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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. This is Masters in

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Speaker 1: Business with Barry Ritholts on Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 2: This week on the podcast what can I say? Every

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Speaker 2: time I am afforded an opportunity to sit down with

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Speaker 2: Michael Lewis, it's just delightful. He's such a fascinating character.

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Speaker 2: The people and ideas he writes about are absolutely fascinating.

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Speaker 2: His new book, he has this just absolutely insane way

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Speaker 2: of seeing around a corner. I asked him, how come

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Speaker 2: every time you find yourself covering the subject, six months

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Speaker 2: later it blows up and it's in the headlines. He's

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Speaker 2: done it with The Big Shorty, a big short that

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Speaker 2: was mostly after the fact, But he did it with Flashboys,

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Speaker 2: and he did it with Moneyball, and he certainly did

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Speaker 2: it with Going Infinite, and now he's doing it again

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Speaker 2: with Who Is Government. We talk a little bit about

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Speaker 2: the Elon Musk and Doge, but we mostly talk about

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Speaker 2: these nameless, faithless civil servants who dedicate their career to

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Speaker 2: providing a service to the American taxpayer, and whether it's

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Speaker 2: saving lives in coal mines, or stopping cybercrime or keeping

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Speaker 2: the food supply safe. The book is just filled with

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Speaker 2: all these stories and it's absolutely a nonpartisan. It's not

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Speaker 2: a left right thing. It's Hey, there are certain things

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Speaker 2: that only government can do. The private sector is in

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Speaker 2: building the Interstate Highway System on NASA. In fact, when

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Speaker 2: you see private sector services in these spaces, it's because

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Speaker 2: they've built on top of the seminal work the government

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Speaker 2: has done that. No one would undertake these projects that

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Speaker 2: are billions of dollars and take decades. The ROI just

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Speaker 2: is too far, too long, too expensive. The book is fascinating.

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Speaker 2: Michael's fascinating. If you're listening this far into the intro,

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Speaker 2: it's because you know this is going to be delightful,

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Speaker 2: with no further ado. My discussion with Michael Lewis about

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Speaker 2: his new book, Who Is Government. Michael Lewis, I don't

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Speaker 2: have to welcome you. Let's just jump right into this

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Speaker 2: and we'll start with your prior book, The Fifth Risk,

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Speaker 2: which is really the predecessor to Who Is Government. Tell

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Speaker 2: us about that earlier book on presidential transitions.

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Speaker 3: Trump had just been elected for the first time and

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Speaker 3: he had fired his transition team, and I didn't I

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Speaker 3: learned all this after the fact, but outgoing presidents are

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Speaker 3: required by law to prepare a transition, and so the

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Speaker 3: Obama administration had deputed one thousand people inside the government

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Speaker 3: to prepare where the best course ever given on how

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Speaker 3: the government works, and not just the White House, right

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Speaker 3: the Department Energy and all those other places. And Trump

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Speaker 3: had fired the mechanism for getting the briefings. He fired

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Speaker 3: all five hundred and fifty people and told Chris Christy

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Speaker 3: that he didn't need to know because he could figure

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Speaker 3: out everything he needed to know in an hour about

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Speaker 3: how the federal government worked. When I saw this, I thought,

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Speaker 3: it's like a great comic premise. I'm going to get

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Speaker 3: to roll around the government and get the briefings, and

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Speaker 3: the reader will be on the joke that we know

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Speaker 3: more about the government than the president does because they

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Speaker 3: haven't bothered to learn. And so I and it was

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Speaker 3: just sort of like where you start and I and

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Speaker 3: they're two things. Where I started, and what kind of

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Speaker 3: the spirit in which I did it. The spirit was

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Speaker 3: go to places that no one has any idea what

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Speaker 3: they do. Like most I mean, I'm surround I'm in Berkeley,

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Speaker 3: I'm surrounded by people who talk about politics all the

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Speaker 3: time and just want to inflict their political opinions on

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Speaker 3: me constantly. But if I ask them, what is the

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Speaker 3: Department of Commerce? Do they have no.

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Speaker 2: Idea to do commerce? Right? Yeah, some business something.

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Speaker 3: What they do is weather, you know, but it would

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Speaker 3: never mind. Uh. And but I didn't know that. So

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Speaker 3: I just thought, I'm going to go to the places

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Speaker 3: that that are most opaque to the American people, and

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Speaker 3: so I picked. I picked the Department of Agriculture, Commerce,

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Speaker 3: and Energy, and thinking like, if I can make these

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Speaker 3: swing on the page, I can make anything swing on

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Speaker 3: the page. And Energy, but I started with Energy because

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Speaker 3: it was so great. He had appointed Rick Perry, former

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Speaker 3: Governor of Texas, to be the Secretary of Energy. And

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Speaker 3: Rick Perry had called for the elimination of the Department

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Speaker 3: of Energy when he was round for president, like all

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Speaker 3: this waste and fraud and the government, we're gonna get

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Speaker 3: rid of whole departments. In one of them's department Energy,

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Speaker 3: and now he's supposed to run it. He found out

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Speaker 3: quickly what I found out when I walked in and

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Speaker 3: got the briefings that oh, they run the nuclear stockpile. Oh, oh,

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Speaker 3: they gave the loan that created Tesla. You know, Oh, oh,

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Speaker 3: this like this one thing after another in it, and

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Speaker 3: he had to backtrack in his hearing and saying, oh,

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Speaker 3: I didn't mean that, you know, really we need the

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Speaker 3: department energy and so so anyway, I don't want to

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Speaker 3: go too long about this, but to say that I

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Speaker 3: wrote these things in vanity fair long form narrative journalism.

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Speaker 3: I stapled them together into the book The Fifth Risk.

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Speaker 3: It sold half a million copies.

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Speaker 2: That's a lot for a finance book, right, and people

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Speaker 2: don't understand.

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Speaker 3: It's a lot for a book. This was an indication,

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Speaker 3: this was market testing. This was an indication to me that,

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Speaker 3: oh my god, people really do actually want to know

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Speaker 3: that there is these stories interest me. But it's not

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Speaker 3: just me. So I had in the back of that

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Speaker 3: in the back of my mind over the last few years,

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Speaker 3: because I had this other takeaway from The Fifth Risk,

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Speaker 3: and it was although I'd written a lot about what

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Speaker 3: these place has done, it was like a travel They

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Speaker 3: were like travel pieces. It wasn't till the very end

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Speaker 3: in the paperback where I did a deep dive on

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Speaker 3: a single character, on a single bureaucrat, and he was

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Speaker 3: and I had picked him his name kind of out

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Speaker 3: of a jar it was. The material was literary, the

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Speaker 3: material was just epic. It was so good. I thought, Man,

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Speaker 3: I want to come back and just do more of that,

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Speaker 3: like grab people out of the government and just receive

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Speaker 3: right about a person I'm going to get. At some point,

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Speaker 3: it's gonna the accusation is going to arise. And it

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Speaker 3: always does, like, oh, this is just Michael Lewis making

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Speaker 3: it up, or this is Michael Lewis with his own

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Speaker 3: view or whatever. And uh so I thought, grab a

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Speaker 3: bunch of other writers and and I do it with them,

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Speaker 3: drop them in, parachute them in wherever they want to go,

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Speaker 3: and have them write stories so that you can see

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Speaker 3: just how rich and interesting a place this is. And

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Speaker 3: that's what that's that idea is what led to who

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Speaker 3: is Government?

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Speaker 2: So I have to point out what an incredible knack

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Speaker 2: you have for finding yourself in the right place at

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Speaker 2: the right moment in history. You did it with FTX

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Speaker 2: and Sam Bankman Freed in the Pure Luck. Okay, So

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Speaker 2: so now you write a book about the transition in

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Speaker 2: the first Trump administration, and lots of things you write

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Speaker 2: about in the fifth risk turn out to be very

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Speaker 2: prescient for how the administration in many different ways. I

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Speaker 2: don't want to make a blanket statement about them, but

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Speaker 2: in specific area, specific policies kind of drop the ball

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Speaker 2: and bad things happen. But the thing that's so fascinating

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Speaker 2: is this book about all these different government agencies and

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Speaker 2: the really amazing work these people do comes out right

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Speaker 2: into the doze elimination of we're going to close the

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Speaker 2: Department of Education. We're going to fire all these people,

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Speaker 2: whether we have the authority or not. Your timing is

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Speaker 2: really exquisite. Twice so you can tell me this is

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Speaker 2: dumb luck four times in a row.

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Speaker 3: All right, let me try so kinda, but let me.

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Speaker 2: Let me at a certain point. I know you're fairly humble,

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Speaker 2: and it's not a false humility, but at a certain

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Speaker 2: point us readers of your work have to say, hey,

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Speaker 2: this guy really sees around a corner, finds an area

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Speaker 2: before anyone else has any inkling. Big things are going

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Speaker 2: on there, and by the time we realize it, he

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Speaker 2: already has the full story out in paperback.

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Speaker 3: I love how much more credit you give me than

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Speaker 3: I deserve.

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Speaker 2: How are you saying it's luck? I don't believe it.

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Speaker 3: So if I were trying to explain me how if

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Speaker 3: I was trying to give myself some credit for the

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Speaker 3: serendipity of my book publication dates, I guess what I'd

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Speaker 3: say is that the best way to predict the future

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Speaker 3: is just observed very closely the present. So it's close

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Speaker 3: observation of what's going on at a moment. And it's

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Speaker 3: also the other thing is being interested in the thing

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Speaker 3: you're interested in rather than the thing everybody's talking about.

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Speaker 3: And so nobody is talking about this, but it's interesting thing.

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Speaker 3: That's that's good because it means that it's going to

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Speaker 3: be fresh and different. And I guess it maybe it's

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Speaker 3: true that when I'm closely observing something I'm really interested in,

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Speaker 3: that the world is not all that interested in that

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Speaker 3: some of those things end up being the future, and

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Speaker 3: that that's true, and so that's but it isn't like,

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Speaker 3: you know, you know, all kinds of people who make

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Speaker 3: a decent living on the lecture servant circuit being able

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Speaker 3: to pretending to be able to tell the future, pretending.

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Speaker 2: You were written.

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Speaker 3: I've just gotten how not to invest. And I assume

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Speaker 3: I will find in this book a chapter about false prognostication.

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Speaker 3: We know that you know the future. It's too complicated.

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Speaker 3: So all you could tell is the present really well.

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Speaker 3: And if you tell the present really well and you're

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Speaker 3: not just defaulting to what everybody's talking about in the moment,

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Speaker 3: you will get the future sometimes.

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Speaker 2: Huh. I love that now.

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Speaker 3: It's similar to It's similar to investing. I bet right.

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Speaker 3: It's like, Oh, this company really interests me. Why isn't

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Speaker 3: any Boddy here? Why isn't anybody investing in it? But

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Speaker 3: I'm really interested in it. That's like a great sign

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Speaker 3: that you're interested in nobody else has figured it out yet.

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Speaker 3: And that's the that's a great sign with writing too.

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Speaker 2: So something interests you. What I find fascinating is you

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Speaker 2: end up kind of embedding yourself in unfamiliar places and

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Speaker 2: fields that you haven't necessarily studied before.

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Speaker 3: I don't know anything about it.

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Speaker 2: Right like you like? So, by the way, that is

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Speaker 2: a sign of a of a curious intellect. Hey, I

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Speaker 2: don't know anything about this. I'm going deep down the

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Speaker 2: rabbit hole learn. But a lot of these things are

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Speaker 2: kind of big institutions that don't trust outsiders, that don't

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Speaker 2: trust the media or authors. How do you win these

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Speaker 2: people over? I mean, you know twenty twenty is Michael

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Speaker 2: Lewis's well known guy. And maybe you have an ability

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Speaker 2: to gain the trust of people now, but you've been

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Speaker 2: doing this your whole career. How do you win the

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Speaker 2: trust and how do you get close to people who

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Speaker 2: are skeptical and reserved and holding the public in arms distance.

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Speaker 3: So we've seen you've seen how Elon Musk has approached

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Speaker 3: government employees over the last sixty days with hostility and

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Speaker 3: malice and condescension, and that it's the opposite of the

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Speaker 3: way to approach someone if you actually want to learn.

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Speaker 3: So I don't have a perfect answer to this, but

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Speaker 3: I'll say a couple of things that I think help me.

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Speaker 3: One is I'm usually just genuinely curious, Like I really

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Speaker 3: have some questions I want to answer. Why are you

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Speaker 3: winning baseball games? You know, like, explain it to me.

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Speaker 3: How did you figure out to short the market in

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Speaker 3: two thousand and seven? How did you figure out how

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Speaker 3: to stop coal mine rules from falling in on the

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Speaker 3: heads of coal miners? Like I just like, it's like

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Speaker 3: something has happened here and you know the answer, and

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Speaker 3: I genuinely want to know the answer. People respond to

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Speaker 3: genuine curiosity, which is different from I have a theory

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Speaker 3: and I want you to sort of dance inside my theory,

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Speaker 3: which is like I've sat in a room and I

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Speaker 3: decided there's a story here. This is the story. I'm

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Speaker 3: just going to gather some quotes to fill in the story.

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Speaker 3: Nothing I've done this any good. Is that it's always

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Speaker 3: like just a glimmer of an interest and I just

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Speaker 3: want to know. And so it creates a natural learning environment.

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Speaker 3: That's one. Two. Don't be boring, like if if it's

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Speaker 3: if it's tedious for me to show up, like that's bad,

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Speaker 3: and which you want almost the opposite. It's like I

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Speaker 3: hope he comes because I learned something last time just

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Speaker 3: from the questions he asked, and he adds value in

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Speaker 3: some other way, like he brings good sandwiches or whatever.

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Speaker 3: So no, it's so it's like you want to create

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Speaker 3: an incentive system, right, people respond to incentives you want

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Speaker 3: to create. You want to make them want you there.

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Speaker 3: It's not not just not want you there, it's like

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Speaker 3: want you there. So that's that's a second sort of prerequisite.

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Speaker 3: And thed is I try to make it clear what

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Speaker 3: I'm thinking when I'm thinking it and so I'm not

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Speaker 3: hiding like myself from the person I'm writing about. I'm

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Speaker 3: letting them get to know me a little bit. If

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Speaker 3: I'm letting them bouncing theories off them and listening to

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Speaker 3: respond and object or whatever, and so that they don't

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Speaker 3: they aren't shocked. They're often shocked when they read the

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Speaker 3: book because they're surprised what I've decided is important and

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Speaker 3: what isn't. They're sometimes shocked by the way I see

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Speaker 3: them or describe them, a little shocked, but they aren't

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Speaker 3: shocked by like what I'm interested in. They don't have

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Speaker 3: a feeling I'm being sneaky, so that all those help

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Speaker 3: I think, and I say this that people I write

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Speaker 3: about they often are really interesting people with really interesting stories.

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Speaker 3: And while they may not think of themselves and usually

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Speaker 3: don't think of themselves as characters, they're very aware they're

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Speaker 3: in the middle of something interesting. That's why they're doing it.

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Speaker 3: So they can understand why I'm so interested, Like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I get it. I get why you have all of

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Speaker 3: a sudden gotten interested in local public health, says Charity Dean,

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Speaker 3: because it's broken and that's why we're not responding well

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Speaker 3: with this. You know, it's like, or I get why

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Speaker 3: Sam bgmanfreed. He understood I thought of him as weird,

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Speaker 3: Like you are a weirdo moving through the world with

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Speaker 3: a very weird view of the world, and you're seeking

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Speaker 3: to impose this sort of abstract idea about how to

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Speaker 3: live on the world around you, and I just want

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Speaker 3: to watch it. And he's like, yeah, I get that.

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Speaker 3: I know I'm weird. I know what's happening is weird,

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Speaker 3: and I understand why you're amused by it. Go ahead,

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Speaker 3: watch you know that? So that it has to be

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Speaker 3: an honest relationship, right, it just has to be an

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Speaker 3: honest relationship.

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Speaker 2: So I'm curious. You've delved into baseball, into football, into

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Speaker 2: high frequency trading, psychology, now government. What what's been the

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Speaker 2: biggest surprise that you found in all these areas, Like

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Speaker 2: you're delving into things that interest you, But what what

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Speaker 2: really sticks out in any of your books where you say, huh,

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Speaker 2: didn't see that coming? Not counting SBF getting buss.

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Speaker 3: Are you took away the easy one?

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Speaker 2: Right? That's how I know I did that on purpose?

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Speaker 2: That's the obvious one. Although as as I was reading

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Speaker 2: that book, your book going infinite, like like there are

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Speaker 2: all sorts of little signposts along the way. I'm sure

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Speaker 2: a lot of that's just hindsight biased. But as you

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Speaker 2: were writing those chapters that hadn't yet happened, but as

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Speaker 2: you're reading it, it's like, oh, this.

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Speaker 3: Can't be good.

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Speaker 2: You know, all these little little it's like a fault

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Speaker 2: line with an earthquake. All these little pressures are building

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Speaker 2: up along the book. I don't know if that's intentional.

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Speaker 3: Oh, totally intentional. I didn't start writing it until it

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Speaker 3: all blew up.

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Speaker 2: Oh you didn't, all right, So yeah, it's intention But

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Speaker 2: that was an obvious one. What what like? I didn't

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Speaker 2: see that coming.

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Speaker 3: All right. So here's one from this book. This is

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Speaker 3: illustrating a general point. And the general point is the

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Speaker 3: difference between what you imagine a story is and what's

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Speaker 3: going on in the world. What you're what's going on

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Speaker 3: here when you're just doing through abstract kind of speculation,

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Speaker 3: compared to when you go out and report and learn

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Speaker 3: and collide with the world, And how much more interesting

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Speaker 3: the world ends up being than you imagine, even when

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Speaker 3: you imagine it being interesting. So the first story in

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Speaker 3: this book, Christopher Mark, how do I find it? I

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Speaker 3: find it because I get a list of nominees for

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Speaker 3: Civil Service Awards. It's like six hundred people on this list.

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Speaker 3: How do you pick one of them? It's all these

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Speaker 3: names and descriptions of things they've done. Joe Blow with

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Speaker 3: the FBI has broken up a child porn ring, but

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Speaker 3: doesn't say aything about Joe Blow. I get to a

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Speaker 3: name on the list. It says, Chris Mark solve the

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Speaker 3: problem of coal mine ruse falling in on the heads

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Speaker 3: of coal miners, which killed fifty thousand coal miners in

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Speaker 3: the last century. A former coal miner, it says, all right.

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Speaker 3: Sitting at my desk, I'm thinking, man, there's a story,

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Speaker 3: and IDY think I know what the story is. I

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Speaker 3: think the story is all right. This guy probably grew

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Speaker 3: up in West Virginia, former coal miner. He's there's gotta

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Speaker 3: been some personal if it's killing all these coal miners,

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Speaker 3: and he got out of the coal mine to fix it.

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Speaker 3: A friend, a relative, someone got killed by a coal mine.

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Speaker 3: He that it was like there's a movie in this

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Speaker 3: kind of I already had it into my head, but

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Speaker 3: then I call him up. I find him. He lives

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Speaker 3: in Pittsburgh. He knows who I am, because he's read Moneyball.

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Speaker 3: He's like, why the hell you calling me? Like it

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Speaker 3: was just bizarre, Like he took me a while to

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Speaker 3: believe it was me. And I said, I just like

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Speaker 3: I saw this line on a list. He didn't even

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Speaker 3: know he'd been nominated for a prize, so it was

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Speaker 3: especially weird. And I said, I said, like, I just

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Speaker 3: just give me the five minute summer of your story.

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Speaker 3: And he says the first thing A's mouth is, I

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Speaker 3: grew up in Princeton, New Jersey, and my dad was

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Speaker 3: a professor at the university. I thought, oh, there goes

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Speaker 3: my story.

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Speaker 2: Right, so much of presumptionswhe for the movie, right, well,

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Speaker 2: but hold on.

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Speaker 3: In the next ten minutes, he tells me this he

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Speaker 3: had been a radical in the sixties as a little kid,

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Speaker 3: radically I started calling throwing around words like bourgeois at

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Speaker 3: his father said that he was like, didn't want to

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Speaker 3: join the ruling class, didn't want to go to Harvard,

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Speaker 3: which he could have, and leaves high school early to

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Speaker 3: go join the working class, much to his father's chagrin.

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Speaker 3: Like his father really upset. His father is a famous guy,

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Speaker 3: I mean in his world. Robert Mark, Robert Mark, was

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Speaker 3: a civil engineer who took technology he used to like

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Speaker 3: stress test fighter planes for the Air Force and nuclear

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Speaker 3: reactors for Princeton. He took it and used it to

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Speaker 3: figure out to stress test Gothic cathedrals. He built little

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Speaker 3: models of like sharks and rim and he could show

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Speaker 3: what was holding the roof up basically, and he could

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Speaker 3: also show why it might collapse and where it was weak.

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Speaker 3: And so he actually taught all architectural historians how the

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Speaker 3: medieval builders had built the Gothic cathedrals. And there's actually

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Speaker 3: documentaries about him in this so anyway, that's his dad.

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Speaker 3: Chris rebels against his dad, not gonna have anything to

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Speaker 3: do with your way of life, not having to do

355
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Speaker 3: anything with you, ends up working in an auto factory,

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Speaker 3: in a ups plant, and finally in a coal mine

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Speaker 3: in West Virginia. He ends up with like his fellow

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Speaker 3: Young Radicals, nineteen years old, working in a coal mine.

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Speaker 3: The Young Radicals last like a day because it's so awful.

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Speaker 3: Chris actually likes the working in the coal mine, He's

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Speaker 3: interested in it, but it's incredibly dangerous. He almost is

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Speaker 3: killed twice by falling roofs. Eventually figures I could get

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Speaker 3: out of this and figure out how to stop this.

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Speaker 3: He goes back to Penn State, gets his degree. Then

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Speaker 3: he's got his own intellectual journey, right. This is which

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Speaker 3: I don't get into. While I'm talking to him in

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Speaker 3: this first phone call, he says, it took, you know,

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Speaker 3: took thirty years, but I figured out how to keep

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Speaker 3: the roofs of coal mines from falling on the heads

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Speaker 3: of coal miners. And I say, oh, so you tell

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Speaker 3: me get your dad who was figuring out how the

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Speaker 3: rooms of goth The cathedrals didn't fall down, and you

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Speaker 3: just do the same thing underground. You figure out like

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Speaker 3: how to keep the roof of a coal mine up.

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Speaker 3: And he in the first twenty minutes, he's pissed at me.

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Speaker 3: He says, I have nothing to do with my dad.

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Speaker 3: It has nothing whatsoever to do with what my father did.

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Speaker 3: And I thought, oh my god, this is even better

379
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Speaker 3: than I thought. It's a father son's story, and the

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Speaker 3: son thinks he's rebelling against his father, and in fact

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Speaker 3: he goes and sort of lives out a different version

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Speaker 3: of his father's life. And what's wild about the story.

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Speaker 3: So I have that thought, and when I start to

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Speaker 3: get to know him. It takes a while before he

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Speaker 3: says to me, like days of spending time with him, Oh,

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Speaker 3: and my dad and I finally kind of collaborated. I

387
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Speaker 3: said what, and he says, yeah, yeah. The government called

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Speaker 3: my father because they thought the National Cathedral in Washington

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Speaker 3: was falling down. And I don't know that National Cathedral

390
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Speaker 3: in Washington was built over a centuries tilted. They what

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Speaker 3: happen was they built insufficient foundation for what they redesigned

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Speaker 3: on top of it. And the father is brought into like, oh, Jesus,

393
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Speaker 3: can you tell us how to keep this thing from falling?

394
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Speaker 3: And the father gets there and realizes the problems underground,

395
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Speaker 3: and so he has to call his son, and together

396
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Speaker 3: they write a paper explaining why it's not going to

397
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Speaker 3: you know, how it's all working and why it's probably

398
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Speaker 3: not going to fall down. But it's beautiful. It's absolutely beautiful,

399
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Speaker 3: like an amazing story, and it was so different from

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Speaker 3: what my feeble imagination had dreamed of. And this happens

401
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Speaker 3: over and over and over and over.

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Speaker 2: You know the most amazing thing about that chapter And

403
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Speaker 2: we'll talk about the book in more detail in a

404
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Speaker 2: few minutes. You kind of buried the lead in your discussion.

405
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Speaker 2: He is studying this problem for thirty years, like this

406
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Speaker 2: isn't like he keeps coming back to it. This is

407
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Speaker 2: three decades of his life, and he eventually figures it out.

408
00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:07,440
Speaker 2: Issues like a set of guidelines to coal companies and

409
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Speaker 2: every engineer and every safety person in every coal mine

410
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Speaker 2: that now becomes the standard. Plus the government makes it

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Speaker 2: a regulatory requirement. And it wasn't that. Oh, the free

412
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Speaker 2: market figured this out. But for the regulations, we would

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Speaker 2: still be having all these coal mine collapses.

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Speaker 3: What's wildly cool about Christopher Mark is it not only

415
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Speaker 3: does he do all this, he becomes the historian of

416
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Speaker 3: his own subject. He becomes and he writes these papers

417
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Speaker 3: explaining why coal mine safety was so poor, and he

418
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Speaker 3: finds the whole world in this very narrow subject. And

419
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Speaker 3: there's a moment that's actually really interesting where he shows

420
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Speaker 3: that the technology had been created to actually just prevent

421
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Speaker 3: a lot of the disasters. And the coal mine industry was.

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Speaker 2: Talking about the ceiling, the roof bolts the boats.

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Speaker 3: You bolt the roof to itself. It's not intuitive like

424
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Speaker 3: when they first started doing it, the miners like, what

425
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:10,840
Speaker 3: the hell, how you going to bolt the roof to itself,

426
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:15,880
Speaker 3: but you both you drill. Essentially you're attaching more less

427
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:20,719
Speaker 3: unstable rock to deeper, more stable rock, and you anchor

428
00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:24,320
Speaker 3: it in what's in the mountain above it. But I mean,

429
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Speaker 3: this is a long time ago. This is invented fifty

430
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Speaker 3: sixty years ago or whatever. But instead of using the

431
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Speaker 3: technology properly, like in a way that really prevents reduces

432
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:39,280
Speaker 3: roof falls, the industry uses it to make it cheaper,

433
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:41,720
Speaker 3: to make it just as safe as it's always been,

434
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,720
Speaker 3: meaning not safe. So they maintain the same level of mortality,

435
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,199
Speaker 3: like the same level of risk. It's just less cost

436
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:51,399
Speaker 3: and just reducing the cost of what they're doing to

437
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,600
Speaker 3: hold the roof up. And so what they've done, and

438
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:58,919
Speaker 3: it's because it's because the industry was so competitive that

439
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 3: nobody could take this step of making the extra expense

440
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:05,840
Speaker 3: of making the mind really safe. And they had acclimated

441
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 3: the working guys in West Virginia mainly, but the coal

442
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,119
Speaker 3: miners who work everywhere in the country to this level

443
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:14,760
Speaker 3: of risk, so they were just used to it. It

444
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:18,120
Speaker 3: was really interesting that the market. You would think, if

445
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:19,919
Speaker 3: you were sitting in a room alone thinking about it,

446
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 3: you think, oh, some coal mine company is going to

447
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,520
Speaker 3: make their mind safer, and that's going to make it

448
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:29,639
Speaker 3: easier to tract workers less expense because the roof is

449
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:32,400
Speaker 3: not falling in as much. But no, that's not what happened.

450
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:33,639
Speaker 3: You're familiar with.

451
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:36,560
Speaker 2: You're familiar with the Peltzman effect. Does that ring a bell?

452
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 3: No, tell me what it is?

453
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 2: Soo, Sam Peltzman, And this is in twenty forty my

454
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:47,760
Speaker 2: next book. Sam Peltzman's a guy who studies seat belts

455
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:51,360
Speaker 2: and air bags and abs and all that stuff, and

456
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 2: what turns out to happen is exactly what happened with

457
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,480
Speaker 2: the coal mine. Oh, as soon as you get a

458
00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 2: seat belt and an air bag, you're driving. Oh, this

459
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:03,680
Speaker 2: car feels solid and safe. So I could drive a

460
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 2: little faster. And so we have all the safety equipment

461
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 2: that keeps getting built into cars, and yet the fatality

462
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:14,280
Speaker 2: rates don't drop. It's not that we're all going to

463
00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:17,280
Speaker 2: just do fifty five and with that much safer, all

464
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 2: this great crumple zones and lane detection and all these things.

465
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:25,399
Speaker 2: They make us complacent and comfortable, and so we drive faster,

466
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 2: and the fatality rates are the same. So you can

467
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:34,440
Speaker 2: either maintain the same behavior and have the fatality rate drop,

468
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 2: or like drivers and coal mine companies, you could have

469
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,480
Speaker 2: the same fatality rate but with a whole lot more

470
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:47,480
Speaker 2: speed and or coal mining. It's a fascinating psycholophal Then.

471
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:52,480
Speaker 3: What is I want you to apply that effect to investing?

472
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,120
Speaker 3: What's the aversion of the the Peltzman effect.

473
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:59,479
Speaker 2: I think what it really is about is the broader

474
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 2: picture is unintended consequences. You think, when the seat belt

475
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 2: laws are passed, the result will be we'll have fewer

476
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 2: deaths and safer vehicles. But instead the actual unintended consequence

477
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:19,320
Speaker 2: is that people dress drive faster. So from investing perspective,

478
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 2: you know, Paul Volker famously said there have been no

479
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:28,640
Speaker 2: other than the ATM, there's been no innovations in finance,

480
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:32,399
Speaker 2: But there actually have been between ETFs and online trading,

481
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 2: and now trading is free, and I in the book,

482
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 2: I go through a whole long list and what ends

483
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 2: up happening, and now you have the gamification of robinhood.

484
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:46,479
Speaker 2: So instead of making things cheaper and easier and faster

485
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 2: for investors, we're still encouraging, or at least the industry

486
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:54,719
Speaker 2: is encouraging many of our own worst instincts and of

487
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 2: course the outcomes. Instead of saying, hey, I could buy

488
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:01,119
Speaker 2: an ETF and buy the whole market for three BIPs

489
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:04,160
Speaker 2: and it costs me nothing to trade and wow, isn't

490
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,880
Speaker 2: that great? Instead of doing that, a lot of people say, oh,

491
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 2: I could day trade. I could you know, jump in

492
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 2: and out of Nvidia. This is a this is great.

493
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 2: It is the airbags, abs and seatbelts of investing. And

494
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:21,640
Speaker 2: instead of taking the win, we just keep pushing our risk.

495
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,639
Speaker 2: Aversion slides up with the lack of friction.

496
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,359
Speaker 3: That the greater the illusion of safety we create in

497
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,919
Speaker 3: the markets, the more people, the more recklessly the people.

498
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:35,960
Speaker 2: Behave, especially if you're in the midst of a bull market. Yeah,

499
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,480
Speaker 2: because at that point, hey, markets only go up, that's

500
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 2: all they do. So I say this to you all

501
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 2: the time and you push back, But I got to

502
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 2: bring it up again. All of the characters in the

503
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 2: book are very Michael Lewis. They're all outsiders, they're quirky,

504
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:58,399
Speaker 2: they're pushing against the grain because they've discovered some great

505
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 2: out of consensus. True, you've disagreed with that description before.

506
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 2: Has this book changed your mind? Because it's even the

507
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 2: chapters you didn't write are still Michael Lewis characters.

508
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 3: All right, so I want you to all right, I'm

509
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 3: going to push back again. These writers who did this

510
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 3: with me are some of my favorite writers on the planet.

511
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:21,920
Speaker 2: And they are all excellent.

512
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,120
Speaker 3: So only just name them so people know. It's Dave Eggers,

513
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:30,399
Speaker 3: Geraldine Brooks, cam Al Bell, Casey Sepp, Sarah val and

514
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 3: John Lanchester. So John Lanchester English writer, and they all

515
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 3: have they were I picked them one because they're all fun,

516
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 3: two because they're all able to kind of go in

517
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 3: and find stories that other people don't see. And three

518
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 3: their voices are so different from each other. I thought

519
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 3: they'd find very different things. John Lanchester, he doesn't find

520
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 3: a person. He finds the Consumer Price Index. The whole

521
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 3: chapter about I just found riveting about what the United

522
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 3: States does to count things. And then the United States

523
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 3: government is like the greatest counting mechanism in the world.

524
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 3: And then it's that it's the one democracy where counting was.

525
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 3: It was it was built into the constitution. You couldn't

526
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 3: distribute power unless you had a census to count where

527
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 3: the population was. And he says as example, he and

528
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 3: how complicated this is and how much you know how

529
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 3: much expertise is deployed within the government to do it well.

530
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 3: He explains over many pages how the consumer Price Index

531
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 3: is put together. So right there, there you go. There

532
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 3: is something that I that is not a Michael Lewis character.

533
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 2: That's the exception that proves the rule. And I'm gonna

534
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 2: I'm gonna put this back.

535
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:38,960
Speaker 3: Exceptions don't prove rules. Just so you know, exception when

536
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 3: that that expression means it tests the rule, okay, And

537
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 3: so that I just tested your rule. So you gave

538
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 3: me again.

539
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 2: You gave me the one chapter that wasn't a Michael

540
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 2: michael Lewis character. So the conversation we just had about

541
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 2: Christopher Mark and the coal mines, Oh my god, how

542
00:29:56,120 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 2: is he not a total Michael Lewis Right, next chapter

543
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 2: and you didn't write this. I think this was Casey

544
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 2: Seff's chapter about Ronald Walters and the National Cemetery Administration.

545
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 3: For this is a little bit of a cheap because

546
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 3: Casey asked me if I had anything back them on

547
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 3: the cut she had She said, we said, do you

548
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 3: have anything on the cutting room floor from the fifth risk?

549
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 3: And I had all this stuff on the cutting room

550
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 3: floor because there was so much stuff, and I said,

551
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 3: you know, there is this dude who wouldn't take my calls,

552
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 3: like I couldn't get him really, Oh yeah, no, it

553
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 3: was it was like they didn't want to and I

554
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 3: of course was going through communications as officials, and they

555
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 3: don't never respond properly. But his name was Ron Walters.

556
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 3: And what I knew was this that they're inside the

557
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 3: Veterans Administration. There's something called the there's a function, the

558
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 3: management of the National Cemeteries where we bury our war dead,

559
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 3: we bury our veterans. It is a sacred duty of

560
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 3: the society. And that this that, like all the functions

561
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 3: of the all the different ages and sees, this place

562
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 3: has its customer satisfaction measured by survey and that when

563
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 3: Ron Walter came into the job of running the National Cemeteries,

564
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 3: it had very mediocre customer satisfaction. I don't know why.

565
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 3: I don't know what was going on. I don't know

566
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 3: anything in the story. Casey wrote the story, but that

567
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 3: over a couple of decades he took the place from

568
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 3: being kind of mediocre to having the highest customer satisfaction

569
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 3: of any institution in America, private or public. That includes Costco, Walmart, FedEx.

570
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 3: He somehow figured out the problem, and no one knew

571
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 3: he was. He didn't advertise himself. If he had done

572
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 3: this in business, he'd be like on the cover of

573
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:46,360
Speaker 3: business magazines and giving lectures for money on the lecture circuit,

574
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 3: you know that. But he he was just a faceless

575
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 3: bureaucrat who would figure something out. And I said to

576
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 3: Casey go, I'd write about him, And for whatever reason,

577
00:31:55,960 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 3: he took her call and she and she she walks

578
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 3: us through his story.

579
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 2: First of all, that that chapter made me cry. Number one.

580
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 2: It's incredibly touching, and it makes you proud to be

581
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 2: an American. It really I know that's corny, but it

582
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 2: really does. But all right, so that's a cheat.

583
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 3: Let me so the next one, Dave, it's probably Dave Eggers.

584
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 3: Dave Eggers, and he goes and finds the people in

585
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 3: Nasau who looking for little green men in deep outer.

586
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 2: Space, oh searchers.

587
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, so maybe not a little green men,

588
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:32,640
Speaker 3: they're looking for life out of it.

589
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 2: Well, and the fascinating thing is we're going to clearly

590
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 2: find the first line I highlighted in all likelihood in

591
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 2: the next twenty five years we'll find evidence of life

592
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 2: on another planet. I want to say this because I'm

593
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 2: not a scientist and I don't work in media relations, Vanessa.

594
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 2: What he's talking initially about is not intelligent star trek,

595
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 2: star wars life. But hey, there's hydrogen, carbon, oxygen, nitrogen everywhere.

596
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 2: Those are the fundamental building blocks. And we'll find some

597
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 2: bacteria somewhere.

598
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:04,960
Speaker 3: You know what they're gonna find. They're going to find

599
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 3: the Peltsman effect. You're gonna find somewhere way out there.

600
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 3: They're gonna someone will have discovered the Peltzman effect. But

601
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 3: the yes, so Dave, so, how Dave? So, Dave is

602
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 3: working with these characters? I thought Dave I told Dave this, Uh,

603
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 3: just the other day that Dave when he announced he

604
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 3: was doing Nasau and these people who were doing this

605
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 3: incredibly cool work at the Jet Propulsion Lab in California.

606
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 3: Geraldine Brooks, another the writer, said, Yep, Dave is way

607
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 3: too talented to do this. This is such an easy

608
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 3: thing to make interesting. He needs to pick something that's

609
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,480
Speaker 3: harder to write about. That this was. She thought he

610
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 3: was cheating, that it was just like, of course, everybody's

611
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 3: gonna love to read about this and Geraldine said to him,

612
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 3: said to me, to say to him, if he does that,

613
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 3: I'm going to find the most repulsive government worker to

614
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 3: write about. I'm going to go into the IRS, the

615
00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 3: most hated, loathed branch of the government, and I'm gonna

616
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 3: write about the IRS. So she did that in response

617
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 3: to Dave's piece. And she does do that so that

618
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:10,359
Speaker 3: I wouldn't. I mean, Dave has more Those characters are

619
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:13,799
Speaker 3: not characters I would have naturally sought out. They are characters.

620
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:16,839
Speaker 3: So as he puts it, he was like, he has

621
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:19,800
Speaker 3: no scientific aptitude. He like he stopped doing math and

622
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 3: science when he was like seven years old. He's a

623
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 3: poet at heart. So he finds it riveting when when

624
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:30,160
Speaker 3: scientists can make comprehensible to him complicated stuff they're doing.

625
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 3: And he had found these people and they could explain

626
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 3: in a way, he could explain how they were doing

627
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 3: what they were doing. And it is riveting.

628
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 2: But but it's also very Michael Lewis, these are quirky.

629
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:44,800
Speaker 2: You know, these are very quirky characters.

630
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:45,839
Speaker 3: All Right, I'm gonna push back.

631
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:48,479
Speaker 2: I'm right, But before you push back, you just brought

632
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:52,400
Speaker 2: up Geraldine Brooke Brooks and the cyber sleuth in the IRS.

633
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 2: Here's a guy who's an accountant, teaching classes in Brazilian

634
00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 2: jiu jitsu and like like becoming a ninth level black

635
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:04,799
Speaker 2: Like that is not your run of the mill. I

636
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:06,720
Speaker 2: need your papers to get your taxes filed.

637
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 3: No, he'd he works in the cyber crime division of

638
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:12,840
Speaker 3: the I R S and has collected billions of dollars

639
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 3: for the government busting up cyber crime rings. Jared Coopman

640
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:20,840
Speaker 3: his name. And here's here's a kicker for you. His unit,

641
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 3: which is like a huge profit maker. They I mean,

642
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:28,320
Speaker 3: they cost nothing and they generate billions. Has been gutted

643
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,279
Speaker 3: by Doge in any case, but this is before it

644
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 3: was gutted. Geraldine found this dude. I don't know how

645
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 3: she found him. Actually she just went off. She said,

646
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 3: I'm going in the IRS and I'm coming out with

647
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 3: a story. And so she went into the IRS and

648
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:44,760
Speaker 3: found him and and called me. You know, it's funny

649
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:47,359
Speaker 3: she did call me, So this is not pushing back

650
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 3: on you. When she was done with the story, she

651
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:52,240
Speaker 3: had to go back to a novel she was writing

652
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 3: kind of thing, and she said, this is such your

653
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:57,760
Speaker 3: kind of story. She said, there's there's all this stuff

654
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 3: behind it. You really need to look into it, like

655
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:02,839
Speaker 3: it might be a book for you. So she had

656
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 3: the thought she'd run into a story that I might

657
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 3: have written, and that might be true there. But here's

658
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 3: what I'm going to. Let me say this. Maybe I'm

659
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 3: so jazzed by our federal government because when you walk

660
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:20,880
Speaker 3: into these places, they're all these really curious characters doing

661
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 3: really curious things, and you haven't heard of them, and

662
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 3: you might not think they're important until you do. And

663
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:30,279
Speaker 3: they are characters in the best sense. They don't think

664
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,359
Speaker 3: of themselves as characters. They just like they are who

665
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 3: they are, and they can be kind of shockingly interesting

666
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:40,280
Speaker 3: without realizing how interesting they are, and that the stuff

667
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 3: they're doing is breathtakingly important, like existential risk level of importance.

668
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:49,959
Speaker 3: So yes, I'm interested in that. And they're all over

669
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:52,400
Speaker 3: the government. And I think that if you said you

670
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:54,840
Speaker 3: have to spend the rest of your career wandering this

671
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 3: institution writing about these people, I could pull it off.

672
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 3: That I could. I I could. I could use it

673
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:04,479
Speaker 3: as a launch pad for every other book I ever wrote.

674
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 3: If I had to.

675
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 2: You mentioned dosee. One of the things that comes up

676
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:11,840
Speaker 2: in the book in her chapter is these guys that

677
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:16,240
Speaker 2: are literally saving tens of billions of dollars in cyber fraud.

678
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:19,760
Speaker 2: They're paytops out at like one hundred and thirty thousand

679
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 2: dollars something crazy, Like any one of them could go

680
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:25,800
Speaker 2: to a Wall Street bank and ten x their salary.

681
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 3: Yep.

682
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 2: Like, stop and think about how insane that is. And

683
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 2: we got to cut those jobs and.

684
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:32,440
Speaker 3: Then we don't. Yeah that you fire them, and not

685
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:34,759
Speaker 3: only that, you insult them before you fire them, give

686
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:36,839
Speaker 3: me a list of the five things you did last week.

687
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:40,360
Speaker 3: You know. It's just it's obscene what's going on right now.

688
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:42,439
Speaker 3: And that's one of that that would be a place

689
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 3: where you would dramatize some of the obscenity. Yeah. So

690
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:49,239
Speaker 3: I don't think there's a character in the book that

691
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:51,759
Speaker 3: couldn't be paid a whole lot more money outside of

692
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,439
Speaker 3: the federal government. And this is another thing. I think

693
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:56,879
Speaker 3: this is between the lines of the book. But all

694
00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 3: these people are much more interested in mission than money,

695
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 3: and this is hard for Wall Street people to get

696
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:03,880
Speaker 3: their minds around sometimes. But I don't think entirely there

697
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:05,279
Speaker 3: are a lot of Wall Street people who really get

698
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 3: the joy of mission. And these are people who are

699
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:12,359
Speaker 3: taking pay cuts because they want to do this thing.

700
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:15,880
Speaker 3: And nobody says this in any of the chapters, but

701
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 3: I think all of the chapters say this. All these

702
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 3: people have found the secret to a meaningful life. They've

703
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:25,279
Speaker 3: all they None of these people on their deathbeds are

704
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:27,360
Speaker 3: going to look up and say, well, I wish I

705
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 3: wish I'd gone to Goldman, you know that I wish

706
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:32,800
Speaker 3: I'd made a whole lot of money. That they all

707
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 3: full feel like they did what they were supposed to do,

708
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:38,280
Speaker 3: and that that's kind of cool.

709
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 2: Uh.

710
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 3: There is this thing going on how to lead your

711
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 3: life right through it, right through the whole book. And

712
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:45,720
Speaker 3: I and as a moment when I'm talking to Chris Mark,

713
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:48,920
Speaker 3: who I mean, one of the reasons I find it

714
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 3: hard to report Chris Mark, the coal mine guy, is

715
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:54,480
Speaker 3: that you know, he won't stay in the Ritz, They'll

716
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:56,200
Speaker 3: stay in the hampton In. So I got to stay

717
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:59,399
Speaker 3: in the hampton In. You know, you know, he wants

718
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:00,960
Speaker 3: to sit in the back of the plane, so I

719
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 3: got to sit in the back of the plane. And

720
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 3: so you know it's like that I have, you know,

721
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,400
Speaker 3: a standard of comfort. I've gotten used to that he

722
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 3: finds like immoral, maybe too strong a word, but like unnecessary.

723
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:15,840
Speaker 3: And at one point he said to me, and I

724
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:18,279
Speaker 3: put it in the book because he has decided to

725
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 3: live a life that's materially modest but spiritually rich. He

726
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 3: said to me. We taught our kids there there are

727
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:26,960
Speaker 3: two ways to be rich. One is to make a

728
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 3: lot of money, and the other one is to not

729
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 3: need very much. And I just thought, wow, you know,

730
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:31,920
Speaker 3: it's interesting.

731
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:35,840
Speaker 2: Say what you will about the luxury quality of the

732
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 2: Hampton end. It ain't a coal mine if you spent

733
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 2: and he spends a year or two working in a

734
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:45,279
Speaker 2: coal mine. Wait, I'm above ground on clean sheets, with

735
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:48,800
Speaker 2: air conditioning and heat.

736
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:50,840
Speaker 3: And a peloton. Now, I couldn't believe it. There's a

737
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 3: peloton in there.

738
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 2: By the way. When I first saw this title, I

739
00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:58,759
Speaker 2: picked up the book and I'm like, huh, I wonder

740
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:00,879
Speaker 2: if Michael is going to get a little partisan. This

741
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:03,800
Speaker 2: is one of those things that could really red state

742
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 2: blue state. But there's none of that. This is all

743
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 2: about you pay taxes and here's what the government does

744
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:14,920
Speaker 2: to serve you. Whether you're the family of a deceased

745
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 2: veteran or relying on weather forecasts, or stopping cybercrime, or

746
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 2: you know, on and on it goes. These are really broad,

747
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 2: non partisan topics. Did did it ever enter your mind? Oh,

748
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:34,920
Speaker 2: someone's gonna accuse me. Oh that that punk Berkeley rider

749
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 2: is really a libtard and we really don't care what

750
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:40,439
Speaker 2: he has to say. Did that ever enter your mind

751
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 2: as you were putting this together?

752
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:44,760
Speaker 3: Of course, I mean it was, It was top of mind,

753
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 3: but in a way, I mean because it has happened

754
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:50,719
Speaker 3: already and it will happen that you It is a

755
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:53,920
Speaker 3: feature of our society right now that everything gets quickly politicized,

756
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 3: and you're either you're either in tribe or tribe tribe b.

757
00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:00,480
Speaker 3: You're either you're either an Ole miss rebel or Alabama

758
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:03,840
Speaker 3: Crimson Tide player. You know, it's it's you're you're on

759
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:07,080
Speaker 3: one team or the other. That people need to need

760
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 3: to see you that way, especially the people who are

761
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:15,239
Speaker 3: most absorbed with the politics. And if you write anything,

762
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:19,760
Speaker 3: the challenge is the assumptions, prejudices, bigotry of one side

763
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 3: or the other. They're going to try to dismiss it

764
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:25,240
Speaker 3: by just saying you're a member of the other tribe.

765
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 3: So I can't you just can't do anything about that

766
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 3: except try to come at the material pure of heart

767
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 3: and open to mind. You know, it's like, these are

768
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:39,400
Speaker 3: stories that are true stories. You can maintain your prejudice

769
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,799
Speaker 3: and bigotry and whatever you think of federal workers. You

770
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 3: know you could if you want to preserve that stereotype

771
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 3: in your head. Fine, but you've got to acknowledge the

772
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 3: truth of the stories, Like, Okay, all federal workers are wasteful.

773
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:56,120
Speaker 3: Where do you put Chris Mark? Then he just he'es

774
00:41:56,160 --> 00:42:01,400
Speaker 3: saving thousands of lives of working classmen based Uh, what

775
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 3: do you do with that? So what do you do

776
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:05,719
Speaker 3: with this and that and the other thing? I mean,

777
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:07,280
Speaker 3: there's so many of these stories.

778
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:08,960
Speaker 2: So on and on.

779
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 3: It, So it's almost I'd say it's I think this

780
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:16,760
Speaker 3: is true that to the extent you succeed in really

781
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 3: threatening either sides prejudices, you're going to elicit a violent reaction.

782
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:27,960
Speaker 3: And so I expected the book, given the current moment

783
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:32,919
Speaker 3: where Elon Muskindoz is trying to basically fire all these people, uh,

784
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 3: that it would elicit a violent reaction. And I've stayed

785
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:39,319
Speaker 3: off social media. I don't know exactly how much of

786
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:43,240
Speaker 3: the violent reaction has happened. Uh, but I've gotten whispers

787
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:46,440
Speaker 3: of it, like and and it's funny. I think it's

788
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 3: funny to find myself. I do live in Berkeley, and

789
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 3: people love to bring that up when they're trying to

790
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:53,880
Speaker 3: classify me. But in Berkeley, i'd be a Republican, you know,

791
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 3: I mean, I mean that's not hard.

792
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:57,839
Speaker 2: But you originally from red I grew.

793
00:42:57,800 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 3: Up in New Orleans. I'm like a kid who I'm

794
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:01,760
Speaker 3: like a kid who played sports and didn't think about

795
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:06,759
Speaker 3: politics and and like voted for Reagan once and like

796
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 3: John McCain was a close friend. And it's like the

797
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 3: idea that I'm like, oh, firmly, this lefty person is insane.

798
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:17,799
Speaker 3: It's just insane. I mean it's and it's it's a

799
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:19,960
Speaker 3: tell for me when people try to shove me into

800
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:23,000
Speaker 3: that box, because it means they're not dealing with the story.

801
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 3: And it happens from the other side, the blind side.

802
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:31,440
Speaker 3: There's the whole the crazy left has taken the blind

803
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:33,840
Speaker 3: side story is like, oh, Michael's like a racist who's

804
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:35,360
Speaker 3: told a white savior story.

805
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 2: Seriously, I've read all about that.

806
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 3: Listen, No, it's amazing.

807
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:40,880
Speaker 2: How many times have you and I just got to

808
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 2: be like our eighth tenth interview, I have lost track

809
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:47,440
Speaker 2: when I'm prepping stuff and I have my research assistant

810
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:49,839
Speaker 2: go out, hey, find me something I haven't we haven't

811
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 2: talked about in these previous eight conversations. Well, you know,

812
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 2: the pushback to the blind Side is the whole story

813
00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 2: is fake and and here's the litigation and he's the depositions,

814
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:05,320
Speaker 2: and I'm like, yeah, I'm sorry, I'm not buying into this.

815
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 2: This is this is clearly someone has a grudge.

816
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, but so but but I mean, the New York

817
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:14,239
Speaker 3: Times ran a cover story like a year. It's like

818
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 3: trying to trying to sort of I don't know exactly

819
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 3: what it was trying to do, but it is between

820
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 3: the lines, was trying to say, like the story. Now,

821
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:25,640
Speaker 3: now looking back on it, we can say the story

822
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:28,719
Speaker 3: was false in some way. No one who was there

823
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 3: at the time disapproved of the stories. When the book

824
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:34,840
Speaker 3: came out, Michael Lor himself loved the book. All everywhere

825
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:37,319
Speaker 3: around him said this like true, great true story. You know,

826
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:40,760
Speaker 3: there was never it's been. It got reinterpreted at High Woke.

827
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 3: It got reinterpreted as a condescending story about a young

828
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:48,120
Speaker 3: black boy, which is not what it was.

829
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:51,640
Speaker 2: You're, by the way, being generous to the people who

830
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 2: have changed. Your friend, Malcolm Gladwell would clearly call it

831
00:44:56,680 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 2: revisionist history, because oh, we gonna We're going to rethink

832
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:04,080
Speaker 2: this in light of current moras.

833
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 3: And but that's all flipped again. So it's it's it's gonna,

834
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:11,520
Speaker 3: it's gonna make it come. It's there's this, there was

835
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:14,360
Speaker 3: a revolution to counter revolution and the counter counter revolution.

836
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 3: It's it's. But my point is that that I have

837
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:23,719
Speaker 3: had my work filtered through people's bizarre, perverted political prisms,

838
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:25,600
Speaker 3: and uh.

839
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:27,759
Speaker 2: It happened last book Going It.

840
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:32,440
Speaker 3: Gets it gets distorted, My views get misrepresented to the

841
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:36,040
Speaker 3: extent I have views that mostly it's not an expression

842
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:38,200
Speaker 3: of you. It's a telling of a story that I'm doing.

843
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:40,759
Speaker 3: And I've had it from both sides, and it's not

844
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 3: pleasant from either side. And this one it was really

845
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 3: clear the side it's where the blow blow back is

846
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:48,399
Speaker 3: gonna come is from the from the right. Now here's

847
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:52,400
Speaker 3: it's funny. I have a little suspicion. I feel like

848
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:55,759
Speaker 3: a little uncomfortable at at preaching to the converted at

849
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:59,800
Speaker 3: cheap applause. I'm now finding myself on stages with this book,

850
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:03,120
Speaker 3: and of course the audience is all kind of on

851
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 3: its side. The audience is all often liberal people, federal workers,

852
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:11,920
Speaker 3: and you know, I have them at hello, and I

853
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:14,359
Speaker 3: don't particularly like that. I mean, it's better than having

854
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:17,120
Speaker 3: if I don't even hate you. But I want people

855
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:19,640
Speaker 3: to just like the story, like judge it by the

856
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:22,880
Speaker 3: quality of the thing, rather than judge it by whether

857
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 3: it confirms your prejudices. Uh. And that that's and it's

858
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:31,680
Speaker 3: just increasingly this is coming that's changed in my my

859
00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:35,800
Speaker 3: literary career, in my life. It's getting harder and harder

860
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 3: to pierce people's prejudices that they're so they come in

861
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:44,400
Speaker 3: so armored with some opinion that's very half baked that

862
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:47,560
Speaker 3: they have possibly even uttered themselves on social media, so

863
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:50,239
Speaker 3: that they've they've sort of like they're anchored in it

864
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:51,759
Speaker 3: and they don't want to they don'tant to even think

865
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:54,759
Speaker 3: about anything different than what they've said. Uh. And so

866
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:57,799
Speaker 3: you're you've got this, You've got an army of kind

867
00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 3: of prejudice readers that you that you have to deal

868
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:04,799
Speaker 3: with it. It's just louder than it's ever been and

869
00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 3: makes it hard to get the story told.

870
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 2: What's really ironic is that a lot of the people

871
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:12,680
Speaker 2: who are the beneficiaries of a lot of the government

872
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 2: work coal mine. Most obvious is they're in red states,

873
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:21,520
Speaker 2: and so there's a little there's a little bit of

874
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:25,640
Speaker 2: craziness with that. But let's talk about the process of

875
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:29,960
Speaker 2: the book. The eight or nine chapters you write, the

876
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 2: first one, you write, the last one, and then the

877
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:38,520
Speaker 2: middle six are the six writers you mention, I don't

878
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:40,680
Speaker 2: really think of you as an editor. I think of

879
00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:43,799
Speaker 2: you as a writer. What was that like, having not

880
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:46,120
Speaker 2: only to edit this but edit friends.

881
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:50,400
Speaker 3: What I did was talk them into doing it. I

882
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:54,000
Speaker 3: recruited them and I talked to them about what stories

883
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 3: that they might write. But after that I left everything

884
00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:58,279
Speaker 3: to David Shipley, who.

885
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 2: Oh sure I know David.

886
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:05,160
Speaker 3: And and who's former Bloomberg editor and so so I

887
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:07,480
Speaker 3: didn't have to do any of the line and I

888
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:12,160
Speaker 3: didn't touch anybody's pieces. I kept I kept great distance

889
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:15,239
Speaker 3: from that, and most of them didn't need that. A

890
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:19,080
Speaker 3: couple couple did I do. I have often engaged with

891
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:21,880
Speaker 3: other writers and having them bounce their stories off me

892
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:23,520
Speaker 3: and talk about how they might do it. Do it

893
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:27,799
Speaker 3: so that that's easy for me and fun. And all

894
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:30,760
Speaker 3: these writers were kind of spoiled for choice. It wasn't

895
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:33,160
Speaker 3: like throwing up their hands and saying, what am I

896
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:34,560
Speaker 3: going to write about? I don't have a story. It

897
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:36,000
Speaker 3: was more should I do A or B or C?

898
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:39,160
Speaker 3: So that that book was fun, really fun. I can't

899
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:41,600
Speaker 3: tell you how easy this thing was. I mean, it's

900
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:44,920
Speaker 3: it's it's it's surprising. I thought when I involved, I

901
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:48,600
Speaker 3: was a little trepidacious about involving other writers because they're

902
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:50,759
Speaker 3: all neurotic, you know that you never know what you know,

903
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 3: it's hurting cats, you never know what they're going to

904
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:56,200
Speaker 3: do or they're going to show or uh. And everybody

905
00:48:56,520 --> 00:48:59,960
Speaker 3: hit their marks and we're kind of Nobody was trub

906
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:02,520
Speaker 3: they were all They all did what they were supposed

907
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:06,120
Speaker 3: to do and and and I did you know? That

908
00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:07,919
Speaker 3: was the other thing, you know, The moment, the gut

909
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:09,920
Speaker 3: check moment for me was I got them all riled up.

910
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:11,839
Speaker 3: Are they going to be these great stories? Go do it?

911
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:14,080
Speaker 3: And then I realized, oh, I got to write something.

912
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:17,880
Speaker 3: And finding my I thought, oh, it's going to be

913
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 3: tough for me to like rise to this occasion again.

914
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:23,600
Speaker 3: And I found I think these are two of the

915
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 3: more interesting long form narrative stories I have ever written.

916
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:31,600
Speaker 2: And they are and that's saying something.

917
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:34,160
Speaker 3: It is saying. I mean, I've had some great material.

918
00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:37,200
Speaker 3: I think the material I'm always good as my material, right,

919
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 3: I can't make I can't put in with God left.

920
00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:40,920
Speaker 2: Out, agreed and disagree.

921
00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:44,520
Speaker 3: Oh it's true, though, It's true. If you I really,

922
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 3: if I have boring, really bad material, it wouldn't be

923
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:49,160
Speaker 3: very good. But this case, the ingredients were there for

924
00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:53,960
Speaker 3: excellent meals and uh, and it just they turned out beautifully.

925
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:55,360
Speaker 3: I'm just really proud of them, you know.

926
00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:58,520
Speaker 2: I love that feeling of like I don't know how

927
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:01,640
Speaker 2: this is gonna when you start, I'm intrigued by this.

928
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:03,879
Speaker 2: I don't know where it's going to go. And then

929
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:06,640
Speaker 2: when you're done, it's like, oh, this turned out like

930
00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:09,279
Speaker 2: I thought this was a good idea, and hey, this

931
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:12,319
Speaker 2: turned out even better than unexpected. It really is a

932
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:13,440
Speaker 2: lovely sensation.

933
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:17,200
Speaker 3: As it is, it is a completely lovely sensation. And

934
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:20,440
Speaker 3: the whole book, when I look back on it, it

935
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:22,799
Speaker 3: feels like the whole group was in a flow state,

936
00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:27,080
Speaker 3: that the whole group, everybody, nobody over nobody ever thought it.

937
00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:29,440
Speaker 3: People just went and did what they did. They played

938
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:34,560
Speaker 3: their best game and I did too, and so it

939
00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:38,480
Speaker 3: was it was really gratifying. And it's had the response

940
00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:40,759
Speaker 3: to it. I mean, of course now with what's going on,

941
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:43,000
Speaker 3: but you know, most of them appeared in the Washington

942
00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:47,080
Speaker 3: Post over running up to the election, and the response

943
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:49,719
Speaker 3: was just I remember the letter after the first one,

944
00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:54,400
Speaker 3: the woman who adds the the comment section said, I've

945
00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:57,319
Speaker 3: never seen anything like this. Really, yes, I mean it

946
00:50:57,360 --> 00:51:01,440
Speaker 3: was just just exploded. And this is all before Trump's elected.

947
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:04,200
Speaker 3: And now the thing's all together in one piece, in

948
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:08,040
Speaker 3: one place in the the you know, there's this deconstruction

949
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:11,480
Speaker 3: of the government going on. It sits in the middle

950
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:15,480
Speaker 3: of the conversation. I mean, it's like it that the

951
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:19,839
Speaker 3: world is smiling upon this work. There's no question, there

952
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:20,720
Speaker 3: is no question.

953
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:24,120
Speaker 2: It could not possibly be more timely. I know I

954
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:26,799
Speaker 2: only have you for a limited amount of time. There's

955
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:31,680
Speaker 2: two questions I have to ask, one sports related and

956
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:34,120
Speaker 2: the obvious question I always feel like I have to

957
00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:38,600
Speaker 2: ask you, is, Hey, what's the cause? You recall the

958
00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:43,400
Speaker 2: dinner with a bunch of people talking about SBF. So

959
00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:47,040
Speaker 2: I got to ask you, what's the next? Michael Lewis

960
00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:50,440
Speaker 2: story that's going to be told? What story haven't you told?

961
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:54,160
Speaker 2: What subject? Haven't you touched that you're eager to attack?

962
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:57,160
Speaker 3: Well, I kind of have a rule, and the rule

963
00:51:57,239 --> 00:51:59,480
Speaker 3: is I don't. I don't really like to talk about it.

964
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:01,799
Speaker 3: I know it takes the energy out of it.

965
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:04,680
Speaker 2: Oh really, that's why I thought you just didn't want

966
00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:05,160
Speaker 2: to reveal.

967
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:08,720
Speaker 3: No. No, it's like you're getting you're sort of getting

968
00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:14,399
Speaker 3: the response before you've done the work, and it's it's

969
00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:16,960
Speaker 3: sort of it's it's nice to build the tension just

970
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:21,600
Speaker 3: in yourself. But having said that, I don't have it's

971
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:24,200
Speaker 3: not I mean, I just finished this and I don't

972
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:26,680
Speaker 3: I don't have a book I'm writing now. I'll tell

973
00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:30,640
Speaker 3: you what things that interests me? Okay, I think what

974
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:35,400
Speaker 3: Elon Musk and Doge is doing is unbelievably interesting, Like

975
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:37,960
Speaker 3: it's it is a tornado ripping through the culture. And

976
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:41,920
Speaker 3: I think that that daily journalism does a really good

977
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:44,400
Speaker 3: job of telling you just what kind of just happened

978
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:47,560
Speaker 3: on the surface. It doesn't go below, and that there

979
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:51,880
Speaker 3: is there's that that's worth paying close attention to. Another

980
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:55,600
Speaker 3: thing that really interests me is the commercialization of youth

981
00:52:55,680 --> 00:53:00,040
Speaker 3: sports of college and college sports especially uh, the the

982
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:03,920
Speaker 3: way this radical free agency has come to college sports

983
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:06,879
Speaker 3: and you've got fifteen year old quarterbacks who have got

984
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:10,200
Speaker 3: two million dollar name, image and likeness deals and that

985
00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:13,600
Speaker 3: that that it's an environment, it's just been upended. And

986
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:16,720
Speaker 3: it interests me on the like who wins, who loses,

987
00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:19,520
Speaker 3: who succeeds, who can coach in this environment, who can

988
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:23,160
Speaker 3: lead in this environment? I'm interesting in college sports and

989
00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:25,040
Speaker 3: a third area and I don't really want to get

990
00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:30,520
Speaker 3: in this too much, but grief. You know, I lost

991
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:33,959
Speaker 3: a child four years ago and I'm starting to find

992
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:38,040
Speaker 3: the words to describe that experience. And I don't think

993
00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:40,799
Speaker 3: it's a book, but I don't know, but these but

994
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:42,680
Speaker 3: I mean, if you were here, Barry, in my office,

995
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:47,480
Speaker 3: I have like, you know, fifty folders here of stuff that's,

996
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:49,640
Speaker 3: you know, at least in the back of my mind

997
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:53,839
Speaker 3: that might lead somewhere. And you never know what's going

998
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:56,160
Speaker 3: to spark it. You never I really never know what's

999
00:53:56,200 --> 00:53:58,600
Speaker 3: gonna It's gonna the call I'm going to get, or

1000
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:01,480
Speaker 3: the person I'm going to meet, or the thing I'm

1001
00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:04,600
Speaker 3: going to read where I think, oh, that's it, that's

1002
00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:07,320
Speaker 3: where I need to go, and it happens very quickly.

1003
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:11,319
Speaker 3: I mean it's like slow, slow, slow, slow slow, and

1004
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:13,680
Speaker 3: then ooh, there we go, and I'm in.

1005
00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:17,120
Speaker 2: The gradually then all at once. You're quoting Hemingway, there

1006
00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:17,440
Speaker 2: we go.

1007
00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:19,879
Speaker 3: That's how it feels. It feels gradually then all at once,

1008
00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:21,879
Speaker 3: and I'm in the gradual phase right now.

1009
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:25,080
Speaker 2: Huh. That's really interesting. I'm going to come back to

1010
00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:27,840
Speaker 2: sports in a minute, but I got to ask. So,

1011
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:31,880
Speaker 2: given all these files, and given how this book was

1012
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:35,960
Speaker 2: so different than prior books, and then Going Infinite was

1013
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:39,400
Speaker 2: so different than Flashboys, and on and on it goes,

1014
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:44,319
Speaker 2: I'm curious about what's your writing routine like and how

1015
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:48,160
Speaker 2: has it evolved over time? Like I am intimately familiar

1016
00:54:48,239 --> 00:54:51,920
Speaker 2: with the Liar's Poker story, which I just love that

1017
00:54:52,040 --> 00:54:55,440
Speaker 2: whole thing. We've talked about that many times. But from

1018
00:54:55,920 --> 00:54:59,000
Speaker 2: kind of writing at night getting home from Salomon Brothers

1019
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:04,080
Speaker 2: to being a full time author, how has your process changed.

1020
00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:07,160
Speaker 3: I had to shift when kids start. When we started

1021
00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:10,520
Speaker 3: having kids, instead of a really late night life, it

1022
00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:14,600
Speaker 3: became a really I became a morning writer. I may

1023
00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:17,840
Speaker 3: go back. Our son, our youngest, is a senior in

1024
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:19,759
Speaker 3: high school and the mini is out of the house.

1025
00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:22,720
Speaker 3: I would not be surprised if I revert to nocturnal beast.

1026
00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:27,560
Speaker 3: It's my that's my natural state. But the process. The

1027
00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:31,160
Speaker 3: one thing I've noticed that's changed in my process is

1028
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:34,560
Speaker 3: a deeper and deeper appreciation of the importance of the

1029
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:39,480
Speaker 3: character of the subjects. That that I the premonition is

1030
00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:41,279
Speaker 3: that it was. It was for me. It was a

1031
00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:44,600
Speaker 3: sort of a breaking it was. It was a marking

1032
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:47,920
Speaker 3: point because I thought, I do want to write about

1033
00:55:48,280 --> 00:55:51,719
Speaker 3: this thing that's happening the COVID, but I want to

1034
00:55:51,719 --> 00:55:53,320
Speaker 3: do it. I want to I want to put the

1035
00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:57,480
Speaker 3: characters first. And I almost cast it that I went looking.

1036
00:55:57,880 --> 00:56:00,000
Speaker 3: I worried about the story less than I worried about

1037
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:02,439
Speaker 3: the people I was writing about. I put the and

1038
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:04,919
Speaker 3: and the same with SBF. It was like, this guy

1039
00:56:05,400 --> 00:56:07,600
Speaker 3: is I don't know what's going to happen, but it's

1040
00:56:07,640 --> 00:56:10,840
Speaker 3: he's interesting. Like there's a thing to do here because

1041
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:13,400
Speaker 3: this person is so interesting, the person will create the story.

1042
00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:18,279
Speaker 3: And I've tilted that direction. I mean there was always there.

1043
00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:18,800
Speaker 2: I was.

1044
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:22,200
Speaker 3: I've always been writing about curious characters. But I've gotten

1045
00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:25,360
Speaker 3: more adamant. I've got to be more certain about the

1046
00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:29,880
Speaker 3: character before I start Moneyball. I started with the idea

1047
00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:32,480
Speaker 3: kind of it was. Uh, it was like how they

1048
00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:34,520
Speaker 3: win a baseball games and oh my god, it's inefficient,

1049
00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:37,440
Speaker 3: Oh my god, analytics blah blah blah. But it doesn't

1050
00:56:37,440 --> 00:56:39,600
Speaker 3: work unless Billy Bean is a really good character. But

1051
00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:41,840
Speaker 3: I didn't. I didn't discover how good a character he

1052
00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:44,360
Speaker 3: was for months. He kept himself hidden for a while.

1053
00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:47,600
Speaker 3: And I think I now have to feel more confident

1054
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:48,920
Speaker 3: in the character before I start.

1055
00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:52,200
Speaker 2: Huh. And and you know, I'm thinking in the top

1056
00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:55,640
Speaker 2: off the top of my head. So you have Billy Bean, right,

1057
00:56:55,880 --> 00:57:02,000
Speaker 2: and then work you like bradcatching on at at I ea, uh,

1058
00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:06,480
Speaker 2: Danny Kahneman, you just keep working your way through each

1059
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:11,240
Speaker 2: of the books, to say nothing of Michael Barry. Every

1060
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:20,080
Speaker 2: book leads to one of these characters leads to this again,

1061
00:57:20,240 --> 00:57:23,800
Speaker 2: this Michael Lewis character who's quirky and thoughtful and discovers

1062
00:57:24,200 --> 00:57:27,800
Speaker 2: a great out of consensus truth and uses it to

1063
00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:32,520
Speaker 2: either affect change or challenge the status quo. I think

1064
00:57:32,680 --> 00:57:37,160
Speaker 2: that shines through this certainly. SBF was that guy hold

1065
00:57:37,160 --> 00:57:39,760
Speaker 2: aside the fraud and the end of money and all

1066
00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:44,280
Speaker 2: that stuff, same sort of character. And what I'm hearing

1067
00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:47,840
Speaker 2: from you is that you've become even though the stories

1068
00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:52,080
Speaker 2: are always fascinating and amazing, they seem to become more

1069
00:57:52,120 --> 00:57:56,000
Speaker 2: and more character driven as you've what's.

1070
00:57:55,880 --> 00:57:59,680
Speaker 3: You It's true, It's true, like your theory of my

1071
00:58:01,200 --> 00:58:03,640
Speaker 3: I don't know how you explained how Liar's Poker fits

1072
00:58:03,640 --> 00:58:05,480
Speaker 3: into it, for example.

1073
00:58:05,240 --> 00:58:07,600
Speaker 2: Freshman Attempt and you're still get by the way. I

1074
00:58:08,520 --> 00:58:12,760
Speaker 2: when you had the anniversary of that book and I

1075
00:58:12,920 --> 00:58:15,400
Speaker 2: literally picked it up having not read it for twenty

1076
00:58:15,440 --> 00:58:19,720
Speaker 2: five years, and I reread it. I'm like, oh, good writer,

1077
00:58:19,840 --> 00:58:24,720
Speaker 2: shows potential. Not quite Michael Lewis yet, but you could

1078
00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:30,360
Speaker 2: see and did you just a compliment? Oh it comes

1079
00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:35,040
Speaker 2: through like, oh, I see exactly how all these little things,

1080
00:58:35,640 --> 00:58:39,040
Speaker 2: like all the seeds of Michael Lewis are planted throughout

1081
00:58:39,080 --> 00:58:43,400
Speaker 2: Liar's Poker, and then it just blossoms in every subsequent book.

1082
00:58:43,680 --> 00:58:47,640
Speaker 2: So the first your first book was like, all right,

1083
00:58:47,720 --> 00:58:49,840
Speaker 2: this is real. Oh he's a first time author. This

1084
00:58:49,920 --> 00:58:52,200
Speaker 2: is a really good book for first time author. But

1085
00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:57,480
Speaker 2: that author wasn't a fully formed Michael Lewis. Nor how

1086
00:58:57,520 --> 00:59:00,120
Speaker 2: old were you thirty something twenty?

1087
00:59:00,440 --> 00:59:01,680
Speaker 3: I wrote it when I was twenty six.

1088
00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:05,000
Speaker 2: Okay, so a twenty six year old Michael Lewis is

1089
00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:08,840
Speaker 2: certainly should never be expected to be a thirty forty

1090
00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:14,160
Speaker 2: fifty sixty something Michael Lewis, seasoned, wizened and just having

1091
00:59:14,240 --> 00:59:16,880
Speaker 2: lived life. So and I say, I want you to

1092
00:59:16,960 --> 00:59:19,080
Speaker 2: understand I'm saying that as I don't.

1093
00:59:19,480 --> 00:59:21,680
Speaker 3: No, I had to reread it when I did the

1094
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:23,280
Speaker 3: audio book, reread it.

1095
00:59:23,320 --> 00:59:25,760
Speaker 2: How bizarre is doing an audio book? By the way,

1096
00:59:25,920 --> 00:59:28,000
Speaker 2: is it not the craziest thing you've ever done?

1097
00:59:28,520 --> 00:59:33,000
Speaker 3: It's it's when I going back to something I wrote

1098
00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:36,880
Speaker 3: thirty something years ago that was weird and it was

1099
00:59:36,960 --> 00:59:38,760
Speaker 3: unselling because I wanted to fix all this.

1100
00:59:38,720 --> 00:59:41,040
Speaker 2: Stuff, you know, right, you want to hit it as.

1101
00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:43,720
Speaker 3: Your yeah yeah things. I didn't even notice at the time.

1102
00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:48,400
Speaker 3: It's just like appalling to me, right, But doing my

1103
00:59:48,440 --> 00:59:53,920
Speaker 3: own audio books, as I mostly do now, it's the

1104
00:59:53,960 --> 00:59:56,960
Speaker 3: one thing I always noticed is how much how you

1105
00:59:57,000 --> 00:59:59,040
Speaker 3: read it differently, how you see it differently. When you're

1106
00:59:59,080 --> 01:00:01,760
Speaker 3: reading it aloud, you see stuff that you wouldn't you

1107
01:00:01,800 --> 01:00:03,920
Speaker 3: don't see when you just read when you're doing it

1108
01:00:03,920 --> 01:00:07,240
Speaker 3: on the page, And that you shouldn't let a book

1109
01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:09,080
Speaker 3: out the door without having read it aloud.

1110
01:00:09,360 --> 01:00:11,400
Speaker 2: I had an editor who used to say to me,

1111
01:00:11,480 --> 01:00:14,200
Speaker 2: you should take your columns and read them out loud,

1112
01:00:14,200 --> 01:00:17,840
Speaker 2: and you'll have a totally different feeling for it. Plus

1113
01:00:17,920 --> 01:00:22,000
Speaker 2: you discover half your vocabulary are things that you have

1114
01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:26,040
Speaker 2: never spoken out loud and don't know how to pronounce

1115
01:00:26,680 --> 01:00:29,000
Speaker 2: because you've only read them and written them.

1116
01:00:29,240 --> 01:00:30,200
Speaker 3: That's right, that's right.

1117
01:00:30,280 --> 01:00:34,040
Speaker 2: Hapittualization. It took me like ten minutes to get that

1118
01:00:34,120 --> 01:00:37,880
Speaker 2: word iterative because I've only read and written them. How

1119
01:00:37,920 --> 01:00:41,600
Speaker 2: often you get to say capitalization and you always mangle

1120
01:00:41,640 --> 01:00:43,920
Speaker 2: it because you're so it's really fine, all right, So

1121
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:46,680
Speaker 2: I only have you for a few moments left. I

1122
01:00:46,720 --> 01:00:50,880
Speaker 2: got to throw you a curveball. Since you've written about baseball,

1123
01:00:50,920 --> 01:00:54,080
Speaker 2: you've written about little league coaching, you've written about football,

1124
01:00:54,200 --> 01:00:57,840
Speaker 2: even you've written about basketball and Darryl Morey, which, by

1125
01:00:57,880 --> 01:01:01,840
Speaker 2: the way, there's a book in basketball. Although maybe it's

1126
01:01:01,840 --> 01:01:05,280
Speaker 2: too late because Steph Curry and Lebron James are already

1127
01:01:06,240 --> 01:01:08,520
Speaker 2: towards the back part of their career. But I have

1128
01:01:08,600 --> 01:01:12,600
Speaker 2: to ask what sports do you watch? What are your teams?

1129
01:01:12,640 --> 01:01:15,720
Speaker 2: Who do you root for? And we're recording this just

1130
01:01:15,760 --> 01:01:20,560
Speaker 2: as March Madness has already destroyed all the brackets.

1131
01:01:20,920 --> 01:01:25,280
Speaker 3: I had Drake. I had Drake over Oh yes, really,

1132
01:01:25,520 --> 01:01:27,720
Speaker 3: yeah I did. I didn't have a knee state, but

1133
01:01:27,720 --> 01:01:29,440
Speaker 3: I came close. I thought about it, and then I

1134
01:01:29,440 --> 01:01:31,600
Speaker 3: thought Clemson is going to bounce from losing the Duke.

1135
01:01:32,120 --> 01:01:35,360
Speaker 3: And I was wrong about that. Uh my bracket looks

1136
01:01:35,400 --> 01:01:39,200
Speaker 3: great except for that. It's right now, it's intact, except

1137
01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:44,320
Speaker 3: for the McNee steak game. I watched college basketball. I

1138
01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:47,920
Speaker 3: watch it more like everybody else during March Madness. I

1139
01:01:48,000 --> 01:01:52,320
Speaker 3: watch playoff baseball. I watched the Cubs. I watched the

1140
01:01:52,840 --> 01:01:56,760
Speaker 3: You're not you Chicago guy. Nope, but Nico Horner. Nico

1141
01:01:56,840 --> 01:01:59,640
Speaker 3: Horner is their second baseman. And Nico was in high

1142
01:01:59,640 --> 01:02:02,720
Speaker 3: school with Quinn, my daughter and Quinn. And when Quinn,

1143
01:02:02,760 --> 01:02:05,080
Speaker 3: Quinn was a pictuer on the softball team and Nico

1144
01:02:05,160 --> 01:02:07,720
Speaker 3: was pitcher on the baseball team, and the off season,

1145
01:02:07,800 --> 01:02:11,959
Speaker 3: Nico and his English teacher father and me and Quinn

1146
01:02:12,000 --> 01:02:14,000
Speaker 3: would be out there, the only ones out there working out.

1147
01:02:14,200 --> 01:02:16,040
Speaker 3: And so I got to Nico a little bit, and

1148
01:02:16,080 --> 01:02:18,880
Speaker 3: he's a He's this unbelievable kid, just a great kid.

1149
01:02:19,080 --> 01:02:22,520
Speaker 3: And so he has led me to become a Cubs fan,

1150
01:02:23,120 --> 01:02:26,000
Speaker 3: and it's actually a fun team. They they they're in

1151
01:02:26,160 --> 01:02:30,280
Speaker 3: field before games. This is something I might they get.

1152
01:02:30,320 --> 01:02:33,280
Speaker 3: They sit in a circle and they pick a different

1153
01:02:33,280 --> 01:02:37,480
Speaker 3: person and everybody has to say something nice about it. Exactly.

1154
01:02:37,920 --> 01:02:41,640
Speaker 3: It's a completely different model of how you like collaborate.

1155
01:02:41,680 --> 01:02:44,880
Speaker 3: But you know, for for guys in sports. But so

1156
01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:48,120
Speaker 3: I watched that. I watch some w n B A

1157
01:02:49,160 --> 01:02:53,360
Speaker 3: I watch the NBA. The Warriors are my team and

1158
01:02:53,600 --> 01:02:57,640
Speaker 3: have been. I mean, we've been so blessed. Kerr is

1159
01:02:57,680 --> 01:03:00,200
Speaker 3: a magician, and I think Curry has been I mean

1160
01:03:00,200 --> 01:03:04,080
Speaker 3: the whole thing has just been magical to watch. And

1161
01:03:04,160 --> 01:03:06,240
Speaker 3: the A's used to be my team, but they've left me.

1162
01:03:08,200 --> 01:03:11,680
Speaker 3: And football I watch obsessively. So football. I watched more

1163
01:03:11,680 --> 01:03:16,160
Speaker 3: college and and NFL football than anything. And my team

1164
01:03:16,360 --> 01:03:19,520
Speaker 3: in the in the NFL is the Saints, which is

1165
01:03:19,640 --> 01:03:23,120
Speaker 3: we've had our ups and downs, but I never you

1166
01:03:23,120 --> 01:03:26,080
Speaker 3: know that New Orleans has never left me and U

1167
01:03:26,760 --> 01:03:32,640
Speaker 3: And in college football, I don't really have I like

1168
01:03:32,640 --> 01:03:34,760
Speaker 3: the old Miss Rebels. I got very attached when Michael

1169
01:03:34,760 --> 01:03:37,520
Speaker 3: Ore was there. I traveled around with that team. But

1170
01:03:37,600 --> 01:03:41,040
Speaker 3: I don't have one team in basketball. The team that

1171
01:03:41,080 --> 01:03:43,960
Speaker 3: I like college basketball I don't know why because I

1172
01:03:43,960 --> 01:03:47,360
Speaker 3: didn't go there. I'm a duke basketball at it. It's

1173
01:03:47,400 --> 01:03:49,280
Speaker 3: like you jump one way or the other. With duke,

1174
01:03:49,360 --> 01:03:50,560
Speaker 3: you either hate him or love them.

1175
01:03:50,760 --> 01:03:53,600
Speaker 2: Well. Their coach was so beloved for so many years.

1176
01:03:53,600 --> 01:03:55,680
Speaker 3: And they new coach will be too. I think Shire

1177
01:03:55,840 --> 01:03:59,360
Speaker 3: is fabulous, So I think it's a different he's He's

1178
01:03:59,400 --> 01:04:03,080
Speaker 3: managing a different environment, but clearly has the ability to

1179
01:04:03,120 --> 01:04:03,400
Speaker 3: do it.

1180
01:04:04,200 --> 01:04:07,880
Speaker 2: Michael, as always, every time we have one of these conversations,

1181
01:04:07,920 --> 01:04:11,720
Speaker 2: they're They're delightful, and I'm going to just announce here

1182
01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:15,200
Speaker 2: anyone who wants to come listen to Michael discussed not

1183
01:04:15,400 --> 01:04:18,720
Speaker 2: just this book, but his whole career April seventh at

1184
01:04:18,720 --> 01:04:22,560
Speaker 2: the Gene Rimsky Theater in Port Washington. It's gonna be

1185
01:04:22,560 --> 01:04:24,960
Speaker 2: a lot of fun. I get to pepper Mike with

1186
01:04:25,080 --> 01:04:28,240
Speaker 2: all sorts of questions that we haven't gotten to here.

1187
01:04:28,960 --> 01:04:31,880
Speaker 2: We have been speaking with Michael Lewis. His new book

1188
01:04:32,000 --> 01:04:35,760
Speaker 2: is Who Is Government? The Untold Story of Public Service.

1189
01:04:36,360 --> 01:04:40,400
Speaker 2: If you enjoy this conversation, well be sure and check

1190
01:04:40,440 --> 01:04:44,840
Speaker 2: out any of the previous five hundred conversations we've had

1191
01:04:45,000 --> 01:04:49,240
Speaker 2: over the past eleven years. You can find those at iTunes, Spotify,

1192
01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:55,120
Speaker 2: Bloomberg dot com, YouTube, wherever you find your favorite podcasts.

1193
01:04:55,360 --> 01:04:57,400
Speaker 2: I would be remiss if I do not thank the

1194
01:04:57,440 --> 01:05:00,720
Speaker 2: Crack team that helps put these conversations together each week.

1195
01:05:01,320 --> 01:05:05,800
Speaker 2: Sarah Livesey is my audio engineer. Anna Luke is my producer.

1196
01:05:06,240 --> 01:05:10,440
Speaker 2: Jean Russo is my researcher. I'm Barry Ritolts. You've been

1197
01:05:10,520 --> 01:05:16,120
Speaker 2: listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio.