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Speaker 1: This is me eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely

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Speaker 1: bug bitten and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You

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Speaker 1: can't predict anything. So we're joined by a special guest, um,

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Speaker 1: Brian Richards. That's right, right, you've got it with the

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Speaker 1: U s g S, the United States Geologic Survey and

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Speaker 1: at the National Wildlife Health Center at the National Wildlife

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Speaker 1: Health Center in Madison, Wisconsin. Now, just to just to

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Speaker 1: start the most basic thing, because we're talking about wildlife disease,

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Speaker 1: particularly chronic waste disease. But um, how how does the

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Speaker 1: how how does the how does wildlife disease sort of

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Speaker 1: fall under the under the bailiwick, you know? Or uh,

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Speaker 1: how's the USGS tangled up in that? Because instead of

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Speaker 1: because I would hear that when I was younger, and

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Speaker 1: I would think that the USGS mapped mineral deposits and

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Speaker 1: U s GS is formally known as the Science Wing

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Speaker 1: or the Science Bureau in the Department of the Interior. Okay,

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Speaker 1: But the National Wildlife Health Center originated back in Fishing

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Speaker 1: Wildlife Service, and we were removed from Fishing Wildlife Service

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Speaker 1: and moved over eventually into into U s g S

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Speaker 1: as part of that larger conglomerate of science. So USGS

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Speaker 1: does a lot of different things, earthquake monitoring, volcanoes, natural hazards. UM.

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Speaker 1: There's a water science center virtually in every state that

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Speaker 1: that deals with water issues. But we also do UH

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Speaker 1: issues in in UM environmental health biology. So it's kind

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Speaker 1: of interesting with the National Wildlife Health Center is we

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Speaker 1: are a very a national center, so we deal with

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Speaker 1: wildlife health issues across the country and internationally as well.

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Speaker 1: Our main campus being in Madison, Wisconsin. We have a

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Speaker 1: satellite UM in Honolulu, Hawaii. You know, I've been trying

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Speaker 1: for the last twelve years to get relocated out there,

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Speaker 1: but you know, so far, so far it hasn't worked. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you grew up here. You grew up here in Wisconsin,

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Speaker 1: I did. I grew up just uh, just maybe an

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Speaker 1: hour hour and a half northwest of where we are now,

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Speaker 1: on a dairy farm, and and so really spent the

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Speaker 1: better part of my life living you know, outdoors and

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Speaker 1: enjoying hunting and fishing, you know, just like you know,

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Speaker 1: very similar to the property we're on here today. Just

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Speaker 1: a fantastic place to grow up, and then spent some

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Speaker 1: time in Texas. I did. Um, after I got done

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Speaker 1: with grad school. Uh, you know, you're you're poor, you

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Speaker 1: need a job, and uh you start centering out applications

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Speaker 1: in and Texas Parks and Wildlife Department. You know, for

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Speaker 1: whatever reason, decided to entertain me down there for about

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Speaker 1: eleven years. Uh. So I worked at the headquarters for

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Speaker 1: Parks and Wildlife in in big game management. UH learned

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Speaker 1: a lot. Texas is a very fascinating place. Um. You know,

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Speaker 1: from an ecological perspective, I think there's ten distinct ecological

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Speaker 1: regions in the state of Texas. There's something very neat

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Speaker 1: about virtually every one of them. Uh, Texas being so large, Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know when I was there, you know, we figured

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Speaker 1: it was about fourteen hours from east to west, you know,

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Speaker 1: from Houston Dale Passo and probably about fourteen hours drive

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Speaker 1: from Brownsville up to Amarilla. So, you know, just a

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Speaker 1: tremendous space. But game management there is a lot of fun.

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Speaker 1: Uh there you're dealing with you know, white tailed deer

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Speaker 1: the premier. But you get out in West Texas, you've

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Speaker 1: got mule deer, You've got pronghorn antelope, you've got elk

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Speaker 1: and a few places. So a lot of diversity, and

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Speaker 1: you have you know, desert big horn sheep that the

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Speaker 1: state has spent a lot of time and effort restoring sheep,

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Speaker 1: putting them back on mountains in in parts of Texas

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Speaker 1: and fantastic place. That's the way off subject. But how's

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Speaker 1: that project going? Do you still follow that? I keep

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Speaker 1: track of of bighorn sheep in general from a disease perspective,

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Speaker 1: and uh, and disease is a very prominent issue in

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Speaker 1: a in a limiting issue for sheep management across North America.

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Speaker 1: It's always pneumonia. It's a pneumonia complex and when you

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Speaker 1: when you look at the causative factors, it links back

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Speaker 1: to domestic sheep virtually every time. And the states realize that.

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Speaker 1: And you know, if you want to boil it down,

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Speaker 1: if you put desert sheep in the same space or time,

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Speaker 1: you know with domestic sheep, the wild sheep are gonna die.

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Speaker 1: You're gonna lose them. It's pretty It's that simple. So there,

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Speaker 1: you know, sheep management is like a lot of other species.

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Speaker 1: Management obviously need habitat, you know, you need you need

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Speaker 1: spaces or them. You might need to engage in some

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Speaker 1: sort of predator control early on to get them established.

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Speaker 1: But disease is the limiting factor when it comes to

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Speaker 1: sheep pretty much across their range. Uh, there's a few

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Speaker 1: places where, um, where state management agencies, game management agencies

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Speaker 1: identify that there is contact, physical contact or close contact

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Speaker 1: between domestic sheep and the wild sheep, they'll go out

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Speaker 1: and they'll take a herd off a mountain just because

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Speaker 1: they realize the disease. If it gets engaged, you know,

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Speaker 1: embedded in that herd on one mountain, it will spread

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Speaker 1: from there. So, you know, pretty dramatic, sounds pretty draconian,

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Speaker 1: but in order to keep sheep out out there, you know,

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Speaker 1: we have to do some pretty pretty harsh things. Now

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Speaker 1: with the big horn thing, with the desert big horns

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Speaker 1: in Texas, how many are there in Texas? It's a

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Speaker 1: great question, do you all? You know, I have like

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Speaker 1: this very like like this hunter centric way I look

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Speaker 1: at it. I know, I think they give out a

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Speaker 1: tag right there, a big orange tag. It's pretty limited. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So there's probably a few hundred desert sheep. Um. Some

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Speaker 1: of those are gonna be on public land and some

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Speaker 1: of them are going to be on private land. So

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Speaker 1: the state manages you know, pretty tight, you know, hunting access,

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Speaker 1: trying to afford you know, the the great opportunity, and

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Speaker 1: so I think, you know, I don't keep traffic because

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Speaker 1: I haven't been in Texas for you know, twelve thirteen

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Speaker 1: years so since I've been down there and engaged in management.

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Speaker 1: But at that point in time, it seems like we

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Speaker 1: were harvesting, giving way or allocating opportunities to harvest two

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Speaker 1: or three rams per year, and they were great opportunities. Uh,

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Speaker 1: the neat thing, and I'm not sure if they're still

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Speaker 1: doing it. They called it, I think it was called

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Speaker 1: the Big Time Texas Hunts and people could enter into

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Speaker 1: a drawing and the winner got a whitetail hunt, a

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Speaker 1: mule deer hunt, a prong horn hunt, and a desert

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Speaker 1: big horn ram hunt. And they were all quality. They

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Speaker 1: weren't guaranteed hunts. They were quality hunts. You had all

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Speaker 1: that hit all at once, you had you had to work, yeah,

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Speaker 1: but the people that won that that was like, you know,

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Speaker 1: from a from a big game hunting standpoint, and how

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Speaker 1: could you do any better than that? You know, you

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Speaker 1: mentioned predator control ahead of some of the reintroductions they've

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Speaker 1: done with those. I remember man A long time ago

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Speaker 1: when I was uh, I used to do a bit

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Speaker 1: of fur trapping, and I was reading an article and

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Speaker 1: Trapper and Predator Color magazine, and it was the article

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Speaker 1: something like the five hundred thousand dollar Lion, and it

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Speaker 1: was about they did a reintroduction, you know, and moved

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Speaker 1: in a bunch of sheep into this area, and then

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Speaker 1: a single lion systematically like eliminated the whole reintroduction. And

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Speaker 1: so he got he picked up the name of what

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Speaker 1: that whole project cost. Well, when you think about it,

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Speaker 1: you know, you're you're putting sheep on the mountain side

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Speaker 1: that they're not familiar with, and that cat is familiar

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Speaker 1: with every nook and cranny, every water opportunity, every ambush spot,

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Speaker 1: you know, on that mountain side. So who's got the advantage. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he just thinks a bunch of weirdos moved into town

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Speaker 1: who are like very easy to kill. Yeah, So I

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Speaker 1: can you know, I could really see there's a place

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Speaker 1: for predator management early on, you know, to help those herds.

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Speaker 1: If you're going to go to the effort of trying

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Speaker 1: to re establish those sheep on that mountain side, it

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Speaker 1: does it kind of makes sense. To try and give

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Speaker 1: them the best opportunity they can. But once they're once

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Speaker 1: they're established, once those sheep know what's going on. I mean,

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Speaker 1: they evolved with predators, so we don't we don't have to,

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Speaker 1: you know, eliminate predators in order to have you know,

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Speaker 1: sheep on the mountain side. But maybe adding a little

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Speaker 1: bit of balance early on seems pretty reasonable. So from

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Speaker 1: Texas you moved up here to Wisconsin. I did. I

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Speaker 1: moved back home. Yeah, it was the How long is

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Speaker 1: the tell me get I'm sorry? The wildlife disease was

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Speaker 1: was the National Wildlife Health Center? The National Wildlife Health Center?

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Speaker 1: How long has that been in Madison? Uh? Since its

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Speaker 1: inception back in the back in the nineties seventies when

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Speaker 1: it us put together and so we just hit uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's over forty years the center has been.

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Speaker 1: It started out on the u W Madison campus and

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Speaker 1: then we moved out into our facilities on the southwest

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Speaker 1: side of Madison. Now we've been there quite a while.

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Speaker 1: How many this might be hard to This might be

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Speaker 1: hard to answer, but if you have to take a

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Speaker 1: ball apart, how many um wildlife diseases are are being

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Speaker 1: looked at or are of interest to you and your colleagues.

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Speaker 1: I mean, is it is it like over a dozen

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Speaker 1: or yeah, I mean if you had the ballpark it. Well,

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Speaker 1: we're interested in anything that results in mortality events in wildlife.

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Speaker 1: So we don't really look at the single cardinal that's

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Speaker 1: land outside the plate glass window because probably pretty obvious

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Speaker 1: what happened there. But people are our partners, and our

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Speaker 1: partners being states, other federal agencies, tribal partners report mortality

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Speaker 1: and morbidity UM sick or dead events to us, and

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Speaker 1: that's when we get engaged and we try and help

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Speaker 1: understand what the causative agent was, what caused that mortality event.

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Speaker 1: We've been doing that for a long time, but when

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Speaker 1: it in so that's a very important part of our

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Speaker 1: work because our partners rely on us to be able

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Speaker 1: to tell them what's going on and maybe parlay that

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Speaker 1: into some management information. But then the deeper we go,

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Speaker 1: we try and learn and conduct scientific activities research to

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Speaker 1: learn more about the ecological conditions that lead to disease, okay,

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Speaker 1: and then beyond that start working into, where possible, into

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Speaker 1: mechanisms that might be able to help prevent or mitigate

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Speaker 1: the effects of disease. UM. You know you mentioned kind

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Speaker 1: of a number. I guess over the course of time

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Speaker 1: there have been maybe twenty big you know, disease issues

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Speaker 1: that we have seen that we have worked on, you know,

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Speaker 1: some of the recent ones. Uh, you know, we'll talk

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Speaker 1: about chronic wasting disease today. UM. Not too long after

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Speaker 1: c w D we got involved with it, what is

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Speaker 1: now called white nose syndrome and bats. Uh. Pretty interesting disease,

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Speaker 1: a fungal disease that it's one of the rare diseases

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Speaker 1: in wildlife that truly can in part population level impacts. Okay, Um,

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Speaker 1: if you look at caves or hybernacular where white nose

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Speaker 1: syndrome has become established, we see regularly ninety population declines

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Speaker 1: in those hybernacular and that disease is moved quite clearly

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Speaker 1: from east to west. And I believe it's been picked

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Speaker 1: up now in about twenty six states. So, um and

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Speaker 1: having pretty significant impacts. Is it lethal to a lot

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Speaker 1: of species of bats. Um, it's pretty much isolated to

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Speaker 1: those species of bats which hibernate in caves. Okay, you

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Speaker 1: need appropriate conditions for the fungus. It's a cold loving fungus.

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Speaker 1: So it prospers in these hibernacular be they um traditional

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Speaker 1: caves where bats are are hibernating, and sometimes in artificial

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Speaker 1: where minds things like that hibernacular is a cave that

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Speaker 1: that they hibernate in, you bet, and this is there's

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Speaker 1: something to do with that one where UM they feel

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Speaker 1: that some of that spread is coming from humans going

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Speaker 1: into caves. That's a you hear about that. That's a

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Speaker 1: consistent feature with disease in general. Certainly, we we expect

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Speaker 1: that bat to bat movement of disease occurs with white

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Speaker 1: nose syndrome. But there's also a possibility that cavers spelunkers

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Speaker 1: UM with their equipment, could be moving that fungus, that

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Speaker 1: infectious material from cave to cave. So part of the

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Speaker 1: management's UM scenario being enacted by states and federal agencies

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Speaker 1: is limiting access to caves and also encouraging UM spelunkers

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Speaker 1: cavers to thoroughly decontaminate all their equipment. Um. You know,

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Speaker 1: if you're crawling, you know, in through a cave, I

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Speaker 1: mean you're in muck, and you know you look like

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Speaker 1: you've been crawling in a cave. And so certainly if

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Speaker 1: the if the fungus responsible for white noses in one cave,

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Speaker 1: you come out of that, there's a high likelihood that

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Speaker 1: you've got contamination on your ropes, on your gear, on you.

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Speaker 1: And so if the next day you go, you know,

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Speaker 1: three or four miles to another cave, go in there

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Speaker 1: with the same equipment, it's easy to understand and how

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Speaker 1: you might be moving infectious material. And it certainly looks

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Speaker 1: like most of the movement of white nose syndrome is

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Speaker 1: associated with that bat to bat to. That movement is

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Speaker 1: a gradual movement, yep. But now a year ago white

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Speaker 1: nose popped up in the state of Washington. It's a

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Speaker 1: long ways from you know, the most you know, the

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Speaker 1: other closest closest places. So you've got to ask a

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Speaker 1: question how did it get there? And you could go

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Speaker 1: back to the original question, how did you know the

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Speaker 1: fungus get to North America? Turns out that this fungus

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Speaker 1: has been in Europe for probably for a long time,

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Speaker 1: and uh, the hybernacular there the caves where the bats

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Speaker 1: are there seemed to be in general maybe lower densities

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Speaker 1: of bats, and so a balance has created over time

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Speaker 1: where the disease doesn't manifest in in large mortality in

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Speaker 1: the European bats. Uh. Now, somehow that fungus got brought

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Speaker 1: over to this side of the large pond and got

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Speaker 1: into hybernacular cave systems where we have these incredible densities

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Speaker 1: of you know, tens of thousands of bats, you know,

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Speaker 1: congregated in the wintertime. Put a little bit of fungus

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Speaker 1: in there. The bats are hanging in there for literally

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Speaker 1: hanging in there, I guess, over the over the course

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Speaker 1: of the winter, and it provides an opportunity for that

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Speaker 1: fungus to move back to back to bat to bat

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Speaker 1: in that colony. Then in summertime those bats may commingle

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Speaker 1: with bats, or they are coming from other hybernacular or

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Speaker 1: than they may in fact themselves spend the next winter

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Speaker 1: in the next hybernacular. And so you can see how

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Speaker 1: that fungus has an opportunity to move. But it's long

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Speaker 1: as the fungus take to be fatal, probably most of

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Speaker 1: in this is not my area of expertise, but I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna say probably most of the winner. Um. So, if

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Speaker 1: the fungus is in a cave, it's going to get

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Speaker 1: on a bat soon after, you know, they move in

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Speaker 1: for you know, for hibernation season, and then you know,

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Speaker 1: I think we see most of the mortality kind of

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Speaker 1: in the debt of winter the bats. The bats will

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Speaker 1: sometimes die in the cave. Some of them will die

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Speaker 1: in the cave. Um. Another thing that one of the

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Speaker 1: things that people observe is um. You know, bats flying

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Speaker 1: around in the debt of winter. Okay, when those bats

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Speaker 1: are are all reliant on insects as their food, and

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Speaker 1: if it's zero degrees outside, that bad is there's no

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Speaker 1: food available. So something has aroused or woken that bad up.

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Speaker 1: And it could be you know, the discomfort associated with

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Speaker 1: you know, having a fungus all across your body. Uh.

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Speaker 1: You know, they're they're using energy resources. You know, they're

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Speaker 1: in a very delicate balance when they go into hibernation,

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Speaker 1: so they don't have a ton of energy left over

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Speaker 1: to spare. So maybe that that fungus is causing some irritation,

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Speaker 1: you know, some physical irritation, some problems with thermal regulation

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Speaker 1: as as the fungus is might be causing holes in

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Speaker 1: the potadium on the bat's wing. So they're they're running

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Speaker 1: out of energy and with there, if they're completely out

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Speaker 1: of energy, they're gonna have to go outside and try

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Speaker 1: and hunt, and hunting in January in northern latitudes it's

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Speaker 1: not going to be successful. There are no there are

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Speaker 1: no insects available. So I take that that contributes to

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Speaker 1: the diseases that you know, they're they're short on energy

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Speaker 1: come middle of winter and they just can't make it through.

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Speaker 1: So jumping on from there into c w D and

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Speaker 1: the reason like kind of the reason that our audience,

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Speaker 1: well I know the reason are on it is interested

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Speaker 1: in c w D because we have a lot of

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Speaker 1: people we hang out with and who listen, who eat

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Speaker 1: a lot of venison, okay, avid deer hunters, And the

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Speaker 1: question we get all the time is like, what do

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Speaker 1: you think about c w D? What's gonna happen with

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Speaker 1: c w D? And is my dear safety, would you

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Speaker 1: eat a deer if it has w D? And um,

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Speaker 1: I'm always like, I'm always uh brimming over with opinions

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Speaker 1: about everything, but I'm always really hesitant to talk about

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Speaker 1: something that has so many question marks. And I think

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Speaker 1: we'll probably in talking to you about this, will probably

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Speaker 1: butt up against a lot of those question marks, maybe

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Speaker 1: to a point where you don't even I feel like

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Speaker 1: you know where you you feel like you've moved beyond

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Speaker 1: the known the known science, and you're just going into

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Speaker 1: pure speculations. So I realized that's gonna happen. If and

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Speaker 1: if you do get up to a thing where I'm

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Speaker 1: asking you an opinion and you don't want to give it,

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Speaker 1: that's great. But I think the safe way to begin

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Speaker 1: and talk about this. Can you explain the relationship between

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Speaker 1: when we hear about mad cow disease, we hear about

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Speaker 1: chronic waste and disease, and then we hear about jacob. Okay,

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Speaker 1: they're all kind of cousins, right, I mean, can you

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Speaker 1: break down that fan the tree? Sure? I can t.

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Speaker 1: Scrape scrape is another one. Transmissible mink and cephalopathy is

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Speaker 1: another one. So all right, all of the diseases you

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Speaker 1: mentioned c w D and deer scrape in sheep, BSc

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Speaker 1: or mad cow disease in in in cattle, and that's

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Speaker 1: spongeforn spongeyform and cephalopathy kreuz failed yacops disease in humans.

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Speaker 1: There's another one in humans that we don't see anymore.

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Speaker 1: It's called cubu. Okay, all of these diseases are members

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Speaker 1: of a family of diseases called transmissible spongeyform and cephalopathy

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Speaker 1: or T S S. Great big long words and you

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Speaker 1: look it up in the dictionary and it boils down

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Speaker 1: pretty simple. And cephalopathy is a disease of the brain. Okay.

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Speaker 1: Spongeyform means spongy or holes, and transmissible means very bit

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Speaker 1: simply that a disease can be transmitted from animal A

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Speaker 1: to animal B. It's amissible spongy brain, yeah, something like that,

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Speaker 1: something like that, and so, but it's important to understand

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Speaker 1: that the source of that spongy nous or the holes

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Speaker 1: in the brain as well. These diseases are the causative

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Speaker 1: agent is a protein, okay, being very different than virtually

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Speaker 1: any other disease we know of. You think of viruses,

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Speaker 1: we think of you know, bacteria, we think of you know,

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Speaker 1: in the case of white nose syndrome, you know, an

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Speaker 1: invasive fungus. Okay, all of those are in essence living entities.

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Speaker 1: They have nucleic material they so we can see how

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Speaker 1: they can reproduce, we can see how they can evolve

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Speaker 1: over time. So you come back to the cause of agent.

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Speaker 1: For T. S S, a protein that's referred to as

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Speaker 1: a preon and so you get into it's kind of

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Speaker 1: challenging to to put this in the same sense as

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Speaker 1: you know viruses and bacteria because they don't have genetic material.

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Speaker 1: So these, right, well not really a protein is not

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Speaker 1: necessarily a living entity. We don't. But but I mean,

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Speaker 1: but it causes I'll try, I'll try. So all mammals

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Speaker 1: produce a normal cellular preon protein. Okay. It's a chain

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Speaker 1: of amino acids. It's about two fifty long, so it's

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Speaker 1: a relatively small protein. And so if you go back

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Speaker 1: to what you learned in in biology class about proteins,

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Speaker 1: it's a chain of amino acids that then folds up

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Speaker 1: into a three dimensional shape. Okay, So all mammals produce

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Speaker 1: normal prion proteins. We're not certain exactly what they do,

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Speaker 1: but they they're very efficient, okay, in the body and

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Speaker 1: produced by all mammals. And it seemed like produced a

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Speaker 1: lot of normal cellular prem pro tein in the central

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Speaker 1: nervous system as well. When a preon protein is produced,

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Speaker 1: it's produced in an in an extra cellular environment, or

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Speaker 1: or coded for it does whatever it does. It might

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Speaker 1: be involved in intracellular communication. But then that normal cellular

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Speaker 1: preon protein is broken down, it's recycled by the body,

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Speaker 1: has a half life of maybe between four and six hours.

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Speaker 1: So it's produced, it does what it does. It's broken

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Speaker 1: down by the body and then recycled into its normal parts. Okay,

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Speaker 1: then there is this disease associated preon protein. It's the

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Speaker 1: exact same sequence of amino acids. It's folded up into

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Speaker 1: a different three dimensional form. So if you think of

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Speaker 1: if you took a piece of of a really old

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Speaker 1: rubber band, you know that's been sitting in a drawer

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Speaker 1: for several years. It's wound up into a three dimensional shape.

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Speaker 1: So if you think of that as the normal form,

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Speaker 1: and then you stretch it out and you let it

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Speaker 1: go and it and it snaps back into a different form,

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Speaker 1: that's in essence what we're looking at. Okay, a different

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Speaker 1: three dimensional form of the same protein. And this different form,

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Speaker 1: the disease associated preon, has radically different properties. Um I

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Speaker 1: mentioned a normal cellular preon protein breaks down on its

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Speaker 1: own in about four to six hours, or has a

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Speaker 1: half life of four to six hours. The disease associated

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Speaker 1: form is persistent. Um if it's can persist in the

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Speaker 1: environment for years, potentially up to decades. Okay. It also

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Speaker 1: cannot be broken down by ultra violet light. Um, it's

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Speaker 1: very insensitive to change is in temperature. So if you

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Speaker 1: want to destroy UH disease associated preon protein, you'd have

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Speaker 1: to get it up to maybe six D plus degrees centigrade.

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Speaker 1: So you're not going to cook it out of out

382
00:23:55,640 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 1: of a stake, per se. So erradically different protein. It's

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Speaker 1: the same protein with radically different form and radically different characteristics.

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Speaker 1: It looks like um, this is a more or less

385
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Speaker 1: like a template where a single disease associated prion protein

386
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:22,440
Speaker 1: enters into a healthy, susceptible animal. That disease associated protein

387
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:27,600
Speaker 1: makes physical contact with the normal cellular protein, causing it

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00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:33,040
Speaker 1: to unfold and refold into its own form and then

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00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:36,960
Speaker 1: moving on, so creating kind of a cascading interaction where

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00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:41,720
Speaker 1: the disease associated form takes over the system. Okay, And

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Speaker 1: the disease associated prion protein in the body is associated

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Speaker 1: with neuronal death, and so when we talk about that

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Speaker 1: that spongy appearance of the brain, those are holes where

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Speaker 1: neurons used to be and as and as the disease

395
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,919
Speaker 1: associated prion proteins come in contact. We don't know the

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Speaker 1: exact mechanism of how they kill neurons. What they do.

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Speaker 1: They result in neuronal death, leaving those microscopic holes in

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Speaker 1: the brain. So that's the physical mechanism of how we

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Speaker 1: get to you know, that trend, that sponge a form

400
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Speaker 1: and cephalopathy. So without equipment, because you are the naked eye,

401
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 1: look at like a grossly infected brain until now you

402
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 1: want the holes aren't quite that large, So the neurons

403
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 1: aren't that large. Saying even so, even so it would

404
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 1: appear even if even if it was, this brain was

405
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 1: racked with the stuff, they would never like shape change

406
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 1: the form of the brain. You look at and look

407
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Speaker 1: like a normal brain unless you look at it under

408
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:50,199
Speaker 1: a microscope and some special standing, then you would be

409
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 1: able to see it that the hallmark of of all

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00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:59,919
Speaker 1: ts c s is progressive neurological degeneration. Okay, you slow

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Speaker 1: lee are losing the capability to be a functional being.

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Speaker 1: And if you if you look at kreuzfeldiakops disease, one

413
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Speaker 1: of the human the human t s S. It affects

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Speaker 1: um We see new cases about one in a million

415
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Speaker 1: to one and a half per million. New cases per

416
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:23,639
Speaker 1: year in humans the typical clinical figures, and it is

417
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Speaker 1: a person in their late fifties to early sixties, say

418
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Speaker 1: one on one in one million, one in a million

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Speaker 1: in new cases per year. And is that is that

420
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Speaker 1: globally or nationally? That's globally, But is it true? Is

421
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,200
Speaker 1: it true in an international sense? I say to say

422
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Speaker 1: that three hundred Americans a year get this? Yeah, yeah,

423
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Speaker 1: probably pretty close. If we've got three hundred million, we're

424
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:49,399
Speaker 1: probably looking at three cases per year in humans in

425
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Speaker 1: the United States. And yeah, that's a ballpark figure. Um

426
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Speaker 1: horrific way to go. Progressive neurological degeneration followed by death.

427
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 1: And we think about, you know, as these disease associated

428
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 1: prion proteins accumulate in the in the brain and in

429
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 1: the central nervous system, resulting in neurnal death, it's easy

430
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,719
Speaker 1: to see how you know, once that reaches a critical mass,

431
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 1: you know, inside of the central nervous system, um neurological

432
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 1: degeneration proceeds fairly quickly and is followed by death. So

433
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,359
Speaker 1: that's the hallmark of each one of the t s S.

434
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 1: Was the same thing in BSc or mad cow disease,

435
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 1: where you know, You probably remember seeing videos of cows

436
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 1: that are just you know, they're nobody's home right now.

437
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 1: That's they it's reached that phase. Um another hallmark of

438
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 1: of the t s s as tremendously long incubation period.

439
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 1: So in Kreutzfeld Jakob's disease, we you know, it's hard

440
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 1: to say how long that disease has been progressing in individuals,

441
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 1: but it seems to manifest in that clinical phase of

442
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 1: disease at the same time for him, that late fifties

443
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,359
Speaker 1: into early sixties. But you don't know what like, it

444
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 1: doesn't spontaneously generate. It has to be the that the

445
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 1: person in the case of the of the human form,

446
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 1: it has to be the that the person somehow took

447
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:21,359
Speaker 1: in the infectious agent, and that's uncertain with m with

448
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,919
Speaker 1: c j D chrust failed THEOS disease, It's thought that

449
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 1: most of the normal cases are sporadic or spontaneous in

450
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 1: those individuals, that something just happened. Okay, they're during you know,

451
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 1: the course of the lifetime that started that cascading interaction

452
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 1: with one or multiple pre on normal cellular preons tipping

453
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 1: over into that disease associated form and starting that cascading interaction,

454
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 1: So it's not necessarily that they rubbed noses with with

455
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 1: another infected person. Correct in in the majority of case

456
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 1: is in that classical c j D profile. Either that

457
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 1: or we have been unable to identify the moment the causation,

458
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 1: you know, the causative event. We can contrast that a

459
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 1: little bit with another disease, really remarkable disease called kuru.

460
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:22,360
Speaker 1: Okay Couru was first described, uh back in the nineteen

461
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 1: twenties nineteen thirties someplace in there in Papua New Guinea

462
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 1: in a tribe called the Farai tribe Fo r E,

463
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 1: and the Faray had a rather what we guess we

464
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 1: would consider an unusual trait, and they practiced ritualized cannibalism.

465
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 1: So when one of their tribal members died, to honor

466
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 1: that tribal member, they consumed the body okay, and somehow

467
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 1: a t SC got into that population. And so when

468
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 1: the ritualist cannibalism occurred, it created an opportunity for transmission

469
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 1: of you know, the disease associated agent for the disease

470
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 1: associated prion protein, and so kuru developed over the course

471
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 1: of a few decades into an epidemic situation. It started

472
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 1: very small, so when one person died of curu uh,

473
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 1: their body was consumed maybe leading to other cases. They

474
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 1: infected multiple individuals. Then after a fairly protracted incubation period,

475
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 1: some of those individuals died very horrific death, you know,

476
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 1: after you know, severe neuronal degeneration. They were consumed and

477
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 1: so you can see how that cascading interaction. So they're

478
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 1: very clearly there was a consumption you know, some sort

479
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 1: of of a foraging habit which lead to disease that

480
00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 1: coincidentally is identical or virtually identical to what happened with

481
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 1: bovine sponge form and cephalopathy or you know BSc mad

482
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 1: cow disease, where it seems like we were trying to

483
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 1: create maximum efficiency in in a livestock production system. So

484
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 1: there's a lot of waste when you butcher a cow,

485
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 1: there's a lot of waste. There's you know, the the awful,

486
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 1: the hide bones, things like that, and so we all

487
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 1: realized that you know, cows produced better with on a

488
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 1: higher protein diet. So it made sense, it made logical

489
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 1: sense from a production standpoint to take the awful from

490
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 1: you know, when you're slaughtering cattle to render it, cook it,

491
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 1: and then mix it up into a high protein food source,

492
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 1: mix it with other with other forage material, and feed

493
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 1: it back to cows. So in essence, what we were

494
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 1: doing was we were creating cannibalistic cows, right, you know,

495
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 1: we're feeding cow back to cow. It's not a normal

496
00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 1: it's an adherent foraging behavior. So somehow we got the

497
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 1: first case of BSc in a cow. That cow either

498
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 1: died from b SC or was you know processed normally

499
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 1: at you know, for for beef production, whatever the case

500
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 1: may be. The infectious material being concentrated in the spinal

501
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 1: cord and the brain of that first cow was rendered

502
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 1: not quite effectively enough to to uh, to deactivate the

503
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 1: infectious It didn't get it didn't get quite warm enough,

504
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 1: and so uh, that cow, in essence was fed back

505
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 1: to thousands those some of those animals developed bs and

506
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 1: so you're trying to maximize the use of the carcasses,

507
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 1: so you grind that up and feed it back to

508
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 1: more and so the numbers look like, you know, they

509
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 1: were probably potentially millions of cows at one point that

510
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:07,239
Speaker 1: we're infected with with b SC. And as soon as epidemiologists,

511
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 1: you know, disease specialists figured out, you know, it seemed like, yeah,

512
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 1: this has got to be a food born thing, and

513
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 1: they were able to figure out what it was band

514
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 1: feeding bovine protein back to other cows, and the cycle stopped,

515
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 1: in essence stopped, And so we had an epidemic curve

516
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 1: that went ran like it looked like it was going

517
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 1: straight up a mountain side. And as soon as you

518
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 1: figure out what was going on and you stop that practice,

519
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 1: the epidemic curve comes down the other side. Now there's

520
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 1: still a few cases out there periodically today, but not

521
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 1: the volume that there were, Like the US has only

522
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,479
Speaker 1: had one, right, some coward of Yakima, Washington, right, Well

523
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 1: that was the first one. We've had a few more

524
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 1: than that. UM. Yeah, it's kind of interesting in that

525
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 1: UM we can talk about how c w D moved around,

526
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 1: but it looks almost certainly like the United States gave

527
00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 1: Canada c w D um through movement of captive ELK

528
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 1: back in the night or potentially early nine before the UM.

529
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 1: It was we'd identified what was going on, our scientists

530
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:13,280
Speaker 1: had had identified what was going on, But it's certainly

531
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 1: we was prior to knowledge of how movement of of

532
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 1: animals could really contribute to movement of disease. But it

533
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 1: looks like almost certainly that we gave CWD to Canada

534
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:27,799
Speaker 1: and so maybe it was only fitting that they sent

535
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 1: B A C back to us in return. So let

536
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 1: me back you up a little bit here. I want

537
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 1: to get to that, But let me back up. Have

538
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:40,319
Speaker 1: are there known cases I should know this, but don't

539
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:44,360
Speaker 1: Are there known cases where they could track the mad

540
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:51,719
Speaker 1: cow form having passed into a human, like do they

541
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:55,399
Speaker 1: are they able to able to trail that? Yes? Yes,

542
00:34:55,600 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 1: pretty clearly. Yeah. We mentioned kreutzfeldi ocups diseases being kind

543
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 1: of that classic disease the clinical profile as a person

544
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 1: late fifties, early sixties. There's another form, it's called variant

545
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 1: Kreutzfeld jacops disease. And the first cases were detected in

546
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:16,800
Speaker 1: largely in Great Britain in the same time frame. A

547
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 1: little bit later after the BSc crisis began in in

548
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:26,080
Speaker 1: Great Britain as well. These humans were exhibiting very you know,

549
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 1: similar characteristics and when they died it was very apparent

550
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 1: from uh, from their autopsy, from looking at the spinal

551
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 1: and the brain material that they had a sponge a

552
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:39,879
Speaker 1: form and cephalopathy, and they were able to tie that

553
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:45,960
Speaker 1: statistically back to consumption of beef from you know, from

554
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,960
Speaker 1: the from the mad cow ord the b SC situation.

555
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,719
Speaker 1: So here's an instance in BSc is A is A

556
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:57,360
Speaker 1: is A isn't very interesting disease that it was able

557
00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 1: to jump across that species bar arier. So it it

558
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:05,280
Speaker 1: was not just a disease of cattle. When we fed

559
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:10,440
Speaker 1: BSc positive material to multiple other species, including humans, it

560
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 1: lead to disease. And so that variant c j D Verian,

561
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 1: kreuz Felt, Jakobs disease profile seemed to be humans that

562
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 1: were a lot younger, you know, typically in twenties and thirties,

563
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:23,879
Speaker 1: things like that. So it looked like c j D

564
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 1: what it, but it acted different and so that was

565
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 1: kind of the first tie. Was there a possibility that

566
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 1: BSc crossed over And now it's it's fairly certain um

567
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:38,360
Speaker 1: that BSc did cross over into humans, bridging that species

568
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 1: barrier um. And you might come back and wonder whell

569
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:45,280
Speaker 1: where did b SC come from? Well that's an interesting question.

570
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 1: But one of the possibilities is that you know it

571
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:52,919
Speaker 1: originated as as scrapy, you know, in sheep, and that's

572
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 1: one of the t s s we haven't gotten to yet,

573
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:57,919
Speaker 1: but that's one has been known longer than any Uh

574
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:01,680
Speaker 1: scraping and sheep was first document mented in the literature

575
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 1: in seventeen thirty four, so it's been around for a

576
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:08,360
Speaker 1: very long time, and they probably could only tell the

577
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:12,280
Speaker 1: behavior of the dying animal right at that point in time. Yeah,

578
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 1: and uh, scrapy has been been a problem for you know,

579
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:21,400
Speaker 1: for you know, many years, decades to centuries. But it

580
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 1: looks like scrapy may crossed over into b SC and

581
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:30,880
Speaker 1: certainly it's it's one plausible explanation for for where chronic

582
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:33,800
Speaker 1: wasting disease came from. You know, c w D first

583
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:36,880
Speaker 1: described back in nineteen sixty seven in a in a

584
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,920
Speaker 1: research facility out in the state of Colorado. Doesn't mean

585
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:42,759
Speaker 1: it's started there, but it was first described there. And

586
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 1: when we say c w D, we're talking about not

587
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 1: so we're talking about just members of the deer family.

588
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,319
Speaker 1: Kerry c w D. As far as we know, c

589
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:56,360
Speaker 1: w D is the T S C of members of

590
00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 1: the servant or the deer family. Name which which species

591
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 1: it's been founded, Okay, it has been detected in free

592
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:11,960
Speaker 1: ranging and captive white tail mule deer elk, a handful

593
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:16,720
Speaker 1: of cases in moose and in reindeer as well, most

594
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:21,240
Speaker 1: recently picked up in reindeer. Three reindeer and a couple

595
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 1: of moose in Norway. You know, the first cases UM

596
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,280
Speaker 1: outside of North America other than a game farm situation

597
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:31,840
Speaker 1: in South Korea. So we talk about distribution of c

598
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 1: w D in those species, and it's been picked up

599
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 1: in in twenty four states in free ranging and or

600
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:44,440
Speaker 1: captive situations in North America. UH. Two provinces Alberta and

601
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 1: Saskatchewan in Canada also picked up and described in South

602
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:53,319
Speaker 1: Korea UM and in South and South Korea DIN they

603
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:59,800
Speaker 1: have some American deer. Okay, Actually, yeah, it's interesting k

604
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:04,880
Speaker 1: because the the original animals that died were elk that

605
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 1: still had Canadian ear tags in them, and so it's

606
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:12,799
Speaker 1: highly unlikely that those elk UM you know, swam the

607
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:16,400
Speaker 1: big pond from North America over to South Korea. So

608
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 1: I think we can we can pretty clearly identify how,

609
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaker 1: you know, how those animals and how diseased moved UM.

610
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:27,680
Speaker 1: Now there's been additional outbreaks in South Korea so it

611
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:30,920
Speaker 1: looks like their efforts to you know, stamp out or

612
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,680
Speaker 1: keep the disease under control, I haven't have had some success,

613
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:37,319
Speaker 1: but they haven't been completely successful in that they They've

614
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:43,759
Speaker 1: had a few additional outbreaks in Norway. Norway's real interesting situation.

615
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 1: And I don't I don't know that we'll ever truly

616
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 1: know how, um how c w D got there. It

617
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 1: was picked up um, you know, a year ago in um,

618
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 1: initially in a reindeer, and then after they did they

619
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:00,919
Speaker 1: did some additional surveillance outbreaks a valance, and they found

620
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:03,880
Speaker 1: it in two more reindeer. They also found it in

621
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 1: two moose. Okay uh. And it's kind of it's interesting

622
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 1: if the moose live near the reindeer, they were not.

623
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:14,319
Speaker 1: The moose were quite a distance away. And as you're

624
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 1: you're full aware, and you know, moose are relatively solitary animals.

625
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 1: They don't hang out in big herds. And so the

626
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 1: cases we've seen in moose and even in North America

627
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:26,799
Speaker 1: been you know, just one here, one there. I think

628
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,239
Speaker 1: it's you know, less than ten total cases in all

629
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 1: of North America and free ranging moose, so they don't

630
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:35,359
Speaker 1: seem to be a real big player. They're certainly susceptible um,

631
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:37,760
Speaker 1: you know to c w D, but they don't seem

632
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:41,000
Speaker 1: to be a real big player in movement of disease. Uh.

633
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:45,640
Speaker 1: Now with the reindeer again, as you're aware reindeer are

634
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:49,319
Speaker 1: you know, they hang together in very large herds. So

635
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 1: science was completed a few years ago that strongly suggested

636
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 1: reindeer were susceptible to c w D. But we have

637
00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 1: not seen an outbreak in North America. So they instance

638
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:04,319
Speaker 1: in Norway, now pick it up in three reindeer is

639
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:08,239
Speaker 1: the first instance in free ranging herds. Well, the Norwegians

640
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:12,960
Speaker 1: are very very concerned about this, and uh, and so

641
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:16,920
Speaker 1: they are they're kind of taking the gloves off with

642
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 1: regard to management, something that we have not really been

643
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 1: effective at dealing with disease in free ranging populations in

644
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:27,399
Speaker 1: North America. They're going to take the gloves off over there.

645
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:34,920
Speaker 1: And so the reindeer maintain relatively static herd structures hanging

646
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:38,719
Speaker 1: together in a in a known geographic area. And so

647
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:44,280
Speaker 1: the plan is to um to eliminate, eradicate one whole

648
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:48,840
Speaker 1: herd unit of about two thousand reindeer over a fairly

649
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:51,839
Speaker 1: large geographic area now it will be a little bit

650
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:54,799
Speaker 1: easier than uh than trying to get rid of all

651
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:57,279
Speaker 1: the white tail in a region, because they are they

652
00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:01,320
Speaker 1: you know, they hang together, and they're in more open countries,

653
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:04,799
Speaker 1: more open countries, So it will they will be able

654
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:08,640
Speaker 1: to pull it off. But hats off to the Norwegian

655
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:12,280
Speaker 1: government and their you know, their natural resources and agriculture folks.

656
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:14,799
Speaker 1: They look at this. It's a very serious issue. They

657
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 1: have observed what has been going on in North America

658
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:21,560
Speaker 1: with cw D over the last few decades, and they concluded, hey,

659
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:25,279
Speaker 1: they don't want it be when you own when you

660
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:29,319
Speaker 1: so far, it seems like that disease, however it got there,

661
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:35,280
Speaker 1: is a fairly recent phenomena, and so with c w D,

662
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:38,319
Speaker 1: I would argue that you probably get one chance at

663
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:41,560
Speaker 1: effective management of c w D in a free ranching population.

664
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 1: It has to be early. And so they fully they believe,

665
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:48,160
Speaker 1: based on the data they have that c w D

666
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:51,080
Speaker 1: has not been there long. They don't want it. So

667
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 1: they're going to take the gloves off. They're going to

668
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 1: eliminate this herd unit, and they're going to keep all

669
00:42:56,920 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 1: other animals out of the geographic area where they heard

670
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:03,880
Speaker 1: where this herd, you know, has lived for a minimum

671
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:08,239
Speaker 1: of five years. We talked about that that UM characteristic

672
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:11,919
Speaker 1: of the disease associated pre on protein UM not being

673
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:14,279
Speaker 1: able to be degraded in the environment. It looks like

674
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 1: it persists in the environment for years, potentially decades, and

675
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 1: can remain viable and bioavailable. So healthy, naive, susceptible animals

676
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 1: can pick up that disease associated preon protein from contaminated environment.

677
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 1: If you catch disease early enough, early enough in the epidemic,

678
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:38,799
Speaker 1: there's probably not much of that contamination relative to you know,

679
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:42,880
Speaker 1: later on. So if you're going to be successful with

680
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:46,440
Speaker 1: managing this disease, you have to catch it early and

681
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 1: you probably have to take the gloves off the way

682
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 1: the Norwegians are doing now. You may recall back to

683
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:57,120
Speaker 1: Wisconsin back in two thousand and two, Well hit me

684
00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:01,000
Speaker 1: with Colorado. So what happened in Colorado? All right? So

685
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:04,759
Speaker 1: that that was where they identified it in the US. Yeah, Well,

686
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:09,360
Speaker 1: CWD was first described in this research facility in Colorado

687
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:16,600
Speaker 1: back in n They were research animals, they were they

688
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 1: were captive animals. They were research animals maintained by the

689
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:26,520
Speaker 1: by the state of Colorado. Now part of the history

690
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 1: of CWD is that there may have been disease research

691
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:35,680
Speaker 1: going on with scrapey in that vicinity or the same area,

692
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:39,279
Speaker 1: or you know, maybe even the same facility. So one

693
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:43,279
Speaker 1: of the possible mechanisms for where cw D came from,

694
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:45,959
Speaker 1: and it's not the only one, is that what we're

695
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:50,880
Speaker 1: looking at is scrapy and deer. Cw D and scrapey

696
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:54,840
Speaker 1: have some really unique characteristics. All the rest of the

697
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:59,319
Speaker 1: t sc s be at um kreuz feldacops disease be

698
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 1: a be se and cattle, they don't move on their own.

699
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:05,759
Speaker 1: We had to feed cow to cow in order to

700
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:10,799
Speaker 1: create an epidemic with b SC. With Guru, people had

701
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:14,920
Speaker 1: to consume people, okay, in order for disease to move.

702
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:17,840
Speaker 1: Scrape and c w D are unique amongst the t

703
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 1: s c s and that they are contagious. They are

704
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:25,799
Speaker 1: freely laterally transmissible, so dear a or elk can give

705
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:28,839
Speaker 1: c w D to another animal on its own. There

706
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:32,239
Speaker 1: doesn't need to be any human intervention. Scrapey is the

707
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:35,399
Speaker 1: same way it moves sheep to sheep to sheep. These

708
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:41,560
Speaker 1: animals are shedding infectious agent through bodily fluids through saliva,

709
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:48,160
Speaker 1: through urine, through feces, and that creates a contagious mechanism.

710
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:52,960
Speaker 1: If that saliva is taken up by another animal, a healthy, naive,

711
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:57,120
Speaker 1: susceptible animal, it can lead to disease transmission. So we

712
00:45:57,239 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 1: go back to the Colorado thing. One of the possibility

713
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:04,799
Speaker 1: might be that c w D originated and transit transferred

714
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 1: across the species barrier from scrapy. You look at the timeline.

715
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 1: I mentioned that that scrapey was first described in seventeen

716
00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 1: thirty four on the other side of the pond. The

717
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:20,480
Speaker 1: first time scrapy was described in North America was in

718
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:24,759
Speaker 1: ninety and it was traced back to a flock of

719
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:29,520
Speaker 1: sheep that had been moved across the pond, so human intervention.

720
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:33,240
Speaker 1: But over the course of the next twenty years, scrape

721
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:38,520
Speaker 1: had proliferated and been moved um, largely by humans moving

722
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 1: sheep around. Scrape had moved um across across a lot

723
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:47,719
Speaker 1: of North America as well. So the time and the

724
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:51,360
Speaker 1: place if we think scrapey came to North America around

725
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:54,880
Speaker 1: and the first time c w D was described was

726
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:58,560
Speaker 1: about twenty years later out in Colorado, that's what we

727
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:02,120
Speaker 1: would we would refer to as as as a parsimonious

728
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:05,600
Speaker 1: solution for where CWD came from. We can't prove it,

729
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:08,279
Speaker 1: though there are other positives. Some people are kind of

730
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:14,160
Speaker 1: I don't fully understand why, but there's like, um, there's

731
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:17,560
Speaker 1: some resistance to that. I gather because if you start

732
00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:21,239
Speaker 1: reading on the web, you'll find people making like very

733
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:29,040
Speaker 1: spirited arguments that that, uh, it's always been here. Do

734
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:31,080
Speaker 1: you even want to do you even care to speak

735
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:33,920
Speaker 1: to that? Well? Yeah, I would. I can take take

736
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:40,200
Speaker 1: a stab at that. Okay. So CWD in these places

737
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:43,920
Speaker 1: where it has been established the longest places in Colorado,

738
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:48,359
Speaker 1: place in Wyoming, in the South Converse Unit in UH

739
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:53,080
Speaker 1: in Converse County, Wyoming. I think we're not far behind

740
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:57,600
Speaker 1: in in Iowa County not far from here, Iowa County, Wisconsin.

741
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:03,960
Speaker 1: Places where cw D has been established for a while decades,

742
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:08,440
Speaker 1: we've see two phenomenon. Number one, we see geographic spreads,

743
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:10,920
Speaker 1: so dear to deer to deer, you know it starts

744
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:15,360
Speaker 1: spreading from there. Number Two, we see increases in prevalence

745
00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:18,440
Speaker 1: or the proportion of animals that are afflicted by c

746
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:23,840
Speaker 1: w D in some of these places. UM in UH, Wyoming,

747
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:28,360
Speaker 1: south Converse County, in a few areas in Colorado, U

748
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 1: just south here in Iowa County, prevalence has reached up

749
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:35,200
Speaker 1: into the area in adult male so we're talking two

750
00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:39,239
Speaker 1: and a half an older aged animals. Deer prevalence in

751
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:43,320
Speaker 1: the forty to fifty percent range. So you think about that.

752
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:46,399
Speaker 1: So you go out hunting and you're you're lucky enough

753
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:48,640
Speaker 1: to be able to tag, you know, in a three

754
00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 1: and a half year old buck, take a coin out

755
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:53,920
Speaker 1: of your pocket, flip it up in the air, and

756
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:56,600
Speaker 1: those are the odds that that deer has c w D.

757
00:48:57,520 --> 00:49:00,880
Speaker 1: So when prevalence gets to that level, we start to

758
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:04,560
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, that's the science. The numbers suggest

759
00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:08,360
Speaker 1: that we're going to start seeing population level impacts that

760
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:14,320
Speaker 1: a population cannot sustain that level of disease. So because

761
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:18,440
Speaker 1: it's I see this all the time, because it's always fatal,

762
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:22,360
Speaker 1: it is. It's a fatal disease. Now you'll get arguments

763
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 1: and and somebody right now when they're listening to this

764
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:28,440
Speaker 1: is gonna say, always full of crap, it's not always fatal.

765
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:32,080
Speaker 1: And the argument that I typically here goes along something

766
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:34,360
Speaker 1: like this, that so a deer head c w D

767
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:36,960
Speaker 1: and a hunter shot that dear. That dear didn't die

768
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:42,239
Speaker 1: of c w D died of paracute lead poisoning. UM.

769
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:46,920
Speaker 1: But it isn't if If a disease is allowed to progress,

770
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:49,880
Speaker 1: it is fatal. You think about it and what I

771
00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:54,319
Speaker 1: describe other thing happened airing, some other thing happening. Um,

772
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:57,719
Speaker 1: that disease is always going to be fatal. Once you

773
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:01,640
Speaker 1: start to see that that neurologic go degeneration in the brain.

774
00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:06,280
Speaker 1: It's progressive. There's no way to stop that domino effect

775
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:11,480
Speaker 1: of the disease associated prions proliferating through the brain resulting

776
00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 1: in neronal death. There's no stopping that. There's no reversing

777
00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:16,960
Speaker 1: the damage. And how long could it take? But I

778
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:18,440
Speaker 1: guess it's hard to answer because you don't know what

779
00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:22,960
Speaker 1: the beginning is in UM. Like if you say, like

780
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:26,960
Speaker 1: I want to get back to I'm getting ideas stacked

781
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:28,600
Speaker 1: on top of each other here. But what is run

782
00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:30,359
Speaker 1: with this for a minute. When you hear people say

783
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:35,200
Speaker 1: it's always fatal. So you know, a deer that gets

784
00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:38,640
Speaker 1: to be like a buck, let's say that gets to

785
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:42,280
Speaker 1: be five years old, he's already super old anyways, Okay,

786
00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:44,600
Speaker 1: So if it's always fatal, Like, how do you how

787
00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 1: do you measure that? Because you don't know when they

788
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:48,000
Speaker 1: got it in the first place. So I was gonna

789
00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:50,000
Speaker 1: ask it how long it takes to kill a deer,

790
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:53,480
Speaker 1: but you probably can't say, like, today, this deer got

791
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 1: c w D. Let's watch and see when he dies.

792
00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:59,920
Speaker 1: We will never be able to truly identify the effect

793
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:04,840
Speaker 1: this moment, but we can track when mortality occurs, and

794
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:08,640
Speaker 1: we can look at at um sex and age ratios

795
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:12,440
Speaker 1: of animals that are harvested, and then we know how

796
00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:15,319
Speaker 1: many of them those that are sampled, we know whether

797
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:18,840
Speaker 1: they were CWD positive CWD negative, so we can do

798
00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:22,320
Speaker 1: a little back calculation. We do know from based on

799
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:26,080
Speaker 1: studies in in pen pen situations. If you take your

800
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:30,360
Speaker 1: garden variety, you know, dear uh, the incubation period for

801
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:33,520
Speaker 1: cw D is probably between eighteen and twenty four months,

802
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:35,680
Speaker 1: so you want to think it's maybe a two year disease.

803
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:40,120
Speaker 1: That animal looks perfectly healthy um all the way through

804
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:43,920
Speaker 1: that incubation period up until maybe six eight weeks before

805
00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:48,360
Speaker 1: the end, and then they start really looking ragged and

806
00:51:48,680 --> 00:51:52,640
Speaker 1: you think about the accumulation of that disease associated preonic

807
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 1: protein in the brain. At first, it's probably having no

808
00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:59,000
Speaker 1: effect on the animal at all. Then during the course

809
00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:01,920
Speaker 1: of disease it looks like an exponential curve going up

810
00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:05,640
Speaker 1: and towards the end, do you see that vast proliferation

811
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:09,080
Speaker 1: of of prion protein resulting in your ownal death? That

812
00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:13,560
Speaker 1: animal cannot survive, So it's impossible. So in the average

813
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 1: it's probably about a two year disease. But I want

814
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:18,960
Speaker 1: to go back if we can to. We talked about

815
00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:21,719
Speaker 1: CWD hasn't always been there, Yeah, because I want to

816
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:24,440
Speaker 1: lay out people like why I'm asking about that is

817
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:29,360
Speaker 1: when and and Doug, you follow this a lot. You

818
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:32,040
Speaker 1: can speak up if this doesn't jibe, but so you're

819
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:35,600
Speaker 1: you're understanding of Hunter's understanding of this. When people when

820
00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:37,479
Speaker 1: you get c w D in a hurt a dear

821
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:41,360
Speaker 1: herd out um, there's a lot of talk all of

822
00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:45,480
Speaker 1: a sudden about trying to go in and radically coal

823
00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:50,239
Speaker 1: the hurt, to lower numbers, or to do eradications in

824
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:53,840
Speaker 1: certain areas, to try to contain the disease, or to

825
00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:56,440
Speaker 1: knock the numbers back so hard that it won't effectively

826
00:52:56,480 --> 00:52:59,239
Speaker 1: pass some animal to animal. And this pisses a lot

827
00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:02,839
Speaker 1: of guys off, because, as you know, anyone who likes

828
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:05,920
Speaker 1: to hunt knows you want as many animals around as possible.

829
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:09,480
Speaker 1: And so when people start hearing this chatter, they get

830
00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:12,279
Speaker 1: uneasy feeling about it. They don't like where this is going.

831
00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:16,800
Speaker 1: And I feel that it's a guy that feels that

832
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:20,640
Speaker 1: way who's likely to be the same guy who says

833
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:26,960
Speaker 1: it's always been here? Is that fair? Dog? I don't

834
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:31,600
Speaker 1: you've logged more hours thinking about this night. I don't

835
00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:36,400
Speaker 1: know if more. I'm right up there with you. Yeah. No,

836
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:37,960
Speaker 1: But I'm not trying to do the science. I'm just

837
00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:40,360
Speaker 1: trying to do the psychology of like the kind of

838
00:53:40,440 --> 00:53:43,520
Speaker 1: guy who's who likes the idea that it's always been here. Well,

839
00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:46,279
Speaker 1: I think that they're they're more likely to say, well,

840
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:49,799
Speaker 1: we can't do anything about it anyway. Yeah, that ends

841
00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:52,759
Speaker 1: up being the attitude that I get as much as anything. Well,

842
00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:54,920
Speaker 1: you know, it's too late, we're not going to eradicated

843
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:57,600
Speaker 1: all the like when they had the eradication effort or

844
00:53:58,080 --> 00:54:00,480
Speaker 1: that was, you know, we had the eradication zone, really

845
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:03,440
Speaker 1: upset people because well, how are we gonna be able

846
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:05,319
Speaker 1: to do that? We're gonna kill all the deer became

847
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:11,760
Speaker 1: a national news story. Yeah, UM, that was not supported socially,

848
00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:18,200
Speaker 1: was not supported. And so the same thing happened in Alberta.

849
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:21,040
Speaker 1: UM when c w D it looked like was was

850
00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:25,920
Speaker 1: starting to march from Saskatchewan towards Alberta. UM. Alberta wanted

851
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:29,480
Speaker 1: to I wanted to stop it. And they were doing

852
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:32,480
Speaker 1: everything they can could at that point in time. So

853
00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:35,719
Speaker 1: they were calling large numbers of animals, UM trying to

854
00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:39,000
Speaker 1: keep CWD you know, on the Saskatchewan side or drive

855
00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:43,719
Speaker 1: it back to the Saskatchewan side. They even UM went

856
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:46,840
Speaker 1: to a point where they used kind of an unconventional

857
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:49,960
Speaker 1: method to kill deer. They were doing it from an

858
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:52,200
Speaker 1: aerial platform. And it wasn't a tree stand, it was

859
00:54:52,239 --> 00:54:55,960
Speaker 1: a helicopter. And so if you want to be effective

860
00:54:56,000 --> 00:54:58,880
Speaker 1: at dropping at knocking down deer numbers, same as you know,

861
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:01,359
Speaker 1: if you were trying to kill Farrell Hoggs or something

862
00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:03,840
Speaker 1: like that, do it from a helicopter. You can you

863
00:55:03,920 --> 00:55:05,759
Speaker 1: can really take down a lot of deer in the

864
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:08,560
Speaker 1: course of a day or a week. Well, that was

865
00:55:09,080 --> 00:55:11,239
Speaker 1: it looked like they were being quite effective. They were

866
00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:14,640
Speaker 1: being very effective at dropping deer numbers and it looked

867
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:18,120
Speaker 1: like they had a chance. Well that that technique was

868
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:22,320
Speaker 1: not supported. The outfitters and the hunters in that area

869
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:27,960
Speaker 1: were offended, um that the ministry in Alberta was taking

870
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:31,200
Speaker 1: that many deer for something that they didn't consider to

871
00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:33,960
Speaker 1: be that big of a problem to start with. And

872
00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:38,279
Speaker 1: so that social pressure led to political pressure, led to

873
00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:45,719
Speaker 1: the program being basically defunded, and so Alberta stopped doing

874
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:48,320
Speaker 1: that aggressive management to c w D. And if you

875
00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:51,080
Speaker 1: take a look at the at the at the map

876
00:55:51,239 --> 00:55:53,320
Speaker 1: that you know I put together of the of the

877
00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:56,520
Speaker 1: you know, known distribution of c w D, or you

878
00:55:56,560 --> 00:55:59,719
Speaker 1: look at the Alberta ministry UM stuff, you'll see c

879
00:55:59,840 --> 00:56:03,719
Speaker 1: to be the marching westward and it's now established and

880
00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:06,680
Speaker 1: it's gonna be very challenging to to do anything with.

881
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:10,520
Speaker 1: There's another thing I've heard, uh from hunter's and that is,

882
00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:12,719
Speaker 1: well they've had it out in Colorado this whole time

883
00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:20,919
Speaker 1: and it's stabilized. No, I have no yeah, I stabilization

884
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:24,520
Speaker 1: of the population whatever were it's it's no big deal.

885
00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:28,040
Speaker 1: In other words, it hasn't hurt the deer population. That's

886
00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:31,640
Speaker 1: what I hear on a regular basis. UM and that

887
00:56:31,719 --> 00:56:34,800
Speaker 1: comes back to that that situation, you know, trying to

888
00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:38,960
Speaker 1: identify has it always been here in places where disease

889
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:43,200
Speaker 1: has been the longest. We have now documented population level

890
00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:49,000
Speaker 1: impacts in localized geographic areas where CWD is clearly impacting

891
00:56:49,719 --> 00:56:54,359
Speaker 1: numerically the deer herd. We've seen cases now documented peer

892
00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:59,480
Speaker 1: viewed literature period science in mule deer in Colorado. We've

893
00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:03,040
Speaker 1: seen um white tailed deer in uh in an area

894
00:57:03,080 --> 00:57:07,520
Speaker 1: in the South Converse County in Wyoming, and documented in

895
00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:11,480
Speaker 1: North American elk in Rocky Mountain National Park in Colorado.

896
00:57:12,920 --> 00:57:17,560
Speaker 1: So if this disease had been here always, we know

897
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:20,080
Speaker 1: that c w D does two things really well. It

898
00:57:20,240 --> 00:57:23,800
Speaker 1: spreads geographically and it grows in prevalence. When the prevalence

899
00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:28,720
Speaker 1: gets high enough, there's every likelihood that it will impact populations.

900
00:57:29,480 --> 00:57:34,040
Speaker 1: Is there any evidence anywhere that this has occurred historically?

901
00:57:34,760 --> 00:57:37,680
Speaker 1: There's none. There is no evidence that a t SC

902
00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:41,280
Speaker 1: has been out there and has caused local or regional

903
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:46,280
Speaker 1: population declines historically. And an interesting thing about c w D,

904
00:57:46,520 --> 00:57:54,840
Speaker 1: but I mean, we'd only have if we're lucky. You

905
00:57:54,920 --> 00:57:56,800
Speaker 1: know what, what we got a hundred years to draw on.

906
00:57:59,240 --> 00:58:00,840
Speaker 1: I mean that stuff have been going on. You know,

907
00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:03,240
Speaker 1: you have no idea, but over the last let's say,

908
00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:05,280
Speaker 1: say like over the last hundred years, he might have

909
00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:08,120
Speaker 1: been able to measure something like that or realize something

910
00:58:08,200 --> 00:58:13,160
Speaker 1: that was occurring. Okay, but what will stop cw D.

911
00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:18,040
Speaker 1: To date, we know of no biological feature which will

912
00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:20,680
Speaker 1: stop it. So if it had been there two hundred,

913
00:58:20,720 --> 00:58:23,920
Speaker 1: three hundred, five hundred years ago, there wouldn't be one

914
00:58:23,960 --> 00:58:26,920
Speaker 1: little pocket. Yeah. Why, you know, we've seen, you know,

915
00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:30,840
Speaker 1: we've seen small pockets of disease grow into larger pockets

916
00:58:30,920 --> 00:58:33,160
Speaker 1: of disease, and none of those pockets has vanished. No,

917
00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:36,040
Speaker 1: it's never like any area that's had it has never

918
00:58:36,120 --> 00:58:38,840
Speaker 1: gotten rid of it. C w D, as far as

919
00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:42,280
Speaker 1: I'm aware, has not gone away anywhere other than potentially

920
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:46,120
Speaker 1: in a captive facility where we depopulate that facility. So

921
00:58:46,280 --> 00:58:50,800
Speaker 1: there's no you know, their populations don't seem to adapt um.

922
00:58:51,720 --> 00:58:55,280
Speaker 1: There does not seem to be any strong genetic selection

923
00:58:55,600 --> 00:58:59,960
Speaker 1: for resistance to disease. Now, there are genotypes in each

924
00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:02,720
Speaker 1: of the three main species white tailed deer, mule deer,

925
00:59:02,840 --> 00:59:07,960
Speaker 1: and elk that seemed to have some level of quote

926
00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:13,160
Speaker 1: unquote resistance that resistance, they seem a little less likely

927
00:59:13,320 --> 00:59:15,880
Speaker 1: to get c w D, but they can get c

928
00:59:16,200 --> 00:59:19,360
Speaker 1: w D, and what it does is manifest through a

929
00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:23,640
Speaker 1: longer incubation period. So when I said your garden variety, dear,

930
00:59:24,120 --> 00:59:27,360
Speaker 1: it's about a two year disease in these in these

931
00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:30,480
Speaker 1: resistant geno types, it seems like it's maybe a five

932
00:59:30,640 --> 00:59:33,360
Speaker 1: year disease. So that gives them enough time to that

933
00:59:33,440 --> 00:59:35,680
Speaker 1: gives many of them enough time to have the life

934
00:59:35,720 --> 00:59:39,080
Speaker 1: they would have had to end, like they would have

935
00:59:39,160 --> 00:59:41,560
Speaker 1: had reproduced and then die from the ship that kills

936
00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:45,000
Speaker 1: year without them ever knowing that they had it. Like

937
00:59:45,080 --> 00:59:46,560
Speaker 1: if you told me I had a disease it's going

938
00:59:46,600 --> 00:59:49,000
Speaker 1: to be fatal in one years, I'd be like, yes,

939
00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:52,760
Speaker 1: that's cool, get in line, right, there's the plenty of

940
00:59:52,800 --> 00:59:54,880
Speaker 1: stars gonna kill me between now and then. Okay, But

941
00:59:55,640 --> 00:59:58,640
Speaker 1: let's think about if that disease you have, if they

942
00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:02,040
Speaker 1: over the course of that hun years eighty years of

943
01:00:02,200 --> 01:00:05,720
Speaker 1: that you're able to actively give that disease to other people.

944
01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:13,080
Speaker 1: And so that's kind of the difference. So that dear Dearing,

945
01:00:13,680 --> 01:00:17,040
Speaker 1: the garden variety deer with c w D, where I

946
01:00:17,080 --> 01:00:20,640
Speaker 1: said that clinical, you know, it's it's it's inapparent in

947
01:00:20,720 --> 01:00:24,920
Speaker 1: the animal, at least to us for maybe twenty twenty

948
01:00:24,960 --> 01:00:27,960
Speaker 1: two months, and then it's sick and it's and it dies.

949
01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:32,960
Speaker 1: That animal is shedding infectious agents, so it's infectious. It's

950
01:00:33,040 --> 01:00:37,720
Speaker 1: capable of transmitting disease, probably as early as three months

951
01:00:37,920 --> 01:00:42,440
Speaker 1: after it gets disease. So for the majority of the

952
01:00:42,560 --> 01:00:45,600
Speaker 1: time frame that animal has c w D, it's able

953
01:00:45,680 --> 01:00:48,960
Speaker 1: to give that disease to others and to shed infectious

954
01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:52,320
Speaker 1: agent out into the environment where it may persist for years,

955
01:00:52,560 --> 01:00:58,360
Speaker 1: potentially up to decades. Now that that resistant genotype, he's

956
01:00:58,400 --> 01:01:01,400
Speaker 1: got a five year version CWD instead of a two

957
01:01:01,520 --> 01:01:05,360
Speaker 1: year so that deer might be shedding infectious agent for

958
01:01:05,520 --> 01:01:08,959
Speaker 1: maybe four years or even longer before it gets sick

959
01:01:09,040 --> 01:01:11,400
Speaker 1: and dies. So although it's good for him, it's bad

960
01:01:11,480 --> 01:01:14,280
Speaker 1: for everybody else. It's good for him or her, and

961
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:17,520
Speaker 1: it might be good for their progeny if they you know,

962
01:01:17,680 --> 01:01:20,440
Speaker 1: if that if that trait breeds, true, it might be

963
01:01:20,560 --> 01:01:23,000
Speaker 1: good for their progeny, but it could be bad for

964
01:01:23,040 --> 01:01:26,760
Speaker 1: everybody else. And we call that a typhoid Marry syndrome. Okay,

965
01:01:26,840 --> 01:01:29,760
Speaker 1: it's not dying from it, but it's spread and sings

966
01:01:29,800 --> 01:01:32,040
Speaker 1: that are probably gonna die from it quicker than he would.

967
01:01:32,400 --> 01:01:36,800
Speaker 1: Right now, there's another interesting thing. These gena types that

968
01:01:36,960 --> 01:01:42,080
Speaker 1: are supposedly resistant to c w D are incredibly rare

969
01:01:42,640 --> 01:01:46,400
Speaker 1: out in a wild population. They might be five percent

970
01:01:46,480 --> 01:01:49,840
Speaker 1: of the animals or even less. Okay, So if this

971
01:01:50,080 --> 01:01:55,080
Speaker 1: was a desirable trait, geno typic trait, one would expect that,

972
01:01:55,440 --> 01:01:59,919
Speaker 1: at a minimum, it be in a larger proportion. Always

973
01:02:00,520 --> 01:02:03,080
Speaker 1: if yeah, if that, if that gene had had an

974
01:02:03,120 --> 01:02:07,160
Speaker 1: opportunity to proliferate in response to disease, they ought to

975
01:02:07,200 --> 01:02:11,040
Speaker 1: be the dominant genotypes out there. But they're not. They're very,

976
01:02:11,200 --> 01:02:15,200
Speaker 1: very rare. So it's interesting because you know, some folks

977
01:02:15,240 --> 01:02:18,120
Speaker 1: in the captive servit industry have proposed, Hey, why don't

978
01:02:18,160 --> 01:02:22,760
Speaker 1: we start breeding these resistant genotypes and and infiltrate the

979
01:02:22,840 --> 01:02:27,520
Speaker 1: populations with them. So we'll replace the susceptible animals with

980
01:02:27,680 --> 01:02:32,560
Speaker 1: the resistant animals and everything will be just hunky dorry. Right. So,

981
01:02:32,880 --> 01:02:36,280
Speaker 1: the observations of these animals well, Number one, if if,

982
01:02:36,520 --> 01:02:40,400
Speaker 1: if that genotype is really rare, it suggests that that

983
01:02:40,560 --> 01:02:44,000
Speaker 1: animal may not be fit, may not be a genetically

984
01:02:44,120 --> 01:02:49,240
Speaker 1: fit animal. In other characteristics, that geno that CWD resistance

985
01:02:49,320 --> 01:02:52,160
Speaker 1: may be tied to other characteristics that are that may

986
01:02:52,200 --> 01:02:55,360
Speaker 1: be deleterious to animals. Okay, there's got to be an

987
01:02:55,400 --> 01:02:59,720
Speaker 1: explanation for why that genotype is really rare. And researchers

988
01:02:59,760 --> 01:03:03,360
Speaker 1: and Alorado were able to to actually breed up some

989
01:03:03,760 --> 01:03:07,680
Speaker 1: of the mule deer with the resistant genotypes, and their

990
01:03:07,760 --> 01:03:12,400
Speaker 1: conclusions were that while these deer uh looked like mule deer,

991
01:03:13,400 --> 01:03:18,400
Speaker 1: acted largely like mule deer, they're highly technically, they weren't

992
01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:24,240
Speaker 1: quite right. These animals just didn't behave the way that

993
01:03:24,600 --> 01:03:28,360
Speaker 1: there their wild type brethren are. So now let's put

994
01:03:28,480 --> 01:03:31,640
Speaker 1: that animal in a wild system where you've got things

995
01:03:31,720 --> 01:03:38,000
Speaker 1: like you've got giant antlers. Where put put that animal

996
01:03:38,160 --> 01:03:42,440
Speaker 1: who is just not quite right behaviorally into a system

997
01:03:42,520 --> 01:03:47,920
Speaker 1: with predators over historical time, and maybe there you can

998
01:03:47,960 --> 01:03:52,200
Speaker 1: see why that animal was selected against that that TSC

999
01:03:52,480 --> 01:03:57,800
Speaker 1: resistance may be tied to other phenotypic characteristics which are

1000
01:03:57,960 --> 01:04:00,640
Speaker 1: less than desirable for an animal who has to be

1001
01:04:01,080 --> 01:04:03,680
Speaker 1: you know, has to be a hundred percent of ten

1002
01:04:03,720 --> 01:04:07,960
Speaker 1: percent of a deer in order to survive. So it all,

1003
01:04:08,120 --> 01:04:11,000
Speaker 1: you know, kind of boiled together that that resistance quote

1004
01:04:11,080 --> 01:04:16,680
Speaker 1: unquote resistance. Um, it might not be the panacea that

1005
01:04:16,840 --> 01:04:21,480
Speaker 1: we're that we're hoping for the cure of for well,

1006
01:04:21,520 --> 01:04:25,600
Speaker 1: there won't be a cure. We haven't found one yet.

1007
01:04:25,920 --> 01:04:29,000
Speaker 1: But what would it even look like. Well, researchers are

1008
01:04:29,120 --> 01:04:33,160
Speaker 1: working on vaccines. Okay, yeah, yeah, but I mean, but

1009
01:04:33,680 --> 01:04:38,120
Speaker 1: I are you gonna go vaccinate all the year and

1010
01:04:38,160 --> 01:04:42,560
Speaker 1: then keep doing it? Well, that's that's one thought. Now.

1011
01:04:42,960 --> 01:04:47,120
Speaker 1: Vaccine people have worked on vaccines, communic vaccines. Has there

1012
01:04:47,160 --> 01:04:50,720
Speaker 1: ever been a communicable vaccine a communical oh, where you

1013
01:04:50,720 --> 01:04:55,800
Speaker 1: would put it in put it in as the vaccination

1014
01:04:55,920 --> 01:04:57,800
Speaker 1: just by letting me sleep on its couch. That's an

1015
01:04:57,840 --> 01:05:01,400
Speaker 1: interesting theory. That's an interesting theory. I'm not aware of

1016
01:05:01,520 --> 01:05:05,200
Speaker 1: any that has been effective that way. Yeah, there you go.

1017
01:05:06,520 --> 01:05:09,240
Speaker 1: It might be on it. You might be on it. Um.

1018
01:05:09,480 --> 01:05:12,480
Speaker 1: There have been a number of vaccine candidates, uh for

1019
01:05:12,800 --> 01:05:15,000
Speaker 1: t sc s. In general, it would be great to

1020
01:05:15,080 --> 01:05:21,680
Speaker 1: be able to vaccinate cattle, sheep, humans for TSC we

1021
01:05:21,760 --> 01:05:25,880
Speaker 1: have not. Scientists has not been able to administer. If

1022
01:05:25,920 --> 01:05:29,400
Speaker 1: you had the miracle of the vaccine administering it to cattle,

1023
01:05:29,440 --> 01:05:34,760
Speaker 1: administering to sheep, administring to humans, it's plausible and and

1024
01:05:34,880 --> 01:05:38,760
Speaker 1: certainly it's not out of question that it could be

1025
01:05:38,920 --> 01:05:42,760
Speaker 1: done with free ranching animals as well. Some vaccines can

1026
01:05:42,920 --> 01:05:47,560
Speaker 1: be built into oral based formulations where we could put

1027
01:05:47,680 --> 01:05:51,040
Speaker 1: it into something that deer would eat, spread it, you know,

1028
01:05:51,240 --> 01:05:55,840
Speaker 1: probably from helicopters or or airplanes across the landscape and

1029
01:05:56,040 --> 01:06:00,360
Speaker 1: vaccinate animals to prevent them from getting CWD. But you'd

1030
01:06:00,360 --> 01:06:02,520
Speaker 1: have to do it over vast geographic carry, and you'd

1031
01:06:02,560 --> 01:06:04,960
Speaker 1: have to do it for a really long time decades

1032
01:06:06,160 --> 01:06:11,200
Speaker 1: vacine for vaccine. But there are instances where with other

1033
01:06:11,280 --> 01:06:16,280
Speaker 1: diseases where that's been effective. UM with rabies, with raccoon rabies,

1034
01:06:16,360 --> 01:06:19,959
Speaker 1: there's an oral bait um that has been created looks

1035
01:06:20,000 --> 01:06:26,040
Speaker 1: like little dog biscuits. UM. Raccoon rabies historically was isolated

1036
01:06:26,080 --> 01:06:30,080
Speaker 1: to the southeastern States, and it was moved up in

1037
01:06:30,360 --> 01:06:34,080
Speaker 1: a little bit further north along the eastern seaboard UM

1038
01:06:34,240 --> 01:06:39,120
Speaker 1: either by UM, by conservationists themselves, or by state agencies

1039
01:06:39,320 --> 01:06:44,720
Speaker 1: who were relocating raccoons to UM supplant you know, populations

1040
01:06:44,760 --> 01:06:48,840
Speaker 1: that have been reduced by over harvest inadvertently. That's something

1041
01:06:48,880 --> 01:06:52,000
Speaker 1: that's happened absolutely. People have had people have had to

1042
01:06:52,040 --> 01:06:56,480
Speaker 1: do raccoon reintroductions. Yeah, historically, I mean, game agencies have

1043
01:06:56,720 --> 01:07:01,160
Speaker 1: have restored darn near everything over time. Yeah, I thought

1044
01:07:01,400 --> 01:07:04,840
Speaker 1: raccoons were an exception there, just because they've enjoyed a

1045
01:07:05,080 --> 01:07:08,080
Speaker 1: general like in the time that we've been keeping track

1046
01:07:08,160 --> 01:07:12,000
Speaker 1: of such things, they've enjoyed a general northward and westward spread.

1047
01:07:13,680 --> 01:07:16,960
Speaker 1: Humans have helped a little bit, yea. They were like,

1048
01:07:17,160 --> 01:07:20,360
Speaker 1: why are there fox squirrels in Missool, Monta And and

1049
01:07:20,560 --> 01:07:24,520
Speaker 1: so inadvertently raccoon and rabies was moved from the farther

1050
01:07:24,680 --> 01:07:29,480
Speaker 1: in the southeast up into up into the Virginia's And so,

1051
01:07:29,760 --> 01:07:32,560
Speaker 1: as a good pathogen does, it will try and take

1052
01:07:32,600 --> 01:07:37,640
Speaker 1: advantage of a naive, susceptible host population, and raccoon rabies

1053
01:07:37,640 --> 01:07:40,880
Speaker 1: has moved straight up the eastern seaboard where now you

1054
01:07:40,960 --> 01:07:43,760
Speaker 1: know it's it's not uncommon to find cases in places

1055
01:07:43,840 --> 01:07:46,680
Speaker 1: like Central Park in New York, Okay. And and the

1056
01:07:46,760 --> 01:07:49,960
Speaker 1: fear with that is it's a it's a zooonosis, where

1057
01:07:51,200 --> 01:07:55,160
Speaker 1: that a disease that transmits between animals and humans and

1058
01:07:55,320 --> 01:07:59,160
Speaker 1: sometimes back. By definition, that's what a zoonosis is, and

1059
01:07:59,320 --> 01:08:01,800
Speaker 1: it's a face in rabies is a fatal disease in

1060
01:08:01,920 --> 01:08:07,040
Speaker 1: human to the raccoon, to other all mammalian hosts. So

1061
01:08:07,440 --> 01:08:11,440
Speaker 1: now raccoon rabies seems to it wants to move westward

1062
01:08:11,520 --> 01:08:15,440
Speaker 1: as well. And so there is a very massive program

1063
01:08:15,520 --> 01:08:18,639
Speaker 1: that's been ongoing for quite some time where every year,

1064
01:08:19,240 --> 01:08:23,560
Speaker 1: these vaccine laden baits are dropped from aircraft across a

1065
01:08:23,720 --> 01:08:26,760
Speaker 1: swath all the way from I believe it's a long

1066
01:08:26,880 --> 01:08:30,920
Speaker 1: lake erie down along the Appalachians down to the Southern

1067
01:08:31,040 --> 01:08:34,479
Speaker 1: States right now. It goes on every year, and so

1068
01:08:34,960 --> 01:08:42,240
Speaker 1: these these baits are dropped across. It's it's neat stuff,

1069
01:08:42,439 --> 01:08:45,880
Speaker 1: but it works. So you're trying to create a vaccinated

1070
01:08:46,000 --> 01:08:50,160
Speaker 1: path where the raccoons and other animals have been vaccinated

1071
01:08:50,200 --> 01:08:54,880
Speaker 1: against rabies, so even if they are exposed to the

1072
01:08:55,000 --> 01:08:58,880
Speaker 1: rabies virus, they are not no longer susceptible to it.

1073
01:08:59,479 --> 01:09:07,760
Speaker 1: A serious that's fascinating, absolutely, and it's and it's one

1074
01:09:07,800 --> 01:09:10,760
Speaker 1: of those instances said like you come back and say,

1075
01:09:11,120 --> 01:09:14,639
Speaker 1: is it possible that c w D could be managed

1076
01:09:14,720 --> 01:09:19,760
Speaker 1: sometime in the future, by you're making me feel like

1077
01:09:20,120 --> 01:09:22,800
Speaker 1: it's even the vaccine doesn't exist and it might be

1078
01:09:23,800 --> 01:09:27,479
Speaker 1: possible there decades or whatever. I'm feeling it. I'm feeling

1079
01:09:27,520 --> 01:09:30,960
Speaker 1: it on the idea that you could in fact maybe

1080
01:09:31,240 --> 01:09:33,840
Speaker 1: so then it would be expensive. So then as a

1081
01:09:33,920 --> 01:09:36,600
Speaker 1: hunter in an area whereas we were talking earlier that

1082
01:09:36,760 --> 01:09:42,080
Speaker 1: it's moving up through, I'm feeling and a landowner and feeling, uh,

1083
01:09:43,040 --> 01:09:46,280
Speaker 1: I feel like an obligation to do what I can

1084
01:09:46,840 --> 01:09:49,960
Speaker 1: and and if I can spread the word of let's

1085
01:09:50,000 --> 01:09:52,400
Speaker 1: at least we're not gonna we're not gonna get rid

1086
01:09:52,439 --> 01:09:54,000
Speaker 1: of it. How the hunter says, oh, we're not gonna

1087
01:09:54,000 --> 01:09:55,960
Speaker 1: get rid of it. If they've had it, its stabilizes

1088
01:09:55,960 --> 01:09:58,720
Speaker 1: all that. I mean, I feel like it's our obligation

1089
01:09:58,800 --> 01:10:01,519
Speaker 1: to slow it down. So to give that to buy

1090
01:10:01,600 --> 01:10:08,360
Speaker 1: that time, that's that's a great point in that. Okay, sorry,

1091
01:10:12,360 --> 01:10:15,200
Speaker 1: let me give you another quick example of vaccine that works.

1092
01:10:15,960 --> 01:10:18,320
Speaker 1: This one is is pretty interesting. This is one that's

1093
01:10:18,320 --> 01:10:21,760
Speaker 1: been developed at the National Wildlife Health Center. So it

1094
01:10:22,040 --> 01:10:27,320
Speaker 1: was thought, um that black footed ferrets were um extinct.

1095
01:10:27,640 --> 01:10:32,920
Speaker 1: They popped up in a guy's dog carried one up

1096
01:10:32,960 --> 01:10:35,639
Speaker 1: to the door. Yeh. Basically turns out they're not extinct.

1097
01:10:35,680 --> 01:10:39,440
Speaker 1: They're not extinct. So they brought that population into captivity

1098
01:10:39,520 --> 01:10:42,200
Speaker 1: and bred it up. Okay, and then they put these

1099
01:10:42,280 --> 01:10:46,120
Speaker 1: animals back out on the landscape. And now, if you

1100
01:10:46,400 --> 01:10:49,880
Speaker 1: are a black footed ferret, you pretty much eat one thing,

1101
01:10:51,120 --> 01:10:55,000
Speaker 1: prairie dogs. That's what you eat, all right. And so

1102
01:10:55,240 --> 01:10:57,680
Speaker 1: if we put black footed ferrets back out on the

1103
01:10:57,760 --> 01:11:00,680
Speaker 1: landscape and and on fishing, wild Life Service in the

1104
01:11:00,720 --> 01:11:03,800
Speaker 1: state natural resource agencies have done just that along some

1105
01:11:03,960 --> 01:11:08,360
Speaker 1: of the tribes as well. Now, what happens if plague

1106
01:11:09,560 --> 01:11:15,320
Speaker 1: comes into that population and wipes out of the prairie

1107
01:11:15,400 --> 01:11:19,200
Speaker 1: dog colony where you live. Well, either A you're gonna

1108
01:11:19,240 --> 01:11:23,439
Speaker 1: starve to death or be you're gonna die of plague yourself, right, Okay.

1109
01:11:23,560 --> 01:11:26,559
Speaker 1: So this is a limiting factor when we talk about

1110
01:11:26,840 --> 01:11:31,920
Speaker 1: the reintroducing the most endangered mammal in North America, putting

1111
01:11:31,960 --> 01:11:35,519
Speaker 1: it back on the landscape. If your food source dies

1112
01:11:35,600 --> 01:11:43,559
Speaker 1: of plague, you die too, Okay. So, researchers at National

1113
01:11:43,560 --> 01:11:46,799
Speaker 1: Wildlife Health Center, in conjunction with lots of other places,

1114
01:11:47,520 --> 01:11:51,280
Speaker 1: over the course of about a decade, developed a vaccine

1115
01:11:51,920 --> 01:11:56,519
Speaker 1: which works. It works in both prairie dogs and it

1116
01:11:56,680 --> 01:11:59,960
Speaker 1: works in blackfooted ferrets. I know a lot of ranchers

1117
01:12:00,000 --> 01:12:02,080
Speaker 1: who are gonna be disappointed to hear about that. Yeah,

1118
01:12:02,160 --> 01:12:05,479
Speaker 1: they could be. But if we're talking about endangered species

1119
01:12:06,080 --> 01:12:11,840
Speaker 1: reintroductions more making a joke about a certain mentality. There

1120
01:12:11,960 --> 01:12:15,360
Speaker 1: is that mentality. So anyway, now the researchers they were

1121
01:12:15,520 --> 01:12:20,080
Speaker 1: able to give an intramuscular injection of the vaccine into

1122
01:12:20,800 --> 01:12:25,280
Speaker 1: into the ferrets and protect them. But now, how do

1123
01:12:25,360 --> 01:12:27,880
Speaker 1: you go out and you capture all the prairie dogs

1124
01:12:27,880 --> 01:12:30,000
Speaker 1: and give them each a shot. It's analogous to what

1125
01:12:30,080 --> 01:12:32,320
Speaker 1: you're saying with deer with c w D. It just

1126
01:12:32,560 --> 01:12:36,800
Speaker 1: can't be done logistically. So the researchers were able to

1127
01:12:36,960 --> 01:12:42,480
Speaker 1: create an oral bait, and actually they tried different flavors

1128
01:12:42,600 --> 01:12:46,040
Speaker 1: to find out which the prairie dogs preferred. It turns out,

1129
01:12:46,160 --> 01:12:50,000
Speaker 1: guess what they like, peanut butter. So they created little

1130
01:12:50,080 --> 01:12:55,519
Speaker 1: bits vaccine latent baits, maybe a centimeter on on on edge,

1131
01:12:56,000 --> 01:12:58,680
Speaker 1: cubic little bits. And so it turns out we can

1132
01:12:58,760 --> 01:13:01,599
Speaker 1: put these out on the land escape in prairie dog towns.

1133
01:13:01,960 --> 01:13:07,520
Speaker 1: The prey dogs consume them, and they vaccinate themselves thereby,

1134
01:13:07,880 --> 01:13:12,720
Speaker 1: you know, at the population level, making them uh now

1135
01:13:13,000 --> 01:13:17,360
Speaker 1: no longer susceptible to play. And those efforts are probably

1136
01:13:17,479 --> 01:13:19,800
Speaker 1: focused in areas where you're trying to recover, you're trying

1137
01:13:19,840 --> 01:13:24,800
Speaker 1: to receive restore the black footed ferrets. You know, a

1138
01:13:24,840 --> 01:13:29,920
Speaker 1: little tidbet for people listeners. Um the most, I would

1139
01:13:30,000 --> 01:13:35,479
Speaker 1: the most universal attractant. It doesn't matter what you're trying

1140
01:13:35,520 --> 01:13:39,160
Speaker 1: to catch. Peanut butter molasses mixed together. Catch me on

1141
01:13:39,280 --> 01:13:41,439
Speaker 1: that stuff. I think, I really think it's the most.

1142
01:13:41,640 --> 01:13:46,200
Speaker 1: I think beaver castor is regarded as like a seemly

1143
01:13:46,240 --> 01:13:49,160
Speaker 1: almost universal attractant to anything that likes to eat meat.

1144
01:13:50,680 --> 01:13:56,120
Speaker 1: And two carnivores beaver castor and two herbivores, peanut butter

1145
01:13:56,240 --> 01:13:59,519
Speaker 1: molasses mixed together is like a universal attracting. Absolutely. I

1146
01:13:59,600 --> 01:14:03,240
Speaker 1: did a lot a small mammal trapping, you know, many

1147
01:14:03,320 --> 01:14:06,680
Speaker 1: many years ago, and you put peanut butter inside of

1148
01:14:06,680 --> 01:14:09,720
Speaker 1: a little you know, sherman live trap, and you end

1149
01:14:09,800 --> 01:14:11,600
Speaker 1: up with a mouse or a ole in there that

1150
01:14:11,920 --> 01:14:13,800
Speaker 1: they roll around in the peanut butter, and then you've

1151
01:14:13,800 --> 01:14:16,280
Speaker 1: got to deal with this grease covered animal. You mix

1152
01:14:16,320 --> 01:14:19,000
Speaker 1: the peanut butter with rolled oats, so that's the that's

1153
01:14:19,040 --> 01:14:23,400
Speaker 1: the component that you didn't have classes and and and oatmeal.

1154
01:14:23,520 --> 01:14:26,880
Speaker 1: Peanut's got stay in power and the rolled holts. Yeah,

1155
01:14:26,880 --> 01:14:28,920
Speaker 1: it probably gives them something to actually they can carry

1156
01:14:28,960 --> 01:14:31,800
Speaker 1: it off to you know, yeah, well, and and it

1157
01:14:31,880 --> 01:14:34,040
Speaker 1: absorbs some of the grease in the in the peanut

1158
01:14:34,080 --> 01:14:36,880
Speaker 1: butter Bailey come back to that, that prairie dog, in

1159
01:14:37,040 --> 01:14:40,800
Speaker 1: blackfooted ferrets. So there are very few success stories when

1160
01:14:40,880 --> 01:14:44,240
Speaker 1: dealing with wildlife disease in general. You know, if wildlife

1161
01:14:44,280 --> 01:14:49,000
Speaker 1: disease becomes established in a free ranging population, it's very

1162
01:14:49,120 --> 01:14:53,080
Speaker 1: pretty tough. Success stories are limited. But it's really interesting

1163
01:14:53,439 --> 01:14:56,880
Speaker 1: through the advent and the development of this vaccine and

1164
01:14:56,960 --> 01:15:00,680
Speaker 1: this oral vaccinated you know, bait being able to put

1165
01:15:00,800 --> 01:15:04,120
Speaker 1: that out there on the landscape, it's likely that we

1166
01:15:04,280 --> 01:15:10,639
Speaker 1: will be able to remove or largely remove plague as

1167
01:15:10,680 --> 01:15:14,840
Speaker 1: an issue with reintroduction and restoration of the most endangered

1168
01:15:14,880 --> 01:15:17,840
Speaker 1: mano in North America. So it's a success story, and

1169
01:15:17,880 --> 01:15:25,120
Speaker 1: it's one it's rare, it's when right. So I heard

1170
01:15:25,600 --> 01:15:32,439
Speaker 1: two different things. One was long sorry uh no. One

1171
01:15:32,680 --> 01:15:36,320
Speaker 1: was that with the raccoons, essentially there was a band

1172
01:15:36,640 --> 01:15:40,000
Speaker 1: that was established to stop the disease from going further.

1173
01:15:41,560 --> 01:15:43,280
Speaker 1: And I think how that could apply to c w

1174
01:15:43,400 --> 01:15:47,519
Speaker 1: d IF and when a vaccine is developed, so you

1175
01:15:47,600 --> 01:15:51,240
Speaker 1: can do that band a containment band. And then this

1176
01:15:52,120 --> 01:15:56,880
Speaker 1: with the blackfooted ferret is stopping it in a particular

1177
01:15:57,479 --> 01:16:00,360
Speaker 1: or yeah, stopping in in a particular area. So those

1178
01:16:00,400 --> 01:16:02,920
Speaker 1: are really two success stories, but there are two very

1179
01:16:02,960 --> 01:16:06,160
Speaker 1: different ones that are very very different. And it comes

1180
01:16:06,160 --> 01:16:08,599
Speaker 1: back to your point, does it make sense to try

1181
01:16:08,680 --> 01:16:13,600
Speaker 1: and minimize the impact and the geographic stretch where c

1182
01:16:13,880 --> 01:16:16,680
Speaker 1: w D is And I think you you hit the

1183
01:16:16,760 --> 01:16:18,880
Speaker 1: name one last thing before that. I want to go

1184
01:16:18,960 --> 01:16:21,200
Speaker 1: into that and end with that. No, I want to.

1185
01:16:21,320 --> 01:16:24,680
Speaker 1: I want to go into that full on, total move

1186
01:16:24,760 --> 01:16:29,919
Speaker 1: into it. But first this is it's gonna be impossible

1187
01:16:29,960 --> 01:16:34,240
Speaker 1: to answer. Um. No, you can answer the first part.

1188
01:16:34,240 --> 01:16:36,760
Speaker 1: I'll give you an easy to answer one. Do we

1189
01:16:36,920 --> 01:16:39,240
Speaker 1: know of a case where a dude has caught c

1190
01:16:39,600 --> 01:16:42,000
Speaker 1: w D from eating deer? Okay, So you wanna talk

1191
01:16:42,000 --> 01:16:44,920
Speaker 1: about human risk? I think it's appropriate. It's a it's

1192
01:16:44,920 --> 01:16:48,759
Speaker 1: a topic that everybody's interested in. I think most people

1193
01:16:48,920 --> 01:16:51,000
Speaker 1: that's kind of where they end up when they're thinking

1194
01:16:51,040 --> 01:16:55,200
Speaker 1: about that. I'm happy to discuss this, So todate there

1195
01:16:55,439 --> 01:17:01,439
Speaker 1: is no recognized instance where a human has contracted a

1196
01:17:01,560 --> 01:17:06,479
Speaker 1: t SC associated with consumption of of c w D

1197
01:17:06,600 --> 01:17:11,920
Speaker 1: afflicted deer. Okay, So from an epidemiological standpoint, it does

1198
01:17:12,000 --> 01:17:17,680
Speaker 1: not look like it has happened. Okay. Now, a tremendous

1199
01:17:17,800 --> 01:17:22,200
Speaker 1: amount of scientific research has been done, many different studies,

1200
01:17:22,320 --> 01:17:27,160
Speaker 1: many different ways, and the bottom line, if I had

1201
01:17:27,200 --> 01:17:30,479
Speaker 1: to boil down all of that research suggests that the

1202
01:17:30,720 --> 01:17:36,120
Speaker 1: chances of transmission of their CWD crossing the species barrier

1203
01:17:36,240 --> 01:17:41,800
Speaker 1: into humans is small. It's remote, but it is not zero.

1204
01:17:42,840 --> 01:17:46,759
Speaker 1: It was very remote in the case of BSc crossing

1205
01:17:46,840 --> 01:17:50,400
Speaker 1: over into humans, and to date we now know of

1206
01:17:50,520 --> 01:17:55,240
Speaker 1: over two hundred fatal cases of variant kreutz feldiacos disease

1207
01:17:55,320 --> 01:18:01,120
Speaker 1: in humans associated with consumption of BSc contaminated beef. Now,

1208
01:18:01,160 --> 01:18:05,080
Speaker 1: they entered, they put a lot of beef in that systems,

1209
01:18:05,600 --> 01:18:08,439
Speaker 1: Probably about at least three quarters of a million animals

1210
01:18:08,560 --> 01:18:12,639
Speaker 1: entered into the human food chain, resulting in approximately two

1211
01:18:13,200 --> 01:18:16,880
Speaker 1: cases known to date. So the conversion rate was very

1212
01:18:17,080 --> 01:18:23,000
Speaker 1: very small. Now, in for if we want to kind of,

1213
01:18:23,160 --> 01:18:26,439
Speaker 1: you know, generalize, if we said, in in experiments in

1214
01:18:26,760 --> 01:18:30,760
Speaker 1: test tube type environments, we can see c w D

1215
01:18:31,680 --> 01:18:36,920
Speaker 1: causing a conversion of human normal prion protein to the

1216
01:18:37,040 --> 01:18:42,519
Speaker 1: disease associated form at about the same rate as BSc does.

1217
01:18:43,320 --> 01:18:48,200
Speaker 1: It's reasonable to anticipate that it's not unreasonable to think

1218
01:18:48,280 --> 01:18:51,920
Speaker 1: that it could happen, said, the risk is very low.

1219
01:18:52,080 --> 01:18:56,639
Speaker 1: We can't quantify that risk exactly precisely. The risk is low,

1220
01:18:57,439 --> 01:19:00,560
Speaker 1: but it's not zero. Same thing can he said, with

1221
01:19:00,880 --> 01:19:06,320
Speaker 1: the chances for transmission into livestock. Okay, deer are out

1222
01:19:06,360 --> 01:19:09,000
Speaker 1: there commingling with cattle today, and if deer f c

1223
01:19:09,320 --> 01:19:15,240
Speaker 1: w D, that's happening not far from here, not not,

1224
01:19:15,439 --> 01:19:19,519
Speaker 1: it's not unfeasible. So there's interaction. Plus that the deer

1225
01:19:19,640 --> 01:19:22,719
Speaker 1: are shedding infectious agent into the environment and the cattle

1226
01:19:22,760 --> 01:19:27,320
Speaker 1: are are exposed to that, just like when humans are

1227
01:19:27,439 --> 01:19:31,679
Speaker 1: consuming venicine. If it's a CWD positive deer, those humans

1228
01:19:31,800 --> 01:19:38,080
Speaker 1: are exposed to the infectious agent. Exposure is not the

1229
01:19:38,160 --> 01:19:42,840
Speaker 1: same as transmission. I said, the chances are low, they

1230
01:19:42,880 --> 01:19:45,839
Speaker 1: are not zero. But now let's add to that equation

1231
01:19:45,960 --> 01:19:50,639
Speaker 1: just a little bit. In a state of Wisconsin alone,

1232
01:19:51,280 --> 01:19:55,040
Speaker 1: last year, there were four hundred, about four hundred and

1233
01:19:55,120 --> 01:20:00,919
Speaker 1: fifty positives detected. Probably the majority of them were consumed

1234
01:20:01,040 --> 01:20:04,840
Speaker 1: by the hunter that killed them. Okay, it seems that

1235
01:20:05,040 --> 01:20:06,760
Speaker 1: you know at least at least some of them that's

1236
01:20:06,800 --> 01:20:11,160
Speaker 1: positives detective, positives detective. So did you guys follow up

1237
01:20:11,200 --> 01:20:13,120
Speaker 1: with those hunters because I heard from a guy today

1238
01:20:13,600 --> 01:20:16,760
Speaker 1: who his family killed five four were positive and he

1239
01:20:16,880 --> 01:20:21,200
Speaker 1: was sketching out for me. Um, he's eating his His

1240
01:20:21,320 --> 01:20:24,000
Speaker 1: girlfriend's pissed at him. She won't eat it. They had

1241
01:20:24,000 --> 01:20:26,360
Speaker 1: a friend that wanted a deer. He want up declining

1242
01:20:26,439 --> 01:20:30,320
Speaker 1: the deer. This is right here in southwest Wisconsin. Do

1243
01:20:30,360 --> 01:20:32,160
Speaker 1: you guys follow up to be like, so, what happened

1244
01:20:32,160 --> 01:20:36,120
Speaker 1: to the deer? The DNR, Wisconsin Department and Natural Resources

1245
01:20:36,200 --> 01:20:41,599
Speaker 1: does follow up, and with every positive test, they provide

1246
01:20:41,640 --> 01:20:44,160
Speaker 1: information back to the hunter and provide them an option.

1247
01:20:44,240 --> 01:20:46,960
Speaker 1: They give them information and an option on what they

1248
01:20:47,040 --> 01:20:49,040
Speaker 1: want to do, and they obviously allow him to opt

1249
01:20:49,120 --> 01:20:52,400
Speaker 1: out of the Wanton waste laws. Right, Certainly, certainly they

1250
01:20:52,680 --> 01:20:54,320
Speaker 1: would they would come pick it up, or at least

1251
01:20:54,360 --> 01:20:58,679
Speaker 1: at one point they would actually come CWD positive material.

1252
01:20:58,760 --> 01:21:01,840
Speaker 1: Nobody's gonna go after you for that, but I would

1253
01:21:01,920 --> 01:21:04,639
Speaker 1: offer up that at least, you know, probably the majority

1254
01:21:04,680 --> 01:21:07,760
Speaker 1: of individuals now and I'm not I don't have their data,

1255
01:21:08,720 --> 01:21:13,000
Speaker 1: but I think the majority of individuals now would say, okay, thanks,

1256
01:21:13,360 --> 01:21:19,040
Speaker 1: but we've we've opted to consume it now, which but

1257
01:21:19,240 --> 01:21:22,600
Speaker 1: now let's think about it. The amount of surveillance that

1258
01:21:22,720 --> 01:21:25,120
Speaker 1: we do is much less than it used to be.

1259
01:21:26,600 --> 01:21:29,240
Speaker 1: First first few years in the southern part of the

1260
01:21:29,360 --> 01:21:32,920
Speaker 1: of Wisconsin. You know, the DNR was testing twenty thousand deer.

1261
01:21:33,640 --> 01:21:39,800
Speaker 1: This last year tested you know, around seven thousands. Uh.

1262
01:21:40,160 --> 01:21:42,439
Speaker 1: I really don't have the funding to do the to

1263
01:21:42,520 --> 01:21:49,479
Speaker 1: do the surveillance. Yeah, So it's not that hard to

1264
01:21:49,760 --> 01:21:53,560
Speaker 1: do some back of the envelope calculations. If we know

1265
01:21:54,200 --> 01:21:57,600
Speaker 1: what prevalence generally looks like. If we know what what

1266
01:21:57,720 --> 01:22:01,160
Speaker 1: prevalence generally looks like in a county, we know what

1267
01:22:01,400 --> 01:22:05,120
Speaker 1: harvest looks like in a county, So we can kind

1268
01:22:05,120 --> 01:22:08,240
Speaker 1: of figure out crude back of the envelope and identify

1269
01:22:08,720 --> 01:22:13,519
Speaker 1: maybe how many CBD positive deer were killed by hunters.

1270
01:22:14,240 --> 01:22:16,479
Speaker 1: I can come up pretty easily with you know, a

1271
01:22:16,560 --> 01:22:19,800
Speaker 1: couple of thousand CWD positive animals killed in the state

1272
01:22:19,840 --> 01:22:23,519
Speaker 1: of Wisconsin every year. Now, if only four hundred of

1273
01:22:23,600 --> 01:22:27,960
Speaker 1: them were tested positive, that means that for every test

1274
01:22:28,040 --> 01:22:32,040
Speaker 1: positive animal, there were probably three or ish three ish

1275
01:22:32,800 --> 01:22:36,160
Speaker 1: that we're not tested at all. So all of those

1276
01:22:36,320 --> 01:22:39,120
Speaker 1: you would think are going home being consumed by the

1277
01:22:39,200 --> 01:22:43,000
Speaker 1: hunters and their families. So when I talked about the risk,

1278
01:22:43,400 --> 01:22:47,559
Speaker 1: so the the amount of exposure doesn't change the risk

1279
01:22:47,760 --> 01:22:50,680
Speaker 1: to any one of those people. But if we think

1280
01:22:50,720 --> 01:22:54,280
Speaker 1: about if you had a scientific experiment, or maybe even

1281
01:22:54,400 --> 01:22:58,040
Speaker 1: not a scientific experiment, maybe buy lottery tickets things like that,

1282
01:22:59,080 --> 01:23:02,360
Speaker 1: the odds that any one of us buying you know

1283
01:23:02,520 --> 01:23:05,479
Speaker 1: that winning or in this case, that losing lottery ticket

1284
01:23:06,120 --> 01:23:11,040
Speaker 1: is extremely remote, But if you keep running that experiment

1285
01:23:11,360 --> 01:23:15,920
Speaker 1: enough times, you might expect an alternate outcome. At the

1286
01:23:16,000 --> 01:23:19,720
Speaker 1: end of the day, somebody wins the lottery. In the

1287
01:23:19,800 --> 01:23:24,800
Speaker 1: case of BSc, at least two hundred people got the

1288
01:23:24,880 --> 01:23:29,439
Speaker 1: bad lottery ticket where they developed disease from consuming BSc

1289
01:23:29,600 --> 01:23:34,360
Speaker 1: positive positive animals. So we keep challenging this system. You know,

1290
01:23:34,439 --> 01:23:38,040
Speaker 1: the odds are low from any for anyone individual, incredibly low.

1291
01:23:38,120 --> 01:23:40,120
Speaker 1: There's lots of things we do on a day to

1292
01:23:40,240 --> 01:23:43,720
Speaker 1: day basis which are much more risky than probably than

1293
01:23:43,800 --> 01:23:49,920
Speaker 1: consuming CWD positive venison, but were going along under the

1294
01:23:49,960 --> 01:23:54,160
Speaker 1: assumption that it cannot happen would be incorrect from a

1295
01:23:54,200 --> 01:23:57,840
Speaker 1: scientific set. That's what I find myself explaining when people

1296
01:23:57,960 --> 01:24:03,439
Speaker 1: ask me about it, is I'm like, no known, no, no, no,

1297
01:24:04,920 --> 01:24:08,040
Speaker 1: So take whatever solace you like you want from that.

1298
01:24:08,479 --> 01:24:12,519
Speaker 1: But it's just a lot of unknown man. So there's

1299
01:24:12,560 --> 01:24:15,560
Speaker 1: a few things we can look to. What is a

1300
01:24:15,640 --> 01:24:20,559
Speaker 1: place called the World Health Organization w h O. Their

1301
01:24:20,640 --> 01:24:26,519
Speaker 1: recommendations are pretty firm that animal material known to be

1302
01:24:26,720 --> 01:24:30,000
Speaker 1: positive for a c w or for any t SC

1303
01:24:30,720 --> 01:24:34,679
Speaker 1: should not be consumed by any other man animal, including humans.

1304
01:24:35,880 --> 01:24:38,519
Speaker 1: World Health Organization says keep it out of the food.

1305
01:24:38,760 --> 01:24:41,240
Speaker 1: What does the Centers for Disease Control say? The Centers

1306
01:24:41,280 --> 01:24:44,040
Speaker 1: for Disease Control is very, very similar. They have a

1307
01:24:44,160 --> 01:24:47,839
Speaker 1: presence on their website, you know, dealing with chronic wasting disease.

1308
01:24:48,479 --> 01:24:51,920
Speaker 1: Their recommendations are things like, you know, if you hunt

1309
01:24:52,240 --> 01:24:55,479
Speaker 1: in an area where c w D is known to exist,

1310
01:24:56,120 --> 01:24:59,880
Speaker 1: you should consider getting your dear tested. And if you

1311
01:25:00,160 --> 01:25:02,720
Speaker 1: follow that, if you get your dear tested and it

1312
01:25:02,800 --> 01:25:06,160
Speaker 1: comes back positive, the recommendation is that you not consume

1313
01:25:06,240 --> 01:25:09,640
Speaker 1: that material. So here you have, you know, both the

1314
01:25:09,800 --> 01:25:13,479
Speaker 1: World Health Organization and our national Centers for Disease Control

1315
01:25:13,920 --> 01:25:19,160
Speaker 1: making pretty solid recommendations saying, yeah, you probably shouldn't need

1316
01:25:19,200 --> 01:25:23,800
Speaker 1: that stuff. So that's from that's from health professionals. Um.

1317
01:25:23,920 --> 01:25:29,040
Speaker 1: The Wisconsin Department of Health has a little corner in

1318
01:25:29,240 --> 01:25:32,120
Speaker 1: the UH in the rules digest. Every state has their

1319
01:25:32,160 --> 01:25:36,960
Speaker 1: hunting rules digest or you know hunting regulations digest. Uh.

1320
01:25:37,000 --> 01:25:40,200
Speaker 1: There's a little presence from the from the Department of

1321
01:25:40,280 --> 01:25:43,080
Speaker 1: Health in there, and they recommend that you should have

1322
01:25:43,200 --> 01:25:45,840
Speaker 1: your dear tested and if it comes back positive, that

1323
01:25:45,960 --> 01:25:50,840
Speaker 1: you're not consuming. Yeah, but man, I mean the implications

1324
01:25:50,920 --> 01:25:53,280
Speaker 1: of it, though, is as you get into these areas

1325
01:25:53,320 --> 01:25:55,719
Speaker 1: like this guy heard from the on their family property,

1326
01:25:56,000 --> 01:26:00,200
Speaker 1: four or five. As I said earlier, four of the

1327
01:26:00,240 --> 01:26:04,599
Speaker 1: five deer they killed on their property had it. If

1328
01:26:04,640 --> 01:26:07,439
Speaker 1: you're going to follow his recommendations at a point soon

1329
01:26:07,800 --> 01:26:10,200
Speaker 1: in a lot of areas around the country, it won't

1330
01:26:10,280 --> 01:26:13,640
Speaker 1: warrant the chase. There will be no there would be

1331
01:26:13,720 --> 01:26:15,920
Speaker 1: no reason to hunt. Hear, you're gonna shoot five deer

1332
01:26:16,080 --> 01:26:18,320
Speaker 1: to get one that you can consume if you're doing

1333
01:26:18,360 --> 01:26:21,400
Speaker 1: the test, if you're following the guidelines. Now I've told

1334
01:26:21,439 --> 01:26:26,800
Speaker 1: this story before, but I had mine tested from here.

1335
01:26:27,040 --> 01:26:30,639
Speaker 1: From here, Yeah, we had them all tested and took

1336
01:26:30,720 --> 01:26:32,479
Speaker 1: him home. Now, Initially I was like, I'm not even

1337
01:26:32,680 --> 01:26:35,479
Speaker 1: get a tested because I don't want to write. I'd

1338
01:26:35,600 --> 01:26:39,760
Speaker 1: rather just live in peace. The landowner insisted, Yeah, I'd

1339
01:26:39,840 --> 01:26:42,400
Speaker 1: rather know. Come on, I'd rather live. I'd rather live

1340
01:26:42,400 --> 01:26:46,400
Speaker 1: in ignorance. Right, just the peace, peaceful ignorance. But then

1341
01:26:46,479 --> 01:26:49,799
Speaker 1: I got to think of to myself, if my wife

1342
01:26:50,439 --> 01:26:54,720
Speaker 1: gets wind of the fact that there's a test one

1343
01:26:54,800 --> 01:27:00,240
Speaker 1: could get for free on a deer and did do

1344
01:27:00,400 --> 01:27:03,160
Speaker 1: it and opted to instead take said dear home and

1345
01:27:03,320 --> 01:27:08,400
Speaker 1: feed them to thy children, And then later you had

1346
01:27:08,479 --> 01:27:10,439
Speaker 1: to say like, oh, yeah, I could have had a

1347
01:27:10,560 --> 01:27:14,719
Speaker 1: test done but didn't instead just fed it to the kids.

1348
01:27:17,160 --> 01:27:20,360
Speaker 1: You know, you can picture all that's going. So what

1349
01:27:20,439 --> 01:27:22,240
Speaker 1: I did that was just like took the deer home,

1350
01:27:22,479 --> 01:27:26,400
Speaker 1: keptain my freezer, awaiting my results, got my results proceeded either,

1351
01:27:26,640 --> 01:27:31,519
Speaker 1: which were very quick by the way here in yeah,

1352
01:27:31,640 --> 01:27:34,840
Speaker 1: so that absolutely I don't want to go so far

1353
01:27:34,880 --> 01:27:38,040
Speaker 1: as to say you're stupid to not do that. Now,

1354
01:27:38,280 --> 01:27:42,400
Speaker 1: the rub is if it had come back positive, would

1355
01:27:42,439 --> 01:27:45,240
Speaker 1: I really have gone and taken those two deer and

1356
01:27:45,520 --> 01:27:49,800
Speaker 1: thrown them in the garbage? That is painful, and that

1357
01:27:50,080 --> 01:27:53,880
Speaker 1: is a you know, a very personal decision. It's based

1358
01:27:53,960 --> 01:27:59,360
Speaker 1: on what you know and your individual tolerance for risk.

1359
01:28:00,600 --> 01:28:02,680
Speaker 1: And that's what that's what I like to that's what

1360
01:28:02,800 --> 01:28:08,080
Speaker 1: I like to talk to people about. Is the chances

1361
01:28:08,120 --> 01:28:12,920
Speaker 1: are low, they're not zero. Is this a risk that

1362
01:28:13,040 --> 01:28:18,439
Speaker 1: you're willing to endure for yourself, for your family, for

1363
01:28:18,640 --> 01:28:21,240
Speaker 1: your children. Are you comfortable saying what you would do personally?

1364
01:28:21,880 --> 01:28:24,280
Speaker 1: I don't think it's really your main because I think

1365
01:28:24,360 --> 01:28:32,320
Speaker 1: my role is to information that I've studied this stuff

1366
01:28:32,320 --> 01:28:36,000
Speaker 1: for a long time, um, you know, to date, and

1367
01:28:36,080 --> 01:28:38,960
Speaker 1: I get my dear tested too because I want more

1368
01:28:39,000 --> 01:28:41,400
Speaker 1: c w D is it's not as thick, it's not

1369
01:28:41,520 --> 01:28:45,360
Speaker 1: as prevalent where I hunt yet as it is here

1370
01:28:45,520 --> 01:28:47,840
Speaker 1: or just to hair south of here, and I haven't

1371
01:28:47,920 --> 01:28:50,560
Speaker 1: hit a positive yet, let's put it that way. But

1372
01:28:50,680 --> 01:28:53,600
Speaker 1: you but you do, you do think obviously testing is

1373
01:28:53,600 --> 01:28:56,160
Speaker 1: a good idea if nothing else. I mean, it provide

1374
01:28:56,160 --> 01:28:59,960
Speaker 1: it provides data to people, provides data back to per science,

1375
01:29:00,080 --> 01:29:02,519
Speaker 1: just to try and track what's going on with this disease.

1376
01:29:03,320 --> 01:29:06,360
Speaker 1: You know, you're kind of boiling in now you're boiling

1377
01:29:06,400 --> 01:29:08,840
Speaker 1: into that kind of that big question, and it's why

1378
01:29:08,920 --> 01:29:12,320
Speaker 1: should people care about c w D? Okay, why care?

1379
01:29:12,560 --> 01:29:16,280
Speaker 1: Because it's been around a long time. Even where prevalence

1380
01:29:16,400 --> 01:29:19,479
Speaker 1: is high, there's still dear, maybe not as many, you know,

1381
01:29:19,600 --> 01:29:23,000
Speaker 1: maybe in these localized areas we see population level effects,

1382
01:29:23,080 --> 01:29:26,400
Speaker 1: but you know that's what I typically here. It's been

1383
01:29:26,439 --> 01:29:28,880
Speaker 1: here a long time. Cows don't get it, people don't

1384
01:29:28,920 --> 01:29:30,599
Speaker 1: get it, and there's plenty of dere to hunt. Why

1385
01:29:30,640 --> 01:29:34,120
Speaker 1: should I care about c w D Because it's a corruption.

1386
01:29:34,880 --> 01:29:38,160
Speaker 1: It's a potential corruption of a pristine food source. Yeah,

1387
01:29:38,240 --> 01:29:40,519
Speaker 1: it's not a it's not a normal part of the system.

1388
01:29:40,600 --> 01:29:43,240
Speaker 1: But anyway, I think we can boil this down and

1389
01:29:43,479 --> 01:29:46,080
Speaker 1: and and a paper came out a year ago written

1390
01:29:46,160 --> 01:29:49,599
Speaker 1: by a couple of people that I highly respect, John

1391
01:29:49,680 --> 01:29:54,639
Speaker 1: Fisher from the Southeastern Cooperative Wildlife Disease Study in in Athens, Georgia,

1392
01:29:55,160 --> 01:29:58,240
Speaker 1: and Mike Miller from the from the state of Colorado.

1393
01:29:58,920 --> 01:30:02,120
Speaker 1: And Mike has been publishing about c w D for

1394
01:30:02,920 --> 01:30:05,200
Speaker 1: you know, ever since I think the late seventies or

1395
01:30:05,240 --> 01:30:08,040
Speaker 1: early nineteen eighties. He knows as much about this disease

1396
01:30:08,120 --> 01:30:11,600
Speaker 1: as any other person does. Anyway, these guys wrote a

1397
01:30:11,680 --> 01:30:15,519
Speaker 1: paper and they give they've given some presentations to you know,

1398
01:30:15,720 --> 01:30:18,679
Speaker 1: to state audiences over the course of the last year,

1399
01:30:19,680 --> 01:30:22,840
Speaker 1: and they articulate why we why we should probably care

1400
01:30:22,880 --> 01:30:26,679
Speaker 1: about CWD and boil it down to some very simple things.

1401
01:30:26,840 --> 01:30:31,800
Speaker 1: One is that chance that CWD could cross over the

1402
01:30:31,880 --> 01:30:35,559
Speaker 1: species barrier and become a human disease. Issue. So that's

1403
01:30:35,560 --> 01:30:38,439
Speaker 1: a reason. One reason why we should be concerned about CWD,

1404
01:30:38,600 --> 01:30:41,120
Speaker 1: the chance that it could become a human health issue.

1405
01:30:41,840 --> 01:30:44,760
Speaker 1: Number two is that you know, we have, as I mentioned,

1406
01:30:44,840 --> 01:30:50,639
Speaker 1: we've now documented in a localized area population impacts coming

1407
01:30:50,760 --> 01:30:53,960
Speaker 1: from c w D, and at this point in time,

1408
01:30:54,040 --> 01:30:57,160
Speaker 1: we don't know. Time will tell whether those population impacts

1409
01:30:57,240 --> 01:31:01,320
Speaker 1: will become more regional, whether they'll bread from the localized

1410
01:31:01,360 --> 01:31:03,880
Speaker 1: area to the regional. So there's that chance that c

1411
01:31:04,160 --> 01:31:08,839
Speaker 1: w D could become a population impacting, population limiting factor.

1412
01:31:09,240 --> 01:31:12,040
Speaker 1: That's another reason we should care. Those are the two

1413
01:31:12,200 --> 01:31:14,479
Speaker 1: big ones that they that they point out in their paper.

1414
01:31:14,760 --> 01:31:17,200
Speaker 1: But now there's a third one that when these guys

1415
01:31:17,240 --> 01:31:19,479
Speaker 1: are out talking to audiences, and this is one that's

1416
01:31:19,520 --> 01:31:22,479
Speaker 1: come up as well. It's a highly technical term we

1417
01:31:22,600 --> 01:31:26,040
Speaker 1: call we referred to as the ick factor. You were

1418
01:31:26,080 --> 01:31:30,080
Speaker 1: talking about it before the early Human dimensions research where

1419
01:31:30,080 --> 01:31:32,600
Speaker 1: they sent surveys out to hunters and their families. They

1420
01:31:32,640 --> 01:31:34,360
Speaker 1: did a lot of that in the state of Wisconsin

1421
01:31:34,439 --> 01:31:37,240
Speaker 1: back in two thousand to two thousand three, two thousand four,

1422
01:31:38,040 --> 01:31:41,519
Speaker 1: and they reached you know, they asked hunters, at what

1423
01:31:41,840 --> 01:31:46,840
Speaker 1: point would you have had enough and decide not to

1424
01:31:46,920 --> 01:31:50,000
Speaker 1: go hunting there, And it seems like when you get

1425
01:31:50,080 --> 01:31:53,920
Speaker 1: up in that forty to fifty percent prevalence range where

1426
01:31:54,080 --> 01:31:56,760
Speaker 1: not too south to here, too far south here where

1427
01:31:56,800 --> 01:31:59,040
Speaker 1: you kill that three year old buck and flip a coin,

1428
01:31:59,479 --> 01:32:03,040
Speaker 1: we're in at range that at that point, when prevalence

1429
01:32:03,080 --> 01:32:07,280
Speaker 1: gets to that point, that ick factor might change your

1430
01:32:07,360 --> 01:32:10,439
Speaker 1: behavior and either you will decide not to hunt there,

1431
01:32:10,760 --> 01:32:13,840
Speaker 1: or perhaps your spouse will decide for you that you're

1432
01:32:13,920 --> 01:32:17,439
Speaker 1: not going to hunt there. So now put yourself in

1433
01:32:17,560 --> 01:32:21,519
Speaker 1: the in the shoes of a landowner who's trying to

1434
01:32:21,720 --> 01:32:24,600
Speaker 1: manage deer, keep deer numbers down so he might have

1435
01:32:24,760 --> 01:32:29,120
Speaker 1: some oaks regenerate someday. How do you manage dear without

1436
01:32:29,200 --> 01:32:32,920
Speaker 1: deer hunters? So, even when we get CWD prevalence up

1437
01:32:32,960 --> 01:32:36,719
Speaker 1: in that fifty percent range in adult males, it's probably

1438
01:32:36,760 --> 01:32:40,559
Speaker 1: going to be some time before disease starts limiting deer

1439
01:32:40,680 --> 01:32:43,519
Speaker 1: numbers themselves. So we're gonna have that intervening timeframe where

1440
01:32:43,560 --> 01:32:46,600
Speaker 1: deer numbers are gonna skyrock. But I'll add to that, like,

1441
01:32:46,720 --> 01:32:48,880
Speaker 1: how do you manage deer without deer hunters? How do

1442
01:32:48,920 --> 01:32:51,320
Speaker 1: you manage a host of fish and wildlife species without

1443
01:32:51,400 --> 01:32:55,200
Speaker 1: deer without revenue generator from license sales, from license sales,

1444
01:32:55,280 --> 01:32:57,840
Speaker 1: so it's like it's a it becomes a like no

1445
01:32:58,120 --> 01:33:01,600
Speaker 1: hunt like when you have a radical decline and hunter participation,

1446
01:33:02,080 --> 01:33:04,360
Speaker 1: it does not bolde well for any kind of wildlife

1447
01:33:04,400 --> 01:33:07,360
Speaker 1: that's managed about to state right, A lot of problems

1448
01:33:07,400 --> 01:33:11,920
Speaker 1: for access research the very Yeah, the very information were

1449
01:33:12,040 --> 01:33:15,320
Speaker 1: the acquisition of the very information we're talking about right now. Yea.

1450
01:33:15,520 --> 01:33:18,840
Speaker 1: So so people ask me why should I care? And

1451
01:33:18,920 --> 01:33:21,759
Speaker 1: those are the things that I've been keying on for probably,

1452
01:33:22,000 --> 01:33:24,439
Speaker 1: you know, close to ten years. Quick recap would be

1453
01:33:25,040 --> 01:33:29,080
Speaker 1: the potential impact on dear populations themselves. When prevalence gets

1454
01:33:29,160 --> 01:33:33,680
Speaker 1: high enough kills deer and you start seeing localized or

1455
01:33:33,760 --> 01:33:37,400
Speaker 1: regional population declines due to c w D due to disease.

1456
01:33:37,479 --> 01:33:41,080
Speaker 1: Nobody wants to see that. Number two, the possibility that

1457
01:33:41,200 --> 01:33:44,040
Speaker 1: c w D could cross over the species barrier and

1458
01:33:44,160 --> 01:33:47,920
Speaker 1: become a human health or maybe even a livestock health issue, okay.

1459
01:33:48,760 --> 01:33:52,799
Speaker 1: And number three is that ick factor that when prevalence

1460
01:33:52,880 --> 01:33:56,559
Speaker 1: gets high enough, hunters will change their behavior, quit hunting

1461
01:33:57,000 --> 01:34:00,479
Speaker 1: or go hunting someplace else, and all the rep cuestions

1462
01:34:00,520 --> 01:34:03,040
Speaker 1: that that has on our ability to manage gear and

1463
01:34:03,080 --> 01:34:05,760
Speaker 1: as you so, I definitely pointed out our ability to

1464
01:34:05,840 --> 01:34:10,800
Speaker 1: manage other things. Is deer hunting licenses pay for it all. Now,

1465
01:34:11,600 --> 01:34:15,679
Speaker 1: I know you've been itching, You've been scratching to get

1466
01:34:15,760 --> 01:34:18,720
Speaker 1: fascinated by the whole because you've been wanted, Because I

1467
01:34:18,840 --> 01:34:24,080
Speaker 1: know that you want you you're concerned about controlling the spread,

1468
01:34:27,320 --> 01:34:32,120
Speaker 1: No one, because I I think of that as the like, Yeah,

1469
01:34:32,160 --> 01:34:34,960
Speaker 1: you probably haven't noticed, but I I feel like I've

1470
01:34:35,000 --> 01:34:38,920
Speaker 1: tried to take us from the past into the present,

1471
01:34:39,640 --> 01:34:44,040
Speaker 1: and now we're moving into the future. I did notice that.

1472
01:34:44,160 --> 01:34:49,000
Speaker 1: That's very good. Yeah. Um, and and Brian's actually answered

1473
01:34:49,000 --> 01:34:51,040
Speaker 1: a lot of what I was the questions that I

1474
01:34:51,120 --> 01:34:52,840
Speaker 1: had that I wanted to start spurting out right at

1475
01:34:52,880 --> 01:34:58,280
Speaker 1: the beginning. Um, can I speak for you for a minute? Always?

1476
01:34:59,040 --> 01:35:01,080
Speaker 1: Is that that that that that bother you? No, not

1477
01:35:01,160 --> 01:35:07,120
Speaker 1: at all. You worry a doug during worries a lot

1478
01:35:08,920 --> 01:35:13,479
Speaker 1: about c w D because you're on sort of the

1479
01:35:13,960 --> 01:35:17,080
Speaker 1: you're on like the threshold. Yeah, we're right there. As

1480
01:35:17,240 --> 01:35:19,320
Speaker 1: as Brian said, it's just to the south of us.

1481
01:35:19,400 --> 01:35:23,400
Speaker 1: I'm guessing that we have dear in our immediate area

1482
01:35:23,479 --> 01:35:26,720
Speaker 1: that have the disease. Um into DAT and none off

1483
01:35:26,760 --> 01:35:29,240
Speaker 1: this farm to DAT None office farm. And we've tested

1484
01:35:29,840 --> 01:35:34,200
Speaker 1: every year for the last two or three years. And

1485
01:35:34,280 --> 01:35:37,479
Speaker 1: where I hunt in Crawford County, Um, we saw it

1486
01:35:37,640 --> 01:35:41,559
Speaker 1: coming Crawford being just west of Richland County where we are,

1487
01:35:42,720 --> 01:35:47,120
Speaker 1: UM from the tree stand I sit in. Two years ago,

1488
01:35:47,280 --> 01:35:50,160
Speaker 1: the first positive in Crawford County was killed in a

1489
01:35:50,320 --> 01:35:53,000
Speaker 1: I think it was a four year old buck about

1490
01:35:53,320 --> 01:35:56,840
Speaker 1: three miles to the northeast of where I'm sitting in

1491
01:35:56,920 --> 01:36:02,439
Speaker 1: a tree. Last year another one was picked up in

1492
01:36:02,600 --> 01:36:06,559
Speaker 1: the section just to the southwest of where I'm sitting

1493
01:36:06,640 --> 01:36:09,720
Speaker 1: in that in that in that tree stands, So I'm

1494
01:36:09,760 --> 01:36:13,280
Speaker 1: watching it as well. First you know, you see it coming,

1495
01:36:14,040 --> 01:36:17,439
Speaker 1: and then it's just off to this side. Now it's

1496
01:36:17,479 --> 01:36:19,640
Speaker 1: on the other corner as well, and it doesn't end

1497
01:36:19,760 --> 01:36:22,879
Speaker 1: into you start looking at a mature deer a little differently.

1498
01:36:23,400 --> 01:36:26,680
Speaker 1: You can go onto the Wisconsin d in our website

1499
01:36:26,720 --> 01:36:30,880
Speaker 1: and UH in the c w D section, and of course,

1500
01:36:31,439 --> 01:36:33,479
Speaker 1: as you're saying, the statistics are a little bit different

1501
01:36:33,520 --> 01:36:37,559
Speaker 1: now because testing isn't as widespread. But you can take

1502
01:36:37,720 --> 01:36:41,479
Speaker 1: a year to year over the last several years, the

1503
01:36:42,439 --> 01:36:48,439
Speaker 1: photographs or these or the results of southwest Wisconsin and

1504
01:36:48,479 --> 01:36:51,680
Speaker 1: it shows every section and it started in the what

1505
01:36:51,800 --> 01:36:54,479
Speaker 1: they called the hot zone. And if you you kind

1506
01:36:54,479 --> 01:36:57,280
Speaker 1: of flipped through those very quickly, you just see that boop.

1507
01:36:57,439 --> 01:37:00,120
Speaker 1: It just keeps widening. And it starts out there, Oh,

1508
01:37:00,160 --> 01:37:03,160
Speaker 1: there's a little pink squares here, and then there gets

1509
01:37:03,200 --> 01:37:05,320
Speaker 1: to be more of them, and then numbers keep getting bigger,

1510
01:37:05,360 --> 01:37:08,160
Speaker 1: and it just keeps, you know, spreading in that way. Um.

1511
01:37:08,360 --> 01:37:10,800
Speaker 1: I was freaked out about enough earlier. But now that

1512
01:37:10,840 --> 01:37:12,680
Speaker 1: I've talked with you about it, the part that I

1513
01:37:12,760 --> 01:37:17,880
Speaker 1: didn't that it wasn't registering with me was Stephen, I've

1514
01:37:17,920 --> 01:37:20,920
Speaker 1: talked a lot about, you know, management and why why

1515
01:37:20,920 --> 01:37:23,679
Speaker 1: I'm concerned about it. I like hunting deer, like having

1516
01:37:23,840 --> 01:37:28,120
Speaker 1: enough uh deer hunt. I like eating venison. Um, it's

1517
01:37:28,479 --> 01:37:30,800
Speaker 1: there's the economic impact in the area and all these

1518
01:37:30,840 --> 01:37:33,280
Speaker 1: wonderful things that are a part of it. And and

1519
01:37:34,000 --> 01:37:36,520
Speaker 1: I guess I told you before we started the podcasts

1520
01:37:36,560 --> 01:37:40,640
Speaker 1: that one of our management objectives here is to regenerate

1521
01:37:40,920 --> 01:37:43,599
Speaker 1: red oak up in a chunk of woods that we're

1522
01:37:43,640 --> 01:37:46,559
Speaker 1: cutting my great grandfather's trees, hunting twenty five year old trees.

1523
01:37:47,479 --> 01:37:49,920
Speaker 1: And uh, We've put a lot of effort into a

1524
01:37:49,960 --> 01:37:54,360
Speaker 1: shelter would harvest up there, and now you know there's

1525
01:37:54,400 --> 01:37:56,680
Speaker 1: been a decline in hunters already certainly hadn't been a

1526
01:37:56,800 --> 01:37:59,599
Speaker 1: decline in hunters on this place, but some in the area.

1527
01:37:59,640 --> 01:38:02,960
Speaker 1: But the then mall factor in that ick factor where

1528
01:38:03,080 --> 01:38:07,880
Speaker 1: people fewer people are are are hunting, and well you're

1529
01:38:07,920 --> 01:38:10,760
Speaker 1: gonna start dying off, but not until a chew down

1530
01:38:10,800 --> 01:38:12,400
Speaker 1: every yoak I've got up there, and that would I mean,

1531
01:38:12,439 --> 01:38:15,840
Speaker 1: there's just there's a whole another uh concern that I

1532
01:38:16,000 --> 01:38:21,280
Speaker 1: have to Um. I mean, I was, you're gonna have

1533
01:38:21,479 --> 01:38:23,160
Speaker 1: if it kills all the do you have more oaks

1534
01:38:23,200 --> 01:38:24,640
Speaker 1: you know what to do with? Yeah, but it's not

1535
01:38:24,720 --> 01:38:26,800
Speaker 1: gonna as Brian was saying, it's not gonna Well, it's

1536
01:38:26,840 --> 01:38:28,719
Speaker 1: not gonna kill all the would be a nice problem

1537
01:38:28,760 --> 01:38:33,120
Speaker 1: to have. Yeah, well yeah, sure, it would be too

1538
01:38:33,120 --> 01:38:34,680
Speaker 1: many oak trees to be a nice problem they have.

1539
01:38:34,800 --> 01:38:37,559
Speaker 1: But um, and so I was feeling like, as I said,

1540
01:38:37,560 --> 01:38:40,160
Speaker 1: I'm on the County Deer Advisory Committee, and one of

1541
01:38:40,200 --> 01:38:42,320
Speaker 1: the statements that I made during our meetings was, I

1542
01:38:42,400 --> 01:38:46,320
Speaker 1: feel like we have an obligation in Richeal County, especially uh,

1543
01:38:47,600 --> 01:38:49,400
Speaker 1: you know here a little further north, And I talked

1544
01:38:49,439 --> 01:38:51,599
Speaker 1: with folks around here about this that you know, we're

1545
01:38:51,640 --> 01:38:53,000
Speaker 1: on the edge of it now, on the edge of

1546
01:38:53,040 --> 01:38:56,760
Speaker 1: the spread. We have an obligation to I feel we

1547
01:38:56,840 --> 01:38:59,880
Speaker 1: have an obligation at least to do what we can

1548
01:38:59,920 --> 01:39:02,280
Speaker 1: to slow the spread of it down. And how do

1549
01:39:02,360 --> 01:39:06,280
Speaker 1: you do that? Well, there have been these conflicting and

1550
01:39:06,320 --> 01:39:08,360
Speaker 1: it was actually something I wanted to ask you about.

1551
01:39:08,520 --> 01:39:11,639
Speaker 1: One is population control, but then the other one's demographic control,

1552
01:39:11,720 --> 01:39:14,760
Speaker 1: because the uh, the younger bucks are the ones who

1553
01:39:14,800 --> 01:39:18,439
Speaker 1: are more apt to spread it. Um, at least that's

1554
01:39:18,479 --> 01:39:24,360
Speaker 1: what I'm reading like in Samuel's research. Um, So, I

1555
01:39:24,400 --> 01:39:26,560
Speaker 1: guess I don't have any I don't have. I'm not

1556
01:39:26,840 --> 01:39:28,519
Speaker 1: leading up to a question so much as I'm just

1557
01:39:28,600 --> 01:39:34,439
Speaker 1: making is there a reason to believe that lowering a

1558
01:39:34,520 --> 01:39:41,519
Speaker 1: deer population by some factor whatever slow as the spread?

1559
01:39:42,960 --> 01:39:47,120
Speaker 1: Is that just an assumption? We're making some assumptions there. Um,

1560
01:39:47,560 --> 01:39:49,400
Speaker 1: I can try and address that a little bit. So

1561
01:39:49,960 --> 01:39:56,160
Speaker 1: if we have a population that has prevalence, and we

1562
01:39:56,439 --> 01:39:59,880
Speaker 1: may wave a magic want and we make half a

1563
01:40:00,040 --> 01:40:07,400
Speaker 1: those deer disappear today, what's the prevalence in the remaining population? Right?

1564
01:40:07,520 --> 01:40:12,519
Speaker 1: Because we're not selectively taking. That's why one of the

1565
01:40:12,600 --> 01:40:15,479
Speaker 1: reasons it's so challenging to try and manage c w D.

1566
01:40:16,080 --> 01:40:19,920
Speaker 1: We don't have good vaccines, we don't have any therapeutics

1567
01:40:20,320 --> 01:40:23,040
Speaker 1: that you could, you know, give a dearer dose of penicillin,

1568
01:40:23,120 --> 01:40:27,840
Speaker 1: it would make CWD go away. And they don't stand

1569
01:40:27,880 --> 01:40:30,439
Speaker 1: out when you look at a deer standing in the

1570
01:40:30,520 --> 01:40:33,720
Speaker 1: pasture or in the woods unless it's at that very

1571
01:40:33,880 --> 01:40:38,000
Speaker 1: late state of disease where it's obviously positive. We have

1572
01:40:38,120 --> 01:40:41,160
Speaker 1: no idea whether it's whether it's CWD positive or negative.

1573
01:40:41,439 --> 01:40:44,360
Speaker 1: So when you shoot a deer, you don't know. So

1574
01:40:44,840 --> 01:40:46,840
Speaker 1: that's why this disease is. One of the reasons it's

1575
01:40:46,880 --> 01:40:52,719
Speaker 1: so challenging is because we don't have affective management tools. Okay,

1576
01:40:52,840 --> 01:40:56,120
Speaker 1: so you would say say there, well, then why lower

1577
01:40:56,160 --> 01:40:58,880
Speaker 1: deer population? Right, doesn't make any sense because we're not

1578
01:40:59,040 --> 01:41:02,880
Speaker 1: impacting prev bents or the proportion of animals positive. But

1579
01:41:02,960 --> 01:41:05,960
Speaker 1: I think it's very important to lower to keep those

1580
01:41:06,000 --> 01:41:09,400
Speaker 1: dear populations low. Number one is for oaks. Well, I'm

1581
01:41:09,439 --> 01:41:11,400
Speaker 1: not sure number one is oaks, but oaks are in

1582
01:41:11,439 --> 01:41:16,479
Speaker 1: the equation. Oaks are definitely like equation um, you know,

1583
01:41:16,640 --> 01:41:20,400
Speaker 1: agricultural crop depredation is another. Uh, the number of deer

1584
01:41:20,479 --> 01:41:23,800
Speaker 1: vehicle collisions is another, and disease is another as well.

1585
01:41:24,520 --> 01:41:27,080
Speaker 1: So let's take that population that we waived our magic

1586
01:41:27,160 --> 01:41:29,400
Speaker 1: wand and we made half of them go away, we

1587
01:41:29,520 --> 01:41:32,720
Speaker 1: still have ten percent prevalence. But the key to me

1588
01:41:33,000 --> 01:41:35,960
Speaker 1: is we only have half as many positives as we

1589
01:41:36,160 --> 01:41:40,600
Speaker 1: had before we waived our magic wand with half of

1590
01:41:40,680 --> 01:41:45,200
Speaker 1: those positives, we have less animals actively shedding infectious agents

1591
01:41:45,240 --> 01:41:47,680
Speaker 1: out into the environment where it's going to persist for

1592
01:41:47,960 --> 01:41:52,400
Speaker 1: years to decades. We have fewer animals which are able

1593
01:41:52,479 --> 01:41:57,760
Speaker 1: to actively transmit disease to other deer. And the thing

1594
01:41:57,840 --> 01:42:02,240
Speaker 1: you keep on before was that spursal. Okay, if we

1595
01:42:02,400 --> 01:42:06,080
Speaker 1: have fewer CWD positive deer out there on the landscape,

1596
01:42:06,360 --> 01:42:09,080
Speaker 1: we have fewer animals that might decide to pick up

1597
01:42:09,160 --> 01:42:12,000
Speaker 1: and move their home ten or twenty miles down the road,

1598
01:42:12,200 --> 01:42:15,360
Speaker 1: moving disease with them. So that to me is the

1599
01:42:15,560 --> 01:42:19,920
Speaker 1: argument while lower dear populations, lowering dear populations is good

1600
01:42:20,960 --> 01:42:24,560
Speaker 1: if theoretically, if we took dear populations down to some

1601
01:42:24,960 --> 01:42:28,640
Speaker 1: very very astoundingly low level, we may be able to

1602
01:42:28,880 --> 01:42:32,519
Speaker 1: break or interrupt the disease transmission cycle. And then we

1603
01:42:32,600 --> 01:42:36,320
Speaker 1: would actually reduce prevalence. But that's taking deer down to

1604
01:42:37,040 --> 01:42:40,679
Speaker 1: you know, scarce, you know, five deer per square mile

1605
01:42:40,920 --> 01:42:42,920
Speaker 1: not probably not going to do it. We'd have to

1606
01:42:42,960 --> 01:42:46,960
Speaker 1: take deer down to where interaction. We'd have to take

1607
01:42:47,040 --> 01:42:50,479
Speaker 1: it down to areas where deer would be rare in

1608
01:42:50,680 --> 01:42:54,599
Speaker 1: order to interrupt the transmission cycle. But like I said,

1609
01:42:54,840 --> 01:42:58,879
Speaker 1: those very positive benefits of taking dear populations low. Lowering

1610
01:42:59,120 --> 01:43:03,080
Speaker 1: the absolute number of CW positive deer on the landscape

1611
01:43:03,320 --> 01:43:07,519
Speaker 1: has very definite benefits. Um when in this part of

1612
01:43:07,560 --> 01:43:10,320
Speaker 1: the world we assume we know as dear biologists and

1613
01:43:10,439 --> 01:43:13,920
Speaker 1: landowners who have dear um hunters who spend a lot

1614
01:43:14,000 --> 01:43:15,679
Speaker 1: of time with deer, we know quite a bit about

1615
01:43:15,760 --> 01:43:20,560
Speaker 1: dear behavior. So who is the most likely candidate to

1616
01:43:20,760 --> 01:43:23,639
Speaker 1: disperse to take a ten or twenty mile or even

1617
01:43:23,720 --> 01:43:27,920
Speaker 1: up to a hundred mile hike. Young males when at

1618
01:43:27,960 --> 01:43:31,479
Speaker 1: what time? How old are they one year old, twelve months?

1619
01:43:31,680 --> 01:43:34,040
Speaker 1: When mama gives them the boot, you know they've hung

1620
01:43:34,120 --> 01:43:36,439
Speaker 1: around with mom pretty much their first year of life.

1621
01:43:36,840 --> 01:43:39,479
Speaker 1: When that dough gives them a boot, before you know,

1622
01:43:39,600 --> 01:43:42,639
Speaker 1: she has her next set of fawns, um she'll she'll

1623
01:43:42,720 --> 01:43:45,320
Speaker 1: give those um those year links twelve months of old

1624
01:43:45,400 --> 01:43:51,240
Speaker 1: animals of boot we'll start kicking out literally and a

1625
01:43:51,439 --> 01:43:54,920
Speaker 1: and a female fawn or female yearling will likely set

1626
01:43:55,000 --> 01:43:58,799
Speaker 1: up her home range adjacent to where mom is. Okay,

1627
01:43:58,960 --> 01:44:01,639
Speaker 1: more often than not, you'll find her place pretty close

1628
01:44:01,720 --> 01:44:05,479
Speaker 1: to mom, keeping that family group together. The young male,

1629
01:44:05,800 --> 01:44:08,040
Speaker 1: on the other hand, he needs to go out and

1630
01:44:08,160 --> 01:44:11,680
Speaker 1: find a place and so that might be close by,

1631
01:44:12,200 --> 01:44:15,040
Speaker 1: it might be quite a ways away. Like any of

1632
01:44:15,080 --> 01:44:19,800
Speaker 1: these stories you hear, were some animal turns up three

1633
01:44:19,920 --> 01:44:23,120
Speaker 1: states over right, it's a it's a it's a young guy.

1634
01:44:23,160 --> 01:44:26,840
Speaker 1: It's a young man, a Latin line that comes from

1635
01:44:26,880 --> 01:44:29,600
Speaker 1: South Dakota and shows up in Wisconsin. Yeah, with a

1636
01:44:29,720 --> 01:44:33,120
Speaker 1: radio color or like elk it turns up Missouri. Or

1637
01:44:33,160 --> 01:44:35,320
Speaker 1: wolf out of the up that gets shot outside of

1638
01:44:35,360 --> 01:44:38,360
Speaker 1: guy's chicken Cooper, Missouri. Now those can do it too.

1639
01:44:38,920 --> 01:44:43,080
Speaker 1: But when you think of the predominant animal that disperses

1640
01:44:43,240 --> 01:44:46,599
Speaker 1: as that twelve month old male. So if that twelve

1641
01:44:46,640 --> 01:44:50,080
Speaker 1: month old male has c w D and decides to

1642
01:44:50,160 --> 01:44:52,920
Speaker 1: go ten or twenty miles or thirty miles before it

1643
01:44:53,000 --> 01:44:56,000
Speaker 1: finds its new home, that could be you know, the

1644
01:44:56,080 --> 01:44:59,960
Speaker 1: animal that moves disease. So yeah, I don't think we were.

1645
01:45:00,080 --> 01:45:02,519
Speaker 1: We didn't quite get into it. But we think about

1646
01:45:02,640 --> 01:45:06,960
Speaker 1: how disease moves, how CWD moves, and we have that

1647
01:45:07,120 --> 01:45:11,880
Speaker 1: clearly at that dear to dear slow diffusion, diffusive type

1648
01:45:11,960 --> 01:45:14,599
Speaker 1: movement with an odd deer that picks up and goes

1649
01:45:14,640 --> 01:45:18,519
Speaker 1: a long way. Case in pointed in the state of Wyoming,

1650
01:45:18,560 --> 01:45:20,640
Speaker 1: they had a mule deer I think it was a

1651
01:45:20,880 --> 01:45:24,680
Speaker 1: dough that was CWD positive, had a radio collar. She

1652
01:45:24,840 --> 01:45:27,400
Speaker 1: went over a little over a hundred miles as the

1653
01:45:27,479 --> 01:45:30,240
Speaker 1: crow flies. Yeah, they lost her and then found her

1654
01:45:30,240 --> 01:45:33,360
Speaker 1: again with the UM with UM with a fixed wing

1655
01:45:33,439 --> 01:45:36,280
Speaker 1: aircraft with a with an antenna on it. And she

1656
01:45:36,439 --> 01:45:39,400
Speaker 1: had moved c w D herself and c w D

1657
01:45:39,520 --> 01:45:42,920
Speaker 1: infectious agent over a hundred miles as the crow flies.

1658
01:45:43,120 --> 01:45:47,720
Speaker 1: Now how far did she actually go? Okay, so we

1659
01:45:47,880 --> 01:45:50,720
Speaker 1: think of that slow to do they have like what

1660
01:45:51,320 --> 01:45:56,519
Speaker 1: just that was her personality type? She's no explanation for it. No,

1661
01:45:56,800 --> 01:45:59,800
Speaker 1: no explanation I'm aware with of you know why she

1662
01:46:00,040 --> 01:46:02,960
Speaker 1: did that, but she did and periodically Yale, you'll have

1663
01:46:03,120 --> 01:46:06,640
Speaker 1: animals in they had a dough here um in the

1664
01:46:06,720 --> 01:46:08,760
Speaker 1: early years of c w D when they were doing

1665
01:46:08,840 --> 01:46:11,920
Speaker 1: a collar and follower study, capturing the animals, putting telemetry

1666
01:46:12,000 --> 01:46:14,840
Speaker 1: collars on them and following. Had one that went from

1667
01:46:14,920 --> 01:46:18,360
Speaker 1: outside of Mount Horror just outside of Rockford and then

1668
01:46:18,439 --> 01:46:20,719
Speaker 1: she turned her on and came back. Apparently she didn't

1669
01:46:20,720 --> 01:46:26,120
Speaker 1: like Rockford, so but h so, anyway, that's the that

1670
01:46:26,520 --> 01:46:29,679
Speaker 1: first mechanism is that dear to dear to deer. Then

1671
01:46:29,760 --> 01:46:32,320
Speaker 1: the other one, the big one that we had can

1672
01:46:32,479 --> 01:46:34,519
Speaker 1: have something to do with. We might not be able

1673
01:46:34,560 --> 01:46:36,439
Speaker 1: to do a lot about dear to deer other than

1674
01:46:36,600 --> 01:46:39,760
Speaker 1: lowering populations trying to kill c w D positive deer.

1675
01:46:40,320 --> 01:46:44,839
Speaker 1: But the other broad category is human assisted movement. Okay,

1676
01:46:45,520 --> 01:46:48,200
Speaker 1: that's a big that we haven't really touched on, and

1677
01:46:48,280 --> 01:46:53,200
Speaker 1: there's multiple possibilities there. One is gonna be the deer farms, okay,

1678
01:46:53,280 --> 01:46:57,839
Speaker 1: the captive servid industry. That industry is built on movement

1679
01:46:57,960 --> 01:47:00,519
Speaker 1: of animals, moving them from place A to place B.

1680
01:47:01,240 --> 01:47:04,960
Speaker 1: In the United States, there've been over eighty game farms

1681
01:47:05,400 --> 01:47:09,559
Speaker 1: that have been detected CWD positive. Okay. In Canada there's

1682
01:47:09,640 --> 01:47:13,439
Speaker 1: been just under a hundred elk farms now that where

1683
01:47:13,520 --> 01:47:19,040
Speaker 1: CWD has been detected. So is this a risk factor? Absolutely? Oh,

1684
01:47:19,080 --> 01:47:25,280
Speaker 1: there are some there are some mainstream wildlife groups who

1685
01:47:25,320 --> 01:47:29,120
Speaker 1: have proposed a band and I'm not talking like like

1686
01:47:29,640 --> 01:47:33,360
Speaker 1: radical and virals, but i mean like hunter based wildlife

1687
01:47:33,400 --> 01:47:36,680
Speaker 1: groups that proposed the idea that we should ban interstate

1688
01:47:36,760 --> 01:47:41,840
Speaker 1: deer traffic or interstate deer traffic right. And some states,

1689
01:47:41,960 --> 01:47:46,040
Speaker 1: some states have actually uh, some states have never had

1690
01:47:46,120 --> 01:47:49,280
Speaker 1: a captive serving industry lawful. Uh. There's been a few

1691
01:47:49,400 --> 01:47:54,360
Speaker 1: states that have through citizen initiatives lad to legislative action

1692
01:47:54,960 --> 01:47:58,640
Speaker 1: to get rid of the industry. There is oversight um

1693
01:47:58,720 --> 01:48:02,640
Speaker 1: to a degree, there's over site on interstate movement of animals.

1694
01:48:03,120 --> 01:48:07,960
Speaker 1: But this is one risk factor now and we bring

1695
01:48:08,040 --> 01:48:11,160
Speaker 1: it home to Wisconsin. Here, we've got um, We've got

1696
01:48:11,360 --> 01:48:16,600
Speaker 1: three game farm shooter facilities or you know, whatever you

1697
01:48:16,640 --> 01:48:18,920
Speaker 1: want to call them, whatever you want to call them,

1698
01:48:20,520 --> 01:48:23,360
Speaker 1: fenced operation. There's a lot of them in Wisconsin anyway.

1699
01:48:23,400 --> 01:48:25,679
Speaker 1: There's three of them in the in the northern part

1700
01:48:25,720 --> 01:48:30,320
Speaker 1: of the state of Wisconsin where cw D has been detected.

1701
01:48:31,120 --> 01:48:36,839
Speaker 1: And the typical, the historical, the the response from management community,

1702
01:48:36,960 --> 01:48:41,880
Speaker 1: the agriculture or natural resources is to depopulate that facility

1703
01:48:41,960 --> 01:48:45,559
Speaker 1: to stamp out disease kill all the animals in it, right,

1704
01:48:46,280 --> 01:48:49,560
Speaker 1: So we now have three in the northern part of

1705
01:48:49,600 --> 01:48:54,559
Speaker 1: the state where they have not been depopulated. There are

1706
01:48:55,040 --> 01:48:57,799
Speaker 1: you know, these facilities are allowed to stay in business

1707
01:48:58,439 --> 01:49:03,479
Speaker 1: um restock animals, so multiple CWD positives. These facilities are

1708
01:49:04,120 --> 01:49:07,920
Speaker 1: in deer country, so we have wild deer on the

1709
01:49:08,000 --> 01:49:11,639
Speaker 1: other side of the fence. So some dude can pretend,

1710
01:49:11,880 --> 01:49:18,080
Speaker 1: can pay to pretend to go hunting. That's it. So

1711
01:49:19,040 --> 01:49:22,280
Speaker 1: he like some guy that can't stomach the idea that

1712
01:49:22,320 --> 01:49:24,880
Speaker 1: you'd have to go out and try and maybe cope

1713
01:49:24,960 --> 01:49:28,200
Speaker 1: with failure. Would be like, I could just pay some

1714
01:49:28,320 --> 01:49:32,479
Speaker 1: money and be guaranteed success because what I'm interested in, hey,

1715
01:49:32,560 --> 01:49:35,880
Speaker 1: by the inch, is getting what I paid for, getting

1716
01:49:35,920 --> 01:49:42,800
Speaker 1: what I came for. SAE. That's probably true. I probably

1717
01:49:42,840 --> 01:49:49,040
Speaker 1: shouldn't comment on that, but these are the These very

1718
01:49:49,200 --> 01:49:55,519
Speaker 1: definitely pose a transmission risk and epidemiological risk to free

1719
01:49:55,600 --> 01:49:59,080
Speaker 1: ranging deer on the other side of the fence. And

1720
01:49:59,320 --> 01:50:01,600
Speaker 1: so these are when I talk to people in the

1721
01:50:01,720 --> 01:50:04,400
Speaker 1: northern part of the state, they said, well, what are

1722
01:50:04,439 --> 01:50:06,920
Speaker 1: the risks. Well, the risks are you know, things we

1723
01:50:07,040 --> 01:50:09,360
Speaker 1: talked about dear to deer to deer movement and then

1724
01:50:09,800 --> 01:50:15,040
Speaker 1: anthropogenic are human assisted movement. One of those is the

1725
01:50:15,200 --> 01:50:19,240
Speaker 1: captive deer industry and the existence of these positive facilities

1726
01:50:19,240 --> 01:50:21,840
Speaker 1: where if a fence goes down or there's nose to

1727
01:50:21,920 --> 01:50:24,960
Speaker 1: nose contact through the fence, that disease could leak out

1728
01:50:25,000 --> 01:50:28,240
Speaker 1: of that facility. But another one we haven't talked about,

1729
01:50:29,479 --> 01:50:32,679
Speaker 1: movement of movement, movement of carcasses. Oh well, then there's

1730
01:50:32,720 --> 01:50:34,720
Speaker 1: the third that I wanted to ask about, because there's

1731
01:50:34,720 --> 01:50:36,000
Speaker 1: some of these facilities and you can go out and

1732
01:50:36,000 --> 01:50:39,439
Speaker 1: watch the YouTube videos at these facilities and they're put

1733
01:50:39,560 --> 01:50:43,840
Speaker 1: on by the captive captive servant industry about how here's

1734
01:50:43,840 --> 01:50:46,240
Speaker 1: how we do our deer. And they run them through

1735
01:50:46,320 --> 01:50:49,240
Speaker 1: just like a run cattle through a shoot, and they're

1736
01:50:49,280 --> 01:50:54,640
Speaker 1: taking urine, and they're taking uh, you know, any kind

1737
01:50:54,680 --> 01:50:59,000
Speaker 1: of glace for for deer attractive. And now they're selling

1738
01:50:59,040 --> 01:51:02,840
Speaker 1: that stuff in a bottle. And I mean, you go

1739
01:51:02,920 --> 01:51:05,439
Speaker 1: into any sporting goods store and you see this stuff,

1740
01:51:06,720 --> 01:51:08,560
Speaker 1: are there any restricts? Well, I guess you would know

1741
01:51:08,640 --> 01:51:10,640
Speaker 1: that necessarily or or may don't want to comment, But

1742
01:51:11,280 --> 01:51:13,439
Speaker 1: I started thinking about that. So now I'd go into

1743
01:51:13,520 --> 01:51:16,080
Speaker 1: the you know, Bob sporting goods store or whatever, and

1744
01:51:16,160 --> 01:51:20,519
Speaker 1: by a bottle of do urine in astrius and take

1745
01:51:20,600 --> 01:51:23,080
Speaker 1: that out and you know, spray it around and possibly

1746
01:51:23,160 --> 01:51:27,200
Speaker 1: spread am I that's not risk. Isn't a risk? Yes,

1747
01:51:27,760 --> 01:51:33,639
Speaker 1: it's a risk. Is it a numerically large risk? Yeah,

1748
01:51:33,720 --> 01:51:38,080
Speaker 1: it's hard to say. It's probably the facility. Sure, let's

1749
01:51:38,080 --> 01:51:39,960
Speaker 1: go back to I'd like to come back to that.

1750
01:51:40,240 --> 01:51:43,240
Speaker 1: Let me roll up the carcass manager, push you, because

1751
01:51:43,280 --> 01:51:46,320
Speaker 1: I think that's a significant one. So you know, come back.

1752
01:51:46,400 --> 01:51:48,880
Speaker 1: We've got you know that slow, dear to dear animal

1753
01:51:49,000 --> 01:51:52,840
Speaker 1: movement that it's it's hard to change that one. But

1754
01:51:52,960 --> 01:51:56,360
Speaker 1: then we have human facilitated disease movement. We talked about

1755
01:51:56,360 --> 01:51:59,840
Speaker 1: it originally with raccoon rabies. We moved raccoons with rabies

1756
01:51:59,920 --> 01:52:03,599
Speaker 1: or round. So we move deer with c w D around.

1757
01:52:03,680 --> 01:52:08,240
Speaker 1: We moved elk with CWD to South Korea, very clear.

1758
01:52:08,760 --> 01:52:12,040
Speaker 1: So the industry has a role. But carcasses are another one.

1759
01:52:12,439 --> 01:52:17,000
Speaker 1: So let's say you go out hunting in Wyoming in

1760
01:52:17,680 --> 01:52:21,040
Speaker 1: Converse County and you killed the mule deer buck of

1761
01:52:21,080 --> 01:52:24,599
Speaker 1: a lifetime. Yeah, and you know, five year old deer

1762
01:52:25,000 --> 01:52:28,280
Speaker 1: and like I said, it's coin flip. Say he's got

1763
01:52:28,360 --> 01:52:32,240
Speaker 1: c w D. So you bring that carcass, you know,

1764
01:52:32,400 --> 01:52:37,840
Speaker 1: back to your domicile, and you butcher yourself because that's

1765
01:52:37,920 --> 01:52:41,200
Speaker 1: what you've always done. Or you've got a few hundred

1766
01:52:41,240 --> 01:52:44,280
Speaker 1: acres here, you know there's there's parts left over when

1767
01:52:44,320 --> 01:52:48,080
Speaker 1: you're done butchering. You've got the spinal column, you've got

1768
01:52:48,240 --> 01:52:52,920
Speaker 1: the skull, unless it's all the parts where where infectious

1769
01:52:52,960 --> 01:52:56,639
Speaker 1: agent is concentrated. What do you do with that waste material?

1770
01:52:57,360 --> 01:53:00,760
Speaker 1: Do you dump it out on the back forty? If

1771
01:53:00,840 --> 01:53:05,320
Speaker 1: you do that, does that constitute a very real risk

1772
01:53:05,600 --> 01:53:11,120
Speaker 1: of introducing infectious agent to a naive, susceptible host population.

1773
01:53:11,200 --> 01:53:15,800
Speaker 1: The answer is yes. So many states and many of

1774
01:53:15,840 --> 01:53:22,800
Speaker 1: your localities have introduced bands on carcass movement. Minnesota's done it, um,

1775
01:53:23,320 --> 01:53:25,920
Speaker 1: you know, Michigan's working on one. We've had some some

1776
01:53:26,080 --> 01:53:32,479
Speaker 1: carcass movement regulations. Processed meat and a clean skull cap,

1777
01:53:32,680 --> 01:53:37,320
Speaker 1: but but leave the rest behind type thing. And so

1778
01:53:37,600 --> 01:53:41,479
Speaker 1: that's a very real risk that has been dealt with

1779
01:53:41,720 --> 01:53:45,479
Speaker 1: by regulatory means. But regulations don't cure everything. We need

1780
01:53:45,640 --> 01:53:48,200
Speaker 1: education to go along with it. Because if you went

1781
01:53:48,280 --> 01:53:50,960
Speaker 1: to Colorado and or Wyoming and killed that big deer

1782
01:53:51,080 --> 01:53:53,880
Speaker 1: and brought at home, you might have not know that

1783
01:53:54,120 --> 01:53:56,720
Speaker 1: you were violating the law. So we have to have

1784
01:53:56,960 --> 01:54:00,320
Speaker 1: education to go along with it. And and and the

1785
01:54:00,439 --> 01:54:03,200
Speaker 1: answer is to that, if you know, if you're going

1786
01:54:03,320 --> 01:54:06,519
Speaker 1: to do that, make sure that those carcass parts don't

1787
01:54:06,760 --> 01:54:09,120
Speaker 1: end up out on the back forty, that they go

1788
01:54:09,280 --> 01:54:13,360
Speaker 1: to a landfill or end up underground where any infectious

1789
01:54:13,400 --> 01:54:17,560
Speaker 1: agent is not available to be picked up, ingested, or

1790
01:54:17,600 --> 01:54:21,280
Speaker 1: inhaled by another deer. So that one's easy if we

1791
01:54:21,520 --> 01:54:23,720
Speaker 1: know what we're doing and we pay attention to it.

1792
01:54:24,280 --> 01:54:30,200
Speaker 1: So the carcass movement bands um have have a place.

1793
01:54:30,960 --> 01:54:33,240
Speaker 1: But when we when we boil it down, is there

1794
01:54:33,280 --> 01:54:38,000
Speaker 1: a way to appropriately manage carcasses? The answer is yes,

1795
01:54:38,200 --> 01:54:41,480
Speaker 1: make sure it ends up underground. You know what's interesting

1796
01:54:41,520 --> 01:54:45,120
Speaker 1: about those bands is that it's never like Colorado saying

1797
01:54:45,600 --> 01:54:49,200
Speaker 1: don't export. Yeah, nobody hasn't. When you guys leave, leave

1798
01:54:49,200 --> 01:54:54,680
Speaker 1: all the bones and the skulls here. Don't bring from

1799
01:54:54,680 --> 01:54:59,760
Speaker 1: Colorado here, right, It's an important people have it like

1800
01:55:00,000 --> 01:55:03,200
Speaker 1: at that shot out of here. Well, I can remember

1801
01:55:03,640 --> 01:55:06,120
Speaker 1: my dad going out west hunting and they would bring

1802
01:55:06,640 --> 01:55:09,640
Speaker 1: the whole the mule, deer, the elk, whatever, you know.

1803
01:55:09,680 --> 01:55:11,520
Speaker 1: They packed them with ice and brought him back I remember,

1804
01:55:11,680 --> 01:55:14,040
Speaker 1: you know, butchering him at the facility here. Where did

1805
01:55:14,080 --> 01:55:15,880
Speaker 1: those bones end up in it? I used to be

1806
01:55:15,880 --> 01:55:18,000
Speaker 1: a little bit of a conspiracy theorist in this whole thing. Oh,

1807
01:55:18,080 --> 01:55:19,640
Speaker 1: there had to be some guys down there who brought

1808
01:55:19,680 --> 01:55:22,080
Speaker 1: in among those big monster bucks from someplace to improve

1809
01:55:22,120 --> 01:55:24,600
Speaker 1: their genetics. Well that sounds crazy, doesn't it. So they

1810
01:55:24,760 --> 01:55:27,120
Speaker 1: let it out down there and in the Mount Horribor area,

1811
01:55:27,200 --> 01:55:30,400
Speaker 1: and so it's yeah, well they don't shoot the deer

1812
01:55:30,440 --> 01:55:31,840
Speaker 1: with the tag and it's here, you know that kind

1813
01:55:31,880 --> 01:55:35,280
Speaker 1: of thing um or or it was a facility, there

1814
01:55:35,440 --> 01:55:38,960
Speaker 1: was something like that, And then it could have been innoculous,

1815
01:55:39,840 --> 01:55:42,920
Speaker 1: just just some old boy like my dad who you know,

1816
01:55:43,040 --> 01:55:45,320
Speaker 1: bringing is is and and that's what they did, you know,

1817
01:55:45,480 --> 01:55:46,840
Speaker 1: it's just what we did. I know a lot of

1818
01:55:46,880 --> 01:55:48,720
Speaker 1: people that would like to pin it on your dad.

1819
01:55:49,200 --> 01:55:54,760
Speaker 1: Well it's it's unlikely but that anyone individual. But if

1820
01:55:54,800 --> 01:55:58,080
Speaker 1: we're looking for theories about how disease got to a

1821
01:55:58,160 --> 01:56:02,000
Speaker 1: place like Wisconsin, nine hundred miles from the nearest infected

1822
01:56:02,080 --> 01:56:06,000
Speaker 1: area in the state of Colorado, we have those possible explanations.

1823
01:56:06,160 --> 01:56:08,560
Speaker 1: Was it dear to deer to deer it's not very

1824
01:56:08,680 --> 01:56:11,040
Speaker 1: likely that the deer from Colorado got up and walked

1825
01:56:11,080 --> 01:56:14,000
Speaker 1: across the Mississippi and came to Mount horrib to settle down.

1826
01:56:14,520 --> 01:56:17,160
Speaker 1: So then we start looking at the other possibilities. Could

1827
01:56:17,240 --> 01:56:20,480
Speaker 1: it have been human assisted movement, either of live deer

1828
01:56:21,000 --> 01:56:24,400
Speaker 1: to release out in that area. Yeah, it's possibility, pretty

1829
01:56:24,400 --> 01:56:26,640
Speaker 1: hard to prove at this point in time. Could it.

1830
01:56:26,920 --> 01:56:29,920
Speaker 1: Could it have been a hunter who inadvertently brought a

1831
01:56:30,040 --> 01:56:33,200
Speaker 1: positive back and you know, and carcass parts ended up

1832
01:56:33,200 --> 01:56:36,880
Speaker 1: out on the back. Forty Absolutely, that's possible. Could it

1833
01:56:37,000 --> 01:56:41,560
Speaker 1: have been other materials? Um, it's real interesting that that

1834
01:56:41,840 --> 01:56:46,120
Speaker 1: prions themselves, It turns out bind to some soil particles.

1835
01:56:47,000 --> 01:56:50,000
Speaker 1: They bind the clay particles much better than they do

1836
01:56:50,280 --> 01:56:54,320
Speaker 1: to sand particles. And and that's when we think about

1837
01:56:54,360 --> 01:56:57,600
Speaker 1: that deer who's shedding infectious agent out into the environment. Well,

1838
01:56:57,720 --> 01:56:59,760
Speaker 1: when it rains, it all out of wash away in

1839
01:57:00,040 --> 01:57:02,280
Speaker 1: to the into the river and will end up in

1840
01:57:02,320 --> 01:57:04,360
Speaker 1: the Mississippi. And it ought to be a problem down

1841
01:57:04,440 --> 01:57:07,360
Speaker 1: in the in the Gulf Delta, right, But it turns

1842
01:57:07,400 --> 01:57:10,400
Speaker 1: out the preons themselves can bind very tightly. They form

1843
01:57:10,440 --> 01:57:14,560
Speaker 1: a chemical bond with some soil particles. Which helps explain

1844
01:57:14,840 --> 01:57:18,000
Speaker 1: why they don't wash away and why they remain in

1845
01:57:18,120 --> 01:57:22,400
Speaker 1: the environment because they can be bound to soil particles

1846
01:57:24,000 --> 01:57:29,080
Speaker 1: the road like sand. Now from a from a disease standpoint,

1847
01:57:29,200 --> 01:57:32,040
Speaker 1: there's another part of that that it turns out when

1848
01:57:32,280 --> 01:57:37,840
Speaker 1: preon protein molecules are bound to clay particles, they are

1849
01:57:37,960 --> 01:57:43,320
Speaker 1: more infectious than they were on their own. It turns

1850
01:57:43,360 --> 01:57:48,600
Speaker 1: out that their infectivity is increased nearly seven hundred fold

1851
01:57:49,320 --> 01:57:55,400
Speaker 1: in that bound state. Okay, and we've seen where you know,

1852
01:57:55,440 --> 01:57:58,560
Speaker 1: a cow's stomach is a pretty harsh place, and you

1853
01:57:58,600 --> 01:58:01,400
Speaker 1: would think that if you put preons into a cow's

1854
01:58:01,440 --> 01:58:04,960
Speaker 1: stomach that's four chambered stomach, that it would degrade. And

1855
01:58:05,080 --> 01:58:08,240
Speaker 1: actually it does degrade. Preon is quite a bit. It

1856
01:58:08,440 --> 01:58:12,640
Speaker 1: lowers the tighter. But if these preons are bound to

1857
01:58:12,800 --> 01:58:17,760
Speaker 1: soil particles, it increases their infectivity. So maybe these soil

1858
01:58:17,840 --> 01:58:22,200
Speaker 1: particles help act as chaperones through the system to get

1859
01:58:22,400 --> 01:58:27,000
Speaker 1: in so they're bound tightly and they're more infectious. Now

1860
01:58:27,080 --> 01:58:32,040
Speaker 1: you've talked about the possibility of a bottle of urine. Okay.

1861
01:58:32,440 --> 01:58:37,280
Speaker 1: So urine is collected at captive deer facilities okay um

1862
01:58:37,480 --> 01:58:40,120
Speaker 1: or captive elk facilities where they have greats under the

1863
01:58:40,240 --> 01:58:43,120
Speaker 1: floor and the deer you know, urinate and so the

1864
01:58:43,520 --> 01:58:47,960
Speaker 1: it's it's collected up in theory, you know, process purified

1865
01:58:48,080 --> 01:58:52,120
Speaker 1: to some degree um and aggregated together, and then sooner

1866
01:58:52,240 --> 01:58:54,320
Speaker 1: or later it ends up on a sporting good shop

1867
01:58:54,600 --> 01:58:56,760
Speaker 1: or you can buy it online. Things like that. For

1868
01:58:56,880 --> 01:59:01,040
Speaker 1: a lure, you know, doan estrius. So there's currently a

1869
01:59:01,120 --> 01:59:05,800
Speaker 1: great debate going on and some states have taken proactive

1870
01:59:05,800 --> 01:59:09,400
Speaker 1: action and they've said, hey, don't use urine based lures

1871
01:59:09,440 --> 01:59:12,080
Speaker 1: in our states. Several states have done that because they

1872
01:59:12,280 --> 01:59:15,640
Speaker 1: identify that there is a risk, a small risk, but

1873
01:59:15,720 --> 01:59:18,880
Speaker 1: there is a risk. And if we've learned anything in Wisconsin,

1874
01:59:18,960 --> 01:59:21,280
Speaker 1: if you don't have c w D, now you want

1875
01:59:21,320 --> 01:59:23,680
Speaker 1: to keep it that way. And so other states have

1876
01:59:23,800 --> 01:59:27,480
Speaker 1: paid attention. They're putting in strong protective measures. Don't bring

1877
01:59:27,560 --> 01:59:31,040
Speaker 1: carcasses into my state, don't bring live deer into my state,

1878
01:59:31,480 --> 01:59:35,240
Speaker 1: and don't use urine based lures in my state. And

1879
01:59:35,360 --> 01:59:38,480
Speaker 1: that's a decision that a state makes on their own. Yeah,

1880
01:59:38,480 --> 01:59:40,560
Speaker 1: I mean, so a state, even if you just look

1881
01:59:40,560 --> 01:59:43,760
Speaker 1: at the state's function as like protecting you know, even

1882
01:59:43,800 --> 01:59:48,520
Speaker 1: from the most conservative thing, facilitating business you're protecting the

1883
01:59:48,600 --> 01:59:53,320
Speaker 1: deer hunting industry, protecting the bigger industry than the piss industry,

1884
01:59:53,600 --> 01:59:56,520
Speaker 1: and it's a much bigger industry than the captive deer industry.

1885
01:59:56,920 --> 02:00:01,400
Speaker 1: Wisconsin makes way more money selling deer license and having

1886
02:00:01,440 --> 02:00:04,440
Speaker 1: people hunt wild deer than they do being a than

1887
02:00:04,480 --> 02:00:07,680
Speaker 1: they do being a service for the captive deering. So

1888
02:00:08,440 --> 02:00:11,200
Speaker 1: science has shown pretty clearly that you know, a deer

1889
02:00:12,080 --> 02:00:15,240
Speaker 1: with c w D is shedding infectious agent in their urine,

1890
02:00:15,920 --> 02:00:20,160
Speaker 1: but it's pretty dilute, okay. So the argument is that

1891
02:00:20,440 --> 02:00:22,760
Speaker 1: if you have a bottle, you know, a one once

1892
02:00:22,840 --> 02:00:27,600
Speaker 1: bottle of deer urine, it's not enough. Even if it

1893
02:00:27,880 --> 02:00:31,800
Speaker 1: did have CWD preons in it, it's likely not enough

1894
02:00:32,600 --> 02:00:36,680
Speaker 1: to transmit disease. That okay opinion from the industry or

1895
02:00:36,720 --> 02:00:42,480
Speaker 1: from science. By it it's promoted by it's promoted. That's

1896
02:00:42,720 --> 02:00:46,080
Speaker 1: that's promoted by the industry right now. Um, that the

1897
02:00:46,240 --> 02:00:51,520
Speaker 1: bottle of urine has it's it's negligible risk, okay. But

1898
02:00:51,680 --> 02:00:54,520
Speaker 1: one of the things, So we just talked about what

1899
02:00:54,760 --> 02:00:59,160
Speaker 1: happens to a preon protein when it binds to soil particles,

1900
02:00:59,600 --> 02:01:02,680
Speaker 1: and that really hasn't been entered into the equation. So

1901
02:01:02,840 --> 02:01:05,640
Speaker 1: how do people use dealer? I mean, some of them

1902
02:01:05,720 --> 02:01:08,240
Speaker 1: are gonna squirt it into cotton balls in the top

1903
02:01:08,280 --> 02:01:11,920
Speaker 1: of an old thirty five millimiter film cam canister case,

1904
02:01:12,480 --> 02:01:14,640
Speaker 1: hang it from a branch of a of a tree.

1905
02:01:15,600 --> 02:01:18,360
Speaker 1: Others are gonna spray it all over, either a mock

1906
02:01:18,560 --> 02:01:22,800
Speaker 1: or a real scrape, which is kind of a deer magnet,

1907
02:01:23,040 --> 02:01:25,960
Speaker 1: so lots of animals come there. So now, let's just

1908
02:01:26,160 --> 02:01:30,400
Speaker 1: suppose that a bottle of urine did have preons in it,

1909
02:01:30,520 --> 02:01:33,440
Speaker 1: which wasn't enough if we squirted into deer's mouth, it

1910
02:01:33,440 --> 02:01:35,840
Speaker 1: wouldn't be enough to give that dear c w D.

1911
02:01:36,600 --> 02:01:39,280
Speaker 1: But now we're squirting it on the ground where those

1912
02:01:39,360 --> 02:01:44,280
Speaker 1: prens might bind to soil particles, and a deer might

1913
02:01:45,120 --> 02:01:48,760
Speaker 1: lick that soil and ingest that preon protein that's now

1914
02:01:48,920 --> 02:01:56,240
Speaker 1: bound to clay particles. The the infectivities. I think the

1915
02:01:56,280 --> 02:02:00,040
Speaker 1: paper says SI I was rounding to seven hundred, So

1916
02:02:00,200 --> 02:02:03,920
Speaker 1: that hasn't been entered into into the equation yet. Is

1917
02:02:04,080 --> 02:02:08,320
Speaker 1: that enough? I don't know. I can't honestly, I can't

1918
02:02:08,360 --> 02:02:11,000
Speaker 1: answer that question. Is that enough of an increase in

1919
02:02:11,080 --> 02:02:15,400
Speaker 1: concentration where that bottle of urine constitutes a risk. I

1920
02:02:15,520 --> 02:02:18,640
Speaker 1: can't answer that question, but a question I can answer

1921
02:02:19,240 --> 02:02:24,320
Speaker 1: that if you are a state agency whose responsibility is

1922
02:02:24,400 --> 02:02:27,400
Speaker 1: to look out for the welfare of that dear resource

1923
02:02:27,480 --> 02:02:30,760
Speaker 1: for current and future generations of people in your state,

1924
02:02:31,240 --> 02:02:34,160
Speaker 1: if you've seen the impacts of c w D and

1925
02:02:34,320 --> 02:02:36,240
Speaker 1: you believe you don't have it, and you want to

1926
02:02:36,280 --> 02:02:39,080
Speaker 1: do everything you can to keep c w D out

1927
02:02:39,120 --> 02:02:42,680
Speaker 1: of your state, is it a reasonable thing for that

1928
02:02:42,920 --> 02:02:47,240
Speaker 1: state to promulgate rules to say, hey, we'd prefer if

1929
02:02:47,280 --> 02:02:50,320
Speaker 1: you didn't use urine based lures in your in our state.

1930
02:02:51,240 --> 02:02:54,879
Speaker 1: I think it's very reasonable that a state making that decision,

1931
02:02:54,960 --> 02:02:58,440
Speaker 1: they've looked at the information, they're making a calculated decision

1932
02:02:58,560 --> 02:03:01,960
Speaker 1: on the level of risk they're willing to incur on

1933
02:03:02,120 --> 02:03:05,360
Speaker 1: behalf of the people of their state. How can you

1934
02:03:05,480 --> 02:03:08,800
Speaker 1: argue with that? And if and if an overwhelming body

1935
02:03:08,880 --> 02:03:12,200
Speaker 1: of evidence were to emerge that contradicts that they could

1936
02:03:12,240 --> 02:03:17,360
Speaker 1: walk back lift the band? Aren't there a synthetic based

1937
02:03:17,440 --> 02:03:21,320
Speaker 1: lures that that people use? And I don't know. I don't.

1938
02:03:21,640 --> 02:03:23,440
Speaker 1: I gave up on that stuff. I figure if I

1939
02:03:23,520 --> 02:03:25,560
Speaker 1: can't sitting in a tree stand, if I can't have

1940
02:03:25,680 --> 02:03:28,000
Speaker 1: a deer walk up close to me. You know, probably

1941
02:03:28,040 --> 02:03:31,000
Speaker 1: having lures isn't the way I want to go. Well,

1942
02:03:31,080 --> 02:03:32,760
Speaker 1: folks will try all a man or stuff. All you

1943
02:03:32,800 --> 02:03:36,200
Speaker 1: have to do concluding thoughts, I are just smoking cigarettes

1944
02:03:36,200 --> 02:03:39,840
Speaker 1: something your stand brings him in. Well, I know that. Well,

1945
02:03:40,440 --> 02:03:47,440
Speaker 1: Doug Buckman during um there's special has special properties of

1946
02:03:47,480 --> 02:03:54,560
Speaker 1: his own urine, which is very enticing to dear yawn scrape. Yes, photo,

1947
02:03:55,000 --> 02:03:58,600
Speaker 1: he's a lot of photo documentary evidence that the dog

1948
02:03:58,680 --> 02:04:02,360
Speaker 1: buck Man urine is the most potent lure. But I

1949
02:04:02,400 --> 02:04:03,920
Speaker 1: don't know, I want I'd have to test your ear

1950
02:04:03,960 --> 02:04:10,000
Speaker 1: and make sure it's not positive. Yeah, yeah, he was

1951
02:04:10,560 --> 02:04:13,360
Speaker 1: actually been sending a urin around from the c w

1952
02:04:13,560 --> 02:04:19,840
Speaker 1: D area. You gotta concluding thought, I've I've got I've

1953
02:04:19,880 --> 02:04:22,560
Speaker 1: got a few. If you humor me, give me a

1954
02:04:22,640 --> 02:04:25,040
Speaker 1: couple of minutes here, because it's kind of boiled down.

1955
02:04:25,120 --> 02:04:27,000
Speaker 1: I get asked all the time, what can I do?

1956
02:04:27,800 --> 02:04:31,040
Speaker 1: What can people do about CWD? And people and individual

1957
02:04:31,160 --> 02:04:34,640
Speaker 1: hunters can't cure c w D. They're not gonna create

1958
02:04:34,720 --> 02:04:39,600
Speaker 1: the vaccine things like that, so but what can people do? Well,

1959
02:04:39,680 --> 02:04:41,800
Speaker 1: one of the things I think is really important is

1960
02:04:41,880 --> 02:04:45,720
Speaker 1: to be knowledgeable about really what CWD is. It's things

1961
02:04:45,800 --> 02:04:48,200
Speaker 1: that we've talked about today. Now, if you go to

1962
02:04:48,560 --> 02:04:51,320
Speaker 1: some sportsmen's clubs, or go to hunting camps, or go

1963
02:04:51,440 --> 02:04:54,840
Speaker 1: to a tavern and you get into a conversation about CWD,

1964
02:04:55,040 --> 02:04:57,680
Speaker 1: you'll hear some things about CWD. They'll make you scratch

1965
02:04:57,760 --> 02:05:04,040
Speaker 1: your head. Could really and and so alternative points of

1966
02:05:04,120 --> 02:05:07,720
Speaker 1: view are out there. There's places on the on the

1967
02:05:07,800 --> 02:05:10,920
Speaker 1: Worldwide Web that you know, if you tripped looked up

1968
02:05:11,000 --> 02:05:14,400
Speaker 1: facts about CWD or the truth about CWD, you might

1969
02:05:14,480 --> 02:05:16,920
Speaker 1: hear some things that are vastly different than what we've

1970
02:05:16,960 --> 02:05:21,320
Speaker 1: heard today. A good Google uh tip is never type

1971
02:05:21,360 --> 02:05:26,080
Speaker 1: in the truth about the truth about X. It's a

1972
02:05:26,160 --> 02:05:28,880
Speaker 1: good way to get the not truth. Ye. I think

1973
02:05:28,920 --> 02:05:32,440
Speaker 1: it's really important if people have a better understanding of

1974
02:05:32,560 --> 02:05:35,080
Speaker 1: what c w D is, what the risks are, what

1975
02:05:35,200 --> 02:05:38,000
Speaker 1: the potential outcomes down the road are. That they'll care

1976
02:05:38,040 --> 02:05:40,920
Speaker 1: about c w D, but they need to learn about it.

1977
02:05:41,000 --> 02:05:44,280
Speaker 1: They need to get accurate information. So if you're gonna Google,

1978
02:05:44,880 --> 02:05:48,560
Speaker 1: go to scholar dot Google dot com and enter in

1979
02:05:48,680 --> 02:05:52,240
Speaker 1: c w D and pre on disease, and there you'll

1980
02:05:52,280 --> 02:05:55,320
Speaker 1: get you'll get all your links will be peer reviewed

1981
02:05:55,640 --> 02:05:59,560
Speaker 1: scientific publications so learn about c w D and and

1982
02:06:00,080 --> 02:06:02,400
Speaker 1: us CWT kind of the way we're doing here today.

1983
02:06:02,400 --> 02:06:06,240
Speaker 1: I think that's really really important. Another thing is obviously

1984
02:06:06,320 --> 02:06:08,880
Speaker 1: going to be working with government. If you don't like

1985
02:06:09,160 --> 02:06:11,560
Speaker 1: what you see, if you don't like the fact that

1986
02:06:12,000 --> 02:06:15,440
Speaker 1: you know, captive servant operations with c w D are

1987
02:06:15,520 --> 02:06:19,040
Speaker 1: still out there on the landscape, haven't been depopulated, work

1988
02:06:19,120 --> 02:06:21,760
Speaker 1: with government. If you don't like the way your natural

1989
02:06:21,800 --> 02:06:25,800
Speaker 1: resource agency is responding to c w D, work with government.

1990
02:06:26,200 --> 02:06:28,520
Speaker 1: It's not gonna do much good to sit in hunting

1991
02:06:28,640 --> 02:06:31,360
Speaker 1: camp and, you know, gripe about the d n R.

1992
02:06:31,840 --> 02:06:34,640
Speaker 1: That's it's really not effective. It might be fun, it

1993
02:06:34,720 --> 02:06:37,600
Speaker 1: might be entertaining, but it's really not effective. So work

1994
02:06:37,680 --> 02:06:41,520
Speaker 1: with government at the appropriate levels and recognize and engage

1995
02:06:41,600 --> 02:06:45,640
Speaker 1: and recognize that the d NR is has you know,

1996
02:06:45,840 --> 02:06:49,440
Speaker 1: Natural Resource Agency and Agricultural Agency are working with a

1997
02:06:49,520 --> 02:06:53,800
Speaker 1: set of laws created by legislators, and so quite often

1998
02:06:54,360 --> 02:06:56,800
Speaker 1: the d n R is not the appropriate level. If

1999
02:06:56,840 --> 02:06:59,360
Speaker 1: you want to seek change, you're gonna have to talk

2000
02:06:59,400 --> 02:07:05,120
Speaker 1: to the just is. He's talks a lot about people

2001
02:07:05,640 --> 02:07:10,440
Speaker 1: who are blaming the d n R, blaming the State

2002
02:07:10,520 --> 02:07:13,120
Speaker 1: Fish and Game Agency for things that are coming from

2003
02:07:13,120 --> 02:07:16,320
Speaker 1: the legislature, right, the DNR has to work within the

2004
02:07:16,720 --> 02:07:20,360
Speaker 1: statutory guidelines provided by the legislation and those people are

2005
02:07:21,280 --> 02:07:26,760
Speaker 1: voted in and they are responsible to uh to their constituents.

2006
02:07:27,360 --> 02:07:30,000
Speaker 1: So working with government is a big one. Another way

2007
02:07:30,040 --> 02:07:33,880
Speaker 1: of working with government, though, is is promoting surveillance. You know,

2008
02:07:33,960 --> 02:07:37,640
Speaker 1: we've seen in in state after state there's fewer dollars

2009
02:07:37,720 --> 02:07:41,840
Speaker 1: available for surveillance. So the Wisconsin d n R has

2010
02:07:41,880 --> 02:07:45,560
Speaker 1: surveillance has gone down. Many other states surveillance has gone

2011
02:07:45,600 --> 02:07:47,800
Speaker 1: down because they don't have the money to do it.

2012
02:07:48,520 --> 02:07:51,160
Speaker 1: So the only way we learn more about distribution and

2013
02:07:51,240 --> 02:07:54,640
Speaker 1: prevalence is CWD is to do surveillance. So that's another

2014
02:07:54,720 --> 02:07:57,120
Speaker 1: way you can have an impact by talking to government.

2015
02:07:57,600 --> 02:08:02,520
Speaker 1: Another one's promoting research things, you know, epidemiological research, learning

2016
02:08:02,520 --> 02:08:05,400
Speaker 1: about how disease moves, learning about more about the risk

2017
02:08:05,480 --> 02:08:08,480
Speaker 1: to humans, learning about the risk to domestic livestock, learning

2018
02:08:08,480 --> 02:08:11,960
Speaker 1: about the possibilities of vaccines. We do that through research,

2019
02:08:12,040 --> 02:08:15,320
Speaker 1: and the amount of money available for for disease research

2020
02:08:15,640 --> 02:08:18,720
Speaker 1: has diminished greatly over time. So there's places where you

2021
02:08:18,800 --> 02:08:22,280
Speaker 1: can work with government. But now even more what can

2022
02:08:22,320 --> 02:08:24,400
Speaker 1: a hunter do well? We talked about it you can

2023
02:08:24,480 --> 02:08:27,160
Speaker 1: hunt deer. You know, they say, I believe that. You know,

2024
02:08:27,280 --> 02:08:30,480
Speaker 1: taking deer offul landscape, reducing densities is good from a

2025
02:08:30,560 --> 02:08:35,520
Speaker 1: whole host of reasons. In addition to disease management. If

2026
02:08:35,600 --> 02:08:39,560
Speaker 1: you feed and bait, those are probably not good things.

2027
02:08:40,160 --> 02:08:45,080
Speaker 1: Those could be considered risk factors. So the analogy they're

2028
02:08:45,280 --> 02:08:47,680
Speaker 1: a great one is if you have young kids and

2029
02:08:47,800 --> 02:08:50,160
Speaker 1: you put them in daycare. If all the kids in

2030
02:08:50,280 --> 02:08:53,280
Speaker 1: daycare were healthy, daycare would be healthy and your kid

2031
02:08:53,360 --> 02:08:55,600
Speaker 1: would never come home and give you some illness that

2032
02:08:55,720 --> 02:08:58,680
Speaker 1: you didn't want. But that's not the reality. So one

2033
02:08:59,000 --> 02:09:01,800
Speaker 1: little kid will go into take care with the cold

2034
02:09:01,960 --> 02:09:04,800
Speaker 1: or the flu, spread it around to everybody else, and

2035
02:09:04,840 --> 02:09:08,440
Speaker 1: then those children go home to their respective families. So

2036
02:09:08,560 --> 02:09:10,720
Speaker 1: now let's move that into the deer world, where if

2037
02:09:10,720 --> 02:09:13,720
Speaker 1: you're baiting out there on the landscape, you're putting corn

2038
02:09:13,840 --> 02:09:16,520
Speaker 1: or some other attractant out there. If all the deer

2039
02:09:16,560 --> 02:09:19,840
Speaker 1: are perfectly healthy, it's not a bad idea, right, Okay,

2040
02:09:19,960 --> 02:09:23,320
Speaker 1: there's no risk of disease transmission. But now let's put

2041
02:09:23,360 --> 02:09:26,520
Speaker 1: a little bovine tuberculosis in the system. Let's put a

2042
02:09:26,600 --> 02:09:29,680
Speaker 1: little bit of chronic wasting disease into the system. And

2043
02:09:29,800 --> 02:09:32,600
Speaker 1: now if we have one sick animal coming into that

2044
02:09:32,760 --> 02:09:37,200
Speaker 1: pile of bait or that attractant, there, they shed infectious

2045
02:09:37,280 --> 02:09:43,360
Speaker 1: agent into that bait, changing saliva and breath exactly. So

2046
02:09:43,680 --> 02:09:47,600
Speaker 1: multiple animals are coming in, so it elevates the risk

2047
02:09:47,680 --> 02:09:51,760
Speaker 1: of disease transmission. So feeding and baiting, anything that artificially

2048
02:09:51,840 --> 02:09:58,839
Speaker 1: congregates animals in association with disease enhances their risk. Carcass management,

2049
02:09:59,040 --> 02:10:01,320
Speaker 1: there's a big one we talked about. So if you're

2050
02:10:01,320 --> 02:10:03,720
Speaker 1: gonna go hunting in you know, if I'm gonna go

2051
02:10:03,840 --> 02:10:06,960
Speaker 1: hunting in in Iowa County, Wisconsin, and I live in

2052
02:10:07,440 --> 02:10:10,280
Speaker 1: northern Wisconsin, or I live in Michigan or Minnesota, if

2053
02:10:10,320 --> 02:10:13,040
Speaker 1: I can get it across the border, if I butcher

2054
02:10:13,120 --> 02:10:16,840
Speaker 1: that animal myself, make sure that the carcass parts end

2055
02:10:16,960 --> 02:10:19,520
Speaker 1: up not in reach of a deer, not on the

2056
02:10:19,600 --> 02:10:23,240
Speaker 1: back forty preferably at a landfill. That's a solid thing

2057
02:10:23,280 --> 02:10:26,120
Speaker 1: that hunters can do to help reduce the chance of

2058
02:10:26,160 --> 02:10:30,440
Speaker 1: of CWD loving bearing on your own how deep uh,

2059
02:10:30,520 --> 02:10:32,880
Speaker 1: probably deep enough where a raccoon is not going to

2060
02:10:32,960 --> 02:10:35,000
Speaker 1: dig it up and expose it back back to the

2061
02:10:35,160 --> 02:10:38,320
Speaker 1: deer um. Now, some people might might go, oh, you

2062
02:10:38,360 --> 02:10:41,200
Speaker 1: shouldn't have said that something like that, because there is

2063
02:10:41,880 --> 02:10:45,400
Speaker 1: obviously always a chance that effluent would percolate down get

2064
02:10:45,440 --> 02:10:49,879
Speaker 1: into groundwater. But that mantra back from the seventies dilution

2065
02:10:50,000 --> 02:10:54,640
Speaker 1: is the solution to pollution probably applies here. That getting

2066
02:10:54,760 --> 02:10:59,120
Speaker 1: those carcass materials out of where they are a bile

2067
02:10:59,200 --> 02:11:04,400
Speaker 1: available to healthy, naive, susceptible deer. That's what's key. Um,

2068
02:11:05,080 --> 02:11:06,680
Speaker 1: if you wanted to get technical, if you want to,

2069
02:11:06,720 --> 02:11:08,680
Speaker 1: if you really want to stop pre on movement, you

2070
02:11:08,800 --> 02:11:12,879
Speaker 1: go to a landfill that uses a clay liner system. Remember,

2071
02:11:13,000 --> 02:11:16,120
Speaker 1: clay binds pre on particles. What turns out, if you

2072
02:11:16,200 --> 02:11:19,320
Speaker 1: put a clay liner under a landfill, you will stop

2073
02:11:19,440 --> 02:11:21,879
Speaker 1: pre on movements so it won't go into the effluent

2074
02:11:22,000 --> 02:11:25,920
Speaker 1: that then gets discharged out onto the farmer's fields. Okay,

2075
02:11:26,280 --> 02:11:29,560
Speaker 1: so there's there's science behind that. I think the last

2076
02:11:29,600 --> 02:11:32,280
Speaker 1: thing that people can do to learn more about is if,

2077
02:11:32,520 --> 02:11:34,640
Speaker 1: especially if you hunt in an area where c w

2078
02:11:34,840 --> 02:11:37,760
Speaker 1: D is, get your carcasses tested. I mean, that's in

2079
02:11:37,960 --> 02:11:40,960
Speaker 1: line with recommendations coming from the World Health Organization in

2080
02:11:41,040 --> 02:11:43,920
Speaker 1: the Centers for Disease Control or the surrounding area YEP.

2081
02:11:44,200 --> 02:11:47,320
Speaker 1: If you're if you're close to disease, consider having your

2082
02:11:47,360 --> 02:11:49,600
Speaker 1: deer tested. Now, I'm not going to tell you not

2083
02:11:49,760 --> 02:11:52,440
Speaker 1: to eat it. That's your personal decision based on your

2084
02:11:52,480 --> 02:11:56,040
Speaker 1: own capacity to tolerate risk. But you've learned about c

2085
02:11:56,320 --> 02:11:59,040
Speaker 1: w D, you're doing your best not to contribute to

2086
02:11:59,120 --> 02:12:02,120
Speaker 1: movement of CEDA be a D. Getting that dear tested

2087
02:12:02,200 --> 02:12:04,840
Speaker 1: makes a makes a you know, kind of common sense.

2088
02:12:05,680 --> 02:12:07,760
Speaker 1: So so those are the kinds of things like I say,

2089
02:12:07,800 --> 02:12:10,400
Speaker 1: when I walk into an audience and people say, well,

2090
02:12:10,480 --> 02:12:12,280
Speaker 1: what can we do? That's what I always try and

2091
02:12:12,360 --> 02:12:15,200
Speaker 1: close with, here's the concrete things you can do. You

2092
02:12:15,320 --> 02:12:18,800
Speaker 1: can't fix it, but you can help. That's good stuff, man.

2093
02:12:19,120 --> 02:12:21,600
Speaker 1: And for most people to test it, it's their UM,

2094
02:12:22,040 --> 02:12:24,920
Speaker 1: local Game and Fish or Department Natural Resource. Talk to

2095
02:12:24,960 --> 02:12:29,080
Speaker 1: your natural resource the agency UM if they are not

2096
02:12:29,280 --> 02:12:32,120
Speaker 1: able to accommodate it, and I believe most can, but

2097
02:12:32,240 --> 02:12:35,400
Speaker 1: if they're not, you could talk to a veterinarian. You know,

2098
02:12:35,480 --> 02:12:38,960
Speaker 1: a local veterinarian who has the ability to collect this

2099
02:12:39,080 --> 02:12:42,560
Speaker 1: tissue samples for a hunter and then submit them to

2100
02:12:42,680 --> 02:12:46,960
Speaker 1: a state diagnostic laboratory. So it's it's doable any place

2101
02:12:47,240 --> 02:12:48,720
Speaker 1: here in the Cheese State. What do you guys call

2102
02:12:48,760 --> 02:12:51,960
Speaker 1: this state Wisconsin? Yeah? I mean you know, I was

2103
02:12:52,000 --> 02:12:53,720
Speaker 1: trying to be like a bad writer who uses like

2104
02:12:53,760 --> 02:12:56,400
Speaker 1: little synonyms here and there. So let's just this one

2105
02:12:56,520 --> 02:13:01,440
Speaker 1: year old crooner like that kind of line, uh Wisconsin. Yeah.

2106
02:13:01,520 --> 02:13:11,200
Speaker 1: But what is this? Help me out? Man? Here in

2107
02:13:11,200 --> 02:13:15,840
Speaker 1: America's dairy land. Uh, it's free. Yeah, And I would

2108
02:13:15,880 --> 02:13:19,480
Speaker 1: say this I know in our area. UM over at

2109
02:13:19,560 --> 02:13:21,880
Speaker 1: rock Bridge, at the rock Bridge Store, an old and

2110
02:13:21,920 --> 02:13:26,160
Speaker 1: dear friend of mine, Sharon Miller UH is one of

2111
02:13:26,200 --> 02:13:29,560
Speaker 1: the testing UH facilities, and her son has gone through

2112
02:13:29,600 --> 02:13:31,760
Speaker 1: the training and takes out the lymph notes and does

2113
02:13:31,800 --> 02:13:33,720
Speaker 1: all that work. It's real simple. You can just drop

2114
02:13:33,800 --> 02:13:35,720
Speaker 1: the head off obviously. I you've got a big old

2115
02:13:35,760 --> 02:13:37,400
Speaker 1: monster buck and stuff that you're gonna want to get

2116
02:13:37,480 --> 02:13:39,800
Speaker 1: mount takes. But they'll they'll work with you on that.

2117
02:13:40,040 --> 02:13:44,400
Speaker 1: And then, UM, so that's on this side of the county,

2118
02:13:44,480 --> 02:13:45,920
Speaker 1: or it's in just a few miles this way, but

2119
02:13:46,000 --> 02:13:48,200
Speaker 1: then a few miles the other way over in Sauk

2120
02:13:48,280 --> 02:13:50,400
Speaker 1: County in Bear Valley, which is one of the high

2121
02:13:50,440 --> 02:13:54,080
Speaker 1: prevalence areas. UH A live look taxidermy over there. Bill

2122
02:13:54,640 --> 02:13:56,160
Speaker 1: you can't think of Bill's last name right now, but

2123
02:13:56,240 --> 02:14:01,080
Speaker 1: he mounted the standard. Um he also uh is a

2124
02:14:02,480 --> 02:14:06,080
Speaker 1: testing for not a testing facility, but a drop off facility,

2125
02:14:06,520 --> 02:14:08,560
Speaker 1: and they too will take out the limp nodes and

2126
02:14:08,600 --> 02:14:12,600
Speaker 1: do that whole thing. Yeah, bring the whole damn head down,

2127
02:14:12,680 --> 02:14:17,080
Speaker 1: fill out a piece of paper, and then it's your

2128
02:14:17,280 --> 02:14:21,680
Speaker 1: Your results were sent uh sent to you. So I'll

2129
02:14:21,720 --> 02:14:25,040
Speaker 1: give my concluding thought. How's that hit it? Man? Uh?

2130
02:14:26,680 --> 02:14:30,400
Speaker 1: I feel better uh listening to you today, and I

2131
02:14:30,520 --> 02:14:32,480
Speaker 1: thank very thank you very much for that. I mean,

2132
02:14:32,520 --> 02:14:34,800
Speaker 1: I feel like I've I've been spending a lot of

2133
02:14:34,880 --> 02:14:38,680
Speaker 1: time learning about it, uh as much as I can.

2134
02:14:38,800 --> 02:14:41,960
Speaker 1: And then there is a lot of misinformation and uh,

2135
02:14:43,960 --> 02:14:49,080
Speaker 1: but most of what I have read you um explained

2136
02:14:49,120 --> 02:14:51,320
Speaker 1: today and some of the ways that I didn't quite

2137
02:14:51,600 --> 02:14:54,160
Speaker 1: get it and then boiling it down, which I think

2138
02:14:54,240 --> 02:14:57,400
Speaker 1: is so important. Uh. And so this has been a

2139
02:14:57,440 --> 02:15:00,880
Speaker 1: really important discussion for me. And like you're an Oak,

2140
02:15:01,120 --> 02:15:02,600
Speaker 1: that you're an Oak guy, if that makes a big

2141
02:15:02,680 --> 02:15:05,400
Speaker 1: difference too. So I saw Doug lose a big bet

2142
02:15:05,520 --> 02:15:09,200
Speaker 1: on Oaks one time. That was true, but I'm not

2143
02:15:09,320 --> 02:15:13,520
Speaker 1: sure about the person who decided. I'm still not happy

2144
02:15:13,600 --> 02:15:21,280
Speaker 1: with how we decided that. Um. Yes, it's ten years ago.

2145
02:15:21,560 --> 02:15:25,520
Speaker 1: I need to hear this. How many there's an oak

2146
02:15:25,560 --> 02:15:27,360
Speaker 1: tree drop, you know, it's one of those that was

2147
02:15:27,440 --> 02:15:32,880
Speaker 1: one of those. Uh so, and I think you gave

2148
02:15:33,160 --> 02:15:37,760
Speaker 1: you reinforced much of what I'm trying to promote. One

2149
02:15:37,800 --> 02:15:39,480
Speaker 1: of the things I did want to clarify though, it

2150
02:15:39,720 --> 02:15:43,960
Speaker 1: in the state of Wisconsin that the Department of Natural Resources, Yes,

2151
02:15:44,840 --> 02:15:49,480
Speaker 1: enacts with the legislature. Uh. In most cases, legislature tells

2152
02:15:49,520 --> 02:15:54,320
Speaker 1: them to UM. But deer farms are under the purview

2153
02:15:54,600 --> 02:15:58,560
Speaker 1: of the Department Department of Agriculture, Trade, and Consumer Protection.

2154
02:15:58,760 --> 02:16:01,880
Speaker 1: It's farming, not It's a common problem. Yeah, and that's

2155
02:16:02,080 --> 02:16:06,120
Speaker 1: those two things are very ins two agencies are seemed

2156
02:16:06,120 --> 02:16:09,040
Speaker 1: to be very different and in it it the relationship

2157
02:16:09,200 --> 02:16:11,720
Speaker 1: varies depending on what state you're in. In some states,

2158
02:16:11,760 --> 02:16:14,760
Speaker 1: the Agriculture and the Natural Resource Agency work very very

2159
02:16:14,840 --> 02:16:18,000
Speaker 1: closely together, and in others they don't work so closely together.

2160
02:16:18,200 --> 02:16:21,320
Speaker 1: And in other states they have diametrically opposed opinions about

2161
02:16:21,480 --> 02:16:25,880
Speaker 1: you know, how management should do. So Yeah, yeah, there's

2162
02:16:25,960 --> 02:16:29,640
Speaker 1: multiple um. Some states, Uh, management of the captive industry

2163
02:16:29,720 --> 02:16:33,560
Speaker 1: is under the Natural Resource Agency. Uh, there's it's under agriculture.

2164
02:16:33,600 --> 02:16:37,800
Speaker 1: It just depends on where you go. Man. Well, anyway,

2165
02:16:37,879 --> 02:16:40,360
Speaker 1: thank you very much. This is yeah, fabulous for you guys.

2166
02:16:40,400 --> 02:16:44,880
Speaker 1: Are welcome. This was enjoyable. Um my concluder, Brian, thank

2167
02:16:44,920 --> 02:16:51,480
Speaker 1: you for like, uh being a federal researcher. Man. Uh,

2168
02:16:52,200 --> 02:16:55,040
Speaker 1: there have been better times to be a federal scientist

2169
02:16:55,160 --> 02:16:57,280
Speaker 1: than to bring it back. We're gonna bring it back

2170
02:16:57,480 --> 02:16:59,959
Speaker 1: to where it's like where you guys get the credit

2171
02:17:00,000 --> 02:17:03,800
Speaker 1: you deserve. It's intriguing because you're able to look at stuff.

2172
02:17:04,280 --> 02:17:08,560
Speaker 1: You're able to look at stuff and look at problems

2173
02:17:08,800 --> 02:17:12,080
Speaker 1: that were gonna be facing down the road, and oftentimes

2174
02:17:13,280 --> 02:17:19,520
Speaker 1: private industry just isn't on their radar yet. And you

2175
02:17:19,640 --> 02:17:23,040
Speaker 1: need to have some people who are able to exercise

2176
02:17:23,080 --> 02:17:26,680
Speaker 1: a level of curiosity and look out at what might

2177
02:17:26,760 --> 02:17:29,959
Speaker 1: be coming down the road and have the funding necessary

2178
02:17:30,000 --> 02:17:32,320
Speaker 1: to do so, to to fill in some of the

2179
02:17:32,400 --> 02:17:33,920
Speaker 1: blanks for us and give it us a sense of

2180
02:17:33,959 --> 02:17:38,039
Speaker 1: what's coming. Because it's just we would still be nowhere

2181
02:17:38,160 --> 02:17:40,720
Speaker 1: on this if we were relying on private industry. Who

2182
02:17:40,800 --> 02:17:43,400
Speaker 1: the hell is gonna put money into this? Well, go

2183
02:17:43,520 --> 02:17:47,760
Speaker 1: back to the case of plague in prairie dogs and

2184
02:17:47,920 --> 02:17:52,480
Speaker 1: blackfooted ferrets. It took over a decade to develop a

2185
02:17:52,560 --> 02:17:55,760
Speaker 1: vaccine candidate and to be able to then create an

2186
02:17:55,879 --> 02:18:00,200
Speaker 1: oral formulation in order to solve an endangered species problem. Them.

2187
02:18:00,720 --> 02:18:05,720
Speaker 1: Where is the incentive outside of government research facilities to

2188
02:18:05,840 --> 02:18:09,360
Speaker 1: have the wherewithal and the capability to be able to

2189
02:18:09,440 --> 02:18:12,040
Speaker 1: do that and the patients to be able to do it.

2190
02:18:12,160 --> 02:18:15,280
Speaker 1: There is no place else. So there's value. I believe

2191
02:18:15,320 --> 02:18:20,360
Speaker 1: there's definitely value, UM, and success stories are not that common,

2192
02:18:20,560 --> 02:18:23,560
Speaker 1: but you have to work on these problems. UM. If

2193
02:18:23,600 --> 02:18:27,400
Speaker 1: we value our natural resources in our wildlife, we're posed

2194
02:18:27,440 --> 02:18:32,280
Speaker 1: today with more diseases than ever before. UM. Emerging infectious

2195
02:18:32,360 --> 02:18:36,200
Speaker 1: diseases are are rampant out there on the landscape, and

2196
02:18:36,280 --> 02:18:38,520
Speaker 1: if we don't learn about them more, we don't we

2197
02:18:38,600 --> 02:18:40,920
Speaker 1: will not learn about those diseases, we will not learn

2198
02:18:40,959 --> 02:18:44,640
Speaker 1: about what caused those diseases, and we will not maybe

2199
02:18:44,720 --> 02:18:48,600
Speaker 1: most importantly, learn how to effectively deal with, to mitigate

2200
02:18:48,760 --> 02:18:52,280
Speaker 1: or manage those diseases. So I appreciate the UH. I

2201
02:18:52,320 --> 02:18:56,160
Speaker 1: appreciate the compliment. Yeah, Well, UM, I feel you know,

2202
02:18:56,320 --> 02:18:58,680
Speaker 1: I'm I'm indebted to you and and for for the

2203
02:18:58,760 --> 02:19:02,400
Speaker 1: lifestyle I have in the natural resources I enjoy. UM.

2204
02:19:02,560 --> 02:19:07,000
Speaker 1: I feel indebted to people like you and generations past

2205
02:19:07,120 --> 02:19:10,520
Speaker 1: who committed themselves to a professional occupation of you know,

2206
02:19:10,760 --> 02:19:17,080
Speaker 1: working on natural resources. It's enjoyable. Thank you, Thanks for

2207
02:19:17,160 --> 02:19:21,160
Speaker 1: joining us. You're welcome. I appreciate the opportunity. And Dog,

2208
02:19:21,240 --> 02:19:25,480
Speaker 1: thanks for wholesness at your house, manure family, even if

2209
02:19:25,520 --> 02:19:28,320
Speaker 1: this might be the last time the family farmers, even

2210
02:19:28,360 --> 02:19:30,280
Speaker 1: though I just met a new person to day. Where

2211
02:19:30,280 --> 02:19:33,240
Speaker 1: I'm gonna start hanging out instead of Doug's place. It's

2212
02:19:33,320 --> 02:19:35,520
Speaker 1: just down the road door, so we're gonna stop body easier.

2213
02:19:35,920 --> 02:19:38,600
Speaker 1: I'll yell up. I told Dog come use the bathroom

2214
02:19:38,600 --> 02:19:41,879
Speaker 1: and get an internet connection out there, all right. Thanks

2215
02:19:41,920 --> 02:19:42,320
Speaker 1: for joining