1
00:01:09,359 --> 00:01:12,439
Speaker 1: Hey to your Therapist listeners. It's Lori and Guy and

2
00:01:12,479 --> 00:01:13,599
Speaker 1: we have a quick update.

3
00:01:13,839 --> 00:01:16,039
Speaker 2: Many of you have told us that you get something

4
00:01:16,079 --> 00:01:18,439
Speaker 2: new out of each episode when you listen to it

5
00:01:18,479 --> 00:01:21,719
Speaker 2: again the second or third time. In fact, when we

6
00:01:21,839 --> 00:01:24,799
Speaker 2: listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we

7
00:01:24,799 --> 00:01:25,439
Speaker 2: didn't remember.

8
00:01:25,439 --> 00:01:28,079
Speaker 1: We're They're therapy is like that too. There are so

9
00:01:28,199 --> 00:01:30,839
Speaker 1: many learning moments in a session, and it's difficult to

10
00:01:30,919 --> 00:01:33,439
Speaker 1: absorb them all at once. So while we're not taping

11
00:01:33,559 --> 00:01:37,039
Speaker 1: new episodes right now, we are offering you our most

12
00:01:37,079 --> 00:01:40,399
Speaker 1: popular sessions as encores so that you can continue to

13
00:01:40,439 --> 00:01:41,519
Speaker 1: gain value from them.

14
00:01:41,759 --> 00:01:45,319
Speaker 2: We love doing the Therapists episodes, but we're each busy

15
00:01:45,359 --> 00:01:48,599
Speaker 2: with new and exciting projects that we hope you will love.

16
00:01:48,639 --> 00:01:49,239
Speaker 3: Just as much.

17
00:01:49,479 --> 00:01:52,679
Speaker 1: I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked,

18
00:01:52,799 --> 00:01:55,159
Speaker 1: which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts.

19
00:01:55,359 --> 00:01:58,159
Speaker 2: And I have a new book coming out. It's called

20
00:01:58,559 --> 00:02:03,559
Speaker 2: Mind Overgrind, How to Break Free when work Hijacks your life,

21
00:02:03,759 --> 00:02:06,519
Speaker 2: and it will be published by Simon and Schuster. You

22
00:02:06,559 --> 00:02:08,759
Speaker 2: can find out more about it on my website.

23
00:02:10,319 --> 00:02:13,519
Speaker 1: You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile,

24
00:02:13,719 --> 00:02:16,639
Speaker 1: we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable

25
00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:23,119
Speaker 1: as we have making them for you. Hey, fellow travelers,

26
00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:26,439
Speaker 1: I'm Lari Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should

27
00:02:26,479 --> 00:02:29,239
Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice

28
00:02:29,279 --> 00:02:30,359
Speaker 1: column for The Atlantic.

29
00:02:30,599 --> 00:02:33,879
Speaker 3: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,

30
00:02:34,239 --> 00:02:36,719
Speaker 3: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for TED.

31
00:02:37,119 --> 00:02:39,079
Speaker 3: And this is Dear Therapists.

32
00:02:39,999 --> 00:02:42,759
Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a session so you

33
00:02:42,759 --> 00:02:45,159
Speaker 1: can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help

34
00:02:45,239 --> 00:02:48,199
Speaker 1: other people come to understand themselves better and make changes

35
00:02:48,199 --> 00:02:48,919
Speaker 1: in their lives.

36
00:02:49,119 --> 00:02:51,799
Speaker 3: So sit back and welcome to today's session.

37
00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:55,399
Speaker 1: This week, our fellow traveler is haunted by the ghost

38
00:02:55,479 --> 00:02:57,999
Speaker 1: of his last relationship as he tries to move on

39
00:02:58,119 --> 00:02:58,959
Speaker 1: with a new partner.

40
00:02:59,079 --> 00:03:03,199
Speaker 4: It's really hard for me to open up to him

41
00:03:03,679 --> 00:03:05,879
Speaker 4: because every time in the past I have opened up

42
00:03:05,879 --> 00:03:08,679
Speaker 4: about my feelings, it's either ben me with rejection or

43
00:03:08,679 --> 00:03:10,999
Speaker 4: met with oc So it's really hard for me to

44
00:03:11,119 --> 00:03:14,279
Speaker 4: trust that I can have a safe person to open

45
00:03:14,359 --> 00:03:15,359
Speaker 4: up to first.

46
00:03:15,359 --> 00:03:18,519
Speaker 3: A quick note deo therapist is for informational purposes only,

47
00:03:18,679 --> 00:03:21,879
Speaker 3: does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and is not

48
00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:25,999
Speaker 3: a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always

49
00:03:26,039 --> 00:03:28,999
Speaker 3: seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional, or

50
00:03:29,039 --> 00:03:31,719
Speaker 3: other qualified health provider with any questions you may have

51
00:03:31,999 --> 00:03:35,759
Speaker 3: regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,

52
00:03:35,799 --> 00:03:38,399
Speaker 3: you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part

53
00:03:38,479 --> 00:03:40,239
Speaker 3: or in full, and we may edit it for length

54
00:03:40,279 --> 00:03:42,759
Speaker 3: and clarity and the sessions you'll hear. All names have

55
00:03:42,799 --> 00:03:49,079
Speaker 3: been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers. Hi Laurie,

56
00:03:49,359 --> 00:03:49,839
Speaker 3: Hi Guy.

57
00:03:50,479 --> 00:03:52,679
Speaker 1: So I think today we're going to talk about relationships.

58
00:03:53,079 --> 00:03:55,319
Speaker 3: We are. We have a letter from someone who's in

59
00:03:55,359 --> 00:03:58,679
Speaker 3: a new relationship but not quite over the old one,

60
00:03:58,879 --> 00:04:02,239
Speaker 3: and it goes like this deo Therapists. Eight months ago,

61
00:04:02,399 --> 00:04:04,399
Speaker 3: I got out of an engagement with my five and

62
00:04:04,399 --> 00:04:06,999
Speaker 3: a half year partner. It had been a long time

63
00:04:07,039 --> 00:04:09,279
Speaker 3: coming and was ultimately better for the both of us.

64
00:04:10,159 --> 00:04:14,439
Speaker 3: My former fiancee suffered from severe clinical OCD. His compulsions

65
00:04:14,559 --> 00:04:18,039
Speaker 3: included excessive repeating of the same question that often centered

66
00:04:18,039 --> 00:04:21,799
Speaker 3: around me or our relationship, For example, asking twenty times

67
00:04:21,799 --> 00:04:23,879
Speaker 3: in a row if it was considered cheating if he

68
00:04:23,959 --> 00:04:27,279
Speaker 3: thought another man was attractive, or apologizing for sighing and

69
00:04:27,319 --> 00:04:29,079
Speaker 3: making sure I knew that he wasn't mad at me.

70
00:04:29,999 --> 00:04:32,079
Speaker 3: I had been having doubts about being in the relationship

71
00:04:32,079 --> 00:04:35,039
Speaker 3: for quite a while. The constant questions drove me to

72
00:04:35,039 --> 00:04:38,319
Speaker 3: the point of almost madness and caused a lot of anxiety,

73
00:04:38,559 --> 00:04:42,359
Speaker 3: self doubt, and insecurities within myself. I felt he never

74
00:04:42,359 --> 00:04:44,599
Speaker 3: supported me or could be present for the things I

75
00:04:44,679 --> 00:04:47,439
Speaker 3: needed because we were too focused on him and his needs.

76
00:04:48,199 --> 00:04:50,439
Speaker 3: In the end, he was the one who ended things

77
00:04:51,039 --> 00:04:53,439
Speaker 3: to me. It was completely out of the blue. I

78
00:04:53,479 --> 00:04:56,479
Speaker 3: had shared my unhappiness with a relationship on multiple occasions.

79
00:04:56,719 --> 00:04:58,919
Speaker 3: He always cried and said he would change, and told

80
00:04:58,919 --> 00:05:00,919
Speaker 3: me how much he wanted to be with me. He

81
00:05:00,999 --> 00:05:03,199
Speaker 3: never once told me he was unhappy or that he

82
00:05:03,239 --> 00:05:05,999
Speaker 3: needed something different from me. I think that was the

83
00:05:06,039 --> 00:05:08,919
Speaker 3: hardest part. After all these years I had supported him,

84
00:05:09,079 --> 00:05:11,079
Speaker 3: it was difficult to accept that he was the one

85
00:05:11,119 --> 00:05:13,999
Speaker 3: who couldn't be with me anymore. I have since entered

86
00:05:14,039 --> 00:05:16,719
Speaker 3: a new and much healthier relationship, and even though I

87
00:05:16,759 --> 00:05:19,159
Speaker 3: have moved on from my ex and don't have feelings

88
00:05:19,199 --> 00:05:22,199
Speaker 3: towards him anymore, it still seems like he occupies a

89
00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:25,119
Speaker 3: lot of my thoughts. I question what it says about

90
00:05:25,119 --> 00:05:26,999
Speaker 3: me that I allowed myself to be in such an

91
00:05:27,079 --> 00:05:30,479
Speaker 3: unhealthy relationship for so long. Can you help me find

92
00:05:30,519 --> 00:05:33,799
Speaker 3: peace and closure with this toxic past. I don't want

93
00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:36,839
Speaker 3: it to affect my current relationship, but sometimes feel so

94
00:05:36,999 --> 00:05:39,879
Speaker 3: stuck in the past, even though my partner loves and

95
00:05:39,919 --> 00:05:42,319
Speaker 3: supports me in the ways I need. I fear it's

96
00:05:42,359 --> 00:05:44,919
Speaker 3: only a matter of time before things go wrong, or

97
00:05:44,999 --> 00:05:48,359
Speaker 3: question if I'm missing signs that it won't work out, Doug.

98
00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:53,439
Speaker 1: This is so common when somebody has a relationship that

99
00:05:53,919 --> 00:05:56,839
Speaker 1: really marked them in a way, even when they move

100
00:05:56,879 --> 00:06:00,599
Speaker 1: on to a much healthier relationship, if they haven't processed

101
00:06:00,639 --> 00:06:03,319
Speaker 1: what happened in the other relationship, meaning it's not just

102
00:06:03,359 --> 00:06:07,239
Speaker 1: that the relationship is over, it's that they processed what

103
00:06:07,479 --> 00:06:12,439
Speaker 1: happened during that time end up feeling like there's something incomplete,

104
00:06:12,479 --> 00:06:15,679
Speaker 1: something unfinished, and they can't truly enjoy the new relationship.

105
00:06:16,079 --> 00:06:18,799
Speaker 3: It's also very common that when you're with somebody who

106
00:06:18,879 --> 00:06:22,919
Speaker 3: has a manifest disorder, whether mental or physical, so much

107
00:06:22,919 --> 00:06:26,239
Speaker 3: attention goes to that disorder that a lot of other

108
00:06:26,319 --> 00:06:30,239
Speaker 3: things get lost. And OCD is very difficult because people

109
00:06:30,239 --> 00:06:33,679
Speaker 3: who have it described that they feel harassed by it,

110
00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:36,799
Speaker 3: but then often their partners can feel harassed by it

111
00:06:37,199 --> 00:06:39,759
Speaker 3: as well, because it can be a very difficult disorder

112
00:06:39,799 --> 00:06:40,239
Speaker 3: to live with.

113
00:06:40,479 --> 00:06:43,919
Speaker 1: And the thing too about the OCD is that it

114
00:06:43,999 --> 00:06:46,039
Speaker 1: took up so much space in the relationship and there

115
00:06:46,079 --> 00:06:49,599
Speaker 1: was so much focus on what the partner was doing

116
00:06:49,759 --> 00:06:52,679
Speaker 1: that was harmful in the relationship. But it takes two

117
00:06:52,959 --> 00:06:54,559
Speaker 1: And there was a question that he asked, which I

118
00:06:54,559 --> 00:06:56,199
Speaker 1: think was a good one that I want to explore

119
00:06:56,199 --> 00:06:58,559
Speaker 1: with him, which was what was his role in this

120
00:06:58,639 --> 00:07:00,599
Speaker 1: relationship and why was he in it for so long?

121
00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:04,079
Speaker 3: I agree, so let's go explore it with him.

122
00:07:04,239 --> 00:07:07,359
Speaker 1: You're listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio. We'll

123
00:07:07,359 --> 00:07:16,799
Speaker 1: be back after a short break. I'm Laurie Gottlieb and.

124
00:07:16,799 --> 00:07:22,519
Speaker 3: I'm Guy Wench and this is Deotherapists. Hey Doug, welcome

125
00:07:22,559 --> 00:07:22,999
Speaker 3: to the show.

126
00:07:23,119 --> 00:07:25,079
Speaker 4: Hey Lorii, Hi Guy, how are you doing today.

127
00:07:25,199 --> 00:07:26,839
Speaker 1: We're well, thanks for coming on the show.

128
00:07:27,119 --> 00:07:27,999
Speaker 4: Thank you for having me.

129
00:07:28,439 --> 00:07:31,359
Speaker 3: You're welcome. We'd like to hear a little bit more

130
00:07:31,519 --> 00:07:34,839
Speaker 3: about the relationship, the ups and the downs. You mentioned

131
00:07:34,879 --> 00:07:36,039
Speaker 3: some of the downs, but we'd like to hear a

132
00:07:36,079 --> 00:07:38,799
Speaker 3: little bit about how bad things got, how good things

133
00:07:38,799 --> 00:07:41,159
Speaker 3: were and how things came to an end.

134
00:07:41,479 --> 00:07:45,959
Speaker 4: Sure, So Max and I met back in twenty fourteen,

135
00:07:46,479 --> 00:07:49,199
Speaker 4: and we met through work and connected right off the bat.

136
00:07:49,239 --> 00:07:52,479
Speaker 4: He is a really friendly guy and just really easy

137
00:07:52,519 --> 00:07:56,719
Speaker 4: to talk to. So we started dating shortly after we met.

138
00:07:57,199 --> 00:08:00,639
Speaker 4: Everything was good at first, and about six months in

139
00:08:01,239 --> 00:08:06,879
Speaker 4: he told me that he battled OCD. Clinical OCD and

140
00:08:07,879 --> 00:08:12,479
Speaker 4: OCD can manifest differently for everybody, but for Max in particular,

141
00:08:12,879 --> 00:08:17,319
Speaker 4: he would have obsessive thoughts and then repeat himself many

142
00:08:17,359 --> 00:08:21,439
Speaker 4: many times, and over time it progressively got worse. When

143
00:08:21,439 --> 00:08:24,919
Speaker 4: we started dating, it was, you know, maybe once a day,

144
00:08:25,159 --> 00:08:28,439
Speaker 4: every other day he would start really focusing on something,

145
00:08:28,519 --> 00:08:31,359
Speaker 4: and towards the end it was all the time. It

146
00:08:31,399 --> 00:08:33,679
Speaker 4: was all day, every day, from morning to night, about

147
00:08:33,719 --> 00:08:36,519
Speaker 4: really anything. It could have been he was upset that

148
00:08:36,799 --> 00:08:40,679
Speaker 4: he breathed wrong, or maybe he saw somebody attractive and thought,

149
00:08:41,359 --> 00:08:42,999
Speaker 4: is that cheating? Do I want to be with this

150
00:08:43,039 --> 00:08:47,559
Speaker 4: guy more than with Doug? And I think over time

151
00:08:48,039 --> 00:08:50,399
Speaker 4: I didn't realize how much it was weighing on me,

152
00:08:50,479 --> 00:08:53,679
Speaker 4: and my anxiety and my depression was really starting to

153
00:08:53,719 --> 00:08:57,639
Speaker 4: come through, because I mean, it was really just all

154
00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:00,879
Speaker 4: about him and all about his problems and towards the end,

155
00:09:00,919 --> 00:09:04,119
Speaker 4: it really got to the point where we were fighting

156
00:09:04,159 --> 00:09:08,079
Speaker 4: in front of our friends. I would try to remove

157
00:09:08,079 --> 00:09:10,639
Speaker 4: myself from the situation, lock myself in the bathroom, in

158
00:09:10,639 --> 00:09:13,359
Speaker 4: the bedroom, and he would pick the lock. I would

159
00:09:13,359 --> 00:09:16,319
Speaker 4: try to leave the house just to get some space,

160
00:09:16,359 --> 00:09:18,119
Speaker 4: and he would call me thirty times in a row

161
00:09:18,159 --> 00:09:20,799
Speaker 4: and I would have to turn off my phone. So

162
00:09:21,239 --> 00:09:24,599
Speaker 4: it got really intense. Towards the end, at the four

163
00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:28,639
Speaker 4: year mark, we got engaged, and I was really apprehensive

164
00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:32,999
Speaker 4: about it, but I was also really hopeful because I

165
00:09:33,039 --> 00:09:36,039
Speaker 4: thought maybe this would be a time in our relationship

166
00:09:36,039 --> 00:09:38,559
Speaker 4: where we could really focus on starting fresh and starting

167
00:09:38,599 --> 00:09:43,559
Speaker 4: new and really going forward with getting his OCD under control.

168
00:09:43,759 --> 00:09:46,399
Speaker 1: Doug, let me interrupt and ask you a question. It

169
00:09:46,519 --> 00:09:52,319
Speaker 1: sounds like the relationship was so volatile and there was

170
00:09:52,479 --> 00:09:55,919
Speaker 1: so much stress. You're fighting in front of friends, you

171
00:09:55,999 --> 00:09:58,479
Speaker 1: were locking yourself in a room, he was picking the lock.

172
00:09:59,879 --> 00:10:03,239
Speaker 1: What made you both decide we should take this to

173
00:10:03,279 --> 00:10:04,679
Speaker 1: the next step and get engaged.

174
00:10:05,319 --> 00:10:09,039
Speaker 4: I think for both of us it was our first

175
00:10:09,439 --> 00:10:14,879
Speaker 4: serious relationship, and all of our friends had been getting engaged.

176
00:10:14,959 --> 00:10:17,319
Speaker 4: It just kind of made sense at the time of

177
00:10:17,359 --> 00:10:23,079
Speaker 4: our life, and I really did love Max. I loved

178
00:10:23,119 --> 00:10:27,479
Speaker 4: his family. I don't have a great relationship with my family,

179
00:10:27,839 --> 00:10:30,839
Speaker 4: and his family fully embraced me from the very first

180
00:10:30,879 --> 00:10:36,839
Speaker 4: time that we met, and I think I was really

181
00:10:36,879 --> 00:10:41,199
Speaker 4: excited to have that in my life and it was

182
00:10:41,239 --> 00:10:44,639
Speaker 4: really important for me to have that. And we did

183
00:10:44,719 --> 00:10:47,319
Speaker 4: have a lot of good times together. We had a

184
00:10:47,359 --> 00:10:51,679
Speaker 4: lot of great memories together, and I really had hope

185
00:10:52,599 --> 00:10:55,319
Speaker 4: that it would get better. I knew the OCD would

186
00:10:55,319 --> 00:11:01,959
Speaker 4: always be there, but I thought with therapy and with work,

187
00:11:02,239 --> 00:11:05,519
Speaker 4: we could make it better. And it just never really

188
00:11:05,519 --> 00:11:06,119
Speaker 4: got better.

189
00:11:06,319 --> 00:11:08,239
Speaker 3: And did you see Max doing any of those things,

190
00:11:08,279 --> 00:11:11,199
Speaker 3: going to therapy or doing the work to change. Based

191
00:11:11,279 --> 00:11:13,519
Speaker 3: on the requests that you've made about the things that

192
00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:15,439
Speaker 3: made you uncomfortable.

193
00:11:14,959 --> 00:11:18,439
Speaker 4: He would go to therapy every once in a while,

194
00:11:18,759 --> 00:11:20,919
Speaker 4: it was always really hit or miss, and it was

195
00:11:20,959 --> 00:11:24,999
Speaker 4: always me trying to push him to go. When I

196
00:11:25,039 --> 00:11:29,279
Speaker 4: would have conversations about being unhappy. My two requests were,

197
00:11:29,799 --> 00:11:33,799
Speaker 4: please see a therapist regularly, and please reach out to

198
00:11:33,839 --> 00:11:36,999
Speaker 4: your friends or your family for support, because it all

199
00:11:37,279 --> 00:11:41,879
Speaker 4: kind of fell on me. He never really did that consistently.

200
00:11:42,479 --> 00:11:45,199
Speaker 4: He didn't feel comfortable talking to his friends or family.

201
00:11:45,239 --> 00:11:49,559
Speaker 4: He was very private about his OCD, So no, I

202
00:11:49,599 --> 00:11:53,359
Speaker 4: never really saw much of an effort, which was where

203
00:11:53,359 --> 00:11:54,519
Speaker 4: my frustration came in.

204
00:11:55,239 --> 00:11:58,319
Speaker 1: I hear how hard it was for you that he

205
00:11:58,439 --> 00:12:01,959
Speaker 1: was having so much trouble with the OCD. Did he

206
00:12:02,079 --> 00:12:05,119
Speaker 1: feel like he was having trouble with it? In other words,

207
00:12:05,199 --> 00:12:07,359
Speaker 1: it sounds like you were the one saying, please get

208
00:12:07,399 --> 00:12:10,839
Speaker 1: some help for this. It sounds like it was pretty severe.

209
00:12:11,159 --> 00:12:14,479
Speaker 1: Was he saying I don't like having to live this

210
00:12:14,519 --> 00:12:16,799
Speaker 1: way or did he not feel like it was as

211
00:12:16,839 --> 00:12:18,119
Speaker 1: big of an issue as you did.

212
00:12:18,719 --> 00:12:21,999
Speaker 4: He definitely knew it was an issue, and he struggled

213
00:12:21,999 --> 00:12:26,919
Speaker 4: with it. And to him, going to therapy and doing

214
00:12:26,959 --> 00:12:31,559
Speaker 4: the work was harder than living with his OCD. He

215
00:12:31,639 --> 00:12:35,519
Speaker 4: wasn't willing to put in that work because a lot

216
00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:40,039
Speaker 4: of the therapy was exposure and putting himself in situations

217
00:12:40,039 --> 00:12:43,679
Speaker 4: that would make him feel uncomfortable, and he didn't want

218
00:12:43,719 --> 00:12:44,079
Speaker 4: to do that.

219
00:12:45,439 --> 00:12:47,319
Speaker 3: And when did that become apparent to you that he

220
00:12:47,359 --> 00:12:50,479
Speaker 3: didn't want to do that? How far into the relationship.

221
00:12:50,399 --> 00:12:54,279
Speaker 4: I would say probably after the first year, year and

222
00:12:54,279 --> 00:12:58,639
Speaker 4: a half, and I continued to have hope that he

223
00:12:58,719 --> 00:13:03,199
Speaker 4: would go and after we got engaged and I told

224
00:13:03,239 --> 00:13:05,559
Speaker 4: him I'm going to put a pause on our wedding

225
00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:08,839
Speaker 4: plans because I don't feel comfortable moving forward. I really

226
00:13:08,919 --> 00:13:11,719
Speaker 4: need to see you making an effort to go to

227
00:13:11,799 --> 00:13:17,119
Speaker 4: therapy and work on this, and he didn't. And after

228
00:13:17,159 --> 00:13:20,479
Speaker 4: all these conversations, he would cry, he would say he

229
00:13:20,599 --> 00:13:22,079
Speaker 4: was going to do the work. He would get me

230
00:13:22,159 --> 00:13:26,559
Speaker 4: flowers or write me letters, and nothing ever changed. And

231
00:13:26,879 --> 00:13:30,639
Speaker 4: eventually I told him I'm not seeing a change, and

232
00:13:30,799 --> 00:13:33,759
Speaker 4: he immediately got out his phone and made five appointments

233
00:13:33,759 --> 00:13:36,079
Speaker 4: with a therapist. But at that point it was too little,

234
00:13:36,079 --> 00:13:41,479
Speaker 4: too late, and ultimately he was the one who ended

235
00:13:41,479 --> 00:13:44,279
Speaker 4: it with me. He told me he was unhappy, and

236
00:13:44,319 --> 00:13:47,359
Speaker 4: that's the first time he had even said that to me,

237
00:13:48,159 --> 00:13:50,879
Speaker 4: So it really came as a shock that he was

238
00:13:51,279 --> 00:13:53,959
Speaker 4: unhappy with me when he never really voiced that.

239
00:13:54,599 --> 00:13:57,239
Speaker 1: You said, when he said, Okay, I'm going to go

240
00:13:57,359 --> 00:14:01,599
Speaker 1: do this, you said, it's too little too late. What

241
00:14:01,639 --> 00:14:03,559
Speaker 1: do you mean you were seeing that he was finally

242
00:14:03,599 --> 00:14:05,839
Speaker 1: doing the thing that you had waited years to happen.

243
00:14:06,039 --> 00:14:08,159
Speaker 1: So why was it too little too late? You were

244
00:14:08,159 --> 00:14:10,639
Speaker 1: still in the relationship, You hadn't broken up with him,

245
00:14:10,719 --> 00:14:12,839
Speaker 1: you weren't planning to. He was the one who broke

246
00:14:12,919 --> 00:14:13,319
Speaker 1: up with you.

247
00:14:14,039 --> 00:14:18,319
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was planning on breaking up with him. I

248
00:14:18,399 --> 00:14:21,479
Speaker 4: knew that it wasn't good. I think I was so

249
00:14:21,639 --> 00:14:27,679
Speaker 4: afraid to break up with him, and I just didn't

250
00:14:27,999 --> 00:14:32,319
Speaker 4: have those feelings of love. I just felt mostly resentment.

251
00:14:32,599 --> 00:14:35,199
Speaker 3: Why were you afraid to break up with him?

252
00:14:35,559 --> 00:14:38,399
Speaker 4: I think I was afraid because I had never really

253
00:14:39,359 --> 00:14:41,959
Speaker 4: been on my own. I had such a strong support

254
00:14:42,079 --> 00:14:47,599
Speaker 4: system with his family and with his friends. I have

255
00:14:47,719 --> 00:14:51,359
Speaker 4: my own friends and support system, but I just really

256
00:14:51,599 --> 00:14:55,079
Speaker 4: didn't have a lot and his family and friends really

257
00:14:55,119 --> 00:14:57,519
Speaker 4: supported me, and I was afraid that I was going

258
00:14:57,559 --> 00:15:01,479
Speaker 4: to lose that with losing him, And I think the

259
00:15:01,519 --> 00:15:05,239
Speaker 4: fear of an unknown future was scary to me too.

260
00:15:06,319 --> 00:15:10,519
Speaker 4: Having at least a plan moving forward with somebody and

261
00:15:10,599 --> 00:15:12,399
Speaker 4: knowing kind of what my life was going to look

262
00:15:12,479 --> 00:15:15,559
Speaker 4: like was comforting to me in a way, even though

263
00:15:15,679 --> 00:15:18,959
Speaker 4: I was unhappy. I know it doesn't make sense, but

264
00:15:19,679 --> 00:15:20,679
Speaker 4: that's kind of where I was.

265
00:15:21,199 --> 00:15:24,039
Speaker 1: I think it makes perfect sense. One of the things

266
00:15:24,039 --> 00:15:26,879
Speaker 1: you keep mentioning is his family and the draw of

267
00:15:26,959 --> 00:15:29,639
Speaker 1: his family, and I'm wondering if you could tell us

268
00:15:29,639 --> 00:15:32,199
Speaker 1: a little bit more about your family and why you

269
00:15:32,279 --> 00:15:34,999
Speaker 1: felt like you didn't have that in your family.

270
00:15:35,719 --> 00:15:38,759
Speaker 4: So I was raised in a very religious family. My

271
00:15:39,079 --> 00:15:41,559
Speaker 4: dad is a pastor, my mom is a stay at

272
00:15:41,559 --> 00:15:45,199
Speaker 4: home mom. I have two older sisters that are married

273
00:15:45,239 --> 00:15:49,479
Speaker 4: with children and an older brother, and everybody in my

274
00:15:49,599 --> 00:15:53,239
Speaker 4: family is pretty religious, and so when I came out

275
00:15:53,959 --> 00:15:58,039
Speaker 4: around the age of twenty three, it really wasn't accepted

276
00:15:58,119 --> 00:16:01,439
Speaker 4: with my family. They really I got kicked out of

277
00:16:01,479 --> 00:16:04,199
Speaker 4: my parents' house. I moved in with my best friend.

278
00:16:04,679 --> 00:16:06,999
Speaker 4: I had all of my stuff in two trash bags

279
00:16:06,999 --> 00:16:08,879
Speaker 4: and just kind of said I'm moving in with you.

280
00:16:09,359 --> 00:16:13,879
Speaker 4: And it was really tough for a long time because

281
00:16:14,359 --> 00:16:18,319
Speaker 4: my family has always stressed the importance of our family

282
00:16:18,359 --> 00:16:22,799
Speaker 4: bond and I felt that I was disappointing them and

283
00:16:22,879 --> 00:16:27,279
Speaker 4: letting them down. And even throughout my relationship with Max,

284
00:16:28,759 --> 00:16:32,479
Speaker 4: my parents never asked about him. In five and a

285
00:16:32,519 --> 00:16:35,959
Speaker 4: half years and being engaged, they never met him. They

286
00:16:35,999 --> 00:16:40,919
Speaker 4: didn't really care. And I would be on a FaceTime

287
00:16:41,039 --> 00:16:43,479
Speaker 4: or a video call and they would ask about my

288
00:16:43,559 --> 00:16:47,119
Speaker 4: dog and then they wouldn't even mention anything about Max.

289
00:16:47,439 --> 00:16:50,559
Speaker 4: So it was very much a part of my life

290
00:16:50,559 --> 00:16:52,079
Speaker 4: that they did not want to know about.

291
00:16:52,319 --> 00:16:55,959
Speaker 3: And noticing that when you talk about Max, and also

292
00:16:55,959 --> 00:16:59,399
Speaker 3: when you talk about your parents, you seem much more

293
00:16:59,519 --> 00:17:04,199
Speaker 3: fluent in talking about their feelings and what they were

294
00:17:04,239 --> 00:17:07,679
Speaker 3: going through than you are your own. So you said,

295
00:17:07,839 --> 00:17:10,599
Speaker 3: you know, I felt like I've disappointed them. They felt

296
00:17:10,719 --> 00:17:13,719
Speaker 3: very disappointed in my parents, but they kicked you out.

297
00:17:13,879 --> 00:17:16,199
Speaker 3: You literally had to put yourself in trash bags and

298
00:17:16,239 --> 00:17:19,439
Speaker 3: go to a friend. You didn't really mention any feelings

299
00:17:19,479 --> 00:17:23,239
Speaker 3: you might have had about that kind of disappointment of

300
00:17:23,279 --> 00:17:26,679
Speaker 3: your parents actually not accepting you and kicking you out

301
00:17:26,679 --> 00:17:29,679
Speaker 3: of the house. So first, I do want to hear

302
00:17:29,679 --> 00:17:32,039
Speaker 3: what that was like for you, but I also want

303
00:17:32,079 --> 00:17:34,959
Speaker 3: to ask you if that's something that you noticed that

304
00:17:35,039 --> 00:17:37,759
Speaker 3: you do that you really focus on the other person's

305
00:17:38,279 --> 00:17:41,399
Speaker 3: feelings and yours come after that.

306
00:17:42,759 --> 00:17:47,599
Speaker 4: Yeah. I do have a hard time articulating my own

307
00:17:47,639 --> 00:17:53,439
Speaker 4: feelings a lot of the times, and I think during

308
00:17:53,479 --> 00:18:00,199
Speaker 4: that time, I just felt shame that I wasn't doing

309
00:18:00,599 --> 00:18:05,559
Speaker 4: what my family thought was best for me. That's when

310
00:18:05,599 --> 00:18:08,519
Speaker 4: I would say I really started feeling depressed and anxious.

311
00:18:08,839 --> 00:18:10,159
Speaker 4: Was during that time.

312
00:18:10,319 --> 00:18:12,519
Speaker 3: Saying that I felt shame for not doing what my

313
00:18:12,599 --> 00:18:15,879
Speaker 3: family wanted. But it's actually not about what you're doing,

314
00:18:15,879 --> 00:18:22,599
Speaker 3: This about who you are. Yeah, so it's much more refound. Definitely, yeah.

315
00:18:22,679 --> 00:18:26,119
Speaker 3: And I felt very alone during that time. And I

316
00:18:26,159 --> 00:18:30,199
Speaker 3: think with Max, that's all I did was put his

317
00:18:30,519 --> 00:18:33,039
Speaker 3: feelings and needs before my own. And it is a

318
00:18:33,159 --> 00:18:37,759
Speaker 3: very lonely feeling because I can sit here and explain

319
00:18:39,039 --> 00:18:42,359
Speaker 3: what it's like to have somebody ask you the same

320
00:18:42,439 --> 00:18:44,999
Speaker 3: question twenty times in a row, or from morning tonight,

321
00:18:46,439 --> 00:18:49,599
Speaker 3: just non stop asking the same thing. And I would

322
00:18:49,639 --> 00:18:51,599
Speaker 3: explain that to my friends. I would tell them about it.

323
00:18:51,639 --> 00:18:56,239
Speaker 3: Sometimes they would even experience, but they never really fully understood.

324
00:18:56,279 --> 00:18:59,159
Speaker 3: So was a very lonely feeling because no one quite

325
00:18:59,519 --> 00:19:02,959
Speaker 3: understands what it's like to go through that. But even

326
00:19:02,999 --> 00:19:05,479
Speaker 3: here in this example, who actually didn't tell us anything

327
00:19:05,479 --> 00:19:10,039
Speaker 3: about how that felt to you? So that feel to you?

328
00:19:10,599 --> 00:19:14,799
Speaker 4: It was frustrating. It would anger me. I would get

329
00:19:14,839 --> 00:19:17,399
Speaker 4: so angry so quick. Even if you just asked me

330
00:19:17,439 --> 00:19:20,319
Speaker 4: the same question just the second time after the first time,

331
00:19:20,439 --> 00:19:25,919
Speaker 4: I would instantly get super angry because it just was unending.

332
00:19:26,199 --> 00:19:28,399
Speaker 1: Did you ever get angry with your parents?

333
00:19:28,599 --> 00:19:28,959
Speaker 3: I did.

334
00:19:28,999 --> 00:19:33,759
Speaker 4: I went about a year without speaking to them because

335
00:19:34,199 --> 00:19:37,999
Speaker 4: I didn't know how to address what I was feeling.

336
00:19:38,039 --> 00:19:41,799
Speaker 4: I didn't know how to talk to them about how

337
00:19:41,839 --> 00:19:45,519
Speaker 4: they made me feel, and it was easier to just

338
00:19:46,039 --> 00:19:48,559
Speaker 4: not respond. They live out of state, so it was

339
00:19:48,599 --> 00:19:50,959
Speaker 4: really easy to just not talk to them.

340
00:19:51,879 --> 00:19:54,839
Speaker 3: Did you ever express that to them thereafter? How you

341
00:19:54,879 --> 00:19:57,439
Speaker 3: felt the anger because to be kicked out of your

342
00:19:57,479 --> 00:20:00,559
Speaker 3: house by your parents, who raised you and loved you

343
00:20:00,679 --> 00:20:03,919
Speaker 3: and the other siblings, and I'm sure they were welcome,

344
00:20:04,039 --> 00:20:06,599
Speaker 3: to be actually kicked out because of who you are

345
00:20:07,519 --> 00:20:10,519
Speaker 3: must feel horrible. Did you ever tell them? Do you

346
00:20:10,519 --> 00:20:13,239
Speaker 3: ever have an opportunity in the years that followed to

347
00:20:13,279 --> 00:20:14,679
Speaker 3: tell them what that was like for you?

348
00:20:15,799 --> 00:20:19,839
Speaker 4: I did. I started going to therapy myself, which was

349
00:20:20,519 --> 00:20:25,199
Speaker 4: really profound, and my therapist helped me write a letter

350
00:20:25,279 --> 00:20:29,159
Speaker 4: to them, because a lot of times when I would

351
00:20:29,159 --> 00:20:31,759
Speaker 4: try speaking to my parents, they would my mom especially

352
00:20:31,759 --> 00:20:36,639
Speaker 4: would overtalk or interrupt, or they would have Bible verses

353
00:20:36,799 --> 00:20:39,519
Speaker 4: that counteracted what I would say or how I was feeling,

354
00:20:39,959 --> 00:20:44,359
Speaker 4: and I was never able to fully articulate in those

355
00:20:44,399 --> 00:20:46,759
Speaker 4: moments how I felt. So I was able to write

356
00:20:46,799 --> 00:20:50,839
Speaker 4: them a letter and kind of laid everything out about

357
00:20:50,879 --> 00:20:55,799
Speaker 4: how I was feeling, and it felt really good to

358
00:20:55,919 --> 00:20:59,399
Speaker 4: send that, and I would say, that's kind of the

359
00:20:59,439 --> 00:21:03,519
Speaker 4: turning point in my family's relationship with me. It kind

360
00:21:03,559 --> 00:21:07,639
Speaker 4: of opened up some conversations about what it was like

361
00:21:08,159 --> 00:21:10,559
Speaker 4: to be me. I don't think they really put themselves

362
00:21:10,839 --> 00:21:15,439
Speaker 4: in my shoes, even though they still believe the same way.

363
00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:18,439
Speaker 4: We can at least have a little bit more open

364
00:21:18,879 --> 00:21:27,279
Speaker 4: conversations about being gay, about living my truth, and it's

365
00:21:27,319 --> 00:21:29,839
Speaker 4: not as combative anymore as it had been previously.

366
00:21:30,319 --> 00:21:32,199
Speaker 3: How did they respond when they got that letter?

367
00:21:32,679 --> 00:21:39,799
Speaker 4: They wrote me a letter back, and they were understanding,

368
00:21:40,199 --> 00:21:42,599
Speaker 4: I would say, where I was coming from. They still

369
00:21:42,679 --> 00:21:46,159
Speaker 4: had a lot to say about how they felt and

370
00:21:47,799 --> 00:21:53,239
Speaker 4: where they were coming from. And I think they felt

371
00:21:53,679 --> 00:21:58,079
Speaker 4: terrible that they had put me through that they had

372
00:21:58,159 --> 00:21:59,999
Speaker 4: kind of had it in their mind that they were

373
00:21:59,999 --> 00:22:02,199
Speaker 4: doing this out of love and because they cared about me,

374
00:22:02,279 --> 00:22:06,439
Speaker 4: and because they were worried about my future. They didn't

375
00:22:06,479 --> 00:22:09,279
Speaker 4: realize that they were the ones that were hurting me

376
00:22:09,959 --> 00:22:16,119
Speaker 4: and making me feel less than or unequal to my siblings.

377
00:22:16,479 --> 00:22:19,439
Speaker 1: What was your siblings reaction you talk about being alone.

378
00:22:20,399 --> 00:22:22,959
Speaker 1: Was it your parents and your siblings who reacted the

379
00:22:22,959 --> 00:22:25,079
Speaker 1: same way, or did your siblings have a different reaction.

380
00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:29,879
Speaker 4: My sisters are both pretty religious as well. I would

381
00:22:29,919 --> 00:22:33,279
Speaker 4: say it wasn't as extreme as my parents, but my

382
00:22:33,399 --> 00:22:36,519
Speaker 4: one sister did say she didn't want me around her

383
00:22:36,639 --> 00:22:40,239
Speaker 4: kids alone because she was worried that I would hurt

384
00:22:40,279 --> 00:22:44,199
Speaker 4: them or influence them in some way. So that was

385
00:22:44,239 --> 00:22:47,279
Speaker 4: really tough because I've always been really close with my sisters.

386
00:22:48,399 --> 00:22:52,079
Speaker 4: My brother is not super religious, so he was a

387
00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:56,439
Speaker 4: little bit more accepting and understanding, but he kind of

388
00:22:56,479 --> 00:22:59,919
Speaker 4: had his own problems with my parents, so he kind

389
00:22:59,959 --> 00:23:03,679
Speaker 4: of stayed out of that family dynamic.

390
00:23:03,999 --> 00:23:06,159
Speaker 1: Has it changed with your sister since then so that

391
00:23:06,279 --> 00:23:10,399
Speaker 1: you can be with her children and she has shifted

392
00:23:10,439 --> 00:23:11,399
Speaker 1: in her views.

393
00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,079
Speaker 4: She has I feel like it's easier for me to

394
00:23:15,159 --> 00:23:20,119
Speaker 4: talk to my sisters. I think they understand more how

395
00:23:20,639 --> 00:23:24,919
Speaker 4: hurtful it has been for me, and they're much more

396
00:23:24,959 --> 00:23:29,199
Speaker 4: open to even talking about my life and my partners,

397
00:23:29,519 --> 00:23:33,999
Speaker 4: and they're fine with me being around their kids. So

398
00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:36,559
Speaker 4: that definitely has improved over time.

399
00:23:38,239 --> 00:23:39,959
Speaker 3: How is your parents' relationship.

400
00:23:40,999 --> 00:23:45,359
Speaker 4: They have been together for a really long time. I

401
00:23:45,399 --> 00:23:50,559
Speaker 4: think over forty years. They fought a lot when we

402
00:23:50,559 --> 00:23:54,839
Speaker 4: were kids, and it was always behind closed doors. So

403
00:23:54,959 --> 00:23:57,519
Speaker 4: my dad, like I said, as a pastor, so they

404
00:23:57,559 --> 00:23:59,119
Speaker 4: could be fighting on the car on the way to

405
00:23:59,199 --> 00:24:01,119
Speaker 4: church and then when we would walk into church, everything

406
00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:04,759
Speaker 4: would be fine and great. There were a lot of

407
00:24:04,839 --> 00:24:08,359
Speaker 4: actually a lot of similarities between the way that my

408
00:24:08,479 --> 00:24:11,079
Speaker 4: parents would fight in the way that Max and I

409
00:24:11,159 --> 00:24:15,679
Speaker 4: would fight. My mom wasn't ever diagnosed with OCD, and

410
00:24:15,759 --> 00:24:19,559
Speaker 4: she refused to ever go and find out if she was.

411
00:24:19,639 --> 00:24:24,159
Speaker 4: But there were so many similarities between my mom and Max,

412
00:24:25,199 --> 00:24:28,479
Speaker 4: and it felt sometimes that I was just living the

413
00:24:28,559 --> 00:24:30,799
Speaker 4: same life as my parents in a way.

414
00:24:31,519 --> 00:24:33,399
Speaker 1: What was it like with your mom? Can you give

415
00:24:33,479 --> 00:24:35,279
Speaker 1: us an example of something that was similar.

416
00:24:36,559 --> 00:24:39,919
Speaker 4: Yeah, So she would be telling a story, for instance,

417
00:24:39,919 --> 00:24:43,839
Speaker 4: about something that happened at church, and as one does

418
00:24:43,879 --> 00:24:47,519
Speaker 4: in a conversation, we would interject, the kids would interject,

419
00:24:47,559 --> 00:24:50,039
Speaker 4: my dad would interject, and she would get really frustrated

420
00:24:50,079 --> 00:24:52,439
Speaker 4: by someone interrupting her, and she would start her whole

421
00:24:52,479 --> 00:24:57,479
Speaker 4: story all over again. She was also really really particular

422
00:24:57,519 --> 00:24:59,639
Speaker 4: about how the house looked, about how tighty it was,

423
00:24:59,719 --> 00:25:05,439
Speaker 4: how everything would be placed, and she would notice dust

424
00:25:05,479 --> 00:25:07,799
Speaker 4: on the floor that nobody could see, and she would

425
00:25:07,839 --> 00:25:10,719
Speaker 4: be really really anal about trying to make sure everything

426
00:25:10,799 --> 00:25:12,399
Speaker 4: was right. Even as kids, we would have to have

427
00:25:12,439 --> 00:25:14,439
Speaker 4: our rooms clean and our beds made in the morning

428
00:25:14,479 --> 00:25:15,639
Speaker 4: before we would go to school.

429
00:25:16,079 --> 00:25:18,799
Speaker 3: When did it occur to you that mom might have

430
00:25:18,879 --> 00:25:23,439
Speaker 3: had OCD, fiance has OCD? One of those two connect

431
00:25:23,639 --> 00:25:23,959
Speaker 3: for you.

432
00:25:24,719 --> 00:25:27,919
Speaker 4: I think when we when my fiance and I started

433
00:25:28,439 --> 00:25:33,559
Speaker 4: fighting more, and I remember having one conversation that was

434
00:25:33,639 --> 00:25:36,799
Speaker 4: pretty much identical to the conversations my parents would have,

435
00:25:37,439 --> 00:25:43,199
Speaker 4: where my partner would be relentless in talking about the

436
00:25:43,239 --> 00:25:45,919
Speaker 4: same thing over and over, and at first I would

437
00:25:45,919 --> 00:25:50,039
Speaker 4: maybe try to stay on my ground or tell him

438
00:25:50,039 --> 00:25:52,879
Speaker 4: he needed to stop, or even tried the silent treatment,

439
00:25:53,079 --> 00:25:55,039
Speaker 4: and he would just keep going and going until I

440
00:25:55,079 --> 00:25:59,879
Speaker 4: would just throw my hands up and say, okay, you're right, Yeah,

441
00:25:59,919 --> 00:26:02,279
Speaker 4: it's fine, or just agree with whatever he would say

442
00:26:02,999 --> 00:26:05,479
Speaker 4: to move forward so that we weren't stuck on the

443
00:26:05,519 --> 00:26:08,479
Speaker 4: same thing. And that was exactly what my dad did

444
00:26:08,599 --> 00:26:12,239
Speaker 4: all the time, because he would rather just let it

445
00:26:12,279 --> 00:26:16,279
Speaker 4: go than continue to argue. Because my mom would just

446
00:26:16,399 --> 00:26:18,999
Speaker 4: keep going until everyone would agree with her.

447
00:26:19,479 --> 00:26:21,479
Speaker 3: See, in that moment, you might make that connection, but

448
00:26:21,519 --> 00:26:23,519
Speaker 3: you literally have the model that but you don't get

449
00:26:23,559 --> 00:26:25,599
Speaker 3: divorced over it, you don't break up over it. Your

450
00:26:25,679 --> 00:26:27,999
Speaker 3: dad totivated it for over forty years, and he was

451
00:26:28,039 --> 00:26:30,439
Speaker 3: a trooper, so you must have felt like, no, this

452
00:26:30,559 --> 00:26:33,879
Speaker 3: is not grounds for a breakup, because my parents have

453
00:26:33,959 --> 00:26:35,879
Speaker 3: a similar situation and they did not break up.

454
00:26:36,239 --> 00:26:41,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly right, when he broke up with you, tell

455
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:44,119
Speaker 1: us about the context in which that happened.

456
00:26:44,959 --> 00:26:47,559
Speaker 4: So when we would have our conversations and I would

457
00:26:47,559 --> 00:26:49,759
Speaker 4: come to him and tell him the things that I needed,

458
00:26:50,239 --> 00:26:52,559
Speaker 4: like going to therapy or reaching out to his friends,

459
00:26:52,599 --> 00:26:56,519
Speaker 4: he would always just ask me for patience, and he

460
00:26:56,559 --> 00:26:58,599
Speaker 4: would always say how much he loved me and wanted

461
00:26:58,679 --> 00:27:04,879
Speaker 4: to make things work. And his mom is battling pancreatic

462
00:27:04,919 --> 00:27:09,559
Speaker 4: cancer and has been battling that for almost two years now,

463
00:27:10,439 --> 00:27:13,159
Speaker 4: and one night we were on the phone with her

464
00:27:13,959 --> 00:27:17,519
Speaker 4: and praying with her, and when we got off the phone,

465
00:27:17,559 --> 00:27:21,599
Speaker 4: he just started crying and asked him what was wrong,

466
00:27:21,639 --> 00:27:23,999
Speaker 4: and I told him she's going to be okay, It's

467
00:27:23,999 --> 00:27:26,679
Speaker 4: going to be okay, and he just said, I think

468
00:27:26,719 --> 00:27:32,119
Speaker 4: we should break up. I'm unhappy, And at that exact moment,

469
00:27:32,959 --> 00:27:36,679
Speaker 4: I felt relieved. I was sad, and I even said

470
00:27:36,719 --> 00:27:38,839
Speaker 4: I agree. I think that this is the right decision

471
00:27:38,919 --> 00:27:44,679
Speaker 4: for us. And we kind of just had a peaceful

472
00:27:44,799 --> 00:27:47,799
Speaker 4: night where we reminisced about our past and we talked

473
00:27:47,839 --> 00:27:52,999
Speaker 4: about our dog, and we just really kind of made

474
00:27:52,999 --> 00:27:55,439
Speaker 4: a plan for the future what we were going to

475
00:27:55,479 --> 00:28:00,759
Speaker 4: do as far as a living situation. And then overnight,

476
00:28:01,079 --> 00:28:03,639
Speaker 4: I think that's when the fear for me really started

477
00:28:03,679 --> 00:28:08,079
Speaker 4: to set in and I thought, no, I don't want

478
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:11,199
Speaker 4: this to end. I think again, because I was just afraid.

479
00:28:11,479 --> 00:28:14,119
Speaker 4: And so the next day I wrote him a letter

480
00:28:14,159 --> 00:28:16,239
Speaker 4: and I told him, I want to fight for this,

481
00:28:16,319 --> 00:28:18,959
Speaker 4: I want to make this work. You have never told

482
00:28:18,959 --> 00:28:21,239
Speaker 4: me what you needed from me, so I can give

483
00:28:21,279 --> 00:28:24,119
Speaker 4: you what you need. Maybe we can go to couple's therapy,

484
00:28:24,319 --> 00:28:27,399
Speaker 4: maybe we can take some time apart and think about it.

485
00:28:27,599 --> 00:28:31,999
Speaker 4: And he was really really unwilling to do any of

486
00:28:31,999 --> 00:28:34,519
Speaker 4: that work. And I was really surprised by that and

487
00:28:34,559 --> 00:28:37,879
Speaker 4: really hurt by that because I had tried for so

488
00:28:38,039 --> 00:28:44,039
Speaker 4: long to make it work and he ended it because

489
00:28:44,079 --> 00:28:47,519
Speaker 4: he was unhappy and I had no idea and wasn't

490
00:28:47,559 --> 00:28:50,799
Speaker 4: willing to fight or work on anything.

491
00:28:51,199 --> 00:28:53,159
Speaker 1: Do you know why he was unhappy? Was able to

492
00:28:53,159 --> 00:28:55,279
Speaker 1: tell you because for five and a half years he

493
00:28:55,359 --> 00:28:59,479
Speaker 1: never told you that he was unhappy, And now he's saying,

494
00:28:59,919 --> 00:29:01,759
Speaker 1: I don't want this, I've been unhappy.

495
00:29:02,119 --> 00:29:05,599
Speaker 4: He didn't did you ask him? I did ask him,

496
00:29:05,919 --> 00:29:08,479
Speaker 4: he didn't really have a reason. He had a really

497
00:29:08,559 --> 00:29:13,519
Speaker 4: hard time arcticketulating it. I brought up the fact that

498
00:29:14,079 --> 00:29:16,879
Speaker 4: it must be hard for him to know that I

499
00:29:16,999 --> 00:29:19,439
Speaker 4: was really frustrated and that I would get really angry,

500
00:29:19,479 --> 00:29:22,799
Speaker 4: and he kind of agreed to that, and I tried

501
00:29:22,839 --> 00:29:24,799
Speaker 4: reaching out to his friends and his family to see

502
00:29:24,799 --> 00:29:30,399
Speaker 4: if any of them had any further insight, and they didn't.

503
00:29:30,599 --> 00:29:33,839
Speaker 3: You said you were surprised that when you said, hey,

504
00:29:33,879 --> 00:29:36,039
Speaker 3: I'll work on this, let's go to therapy, let's do something,

505
00:29:36,039 --> 00:29:39,599
Speaker 3: that he wasn't willing to work on it. When for

506
00:29:39,679 --> 00:29:41,879
Speaker 3: five and a half years he wasn't willing to work

507
00:29:41,919 --> 00:29:44,359
Speaker 3: on things. Why were you surprised that here at the end,

508
00:29:44,479 --> 00:29:47,359
Speaker 3: he yet again was not willing to work on things.

509
00:29:48,079 --> 00:29:52,319
Speaker 4: I think because we did have such a long relationship,

510
00:29:52,839 --> 00:29:56,159
Speaker 4: and so I thought maybe maybe he would be able

511
00:29:56,199 --> 00:30:00,359
Speaker 4: to tell me why he was upset or unhappy in therapy,

512
00:30:00,439 --> 00:30:02,799
Speaker 4: or maybe things would come out that we could work

513
00:30:02,839 --> 00:30:05,439
Speaker 4: on together to help our relationship.

514
00:30:05,759 --> 00:30:08,839
Speaker 3: So you said, at first I was relieved, and then

515
00:30:09,039 --> 00:30:11,959
Speaker 3: an I got really scared and it was going to

516
00:30:11,999 --> 00:30:14,959
Speaker 3: be scary because similar to when you had to pack

517
00:30:14,999 --> 00:30:17,279
Speaker 3: everything into the two trash bags, and move out of

518
00:30:17,319 --> 00:30:20,759
Speaker 3: your parents' house. Here, you were going to lose a lot,

519
00:30:20,959 --> 00:30:25,319
Speaker 3: not just Max, but his family, his friends. His mom

520
00:30:25,399 --> 00:30:28,199
Speaker 3: was going through this very very difficult illness, and you

521
00:30:28,319 --> 00:30:31,879
Speaker 3: feared you were going to lose a family again. And

522
00:30:31,999 --> 00:30:35,319
Speaker 3: I can understand why that was very scary for you

523
00:30:35,639 --> 00:30:38,439
Speaker 3: in that moment. How much were you in touch with

524
00:30:38,519 --> 00:30:41,479
Speaker 3: the fact that I'm trying to get back together because

525
00:30:41,519 --> 00:30:45,239
Speaker 3: I'm afraid of moving on alone versus no, I think

526
00:30:45,239 --> 00:30:46,719
Speaker 3: this relationship can work out.

527
00:30:47,159 --> 00:30:51,279
Speaker 4: At the time, I didn't recognize that. Now that it's

528
00:30:51,319 --> 00:30:54,919
Speaker 4: been a few months since we've ended things, I see

529
00:30:54,959 --> 00:31:00,159
Speaker 4: that it was that. But at the time, I really

530
00:31:00,279 --> 00:31:03,479
Speaker 4: was just trying to hold on to the future that

531
00:31:03,519 --> 00:31:08,319
Speaker 4: I thought that we could have, and hold on to

532
00:31:10,159 --> 00:31:13,559
Speaker 4: whatever relationship we had at that point, because I was

533
00:31:13,599 --> 00:31:17,639
Speaker 4: afraid to be alone because, like you said, I had

534
00:31:17,679 --> 00:31:21,479
Speaker 4: already lost my family unit and it was really scary

535
00:31:21,479 --> 00:31:23,319
Speaker 4: to think about losing another family unit.

536
00:31:23,879 --> 00:31:28,719
Speaker 1: So after the anxiety set in about being alone, what

537
00:31:28,919 --> 00:31:31,439
Speaker 1: happened between you there? How did you actually split?

538
00:31:32,279 --> 00:31:35,479
Speaker 4: We actually lived together for a month after we split

539
00:31:35,559 --> 00:31:39,159
Speaker 4: because our lease was not done yet and we were

540
00:31:39,199 --> 00:31:42,639
Speaker 4: both looking for a place, and I kind of attribute

541
00:31:42,679 --> 00:31:46,079
Speaker 4: that time as a really big blessing and a really

542
00:31:46,159 --> 00:31:49,679
Speaker 4: big curse because we were able to talk about a

543
00:31:49,719 --> 00:31:52,759
Speaker 4: lot of things that we had never talked about in

544
00:31:52,799 --> 00:31:54,839
Speaker 4: the relationship. I got to bring up a lot of

545
00:31:54,879 --> 00:31:58,439
Speaker 4: things that I felt frustrated by a lot of hurt

546
00:31:58,519 --> 00:32:00,799
Speaker 4: that I had felt in the relationship. I got to

547
00:32:00,839 --> 00:32:04,719
Speaker 4: bring up mostly because I was really upset during that time.

548
00:32:05,159 --> 00:32:07,559
Speaker 1: And even though you were talking a lot during that time,

549
00:32:07,599 --> 00:32:10,279
Speaker 1: he still never was able to our ticket relate how

550
00:32:10,279 --> 00:32:12,559
Speaker 1: he came to the realization that he wasn't happy in

551
00:32:12,559 --> 00:32:16,439
Speaker 1: the relationship. No, did you directly ask him?

552
00:32:16,719 --> 00:32:16,879
Speaker 3: Yeah?

553
00:32:16,919 --> 00:32:19,199
Speaker 4: I would ask him if there was somebody else and

554
00:32:19,279 --> 00:32:23,999
Speaker 4: he would say no. I would ask him if it

555
00:32:24,199 --> 00:32:27,799
Speaker 4: was because of the way I looked, and he said no.

556
00:32:28,959 --> 00:32:32,519
Speaker 4: I asked him if it was because I smoked marijuana.

557
00:32:32,999 --> 00:32:33,559
Speaker 4: He said no.

558
00:32:34,319 --> 00:32:37,879
Speaker 1: And well, Doug, you're sort of playing twenty questions as

559
00:32:37,879 --> 00:32:41,879
Speaker 1: opposed to saying, can you tell me why you're unhappy

560
00:32:41,959 --> 00:32:45,999
Speaker 1: in the relationship? Did you ever ask him that question?

561
00:32:47,039 --> 00:32:50,319
Speaker 4: No? I don't think I directly asked him in that way.

562
00:32:50,399 --> 00:32:52,639
Speaker 1: No. Do you have an idea of why you didn't

563
00:32:52,679 --> 00:32:53,239
Speaker 1: ask him?

564
00:32:53,679 --> 00:32:56,079
Speaker 4: Maybe I was afraid for him to tell me that

565
00:32:56,159 --> 00:32:58,639
Speaker 4: it wasn't anything to do with me, that maybe it

566
00:32:58,679 --> 00:33:00,159
Speaker 4: was just because we were incompatible.

567
00:33:00,479 --> 00:33:02,879
Speaker 1: Was that similar to what happened in your family, where

568
00:33:03,159 --> 00:33:06,479
Speaker 1: there was this thing that people just knew, but nobody

569
00:33:06,519 --> 00:33:07,639
Speaker 1: wanted to say directly.

570
00:33:08,559 --> 00:33:12,479
Speaker 4: I think my siblings knew. They didn't really seem surprised

571
00:33:12,559 --> 00:33:15,319
Speaker 4: when I came out to them. My parents seemed very surprised,

572
00:33:16,119 --> 00:33:18,879
Speaker 4: but I had kept it a secret for so long,

573
00:33:19,799 --> 00:33:24,159
Speaker 4: and I played the part of a straight man that

574
00:33:24,279 --> 00:33:26,719
Speaker 4: went to church and loved God for so long that

575
00:33:26,799 --> 00:33:29,119
Speaker 4: my parents just didn't expect that from me.

576
00:33:29,439 --> 00:33:33,239
Speaker 3: Do you have a thought about why you felt freer

577
00:33:34,319 --> 00:33:37,159
Speaker 3: to bring up a lot of your feelings and frustrations

578
00:33:37,159 --> 00:33:41,439
Speaker 3: in the relationship in that month after the breakup then

579
00:33:41,519 --> 00:33:43,239
Speaker 3: you were before the breakup.

580
00:33:44,039 --> 00:33:47,159
Speaker 4: I think at that point I felt like I had

581
00:33:47,199 --> 00:33:50,399
Speaker 4: nothing to lose. He clearly didn't want to be with me,

582
00:33:50,759 --> 00:33:53,279
Speaker 4: and I wanted him to know how much he hurt me.

583
00:33:53,639 --> 00:33:55,719
Speaker 1: Was he responsive to the things that you said. Did

584
00:33:55,719 --> 00:33:59,479
Speaker 1: he have an understanding or compassion that maybe he didn't

585
00:33:59,839 --> 00:34:01,559
Speaker 1: have in the relationship.

586
00:34:02,239 --> 00:34:05,359
Speaker 4: I think so. I think he really realized how deep

587
00:34:05,399 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 4: it went. I don't think he really understood that throughout

588
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:16,039
Speaker 4: the relationship. But he definitely apologized for the things that

589
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 4: he said and did in our relationship, and I know

590
00:34:21,879 --> 00:34:24,519
Speaker 4: he meant it. I know that he really, he really

591
00:34:24,559 --> 00:34:26,359
Speaker 4: did feel bad.

592
00:34:26,639 --> 00:34:28,759
Speaker 1: When guy was asking why it was easier to talk

593
00:34:28,759 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 1: about this after the relationship had ended, and you said

594
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:36,519
Speaker 1: you had nothing to lose, what would have happened. Did

595
00:34:36,519 --> 00:34:38,759
Speaker 1: you imagine if you had told him at the time

596
00:34:38,839 --> 00:34:42,519
Speaker 1: when he made a remark that hurt you, to tell him, hey,

597
00:34:42,599 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 1: that really hurt me. What do you think his response

598
00:34:45,279 --> 00:34:45,759
Speaker 1: would have been.

599
00:34:45,999 --> 00:34:49,599
Speaker 4: When we first started dating and his OCD really started

600
00:34:49,799 --> 00:34:53,599
Speaker 4: to come through, a lot of his OCD was about

601
00:34:53,639 --> 00:34:59,079
Speaker 4: finding other men more attractive than me and wondering if

602
00:34:59,119 --> 00:35:03,399
Speaker 4: that meant he was cheating. And on several occasions I

603
00:35:03,479 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 4: brought up how much it hurt me because I felt

604
00:35:07,279 --> 00:35:10,199
Speaker 4: like he didn't find me attractive. And when I would

605
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:13,999
Speaker 4: bring up something like that, he would apologize over and

606
00:35:14,039 --> 00:35:16,839
Speaker 4: over and over again and feel bad. And then when

607
00:35:16,879 --> 00:35:19,759
Speaker 4: it would happen again and I would say that hurts me,

608
00:35:19,879 --> 00:35:23,199
Speaker 4: that makes me feel insecure, than he would apologize again

609
00:35:23,359 --> 00:35:25,799
Speaker 4: over and over and so it got to the point

610
00:35:25,839 --> 00:35:27,799
Speaker 4: where I was like, well, I'm just not going to

611
00:35:27,839 --> 00:35:30,479
Speaker 4: say anything because he's not listening to what I'm saying.

612
00:35:30,519 --> 00:35:31,719
Speaker 4: It just triggers his OCD.

613
00:35:31,879 --> 00:35:34,959
Speaker 1: More so, what was different after you broke up because

614
00:35:34,959 --> 00:35:38,399
Speaker 1: he still had OCD? What was more satisfying about his

615
00:35:38,559 --> 00:35:42,959
Speaker 1: response after you broke up that you weren't getting when

616
00:35:42,999 --> 00:35:44,599
Speaker 1: you brought it up during the relationship.

617
00:35:45,279 --> 00:35:48,759
Speaker 4: I think it seems like he understood it more so.

618
00:35:48,919 --> 00:35:54,079
Speaker 4: For example, with me feeling unattractive, I would work out

619
00:35:54,119 --> 00:35:57,079
Speaker 4: two times a day, I would count my calories, and

620
00:35:57,199 --> 00:35:59,839
Speaker 4: he never knew that. I felt much more free to

621
00:35:59,879 --> 00:36:04,199
Speaker 4: say those things after we had broken up. I think

622
00:36:04,279 --> 00:36:07,399
Speaker 4: because of that, it made more sense to him, and

623
00:36:07,439 --> 00:36:10,759
Speaker 4: I think he could really see a bigger picture than

624
00:36:10,919 --> 00:36:12,599
Speaker 4: just those moments.

625
00:36:12,959 --> 00:36:15,839
Speaker 3: To me, it seems clear that the difference in how

626
00:36:15,879 --> 00:36:20,879
Speaker 3: he responded after you were broken up was due significantly

627
00:36:20,959 --> 00:36:23,439
Speaker 3: to the fact that you brought things up in a

628
00:36:23,479 --> 00:36:26,479
Speaker 3: different way that you were not holding back to You

629
00:36:26,479 --> 00:36:28,479
Speaker 3: are like, I'm just going to talk about how I feel.

630
00:36:28,519 --> 00:36:29,919
Speaker 3: I'm not going to hold back. I'm not going to

631
00:36:29,999 --> 00:36:32,639
Speaker 3: worry that this might break something because it's already broken.

632
00:36:33,199 --> 00:36:36,879
Speaker 3: And that evoked a different response. Are you clear that

633
00:36:36,959 --> 00:36:40,839
Speaker 3: it was you speaking your truth about how you feel

634
00:36:41,519 --> 00:36:44,559
Speaker 3: that garnered the better response as opposed to him being

635
00:36:44,559 --> 00:36:45,319
Speaker 3: in a different place.

636
00:36:46,079 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 4: I definitely understand that now, and that's something that I've

637
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:55,759
Speaker 4: been working on through therapy. I think I'm trying to

638
00:36:55,879 --> 00:36:59,399
Speaker 4: learn how to be more vocal and say my needs

639
00:36:59,679 --> 00:37:04,479
Speaker 4: and my feelings, but it is still difficult.

640
00:37:04,079 --> 00:37:06,839
Speaker 1: For me to do. So you broke up several months ago,

641
00:37:08,119 --> 00:37:13,519
Speaker 1: and what is your contact like now with Max? And

642
00:37:13,839 --> 00:37:17,279
Speaker 1: tell us also when and how you met your new boyfriend.

643
00:37:18,519 --> 00:37:23,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, so Max and I still have contact. We had

644
00:37:23,279 --> 00:37:25,839
Speaker 4: a dog together, so I will take the dog. We

645
00:37:25,879 --> 00:37:29,359
Speaker 4: see each other. It is very cordial. I still talk

646
00:37:29,439 --> 00:37:33,119
Speaker 4: with his mom and his sister regularly. It feels good

647
00:37:33,159 --> 00:37:38,839
Speaker 4: to be on good terms with him. And I met

648
00:37:38,839 --> 00:37:43,479
Speaker 4: my current boyfriend, Lucas through a mutual friend, and he

649
00:37:43,959 --> 00:37:47,999
Speaker 4: is amazing. I feel like he gives me everything that

650
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,279
Speaker 4: I need out of a relationship. He gives me support,

651
00:37:51,839 --> 00:37:55,799
Speaker 4: he gives me a listening ear. It feels very balanced

652
00:37:55,839 --> 00:37:58,719
Speaker 4: in the relationship. When I'm feeling anxious, he's there to

653
00:37:58,759 --> 00:38:01,039
Speaker 4: support me. When he has things that he's going through,

654
00:38:01,079 --> 00:38:04,639
Speaker 4: I can be there for him. I didn't realize how

655
00:38:04,679 --> 00:38:08,119
Speaker 4: easy a relationship could be. I feel like I can

656
00:38:08,159 --> 00:38:10,639
Speaker 4: be much more open and honest with Lucas, and I

657
00:38:10,679 --> 00:38:14,119
Speaker 4: feel like I have been. There are definitely times when

658
00:38:15,439 --> 00:38:20,119
Speaker 4: I get in my head or I don't feel comfortable

659
00:38:21,399 --> 00:38:25,319
Speaker 4: being super open about how I'm feeling. He'll ask me,

660
00:38:26,279 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 4: and I think that's kind of where I struggle is.

661
00:38:29,759 --> 00:38:32,279
Speaker 4: He'll ask me, and I'll say everything's fine, and he'll

662
00:38:32,319 --> 00:38:36,359
Speaker 4: ask me again, and I can feel myself getting angry

663
00:38:36,439 --> 00:38:39,719
Speaker 4: even though he's not doing it because he is OCD.

664
00:38:40,039 --> 00:38:43,439
Speaker 4: I think I still have those thoughts where if somebody

665
00:38:43,439 --> 00:38:46,999
Speaker 4: asked me the same question a couple of times, I

666
00:38:47,279 --> 00:38:49,599
Speaker 4: just tense up. I think, after five and a half

667
00:38:49,679 --> 00:38:50,839
Speaker 4: years of going through that.

668
00:38:51,079 --> 00:38:53,479
Speaker 3: Are you able to in those moments, even if you're

669
00:38:53,479 --> 00:38:56,559
Speaker 3: getting annoyed, but tell him how you feel, or if

670
00:38:56,559 --> 00:38:58,839
Speaker 3: you're preoccupied at you're distant, be able to share with

671
00:38:58,919 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 3: him where you're ant emotionally in that moment.

672
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:06,239
Speaker 4: We have talked about that a couple of times, and

673
00:39:06,399 --> 00:39:09,999
Speaker 4: I've kind of shared my story with Max and how

674
00:39:10,079 --> 00:39:12,519
Speaker 4: that went, so he understands where I'm coming from and

675
00:39:13,119 --> 00:39:15,159
Speaker 4: we're able to get to the point now where I

676
00:39:15,199 --> 00:39:17,719
Speaker 4: can say I'm really anxious. I can't talk about it

677
00:39:17,799 --> 00:39:20,319
Speaker 4: right now, but we can talk about it later and

678
00:39:20,399 --> 00:39:22,719
Speaker 4: we do. When I'm a little bit more calm or

679
00:39:22,759 --> 00:39:25,559
Speaker 4: in a better mind space. That does work out really

680
00:39:25,559 --> 00:39:26,679
Speaker 4: well for us in.

681
00:39:26,599 --> 00:39:31,119
Speaker 1: This new relationship. What makes you anxious.

682
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:34,359
Speaker 4: It's not necessarily anything with the relationship per se. Could

683
00:39:34,439 --> 00:39:40,399
Speaker 4: just be work, it could be things with my family,

684
00:39:40,519 --> 00:39:42,919
Speaker 4: it could be just the state of the world. And

685
00:39:42,959 --> 00:39:46,719
Speaker 4: I think it's really hard for me to open up

686
00:39:46,959 --> 00:39:50,999
Speaker 4: to him in certain ways about certain things because every

687
00:39:50,999 --> 00:39:53,319
Speaker 4: time in the past that I've opened up about my feelings,

688
00:39:53,319 --> 00:39:56,039
Speaker 4: it's either been met with rejection like my family, or

689
00:39:56,039 --> 00:39:58,999
Speaker 4: met with OCD with Max. So it's really hard for

690
00:39:59,039 --> 00:40:03,079
Speaker 4: me to trust that I can have a safe person

691
00:40:03,119 --> 00:40:03,759
Speaker 4: to open up to.

692
00:40:04,519 --> 00:40:08,679
Speaker 3: Each of those things are all good. Further, for a

693
00:40:08,679 --> 00:40:11,719
Speaker 3: conversation with a partner, to say, you know, I'm just

694
00:40:11,759 --> 00:40:13,959
Speaker 3: thinking about work, I'm a little anxious about something. Let

695
00:40:13,959 --> 00:40:17,119
Speaker 3: me tell you what's going on. Why not share that

696
00:40:17,159 --> 00:40:21,479
Speaker 3: with him? Because part of your pattern is I'm afraid

697
00:40:21,559 --> 00:40:25,279
Speaker 3: to share enough about what I feel because in the

698
00:40:25,319 --> 00:40:28,079
Speaker 3: past people haven't handled that well. I've told my parents

699
00:40:28,079 --> 00:40:33,039
Speaker 3: about who I am, and I've gotten OCD responses from Max.

700
00:40:33,839 --> 00:40:36,199
Speaker 3: But part of you recognizes that it's an important thing

701
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:40,359
Speaker 3: to be able to do why not actually just tell

702
00:40:40,399 --> 00:40:42,799
Speaker 3: them what the thing is that you're anxious about. That's

703
00:40:42,879 --> 00:40:46,119
Speaker 3: when you would most benefit perhaps from that support and conversation.

704
00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:48,879
Speaker 3: Why have to be unanxious before you can talk to

705
00:40:48,919 --> 00:40:50,239
Speaker 3: him about what you're anxious about.

706
00:40:51,079 --> 00:40:56,679
Speaker 4: I just don't want to be a burden on anyone,

707
00:40:56,999 --> 00:40:59,399
Speaker 4: Like my family, for instance, they are worried about me

708
00:40:59,639 --> 00:41:04,879
Speaker 4: and going to heaven or my future, and I just

709
00:41:04,919 --> 00:41:08,079
Speaker 4: always feel like when I do open up to people

710
00:41:08,159 --> 00:41:10,879
Speaker 4: and when I'm honest with that, that I'm just being

711
00:41:10,879 --> 00:41:12,119
Speaker 4: a burden to them.

712
00:41:12,639 --> 00:41:16,239
Speaker 1: I can see how in your mind you felt like

713
00:41:16,559 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 1: you were a burden to your parents because they were

714
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:22,839
Speaker 1: going to have to quote unquote deal with the fact

715
00:41:22,919 --> 00:41:27,719
Speaker 1: that this was going to affect their lives, the lives

716
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:33,199
Speaker 1: of their community, etc. Even though, of course being who

717
00:41:33,199 --> 00:41:36,479
Speaker 1: you are is not a burden. And so I think

718
00:41:36,839 --> 00:41:41,319
Speaker 1: MAX was very convenient for you because you couldn't possibly

719
00:41:41,799 --> 00:41:45,799
Speaker 1: be a burden to someone who has OCD. That takes

720
00:41:45,879 --> 00:41:48,639
Speaker 1: up all the space in the relationship. There's no room

721
00:41:48,999 --> 00:41:51,759
Speaker 1: for you in the relationship. So in some ways you

722
00:41:51,799 --> 00:41:54,879
Speaker 1: really resented it, but in other ways it was incredibly

723
00:41:54,959 --> 00:41:59,159
Speaker 1: safe for you because you couldn't possibly bring your own

724
00:41:59,159 --> 00:42:03,399
Speaker 1: stuff into that relationship with all that was going on,

725
00:42:04,359 --> 00:42:06,319
Speaker 1: you could have you chose not to, we should say,

726
00:42:06,319 --> 00:42:08,519
Speaker 1: because at the end you did, and here you are

727
00:42:08,559 --> 00:42:11,719
Speaker 1: with Lucas. So it was giving you all of that space.

728
00:42:13,159 --> 00:42:16,519
Speaker 1: And on the one hand, you really crave that, and

729
00:42:16,559 --> 00:42:21,159
Speaker 1: on the other hand, you're so uncomfortable with it because

730
00:42:21,159 --> 00:42:24,479
Speaker 1: you're so afraid that if I share the truth of

731
00:42:24,519 --> 00:42:30,839
Speaker 1: who I am, I will somehow disappoint, burden offend, be

732
00:42:30,959 --> 00:42:31,559
Speaker 1: too much.

733
00:42:32,319 --> 00:42:36,719
Speaker 4: That's exactly it. I think I'm afraid sometimes to share

734
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:41,199
Speaker 4: how I feel with Lucas because with Max, he broke

735
00:42:41,279 --> 00:42:42,679
Speaker 4: up with me out of the blue and I had

736
00:42:42,679 --> 00:42:45,519
Speaker 4: no idea how he was feeling. And so I think

737
00:42:45,559 --> 00:42:49,279
Speaker 4: that even amplifies that with Lucas, because I'm afraid that

738
00:42:49,319 --> 00:42:52,519
Speaker 4: I'm going to say something wrong or that I'm going

739
00:42:52,559 --> 00:42:55,079
Speaker 4: to be too much for him, and he's not going

740
00:42:55,119 --> 00:42:57,079
Speaker 4: to want to take on that burden of me and

741
00:42:57,119 --> 00:42:58,119
Speaker 4: maybe my problems.

742
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:04,839
Speaker 1: I tend to think that the burden for Max in

743
00:43:04,879 --> 00:43:10,759
Speaker 1: your relationship was that you didn't bring things up, and

744
00:43:10,799 --> 00:43:13,199
Speaker 1: I think that it became a burden because it became

745
00:43:13,359 --> 00:43:18,919
Speaker 1: all about him. And on the one hand, I think

746
00:43:18,959 --> 00:43:22,119
Speaker 1: that he wanted to have somebody who was very supportive

747
00:43:22,159 --> 00:43:24,119
Speaker 1: of what he was going through with the OCD. But

748
00:43:24,199 --> 00:43:26,719
Speaker 1: on the other hand, I think there was also a

749
00:43:26,759 --> 00:43:29,159
Speaker 1: part of him that wanted you to show up in

750
00:43:29,199 --> 00:43:33,519
Speaker 1: the relationship, so it wasn't all about him, and the

751
00:43:33,559 --> 00:43:36,959
Speaker 1: two of you never had the tools to discuss things

752
00:43:36,999 --> 00:43:40,439
Speaker 1: in that way. But you have an opportunity now to

753
00:43:40,559 --> 00:43:45,599
Speaker 1: see that relationships thrive when both people are fully present

754
00:43:46,279 --> 00:43:48,159
Speaker 1: and it's not about one person or the other.

755
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:52,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's very true. I think in my

756
00:43:52,559 --> 00:43:57,399
Speaker 4: mind I was supporting Max by being patient or listening

757
00:43:57,759 --> 00:44:03,879
Speaker 4: or being there for him in those moments, but I

758
00:44:03,959 --> 00:44:07,679
Speaker 4: never really gave him the opportunity to do that for me,

759
00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:11,119
Speaker 4: or when I did, it wasn't fully the truth.

760
00:44:11,199 --> 00:44:13,879
Speaker 1: Maybe right. So you have this idea that if you

761
00:44:13,959 --> 00:44:17,519
Speaker 1: bring things up, the relationship will break, And what I'm

762
00:44:17,559 --> 00:44:20,919
Speaker 1: saying is if you don't bring things up, the relationship

763
00:44:20,919 --> 00:44:21,439
Speaker 1: will break.

764
00:44:22,879 --> 00:44:24,239
Speaker 4: Yeah. I never thought about it that way.

765
00:44:24,759 --> 00:44:27,479
Speaker 3: And you said you're not quite sure why Max broke

766
00:44:27,559 --> 00:44:30,599
Speaker 3: up with you, But the reality for Max was that

767
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:35,759
Speaker 3: his OCD was practically the entire relationship. It did take

768
00:44:35,839 --> 00:44:38,519
Speaker 3: all the air out of the room and there was

769
00:44:38,559 --> 00:44:43,039
Speaker 3: no balance. You mentioned your anxiety and your depression. But

770
00:44:43,119 --> 00:44:45,879
Speaker 3: you mentioned them very fleetingly earlier on when we were

771
00:44:45,919 --> 00:44:49,399
Speaker 3: talking here, and I think that's probably the representation they

772
00:44:49,439 --> 00:44:51,839
Speaker 3: got in the relationship with Max as well. They were known,

773
00:44:52,039 --> 00:44:55,439
Speaker 3: but they weren't really brought up, and so your emotional

774
00:44:55,479 --> 00:45:00,919
Speaker 3: struggles were not there other than your emotional struggles about

775
00:45:01,319 --> 00:45:04,639
Speaker 3: Max's emotional struggles. And so for him, he's in a

776
00:45:04,679 --> 00:45:10,159
Speaker 3: relationship with someone who's managing his issues and keep saying

777
00:45:10,159 --> 00:45:11,919
Speaker 3: to him, this is really hard to manage. Can you

778
00:45:11,959 --> 00:45:13,999
Speaker 3: get more help because this is really really hard for

779
00:45:14,039 --> 00:45:15,999
Speaker 3: me to manage, and he doesn't get more help. But

780
00:45:16,079 --> 00:45:18,679
Speaker 3: then part of why the breakup probably came to him

781
00:45:18,799 --> 00:45:21,359
Speaker 3: was because he didn't have solutions there. He didn't want

782
00:45:21,399 --> 00:45:23,239
Speaker 3: to get more help, and he knew that all he

783
00:45:23,279 --> 00:45:25,199
Speaker 3: was hearing from you was that it's too much, it's

784
00:45:25,199 --> 00:45:27,919
Speaker 3: too much, it's too much. So he just took the

785
00:45:27,959 --> 00:45:30,319
Speaker 3: executive decision then this is just not going to work.

786
00:45:31,119 --> 00:45:33,639
Speaker 4: Yeah, I never thought about it that way.

787
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:36,159
Speaker 1: That makes a lot of sense, And I think what

788
00:45:36,279 --> 00:45:38,039
Speaker 1: we don't want to see happen here is that there's

789
00:45:38,079 --> 00:45:42,719
Speaker 1: a role reversal where in the first relationship, Max was

790
00:45:42,759 --> 00:45:44,719
Speaker 1: having all these issues, but he wouldn't really deal with it,

791
00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:48,359
Speaker 1: wouldn't really talk about it, and he just brought his symptoms,

792
00:45:48,479 --> 00:45:50,639
Speaker 1: but he wouldn't really talk about what was underneath it.

793
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:53,039
Speaker 1: And we don't want to see that happen with Lucas,

794
00:45:53,079 --> 00:45:55,119
Speaker 1: where Lucas is coming to you and saying, hey, what's

795
00:45:55,159 --> 00:45:58,519
Speaker 1: going on? Talk to me and you're not really talking

796
00:45:58,559 --> 00:46:03,879
Speaker 1: about what's happening and what you're doing to help manage it.

797
00:46:03,999 --> 00:46:06,359
Speaker 1: You can share, hey, I'm working on this in therapy.

798
00:46:06,399 --> 00:46:08,879
Speaker 1: You don't have to tell them all the details, but

799
00:46:08,919 --> 00:46:11,599
Speaker 1: to really be present and not feel like, well, if

800
00:46:11,679 --> 00:46:14,119
Speaker 1: I tell him, it's going to burden him and that's

801
00:46:14,319 --> 00:46:15,639
Speaker 1: just going to push him away.

802
00:46:16,319 --> 00:46:21,599
Speaker 4: Yeah. I appreciate when he can be vulnerable and tell

803
00:46:21,639 --> 00:46:26,359
Speaker 4: me what he's going through because he's able to talk

804
00:46:26,399 --> 00:46:31,119
Speaker 4: about it so freely, and I really admire that. And

805
00:46:31,159 --> 00:46:35,959
Speaker 4: he's given me no reason why I think that he

806
00:46:36,039 --> 00:46:38,479
Speaker 4: wouldn't be willing to do that for me as well.

807
00:46:39,519 --> 00:46:41,919
Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit more about what

808
00:46:41,959 --> 00:46:45,319
Speaker 1: I'm going to call intrusive thoughts since that's what Max had,

809
00:46:45,599 --> 00:46:48,359
Speaker 1: The intrusive thoughts that you have when you're with Lucas

810
00:46:48,439 --> 00:46:50,879
Speaker 1: that get in the way of you being in this

811
00:46:50,999 --> 00:46:52,479
Speaker 1: relationship in a comfortable way.

812
00:46:53,079 --> 00:46:57,159
Speaker 4: There have been times with Lucas that he will ask

813
00:46:57,199 --> 00:47:00,719
Speaker 4: me how I'm doing, and I'll get instantly annoyed, or

814
00:47:01,879 --> 00:47:04,279
Speaker 4: maybe he's a little too much in my face and

815
00:47:04,319 --> 00:47:06,679
Speaker 4: I just don't know how to react, and so my

816
00:47:06,839 --> 00:47:08,759
Speaker 4: instant thought is to be like, this isn't going to

817
00:47:08,839 --> 00:47:11,719
Speaker 4: work or I can't handle this.

818
00:47:12,079 --> 00:47:14,119
Speaker 3: What's an example of him being in your face?

819
00:47:14,519 --> 00:47:17,999
Speaker 4: It's literally just leaning in for a kiss or being

820
00:47:18,079 --> 00:47:23,279
Speaker 4: close close proximity to my face, Like it's not it's

821
00:47:23,359 --> 00:47:25,279
Speaker 4: not or anything aggressive or anything like that.

822
00:47:25,399 --> 00:47:27,679
Speaker 3: Oh, it's nice in your face, not the bad in

823
00:47:27,799 --> 00:47:28,319
Speaker 3: your face.

824
00:47:28,599 --> 00:47:31,999
Speaker 1: Right, So all of this sounds like you're trying to

825
00:47:32,839 --> 00:47:36,839
Speaker 1: protect your own space. But in your letter you talk

826
00:47:36,919 --> 00:47:39,919
Speaker 1: about I'm worried that the other shoe's going to drop,

827
00:47:40,959 --> 00:47:43,279
Speaker 1: that he's going to leave me. So I think you're

828
00:47:43,279 --> 00:47:46,399
Speaker 1: doing all these things to protect yourself, like, oh, that's

829
00:47:46,479 --> 00:47:49,119
Speaker 1: too close, that really nice gesture coming over to kiss me,

830
00:47:49,159 --> 00:47:52,159
Speaker 1: that that normally would feel really good, feels a little

831
00:47:52,199 --> 00:47:57,039
Speaker 1: scary because you don't want to get too close or

832
00:47:57,039 --> 00:48:00,799
Speaker 1: too invested, because you wrote in your letter, I'm always

833
00:48:00,839 --> 00:48:04,039
Speaker 1: worried that something will go wrong, So can you talk

834
00:48:04,119 --> 00:48:06,239
Speaker 1: more about that, because I think that's what this is

835
00:48:06,279 --> 00:48:07,359
Speaker 1: really about.

836
00:48:07,559 --> 00:48:11,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's very sure. I think I'm afraid

837
00:48:11,359 --> 00:48:13,479
Speaker 4: to get too close because I don't want to get

838
00:48:13,559 --> 00:48:20,199
Speaker 4: hurt again. I'm afraid to show Lucas the deeper parts

839
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:24,639
Speaker 4: of me because I'm afraid that it's going to be

840
00:48:24,759 --> 00:48:28,239
Speaker 4: met with rejection. I even had a dream last night

841
00:48:28,319 --> 00:48:31,839
Speaker 4: that Lucas broke up with me, and I was really

842
00:48:31,959 --> 00:48:35,159
Speaker 4: upset and sad about it, and I reached out to

843
00:48:35,199 --> 00:48:37,039
Speaker 4: him today and told him about it, and he said,

844
00:48:37,039 --> 00:48:40,999
Speaker 4: I love you so much, I wouldn't do that. But

845
00:48:41,559 --> 00:48:45,039
Speaker 4: I think those are just fears that are just there

846
00:48:45,199 --> 00:48:51,519
Speaker 4: because of being blindsided by Max after such a tumultuous relationship.

847
00:48:51,879 --> 00:48:54,599
Speaker 1: I think those fears are there because of being blindsided

848
00:48:54,599 --> 00:48:57,679
Speaker 1: by your parents. And I think that there was a

849
00:48:57,719 --> 00:49:00,919
Speaker 1: way that Max worked very well for you because it

850
00:49:00,999 --> 00:49:04,879
Speaker 1: kept you so safe to always be in the position

851
00:49:04,959 --> 00:49:07,439
Speaker 1: of you are not making me happy, I might break

852
00:49:07,519 --> 00:49:12,799
Speaker 1: up with you, which gives you power and keeps you

853
00:49:13,039 --> 00:49:15,959
Speaker 1: from being in that vulnerable position of you might not

854
00:49:17,159 --> 00:49:19,719
Speaker 1: want to stay with me. How could you not want

855
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:21,519
Speaker 1: to stay with me if I put up with all

856
00:49:21,559 --> 00:49:24,079
Speaker 1: of your OCD day in and day out for five

857
00:49:24,119 --> 00:49:29,839
Speaker 1: and a half years, not realizing that that doesn't work

858
00:49:29,839 --> 00:49:35,839
Speaker 1: for either person. And so as you think about this

859
00:49:35,959 --> 00:49:40,959
Speaker 1: abandonment fear that permeates your relationship with Lucas to the

860
00:49:40,959 --> 00:49:42,999
Speaker 1: point that you're dreaming of him breaking up with you,

861
00:49:44,239 --> 00:49:48,559
Speaker 1: it sounds like getting in touch with some of those

862
00:49:48,559 --> 00:49:52,119
Speaker 1: feelings that maybe you haven't expressed fully about what it

863
00:49:52,159 --> 00:49:53,959
Speaker 1: was like to pack up those two trash bags and

864
00:49:54,039 --> 00:49:57,759
Speaker 1: leave your house might be really helpful now that you're

865
00:49:57,759 --> 00:49:59,239
Speaker 1: in a more balanced relationship.

866
00:50:00,199 --> 00:50:03,959
Speaker 3: Yeah, I do want to add one thing. There was

867
00:50:03,999 --> 00:50:07,959
Speaker 3: the moment where your parents rejected you and kicked you

868
00:50:07,999 --> 00:50:11,439
Speaker 3: out of the house, and there were the thousands of

869
00:50:11,519 --> 00:50:15,119
Speaker 3: moments before you told them that you worried that they might.

870
00:50:16,559 --> 00:50:19,999
Speaker 3: So that's why that's so impactful. It happened once, but

871
00:50:20,199 --> 00:50:23,599
Speaker 3: you worry that it would for probably many years before

872
00:50:23,599 --> 00:50:27,639
Speaker 3: it actually did, and then it did. And that is

873
00:50:27,679 --> 00:50:28,439
Speaker 3: going to leave a mark.

874
00:50:28,999 --> 00:50:31,719
Speaker 1: And there's a way when we talk about OCD that

875
00:50:32,359 --> 00:50:38,039
Speaker 1: when we imagine the horrible thing happening, it almost protects us.

876
00:50:38,479 --> 00:50:41,679
Speaker 1: If I can imagine Lucas breaking up with me, even

877
00:50:41,759 --> 00:50:44,559
Speaker 1: though it feels bad, at least I'm prepared in my mind,

878
00:50:46,399 --> 00:50:48,879
Speaker 1: if I don't get too close to him, at least

879
00:50:48,879 --> 00:50:52,719
Speaker 1: it won't be so bad. So there's almost like an

880
00:50:52,759 --> 00:50:58,079
Speaker 1: OCD like process going on with you, where you're doing

881
00:50:58,159 --> 00:51:02,479
Speaker 1: everything you can to protect yourself against what you see

882
00:51:02,519 --> 00:51:03,519
Speaker 1: is almost inevitable.

883
00:51:05,199 --> 00:51:06,999
Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely.

884
00:51:08,359 --> 00:51:13,079
Speaker 1: What is your relationship like with Max's family?

885
00:51:13,159 --> 00:51:13,439
Speaker 3: Now?

886
00:51:13,639 --> 00:51:15,039
Speaker 1: You said you're still in touch with them?

887
00:51:16,799 --> 00:51:21,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, I am really close with his sister. I consider

888
00:51:21,839 --> 00:51:29,039
Speaker 4: her my sister. Still, we visit together pretty frequently, and

889
00:51:29,839 --> 00:51:32,879
Speaker 4: I still talk to his mom pretty regularly and just

890
00:51:32,959 --> 00:51:36,399
Speaker 4: check in see how she's doing. They all still consider

891
00:51:36,479 --> 00:51:41,119
Speaker 4: me a part of their family, and I still consider

892
00:51:41,159 --> 00:51:41,959
Speaker 4: them my family.

893
00:51:42,359 --> 00:51:44,239
Speaker 1: So the catastrophe didn't happen.

894
00:51:44,879 --> 00:51:45,679
Speaker 3: No, I did not.

895
00:51:46,199 --> 00:51:48,079
Speaker 1: You thought that if you broke up you would lose

896
00:51:48,079 --> 00:51:51,519
Speaker 1: this entire family, And you have a cordial relationship with Max,

897
00:51:52,079 --> 00:51:54,679
Speaker 1: and you still have this lovely relationship with his family,

898
00:51:55,319 --> 00:51:56,679
Speaker 1: and you see the dog right.

899
00:51:57,239 --> 00:51:57,959
Speaker 3: Yeah.

900
00:51:57,999 --> 00:52:01,919
Speaker 1: What about Lucas's family? What is your relationship like with them?

901
00:52:02,519 --> 00:52:08,119
Speaker 4: He has a pretty similar experience as me coming out

902
00:52:08,159 --> 00:52:11,799
Speaker 4: to his family, so he is not super close with

903
00:52:11,839 --> 00:52:16,279
Speaker 4: his parents and one of his brothers. I have met

904
00:52:16,799 --> 00:52:21,279
Speaker 4: his other brother and his sister in law and they're wonderful,

905
00:52:21,519 --> 00:52:22,319
Speaker 4: they're really sweet.

906
00:52:23,039 --> 00:52:25,919
Speaker 1: What has happened in the relationship with your family since

907
00:52:25,919 --> 00:52:27,119
Speaker 1: you started dating Lucas.

908
00:52:27,879 --> 00:52:32,399
Speaker 4: I still haven't told my family that I'm dating Lucas.

909
00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:40,679
Speaker 4: I think because I am enjoying my relationship with Lucas

910
00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:43,639
Speaker 4: and I feel like bringing it up to my family

911
00:52:43,679 --> 00:52:48,639
Speaker 4: will sort of taint that in a way. And I

912
00:52:48,759 --> 00:52:52,599
Speaker 4: feel like my family and I's kind of in a

913
00:52:52,639 --> 00:52:55,639
Speaker 4: better place right now because they think that I'm single,

914
00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:59,559
Speaker 4: and so in a weird way, we're able to kind

915
00:52:59,599 --> 00:53:06,679
Speaker 4: of talk without worrying about another partner that I might have.

916
00:53:06,999 --> 00:53:08,879
Speaker 1: So being single makes you less gay?

917
00:53:09,759 --> 00:53:13,519
Speaker 4: Well, my dad did ask me recently, where are you

918
00:53:13,599 --> 00:53:15,879
Speaker 4: with the whole gay thing. I said, I'm not really

919
00:53:15,879 --> 00:53:18,319
Speaker 4: sure what you're asking. I'm still gay, if that's what

920
00:53:18,359 --> 00:53:20,999
Speaker 4: you're asking. And he said, so you really don't think

921
00:53:20,999 --> 00:53:23,319
Speaker 4: that it's a choice, And I said, no, it's definitely

922
00:53:23,439 --> 00:53:26,319
Speaker 4: not a choice. And that was kind of the end

923
00:53:26,319 --> 00:53:29,159
Speaker 4: of the conversation. But that's how it's always been, is

924
00:53:29,279 --> 00:53:31,039
Speaker 4: every time they would bring it up to me, it

925
00:53:31,119 --> 00:53:35,399
Speaker 4: was very this is really what you're choosing, This is

926
00:53:35,439 --> 00:53:40,439
Speaker 4: against what God wants, and this is not what we

927
00:53:40,479 --> 00:53:41,119
Speaker 4: want for you.

928
00:53:41,439 --> 00:53:44,919
Speaker 3: In your future. It remains hurtful that they have to

929
00:53:45,039 --> 00:53:50,319
Speaker 3: keep telling you in a consistent, practically OCD way, let

930
00:53:50,439 --> 00:53:52,839
Speaker 3: us know when you're done with being gay, and you

931
00:53:52,879 --> 00:53:54,999
Speaker 3: know that it's still not okay with us, and it's

932
00:53:54,999 --> 00:53:57,319
Speaker 3: still not okay with our God and all of those things.

933
00:53:57,399 --> 00:54:00,399
Speaker 3: I mean, it's it's very unfortunate if it keeps coming up.

934
00:54:01,039 --> 00:54:04,239
Speaker 4: I feel bad not telling my family about Lucas because

935
00:54:04,279 --> 00:54:07,199
Speaker 4: he is such a great person, but they're not going

936
00:54:07,279 --> 00:54:09,719
Speaker 4: to see him the way that I see him. They're

937
00:54:09,719 --> 00:54:11,599
Speaker 4: not going to see him as a great person. They're

938
00:54:11,599 --> 00:54:16,839
Speaker 4: not going to see him as somebody who makes me happy.

939
00:54:17,159 --> 00:54:20,519
Speaker 4: They're going to see him as somebody that's taking me

940
00:54:20,599 --> 00:54:26,399
Speaker 4: away from my path to righteousness or God.

941
00:54:26,759 --> 00:54:28,239
Speaker 1: I think that the ways in which you have to

942
00:54:28,279 --> 00:54:33,559
Speaker 1: protect yourself from the hurt from your parents bleeds into

943
00:54:33,599 --> 00:54:35,919
Speaker 1: the way you feel like you have to protect yourself

944
00:54:36,399 --> 00:54:41,239
Speaker 1: from Lucas, And sometimes you conflate the two. You're holding

945
00:54:41,279 --> 00:54:44,199
Speaker 1: back with your parents because they will say hurtful things,

946
00:54:44,959 --> 00:54:47,639
Speaker 1: but you're holding back with Lucas because you're afraid that

947
00:54:47,759 --> 00:54:50,239
Speaker 1: he is also going to reject you, and we want

948
00:54:50,279 --> 00:54:58,119
Speaker 1: to make sure that doesn't happen. We have some advice

949
00:54:58,159 --> 00:55:00,679
Speaker 1: we'd like to give you. We've been thinking about your situation,

950
00:55:01,839 --> 00:55:06,079
Speaker 1: and we've been seeing a lot of parallels between the

951
00:55:06,159 --> 00:55:09,199
Speaker 1: relationship with Max and the relationship with Lucas, but with

952
00:55:09,359 --> 00:55:13,479
Speaker 1: the roles a little bit reversed. And so what we'd

953
00:55:13,519 --> 00:55:14,919
Speaker 1: like you to do is we'd like you to have

954
00:55:14,959 --> 00:55:20,439
Speaker 1: a conversation with Lucas where you say to him that,

955
00:55:21,479 --> 00:55:23,519
Speaker 1: even though I've told you a lot about my relationship

956
00:55:23,599 --> 00:55:25,319
Speaker 1: with Max and how much I had to take care

957
00:55:25,359 --> 00:55:28,199
Speaker 1: of him, I think in some ways it was very

958
00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:31,919
Speaker 1: convenient for me because I didn't really have to deal

959
00:55:31,959 --> 00:55:37,199
Speaker 1: with my own anxieties about rejection and love. And I

960
00:55:37,239 --> 00:55:41,999
Speaker 1: don't want to become the Max to you in our relationship.

961
00:55:43,479 --> 00:55:46,079
Speaker 1: And there might be times when you come close to

962
00:55:46,119 --> 00:55:50,439
Speaker 1: me and even though I really really want that, I

963
00:55:50,519 --> 00:55:54,319
Speaker 1: get a little bit scared and you might feel a

964
00:55:54,319 --> 00:55:59,159
Speaker 1: little bit rejected by me. And if that happens, please

965
00:55:59,239 --> 00:56:01,999
Speaker 1: let me know, because I don't want you to feel

966
00:56:02,959 --> 00:56:05,639
Speaker 1: that I am not wanting all of this delicious love

967
00:56:06,159 --> 00:56:10,239
Speaker 1: that you were bringing to me. You're just opening the

968
00:56:10,279 --> 00:56:13,519
Speaker 1: door for him to have a dialogue about that when

969
00:56:13,559 --> 00:56:18,239
Speaker 1: he perceives that, because he will, he'll notice it, and

970
00:56:18,279 --> 00:56:21,199
Speaker 1: then we want you to do something about it. And

971
00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:24,399
Speaker 1: in your relationship with Max, you said the reason that

972
00:56:24,439 --> 00:56:26,519
Speaker 1: he didn't want to go to therapy was because a

973
00:56:26,559 --> 00:56:30,119
Speaker 1: lot of the treatment for OCD involves exposure to the

974
00:56:30,279 --> 00:56:34,559
Speaker 1: very thing that makes the person anxious. We want you

975
00:56:34,599 --> 00:56:37,959
Speaker 1: to do a little bit of exposure therapy here, and

976
00:56:38,039 --> 00:56:41,839
Speaker 1: what we mean by that is when Lucas comes toward

977
00:56:41,879 --> 00:56:44,039
Speaker 1: you and you feel a little bit overwhelmed, it comes

978
00:56:44,039 --> 00:56:47,119
Speaker 1: to kiss you and you feel like, uh, oh, I'm

979
00:56:47,119 --> 00:56:52,199
Speaker 1: feeling a little vulnerable here. Instead of moving away from that,

980
00:56:53,439 --> 00:56:56,519
Speaker 1: we want you to move toward that, but we want

981
00:56:56,519 --> 00:56:58,359
Speaker 1: you to do it in a specific way.

982
00:56:58,599 --> 00:57:01,239
Speaker 3: I don't know how much you know about exposure therapy,

983
00:57:01,359 --> 00:57:03,399
Speaker 3: but typically, let's say, if somebody is trying to get

984
00:57:03,439 --> 00:57:06,319
Speaker 3: over a fear of snakes, then into the snake pit

985
00:57:06,799 --> 00:57:09,439
Speaker 3: they go, and it's like, ah, snakes, but it's it's

986
00:57:09,479 --> 00:57:11,839
Speaker 3: all very very passive. You know, they're just sitting there

987
00:57:11,879 --> 00:57:14,719
Speaker 3: with snakes doing what snakes do. And the thing about

988
00:57:14,759 --> 00:57:18,239
Speaker 3: anxiety is that we feel better when we're in control.

989
00:57:19,039 --> 00:57:21,999
Speaker 3: So we want you, as part of your exposure therapy,

990
00:57:22,679 --> 00:57:25,239
Speaker 3: to lean in to the love when it makes you

991
00:57:25,239 --> 00:57:27,519
Speaker 3: a little anxious, but to do it in a way

992
00:57:27,519 --> 00:57:30,159
Speaker 3: in which you have control, which with Lucas would look

993
00:57:30,239 --> 00:57:33,159
Speaker 3: like he gets into your face, that you actually sit

994
00:57:33,279 --> 00:57:36,799
Speaker 3: up taller or stand taller. You put your hands on

995
00:57:36,919 --> 00:57:40,719
Speaker 3: his shoulders, You control the closeness. You bring him in

996
00:57:41,519 --> 00:57:45,079
Speaker 3: to you for the embrace, you bring him into you

997
00:57:45,479 --> 00:57:49,639
Speaker 3: for the kiss. So you do the exposure therapy to yourself,

998
00:57:50,279 --> 00:57:52,479
Speaker 3: but in a way that you actually have control, which

999
00:57:52,519 --> 00:57:56,279
Speaker 3: makes it easier to tolerate. And each time he comes

1000
00:57:56,279 --> 00:57:59,199
Speaker 3: into your space after that conversation and you feel yourself

1001
00:57:59,199 --> 00:58:03,279
Speaker 3: having an anxious reaction or feeling flooded or overwhelmed, you

1002
00:58:03,439 --> 00:58:07,079
Speaker 3: lean in to the love and it's exposure therapy. It's

1003
00:58:07,119 --> 00:58:09,799
Speaker 3: going to be hard, but the more you do it,

1004
00:58:10,199 --> 00:58:14,159
Speaker 3: the quicker the anxiety associated with it goes down.

1005
00:58:15,479 --> 00:58:17,799
Speaker 1: And what happens is the more you're exposed to it

1006
00:58:18,359 --> 00:58:22,799
Speaker 1: and nothing catastrophic happens, the more you can relax when

1007
00:58:22,839 --> 00:58:23,559
Speaker 1: it happens again.

1008
00:58:24,279 --> 00:58:26,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, there is one more piece. You were thinking about

1009
00:58:26,879 --> 00:58:30,279
Speaker 3: your parents and your relationship with them. You wrote them

1010
00:58:30,279 --> 00:58:34,719
Speaker 3: the letter initially, and we understand why it was hard

1011
00:58:34,759 --> 00:58:37,399
Speaker 3: to get a word in and you, Mum would quote scripture.

1012
00:58:38,279 --> 00:58:40,079
Speaker 3: You know it would be a difficult conversation to have,

1013
00:58:40,119 --> 00:58:42,119
Speaker 3: so let's just get all my feelings out in an email.

1014
00:58:42,479 --> 00:58:44,199
Speaker 3: We think that might be a good approach this time

1015
00:58:44,279 --> 00:58:46,239
Speaker 3: as well, but we think there needs to be something

1016
00:58:46,239 --> 00:58:52,599
Speaker 3: communicated about. Look, I'm in fact as offended by your

1017
00:58:52,679 --> 00:58:59,279
Speaker 3: views religiously as you are by mine, because in my

1018
00:59:00,359 --> 00:59:04,199
Speaker 3: religious views and my philosophy, parenting is a virtue that

1019
00:59:04,239 --> 00:59:10,039
Speaker 3: should surpass all and so is unconditional love. And I

1020
00:59:10,079 --> 00:59:15,799
Speaker 3: am not interested in hearing any more that you think

1021
00:59:15,839 --> 00:59:18,479
Speaker 3: I'm going to go tell that you think who I

1022
00:59:18,559 --> 00:59:22,639
Speaker 3: am is wrong. I am not interested in hearing it.

1023
00:59:23,479 --> 00:59:25,879
Speaker 3: And if we're to have a relationship, it has to

1024
00:59:25,919 --> 00:59:30,759
Speaker 3: be one that starts at the basic respect of who

1025
00:59:31,039 --> 00:59:35,159
Speaker 3: I am as a person. And I know you might

1026
00:59:35,199 --> 00:59:38,559
Speaker 3: have different feelings about it, have them, I do not

1027
00:59:38,759 --> 00:59:42,559
Speaker 3: want to hear them. And one day I'm going to

1028
00:59:42,559 --> 00:59:44,719
Speaker 3: find love again and I'm going to get married, and

1029
00:59:44,999 --> 00:59:49,079
Speaker 3: you are my family. I will invite you to that wedding,

1030
00:59:50,039 --> 00:59:51,919
Speaker 3: and if you want to have a relationship with me,

1031
00:59:52,399 --> 00:59:56,639
Speaker 3: you should come to it. Because that's what loving families do.

1032
00:59:57,239 --> 01:00:01,639
Speaker 3: They put their differences aside to celebrate the happiness of

1033
01:00:01,679 --> 01:00:05,959
Speaker 3: one another. And that's what I'm going to expect, but

1034
01:00:06,399 --> 01:00:09,919
Speaker 3: going forward, I do not want to hear from any

1035
01:00:09,959 --> 01:00:14,119
Speaker 3: of you that you have judgment about who I am

1036
01:00:14,319 --> 01:00:14,999
Speaker 3: as a person.

1037
01:00:15,919 --> 01:00:18,319
Speaker 1: And this is going to go to your entire family,

1038
01:00:18,679 --> 01:00:22,479
Speaker 1: including your siblings. I'm thinking about your sister who wasn't

1039
01:00:22,479 --> 01:00:25,479
Speaker 1: going to come to your wedding. It's for all of them,

1040
01:00:26,599 --> 01:00:30,239
Speaker 1: and what we'd like you to do is not have

1041
01:00:30,599 --> 01:00:35,959
Speaker 1: expectations around how they respond, but we'd like you to

1042
01:00:36,039 --> 01:00:40,159
Speaker 1: think about what it feels like to be able to

1043
01:00:40,199 --> 01:00:44,039
Speaker 1: say that so directly to them. You're not asking them

1044
01:00:44,039 --> 01:00:48,639
Speaker 1: to change who they are, but you're asking them not

1045
01:00:48,799 --> 01:00:52,799
Speaker 1: to say to you, change who you are. And that's

1046
01:00:52,799 --> 01:00:57,279
Speaker 1: a starting point. And so what you're asking for is reciprocity,

1047
01:00:57,399 --> 01:01:00,999
Speaker 1: which you didn't have with Max because you didn't ask

1048
01:01:01,079 --> 01:01:03,559
Speaker 1: for it, and we'd like you to ask for it

1049
01:01:03,679 --> 01:01:04,239
Speaker 1: this time.

1050
01:01:06,399 --> 01:01:07,479
Speaker 4: Yes, you're very right.

1051
01:01:15,159 --> 01:01:18,279
Speaker 1: I think when he was with Max, he found a

1052
01:01:18,319 --> 01:01:20,599
Speaker 1: relationship that would make him feel safe because you wouldn't

1053
01:01:20,639 --> 01:01:23,319
Speaker 1: have to deal with his own issues that he was

1054
01:01:23,319 --> 01:01:26,679
Speaker 1: bringing into it, but it wasn't necessarily satisfying. And now

1055
01:01:26,719 --> 01:01:29,719
Speaker 1: with Lucas, he's in a relationship that could be satisfying,

1056
01:01:30,199 --> 01:01:33,479
Speaker 1: but it doesn't necessarily feel safe because he's going to

1057
01:01:33,519 --> 01:01:37,759
Speaker 1: have to manage some of this abandonment. And I think

1058
01:01:37,759 --> 01:01:39,799
Speaker 1: it's going to go really well with Lucas this week.

1059
01:01:40,119 --> 01:01:42,759
Speaker 1: Lucas sounds like somebody who's really able to offer him

1060
01:01:42,799 --> 01:01:46,239
Speaker 1: something that he didn't have with his parents and didn't

1061
01:01:46,239 --> 01:01:49,239
Speaker 1: have with Max in the same way, and I think

1062
01:01:49,279 --> 01:01:51,039
Speaker 1: it's going to be tricky with his family.

1063
01:01:51,559 --> 01:01:53,639
Speaker 3: I think it's going to go well with Lucas in

1064
01:01:53,679 --> 01:01:55,719
Speaker 3: the sense that he will do it and Lucas will

1065
01:01:55,759 --> 01:01:59,279
Speaker 3: respond well. I think though, that he's still going to

1066
01:01:59,279 --> 01:02:01,839
Speaker 3: feel anxious, because the idea of doing that is you

1067
01:02:01,959 --> 01:02:04,159
Speaker 3: keep doing it to beat down the anxiety. But at

1068
01:02:04,199 --> 01:02:06,399
Speaker 3: first the anxiety will be there, so he'll be doing

1069
01:02:06,439 --> 01:02:08,399
Speaker 3: the right thing and it won't feel like he's doing

1070
01:02:08,439 --> 01:02:10,159
Speaker 3: the right thing. So I just hope he can keep

1071
01:02:10,159 --> 01:02:12,359
Speaker 3: at it despite that, because that's how it is. At

1072
01:02:12,359 --> 01:02:14,439
Speaker 3: the beginning. You're doing the thing you need, but your

1073
01:02:14,439 --> 01:02:16,399
Speaker 3: insights are telling you it's not because that's what you've

1074
01:02:16,439 --> 01:02:16,999
Speaker 3: been avoiding.

1075
01:02:17,119 --> 01:02:19,479
Speaker 1: And that's why we tell people do the opposite. Normally

1076
01:02:19,519 --> 01:02:21,799
Speaker 1: we say listen to your gut, do what your gut says,

1077
01:02:21,839 --> 01:02:24,519
Speaker 1: and when somebody is in this situation, we say your

1078
01:02:24,559 --> 01:02:26,759
Speaker 1: gut is lying to you. Do the opposite.

1079
01:02:26,919 --> 01:02:28,799
Speaker 3: I actually say much more your gut is lying to

1080
01:02:28,839 --> 01:02:30,559
Speaker 3: you than I do. Follow your gut. I don't say

1081
01:02:31,079 --> 01:02:33,319
Speaker 3: follow your gut a lot. I always say like no, no,

1082
01:02:34,239 --> 01:02:38,839
Speaker 3: don't listen to that. I think with his parents it's

1083
01:02:38,839 --> 01:02:42,319
Speaker 3: going to be much more problematic because I think they're

1084
01:02:42,359 --> 01:02:44,919
Speaker 3: going to have a hard time hearing it. I think

1085
01:02:44,959 --> 01:02:48,519
Speaker 3: they feel righteous and they feel that the perspective is

1086
01:02:48,519 --> 01:02:51,479
Speaker 3: correct and his is incorrect in every possible way. And

1087
01:02:51,519 --> 01:02:54,559
Speaker 3: I hope he can stand up and fight for what

1088
01:02:54,679 --> 01:02:55,479
Speaker 3: he deserves.

1089
01:02:55,799 --> 01:02:57,359
Speaker 1: Either way, I think this is going to be a

1090
01:02:57,359 --> 01:03:05,999
Speaker 1: good experience for him. You're listening to Dear Therapists for

1091
01:03:06,119 --> 01:03:09,439
Speaker 1: My Heart Radio. We'll be back after a short break.

1092
01:03:21,439 --> 01:03:23,479
Speaker 3: So we heard back from Doug and we asked him

1093
01:03:23,519 --> 01:03:25,599
Speaker 3: to do a couple of things, both of which involve

1094
01:03:25,839 --> 01:03:28,879
Speaker 3: him taking control. So let's see how that went for him.

1095
01:03:29,159 --> 01:03:32,679
Speaker 4: Hey, Laurie and Guy, So I've been working on opening

1096
01:03:32,799 --> 01:03:34,879
Speaker 4: up and leaning into the love that Lucas has been

1097
01:03:34,879 --> 01:03:38,759
Speaker 4: showing me. We had a really open and honest conversation

1098
01:03:39,039 --> 01:03:41,319
Speaker 4: about how I can feel overwhelmed at times when he

1099
01:03:41,359 --> 01:03:44,639
Speaker 4: comes too close because I'm afraid of being too intimate

1100
01:03:44,679 --> 01:03:48,079
Speaker 4: and vulnerable with him. We talked about my family and

1101
01:03:48,079 --> 01:03:50,479
Speaker 4: I got to share with him how rejected I felt

1102
01:03:50,479 --> 01:03:52,279
Speaker 4: by them, and how I was carrying a lot of

1103
01:03:52,279 --> 01:03:56,399
Speaker 4: those fears and anxiety into our relationship. I was really

1104
01:03:56,439 --> 01:03:59,879
Speaker 4: nervous to have this conversation, but Lucas listened and was

1105
01:03:59,919 --> 01:04:03,439
Speaker 4: so supportive and understanding. I've also been working on the

1106
01:04:03,479 --> 01:04:07,439
Speaker 4: exposure piece and taking control in times when I'm feeling anxious.

1107
01:04:08,279 --> 01:04:11,439
Speaker 4: One time, after having this conversation, he noticed me pull

1108
01:04:11,519 --> 01:04:15,159
Speaker 4: away and asked if I was feeling overwhelmed. Normally, I

1109
01:04:15,199 --> 01:04:17,999
Speaker 4: would have brushed those feelings aside and said I was fine,

1110
01:04:18,599 --> 01:04:20,999
Speaker 4: but this time I told him how it was feeling,

1111
01:04:21,159 --> 01:04:24,799
Speaker 4: and it felt so good to voice that. After opening

1112
01:04:24,879 --> 01:04:27,279
Speaker 4: up to Lucas Moore and feeling how supportive and loving

1113
01:04:27,319 --> 01:04:30,359
Speaker 4: he was, through that, I felt so much closer with him.

1114
01:04:30,919 --> 01:04:32,599
Speaker 4: He was also able to be there for me as

1115
01:04:32,639 --> 01:04:35,519
Speaker 4: I worked on the second part of my assignment, writing

1116
01:04:35,519 --> 01:04:39,279
Speaker 4: a letter to my family. This part was really difficult

1117
01:04:39,319 --> 01:04:41,119
Speaker 4: for me, and I put it off as long as

1118
01:04:41,159 --> 01:04:44,319
Speaker 4: I could. I had a really hard time being vulnerable

1119
01:04:44,319 --> 01:04:48,639
Speaker 4: with them and sharing how their words and actions hurt me. Again.

1120
01:04:48,759 --> 01:04:52,399
Speaker 4: My gut reaction was to avoid the confrontation and potential rejection,

1121
01:04:53,039 --> 01:04:56,239
Speaker 4: but I really want things to change. I started off

1122
01:04:56,239 --> 01:04:59,399
Speaker 4: by saying that I appreciated our relationship and that it

1123
01:04:59,439 --> 01:05:01,719
Speaker 4: has gotten better over the years, and that I wanted

1124
01:05:01,719 --> 01:05:04,599
Speaker 4: to continue building on that, but that I also wanted

1125
01:05:04,599 --> 01:05:08,199
Speaker 4: to set some boundaries. I told them I no longer

1126
01:05:08,239 --> 01:05:10,559
Speaker 4: wanted to hear their judge about who I am as

1127
01:05:10,559 --> 01:05:13,599
Speaker 4: a person, and that I'm not interested in hearing any

1128
01:05:13,639 --> 01:05:18,879
Speaker 4: more disrespectful and invalidating questions or comments. I told them

1129
01:05:18,879 --> 01:05:21,399
Speaker 4: that I don't just want to be tolerated. I want

1130
01:05:21,399 --> 01:05:23,999
Speaker 4: to be loved fully for who I am, all the

1131
01:05:24,039 --> 01:05:28,279
Speaker 4: parts of me. I felt incredibly scared to hit that

1132
01:05:28,399 --> 01:05:31,479
Speaker 4: send button, and my anxiety was literally through the roof.

1133
01:05:32,359 --> 01:05:34,999
Speaker 4: After I sent it, Lucas gave me a big hug,

1134
01:05:35,319 --> 01:05:37,559
Speaker 4: a kiss on the cheek, and told me how proud

1135
01:05:37,599 --> 01:05:40,479
Speaker 4: he was of me. It did feel like a huge

1136
01:05:40,479 --> 01:05:43,239
Speaker 4: weight had been lifted off my shoulders, and it also

1137
01:05:43,279 --> 01:05:45,919
Speaker 4: felt really good to not be alone in that moment.

1138
01:05:46,879 --> 01:05:49,759
Speaker 4: I haven't heard back from anyone yet, and even though

1139
01:05:49,759 --> 01:05:52,319
Speaker 4: I'm still really worried about what they'll say and how

1140
01:05:52,359 --> 01:05:55,519
Speaker 4: they'll respond, I'm hopeful that this will be the next

1141
01:05:55,559 --> 01:05:59,519
Speaker 4: step in having a healthier relationship with my family. I know,

1142
01:05:59,679 --> 01:06:02,319
Speaker 4: moving forward, it's still going to be a difficult journey

1143
01:06:02,319 --> 01:06:04,439
Speaker 4: for me to get to a place where I feel

1144
01:06:04,479 --> 01:06:07,999
Speaker 4: more comfortable being vulnerable, but I am committed to doing

1145
01:06:07,999 --> 01:06:11,039
Speaker 4: this work. Thank you again, I appreciate you both.

1146
01:06:15,479 --> 01:06:19,399
Speaker 1: What Doug has come to realize through doing these exercises

1147
01:06:19,679 --> 01:06:21,759
Speaker 1: is what so many of our patients in therapy come

1148
01:06:21,839 --> 01:06:24,599
Speaker 1: to realize, which is that when you try to protect

1149
01:06:24,679 --> 01:06:28,639
Speaker 1: yourself using a method that worked when you were younger,

1150
01:06:29,119 --> 01:06:34,599
Speaker 1: it generally doesn't work when you're older and you have agency.

1151
01:06:35,759 --> 01:06:40,119
Speaker 1: And so when he started talking to Lucas about feeling

1152
01:06:40,159 --> 01:06:45,399
Speaker 1: overwhelmed what happens when he becomes vulnerable, he thought the

1153
01:06:45,439 --> 01:06:48,279
Speaker 1: world would crash down, and you know, Lucas would get

1154
01:06:48,359 --> 01:06:50,559
Speaker 1: rid of him, because that's what happened in his family.

1155
01:06:50,599 --> 01:06:54,319
Speaker 1: You can't talk about these things. But instead Lucas came closer,

1156
01:06:54,359 --> 01:06:56,679
Speaker 1: and not only did he come closer, but he ended

1157
01:06:56,759 --> 01:07:01,559
Speaker 1: up supporting him both in their relationship, but also in

1158
01:07:02,079 --> 01:07:05,559
Speaker 1: what he wanted to say to his family. So it

1159
01:07:05,679 --> 01:07:08,679
Speaker 1: was really a lesson in what happens when we can

1160
01:07:08,719 --> 01:07:12,159
Speaker 1: separate out how we protect ourselves as children and how

1161
01:07:12,159 --> 01:07:14,759
Speaker 1: that doesn't really protect us but actually holds us back

1162
01:07:14,839 --> 01:07:15,519
Speaker 1: as adults.

1163
01:07:15,919 --> 01:07:18,679
Speaker 3: I completely agree, and I think that the fear he

1164
01:07:18,799 --> 01:07:24,199
Speaker 3: had about sending the email to his family was that

1165
01:07:24,239 --> 01:07:28,639
Speaker 3: he knew that if they responded poorly, he would have

1166
01:07:28,679 --> 01:07:32,079
Speaker 3: to draw a line. And I think that the anxiety

1167
01:07:32,159 --> 01:07:34,759
Speaker 3: was because he knew that he had signed up for that,

1168
01:07:34,879 --> 01:07:39,759
Speaker 3: and I believe he will if they respond poorly, and

1169
01:07:39,799 --> 01:07:42,399
Speaker 3: I think they're likely to respond poorly from what I've

1170
01:07:42,439 --> 01:07:45,239
Speaker 3: heard so far, so I really hope if he's listening,

1171
01:07:45,839 --> 01:07:48,999
Speaker 3: he has Lucas around him when he needs to maintain

1172
01:07:49,039 --> 01:07:51,999
Speaker 3: that boundary, and that he does so with the same

1173
01:07:52,039 --> 01:07:54,599
Speaker 3: conviction with which he sent the email and with which

1174
01:07:54,639 --> 01:07:56,119
Speaker 3: he meant every word that he wrote.

1175
01:07:56,359 --> 01:07:58,199
Speaker 1: I think the reason that he was ready now to

1176
01:07:59,279 --> 01:08:03,319
Speaker 1: send that letter with that boundary is that as he

1177
01:08:03,399 --> 01:08:07,719
Speaker 1: becomes more truthful with himself and with the relationships in

1178
01:08:07,759 --> 01:08:11,759
Speaker 1: his life, it's to not be truthful with these other

1179
01:08:11,839 --> 01:08:15,639
Speaker 1: relationships in his family. And he's ready to ask for that.

1180
01:08:16,239 --> 01:08:19,359
Speaker 1: And he has the support of someone who really sees

1181
01:08:19,399 --> 01:08:21,799
Speaker 1: the truth of who he is and is there for him,

1182
01:08:21,839 --> 01:08:24,039
Speaker 1: and I think that makes a big difference, so that

1183
01:08:24,119 --> 01:08:27,079
Speaker 1: no matter what his family does with that letter, he

1184
01:08:27,119 --> 01:08:33,639
Speaker 1: can feel good that he sent it. Hey, fellow travelers,

1185
01:08:34,039 --> 01:08:36,799
Speaker 1: if you're enjoying our podcast each week, don't forget to

1186
01:08:36,839 --> 01:08:39,599
Speaker 1: subscribe for free so that you don't miss any episodes,

1187
01:08:40,039 --> 01:08:42,919
Speaker 1: and please help support Dear Therapists by telling your friends

1188
01:08:42,919 --> 01:08:45,959
Speaker 1: about it and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. Your

1189
01:08:45,959 --> 01:08:48,199
Speaker 1: reviews really help people to find the show.

1190
01:08:48,319 --> 01:08:51,439
Speaker 5: And thanks to your reviews and support, we'll be back

1191
01:08:51,479 --> 01:08:54,479
Speaker 5: next year with an all new season of Dear Therapist

1192
01:08:54,519 --> 01:08:55,879
Speaker 5: Sessions that we can't.

1193
01:08:55,639 --> 01:08:57,119
Speaker 3: Wait to bring you now.

1194
01:08:57,119 --> 01:08:59,479
Speaker 5: While we're off taping, don't forget to catch up on

1195
01:08:59,639 --> 01:09:01,799
Speaker 5: all of the season one and season two episodes you

1196
01:09:01,879 --> 01:09:03,439
Speaker 5: missed or want to hear again.

1197
01:09:03,639 --> 01:09:05,439
Speaker 1: And if you'd like to apply to be in session

1198
01:09:05,439 --> 01:09:08,079
Speaker 1: with us on season three, just send us an email

1199
01:09:08,199 --> 01:09:12,319
Speaker 1: to Laurie and Guy at iHeartMedia dot com. That's l

1200
01:09:12,359 --> 01:09:15,959
Speaker 1: O RI I A N D g u Y at

1201
01:09:16,039 --> 01:09:19,559
Speaker 1: iHeartMedia dot com. You can also find our email in

1202
01:09:19,599 --> 01:09:20,319
Speaker 1: the show notes.

1203
01:09:20,999 --> 01:09:22,319
Speaker 3: See you back in Sessions soon.

1204
01:09:23,639 --> 01:09:27,279
Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited

1205
01:09:27,319 --> 01:09:31,479
Speaker 1: by Mike Johns, Josh Fisher, and Chris Childs. Our interns

1206
01:09:31,519 --> 01:09:35,039
Speaker 1: are Dorit Corwin and Silver Lifton Special thanks to Alison

1207
01:09:35,079 --> 01:09:38,559
Speaker 1: Wright and to our podcast Fairy Godmother Katie Couric.

1208
01:09:39,079 --> 01:09:41,479
Speaker 3: Deotherapist is a production of iHeartRadio.