1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's 3 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 2: Chuck and Jerry's here too, and this is stuff you 4 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:21,120 Speaker 2: should know. This is I guess, a timely topical true 5 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:22,599 Speaker 2: crime edition The Three. 6 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: T's CooA Alert. Yeah, I feel I should sound the 7 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: clacks on on this one. Yeah, we'reishing a CoA on 8 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:34,920 Speaker 1: this one, A pretty a pretty robust one because a 9 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 1: this is something we don't do a lot, which is 10 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 1: tackle true crime and almost real time. As far as 11 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 1: the fact that none of this is settled, the alleged crimes, 12 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 1: We're probably gonna say alleged a lot because there's not 13 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:53,239 Speaker 1: even been court dates a lot of times for some 14 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: of these cases where we're you know, we're talking about 15 00:00:56,120 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: potentially six murders in three states by a group that 16 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: may or may not have done it, that may or 17 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 1: may not be a cult. So just a big CoA there. 18 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:08,039 Speaker 1: This is one of the true crimes where like neither 19 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:09,399 Speaker 1: one of us are going to be like, well, here's 20 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 1: my theory on this, because just who knows, this has 21 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:14,960 Speaker 1: got to play out first, And the other big CoA 22 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 1: is a lot of the sort of a disproportionate amount 23 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 1: of members of the Zizians who are going to be 24 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,400 Speaker 1: talking about are members of the trans community. And it's 25 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: just one of the sort of facts of the case. 26 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 1: It's obviously no suggestion or judgment on our part of 27 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 1: the trans community, but it seems to be a big 28 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 1: sort of part of this group of people who got together. 29 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: So just kind of keep all that in mind as 30 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: we lay all this out there. 31 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 2: Right, Nice word, Chuck, Thanks for that. Yeah, So, like 32 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 2: you said, we're talking about the Zizzians. How do you 33 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 2: hear about this? This is your pick, you know what. 34 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 1: I have no idea and even went to look to 35 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 1: see if somebody has suggested it, and no one had. 36 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 1: I think I might have just seen a news story 37 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 1: and been like, wait a minute, this is this is 38 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: something that hasn't been attend Netflix series yet, right, so 39 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 1: it must be super super current, which it is. 40 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 2: My theory is that the Great Gazoo said doe on 41 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 2: the Zizian's dome dome, and you were like, I should 42 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 2: do one on the Zizzians. 43 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:16,519 Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks for bringing a joke into this thing. 44 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 2: So the Zizians are called such because they center around Zizz, 45 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 2: a trans woman who is often portrayed as the leader 46 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:29,800 Speaker 2: of this cult, and I mean you can make a 47 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 2: pretty fair case that at the very least she's the 48 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:34,520 Speaker 2: leader of the most influential member, because the whole thing's 49 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:38,640 Speaker 2: named after her. Although we should say that this group 50 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 2: of people do not call themselves the Zizians. That was 51 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 2: a name that was given to them by somebody who's 52 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 2: critical of them, an anonymous person who's critical of them. 53 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 3: Yeah. 54 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 2: But Zizz herself, we know, was born in nineteen ninety 55 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 2: one in Fairbanks, Alaska, And like the other people that 56 00:02:56,280 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 2: she attracts into her orbit, she was brilliant, I mean, 57 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 2: very precocious as far as like working on computers goes, 58 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 2: as far as mathematics goes. I think by the time 59 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 2: she was at the University of Fairbanks in Alaska, she 60 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 2: had internships at both Oracles, the cloud computing company, and NASA. 61 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 2: So I mean like she had pretty great resume, I guess, 62 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 2: is what you'd say if you're on LinkedIn. 63 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. And like you said, this is going 64 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: to be sort of a common thing with everyone who 65 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 1: got together with Ziz and the others. So in college, 66 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: Ziz started learning about what's called the rationalist movement or 67 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 1: the rationalist community, which were also very science minded people. 68 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 1: They kind of gathered around Silicon Valley. And one of 69 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 1: the big things with rationalism is and a lot of 70 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: this stuff makes sense, like a lot of the stuff 71 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 1: that they're laying down, like, Hey, let's use logical tools 72 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 1: to just always question ourselves. Let's not get set in 73 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 1: our way of thinking about anything. Let's always revise what 74 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 1: we're thinking about everything. And one of the key people here, 75 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 1: one of the names you'll heal early and then later on, 76 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 1: as a guy named Eliezer Yudkowski, who is an AI 77 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 1: researcher who is kind of doing something different than what 78 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 1: a lot of AI researchers are doing in that he 79 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:20,239 Speaker 1: has devoted much of his career to basically saying, hey, warning, 80 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 1: this could really go wrong, and I'm going to do 81 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:24,720 Speaker 1: everything i can to make sure it goes down in 82 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 1: the right way. 83 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:25,920 Speaker 3: Yeah. 84 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:29,839 Speaker 2: He dedicated himself to solving the AI alignment problem, which is, 85 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 2: how do you create an artificial intelligence whose motivations are 86 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,599 Speaker 2: totally aligned with humans and we don't accidentally wipe ourselves 87 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 2: out with the AI we create. Yeah, and like you said, 88 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 2: it kind of flies in the face of especially what's 89 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 2: going on these days, which is like, hurry up and 90 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:46,479 Speaker 2: build an AI or else China's going to do it 91 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 2: first and we're going to lose out, and there's so 92 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:52,160 Speaker 2: much money to be made off of AI. And Eliezer 93 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 2: Yukowski is a very very interesting duties self taught AI researcher, 94 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 2: incredibly brilliant and just by happenstance. I got an email 95 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:05,839 Speaker 2: yesterday from somebody at a publishing house that mentioned that 96 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 2: he has a new book coming out in September with 97 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 2: Nate Soors, one of his collaborators. It's called If Anyone 98 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,839 Speaker 2: Builds It, Everyone Dies, and it's about AI. 99 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:19,159 Speaker 1: Right, which doesn't have a whole lot to do with 100 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 1: the Zizzians, but that just sets up kind of who 101 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 1: this guy is. In two thousand and nine, he founded 102 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:28,040 Speaker 1: a blog called less Wrong, as in let's do less wrong, 103 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:30,840 Speaker 1: and I mean, I assume that's what it means. 104 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 2: It means so it's about overcoming your biases, like you 105 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 2: want to be less wrong kind of, it's all about 106 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:42,839 Speaker 2: thinking clearly and not letting your bias as guide you're thinking. 107 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:43,919 Speaker 2: I think, yeah. 108 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:48,360 Speaker 1: So they started gathering, as I guess, a de facto 109 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 1: sort of community of rationalists. A lot of this, again 110 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 1: is taking place in and around Silicon Valley in northern California, 111 00:05:55,760 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 1: and he founded a couple of Berkeley, California based organizations 112 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:05,599 Speaker 1: that'll come into play. The Machine Intelligence Research Institute or MARY, 113 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 1: and again that's about, you know, minimizing the risks of AI, 114 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 1: and then the Center for Applied Rationality or ce FAR, 115 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 1: and again same deal. Clear unbiased thinking is what they're after, 116 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: never getting too set in your ways and always trying 117 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: to revise how you think about things right. 118 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 2: They're also very closely tied with effective altruism, which is 119 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 2: essentially using rational thinking to donate your money to the 120 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:33,920 Speaker 2: greatest good. We did an episode on that, if I'm 121 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 2: not mistaken. 122 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:36,159 Speaker 1: We did my friend. 123 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 2: All of this attracted Ziz to move from Alaska down 124 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:46,040 Speaker 2: to the Bay Area in San Francisco, and she got 125 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 2: involved with SEFAR, got involved with MIRY, and dedicated herself 126 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 2: also to trying to figure out this AI alignment problem too. 127 00:06:56,160 --> 00:07:00,719 Speaker 2: And she the thing about this rationalist community is they 128 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 2: are as open as you can be. You can be 129 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 2: a Nazi and show up and be like, I'm a 130 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:08,600 Speaker 2: Nazi and here's what I think about everything, and they 131 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 2: will engage you in debate because that's just what they do. 132 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 2: They like no thought processes off the table, and that 133 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 2: attracted a lot of interesting people who were the average 134 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 2: normy would probably not necessarily feel comfortable sitting in a 135 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 2: room with just because you know, of awkwardness, but also 136 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 2: because they probably wouldn't have much to converse about because 137 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 2: the people were talking about in this rationalist community are 138 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 2: so brilliant that they probably would not be able to 139 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 2: relate to the average person and vice versa. 140 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, or at the very least on some of the 141 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: radical fringes of whatever movement that they're in. Zizz is 142 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 1: one of those people and was started writing on the 143 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 1: less wrong side and her own blog and writing about again, 144 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 1: stuff that's on the more radical end of the spectrum, 145 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 1: like hey we got a you know, sort of a 146 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: twelve Monkeys kind of stuff, like hey, we got to 147 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 1: do whatever it takes. Some people might think, you know, 148 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 1: something we're doing is evil, but if it's in the 149 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 1: service of what we think has a good end, then 150 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 1: that's what we should do. Sometimes she calls herself a 151 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 1: scyth as in you know, star Wars, and apparently the 152 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 1: name Zizz comes from a speculative fiction story called Worm 153 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 1: that a lot of rationalists love, in which Zizz in 154 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 1: the story is a villainous entity that if they listen 155 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:32,200 Speaker 1: to for too long, you will go crazy. And so 156 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:33,960 Speaker 1: Zizz is all of a sudden hanging around the Bay 157 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 1: Area go into these rationalists hangouts and meetings wearing black robes, 158 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 1: as in sort of dressed like a syth. 159 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 2: So all this is what around twenty sixteen seventeen, that 160 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:49,319 Speaker 2: this is all starting, that Ziz is showing up. And again, 161 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 2: like I said, this community is very open, so even 162 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:55,079 Speaker 2: those Ziz would show up wearing black robes, declaring yourself 163 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:58,440 Speaker 2: as Sith Lord and that that's her religion is Sith. 164 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 2: But despite the community being open, she still stood out, 165 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 2: not necessarily because she wore black robes and call herself 166 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 2: the scyth, but more because she was more intensely devoted 167 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 2: and dedicated than even the average rationalist, right, so she 168 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:15,080 Speaker 2: did stand out some. One of the other things that 169 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 2: she was radically dedicated to was veganism and animal rights, 170 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:23,680 Speaker 2: and this would actually end up separating her from the 171 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 2: rationalist community eventually, and that you can kind of make 172 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 2: a case it seems like is the initial schism that 173 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:34,559 Speaker 2: causes wedge that led to all the events that would follow. 174 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:38,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, like basically, hey, you're trying to protect human life, 175 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:41,720 Speaker 1: like what about the animals? Like every sentient animal is 176 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 1: a person, and that these are resisious words, and you know, 177 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 1: so we gotta kick up the the intensity on the 178 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 1: animal front as well. The problem with all of this 179 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 1: is that this was around San Francisco and Silicon Valley, 180 00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:01,959 Speaker 1: where it's really really expensive to live. If you're someone 181 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 1: like Zizz, You're not going out and getting some big 182 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:08,320 Speaker 1: tech job where you're making tons of money to afford 183 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 1: that condo downtown. So you got to live somewhere. And 184 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 1: this is when Zizz meets up with somebody named Gwen Danielson. 185 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 1: Had a lot in common, another rationalist, another trans woman, 186 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 1: another person who was very much into animal rights. And 187 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 1: Gwen happened to live on a sailboat in Berkeley Marina 188 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: and said, Hey, this is a much cheaper rent here. 189 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 1: Why don't you just come and live on this boat 190 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 1: with me. I'm also into math, I'm also into science, 191 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 1: and I'm also have some pretty radical ideas about stuff. 192 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:39,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, and so the point of this was if you 193 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 2: and this is Zizz's belief, if you could free yourself 194 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 2: from things like paying rent, especially the high rent of 195 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 2: San Francisco, and keep your cost down to as minimal 196 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 2: as possible, you could devote that much more time to 197 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 2: figuring out the AI alignment problem, figuring out how to 198 00:10:56,120 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 2: push Sea Far and Miri into protecting animal rights too. 199 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 2: Like just thinking and learning to think better. That was 200 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 2: kind of the point. And so I think Ziz initially 201 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 2: moved into the sailboat with Gwen Danielson, found that they 202 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 2: were not quite exactly compatible roommate wise, but still friends, 203 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:18,560 Speaker 2: and so Ziz bought her own sailboat and docted it 204 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 2: the same marina in Berkeley, and they became what was 205 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 2: called the Rationalist Fleet. This they invited more and more 206 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:30,200 Speaker 2: people to come join them at the marina, and they 207 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 2: actually went so far as to buy an old tugboat 208 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:36,840 Speaker 2: that by this time was in its seventies or eighties. 209 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 2: Maybe they not a good age for a tugboat, and 210 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 2: they actually bought it from Alaska and tugged it down 211 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 2: or sailed it down all the way to San Francisco. 212 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, the name of the boat was Caleb. So now 213 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 1: It's in Half Moon Bay, south of San Francisco. And 214 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 1: Caleb was a problem though. Cabb, like you said, was 215 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 1: an old boat, an old World War Two era tugboat, 216 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 1: So it wasn't like, you know, even like a a 217 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 1: mid seventies houseboat would have been a better option. Probably 218 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 1: this thing they couldn't. Had a hard time anchoring it. 219 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: It was too expensive to maintain. It would drift out 220 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 1: of control and hit other boats. So it was not, 221 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 1: you know, everything they thought it was going to be, 222 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 1: so just you know, sort of park that for now, 223 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:21,679 Speaker 1: I'm going to say that a lot through me parking 224 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 1: a lot of things. As this jumps around is at 225 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:26,840 Speaker 1: this point, we have to introduce some new characters to 226 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 1: the scene. Again, had a lot in common with Ziz 227 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 1: and Gwenn in that they were very very smart, very 228 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 1: much into math and science. Some were trends and some 229 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 1: were non binary. And the first player here is someone 230 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:45,440 Speaker 1: named Emma Baranian, a programmer worked at Google but left 231 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 1: Google because they thought the company was corrupt. 232 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 2: Yes, and we should say these people fell into Ziz's 233 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:59,200 Speaker 2: orbit because Thisiz was a prolific blogger and blogged in 234 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 2: a way that like a lot of the language and 235 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:06,440 Speaker 2: thoughts and ideas were impenetrable to all but a certain 236 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 2: group of people. And these were the people that she 237 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 2: ended up attracting through her blog. There's a really great 238 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 2: Guardian article about all of this written by Alliver Conroy, 239 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 2: and Conroy says that there was a glossary that somebody 240 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 2: gave him that one of Zig's blog followers created of 241 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 2: Zig's words, and that when he printed it out it 242 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 2: was forty eight pages long. So like, she had a 243 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 2: certain thing going on that attracted a certain kind of 244 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 2: person and these were the people who were falling into 245 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 2: their into her orbit at this time. And we should 246 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 2: also say all of these people were in their early 247 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 2: to mid twenties. I think Ziz was the oldest maybe 248 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:53,359 Speaker 2: at the time, at twenty six. So they were all disaffected, brilliant, 249 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 2: often trans vegan twenty somethings who were living very close 250 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 2: to homelessness in San Francisco in the late two thousand teams. 251 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, So the second person was Alex Leatham, occasionally known 252 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 1: as Somny, a mathematician in this case went to the 253 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 1: UCLA study at UC Berkeley as well. Then we have 254 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 1: Michelle Zashko biometrics researcher, another Smarty Pants, and then someone 255 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 1: named Alice Munday who was Zoshko's girlfriend and a bit 256 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 1: of a mentor apparently according to Ziz to Ziz, and 257 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 1: they started sort of just getting together talking about their ideas. 258 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 1: They came up with a name for one of their 259 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 1: theories or sort of their overarching theory called vegan an 260 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 1: Arco transhumanism, and gwyn Danielson developed this idea that the 261 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 1: hemispheres of the brain were basically separate and they could 262 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 1: operate independently from one another. You can be different genders 263 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 1: at the same time. You can be good and evil, 264 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 1: or good or evil at the same time. And they 265 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 1: started these experiments called un una hemispheric sleep where they 266 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 1: were saying, you can be asleep and awake at the 267 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 1: same time. One can be asleep and then one can 268 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 1: be active and awake. And we say this because there 269 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 1: are people that have accused Ziz and others in the 270 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 1: group of basically keeping you sleep deprived through these experiments, 271 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 1: potentially leading to a couple of suicides that we'll talk about. 272 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 1: And again, I have no judgment on whether or not 273 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 1: they are a cult or not at this point, but 274 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 1: if you're making a case for cult. Sleep deprivation is 275 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 1: a very big hallmark of something that oftentimes happens. 276 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:38,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's like chapter two in the cult Leader's playbook. Yeah, 277 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 2: we should say also that una hemispheric sleep theoretically as possible. 278 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 2: Humans don't do it, but dolphins do, whales do, migratory 279 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 2: birds too. So it's sound like it just doesn't exist. 280 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 2: It's humans trying to figure out how to do it 281 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 2: themselves so they could think longer, more hours in a 282 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 2: day essentially. 283 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, so this group is getting a little more upset 284 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: and aggressive toward the official rationalist movement and community. They 285 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 1: think again that Mary and c far you're not doing 286 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 1: enough for the animals. You need to expand your I 287 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 1: guess viewpoint on sentient beings and what that means. And 288 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 1: you're also biased against trans people. 289 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 2: Yeah. And there was another thing too that Ziz got 290 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 2: really upset about. She came to believe that Mary paid 291 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 2: off a blackmailer. Another way to put it is that 292 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 2: somebody accused people at MIRI of sexual assault or statutory 293 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 2: rape I think it was, and that they paid the 294 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 2: person to go away. Some people call it a settlement. 295 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 2: To Ziz, it was a blackmail paying off a blackmailer, 296 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 2: and that you just did not do that, that that 297 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 2: violated some of the basic tenets of the rationalist community 298 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 2: and the way of solving problems that they use. So 299 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 2: that with the ethical veganism combined, really separated her from 300 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 2: this rationalist community. And with this growing group around her, 301 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 2: they decided that they were going to show up go 302 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 2: to the Seafar seminar conference that was being held in 303 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 2: twenty nineteen, and they were going to present their problems 304 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:16,119 Speaker 2: and their issues in a very rational way, just like 305 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:19,679 Speaker 2: Seefhar would want them to. And the people who organized 306 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 2: Sefar were like, you guys are way too aggressive for 307 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 2: our tastes. You can't come to the Seafar retreat. 308 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:28,680 Speaker 1: And one of them said, you've got a Nazi in there. 309 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:36,200 Speaker 1: So four of them ziz Gwyn Danielson, Emma Baranian and 310 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:39,160 Speaker 1: it gets a litt confusingly all names and Alex Leatham. 311 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:43,200 Speaker 1: They went anyway, and they had their guy Fawkes masks 312 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 1: on and they had their black hooded robes on. They 313 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 1: blocked the exits with their vehicles and they were like, 314 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:50,359 Speaker 1: here you're going to listen to us. Here's our flyers 315 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:53,440 Speaker 1: here's our problems and our issues, and the staff didn't 316 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 1: know what was going on. They called in a report 317 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:58,680 Speaker 1: of a possible active shooter and the cops came. They 318 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 1: did not have arms on them or anything like that, 319 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:04,879 Speaker 1: but they were arrested on charges of false imprisonment and 320 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 1: child endangement because there were kids there. It was a 321 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:11,120 Speaker 1: campground where they met north of San Francisco, and the defendance, 322 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:12,919 Speaker 1: we should point out, the four of them did end 323 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:16,359 Speaker 1: up filing a suit against the police alleging mistreatment. 324 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:19,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, so the rationalist community is like, that's it. Not 325 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:22,440 Speaker 2: only can you not come to Seafire retreats, you can't 326 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 2: even hang out on the Less Wrong blog. You can't 327 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:31,239 Speaker 2: come to our cocktail meetups that we have, which are 328 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 2: a lot of fun. So you're probably going to be upset. 329 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 2: They just got booted out. So now this wedge was 330 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:41,639 Speaker 2: a gulf. It was a break in communication between the 331 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 2: group that would come to be known as Sizians and 332 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 2: the rationalist community. And with that that group became more 333 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 2: and more isolated and their ideas got a little weirder 334 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 2: and a little more far out and a little more aggressive. 335 00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 2: Because they were all similar people who were eating off 336 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 2: one another in this isolated situation. There weren't people on 337 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 2: the outside coming and be like, whoa, let's let's rethink 338 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:10,880 Speaker 2: what you're saying. It was like, Yeah, that's a really 339 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:13,639 Speaker 2: good idea, and it just kept going from there. 340 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 1: All right, I think that's a good You can kind 341 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:18,160 Speaker 1: of park all that stuff for now because this story 342 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: kind of jumps around the country a bit, and when 343 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:22,920 Speaker 1: we come back, we're gonna pick up with part two 344 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 1: a little north of San Francisco in Ballejo, California. 345 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:50,200 Speaker 3: Stop you know, stop stop stopping here? Should know no, 346 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 3: stop you. 347 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:57,679 Speaker 2: Know, So Chuck. One of the outcomes of being like 348 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:00,679 Speaker 2: pushed out of the rationalist community somebody, he launched a 349 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:04,679 Speaker 2: website called zizzians dot info, still around today, and they 350 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:08,679 Speaker 2: basically chronicled all the things that they accused the Zizians 351 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:11,439 Speaker 2: of being a cult or that backs up their accusation 352 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:14,399 Speaker 2: of the Zizzians being a cult. And two of the 353 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 2: things are something you referenced earlier. There were two suicides 354 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 2: by people who were said to have gone through this 355 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:28,679 Speaker 2: una hemispheric sleep I guess boot camp, and it resulted 356 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:33,639 Speaker 2: in their suicides allegedly, so d Zizzeans just have a 357 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 2: really bad name. At this point, the marina thing is 358 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 2: not working out. The Rationalist Fleet is kind of sinking, 359 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 2: as it were, and they just happened to meet somebody 360 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 2: at the marina named Curtis Lynde, who is a seventy 361 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:49,879 Speaker 2: something guy who loved people, loved artists and had a 362 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 2: bunch of land down in Vallejo and said, Hey, I 363 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:56,200 Speaker 2: want artists to come live down there. You guys seem 364 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:58,440 Speaker 2: kind of artsy and odd. Why don't you come live 365 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:02,240 Speaker 2: there for really cheap rent? And the Zizzians were like, heck, yeah. 366 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 3: All right. 367 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:07,040 Speaker 1: So Curtis Lynn offers, you know, them, the chance to 368 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 1: go live. You know, they paid rent, but I don't 369 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 1: imagine it was very much. And in this, you know, 370 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 1: we're going to be introduced to some more players at 371 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:17,399 Speaker 1: this point. One of the members of the group that 372 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:19,680 Speaker 1: had joined up at this time, her name was Suri 373 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 1: dal and she was fresh out of high school and 374 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 1: a leftist blogger and just sort of put a pin 375 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:29,200 Speaker 1: in this. At one point in a discord chat, she 376 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 1: said that she had had very dramatic fantasies about becoming 377 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 1: a knife murderer, and there's you know, up to twenty 378 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:40,640 Speaker 1: people at this time on Curtis Lyn's property. The neighbors 379 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:43,959 Speaker 1: get a little freaked out. They're like, hey, they're walking 380 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 1: around naked. Sometimes they're wearing gas masks. Lynd eventually was like, 381 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 1: you guys aren't even paying rent anymore, and they said, yeah, 382 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 1: well there's a COVID eviction moratorium, so what are you 383 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:56,680 Speaker 1: going to do about it? So everything just starts going 384 00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 1: really pear shaped, as you say, in like. 385 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, also check I saw that they would carry katanas 386 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 2: around like samurai swords. So imagine seeing your neighbor walking 387 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:09,960 Speaker 2: around naked, wearing a gas mask and carrying a samurai sword, 388 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 2: and there's twenty of them. It would be hard, especially 389 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 2: in the context of California, to not be like, I 390 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 2: think they might be a cult. 391 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 1: Good point. 392 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:20,919 Speaker 2: So in twenty twenty two, like you said, things just 393 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 2: really start to take a terrible shape. In August, Zizz's 394 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 2: sister and Emma Baranian went to the police and said, 395 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 2: our friend Zizz fell over while boating. So Ziz died 396 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 2: during in a boating accident. The Coastguard launched a huge search, 397 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 2: and I guess after eighteen hours they said there's no 398 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 2: way that she could have survived, and she was. Although 399 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:45,680 Speaker 2: they didn't have the body, they still declared her legally 400 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:49,639 Speaker 2: dead and her sister was given a death certificate. And 401 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:53,199 Speaker 2: around the same time, Gwen Danielson, who was one of 402 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:57,200 Speaker 2: the og members of this whole group, she died by 403 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:00,920 Speaker 2: suicide too. So this group is just rocked by these 404 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,160 Speaker 2: two deaths in twenty twenty. 405 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:08,200 Speaker 1: Two, that's right. So while this is happening, it's kind 406 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 1: of at the same time, this COVID eviction moratorium runs out. 407 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 1: So Curtis Lynde is like, all right, now I can 408 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 1: actually get these people off my property finally, probably like 409 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 1: this November. Two days before he was able to do 410 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:23,719 Speaker 1: that and sort of dropped the news that they were 411 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:28,160 Speaker 1: out of there, Suri Dal called him in and said, hey, 412 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 1: there's a water leak on my property here or in 413 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 1: my trailer. You got to come and check this out. 414 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 1: Curtis Lynn says, I went to address the issue with 415 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 1: the water and I was assaulted. They hit me over 416 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:40,919 Speaker 1: the head, They stabbed me with knives, They stabbed me 417 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 1: with a katana, the samurai sword. He ended up losing 418 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:48,119 Speaker 1: an eye. He was stabbed through the chest apparently he 419 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:50,879 Speaker 1: alleges that Alex Leatham was the one who stabbed him 420 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,359 Speaker 1: through the chest, and so he shot Leatham and Emma 421 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 1: Branian and killed her dead. If you ask the Zizians 422 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 1: that were there, they said, no, that's not what happened. 423 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 1: He'd been harassing us and he just opened fire on 424 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: us one day. 425 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 2: So the authorities tended to agree or believe Curtis Lynde, 426 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 2: and in fact, Leatham and Dow were arrested, charged with 427 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 2: attempted murder and then also charged with the death of 428 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:22,159 Speaker 2: Emma Baranian because apparently in California law, if you do 429 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:25,680 Speaker 2: something that causes the death of somebody else, even incidentally, 430 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,720 Speaker 2: you are responsible or you can be held responsible for 431 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:32,920 Speaker 2: that death. And the thinking was that Curtis Lynn had 432 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 2: to kill Emma Baranian because of the actions of Dow 433 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 2: and Lethum. Right right, So now Surrey Dow and Alex 434 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 2: Leatham are in jail in California. That's where they are. 435 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:47,920 Speaker 2: So just park that, like you said. 436 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 1: That's right. So police took another member of the group 437 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 1: at the time. She gave her name as Julia Dawson. 438 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 1: He said, come down the station with us. We got 439 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 1: to question you. At this she seemed like she was 440 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 1: having a medical emergency, so like, well, we got to 441 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 1: get her to the hospital. STAT took her to the hospital, 442 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:11,679 Speaker 1: and she disappeared from the hospital. Detectives started investigating what 443 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 1: happened there and they said, oh, you know who that was. 444 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:18,640 Speaker 1: That was Zizzzz is not dead at all. And they 445 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:22,399 Speaker 1: also determined guess who else was there, Gwen Danielson, she's 446 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 1: actually alive as well. 447 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:24,360 Speaker 3: Yeah. 448 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 2: So if you've heard our faking your death episode, this 449 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:29,600 Speaker 2: is a it's a big deal to fake your death, 450 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,400 Speaker 2: especially successfully. So the Zizians never thought they were dead, 451 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:35,640 Speaker 2: or if they did, it was for a very short time. 452 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:39,480 Speaker 2: It was to protect themselves from the authorities. One of 453 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 2: the other things that was really an unsettling find after 454 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:49,160 Speaker 2: Curtis Lynde was attacked, they found a that of lie 455 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 2: that suggested that they intended to kill him and that 456 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:54,639 Speaker 2: they were going to dissolve his body in it. So 457 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 2: it's starting to become clear like these people are no joke. 458 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:03,240 Speaker 2: But at the time, this was like an isolated incident. 459 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 2: It wasn't related to anything else. The authorities did not 460 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,360 Speaker 2: know that this was a group known as the Zizzians 461 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 2: or anything like that. There were pieces that were starting 462 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 2: to lay out on the table, but no one had 463 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:15,920 Speaker 2: put them together yet. 464 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. All right, So now you can park all 465 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,199 Speaker 1: of that because we're going to move once again across 466 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 1: the country. This time Pennsylvania is going to come into 467 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,399 Speaker 1: the picture in twenty twenty one. So this is a 468 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:32,920 Speaker 1: little bit before these events. Michelle Zashko that we mentioned 469 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 1: in Alice Munday, who were girlfriends with each other. They 470 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,439 Speaker 1: moved from California to Vermont, to northern Vermont, pretty rural area, 471 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:42,320 Speaker 1: and they were joined by guy named Daniel Blank, another 472 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:46,240 Speaker 1: like minded person. He went to UC Berkeley bioengineering and 473 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 1: electrical engineering co degree and then worked at startups, and 474 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 1: he was also a vegan and started to sort of 475 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:57,639 Speaker 1: get a little more radical about it. It got distance 476 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 1: from his parents, started judging them for eating meat, and 477 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 1: he hooks up with Monday and Zashko and Vermont. 478 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:07,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, and so by this time, I think, I don't 479 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:09,640 Speaker 2: know if you said it or not. I think you did. 480 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 2: Ziz had credited Alice Monday as being like her mentor 481 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:18,920 Speaker 2: y she had she modeled herself largely after Alice Monday too, 482 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 2: like she was apparently really assertive with her beliefs and ideas, 483 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 2: and Ziz became more and more like that after meeting 484 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:29,120 Speaker 2: Alice Monday. By this time though, she considered Alice Monday 485 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,880 Speaker 2: an enemy, what she called the vampire. And I guess 486 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:38,239 Speaker 2: Zajkoh was by association, guilty by association, and from what 487 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 2: I could tell, the Alice Monday became her enemy because 488 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 2: she and maybe Zajka were warning people away from Ziz, 489 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 2: saying like, you need to steer clear of this person. 490 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 2: So Ziz considered their enemies, and she contacted Zosco and said, Hey, 491 00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,480 Speaker 2: if you want to earn my trust back, you need 492 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,919 Speaker 2: to murder Alice. And if you don't, I'm going to 493 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 2: come to Vermont and murder you. And this was the 494 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 2: kind of a precarious situation as far as Zazko was concerned. 495 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,200 Speaker 2: Michelle Zozkoe was concerned because this really, I think, kind 496 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,359 Speaker 2: of gets a lot across. She was like, I really 497 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:16,680 Speaker 2: had to kind of decide, you know, did I want 498 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:19,879 Speaker 2: to murder Alice to make this happy or should I 499 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 2: kill Ziz. This is the position that Ziz was putting 500 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:25,880 Speaker 2: people in by this time, Allegedly. 501 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:29,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, should we just have Jerry drop in the word 502 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 1: allegedly like just every forty seconds, allegedly, Beijing, mister Herman, 503 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 1: I know I promised Pennsylvania and we've been in Vermont 504 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 1: for a second. Here, but here's where Pennsylvania comes into play. 505 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:43,960 Speaker 1: On in December thirty, first last day of the year, 506 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 1: according to Manny in twenty twenty two, this is about 507 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 1: a month and a half after Curtis Lynde was stabbed 508 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 1: and after that all occurred in Viejo. So Michelle Zosco's parents, 509 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 1: Richard and Rita were murdered in Pennsylvania. They have ring 510 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 1: camera footage from a neighbor that shows two people arriving 511 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 1: at the house a little before midnight, and on the 512 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 1: camera footage you can hear what sounds like mom and 513 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 1: then a few seconds later, oh my god, Oh god god, 514 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 1: and the parents of Michelle Zashko were found shot in 515 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 1: the head, kind of execution style, in their bedroom. 516 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, so the Pennsylvania State Troopers went to go visit 517 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 2: Michelle's age Cohen, Vermont, and she's like, I haven't been 518 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 2: to Pennsylvania in almost twenty years, or more than twenty years, 519 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 2: and I haven't talked to my parents in a year. 520 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 2: So it's not me. I don't know who killed them. 521 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 2: And in fact, she showed up to a graveside service 522 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,560 Speaker 2: a couple of weeks later, and I believe was the 523 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 2: sole beneficiary maybe of her parents' estate. While she was 524 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 2: there for the service, she was accompanied by Daniel Blank, 525 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 2: and I guess they had drawn some attention at the 526 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 2: hotel because they were both wearing black and one of 527 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,440 Speaker 2: them was said to have been carrying a gun around 528 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 2: the hotel grounds. So the hotel called the police, and 529 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:04,000 Speaker 2: the police started surveilling them, and after a very short time, 530 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 2: they went into Michelle'sajco's hotel room and searched it and 531 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 2: I think they searched your car, found something like forty 532 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 2: thousand dollars in cash, and they were like, we're just 533 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 2: gonna take you down to jail. All this stuff is 534 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 2: kind of mounting. We still think you might have killed 535 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 2: your parents. We're going to take you in for questioning. 536 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 2: And she said something to the hotel person that was there, said, 537 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 2: can you contact Daniel Blank, he's in another room here 538 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 2: and tell him what's going on, And the police were like, 539 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 2: I think we'd like to talk to him too, went 540 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 2: and got a warrant and then they went to Daniel 541 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 2: Blank's room shortly after that. 542 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 1: That's right, they detained him. They did not were not 543 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:45,080 Speaker 1: able to keep them for very long. They were released 544 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 1: pretty quickly. But we should mention too. In addition to 545 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 1: that forty grand in cash, they also found several prepaid 546 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,720 Speaker 1: cell phones, which is a bit of a potential red 547 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 1: flag as well in Michelle Zashko's car. And while they 548 00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 1: were arresting Blank, there was someone else in the room. 549 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 1: They were lying on the floor, they wouldn't move, they 550 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:06,400 Speaker 1: wouldn't speak, and that was drum roll Zizz. So this 551 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,080 Speaker 1: is getting around. At this point, police arrested Ziz on 552 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 1: obstruction of justice disorderly conduct I guess, just for not 553 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:14,520 Speaker 1: you know, complying I guess and getting off the floor 554 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 1: and stuff like that. It was a misdemeanor charge. But 555 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:22,680 Speaker 1: they did hold her in jail for five months instead 556 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:24,880 Speaker 1: of I guess, in lieu of a five hundred thousand 557 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 1: dollars bail, which could not afford obviously, and the judge said, 558 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 1: all right, we're going to release you. You got to 559 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,000 Speaker 1: promise to pay ten grand if you miss court. She 560 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 1: did return to court for that August hearing in a 561 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 1: wheelchair pushed by her mom. But when the trial date 562 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 1: came up of December of twenty twenty three, she did 563 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:46,240 Speaker 1: not show up. So I think that's probably a great 564 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 1: place for our second break because the story is really 565 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 1: heating up now. Sure is. 566 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 3: Stop you know stop stop stop? Should know no stop 567 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 3: you know? 568 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 1: All right, So now we're gonna find ourselves partially in 569 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 1: North Carolina, uh, and back in Vieho and also back 570 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,720 Speaker 1: in Vermont, and we're gonna introduce uh what I guess 571 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:32,640 Speaker 1: three more people, Olivia Bachholt, Maximilian Schnyder, and my Milo 572 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:33,600 Speaker 1: Young Blute. 573 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. So, Ophelia Bachholt was German by birth and she 574 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 2: was described as naive, altruistic, and trusting by friends. She 575 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 2: fell into Esday's orbit. I think by starting out reading 576 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,800 Speaker 2: her blog, she was trans She was a math genius, 577 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 2: and she was really really interested in effective altruism. I 578 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,440 Speaker 2: think she made a couple hundred grand a year as 579 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 2: a quant trader in New York and donated all but 580 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 2: ten percent of it to affective altruism causes. So she 581 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:09,480 Speaker 2: was very dedicated to this. But something about Zizz's philosophy 582 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 2: grabbed her and she ended up leaving New York one day, 583 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 2: cutting off all contact with everyone else in her former life, 584 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 2: and moving to North Carolina and essentially starting a new 585 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:21,640 Speaker 2: life in this orbit of ziz. 586 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:22,200 Speaker 3: Yeah. 587 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 1: So Maximilian Snyder was a data scientist, another super super 588 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:30,719 Speaker 1: smart person, and Milo Young Blute went to an elite 589 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:34,720 Speaker 1: private school in Seattle with Maximilian Snyder and they got 590 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 1: together later on after that, and in May of twenty 591 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:42,640 Speaker 1: twenty four, Young Blute's parents said they're missing. I don't 592 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:44,920 Speaker 1: know where they went. They and Snyder applied for a 593 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:47,840 Speaker 1: marriage license together in November of twenty twenty four, which 594 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:52,000 Speaker 1: is November fifth, specifically, which is guy faux Knight. And 595 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 1: apparently they all got attracted to the Zizzians just through online. 596 00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:59,200 Speaker 1: They never met zizz, They never met Gwen Danielson, they 597 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:03,080 Speaker 1: never met any of the other Rationalists fleet Zizians at 598 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:03,680 Speaker 1: all in person. 599 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:08,399 Speaker 2: Yes, that seems to be contested from what I can tell, 600 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 2: Chuck that there's it's possible that there's evidence that they 601 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 2: did meet them, but I don't know who said what 602 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,759 Speaker 2: or why. But that's yeah, that's a contested issue. So 603 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:23,960 Speaker 2: in January twenty twenty five, Young Bachholt they're in Vermont. 604 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:30,799 Speaker 2: They're a short distance away from Michelle's ageko's house. So 605 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:36,799 Speaker 2: shortly after the move where everybody was in Chapel Hill, 606 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:41,839 Speaker 2: Young Blute and Bachholt traveled to Vermont and the state. 607 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,120 Speaker 2: They checked into a hotel that was not too far 608 00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:48,799 Speaker 2: from Michelle's ashco's house. And I thought initially that they 609 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 2: were there to kill Michelle's ASCO, but I found that 610 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:55,640 Speaker 2: they had made contact with her enough that the police 611 00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,319 Speaker 2: think that she bought them some guns or gave them 612 00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 2: some guns that she bought. I'm not exactly sure what 613 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:05,719 Speaker 2: they were doing in Vermont, but they eventually they fell 614 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,239 Speaker 2: under the radar of the Border Patrol, who pulled them 615 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:13,400 Speaker 2: over near the Canadian border. And when that happened, they 616 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 2: were pulled over. At the very least, Young Blute allegedly 617 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:21,080 Speaker 2: got out and just opened fire on the Border patrol agents. 618 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, the Border Patrol said that bachhold attempted to draw 619 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:28,080 Speaker 1: a gun, they fired back. It's basically a firefight at 620 00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:32,000 Speaker 1: this point, and Bachholdt and a Border Patrol agent named 621 00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 1: David Malland were both killed. Young Blute was injured arrested 622 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:41,279 Speaker 1: obviously on assault charges. Police found hollow Point ammunition in 623 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:45,799 Speaker 1: their car, found those burner phones wrapped in foil. They 624 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:49,080 Speaker 1: found full face respirator mask, They found a night vision monocular, 625 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,560 Speaker 1: so sort of the Mayhem starter kit in the car. 626 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:55,759 Speaker 2: Sure sounds like it for sure. So yeah, again, I'm 627 00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,520 Speaker 2: not sure what they were doing in traveling from North 628 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:02,719 Speaker 2: Carolina to Vermont, but this is a big deal and 629 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:06,759 Speaker 2: they killed the border patrol agent, especially when a pair 630 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:10,240 Speaker 2: of trans people dressed in all black just open fire 631 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,719 Speaker 2: on a border patrol agent and made national news. And 632 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:17,719 Speaker 2: this is when people started to connect the dots. Not 633 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 2: only did you have the attack of Curtis Lind. A 634 00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:23,839 Speaker 2: couple of years later, as everybody is starting to go 635 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:29,280 Speaker 2: to trial, Surrey Dow and Alex Leatham are moving toward trial. 636 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:33,799 Speaker 2: Curtis Lynd is a star witness, I guess, allegedly to 637 00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:38,399 Speaker 2: shut him up, Maximilian Schneider shows up in Viejo and 638 00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:41,680 Speaker 2: murdered Curtis Lind before he could testify. 639 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, and this was just three days before this shootout 640 00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:46,719 Speaker 1: in Vermont. So it's all really coming to a head 641 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:50,200 Speaker 1: very quickly, in almost real time to where we are today. 642 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:55,760 Speaker 1: So on February sixteenth of this year, three people dressed 643 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:59,440 Speaker 1: in all black, driving a couple of white box trucks. 644 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,040 Speaker 1: A sudden, we're in Maryland. They went to Maryland to 645 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:03,719 Speaker 1: a property owner and said, hey, can we camp out 646 00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:06,880 Speaker 1: here for a month. He did not take kindly of that, 647 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,279 Speaker 1: so we called the cops and it turns out that 648 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:15,000 Speaker 1: was Daniel Blank, Zizz, and Michelle Zajko, and they arrested 649 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:18,680 Speaker 1: them initially on trespassing charges, but they found a bunch 650 00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 1: of guns in the trucks and said, oh wait, these 651 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:23,680 Speaker 1: are the three people there. Like you said, they started 652 00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:25,920 Speaker 1: really connecting the dots at this point in February. 653 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I couldn't find out what Michelle's AGCO or 654 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:31,239 Speaker 2: Daniel Blank were wanted for. But Ziz was wanted for 655 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:35,800 Speaker 2: jumping bail for that court case in Pennsylvania. 656 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:37,960 Speaker 1: Well, they were arrested for trespassing. 657 00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:40,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, but I don't know what they were wanted for already, 658 00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:45,759 Speaker 2: is what I'm saying. So that was February as of May, 659 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:48,200 Speaker 2: late May, last month, a couple of weeks ago, a 660 00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:52,800 Speaker 2: couple of days ago, even you could say, Zizz, Michelle's Ageko, 661 00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:59,160 Speaker 2: and Daniel Blank are all in jail in Maryland for treuspassing. Letham, 662 00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:02,600 Speaker 2: Dow and Snipe are all in jail in California for 663 00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:04,840 Speaker 2: the attack on Curtis Lind and then the murder of 664 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:08,520 Speaker 2: Curtis Lind and then Young Blute is in Vermont for 665 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:12,160 Speaker 2: allegedly trying to draw a gun on the Border Patrol 666 00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:15,560 Speaker 2: agents during a firefight where a Border Patrol agent was killed. 667 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:22,319 Speaker 2: So the the Zizians are still like around essentially, they 668 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:24,239 Speaker 2: still will say like, we're not a cult, we're not 669 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:27,960 Speaker 2: even called Zizians. But now there's more and more journalists 670 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:30,080 Speaker 2: who are starting to dig into it and putting together 671 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:33,680 Speaker 2: deeper and deeper profiles of this group and what was 672 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,040 Speaker 2: going on. But like you said, this is real time, man, 673 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:39,480 Speaker 2: this is there's no resolution to this. This this is 674 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:41,799 Speaker 2: this is where it stops, because this is as far 675 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:43,120 Speaker 2: as it's gotten so far. 676 00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:48,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, they're still writing. Apparently, Daniel Schnyder in jail is 677 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:53,560 Speaker 1: writing stuff to the Rationalist group saying, hey, like you 678 00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:57,600 Speaker 1: still need to focus on animal rights, and Michelle Zashko 679 00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:00,160 Speaker 1: is writing She wrote an open letter to the world 680 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:04,120 Speaker 1: that's in quotes stated March ninth of this year and 681 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:06,080 Speaker 1: where she was like, hey, I didn't kill my parents 682 00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:10,120 Speaker 1: zizz hasn't done anything wrong. A lot of these people, 683 00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:12,319 Speaker 1: like I don't even know those other people. I'm not 684 00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:15,479 Speaker 1: with Maximilian Schneyder, like I've never met these people. They're 685 00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:18,160 Speaker 1: not Zizians, aren't a group like Josh said, Well, she 686 00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:19,799 Speaker 1: didn't say, like joshad that'd be kind of fun though, 687 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:24,000 Speaker 1: But they're not even associated with us as a group 688 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:26,800 Speaker 1: that we don't refer to ourselves as Zizian's. 689 00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:32,320 Speaker 2: Right, So Alice Monday and Gwen Danielson thought to be alive. 690 00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:35,600 Speaker 2: Still Alice Monday, I saw is thought to be in 691 00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:38,920 Speaker 2: hiding that she's very scared of Zizz and the Zizians, 692 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:42,200 Speaker 2: especially now. And then there's other people. There's people in 693 00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:45,440 Speaker 2: the rationalist community who were willing to speak to journalists 694 00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:49,680 Speaker 2: about this, but not like anonymously because they're scared of 695 00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:53,400 Speaker 2: the Zizians too. So it's still a thing, even though 696 00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:57,000 Speaker 2: Zizz is in jail, and it's just a question of 697 00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:00,799 Speaker 2: where it goes from here. But just kind of everything up. 698 00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:03,920 Speaker 2: We'll go back to Half Moon Bay where the Caleb 699 00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:08,600 Speaker 2: was docked in the Berkeley Marina, and since the Zizzian's 700 00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:12,480 Speaker 2: abandoned it, it has sunk in the Marina half sunk 701 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:15,640 Speaker 2: and is a nuisance to that. You have to get 702 00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:19,279 Speaker 2: around now, poor Caleb. Yeah, Caleb's like, what did I 703 00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:22,839 Speaker 2: ever do? Yeah, I just wanted to help people. I'm 704 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:23,880 Speaker 2: a born tugboat. 705 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:24,680 Speaker 3: I know. 706 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:28,799 Speaker 2: If you want to know more about this stuff, go 707 00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:30,479 Speaker 2: look it up. There's a lot of stuff to read, 708 00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:34,960 Speaker 2: and just keep an eye on the news. We definitely 709 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,279 Speaker 2: will be too. And since I said that, I think 710 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:38,759 Speaker 2: it's time for listener mail Chuck. 711 00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:45,800 Speaker 1: This is from James. Hey, guys, I'm fascinated that terms 712 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,640 Speaker 1: we take for granted often come from slurs meant to suppress, 713 00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:51,560 Speaker 1: and in some cases similar slurs. I love knowing that 714 00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:53,520 Speaker 1: pagan came from a word that his Chuck puts. It 715 00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:56,640 Speaker 1: means bumpkin was meant to belittle in diminish, and now 716 00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:59,560 Speaker 1: it covers a huge chunk of the faith pie. I 717 00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:02,120 Speaker 1: was reminded of the word jaywalking. I feel like we've 718 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:05,960 Speaker 1: talked about this in something, maybe the origins of jaywalking. 719 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:09,040 Speaker 1: Maybe maybe as cars became a thing and started driving 720 00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:10,960 Speaker 1: with some velocity in the places where people were used 721 00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,560 Speaker 1: to walking, big car had to make sure they weren't 722 00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,160 Speaker 1: the bad guy. They had to rewrite convention and get 723 00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:22,279 Speaker 1: people pedestrians specifically off the road. So what did they do? Slurs? Obviously, 724 00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:27,040 Speaker 1: if I remember correctly, j like paganas meant an uneducated 725 00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:29,040 Speaker 1: country folk too stupid not to walk in the road 726 00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:31,960 Speaker 1: like a dingus. This word must have worked because now 727 00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:33,840 Speaker 1: it is a legal term to describe the act of 728 00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:36,759 Speaker 1: crossing the street at a non crosswalk. Big car one, 729 00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:40,600 Speaker 1: constantine one. Thanks for the potting guys and fulfilling my 730 00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:42,760 Speaker 1: brain with stuff that is James. 731 00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:45,799 Speaker 2: Thanks a lot, James. That's a good one. And think 732 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:49,359 Speaker 2: you jogged my memory to an episode about like how 733 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,760 Speaker 2: cars became the dominant mode of transportation in the US. 734 00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:54,960 Speaker 1: Sounds like that might have been the one I think 735 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:55,239 Speaker 1: that was. 736 00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:57,720 Speaker 2: That was a good one. That was a sleeper episode. 737 00:41:57,960 --> 00:41:58,360 Speaker 1: Agreed. 738 00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:00,600 Speaker 2: If you want to be like Jay and send us 739 00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:02,879 Speaker 2: an interesting email that we may or may not read 740 00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:05,520 Speaker 2: on the air, but we'd still like to receive anyway, 741 00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:08,919 Speaker 2: you can send it off to stuff podcast at iHeartRadio 742 00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:12,319 Speaker 2: dot com. 743 00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:15,400 Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For 744 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:19,640 Speaker 1: more podcasts myheart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 745 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:21,600 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.