Speaker 1: Hi Catherine, Hi Chelsea, how are you. Oh well, I'm
Speaker 1: in Sunny Whistler.
Speaker 2: It's very sunny, sunny, sunny, sunny up here, a little
Speaker 2: too sunny. The snow is melting and it's sticky, sticky snow.
Speaker 2: And I'm officially a daycare runner opener starter. There are
Speaker 2: children everywhere I go. They are at my house, they
Speaker 2: live with me, not just my two buddhas, but more
Speaker 2: children have appeared, and the dogs are attracting more and
Speaker 2: more people. So my life is just turned into Yesterday,
Speaker 2: one of my little friends came by to ask for
Speaker 2: money because she was going to get ice cream and
Speaker 2: realized she didn't have any, so she said, we know
Speaker 2: Chelsea has money.
Speaker 1: That's what she said.
Speaker 2: And I said, okay, how much do you need and
Speaker 2: she said a dollar and all I had was a twenty.
Speaker 3: So I mean, hey, what does ice cream cost these days?
Speaker 1: I know?
Speaker 2: And she's like, do you need the change? And I
Speaker 2: was like, it's really up to you, I guess. And
Speaker 2: Doug is with his new dog walker today. We got
Speaker 2: evicted from his last class because he was getting too confident,
Speaker 2: and apparently Doug is going through adeless and some puberty
Speaker 2: as an eleventh month old chow.
Speaker 1: So he is a fucking nightmare.
Speaker 3: Is there a little marking happening?
Speaker 2: No, not marking, but he just well, I've had my
Speaker 2: rugs cleaned steam cleaned here twice, which smells worse than
Speaker 2: actual diarrhea. So I don't know what the point of
Speaker 2: that is. And then I take he knows his command.
Speaker 2: Yesterday I went for a walk to the golf course,
Speaker 2: which because it was covered in snow. I can only
Speaker 2: see a golf course if it's covered in snow. Otherwise
Speaker 2: it just annoys me so much. And we were so
Speaker 2: good with our commands. Come Come, Come, dog Come, and
Speaker 2: then all of a sudden, he just fucking forgot, and
Speaker 2: so I'm just screaming come, and no one's coming. It's
Speaker 2: so pathetic. And I have my treats and everything. So anyway,
Speaker 2: I have a new dog walker this week. Hopefully she
Speaker 2: can whip him into shape. She's got him Tuesday through Friday,
Speaker 2: I was like, get his ass on track, because I
Speaker 2: have a whole waiting list of people who want Doug.
Speaker 1: I was gone for seven days before last week on.
Speaker 2: The road and do it touring, and then I went
Speaker 2: to the Oscar parties and then I don't know what
Speaker 2: else I did.
Speaker 1: Oh, I went to Deer Valley to ski with my friends.
Speaker 2: There, and I came back and and my friends they
Speaker 2: had passed Doug around like a party treat. And when
Speaker 2: he went from one house to another house like a
Speaker 2: little dime store.
Speaker 3: Whose that's a flusy.
Speaker 2: He is a fluosy, And so it was a Bernice.
Speaker 2: Quite frankly, the kids either want Doug or Bernice. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and now I call them Dirk and Dennis. Those are
Speaker 2: their cameo names or OnlyFans names.
Speaker 3: I guess, well, you're a true mother, just like calling
Speaker 3: them all by the wrong names. That's yeah, that's how Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. So this has been a stressful winter.
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna lie between my fucking house and the
Speaker 2: bullshit that's going on.
Speaker 1: It is a disaster.
Speaker 2: And I just am waiting in Whistler until it calms
Speaker 2: down so I can go home because I have been
Speaker 2: so violated and I feel like I have been robbed.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's past the point of like, oh yeah, just
Speaker 3: a little longer. I mean, when we're going on three years,
Speaker 3: there's something else.
Speaker 2: It's three years. I've owned this house for three years,
Speaker 2: and it's still not ready.
Speaker 3: Yep. Well, I'm glad you have somewhere else to be
Speaker 3: that is beautiful and fun. And I'm glad you got
Speaker 3: to take a break from skiing to go skiing somewhere else.
Speaker 2: Also, I know that was really fun. I love Dear Valley,
Speaker 2: I love skiing there, and I just love skiing. I mean,
Speaker 2: thank god I have skiing in my life. It is
Speaker 2: just such a gift. It is such a gift to
Speaker 2: find out what you're passionate about and get it, get
Speaker 2: after it because it gives me so much joy.
Speaker 3: I love that it is. That is kind of half
Speaker 3: the battle, is finding what you're passionate about, like finding
Speaker 3: what you really really dig you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like if I can just smoke weed. Oh I
Speaker 2: can't smoke it all the time because in my throat.
Speaker 2: But if I could just eat cannabis, mushrooms, whatever drugs
Speaker 2: come my way, read books, and ski for like three
Speaker 2: months straight, I mean, I honestly would be the happiest
Speaker 2: person on the planet.
Speaker 3: Maybe, especially if there were no children involved.
Speaker 1: Well, the children are a nice addition because they're not mine.
Speaker 2: But it's gotten a little good carried away, Like I
Speaker 2: found myself at the kiddie table the other night.
Speaker 1: I'm like, what's happening here? I had a thirteen picture?
Speaker 3: You posed it?
Speaker 2: I know, and everywhere I go they come with me,
Speaker 2: and I treat them like little adults. So I think
Speaker 2: they really like that because I can't explain I'm not
Speaker 2: being nice to them.
Speaker 3: Yeah, what do they call you? Auntie? Chelsea?
Speaker 2: No, they call me cheuse auntie. I'm not there, auntie.
Speaker 2: Even my nieces, Oh, this is funny. I'm taking my
Speaker 2: nieces and nephews to my York. I said only a
Speaker 2: kid's trip for this this summer. I said, only a
Speaker 2: kid's trip, no adults allowed. And so then my brother
Speaker 2: emails me yesterday and was like, uh, you know, Teddy's
Speaker 2: fourteen and he needs an adult to travel with him,
Speaker 2: which means his wife doesn't trust me alone with the
Speaker 2: children and the children's I want to repeat that the children's,
Speaker 2: nor should she. And so he's like, so I have
Speaker 2: to come. I'm like, oh, so you're coming. So then
Speaker 2: my other brother lays like, well, if Glenn's coming, I'm coming,
Speaker 2: and I'm like, this.
Speaker 1: Is exactly the dynamic I was hoping for. No spouses,
Speaker 1: the kids, my brother.
Speaker 3: There you go, then it's a party.
Speaker 1: Now, it's going to be so much fun. Yeah.
Speaker 3: I mean, if you only have people who are underage,
Speaker 3: who's going to take all your drugs this year?
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: I'll have to find some new customers.
Speaker 1: Oh, you know what we need, We need people to
Speaker 1: right in.
Speaker 2: We don't want to cover the same kinds of topics
Speaker 2: each episode, so I guess we want to get into
Speaker 2: different kind of categories of problems or questions that you
Speaker 2: might want help with.
Speaker 3: Yeah, like if you haven't heard it on this show, Like,
Speaker 3: if you haven't heard your question, this is your sign
Speaker 3: to write in.
Speaker 2: All interpersonal affairs are of interest. All interpersonal affairs if
Speaker 2: you're having an affair, if you are having a problem
Speaker 2: with a loved one, a partner. I still think we
Speaker 2: should do a couple's counseling episode. I want couples together
Speaker 2: to come in sure for an issue or overall counseling.
Speaker 2: That would be fun. We're going to do a nice
Speaker 2: counseling session between my three girlfriends who visited us, right
Speaker 2: Amina and Marie and Sydney.
Speaker 3: So we'll get our counseling on. Definitely couples right in.
Speaker 2: And I also think if you have like a problem
Speaker 2: with a friend and you guys want to come on together,
Speaker 2: That's a great, great thing for us to do. If
Speaker 2: there's any you know, if you want to come on
Speaker 2: with your mom I'm or your sister or your brother
Speaker 2: or anything like that and you want to like hash
Speaker 2: out an issue, I think this is a good place
Speaker 2: to do that.
Speaker 3: Yeah. And the more specific the question, the better I
Speaker 3: think too.
Speaker 1: Yes.
Speaker 3: Yeah, right into Dear Chelsea podcast at gmail dot com. Chelsea,
Speaker 3: I do have a couple of updates. Brenna wrote in
Speaker 3: after listening to our episode last year with Katie Couric,
Speaker 3: and she says, Dear Chelsea, I was listening to that
Speaker 3: episode the morning it came out, and I was ready
Speaker 3: for work. As Katie spoke about her cancer diagnosis and
Speaker 3: the importance of checking yourself for lumps, I thought to myself, Hey,
Speaker 3: I haven't felt myself for lumps in a pretty long time.
Speaker 3: While I reached down, and to my horror, I actually
Speaker 3: did feel a lump in my left breast. My heart stopped.
Speaker 3: Within a week of listening to that episode, I had
Speaker 3: gone to the doctor, received an ultrasound on my breast,
Speaker 3: had two mammograms and a biopsy taken. I'm thirty two
Speaker 3: years old. I've never had a mammogram in my life,
Speaker 3: and of course, like forty is kind of when you
Speaker 3: start getting those, so she wouldn't have otherwise gone. I've
Speaker 3: never had a mammogram in my life and no history
Speaker 3: of breast cancer in my family, and I was terrified. Luckily,
Speaker 3: the biopsy came back benine, but it was larger than
Speaker 3: they thought it should be, so in June I went
Speaker 3: back so it could be easily removed. Once it was
Speaker 3: taken out, they were able to test it and confirmed
Speaker 3: that the lump and I were both cancer free and
Speaker 3: I could go back to not having another mammogram until forty.
Speaker 3: I wanted to thank you for raising awareness about this.
Speaker 3: I've known my whole life that I'm supposed to check
Speaker 3: myself regularly, but that is advice I rarely follow. Without
Speaker 3: listening to your episode, who knows when I would have
Speaker 3: actually felt the lump. I also want to thank you
Speaker 3: for giving me that push to start therapy a few
Speaker 3: years ago and for normalizing it. I look forward to
Speaker 3: seeing you on tour this year. Brenna.
Speaker 2: Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful breast. I know I need to do
Speaker 2: more breast self examinations. Also, now that I'm hearing.
Speaker 3: That figure supposed to do it the week after year period,
Speaker 3: I think that's like the key time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I got an ablacion, so I don't know
Speaker 2: when my period. I thought my boobs were getting smaller,
Speaker 2: and I was like liking them.
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, they're a.
Speaker 2: Little bit like purchas souayant, less perky, like a little
Speaker 2: bit like yeah, And I was like, oh, oh, I
Speaker 2: guess I'm you know, forty nine. Maybe they're just kind
Speaker 2: of dropping a little bit.
Speaker 1: But then I.
Speaker 2: Got I don't know what I'm getting my period because
Speaker 2: of that Ablasian And then they blew up. When I
Speaker 2: went to the Oscar parties my dress, my boobs were
Speaker 2: like it was like gargantuan, and I couldn't believe it.
Speaker 2: I was like, oh my god, where did these come from?
Speaker 2: So I must be on my period, but they still
Speaker 2: haven't completely deflated. Yeah, so you're supposed to check a
Speaker 2: week after your period.
Speaker 3: Yes, I believe that's correct.
Speaker 1: So big. I don't even know if I would feel
Speaker 1: a lump.
Speaker 3: I think maybe there's less swelling or whatever, so it's
Speaker 3: easier to find any lumps or bumps.
Speaker 1: Yeah, when they get little.
Speaker 3: Okay, Yeah, I was going to ask your ablasian. You
Speaker 3: went through with that and everything's been fine. Have you
Speaker 3: had less period?
Speaker 2: I've never had a period since I got Yeah, my
Speaker 2: uterus scorched. My sister got it done and then told
Speaker 2: me about it, and I was like, I didn't know
Speaker 2: you could get that, and so so I went right
Speaker 2: away and was like, scorch it.
Speaker 1: Let's go.
Speaker 2: I don't want any more uterine. I guess it gets
Speaker 2: rid of your uterine lining. Yeah. Yeah, so that you
Speaker 2: can't bleed anymore.
Speaker 1: And believe me, I mean it was the best thing.
Speaker 2: I don't get a period, and every once in a
Speaker 2: while I feel my PMS, but not every month.
Speaker 1: It's like every few months.
Speaker 3: That's incredible.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And then you can go and like wear address to
Speaker 3: an Oscar's party and you only have the symptom of
Speaker 3: having big boobs, like no other period symptoms. No.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know.
Speaker 2: Maybe I'm bitchier, but I wouldn't be able to tell
Speaker 2: the difference.
Speaker 3: How were the Oscar parties?
Speaker 2: Oh? Fun, fun. I went to the Vanity Fair party
Speaker 2: and then I went to a Gaio series party, and
Speaker 2: yeah it was good. I was hume By two nothing crazy.
Speaker 2: And then I went to Deer Valley the next morning.
Speaker 3: Oh fantastic, just like an easy pop by.
Speaker 2: Yeah, saw a lot of friends, saw a lot of people.
Speaker 3: It was fun, good, good.
Speaker 2: Our guest today is Happiness Expert, six time best selling
Speaker 2: author and host of the popular Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast.
Speaker 2: Her most recent New York Times bestseller, Life and Five Cents.
Speaker 2: This comes out in paperback April thirtieth. Please welcome to
Speaker 2: the podcast, Gretchen Rubin.
Speaker 4: Hey, Chelsey, I'm so happy to be talking to you.
Speaker 2: Oh, nice to be talking to you. So this book
Speaker 2: was interesting because you discussed the difficulty that you found
Speaker 2: in forming a meditation practice, and I think that's very
Speaker 2: common for many of our listeners. A lot of people
Speaker 2: are struggling with how to meditate.
Speaker 5: The thing that I found about the five senses which
Speaker 5: surprised me, is it's for practically anything you want to
Speaker 5: do to be happier or healthier, or more productive or
Speaker 5: more creative, we can use our five senses. It's like
Speaker 5: the Swiss army knife. If you want to calm down,
Speaker 5: you can use your five senses. If you want to
Speaker 5: pump up, you can use your five senses. If you
Speaker 5: want to connect with the moment, if you want to
Speaker 5: revisit the past, if you want to connect with other people,
Speaker 5: if you want to calm down, if you want to
Speaker 5: be creative, you want to just like you, grind it out.
Speaker 5: All of these things can be done with the five senses.
Speaker 5: So it was just this thing. It was kind of
Speaker 5: a perspective I had never tapped into. And then I
Speaker 5: found all of these great exercises and approaches that were,
Speaker 5: you know, right at the you know, the tip of
Speaker 5: my nose, right at hand.
Speaker 4: I did a huge amount of research.
Speaker 5: I'm just like the kind of person who always runs
Speaker 5: to the library. The only way I can get out
Speaker 5: of my head is sort of throw a book, and
Speaker 5: so so part of the fun of it was finding
Speaker 5: things to try. For instance, heinz Ketchup, like we've all
Speaker 5: had heinz ketch up. And then what I learned is
Speaker 5: heinz ketch up. Probably the reason that is so popular
Speaker 5: and is like the secret ingredient in so many popular
Speaker 5: foods is that it's one of the extremely rare flavors
Speaker 5: that's sweet, sour, bitter, salty, and umami. It's all five
Speaker 5: and one. That is hard to do, and so it's
Speaker 5: just fun to learn something like that and then go
Speaker 5: taste it and then you're like, heinz, ketchup is amazing.
Speaker 4: It's so complex, it's so rich, but who knew.
Speaker 5: So yeah, So part of the fun for me was
Speaker 5: discovering all these aspects of the world that I had
Speaker 5: just I was so stuck up in my head that
Speaker 5: I didn't pay attention to them.
Speaker 2: Okay, I just want to go on the record and
Speaker 2: say that I fucking hate ketchup. So what does that
Speaker 2: say about me? I'm one of the only people I
Speaker 2: know that does not I don't like the smell, I
Speaker 2: don't like the taste, I don't like the texture. I
Speaker 2: don't like any of it.
Speaker 5: Well, then that's that's a good thing to know about yourself.
Speaker 5: And that's another thing that really surprised me about the
Speaker 5: five senses is how we all live in very different
Speaker 5: sensory worlds. Like a lot of people might say, well,
Speaker 5: of course ketchup taste good, or of course ketchup enhances flavor,
Speaker 5: but you're saying that is not my experience.
Speaker 4: I don't like it. Same thing with the textures.
Speaker 5: You know, just I thought that everybody liked sort of
Speaker 5: silky textures. I thought they were sort of almost like
Speaker 5: by definition, a good feeling. But turns out a lot
Speaker 5: of people detest kind of a silky satiny feeling. It
Speaker 5: almost like gives them the creeps. Where do you weigh
Speaker 5: in on the silkiness question?
Speaker 4: Kind of mind?
Speaker 2: I like silky, I like that you like, yeah, that's fine.
Speaker 4: I don't feel about the candy corn. That's another candy corn. Okay.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot of things that I have a
Speaker 2: violet reaction to. I wonder do you not like sweet
Speaker 2: things I like? I like gummy bears and Twizzlers, those
Speaker 2: are my favorite items. And twig spars those are good.
Speaker 4: To Okay, okay, so you do like some sweet.
Speaker 2: Things, but I'm not a normal Yeah, I don't subscribe
Speaker 2: to a lot of things that people find like staples.
Speaker 2: I'm like, I also have an aversion to water. I
Speaker 2: find that to be very boring and unsatisfying. So and
Speaker 2: I really am annoyed that people are constantly trying to
Speaker 2: force me to drink it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so.
Speaker 2: Let's talk about how the senses though, how focusing on
Speaker 2: those and harnessing your relationship with your senses actually is
Speaker 2: an act of mindfulness.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 5: Well, as you said, like I've tried meditating, I've given it, solitarize.
Speaker 4: I even did a silent meditation retreat. Did not work
Speaker 4: for me.
Speaker 5: But the great thing about the sense is is like
Speaker 5: if what you want is to cultivate mindfulness, like that
Speaker 5: is the way we experience the senses, Like you're experiencing
Speaker 5: it right here right now. You can't book market, you
Speaker 5: can't come back to it later.
Speaker 4: It's always going to be new.
Speaker 5: And for a lot of our senses, you can't even
Speaker 5: keep experiencing it over and over. For instance, smell, right,
Speaker 5: even if you love a smell, if you keep sniffing
Speaker 5: and sniffing, it just fades away because that's the way
Speaker 5: you know, smell is a difference detector. So once something
Speaker 5: is not changing, we can't smell it anymore. And so
Speaker 5: turning into your five senses is a great way to
Speaker 5: cultivate mindfulness. And of course there is a kind of
Speaker 5: a mindfulness technique called five four three two one.
Speaker 2: Well, let's talk about five four three two one.
Speaker 5: Well, I don't really meditate, so I don't use it
Speaker 5: a lot of people find it very helpful, Like, there
Speaker 5: are five things that you see, do.
Speaker 4: You do this one? Is this one?
Speaker 6: No?
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 5: I don't know this either, So it's five things you see,
Speaker 5: four things you hear, et cetera.
Speaker 3: So what was it about meditation that was so tricky
Speaker 3: for you?
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean whatever other benefit people were getting, I
Speaker 5: was not getting. And one of the things I've really
Speaker 5: come to believe is that no tool fits every hand,
Speaker 5: and that whenever somebody says this is the best way
Speaker 5: or this is the right way to improve your habits
Speaker 5: or to make yourself happier, it's like, well, maybe that
Speaker 5: works really well for you, and maybe that works really
Speaker 5: well for a lot of people. But if it doesn't
Speaker 5: work for me, let me try something else. And there's
Speaker 5: no need to just sort of persist in something because
Speaker 5: everybody tells you it's the right thing to do if
Speaker 5: it doesn't work for you. So I keep trying it
Speaker 5: because of all these friends who are like, oh, it's
Speaker 5: so you know, you have to try it again. And
Speaker 5: of course people tell me that the very fact that
Speaker 5: I don't benefit from meditation means that I needed all
Speaker 5: the more. But I'm like, there's other things that feel
Speaker 5: more productive and more entasting to me. So let me
Speaker 5: spend my time and energy on those things. But I'll
Speaker 5: probably try it again.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I do think it's so interesting because meditation quote
Speaker 3: unquote wasn't a good fit for you, and yet you
Speaker 3: wound up writing a book about the five senses and
Speaker 3: like achieving my mindfulness kind of that way. And then also,
Speaker 3: gratitude journal wasn't something that you really connected with, and
Speaker 3: yet you have like your happiness journal, the one sentence
Speaker 3: a day is sort of happiness journal, and that for
Speaker 3: me it feels very similar and feels like your gets
Speaker 3: way into those things.
Speaker 4: No exactly, and that's a great point.
Speaker 5: It's that there we can all achieve the same aim,
Speaker 5: but we might find different ways to achieve it. So
Speaker 5: I was deeply annoyed by a gratitude journal, but a
Speaker 5: one sentence journal did the same thing for me, but
Speaker 5: in a way that felt right for me. For all
Speaker 5: of us, there's no one right way to go about
Speaker 5: these things. That's really figuring out what what do I
Speaker 5: want and what's the right way for me? Because if
Speaker 5: you don't like candy corns, candy corns aren't going to
Speaker 5: make you happier, even if somebody else is like the
Speaker 5: highlight of my ears when the candy corns come out,
Speaker 5: you know, it's like, Okay, well people are different.
Speaker 2: So can you talk a little about what you did
Speaker 2: discover works for you with regard to your five senses?
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, so many things.
Speaker 5: One thing that I did was that I started I
Speaker 5: was going to do it for a year and I've
Speaker 5: done it ever since. Butch As, I go to the
Speaker 5: Metropolitan Museum every day. I'm so fortunate I live within
Speaker 5: walking distance of the met and I go every every
Speaker 5: single day.
Speaker 4: I'm very interested in sort of repetition.
Speaker 5: I think a lot of people wouldn't like to do
Speaker 5: the same thing over and over, but I love it.
Speaker 4: So that's a big thing that I did.
Speaker 5: Another thing that I did, and Chelsea, I'll ask you this,
Speaker 5: when you really need to focus, what sound environment works
Speaker 5: for you? Silence, music with words, music without words, same
Speaker 5: song over and over for eight hours. It's cacophony like
Speaker 5: a train station or busy coffee shop, like busy home.
Speaker 4: What works for you when you really want to focus?
Speaker 2: I would say I err on the side of complete silence,
Speaker 2: but I am also able to focus, and this is
Speaker 2: because of the hours of like I've put into meditation,
Speaker 2: I've definitely noticed a major uptick in my ability to
Speaker 2: focus within chaos. So if I am at a coffee
Speaker 2: shop or if I am on a plane, I can
Speaker 2: also harness the same kind of focus. My desire is
Speaker 2: to have quiet, but if there's music on or if
Speaker 2: there's talking, I can also go in and just and
Speaker 2: just focus. So that's not something that I was able
Speaker 2: to do for a very long time. I was very
Speaker 2: easily distracted. Now the distractions are more you know, your phone,
Speaker 2: social media. You know, you hear a thing on your phone,
Speaker 2: You're like, oh, let me go. So I've just I've
Speaker 2: picked up habits where I leave my phone, you know,
Speaker 2: in a place where I'm not going to access it.
Speaker 2: You yes, and but yes, I have been able. I'm
Speaker 2: able to harness my focus in most environments. Yes, but
Speaker 2: I would prefer silence, yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and the same way.
Speaker 5: Well, speaking of smartphone, like, one of the things I
Speaker 5: looked at is how can I use my five senses
Speaker 5: to help me disengage with my phone when I want to.
Speaker 5: So one of the things you mentioned, the classic, which
Speaker 5: is just put it somewhere out of the way so
Speaker 5: you can't get your hands on it.
Speaker 4: That works.
Speaker 5: Another one is to turn off notifications because they're so distracting.
Speaker 5: My phone is on silent all the time and so
Speaker 5: and I don't understand how people can deal with just
Speaker 5: like these random beeps. I find it immensely distracting. And
Speaker 5: here's another thing that a lot of people don't know about,
Speaker 5: which is you can turn your phone to grayscale, so
Speaker 5: that it's only in black, white, and gray. It's like
Speaker 5: your grandparents' TV set instead of in full rich color.
Speaker 5: And it's much harder to use your phone. It's like,
Speaker 5: actually more difficult to use it. And of course it's
Speaker 5: much less interesting when like all the photographs are in
Speaker 5: black and white and all the beautiful colors are gone,
Speaker 5: and then your phone isn't engaging in your senses the
Speaker 5: way it's trying to do. It's of course, it's cleverly
Speaker 5: engine by the most brilliant people to try to hook
Speaker 5: you in every second, so we can use.
Speaker 4: Our senses to foil that as well.
Speaker 2: Okay, so how do you use your five senses to
Speaker 2: ground yourself more in the present moment?
Speaker 5: Well, of course, the five senses are just a great
Speaker 5: way to be present in the moment because we have
Speaker 5: to think about like what am I seeing, what am
Speaker 5: I hearing? What am I smelling? And one of the
Speaker 5: things I found is that a lot of us have
Speaker 5: a neglected sense, like there's there are certain senses that
Speaker 5: we really we really appreciate, and so we're wanting to
Speaker 5: have adventures with that sense. We turn to it for
Speaker 5: comfort and pleasure, We use it to engage with other people,
Speaker 5: we want to learn about it, we want to you know,
Speaker 5: we're really appreciating it. But then there are the neglected
Speaker 5: senses where there are ones where we aren't using it
Speaker 5: for mindfulness and we aren't paying attention to it. Maybe
Speaker 5: we're only paying attention to it when we're annoyed or
Speaker 5: irritated or we want to avoid the downside of it.
Speaker 5: And so it's great to know you're a neglected sense
Speaker 5: because that's where we have a lot of low hanging
Speaker 5: through That's that's something that you can turn into and say, well,
Speaker 5: how could I have adventures or how could I connect
Speaker 5: with other people, or how could I get more comfort
Speaker 5: and pleasure out of it? So I actually created a
Speaker 5: quiz where you can you know on my website where
Speaker 5: you can find out what is your neglected sense and
Speaker 5: then from that figure.
Speaker 4: Out how you could tap into it to be happier.
Speaker 2: And what about people who are struggling to maintain a
Speaker 2: level of happiness or constantly thinking about like the next
Speaker 2: negative thing that could happen, like they can't sit comfortably
Speaker 2: in their happiness.
Speaker 5: Yeah, there's a very persistent belief that if we rehearse
Speaker 5: disaster or unhappiness will somehow offset it. So I think
Speaker 5: for some people there's only almost like a feeling of
Speaker 5: magic that if I think about it a lot, somehow
Speaker 5: it won't happen, which, of course that doesn't work like that,
Speaker 5: And so I think for people who face that challenge,
Speaker 5: it can be very helpful to say, Okay, well let
Speaker 5: me just take a breath, let me just look around,
Speaker 5: really look at the sky, really hear what I'm hearing,
Speaker 5: really smell. I live in New York Cities, so it's
Speaker 5: very smelly. And I finally just like walking down the
Speaker 5: street and like, what actually am I smelling? Like maybe
Speaker 5: I'm walking by a hair salun so I'm smelling that
Speaker 5: hair salon smell, or I'm walking by a hardware store.
Speaker 5: The hardware store smell is one of my very favorite
Speaker 5: smells in the world, and so just taking a moment
Speaker 5: to dial into your body like that a lot of
Speaker 5: times can help people manage that anxiety about you know,
Speaker 5: what's going to unfold in the future.
Speaker 3: Going back to what you said about going to the
Speaker 3: mat every day, you talk a little bit about the
Speaker 3: difference between something that you're experiencing with a lot of
Speaker 3: repetition and sort of noticing the nuance when you see
Speaker 3: the same thing all the time. Can you talk a
Speaker 3: little bit about what you learned about repetition versus novelty
Speaker 3: and how it affects different people.
Speaker 4: This is fascinating.
Speaker 5: What the research shows is that people who do novel
Speaker 5: things tend to be happier, even things as kind of
Speaker 5: elemental as going to a new restaurant for dinner, going
Speaker 5: to a different neighborhood.
Speaker 4: So there's definitely a huge role for novelty and happiness.
Speaker 5: But I also think that you can't overlook the pleasures
Speaker 5: of repetition, and I think people are really different. I
Speaker 5: think some people really love repetition and familiarity and other
Speaker 5: people are There's sort of like, if you could do
Speaker 5: anything every day, why would you waste it going to
Speaker 5: the same place over and over.
Speaker 4: It seems like a wasted opportunity.
Speaker 5: But I've always been really fascinated by how things change
Speaker 5: very gradually over time and doing something over and over.
Speaker 5: And I assume that I was very idiosyncratic about that,
Speaker 5: But ever since the book came out, I've heard from
Speaker 5: a ton of people where they do exactly the same
Speaker 5: walk with their dog every day and they enjoy seeing
Speaker 5: like how this one tree changes over time, or they'll
Speaker 5: go to a river and take a picture at sunset
Speaker 5: every night, and like they like doing it over and
Speaker 5: over and over again. So I think it is something
Speaker 5: where people are different. But what I found is things
Speaker 5: change much more.
Speaker 4: Than I thought.
Speaker 5: Like I went into it thinking like, oh, you know,
Speaker 5: this is basically going to be the same every day,
Speaker 5: but there's so much change, like when you are able
Speaker 5: to appreciate the subtleties. And I just think that doing
Speaker 5: something over and over and over, and especially something like
Speaker 5: a big experience visiting a museum a lot of times.
Speaker 5: I don't know about you, but you have this feeling like, well,
Speaker 5: I have to make the most of my time, right,
Speaker 5: I have to prioritize I have to be efficient. It's like,
Speaker 5: if you're doing something every day, it's like you don't
Speaker 5: have to be efficient, you get all do You could
Speaker 5: just waste time, it doesn't. No day matters. So for
Speaker 5: me it was and it was just this chance to
Speaker 5: just completely get out of my head and into this
Speaker 5: beautiful space.
Speaker 4: And so I just never stopped because I love doing
Speaker 4: it so much.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I also wonder you know, you have talked
Speaker 3: about how focusing on your senses has helped you change
Speaker 3: your relationship to yourself, but I wonder if it affected
Speaker 3: your relationships with your kids, your husband, your friends, your
Speaker 3: interpersonal relationships.
Speaker 5: No, one hundred percent. And it's a great way to
Speaker 5: connect with other people. Now, of course we know this
Speaker 5: from like what is the classic thing. It's like you
Speaker 5: go out to dinner with your friends, and that's a
Speaker 5: great way to connect through a sensory experience. But you
Speaker 5: can do a lot of things like I went to
Speaker 5: a sound bath with a friend. I had a flavor
Speaker 5: party where I had all my friends come over and
Speaker 5: then we did well. One of the things we did
Speaker 5: was we tasted ketchup, which would not have been maybe
Speaker 5: not everybody would have enjoyed it as much as I did,
Speaker 5: and we did taste comparisons, like three different potato chips
Speaker 5: and three you.
Speaker 2: Know what it's called when you hate the smell, taste, texture,
Speaker 2: like reject ketchup. Yes, okay, it's not like one sense
Speaker 2: like I don't like the taste.
Speaker 1: It's all encompassing.
Speaker 4: Do you like the color? I think it's a nice color.
Speaker 2: No, because I know what that color comes with.
Speaker 5: Okay, okay, okay, okay, you know you know what you
Speaker 5: don't want? What about ketchup based things like meat loaf,
Speaker 5: things that have a lot of ketchup?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I can.
Speaker 2: Have those, but again, not my face, not my.
Speaker 4: Face, not your favorite, yea, not your favorite.
Speaker 5: But I mean even that is fun at the taste
Speaker 5: party where you find out like, oh okay, this friend
Speaker 5: of mine that I've had for years hates ketchup and
Speaker 5: I never knew that. Or we were all reminiscing about
Speaker 5: the candy that we ate as kids, and it was like,
Speaker 5: but there were all these really regional differences in what
Speaker 5: kinds of candies like we wanted as children, And it's
Speaker 5: really dining in the dark work with my family.
Speaker 4: So we went where they liked you. Oh I went there.
Speaker 5: Yeah, Yeah, interesting, right, Like it's sort of a memorable
Speaker 5: adventure to go on. So it is a great way
Speaker 5: to connect with other people and you can think about, Yeah,
Speaker 5: we could go for hike outside, we could go to dinner,
Speaker 5: but maybe we want to do something that's more different,
Speaker 5: that's going to tap into our senses in a different way.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: My friend and I went, and I wrote about this
Speaker 2: in one of my books. We went to a restaurant
Speaker 2: actually called Dining in the Dark don la Noir. It
Speaker 2: was called in London, and you eat in the dark
Speaker 2: and you order in the dark, and you're it's supposed
Speaker 2: to heighten your experience and the taste and all of
Speaker 2: those things.
Speaker 5: Well, okay, when I did it, everybody clearly was very
Speaker 5: suspicious that we were going to be fed something that
Speaker 5: we wouldn't otherwise eat, and so I think everybody was
Speaker 5: very apprehensive. I think I might have enjoyed it more
Speaker 5: if i'd kind of known what I was getting into.
Speaker 4: What was your experience? What did you think about that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wasn't that impressed with the food. It was
Speaker 2: more of like a it was more of a heightened
Speaker 2: sense of not being able to see where you are,
Speaker 2: what you're eating, who you're with, who's looking at you?
Speaker 5: No, I kept reaching out to touch my other family
Speaker 5: members because I didn't feel oriented toward them.
Speaker 2: Right, Yes, it's very disorienting.
Speaker 5: So it's interesting, it's very but again it's like it's
Speaker 5: very memorable. It's so different from what we would usually
Speaker 5: experience that, like, you know, for both of us, these
Speaker 5: experience happened years ago, and we have a clear I
Speaker 5: mean I certainly have a clearer memory of that than
Speaker 5: a thousand other dinners that I went to.
Speaker 4: With my family.
Speaker 5: So yeah, so doing again it's something novel, so that
Speaker 5: makes it more interesting, and it's dialing into our senses.
Speaker 4: In a way that's really fun.
Speaker 5: And also the thing about the census is every you know,
Speaker 5: you can do it so that everybody experiences it together.
Speaker 4: They all have their opinion.
Speaker 5: So someone was telling me that at a big family
Speaker 5: like you know, Thanksgiving or Christmas or whatever, they would
Speaker 5: buy you know, this bizarre ice cream flavors. You're like,
Speaker 5: who wants rosemary in time ice cream? Like you're you're intrigued,
Speaker 5: but like who wants to like two more things?
Speaker 2: I can't stand roastberry and time.
Speaker 5: So right, so they would get all the bizarre, the
Speaker 5: cream corn, all the strains, ice cream flavors, and then
Speaker 5: they would pass it around and everybody would have a
Speaker 5: spoonful or two, and then they would talk about what
Speaker 5: they liked or didn't like it, and it was just like
Speaker 5: a three year old can talk about it, a ninety
Speaker 5: three year old can talk about it.
Speaker 4: Everybody's sharing this experience. It's kind of fun.
Speaker 5: It's playful, and it's a way to bring people together
Speaker 5: through a sensory experience in a way that's unconventional but
Speaker 5: really fun.
Speaker 2: Great, Okay, we're going to take a break and we're
Speaker 2: going to be right back to take some callers, and
Speaker 2: we're back.
Speaker 3: We are back, Sarah, Right, you're Chelsea. My husband and
Speaker 3: I have spent the last three years learning about life
Speaker 3: outside of Mormonism. It's scary and amazing and freeing. My
Speaker 3: husband is preparing to go on a psilocybin journey to
Speaker 3: learn more about himself and a spirituality. I'm truly excited
Speaker 3: for him, and while I don't personally feel called to
Speaker 3: sit with psychedelics, I want to honor him and his journey.
Speaker 3: So my question for you is this, how can I
Speaker 3: show my support and help him prepare for his journey,
Speaker 3: and how can I get past my own concerns and
Speaker 3: fully embrace whatever may come for him and for us, Sarah, I.
Speaker 5: Would say, ask him, ask him how he wants to
Speaker 5: be supported. It's it sounds like she's not going to
Speaker 5: do it herself, So what would he what would he
Speaker 5: want to be supported?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think, you know, opening a dialogue and
Speaker 2: keeping that dialogue open about fears or misgivings or things
Speaker 2: that he's looking forward to, or you know, any sort
Speaker 2: of I don't know, maybe some negative feelings that he
Speaker 2: has attached to it. I would just try to diminish
Speaker 2: those as best I could as a partner, as a
Speaker 2: loving partner in support of him that this is going
Speaker 2: to be a positive experience. I think the most important
Speaker 2: thing you can do when you go into these experiences
Speaker 2: is to be open and to be ready for whatever,
Speaker 2: and also to have the confidence and the feeling that
Speaker 2: it's going to be a great experience, like not to
Speaker 2: go in scared and not to go in with any
Speaker 2: sort of kind of negativity around it. So I think
Speaker 2: learning as much as you can about what he's working
Speaker 2: on is going to be a helpful tool to balance
Speaker 2: him and show him like a support and that's pretty
Speaker 2: much all you can do, you know. I don't think
Speaker 2: you should be labor it to the point where it's
Speaker 2: you know, annoying and like, Okay, I need you to
Speaker 2: talk about everything. Like as much as he's comfortable, I
Speaker 2: think you make yourself, You make your presence known.
Speaker 4: I'm here.
Speaker 2: I want to be here with you and for you,
Speaker 2: and however that takes shape. Let me know what you're
Speaker 2: comfortable with and let him guide.
Speaker 5: You and stay curious, as you say, like, be interested
Speaker 5: and listen about whatever it is that he's discovering.
Speaker 2: I think the biggest gift we can give anyone going
Speaker 2: through anything that is different is to listen. Right, We
Speaker 2: can listen and listen and listen, and people will usually
Speaker 2: figure everything out. If they're honest with themselves and they're
Speaker 2: in a place of learning, they are able to talk
Speaker 2: through most things, you know. And so anything that can
Speaker 2: spark a conversation or can ignite a conversation that you
Speaker 2: may have not had yet, you know, is always good
Speaker 2: to go into new territories and to talk about things
Speaker 2: that haven't been unearthed yet, because I think when he
Speaker 2: comes out of it, there can also be a feeling
Speaker 2: of like separateness when somebody goes on a journey and
Speaker 2: they come back, because it's kind of ineffable. You can't
Speaker 2: even describe what happened to you to the to the
Speaker 2: next person. And I would say to always try to
Speaker 2: bridge that gap, like it doesn't matter that you didn't
Speaker 2: experience it, You're there to enjoy his experience. I would
Speaker 2: always just move closer to the person who's going through
Speaker 2: something to make sure that your presence is felt, your
Speaker 2: presence is known, and they know you're right next to them.
Speaker 5: It sounded from her question like maybe she's feeling a
Speaker 5: little bit of apprehension about it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it did sound like that.
Speaker 5: What you're saying is don't like sort of don't communicate
Speaker 5: that to him, because he'll have a better experience if
Speaker 5: he's not picking up on your concerns. So maybe it's
Speaker 5: like confide that to someone else because.
Speaker 2: It's also not about you, really, it's about him, So
Speaker 2: make it about him.
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, you both and tell say correct me if
Speaker 3: I'm wrong. But when you first tried Iohwaska, it was
Speaker 3: sort of like you didn't really feel much, Is that right?
Speaker 3: I think you both had sort of like not an experience.
Speaker 3: Obviously psilocybin's different, but not the experience you expected to
Speaker 3: have when you tried it, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think I was pulled out of
Speaker 2: mind because in my friend's reactions to their own experiences.
Speaker 2: I was with two friends, so that kind of that
Speaker 2: kind of pulled me away. But when I was alone, yes,
Speaker 2: I was able to feel it. What about you, Gretchen, Yeah, I.
Speaker 5: Didn't really have much of an experience either. I threw
Speaker 5: up three times. I was like, well did I just
Speaker 5: sort of clear it? But I was also in a
Speaker 5: place that was intense. It's interesting that you said that
Speaker 5: you were sort of pulled pulled out of it by
Speaker 5: a friend because where I was was intensely, intensely cold,
Speaker 5: and I almost wonder if my body was like you
Speaker 5: know what, you can't you can't disengage.
Speaker 4: You have to stay in your body because it's just
Speaker 4: so cold.
Speaker 5: So it is interesting, like this may be some part
Speaker 5: of you like stays in the moment and has to
Speaker 5: decide like can I actually go this route or do
Speaker 5: I need to stay where I am? That's interesting, but
Speaker 5: for whatever reason, it sort of didn't take with me.
Speaker 2: Oh interesting, And you didn't repeat the experience.
Speaker 5: Well, see, I'm I am a real square. I mean,
Speaker 5: this is so out of my comfort zone. This is
Speaker 5: I'm still astonished that I did it and I worked
Speaker 5: up so hard to do it. Then I'm like, I
Speaker 5: did it, and I can't I sort of can't get
Speaker 5: myself back to that place that I had to work
Speaker 5: really hard to get to. So I'm really sort of
Speaker 5: sad that I didn't kind of have a bigger experience
Speaker 5: because I really wanted to have a big experience, But
Speaker 5: I don't feel like I have the emotional wherewithal to
Speaker 5: do it again, you know, right?
Speaker 2: Copy that?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Well, our next question comes from Kaylan Klin. Says,
Speaker 3: Dear Chelsea, Recently, my best friend introduced me to your podcast,
Speaker 3: and it's helped me reframe so many things in my life.
Speaker 3: The help you give is so meaningful, and not just
Speaker 3: to the person you're helping, but all your listeners. My
Speaker 3: problem is this, I've been doing the same thing my
Speaker 3: entire life. I'm twenty eight, but I feel like I
Speaker 3: haven't lived at all. I live in a small town.
Speaker 3: I met a man seventeen years my senior, right out
Speaker 3: of high school and married him. We've been married five
Speaker 3: years now and are happy, but maybe a little bored.
Speaker 3: I've also worked at the same place since I was fifteen,
Speaker 3: working my way up to a general management position out
Speaker 3: a franchise. I don't have a degree, so it feels
Speaker 3: like without going back to school, this is my best
Speaker 3: bet for income. Within the last year, my husband and
Speaker 3: I were close to buying a house and it fell through,
Speaker 3: and so we decided not to do that but instead
Speaker 3: focus on things that bring us joy. I think maybe
Speaker 3: it was a sign that I don't belong in this
Speaker 3: small town for the long term. My problem now is now,
Speaker 3: what where can I tweak my life to find passion?
Speaker 3: Do I focus on trying to find a fire in
Speaker 3: my marriage again? Do I reevaluate my career? I feel stuck,
Speaker 3: as though life is passing me by and I'm walking
Speaker 3: blindly through life. And I don't want to feel this way.
Speaker 3: In my thirties, I feel like I meant for so
Speaker 3: much more.
Speaker 7: Okay, hik hihikay hi.
Speaker 2: This is our guest, Gretchen Rubin.
Speaker 5: Hi.
Speaker 2: Okay, So, okay, how long are you stuck in this
Speaker 2: town for?
Speaker 5: Do we know?
Speaker 6: Well?
Speaker 7: So he has children from a previous marriage, so when
Speaker 7: they finished school, he wants to keep.
Speaker 2: Them in the school district, and when will that be?
Speaker 3: Six years?
Speaker 2: Okay, so you're debating or deliberating between infusing some sort
Speaker 2: of fun and liveliness into your marriage or into your
Speaker 2: personal life.
Speaker 7: So I feel like when I wrote in after we
Speaker 7: decided not to buy a house and that was really disappointing.
Speaker 7: And I feel like we were kind of butting heads
Speaker 7: because we had to buy a house in the school
Speaker 7: district and I the options were so limited, and I
Speaker 7: feel like over the last couple of months things haven't
Speaker 7: necessarily gotten better. And I was on Instagram just scrawling
Speaker 7: and obviously there's the big age difference between him and I,
Speaker 7: and there was a post of a girl and it
Speaker 7: said like, if you're a man twice my age and
Speaker 7: think I'm cute, comment and he fucking commented on it.
Speaker 3: Sorry, excuse me language.
Speaker 2: That's okay, that's okay, that's the least of our worries.
Speaker 4: What did he comment?
Speaker 7: Just high and then like a fire emoji. Oh it's
Speaker 7: so gross. It's just gross.
Speaker 5: Ugh.
Speaker 2: So are you thinking about leaving your marriage or are you?
Speaker 4: What do you?
Speaker 7: I don't want to, but that whole situation has me
Speaker 7: like I was trying to convince myself that six years
Speaker 7: is worth it and then we can live this dream.
Speaker 7: And now I'm like, I feel so disgusted, almost like
Speaker 7: I was a fetish M yeah, I hear you.
Speaker 5: Wow, I had a completely different suggestion, but this takes
Speaker 5: hibited a new direction.
Speaker 4: But maybe to pull back.
Speaker 5: Aside from that, I think it's great that you're sort
Speaker 5: of admitting to yourself that you're feeling restless generally, like
Speaker 5: maybe in your marriage, maybe just generally, maybe in your work,
Speaker 5: where you live. And one thing that is helpful to
Speaker 5: think about. It's a painful thing to think about, but
Speaker 5: can be helpful is whom do you envy when you
Speaker 5: look around of the people that you know are like
Speaker 5: the fates that you can think of. Is it people
Speaker 5: who live in a bigger city. Is it people who
Speaker 5: have a more interesting career? Is it people who have
Speaker 5: a different kind of marriage? Like, sometimes when we think
Speaker 5: about whom we envy, it makes it clear about what
Speaker 5: we want, because at least for your initial question, it
Speaker 5: sounds like like you weren't sure even what you wanted
Speaker 5: or like what area was causing this feeling of restlessness.
Speaker 5: And sometimes what happens is people change what's easy to
Speaker 5: change or what's obvious, rather than the thing that would
Speaker 5: kind of more deeply satisfy them, because it's it's so
Speaker 5: hard to know ourselves, and sometimes it's hard to face
Speaker 5: things that are scary or intimidating or upsetting. But now
Speaker 5: this latest wrinkle seems to have cast the whole thing
Speaker 5: in a new light. But is that in fact revealing
Speaker 5: or is that new information right?
Speaker 7: I feel like when my best friend Harry, when he
Speaker 7: put me onto this podcast, I like binge to listen
Speaker 7: to it, and I feel like I wanted to start
Speaker 7: making changes just based off of everything that's talked about
Speaker 7: just on the podcast alone and Chelsea being like the
Speaker 7: kind of woman that she is and like independent and strong,
Speaker 7: and I felt like I was wasting my time just
Speaker 7: going through the motions, and I think people pleasing and
Speaker 7: wanting to just make sure that everything else was good.
Speaker 7: And I feel like with work, like I fought for
Speaker 7: a raise so that made me feel better at work,
Speaker 7: and I wanted to put effort into obviously my relationship
Speaker 7: and my marriage. And then literally last night this happened
Speaker 7: and I haven't really seen him, so I decided to
Speaker 7: stay at my mom's. But yeah, I don't know. I
Speaker 7: feel like it's the independence part of it. Having basically
Speaker 7: never been single.
Speaker 3: I wonder if there are some ways that you can
Speaker 3: inject some independence in a small way into your life.
Speaker 3: Like obviously, like you're having this issue with your husband
Speaker 3: right now, and I think that's like worth, you know,
Speaker 3: go have a couple sessions with a therapist and talk
Speaker 3: through that. But you do seem fairly happy in your marriage.
Speaker 3: And maybe it's like you start taking weekend trips by yourself,
Speaker 3: and it doesn't have to be like, you know, you're
Speaker 3: going to Timbuktu. You can just go, like go to
Speaker 3: another state, like visit some restaurants. Maybe it's even just
Speaker 3: like I'm going to take it a Friday night and
Speaker 3: I'm going to go have a date with myself whatever
Speaker 3: that means for you, go have dinner by yourself, see
Speaker 3: a movie, you know whatever. You kind of really love
Speaker 3: to take a drive, even, you know, visit a museum
Speaker 3: or a park that you've never been to, take a
Speaker 3: hike before you or here we talked a lot about
Speaker 3: novelty and experiencing new things, and there may be some
Speaker 3: really simple ways that you can inject novelty into your
Speaker 3: life that are ways to help you grow as a person,
Speaker 3: which I think can only help your marriage grow as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think something to bring up in therapy
Speaker 2: is that something that you can do bring him to
Speaker 2: therapy with you.
Speaker 3: I could try.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you should, because you're sacrificing a lot
Speaker 2: for this marriage and for his situation. So it's a
Speaker 2: matter of a respect and boundaries and parameters that you
Speaker 2: feel comfortable with that he has to agree to. You've
Speaker 2: uprooted yourself to be in this life and to be
Speaker 2: in this marriage and to be beholden kind of to
Speaker 2: whatever his desires and whims are and his children. So
Speaker 2: I think you a deserve more from your marriage, and
Speaker 2: I agree with everything else about your personal life and
Speaker 2: actually investigating ways that you can make yourself happier within
Speaker 2: the marriage that you're in, and then through that work,
Speaker 2: taking weekends to your doing some stuff at night that
Speaker 2: doesn't involve him, you know, joining whatever it is, a
Speaker 2: book club or a wine club or whatever you're interested in,
Speaker 2: just to kind of like cultivate new friendships. I think
Speaker 2: if you can do that, you're going to find out
Speaker 2: more of what you want and what makes you happy,
Speaker 2: rather than just kind of signing up to this already
Speaker 2: existing situation that you've that you're in, which is totally workable.
Speaker 2: You know, it's not like you need to walk out
Speaker 2: the door and leave all your shit, but you need
Speaker 2: to pay more attention to yourself and probably less attention
Speaker 2: to everyone else's needs for a while, and invest a
Speaker 2: little bit in yourself to trying to figure out is
Speaker 2: this really what makes you happy? Is this dynamic going
Speaker 2: to make you happy? You know, you said you feel
Speaker 2: like a fetish, that's not a feeling that's just going
Speaker 2: to disappear, And his behavior has an impact on that
Speaker 2: as well. So I think all of this stuff is important.
Speaker 5: One thing I would add is another way to think
Speaker 5: about that is identify the problem instead of just sort
Speaker 5: of a vague sense of restlessness and uneasiness, Like what
Speaker 5: is the problem? Like maybe, as Catherine said, you don't
Speaker 5: feel independent, so what would you do to increase your
Speaker 5: sense of dependence? Or as Chelsea was saying, maybe you
Speaker 5: feel like you don't have a lot of strong relationships,
Speaker 5: so there are things you could do where you could
Speaker 5: join or start a group. Then that would give you
Speaker 5: more relationships. Maybe you want to invest more in your career.
Speaker 5: So it's like, Okay, I want to make, you know,
Speaker 5: strides in my career, so I'm going to get some
Speaker 5: certain kinds of training. Maybe it's really comes down to
Speaker 5: my marriage. So marriage therapy is really the thing that
Speaker 5: I need to focus on, because sometimes we have like
Speaker 5: a general sense of like, oh, I feel so burned out,
Speaker 5: or I feel so unhappy, or I feel like, you know,
Speaker 5: I feel stale, or I feel stuck.
Speaker 4: It's like that's it's hard to act on that because
Speaker 4: it's vague.
Speaker 5: But when you're really like, well, what exactly is the problem?
Speaker 5: When you really really drill down, then it starts to
Speaker 5: feel more possible to take action because you see that
Speaker 5: there's something very specific. It could be a lot of things,
Speaker 5: but sometimes just really trying to get to the bottom
Speaker 5: of what is really the source of this might make
Speaker 5: it easier to imagine what the next step would be.
Speaker 3: Right. One other thing too, you know, career wise, I
Speaker 3: know you've been in the same job for like it's
Speaker 3: the only job I've really ever worked. Yes, It's like yeah,
Speaker 3: and I think even though you don't have a career
Speaker 3: and you live in a small town. Don't sell yourself short,
Speaker 3: and you and I can offline about like some of
Speaker 3: the specific things to look into, But I think, look
Speaker 3: at maybe some office jobs around you, some other things,
Speaker 3: and you don't even have to be like I'm quitting
Speaker 3: my job and then I'm going to find a new job.
Speaker 3: Maybe just get curious about, like what else could I
Speaker 3: maybe get Yes, I know so many women who are like,
Speaker 3: you know what, I just decided to ask for like
Speaker 3: a crazy amount of money at this job I interviewed
Speaker 3: for and they said, yes, you know, And so I
Speaker 3: think I'm curious about, like where could I maybe get
Speaker 3: hired that, Like maybe I don't think I could get
Speaker 3: hired there, but like why not send a resume, tell
Speaker 3: them that you're your boss is like right hand person,
Speaker 3: because I know that you are. But like, don't sell
Speaker 3: yourself short. Yeah.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I feel like because I've done the same thing
Speaker 7: basically since I got out of high school, I don't
Speaker 7: even really know what kind of skills I have. M
Speaker 7: I feel like I don't even know what sort of
Speaker 7: jobs I would look at that would like best suit me.
Speaker 3: Yeah. The thing to cling to and to know and
Speaker 3: to say in interviews So she and I talked yesterday
Speaker 3: about like she has been her boss's right hand person.
Speaker 3: He knows that he can kind of like leave the
Speaker 3: store up to her and everything is going to be
Speaker 3: totally fine. He barely has to come in. That skill
Speaker 3: is not that you can teach. Oh, that skill is
Speaker 3: eminently hirable. That is the skill that will get you
Speaker 3: promotion after promotion when you decide to go somewhere else.
Speaker 3: And again, like, maybe that's not right now, maybe you
Speaker 3: want to go get some more training while you're doing
Speaker 3: this job that you like know like the back of
Speaker 3: your hand. But that skill is the one I want
Speaker 3: you to focus on with your resume and interviews.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, absolutely, that's invaluable and like and anybody hiring you
Speaker 2: will be able to recognize that. So don't minimize that,
Speaker 2: Like you've only had one job experience. You've had one
Speaker 2: job experience that taught you a lot about being independent
Speaker 2: and actually picking up the pieces and covering for the
Speaker 2: owner or coming for the you know, the head of
Speaker 2: the company. Like you do have a skill set, So
Speaker 2: don't minimize that. Exploit it, Like, yes, I can do
Speaker 2: all of these things on my own. I can keep
Speaker 2: the ball in the air, so to speak, with your job, like,
Speaker 2: you can do all of those things, and those can
Speaker 2: all be applied to different jobs, and it's a matter
Speaker 2: of trial and error in terms of what you're going
Speaker 2: to find that is interesting to you. And you just
Speaker 2: have to be laser focused on getting to find that
Speaker 2: thing you know. You keep trying, you can't after two times,
Speaker 2: and you're like, well, that didn't interest me, and that
Speaker 2: didn't interest me, I guess I'm done. No, you have
Speaker 2: to be indefatigable in your interest to better your life,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, and the quality of your life,
Speaker 2: because that will yield the best results. It always does.
Speaker 2: When you are laser focused on bettering yourself, it will come.
Speaker 2: It's like you know, anything else that you pay close
Speaker 2: attention to, you will sharpen your skills and get better
Speaker 2: at knowing what you like and what you don't like.
Speaker 2: And even every experience that you don't like is close
Speaker 2: is a step closer to getting to what you do
Speaker 2: want to do.
Speaker 5: A trick that can help is give advice to someone else.
Speaker 5: Imagine that you're talking to somebody in your exact situation,
Speaker 5: because research shows we're really good at giving advice to
Speaker 5: other people, and it's much harder take the advice for ourselves.
Speaker 5: So just like, write down what would you tell your
Speaker 5: best friend if she was an exactly your situation, and
Speaker 5: then follow your own advice. Be indefatigable doing what other
Speaker 5: person says. The other person is telling you to do,
Speaker 5: even though it's you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, so kay, We're gonna have you go sign
Speaker 3: up for three therapy sessions to work through this. Even
Speaker 3: if you think let's start with one, No, start with three.
Speaker 3: That might deal with it. You might find you need more.
Speaker 3: But get him to agree to three and get curious
Speaker 3: about what else is out there, who's hiring, And even
Speaker 3: if you don't think that you can do it, like
Speaker 3: throw them a resume, see what happens.
Speaker 8: Okay, I will, Good luck, good, thank you, thank you,
Speaker 8: bye b bye.
Speaker 2: Well.
Speaker 3: Our next question comes from Colleen. Colleen says, Dear Chelsea,
Speaker 3: I've been a teacher for twenty plus years, most of
Speaker 3: them in my current school district, but I'm thinking about
Speaker 3: a change. Last year, I got into hot water for
Speaker 3: being quote too inclusive. Unfortunately, this seems to be the
Speaker 3: direction my district is heading. Another problem is that I've
Speaker 3: been asking for a change of assignment for six years,
Speaker 3: but instead of reassigning me, they hired brand new teachers
Speaker 3: to fill those positions, not to mention how challenging the
Speaker 3: students are post COVID. I'm feeling defeated and burnt out.
Speaker 3: It may seem obvious that I should leave, but here's
Speaker 3: my dilemma. I'm at the top of the salary scale
Speaker 3: and the benefits are excellent. If I can make it
Speaker 3: through twelve more years, I can retire at fifty seven
Speaker 3: with a really good pension and benefits. My dream is
Speaker 3: to work for a nonprofit, but the pay is a joke,
Speaker 3: and I won't have the safety nets that I have now,
Speaker 3: great healthcare, sick bank, bereavement leave, etc. My friends and
Speaker 3: families support me moving on because they just want me
Speaker 3: to be happy, but my husband would rather I stick
Speaker 3: it out, even though he values my happiness, He's worried
Speaker 3: about our long term stability. I'm struggling in my current position,
Speaker 3: but starting over is terrifying and unpredictable. I dream of
Speaker 3: doing something rewarding, but I'm afraid I'll regret giving up
Speaker 3: the security. Colleen, Hi, Colleen, Hey, Colleen, Hi, Hi.
Speaker 2: This is our special guest Scratch and Reuben today.
Speaker 4: Hello.
Speaker 2: Hi, Well, I'm of the school that you have to
Speaker 2: find your own happiness, and I also think when you
Speaker 2: make a decision that's setting yourself in motion in a
Speaker 2: different direction. It really doesn't matter which direction you choose.
Speaker 2: It matters that you are married to the decision that
Speaker 2: you make and that you're committed to it. And I
Speaker 2: feel like that's where a lot of happiness comes from,
Speaker 2: is knowing that you have the ability to make that
Speaker 2: kind of decision. It's a strong one. You're saying, Okay,
Speaker 2: I'm done with this stability, I'm done with all of this.
Speaker 2: I am going to trust myself and bet on myself
Speaker 2: in moving forward. Obviously there are other people to consider here,
Speaker 2: but I do feel like your personal happiness is paramount
Speaker 2: to anything else that you're providing for your family, as
Speaker 2: long as you are not, you know, subjecting them to abuse, neglect,
Speaker 2: and all of the other negative things that can come
Speaker 2: with pursuing. I don't mean being selfish in your pursuits.
Speaker 2: I mean being self fulfilled.
Speaker 3: In your pursuits.
Speaker 2: So how do you look at that, Like, how do
Speaker 2: you look at this whole framework of what you put
Speaker 2: in that letter and what your husband says and his
Speaker 2: need for stability or his want for stability versus how
Speaker 2: you're feeling.
Speaker 6: You know, I tend to be kind of anxious, so
Speaker 6: I do appreciate the stability that I have and just
Speaker 6: knowing that, you know, I could take a personal day
Speaker 6: to be on a podcast if I.
Speaker 4: Need to, like, you know, if things come up.
Speaker 6: I have kind of that steady you know, employment and
Speaker 6: income and all that. But at the same time, you know,
Speaker 6: there's some days where I, you know, cry on my
Speaker 6: way to work, cry my way home. You know, I
Speaker 6: just feel so frustrated that I'm kind of being held
Speaker 6: back from helping kids in the way that I think
Speaker 6: they need to be helped. But maybe something's better than nothing.
Speaker 2: Well, I think you're you're probably mourning the loss of
Speaker 2: your potential, right, Yeah, absolutely, And so that is one
Speaker 2: of the most important ingredients that a human being can
Speaker 2: give themselves, is actually like fulfilling your own potential and
Speaker 2: becoming what you you know, dreamt you would become when
Speaker 2: you were a little girl.
Speaker 5: Well, one thing I would I would offer is that
Speaker 5: sometimes it's easy to fall into a false choice where
Speaker 5: it's like I either choose stability and stick with a
Speaker 5: job I really dislike for the next twelve years, or
Speaker 5: I risk everything and follow my dreams. Whereas in fact,
Speaker 5: it's like, are those the only two choices you said
Speaker 5: that you've tried for six years to get another?
Speaker 4: You know, to switch?
Speaker 5: Like are there other things that you could do that
Speaker 5: would the parts that you like, the stability and the
Speaker 5: benefits and everything, but would allow you to get away
Speaker 5: from the things that you don't want? Like are there
Speaker 5: more avenues within what you're doing now that would take
Speaker 5: you closer to the things that would make you happier
Speaker 5: and away from the things that are bringing you down,
Speaker 5: Because because it's not like stay where I am or
Speaker 5: leave everything, Like what are the options in between? Maybe
Speaker 5: you've exhausted them, but maybe you haven't. Also, you said
Speaker 5: your dream is to work for a nonprofit. Sometimes we
Speaker 5: have an idea of the way something is, and it
Speaker 5: is that way, or sometimes it's not that way. So
Speaker 5: maybe one thing you could do is to volunteer or
Speaker 5: something and get a sense of what it's really like,
Speaker 5: because then it probably will be clear like, Wow, this
Speaker 5: is really worth a big risk because it's exactly what
Speaker 5: I wanted. Or maybe you're like, wow, it's actually there's
Speaker 5: a lot of issues there too, like are there ways
Speaker 5: that you can test it out in a halfway point?
Speaker 5: Because money can't buy happiness, but if put can buy
Speaker 5: a lot of things that buy happiness, and one of
Speaker 5: the things is security and not having to worry about money.
Speaker 5: So it is a big concern to not leave lightly.
Speaker 5: You know, you want to make sure that you're you're
Speaker 5: signing up for what you expect if you do decide
Speaker 5: to make that transition. I don't know how much you
Speaker 5: know about the landscape of where you might go. I
Speaker 5: do volunteer with some local organizations oh great that I do.
Speaker 6: Care about, and I know there are you know, some
Speaker 6: frustrations in those things as well. There's always something yeah, it's.
Speaker 3: Something yeah, no, And I love that idea of like
Speaker 3: seeing what else there is in your current environment. I mean,
Speaker 3: maybe it's even like I don't know if kids are
Speaker 3: who you want to work with as far as nonprofit goes,
Speaker 3: but maybe it is like creating an answerery program within
Speaker 3: your school that you help run, or maybe it's even
Speaker 3: taking a leave of absence for a year and diving
Speaker 3: in and seeing like at the end of the year
Speaker 3: you can decide is this what I really want to
Speaker 3: continue doing or do I really want to go back
Speaker 3: and make it to my pension.
Speaker 5: Another question I think is really helpful when you sort
Speaker 5: of feel like you can't pros and cons, you just
Speaker 5: kind of can't think you're way through it is to say,
Speaker 5: choose the bigger life?
Speaker 4: What is the bigger life?
Speaker 5: Because it might be like, well, really, the bigger life
Speaker 5: is like having the freedom and having the security and
Speaker 5: knowing what I know, knowing my schedule, and like, actually
Speaker 5: that's the bigger life, or the bigger life is like no,
Speaker 5: I want to step away from all that and towards
Speaker 5: something that I'm really passionate about.
Speaker 4: But sometimes sometimes I found that.
Speaker 5: Like I'd be completely perplexed, and then when I think, well,
Speaker 5: what's the bigger life, it becomes much more obvious.
Speaker 4: So that's a question to consider.
Speaker 6: That's great because you know, one of the things my
Speaker 6: husband will say sometimes is, you know, look at all
Speaker 6: the things you're able to do now, the way you're
Speaker 6: able to donate your time and your money.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know that maybe wouldn't be available.
Speaker 5: It's so easy to take things for granted when we
Speaker 5: have them and we only appreciate them when we lose
Speaker 5: them or we think we might lose them. So you
Speaker 5: might even do the thought exercise of like imagine your
Speaker 5: future self two years from now. Had you done that,
Speaker 5: maybe go through the calendar year and think like, well,
Speaker 5: what would life be like?
Speaker 4: Because it is a very big decision.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I do think something people neglect as well is
Speaker 3: both the soft and the hard costs to continuing to
Speaker 3: do something that like makes you feel awful every day,
Speaker 3: like trying on your way to work. You know, that's
Speaker 3: not only an emotional cost, but it's also like maybe
Speaker 3: you're doubling up on therapy because you know, because you're
Speaker 3: feeling so awful about it, and like how you're spending
Speaker 3: your time, you know what your work is doing to
Speaker 3: your insides, So like there are hard costs associated with
Speaker 3: that as well. There are health costs, often there are
Speaker 3: mental health costs, So I think that's something too weigh
Speaker 3: as well. Well, Chelsea, anything else we want to say
Speaker 3: to Colleen as she makes a decision here.
Speaker 2: I mean, I, yeah, you know, I would really just
Speaker 2: sit with yourself and really try to listen to what
Speaker 2: is going to be the best outcome for you and
Speaker 2: not make any rash decisions, but really like kind of
Speaker 2: investigate and really listen to yourself. You know, your relationship
Speaker 2: with yourself is so important and sometimes we get confused
Speaker 2: about what that means. But I mean, being truly happy
Speaker 2: in this life I think is like a great pursuit.
Speaker 2: I mean, we only get this chance, so you may
Speaker 2: as well make the most of it. You know, you
Speaker 2: don't want to have regrets when you're older. You don't
Speaker 2: want to have regrets when you're dead or dying or
Speaker 2: sick or any of that. You want to think, Wow,
Speaker 2: like I'm proud of who I was, and I'm proud
Speaker 2: of like the chances that I took. So I would
Speaker 2: say take that with you. And obviously you're not going
Speaker 2: to do anything crazy or like you know, it's not
Speaker 2: like you're going to become like a skydiver. It's not
Speaker 2: like you know, your your thoughts and your feelings are
Speaker 2: so rational and now it's like time to really examine
Speaker 2: them and and and get to a place where you
Speaker 2: are confident in making the next step where it's not
Speaker 2: a question, it's actually like the only it's the only answer.
Speaker 2: So does is that helpful at all to you?
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a lot to think about.
Speaker 6: And you know, everyone I've talked to is you know,
Speaker 6: there's there's, like you said, the pros and the cons
Speaker 6: and my happiness is important, but you know, will I
Speaker 6: get that I be able to be happy without some
Speaker 6: of the other things that come along with that stability piece.
Speaker 4: So kind of hoping you just tell.
Speaker 3: Me to do we just decide for you.
Speaker 5: Well, you know what what you could do sometimes is
Speaker 5: you flip a coin and then if it's like if
Speaker 5: you're like, no, I want to flip again and you're like, oh, well,
Speaker 5: then you know what you want. Because one way you're like, oh,
Speaker 5: I'll take heads, but then you're like, no, let's see
Speaker 5: two out of three. It's like okay, you know now
Speaker 5: you know what you really want.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I love that. Or also give yourself a timeline,
Speaker 3: say like, okay, if in six months I'm still feeling
Speaker 3: this way and I just can't stand it, then like,
Speaker 3: I'm not going to renew for the next year. You know,
Speaker 3: I'm gonna look for something else or just be looking
Speaker 3: for the other thing, and you know, when the right
Speaker 3: thing comes up, then you'll know.
Speaker 4: Thank you. And is there another position that you could get?
Speaker 5: I mean maybe you're not going to get your top
Speaker 5: of the pay scale, but that you would have other
Speaker 5: things that are important to you too, Like again the
Speaker 5: false choice, It might be maybe you can get some
Speaker 5: of the things that are important to you in a
Speaker 5: new position as well. So maybe the sacrifice isn't as
Speaker 5: great as you might expected to be in terms of
Speaker 5: like scheduling freedom, which sounds like it's very important to you.
Speaker 6: Something could come up so I can I can hang
Speaker 6: around and see keep my eye open for something new
Speaker 6: and see what's you know around in my current job.
Speaker 3: And I think you want to be told to leave
Speaker 3: your job, don't you?
Speaker 4: I think so.
Speaker 2: I I think you should also just send an email
Speaker 2: out to like your closest friends and people that you trust,
Speaker 2: say like, you're looking for a career change, and if
Speaker 2: anyone you know and like, cast a net to like
Speaker 2: see what pops up, because you never really know, and
Speaker 2: people don't they under use that your whole network of
Speaker 2: people are there and you never know what somebody has
Speaker 2: you know for you, maybe an opportunity or they know someone,
Speaker 2: or they just heard about a job that may be
Speaker 2: of interest to you. But I think as long as
Speaker 2: you put all your feelers out there. It's like when
Speaker 2: they people talk about trying to meet a guy and
Speaker 2: no one's doing anything about it. It's like you have
Speaker 2: to be you have to be forward facing, like you
Speaker 2: have to be activated in the direction that you want
Speaker 2: to go to get some results. It's not just going
Speaker 2: to someone's not going to knock on your door and
Speaker 2: be like, do you want this job? It's perfect for you,
Speaker 2: Like be productive about it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's great advice.
Speaker 5: Research shows that we're often more benefited by loose ties
Speaker 5: because the people who you have strong ties to basically
Speaker 5: know the same things you know. But it's like the
Speaker 5: friend of your cousin or that guy that you used
Speaker 5: to work with ten years ago who you ran into
Speaker 5: at the grocery store. These loose ties are often where
Speaker 5: you find new opportunities because they're connected to worlds that
Speaker 5: you don't already have access to. So this idea of
Speaker 5: casting a very wide net and kind of mentioning it
Speaker 5: broadly is really really useful. That's that's a very consistent
Speaker 5: finding in the research.
Speaker 6: Okay, that's definitely something I hadn't thought about.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's great.
Speaker 2: Okay, Well keep us posted too, let us know what
Speaker 2: happens in the next few months with you, Colleen.
Speaker 4: Okay, Okay, Luck.
Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you so much. I love you all.
Speaker 6: Thank you.
Speaker 2: Okay, Okay, we're going to take a break and we're
Speaker 2: going to be right back.
Speaker 4: Okay.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you Gretchen so much for your insight on
Speaker 2: happiness and remaining that way and pursuing it. And we
Speaker 2: appreciate your time.
Speaker 5: Well, thanks so much. I so enjoyed the chance to
Speaker 5: talk to you and to your callers. Okay, take care,
Speaker 5: thanks so much.
Speaker 2: Okay, guys, so for stand up. My next two shows
Speaker 2: in Vancouver are March twenty ninth. There are still tickets
Speaker 2: available for March thirtieth in Vancouver if you're in the
Speaker 2: Vancouver area, so get your tickets before they run out.
Speaker 2: That's March twenty ninth.
Speaker 4: It sold out.
Speaker 2: March thirtieth tickets available, and then I'm coming to Salt
Speaker 2: Lake City on April fourth, and I'm coming to Denver,
Speaker 2: Colorado on April fifth. Tickets are still available for those two. Maricopa,
Speaker 2: Arizona is April twelfth, and then Brooks, California is April thirteenth.
Speaker 2: And we added a second show in Sydney, and we
Speaker 2: added a second show in Prior Lake, Minnesota, which is
Speaker 2: now going to be May twenty fourth.
Speaker 1: We added the Santa Barbara Bowl, which.
Speaker 2: Is so fun. I performed there last year. That's August seventeenth,
Speaker 2: the Santa Barbara Bowl. We ended a second show at
Speaker 2: Santa Rosa on August second, and we added two dates
Speaker 2: at Hawaii, guys. I'm coming to Hawaii on July nineteenth.
Speaker 1: To Cahulu Kahulu.
Speaker 2: Oh shit, I know I was saying that wrong. And
Speaker 2: then I'm coming on July twenty at to Honolulu. And
Speaker 2: I just added another date on August first Auburn, Washington.
Speaker 2: So and all my Australia and New Zealand dates are up,
Speaker 2: and I will be announcing a European tour shortly, so
Speaker 2: I will be coming there. And I'm coming to Oklahoma.
Speaker 2: I have two dates in Oklahoma May third, which is
Speaker 2: my mother's birthday, Norman, Oklahoma, and May fourth, I will
Speaker 2: be in.
Speaker 1: Thackerville, Oklahoma.
Speaker 2: So Oklahomians, Oklahoma's Oklahom's come side.
Speaker 3: If you'd like advice from Chelsea, shoot us an email
Speaker 3: at Dear Chelsea podcast at gmail dot com and be
Speaker 3: sure to include your phone number. Dear Chelsea is edited
Speaker 3: and engineered by BREA executive producer Katherine Law and be
Speaker 3: sure to check out our merch at Chelseahandler dot com