn, usually during the spring and summer.

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Speaker 5: Usually fires caused by lightning strike would ignite and Only

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Speaker 5: the plants that can survive that much of a pummeling persist,

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Speaker 5: and that keeps them the habitat wide open. These are

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Speaker 5: you know, there are long leaf pine savannas. They're called

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Speaker 5: the flat woods in some areas.

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Speaker 4: Because the.

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Speaker 5: Ponds are very shallow, you might not even notice them.

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Speaker 5: If you know, especially because the flat woods breed in

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Speaker 5: dry ponds, you might not even recognize that a few

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Speaker 5: inches of a depression somewhere are actually a really important

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Speaker 5: wetland and it needs to burn. The bottoms of the

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Speaker 5: ponds need to burn out, otherwise the habitat changes. If

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Speaker 5: you suppress the fire, the long leaf pine will get

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Speaker 5: outgrown by other trees, and other types of vegetation will

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Speaker 5: eventually come in and replace it, and then it's no

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Speaker 5: longer suitable for the salamanders. And so that's the main

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Speaker 5: struggle with them.

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Speaker 3: And then in captivity is the sort of the main

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Speaker 3: challenges to getting them to breed? Do they seem to do?

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Speaker 3: These challenges seem to relate to just making sure that

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Speaker 3: the environmental conditions are just right that they'll want to

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Speaker 3: breed with each other.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it is a mystery. First, we were just trying

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Speaker 5: to figure out how to keep these things alive, because

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Speaker 5: that had never been done before, and they didn't come

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Speaker 5: with an instruction manual of any kind. And so we

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Speaker 5: started to notice things that we were interpreting as interest

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Speaker 5: in breeding behavior, and so we tried putting them together

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Speaker 5: in different assortments and different arrangements and tried to queue

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Speaker 5: in on what we thought was you know, giving them

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Speaker 5: the signals, and so we got it right a couple

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Speaker 5: of years ago, but we haven't been able to recreate

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Speaker 5: that magic this year. Because we had groups set up

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Speaker 5: in multiple institutions with cameras, we were able to observe

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Speaker 5: some of the breeding behaviors and they were clearly communicated.

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Speaker 5: You know, it really is surprising that they didn't breathe

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Speaker 5: this year. But I think basically that we are having

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Speaker 5: a lot of There are a lot of young animals,

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Speaker 5: and probably next year will be even more likely to

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Speaker 5: have success. But we were learning very quickly having so

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Speaker 5: many amazing partners working on this same problem together. When

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Speaker 5: we were first looking to set up these redundancies, you know,

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Speaker 5: we reached out to, you know, anyone we thought might

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Speaker 5: be interested in some of these amazing world class zoos

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Speaker 5: got involved. So we actually shifted animals out to Omaha.

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Speaker 5: So Omaha's Henry Dorley Zoo have some frosted flatwood salamanders

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Speaker 5: in North Carolina Zoo as well, and then the Brevard

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Speaker 5: Zoo in Florida, and then an actual federal fish archery,

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Speaker 5: the Warm Springs National Fish Archery has some frosted flat

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Speaker 5: with salamanders as well, And so we're still looking to

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Speaker 5: expand into other institututions as well. So if there are

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Speaker 5: institutions out there that might have the capacity to help

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Speaker 5: set up a colony of these guys, please reach out.

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Speaker 3: To me, because again, right now, captive rereading seems to

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Speaker 3: be like the main hope for these for the species

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Speaker 3: moving forward.

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Speaker 4: Right it's really hard to predict.

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Speaker 5: You know, if you would have asked me that question

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Speaker 5: a month ago or two months ago, I would have

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Speaker 5: given you a different answer than right now. But when

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Speaker 5: I'm talking to our partners, the ones that I can

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Speaker 5: still get on the phone, you know, they're saying, we

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Speaker 5: know the gun is to our head, we're waiting for

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Speaker 5: someone to pull the trigger, and they don't really know

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Speaker 5: if they're going to have a job, and they're not

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Speaker 5: optimistic that the Endangered Species Act is going to remain

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Speaker 5: intact either, and so there's a lot that it's changing

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Speaker 5: very fundamentally right now in ways that are scaring me.

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Speaker 2: Well, Mark, to stick with the scary stuff for the moment.

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Speaker 2: We have been talking specifically about the frosted flatwood salamander,

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Speaker 2: but I was all also looking at some research published

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Speaker 2: just the past couple of years in Nature before we

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Speaker 2: came in to talk today. It was based on assessments

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Speaker 2: from a number of conservation groups saying that currently amphibians

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Speaker 2: are the most threatened class of all the world's vertebrates.

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Speaker 2: Do we know what are the main causes for this

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Speaker 2: or what do we think are the most likely causes?

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Speaker 4: Absolutely? Absolutely, thank you for that.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, there are more amphibians than mammals and birds combined

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Speaker 5: that are threatened right now.

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Speaker 4: You know, it's just and.

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Speaker 5: It's the same things that are impacting other types of wildlife.

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Speaker 5: It's just that with amphibians it's times a thousand, you know,

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Speaker 5: because it's really comes down to their skin. And for example,

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Speaker 5: you'll never see a frog drink, you won't. They just

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Speaker 5: absorb everything right through their skin, and that includes anything

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Speaker 5: that we have put into the environment as well. That

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Speaker 5: also gets absorbed into the frog's skin, you know. So

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Speaker 5: like when I was an undergrad, we were seeing frogs

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Speaker 5: with birth defects, being born with extra limbs or not

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Speaker 5: enough limbs, you know, in areas where you would normally

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Speaker 5: expect the amphibians to be okay. That was in the

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Speaker 5: nineties and it's really only gotten worse since then. I mean,

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Speaker 5: you'll hear you'll hear that amphibians sometimes described as the canary.

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Speaker 4: In the coal mine, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 5: And so if that's true, then amphibians are some type

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Speaker 5: of warning for humans.

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Speaker 4: Well, they've been warning us for decades, you.

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Speaker 5: Know, deformities, die offs, massive die offs. It's just like

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Speaker 5: it's really hard to imagine how much more of a

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Speaker 5: warning the amphibians could be giving us.

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Speaker 4: You know, like.

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Speaker 5: The the tap water you know, would kill all of

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Speaker 5: the amphibians. Here at the Amphibian Foundation, we have to

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Speaker 5: filter it so significantly and put it through all these

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Speaker 5: processes just to make it safe.

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Speaker 4: And that's the stuff that we like.

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Speaker 5: Bathe bathe in all the time, ticket shower. It's lethal

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Speaker 5: to amphibians, you know. It's just it's hard to think

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Speaker 5: that we're not connected to this somehow, But it's like

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Speaker 5: their amphibians are so sensitive due to that, you know,

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Speaker 5: and diseases that we can move around and invertently can

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Speaker 5: really be devastating because amphibian skin is so sensitive about

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Speaker 5: and it doesn't handle these types of perturbations very well,

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Speaker 5: whether that's pollution or agricultural chemicals, pharmaceuticals.

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Speaker 4: You know that you name it, it's impacting them.

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Speaker 2: I think I was also reading that there's some thinking

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Speaker 2: that amphibians are especially vulnerable to warm it to increasing temperatures,

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Speaker 2: maybe more so than other classes of vertebrates are.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Absolutely, I mean they're so intimately tied to the water.

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Speaker 5: Going back to the flatwood salamander, how risky is it

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Speaker 5: to breed in a dry pond? That's their strategy, you know,

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Speaker 5: but it's over millions of years, you know. They obviously

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Speaker 5: wouldn't always work out for them, but more often than

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Speaker 5: it wouldn't, it would work out. And now that that

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Speaker 5: is shifting and the ponds are holding water at different

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Speaker 5: times of the year than they have historically, that's very different.

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Speaker 5: That's not something that amphibians can catch up to quickly enough,

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Speaker 5: so they're very sensitive to even these small shifts.

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Speaker 4: In the climate.

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Speaker 3: Now we've been talking about the environmental challenges for amphibians,

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Speaker 3: and also some of these other top down governmental and

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Speaker 3: political challenges as well. On the other end of the spectrum,

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Speaker 3: you know, this brings to mind education and the public awareness,

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Speaker 3: and I know another huge part of the Amphibian foundations

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Speaker 3: is educational, both in terms of teaching future herpetologists and

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Speaker 3: raising awareness of critical species. Have you observed an uptick

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Speaker 3: in the public's enthusiasm for herbs in general and amphibians

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Speaker 3: and salamanders in particular.

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Speaker 5: Oh, that's a great question, and I think I think

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Speaker 5: it's kind of mixed because I think the Internet probably

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Speaker 5: has been really good for amphibians and reptiles, but then

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Speaker 5: you also see a lot of people doing horrible things

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Speaker 5: to them, you know, So it's like it's a double

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Speaker 5: edged sword, I guess, you know, so it's really made

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Speaker 5: up markets for some pretty horrible things. But ultimately I

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Speaker 5: do think that there are there's more awareness of what's happening,

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Speaker 5: and it certainly is easier for us to get our

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Speaker 5: message out to the community.

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Speaker 3: I don't want to discuss every all the horrible details necessarily,

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Speaker 3: but when you mention horrible things you're talking about things

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Speaker 3: involving say captive salamanders or herbs, or encounters with wild species.

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Speaker 5: At that time, I was talking about encounters with wild

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Speaker 5: species and the things that people do to them in

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Speaker 5: the wild. Yeah, but a gat go either way. There's

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Speaker 5: a study that just got shared with me. Someone was

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Speaker 5: measuring the social media response. This was a group out

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Speaker 5: of Ireland, I believe it could have been Scotland, about

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Speaker 5: the social media impact on certain extinctions and they used

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Speaker 5: the raps fringe limp tree frog that went extinct here

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Speaker 5: in Atlanta as an example of the comparing because unfortunately

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Speaker 5: there are several species that have gone extinct, and so

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Speaker 5: it was measuring the impact and that when Toughie went

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Speaker 5: extinct in Atlanta in twenty sixteen, that was a movement

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Speaker 5: that was talked about for longer periods of time, maybe

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Speaker 5: by not as many people as as as some of

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Speaker 5: these other things, but it had a duration. It really

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Speaker 5: spoke to a certain amount of people, very very profoundly.

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Speaker 5: And so that that gave me a little bit of

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Speaker 5: hope too as far as the the awareness, you know,

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Speaker 5: because having having worked through an actual extinction once already,

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Speaker 5: I just know that that feeling of such profound loss

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Speaker 5: that you know, it really drives a lot of the

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Speaker 5: work that we're currently still doing where we're teetering right

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Speaker 5: on the edge here of some really bleak stuff.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Now, in terms of like social media awareness of various species,

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Speaker 3: I'm to understand that since we last spoke, Actle lottels

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Speaker 3: were introduced into the popular Mindcraft video game, and that

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Speaker 3: this has helped to fuel greater popularity for for for

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Speaker 3: actual lottels. I'm curious of the amphibian and herpetology world

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Speaker 3: have observed, like any impact from their rising popularity, Like

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Speaker 3: people find them cute, they're like stuffed animals off them,

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Speaker 3: and I guess maybe more people are trying to obtain

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Speaker 3: them as pets. Does this have just kind of a

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Speaker 3: neutral impact or is it a positive or negative effect?

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Speaker 5: Do you think it's really hard to measure, especially since

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Speaker 5: that species is extinct in the wild. You know, like

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Speaker 5: it's doing really well in the pet trade and in captivity.

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Speaker 5: But I'm not I'm curious how many of the enthusiasts

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Speaker 5: are also aware of how bad it is for that

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Speaker 5: species in the wild. And we call them Acxi lottels here,

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Speaker 5: but in there and where they live. There are more

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Speaker 5: than one species of our axe lottel or big big

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Speaker 5: guilt neotenic salamanders, and those those species are still there,

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Speaker 5: but a lot of them are in big trouble. So

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Speaker 5: I would personally like to see a lot of this

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Speaker 5: attention going towards those types of awareness projects or maybe

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Speaker 5: even even fundraising. But ultimately I would call it a

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Speaker 5: net neutral because I haven't seen any evidence of that.

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Speaker 3: The Accele lottels you mentioned being extinct in the wild.

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Speaker 3: I was recently listening to a podcast interview on the

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Speaker 3: podcast Ologies with an Accele lottl scientist and they had

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Speaker 3: mentioned that most of the Acx lottels that we have

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Speaker 3: in the world in captivity are actually more French than Mexican.

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Speaker 3: At this point, there's like, are They're all descended from

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Speaker 3: a population that was taken out of Mexico by a

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Speaker 3: French scientist many many years ago.

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Speaker 5: Wow, this is news to me. Fascinating. Okay, so they're

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Speaker 5: more French than Mexican. I know that there's a bunch

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Speaker 5: that have also been mixed with other Ambistoma species and

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Speaker 5: that they present as Acx lottels, but they might suddenly

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Speaker 5: met MorphOS which would be a really good clue that

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Speaker 5: that's not actually an xCE lotte if it metamorphosed, because

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Speaker 5: xcelettles can't.

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Speaker 3: Now, given that ax a Lottels seem to be relatively

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Speaker 3: successful in captivity, does this pose a hurdle to educating

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Speaker 3: folks about like the dangers and the challenges involved with

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Speaker 3: these other species we've been talking about, maybe a tendency

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Speaker 3: to think, oh, well, if you can raise ax lottos

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Speaker 3: in captivity, if I can see when when I go,

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Speaker 3: you know, to this facility in town and then I

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Speaker 3: see them on the internet, they must be doing fine.

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Speaker 3: We must have we must have it figured out.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, that would be a bad message to send.

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Speaker 5: I think it's really the whole thing is really challenging,

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Speaker 5: and we we try to like stay away from the

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Speaker 5: pet trade angle and most things, and it's it's pretty discouraging,

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Speaker 5: you know, and I would love to see it move

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Speaker 5: towards more type sustainable types of things. We were on

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Speaker 5: a nature preserve in Atlanta and still we get people's

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Speaker 5: pets here all the time. They just released their pets

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Speaker 5: on the nature preserve.

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Speaker 4: It's really sad.

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Speaker 5: And you know, we're talking about like turtles mostly, you know,

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Speaker 5: and that's not good for the native turtles that are

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Speaker 5: just trying to make a living, you know, And so

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Speaker 5: I don't know, I know that's not totally related, but

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Speaker 5: it's it's kind of all in the same ball of wax.

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Speaker 3: Now, one of your outreach programs over the years has

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Speaker 3: been the Biology of the Despised. I know we talked

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Speaker 3: about this, and I think your last appearance on the

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Speaker 3: podcast a lot of this involving snakes, venomous snakes, but

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Speaker 3: also snakes that are mistaken for venomous snakes, as well

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Speaker 3: as things like snapping turtles.

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Speaker 5: Yes, yeah, did you you want me to just riff

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Speaker 5: on that because I can't?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, oh yeah, you're going yeah.

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Speaker 5: Because you know, that is something that I remember talking

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Speaker 5: with you guys about and I really appreciated that, and

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Speaker 5: it's something that we've continued to expand upon. So this

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Speaker 5: this weekend is our annual Biology of the Despised event

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Speaker 5: at the Atlanta Science Festival, and so this year we're

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Speaker 5: doing cotton mouths. So it's not a native Atlanta snake,

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Speaker 5: but they're very hated here in Atlanta, even though they

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Speaker 5: don't live here, and so we're highlighting them but we're

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Speaker 5: also building our first course that's going to go beyond

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Speaker 5: the amphibian and reptile tax We're going to go out

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Speaker 5: and it's just going to be a full biology of

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Speaker 5: the despised and highlighting invertebrates. You know, there's lots of

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Speaker 5: despised stuff. We've been reaching casting a net far and

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Speaker 5: wide about that. Maybe I'll reach out to you guys

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Speaker 5: too to see if you have any suggestions for how

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Speaker 5: we could expand, because we're just trying to cast the

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Speaker 5: widest net possible and really give people an opportunity to

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Speaker 5: showcase the species that they work with that are also

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Speaker 5: despised and misunderstood and maligned. And you know, it's just

427
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Speaker 5: all stemming from the fact that my field her petology

428
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:08,360
Speaker 5: was erected by a Swedish botanist just because he hated

429
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Speaker 5: those groups. That's what amphibians and reptiles have in common,

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Speaker 5: is that that dude hated them. That's the only reason

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Speaker 5: they're together. It's just really kind of like a badge

432
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 5: of honor thing.

433
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:21,080
Speaker 4: He called them.

434
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:24,560
Speaker 5: These are the foul and loathsome creatures.

435
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 4: And so that's crazy, you know, it's really nuts.

436
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 5: Because you know, amphibians and fish are more closely aligned.

437
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,320
Speaker 5: You might put reptiles and birds together, who knows, you know,

438
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:39,360
Speaker 5: But it's just really funny that that field has remained

439
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:41,400
Speaker 5: for two three hundred years already.

440
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 3: M Yeah, I think it's it's always interesting to look

441
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:49,160
Speaker 3: at how media, particularly horror movies, depicts these various creatures,

442
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:53,160
Speaker 3: you know, yeah, the creatures that are despised or are maligned,

443
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 3: like they're often showing up as a centralized threat in

444
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,360
Speaker 3: some sort of horror film, be it a shark or certainly,

445
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:01,199
Speaker 3: we've seen so many killers snake movies over the years.

446
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:05,119
Speaker 3: We even have some killer frog movies. But I was

447
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 3: just realizing the other day it was like, I don't

448
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 3: think I've ever seen a killer salamander movie. Oh yeah,

449
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,159
Speaker 3: I had to do some digging around. It looks I

450
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:16,200
Speaker 3: was not aware of this. Something came out in twenty

451
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,719
Speaker 3: twenty three called The Tank that features a giant salamander

452
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:24,439
Speaker 3: live creature like lives in somebody's basement meets cops. I

453
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 3: was reading or you know eats people that you know

454
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:28,359
Speaker 3: that wander into the house.

455
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 5: They're blowing my mind right now. I try to stay

456
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 5: up on these things. That's great.

457
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:36,880
Speaker 3: And then the recent Fallout vouching for it, or I'm

458
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 3: not vouching for it. I have not seen it. The

459
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 3: recent Fallout television series is good, I can vouch for that,

460
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 3: and it does have a big sylum mat salamander creature,

461
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 3: like a mutated salamander oh tries to eat people. But

462
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,120
Speaker 3: aside from those, you know, I even I looked at

463
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:57,159
Speaker 3: the California Herp's website, which has a great like database

464
00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:00,240
Speaker 3: of mostly older films, and like in any point point

465
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 3: a herb shows up being a lizard of snake or

466
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,440
Speaker 3: what have you, and they have a page about salamanders,

467
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,159
Speaker 3: and most of the instances where salamander pops up in

468
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 3: a film, it seems to have the role of being

469
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 3: sort of a mystical encounter or some sort of like

470
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:20,399
Speaker 3: a almost like a supernatural communication or dream imagery. And

471
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 3: I wonder what that says about our relationship thus far

472
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 3: with salamanders. You know, it's like almost like seeing a

473
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 3: fairy or a ghost.

474
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 5: Well, that's a great point, you're it's making me think

475
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 5: of this article I wrote read about this. I think

476
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 5: it was like some Croatian brandy that's made with the

477
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 5: salamander venom that it can it's way too powerful of

478
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,479
Speaker 5: an aphrodisiac. So according to what I was reading, like

479
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 5: you would just read with whatever was in the room

480
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 5: with you at the point, if you had any whether

481
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 5: that be a chair or a goat, I don't know.

482
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 5: It's just really fun because like you think of that

483
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 5: a lot. It's like eye of newt or whatever or

484
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 5: some of these really, I mean, newts have some of

485
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 5: the most toxic compounds known to science in them, and

486
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 5: some people do recreationally do some newt, you know, or

487
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 5: toads or something like that. But it's it's interesting because

488
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 5: I agree that, like when you think about it, that

489
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 5: there's more mysteriousness there with the salamanders than maybe with

490
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:27,960
Speaker 5: the frogs.

491
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 3: Now coming back a little bit to conservation topics with

492
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 3: with with salamanders and newts and so forth, I mean,

493
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 3: there are also a lot of research angles that go

494
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 3: beyond just merely preserving the species. Like I'm understand that

495
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 3: actual models feature into a number of different scientific research

496
00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 3: programs with some huge potentials for human health down the road.

497
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 3: I mean, I guess it's always the case with any

498
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 3: species that we losing them is not only like a

499
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 3: loss of the planet it is like selfishly potentially a

500
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 3: huge loss for us because who knows what secrets could

501
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 3: be unlocked with them.

502
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a that's an excellent point.

503
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:24,520
Speaker 5: And a lot of the talks that I give, especially

504
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 5: if I'm not preaching to the choir, I do a

505
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 5: lot of audiences that are already sold on amphibians. But

506
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 5: when I'm reaching out to a new audience, you know,

507
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 5: trying to make a case for amphibians, and so I

508
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 5: always start with bugs. They eat tons of bugs, That's

509
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 5: what they're meant.

510
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 4: To do, you know.

511
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 5: They some of them specialize in mosquitoes. And then I

512
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 5: run through all the reasons why you should think amphibians

513
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 5: are worth saving. And then the last argument I make

514
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 5: is the pharmaceutical value or the research value, or the

515
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 5: impact on human health. And there are so many compounds

516
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 5: in the amphibian skin that have great significant pharmaceutical value,

517
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 5: blocking viral transmission with one hundred percent effectiveness, relieving pain

518
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 5: more effectively than morphine without any addiction consequences. There's a

519
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 5: lot of stuff in there. And then at least two

520
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 5: of the things I just mentioned are from critically endangered

521
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 5: species that we know from compounds in their skin, and

522
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 5: so a lot of it's easy to think that we

523
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 5: are losing species before we've had a chance to even

524
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 5: look at that.

525
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 3: Now, for any young or not so young people out

526
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 3: there they're interested in amphibians and herpetology in general, what

527
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 3: steps could they or should they be taking if they're

528
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 3: interested in seriously pursuing it.

529
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 5: We've really, we've really focused a lot on providing an

530
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 5: entry way for people into the field. You know, and

531
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 5: we're based in Atlanta, so for folks that are in

532
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 5: the area, it might be a little easier because we

533
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 5: have so many voluntar here opportunities for people that can

534
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 5: afford to volunteer.

535
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:03,800
Speaker 4: You know.

536
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 5: It's it's proven to be a stepping stone to well

537
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 5: maybe if you wanted to go to school for it

538
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 5: or get some training in some capacities like that. Part

539
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 5: of this job has been extremely rewarding.

540
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 4: Uh.

541
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 5: And then we've been able to bring that to the

542
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 5: online community as well. Through through our educational programs. We

543
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 5: offered what was meaningless several years ago, a certificate and

544
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 5: master you're a master herpetologist at that point if you

545
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 5: complete the course successfully. But now it's not meaningless. Now

546
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 5: it actually has helped people to get into graduate schools,

547
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 5: help people to get jobs at zoos and at agencies,

548
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 5: you know. So then that feels really good to see

549
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 5: that we're providing a way, a mechanism because we really

550
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 5: need all hands on deck. There's there's plenty of work

551
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 5: to be done. We need as many people as possible

552
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 5: jazzed about these things and wanting to help, and so

553
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 5: just being able to contribute to that in any way

554
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 5: has been really I'm really grateful for that opportunity.

555
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 3: And you have the Junior Master of Herpetology program as well.

556
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 3: My child is a graduate of that program.

557
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, and it's really really great.

558
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 5: And so you know a lot of people, young young

559
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 5: learners want to take our adult classes, and we don't

560
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 5: let them unless they've already been certified as a Junior

561
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 5: Master herpetologist and already proven themselves. That's the only way

562
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 5: into those programs. And it's just been really great to

563
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 5: watch this community grow.

564
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 3: Now, how about the how about the rest of the

565
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 3: folks out there? Like what can the average person do

566
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 3: to help out amphibians and other herbs, say, in their backyard,

567
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 3: in their local area.

568
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 5: I love getting these types of questions and so just uh,

569
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 5: so so I don't forget. Let me just mention the

570
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 5: U r L backyard dot frogs need our help dot

571
00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 5: org uh, and that is a link to our frog

572
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 5: But it queues up just the articles I've collected over

573
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 5: the years or written about how to make your yard

574
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:09,839
Speaker 5: more amphibian friendly. There's several articles in there about how

575
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:13,319
Speaker 5: to build a wetland if you're interested. But there's lots

576
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:15,800
Speaker 5: of different things what to do if you get frogs

577
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 5: in your pool. You know, some strong arguments for leaving

578
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:22,880
Speaker 5: leaf litter in certain areas of your yard. You know

579
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:24,799
Speaker 5: that kind of stuff. But it really goes through and

580
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:26,280
Speaker 5: I've been collecting.

581
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:27,959
Speaker 4: That stuff for like ten or fifteen years by now.

582
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 3: Awesome, Right now, we've already mentioned the Atlanta Science Festival,

583
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 3: which when this episode comes out, that will be ongoing.

584
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:37,799
Speaker 3: So if you are in the Atlanta area, planned to

585
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 3: be in the Atlanta area during its a couple of

586
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,839
Speaker 3: weeks run, you know, look that up. But what else

587
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 3: is on the horizon for the Amphibian Foundation here?

588
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 4: Thank you?

589
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, we like the Atlanta Science Festival is a big

590
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:56,800
Speaker 5: deal for us. We do about usually do four events

591
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 5: each Science Festival and the last day of The festival

592
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 5: is the Expo in Piedmont Park and we'll be there

593
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 5: so people can come and see us if they if.

594
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 4: They want uh.

595
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 5: And then you know, we're going to be launching into

596
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:13,719
Speaker 5: our next semester of our Conservation Research Bridge program, So

597
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,439
Speaker 5: that's our gap year program where we have students come

598
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 5: from all over the country to work hands on you know,

599
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,280
Speaker 5: like I mentioned, this is an all hands on deck situation,

600
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,719
Speaker 5: but what we do is very unique and so it

601
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 5: really resonates very strongly with a small number of people

602
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:33,400
Speaker 5: around the country who come and spend one to three semesters,

603
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:35,839
Speaker 5: Like we just get right into the swamps. So it's

604
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:40,359
Speaker 5: really ideal for certain people. And so that's that's going

605
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 5: to get us occupied right right now. We're also surveying

606
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:48,239
Speaker 5: for gopher frog eggs, which is George's rarest frog, and

607
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 5: so they should be breeding any moment now. As soon

608
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 5: as we can detect some eggs, we'll bring them back

609
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 5: to head start them here at the Amphibian Foundation, which

610
00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 5: means get them through their sensitive larval stage, and then

611
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:04,400
Speaker 5: we release babygopher frogs. That's usually in the middle of

612
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:09,680
Speaker 5: the summer. We're releasing baby gopher frogs nice. It's good stuff.

613
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:12,760
Speaker 5: If you like that kind of thing, it's great.

614
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:17,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, sounds like a hoot.

615
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 4: Is it is a hoot.

616
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 5: Guys are welcome to come along for a frog release

617
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 5: if you'd like.

618
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:27,359
Speaker 3: All right, Mark, well, thanks for coming on the show

619
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:28,280
Speaker 3: and chatting with us.

620
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 4: Oh, thank you. It was my pleasure to be here.

621
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 4: Thanks guys.

622
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 2: All right, well, thanks again to Mark Mandika for taking

623
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:39,400
Speaker 2: time to chat with us here on Stuff to Blow

624
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 2: Your Mind. If you want to learn more about the

625
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 2: Amphibian Foundation, subscribe to the Amphibian Foundation newsletter, or learn

626
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:49,719
Speaker 2: about ways to help them out, such as donation or volunteering,

627
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:52,919
Speaker 2: go to Amphibianfoundation dot org.

628
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 3: Just a reminder that Stuff to Blow Your Mind is

629
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:59,880
Speaker 3: primarily a science and culture podcast, with core episodes on

630
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 3: Tuesdays and Thursdays. In the Stuff to Blow your Mind

631
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 3: podcast feed, on Wednesdays we have a short form episode,

632
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:09,359
Speaker 3: and on Fridays we set aside most serious concerns to

633
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:13,040
Speaker 3: just talk about a weird film on Weird House Cinema.

634
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,759
Speaker 3: You can follow our Weird House Cinema activities on letterboxed.

635
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,359
Speaker 3: Our user name there is weird House. If you want

636
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:22,440
Speaker 3: to follow Stuff to Blow your Mind proper well. There

637
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:24,880
Speaker 3: are several different ways to do that on social media,

638
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 3: but we are also on Instagram STBYM podcast and that's

639
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 3: a great place to follow us and keep up with

640
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 3: what we are up to. Thanks as always to the

641
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:37,360
Speaker 3: excellent JJ Possway for producing the show, and if you

642
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:39,239
Speaker 3: want to reach out to us, if you want to

643
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 3: suggest topics for the future, if you want to suggest

644
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:45,439
Speaker 3: interview guests, and so forth, you can reach us via

645
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:53,240
Speaker 3: email at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com.

646
00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

647
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:03,640
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648
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