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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

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Speaker 2: crime all the time. It's Thursday, March fifth, and we

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Speaker 2: have a stacked night of headlines. We have almost made

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Speaker 2: it through the entire week, everybody, so buckle up. It

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Speaker 2: has been over a month. Where is Nancy Guthrie? There

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Speaker 2: have been some new developments. Will break those all down

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Speaker 2: for you. Also, a major case in Utah, suspect has

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Speaker 2: been arrested after a multi state manhunt. They are finally

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Speaker 2: in care, but boy was a doozy of a day

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Speaker 2: for everybody involved. Also, a mother has been arrested after

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Speaker 2: her two daughters were found in multiple suitcases and now

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Speaker 2: she has been charged with double homicide.

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Speaker 3: Can you believe it?

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Speaker 2: And also later in the show, we're going to have

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Speaker 2: an extraordinary judge. Michelle Locke is going to be joining us.

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Speaker 2: She's a judge. She really specializes in family court especially

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Speaker 2: and I know that's something that we've been talking about

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Speaker 2: in several cases, including the case just this week with

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Speaker 2: the dad who bought his son a gun. Kind of

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Speaker 2: the difference that parents can be making in this scenario.

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Speaker 2: So we have a big judge in town who's going

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Speaker 2: to be giving us.

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Speaker 3: All of the details.

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Speaker 2: Plus there's some new developments happening in real time in

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Speaker 2: the Epstein case. And until then, I'm Stephanie Leidecker here

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Speaker 2: with Courtney Armstrong and body movin.

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Speaker 4: Ladies.

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Speaker 3: How is your day? It's Thursday tomorrow, It's Thursday. It's member,

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Speaker 3: It's Friday, Junior.

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Speaker 2: It's Friday, Junior. It makes me want to eat a

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Speaker 2: cheeseburger or something.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, let it beat me some French fries, some salty

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Speaker 3: conge tries. Oh, I love it. Court How is cheese?

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Speaker 4: Watch?

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Speaker 5: And lack of booze? How's that all going for you?

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Speaker 5: I tell you what, I have never felt more pious

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Speaker 5: or bored.

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Speaker 3: Are you just just get your watercolors out? Come on?

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Speaker 5: That is honestly perfect time to start painting you. I

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Speaker 5: have been painting so much it's getting weird. That is

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Speaker 5: the absolute truth. That is my substitute for the cheese

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Speaker 5: and the boose. Well, your skin looks great, Thank you, Boddy.

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Speaker 3: You you're good. I'm good. Listen, I'm ready to get going.

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Speaker 3: There's a lot to get into tonight. All right, happened today.

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Speaker 5: Courtney Armstrong, Okay, Nancy Guthrie Now, she, of course, is

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Speaker 5: the eighty four year old mother of Savannah Guthrie, who

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Speaker 5: disappeared from her home in Tucson. This was back on

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Speaker 5: February first. This is prompted obviously a major search and

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Speaker 5: federal investigation. There are many and multiple different agencies involved.

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Speaker 5: So investigators now say they are quote definitely closer to

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Speaker 5: identifying suspects in the disappearance of Nance Guthrie. Some new

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Speaker 5: forensic details have emerged in the ongoing investigation.

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Speaker 3: So this this didn't seemly closer. What does that mean?

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Speaker 3: Could even be? How do you know if you don't know?

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Speaker 3: How do you know if you're closer if you don't

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Speaker 3: know who it is?

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Speaker 5: Well, the Pima County Sheriff Chris Nanio said, they do

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Speaker 5: have a lot of intel, a lot of leads.

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Speaker 3: But now it's time to just go to work. Oh,

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Speaker 3: now it's time. Now, it's time. They've been working.

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Speaker 2: Please tell me that they've been working around the clock.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure they have been. I actually quite like that sheriff.

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Speaker 2: I think he's very sweet. But listen, everybody is listening

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Speaker 2: looking for Nancy Guthrie. How is it possible that between

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Speaker 2: all the technology, everybody, including the President of the United States,

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Speaker 2: is looking for Nancy Guthrie.

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Speaker 3: How have we not found her? I don't know.

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Speaker 5: And with your disbelief, those were quotes, don't murder the messenger.

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Speaker 3: Know, we're like attacking Cordy. How really, I'm busy with

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Speaker 3: the Louver cover up. Oh yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 5: But you know, here, here's what authorities are saying. And

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Speaker 5: I mean, this feels like what we all kind of

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Speaker 5: know at this point. It feels like authorities do believe

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Speaker 5: an unknown masked suspect it approach Nancy Guthrie's home overnight

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Speaker 5: on that February first and abducted her. That doesn't feel

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Speaker 5: like news.

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Speaker 4: Uh.

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Speaker 5: Savannah Guthrie did return to the Today Show. She went, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 5: not noting work. Yeah, she was Studio one a Rockefeller Center,

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Speaker 5: and she was hugging co anchors and thanking colleagues, of course,

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Speaker 5: and she'll return officially on air when she's ready.

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Speaker 3: I was just going to ask, but she on the

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Speaker 3: air this morning. No, okay, they.

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Speaker 2: Have hoda copy that jumping in for her. But it

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Speaker 2: did seem very emotional backstage.

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Speaker 3: Surely imagine for a really long time. Yeah. Yeah, they're

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Speaker 3: like fair and they'ven covering it right, Yeah, oh absolutely.

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Speaker 3: The Guthrie family has increased the reward pool to over

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Speaker 3: one point two million. And what this is.

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Speaker 5: It's a million dollars from the family, one hundred thousand

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Speaker 5: dollars from the FBI, and in an odd to me

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Speaker 5: number one hundred and two thousand, five hundred through the

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Speaker 5: Pima County Attorney's Office tip line eight eight prime.

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Speaker 3: I would like to do a deep dive one day

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Speaker 3: into how they come up these numbers, Like how does

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Speaker 3: the FBI put you know, twenty five thousand dollars on

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Speaker 3: this person but five thousand on this person? And how

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Speaker 3: did the you know what I mean? Like, I would

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Speaker 3: like to figure that out. That would be a very

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Speaker 3: big deal.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I honestly, you know, we've talked about this,

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Speaker 2: but and again you're the one that alerted me to

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Speaker 2: this about how typically law enforcement doesn't really want to

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Speaker 2: give a big reward because you know, you get inundated

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Speaker 2: with a lot of fake calls and you're you're one

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Speaker 2: hundred percent right about that. That to be said, though,

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Speaker 2: this big conversations, and I think for Savannah, you know,

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Speaker 2: they're saying that they would have given a million dollar

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Speaker 2: reward from day one. Maybe would have that would that

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Speaker 2: made it make a difference. Maybe, But it's just so

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Speaker 2: tragic and again we're so desperately sad for them.

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Speaker 3: Oh it's been so long.

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Speaker 5: The by the way, unknown DNA that was inside of

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Speaker 5: Nancy Guthrie's home, some of it has been confirmed to

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Speaker 5: not belong to any of our inner circle. However, authorities

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Speaker 5: haven't disclosed any result of the ongoing analysis. They said

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Speaker 5: it belonged to the oh you're talking about from the home,

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Speaker 5: Right from the home were you just about to reference?

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Speaker 3: There was a restaurant worker. It's interesting. It's interesting because

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Speaker 3: this that glove they found, right, remember, we were like, oh,

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Speaker 3: how do they even know it came? But it looked

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Speaker 3: like the same kind of glove that was seen on

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Speaker 3: the nest camera footage right that they have with this

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Speaker 3: suspec And it came back to a restaurant worker. And

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Speaker 3: it's interesting. It's interesting only because it must have been

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Speaker 3: a code of is hit right to come back that quick?

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Speaker 2: It's a really good point. I hadn't considered that. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: chances are I don't know such a fast turnarounds on

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Speaker 2: that information, and we know that can sometimes take a

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Speaker 2: really long time. Although it wasn't that so I feel

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Speaker 2: like we were talking about the globe.

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Speaker 3: It was long ago. It was fast enough for a

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Speaker 3: codas tip, but not long enough to be igd in.

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Speaker 3: That's just my opinion. That's just my opinion. I'm not Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I'm so curious.

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Speaker 2: That's a really interesting point because that information did come

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Speaker 2: back pretty quickly and felt very promising. You know, can

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Speaker 2: you imagine like the family is like waiting for any

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Speaker 2: possible detail, and yeah, of course if this person has

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Speaker 2: obviously been been said to not be a suspect at all.

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Speaker 5: Right, Earlier this week it was to actually mark the

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Speaker 5: one month since Nancy Gottrie has been missing. Savannah Guthrie,

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Speaker 5: her sister Annie Guthrie, and her brother in law, Tomaso Sioni,

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Speaker 5: they all visited the growing tribute. It has yellow flowers,

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Speaker 5: it has cards and messages outside of Nancy Guthrie's home.

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Speaker 5: And I don't know if you guys saw any of

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Speaker 5: that coverage, but it's beautiful and tragic.

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Speaker 2: It must be the worst feeling in the world. And

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Speaker 2: I'm sure you know listeners out there unfortunately maybe have

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Speaker 2: had this experience when you're missing someone. It's like you

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Speaker 2: can't eat, drink, sleep, you can't do anything because there's

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Speaker 2: just no answers. So hopefully they have some closure to

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Speaker 2: some degree soon. Oh my goodness, you see.

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Speaker 4: What just happened?

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Speaker 3: No, definitely.

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Speaker 2: Today and two birds came inside. I had to like

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Speaker 2: chose two birds? Yeah, Bible and I have like ladybugs

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Speaker 2: coming off. I'm like, I'm basically like snow, are you.

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Speaker 3: Are you now? Are you living in the forest?

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Speaker 4: Now?

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Speaker 3: Are you now? What is happening? Are you Okay?

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Speaker 2: It's like a far far from enchanted this forest I

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Speaker 2: find myself in.

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Speaker 5: Were you screaming? Two birds came into your house?

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Speaker 3: Two of the cute there was so little.

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Speaker 2: It was like little para keets with the cutest little

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Speaker 2: like beaks, and yeah, I was like, wait, are there

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Speaker 2: two birds flying around the house right now? Wrangling two

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Speaker 2: birds was.

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Speaker 3: At a hand. And then they were so cute though,

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Speaker 3: and then I didn't feel scared anymore.

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Speaker 2: I just like opened everything and opened every window and

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Speaker 2: just tried to corral those kittens.

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Speaker 3: Out, but they were looking to play and stay.

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Speaker 2: White animals, I mean literally, there's lady bugs everywhere.

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Speaker 3: I don't know what she's like. Snow white little birds

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Speaker 3: are like. She's like you a flower crown.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, right, right, anyway, I guess this is what happens

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Speaker 2: when there's a hole in your room.

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Speaker 3: Wow, this is true crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, we're talking

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Speaker 3: true crime all the time. I'm right in the middle

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Speaker 3: of giving an update on the update in the Nancy

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Speaker 3: Guthrie case. It's been a month, right, it's been a month.

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Speaker 3: I just can't believe she hasn't been found yet. If

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Speaker 3: you have, if you want to weigh and give us

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Speaker 3: a call eight at eight thirty one crime, or you

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Speaker 3: can download the iHeartRadio app and you know, leave us

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Speaker 3: a little talk back. Yeah. Absolutely.

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Speaker 5: There was a note on Instagram from Savannah Guthrie, and

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Speaker 5: you know she just said, we feel the love and

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Speaker 5: prayers from our neighbors, from the Tucson community and from

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Speaker 5: around the country. Heart Please don't stop praying and hoping

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Speaker 5: with us bring her home, Yahlick.

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Speaker 2: We have to still hope for a miracle. I mean,

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Speaker 2: we don't have anything to suggest otherwise obviously she was so,

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Speaker 2: you know, tethered to her medicine.

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Speaker 3: What is suspicious? There's like no answers. It makes no sense. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: it really doesn't. Do we want to go to a talk? Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I was gonna say, let's right.

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Speaker 6: Thany guys shortened from Arizona. I'm listening to your kidnapping

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Speaker 6: versus abduction conversation. I'm just a little pist. Know, you

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Speaker 6: can technically get charged with kidnapping even if you don't

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Speaker 6: remove someone from their residence. If you just remove their

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Speaker 6: access to get help, remove their cell phone, put their

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Speaker 6: cell phone away from them, not let them leave, that

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Speaker 6: also is considered kidnapping. Thanks guys.

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Speaker 3: Mm interesting, yeah, so there because there is a difference

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Speaker 3: between kidnapping and abduction, right or so, kidnapping usually not,

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Speaker 3: I mean not all the time. That's why, you know,

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Speaker 3: usually is like a really big word here, involves holding

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Speaker 3: a person for ransom or you remove them to commit

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Speaker 3: other crimes. Right. Abduction usually refers to taking somebody by

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Speaker 3: force or uh, frauds and persuasion, you know or whatnot.

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Speaker 3: And what the talkback is saying is that you can

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Speaker 3: get charged with kidnapping if you just remove access for

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Speaker 3: them to get help. I didn't know that.

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Speaker 5: Well, it's interesting and I actually thank you for that, John,

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Speaker 5: Thank you's great. And I'm actually looking and oh, kind

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Speaker 5: of a tenant of the definition which I didn't know

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Speaker 5: is it's the forcible taking or detention of a Pretenshicha.

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Speaker 3: Saw that too.

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Speaker 2: Remember the case with this, that horrible case. I hate

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Speaker 2: to even bring it up with a mom and buzzard. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: the buzz case. I thought about her this morning actually,

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Speaker 2: and she had that friend who had been held and

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Speaker 2: that was that guy was weird.

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Speaker 3: Do you remember, Riam? He was like a he stopped

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Speaker 3: by to offer help and she like held him there

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Speaker 3: with like a razor blader.

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Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, that's what they arrested her on. Sorry, this's right,

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Speaker 2: we're digressing. But yeah, it's a really great smart talk back.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Jordan, Yes, thank you.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 5: So yeah, whether I mean, I think it's just I

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Speaker 5: don't know. Back to your original questions of the definitely closer,

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Speaker 5: that's kind of.

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Speaker 3: What does that mean? How do you know you're closer?

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Speaker 3: They just have more. I mean we don't know what

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Speaker 3: they have, right, No, we.

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Speaker 5: Don't know what they have, but maybe their leads and intel.

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Speaker 3: I'm guessing based on what they said.

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Speaker 7: Having a substantial amount of evidence, that they're just being

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Speaker 7: really cool about releasing.

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Speaker 2: And course they've been I don't think so. I think

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Speaker 2: I did releasing so much information along the way if

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Speaker 2: they had a big hit where they had some big

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Speaker 2: movement in this case. Remember this was twenty four hours

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Speaker 2: a day coverage we know we've been covering today.

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Speaker 3: The FBI was back in Nancy's neighborhood going door to

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Speaker 3: door again today. Has I been checking in on the

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Speaker 3: coverage because everybody's still out there filming every day and

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Speaker 3: the FBI, I think it was the Violent Crimes Task Force.

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Speaker 3: I can't I don't remember one hundred percent, but they

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Speaker 3: were going door to door and I'm like, I've never seen, personally,

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Speaker 3: never seen so many revisits that I have in this case.

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Speaker 3: But I've also never seen twenty four to seven coverage

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Speaker 3: of a home where a crime occurred, you know what

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Speaker 3: I mean, Because there's been a lot of YouTubers out

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Speaker 3: there right, a lot of YouTubers. It's literally has been

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Speaker 3: twenty four hours a day.

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Speaker 2: Imagine we've seen this in the movies, but going door

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Speaker 2: to door for law enforcement now multiple times going back

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Speaker 2: to square one, do when you go door to door

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Speaker 2: do you just say, hey, have you seen anything suspicious?

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Speaker 2: Or do you actually go in if you're law enforcement

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Speaker 2: into a person's home.

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Speaker 3: It depends on that they invite you in. Where's the

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Speaker 3: basement they have to invite you in. I mean, they

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Speaker 3: don't have like warrants or whatever. They're probably asking eighty

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Speaker 3: have you seen any more camera footage or because there

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Speaker 3: was camera footage of a car leaving the neighborhood at

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Speaker 3: this around the same time that nance see Guthries, you know,

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Speaker 3: alert went off right or her I'm sorry, her pacemaker

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Speaker 3: stopped communicating. It was around the same time. And if

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Speaker 3: you rout it and you timed it, it looks like

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Speaker 3: it might be maybe possibly that vehicle that has Nancy

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Speaker 3: or you know, that was the perpetrator. So maybe maybe

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Speaker 3: they were asking, hey, you know, you can we check

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Speaker 3: your footage for this car, but that car was that

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Speaker 3: car footage was? It came out like a week ago.

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Speaker 3: For them to just visit would be weird. Yeah, I

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Speaker 3: don't know. So many questions, yeah, so many questions, and

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Speaker 3: we don't have any answers unfortunately, But coming up next,

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Speaker 3: really horrifying crime out of Cleveland. Two young little girls

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Speaker 3: were found dead inside suitcases. They were partially buried, and

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Speaker 3: investigators say the victims were half sisters. Remember we're on

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Speaker 3: five nights a week and we can take live calls

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Speaker 3: at eighty eight thirty one crime. Keep an ear at

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Speaker 3: your creds night.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to true crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with

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Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong and Body move in.

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Speaker 3: We have Taha.

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Speaker 2: And Sam and Adam in the control room as well.

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Speaker 2: We'd love to hear from you. Eight eight eight three

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Speaker 2: one crime. Just as a heads up, we're going to

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Speaker 2: be on KFI in southern California on Sunday.

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Speaker 3: Oh look at my voices going away. So we're really excited.

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Speaker 3: We hope you guys will just just in time for Sunday.

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Speaker 4: Baby.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, these are some really heavy cases that we

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Speaker 2: have coming up to unpack, so fair warning and slight

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Speaker 2: trigger alert, some really grizzly stuff. It was an extraordinary

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Speaker 2: day in the world of true crime today. So body,

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Speaker 2: let's start with your story because it is super super

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Speaker 2: so sad.

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Speaker 3: So this came out of Cleveland yesterday and the bodies

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Speaker 3: of two young girls. They were identified as ten year

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Speaker 3: old Armor Wilson an eight year old Mia Chapman. They

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Speaker 3: were discovered partially buried inside suitcases near a playground in Cleveland.

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Speaker 3: Authorities have confirmed the girls they were half sisters. Twenty

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Speaker 3: eight year old Cleveland woman Eliah Henderson, who's the girl's mother,

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Speaker 3: has been arrested in connection with their deaths, and she's

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Speaker 3: been charged with two counts of aggravated murder. So what happened?

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Speaker 4: M hm?

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Speaker 3: So this happened Monday. Well, they were discovered Monday. Okay,

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Speaker 3: it was about six, six o'clock at night. A man

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Speaker 3: was just walking his dog, right, you know, out for

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Speaker 3: a stroll with his dog, and the dog alerted, you know,

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Speaker 3: like not alerted, but you know, was like there's something here,

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Speaker 3: and he kind of unzipped the suitcases and immediately called

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Speaker 3: the police obviously, right, And they were kind of, you know,

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Speaker 3: partially buried, you know, these suitcases, and there was a

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Speaker 3: lot of heavy snow over the winter and whatnot, so

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Speaker 3: they're not one hundred percent sure how long they had

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Speaker 3: been there, right, So they found that he the dog

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Speaker 3: found the one suitcase, and police located the second suitcase.

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Speaker 3: It was about twenty five feet away, containing the other

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Speaker 3: little girl. And it was very shallow graves that these

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Speaker 3: suitcases were in. Can you just imagine, by the way,

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Speaker 3: being that man taking a walk with his dog.

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Speaker 2: No, no, it's so cruel. He'll never be the same again.

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Speaker 2: He just saw two little nuggets in a suitcase. It's unimaginable.

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Speaker 3: He's never going to be the same again. So preliminary

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Speaker 3: identification was done by the Medical Examiner's office and they

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Speaker 3: confirmed the girls again as Armor Wilson she was ten

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Speaker 3: years old, and Milla Mia Chapman, she was eight years old,

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Speaker 3: and that they can and they were half sisters through DNA. Okay,

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Speaker 3: the bodies were not dismembered. Investigators believed they had been

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Speaker 3: at the location for some time, possibly weeks, and again

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Speaker 3: the snowfall was partially concealing some of these great you know,

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Speaker 3: you know, portions of this very shallow grave. The mother

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Speaker 3: I used that term, and it it makes it gives

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Speaker 3: me no joy to call her a mother. Her name

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Speaker 3: is Aliah Henderson. She's twenty years old. She was booked yesterday,

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Speaker 3: two days after the bodies were found. And she's being

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Speaker 3: held at the county jail on two counts of aggravated murder.

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Speaker 3: The medical examiner has not revealed the cause of death

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Speaker 3: at this time. When the police went to the mom's house,

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Speaker 3: there was another another child there and thankfully though this

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Speaker 3: child was unharmed, and there's been no details about who

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Speaker 3: this child is, but the child is in this safe

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Speaker 3: custody of the Department of Child and Family Services. Well,

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Speaker 3: so thank god for that. I thank god for that.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and also it must well obviously know much more

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Speaker 5: as this continues to unfold. But that's a quick arrest,

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Speaker 5: very quick, that's a very caress, that's very The DNA

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Speaker 5: testing was pretty quick as well to even just identify

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Speaker 5: the fact that they were half sisters, and you know,

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Speaker 5: even for mom to go about her life thereafter. I mean,

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Speaker 5: imagine you've, you know, a couple of weeks killed your

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Speaker 5: daughters and put them in a suitcase, you know, mental

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Speaker 5: illness or something very serious happening with mom in order

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Speaker 5: to do that. It feels like we're having like an

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Speaker 5: uptick of cases where mom moms are doing such terrible

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Speaker 5: things to their Owneah.

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Speaker 3: I think you're right there. I wonder we have been

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Speaker 3: talking about it more or seeing it more, seeing it

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Speaker 3: more happening the go ahead, Courtney, Oh, I was just

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Speaker 3: going to say, also for the child.

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Speaker 5: And we don't have much information at all about the

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Speaker 5: child who was at home and thankfully unharmed. But if

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Speaker 5: we presume, which we have no idea, but if we

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Speaker 5: presume that these two little half sisters who are now

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Speaker 5: deceased and the other remaining child were living in the

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Speaker 5: same home or even were in each other's orbits, what

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Speaker 5: the heck is that situation for that prid child?

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Speaker 3: Like, what did the kid thing happen to his or

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Speaker 3: her sisters?

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Speaker 8: Right?

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Speaker 3: Correct? Correct? I'm assuming it's a child of Aliyah Henderson.

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Speaker 3: I'm assuming it's her child. Assume that's my assumption. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: exactly right. So like where let's just say it's a

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Speaker 3: little boy, where's you know, where's his little sisters? What

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Speaker 3: was he thinking? I you know, I don't know. What

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Speaker 3: did you look? What did she tell the little kid

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Speaker 3: about them? You know, this is really sad too. So

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Speaker 3: MIA's father, she's the eight year old Okay, his name

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Speaker 3: is Deshaun Chapman, and he said that he's been looking

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Speaker 3: for his daughter for quite some time, and that he

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Speaker 3: was trying to get custody of her for over five years.

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Speaker 3: Wow yeah, he said. He talked to a local outlet

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Speaker 3: in Cleveland News nineteen and he said it's very much horrible.

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Speaker 3: And he added that it turned out Mia had been

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Speaker 3: living with a view of where their bodies were found.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, he said. He felt useless. I couldn't save

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Speaker 3: my baby. I mean I can just like hear his voice,

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Speaker 3: you know, cracking. Mia was happy, go lucky, always smiling.

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Speaker 3: Chapman said. He said her favorite color was pink. She

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Speaker 3: swore that she was a princess and she was just

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Speaker 3: a kid's kid, and she was just happy, happy, happy.

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Speaker 3: He went on to tell you Know News nineteen that

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Speaker 3: he was overcome with grief and anger. He's angry, and

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Speaker 3: he says, I've been looking for my daughter. I've been

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Speaker 3: calling CPS. I've been going to the courts trying to

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Speaker 3: get an emergency custody, calling the police for welfare checks,

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Speaker 3: but they denied all access. What I'm feeling is hate.

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Speaker 3: I'm not going to lie. I feel hate. I asked

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Speaker 3: you on numerous occasions for my daughter. If it's too

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Speaker 3: much for you, I just want my daughter Chapman said

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Speaker 3: when he asked how he felt. It's awful.

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Speaker 2: And by the way, we have Michelle Lacke, who's an

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Speaker 2: extraordinary judge joining us later today in the evening and listen,

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Speaker 2: this is her specialty because family court is so complicated.

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Speaker 2: Imagine you're looking for your daughter, You're trying to get

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Speaker 2: access to her and have access to where she is.

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Speaker 3: Can you believe it?

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Speaker 2: And this is what you find out is that mom

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Speaker 2: has allegedly done this to her.

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Speaker 3: So, yeah, it's an important stuff.

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Speaker 2: I feel like we have to unpack some of the

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Speaker 2: legalities or what other parents can do, whether you're the

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Speaker 2: mother or the father, if you fear your kids are

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Speaker 2: in danger.

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Speaker 3: It's such a tough system. Yeah, he said that like

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Speaker 3: she would. The mom was avoiding him, so he would

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Speaker 3: locate them. Like again, he's the father of one of

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Speaker 3: the children that was found in the suitcase me as

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Speaker 3: she's eight years old, and his name is DeShawn Chapman,

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00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:14,520
Speaker 3: and he said that, you know, the little girl's mom

434
00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:18,480
Speaker 3: had been avoiding him and moving around a lot, like

435
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 3: she would stay at a place for only a few

436
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 3: months and then get another place, like she kept moving. Yeah,

437
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:27,440
Speaker 3: she was on the move. Something was clearly going transient, right, Yeah, clearly, clearly,

438
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:31,240
Speaker 3: he said. The last time he saw her was when

439
00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:35,400
Speaker 3: he helped her buy clothes for kindergarten for Mia. Isn't

440
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 3: that horrible kindergarten? Yeah, I know it's there. There's a

441
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,359
Speaker 3: lot to unpack with this one. And clearly something, something

442
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:50,200
Speaker 3: has happened with mom. I mean, no normal mother, their

443
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 3: too precious babies and suitcases, no, you know what I mean.

444
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:55,439
Speaker 2: And even the fact that she was able to function

445
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,719
Speaker 2: thereafter and kind of go back to some semblance of life.

446
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:00,359
Speaker 2: You know, we don't know what was in her heart,

447
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:02,720
Speaker 2: but can you imagine weeks at least? Yeah, and you

448
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:06,639
Speaker 2: know that you've buried your babies in very close distance.

449
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:10,600
Speaker 2: I mean, there's there's no mother that can do that

450
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:12,560
Speaker 2: with a straight face and be able to pull that

451
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 2: off if there is not something extremely wrong. Again, it

452
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 2: sounds like I'm making excuses for her. I don't mean to,

453
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:21,919
Speaker 2: but wow, it's awful.

454
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 5: In some mitigating circuit, something must sounds very very broken. Yes,

455
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 5: either circumstantially and or mentally and or with substance abuse.

456
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:36,880
Speaker 5: Again guessing in the dark, but something has to be

457
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:38,600
Speaker 5: broken for this to.

458
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:39,919
Speaker 3: Be the fundamentally broken.

459
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:40,160
Speaker 4: Right.

460
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, So News nineteen in Cleveland, that local affiliate that

461
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,679
Speaker 3: I was saying that Deshaun did the interview with, they

462
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 3: caught up with him. He went to go visit the

463
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:53,640
Speaker 3: site where the girls were found, and he was so overwhelmed,

464
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:56,640
Speaker 3: you know, by the sight he it was really sad,

465
00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:00,040
Speaker 3: you guys. I encourage everybody to read the article. He

466
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 3: had to be comforted by like a friend because he

467
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 3: was so overcome with grief, and I mean, I just

468
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 3: got the impression that he was really fighting to try

469
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 3: and find his daughter and was just kind of getting like,

470
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 3: you know, the push around, you know around.

471
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 5: Listen, if you are just joining us, this is true

472
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:23,960
Speaker 5: crime tonight. Right now, we're discussing a very sad story.

473
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 5: It's the case of two young girls who are identified

474
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,680
Speaker 5: as ten year old Amore Wilson an eight year old

475
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 5: Mila Chapman, and they were discovered partially buried inside suitcases.

476
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 5: They are half sisters, and their mother, twenty eight year

477
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:42,919
Speaker 5: old Aleiah Henderson, has been arrested.

478
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 3: So what else is there anything else we should know about? Yeah,

479
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 3: he said that he he said that he wants to

480
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:53,919
Speaker 3: change the system and that he's going to try and

481
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,199
Speaker 3: fight to change the system, which he said, you know,

482
00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 3: denied him a chance to be a father. To Chapman,

483
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,159
Speaker 3: the little girl's mother again had been avoiding him and whatnot,

484
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:05,919
Speaker 3: And he said, I don't know how you can hit

485
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,879
Speaker 3: your kids enough to kill them, to bury them, to

486
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 3: do all this and go right there to that home

487
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 3: right there, because again this happened right where the girls lived,

488
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:19,679
Speaker 3: right within view of their home. So he said, to

489
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 3: bury them, to do all this and go right there

490
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:23,879
Speaker 3: to that home right there and live there. When your

491
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 3: kids are right here, you go be another a mother

492
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:29,920
Speaker 3: to another child while you just killed your other two.

493
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,719
Speaker 3: Like he was, he was trying. It felt like he

494
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 3: was trying to like how can you He was just

495
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,159
Speaker 3: in disbelief. I think, yeah, I mean, how could you

496
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:42,200
Speaker 3: believe any of that? Basically what we've been saying, like

497
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,159
Speaker 3: how did you live? Just go live your life? How

498
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:46,360
Speaker 3: could you go live your life? So he said he's

499
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 3: going to try to change the system, which again he said,

500
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:52,680
Speaker 3: denied him the chance to be a father, and Cleveland

501
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,920
Speaker 3: police are pursuing all leads and reviewing security camera footage

502
00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 3: from the area to determine like the exact date and

503
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 3: time that this happened. And Cleveland Police Chief Dorothy Todd,

504
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 3: she called the case terrible, horrific, a traumatic event for

505
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,359
Speaker 3: all of our officers and the community. And she praised

506
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 3: detectives for their work. And I do too. I mean

507
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 3: this was solved very quickly, very very quickly. Cleveland Mayor

508
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 3: Justin Bibb thanked police for the rapid investigation, describing the

509
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 3: discovery as shocking and emphasizing the city's commitment to protecting children.

510
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 3: The investigation is going to continue to determine Aleah Henderson's

511
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,240
Speaker 3: motive and other circumstances surrounding the girl's death, and the

512
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 3: police are following up on all leads. Yeah, but let's

513
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 3: go to a talk buck.

514
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 9: Hey, true grime tonight. Thank you so much for supporting

515
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 9: soldiers and keeping us in your thoughts. One thing that

516
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 9: always makes me feel supported is seeing my fellow citizens

517
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 9: actively engage with our democracy with patients and wisdom. Seeing

518
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:59,040
Speaker 9: people discuss policies, research and candidates voting, and even learning

519
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 9: about our justices to them from Jared Farantino motivates me

520
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:04,959
Speaker 9: to cherish and protect our great nation. But I wouldn't

521
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 9: say no to a sweatshirt thank you for all you do.

522
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 9: Sebastian from Rhode Island.

523
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 3: He's great. We love Sebastian from Rhode Island. Yes, he's

524
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 3: always so eloquently, Like I'm like, how does he speak

525
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 3: so eloquence like perfectly?

526
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 2: Actually, you have to be one of our you know,

527
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 2: military correspondents or something, because he does. He does such

528
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 2: a great job sort of give us laying it out.

529
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 2: And by the way, it's a great point, Sebastian. We

530
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 2: were all sort of you know, there's so much like

531
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 2: I hate them and I hate this and everyone's just

532
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 2: so amped right now and it can be really unproductive, right,

533
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 2: so we should just know that, yes, for anybody who's

534
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 2: loved ones are serving on our behalf, you know, that's

535
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 2: got to be so tough. And again we're just grateful

536
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 2: and thankful and for all of.

537
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 3: The service men and women.

538
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,720
Speaker 2: I feel like Sebastian might have the win of where

539
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 2: we can do something special, like how maybe we start

540
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 2: a fund or something for military families to support them.

541
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 2: I mean, the it is so scary. So yeah, thank

542
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 2: you Sebastian.

543
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 5: And I think he made such a great point about

544
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 5: engaging in democracy and starting you know, so many of us.

545
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 3: I'm the first one guilty in line.

546
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 5: Know very little about you know, our councilmen and the

547
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 5: people who actually work, and all of those things are

548
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 5: important and they are the absolute basis of what does

549
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 5: go up. I mean think about in recent years and

550
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 5: people have many thoughts about this, but what PTA's have

551
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 5: done to change literally education from the from one school.

552
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 3: At a time, with our you know, engagement change every

553
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 3: every you know, election year, whenever there is one, I

554
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 3: make a Google doc and I put all the candidates

555
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:03,760
Speaker 3: in and I do research on every single one. I

556
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 3: have just like a small paragraph on each of them,

557
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 3: and that's why I make my decision. I mean, you know,

558
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 3: all the governing happens local exactly.

559
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 2: It's really true, and we have to just keep critically thinking,

560
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 2: right just because you may have picked a side back

561
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 2: in the day, or we're raised in a certain house

562
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 2: or you know, identified as a certain thing, like I

563
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 2: don't know, I feel like the bets are the bets

564
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 2: are off. Maybe there's ways for us to kind of

565
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 2: learn from each other, and unfortunately not everybody has all

566
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 2: the answers. So Sebastian for Sebastian for councilmen.

567
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 3: He's representing crime tonight.

568
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 2: Yes, So moving on to yet another devastating case, an

569
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 2: important one though, because listen, this was a multi state manhunt.

570
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 3: Body.

571
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 2: Where should we begin with this case? Thank gosh, the

572
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 2: person has been caught.

573
00:31:55,960 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 3: Yeah. So authorities discover the bodies of three women. One

574
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 3: was in her thirties, one was in her sixties, and

575
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 3: one was in her eighties yesterday, March fourth. When I

576
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:10,719
Speaker 3: first when I first saw, when I first read this,

577
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 3: that's all we knew, right right, that's all we know

578
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 3: is that they discovered these bodies. I thought like it

579
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 3: was like a daughter, a mother, and like a grandmother

580
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 3: or something maybe, but no, So this happened. They found

581
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 3: these bodies yesterday, March fourth, and two of them were

582
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 3: on a hiking trail and then one was at a

583
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 3: home in Wayne County in Utah. So the killings prompted

584
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 3: all the schools and all the businesses to close. And

585
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 3: you know, this investigation involving the Utah Department of Public Safety,

586
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 3: the FBI, local law enforcement, you know, all kinds of

587
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 3: different places and agencies. Well, guess what. A suspect was

588
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 3: arrested already. This is amazing. Yeah, he's twenty two years old.

589
00:32:56,520 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 3: His name is Ivan Miller and he's from Iowa, Okay.

590
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 3: And he was arrested today. And he was arrested in

591
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 3: Colorado after a multi statement hunt ensued. Just as stuff

592
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 3: was saying, so yeah, the husbands of two women discovered

593
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 3: their bodies on March fourth, the two on the hiking

594
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 3: trail in Wayne County, Utah, and they called authorities. On

595
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 3: the same day, an elderly woman in her eighties was

596
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 3: found to see set her Lineman home in a cellar

597
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 3: under her shed, Wow, with drag marks and a live

598
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 3: twenty gage shotgun shell you know which. Of course, you

599
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 3: know there was some you know, indicated staging happening. Utah

600
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 3: Highwall Highway Patrolman Lieutenant Caeron Roden said that they were local,

601
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 3: but they weren't related to one another, right, we don't

602
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 3: because we don't know the names of the victims. So

603
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 3: the suspect in this case, Okay, Courtney, you and I

604
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 3: were talking about this before the show. This is yet wild, right.

605
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 5: It is, And I know you have many more sort

606
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 5: of of the nuts and bolts to go for it.

607
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 5: But if you ask this guy, this suspect, it all

608
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 5: started when he hit an ELK Okay, so.

609
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 3: Hitting an elk. Yeah, so he hit an elk with

610
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:17,800
Speaker 3: this car. And I mean, I don't know if you

611
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 3: guys ever seen an elk in person, but they're huge.

612
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 3: It'll totally it's like hitting a brick hole car, right. Yeah.

613
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,919
Speaker 3: So he sells the car just like a tow yard

614
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 3: I think, yeah, the tow trug company. And he's like,

615
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 3: I'm stuck here now in this little town. So he

616
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 3: stays at like a you know, a weekly and he's like, well,

617
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:39,920
Speaker 3: I got to get out of here. So he like

618
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,400
Speaker 3: sees this elderly woman and he's like, Okay, that's a

619
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 3: good target, right, Courtney.

620
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly right, and yes, and he ended up staying

621
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 5: in a back shed where this eight year old woman

622
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 5: was later found. So he slept there, didn't want to

623
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:56,840
Speaker 5: pay for the hotel, right.

624
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 3: And he st he waited, he waited for her leave.

625
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:05,360
Speaker 3: Right then he sneaks into the house. This is terrifying

626
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:08,319
Speaker 3: to me. He sneaks into the house, wait for her

627
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 3: to come home, and he hides. She sits down to

628
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:15,760
Speaker 3: watch TV. You know, she's watching the Prices, right whatever,

629
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,439
Speaker 3: and he shoots her. He shoots her as she's watching TV.

630
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 3: He snuck up and shot her, took the car because

631
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 3: that's what he was after. He was after the car.

632
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 3: Get out of there. Yeah, he wanted her vehicle.

633
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 2: But this guy just rolls into town though he has

634
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 2: an ELK. It is a very real killer instincts. And

635
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 2: I don't mean that in a glib way. Goes on

636
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 2: the spree that this human did just because they just

637
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:47,800
Speaker 2: either wanted a car or or now you can't imagine

638
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,319
Speaker 2: that there wasn't something going on prior to this, Like

639
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:52,399
Speaker 2: I would want to track this guy and where he's

640
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:56,359
Speaker 2: been me too, you know, for for a year, because

641
00:35:56,400 --> 00:36:00,160
Speaker 2: this is a very violent display, very like, very quickly.

642
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:00,839
Speaker 3: Yeah.

643
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 5: No, this is like something that Quentin Tarantino would direct.

644
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:07,879
Speaker 5: And I also mean to be glib when I say that.

645
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:12,359
Speaker 5: But according to this guy, so he shot to Boddy's point,

646
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:15,399
Speaker 5: he was hiding behind a door, shot this poor eighty

647
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,880
Speaker 5: year old woman in the back, in the back of

648
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 5: her head. But then you know, he said, he's like,

649
00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:23,800
Speaker 5: I tried to clean up the scene best I could

650
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:27,800
Speaker 5: and put this poor now deceased woman into the shed

651
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:31,760
Speaker 5: and into the basement of the shed. He then grabbed

652
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 5: his things took her car, but quote he didn't like

653
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:38,320
Speaker 5: the car and wanted to find a different vehicle, which

654
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 5: leads us to the other two women.

655
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:42,600
Speaker 2: And the way he did his best, it was very

656
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 2: nice of him to acknowledge that he just you know,

657
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 2: he had to kill her.

658
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 3: You know, he did take her to the shed, and

659
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:51,759
Speaker 3: very you know ish. It's so weird. Give the guy

660
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 3: a break. I mean, this is so he's driving along

661
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:56,319
Speaker 3: in this car of this elderly woman, this eighty year

662
00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:58,239
Speaker 3: old woman that he just murdered, right, and he's like,

663
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,440
Speaker 3: I don't like this car, right, and he's he's he

664
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 3: sees two women that he you know, get get out

665
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 3: of the super ru and he's like, oh, I like

666
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 3: that one, right. They're they're going hiking, so he shoots them.

667
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 3: One of them is still alive, and he's like, oh okay,

668
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 3: and he stabs her. He stabs her to death, right,

669
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 3: and then he takes the Supero and he's going to

670
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:25,879
Speaker 3: go back to Iowa at this point, but they caught

671
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 3: him in Colorado. They caught him in Colorado by the way,

672
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 3: people were sheltering in place.

673
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:36,360
Speaker 2: Can you imagine he would have killed old body and

674
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:38,719
Speaker 2: he's shut down, all shut down.

675
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 3: So law enforcement used license plate readers and UH integrated

676
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 3: tracking to follow stolen the stolen vehicles through southern Utah,

677
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:54,759
Speaker 3: northern Arizona, New Mexico, and into Pagosa Springs, Colorado. Fabulous job.

678
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 3: A fabulous job, by the way. So March fifth, a

679
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 3: day later, on the early morning, Ivan W. Miller was

680
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 3: arrested in Pagosa Springs with a concealed handgun and a

681
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:12,799
Speaker 3: large knife. He confessed to killing the elderly woman at

682
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,880
Speaker 3: her home again. He stole her buick, which he didn't

683
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 3: really care for. Then you know, shot and stabbed the

684
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 3: women on the trailhead and draw. He drugged their bodies

685
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:25,719
Speaker 3: to a ditch. And you guess what else he did.

686
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 3: He took their credit cards and he used them to

687
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:31,839
Speaker 3: buy gas, used them to buy gas. What a this

688
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 3: guy he had? He had no prior relationship. There's no

689
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:43,799
Speaker 3: you know, familiarity between him and any of the victims

690
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:45,239
Speaker 3: or the town.

691
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 2: Literally is the beginning plot movie to the scariest movie ever.

692
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:49,799
Speaker 1: Man.

693
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:52,440
Speaker 2: Can you imagine this new guy rolls into town and

694
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 2: goes on a murder spree where schools have to be shut.

695
00:38:55,360 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 4: Down waiting in the house for you wouldn't we'd.

696
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 2: Be like, that's so far fetched, that's so Hollywood. Nobody

697
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:04,480
Speaker 2: that would never happen.

698
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 5: And the town, by the way, because I was, I was, so.

699
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 5: We do not often hear of shelter in place and

700
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 5: closing down in.

701
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:15,760
Speaker 3: Schools, thankfully. But this town is very small.

702
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:18,720
Speaker 5: I need to triple check this, but it gets less

703
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:21,399
Speaker 5: than three thousand people, and I don't believe there's ever

704
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:23,360
Speaker 5: been any murders there.

705
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:28,920
Speaker 3: So this was this guy made very bad, gross history.

706
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 3: He sure did.

707
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:30,360
Speaker 4: So.

708
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:34,800
Speaker 3: He's been charged with three counts of aggravated murder first

709
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 3: degree felony in the sixth Sister Court in Utah, and

710
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:43,560
Speaker 3: with additional charge for theft, burglary, and firearm violations. Authorities

711
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 3: confirmed that there's no ongoing public threats, and of course

712
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:53,279
Speaker 3: the investigation continues. Again. You know, all the schools canceled classes,

713
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:59,239
Speaker 3: the courthouse closed. Tory Mayor Mickey Wright offered condolences and

714
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:03,279
Speaker 3: praised law enforcements rapid response, and so do I. I mean,

715
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 3: both of these cases that we just went over the

716
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 3: last thirty minutes, incredible response from police in my opinions,

717
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:15,560
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, they did an excellent job. They used technology,

718
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 3: they used their their instincts, everything to find these guys

719
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 3: and hats off to you.

720
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:26,600
Speaker 5: Absolutely, I have to say I am going to be

721
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 5: really curious to see how and if this goes to trial.

722
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:33,279
Speaker 3: I mean, he's caught and seems to have.

723
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 5: He can fund a lot, but the backstory is definitely

724
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:39,359
Speaker 5: like where did he come from? And how like what

725
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:43,400
Speaker 5: was doing in his life leading up to this elk incident?

726
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 2: Like had he not hit the elk, would life be different?

727
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:49,319
Speaker 2: I always think that in some of these cases that

728
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:53,279
Speaker 2: we cover, like had they yeah, like had they just

729
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 2: caught the cab, you know, fifteen minutes earlier, or you know,

730
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:00,480
Speaker 2: maybe they actually stayed and had coffee with dinner this

731
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 2: time and dessert and that slowed things down because again,

732
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:08,359
Speaker 2: even for the victims here, it was just circumstance. They

733
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:10,799
Speaker 2: just happened to be in the wrong place at the

734
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:11,880
Speaker 2: very worst time.

735
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:12,399
Speaker 3: Yep.

736
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 5: Absolutely, If you're joining us, we've just been talking about

737
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:20,880
Speaker 5: the bodies of three women who were found in Utah

738
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:23,880
Speaker 5: and there is now a suspect in custody.

739
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 3: His name is Ivan W.

740
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 5: Miller, and we will continue following that and in the meantime,

741
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 5: let's go to a talk back.

742
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:33,759
Speaker 8: HI, somebody left it talk back about a disaster kit

743
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:36,440
Speaker 8: and what's include in it for your pets, and body

744
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 8: was confused on what the reason would be for pet

745
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:42,479
Speaker 8: vaccination records. Well, if you were to need to stay

746
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:45,719
Speaker 8: in a shelter or a hotel or something that is

747
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:49,520
Speaker 8: pet friendly, they might require you to provide those papers

748
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 8: in order to keep your pets there. So that's why

749
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:52,719
Speaker 8: I love y'all.

750
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:56,960
Speaker 3: Bye. Oh, I get it, great call, I really appreciate it.

751
00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:01,080
Speaker 3: But I totally get it. When I'm envisioning, when I think,

752
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:03,799
Speaker 3: you know, I'm gonna need my disaster kit is like

753
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:09,320
Speaker 3: mad Max. Okay, I'm envisioned. I'm serious. So that's why

754
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:14,400
Speaker 3: would you When I'm envisioning like an apocalyptic world, like

755
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:17,440
Speaker 3: a wasteland, there's not going to be who tells to

756
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:20,120
Speaker 3: stay at in my vision of an apocalypse, you know

757
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:22,560
Speaker 3: what I mean, I don't see it. That's why I

758
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:25,399
Speaker 3: was like, why what do you mean? Like that's not

759
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:28,360
Speaker 3: going to the best Western we all have.

760
00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 2: Yes, we're gonna be there's best westerning, but that's in

761
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:34,400
Speaker 2: the future. And yeah, like I feel like there's so

762
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 2: much apocalyptic talk right now and it's so crazy.

763
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:40,960
Speaker 3: We are not We're we're not Oh my god, apocalypse

764
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:41,799
Speaker 3: number one.

765
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:44,799
Speaker 2: Just gonna have water and some canned food and some

766
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:48,880
Speaker 2: cash on hand, and our passports and our vaccine information

767
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:52,320
Speaker 2: for the pups, all our information, just in one little

768
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 2: safe fact fact, nothing to stress about. We don't want

769
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:59,200
Speaker 2: to fear monger. But man, it's a little weird out there.

770
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:00,760
Speaker 2: So you just got to water and food.

771
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 4: I mean, I'm still just to be saved.

772
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 3: Just that I have.

773
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:11,759
Speaker 2: I bought I also also again crazy category, so I'm

774
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 2: not recommending this, but I'll check it out. I bought

775
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:18,719
Speaker 2: a backpack that's e M fersistent. I mean, they can't

776
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:23,279
Speaker 2: spot you because like your phone is rendered useless. I

777
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:25,279
Speaker 2: don't know much about it. It got it sold me

778
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:27,720
Speaker 2: on Instagram, so I'll let you know when it comes.

779
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 4: Listen.

780
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 3: If there's an emp poles electromatic, which is like would

781
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:36,680
Speaker 3: be devaphone from all the electronics, get a little Faraday

782
00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 3: bag too. That's what it is. It's a Faraday back perfect.

783
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 3: That's what Luigi men had. That's what I.

784
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:48,360
Speaker 4: Did. Not.

785
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:49,959
Speaker 3: I should have gotten the fanny pack.

786
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:52,200
Speaker 2: I knew I should have gotten the fanny pack instead,

787
00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:55,839
Speaker 2: but I got the back on just because uh not

788
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 2: because of Luigi, though now it's ruined.

789
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:00,799
Speaker 3: Okay, great, Well, you know what one thing that I

790
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 3: did too is so I have I have an Android

791
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:06,839
Speaker 3: phone and an Apple phone. I have two phones, right,

792
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 3: and I last night, no, the night before last, when

793
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:12,880
Speaker 3: we were talking about this. Last we were talking about

794
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:15,319
Speaker 3: I don't know anybody's phone number. So you know what

795
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 3: I did, ye, I didn't wait to hauld down because

796
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:21,040
Speaker 3: I will lose the list in an apocalypse. Okay, I'm

797
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:22,799
Speaker 3: telling you right now, I'm gonna lose ells. So what

798
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:25,759
Speaker 3: I did was I saved all my contacts to my

799
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:27,120
Speaker 3: phone instead of the cloud.

800
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:29,520
Speaker 4: What does that mean?

801
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:30,440
Speaker 3: Smart?

802
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:32,839
Speaker 2: So even if you don't have Wi Fi, I need

803
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:33,800
Speaker 2: a whole dissertation.

804
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:36,160
Speaker 3: I know I'm not known in this How do I

805
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:37,479
Speaker 3: do that? What does that even mean?

806
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:40,760
Speaker 2: How do I not die and know how to connect

807
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 2: with people from a distance?

808
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 4: Or like where do you say that? Like notes?

809
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 3: Or just because it's I did it on my Android.

810
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:52,000
Speaker 3: That's why I mentioned on my Android. So my iCloud

811
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:54,600
Speaker 3: stuff is still all in the cloud on my on

812
00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 3: my iPhone, but on my Android, I saved them all locally,

813
00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:01,560
Speaker 3: because you can save them your phone the device, or

814
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:03,440
Speaker 3: you can save them to the cloud. What the hell

815
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 3: did you saved? That's the biggest crime I want to

816
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 3: know is all about the.

817
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:11,520
Speaker 4: Cloud.

818
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 2: Who's like making our clones as we speak? But what

819
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:14,839
Speaker 2: does that mean?

820
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:15,520
Speaker 3: Yes?

821
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:17,279
Speaker 2: I actually wrote them down and I put it on

822
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:20,759
Speaker 2: like my bulletin board. And you know, the more you

823
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 2: write it, the more you remember it.

824
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:23,799
Speaker 3: Kind of the thing we know. What you could do

825
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:25,759
Speaker 3: is now that you have the Faraday bag then you

826
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:27,799
Speaker 3: wrote them down, is take a picture of what you

827
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:28,400
Speaker 3: wrote down.

828
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:31,799
Speaker 2: My phone, not my actual phone, but if it's out

829
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:35,440
Speaker 2: of power, because it's I've been on the run.

830
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:38,200
Speaker 3: I mean I have mine, which grants it.

831
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:41,080
Speaker 5: You know, may lose your wallet, But again I do

832
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 5: have mine, those five phone numbers written down?

833
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:46,440
Speaker 3: Do you a hard copy in my wallet?

834
00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:46,799
Speaker 4: Yes?

835
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 3: I have your phone numbers written down?

836
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:53,839
Speaker 2: Every single person whose eyes I'm locking eyes with right now,

837
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:55,320
Speaker 2: all your.

838
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 3: Phone numbers down?

839
00:45:56,200 --> 00:46:00,360
Speaker 7: Yes, and honest and finding it, like, let's that's in

840
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:02,200
Speaker 7: my wallet which I don't have right now?

841
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:05,920
Speaker 4: If something weird happened, I need it, Like there.

842
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:12,560
Speaker 3: We need walkie talkies walk talkieses? Why do I only

843
00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:13,239
Speaker 3: have two of them?

844
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:13,440
Speaker 10: Though?

845
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:15,680
Speaker 3: Which is not so? I don't know how far I

846
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:19,520
Speaker 3: don't know how you giving I have two? Who am

847
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 3: I going to give that my brother?

848
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:20,880
Speaker 11: Maybe?

849
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 3: I don't know. Probably I'm going to give it to

850
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:26,759
Speaker 3: you guys. How how am I going to get to you? Well,

851
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:29,040
Speaker 3: I guess the walkie talkies don't go state to state right?

852
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 11: How far?

853
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 3: I mean? When we need anybody need.

854
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:34,400
Speaker 2: My fellow preppers, When I need a ham writing, my

855
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:37,000
Speaker 2: doomsday algorithm.

856
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 3: Tells me that there's a very great range. Do you

857
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 3: guys know how to do S O S at least

858
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:41,320
Speaker 3: some morse code?

859
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:48,320
Speaker 4: I do know that one dot? But where do I

860
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:49,399
Speaker 4: do that? Where?

861
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:56,480
Speaker 3: When you you ham radio hand rating? We got a

862
00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:59,879
Speaker 3: big list of things. We will clarify all of them

863
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:02,839
Speaker 3: in the meantime.

864
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:07,000
Speaker 5: Coming up, we have former Family Court judge Michelle Locke

865
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 5: who is joining us to explain what judges really see

866
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:12,560
Speaker 5: in domestic balance and child abuse cases.

867
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:14,240
Speaker 3: Keep it here at True Crime Tonight.

868
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:28,640
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

869
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:31,520
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with

870
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:35,279
Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong and body move in and we have the

871
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:39,200
Speaker 2: most extraordinary guest. We have a judge, a former judge

872
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 2: in the house also an attorney who specializes in family law.

873
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:46,880
Speaker 2: And if anybody has dealt with family law in any way,

874
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:50,480
Speaker 2: you know how hard it is. It's a really complicated system.

875
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:53,640
Speaker 2: It varies from state to state, and we've been conferring

876
00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 2: so many cases really quite recently where family dynamics are

877
00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:02,839
Speaker 2: so in play or break up or domestic violence, and

878
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:05,239
Speaker 2: you know, we get these questions quite a bit. So

879
00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:09,240
Speaker 2: Michelle Locke, welcome. We're so happy that you're here.

880
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:11,120
Speaker 3: You know, worth noting that.

881
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:15,520
Speaker 2: Michelle specifically is out of Austin, Texas, but she's here

882
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 2: to answer any questions should you have any if you're

883
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:23,520
Speaker 2: going through a split or you're headed to family court,

884
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 2: and feel free to call us eight eight eight three

885
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:30,880
Speaker 2: one crime because you know, look, Michelle, we talked about this,

886
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:34,560
Speaker 2: you know when we first met that the statistics are

887
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:39,200
Speaker 2: pretty staggering. When there's domestic violence, for example, and you know,

888
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:42,560
Speaker 2: one person in the relationships makes the decision to leave,

889
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:46,719
Speaker 2: that is the most you know, really dangerous time. And

890
00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:50,799
Speaker 2: it's typically women, but definitely men as well, but you know,

891
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:54,240
Speaker 2: for women, it's the most dangerous time in a person's

892
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:57,440
Speaker 2: life when you're actually making that decision to exit a

893
00:48:57,520 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 2: potentially very dangerous relationship. And I know for many leaving

894
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:05,919
Speaker 2: your kids and the parenting and upsetting the children, that's

895
00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:08,960
Speaker 2: all so much a piece of it. And I hear

896
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:10,799
Speaker 2: it all the time, and we cover so many cases

897
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:12,600
Speaker 2: where they're like, well, the judge might not believe me,

898
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 2: or they don't know the story and the sneaking suspicion

899
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:20,000
Speaker 2: that Michelle Locke can see through all of it. So

900
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 2: we're so happy to have you here to just sench

901
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:27,080
Speaker 2: some insight and for anyone who's going through these scary times,

902
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:30,080
Speaker 2: just know that it's going to be okay. And Michelle

903
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:33,520
Speaker 2: is the person to direct any questions too, So welcome.

904
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:34,440
Speaker 3: Okay.

905
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:38,680
Speaker 5: I have one question, Michelle, and that is can we

906
00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:41,320
Speaker 5: actually call you Michelle in the presence of a judge.

907
00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:45,560
Speaker 5: I want to say, Matt judge Michelle made secretary.

908
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:46,919
Speaker 3: No, I'm so.

909
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:47,520
Speaker 9: Important, y'all.

910
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:51,839
Speaker 11: I'm I'm Jess Michelle. I know one of the things

911
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:53,439
Speaker 11: when I became a judge, and I became a judge

912
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:55,920
Speaker 11: the first time at thirty one, oh, I was for

913
00:49:56,440 --> 00:49:59,479
Speaker 11: the black robe would never affect me because I didn't

914
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:01,960
Speaker 11: want to lose is who I was the person to

915
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:05,920
Speaker 11: what we sometimes refer to as a black robitis. I

916
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:09,080
Speaker 11: have a firm belief in life that we all bleed red,

917
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:12,200
Speaker 11: we're all the same, and that we all have different

918
00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:16,399
Speaker 11: roles in this world to serve, and whatever that role

919
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:19,080
Speaker 11: is doesn't mean we are any better or any less

920
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:20,160
Speaker 11: than any other person.

921
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:22,080
Speaker 4: So please, I.

922
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:27,799
Speaker 3: Am just Michelle. I'm not just Michelle. Yeah, I.

923
00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:34,120
Speaker 2: Can somehow see the TV show already. Well, yeah, it's

924
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:37,279
Speaker 2: a complicated thing. So where should we begin. We know

925
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:40,560
Speaker 2: you've seen so much, and certainly in your own courtroom

926
00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:43,719
Speaker 2: and as an attorney, and you know, listen, in our

927
00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:46,680
Speaker 2: own lives. We see this real time, whether personally or

928
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:50,960
Speaker 2: with friends. It's such an aggravating element when mom and

929
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:55,240
Speaker 2: dad are, you know, breaking up or at each other's throats,

930
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:57,080
Speaker 2: and when we all say, oh, I take a bullet

931
00:50:57,120 --> 00:50:59,640
Speaker 2: for my child, but yet you can't be in the

932
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:03,280
Speaker 2: same room with their parents, you know, like it's it's tough.

933
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:09,360
Speaker 11: It's an impossible situation. Where there is love, there is divorce,

934
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 11: there are breakups. That's just the reality of it. You

935
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:14,759
Speaker 11: look at the statistics fifty percent of first marriages and

936
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:17,880
Speaker 11: in divorce, and I think the statistics only get higher

937
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:21,520
Speaker 11: for every subsequent marriage. After that, you add in step

938
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:28,080
Speaker 11: kids and other dynamics, and it is made for disaster,

939
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:31,799
Speaker 11: whether it's well intentioned or not. And the kids are

940
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:34,080
Speaker 11: the ones that are suffering. And what the parents who

941
00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:38,920
Speaker 11: are engaged in this like just lockdown war don't realize

942
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:42,000
Speaker 11: that these children didn't ask to be born into the situation.

943
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:45,240
Speaker 11: They just ask to have two parents not get along

944
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:47,759
Speaker 11: in the way that they do. They didn't ask for it.

945
00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:50,040
Speaker 11: And so a lot of times, even just my own clients,

946
00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:53,920
Speaker 11: I tell them, like, look, y'all are adults. Deal with

947
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:56,920
Speaker 11: your stuff that. Let the kids have their Christmases, let

948
00:51:56,960 --> 00:51:59,920
Speaker 11: them have their Halloweens, let them have their birthday. Part

949
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:02,560
Speaker 11: is where both of you can suck it up and

950
00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:05,920
Speaker 11: attend so that the kids don't suffer because it's their

951
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:10,280
Speaker 11: childhood and their memories that you're destroying. Yours my already

952
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:13,320
Speaker 11: been bad. Don't create another generation of it. Put it aside.

953
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:14,200
Speaker 11: We're all grown up.

954
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:19,799
Speaker 5: Right, said very well, sir good during your time on

955
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:22,560
Speaker 5: the bench, So can you explain sort of some of

956
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:26,239
Speaker 5: the biggest warning signs that you've seen in custod disputes,

957
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:30,120
Speaker 5: particularly before things may be escalated into violence.

958
00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:33,800
Speaker 11: So so I'm going to tell you number one, a

959
00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:38,400
Speaker 11: substance abuse. I can't tell you how often in domestic

960
00:52:38,440 --> 00:52:42,200
Speaker 11: violence cases there are one or two items involved. One

961
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:47,000
Speaker 11: is alcohol and two is cocaine. And I can tell

962
00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:51,400
Speaker 11: you about eighty percent of cases involved some kind of

963
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:55,239
Speaker 11: alcohol cacaine. The other one is steroids. Believe it or not. Wow,

964
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:58,600
Speaker 11: that's also the one that causes anger occasionally and the

965
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:02,480
Speaker 11: people that use the steroids, right, And so, no, it's

966
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:06,040
Speaker 11: a thing, it's a thing. And so really there's a

967
00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:08,680
Speaker 11: multitude of things that judges will look at, even attorneys

968
00:53:08,680 --> 00:53:11,719
Speaker 11: when we analyze the cases. But it's drug use, it's

969
00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:16,839
Speaker 11: alcohol use, steroid use, any kind of behavior that's outside

970
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:20,440
Speaker 11: the relative norm. One thing I know I always listened

971
00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:22,520
Speaker 11: for when I was a judgement I warned my clients

972
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:25,520
Speaker 11: about this too, is never referred to your child as

973
00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:30,440
Speaker 11: my The one, they're not a possession. And two unless

974
00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:32,920
Speaker 11: it was a maculus conception.

975
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:33,879
Speaker 3: It took too.

976
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:43,080
Speaker 11: So that's usually when people start making children possessions in court,

977
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:44,840
Speaker 11: usually a warning sign.

978
00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:49,040
Speaker 3: So substance abuse and possessive possessiveness, right, those would be

979
00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:52,759
Speaker 3: a couple of That's so for people who might not

980
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:57,520
Speaker 3: understand how like the system, like the big bad system works,

981
00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:03,320
Speaker 3: what actually, uh, what actually triggers like CPS Child Protective

982
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:07,000
Speaker 3: Services to remove a child from the home.

983
00:54:08,520 --> 00:54:12,200
Speaker 11: Great question, that's a great question. It really is. I

984
00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:14,600
Speaker 11: was for a period of time at CPS judge, and

985
00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:18,719
Speaker 11: so I saw and actually signed the affidavits and the

986
00:54:19,239 --> 00:54:22,160
Speaker 11: temporary retraining orders or the temporary takeout orders that would

987
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:25,600
Speaker 11: pull kids from homes. And it's a really really really

988
00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:28,719
Speaker 11: high standard, particularly in Texas that our deserve. It's about

989
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:32,040
Speaker 11: the same everywhere else because you're removing someone's child from

990
00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:35,680
Speaker 11: their home, and so the allegations have to be pretty severe,

991
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:39,279
Speaker 11: and it has to be that if the child's in

992
00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:43,320
Speaker 11: imminent danger, so their witnessing. One of the reasons CPS

993
00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:46,720
Speaker 11: for moves a lot is domestic violence. If domestic violence

994
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:49,839
Speaker 11: is occurring in front of the child, that is quite

995
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:53,520
Speaker 11: often grounds for CPS to step in. Law enforcement, well

996
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:56,719
Speaker 11: quite often flagged the CPS. Hey, y'all need to go

997
00:54:56,800 --> 00:55:00,840
Speaker 11: check out this case. If you've got major di some issues,

998
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:04,440
Speaker 11: then you've got medical providers that are under obligation and

999
00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:10,600
Speaker 11: mandatory reporters as right, and so what other people tend

1000
00:55:10,640 --> 00:55:15,040
Speaker 11: to forget are that most professionals are mandatory reporters. Even

1001
00:55:15,080 --> 00:55:17,759
Speaker 11: as a lawyer, I'm a mandatory reporter, and if I

1002
00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:21,680
Speaker 11: don't report suspected child abuse or suspected elder abuse, I

1003
00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:24,640
Speaker 11: can have my license in trouble. And so when you've

1004
00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:27,640
Speaker 11: got anyone that runs into a family that sees the

1005
00:55:27,680 --> 00:55:32,600
Speaker 11: potential for a child to be in danger, than those

1006
00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:37,799
Speaker 11: professionals under obligation as teachers, counselors, principles, your dentist, your

1007
00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:39,799
Speaker 11: eye doctor. Like if you're going into your eye doctor

1008
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:42,000
Speaker 11: and your child's got two black eyes and a broken

1009
00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:44,840
Speaker 11: orbital socket, I can assure you that eye doctor is

1010
00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:46,200
Speaker 11: going to cause call CPS.

1011
00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:48,279
Speaker 3: Wow wow, you know.

1012
00:55:51,239 --> 00:55:53,760
Speaker 11: Yeah, And so people think we'll have the CPS get involved.

1013
00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:57,480
Speaker 11: Often time to get involved without you being involved in

1014
00:55:57,520 --> 00:56:00,799
Speaker 11: them getting involved, And it's almost always a professes That's

1015
00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:06,440
Speaker 11: why you will find that CPS investigations increase when school

1016
00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:08,000
Speaker 11: comes back in the session.

1017
00:56:08,239 --> 00:56:13,080
Speaker 3: Because teachers, right, teachers and our mandated reporters, and they

1018
00:56:13,120 --> 00:56:15,720
Speaker 3: spend so much time with our kids, right, they spend

1019
00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:18,640
Speaker 3: so much time with our kids outside of the whole

1020
00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:22,560
Speaker 3: new they're probably the number one people that And that's

1021
00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:24,439
Speaker 3: why I remember we were talking about that one case

1022
00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:27,279
Speaker 3: where the kid was getting homeschooled and they didn't even

1023
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:29,040
Speaker 3: know she was missing.

1024
00:56:29,239 --> 00:56:32,880
Speaker 2: Melody, And yeah, we talked about her earlier. Yeah, Melody

1025
00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:34,320
Speaker 2: Messards who lost your life?

1026
00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:37,760
Speaker 3: Right? And you know, homeschooling is a way to to

1027
00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:42,719
Speaker 3: you know, basically not not come in contact with mandated reporters. Right.

1028
00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:46,160
Speaker 2: And so we get this so often too, because again,

1029
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:48,799
Speaker 2: people reach out, you know, they're in need, or they're

1030
00:56:48,840 --> 00:56:51,840
Speaker 2: in crisis, or they're afraid for their safety and they

1031
00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:54,239
Speaker 2: don't want to leave their kids or their pets, and

1032
00:56:54,520 --> 00:56:57,960
Speaker 2: they don't have a lot of resources to go anywhere.

1033
00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:00,359
Speaker 2: So you know, look, whoever has the cash kind of

1034
00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:03,720
Speaker 2: you know, holds the purse a little bit in terms

1035
00:57:03,719 --> 00:57:06,879
Speaker 2: of who's calling the shots sometimes and certainly who can

1036
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:10,680
Speaker 2: pay for an attorney, right, And that gets really troubling.

1037
00:57:10,800 --> 00:57:14,600
Speaker 2: And I'm just gonna say, oh, in a woman's case,

1038
00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:17,120
Speaker 2: but of course this happens for men as well. So

1039
00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:20,720
Speaker 2: we're being very clear here. This is not just you know,

1040
00:57:21,200 --> 00:57:24,080
Speaker 2: of dads versus moms. But what I can speak to

1041
00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:26,840
Speaker 2: anecdotally is you know, as a mom, you just you

1042
00:57:27,080 --> 00:57:32,000
Speaker 2: never would want your child's consistent daily life to be disrupted, right,

1043
00:57:32,080 --> 00:57:35,560
Speaker 2: You don't want to disappoint the little framework that your

1044
00:57:35,680 --> 00:57:38,720
Speaker 2: job is to set out to keep them safe in

1045
00:57:38,760 --> 00:57:41,400
Speaker 2: the world, and you know, take the hitch that you

1046
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:44,520
Speaker 2: have to. What do you suggest for people who are

1047
00:57:44,720 --> 00:57:47,240
Speaker 2: maybe a little bit out of cash or don't have

1048
00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:51,320
Speaker 2: the resources to pay for a very you know, pay.

1049
00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:51,840
Speaker 3: For an attorney.

1050
00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:55,160
Speaker 2: It's so expensive these days, and they need help and

1051
00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:58,520
Speaker 2: they need to get out of an abusive relationship, not

1052
00:57:58,560 --> 00:58:00,880
Speaker 2: only for themselves but for their safe of their kids.

1053
00:58:01,680 --> 00:58:03,760
Speaker 2: Is there a step one? Is there a hotline? Like

1054
00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:04,800
Speaker 2: what would you recommend?

1055
00:58:06,120 --> 00:58:06,320
Speaker 3: Oh?

1056
00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:09,680
Speaker 11: Got hotlines? Probably not, But I'm telling you, if you're

1057
00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:13,440
Speaker 11: a victim of domestic violent about everywhere in the country

1058
00:58:14,040 --> 00:58:18,160
Speaker 11: have either the criminal prosecuting office or county attorney's District

1059
00:58:18,160 --> 00:58:22,200
Speaker 11: Attorney's office provide protective orders for free. And so if

1060
00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:24,720
Speaker 11: you are victim of domestic violence, you can call your

1061
00:58:24,960 --> 00:58:27,560
Speaker 11: local and literally, if anyone has a phone, just google

1062
00:58:27,840 --> 00:58:29,560
Speaker 11: where do I get a protective order of my county

1063
00:58:29,760 --> 00:58:32,280
Speaker 11: or my city, and it'll give you the information of

1064
00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:34,200
Speaker 11: where you can go get one. You can go to

1065
00:58:34,240 --> 00:58:35,920
Speaker 11: your local library. If you want an access to a

1066
00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:37,520
Speaker 11: cell phone, you can go to your local library. And

1067
00:58:37,560 --> 00:58:39,959
Speaker 11: do the same thing on the Google there and it'll

1068
00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:42,400
Speaker 11: give you who you can call, and that is free.

1069
00:58:43,160 --> 00:58:46,360
Speaker 11: There are also lots of free legal services ones for

1070
00:58:46,520 --> 00:58:50,080
Speaker 11: victims of domestic violence. Specifically I Know and Austin we've

1071
00:58:50,120 --> 00:58:53,240
Speaker 11: got volunteer legal services where attorneys like me donate our

1072
00:58:53,280 --> 00:58:57,280
Speaker 11: time to help people that need and can't afford services.

1073
00:58:57,320 --> 00:59:00,720
Speaker 11: And so the services are there, you just have to

1074
00:59:01,800 --> 00:59:05,600
Speaker 11: have the courage to call and reach out, which sometimes

1075
00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:08,720
Speaker 11: is the scariest part of it. And what I often

1076
00:59:08,840 --> 00:59:13,160
Speaker 11: tell people that are victims is you think your kids

1077
00:59:13,160 --> 00:59:15,200
Speaker 11: are safe where they're at because you some now control

1078
00:59:15,240 --> 00:59:18,800
Speaker 11: the environment. But the reality is is they're not because

1079
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:22,840
Speaker 11: they're witnessing what We'll stay with them forever. And the

1080
00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:26,680
Speaker 11: beautiful part about children is they are resilient, and so

1081
00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:29,040
Speaker 11: you get them in a safe place. They you get

1082
00:59:29,040 --> 00:59:31,080
Speaker 11: them in a place where they know mom is safe.

1083
00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:34,200
Speaker 11: Because don't think for a second those kids don't know

1084
00:59:34,200 --> 00:59:36,760
Speaker 11: what's going on and the realities of it. But you

1085
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:38,720
Speaker 11: get them in a place where they feel safe and

1086
00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:40,959
Speaker 11: they know mom is safe or no data is safe,

1087
00:59:40,960 --> 00:59:44,640
Speaker 11: whoever the victim is. It's amazing how much better they

1088
00:59:44,640 --> 00:59:49,560
Speaker 11: start doing because peace. It's such a cliche piece is priceless.

1089
00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:50,920
Speaker 11: But Lord have mercy, it.

1090
00:59:50,880 --> 00:59:57,280
Speaker 3: Is so well said. Oh man, So here's a tough question.

1091
00:59:57,400 --> 00:59:58,040
Speaker 3: It seems to me.

1092
00:59:58,640 --> 01:00:04,080
Speaker 5: How do judges sort of balance protecting children while also

1093
01:00:04,320 --> 01:00:07,240
Speaker 5: respecting parental rights in these complicated cases.

1094
01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:12,200
Speaker 3: M that's a good one. Oh, it's hard. We have

1095
01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:12,880
Speaker 3: so hard.

1096
01:00:12,920 --> 01:00:16,720
Speaker 11: It's a hard one. It's hard. We have a constitutional

1097
01:00:16,800 --> 01:00:20,320
Speaker 11: right to parent our children, whether that's good parenting or

1098
01:00:20,360 --> 01:00:23,520
Speaker 11: bad parenting. Anyone that's divorce will know that they can't

1099
01:00:23,560 --> 01:00:26,320
Speaker 11: help the bad parenting that their co parent does that

1100
01:00:26,360 --> 01:00:28,440
Speaker 11: they want to or not. A lot of people stay

1101
01:00:28,520 --> 01:00:31,280
Speaker 11: married because they think they can control more of their

1102
01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:34,320
Speaker 11: children's environment, as opposed to if they go to dads

1103
01:00:34,360 --> 01:00:39,440
Speaker 11: or moms on the weekend. That being said, I know

1104
01:00:39,640 --> 01:00:42,400
Speaker 11: there were cases that I lost sleepover with regards to

1105
01:00:42,560 --> 01:00:45,600
Speaker 11: removing the children, not removing the children. But y'all, there

1106
01:00:45,640 --> 01:00:49,200
Speaker 11: are some cases that are so clear cut on removing

1107
01:00:49,240 --> 01:00:52,320
Speaker 11: the kids that it's it's a no brainer. I mean,

1108
01:00:52,440 --> 01:00:59,560
Speaker 11: there are some cases that the abuse is astonishing. I mean,

1109
01:00:59,600 --> 01:01:03,680
Speaker 11: these oldren are used as ash trace, their parents are

1110
01:01:03,720 --> 01:01:06,800
Speaker 11: put out cigarette. I had one case where there was

1111
01:01:07,080 --> 01:01:12,880
Speaker 11: a year old baby that weighs sixteen pounds. They're horrific cases.

1112
01:01:13,080 --> 01:01:18,440
Speaker 11: And so in some circumstances it's really easy. It's really easy,

1113
01:01:19,400 --> 01:01:21,440
Speaker 11: and other ones it's not so much. So, but I

1114
01:01:21,440 --> 01:01:26,680
Speaker 11: would like to say that, yeah, y'all, CPS is a

1115
01:01:26,720 --> 01:01:32,200
Speaker 11: miserable job. They see the worst of the worst, and

1116
01:01:32,280 --> 01:01:37,320
Speaker 11: they see these innocent, sweet babies who have broken arm fractures,

1117
01:01:37,360 --> 01:01:39,880
Speaker 11: are healing, broken rib fractures that are healing, a broken

1118
01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:43,840
Speaker 11: ortal socket that's healing. The stuff that you see is

1119
01:01:44,080 --> 01:01:48,320
Speaker 11: just horrific, and thank goodness, we have the good people.

1120
01:01:48,400 --> 01:01:50,920
Speaker 11: But y'all, CPS is just like any other human, just

1121
01:01:50,960 --> 01:01:53,560
Speaker 11: like judges. They sometimes I get it wrong, and I

1122
01:01:53,600 --> 01:01:56,400
Speaker 11: know I've told CPS from the bench and like, when

1123
01:01:56,440 --> 01:01:58,720
Speaker 11: something happens that baby because you all didn't remove it

1124
01:01:58,760 --> 01:02:01,440
Speaker 11: and left it with that another that's on you and

1125
01:02:01,800 --> 01:02:03,720
Speaker 11: on that stick. Okay, I think CPS went back in

1126
01:02:03,720 --> 01:02:05,280
Speaker 11: and looked at the case and said, yeah, the judge

1127
01:02:05,280 --> 01:02:07,880
Speaker 11: may be right on this one. The times you just

1128
01:02:07,960 --> 01:02:09,400
Speaker 11: got to follow your gut instinct.

1129
01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:13,600
Speaker 3: But it's it's it is a last resort though, to

1130
01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:17,520
Speaker 3: remove children from the home, right, Like it's still but

1131
01:02:17,520 --> 01:02:20,440
Speaker 3: but again, if like if it's clear, I think that

1132
01:02:21,080 --> 01:02:25,880
Speaker 3: it's not so hard, right, Like it's easy to do.

1133
01:02:27,280 --> 01:02:30,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like the kids still love their parents, even if

1134
01:02:30,440 --> 01:02:31,160
Speaker 2: they're abusive.

1135
01:02:31,280 --> 01:02:32,720
Speaker 3: Sometimes kids still love them.

1136
01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:36,280
Speaker 2: So I'm sure you must hear such mixed messages.

1137
01:02:38,240 --> 01:02:38,520
Speaker 3: Of course.

1138
01:02:38,600 --> 01:02:42,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, this is all complicated, and we are so happy

1139
01:02:42,480 --> 01:02:47,320
Speaker 5: that you are here, Judge Michelle Locke, and stick around,

1140
01:02:47,520 --> 01:02:51,200
Speaker 5: because Michelle will be sticking around. We're gonna we're gonna

1141
01:02:51,240 --> 01:02:54,120
Speaker 5: take a little look into the Colin Gray school shooting

1142
01:02:54,240 --> 01:02:59,520
Speaker 5: case and also the question of parental responsibility. And if

1143
01:02:59,520 --> 01:03:03,760
Speaker 5: you have any questions for Judge Michelle Locke, give us

1144
01:03:03,800 --> 01:03:07,040
Speaker 5: a call eight eight eight three one crime. We'd love

1145
01:03:07,080 --> 01:03:09,400
Speaker 5: to hear them. Keep it here True Crime Tonight. We're

1146
01:03:09,400 --> 01:03:10,920
Speaker 5: talking true crime all the time.

1147
01:03:21,280 --> 01:03:24,080
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight and iHeartRadio. We're talking

1148
01:03:24,080 --> 01:03:26,920
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Steph here with Courtney,

1149
01:03:27,040 --> 01:03:31,880
Speaker 2: here with body, and we have judge, former Judge Michelle Locke,

1150
01:03:32,040 --> 01:03:35,520
Speaker 2: who is here to answer any questions about cases that

1151
01:03:35,560 --> 01:03:39,880
Speaker 2: we're working on and have been discussing that really involve

1152
01:03:40,160 --> 01:03:43,080
Speaker 2: mom and dad really not being on the same page.

1153
01:03:43,520 --> 01:03:45,920
Speaker 3: We actually have a caller right now, Blake. Welcome to

1154
01:03:45,960 --> 01:03:46,360
Speaker 3: the show.

1155
01:03:48,240 --> 01:03:50,200
Speaker 12: Hi, thank you for having me I'm a huge fan.

1156
01:03:50,960 --> 01:03:53,880
Speaker 2: Of course you have a question for Michelle. We assume

1157
01:03:54,760 --> 01:03:57,760
Speaker 2: Michelle will let you have it. Go ahead, Blake, tell

1158
01:03:57,760 --> 01:03:58,280
Speaker 2: her everything.

1159
01:03:58,840 --> 01:04:03,920
Speaker 12: Yes, thank you. So I'm currently going through a family

1160
01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:08,800
Speaker 12: court matter. Unfortunately, me and the mother were both victims

1161
01:04:08,880 --> 01:04:14,640
Speaker 12: of domestic violence, so d c YS got involved and

1162
01:04:15,720 --> 01:04:19,440
Speaker 12: the custody of our child was handed over to d

1163
01:04:19,560 --> 01:04:24,080
Speaker 12: c y S. We're currently going through family court to

1164
01:04:24,280 --> 01:04:30,720
Speaker 12: speed up reunification to have the child back into our custody.

1165
01:04:31,720 --> 01:04:35,320
Speaker 12: Our daughter, she is a year and a half years old,

1166
01:04:35,640 --> 01:04:41,560
Speaker 12: and she is currently placed with foster parents, my grandparents.

1167
01:04:42,120 --> 01:04:45,360
Speaker 12: She is living there now. I just had a question

1168
01:04:46,600 --> 01:04:53,080
Speaker 12: regarding the judge. The judge is requiring re revisit a

1169
01:04:53,160 --> 01:04:57,560
Speaker 12: week with our daughter from me and my mother. She

1170
01:04:57,840 --> 01:05:03,000
Speaker 12: is currently diagnosed with a heart condition, and I have

1171
01:05:03,160 --> 01:05:09,640
Speaker 12: a form from her doctor stating that hyperventilating aka crying

1172
01:05:10,760 --> 01:05:18,480
Speaker 12: could cause life threatening consequences regarding her heart condition, and

1173
01:05:19,080 --> 01:05:22,120
Speaker 12: I have made aware of this to the judge and

1174
01:05:22,200 --> 01:05:26,680
Speaker 12: to d c y F. She gets very upset when

1175
01:05:27,600 --> 01:05:33,520
Speaker 12: she is around strangers, specifically the people that conduct these visits,

1176
01:05:34,640 --> 01:05:37,640
Speaker 12: and I just I just had a question, is this

1177
01:05:37,800 --> 01:05:40,680
Speaker 12: child and the are bey putting my child in danger

1178
01:05:40,920 --> 01:05:45,800
Speaker 12: by ignoring these concerns from the doctor and for myself

1179
01:05:45,960 --> 01:05:50,120
Speaker 12: and from the foster parents that they are forcing these

1180
01:05:50,200 --> 01:05:54,720
Speaker 12: these visits on us and making my daughter suffer and

1181
01:05:54,800 --> 01:05:58,320
Speaker 12: cry because she does not know these people.

1182
01:06:00,240 --> 01:06:04,600
Speaker 3: Oh, thank you. Question question Blake, Yeah, Nike with you, Blake.

1183
01:06:07,560 --> 01:06:11,560
Speaker 11: That is such a tough question when you're dealing with

1184
01:06:11,600 --> 01:06:16,600
Speaker 11: a medically complex child because that completely changes the nature

1185
01:06:16,600 --> 01:06:19,680
Speaker 11: of the case from the judicial perspective and even from

1186
01:06:19,800 --> 01:06:23,120
Speaker 11: how it's handled within the system itself. And so the

1187
01:06:23,440 --> 01:06:25,760
Speaker 11: one of the best advice that I can give you

1188
01:06:25,800 --> 01:06:29,160
Speaker 11: is you need to follow the judges instructions to a key.

1189
01:06:29,880 --> 01:06:33,840
Speaker 11: The general rule of thumb for young children is that

1190
01:06:34,040 --> 01:06:38,440
Speaker 11: frequent and consistent contact is necessary with a parent to

1191
01:06:38,680 --> 01:06:43,360
Speaker 11: ensure that that relationship forms a healthy, natural bond when

1192
01:06:43,400 --> 01:06:46,360
Speaker 11: you've got a child that's been removed, and so those

1193
01:06:46,760 --> 01:06:49,439
Speaker 11: the three visits a week are going to be what

1194
01:06:49,600 --> 01:06:51,800
Speaker 11: the court has been trained and what everyone has been

1195
01:06:51,840 --> 01:06:55,120
Speaker 11: trained to understand that is a frequent and consistent contact

1196
01:06:55,160 --> 01:06:58,720
Speaker 11: with the child to ensure that bond is maintained so

1197
01:06:58,760 --> 01:07:02,160
Speaker 11: that they can be you FI ultimately, which is the

1198
01:07:02,160 --> 01:07:04,320
Speaker 11: goal of CPS and the court. So typically is to

1199
01:07:04,360 --> 01:07:07,840
Speaker 11: reunify unless they can't. So it is good that they

1200
01:07:07,840 --> 01:07:12,560
Speaker 11: are saying yes, reunifying, Yes, have three consistent visits a week.

1201
01:07:12,800 --> 01:07:15,200
Speaker 11: It's also important to note that the first thing they did,

1202
01:07:15,280 --> 01:07:17,240
Speaker 11: it looks like, was do a family placement. So the

1203
01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:20,920
Speaker 11: child is i think, placed with grandparents, which is a

1204
01:07:20,960 --> 01:07:23,760
Speaker 11: great place. You'd rather than be placed with family than

1205
01:07:23,800 --> 01:07:28,040
Speaker 11: outside of family. And so while it is difficult to

1206
01:07:28,160 --> 01:07:31,480
Speaker 11: go through, make sure you follow the court orders because

1207
01:07:31,520 --> 01:07:33,400
Speaker 11: the fastest way to get your child back is to

1208
01:07:33,400 --> 01:07:35,640
Speaker 11: make the court happy and make the people that are

1209
01:07:35,680 --> 01:07:39,000
Speaker 11: supervising it happy, and then to make sure you can

1210
01:07:39,240 --> 01:07:40,480
Speaker 11: keep that bond with your child.

1211
01:07:42,280 --> 01:07:46,520
Speaker 3: That's right, Thank you judge, Judge Michelle, and thank you

1212
01:07:46,560 --> 01:07:48,800
Speaker 3: Blake for the call. I will wish you lots of love.

1213
01:07:49,280 --> 01:07:49,440
Speaker 4: Right.

1214
01:07:49,520 --> 01:07:54,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a good book. We wanted to talk about

1215
01:07:54,240 --> 01:07:55,120
Speaker 3: Colin Gray.

1216
01:07:56,920 --> 01:07:59,640
Speaker 5: So it's a case that's been raising some really major

1217
01:07:59,720 --> 01:08:01,160
Speaker 5: legal questions right now.

1218
01:08:01,840 --> 01:08:03,960
Speaker 3: And if you're not.

1219
01:08:04,000 --> 01:08:09,960
Speaker 5: Familiar, what Georgia prosecutors are saying is that father Colin

1220
01:08:10,040 --> 01:08:13,439
Speaker 5: Gray ignored warning signs about his fourteen year old son.

1221
01:08:14,040 --> 01:08:17,600
Speaker 5: His fourteen year old son later allegedly carried out a

1222
01:08:17,640 --> 01:08:18,800
Speaker 5: school shooting.

1223
01:08:18,479 --> 01:08:19,840
Speaker 3: That left poor people dead.

1224
01:08:20,560 --> 01:08:23,760
Speaker 5: Investigators say the team had access to the rifle use

1225
01:08:23,800 --> 01:08:26,720
Speaker 5: in an attack because the father gave it to him,

1226
01:08:26,880 --> 01:08:28,760
Speaker 5: and the case now has We've been talked about it

1227
01:08:28,800 --> 01:08:32,920
Speaker 5: for a while, you know, national conversation about parental responsibility

1228
01:08:33,640 --> 01:08:38,639
Speaker 5: when a minor commits a violent crime. So, Judge Michelle Lucke,

1229
01:08:39,439 --> 01:08:41,880
Speaker 5: in a situation like this, how does the legal system

1230
01:08:42,040 --> 01:08:47,160
Speaker 5: evaluate that parental responsibility when a minor commits a violent act?

1231
01:08:49,479 --> 01:08:51,479
Speaker 11: Well, that's such a good question, and I'm going to

1232
01:08:51,520 --> 01:08:53,400
Speaker 11: talk about what I know the state of Texas, and

1233
01:08:53,439 --> 01:08:56,519
Speaker 11: the state of Texas has something called the law of party,

1234
01:08:57,280 --> 01:09:00,320
Speaker 11: And what the law parties mean is that if you

1235
01:09:00,360 --> 01:09:04,560
Speaker 11: are with someone and you know that person a reasonably,

1236
01:09:04,680 --> 01:09:07,839
Speaker 11: that person's committed felony and you go with that person,

1237
01:09:08,200 --> 01:09:10,799
Speaker 11: that you are guilty of the same level offense. Okay,

1238
01:09:10,880 --> 01:09:12,720
Speaker 11: that's just how the law in Texas worked. I'm a

1239
01:09:12,760 --> 01:09:15,920
Speaker 11: super George. Is this other statement similar? And I actually

1240
01:09:16,000 --> 01:09:20,640
Speaker 11: listened to Colin Gray's daughter's testimony, general daughter who's in

1241
01:09:20,680 --> 01:09:24,720
Speaker 11: foster care. I listened to her testimony, Holy cow, And

1242
01:09:24,720 --> 01:09:26,080
Speaker 11: then I did a little bit of a deep vibe

1243
01:09:26,080 --> 01:09:33,000
Speaker 11: on the case. Because criminal cases may sound similar based

1244
01:09:33,080 --> 01:09:36,599
Speaker 11: on just the general facts right, and you would think, well,

1245
01:09:36,640 --> 01:09:38,840
Speaker 11: all these facts line up, the outcome should be the same.

1246
01:09:38,840 --> 01:09:43,479
Speaker 11: But small details can absolutely change the outcome of a case.

1247
01:09:43,880 --> 01:09:48,240
Speaker 11: And when you look at what happened in that particular family,

1248
01:09:48,400 --> 01:09:52,439
Speaker 11: those small facts make it clear to me. I mean,

1249
01:09:52,439 --> 01:09:54,839
Speaker 11: the jury came back in less than two hours, y'all.

1250
01:09:55,240 --> 01:09:57,240
Speaker 11: For a jury to come back in less than two

1251
01:09:57,320 --> 01:09:59,759
Speaker 11: hours with a conviction, I think he had thirty thirty

1252
01:09:59,760 --> 01:10:03,200
Speaker 11: count indictment. For them to come back that quickly, there

1253
01:10:03,280 --> 01:10:05,479
Speaker 11: wasn't a doubt in their mind that Dad had some

1254
01:10:05,560 --> 01:10:07,679
Speaker 11: kind of culpability. And if you look at the facts

1255
01:10:07,680 --> 01:10:10,040
Speaker 11: on that case, if it walks like a duck, talks

1256
01:10:10,080 --> 01:10:11,719
Speaker 11: like a duck, looks like a duck, it's a duck.

1257
01:10:12,120 --> 01:10:14,640
Speaker 11: And wasn't any any doubt in my mind from what

1258
01:10:14,760 --> 01:10:18,439
Speaker 11: I read that Dad didn't do his job as a parent.

1259
01:10:18,520 --> 01:10:22,360
Speaker 11: And parenting, y'all, isn't easy, and it's really easy to

1260
01:10:22,360 --> 01:10:24,600
Speaker 11: be the lax parent that says, oh, no, I know

1261
01:10:24,680 --> 01:10:26,479
Speaker 11: you got mental health issues, but here I'm gonna go

1262
01:10:26,479 --> 01:10:29,080
Speaker 11: ahead and give you a gun for Christmas anyways, why

1263
01:10:29,240 --> 01:10:32,320
Speaker 11: and then not lock it up? And then no, they've

1264
01:10:32,360 --> 01:10:35,160
Speaker 11: got a fascination with school shooters, but you know, give

1265
01:10:35,200 --> 01:10:35,639
Speaker 11: him a gun.

1266
01:10:37,720 --> 01:10:42,760
Speaker 3: Crazy? So in cases, what kind of warning signs would

1267
01:10:42,800 --> 01:10:46,120
Speaker 3: courts expect a parent to act on? So there were

1268
01:10:46,360 --> 01:10:49,880
Speaker 3: multiple warning signs with calm Gray right, what kind? But

1269
01:10:50,000 --> 01:10:54,160
Speaker 3: what kind of warning signs would the courts expect a

1270
01:10:54,280 --> 01:10:55,040
Speaker 3: parent to act on?

1271
01:10:56,320 --> 01:11:00,920
Speaker 11: It's really, of course, it wasn't depend by state. Really,

1272
01:11:00,960 --> 01:11:05,799
Speaker 11: it's a reasonable person standard. What would a reasonable parent

1273
01:11:06,000 --> 01:11:08,440
Speaker 11: do given the circumstances.

1274
01:11:08,000 --> 01:11:10,360
Speaker 3: Reasonable that it's reasonable.

1275
01:11:10,640 --> 01:11:13,519
Speaker 11: It's reasonable not to give your mentally ill kid who

1276
01:11:13,520 --> 01:11:15,200
Speaker 11: hasn't been to school any I would agree if you

1277
01:11:15,200 --> 01:11:20,679
Speaker 11: didn't enroll a gun. Yeah, I mean it's it's it's

1278
01:11:20,880 --> 01:11:22,839
Speaker 11: I hate to say, it's the dove factor.

1279
01:11:23,360 --> 01:11:26,240
Speaker 3: I agree, but it's the dove factor. Okay.

1280
01:11:26,240 --> 01:11:29,240
Speaker 2: It's so upsetting too, because again, yes, you're so right,

1281
01:11:29,320 --> 01:11:32,559
Speaker 2: We're like, oh, it's a dug du factor. Yet there's

1282
01:11:32,600 --> 01:11:36,400
Speaker 2: four victims and their families are sitting there watching this,

1283
01:11:36,840 --> 01:11:40,240
Speaker 2: you know, dodo of a dad you know, say he's sorry,

1284
01:11:40,280 --> 01:11:42,320
Speaker 2: and it's like, you don't get to bring my kids back.

1285
01:11:42,479 --> 01:11:44,120
Speaker 3: They've been lost in this.

1286
01:11:44,840 --> 01:11:46,880
Speaker 2: So I think it's really important that he does the

1287
01:11:46,960 --> 01:11:49,840
Speaker 2: time for this one, even just as a mandate judge.

1288
01:11:49,880 --> 01:11:52,160
Speaker 3: Michelle I think you need to coin that phrase the

1289
01:11:52,280 --> 01:11:56,200
Speaker 3: DA factory. Absolutely do. That needs to be like your tagline, like, yeah,

1290
01:11:56,280 --> 01:12:00,120
Speaker 3: Judgement that the the dah factor explains because it's it's

1291
01:12:00,240 --> 01:12:02,559
Speaker 3: very on point. It's very on point, I think.

1292
01:12:02,960 --> 01:12:05,000
Speaker 2: But to your point, Michelle, when people are going through

1293
01:12:05,000 --> 01:12:09,360
Speaker 2: breakups or they're separating, it becomes extra because people are heartbroken,

1294
01:12:09,600 --> 01:12:12,920
Speaker 2: they're like acting all crazy and magic and not even

1295
01:12:12,960 --> 01:12:15,560
Speaker 2: themselves necessarily, So you must see it all.

1296
01:12:15,640 --> 01:12:19,760
Speaker 3: Well, speaking of being separated and whatnot, in your experienced, Judge, Michelle,

1297
01:12:19,920 --> 01:12:23,599
Speaker 3: in your experience when parents are separating or or already

1298
01:12:23,640 --> 01:12:28,160
Speaker 3: separated and there's complicated family dynamics and situations, does that

1299
01:12:28,200 --> 01:12:31,680
Speaker 3: make determining responsibility in like cases like Colin Gray and

1300
01:12:31,760 --> 01:12:35,960
Speaker 3: Colt Gray more difficult for the courts? Or is it?

1301
01:12:36,040 --> 01:12:39,280
Speaker 3: Does it? Basically? What I'm asking is do complicated family

1302
01:12:39,320 --> 01:12:40,719
Speaker 3: situations make it more difficult?

1303
01:12:42,120 --> 01:12:42,280
Speaker 11: One?

1304
01:12:43,520 --> 01:12:46,200
Speaker 3: Right? I mean that's kind of a thing too.

1305
01:12:46,280 --> 01:12:48,880
Speaker 2: Every family has something complicated, right?

1306
01:12:49,200 --> 01:12:52,960
Speaker 3: Is that possible? Does every family have stuff? Yeah? Yeah,

1307
01:12:52,960 --> 01:12:53,360
Speaker 3: I think so.

1308
01:12:53,600 --> 01:12:56,680
Speaker 11: I mean nobody's pay to go back to emotions. No

1309
01:12:56,800 --> 01:12:59,880
Speaker 11: one's perfect. And what I always describe when you look

1310
01:12:59,880 --> 01:13:02,559
Speaker 11: at like family law versus criminal defense because at one

1311
01:13:02,600 --> 01:13:05,599
Speaker 11: point of my priority criminal assense work, criminal defense work

1312
01:13:05,680 --> 01:13:09,599
Speaker 11: is defending generally speaking, bad people on their best behavior.

1313
01:13:10,320 --> 01:13:13,360
Speaker 11: Family court is the exact opposite. It's really good people

1314
01:13:13,479 --> 01:13:15,479
Speaker 11: on their worst day.

1315
01:13:15,800 --> 01:13:19,200
Speaker 3: Wow, what a great way to say that. That's so fair,

1316
01:13:19,840 --> 01:13:23,240
Speaker 3: it's so fair. We tried to do a show in.

1317
01:13:23,320 --> 01:13:25,280
Speaker 2: Family court one time. I tried to make a show

1318
01:13:25,320 --> 01:13:27,080
Speaker 2: in family court with a judge. I wish it was you,

1319
01:13:27,280 --> 01:13:31,000
Speaker 2: And it was the most upsetting twenty four hours of

1320
01:13:31,080 --> 01:13:35,880
Speaker 2: my life because again, people are in such crisis exacerbated circumstances,

1321
01:13:36,200 --> 01:13:41,200
Speaker 2: and they're all looking for you to make everything okay.

1322
01:13:41,400 --> 01:13:43,320
Speaker 11: And we didn't create the mess.

1323
01:13:43,400 --> 01:13:43,920
Speaker 9: Our job.

1324
01:13:44,200 --> 01:13:47,160
Speaker 11: It was Morcer's lawyers to fix it the best we can.

1325
01:13:47,600 --> 01:13:50,840
Speaker 11: But y'all, everyone forgets that the text messages that you

1326
01:13:50,920 --> 01:13:53,759
Speaker 11: send at eleven thirty pm, after you've got a bottle

1327
01:13:53,760 --> 01:13:56,519
Speaker 11: of wine and after you've been fighting with your husband

1328
01:13:56,600 --> 01:13:59,280
Speaker 11: or wife for the last three hours, where you have

1329
01:13:59,439 --> 01:14:03,760
Speaker 11: life hire off, that awful, awful, awful message where you

1330
01:14:03,840 --> 01:14:07,200
Speaker 11: tell them you know I hope you die back gets

1331
01:14:07,280 --> 01:14:10,520
Speaker 11: right into the record is exhibit A and a custody.

1332
01:14:10,080 --> 01:14:12,280
Speaker 3: Fight exactly again.

1333
01:14:12,479 --> 01:14:16,320
Speaker 2: Uh, like, put the phone down, put the phone down

1334
01:14:16,439 --> 01:14:19,000
Speaker 2: because I think people feel very entitled in the moment.

1335
01:14:19,160 --> 01:14:22,400
Speaker 3: Also, and listen, who hasn't been there in a breakup?

1336
01:14:22,479 --> 01:14:25,639
Speaker 2: Right, But it's this is the stuff that will set

1337
01:14:25,680 --> 01:14:27,280
Speaker 2: the stage for.

1338
01:14:27,240 --> 01:14:30,280
Speaker 3: You know, your child's entire life therefore well, and in

1339
01:14:30,320 --> 01:14:33,120
Speaker 3: the case of case of congray, it could set the

1340
01:14:33,120 --> 01:14:38,720
Speaker 3: stage nationwide for parental responsibility you know, reform maybe you know,

1341
01:14:38,920 --> 01:14:43,040
Speaker 3: like do cases like this sometimes push the courts or

1342
01:14:43,160 --> 01:14:47,240
Speaker 3: lawmakers in general to rethink how much legal responsibility or

1343
01:14:47,280 --> 01:14:49,320
Speaker 3: accountability parents are carrying.

1344
01:14:50,880 --> 01:14:56,160
Speaker 11: I think it'd be difficult for it not to. I

1345
01:14:56,200 --> 01:14:59,479
Speaker 11: mean really, because you're going to have the lawmakers who

1346
01:14:59,479 --> 01:15:01,200
Speaker 11: have some kids to look at their kids and go, oh,

1347
01:15:01,200 --> 01:15:03,240
Speaker 11: I don't want to reresponsible for what he's going to do,

1348
01:15:04,320 --> 01:15:06,240
Speaker 11: and that may change some laws. But you also be

1349
01:15:06,400 --> 01:15:08,760
Speaker 11: the magicate groups that are like, wait a minute, and

1350
01:15:08,960 --> 01:15:12,080
Speaker 11: dad had actually just stepped up and locked up his

1351
01:15:12,240 --> 01:15:14,760
Speaker 11: guns with some kind of biometric lock that only dad

1352
01:15:14,800 --> 01:15:17,360
Speaker 11: could have access, then maybe this wouldn't have happened.

1353
01:15:17,360 --> 01:15:20,360
Speaker 4: And so yeah, it's.

1354
01:15:22,560 --> 01:15:24,280
Speaker 11: I think we are we are going to coin that

1355
01:15:24,280 --> 01:15:24,719
Speaker 11: that does.

1356
01:15:24,800 --> 01:15:30,679
Speaker 3: I think it judge dues, judgement judge dues.

1357
01:15:30,840 --> 01:15:33,320
Speaker 2: But it is true, like you see this in others,

1358
01:15:33,400 --> 01:15:35,639
Speaker 2: and again we can see this and we're talking about

1359
01:15:35,720 --> 01:15:38,000
Speaker 2: cases that aren't in our personal lives, which is why

1360
01:15:38,040 --> 01:15:41,080
Speaker 2: I think it's so interesting to unpack cases because listen,

1361
01:15:41,200 --> 01:15:43,000
Speaker 2: sometimes when it's in your own world, it's.

1362
01:15:42,880 --> 01:15:45,720
Speaker 3: A lot harder to see it. No, everyone's like zip it.

1363
01:15:45,920 --> 01:15:46,120
Speaker 1: You know.

1364
01:15:46,200 --> 01:15:48,320
Speaker 3: Well, on the exception, you know what I mean.

1365
01:15:48,560 --> 01:15:51,639
Speaker 2: When we're looking at other cases, certainly ones that are

1366
01:15:52,080 --> 01:15:55,040
Speaker 2: such high stakes, it's really important that we unpack it,

1367
01:15:55,080 --> 01:15:57,640
Speaker 2: certainly from a legal perspective and as a family perspective,

1368
01:15:58,080 --> 01:16:00,000
Speaker 2: because it informs a lot in our own life.

1369
01:16:00,800 --> 01:16:01,040
Speaker 9: Right.

1370
01:16:02,560 --> 01:16:05,200
Speaker 11: I mean, they actually in that case looked at prosecuting

1371
01:16:05,280 --> 01:16:09,479
Speaker 11: mom and did not really because oh they did. Oh yeah,

1372
01:16:10,240 --> 01:16:12,680
Speaker 11: you prosecuted the district Oh yeah. The district attorney the

1373
01:16:12,720 --> 01:16:15,360
Speaker 11: case in a press conference after the conviction, and one

1374
01:16:15,360 --> 01:16:17,560
Speaker 11: of the questions was, did you ever look at prosecuting

1375
01:16:17,600 --> 01:16:21,639
Speaker 11: mom because mom had lost that had lost her son

1376
01:16:22,160 --> 01:16:25,240
Speaker 11: because Susan I think drug outut drug act an alcoholic,

1377
01:16:25,280 --> 01:16:28,240
Speaker 11: so she didn't have company. And what the disc attorney

1378
01:16:28,240 --> 01:16:32,960
Speaker 11: said was basically because she's a terrible mother. Yes we

1379
01:16:33,040 --> 01:16:36,480
Speaker 11: know she's a terrible mother, but it's been attached liability

1380
01:16:36,520 --> 01:16:38,960
Speaker 11: because she didn't have the primary care testie or control

1381
01:16:39,000 --> 01:16:41,320
Speaker 11: of the child or the child's actions. And in fact

1382
01:16:41,960 --> 01:16:47,680
Speaker 11: Mom called dad and said, I'm worried, don't give them

1383
01:16:47,720 --> 01:16:51,280
Speaker 11: access to stuff, and Dad didn't do anything.

1384
01:16:51,920 --> 01:16:55,679
Speaker 2: And she also she even called the school to say

1385
01:16:55,680 --> 01:16:58,040
Speaker 2: that my son is like may have a gun and

1386
01:16:59,080 --> 01:17:01,880
Speaker 2: called the wrong student. They got confused in the school

1387
01:17:01,920 --> 01:17:04,600
Speaker 2: and those precious moments that you know, limited amount of

1388
01:17:04,600 --> 01:17:07,559
Speaker 2: time where maybe something could have been intervened, you know,

1389
01:17:07,720 --> 01:17:09,200
Speaker 2: or this could have been an intervention.

1390
01:17:09,320 --> 01:17:10,920
Speaker 3: Well, he was new to the school. They didn't really

1391
01:17:11,000 --> 01:17:14,759
Speaker 3: quite know what he looked like. It was like day four. Yeah,

1392
01:17:14,960 --> 01:17:16,599
Speaker 3: it was pretty new to the school.

1393
01:17:17,920 --> 01:17:22,000
Speaker 11: He was school, but he had been brought place, had

1394
01:17:22,000 --> 01:17:24,479
Speaker 11: come to his house the year before, right because he

1395
01:17:24,479 --> 01:17:27,639
Speaker 11: had been on allegedly on discord making the school threat.

1396
01:17:27,880 --> 01:17:31,240
Speaker 11: He watched the video from the boster's cam with he had.

1397
01:17:32,280 --> 01:17:34,400
Speaker 11: You got to watch body language because you can see

1398
01:17:34,439 --> 01:17:36,280
Speaker 11: that kid is lying through the feat.

1399
01:17:36,800 --> 01:17:39,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he was like kind of pacing like a

1400
01:17:39,240 --> 01:17:41,600
Speaker 2: little bit back and forth and swinging.

1401
01:17:41,479 --> 01:17:43,160
Speaker 11: And rockets in the pocket.

1402
01:17:43,240 --> 01:17:47,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's exactly right. We were just about that. Yeah,

1403
01:17:47,120 --> 01:17:49,080
Speaker 3: is that a duz sign that I didn't know? Hands

1404
01:17:49,080 --> 01:17:49,920
Speaker 3: in your pockets.

1405
01:17:50,120 --> 01:17:52,479
Speaker 11: That was a that was a test. That was a

1406
01:17:52,960 --> 01:17:54,080
Speaker 11: really damn Yeah.

1407
01:17:55,640 --> 01:17:59,400
Speaker 3: I have learned so much. He didn't have a thousand

1408
01:17:59,400 --> 01:18:01,360
Speaker 3: more questions. Yeah, a thousand.

1409
01:18:02,760 --> 01:18:05,920
Speaker 2: So Michelle, will you come back with us maybe even

1410
01:18:05,960 --> 01:18:06,439
Speaker 2: next week?

1411
01:18:08,400 --> 01:18:13,040
Speaker 3: You know what, we still need to talk about Anna

1412
01:18:13,160 --> 01:18:14,960
Speaker 3: Kepner too, So yeah, you got to come back for

1413
01:18:15,040 --> 01:18:18,799
Speaker 3: next time. Thank you so much for sharing your experience

1414
01:18:18,840 --> 01:18:21,760
Speaker 3: and your insight with us tonight. It's so valuable. We

1415
01:18:21,880 --> 01:18:24,559
Speaker 3: learned all about the dove factor, which is super important,

1416
01:18:24,920 --> 01:18:26,840
Speaker 3: and we get to hear from somebody who's actually been

1417
01:18:27,080 --> 01:18:31,240
Speaker 3: on the bench making these difficult decisions. Right. We really

1418
01:18:31,240 --> 01:18:33,360
Speaker 3: appreciate you joining us on True Crime Tonight, and if

1419
01:18:33,400 --> 01:18:36,559
Speaker 3: listeners want to learn more and to follow your work,

1420
01:18:36,600 --> 01:18:41,000
Speaker 3: they can visit Michelle Locke. That's Michelle l O c

1421
01:18:41,320 --> 01:18:44,080
Speaker 3: k E dot com and listen. You can find her

1422
01:18:44,120 --> 01:18:47,720
Speaker 3: on Instagram at Attorney Michelle lock stick around. We've got

1423
01:18:47,720 --> 01:18:50,960
Speaker 3: more to dig into. The talkbacks are coming in like crazy,

1424
01:18:51,040 --> 01:18:53,920
Speaker 3: so it's time to dig some up. Keep it right here,

1425
01:18:54,120 --> 01:18:55,040
Speaker 3: True Grime Tonight.

1426
01:19:05,880 --> 01:19:09,160
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight and iHeartRadio. We're talking

1427
01:19:09,240 --> 01:19:12,400
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanielyideker here with Courtney

1428
01:19:12,479 --> 01:19:16,600
Speaker 2: Armstrong and body move in a huge thanks to Michelle

1429
01:19:17,040 --> 01:19:21,120
Speaker 2: Locke the U duh duh like the judge of Comminge.

1430
01:19:21,120 --> 01:19:23,000
Speaker 3: It made so much sense. She made so much sense.

1431
01:19:23,080 --> 01:19:24,840
Speaker 3: And I'm so glad that we had a caller that

1432
01:19:25,040 --> 01:19:26,479
Speaker 3: that was able to hopefully help her.

1433
01:19:26,840 --> 01:19:29,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would love to have her back next week

1434
01:19:29,600 --> 01:19:33,800
Speaker 2: every week, And like I just have people need help

1435
01:19:33,880 --> 01:19:36,559
Speaker 2: and there's just nowhere to get real good advice.

1436
01:19:37,160 --> 01:19:38,840
Speaker 3: Well, I want to talk to her about cases. I

1437
01:19:38,920 --> 01:19:41,000
Speaker 3: want to talk to you about the kids that were

1438
01:19:41,000 --> 01:19:42,920
Speaker 3: just found in the suitcase and the dad dealing with

1439
01:19:43,040 --> 01:19:45,719
Speaker 3: CPS and all that, yes, and not getting anywhere because

1440
01:19:45,720 --> 01:19:49,040
Speaker 3: you know, there's a real problem with fathers in this

1441
01:19:49,160 --> 01:19:52,120
Speaker 3: country not really having you know, the same I mean,

1442
01:19:52,160 --> 01:19:54,080
Speaker 3: they do have the same rights as mothers, right, but

1443
01:19:54,760 --> 01:19:57,599
Speaker 3: in most I feel like it's uneven a little bit,

1444
01:19:57,640 --> 01:20:00,519
Speaker 3: don't you think. Well, it depends on this. It spends

1445
01:20:02,080 --> 01:20:02,719
Speaker 3: to fifty.

1446
01:20:03,200 --> 01:20:05,080
Speaker 2: Most dates are pretty fifty to fifty. Notath that I'm

1447
01:20:05,120 --> 01:20:07,919
Speaker 2: an expert in this, but from what I've you know, gleaned,

1448
01:20:08,200 --> 01:20:11,400
Speaker 2: in most cases they really do want dad's full involvement.

1449
01:20:11,479 --> 01:20:16,120
Speaker 2: But of the parental alienation is an extremely real thing.

1450
01:20:16,880 --> 01:20:20,759
Speaker 3: And so I'm probably hard, you know, and asking questions

1451
01:20:20,800 --> 01:20:23,839
Speaker 3: about you know, so that we can be better informed

1452
01:20:23,840 --> 01:20:27,200
Speaker 3: in informing our audience, right, like absolutely, Like the Anna

1453
01:20:27,320 --> 01:20:28,160
Speaker 3: Kepner case.

1454
01:20:28,240 --> 01:20:31,880
Speaker 5: I think she's a fifteen year old who died on

1455
01:20:31,920 --> 01:20:36,439
Speaker 5: the cruise ship, and like, family dynamics are at the

1456
01:20:36,520 --> 01:20:39,640
Speaker 5: root of that in some capacity, some capacity.

1457
01:20:39,680 --> 01:20:40,240
Speaker 3: Think about it.

1458
01:20:40,439 --> 01:20:43,320
Speaker 2: Or Alana Kepner lost her life, her stepbrother took her

1459
01:20:43,360 --> 01:20:48,639
Speaker 2: life allegedly, allegedly allegedly, and her father and her step

1460
01:20:48,720 --> 01:20:52,240
Speaker 2: mother still together. But like, think about that, So one

1461
01:20:52,240 --> 01:20:57,200
Speaker 2: of your children is accused of killing your new step child,

1462
01:20:57,439 --> 01:21:00,920
Speaker 2: it gets wild. Other one talk about like that being

1463
01:21:00,960 --> 01:21:02,840
Speaker 2: a breakup reason for their magic.

1464
01:21:04,200 --> 01:21:06,320
Speaker 3: We could do a whole segment right now on all

1465
01:21:06,360 --> 01:21:09,120
Speaker 3: the cases that Judge Michelle could help us with. Exactly

1466
01:21:09,439 --> 01:21:13,559
Speaker 3: Melody Buzzard, you know her dad's family. You know poor

1467
01:21:13,600 --> 01:21:17,240
Speaker 3: little Ashley Buzzard her I'm sorry, Ashley Buzzard is the

1468
01:21:17,240 --> 01:21:21,400
Speaker 3: mom poor little Melody Buzzard. Her dad's family was trying

1469
01:21:21,479 --> 01:21:24,680
Speaker 3: to get visitation with her and was being refused. Like

1470
01:21:25,040 --> 01:21:28,760
Speaker 3: what rights do grandparents and aunts and uncles have, right,

1471
01:21:28,880 --> 01:21:32,720
Speaker 3: I don't know if they have any. Shanna Gardner and

1472
01:21:32,800 --> 01:21:36,200
Speaker 3: Jared Bright again. You know, she killed her ex husband

1473
01:21:36,800 --> 01:21:40,559
Speaker 3: and the twins that they shared are now living with Shanna,

1474
01:21:40,720 --> 01:21:44,320
Speaker 3: the killers mom and dad. What the heck? You know

1475
01:21:44,360 --> 01:21:45,839
Speaker 3: what I mean? Like that possible?

1476
01:21:46,040 --> 01:21:46,240
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1477
01:21:46,439 --> 01:21:49,960
Speaker 3: Interesting? Right, So there's a lot of like cases that

1478
01:21:50,040 --> 01:21:52,960
Speaker 3: she would be so helpful and knowledgeable on that. You know,

1479
01:21:53,080 --> 01:21:54,519
Speaker 3: I just don't know the answers to a lot of

1480
01:21:54,520 --> 01:21:57,040
Speaker 3: these things because I'm not a lawyer, you know, of course.

1481
01:21:57,280 --> 01:21:59,400
Speaker 2: But by the way, even I just did so manyself.

1482
01:21:59,479 --> 01:22:02,400
Speaker 2: I was like, why would you know? Why would shannas?

1483
01:22:02,560 --> 01:22:07,160
Speaker 2: You know, parents have the children there, their grandchildren, and

1484
01:22:07,439 --> 01:22:09,800
Speaker 2: even though mom did a very bad thing, doesn't mean

1485
01:22:09,840 --> 01:22:13,760
Speaker 2: grandparents don't want access to their grand baby. So it's

1486
01:22:14,040 --> 01:22:18,280
Speaker 2: nuanced like family. It is is so every feeling dynamics.

1487
01:22:18,360 --> 01:22:20,760
Speaker 3: I mean they're messy, period. Raise your hand.

1488
01:22:20,800 --> 01:22:24,719
Speaker 2: If you don't have some messiness in your family, of course,

1489
01:22:24,840 --> 01:22:29,120
Speaker 2: you know it's inevitable, and certainly when children are involved,

1490
01:22:29,160 --> 01:22:33,160
Speaker 2: your heart's extra deeply involved. I would say eighty five

1491
01:22:33,160 --> 01:22:36,280
Speaker 2: percent of the cases that we cover have a family dynamic,

1492
01:22:36,640 --> 01:22:38,000
Speaker 2: oh easily.

1493
01:22:37,960 --> 01:22:44,679
Speaker 3: One way or another, whether it's on this show or anyway.

1494
01:22:44,720 --> 01:22:46,400
Speaker 3: She was great and I loved the factor.

1495
01:22:46,560 --> 01:22:50,000
Speaker 7: I love yeah, I have an idea of different cases

1496
01:22:50,000 --> 01:22:52,840
Speaker 7: to cover with her, because we'll bring her back. And

1497
01:22:53,040 --> 01:22:56,320
Speaker 7: speaking of which, we've gotten some suggestions of cases that

1498
01:22:57,000 --> 01:22:58,280
Speaker 7: people would like us to cover.

1499
01:22:58,360 --> 01:23:01,960
Speaker 3: That's my favorite talk back, No, it is my favorite

1500
01:23:02,200 --> 01:23:03,280
Speaker 3: category of talkback.

1501
01:23:03,640 --> 01:23:06,120
Speaker 4: All right, well, Adam has one ready to go. So

1502
01:23:06,320 --> 01:23:06,960
Speaker 4: here's the case.

1503
01:23:07,720 --> 01:23:12,080
Speaker 3: I found. This case, Giselle Pellico was.

1504
01:23:12,360 --> 01:23:17,240
Speaker 12: Drugged every night for years by her husband Dominique, and

1505
01:23:17,840 --> 01:23:21,120
Speaker 12: rape and it's a very interesting case.

1506
01:23:21,560 --> 01:23:25,160
Speaker 3: Sureman, wait what the case? This is a woman?

1507
01:23:25,240 --> 01:23:27,800
Speaker 2: If I'm not mistaken, correct me if I'm wrong, But

1508
01:23:27,880 --> 01:23:29,720
Speaker 2: I just know this because it's so horrifying.

1509
01:23:29,840 --> 01:23:33,519
Speaker 3: A woman in Germany, France, oh, France.

1510
01:23:34,280 --> 01:23:37,000
Speaker 2: And then she's like a woman she's been married for

1511
01:23:37,040 --> 01:23:40,200
Speaker 2: a very very very long time, only to find out

1512
01:23:40,200 --> 01:23:43,559
Speaker 2: that her facocta husband had been drugging her and raping

1513
01:23:43,600 --> 01:23:47,479
Speaker 2: her and was sharing video of this with everyone in

1514
01:23:47,479 --> 01:23:47,880
Speaker 2: the town.

1515
01:23:48,120 --> 01:23:51,920
Speaker 3: Am I understanding? Okay? I mean that is absolutely part

1516
01:23:51,960 --> 01:23:52,280
Speaker 3: of it.

1517
01:23:53,200 --> 01:23:57,840
Speaker 5: Other part of it was that Dominique set up at

1518
01:23:57,960 --> 01:24:04,360
Speaker 5: least fifty other men to him and assault his wife

1519
01:24:04,439 --> 01:24:08,120
Speaker 5: when she was sedated, and the men range in ages,

1520
01:24:08,160 --> 01:24:10,160
Speaker 5: they were strangers.

1521
01:24:11,000 --> 01:24:11,320
Speaker 4: To her.

1522
01:24:11,360 --> 01:24:15,679
Speaker 5: I'm following this case I think it's unbelievable, so broad strokes.

1523
01:24:15,960 --> 01:24:18,720
Speaker 5: Over the course of about nine years, between twenty eleven

1524
01:24:18,760 --> 01:24:23,280
Speaker 5: and twenty twenty. This woman, this elegant woman, as you said,

1525
01:24:23,320 --> 01:24:30,760
Speaker 5: Stephanie Giselle Pellico, she was drugged with sleeping pills and

1526
01:24:30,800 --> 01:24:35,960
Speaker 5: again her demented husband, Dominique.

1527
01:24:35,439 --> 01:24:37,439
Speaker 3: Pellico, locked his assops.

1528
01:24:37,560 --> 01:24:41,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, so he raised her and again these dozens of

1529
01:24:41,120 --> 01:24:46,800
Speaker 5: other men And this was only discovered after Dominique the

1530
01:24:46,880 --> 01:24:51,880
Speaker 5: husband was arrested for looking up a skirt of another

1531
01:24:51,960 --> 01:24:54,439
Speaker 5: woman and having pictures on his computer.

1532
01:24:55,439 --> 01:24:57,280
Speaker 3: So I think the.

1533
01:24:57,240 --> 01:24:59,840
Speaker 7: Case because of because he was involved with something else,

1534
01:25:00,000 --> 01:25:02,000
Speaker 7: so they would have never even seen this and all

1535
01:25:02,000 --> 01:25:02,719
Speaker 7: these images.

1536
01:25:02,920 --> 01:25:06,400
Speaker 4: He had been videotaping every incident. It's this one. I

1537
01:25:06,400 --> 01:25:07,160
Speaker 4: don't know why this one.

1538
01:25:07,280 --> 01:25:12,280
Speaker 2: Just random men were showing up to have sex with

1539
01:25:12,360 --> 01:25:16,920
Speaker 2: a woman who was drugged and unconscious and a line.

1540
01:25:17,760 --> 01:25:19,439
Speaker 2: You think about it, and this is not even a

1541
01:25:19,520 --> 01:25:23,120
Speaker 2: huge town. And this woman, this poor beautiful woman, she

1542
01:25:23,280 --> 01:25:27,120
Speaker 2: literally came public and she went you know again, it's

1543
01:25:27,120 --> 01:25:30,040
Speaker 2: so difficult for a survivor to come forward, So hats

1544
01:25:30,080 --> 01:25:33,880
Speaker 2: off to any survivor period, let alone if you're to

1545
01:25:33,920 --> 01:25:37,160
Speaker 2: come out. And she came forward. Because she didn't want

1546
01:25:37,880 --> 01:25:41,040
Speaker 2: anybody who may possibly have had a similar experience to

1547
01:25:41,080 --> 01:25:43,080
Speaker 2: go through it without her sharing her story.

1548
01:25:44,000 --> 01:25:48,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, and share she did. I mean, she waved her

1549
01:25:48,120 --> 01:25:51,559
Speaker 5: right to anonymity. Obviously we are talking about her name,

1550
01:25:51,680 --> 01:25:54,960
Speaker 5: and this was to support victims and raise awareness of

1551
01:25:55,040 --> 01:25:57,200
Speaker 5: chemical submissions.

1552
01:25:57,280 --> 01:25:58,240
Speaker 3: You had no idea.

1553
01:25:59,720 --> 01:26:03,360
Speaker 5: She also which I actually just got the chills about

1554
01:26:03,360 --> 01:26:06,879
Speaker 5: what I'm about to say, she successfully overturned the judge's

1555
01:26:06,960 --> 01:26:11,960
Speaker 5: initial decision, which was to bar the public from attending court.

1556
01:26:12,160 --> 01:26:14,559
Speaker 3: Oh, I don't think we said this. These all of

1557
01:26:14,560 --> 01:26:18,000
Speaker 3: these assaults were videotaped. Ye yeah, yeah, no, no.

1558
01:26:17,840 --> 01:26:24,160
Speaker 5: And so she said absolutely everyone should see what happened.

1559
01:26:24,880 --> 01:26:27,519
Speaker 5: And she said, I'm lucky to have the evidence. I

1560
01:26:27,600 --> 01:26:31,480
Speaker 5: have the proof, which is rare. I stand for all victims.

1561
01:26:32,960 --> 01:26:38,200
Speaker 5: And then last thing about this amazing woman is she

1562
01:26:38,360 --> 01:26:40,920
Speaker 5: as now divorced and returned to.

1563
01:26:40,920 --> 01:26:43,320
Speaker 3: Her married name, her maiden name.

1564
01:26:44,080 --> 01:26:50,200
Speaker 5: However, get this, she chose to keep her married name Pellico,

1565
01:26:50,960 --> 01:26:55,000
Speaker 5: and she explained that during the trial only because she said,

1566
01:26:55,000 --> 01:26:58,920
Speaker 5: this is a choice so that her grandchildren should never

1567
01:26:58,960 --> 01:27:00,800
Speaker 5: be ashamed of the name.

1568
01:27:01,280 --> 01:27:04,920
Speaker 3: Wow, this woman deserves with her medle. We have her

1569
01:27:04,960 --> 01:27:05,360
Speaker 3: on the show.

1570
01:27:05,760 --> 01:27:06,439
Speaker 4: I would love it.

1571
01:27:06,560 --> 01:27:07,519
Speaker 3: Let's reach out to her.

1572
01:27:08,160 --> 01:27:10,360
Speaker 2: This is a woman that has been through Can you

1573
01:27:10,400 --> 01:27:12,599
Speaker 2: imagine what your body must be like? But you have

1574
01:27:12,640 --> 01:27:15,400
Speaker 2: like a sixth sense, but you're not totally sure, and

1575
01:27:15,680 --> 01:27:18,240
Speaker 2: you've been drugged. You know, we're hearing a lot about this,

1576
01:27:18,320 --> 01:27:20,760
Speaker 2: even on the Epstein Files and all the nonsense.

1577
01:27:20,840 --> 01:27:23,240
Speaker 3: Imagine just waking up and thinking everything is fine.

1578
01:27:23,360 --> 01:27:27,200
Speaker 2: Or the Alexander Brothers who just another the million dollar

1579
01:27:27,280 --> 01:27:29,360
Speaker 2: listing real estate agent from Bravo.

1580
01:27:29,520 --> 01:27:31,960
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, I just jumped.

1581
01:27:31,640 --> 01:27:36,360
Speaker 7: In, m h yeah, absolutely, so little entire cases just

1582
01:27:36,400 --> 01:27:36,600
Speaker 7: like that.

1583
01:27:37,000 --> 01:27:38,680
Speaker 4: I would love to have her on. My concern is

1584
01:27:38,720 --> 01:27:40,840
Speaker 4: I'm not sure if she speaks English, so it might

1585
01:27:40,880 --> 01:27:45,080
Speaker 4: be a yeah, but but yeah, I would love to.

1586
01:27:46,160 --> 01:27:48,880
Speaker 3: How long this conets? So much bravery? I take so

1587
01:27:49,000 --> 01:27:52,160
Speaker 3: much courage? Almost ten years?

1588
01:27:52,200 --> 01:27:52,960
Speaker 4: Ten years?

1589
01:27:53,000 --> 01:27:53,639
Speaker 3: And again.

1590
01:27:53,680 --> 01:27:57,440
Speaker 5: These perpetrators, they ranged from sort of the early twenties

1591
01:27:57,680 --> 01:27:59,520
Speaker 5: to you seventies.

1592
01:28:00,360 --> 01:28:02,960
Speaker 3: Are they getting prosecuted? Are they are they finding them

1593
01:28:02,960 --> 01:28:03,760
Speaker 3: from the videotapes?

1594
01:28:03,920 --> 01:28:04,200
Speaker 4: Yes?

1595
01:28:04,840 --> 01:28:08,280
Speaker 3: The other baby defendants.

1596
01:28:09,000 --> 01:28:11,479
Speaker 4: What kind of husband like that just makes no sense?

1597
01:28:13,880 --> 01:28:14,960
Speaker 3: What the heck?

1598
01:28:16,200 --> 01:28:21,360
Speaker 5: What kind of sadist? If you kidnapped someone your worst enemy?

1599
01:28:21,800 --> 01:28:24,280
Speaker 5: I could not think of a worse hell to put

1600
01:28:24,360 --> 01:28:26,519
Speaker 5: someone through than what he did to.

1601
01:28:26,720 --> 01:28:29,400
Speaker 3: This is somebody that she's supposed to entrust her care

1602
01:28:29,560 --> 01:28:32,880
Speaker 3: and tenderness and heart, and he's supposed to protect and

1603
01:28:32,920 --> 01:28:36,200
Speaker 3: love her and serve her. And this is what I mean, dude,

1604
01:28:36,280 --> 01:28:39,200
Speaker 3: I am. I had no idea anything about this case.

1605
01:28:39,400 --> 01:28:41,759
Speaker 2: Oh, she's going up and she's like, you know, living

1606
01:28:41,840 --> 01:28:45,240
Speaker 2: like a dutiful wife and like making him meals and

1607
01:28:45,280 --> 01:28:49,240
Speaker 2: staying in a relationship and somewhere in their depth, you know,

1608
01:28:49,400 --> 01:28:51,599
Speaker 2: her soul, she knew something was wrong, but it's like,

1609
01:28:51,840 --> 01:28:55,360
Speaker 2: you can't really put your finger on it. Listen up, everybody, ladies, men,

1610
01:28:55,680 --> 01:28:59,280
Speaker 2: trust your guts and if you were in a situation

1611
01:28:59,360 --> 01:29:02,479
Speaker 2: that is troubles it, life can be really long.

1612
01:29:02,800 --> 01:29:05,800
Speaker 3: Id will oh yeah, yeah. So in September of twenty

1613
01:29:05,880 --> 01:29:08,640
Speaker 3: twenty four, there were dominate I just looked it up

1614
01:29:08,680 --> 01:29:12,439
Speaker 3: in fifty co defendants. So these were these guys that

1615
01:29:12,960 --> 01:29:14,520
Speaker 3: found on the streets or whatever.

1616
01:29:14,280 --> 01:29:16,120
Speaker 4: At the boss, random soccer.

1617
01:29:15,880 --> 01:29:19,880
Speaker 3: Match, whatever that he would bring to the house. Oh

1618
01:29:20,000 --> 01:29:23,800
Speaker 3: my goodness, No, it's all of this stunning sun and

1619
01:29:24,400 --> 01:29:25,160
Speaker 3: throw away the key.

1620
01:29:26,000 --> 01:29:28,439
Speaker 5: Just last month and this last thing on this just

1621
01:29:28,560 --> 01:29:32,759
Speaker 5: last month, she published her memoir It's in French, of course,

1622
01:29:33,640 --> 01:29:37,920
Speaker 5: but the English translation is a hymn to life. Shame

1623
01:29:38,200 --> 01:29:40,360
Speaker 5: has to change sides.

1624
01:29:41,360 --> 01:29:42,920
Speaker 3: And I think that's really beautiful.

1625
01:29:43,200 --> 01:29:48,960
Speaker 5: The shame is on the men, shame on these perpetuus.

1626
01:29:48,240 --> 01:29:51,400
Speaker 2: Right, and something so true, you know, like victims and

1627
01:29:51,439 --> 01:29:56,040
Speaker 2: survivors that that shame blanket just can can drown a person.

1628
01:29:56,520 --> 01:29:59,400
Speaker 2: Yet it's nothing to do with the victim, right, It's

1629
01:29:59,600 --> 01:30:01,600
Speaker 2: every thing to do with the perpetrator.

1630
01:30:01,640 --> 01:30:05,280
Speaker 3: But boy, that can steal decades of your life. Yeah, yeah,

1631
01:30:05,439 --> 01:30:06,559
Speaker 3: May she be so.

1632
01:30:07,400 --> 01:30:10,960
Speaker 2: Loved and may she feel all of ours coming her way,

1633
01:30:11,080 --> 01:30:14,080
Speaker 2: because that is one strong lady.

1634
01:30:14,160 --> 01:30:17,160
Speaker 3: P How do you say feel our love in French?

1635
01:30:22,880 --> 01:30:25,920
Speaker 4: We'll get someone I want to well, we look.

1636
01:30:25,800 --> 01:30:28,120
Speaker 3: Up the translation. Why don't we go to another talk back.

1637
01:30:28,960 --> 01:30:31,360
Speaker 3: I don't know. I probably said something terrible just now.

1638
01:30:31,840 --> 01:30:34,280
Speaker 3: I think that's a pen Hey.

1639
01:30:34,120 --> 01:30:38,920
Speaker 10: Guys, this is Erica from Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, just

1640
01:30:39,160 --> 01:30:41,840
Speaker 10: on my way to work at the cemetery, believe it

1641
01:30:41,960 --> 01:30:45,400
Speaker 10: or not, and I was just thinking, in my opinion,

1642
01:30:45,600 --> 01:30:49,000
Speaker 10: it would be really fun to have Jarrett Farantino and

1643
01:30:49,160 --> 01:30:52,760
Speaker 10: Joseph Scott Morgan on the same episode. I would love

1644
01:30:52,880 --> 01:30:54,519
Speaker 10: listening to that on my drive in.

1645
01:30:54,800 --> 01:30:57,640
Speaker 3: Thanks guys, love you by listen. If they're both on

1646
01:30:57,680 --> 01:31:01,000
Speaker 3: the show, there's no need for us because you know

1647
01:31:01,040 --> 01:31:03,600
Speaker 3: what I mean, listen, you've all had the thought with this,

1648
01:31:03,720 --> 01:31:04,799
Speaker 3: and she is a producer.

1649
01:31:04,960 --> 01:31:05,559
Speaker 4: Good job.

1650
01:31:06,200 --> 01:31:08,400
Speaker 2: Yes, when when two of us are down for the

1651
01:31:08,520 --> 01:31:12,200
Speaker 2: count or maybe on holiday gallop vanting in the French

1652
01:31:12,280 --> 01:31:16,439
Speaker 2: mari era people, Yeah, those two will talk and be

1653
01:31:16,560 --> 01:31:18,760
Speaker 2: so interesting. I can't even imagine. I want to be

1654
01:31:18,800 --> 01:31:21,600
Speaker 2: at that kitchen table enjoying coffee.

1655
01:31:23,280 --> 01:31:25,439
Speaker 4: That they have for each other, like you know, yeah,

1656
01:31:25,560 --> 01:31:26,599
Speaker 4: sure they both have something.

1657
01:31:26,720 --> 01:31:30,000
Speaker 7: Oh they love side, So that could be a fun

1658
01:31:30,680 --> 01:31:31,919
Speaker 7: get to get a great suggestion.

1659
01:31:32,280 --> 01:31:34,280
Speaker 3: That's that would be a really good show though, because

1660
01:31:34,320 --> 01:31:37,200
Speaker 3: like I listen, if you guys ever go to town

1661
01:31:37,880 --> 01:31:40,320
Speaker 3: and you need me to run the show, that's who

1662
01:31:40,320 --> 01:31:43,840
Speaker 3: I want. I want jar and Jared and and yeah

1663
01:31:44,280 --> 01:31:46,880
Speaker 3: you know, I mean I would be in hog Heaven

1664
01:31:47,640 --> 01:31:50,200
Speaker 3: Friends in the Law. That's like my that's like right

1665
01:31:50,240 --> 01:31:53,600
Speaker 3: up my alley, Like I love that stuff. Bring it up,

1666
01:31:53,720 --> 01:31:57,240
Speaker 3: Joseph and Jarrett. Let's go well we'll call it JJB.

1667
01:31:57,840 --> 01:32:01,000
Speaker 3: I didn't even see straight because her bangs are.

1668
01:32:00,920 --> 01:32:06,559
Speaker 7: So I I knows hair, what.

1669
01:32:06,680 --> 01:32:08,760
Speaker 2: Is happening with the Bangs right now, because you are

1670
01:32:08,920 --> 01:32:12,479
Speaker 2: rocking bangs today and you yeah, it looks.

1671
01:32:12,720 --> 01:32:15,080
Speaker 3: It in a while because it's just been I don't know,

1672
01:32:16,080 --> 01:32:18,120
Speaker 3: I love a depression hole. I don't know what to

1673
01:32:18,160 --> 01:32:24,880
Speaker 3: do because it's like the winter and it's the wind. Yeah,

1674
01:32:25,080 --> 01:32:28,479
Speaker 3: it's like seasonal disorder or something in the news, and

1675
01:32:28,520 --> 01:32:31,080
Speaker 3: it's just been like, yeah, So I've just been like

1676
01:32:31,080 --> 01:32:33,200
Speaker 3: putting a headband on lately because I just don't want

1677
01:32:33,200 --> 01:32:38,439
Speaker 3: to deal with the hair. You know. Sometimes absolutely, I'm

1678
01:32:38,439 --> 01:32:41,360
Speaker 3: crawling out of it. Baby, I'm crawling out, crawling out, well,

1679
01:32:42,800 --> 01:32:43,559
Speaker 3: cheese at a time.

1680
01:32:43,920 --> 01:32:46,040
Speaker 4: It's I I was.

1681
01:32:45,960 --> 01:32:48,000
Speaker 7: Talking to Gabe earlier, and this might make you smile.

1682
01:32:48,240 --> 01:32:52,799
Speaker 7: This coming Tuesday will be our two hundredth episode episodes.

1683
01:32:53,600 --> 01:32:54,840
Speaker 4: Could believe how did that happen?

1684
01:32:55,280 --> 01:33:00,519
Speaker 2: I I know, I know, Yes, to do a very

1685
01:33:00,520 --> 01:33:02,679
Speaker 2: special celebration on Tuesday.

1686
01:33:03,000 --> 01:33:04,600
Speaker 3: That's why Joseph will be here. We'll have to have

1687
01:33:04,640 --> 01:33:05,559
Speaker 3: a cigar with Joseph.

1688
01:33:05,920 --> 01:33:08,759
Speaker 4: Yes, okay, bring a cake count or do something exciting.

1689
01:33:08,840 --> 01:33:11,280
Speaker 3: I always imagine Joseph like the most interesting man in

1690
01:33:11,320 --> 01:33:12,880
Speaker 3: the world, you know, and he's got like a dose

1691
01:33:13,400 --> 01:33:14,240
Speaker 3: cigar or something.

1692
01:33:14,280 --> 01:33:19,479
Speaker 5: I could see that except his strength. Isn't it something

1693
01:33:19,800 --> 01:33:29,040
Speaker 5: doctor Pepper? Yeah, doctor respect sounds there mal Rummers, I think,

1694
01:33:29,160 --> 01:33:29,760
Speaker 5: yeah they are.

1695
01:33:30,160 --> 01:33:35,360
Speaker 3: And his blue wife, right, yeah, they're like like high

1696
01:33:35,400 --> 01:33:39,360
Speaker 3: school whiskey kind of guy. It seems seems like, yeah,

1697
01:33:39,400 --> 01:33:41,719
Speaker 3: like a slow gin or something, you know, like something

1698
01:33:41,960 --> 01:33:46,200
Speaker 3: very really high. Yeah, high brow. I like the Melovy

1699
01:33:46,280 --> 01:33:51,280
Speaker 3: room and doctor Pepper. Not toy on anyone's but exactly.

1700
01:33:53,400 --> 01:33:57,679
Speaker 3: I'm a tequila girl. I like tequila all the cocktail.

1701
01:33:57,760 --> 01:34:01,000
Speaker 4: Talk about it. She's we had to give up.

1702
01:34:01,439 --> 01:34:04,479
Speaker 3: Oh that's right, up liquor for lent. Oh yeah, Oh

1703
01:34:04,520 --> 01:34:06,280
Speaker 3: I forgot about that. I thought it was just the cheese.

1704
01:34:06,760 --> 01:34:07,679
Speaker 3: We haven't had any.

1705
01:34:07,560 --> 01:34:10,519
Speaker 2: Anyway either, So we've been supporting you without even meaning to.

1706
01:34:10,760 --> 01:34:15,920
Speaker 4: Oh yeah we have Oh let me.

1707
01:34:15,920 --> 01:34:19,240
Speaker 3: Live through you. Did you have comtails?

1708
01:34:20,680 --> 01:34:23,639
Speaker 7: I did well, definitely cincelent. Yeah, I had one last weekend,

1709
01:34:23,720 --> 01:34:24,439
Speaker 7: and for sure I.

1710
01:34:24,520 --> 01:34:27,120
Speaker 3: Looked at Chili's and I had a Presidente margarita and

1711
01:34:27,200 --> 01:34:28,080
Speaker 3: chips and salsas.

1712
01:34:29,080 --> 01:34:32,160
Speaker 2: Okay, well, listen, guys, we're not going to see you

1713
01:34:32,200 --> 01:34:34,360
Speaker 2: for a couple of days. But remember on Sunday, we

1714
01:34:34,400 --> 01:34:38,160
Speaker 2: are back with Vengeance, and we're bringing a little KFI

1715
01:34:38,560 --> 01:34:41,200
Speaker 2: with us SO Southern California.

1716
01:34:41,320 --> 01:34:44,479
Speaker 3: Welcome to the show. We're so so excited about here

1717
01:34:44,640 --> 01:34:45,120
Speaker 3: we come.

1718
01:34:45,600 --> 01:34:48,360
Speaker 2: We will have the weekend review and what to watch

1719
01:34:48,400 --> 01:34:49,840
Speaker 2: for all of next week.

1720
01:34:50,439 --> 01:34:53,240
Speaker 3: Stay with us. We'll see you on Sunday. Stay safe

1721
01:34:53,240 --> 01:34:54,240
Speaker 3: out there. Good night,