WEBVTT - A Therapy Session with Dr. Dan Siegel

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<v Speaker 1>Okay. Hi. Oh hello Catherine, Hello Chelsea. Yeah, good afternoon, everybody,

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<v Speaker 1>Good morning. We have some very exciting news, Dear Chelsea.

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<v Speaker 1>The podcast you are currently listening to has been named

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<v Speaker 1>a Webby Honoree in the podcast general series Advice and

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<v Speaker 1>how To category. Who congratulations, congratulations Chelsea. Oh my god.

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<v Speaker 1>Earning the distinction of Webby Honoree, that's what it's called,

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<v Speaker 1>as recognized by the International Academy of Digital Arts and Sciences,

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<v Speaker 1>is a significant achievement, granted to only the top twenty

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<v Speaker 1>of more than fourteen thousand, three hundred projects submitted in

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<v Speaker 1>this year's petition. So that is a very exciting little award.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh my god, how I love it. I love getting

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<v Speaker 1>nominated for awards. It's a whole new thing for me. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, it's just it's a little bit of recognition.

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<v Speaker 1>It's kind of fun. I love an atta boy like

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<v Speaker 1>I love a pat on the back. So this is

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<v Speaker 1>just a wonderful way to get one of those. Yes, Yes,

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<v Speaker 1>I agree, thank you very much. Yes, what else, Katherine, Well,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm wearing my Dear Chelsea hat ches in. You guys

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<v Speaker 1>are Dear Chelsea. Merch is in. It's available on my

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<v Speaker 1>website at Chelsea Handler dot com. It's very exciting. Oh

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<v Speaker 1>I should also tell you this. So the very first

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<v Speaker 1>day that I wore my Dear Chelsea Lemon yellow T shirt,

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<v Speaker 1>I went for a hike. My husband and I were

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<v Speaker 1>hiking in Griffith Park and a woman came up to

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<v Speaker 1>me and she pointed at my shirt and she goes,

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<v Speaker 1>I have that in my ears right now. And I

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<v Speaker 1>was really confused. And then my husband was like, Katherine,

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<v Speaker 1>she said, she's listening to you, like this podcast right now.

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<v Speaker 1>It's on your shirt. And I was like, oh, that's cute.

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<v Speaker 1>It was very wonder why you were so confused. I was, well,

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<v Speaker 1>it was like the ear in. It was like, that's

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<v Speaker 1>in my ears right now. I was like, wait, I

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<v Speaker 1>don't understand. But she had earbuds in and it was

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<v Speaker 1>a whole thing. But it was very cute, and I

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<v Speaker 1>was cute. I love that people listen to it. I

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<v Speaker 1>always forget, you know, you leave here and then you

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<v Speaker 1>get that you like, even did a podcast. So it's

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<v Speaker 1>nice when people say, oh my god, I love your podcast,

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<v Speaker 1>or I I've called in, or I've written in. Somebody

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<v Speaker 1>tried to hand me their submission the other day, So

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<v Speaker 1>I gotta get that to you as soon as possible,

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<v Speaker 1>just so everybody knows. Katherine handles the submissions and there,

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<v Speaker 1>how do you submit again, Dear Chelsea Project at gmail

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<v Speaker 1>dot com. Don't send it to Dear Chelsea. That's a

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<v Speaker 1>very sweet woman who's not us and who's obviously annoyed

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<v Speaker 1>by getting all of our emails. But she's like, I

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<v Speaker 1>feel bad. I want to make sure that these get

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<v Speaker 1>to you. So Dear Chelsea Project at gmail dot com,

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<v Speaker 1>And yeah, I read every single one that comes in

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<v Speaker 1>so and actually I have received several emails about our

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<v Speaker 1>Amy Schumer episode and there was one specific little thing

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<v Speaker 1>that was mentioned on the episode that we wanted a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of people wanted to make sure that we corrected,

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<v Speaker 1>which you know, we're here to learn to so I

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<v Speaker 1>think that's great, Ashley says, Dear Chelsea. I love, love

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<v Speaker 1>love your show. You have the topics you cover, It

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<v Speaker 1>helps so many people, and I love listening every week.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm writing to respectfully ask you for a correction to

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<v Speaker 1>your episode with Amy Schumer. It was educational and vulnerable,

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<v Speaker 1>and your conversation on the autistic community and later in

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<v Speaker 1>life diagnoses will change people's lives for the better. In

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<v Speaker 1>the episode, it was mentioned that autism can't be diagnosed

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<v Speaker 1>until around age five or six, which is incorrect. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>a speech and language pathologist who works with children aged

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<v Speaker 1>two to fourteen, many of whom are artistic. You can

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<v Speaker 1>seek diagnosis as early as age two. Early intervention is

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<v Speaker 1>key for many families, and often the stigma of autism

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<v Speaker 1>keeps families from getting a diagnosis until much later. My

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<v Speaker 1>goal in my practice is always to put children in

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<v Speaker 1>their families first, and with all the advocacy Amy does,

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<v Speaker 1>I want everyone to be armed with the most accurate

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<v Speaker 1>information possible. Thanks for your consideration, Ashley. God damn it, Amy,

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<v Speaker 1>God damn it, Amy. Why she always getting me in trouble?

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<v Speaker 1>On I'm getting people in trouble, and then I've had

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<v Speaker 1>Amy Schumer. Okay, so you can get diagnosis early. As

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<v Speaker 1>to thank you for your letter, thank you for your correction.

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<v Speaker 1>We appreciate that, and yes, we want to get out

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<v Speaker 1>accurate information to everybody. Absolutely, early intervention, Guys, early intervention.

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<v Speaker 1>I wish somebody would have intervened with me earlier than

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<v Speaker 1>they did, because I really just I could have used

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<v Speaker 1>some sort of diagnosis when I was younger. I don't

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<v Speaker 1>know what my diagnosis is, but I could have used

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<v Speaker 1>some help. I feel like we're as we have expanding

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<v Speaker 1>conversations about everything in the public domain. There are so

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<v Speaker 1>many things and I'm like, oh, wait, I have this.

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<v Speaker 1>I have that, Like it's because of podcasts and one

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<v Speaker 1>in particular that I was like, Oh, I have anxiety.

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<v Speaker 1>That's what that feeling is. Yeah, we're actually knowing the

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<v Speaker 1>difference between anxiety and like, you know, anxiety encompasses so

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<v Speaker 1>many different things, like being annoyed with people is anxiety.

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<v Speaker 1>I always had anxieties like oh, social anxiety and inability

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<v Speaker 1>to so chalize or perform or go out or stage

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<v Speaker 1>fright like that kind of thing. And it's actually much

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<v Speaker 1>more nuanced than that. There is a whole spectrum of

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<v Speaker 1>anxiety that you can suffer from, and it can present

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<v Speaker 1>in many different ways in different people. So, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>eating his anxiety. Sometimes. Doing drugs is anxiety sometimes, or

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<v Speaker 1>a celebration can be either. Chelsea, do you have any

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<v Speaker 1>tour dates that you want to come? Yes. I added

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<v Speaker 1>a show in Saratoga Saratoga Mountain Winery. I added a

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<v Speaker 1>second show in Nashville, Nashville is where I am shooting

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<v Speaker 1>my next special, so there will be two shows now

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<v Speaker 1>in Nashville. And I am also performing at the Just

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<v Speaker 1>for Laughs Comedy Festival in Montreal. Everyone has been asking

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<v Speaker 1>for Montreal dates to all of my Canadian friends. That

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<v Speaker 1>is July, i will be at the Montreal Just for Laughs.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm hosting a gala, and then I also have another

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<v Speaker 1>can I have two dates in Vancouver Friday August twelve

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<v Speaker 1>to shows in Vancouver and then Saturday August and Sunday

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<v Speaker 1>August fourteen. Tickets are available for Calgary in Alberta, and

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<v Speaker 1>I'm also adding a show Saturday October eight in Niagara Falls,

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<v Speaker 1>which is Ontario. So those are my Canadian dates coming up.

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<v Speaker 1>And then this week I'm starting back on tour. So

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<v Speaker 1>Thursday April I'm in Cedar Rapids, then I'm in Des

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<v Speaker 1>Moines and I'm coming to Omaha, Nebraska on Saturday night.

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<v Speaker 1>So and then the week after that is Louisville, Kentucky. St.

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<v Speaker 1>Louis Missouri and two shows in Kansas City. So check

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<v Speaker 1>Chelsea Handler dot com for your tickets. I'm back on tour.

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<v Speaker 1>Vaccinated in Horny. Let's get down to business. It's just great.

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<v Speaker 1>It's just great. I'm just back from Vegas, so I'm

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<v Speaker 1>looking a little peckish or peaked, one of those words

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<v Speaker 1>they both apply. Actually, I'm hungry and tired. We went

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<v Speaker 1>to Whistler to celebrate my friend and his birthday. That

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<v Speaker 1>was Saturday. A very fun Sunday night was the Grammys

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<v Speaker 1>in Vegas, which we flew out to with all of

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<v Speaker 1>our friends from Whistler. Then we celebrated Joe's birthday. After

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<v Speaker 1>the Grammys. We had a after party for him with

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<v Speaker 1>DJ terb his one of his besties, Deejaying, and it

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<v Speaker 1>was so much fun. And then we did it again Monday,

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<v Speaker 1>and then we did it again Tuesday, and we had

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<v Speaker 1>activities like dune bugging in the desert for all of

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<v Speaker 1>our guests. We had about seventy people there. So I

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<v Speaker 1>am fresh off of a flight from Vegas. I just landed.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm here today and talking abounding to talk to my

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<v Speaker 1>to our very special guest for our final episode, which

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<v Speaker 1>is our season finale of season two. We'll be back shortly.

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<v Speaker 1>We won't take that long of a break. But our

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<v Speaker 1>finale guest is none other than my psychiatrist, Dr. Dan Siegel,

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<v Speaker 1>it's very exciting. It's very exciting to have him on,

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<v Speaker 1>and he's going to help us with a couple of

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<v Speaker 1>sort of trickier questions that I've had because I obviously

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<v Speaker 1>to explain to every all of my listeners. Obviously I

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<v Speaker 1>can help with many things, and I think I know

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<v Speaker 1>a lot about a lot of things, and I also

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<v Speaker 1>know that I don't know a lot about some important things.

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<v Speaker 1>So when there is heavier advice to be given where

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<v Speaker 1>we do need a professional, I obviously tried to implement

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<v Speaker 1>one every few episodes so we can catch up with

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<v Speaker 1>the callers who I was not feeling confident enough or

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<v Speaker 1>you weren't feeling confident enough to help. By the way,

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<v Speaker 1>I've got so many compliments on you this weekend. My

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<v Speaker 1>sister was also saying, I was on the phone with

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<v Speaker 1>her last night just how much she loves your voice

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<v Speaker 1>and be how well rounded you are. She was like, god,

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<v Speaker 1>Katherine just knows a little bit about everything. And I

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<v Speaker 1>was like, I know, she's like a general practitioner. That's

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<v Speaker 1>so great. I mean, I guess I told her finances

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<v Speaker 1>your specialty, because that's where you really come a love.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh my gosh, that would actually make everyone in my family.

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<v Speaker 1>My dad has a tax attorneys that would make him

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<v Speaker 1>laugh very very hard. But oh that's so great. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, I love to research. I love to fall

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<v Speaker 1>down an internet rabbit hole. So it's finally paying off.

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<v Speaker 1>It really is. Now that you've got this Emmy Webby Award.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean I slept and said, Emmy, we can get Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>that's for us. Excellent, excellent. Well shall we welcome Dr Dan?

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<v Speaker 1>I know Dr Dan during the course of this interview

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<v Speaker 1>will mention several of his books, but do we want

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<v Speaker 1>to also maybe at the end we can mention all

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<v Speaker 1>the books because his books are helpful, and I would

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<v Speaker 1>like to just be on the record and say there

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<v Speaker 1>are a lot of them are parenting books. And I've

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<v Speaker 1>read three parenting books from him, So you are an

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<v Speaker 1>expert in parenting. Well, I mean it was more for

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<v Speaker 1>Burton Bernie's and we know how that turned out. So

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, I don't know if you could apply parenting

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<v Speaker 1>books to animals, but that's what I was after. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>I think they can be as sassy as teenagers. Like

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<v Speaker 1>Mimsy isn't a very teenagers stage right now. She just

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<v Speaker 1>plants her feet when she doesn't want to go home

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<v Speaker 1>on a walk. Yeah, Bernie's does that all the time.

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<v Speaker 1>She Bernie's won't step on certain materials, like, she doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>like certain surfaces. So she's stops and then you have

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<v Speaker 1>to basically choke her to pull her over it. She

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't like sand, she doesn't like cement. That's just like

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<v Speaker 1>anything that's dirty. Really, Yeah, yeah, exactly. I don't know

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<v Speaker 1>where she got that from. Must be, it must be.

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<v Speaker 1>We'll be right back. So today's guest it has a

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<v Speaker 1>medical degree from Harvard. He's a clinical professor of psychiatry

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<v Speaker 1>at the U c l A School of Medicine and

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<v Speaker 1>the founding co director of the Mindful Awareness Research Center

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<v Speaker 1>at U c l A. He is a multiple time

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<v Speaker 1>New York Times best selling author, a neuropsychiatrist and interpersonal neurobiologist,

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<v Speaker 1>Dr Dan Siegel. Oh my god, look who it is? Hi?

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<v Speaker 1>How are you? Long time? You know? Ceci? I know?

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<v Speaker 1>How are you you? I am very well. This is

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<v Speaker 1>my co host Catherine, who I think he's spoken to. Hi,

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<v Speaker 1>cats Aine, nice to see you. Like Wise, likewise, Dan

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<v Speaker 1>uses a standing desk, Katherine, So if his motion is

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<v Speaker 1>giving you motion sickness, let him know. Yeah, I can

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<v Speaker 1>stop if you want. It's I like walking, but if

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<v Speaker 1>you want me to stop, I can stop. No, that's fine.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm fine with it. Although, Katherine, are you okay with it?

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<v Speaker 1>I think I'm okay with it. If I do get

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<v Speaker 1>motion sickness, I will let you know. I love the

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<v Speaker 1>idea of getting motion signess from someone else's motion. What

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<v Speaker 1>does an interpersonal neurobiologists mean? Dan? You know? Interpersonal neurobiology

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<v Speaker 1>is a phrase for a framework that combines all different

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<v Speaker 1>ways of knowing, like the different fields of science or

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<v Speaker 1>studies of meditation what are called contemplative insights with indigenous

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<v Speaker 1>practices indigenous wisdom, and we bring it all together and say,

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<v Speaker 1>if there's one reality, can everybody join in the tent

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<v Speaker 1>and have a conversation that's collaborative so we can see

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<v Speaker 1>the wisdom from all these different points of view. Oh, interesting,

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<v Speaker 1>is that a new field? Yeah, it's a new framework.

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<v Speaker 1>I introduced it in so it's relatively new compared to

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<v Speaker 1>some other things. But it's new, especially in the notion

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<v Speaker 1>that it's not trying to replace an existing point of view.

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<v Speaker 1>It's trying to say, there's so many views from thousands

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<v Speaker 1>of years ago or from dozens of years ago, and

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<v Speaker 1>if they're all exploring the nature of truth, could we

0:12:29.800 --> 0:12:32.560
<v Speaker 1>see if they all fit together somehow? There's a common

0:12:32.600 --> 0:12:37.240
<v Speaker 1>ground that EO. Wilson, the writer calls concilience. So we

0:12:37.280 --> 0:12:41.720
<v Speaker 1>look for the concilience or common ground across independent pursuits

0:12:41.760 --> 0:12:46.480
<v Speaker 1>of knowledge. Oh wow, I'm we're really leveling up this episode,

0:12:46.520 --> 0:12:50.360
<v Speaker 1>Catherine buckle In. So that relates to actually one of

0:12:50.360 --> 0:12:52.240
<v Speaker 1>the questions that I want to ask you, but I'll

0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:55.000
<v Speaker 1>ask that later, but it relates to it. Okay, great,

0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:57.600
<v Speaker 1>I love it. I love when you're ask me questions.

0:12:57.760 --> 0:13:00.120
<v Speaker 1>It's so great to see you, I gotta say, Jesse. Oh,

0:13:00.200 --> 0:13:02.240
<v Speaker 1>it's always good to see you, Always good to see you.

0:13:02.320 --> 0:13:05.120
<v Speaker 1>I I spoke to you a few months ago because

0:13:05.120 --> 0:13:07.720
<v Speaker 1>I'm in a new relationship and about the adjustment to

0:13:07.760 --> 0:13:10.400
<v Speaker 1>be in a relationship with somebody, to spend so much

0:13:10.440 --> 0:13:12.520
<v Speaker 1>time with somebody when I'm so used to being so

0:13:12.600 --> 0:13:15.600
<v Speaker 1>kind of independent and alone. And I wanted to mention

0:13:15.640 --> 0:13:18.320
<v Speaker 1>because you and I have had conversation once. And I

0:13:18.320 --> 0:13:22.520
<v Speaker 1>can say this because it's it's private until I publicize it,

0:13:23.840 --> 0:13:27.000
<v Speaker 1>so I'll say it. But we talked about I remember

0:13:27.040 --> 0:13:28.760
<v Speaker 1>there was a period of time where I was telling

0:13:28.760 --> 0:13:30.640
<v Speaker 1>you that I just I was like, I just want

0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:32.480
<v Speaker 1>to go to bed at like eight o'clock every night.

0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:34.280
<v Speaker 1>You know, I'm not in the mood to hang out.

0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:36.240
<v Speaker 1>I just want to be in bed all the time.

0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:38.240
<v Speaker 1>And I was asking you, do you think I'm depressed?

0:13:38.720 --> 0:13:42.439
<v Speaker 1>And I was single at the time, and you said, saliently,

0:13:42.600 --> 0:13:44.600
<v Speaker 1>I think that if someone were in your life that

0:13:44.640 --> 0:13:46.480
<v Speaker 1>you were excited about, you wouldn't want to go to

0:13:46.520 --> 0:13:51.160
<v Speaker 1>bed at seven or eight o'clock. And it's I still

0:13:51.200 --> 0:13:53.559
<v Speaker 1>like to go to bed at seven or eight o'clock.

0:13:54.200 --> 0:13:56.560
<v Speaker 1>I mean, there are times when I can't, where of

0:13:56.600 --> 0:13:58.920
<v Speaker 1>course I don't because he's a night owl, and we

0:13:59.080 --> 0:14:02.200
<v Speaker 1>compromise a lot. But the other night, I remember we

0:14:02.280 --> 0:14:05.280
<v Speaker 1>came home. He was taping two of his shows at

0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:07.800
<v Speaker 1>the Forum in l A, his Netflix special, so they

0:14:07.800 --> 0:14:09.600
<v Speaker 1>were big nights out and we were out soil one

0:14:09.640 --> 0:14:11.440
<v Speaker 1>in the morning that we were outstill five in the morning.

0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:13.319
<v Speaker 1>And on the Sunday we were planning to go to

0:14:13.360 --> 0:14:15.400
<v Speaker 1>all these Oscar parties and I woke up Sunday I'm like,

0:14:15.440 --> 0:14:19.480
<v Speaker 1>I'm done. I can't. I can't socialize anymore. And that night,

0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:22.080
<v Speaker 1>and you know, Joe wakes up. My boyfriend has more

0:14:22.200 --> 0:14:25.280
<v Speaker 1>energy than a battery pack. I mean, it is unbelievable

0:14:25.320 --> 0:14:27.640
<v Speaker 1>what this guy is willing to do all day long

0:14:28.040 --> 0:14:30.520
<v Speaker 1>on no sleep. It's just crazy. I've never seen any

0:14:30.600 --> 0:14:35.480
<v Speaker 1>human being operate like this. He's got different DNA. So anyway,

0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:37.600
<v Speaker 1>that night, he was like going somewhere. I wanted to

0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:38.960
<v Speaker 1>go to dinner with his family, and I was like,

0:14:39.000 --> 0:14:40.720
<v Speaker 1>I really just want to go to bed at seven

0:14:40.800 --> 0:14:43.240
<v Speaker 1>or eight o'clock. And I remember the conversation you and

0:14:43.280 --> 0:14:45.600
<v Speaker 1>I had and I thought, oh, what does this mean

0:14:45.680 --> 0:14:48.120
<v Speaker 1>that I still want this? Because I have this kind

0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:51.120
<v Speaker 1>of element now to my personality where I want to

0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:53.800
<v Speaker 1>hunker down, you know, where I want to get in

0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:56.960
<v Speaker 1>bed and watch TV and just build myself a little nest.

0:14:57.520 --> 0:15:00.680
<v Speaker 1>And I know when you do that often or too much,

0:15:00.960 --> 0:15:04.080
<v Speaker 1>it becomes it does become a pattern where it feels

0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:08.840
<v Speaker 1>like you are depressed. Well, now, so what's the part

0:15:08.880 --> 0:15:11.680
<v Speaker 1>where you're calling it depression? Well, I think when I

0:15:11.720 --> 0:15:14.040
<v Speaker 1>was doing it consistently. Now I do it, you know,

0:15:14.080 --> 0:15:16.640
<v Speaker 1>on a Sunday night, you know, or you know, I

0:15:16.680 --> 0:15:20.520
<v Speaker 1>don't do it as frequently, so it doesn't feel as

0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:22.640
<v Speaker 1>like bad. Because when you do it consistently, and I

0:15:22.640 --> 0:15:26.360
<v Speaker 1>think it was also maybe a product of COVID as well,

0:15:26.360 --> 0:15:28.360
<v Speaker 1>that I was just like, there's nothing going on. It's

0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:30.880
<v Speaker 1>just easier to get stoned and you know, get into

0:15:30.880 --> 0:15:33.440
<v Speaker 1>bed and whatever. But it was becoming a pattern that

0:15:33.480 --> 0:15:36.240
<v Speaker 1>I didn't like about myself. It just didn't feel I

0:15:36.240 --> 0:15:38.920
<v Speaker 1>didn't feel alive. I felt like I was slightly depressed.

0:15:38.920 --> 0:15:41.680
<v Speaker 1>And I've never really dealt with any depression to the

0:15:41.760 --> 0:15:44.240
<v Speaker 1>level where I had to really like take anything for it.

0:15:44.400 --> 0:15:46.240
<v Speaker 1>Or I don't know, I guess I I don't know

0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:48.800
<v Speaker 1>if it's a question or just an observation, but I

0:15:48.840 --> 0:15:50.680
<v Speaker 1>don't know. What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, you were,

0:15:50.680 --> 0:15:53.480
<v Speaker 1>You're raising a couple of really important issues. I mean, one,

0:15:53.600 --> 0:15:57.240
<v Speaker 1>when you use the word depression, we should realize that

0:15:57.360 --> 0:16:01.400
<v Speaker 1>there are people in the world who who have really

0:16:01.440 --> 0:16:04.600
<v Speaker 1>serious ways where they get the experience of you know,

0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:08.280
<v Speaker 1>maybe going to bed early or even having a hard

0:16:08.280 --> 0:16:10.760
<v Speaker 1>time falling asleep. It can go either way. Um their

0:16:10.760 --> 0:16:13.720
<v Speaker 1>sleep can be interrupted, they can get up early, or

0:16:13.760 --> 0:16:17.000
<v Speaker 1>they can sleep really a long time. So sleep is

0:16:17.080 --> 0:16:19.960
<v Speaker 1>a big issue to talk about with this thing called

0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:24.320
<v Speaker 1>major depression. But in addition, you know, they have low energy.

0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:28.320
<v Speaker 1>They have something called an hedonia, which means and is

0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:32.480
<v Speaker 1>without hedonia's pleasure, So they don't get pleasure in things

0:16:32.520 --> 0:16:35.040
<v Speaker 1>that used to give them pleasure. And also they don't

0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:39.360
<v Speaker 1>get pleasure in anticipating doing something fun, so they kind

0:16:39.360 --> 0:16:43.200
<v Speaker 1>of lose their jouis d viv their their their joy

0:16:43.240 --> 0:16:46.280
<v Speaker 1>of living. It kind of goes away. They start thinking

0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:49.320
<v Speaker 1>kind of really down thoughts like I'm no good, I'm

0:16:49.360 --> 0:16:52.680
<v Speaker 1>guilty of things that I'm not even guilty of, you know,

0:16:53.160 --> 0:16:55.960
<v Speaker 1>I'm a horrible person, and there's no future for me,

0:16:56.000 --> 0:16:58.880
<v Speaker 1>there's no hope, and then I start feeling helpless. So

0:16:59.760 --> 0:17:01.600
<v Speaker 1>for any of us who have worked on a suicide

0:17:01.640 --> 0:17:05.080
<v Speaker 1>prevention service, when some of these serious depression calls you,

0:17:05.080 --> 0:17:07.040
<v Speaker 1>you can feel it in the tone of their voice

0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:11.320
<v Speaker 1>is kind of like flat and there's a huge despair

0:17:11.440 --> 0:17:14.800
<v Speaker 1>there that makes suicide a serious risk. So if anyone's

0:17:14.840 --> 0:17:17.720
<v Speaker 1>hearing us and your experience of those, please reach out

0:17:17.760 --> 0:17:21.119
<v Speaker 1>for help to a mental health professional. If suicide is

0:17:21.160 --> 0:17:23.960
<v Speaker 1>something you're thinking about, you know, please reach out to

0:17:24.000 --> 0:17:27.119
<v Speaker 1>a suicide prevention service because the great news about depression

0:17:27.880 --> 0:17:31.720
<v Speaker 1>is that it's treatable, and even though you may feel hopeless,

0:17:32.480 --> 0:17:35.960
<v Speaker 1>there's hope right around the corner. And part of it

0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:38.760
<v Speaker 1>actually is the connection we talked about. So when I

0:17:38.760 --> 0:17:41.360
<v Speaker 1>said to you, I think if you had a connection

0:17:41.359 --> 0:17:43.719
<v Speaker 1>with someone that matters to you in your life, it

0:17:43.760 --> 0:17:45.520
<v Speaker 1>wasn't that I thought you were depressed. But some people

0:17:45.560 --> 0:17:49.640
<v Speaker 1>do get depressed because they have no connection, and it's

0:17:49.720 --> 0:17:54.800
<v Speaker 1>really loneliness, deep deep loneliness, and our community are larger

0:17:54.880 --> 0:17:59.360
<v Speaker 1>society now doesn't really support people having connections with each other.

0:17:59.440 --> 0:18:02.520
<v Speaker 1>You know. The the current US Surgeon General wrote a

0:18:02.560 --> 0:18:06.959
<v Speaker 1>beautiful book called Together about this sad epidemic we have

0:18:07.400 --> 0:18:09.880
<v Speaker 1>where we have so much material wealth, but we don't

0:18:09.920 --> 0:18:13.480
<v Speaker 1>have much relational wealth. People are so isolated from each other,

0:18:14.119 --> 0:18:17.200
<v Speaker 1>so you know, that's that's a separate sort of thing.

0:18:17.280 --> 0:18:22.720
<v Speaker 1>So being lonely can make you feel horrible and despairing,

0:18:22.880 --> 0:18:25.440
<v Speaker 1>but it might not be called major depression, but it

0:18:25.520 --> 0:18:28.560
<v Speaker 1>still feels terrible, and we need to help people with that.

0:18:29.200 --> 0:18:31.760
<v Speaker 1>And then there's you know, just what's called dysphoria, which

0:18:31.760 --> 0:18:34.399
<v Speaker 1>is where you just feel yucky about your life. This

0:18:34.680 --> 0:18:37.639
<v Speaker 1>is bad for is how you feel. And I'm dysphoric,

0:18:37.800 --> 0:18:40.560
<v Speaker 1>you know, And I think anyone who reads the news

0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:43.600
<v Speaker 1>can get dysphoric because we're in a rough place in

0:18:43.600 --> 0:18:46.680
<v Speaker 1>the world now, so our our body is going to

0:18:46.760 --> 0:18:50.480
<v Speaker 1>respond emotionally, and emotion, you know, is basically three things

0:18:50.520 --> 0:18:56.320
<v Speaker 1>woven together. It's relationships, the body's response, and meaning. Those

0:18:56.320 --> 0:18:59.119
<v Speaker 1>three things are really what emotion is. So if someone says, oh,

0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:02.520
<v Speaker 1>my emotion it is horrible, I feel down. What's going

0:19:02.560 --> 0:19:06.200
<v Speaker 1>on with the world. Yeah, let's let's name it so

0:19:06.240 --> 0:19:08.520
<v Speaker 1>we can frame it like in a picture frame and

0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:12.240
<v Speaker 1>say that's what it is. Let's try to participate, you know,

0:19:12.280 --> 0:19:15.280
<v Speaker 1>in social activism. Let's try to do something to really

0:19:15.359 --> 0:19:18.560
<v Speaker 1>feel empowered, to actually have what's called agency, or I

0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:20.960
<v Speaker 1>can be an agent of action to do something. So

0:19:21.640 --> 0:19:24.919
<v Speaker 1>a lot of people these days are feeling hopeless, and

0:19:25.160 --> 0:19:29.160
<v Speaker 1>they can call it depressed, but that gets people mixed

0:19:29.240 --> 0:19:33.320
<v Speaker 1>up with a serious psychiatric condition rather than the world

0:19:33.359 --> 0:19:36.040
<v Speaker 1>is in a really tough spot. So we can feel hopeless,

0:19:36.119 --> 0:19:38.760
<v Speaker 1>Let's talk to each other about it, because in working

0:19:39.000 --> 0:19:42.280
<v Speaker 1>collectively we can actually move through that to what Joanna Macy,

0:19:42.320 --> 0:19:46.280
<v Speaker 1>a beautiful writer, calls active hope. So this is a

0:19:46.280 --> 0:19:48.800
<v Speaker 1>way you can take that word depression and see it

0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:52.639
<v Speaker 1>as either a serious disorder that sometimes these medications or

0:19:52.680 --> 0:19:57.000
<v Speaker 1>other treatments, or a more moderate condition where you know

0:19:57.280 --> 0:20:00.800
<v Speaker 1>psychotherapy can be helpful, or a way we're using that

0:20:00.880 --> 0:20:05.359
<v Speaker 1>word to describe loneliness and then having a change in

0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:08.600
<v Speaker 1>in your participation in life. You know, like people in

0:20:08.680 --> 0:20:11.800
<v Speaker 1>a a for example, they get an instant community through

0:20:12.320 --> 0:20:15.720
<v Speaker 1>alcoholics anonymous meetings, and their feeling of a loneliness and

0:20:15.800 --> 0:20:18.000
<v Speaker 1>despair can dissolve a way because they go to a

0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:20.879
<v Speaker 1>regular meeting. Like a relative of mind is a recovering

0:20:21.320 --> 0:20:23.760
<v Speaker 1>alcoholic and he goes to meeting seven days a week,

0:20:24.280 --> 0:20:26.480
<v Speaker 1>and he's like the most unlnely person you want to

0:20:26.480 --> 0:20:29.399
<v Speaker 1>find because he's got a whole community every day that

0:20:29.520 --> 0:20:33.439
<v Speaker 1>he's actively a part of, very meaningful conversations. Yeah, I

0:20:33.520 --> 0:20:35.600
<v Speaker 1>like dysphoric. That's a good way to describe it, because

0:20:35.600 --> 0:20:38.000
<v Speaker 1>I think for many of us, especially with the events

0:20:38.000 --> 0:20:40.120
<v Speaker 1>of the last few years, it's it's like a low

0:20:40.240 --> 0:20:43.960
<v Speaker 1>level of dysphoria, you know, it's and it can feel

0:20:44.280 --> 0:20:47.600
<v Speaker 1>it feels maybe like depression because it's not a common feeling.

0:20:47.840 --> 0:20:50.320
<v Speaker 1>I know for me, I've never felt that kind of

0:20:50.440 --> 0:20:53.359
<v Speaker 1>listlessness where you're just like it's on we You're just

0:20:53.400 --> 0:20:55.480
<v Speaker 1>like I don't I can't get it up for anything.

0:20:55.560 --> 0:20:59.240
<v Speaker 1>I'm not that excited about anything that's happening. And I

0:20:59.359 --> 0:21:03.160
<v Speaker 1>definitely did remove reading the news from my repertoire after

0:21:03.200 --> 0:21:05.679
<v Speaker 1>a while because I just I read too many. It

0:21:05.760 --> 0:21:08.040
<v Speaker 1>was too obvious what it does to your brain. And

0:21:08.400 --> 0:21:11.199
<v Speaker 1>obviously now with the events, the most recent events in

0:21:11.359 --> 0:21:14.440
<v Speaker 1>Ukraine and Russia invading Ukraine, like that is something that

0:21:14.960 --> 0:21:17.840
<v Speaker 1>is a human being. It's our responsibility, I believe to

0:21:17.880 --> 0:21:20.439
<v Speaker 1>be up to speed and to understand and to be

0:21:20.480 --> 0:21:23.000
<v Speaker 1>actively involved in doing whatever it is that you may

0:21:23.000 --> 0:21:25.600
<v Speaker 1>be able to do, you know, whether that's donating money

0:21:25.720 --> 0:21:28.520
<v Speaker 1>or volunteering in some way, or just being mindful of

0:21:28.600 --> 0:21:31.080
<v Speaker 1>what's happening in the world and meditating on it every

0:21:31.160 --> 0:21:33.560
<v Speaker 1>day whatever, like small contribution you think is f I

0:21:33.560 --> 0:21:38.080
<v Speaker 1>fine for you, or big contribution, but the political aspect,

0:21:38.240 --> 0:21:41.359
<v Speaker 1>it's just too sickening. So I realized that that was

0:21:41.440 --> 0:21:45.960
<v Speaker 1>just contributing to my kind of darkness for a long

0:21:46.040 --> 0:21:50.720
<v Speaker 1>time and had to remove remove that. And it's kind

0:21:50.760 --> 0:21:55.120
<v Speaker 1>of like it's too bad, But it's an addiction. It's

0:21:55.160 --> 0:21:57.479
<v Speaker 1>just like anything else. It's just like being addicted to

0:21:57.720 --> 0:22:01.240
<v Speaker 1>TikTok or Instagram or mind ae scrolling through your phone

0:22:01.240 --> 0:22:04.119
<v Speaker 1>on social media. That is also an addiction, you know,

0:22:04.280 --> 0:22:05.840
<v Speaker 1>and I don't like. I don't like the way that

0:22:05.880 --> 0:22:10.760
<v Speaker 1>makes me feel either. And I'm very mindful of how perusing. Like.

0:22:10.840 --> 0:22:12.840
<v Speaker 1>You know, if I'm reading a book for two hours,

0:22:12.880 --> 0:22:15.040
<v Speaker 1>I come away with a much different feeling and much

0:22:15.280 --> 0:22:18.159
<v Speaker 1>greater self assured nous and self esteem than I do

0:22:18.240 --> 0:22:22.080
<v Speaker 1>when I'm wasting my time reading gossip or reading you know,

0:22:22.320 --> 0:22:25.280
<v Speaker 1>the internet, Like I I know now what the components

0:22:25.280 --> 0:22:28.240
<v Speaker 1>are that that triggered me or take me to kind

0:22:28.280 --> 0:22:31.760
<v Speaker 1>of a low energy, vibrational place exactly. Well, you know,

0:22:31.800 --> 0:22:37.280
<v Speaker 1>you're describing an awareness of how you're responding. Your body

0:22:37.359 --> 0:22:41.119
<v Speaker 1>is responding, your emotions are responding, and then in that

0:22:41.240 --> 0:22:46.399
<v Speaker 1>awareness you've beautifully created a space so you can say, well,

0:22:46.440 --> 0:22:50.880
<v Speaker 1>I'm kind of addicted to these social media things, and

0:22:50.960 --> 0:22:55.800
<v Speaker 1>I notice I feel really bad. Wow. When I take

0:22:55.800 --> 0:22:58.840
<v Speaker 1>the time to reflect on that, I can name it. Oh,

0:22:58.880 --> 0:23:00.600
<v Speaker 1>I feel bad when I do this social media. I

0:23:00.600 --> 0:23:02.240
<v Speaker 1>could frame it say Okay, what do I want to

0:23:02.240 --> 0:23:04.280
<v Speaker 1>do about it? I'm not going to do it as much.

0:23:04.520 --> 0:23:07.320
<v Speaker 1>That's an empowered mind you're talking about that you have,

0:23:07.480 --> 0:23:10.920
<v Speaker 1>and it's beautiful here you describe it and a lot

0:23:10.920 --> 0:23:14.600
<v Speaker 1>of people. And if you've seen the Social Dilemma documentary,

0:23:14.800 --> 0:23:19.800
<v Speaker 1>you know, the people who designed social media studied addiction,

0:23:20.400 --> 0:23:25.480
<v Speaker 1>and they intentionally create stuff on your screens to capture eyeballs,

0:23:25.520 --> 0:23:29.600
<v Speaker 1>to capture your time, focusing your attention on the thing

0:23:29.920 --> 0:23:35.400
<v Speaker 1>whatever it is. That wasn't by accident, it was by intent. Yeah.

0:23:35.440 --> 0:23:38.399
<v Speaker 1>But what's so astonishing is that everybody is aware of

0:23:38.440 --> 0:23:40.560
<v Speaker 1>that and has been made aware of that, yet we

0:23:40.640 --> 0:23:45.359
<v Speaker 1>still allow ourselves to operate like that, Like people like,

0:23:45.480 --> 0:23:48.520
<v Speaker 1>I know, it's crazy, d DA. It's like, well, wait,

0:23:48.960 --> 0:23:51.560
<v Speaker 1>you're just a cognitive wheel if you're just allowing people

0:23:51.600 --> 0:23:55.119
<v Speaker 1>to manipulate your brain, right. Well, And and part of

0:23:55.119 --> 0:24:01.199
<v Speaker 1>the reason why that addiction what's called interimate reinforcement. If

0:24:01.240 --> 0:24:03.720
<v Speaker 1>you keep on giving positive reinforcement over and over again,

0:24:03.840 --> 0:24:07.720
<v Speaker 1>after a while, it isn't so addicting. But intermittent reinforcement

0:24:07.800 --> 0:24:11.040
<v Speaker 1>where I give you a reward, then three next times

0:24:11.080 --> 0:24:13.119
<v Speaker 1>I don't. Then I give you one, then eight times

0:24:13.160 --> 0:24:15.680
<v Speaker 1>next I don't. Then the ninth time you get a reward,

0:24:15.840 --> 0:24:17.720
<v Speaker 1>you don't know what it's gonna happen, So it really

0:24:17.760 --> 0:24:21.200
<v Speaker 1>pulls you in. That's number one. The other thing which

0:24:21.240 --> 0:24:23.359
<v Speaker 1>is the other side of it is that our brains

0:24:23.400 --> 0:24:28.159
<v Speaker 1>are incredibly social. So there's all sorts of studies I

0:24:28.200 --> 0:24:30.120
<v Speaker 1>can tell you about, but but the summary of all

0:24:30.119 --> 0:24:33.760
<v Speaker 1>of them basically is we are social creatures. That's no surprise.

0:24:33.880 --> 0:24:35.680
<v Speaker 1>You didn't need to do brain studies to know that.

0:24:35.920 --> 0:24:39.560
<v Speaker 1>But when you look at the brain, areas involved in

0:24:39.840 --> 0:24:42.840
<v Speaker 1>feeling accepted. And I can tell you one study that

0:24:42.960 --> 0:24:47.360
<v Speaker 1>is so cool. When you're accepted, it activates this dopamine release.

0:24:47.840 --> 0:24:50.600
<v Speaker 1>It's very rewarding. That's what the dopammune is for. That

0:24:50.680 --> 0:24:52.199
<v Speaker 1>was good. Let me do it again, Let me do

0:24:52.240 --> 0:24:54.120
<v Speaker 1>it again, Let me do it again. But then when

0:24:54.160 --> 0:24:57.920
<v Speaker 1>you sense that you're not accepted, like you're not getting

0:24:57.960 --> 0:25:00.840
<v Speaker 1>as many hits on your social media or whatever like that,

0:25:01.880 --> 0:25:05.400
<v Speaker 1>the part of the brain, it's called the dorsal anterior singulate,

0:25:05.560 --> 0:25:08.679
<v Speaker 1>the part of the brain that registers social rejection. I

0:25:08.800 --> 0:25:11.879
<v Speaker 1>call it feeling of being inadequate, like I'm not fitting

0:25:11.880 --> 0:25:14.560
<v Speaker 1>in with the social group. It's exactly the same part

0:25:14.560 --> 0:25:16.399
<v Speaker 1>of the brain as if someone's stabbing you with a knife.

0:25:16.880 --> 0:25:19.400
<v Speaker 1>It hurts literally in the brain. It's the same part

0:25:19.400 --> 0:25:23.119
<v Speaker 1>of the brain social rejection, physical pain, same part of

0:25:23.119 --> 0:25:26.320
<v Speaker 1>the brain. Now when you take that, you go wow, Okay.

0:25:26.359 --> 0:25:28.359
<v Speaker 1>So you're always trying to see how can I fit in?

0:25:28.560 --> 0:25:30.359
<v Speaker 1>How do I compare? How do I fit in? How

0:25:30.359 --> 0:25:32.040
<v Speaker 1>do I compare? Do I belong? Do I not belong?

0:25:32.320 --> 0:25:35.200
<v Speaker 1>You know, so you're trying not to feel the pain.

0:25:35.680 --> 0:25:38.720
<v Speaker 1>You're trying to find membership in a in a modern

0:25:38.760 --> 0:25:41.879
<v Speaker 1>society as we talked about earlier, where we're so alone.

0:25:43.040 --> 0:25:46.080
<v Speaker 1>So you combine those two things, the intermittent reinforcement, all

0:25:46.080 --> 0:25:49.439
<v Speaker 1>the other ways they know about addiction with the social brain,

0:25:50.160 --> 0:25:54.040
<v Speaker 1>and it is a money maker because then you're gonna

0:25:54.080 --> 0:25:56.920
<v Speaker 1>get so much time. I think about fifteen years ago,

0:25:56.960 --> 0:26:00.640
<v Speaker 1>we didn't have these things, and now everyone's got them. Yeah,

0:26:00.680 --> 0:26:02.879
<v Speaker 1>I know people are like, oh, we're gonna keep our

0:26:02.960 --> 0:26:05.200
<v Speaker 1>kids off social media, We're gonna keep them off of iPads.

0:26:05.200 --> 0:26:07.680
<v Speaker 1>I'm not gonna get any of that until they're ten, twelve, fifteen.

0:26:07.720 --> 0:26:09.879
<v Speaker 1>I have a friend who waited for her kids to

0:26:09.880 --> 0:26:12.479
<v Speaker 1>get a phone until I think they were fourteen, And

0:26:12.520 --> 0:26:15.320
<v Speaker 1>it's like, what does that do? Because once you get it,

0:26:15.480 --> 0:26:18.480
<v Speaker 1>once you're in, you're in, right. I mean I even

0:26:18.480 --> 0:26:21.600
<v Speaker 1>see it in my two kids, you know, one was

0:26:22.240 --> 0:26:25.840
<v Speaker 1>he's old enough he's thirty two two not have had

0:26:25.880 --> 0:26:28.679
<v Speaker 1>that part of his adolescence. The others twenty eight and

0:26:28.800 --> 0:26:31.000
<v Speaker 1>she did. And you can even see in their different

0:26:31.160 --> 0:26:34.600
<v Speaker 1>groups of friends, you know, they deal with social media

0:26:34.640 --> 0:26:37.320
<v Speaker 1>in different ways, the younger one. More. I'll tell you

0:26:37.320 --> 0:26:39.400
<v Speaker 1>a sad thing. I was having lunch with Caroline, my

0:26:39.400 --> 0:26:41.840
<v Speaker 1>my wife. We were having a nice lunch in New York.

0:26:42.280 --> 0:26:45.000
<v Speaker 1>It was a great restaurant everything. Then these people come

0:26:45.040 --> 0:26:47.120
<v Speaker 1>sitting next to us with this one year old kid,

0:26:47.160 --> 0:26:48.879
<v Speaker 1>and it was really cute, and they were from another

0:26:48.920 --> 0:26:50.800
<v Speaker 1>country and it was her birthday, so it was the

0:26:50.840 --> 0:26:53.680
<v Speaker 1>birthday party. So they put out this presents, just one

0:26:53.720 --> 0:26:58.200
<v Speaker 1>sitting in the high chair. They handed her a smartphone.

0:27:00.280 --> 0:27:02.680
<v Speaker 1>For the rest of the so called birthday party lunch,

0:27:03.440 --> 0:27:07.439
<v Speaker 1>every one of them is on their separate device, and

0:27:07.520 --> 0:27:09.919
<v Speaker 1>Caroline and I are going, oh my god. So I

0:27:09.960 --> 0:27:11.600
<v Speaker 1>took out my phone to take a picture because I

0:27:11.640 --> 0:27:13.400
<v Speaker 1>wanted to put it up on social media. She goes,

0:27:13.400 --> 0:27:16.040
<v Speaker 1>don't do that, you know, which is right. I shouldn't

0:27:16.040 --> 0:27:18.040
<v Speaker 1>expose them, although I did get a picture where you

0:27:18.040 --> 0:27:20.520
<v Speaker 1>couldn't see identity, But anyway, you really should know better

0:27:20.560 --> 0:27:23.560
<v Speaker 1>than that. First. I mean, but I wanted to share

0:27:23.560 --> 0:27:27.119
<v Speaker 1>on social media how scary social media can be. Because

0:27:27.160 --> 0:27:30.120
<v Speaker 1>this kid, now, at one, you should have got up

0:27:30.160 --> 0:27:35.320
<v Speaker 1>to them and said, hey, these are my credentials and yeah,

0:27:35.640 --> 0:27:38.720
<v Speaker 1>and said listen, I am a doctor that specializes in this.

0:27:38.960 --> 0:27:42.919
<v Speaker 1>I have a degree from Harvard. I'm a neuropsychiatrist. Do

0:27:42.960 --> 0:27:46.200
<v Speaker 1>you understand the damage you are doing to your child's brain?

0:27:47.520 --> 0:27:50.200
<v Speaker 1>Remember what you're saying next time, I'm going to do that? Yeah,

0:27:50.359 --> 0:27:53.560
<v Speaker 1>come on, I mean, think about the impact that would

0:27:53.560 --> 0:27:55.720
<v Speaker 1>have had. Yeah. Maybe it's unwelcome, but I mean you're

0:27:55.720 --> 0:27:58.320
<v Speaker 1>doing them a favor, you know, at least giving them

0:27:58.359 --> 0:28:01.160
<v Speaker 1>the information that they may not be privy too. What's

0:28:01.160 --> 0:28:05.840
<v Speaker 1>so interesting, Chelsea, because there are times when I wonder

0:28:05.960 --> 0:28:12.840
<v Speaker 1>about doing that, offering un requested suggestions. Now my kids

0:28:12.840 --> 0:28:16.000
<v Speaker 1>are now adults, so that's that's a whole parenting adult

0:28:16.080 --> 0:28:20.080
<v Speaker 1>children thing where you actually intentionally don't do it. But

0:28:20.240 --> 0:28:22.919
<v Speaker 1>as a professional and a member of our human family,

0:28:23.440 --> 0:28:26.240
<v Speaker 1>when do I offer stuff like that? So it's a

0:28:26.240 --> 0:28:28.879
<v Speaker 1>little tricky. I've I've tried it a few times and

0:28:28.960 --> 0:28:31.399
<v Speaker 1>it often does not go off well. So what I

0:28:31.440 --> 0:28:33.360
<v Speaker 1>do is I keep a lot of my extra parenting

0:28:33.359 --> 0:28:35.920
<v Speaker 1>books in the car and then I just like hand

0:28:35.960 --> 0:28:38.000
<v Speaker 1>them out for free, like you know Halloween, you know,

0:28:38.080 --> 0:28:40.760
<v Speaker 1>trigger Yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess you know nobody. I

0:28:40.800 --> 0:28:43.760
<v Speaker 1>mean most people would say, don't give unsolicited advice. I

0:28:43.800 --> 0:28:46.960
<v Speaker 1>obviously subscribe to a different theory. I think that sometimes

0:28:46.960 --> 0:28:49.720
<v Speaker 1>I can hit somebody. I mean not always, but sometimes

0:28:49.760 --> 0:28:51.720
<v Speaker 1>you can get somebody who really hears you and and

0:28:51.880 --> 0:28:54.760
<v Speaker 1>you're doing them a service or a favor, you know.

0:28:54.960 --> 0:28:57.280
<v Speaker 1>I mean that is sad. Yeah, But you know, when

0:28:57.320 --> 0:28:59.960
<v Speaker 1>you and I first met, I really was impressed with

0:29:00.040 --> 0:29:04.080
<v Speaker 1>how you like to learn new stuff. What in you

0:29:04.800 --> 0:29:09.240
<v Speaker 1>really empowers you to have such a focus on lifelong learning,

0:29:09.960 --> 0:29:12.000
<v Speaker 1>because when you came to me, you weren't like an

0:29:12.000 --> 0:29:13.880
<v Speaker 1>adolescent coming to me for therapy. You know, I'm a

0:29:14.000 --> 0:29:17.800
<v Speaker 1>child adolescent and adult therapist, and adolescent can struggle with things.

0:29:18.040 --> 0:29:20.800
<v Speaker 1>You know. You were a full on adult accomplished a lot,

0:29:21.080 --> 0:29:23.760
<v Speaker 1>but you came to learn more, you know, and it

0:29:23.840 --> 0:29:26.040
<v Speaker 1>was it's such a beautiful thing that I think life

0:29:26.040 --> 0:29:29.120
<v Speaker 1>will be the death of me. Your book illustrates. But

0:29:29.720 --> 0:29:32.360
<v Speaker 1>what is it that you can teach all of us

0:29:32.400 --> 0:29:38.360
<v Speaker 1>about your lifelong learning nature? Um? Well, I mean, thank you.

0:29:38.440 --> 0:29:40.480
<v Speaker 1>I think that's a huge compliment. I mean, I don't

0:29:40.520 --> 0:29:44.120
<v Speaker 1>know that it's really I think I just I'm very curious,

0:29:44.160 --> 0:29:46.360
<v Speaker 1>you know, Like I have a curiosity that I've always

0:29:46.360 --> 0:29:48.920
<v Speaker 1>had which has gotten me into lots of trouble as

0:29:48.960 --> 0:29:52.680
<v Speaker 1>a child, like asking impertinent questions, but being really curious

0:29:52.680 --> 0:29:56.680
<v Speaker 1>about people's lives. And I love interpersonal dynamics, like I

0:29:56.760 --> 0:29:59.520
<v Speaker 1>just love like when I meet a family, like if

0:29:59.560 --> 0:30:01.880
<v Speaker 1>I'm on occasion and I get to meet brothers and

0:30:01.960 --> 0:30:05.680
<v Speaker 1>sisters together with their parents and watching the dynamics and

0:30:05.720 --> 0:30:08.440
<v Speaker 1>like how they function. I just will never get tired

0:30:08.440 --> 0:30:10.800
<v Speaker 1>of that. And because I'm some from such a big

0:30:10.840 --> 0:30:14.280
<v Speaker 1>family and we have so many additional family members, because

0:30:14.320 --> 0:30:16.920
<v Speaker 1>people get married and hook up and have boyfriends and

0:30:16.920 --> 0:30:19.840
<v Speaker 1>girlfriends and children, it just gets more and more complex.

0:30:19.880 --> 0:30:22.720
<v Speaker 1>And so for me, it was about becoming a better,

0:30:22.960 --> 0:30:29.520
<v Speaker 1>more self aware, fuller person. But curiosity, I think, you know,

0:30:29.560 --> 0:30:31.960
<v Speaker 1>I could listen to you talk about the brain and

0:30:32.040 --> 0:30:35.440
<v Speaker 1>science for hours because I find that fascinating too, you know.

0:30:35.560 --> 0:30:38.880
<v Speaker 1>I mean there are things I don't find fascinating, like bitcoin,

0:30:39.080 --> 0:30:42.720
<v Speaker 1>you know that is when I talk about that, it's like, okay,

0:30:42.800 --> 0:30:45.400
<v Speaker 1>I don't have I mean I had someone explained an

0:30:45.520 --> 0:30:47.680
<v Speaker 1>n F T to me finally where I was able

0:30:47.720 --> 0:30:51.680
<v Speaker 1>to get understand from the beginning to the end, and

0:30:51.720 --> 0:30:53.880
<v Speaker 1>I was like, oh my god, I want to I

0:30:53.920 --> 0:30:56.600
<v Speaker 1>want to pay you for that explanation because I now

0:30:56.720 --> 0:30:59.240
<v Speaker 1>understand what an n f T is. Okay, well, I

0:30:59.000 --> 0:31:01.920
<v Speaker 1>i'd have you tell me that, but we won't. We'll

0:31:01.920 --> 0:31:04.640
<v Speaker 1>save that for another We'll save that for a private conversation.

0:31:05.280 --> 0:31:06.800
<v Speaker 1>But thank you. I mean, I don't know, I really

0:31:06.800 --> 0:31:08.480
<v Speaker 1>don't know how to answer that, but I do think

0:31:08.480 --> 0:31:11.320
<v Speaker 1>that you know, when you ask questions, you're you're signing

0:31:11.400 --> 0:31:14.960
<v Speaker 1>up for just like more knowledge, right, You're yea, And

0:31:15.080 --> 0:31:18.320
<v Speaker 1>especially if you have the luxury of going to someone

0:31:18.360 --> 0:31:21.080
<v Speaker 1>like you you have so much experience, it's like it's

0:31:21.120 --> 0:31:24.400
<v Speaker 1>a win win situation. Yes, it's going to be painful

0:31:24.440 --> 0:31:26.840
<v Speaker 1>at times when you're doing inner work, of course, because

0:31:26.880 --> 0:31:29.440
<v Speaker 1>you have to face things about yourself that are not

0:31:29.520 --> 0:31:33.440
<v Speaker 1>pleasant and that are humiliating or embarrassing or however you

0:31:33.480 --> 0:31:36.600
<v Speaker 1>want to frame that. But bravery gets you to a

0:31:36.600 --> 0:31:39.120
<v Speaker 1>better place in life. I think you know, being brave

0:31:39.120 --> 0:31:44.280
<v Speaker 1>about finding out about yourself. I think your journey and therapy,

0:31:44.360 --> 0:31:48.960
<v Speaker 1>it isn't everyone's experience that they're so basically open to change.

0:31:49.520 --> 0:31:52.800
<v Speaker 1>And I remember there was a moment and you say

0:31:52.840 --> 0:31:54.680
<v Speaker 1>this in the book, so I can I can share it.

0:31:54.840 --> 0:31:57.760
<v Speaker 1>You got very emotional about something, and I think there

0:31:57.920 --> 0:32:01.440
<v Speaker 1>was an awareness that you felt shouldn't be emotionally, shouldn't

0:32:01.480 --> 0:32:04.720
<v Speaker 1>be crying, You shouldn't have it right. One is lifelong learning,

0:32:04.760 --> 0:32:07.800
<v Speaker 1>but the other is openness to change. Well, yes, I

0:32:07.840 --> 0:32:11.120
<v Speaker 1>would encourage everyone to always be curious to learn. I

0:32:11.160 --> 0:32:14.640
<v Speaker 1>mean learning is knowledge and knowledge is power and I

0:32:14.680 --> 0:32:18.160
<v Speaker 1>want to be poweraful Okay, so should we go ahead

0:32:18.200 --> 0:32:20.240
<v Speaker 1>and take some colors? I think that's a great idea,

0:32:20.360 --> 0:32:22.160
<v Speaker 1>And I'm going to make us take a quick break

0:32:22.240 --> 0:32:25.440
<v Speaker 1>before I do that. I love breaks, but let's take one. Excellent.

0:32:30.280 --> 0:32:32.000
<v Speaker 1>We had a call, all right, Katherine, that's going to

0:32:32.120 --> 0:32:35.320
<v Speaker 1>call back in because it's a man who's transition from

0:32:35.320 --> 0:32:37.520
<v Speaker 1>being a woman and he has a three year old

0:32:37.640 --> 0:32:41.800
<v Speaker 1>daughter with his wife, and he was asking when the

0:32:41.840 --> 0:32:45.960
<v Speaker 1>appropriate time is to explain all of those things to her,

0:32:46.040 --> 0:32:48.200
<v Speaker 1>and I thought, we have Dan coming up. I think

0:32:48.200 --> 0:32:50.960
<v Speaker 1>you'd be better suited to answer that question instead of me.

0:32:51.560 --> 0:32:53.720
<v Speaker 1>So I think we were able to get Alex on

0:32:53.760 --> 0:32:56.200
<v Speaker 1>the phone today, right, Catherine, Yes, his three year old

0:32:56.280 --> 0:32:59.480
<v Speaker 1>daughter Sutton. He has a bottom surgery coming up in

0:32:59.520 --> 0:33:01.360
<v Speaker 1>the next year and a half, and so he's wondering

0:33:01.400 --> 0:33:07.320
<v Speaker 1>how to address those things with Sutton. So Hi Alex, Hello,

0:33:08.000 --> 0:33:11.320
<v Speaker 1>Hi Alex. Yeah, it's nice to meet you. Nice to

0:33:11.320 --> 0:33:14.680
<v Speaker 1>meet you. Thank you for having me. Yeah, well, when

0:33:14.760 --> 0:33:16.560
<v Speaker 1>you were on last time, I was like, oh, you

0:33:16.600 --> 0:33:19.120
<v Speaker 1>know what I you know, we had a great conversation,

0:33:19.120 --> 0:33:21.600
<v Speaker 1>but I thought we have my doctor coming on next

0:33:21.680 --> 0:33:24.840
<v Speaker 1>and he would be better suited since he specializes in

0:33:25.040 --> 0:33:30.120
<v Speaker 1>adolescent brain development and childhood all of this stuff. So, yeah,

0:33:30.160 --> 0:33:32.880
<v Speaker 1>he's here, so we were we thought maybe you could

0:33:32.920 --> 0:33:36.480
<v Speaker 1>give him a summary of your situation so he could

0:33:36.480 --> 0:33:40.600
<v Speaker 1>weigh in for sure. Yeah, absolutely, thank you. So the

0:33:40.680 --> 0:33:43.200
<v Speaker 1>situation really is is I am I am three year old,

0:33:43.400 --> 0:33:46.440
<v Speaker 1>and I am on the cusp of going through the

0:33:46.480 --> 0:33:50.520
<v Speaker 1>consultation process to have my next major surgery as being

0:33:50.640 --> 0:33:55.240
<v Speaker 1>a transgender, and I really am going to be embarking

0:33:55.320 --> 0:33:58.560
<v Speaker 1>upon a long journey of about three to four surgeries

0:33:58.600 --> 0:34:01.760
<v Speaker 1>to have everything happened, and it usually takes about a

0:34:01.840 --> 0:34:04.720
<v Speaker 1>year year and a half in long recovery times. And

0:34:05.240 --> 0:34:08.440
<v Speaker 1>I wanted to do this early in in Sutton's development

0:34:08.480 --> 0:34:10.879
<v Speaker 1>so that it wasn't kind of a core memory for her.

0:34:11.000 --> 0:34:14.040
<v Speaker 1>But I'm just kind of teetering on on how much

0:34:14.120 --> 0:34:16.319
<v Speaker 1>to be to tell a three year old a four

0:34:16.400 --> 0:34:19.400
<v Speaker 1>year old about what type of surgery I'm having, the

0:34:19.480 --> 0:34:21.520
<v Speaker 1>impact that it's going to have to her life, as

0:34:21.560 --> 0:34:24.560
<v Speaker 1>well as what healing time is, because it's not like

0:34:24.680 --> 0:34:27.440
<v Speaker 1>I'm sick or going through anything that's that's something that

0:34:27.480 --> 0:34:29.560
<v Speaker 1>she should be worried about. More So, this is a

0:34:29.600 --> 0:34:32.080
<v Speaker 1>great part of my journey, but it's going to be

0:34:32.120 --> 0:34:34.520
<v Speaker 1>impactful for her, So I just want to make sure

0:34:34.560 --> 0:34:37.960
<v Speaker 1>that I'm expressing both sides of it and the reality

0:34:38.040 --> 0:34:40.319
<v Speaker 1>of it, but also in a way that she's going

0:34:40.360 --> 0:34:45.160
<v Speaker 1>to understand what's happening to Danny. Well. She's so lucky

0:34:45.239 --> 0:34:48.680
<v Speaker 1>to have you as a parent, Alex, because your intuition

0:34:49.520 --> 0:34:53.840
<v Speaker 1>of tuning in and getting a feeling of transparency that

0:34:54.080 --> 0:34:58.319
<v Speaker 1>a family without secrets is a family that has you

0:34:58.320 --> 0:35:01.000
<v Speaker 1>could call it a coherent narrative that as a narrative

0:35:01.440 --> 0:35:04.760
<v Speaker 1>about whatever is going on, even if it's about something

0:35:04.840 --> 0:35:08.040
<v Speaker 1>wasn't expected, which is usually where stories come from. You

0:35:08.040 --> 0:35:13.120
<v Speaker 1>know is really important and what is your heart and

0:35:13.200 --> 0:35:15.200
<v Speaker 1>your gut? Literally we have three brains. You have a

0:35:15.239 --> 0:35:17.560
<v Speaker 1>brain in your head. You have a brain in your heart,

0:35:18.000 --> 0:35:20.400
<v Speaker 1>you have a brain in your gut. And what is

0:35:20.480 --> 0:35:22.640
<v Speaker 1>your heart brain and your gut brain? What are they

0:35:22.680 --> 0:35:25.120
<v Speaker 1>telling your head brain that has the words to speak,

0:35:25.680 --> 0:35:29.600
<v Speaker 1>what are they signaling to you? So I suppose if

0:35:29.680 --> 0:35:33.880
<v Speaker 1>I was to refer to my heart, uh, I would

0:35:33.880 --> 0:35:36.600
<v Speaker 1>say that I want to make sure that she feels

0:35:36.600 --> 0:35:40.760
<v Speaker 1>comforted in in those times when I'm healing and I,

0:35:40.920 --> 0:35:43.160
<v Speaker 1>you know, can't can't be around her as much, can't

0:35:43.160 --> 0:35:45.040
<v Speaker 1>play with her own so much or engage with her

0:35:45.320 --> 0:35:49.600
<v Speaker 1>as she expects. And then I guess, my my gut

0:35:49.640 --> 0:35:51.680
<v Speaker 1>is kind of telling me to be a little bit

0:35:51.680 --> 0:35:54.719
<v Speaker 1>more worried about kind of what the impact is going

0:35:54.760 --> 0:35:57.279
<v Speaker 1>to have and and what I guess the optics are

0:35:57.320 --> 0:36:00.359
<v Speaker 1>are a big thing. Um, optics of her going back

0:36:00.400 --> 0:36:03.200
<v Speaker 1>to daycare or talking about what our family looks like

0:36:03.280 --> 0:36:06.040
<v Speaker 1>at that time, or her having to do everything with

0:36:06.120 --> 0:36:08.120
<v Speaker 1>mom because I won't be able to get out of

0:36:08.160 --> 0:36:10.399
<v Speaker 1>the house as well for for that amount of time.

0:36:10.520 --> 0:36:13.080
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, I just want her to feel like like

0:36:13.160 --> 0:36:16.080
<v Speaker 1>I'm still there just as I am every single day

0:36:16.120 --> 0:36:20.600
<v Speaker 1>now with being as able as I am. That's fantastic.

0:36:20.719 --> 0:36:24.399
<v Speaker 1>And you know, these two brains when they send their

0:36:24.520 --> 0:36:26.960
<v Speaker 1>wisdom up to your head brain, which has kind of

0:36:27.000 --> 0:36:31.120
<v Speaker 1>logic and thinking about things in that way, what does

0:36:31.160 --> 0:36:35.200
<v Speaker 1>your head brain say about the whole developmental timing of

0:36:35.680 --> 0:36:40.840
<v Speaker 1>when to speak with her. I suppose my my headbrain

0:36:40.960 --> 0:36:44.040
<v Speaker 1>is kind of kind of being more logical hopefully it's

0:36:44.080 --> 0:36:47.400
<v Speaker 1>it's it's on my side, but being more logical in

0:36:47.440 --> 0:36:49.680
<v Speaker 1>the way that and telling me that it's it's it's

0:36:49.800 --> 0:36:52.520
<v Speaker 1>going to be okay, like this is only going to

0:36:52.520 --> 0:36:56.799
<v Speaker 1>be a blip and what our family development looks like.

0:36:57.320 --> 0:36:59.640
<v Speaker 1>And I hope that what comes out of it is

0:36:59.680 --> 0:37:03.319
<v Speaker 1>that he sees that my happiness continues to grow on

0:37:03.400 --> 0:37:07.239
<v Speaker 1>my personal journey and that our family just becomes more

0:37:07.800 --> 0:37:10.080
<v Speaker 1>kind of united, and that when she looks back on

0:37:10.160 --> 0:37:12.760
<v Speaker 1>the time, yes, it was trying in the grand scheme

0:37:12.800 --> 0:37:15.080
<v Speaker 1>of how we had to schedule things, and I wasn't

0:37:15.120 --> 0:37:17.640
<v Speaker 1>there for you know, going and running outside as much.

0:37:17.680 --> 0:37:21.200
<v Speaker 1>But after the healing, life will go back to quote

0:37:21.280 --> 0:37:24.360
<v Speaker 1>unquote normal and I will just have more happiness and

0:37:24.440 --> 0:37:27.360
<v Speaker 1>more understanding of where how I walk in the world.

0:37:27.440 --> 0:37:30.960
<v Speaker 1>So that hopefully just makes it easier for her and

0:37:31.040 --> 0:37:34.239
<v Speaker 1>for our family to progress as as a unit. That's

0:37:34.239 --> 0:37:37.640
<v Speaker 1>so beautiful. Well, I mean, Alex, for me, you've kind

0:37:37.640 --> 0:37:41.359
<v Speaker 1>of answered the question in the deepest way of what

0:37:41.560 --> 0:37:44.080
<v Speaker 1>feels right to you personally, what feels right to you

0:37:44.080 --> 0:37:47.640
<v Speaker 1>if your your daughter, and then you know when you're

0:37:47.680 --> 0:37:50.080
<v Speaker 1>turning to Chelsea and you know, turning to me, you know,

0:37:50.239 --> 0:37:54.600
<v Speaker 1>as a person who writes about development, here's just added

0:37:54.640 --> 0:37:57.200
<v Speaker 1>on top of your wisdom, I would just add the

0:37:57.239 --> 0:38:01.880
<v Speaker 1>following things. The way you're think approaching the notion of

0:38:01.920 --> 0:38:05.040
<v Speaker 1>a family story, the family narrative. And I don't say

0:38:05.120 --> 0:38:09.480
<v Speaker 1>story like a pretend story. I mean we are narrative creatures.

0:38:09.520 --> 0:38:12.319
<v Speaker 1>We tell the story of who we are. And some

0:38:12.360 --> 0:38:15.080
<v Speaker 1>families never do that, and there are all sorts of

0:38:15.280 --> 0:38:18.280
<v Speaker 1>secrets and all sorts of things that are never talked about,

0:38:18.960 --> 0:38:22.680
<v Speaker 1>you know, and then that shuts things down. I mean, Chelsea,

0:38:22.719 --> 0:38:24.840
<v Speaker 1>we could talk about that about when your your brother

0:38:24.920 --> 0:38:27.760
<v Speaker 1>died that you've written about so powerfully in your narrative

0:38:28.239 --> 0:38:32.080
<v Speaker 1>of letting that come out and be the story. So Alex,

0:38:32.120 --> 0:38:35.680
<v Speaker 1>for you and for your whole family, everything can be

0:38:35.719 --> 0:38:40.400
<v Speaker 1>our teacher. You know, life happens, stuff that's challenging happens,

0:38:41.000 --> 0:38:43.919
<v Speaker 1>and if we see things that are not expected as

0:38:44.440 --> 0:38:48.600
<v Speaker 1>challenges rather than as threats. Then we bring as a

0:38:48.640 --> 0:38:52.040
<v Speaker 1>parent a very different attitude, like saying, you know, we

0:38:52.080 --> 0:38:56.640
<v Speaker 1>didn't expect this to happen. Now, how you then make

0:38:56.719 --> 0:39:01.880
<v Speaker 1>that health promoting growth promoting stress or distress is what

0:39:01.960 --> 0:39:04.640
<v Speaker 1>I think your beautiful question is doing. You're saying this

0:39:04.719 --> 0:39:07.839
<v Speaker 1>is going to be stressful, that's fine. Life is that's

0:39:07.920 --> 0:39:11.000
<v Speaker 1>meaningful and stressful. How do we allow this to turn

0:39:11.000 --> 0:39:15.800
<v Speaker 1>into a positive, growth promoting, challenging experience rather than a threat?

0:39:16.320 --> 0:39:20.200
<v Speaker 1>And the answer is what you've already told us. You're

0:39:20.239 --> 0:39:24.640
<v Speaker 1>ready to be fully present with your daughter. You're being

0:39:24.680 --> 0:39:28.320
<v Speaker 1>fully present with yourself, and so you know you could

0:39:28.360 --> 0:39:30.680
<v Speaker 1>turn to the people who are involved in the surgery

0:39:30.680 --> 0:39:32.800
<v Speaker 1>and the centers you're working with and ask them this question,

0:39:32.800 --> 0:39:35.040
<v Speaker 1>to which I urge you to do. From my point

0:39:35.040 --> 0:39:37.319
<v Speaker 1>of view, it's not my area of specialty, but as

0:39:37.320 --> 0:39:40.440
<v Speaker 1>a child specialist, what I would say is this is

0:39:41.080 --> 0:39:44.640
<v Speaker 1>every child's a little different terms of their temperament, and

0:39:44.680 --> 0:39:46.719
<v Speaker 1>every child a little different in terms of their attachment

0:39:46.760 --> 0:39:52.239
<v Speaker 1>to different caregivers. But the commonality across temperament and attachment

0:39:52.880 --> 0:39:55.600
<v Speaker 1>is to tell a story that makes sense of things.

0:39:55.640 --> 0:39:58.279
<v Speaker 1>So in a book I wrote called parenting from the

0:39:58.320 --> 0:40:01.400
<v Speaker 1>inside out. It's sort of t reaches you how to

0:40:01.440 --> 0:40:04.440
<v Speaker 1>bring those stories. Or I wrote that with Mary Hartzel.

0:40:04.560 --> 0:40:07.160
<v Speaker 1>A book I wrote with Tina Payne Bryson is called

0:40:07.200 --> 0:40:09.520
<v Speaker 1>The Power of Showing Up. Those two books would be

0:40:09.600 --> 0:40:13.640
<v Speaker 1>great ones for you to actually read before you tell

0:40:13.680 --> 0:40:18.080
<v Speaker 1>her the story, because they show that whenever whatever the age,

0:40:18.640 --> 0:40:21.160
<v Speaker 1>people ask this about kids are adopted, when should I

0:40:21.200 --> 0:40:24.319
<v Speaker 1>tell my adopted kids? Whenever? You bring it to three four,

0:40:24.719 --> 0:40:28.040
<v Speaker 1>she's old enough now to be able to hear a story,

0:40:28.840 --> 0:40:30.520
<v Speaker 1>as you know, do you want to hear it again

0:40:30.680 --> 0:40:32.960
<v Speaker 1>and again and again to agad and so you have

0:40:33.000 --> 0:40:36.520
<v Speaker 1>to be ready to like be repeating yourself. But that's fine.

0:40:36.800 --> 0:40:39.799
<v Speaker 1>And when she sees the love in your heart, when

0:40:39.880 --> 0:40:44.000
<v Speaker 1>she feels that your gut is really behind this and

0:40:44.040 --> 0:40:47.320
<v Speaker 1>your head is now bringing the words to make a story,

0:40:47.400 --> 0:40:51.239
<v Speaker 1>makes sense. She's ready at three unless there's some of

0:40:51.280 --> 0:40:53.759
<v Speaker 1>the other issue that says, let's hold it off. But

0:40:53.800 --> 0:40:56.600
<v Speaker 1>if the surgery is happening soon, then telling the story

0:40:57.040 --> 0:40:59.800
<v Speaker 1>even having you know toys that allow you know, enact

0:41:00.000 --> 0:41:02.719
<v Speaker 1>a story. And here's what I would say. This is

0:41:03.120 --> 0:41:05.600
<v Speaker 1>not just about the surgery, but about the general idea

0:41:05.640 --> 0:41:11.480
<v Speaker 1>of transitioning is people they don't understand that gender identity

0:41:11.719 --> 0:41:15.320
<v Speaker 1>is different than assigned sex, whether you have a penis

0:41:15.400 --> 0:41:17.719
<v Speaker 1>or vagina. When I used to be in pediatrics and

0:41:17.760 --> 0:41:20.480
<v Speaker 1>we go to the delivery room to help with the baby,

0:41:20.680 --> 0:41:24.560
<v Speaker 1>you'd see the outer manifestation and say boy or girl.

0:41:25.040 --> 0:41:30.680
<v Speaker 1>But gender identity is actually along an entire continuum because

0:41:30.800 --> 0:41:36.080
<v Speaker 1>the brain of mammals can be hugely female, which it

0:41:36.160 --> 0:41:39.040
<v Speaker 1>starts out as in all of us. But then the

0:41:39.200 --> 0:41:43.040
<v Speaker 1>way the testosterone that's secreted by the testicles crosses the

0:41:43.040 --> 0:41:46.920
<v Speaker 1>blood brain barrier into various degrees masculizes that brain to

0:41:47.040 --> 0:41:50.400
<v Speaker 1>be a teeny bit masculine but mostly feminine, or middle

0:41:50.440 --> 0:41:53.680
<v Speaker 1>way both ways or all the way masculine. Your gender

0:41:53.719 --> 0:41:57.279
<v Speaker 1>identity is based on that, and it's not yes or no.

0:41:57.560 --> 0:41:59.359
<v Speaker 1>It's not like a switch on or off, you know,

0:41:59.640 --> 0:42:04.040
<v Speaker 1>boy or girl. So just explaining it that way, even

0:42:04.040 --> 0:42:06.360
<v Speaker 1>like a switch, you say, what we look like for

0:42:06.480 --> 0:42:09.800
<v Speaker 1>most of us, of us outwardly when we're born, is

0:42:09.840 --> 0:42:12.160
<v Speaker 1>like a switch. It's on or off, it's boy or girl.

0:42:12.440 --> 0:42:14.719
<v Speaker 1>But actually gender identities not like that. It's more like

0:42:14.760 --> 0:42:18.799
<v Speaker 1>a thermostat where we have all these degrees and you

0:42:18.840 --> 0:42:22.279
<v Speaker 1>can't tell a person's gender identity from the outside. And

0:42:22.880 --> 0:42:25.680
<v Speaker 1>I had one gender identity and my assigned sex with

0:42:25.719 --> 0:42:29.120
<v Speaker 1>something else. So I'm in the good fortune of making

0:42:29.160 --> 0:42:31.520
<v Speaker 1>sense of that, and so I'm going to make my

0:42:31.600 --> 0:42:35.719
<v Speaker 1>outside match my inside. That's the story, right, So she

0:42:35.880 --> 0:42:38.399
<v Speaker 1>at three, she's gonna get that. And when I work

0:42:38.480 --> 0:42:40.680
<v Speaker 1>with kids who are like four or five, who are

0:42:40.719 --> 0:42:43.320
<v Speaker 1>assigned gender is one thing, but our gender identity is

0:42:43.360 --> 0:42:46.239
<v Speaker 1>the other. I talked to them about that and the

0:42:46.320 --> 0:42:49.760
<v Speaker 1>parents say, oh, but this is gonna be challenging. Go yeah,

0:42:49.800 --> 0:42:51.719
<v Speaker 1>but this is the way it is. And this person

0:42:51.800 --> 0:42:56.200
<v Speaker 1>could be incredibly healthy and happy if you, as their parents,

0:42:56.600 --> 0:42:59.800
<v Speaker 1>let them see, this is just what happened. And life

0:42:59.840 --> 0:43:03.160
<v Speaker 1>is about always exploring and learning and growing and this

0:43:03.239 --> 0:43:06.600
<v Speaker 1>is a beautiful thing and it works out fine. Whereas

0:43:06.680 --> 0:43:09.200
<v Speaker 1>is you know, if people say no, no, no, you

0:43:09.280 --> 0:43:11.840
<v Speaker 1>can't do that, that's when it's a problem. So is

0:43:11.840 --> 0:43:15.279
<v Speaker 1>that part of the what you've learned in your journey? Absolutely,

0:43:15.440 --> 0:43:18.520
<v Speaker 1>And making sure that having a daughter that's kind of

0:43:18.520 --> 0:43:20.960
<v Speaker 1>going through this journey as a part of my journey,

0:43:21.040 --> 0:43:24.359
<v Speaker 1>I feel it's my responsibility as her parent to make

0:43:24.360 --> 0:43:27.560
<v Speaker 1>sure that the environments that she is in the people

0:43:28.000 --> 0:43:31.440
<v Speaker 1>have that positive outlook and that's what I'm trying to

0:43:31.480 --> 0:43:35.080
<v Speaker 1>do as well, which is why it's just nerve racking,

0:43:35.120 --> 0:43:37.920
<v Speaker 1>you know, raising a kid in this day and age.

0:43:37.920 --> 0:43:40.720
<v Speaker 1>And I'm from We're in a small town in West Michigan,

0:43:40.840 --> 0:43:44.080
<v Speaker 1>so um, it's a little bit difficult. But I think

0:43:44.200 --> 0:43:47.480
<v Speaker 1>exactly like you said, creating that narrative for my family

0:43:47.600 --> 0:43:51.239
<v Speaker 1>that makes a positive space no matter what challenges come

0:43:51.280 --> 0:43:54.000
<v Speaker 1>about is is a great way to put it. Because

0:43:54.160 --> 0:43:57.919
<v Speaker 1>no one writes that story or that narrative, but but us, Yeah,

0:43:58.000 --> 0:44:01.600
<v Speaker 1>exactly exactly. You know you might enjoy also and giving

0:44:01.600 --> 0:44:04.319
<v Speaker 1>you these references. But there's a book called Brainstorm I

0:44:04.360 --> 0:44:10.080
<v Speaker 1>wrote for adolescence which talks about how parents can approach

0:44:10.200 --> 0:44:13.120
<v Speaker 1>when a child themselves is having a different This is

0:44:13.160 --> 0:44:15.759
<v Speaker 1>I think with sexual orientation issue, but the same thing.

0:44:15.800 --> 0:44:18.920
<v Speaker 1>You know, parents have one expectation, a kid comes out

0:44:18.960 --> 0:44:21.040
<v Speaker 1>the other way. How that works out. This will be

0:44:21.080 --> 0:44:22.759
<v Speaker 1>the flip side where you're going to come as the

0:44:22.800 --> 0:44:26.120
<v Speaker 1>parent to teach your child that what she may be

0:44:26.280 --> 0:44:31.040
<v Speaker 1>learning in school or in television is one extreme and

0:44:31.080 --> 0:44:34.040
<v Speaker 1>that is actually more subtle. And so she has the

0:44:34.080 --> 0:44:37.040
<v Speaker 1>incredible fortune of having you as a parent who will

0:44:37.080 --> 0:44:40.000
<v Speaker 1>guide her through a deeper notion of the way things

0:44:40.080 --> 0:44:42.759
<v Speaker 1>actually are, which is a beautiful gift you're gonna get her.

0:44:43.719 --> 0:44:46.480
<v Speaker 1>Thank you. I appreciate that, and I appreciate your advice,

0:44:46.520 --> 0:44:48.400
<v Speaker 1>and thank you for for having me so that I

0:44:48.400 --> 0:44:51.120
<v Speaker 1>can have that conversation and get that. I appreciate it. Well.

0:44:51.160 --> 0:44:52.600
<v Speaker 1>I hope we'll be able to check in with you

0:44:52.640 --> 0:44:57.080
<v Speaker 1>and see how it all goes. Thank you, Hi, Alex,

0:44:57.840 --> 0:45:02.279
<v Speaker 1>thank you so much. That was perfect awesome. I was

0:45:02.320 --> 0:45:08.080
<v Speaker 1>wonderful really connecting the dots here. Yeah, and I loved

0:45:08.120 --> 0:45:11.200
<v Speaker 1>what you said to about gender being so separate from

0:45:11.200 --> 0:45:15.640
<v Speaker 1>the actual physical sex. It actually goes with another question

0:45:15.760 --> 0:45:20.120
<v Speaker 1>that someone wrote in, but this one really directly relates

0:45:20.320 --> 0:45:24.520
<v Speaker 1>to what you were saying. So this question is from Monica,

0:45:25.080 --> 0:45:28.520
<v Speaker 1>whose child Kira, has told Monica that they'd like to

0:45:28.560 --> 0:45:31.920
<v Speaker 1>go by day them pronounced so. Monica says, Dear Chelsea

0:45:32.200 --> 0:45:34.799
<v Speaker 1>love the podcast. We have a fifteen year old daughter

0:45:34.840 --> 0:45:36.719
<v Speaker 1>who came out to us as non binary a few

0:45:36.719 --> 0:45:39.280
<v Speaker 1>months ago. She tells us that all of her friends

0:45:39.320 --> 0:45:42.400
<v Speaker 1>referred to her as they slashed them. A couple of

0:45:42.440 --> 0:45:45.640
<v Speaker 1>years ago, she told us she was bisexual. I laughed

0:45:45.640 --> 0:45:48.160
<v Speaker 1>and told her that it was a trend. I didn't

0:45:48.200 --> 0:45:51.560
<v Speaker 1>handle that well, obviously trying to do this one better.

0:45:52.080 --> 0:45:54.840
<v Speaker 1>We live in Boulder, Colorado, in a very liberal setting,

0:45:54.840 --> 0:45:56.760
<v Speaker 1>where it's hard to tell if this is a trendy

0:45:56.840 --> 0:45:59.960
<v Speaker 1>choice or an actual feeling that she's going with. Several

0:46:00.000 --> 0:46:03.080
<v Speaker 1>of her friends are either bisexual, non binary, or trans.

0:46:03.640 --> 0:46:07.000
<v Speaker 1>We love that this generation can explore their sexuality, unlike

0:46:07.160 --> 0:46:09.680
<v Speaker 1>we were able to do growing up. The hard part

0:46:09.840 --> 0:46:12.440
<v Speaker 1>is the labels. I feel like at this point in

0:46:12.480 --> 0:46:15.279
<v Speaker 1>her life she doesn't have to label her sexuality. Am

0:46:15.320 --> 0:46:18.560
<v Speaker 1>I wrong? My husband and I don't feel comfortable referring

0:46:18.600 --> 0:46:21.440
<v Speaker 1>to her as they slash them. We're both very open

0:46:21.600 --> 0:46:24.279
<v Speaker 1>and liberal. We believe that people should love whomever they

0:46:24.280 --> 0:46:27.640
<v Speaker 1>want to love to find happiness. For some reason, we're

0:46:27.680 --> 0:46:30.319
<v Speaker 1>having a hard time with this one. We support her

0:46:30.360 --> 0:46:32.640
<v Speaker 1>in every single way, and whoever she wants to love

0:46:32.680 --> 0:46:36.200
<v Speaker 1>would completely support. She's single at the moment. The issue

0:46:36.280 --> 0:46:39.000
<v Speaker 1>is the pronouns. We've talked to her about this and

0:46:39.040 --> 0:46:40.799
<v Speaker 1>have told her that we support her, but we don't

0:46:40.840 --> 0:46:44.759
<v Speaker 1>feel comfortable switching pronouns at this point. She says she understands.

0:46:45.000 --> 0:46:50.560
<v Speaker 1>Are my husband and I complete assholes? Thanks? For your time, Monica. Well,

0:46:50.560 --> 0:46:55.240
<v Speaker 1>thank you Catherine for sharing Monica's question. There's so much

0:46:56.000 --> 0:47:01.600
<v Speaker 1>to say about her reflections. The first broadest statement to

0:47:01.760 --> 0:47:06.520
<v Speaker 1>make is the more you know, the less you see.

0:47:07.920 --> 0:47:10.640
<v Speaker 1>And what that means is the way the brain is constructed.

0:47:10.680 --> 0:47:15.120
<v Speaker 1>It kind of has has a way of learning, learning, learning, learning, learning,

0:47:15.480 --> 0:47:18.560
<v Speaker 1>and then to speed things up, it then makes categories

0:47:19.440 --> 0:47:22.120
<v Speaker 1>which have concepts then that emerge from them in words

0:47:22.160 --> 0:47:25.279
<v Speaker 1>like boy or girl. So by the time you're you know,

0:47:25.400 --> 0:47:28.399
<v Speaker 1>very young, you figured out, okay, i'm a boy, I'm

0:47:28.400 --> 0:47:30.600
<v Speaker 1>a girl. You know that one's a boy, that one's

0:47:30.600 --> 0:47:33.359
<v Speaker 1>a girl. You know those are categories, right, and they

0:47:33.400 --> 0:47:36.759
<v Speaker 1>kind of make sense from anatomy. But as we pointed out,

0:47:37.200 --> 0:47:42.840
<v Speaker 1>you're assigned sex, which is what your external anatomy is,

0:47:42.840 --> 0:47:47.479
<v Speaker 1>is actually not always correlated with the feeling inside of

0:47:47.680 --> 0:47:50.799
<v Speaker 1>who you are or the feeling of who you're sexually

0:47:50.880 --> 0:47:54.640
<v Speaker 1>aroused by. That often comes up initially. You can feel

0:47:54.680 --> 0:47:56.960
<v Speaker 1>that when you're four or five. Then it kind of

0:47:57.080 --> 0:47:58.759
<v Speaker 1>goes quiet for a little while, but then it gets

0:47:58.800 --> 0:48:02.640
<v Speaker 1>really active around eleven and twelve thirteen when adolescence hits. So,

0:48:02.920 --> 0:48:05.640
<v Speaker 1>you know, sexual orientation is the phrase we use for

0:48:05.680 --> 0:48:09.560
<v Speaker 1>who you are sexually attracted to, and so it can

0:48:09.600 --> 0:48:13.759
<v Speaker 1>be for people of your same assigned sex and you

0:48:13.880 --> 0:48:17.360
<v Speaker 1>call that one thing or different assigned sex, and we

0:48:17.400 --> 0:48:20.640
<v Speaker 1>call that something else. And so being open to your

0:48:20.680 --> 0:48:24.239
<v Speaker 1>sexual orientation who you're attracted to, that's one thing. So

0:48:24.280 --> 0:48:27.480
<v Speaker 1>when you use a word like bisexual, that's different than

0:48:27.480 --> 0:48:30.680
<v Speaker 1>the they them stories. So that should we should be

0:48:30.719 --> 0:48:33.160
<v Speaker 1>really clear about that. So that they them is about

0:48:33.200 --> 0:48:35.680
<v Speaker 1>gender identity. What I'd like to do if Monica heard,

0:48:35.680 --> 0:48:38.280
<v Speaker 1>ask her, but I'll ask you, Katherine and you Chelsea

0:48:38.320 --> 0:48:40.920
<v Speaker 1>about this. You know, people have asked me to put

0:48:41.000 --> 0:48:44.400
<v Speaker 1>my gender identity in my little box at the bottom

0:48:44.400 --> 0:48:47.359
<v Speaker 1>of a zoom call or any kind of platform. My

0:48:47.360 --> 0:48:50.080
<v Speaker 1>mom and I thought about it, and I thought, you know,

0:48:50.880 --> 0:48:55.200
<v Speaker 1>I actually don't feel like particularly he. I don't feel

0:48:55.239 --> 0:49:00.120
<v Speaker 1>like a she, I don't feel like they. Actually I

0:49:00.120 --> 0:49:02.480
<v Speaker 1>barely feel like a Dan. I know that's kind of

0:49:02.480 --> 0:49:05.520
<v Speaker 1>an illusion too. So I've been putting a b C D,

0:49:06.320 --> 0:49:09.319
<v Speaker 1>which is like an abbreviation for a body called Dan,

0:49:10.040 --> 0:49:12.440
<v Speaker 1>you know, because even that's an illusion. You know, we're

0:49:12.480 --> 0:49:15.640
<v Speaker 1>all kind of manifestations of the same essence popping up

0:49:15.640 --> 0:49:18.640
<v Speaker 1>in a body. For about a hundred years, so a

0:49:18.760 --> 0:49:24.319
<v Speaker 1>hundred Jesus Dan. Yeah, well that's a long time, I know,

0:49:24.520 --> 0:49:29.239
<v Speaker 1>but I can decious. Okay, fine, So anyway, let's just

0:49:29.880 --> 0:49:33.200
<v Speaker 1>put it that way, you know. So I say that

0:49:33.320 --> 0:49:37.680
<v Speaker 1>because the world needs us to broaden our identity from

0:49:37.719 --> 0:49:40.560
<v Speaker 1>just the bodies were in and realize in terms of

0:49:40.800 --> 0:49:44.839
<v Speaker 1>racial justice, social justice issues, and racism. You know, we're

0:49:44.880 --> 0:49:48.680
<v Speaker 1>part of one human family, and and also we're part

0:49:48.680 --> 0:49:50.480
<v Speaker 1>of the family of all living beings in terms of

0:49:50.480 --> 0:49:54.399
<v Speaker 1>what we're destroying bio diversity and the climate. So yeah,

0:49:54.400 --> 0:49:57.000
<v Speaker 1>they say, say whether he or she or they? And

0:49:57.040 --> 0:49:58.759
<v Speaker 1>I go, well, actually I want to say none of

0:49:58.800 --> 0:50:01.840
<v Speaker 1>the above. A lot to write, and then it gets

0:50:01.840 --> 0:50:05.000
<v Speaker 1>people angry. So when I don't put it on my

0:50:05.080 --> 0:50:08.919
<v Speaker 1>little name tag, it's not it's not because I'm being

0:50:09.080 --> 0:50:13.840
<v Speaker 1>like dismissive of it. I actually I don't want to

0:50:13.840 --> 0:50:15.239
<v Speaker 1>be put in a vine. So I don't know how

0:50:15.239 --> 0:50:16.879
<v Speaker 1>do you, the two of you feel when people ask

0:50:16.920 --> 0:50:19.759
<v Speaker 1>you to do that, because it's it's a personal, very

0:50:19.760 --> 0:50:23.759
<v Speaker 1>personal thing. Catherine, you identify, right, you label that I

0:50:23.800 --> 0:50:26.840
<v Speaker 1>know on your emails and yeah, I do. I. I

0:50:27.000 --> 0:50:30.759
<v Speaker 1>do it really as a support for people who may

0:50:30.800 --> 0:50:34.319
<v Speaker 1>not use traditional pronouns, and it was tricky for me

0:50:34.480 --> 0:50:36.239
<v Speaker 1>in the beginning. I have a few friends who are

0:50:36.280 --> 0:50:39.759
<v Speaker 1>non binary, and it was tricky in the beginning, And

0:50:39.840 --> 0:50:44.560
<v Speaker 1>now just after practicing, it's sort of suddenly feels like

0:50:44.600 --> 0:50:47.520
<v Speaker 1>the most natural thing in the world. Like said to

0:50:47.640 --> 0:50:50.799
<v Speaker 1>my husband's day. You know, we're going to our friend

0:50:50.800 --> 0:50:55.280
<v Speaker 1>Ash's birthday and it's at you know, seven o'clock, and

0:50:55.520 --> 0:50:57.160
<v Speaker 1>they want us to be there. Da da da da,

0:50:57.200 --> 0:50:59.440
<v Speaker 1>And it just suddenly feels like the most natural thing

0:50:59.440 --> 0:51:02.000
<v Speaker 1>in the world to use those pronouns for someone else.

0:51:02.360 --> 0:51:06.359
<v Speaker 1>It takes a little bit of practice, but you can

0:51:06.480 --> 0:51:11.160
<v Speaker 1>come around. And more importantly, it's important to respect people's

0:51:11.160 --> 0:51:14.800
<v Speaker 1>decisions about themselves. Whether it's a fad or a trend.

0:51:15.480 --> 0:51:18.000
<v Speaker 1>That's not your decision either. Even though you're a parent,

0:51:18.440 --> 0:51:20.279
<v Speaker 1>you don't get to decide if it's a fat or

0:51:20.320 --> 0:51:24.160
<v Speaker 1>a trend. But respecting your child's decision and respecting their

0:51:24.239 --> 0:51:27.920
<v Speaker 1>choices goes a long way into the future of your

0:51:27.920 --> 0:51:30.719
<v Speaker 1>relationship with your child. When you give them agency and

0:51:30.760 --> 0:51:33.200
<v Speaker 1>you give them license to be themselves, then it's not

0:51:33.239 --> 0:51:35.640
<v Speaker 1>going to be a problem if in five years she's

0:51:35.719 --> 0:51:39.120
<v Speaker 1>like he or she or they decides that they want

0:51:39.160 --> 0:51:41.239
<v Speaker 1>to be referred to as a girl again, or that

0:51:41.280 --> 0:51:44.040
<v Speaker 1>they're not they don't feel non binary or any of it.

0:51:44.239 --> 0:51:46.600
<v Speaker 1>But I think you are doing your child a disservice

0:51:46.640 --> 0:51:50.560
<v Speaker 1>when you're not respecting something that is not an easy

0:51:50.600 --> 0:51:53.480
<v Speaker 1>thing for them to say. It's not easy for that.

0:51:53.520 --> 0:51:55.520
<v Speaker 1>You have to think about that, you know, and you

0:51:55.560 --> 0:51:57.879
<v Speaker 1>can say you're supportive, but that you're not. You don't

0:51:57.880 --> 0:52:03.040
<v Speaker 1>feel comfortable calling them they is actually not really being supportive. Yeah.

0:52:03.080 --> 0:52:05.920
<v Speaker 1>And the other thing too, is it's not a huge

0:52:06.000 --> 0:52:09.640
<v Speaker 1>thing to give away. You know, it's not changing who

0:52:09.640 --> 0:52:13.360
<v Speaker 1>your child is fundamentally, it's not. It's not a wild

0:52:13.480 --> 0:52:15.920
<v Speaker 1>leap to say, you know what, I'm just gonna go

0:52:15.960 --> 0:52:18.359
<v Speaker 1>with this. I'm going to say they them. I might

0:52:18.440 --> 0:52:21.719
<v Speaker 1>slip up, but I'm gonna try my best. And you know,

0:52:21.960 --> 0:52:25.120
<v Speaker 1>supporting your child's in whatever way you can. And like

0:52:25.239 --> 0:52:29.440
<v Speaker 1>Chelsea said, these things can pass or maybe they won't.

0:52:29.680 --> 0:52:32.520
<v Speaker 1>And you're allowing your child to discover who they are

0:52:32.840 --> 0:52:35.920
<v Speaker 1>by supporting who they are right now, because that is

0:52:35.920 --> 0:52:38.520
<v Speaker 1>always going to change. Whether their pronouns change or not,

0:52:39.040 --> 0:52:42.000
<v Speaker 1>they're going to continue to change. Yeah, I concur with

0:52:42.080 --> 0:52:46.400
<v Speaker 1>what you're both saying. And I think it becomes challenging

0:52:46.680 --> 0:52:50.200
<v Speaker 1>when parents get really upset when some schools, like here

0:52:50.200 --> 0:52:53.359
<v Speaker 1>in Los Angeles, they'll have a whole day of discussing

0:52:53.719 --> 0:52:57.279
<v Speaker 1>gender identity and that you have choices to names you

0:52:57.440 --> 0:52:59.719
<v Speaker 1>used and you should look inward, which I think is

0:52:59.719 --> 0:53:03.200
<v Speaker 1>actually be fantastic, And some parents get all agitated about

0:53:03.200 --> 0:53:08.000
<v Speaker 1>it because they think it is making a child be confused,

0:53:08.800 --> 0:53:11.680
<v Speaker 1>but it's actually I think just informing a child and

0:53:11.880 --> 0:53:16.600
<v Speaker 1>freeing a child, like like Monica's daughter is or I

0:53:16.600 --> 0:53:19.640
<v Speaker 1>don't know if you use the words daughter here, Monica's child.

0:53:19.800 --> 0:53:22.760
<v Speaker 1>Let's say that that way. So we have a moment

0:53:23.040 --> 0:53:25.439
<v Speaker 1>where as a parent, you can take a deep breath

0:53:25.480 --> 0:53:27.800
<v Speaker 1>and say, if your child comes to you, to empower

0:53:27.880 --> 0:53:34.320
<v Speaker 1>them to explore the actual biological reality that gender identity

0:53:34.560 --> 0:53:39.240
<v Speaker 1>is independent of assigned sex at birth. People. I remember

0:53:39.239 --> 0:53:41.480
<v Speaker 1>when I was a kid where that wasn't a part

0:53:41.520 --> 0:53:46.240
<v Speaker 1>of our discussion. They suffered so much. And when schools

0:53:46.280 --> 0:53:49.400
<v Speaker 1>introduced this or this podcast or all the ways we

0:53:49.400 --> 0:53:52.680
<v Speaker 1>can just make it a part of our conversation. It

0:53:52.840 --> 0:53:57.960
<v Speaker 1>is a biological fact that gender identity develops in its

0:53:57.960 --> 0:54:02.160
<v Speaker 1>own way that can be independent in an extreme or

0:54:02.200 --> 0:54:06.120
<v Speaker 1>subtly or or aligned with your assigned sex. So to

0:54:06.400 --> 0:54:09.440
<v Speaker 1>name it as something that's very real in our lives,

0:54:09.680 --> 0:54:12.799
<v Speaker 1>I think is going to really help with everyone. Even

0:54:12.840 --> 0:54:15.799
<v Speaker 1>if your gender identity matches you're assigned sex, you're going

0:54:15.840 --> 0:54:18.799
<v Speaker 1>to understand that there are other people where that's not

0:54:18.880 --> 0:54:23.560
<v Speaker 1>the case, and instead of feeling uncomfortable like Monica feels,

0:54:23.600 --> 0:54:26.319
<v Speaker 1>which you know, we feel uncomfortable when things don't match

0:54:26.360 --> 0:54:30.959
<v Speaker 1>your expectations. So I hope listening to this conversation will

0:54:31.000 --> 0:54:36.640
<v Speaker 1>help Monica and hurt child's father to feel we're learning

0:54:36.680 --> 0:54:39.759
<v Speaker 1>something to and to be lifelong learners is a really

0:54:39.800 --> 0:54:48.200
<v Speaker 1>important stance to take. Our last color today is Katie.

0:54:48.960 --> 0:54:52.560
<v Speaker 1>Katie says, Dear Chelsea, the last nearly two years of

0:54:52.640 --> 0:54:56.800
<v Speaker 1>my life have been the most intense, devastating and transformational

0:54:56.880 --> 0:55:00.239
<v Speaker 1>time of my entire twenty one years. In sept member

0:55:00.239 --> 0:55:04.560
<v Speaker 1>of my older brother and only sibling died extremely suddenly

0:55:04.600 --> 0:55:08.560
<v Speaker 1>from a brain aneurism at two years old. Needless to say,

0:55:08.600 --> 0:55:11.560
<v Speaker 1>this loss has been extremely difficult to navigate and my

0:55:11.760 --> 0:55:15.120
<v Speaker 1>entire outlook on life has completely changed. I know you

0:55:15.160 --> 0:55:17.239
<v Speaker 1>were very young when you lost your brother, and I

0:55:17.280 --> 0:55:19.400
<v Speaker 1>feel as though we were similar in how that type

0:55:19.400 --> 0:55:22.600
<v Speaker 1>of loss affected us. After the first few months of

0:55:22.640 --> 0:55:25.280
<v Speaker 1>complete shock and fear that I would lose my parents

0:55:25.320 --> 0:55:27.920
<v Speaker 1>to heartbreak over the death of their son, I started

0:55:27.960 --> 0:55:30.400
<v Speaker 1>to get really angry at the world, which was completely

0:55:30.480 --> 0:55:32.880
<v Speaker 1>unlike my old self. I have done a lot of

0:55:32.920 --> 0:55:35.520
<v Speaker 1>therapy to overcome some of that anger, but I still

0:55:35.520 --> 0:55:39.680
<v Speaker 1>struggle daily to comprehend how my smart, wonderful and seemingly

0:55:39.800 --> 0:55:43.719
<v Speaker 1>perfectly healthy brother is gone and never coming back. I

0:55:43.760 --> 0:55:46.759
<v Speaker 1>also find meeting new people to be emotionally draining, as

0:55:46.840 --> 0:55:50.120
<v Speaker 1>sometimes the do you have siblings question comes up, and

0:55:50.400 --> 0:55:54.200
<v Speaker 1>without fail, this always makes me spiral. I feel nervous

0:55:54.200 --> 0:55:56.560
<v Speaker 1>opening up about my brother because I feel like people

0:55:56.560 --> 0:55:59.600
<v Speaker 1>in their early twenties are not equipped to talk about loss,

0:55:59.640 --> 0:56:03.400
<v Speaker 1>and it's almost taboo in some ways. What has helped

0:56:03.400 --> 0:56:06.880
<v Speaker 1>you with accepting and understanding such severe and sudden loss

0:56:06.960 --> 0:56:09.680
<v Speaker 1>at such a young age, And how do I combat

0:56:09.719 --> 0:56:11.800
<v Speaker 1>how his death has caused me to struggle with coping

0:56:11.840 --> 0:56:18.920
<v Speaker 1>and other areas of my life. Katie m Hi, Katie, Hi, Hi, Katie.

0:56:19.200 --> 0:56:23.000
<v Speaker 1>It's your lucky day because my psychiatrist Dan is here

0:56:23.040 --> 0:56:26.439
<v Speaker 1>with us as our guest today who helped guide me

0:56:26.600 --> 0:56:29.319
<v Speaker 1>through my grief and my new reality, which I had,

0:56:29.400 --> 0:56:31.680
<v Speaker 1>you know, a lot of delayed grief. So it's good

0:56:31.719 --> 0:56:35.280
<v Speaker 1>that you're talking about it not so long after it's happening,

0:56:35.400 --> 0:56:37.960
<v Speaker 1>and that you're facing these issues because it's it is

0:56:38.000 --> 0:56:42.800
<v Speaker 1>a big, big, unexpected obstacle that has happened to you,

0:56:42.800 --> 0:56:44.440
<v Speaker 1>you know, and it's not something that you're not going

0:56:44.480 --> 0:56:47.480
<v Speaker 1>to get through, but it's so difficult and only other

0:56:47.520 --> 0:56:50.360
<v Speaker 1>people who have lost the sibling can really relate or understand.

0:56:51.440 --> 0:56:53.239
<v Speaker 1>So Dan, do you want to take the lead on

0:56:53.239 --> 0:56:56.720
<v Speaker 1>this and I'll chime in sure. First of all, Katie,

0:56:56.719 --> 0:56:59.880
<v Speaker 1>thank you so much for reaching out to Chelsea to

0:57:00.520 --> 0:57:05.000
<v Speaker 1>really share your experience and share your question. I'll ask you,

0:57:05.400 --> 0:57:08.600
<v Speaker 1>when you were actually putting this question together and sending

0:57:08.600 --> 0:57:12.200
<v Speaker 1>it off, what were you feeling inside of you that

0:57:12.280 --> 0:57:15.880
<v Speaker 1>allowed you to I feel like you could articulate in

0:57:16.000 --> 0:57:18.160
<v Speaker 1>a sense of called public with it. What was going

0:57:18.200 --> 0:57:22.520
<v Speaker 1>on inside of you? It was, honestly, Chelsea, because I

0:57:22.560 --> 0:57:26.520
<v Speaker 1>watched Evolution with my mom and I don't think either

0:57:26.560 --> 0:57:29.400
<v Speaker 1>of us had ever really seen somebody talk about death

0:57:29.480 --> 0:57:33.000
<v Speaker 1>like so raw and just so open like that, And

0:57:33.240 --> 0:57:35.320
<v Speaker 1>I don't know, it just like really spoke to me

0:57:35.360 --> 0:57:37.320
<v Speaker 1>and we didn't say a word. The entire time all

0:57:37.320 --> 0:57:40.960
<v Speaker 1>we did was cry and laugh, and yeah, I don't know,

0:57:41.040 --> 0:57:43.360
<v Speaker 1>I just felt so kind of like I felt empowered

0:57:43.400 --> 0:57:44.760
<v Speaker 1>by it, and I was like, you know what, I'd

0:57:44.760 --> 0:57:46.640
<v Speaker 1>love to talk to her because there was a lot

0:57:46.640 --> 0:57:49.600
<v Speaker 1>of parallels between what you were saying and what I've

0:57:49.640 --> 0:57:53.120
<v Speaker 1>definitely been feeling, and so yeah, I definitely felt like

0:57:53.160 --> 0:57:54.760
<v Speaker 1>there was like a bit of a connection there. And

0:57:54.800 --> 0:57:56.480
<v Speaker 1>like you guys said, like, not a lot of people

0:57:56.960 --> 0:57:59.680
<v Speaker 1>go through what I've gone through and and Chelsea has,

0:57:59.800 --> 0:58:04.080
<v Speaker 1>so Yeah, definitely that was empowering for me when you

0:58:04.120 --> 0:58:08.000
<v Speaker 1>saw that someone could really look at the death of

0:58:08.000 --> 0:58:10.480
<v Speaker 1>a sibling. In this case, you know, you both shared

0:58:10.520 --> 0:58:14.080
<v Speaker 1>the loss of your brothers. Was there something in what

0:58:14.200 --> 0:58:19.600
<v Speaker 1>Chelsea shared an evolution that especially spoke to you? Yeah? Absolutely.

0:58:19.720 --> 0:58:22.640
<v Speaker 1>I think the main thing was like the anger, because

0:58:22.680 --> 0:58:25.600
<v Speaker 1>I was never an angry person. I was always really calm,

0:58:25.720 --> 0:58:28.240
<v Speaker 1>you know, quite put together and everything, and then I

0:58:28.280 --> 0:58:30.720
<v Speaker 1>started to have these feelings of anger when the numbness

0:58:30.800 --> 0:58:34.560
<v Speaker 1>started to go away, and it just was so unlike me,

0:58:34.600 --> 0:58:36.240
<v Speaker 1>and I was just so kind of mad at the

0:58:36.240 --> 0:58:39.000
<v Speaker 1>world like that. It took him because he was just

0:58:39.080 --> 0:58:43.400
<v Speaker 1>such a wonderful, kind human and he truly just like

0:58:43.880 --> 0:58:45.520
<v Speaker 1>he was just such a light in this world and

0:58:45.520 --> 0:58:48.800
<v Speaker 1>it just felt so wrong. And so the anger that

0:58:48.880 --> 0:58:50.800
<v Speaker 1>she had and how that leaks into other areas of

0:58:50.800 --> 0:58:54.120
<v Speaker 1>your life. I think that's kind of where I drew

0:58:54.160 --> 0:58:56.640
<v Speaker 1>like a lot, Like I just I just totally connected

0:58:56.680 --> 0:58:59.160
<v Speaker 1>to that because it was like, whoa, this is affecting

0:58:59.200 --> 0:59:02.480
<v Speaker 1>how I see every area of my life, not just

0:59:02.880 --> 0:59:05.360
<v Speaker 1>death and loss. It was you know, in school with

0:59:05.440 --> 0:59:09.600
<v Speaker 1>friends everything, and bitterness too when people talked about like

0:59:09.960 --> 0:59:12.360
<v Speaker 1>their siblings and it was like, I'm self aware enough

0:59:12.400 --> 0:59:14.200
<v Speaker 1>to know, like it's not right. I don't want to

0:59:14.200 --> 0:59:16.240
<v Speaker 1>be bitter about other people because they should get to

0:59:16.240 --> 0:59:19.120
<v Speaker 1>express their love for their siblings that are alive, and

0:59:19.120 --> 0:59:21.320
<v Speaker 1>and that makes me happy. I'm still happy for them,

0:59:21.440 --> 0:59:24.480
<v Speaker 1>but I couldn't help but still feel bitter, you know,

0:59:24.640 --> 0:59:28.040
<v Speaker 1>and angry. So definitely those feelings of anger that Chelsea

0:59:28.080 --> 0:59:30.960
<v Speaker 1>talked about, I I definitely connected to that a lot.

0:59:31.320 --> 0:59:33.120
<v Speaker 1>That's what made me start to realize, well, like I

0:59:33.160 --> 0:59:35.720
<v Speaker 1>gotta I have to seek out like therapy and stuff

0:59:35.760 --> 0:59:38.120
<v Speaker 1>like that, because I tried to do it myself or

0:59:38.200 --> 0:59:40.960
<v Speaker 1>I think the first eight months, and yeah, it just

0:59:41.080 --> 0:59:43.919
<v Speaker 1>wasn't working. And I could just see down the line

0:59:43.920 --> 0:59:46.040
<v Speaker 1>it would just start to get worse. I want to

0:59:46.040 --> 0:59:47.720
<v Speaker 1>just jump in and just say, you have such a

0:59:47.800 --> 0:59:50.440
<v Speaker 1>huge opportunity for growth right now. For you to be

0:59:50.520 --> 0:59:54.360
<v Speaker 1>facing this so soon after it happened means like you

0:59:54.440 --> 0:59:56.640
<v Speaker 1>have such a bigger advantage. Like I didn't face this.

0:59:56.760 --> 0:59:58.880
<v Speaker 1>I went thirty years without being able to deal with

0:59:58.880 --> 1:00:02.480
<v Speaker 1>my emotions. You know. So you're so young and you're vibrant,

1:00:02.520 --> 1:00:03.960
<v Speaker 1>and you're going to be able to get through this.

1:00:04.040 --> 1:00:06.600
<v Speaker 1>And I just want to say something that's so important

1:00:06.600 --> 1:00:08.520
<v Speaker 1>for you to hear. It's like you're when you think

1:00:08.560 --> 1:00:10.720
<v Speaker 1>of how amazing your brother was and what a light

1:00:10.760 --> 1:00:13.960
<v Speaker 1>he was in this world. He would hate to see

1:00:14.000 --> 1:00:16.600
<v Speaker 1>you in pain. He would hate to see you feeling bitter.

1:00:16.920 --> 1:00:20.280
<v Speaker 1>He would not want that. So in honor of him,

1:00:20.720 --> 1:00:22.640
<v Speaker 1>you've got to do the work to get yourself out

1:00:22.680 --> 1:00:24.720
<v Speaker 1>of that anger and bitterness, because you want to be

1:00:24.760 --> 1:00:28.080
<v Speaker 1>able to celebrate a life that he had and live

1:00:28.160 --> 1:00:30.800
<v Speaker 1>your life with him in it, in honor of him

1:00:30.920 --> 1:00:33.080
<v Speaker 1>and with him, because he's still with you. You know,

1:00:33.440 --> 1:00:36.520
<v Speaker 1>just because he's he's gone doesn't mean he's gone from you.

1:00:36.880 --> 1:00:40.080
<v Speaker 1>He's still within you and your parents, and that is

1:00:40.120 --> 1:00:42.480
<v Speaker 1>a beautiful thing and that is the light that you

1:00:42.520 --> 1:00:45.240
<v Speaker 1>should think about getting to spread when you move forward

1:00:45.280 --> 1:00:48.280
<v Speaker 1>in your life. Yeah. Absolutely, And he truly would be

1:00:48.360 --> 1:00:51.200
<v Speaker 1>so unhappy. He would be so upset if he saw

1:00:51.320 --> 1:00:54.040
<v Speaker 1>like this affect us long term because again, like just

1:00:54.080 --> 1:00:56.320
<v Speaker 1>such a selfless human being and he just would not

1:00:56.960 --> 1:00:59.000
<v Speaker 1>He would not he be angry with us. To be honest,

1:00:59.040 --> 1:01:01.560
<v Speaker 1>if you if we at it get us down for

1:01:01.640 --> 1:01:04.120
<v Speaker 1>a really long time, he would not be happy with us,

1:01:04.160 --> 1:01:10.360
<v Speaker 1>for sure. It's such a beautiful invitation, Katie, that you're

1:01:10.400 --> 1:01:13.520
<v Speaker 1>inviting us to really look at this question what helped?

1:01:13.640 --> 1:01:17.439
<v Speaker 1>And Chelsea, you're bringing up, you know, this notion of

1:01:17.440 --> 1:01:20.440
<v Speaker 1>of what the sibling with the brother would actually want

1:01:20.560 --> 1:01:23.919
<v Speaker 1>for you. The experience of grief, which is the word

1:01:23.920 --> 1:01:27.520
<v Speaker 1>we use for when someone we love that's really important

1:01:27.520 --> 1:01:30.000
<v Speaker 1>in our life dies or goes away and we can't

1:01:30.000 --> 1:01:35.160
<v Speaker 1>reach them. That loss is huge. So grief goes through

1:01:35.240 --> 1:01:40.360
<v Speaker 1>stages and it really invites you to bring into awareness

1:01:40.600 --> 1:01:43.720
<v Speaker 1>all the different feelings you're having. And as Chelsea points out,

1:01:44.040 --> 1:01:46.160
<v Speaker 1>you know you are doing that, Katie, and your your

1:01:46.520 --> 1:01:50.160
<v Speaker 1>notion of self awareness is really important and there are

1:01:50.200 --> 1:01:52.280
<v Speaker 1>there are things you can do to expand that. You know,

1:01:52.280 --> 1:01:55.640
<v Speaker 1>with Chelsea we would do meditation in particularly this thing

1:01:55.640 --> 1:01:58.000
<v Speaker 1>called the wheel of awareness. You can get this this

1:01:58.000 --> 1:02:01.800
<v Speaker 1>book called Aware or Becoming Aware, the workbook where you

1:02:01.840 --> 1:02:05.160
<v Speaker 1>will learn to actually enrich that ability to be aware

1:02:05.280 --> 1:02:08.160
<v Speaker 1>and that can help the grief process. To just let

1:02:08.240 --> 1:02:11.760
<v Speaker 1>the anger there be in awareness. You don't have to

1:02:11.800 --> 1:02:14.360
<v Speaker 1>do anything with it. It can just teach you something.

1:02:15.040 --> 1:02:17.880
<v Speaker 1>The other emotions that are really basic when something like

1:02:17.920 --> 1:02:22.920
<v Speaker 1>this happens our sadness and fear. So a loss like

1:02:22.960 --> 1:02:25.840
<v Speaker 1>this at a young age that can rock your world

1:02:25.920 --> 1:02:29.720
<v Speaker 1>because you don't expect someone young to die. You expect

1:02:29.720 --> 1:02:34.240
<v Speaker 1>someone older, way older to die. So when something unexpected

1:02:34.280 --> 1:02:36.400
<v Speaker 1>like that happens, it can lead to fear. It can

1:02:36.480 --> 1:02:39.240
<v Speaker 1>lead to sadness, and it can lead to anger where

1:02:39.240 --> 1:02:42.520
<v Speaker 1>the fear is like, oh my god, things aren't safe, nothing,

1:02:42.560 --> 1:02:45.240
<v Speaker 1>I can't rely on anything. The sadness is there was

1:02:45.280 --> 1:02:48.280
<v Speaker 1>a connection that's ripped from me, and I have such

1:02:48.280 --> 1:02:50.960
<v Speaker 1>a longing to be with my brother, but it's just

1:02:51.280 --> 1:02:54.320
<v Speaker 1>it's not there. When in fact, it's just like Chelsea said,

1:02:54.600 --> 1:02:57.760
<v Speaker 1>he's inside you, but him being alive in his body

1:02:57.840 --> 1:03:01.640
<v Speaker 1>now that's changed. So you want to deal with that feeling.

1:03:01.640 --> 1:03:03.440
<v Speaker 1>You can't just call him up and talk to his

1:03:03.520 --> 1:03:06.560
<v Speaker 1>actual self. You can deal with the inner self of

1:03:06.600 --> 1:03:09.920
<v Speaker 1>your brother. And the anger, you know, is about something

1:03:10.560 --> 1:03:14.120
<v Speaker 1>is wrong that needs to be right. It right. So

1:03:14.160 --> 1:03:18.400
<v Speaker 1>anger is like this drive to correct, you know. Sadness

1:03:18.520 --> 1:03:21.240
<v Speaker 1>is like a drive to connect, and in many ways,

1:03:21.280 --> 1:03:23.840
<v Speaker 1>fear is a drive to protect right. Those are the

1:03:23.880 --> 1:03:26.840
<v Speaker 1>three in the brain. They're deep, deep in the brain,

1:03:26.920 --> 1:03:30.160
<v Speaker 1>so they're really really foundational. As you're pointing out, the

1:03:30.240 --> 1:03:33.960
<v Speaker 1>anger then starts spreading over all these things. So the

1:03:34.000 --> 1:03:37.720
<v Speaker 1>idea of finding a practice, whether it's in therapy or

1:03:37.840 --> 1:03:41.160
<v Speaker 1>doing like a meditation that gives you time to just

1:03:41.320 --> 1:03:45.800
<v Speaker 1>be with your emotions. And then the grief process. Once

1:03:45.880 --> 1:03:48.800
<v Speaker 1>you give yourself that respect to just feel what you feel,

1:03:49.360 --> 1:03:52.920
<v Speaker 1>talk about it right in a journal about it, do meditative,

1:03:52.960 --> 1:03:56.240
<v Speaker 1>reflect the reflection on it, then it will have its

1:03:56.320 --> 1:04:01.120
<v Speaker 1>natural course. Don't worry about the timing, but do give

1:04:01.160 --> 1:04:04.560
<v Speaker 1>respect to all the emotions are there, and they will

1:04:04.600 --> 1:04:08.520
<v Speaker 1>then take their natural path. And in many ways, grief

1:04:09.000 --> 1:04:13.240
<v Speaker 1>as it goes forward becomes meaning making. That is to say,

1:04:13.360 --> 1:04:17.440
<v Speaker 1>I didn't plan for my brother to die, but my

1:04:17.560 --> 1:04:21.640
<v Speaker 1>brother would want me to actually make sense of how

1:04:21.680 --> 1:04:25.480
<v Speaker 1>this has impacted me. And as Chelsea has done, you know,

1:04:25.640 --> 1:04:30.480
<v Speaker 1>with her wonderful work, Now to take a loss that

1:04:30.640 --> 1:04:34.040
<v Speaker 1>really as as you shared with the world, Chelsea, you know,

1:04:34.400 --> 1:04:37.480
<v Speaker 1>your way of dealing with that pain was to shut

1:04:37.480 --> 1:04:40.560
<v Speaker 1>it off the emotions. But now to share with the world.

1:04:40.880 --> 1:04:44.200
<v Speaker 1>You don't know, Katie, how the sadness and and and

1:04:44.360 --> 1:04:49.560
<v Speaker 1>really profound loss of your brother dying unexpectedly like this.

1:04:50.080 --> 1:04:53.200
<v Speaker 1>It was no one's fault and urisms happened. All the

1:04:53.240 --> 1:04:56.440
<v Speaker 1>ways that you can bring the emotional learning from this

1:04:57.160 --> 1:04:59.960
<v Speaker 1>will be a meaning that you can make. And there's

1:05:00.000 --> 1:05:03.520
<v Speaker 1>a number of things about hope and about joy that

1:05:03.960 --> 1:05:06.000
<v Speaker 1>there are wonderful books on this, as it called a

1:05:06.040 --> 1:05:07.440
<v Speaker 1>book called the Book of Hope and a Book of

1:05:07.520 --> 1:05:10.040
<v Speaker 1>Joy that I think you'd love because what it says

1:05:10.160 --> 1:05:12.680
<v Speaker 1>is that the sorrows in the world, whether it's a

1:05:12.720 --> 1:05:16.400
<v Speaker 1>personal loss or the loss and biodiversity, what we're facing,

1:05:16.480 --> 1:05:19.600
<v Speaker 1>the climate, or the challenges of social justice, all these

1:05:19.680 --> 1:05:23.400
<v Speaker 1>can get us all angry, sad, fearful. And what we

1:05:23.440 --> 1:05:26.440
<v Speaker 1>want to do is take those emotions and allow ourselves

1:05:26.680 --> 1:05:30.400
<v Speaker 1>to feel them fully, but then really keep hope alive,

1:05:30.440 --> 1:05:33.240
<v Speaker 1>with kind of active hope that A writer named Joe

1:05:33.240 --> 1:05:36.800
<v Speaker 1>Animasy calls it active hope, where you're really turning that

1:05:36.960 --> 1:05:40.480
<v Speaker 1>pain into actually something positive in the world, and not

1:05:40.520 --> 1:05:42.800
<v Speaker 1>only having hope, but having a sense of joy. And

1:05:42.840 --> 1:05:46.000
<v Speaker 1>I think if your brother were watching us now and

1:05:46.040 --> 1:05:51.600
<v Speaker 1>he said, my dear sister Katie can hold on to

1:05:51.760 --> 1:05:55.680
<v Speaker 1>hope and can be joyful in this life, what would

1:05:55.720 --> 1:05:59.280
<v Speaker 1>he feel about that? Hmm. Yeah, that's a really good point,

1:05:59.400 --> 1:06:03.480
<v Speaker 1>aliceonven need Tears, That's really good. Yeah, I I honestly

1:06:03.560 --> 1:06:06.040
<v Speaker 1>like you. You bring up a really good point too,

1:06:06.160 --> 1:06:08.760
<v Speaker 1>and the fact that like I have grown like so

1:06:08.840 --> 1:06:11.360
<v Speaker 1>much from this loss, and like the way I view

1:06:11.400 --> 1:06:15.320
<v Speaker 1>the world in good ways to and and my desire

1:06:15.360 --> 1:06:17.360
<v Speaker 1>to make my parents proud, even though I know I

1:06:17.360 --> 1:06:19.680
<v Speaker 1>would make them proud if I did nothing, because they're

1:06:19.720 --> 1:06:22.720
<v Speaker 1>just the most wonderful people in the entire world. But yeah,

1:06:22.800 --> 1:06:25.360
<v Speaker 1>like he really has allowed me to see the world

1:06:25.400 --> 1:06:27.920
<v Speaker 1>so much, so much clearer, and I just feel like

1:06:28.000 --> 1:06:30.960
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to do such great things because I've grown

1:06:31.000 --> 1:06:34.040
<v Speaker 1>so much from this. And yeah, you're right, like it

1:06:34.120 --> 1:06:36.439
<v Speaker 1>is it is a choice to to wake up every

1:06:36.440 --> 1:06:39.880
<v Speaker 1>single day and you know, choose happiness despite all the pain,

1:06:40.360 --> 1:06:42.480
<v Speaker 1>and that's what I've really been working on is just

1:06:42.640 --> 1:06:44.959
<v Speaker 1>choosing to be happy because at the end of the day,

1:06:45.240 --> 1:06:48.440
<v Speaker 1>you know, like the random cruelty of him being taken away,

1:06:48.800 --> 1:06:51.040
<v Speaker 1>it has to be a choice for me to to

1:06:51.240 --> 1:06:53.160
<v Speaker 1>keep going and to do it for him and to

1:06:53.200 --> 1:06:55.680
<v Speaker 1>do it for my parents. And I find that that's

1:06:55.720 --> 1:06:58.840
<v Speaker 1>really helped me too, is like let letting myself feel

1:06:58.880 --> 1:07:01.919
<v Speaker 1>those emotions and and yeah, growing from it, like you said,

1:07:01.960 --> 1:07:04.840
<v Speaker 1>like it it is. There's power in that. There's also

1:07:05.000 --> 1:07:09.120
<v Speaker 1>something Dan taught me. Losing a somebody is like a robbery.

1:07:09.360 --> 1:07:12.560
<v Speaker 1>You've been robbed, you know, and that's how it feels.

1:07:12.640 --> 1:07:16.120
<v Speaker 1>It feels you're violated and you cannot make sense of it.

1:07:16.520 --> 1:07:20.040
<v Speaker 1>But are you going to spend your entire life harboring

1:07:20.120 --> 1:07:22.960
<v Speaker 1>such anger towards those robbers? You know what I mean?

1:07:23.080 --> 1:07:26.400
<v Speaker 1>Because are you going to spend your energy doing that? No,

1:07:26.720 --> 1:07:29.040
<v Speaker 1>you're not. You want to be a light for your parents.

1:07:29.200 --> 1:07:31.440
<v Speaker 1>You want to be helped your parents heal. It's not

1:07:31.480 --> 1:07:34.800
<v Speaker 1>your responsibility, but you can, you know, you can be

1:07:34.840 --> 1:07:37.640
<v Speaker 1>a light for them as well. And when you're talking

1:07:37.680 --> 1:07:40.720
<v Speaker 1>about emotions coming up, something that Dan and I talked

1:07:40.720 --> 1:07:43.240
<v Speaker 1>about a lot was like, where are you feeling something,

1:07:43.320 --> 1:07:45.200
<v Speaker 1>you know, are you feeling it in your chest? Do

1:07:45.240 --> 1:07:47.600
<v Speaker 1>you feel it in your stomach? Being in touch with

1:07:47.640 --> 1:07:51.120
<v Speaker 1>your body and respecting yourself enough to sit with it,

1:07:51.160 --> 1:07:54.360
<v Speaker 1>you know, when you're overcome, you're allowed to go outside

1:07:54.440 --> 1:07:57.520
<v Speaker 1>and cry and sit there for twenty minutes because once

1:07:57.560 --> 1:08:00.480
<v Speaker 1>you extinguish it, there is a lightness of being that

1:08:00.720 --> 1:08:03.960
<v Speaker 1>that happens. And it's when you resist your emotions where

1:08:03.960 --> 1:08:06.440
<v Speaker 1>you get into trouble. So it's okay to feel all

1:08:06.440 --> 1:08:09.360
<v Speaker 1>those emotions and let them out and know, okay, oh

1:08:09.440 --> 1:08:12.360
<v Speaker 1>I'm feeling Okay, I'm feeling this. Sometimes it takes thirty

1:08:12.400 --> 1:08:14.400
<v Speaker 1>seconds just to sit with yourself, and sometimes you need

1:08:14.440 --> 1:08:17.160
<v Speaker 1>an hour. Whatever it is you need, you know you

1:08:17.200 --> 1:08:20.479
<v Speaker 1>need and you'll know. But but being respectful of that

1:08:20.560 --> 1:08:24.599
<v Speaker 1>so you're not repressing or suppressing anything so that it's

1:08:24.640 --> 1:08:27.120
<v Speaker 1>not creeping up on you later. You know that you're

1:08:27.200 --> 1:08:30.439
<v Speaker 1>experiencing everything and and thinking about where it is in

1:08:30.439 --> 1:08:33.679
<v Speaker 1>your body, like, oh, I'm heavy in my chest right now, Okay,

1:08:33.720 --> 1:08:36.479
<v Speaker 1>I feel like I'm gonna cry. Okay, now I'm gonna cry.

1:08:36.640 --> 1:08:40.360
<v Speaker 1>It sounds almost pedantic in a way, but it's so

1:08:40.880 --> 1:08:45.040
<v Speaker 1>important to respect yourself and your emotions, and that's how

1:08:45.120 --> 1:08:47.920
<v Speaker 1>you get through something like this in a healthy way,

1:08:48.000 --> 1:08:50.880
<v Speaker 1>because you are going to be in a place where

1:08:51.280 --> 1:08:54.400
<v Speaker 1>the pain is no longer as acute as it feels today.

1:08:54.640 --> 1:08:57.680
<v Speaker 1>You are, That's what happens with life. You're gonna move on.

1:08:57.960 --> 1:08:59.760
<v Speaker 1>There are going to be moments where you're gonna feel

1:09:00.080 --> 1:09:03.080
<v Speaker 1>dream joy again, and you may already have, and that's

1:09:03.439 --> 1:09:06.559
<v Speaker 1>part of healing. That's part of healing because you're still here.

1:09:07.040 --> 1:09:10.960
<v Speaker 1>So everything that is coming up, it's just you know,

1:09:11.040 --> 1:09:13.240
<v Speaker 1>you obviously want to be with a therapist and talking

1:09:13.320 --> 1:09:15.439
<v Speaker 1>with somebody too. You need that kind of support right

1:09:15.479 --> 1:09:18.519
<v Speaker 1>now for sure. Are you seeing someone right now? Yeah? Yeah,

1:09:18.560 --> 1:09:22.520
<v Speaker 1>I have a therapist, Yeah yeah, and she's really great. Yeah.

1:09:22.840 --> 1:09:24.920
<v Speaker 1>So all of those things are helpful, and just you know,

1:09:25.200 --> 1:09:28.559
<v Speaker 1>remembering that there is no wrong feeling or emotion. There's

1:09:28.600 --> 1:09:30.920
<v Speaker 1>nothing wrong. This is all just a process and it

1:09:30.960 --> 1:09:35.680
<v Speaker 1>doesn't last forever. No, that's really great. Thank you, And

1:09:35.720 --> 1:09:37.360
<v Speaker 1>I just want to say thank you to you as well,

1:09:37.400 --> 1:09:40.599
<v Speaker 1>because honestly, yeah, like listening to your podcast and watching

1:09:40.600 --> 1:09:42.680
<v Speaker 1>your stand up has really helped me a lot, and

1:09:42.720 --> 1:09:45.280
<v Speaker 1>I just think it's so brave of you. And yeah, again,

1:09:45.320 --> 1:09:48.320
<v Speaker 1>it really empowered me as well. Oh thank you. I'm

1:09:48.360 --> 1:09:50.000
<v Speaker 1>so glad you called in and I'm so glad we

1:09:50.040 --> 1:09:52.400
<v Speaker 1>had Dan here today for you, Katie. It was so

1:09:52.479 --> 1:09:54.160
<v Speaker 1>nice to meet you as a little Dan. Thank you

1:09:54.200 --> 1:09:57.120
<v Speaker 1>so much, Katie. Nice to meet you. Thank you so much.

1:09:57.800 --> 1:10:07.600
<v Speaker 1>Thank you, Thanks, Katie, Bye bye bye. Wow? What is sweetie? Wow? Okay,

1:10:07.760 --> 1:10:12.240
<v Speaker 1>Well that was quite a heavy episode today. It was

1:10:12.960 --> 1:10:16.240
<v Speaker 1>I do have one little extra thing as we move

1:10:16.280 --> 1:10:20.200
<v Speaker 1>into this close. Kelsey emailed us and said, I recently

1:10:20.240 --> 1:10:22.640
<v Speaker 1>went through a massive life change which led me to

1:10:22.760 --> 1:10:26.240
<v Speaker 1>changing careers, moving states, and finally getting out of a

1:10:26.280 --> 1:10:29.680
<v Speaker 1>long term toxic relationship. I read life will be the

1:10:29.680 --> 1:10:31.559
<v Speaker 1>death of me, and it inspired me to get back

1:10:31.600 --> 1:10:34.000
<v Speaker 1>into therapy and really try to delve into the deep

1:10:34.120 --> 1:10:38.400
<v Speaker 1>childhood trauma. Your story resonated with me. I was sitting

1:10:38.400 --> 1:10:42.200
<v Speaker 1>outside my therapist office today and debated going in and

1:10:42.280 --> 1:10:44.519
<v Speaker 1>was questioning whether this was where I needed to be.

1:10:45.240 --> 1:10:47.479
<v Speaker 1>I put out into the world that I needed a sign.

1:10:48.160 --> 1:10:52.280
<v Speaker 1>I went into therapy and halfway through, my therapist pulled

1:10:52.280 --> 1:10:55.200
<v Speaker 1>out an orange out of her bag, tossed it to

1:10:55.240 --> 1:10:58.559
<v Speaker 1>me and said, I think you need this today. I

1:10:58.720 --> 1:11:02.200
<v Speaker 1>stared at her in doc and then subsequently lost it

1:11:02.640 --> 1:11:04.600
<v Speaker 1>and then had to explain that I was inspired to

1:11:04.600 --> 1:11:07.360
<v Speaker 1>get back into therapy after reading Chelsea's book, and that

1:11:07.400 --> 1:11:09.960
<v Speaker 1>someone tossing me an orange was an unexpected sign of

1:11:10.000 --> 1:11:14.080
<v Speaker 1>compassion when I needed it the most, and orange unraveled

1:11:14.120 --> 1:11:16.519
<v Speaker 1>me and gave me the sign that I'm exactly where

1:11:16.600 --> 1:11:19.160
<v Speaker 1>I need to be. Our journeys are not the same,

1:11:19.200 --> 1:11:21.720
<v Speaker 1>but thank you for sharing yours and inspiring me to

1:11:21.800 --> 1:11:24.560
<v Speaker 1>heal so that I can find my happy and success

1:11:24.600 --> 1:11:29.200
<v Speaker 1>as well. It's already working. Much love and admiration, Kelsey.

1:11:29.240 --> 1:11:33.519
<v Speaker 1>Oh my god, that makes me cry. Dan, can you

1:11:33.600 --> 1:11:41.519
<v Speaker 1>believe that? No, that's incredible, That is so beautiful. I

1:11:41.560 --> 1:11:44.080
<v Speaker 1>was sitting the other day I got some shitty news.

1:11:44.240 --> 1:11:47.599
<v Speaker 1>I was sitting the other day with Joe and we

1:11:47.600 --> 1:11:50.360
<v Speaker 1>were somewhere. Oh yeah, it was when I had to

1:11:50.400 --> 1:11:52.040
<v Speaker 1>go to the hospital. And when the next day we

1:11:52.040 --> 1:11:53.759
<v Speaker 1>were sitting down, I was just like, oh my god,

1:11:54.120 --> 1:11:56.320
<v Speaker 1>what's wrong with me? I'm so stressed out. I landed

1:11:56.320 --> 1:11:58.600
<v Speaker 1>myself in the hospital. Like I didn't think I was

1:11:58.640 --> 1:12:01.280
<v Speaker 1>stressed out. And we were just sitting in this restaurant

1:12:01.479 --> 1:12:04.200
<v Speaker 1>and at a hotel, and I was just looking at

1:12:04.280 --> 1:12:06.479
<v Speaker 1>him like just so confused about where I was in

1:12:06.520 --> 1:12:08.439
<v Speaker 1>my life, Like I thought I was doing so great

1:12:08.560 --> 1:12:10.479
<v Speaker 1>and I was on top of everything and I had

1:12:10.560 --> 1:12:13.599
<v Speaker 1>learned how to deal with everything. And I looked down

1:12:13.720 --> 1:12:17.080
<v Speaker 1>and there's this whole tree of oranges right behind him,

1:12:17.920 --> 1:12:20.600
<v Speaker 1>and I was like, oh my god, and I go

1:12:20.760 --> 1:12:23.680
<v Speaker 1>look and he's like, see, you're okay, You're okay, You're

1:12:23.720 --> 1:12:28.280
<v Speaker 1>always okay. It's just a little hiccup. So I love that. Oh, Kelsey,

1:12:28.360 --> 1:12:30.559
<v Speaker 1>thanks for sharing that with us. That was so nice,

1:12:30.600 --> 1:12:35.040
<v Speaker 1>so emotional. I love it. Yeah, Okay, let's take a

1:12:35.120 --> 1:12:37.120
<v Speaker 1>quick break because I just I have a new loofa

1:12:37.200 --> 1:12:39.160
<v Speaker 1>that I want to try out on Catherine. I'm sorry,

1:12:39.200 --> 1:12:44.519
<v Speaker 1>does that sound like workplace? A work? Workplace professionalism? Times

1:12:44.520 --> 1:12:47.560
<v Speaker 1>have changed and someone has to respect that, and that

1:12:47.720 --> 1:12:50.800
<v Speaker 1>someone is me, that's right. So I apologize Catherine about

1:12:50.840 --> 1:12:54.200
<v Speaker 1>the loofah comment. It's okay, I love, I love, I'm glad.

1:12:54.200 --> 1:12:58.240
<v Speaker 1>I apologize to you do about the loofah comment. Gosh,

1:12:58.439 --> 1:13:00.640
<v Speaker 1>that's your husband right in front of and I know

1:13:00.760 --> 1:13:03.200
<v Speaker 1>it's okay. He wouldn't mind. It'll be fine, it'll be fine.

1:13:03.600 --> 1:13:10.479
<v Speaker 1>Let's take a break, Okay, Dan, what advice do you

1:13:10.520 --> 1:13:13.760
<v Speaker 1>need for me? Well, I asked you earlier, you know,

1:13:13.840 --> 1:13:19.680
<v Speaker 1>how do you keep that lifelong learning approach going? And

1:13:19.720 --> 1:13:21.920
<v Speaker 1>the related thing was how did you let yourself be

1:13:22.080 --> 1:13:26.680
<v Speaker 1>open to really facing your emotional life? There? And then

1:13:27.439 --> 1:13:31.320
<v Speaker 1>a bonus question for you, which from our relationship you'll

1:13:31.720 --> 1:13:36.040
<v Speaker 1>probably think this is Dan is never shortwinded everybody is

1:13:36.600 --> 1:13:41.160
<v Speaker 1>how did humor enter your life? So we can try

1:13:41.200 --> 1:13:44.000
<v Speaker 1>to be inspired, not to be funny stand ups like

1:13:44.120 --> 1:13:46.760
<v Speaker 1>you are, but to just make sure that in the

1:13:46.800 --> 1:13:52.320
<v Speaker 1>face of all the challenges we keep our humor alive. Yeah. God,

1:13:52.360 --> 1:13:53.920
<v Speaker 1>I don't know if you can. I don't know if

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<v Speaker 1>that's a learned thing or if that's inherent. You know,

1:13:57.360 --> 1:13:59.719
<v Speaker 1>I think I was born with that because my family

1:13:59.800 --> 1:14:02.960
<v Speaker 1>was just we're all like that, Like sarcasm was our

1:14:03.200 --> 1:14:06.200
<v Speaker 1>was our function, you know, like everything was sarcastic to

1:14:06.280 --> 1:14:11.679
<v Speaker 1>deal with the lameness like we just are were constantly like, oh,

1:14:11.720 --> 1:14:15.120
<v Speaker 1>like our parents were lame. Growing up was just lame.

1:14:15.240 --> 1:14:17.960
<v Speaker 1>Our birthdays, our parents trying to like celebrate our birthdays

1:14:18.040 --> 1:14:20.719
<v Speaker 1>was lame. So we just had these built in senses

1:14:20.720 --> 1:14:22.920
<v Speaker 1>of humor to cope with it. But I don't I

1:14:22.960 --> 1:14:25.160
<v Speaker 1>can't really speak to whether or not you can. You know,

1:14:25.280 --> 1:14:27.640
<v Speaker 1>adopt it. I think it's important to remember not to

1:14:27.680 --> 1:14:31.479
<v Speaker 1>take yourself so seriously. Right, You're not the only person

1:14:31.520 --> 1:14:35.000
<v Speaker 1>on this planet. There's a million billions of things going

1:14:35.040 --> 1:14:37.840
<v Speaker 1>on around you, and you're just What you want to

1:14:37.880 --> 1:14:41.839
<v Speaker 1>bring is light and happiness and joyfulness right to the table,

1:14:41.920 --> 1:14:44.280
<v Speaker 1>to the energy field around you, to the people that

1:14:44.320 --> 1:14:48.080
<v Speaker 1>you come in contact with. So I think humor plays

1:14:48.120 --> 1:14:51.680
<v Speaker 1>into that. To be light and happy and set a

1:14:51.760 --> 1:14:55.720
<v Speaker 1>tone and inspire people to be open and yeah, I

1:14:55.760 --> 1:14:58.920
<v Speaker 1>guess you know, just try not to take yourself so seriously.

1:14:59.520 --> 1:15:01.759
<v Speaker 1>You gotta be able to laugh at all the bad

1:15:01.800 --> 1:15:05.040
<v Speaker 1>stuff too, because there's humor and everything. Sometimes you have

1:15:05.080 --> 1:15:08.280
<v Speaker 1>to look a little harder for it, but it's there, beautiful.

1:15:09.040 --> 1:15:11.200
<v Speaker 1>Well that's great because that actually relates to the other

1:15:11.280 --> 1:15:14.080
<v Speaker 1>questions that you've already answered. You know how to keep

1:15:14.080 --> 1:15:17.439
<v Speaker 1>those questions going and really keep an open mind to

1:15:17.560 --> 1:15:22.120
<v Speaker 1>grow throughout life. So, Chelsea, thank you so much. Catherine,

1:15:22.160 --> 1:15:24.000
<v Speaker 1>thank you so much. It's really an honor to be

1:15:24.080 --> 1:15:28.080
<v Speaker 1>here with you and really enjoy to speak with all

1:15:28.120 --> 1:15:30.920
<v Speaker 1>the people who have questions today, and I feel very

1:15:31.000 --> 1:15:33.240
<v Speaker 1>privileged to be here. It's the thing. Oh, thank you

1:15:33.320 --> 1:15:35.439
<v Speaker 1>so much. Dan, I know that you usually charge for

1:15:35.479 --> 1:15:40.719
<v Speaker 1>this kind of advice, so I appreciate you volunteering your services. Well.

1:15:40.880 --> 1:15:45.240
<v Speaker 1>I feel like I'm enriched, just like working with you, Chelsea.

1:15:45.600 --> 1:15:49.120
<v Speaker 1>This has really been a great conversation today. Thank you awesome.

1:15:49.160 --> 1:15:51.320
<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much, Dan, I really appreciate it. I'll

1:15:51.320 --> 1:15:57.280
<v Speaker 1>see you soon. Great, thanks Catherine, thank you so much

1:15:57.360 --> 1:15:59.760
<v Speaker 1>for tuning in to Dear Chelsea season two. We'll be

1:15:59.800 --> 1:16:02.519
<v Speaker 1>back with another season May twelfth. See you then.