Speaker 1: Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Lari Gottlieb. I'm the author of
Speaker 1: Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the
Speaker 1: Dear Therapist advice column for The Atlantic.
Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,
Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for TED.
Speaker 2: And this is Deo Therapists.
Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a session so you
Speaker 1: can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help
Speaker 1: other people come to understand themselves better and make changes
Speaker 1: in their lives.
Speaker 2: So sit back and welcome to today's session.
Speaker 1: This week, our fellow traveler is haunted by the ghost
Speaker 1: of his last relationship as he tries to move on
Speaker 1: with a new partner.
Speaker 3: It's really hard for me to open up to him
Speaker 3: because every time in the past I have opened up
Speaker 3: about my feelings, it's either been met with rejection or
Speaker 3: met with OCD. So it's really hard for me to
Speaker 3: trust that I can have a safe person to open
Speaker 3: up to first.
Speaker 2: A quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only,
Speaker 2: does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and is not
Speaker 2: a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always
Speaker 2: seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional, or
Speaker 2: other qualified health provider with any questions you may have
Speaker 2: regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,
Speaker 2: you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part
Speaker 2: or in full, and we may edit it for length
Speaker 2: and clarity and the sessions you'll hear. All names have
Speaker 2: been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers.
Speaker 1: Hi Laurie, Hi Guy. So I think today we're going
Speaker 1: to talk about relationships.
Speaker 2: We are. We have a letter from someone who's in
Speaker 2: a new relationship but not quite over the old one,
Speaker 2: and it goes like this, Geotherapists. Eight months ago, I
Speaker 2: got out of an engagement with my five and a
Speaker 2: half year partner. It had been a long time coming
Speaker 2: and was ultimately better for the both of us. My
Speaker 2: former fiance suffered from severe clinical OCD. His compulsions included
Speaker 2: excessive repeating of the same question that often centered around
Speaker 2: me or our relationship, for example, asking twenty times in
Speaker 2: a row if it was considered cheating, if he thought
Speaker 2: another man was attractive, or apologizing for sighing and making
Speaker 2: sure I knew that he wasn't mad at me. I
Speaker 2: had been having doubts about being in the relationship for
Speaker 2: quite a while. The constant questions drove me to the
Speaker 2: point of almost madness and caused a lot of anxiety,
Speaker 2: self doubt, and insecurities within myself. I felt he never
Speaker 2: supported me or could be present for the things I
Speaker 2: needed because we were too focused on him and his needs.
Speaker 2: In the end, he was the one who ended things
Speaker 2: to me. It was completely out of the blue. I
Speaker 2: had shared my unhappiness with a relationship on multiple occasions.
Speaker 2: He always cried and said he would change, and told
Speaker 2: me how much he wanted to be with me. He
Speaker 2: never once told me he was unhappy or that he
Speaker 2: needed something different from me. I think that was the
Speaker 2: hardest part. After all these years I had supported him,
Speaker 2: it was difficult to accept that he was the one
Speaker 2: who couldn't be with me anymore. I have since entered
Speaker 2: a new and much healthier relationship, and even though I
Speaker 2: have moved on from my ex and don't have feelings
Speaker 2: towards them anymore, it still seems like he occupies a
Speaker 2: lot of my thoughts. I question what it says about
Speaker 2: me that I allowed myself to be in such an
Speaker 2: unhealthy relationship for so long can you help me find
Speaker 2: peace and closure with this toxic past. I don't want
Speaker 2: it to affect my current relationship, but sometimes feel so
Speaker 2: stuck in the past, even though my partner loves and
Speaker 2: supports me in the ways I need. I fear it's
Speaker 2: only a matter of time before things go wrong, or
Speaker 2: question if I'm missing signs that it won't work out, Doug.
Speaker 1: This is so common when somebody has a relationship that
Speaker 1: really marked them in a way, even when they move
Speaker 1: on to a much healthier relationship, if they haven't processed
Speaker 1: what happened in the other relationship, meaning it's not just
Speaker 1: that the relationship is over, it's that they processed what
Speaker 1: happened during that time, they end up feeling like there's
Speaker 1: something incomplete, something unfinished, and they can't truly enjoy the
Speaker 1: new relationship.
Speaker 2: It's also very common that when you're with somebody who
Speaker 2: has a manifest disorder, whether mental or physical, so much
Speaker 2: attention goes to that disorder that a lot of other
Speaker 2: things get lost. And OCD is very difficult because people
Speaker 2: who have it described that they feel harassed by it,
Speaker 2: but then often their partners can feel harassed by it
Speaker 2: as well, because it can be a very difficult disorder
Speaker 2: to live with.
Speaker 1: And the thing too about the OCD is that it
Speaker 1: took up so much space in the relationship, and there
Speaker 1: was so much focus on what the partner was doing
Speaker 1: that was harmful in the relationship. But it takes two
Speaker 1: And there was a question that he asked, which I
Speaker 1: think was a good one that I want to explore
Speaker 1: with him, which was what was his role in this
Speaker 1: relationship and why was he in it for so long?
Speaker 2: I agree, so let's go explore it with him.
Speaker 1: You're listening to Dear Therapists for My Heart Radio. We'll
Speaker 1: be back after a short break. I'm laur Gottlieber and I'm.
Speaker 2: Guy Wench and this is Deotherapists. Hey Doug, welcome to
Speaker 2: the show.
Speaker 3: Hey Lori, Hi Guy, how are you doing today.
Speaker 1: We're well, Thanks for coming on the show.
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2: You're welcome. We'd like to hear a little bit more
Speaker 2: about the relationship, the ups and the downs. You mentioned
Speaker 2: some of the downs, but we'd like to hear a
Speaker 2: little bit about how bad things got, how good things were,
Speaker 2: and how things came to an end.
Speaker 3: Sure, So Max and I met back in twenty fourteen,
Speaker 3: and we met through work and connected right off the bat.
Speaker 3: He was a really friendly guy and just really easy
Speaker 3: to talk to, so we started dating shortly after we met.
Speaker 3: Everything was good at first, and about six months in
Speaker 3: he told me that he battled OCD clinical OCD and
Speaker 3: OCD can manifest differently for everybody, but for Max in particular,
Speaker 3: he would have obsessive thoughts and then repeat himself many,
Speaker 3: many times, and over time it progressively got worse. When
Speaker 3: we started dating, it was, you know, maybe once a
Speaker 3: day every other day he would start really focusing on something,
Speaker 3: and towards the end it was all the time. It
Speaker 3: was all day, every day, from morning to night, about
Speaker 3: really anything. It could have been. He was upset that
Speaker 3: he breathed wrong, or maybe he saw somebody attractive and thought,
Speaker 3: is that cheating? Do I want to be with this
Speaker 3: guy more than with Doug? And I think over time
Speaker 3: I didn't realize how much it was weighing on me,
Speaker 3: and my anxiety and my depression was really starting to
Speaker 3: come through, because I mean, it was really just all
Speaker 3: about him and all about his problems, and towards the
Speaker 3: end it really got to the point where we were
Speaker 3: fighting in front of our friends. I would try to
Speaker 3: remove myself from the situation. I would lock myself in
Speaker 3: the bathroom in the bedroom, and he would pick the lock.
Speaker 3: I would try to leave the house just to get
Speaker 3: some space, and he would call me thirty times in
Speaker 3: a row to turn off my phone. So it got
Speaker 3: really intense. Towards the end. At the four year mark,
Speaker 3: we got engaged, and I was really apprehensive about it,
Speaker 3: but I was also really hopeful because I thought maybe
Speaker 3: this would be a time in our relationship where we
Speaker 3: could really focus on starting fresh and starting new and
Speaker 3: really going forward with getting his OCD under control.
Speaker 1: Doug, let me interrupt and ask you a question. It
Speaker 1: sounds like the relationship was so volatile and there was
Speaker 1: so much stress. You're fighting in front of friends, you
Speaker 1: were locking yourself in a room, he was picking the lock.
Speaker 1: What made you both decide we should take this to
Speaker 1: the next step and get engaged.
Speaker 3: I think for both of us it was our first
Speaker 3: serious relationship, and all of our friends had been getting engaged.
Speaker 3: It just kind of made sense at the time of
Speaker 3: our life. And I really did love Max. I loved
Speaker 3: his family. I don't have a great relationship with my family,
Speaker 3: and his family fully embraced me from the very first
Speaker 3: time that we met, and I think I was really
Speaker 3: excited to have that in my life, and it was
Speaker 3: really important for me to have that. And we did
Speaker 3: have a lot of good times together. We had a
Speaker 3: lot of great memories together, and I really had hope
Speaker 3: that it would get better. I knew the OCD would
Speaker 3: always be there, but I thought with therapy and with work,
Speaker 3: we could make it better. And it just never really
Speaker 3: got better.
Speaker 2: And did you see Max doing any of those things,
Speaker 2: going to therapy or doing the work to change Based
Speaker 2: on the requests that you've made about the things that
Speaker 2: made you uncomfortable.
Speaker 3: He would go to therapy every once in a while,
Speaker 3: it was always really hit or miss, and it was
Speaker 3: always me trying to push him to go. When I
Speaker 3: would have conversations about being unhappy. My two requests were,
Speaker 3: please see a therapist regularly, and please reach out to
Speaker 3: your friends or your family for support, because it all
Speaker 3: kind of fell on me. He never really did that consistently.
Speaker 3: He didn't feel comfortable talking to his friends or family.
Speaker 3: He was very private about his OCD, so no, I
Speaker 3: never really saw much of an effort, which was where
Speaker 3: my frustration came in.
Speaker 1: I hear how hard it was for you that he
Speaker 1: was having so much trouble with the OCD. Did he
Speaker 1: feel like he was having trouble with it? In other words,
Speaker 1: it sounds like you were the one saying, please get
Speaker 1: some help for this, and it sounds like it was
Speaker 1: pretty severe. Was he saying I don't like having to
Speaker 1: live this way or did he not feel like it
Speaker 1: was as big of an issue as you did.
Speaker 3: He definitely knew it was an issue, and he struggled
Speaker 3: with it. And to him, going to therapy and doing
Speaker 3: the work was harder than living with his OCD. He
Speaker 3: wasn't willing to put in that work because a lot
Speaker 3: of the therapy was exposure and putting himself in situations
Speaker 3: that would make him feel uncomfortable, and he didn't want
Speaker 3: to do that.
Speaker 2: And when did that become apparent to you that he
Speaker 2: didn't want to do that? How far into the relationship.
Speaker 3: I would say probably after the first year, year and
Speaker 3: a half, and I continued to have hope that he
Speaker 3: would go and after we got engaged and I told
Speaker 3: him I'm going to put a pause on our wedding
Speaker 3: plans because I don't feel comfortable moving forward. I really
Speaker 3: need to see you making an effort to go to
Speaker 3: therapy and work on this, and he didn't. And after
Speaker 3: all these conversations, he would cry, he would say he
Speaker 3: was going to do the work. He would get me
Speaker 3: flowers or write me letters, and nothing ever changed. And
Speaker 3: eventually I told him I'm not seeing a change, and
Speaker 3: he immediately got out his phone and made five appointments
Speaker 3: with a therapist. But at that point it was too little,
Speaker 3: too late, and ultimately he was the one who ended
Speaker 3: it with me. He told me he was unhappy, and
Speaker 3: that's the first time he had even said that to me,
Speaker 3: So it really came as a shock that he was
Speaker 3: unhappy with me when he never really voiced that.
Speaker 1: You said, when he said, okay, I'm going to go
Speaker 1: do this, you said, it's too little too late. What
Speaker 1: do you mean you were seeing that he was finally
Speaker 1: doing the thing that you had waited years to happen.
Speaker 1: So why was it too little too late? You were
Speaker 1: still in the relationship, You hadn't broken up with him,
Speaker 1: You weren't planning to. He was the one who broke
Speaker 1: up with you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was planning on breaking up with him. I
Speaker 3: knew that it wasn't good. I think I was so
Speaker 3: afraid to break up with him, and I just didn't
Speaker 3: have those feelings of love. I just felt mostly resentment.
Speaker 2: Why were you afraid to break up with him?
Speaker 3: I think I was afraid because I had never really
Speaker 3: been on my own. I had such a strong support
Speaker 3: system with his family and with his friends. I have
Speaker 3: my own friends and support system, but I just really
Speaker 3: didn't have a lot and his family and friends really
Speaker 3: supported me, and I was afraid that I was going
Speaker 3: to lose that with losing him, and I think the
Speaker 3: fear of an unknown future was scary to me too.
Speaker 3: Having at least a plan moving forward with somebody and
Speaker 3: knowing kind of what my life was going to look
Speaker 3: like was comforting to me in a way, even though
Speaker 3: I was unhappy. I know it doesn't make sense, but
Speaker 3: that's kind of where I was.
Speaker 1: I think it makes perfect sense. One of the things
Speaker 1: you keep mentioning is his family and the draw of
Speaker 1: his family, and I'm wondering if you could tell us
Speaker 1: a little bit more about your family and why you
Speaker 1: felt like you didn't have that in your family.
Speaker 3: So I was raised in a very religious family. My
Speaker 3: dad is a pastor, my mom is a stay at
Speaker 3: home mom. I have two older sisters that are married
Speaker 3: with children and an older brother, and everybody in my
Speaker 3: family is pretty religious, and so when I came out
Speaker 3: around the age of twenty three, it really wasn't accepted
Speaker 3: with my family. They really I got kicked out of
Speaker 3: my parents' house. I moved in with my best friend.
Speaker 3: I had all of my stuff in two trash bags
Speaker 3: and just kind of said I'm moving in with you.
Speaker 3: And it was really tough for a long time because
Speaker 3: my family has always stressed the importance of our family
Speaker 3: bond and I felt that I was disappointing them and
Speaker 3: letting them down. And even throughout my relationship with Max,
Speaker 3: my parents never asked about him. In five and a
Speaker 3: half years and being engaged, they never met him. They
Speaker 3: didn't really care. And I would be on a FaceTime
Speaker 3: or a video call and they would ask about my dog,
Speaker 3: and then they wouldn't even mention anything about Max. So
Speaker 3: it was very much a part of my life that
Speaker 3: they did not want to know about.
Speaker 2: And noticing that when you talk about Max, and also
Speaker 2: when you talk about your parents, you seem much more
Speaker 2: fluent in talking about their feelings and what they were
Speaker 2: going through than you are your own. So you said,
Speaker 2: you know, I felt like I really disappointed them. They
Speaker 2: felt very disappointed in my parents. But they kicked you out.
Speaker 2: You literally had to put your stuff in trash bags
Speaker 2: and go to a friend. You didn't really mention and
Speaker 2: any feelings you might have had about that kind of
Speaker 2: disappointment of your parents actually not accepting you and kicking
Speaker 2: you out of the house. So first, I do want
Speaker 2: to hear what that was like for you, But I
Speaker 2: also want to ask you if that's something that you
Speaker 2: notice that you do that you really focus on the
Speaker 2: other person's feelings and yours come after that.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I do have a hard time articulating my own
Speaker 3: feelings a lot of the times, and I think during
Speaker 3: that time, I just felt shame that I wasn't doing
Speaker 3: what my family thought was best for me. That's when
Speaker 3: I would say I really started feeling depressed and anxious.
Speaker 3: Was during that time.
Speaker 2: You're saying that I felt shame for not doing what
Speaker 2: my family wanted, But it's actually not about what you're doing,
Speaker 2: it's about who you are.
Speaker 3: Yeah, much more refound definitely, Yeah, And I felt very
Speaker 3: alone during that time, and I think with Max. That's
Speaker 3: all I did was put his feelings and needs before
Speaker 3: my own. And it is a very lonely feeling because
Speaker 3: I can sit here and explain what it's like to
Speaker 3: have somebody ask you the same question twenty times in
Speaker 3: a row, or from morning tonight, just non stop asking
Speaker 3: the same thing. And I would explain that to my friends.
Speaker 3: I would tell them about it. Sometimes they would even experience,
Speaker 3: but they never really fully understood. So was a very
Speaker 3: lonely feeling because no one quite understands what it's like
Speaker 3: to go through that.
Speaker 2: But even here in this example, who actually didn't tell
Speaker 2: us anything about how that feled to you? So how
Speaker 2: did that feel to you?
Speaker 3: It was frustrating. It would anger me. I would get
Speaker 3: so angry so quick. Even if you just asked me
Speaker 3: the same question just a second time after the first time,
Speaker 3: I would instantly get super angry because it just was unending.
Speaker 1: Did you ever get angry with your parents?
Speaker 3: I did. I went about a year without speaking to
Speaker 3: them because I didn't know how to address what I
Speaker 3: was feeling. I didn't know how to talk to them
Speaker 3: about how they made me feel, and it was easier
Speaker 3: to just not respond. They live out of state, so
Speaker 3: it was really easy to just not talk to them.
Speaker 2: Did you ever express that to them thereafter? How you
Speaker 2: felt the anger because to be kicked out of your
Speaker 2: house by your parents, who raised you and loved you
Speaker 2: and their other siblings, and I'm sure they were welcome,
Speaker 2: to be actually kicked out because of who you are,
Speaker 2: must feel horrible. Did you ever tell them? Do you
Speaker 2: ever have an opportunity in the years that followed to
Speaker 2: tell them what that was like for you?
Speaker 3: I did. I started going to therapy myself, which was
Speaker 3: really profound, and my therapist helped me write a letter
Speaker 3: to them, because a lot of times when I would
Speaker 3: try speaking to my parents, they would my mom especially
Speaker 3: would overtalk or interrupt, or they would have Bible verses
Speaker 3: that counteracted what I would say or how I was feeling,
Speaker 3: and I was never able to fully articulate in those
Speaker 3: moments how I felt. So I was able to write
Speaker 3: them a letter and kind of laid everything out about
Speaker 3: how I was feeling. And it felt really good to
Speaker 3: send that, And I would say, that's kind of the
Speaker 3: turning point in my family's relationship with me. It kind
Speaker 3: of opened up some conversations about what it was like
Speaker 3: to be me. I don't think they had really put
Speaker 3: themselves in my shoes, even though they still believe the
Speaker 3: same way. We can at least have a little bit
Speaker 3: more open conversations about being gay, about living my truth,
Speaker 3: and it's not as combative anymore as it had been previously.
Speaker 2: How did they respond when they got that letter?
Speaker 3: They wrote me a letter back, and they were understanding,
Speaker 3: I would say, where I was coming from. They still
Speaker 3: had a lot to say about how they felt and
Speaker 3: where they were coming from. And I think they felt
Speaker 3: terrible that they had put me through, that they had
Speaker 3: kind of had it in their minds that they were
Speaker 3: doing this out of love and because they cared about me,
Speaker 3: and because they were worried about my future. They didn't
Speaker 3: realize that they were the ones that were hurting me
Speaker 3: and making me feel less than or unequal to my siblings.
Speaker 1: What was your siblings reaction you talk about up being alone.
Speaker 1: Was it your parents and your siblings who reacted the
Speaker 1: same way, or did your siblings have a different reaction.
Speaker 3: My sisters are both pretty religious as well. I would
Speaker 3: say it wasn't as extreme as my parents, But my
Speaker 3: one sister did say she didn't want me around her
Speaker 3: kids alone because she was worried that I would hurt
Speaker 3: them or influence them in some way. So that was
Speaker 3: really tough because I've always been really close with my sisters.
Speaker 3: My brother is not super religious, so he was a
Speaker 3: little bit more accepting and understanding, but he kind of
Speaker 3: had his own problems with my parents, so he kind
Speaker 3: of stayed out of that family dynamic.
Speaker 1: Has it changed with your sister since then so that
Speaker 1: you can be with her children and she has shifted
Speaker 1: in her views.
Speaker 3: She has I feel like it's easier for me to
Speaker 3: talk to my sisters. I think they understand more how
Speaker 3: hurtful it has been for me, and they're much more
Speaker 3: open to even talking about my life and my partners,
Speaker 3: and they're fine with me being around their kids. So
Speaker 3: that definitely has improved over time.
Speaker 2: How is your parents' relationship.
Speaker 3: They have been together for a really long time, I
Speaker 3: think over forty years. They fought a lot when we
Speaker 3: were kids, and it was always behind closed doors. So
Speaker 3: my dad, like I said, as a pastor, so they
Speaker 3: could be fighting on the car on the way to church,
Speaker 3: and then when we would walk into church, everything would
Speaker 3: be fine and great. There were a lot of actually
Speaker 3: a lot of similarities between the way that my parents
Speaker 3: would fight and the way that Max and I would fight.
Speaker 3: My mom wasn't ever diagnosed with OCD, and she refused
Speaker 3: to ever go and find not if she was. But
Speaker 3: there were so many similarities between my mom and Max,
Speaker 3: and it felt sometimes that I was just living the
Speaker 3: same life as my parents in a way.
Speaker 1: What was it like with your mom? Can you give
Speaker 1: us an example of something that was similar?
Speaker 3: Yeah, So she would be telling a story, for instance,
Speaker 3: about something that happened at church, and as one does
Speaker 3: in a conversation, we would interject, the kids would interject,
Speaker 3: my dad would interject, and she would get really frustrated
Speaker 3: by someone interrupting her, and she would start her whole
Speaker 3: story all over again. She was also really really particular
Speaker 3: about how the house looked, about how tighty it was,
Speaker 3: how everything would be placed, and she would notice dust
Speaker 3: on the floor that nobody could see, and she would
Speaker 3: be really really ainal about trying to make sure everything
Speaker 3: was right. Even as kids, we would have to have
Speaker 3: our rooms clean and our beds made in the morning
Speaker 3: before we would go to school.
Speaker 2: When did it occur to you that I have had OCD.
Speaker 2: Fiance has OCD one of those two connect for you.
Speaker 3: I think when we when my fiance and I started
Speaker 3: fighting more, and I remember having one conversation that was
Speaker 3: pretty much identical to the conversations my parents would have,
Speaker 3: where my partner would be relentless in talking about the
Speaker 3: same thing over and over, and at first I would
Speaker 3: maybe try to stay on my ground or tell him
Speaker 3: he needed to stop, or even try the silent treatment,
Speaker 3: and he would just keep going and going until I
Speaker 3: would just throw my hands up and say, Okay, you're right, Yeah,
Speaker 3: it's fine, or just agree with whatever he would say
Speaker 3: to move forward so that we weren't stuck on the
Speaker 3: same thing. And that was exactly what my dad did
Speaker 3: all the time, because he would rather just let it
Speaker 3: go than continue to argue. Because my mom would just
Speaker 3: keep going until everyone would agree with her.
Speaker 2: See, in that moment, you might make that connection, but
Speaker 2: you literally have the model that but you don't get
Speaker 2: divorced over it, you don't break up over it. Your
Speaker 2: dad totivated it for the forty years and he was
Speaker 2: a trooper, so you must have felt like, no, this
Speaker 2: is not grounds for a breakup. Because my parents have
Speaker 2: a similar situation and they did not break up.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly right.
Speaker 1: When he broke up with you tell us about the
Speaker 1: context in which that happened.
Speaker 3: So when we would have our conversations and I would
Speaker 3: come to him and tell him the things that I needed,
Speaker 3: like going to therapy or reaching out to his friends,
Speaker 3: he would always just ask me for patience, and he
Speaker 3: would always say how much he loved me and wanted
Speaker 3: to make things work. And his mom is battling pancreatic
Speaker 3: cancer and has been battling that for almost two years now,
Speaker 3: and one night we were on the phone with her
Speaker 3: and praying with her, and when we got off the phone,
Speaker 3: he just started crying and asked him what was wrong,
Speaker 3: and I told him she's going to be okay, It's
Speaker 3: going to be okay, and he just said, I think
Speaker 3: we should break up. I'm unhappy, And at that exact moment,
Speaker 3: I felt relieved. I was sad, and I even said,
Speaker 3: I agree. I think that this is the right decision
Speaker 3: for us. And we kind of just had a peaceful
Speaker 3: night where we reminisced about our past and we talked
Speaker 3: about our dog, and we just really kind of made
Speaker 3: a plan for the future. What we were going to
Speaker 3: do as far as a living situation. And then overnight,
Speaker 3: I think that's when the fear for me really started
Speaker 3: to set in and I thought, no, I don't want
Speaker 3: this to end. I think again, because I was just afraid.
Speaker 3: And so the next day I wrote him a letter
Speaker 3: and I told him, I want to fight for this.
Speaker 3: I want to make this work. You have never told
Speaker 3: me what you needed from me, so I can give
Speaker 3: you what you need. Maybe we can go to couple's therapy,
Speaker 3: maybe we can take some time apart and think about it.
Speaker 3: And he was really really unwilling to do any of
Speaker 3: that work. And I was really surprised by that and
Speaker 3: really hurt by that because I had tried for so
Speaker 3: long to make it work and he ended it because
Speaker 3: he was unhappy and I had no idea and wasn't
Speaker 3: willing to fight or work on anything.
Speaker 1: Do you know why he was unhappy? Was able to
Speaker 1: tell you because for five and a half years he
Speaker 1: never told you that he was unhappy, And now he's saying,
Speaker 1: I don't want this, I've been unhappy.
Speaker 3: He didn't did you ask him? I did ask him.
Speaker 3: He didn't really have a reason. He had a really
Speaker 3: hard time articulating it. I brought up the fact that
Speaker 3: it must be hard for him to know that I
Speaker 3: was really frustrated and that I would get really angry,
Speaker 3: and he kind of agreed to that, and I tried
Speaker 3: reaching out to his friends and his family to see
Speaker 3: if any of them had any further insight, and they didn't.
Speaker 2: You said you were surprised that when you said, hey,
Speaker 2: I'll work on this, let's go to therapy, let's do something,
Speaker 2: that he wasn't willing to work on it. When for
Speaker 2: five and a half years he wasn't willing to work
Speaker 2: on things. Why were you surprised that here at the end,
Speaker 2: he yet again was not willing to work on things.
Speaker 3: I think because we did have such a long relationship,
Speaker 3: and so I thought maybe maybe he would be able
Speaker 3: to tell me why he was upset or unhappy in therapy,
Speaker 3: or maybe things would come out that we could work
Speaker 3: on together to help our relationship.
Speaker 2: So you said, at first I was relieved, and then
Speaker 2: overnight I got really scared and it was going to
Speaker 2: be scary because similar to when you had to pack
Speaker 2: everything into the two trash bags and move out of
Speaker 2: your parents' house, here, you were going to lose a lot,
Speaker 2: not just Max, but his family, his friends. His mom
Speaker 2: was going through this very very difficult illness, and you
Speaker 2: feared you were going to lose a family again. And
Speaker 2: I can understand why that was very scary for you
Speaker 2: in that moment. How much were you in touch with
Speaker 2: the fact that I'm trying to get back together because
Speaker 2: I'm afraid of moving on alone versus no, I think
Speaker 2: this relationship can work out.
Speaker 3: At the time, I didn't recognize that. Now that it's
Speaker 3: been a few months since we've ended things, I see
Speaker 3: that it was that. But at the time, I really
Speaker 3: was just trying to hold on to the future that
Speaker 3: I thought that we could have, and hold on to
Speaker 3: whatever relationship we had at that point, because I was
Speaker 3: afraid to be alone because, like you said, I had
Speaker 3: already lost my mind family unit, and it was really scary
Speaker 3: to think about losing another family unit.
Speaker 1: So after the anxiety set in about being alone, what
Speaker 1: happened between you there? How did you actually split?
Speaker 3: We actually lived together for a month after we split
Speaker 3: because our lease was not done yet and we were
Speaker 3: both looking for a place. And I kind of attribute
Speaker 3: that time as a really big blessing and a really
Speaker 3: big curse because we were able to talk about a
Speaker 3: lot of things that we had never talked about in
Speaker 3: the relationship. I got to bring up a lot of
Speaker 3: things that I felt frustrated by a lot of hurt
Speaker 3: that I had felt in the relationship. I got to
Speaker 3: bring up mostly because I was really upset during that time.
Speaker 1: And even though you were talking a lot during that time,
Speaker 1: he still never was able to articulate how he came
Speaker 1: to the realization that he wasn't happy in the relationship. No,
Speaker 1: did you directly ask him?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: I would ask him if there was somebody else and
Speaker 3: he would say no. I would ask him if it
Speaker 3: was because of the way I looked, and he said no.
Speaker 3: I asked him if it was because I smoked marijuana.
Speaker 3: He said no. And well, Doug, you're.
Speaker 1: Sort of playing twenty questions as opposed to saying, can
Speaker 1: you tell me why you're unhappy in the relationship? Did
Speaker 1: you ever ask him that question?
Speaker 3: No? I don't think I directly asked him in that way.
Speaker 2: No.
Speaker 1: Do you have an idea of why you didn't ask him.
Speaker 3: Maybe I was afraid for him to tell me that
Speaker 3: it wasn't anything to do with me, that maybe it
Speaker 3: was just because we were incompatible.
Speaker 1: Was that similar to what happened in your family, where
Speaker 1: there was this thing that people just knew but nobody
Speaker 1: wanted to say directly.
Speaker 3: I think my siblings knew. They didn't really seem surprised
Speaker 3: when I came out to them. My parents seemed very surprised,
Speaker 3: but I had kept it a secret for so long,
Speaker 3: and I played the part of a straight man that
Speaker 3: went to church and loved God for so long that
Speaker 3: my parents just didn't expect that from me.
Speaker 2: Do you have a thought about why you felt freer
Speaker 2: to bring up a lot of your feelings and frustrations
Speaker 2: in the relationship in that month after the breakup then
Speaker 2: you were before the breakup.
Speaker 3: I think at that point I felt like I had
Speaker 3: nothing to lose. He clearly didn't want to be with me,
Speaker 3: and I wanted him to know how much he hurt me.
Speaker 1: Was he responsive to the things that you said. Did
Speaker 1: he have an understanding or compassion that maybe he didn't
Speaker 1: have in the relationship.
Speaker 3: I think so. I think he really realized how deep
Speaker 3: it went. I don't think he really understood that throughout
Speaker 3: the relationship, but he definitely apologized for the things that
Speaker 3: he said and did and I really relationship, and I
Speaker 3: know he meant it. I know that he really, he
Speaker 3: really did feel bad.
Speaker 1: When guy was asking why it was easier to talk
Speaker 1: about this after the relationship had ended, and you said
Speaker 1: you had nothing to lose. What would have happened. Did
Speaker 1: you imagine if you had told him at the time
Speaker 1: when he made a remark that hurt you, to tell him, hey,
Speaker 1: that really hurt me. What do you think his response
Speaker 1: would have been.
Speaker 3: When we first started dating and his OCD really started
Speaker 3: to come through, a lot of his OCD was about
Speaker 3: finding other men more attractive than me and wondering if
Speaker 3: that meant he was cheating. And on several occasions I
Speaker 3: brought up how much it hurt me because I felt
Speaker 3: like he didn't find me attractive. And when I would
Speaker 3: bring up something like that, he would apologize over and
Speaker 3: over and over again and feel bad. And then when
Speaker 3: it would happen again and I would say that hurts me,
Speaker 3: that makes me feel insecure, than he would apologize again
Speaker 3: over and over and so it got to the point
Speaker 3: where I was like, well, I'm just not going to
Speaker 3: say anything because he's not listening to what I'm saying.
Speaker 3: It just triggers his OCD.
Speaker 1: More so, what was different after you broke up because
Speaker 1: he still had OCD? What was more satisfying about his
Speaker 1: response after you broke up that you weren't getting when
Speaker 1: you brought it up during the relationship.
Speaker 3: I think it seems like he understood it more so.
Speaker 3: For example, with me feeling unattractive, I would work out
Speaker 3: two times a day, I would count my calories, and
Speaker 3: he never knew that. I felt much more free to
Speaker 3: say those things after we had broken up. I think
Speaker 3: because of that, it made more sense to him, and
Speaker 3: I think he could really see a bigger picture than
Speaker 3: just those moments.
Speaker 2: To me, it seems clear that the difference in how
Speaker 2: he responded after you had broken up was due significantly
Speaker 2: to the fact that you brought things up in a
Speaker 2: different way, that you were not holding back to you like,
Speaker 2: I'm just going to talk about how I feel. I'm
Speaker 2: not going to hold back. I'm not going to worry
Speaker 2: that this might break something because it's already broken. And
Speaker 2: that evoked a different response. Are you clear that it
Speaker 2: was you speaking your truth about how you feel that
Speaker 2: garnered the better response, as opposed to him being in
Speaker 2: a different place.
Speaker 3: I definitely understand that now, and that's something that I've
Speaker 3: been working on through therapy. I think I'm trying to
Speaker 3: learn how to be more vocal and say my needs
Speaker 3: and my feelings, but it is still difficult.
Speaker 1: For me to do. So you broke up several months ago,
Speaker 1: and what is your contact like now with Max? And
Speaker 1: tell us also when and how you met your new boyfriend. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so Max and I still have contact. We had
Speaker 3: a dog together, so I will take the dog. We
Speaker 3: see each other. It is very cordial. I still talk
Speaker 3: with his mom and his sister regularly. It feels good
Speaker 3: to be on good terms with him. And I met
Speaker 3: my current boyfriend, Lucas through a mutual friend, and he
Speaker 3: is amazing. I feel like he gives me everything that
Speaker 3: I need out of a relationship. He gives me support,
Speaker 3: he gives me a listening ear. It feels very balanced
Speaker 3: in the relationship. When I'm feeling anxious, he's there to
Speaker 3: support me. When he has things that he's going through,
Speaker 3: I can be there for him. I didn't realize how
Speaker 3: easy a relationship could be. I feel like I can
Speaker 3: be much more open and honest with Lucas, and I
Speaker 3: feel like I have been. There are definitely times when
Speaker 3: I get in my head or I don't feel comfortable
Speaker 3: being super open about how I'm feeling. He'll ask me,
Speaker 3: and I think that's kind of where I struggle is.
Speaker 3: He'll ask me, and I'll say everything's fine, and he'll
Speaker 3: ask me again, and I can feel myself getting angry
Speaker 3: even though he's not doing it because he is OCD.
Speaker 3: I think I still have those thoughts where if somebody
Speaker 3: asked me the same question a couple of times, I
Speaker 3: just tense up. I think, after five and a half
Speaker 3: years of going through that.
Speaker 2: Are you able to in those moments, even if you're
Speaker 2: getting annoyed, but tell him how you feel, or if
Speaker 2: you're preoccupied at you're distant, be able to share with
Speaker 2: him where you're aunt emotionally in that moment.
Speaker 3: We have talked about that a couple of times, and
Speaker 3: I've kind of shared my story with Max and how
Speaker 3: that went, so he understands where I'm coming from, and
Speaker 3: we're able to get to the point now where I
Speaker 3: can say I'm really anxious, I can't talk about it
Speaker 3: right now, you can talk about it later, and we
Speaker 3: do when I'm a little bit more calm or in
Speaker 3: a better mind space that does work out really well
Speaker 3: for us in this new relationship.
Speaker 1: What makes you anxious?
Speaker 3: It's not necessarily anything with the relationship per se. Could
Speaker 3: just be work, it could be things with my family,
Speaker 3: it could be just the state of the world. And
Speaker 3: I think it's really hard for me to open up
Speaker 3: to him in certain ways about certain things because every
Speaker 3: time in the past that I've opened up about my feelings,
Speaker 3: it's either been met with rejection like my family, or
Speaker 3: met with OCD with Max. So it's really hard for
Speaker 3: me to trust that I can have a safe person
Speaker 3: to open up to.
Speaker 2: Each of those things are all good. Further, for a
Speaker 2: conversation with a partner to say, you know, I'm just
Speaker 2: thinking about, well, I'm a little anxious about something. Let
Speaker 2: me tell you what's going on. Why not share that
Speaker 2: with him? Because as part of your pattern is I'm
Speaker 2: afraid to share enough about what I feel because in
Speaker 2: the past people haven't handled that well. I've told my
Speaker 2: parents about who I am, and I've gotten OCD responses
Speaker 2: from Max. But part of you recognizes that it's an
Speaker 2: important thing to be able to do. Why not actually
Speaker 2: just tell them what the thing is that you're anxious about.
Speaker 2: That's when you would most benefit perhaps from that support
Speaker 2: and conversation. Why have to be unanxious before you can
Speaker 2: talk to him about what you're anxious about.
Speaker 3: I just don't want to be a burden on anyone,
Speaker 3: Like my family, for instance, they are worried about me
Speaker 3: and going to heaven or my future, and I just
Speaker 3: always feel like when I do open up to people
Speaker 3: and when I'm honest with them, that I'm just being
Speaker 3: a burden to them.
Speaker 1: I can see how in your mind you felt like
Speaker 1: you were a burden to your parents because they were
Speaker 1: going to have to quote unquote deal with the fact
Speaker 1: that this was going to affect their lives, the lives
Speaker 1: of their community, etc. Even though, of course being who
Speaker 1: you are is not a burden. And so I think
Speaker 1: Max was very convenient for you because you couldn't possibly
Speaker 1: be a burden to someone who has OCD. That takes
Speaker 1: up all the space in the relationship. There's no room
Speaker 1: for you in the relationship. So in some ways you
Speaker 1: really resented it, but in other ways it was incredibly
Speaker 1: safe for you because you couldn't possibly bring your own
Speaker 1: stuff into that relationship with all that was going on.
Speaker 1: You could have, you chose not to, we should say,
Speaker 1: because at the end you did, and here you are
Speaker 1: with Lucas, who is giving you all of that space,
Speaker 1: and on the one hand, you really crave that, and
Speaker 1: on the other hand, you're so comfortable with it because
Speaker 1: you're so afraid that if I share the truth of
Speaker 1: who I am, I will somehow disappoint, burden offend, be
Speaker 1: too much.
Speaker 3: That's exactly it. I think I'm afraid sometimes to share
Speaker 3: how I feel with Lucas because with Max, he broke
Speaker 3: up with me out of the blue and I had
Speaker 3: no idea how he was feeling. And so I think
Speaker 3: that even amplifies that with Lucas, because I'm afraid that
Speaker 3: I'm going to say something wrong or that I'm going
Speaker 3: to be too much for him, and he's not going
Speaker 3: to want to take on that burden of me and
Speaker 3: maybe my problems.
Speaker 1: I tend to think that the burden for Max in
Speaker 1: your relationship was that you didn't bring things up, and
Speaker 1: I think that it became a burden because it became
Speaker 1: all about him. And on the one hand, I think
Speaker 1: that he wanted to have somebody who was very supportive
Speaker 1: of what he was going through with the OCD. But
Speaker 1: on the other hand, I think there was also a
Speaker 1: part of him that wanted you to show up in
Speaker 1: the relationship, so it wasn't all about him, and the
Speaker 1: two of you never had the tools to discuss things
Speaker 1: in that way. But you have an opportunity now to
Speaker 1: see that relationships thrive when both people are fully present
Speaker 1: and it's not about one person or the other.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's very true. I think in my
Speaker 3: mind I was supporting Max by being patient or listening
Speaker 3: or being there for him in those moments, but I
Speaker 3: never really gave him the opportunity to do that for me,
Speaker 3: or when I did, it wasn't fully the truth.
Speaker 1: Maybe right. So you have this idea that if you
Speaker 1: bring things up, the relationship will break, and what I'm
Speaker 1: saying is if you do I won't bring things up,
Speaker 1: the relationship will break.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I never thought about it that way.
Speaker 2: And you said you're not quite sure why Max broke
Speaker 2: up with you, But the reality for Max was that
Speaker 2: his OCD was practically the entire relationship. It did take
Speaker 2: all the air out of the room and there was
Speaker 2: no balance. You mentioned your anxiety and your depression, but
Speaker 2: you mentioned them very fleetingly earlier on when we were
Speaker 2: talking here, and I think that's probably the representation they
Speaker 2: got in the relationship with Max as well. They were known,
Speaker 2: but they weren't really brought up, and so your emotional
Speaker 2: struggles were not there other than your emotional struggles about
Speaker 2: Max's emotional struggles. And so for him, he's in a
Speaker 2: relationship with someone who's managing his issues and keep saying
Speaker 2: to him, this is really hard to manage. Can you
Speaker 2: get more help because this is really really hard for
Speaker 2: me to manage, and he doesn't get more help. But
Speaker 2: then part of why the breakup probably came to him
Speaker 2: most because he didn't have solutions there. He didn't want
Speaker 2: to get more help, and he knew that all he
Speaker 2: was hearing from you was that it's too much, it's
Speaker 2: too much, it's too much. So he just took the
Speaker 2: executive decision then this is just not going to work.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I never thought about it that way.
Speaker 2: That makes a lot of sense, And.
Speaker 1: I think what we don't want to see happen here
Speaker 1: is that there's a role reversal where in the first relationship,
Speaker 1: Max was having all these issues, but he wouldn't really
Speaker 1: deal with it, wouldn't really talk about it, and he
Speaker 1: just brought his symptoms, but he wouldn't really talk about
Speaker 1: what was underneath it. And we don't want to see
Speaker 1: that happen with Lucas, where Lucas is coming to you
Speaker 1: and saying, Hey, what's going on? Talk to me and
Speaker 1: you're not really talking about what's happening and what you're
Speaker 1: doing to help manage it. You can share, hey, I'm
Speaker 1: working on this in therapy. You don't have to tell
Speaker 1: them all the details, but to really be present and
Speaker 1: not feel like, well, if I tell him, it's going
Speaker 1: to burden him and that's just going to push him away.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I appreciate when he can be vulnerable and tell
Speaker 3: me what he's going through because he's able to talk
Speaker 3: about it so freely, and I really admire that. And
Speaker 3: he's given me no reason why I think that he
Speaker 3: wouldn't be willing to do that for me as well.
Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit more about what
Speaker 1: I'm going to call intrusive thoughts since that's what Max had,
Speaker 1: The intrusive thoughts that you have when you're with Lucas
Speaker 1: that get in the way of you being in this
Speaker 1: relationship in a comfortable way.
Speaker 3: There have been times with Lucas that he will ask
Speaker 3: me how I'm doing, and I'll get instantly annoyed, or
Speaker 3: maybe he's a little too much in my face and
Speaker 3: I just don't know how to react, and so my
Speaker 3: instant thought is to be like, this isn't going to
Speaker 3: work or I can't handle this.
Speaker 2: What's an example of him being in your face?
Speaker 3: It's literally just leaning in for a kiss or being
Speaker 3: close close proximity to my face, Like it's not it's
Speaker 3: not or anything aggressive or anything like that.
Speaker 2: Oh, it's nice in your face, not the bad in
Speaker 2: your face.
Speaker 1: Right, So all of this sounds like you're trying to
Speaker 1: protect your own space. But in your letter you talk
Speaker 1: about I'm worried that the other shoe's going to drop,
Speaker 1: that he's going to leave me. So I think you're
Speaker 1: doing all these things to protect yourself, like, oh, that's
Speaker 1: too close, that really nice gesture coming over to kiss me,
Speaker 1: that that normally would feel really good, feels a little
Speaker 1: scary because you don't want to get too close or
Speaker 1: too invested, because you wrote in your letter, I'm always
Speaker 1: worried that something will go wrong. So can you talk
Speaker 1: more about that, because I think that's what this is
Speaker 1: really about.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's very true. I think I'm afraid
Speaker 3: to get too close because I don't want to get
Speaker 3: hurt again. I'm afraid to show Ucas the deeper parts
Speaker 3: of me because I'm afraid that it's going to be
Speaker 3: met with rejection. I even had a dream last night
Speaker 3: that Lucas broke up with me, and I was really
Speaker 3: upset and sad about it, and I reached out to
Speaker 3: him today and told him about it, and he said,
Speaker 3: I love you so much. I wouldn't do that. But
Speaker 3: I think those are just fears that are just there
Speaker 3: because of being blindsided by Max after such a tumultuous relationship.
Speaker 1: I think those fears are there because of being blindsided
Speaker 1: by your parents. And I think that there was a
Speaker 1: way that MAX worked very well for you because it
Speaker 1: kept you so safe to always be in the position
Speaker 1: of you are not making me happy, I might break
Speaker 1: up with you, which gives you power and keeps you
Speaker 1: from being in that vulnerable position of you might not
Speaker 1: want to stay with me. How could you not want
Speaker 1: to stay with me if I put up with all
Speaker 1: of your OCD day in and day out for five
Speaker 1: and a half years, not realizing that that doesn't work
Speaker 1: for either person. And so as you think about this
Speaker 1: abandonment fear that permeates your relationship with Lucas to the
Speaker 1: point that you're dreaming of him breaking up with you,
Speaker 1: it sounds like getting in touch with some of those
Speaker 1: feelings that maybe you haven't expressed fully about what it
Speaker 1: was like to pack up those two trash bags and
Speaker 1: leave your house might be really helpful now that you're
Speaker 1: in a more balanced relationship.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do want to add one thing. There was
Speaker 2: the moment where your parents rejected you and kicked you
Speaker 2: out of the house, and there were the thousands of
Speaker 2: moments before you told them that you worried that they might.
Speaker 2: So that's why that's so impactful. Opened once, But do
Speaker 2: you worry that it would for probably many years before
Speaker 2: it actually did, and then it did, and that it's
Speaker 2: going to leave a mark.
Speaker 1: And there's a way when we talk about OCD that
Speaker 1: when we imagine the horrible thing happening, it almost protects us.
Speaker 1: If I can imagine Lucas breaking up with me, even
Speaker 1: though it feels bad, at least I'm prepared in my mind.
Speaker 1: If I don't get too close to him at least
Speaker 1: it won't be so bad. So there's almost like an
Speaker 1: OCD like process going on with you where you're doing
Speaker 1: everything you can to protect yourself against what you see
Speaker 1: is almost inevitable.
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1: What is your relationship like with Max's family? Now? You
Speaker 1: said you're still in touch with them?
Speaker 3: Yeah. I am really close with his sister. I consider
Speaker 3: her my sister. Still. We visit together pretty frequently, and
Speaker 3: I still talk to his mom pretty regularly and just
Speaker 3: check in see how she's doing. They all still consider
Speaker 3: me a part of their family, and I still consider
Speaker 3: them my family.
Speaker 1: So the catastrophe didn't happen.
Speaker 2: No, I did not.
Speaker 1: You thought that if you broke up you would lose
Speaker 1: this entire family, And you have a cordial relationship with
Speaker 1: Max and you still have this lovely relationship with his
Speaker 1: family and you see the dog right.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: What about Lucas's family? What is your relationship like with them?
Speaker 3: He has a pretty similar experience as me coming out
Speaker 3: to his family, so he is not super close with
Speaker 3: his parents and one of his brothers. I have met
Speaker 3: his other brother and his in law and they're wonderful.
Speaker 3: They're really sweet.
Speaker 1: What has happened in the relationship with your family since
Speaker 1: you started dating Lucas.
Speaker 3: I still haven't told my family that I'm dating Lucas.
Speaker 3: I think because I am enjoying my relationship with Lucas
Speaker 3: and I feel like bringing it up to my family
Speaker 3: will sort of tint that in a way. And I
Speaker 3: feel like my family and I's kind of in a
Speaker 3: better place right now because they think that I'm single,
Speaker 3: and so in a weird way, we're able to kind
Speaker 3: of talk without worrying about another partner that I might have.
Speaker 1: So being single makes you less gay?
Speaker 3: Well, my dad did ask me recently, where are you
Speaker 3: with the whole gay thing. I said, I'm not really
Speaker 3: sure what you're asking. I'm still gay if that's what
Speaker 3: you're at. And he said, so you really don't think
Speaker 3: that it's a choice, And I said, no, it's definitely
Speaker 3: not a choice. And that was kind of the end
Speaker 3: of the conversation. But that's how it's always been, is
Speaker 3: every time they would bring it up to me, it
Speaker 3: was very this is really what you're choosing, This is
Speaker 3: against what God wants, and this is not what we
Speaker 3: want for you in your future.
Speaker 2: It remains hurtful that they have to keep telling you
Speaker 2: in a consistent, practically OCD way. Let us know when
Speaker 2: you're done with being gay, and you know that it's
Speaker 2: still not okay with us, and it's still not okay
Speaker 2: with our God and all of those things. I mean,
Speaker 2: it's very unfortunate if it keeps coming up.
Speaker 3: I feel bad not telling my family about Lucas because
Speaker 3: he is such a great person. But they're not going
Speaker 3: to see him the way that I see him. They're
Speaker 3: not going to see him as a great person. They're
Speaker 3: not going to see him as somebody who makes me happy.
Speaker 3: They're going to see him as somebody that's taking me
Speaker 3: away from my path to righteousness or God.
Speaker 1: I think that the ways in which you have to
Speaker 1: protect yourself from the hurt from your parents bleeds into
Speaker 1: the way you feel like you have to protect yourself
Speaker 1: from Lucas, And sometimes you conflate the two. You're holding
Speaker 1: back with your parents because they will say hurtful things,
Speaker 1: but you're holding back with Lucas because you're afraid that
Speaker 1: he is also going to reject you, and we want
Speaker 1: to make sure that doesn't happen. We have some advice
Speaker 1: we'd like to give you. We've been thinking about your
Speaker 1: situation and we've been seeing a lot of parallels between
Speaker 1: the relationship with Max and the relationship with Lucas, but
Speaker 1: with the roles a little bit reversed. And so what
Speaker 1: we'd like you to do is we'd like you to
Speaker 1: have a conversation with Lucas where you say to him
Speaker 1: that even though I've told you a lot about my
Speaker 1: relationship with Max and how much I had to take
Speaker 1: care of him, I think in some ways it was
Speaker 1: very convenient for me because I didn't really have to
Speaker 1: deal with my own anxieties about rejection and love. And
Speaker 1: I don't want to become the Max to you in
Speaker 1: our relationship. And there might be times when you come
Speaker 1: close to me and even though I really really want that,
Speaker 1: I get a little bit scared and you might feel
Speaker 1: a little bit rejected by me. And if that happens,
Speaker 1: please let me know, because I don't want you to
Speaker 1: feel that I am not wanting all of this delicious
Speaker 1: love that you were bringing to me. And so you're
Speaker 1: just opening the door for him to have a dialogue
Speaker 1: about that. When he perceives that, because he will, he'll
Speaker 1: notice it, and then we want you to do something
Speaker 1: about it. And in your relationship with Max, you said
Speaker 1: the reason that he didn't want to go to therapy
Speaker 1: was because a lot of the treatment for OCD involves
Speaker 1: exposure to the very thing that makes the person anxious.
Speaker 1: We want you to do a little bit of exposure
Speaker 1: therapy here, and what we mean by that is when
Speaker 1: Lucas comes toward you and you feel a little bit overwhelmed,
Speaker 1: it comes to kiss you and you feel like, uh, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm feeling a little vulnerable here. Instead of moving away
Speaker 1: from that, we want you to move toward that, but
Speaker 1: we want you to do it in a specific way.
Speaker 2: I don't know how much you know about exposure therapy,
Speaker 2: but typically, let's say, if somebody is trying to get
Speaker 2: over a fear of snakes and into the snake pit
Speaker 2: they go, and it's like, ah, snakes, but it's all
Speaker 2: very very passive. You know, they're just sitting there with
Speaker 2: snakes doing what snakes do. And the thing about anxiety
Speaker 2: is that we feel better when we're in control. So
Speaker 2: we want you, as part of your exposure therapy, to
Speaker 2: lean in to the love when it makes you a
Speaker 2: little anxious, but to do it in a way in
Speaker 2: which you have control, which with Lucas would look like
Speaker 2: he gets into your face, that you actually sit up
Speaker 2: taller or stand taller. You put your hands on his shoulders.
Speaker 2: You control the closeness. You bring him in to you
Speaker 2: for the embrace, you bring him into you for the kiss.
Speaker 2: So you do the exposure therapy to yourself, but in
Speaker 2: a way that you actually have control, which makes it
Speaker 2: easier to tolerate. And each time he comes into your
Speaker 2: space after that conversation and you feel yourself having an
Speaker 2: anxious reaction or feeling flooded or overwhelmed, you lean in
Speaker 2: to the love and it's exposure therapy. It's going to
Speaker 2: be hard, but the more you do it, the quicker
Speaker 2: the anxiety associated with it goes down.
Speaker 1: And what happens is the more you're exposed to it
Speaker 1: catastrophic happens, the more you can relax when it happens again.
Speaker 2: There is one more piece. You were thinking about your
Speaker 2: parents and your relationship with them. You wrote them the
Speaker 2: letter initially, and we understand why it was hard to
Speaker 2: get a word in. You Mum would quote scripture. You
Speaker 2: know it would be a difficult conversation to have. So
Speaker 2: let's just get all my feelings out in an email.
Speaker 2: We think that might be a good approach this time
Speaker 2: as well, but we think there needs to be something
Speaker 2: communicated about. Look, I'm in fact as offended by your
Speaker 2: views religiously as you are by mine, because in my
Speaker 2: religious views, in my philosophy, parenting is a virtue that
Speaker 2: should surpass all and so is unconditional love. And I
Speaker 2: am not interested in hearing anymore that you think I'm
Speaker 2: going to go to tell that you think who I
Speaker 2: am is wrong. I am not interested in hearing it.
Speaker 2: And if we're to have a relationship, it has to
Speaker 2: be one that starts at the basic respect of who
Speaker 2: I am as a person. And I know you might
Speaker 2: have different feelings about it, have them, I do not
Speaker 2: want to hear them. And one day I'm going to
Speaker 2: find love again and I'm going to get married, and
Speaker 2: you are my family. I will invite you to that wedding,
Speaker 2: and if you want to have a relationship with me,
Speaker 2: you should come to it, because that's what loving families do.
Speaker 2: They put their differences aside to celebrate the happiness of
Speaker 2: one another. And that's what I'm going to expect. But
Speaker 2: going forward, I do not want to hear from any
Speaker 2: of you that you have judgment about who I am
Speaker 2: as a person.
Speaker 1: And this is going to go to your entire family,
Speaker 1: including your siblings. I'm thinking about your sister who wasn't
Speaker 1: going to come to your wedding. It's for all of them,
Speaker 1: and what we'd like you to do is not have
Speaker 1: expectations around how they respond, but we'd like you to
Speaker 1: think about what it feels like to be able to
Speaker 1: say that so directly to them. You're not asking them
Speaker 1: to change who they are, but you're asking them not
Speaker 1: to say to you, change who you are. And that's
Speaker 1: a starting point. And so what you're asking for is reciprocity,
Speaker 1: which you didn't have with Max because you didn't ask
Speaker 1: for it, and we'd like you to ask for it
Speaker 1: this time.
Speaker 3: Yes, you're very right.
Speaker 1: I think when he was with Max, he found a
Speaker 1: relationship that would make him feel safe because you wouldn't
Speaker 1: have to deal with his own issues that he was
Speaker 1: bringing into it, but it wasn't necessarily satisfying. And now
Speaker 1: with Lucas, he's in a relationship that could be satisfying,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't necessarily feel safe because he's going to
Speaker 1: have to manage some of this abandonment. And I think
Speaker 1: it's going to go really well with Lucas. This week,
Speaker 1: Lucas sounds like somebody who's really able to offer him
Speaker 1: something that he didn't have with his parents and didn't
Speaker 1: have with Max in the same way, and I think
Speaker 1: it's going to be tricky with his family.
Speaker 2: I think it's going to go well with Lucas in
Speaker 2: the sense that he will do it and Lucas will
Speaker 2: respond well. I think though, that he's still going to
Speaker 2: feel anxious, because the idea of doing that is you
Speaker 2: keep doing it to beat down the anxiety. But at
Speaker 2: first the anxiety will be there, so he'll be doing
Speaker 2: the right thing and it won't feel like he's doing
Speaker 2: the right thing. So I just hope he can keep
Speaker 2: at it despite that, because that's how it is. At
Speaker 2: the beginning. You're doing the thing you need, but your
Speaker 2: insights are telling you it's not, because that's what you've
Speaker 2: been avoiding.
Speaker 1: And that's why we tell people do the up. Normally
Speaker 1: we say listen to your gut, do what your gut says,
Speaker 1: and when somebody is in this situation, we say your
Speaker 1: gut is lying to you. Do the opposite.
Speaker 2: I actually say, much more, your gut is lying to
Speaker 2: you than I do. Follow your gut. I don't say
Speaker 2: for follow your gut a lot. I always say like no, no,
Speaker 2: don't listen to that. I think with his parents it's
Speaker 2: going to be much more problematic because I think they're
Speaker 2: going to have a hard time hearing it. I think
Speaker 2: they feel righteous and they feel that the perspective is
Speaker 2: correct and his is incorrect in every possible way. And
Speaker 2: I hope he can stand up and fight for what
Speaker 2: he deserves.
Speaker 1: Either way, I think this is going to be a
Speaker 1: good experience for him. You're listening to Dear Therapists for
Speaker 1: my Heart Radio. We'll be back after a short break.
Speaker 2: So we heard back from Doug and we asked him
Speaker 2: to do a couple of things, both of which involved
Speaker 2: him taking control. So let's see how that went for him.
Speaker 3: Hey, Laurie and Guy. So I've been working on opening
Speaker 3: up and leaning into the love that Lucas has been
Speaker 3: showing me. We had a really open and honest conversation
Speaker 3: about how I can feel overwhelmed at times when he
Speaker 3: comes too close because I'm afraid of being too intimate
Speaker 3: and vulnerable with him. We talked about my family and
Speaker 3: I got to share with him how rejected I felt
Speaker 3: by them and how I was carrying a lot of
Speaker 3: those fears and anxiety into our relationship. I was really
Speaker 3: nervous to have this conversation, but Lucas listened and was
Speaker 3: so supportive and understanding. I've also been working on the
Speaker 3: exposure piece and taking control in times when I'm feeling anxious.
Speaker 3: One time, after having this conversation, he noticed me pull
Speaker 3: away and asked if I was feeling overwhelmed. Normally I
Speaker 3: would have brushed those feelings aside and said I was fine,
Speaker 3: But this time I told him how it was feeling,
Speaker 3: and it felt so good to voice that. After opening
Speaker 3: up to Lucas Moore and feeling how supportive and loving
Speaker 3: he was, through that, I felt so much closer with him.
Speaker 3: He was also able to be there for me as
Speaker 3: I worked on the second part of my assignment, writing
Speaker 3: a letter to my family. This part was really difficult
Speaker 3: for me, and I put it off as long as
Speaker 3: I could. I had a really hard time being vulnerable
Speaker 3: with them and sharing how their words and actions hurt
Speaker 3: me again. My gut reaction was to avoid the confrontation
Speaker 3: and potential rejection, but I really want things to change.
Speaker 3: I started off by saying that I appreciated our relationship
Speaker 3: and that it has gotten better over the years, and
Speaker 3: that I wanted to continue building on that, but that
Speaker 3: I also wanted to set some boundaries. I told them
Speaker 3: I no longer wanted to hear their judgment about who
Speaker 3: I am as a person, and that I'm not interested
Speaker 3: in hearing any more disrespectful and invalidating questions or comments
Speaker 3: to them. That I don't just want to be tolerated.
Speaker 3: I want to be loved fully for who I am,
Speaker 3: all the parts of me. I felt incredibly scared to
Speaker 3: hit that send button, and my anxiety was literally through
Speaker 3: the roof. After I sent it, Lucas gave me a
Speaker 3: big hug, a kiss on the cheek, and told me
Speaker 3: how proud he was of me. It did feel like
Speaker 3: a huge weight had been lifted off my shoulders, and
Speaker 3: it also felt really good to not be alone in
Speaker 3: that moment. I haven't heard back from anyone yet, and
Speaker 3: even though I'm still really worried about what they'll say
Speaker 3: and how they'll respond, I'm hopeful that this will be
Speaker 3: the next step in having a healthier relationship with my family.
Speaker 3: I know moving forward, it's still going to be a
Speaker 3: difficult journey for me to get to a place where
Speaker 3: I feel more comfortable being vulnerable, but I am committed
Speaker 3: to doing this work. Thank you again, I appreciate you both.
Speaker 1: What Doug has come to realize through doing these exercizes
Speaker 1: is what so many of our patients in therapy come
Speaker 1: to realize, which is that when you try to protect
Speaker 1: yourself using a method that worked when you were younger,
Speaker 1: it generally doesn't work when you're older and you have agency.
Speaker 1: And so when he started talking to Lucas about feeling
Speaker 1: overwhelmed what happens when he becomes vulnerable, he thought the
Speaker 1: world would crash down, and you know, Lucas would get
Speaker 1: rid of him, because that's what happened in his family.
Speaker 1: You can't talk about these things. But instead Lucas came closer,
Speaker 1: and not only did he come closer, but he ended
Speaker 1: up supporting him both in their relationship but also in
Speaker 1: what he wanted to say to his family. So it
Speaker 1: was really a lesson in what happens when we can
Speaker 1: separate out how we protect ourselves as children and how
Speaker 1: that doesn't really protect us but actually holds us back
Speaker 1: as adults.
Speaker 2: I completely agree, and I think that the fear hand
Speaker 2: about sending the email to his family was that he
Speaker 2: knew that if they responded poorly, he would have to
Speaker 2: draw a line. And I think that the anxiety was
Speaker 2: because he knew that he had signed up for that,
Speaker 2: and I believe he will if they respond poorly, and
Speaker 2: I think they're likely to respond poorly from what I've
Speaker 2: heard so far, So I really hope if he's listening,
Speaker 2: he has Lucas around him when he needs to maintain
Speaker 2: that boundary, and that he does so with the same
Speaker 2: conviction with which he sent the email and with which
Speaker 2: he meant every word that he wrote.
Speaker 1: I think the reason that he was ready now to
Speaker 1: send that letter with that boundary is that as he
Speaker 1: becomes more truthful with himself and with the relationships in
Speaker 1: his life, it's hard to not be truthful with these
Speaker 1: other relationships in his family, and he's ready to ask
Speaker 1: for that, And he has the support of someone who
Speaker 1: really sees the truth of who he is and is
Speaker 1: there for him. And I think that makes a big difference,
Speaker 1: so that no matter what his family does with that letter,
Speaker 1: he can feel good that he sent it. Hey, fellow travelers,
Speaker 1: if you're enjoying our podcast each week. Don't forget to
Speaker 1: subscribe for free so that you don't miss any episodes,
Speaker 1: and please help support Dear Therapists by telling your friends
Speaker 1: about it and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. Your
Speaker 1: reviews really help people to find the show.
Speaker 4: And thanks to your reviews and support, we'll be back
Speaker 4: next year with an all new season of Dear Therapist
Speaker 4: Sessions that we can't wait to bring you now. While
Speaker 4: we're off taping, don't forget to catch up on all
Speaker 4: of the season one and season two episodes you missed
Speaker 4: or want to hear again.
Speaker 1: And if you'd like to apply to be in session
Speaker 1: with us on season three, just send us an email
Speaker 1: to Lorian Guy at iHeartMedia dot com. That's l Ori A. N. D.
Speaker 1: G u Y at iHeartMedia dot com. You can also
Speaker 1: find our email in the show notes.
Speaker 2: See you back in Session soon.
Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited
Speaker 1: by Mike Johns, Josh Fisher, and Chris Childs. Our interns
Speaker 1: are Dorit Corwin and Silver Lifton. Special thanks to Alison
Speaker 1: Wright and to our podcast Fairy Godmother Katie Couric.
Speaker 2: Deotherapist is a production of iHeartRadio,