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Speaker 1: Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Lari Gottlieb. I'm the author of

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Speaker 1: Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the

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Speaker 1: Dear Therapist advice column for The Atlantic.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,

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Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for TED.

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Speaker 2: And this is Deo Therapists.

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Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a session so you

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Speaker 1: can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help

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Speaker 1: other people come to understand themselves better and make changes

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Speaker 1: in their lives.

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Speaker 2: So sit back and welcome to today's session.

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Speaker 1: This week, our fellow traveler is haunted by the ghost

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Speaker 1: of his last relationship as he tries to move on

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Speaker 1: with a new partner.

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Speaker 3: It's really hard for me to open up to him

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Speaker 3: because every time in the past I have opened up

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Speaker 3: about my feelings, it's either been met with rejection or

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Speaker 3: met with OCD. So it's really hard for me to

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Speaker 3: trust that I can have a safe person to open

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Speaker 3: up to first.

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Speaker 2: A quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only,

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Speaker 2: does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and is not

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Speaker 2: a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always

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Speaker 2: seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional, or

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Speaker 2: other qualified health provider with any questions you may have

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Speaker 2: regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,

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Speaker 2: you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part

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Speaker 2: or in full, and we may edit it for length

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Speaker 2: and clarity and the sessions you'll hear. All names have

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Speaker 2: been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers.

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Speaker 1: Hi Laurie, Hi Guy. So I think today we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about relationships.

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Speaker 2: We are. We have a letter from someone who's in

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Speaker 2: a new relationship but not quite over the old one,

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Speaker 2: and it goes like this, Geotherapists. Eight months ago, I

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Speaker 2: got out of an engagement with my five and a

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Speaker 2: half year partner. It had been a long time coming

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Speaker 2: and was ultimately better for the both of us. My

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Speaker 2: former fiance suffered from severe clinical OCD. His compulsions included

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Speaker 2: excessive repeating of the same question that often centered around

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Speaker 2: me or our relationship, for example, asking twenty times in

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Speaker 2: a row if it was considered cheating, if he thought

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Speaker 2: another man was attractive, or apologizing for sighing and making

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Speaker 2: sure I knew that he wasn't mad at me. I

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Speaker 2: had been having doubts about being in the relationship for

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Speaker 2: quite a while. The constant questions drove me to the

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Speaker 2: point of almost madness and caused a lot of anxiety,

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Speaker 2: self doubt, and insecurities within myself. I felt he never

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Speaker 2: supported me or could be present for the things I

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Speaker 2: needed because we were too focused on him and his needs.

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Speaker 2: In the end, he was the one who ended things

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Speaker 2: to me. It was completely out of the blue. I

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Speaker 2: had shared my unhappiness with a relationship on multiple occasions.

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Speaker 2: He always cried and said he would change, and told

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Speaker 2: me how much he wanted to be with me. He

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Speaker 2: never once told me he was unhappy or that he

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Speaker 2: needed something different from me. I think that was the

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Speaker 2: hardest part. After all these years I had supported him,

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Speaker 2: it was difficult to accept that he was the one

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Speaker 2: who couldn't be with me anymore. I have since entered

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Speaker 2: a new and much healthier relationship, and even though I

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Speaker 2: have moved on from my ex and don't have feelings

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Speaker 2: towards them anymore, it still seems like he occupies a

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Speaker 2: lot of my thoughts. I question what it says about

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Speaker 2: me that I allowed myself to be in such an

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Speaker 2: unhealthy relationship for so long can you help me find

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Speaker 2: peace and closure with this toxic past. I don't want

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Speaker 2: it to affect my current relationship, but sometimes feel so

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Speaker 2: stuck in the past, even though my partner loves and

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Speaker 2: supports me in the ways I need. I fear it's

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Speaker 2: only a matter of time before things go wrong, or

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Speaker 2: question if I'm missing signs that it won't work out, Doug.

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Speaker 1: This is so common when somebody has a relationship that

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Speaker 1: really marked them in a way, even when they move

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Speaker 1: on to a much healthier relationship, if they haven't processed

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Speaker 1: what happened in the other relationship, meaning it's not just

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Speaker 1: that the relationship is over, it's that they processed what

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Speaker 1: happened during that time, they end up feeling like there's

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Speaker 1: something incomplete, something unfinished, and they can't truly enjoy the

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Speaker 1: new relationship.

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Speaker 2: It's also very common that when you're with somebody who

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Speaker 2: has a manifest disorder, whether mental or physical, so much

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Speaker 2: attention goes to that disorder that a lot of other

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Speaker 2: things get lost. And OCD is very difficult because people

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Speaker 2: who have it described that they feel harassed by it,

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Speaker 2: but then often their partners can feel harassed by it

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Speaker 2: as well, because it can be a very difficult disorder

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Speaker 2: to live with.

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Speaker 1: And the thing too about the OCD is that it

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Speaker 1: took up so much space in the relationship, and there

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Speaker 1: was so much focus on what the partner was doing

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Speaker 1: that was harmful in the relationship. But it takes two

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Speaker 1: And there was a question that he asked, which I

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Speaker 1: think was a good one that I want to explore

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Speaker 1: with him, which was what was his role in this

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Speaker 1: relationship and why was he in it for so long?

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Speaker 2: I agree, so let's go explore it with him.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to Dear Therapists for My Heart Radio. We'll

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Speaker 1: be back after a short break. I'm laur Gottlieber and I'm.

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Speaker 2: Guy Wench and this is Deotherapists. Hey Doug, welcome to

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Speaker 2: the show.

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Speaker 3: Hey Lori, Hi Guy, how are you doing today.

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Speaker 1: We're well, Thanks for coming on the show.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 2: You're welcome. We'd like to hear a little bit more

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Speaker 2: about the relationship, the ups and the downs. You mentioned

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Speaker 2: some of the downs, but we'd like to hear a

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Speaker 2: little bit about how bad things got, how good things were,

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Speaker 2: and how things came to an end.

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Speaker 3: Sure, So Max and I met back in twenty fourteen,

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Speaker 3: and we met through work and connected right off the bat.

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Speaker 3: He was a really friendly guy and just really easy

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Speaker 3: to talk to, so we started dating shortly after we met.

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Speaker 3: Everything was good at first, and about six months in

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Speaker 3: he told me that he battled OCD clinical OCD and

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Speaker 3: OCD can manifest differently for everybody, but for Max in particular,

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Speaker 3: he would have obsessive thoughts and then repeat himself many,

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Speaker 3: many times, and over time it progressively got worse. When

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Speaker 3: we started dating, it was, you know, maybe once a

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Speaker 3: day every other day he would start really focusing on something,

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Speaker 3: and towards the end it was all the time. It

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Speaker 3: was all day, every day, from morning to night, about

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Speaker 3: really anything. It could have been. He was upset that

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Speaker 3: he breathed wrong, or maybe he saw somebody attractive and thought,

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Speaker 3: is that cheating? Do I want to be with this

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Speaker 3: guy more than with Doug? And I think over time

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Speaker 3: I didn't realize how much it was weighing on me,

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Speaker 3: and my anxiety and my depression was really starting to

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Speaker 3: come through, because I mean, it was really just all

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Speaker 3: about him and all about his problems, and towards the

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Speaker 3: end it really got to the point where we were

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Speaker 3: fighting in front of our friends. I would try to

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Speaker 3: remove myself from the situation. I would lock myself in

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Speaker 3: the bathroom in the bedroom, and he would pick the lock.

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Speaker 3: I would try to leave the house just to get

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Speaker 3: some space, and he would call me thirty times in

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Speaker 3: a row to turn off my phone. So it got

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Speaker 3: really intense. Towards the end. At the four year mark,

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Speaker 3: we got engaged, and I was really apprehensive about it,

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Speaker 3: but I was also really hopeful because I thought maybe

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Speaker 3: this would be a time in our relationship where we

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Speaker 3: could really focus on starting fresh and starting new and

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Speaker 3: really going forward with getting his OCD under control.

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Speaker 1: Doug, let me interrupt and ask you a question. It

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Speaker 1: sounds like the relationship was so volatile and there was

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Speaker 1: so much stress. You're fighting in front of friends, you

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Speaker 1: were locking yourself in a room, he was picking the lock.

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Speaker 1: What made you both decide we should take this to

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Speaker 1: the next step and get engaged.

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Speaker 3: I think for both of us it was our first

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Speaker 3: serious relationship, and all of our friends had been getting engaged.

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Speaker 3: It just kind of made sense at the time of

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Speaker 3: our life. And I really did love Max. I loved

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Speaker 3: his family. I don't have a great relationship with my family,

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Speaker 3: and his family fully embraced me from the very first

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Speaker 3: time that we met, and I think I was really

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Speaker 3: excited to have that in my life, and it was

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Speaker 3: really important for me to have that. And we did

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Speaker 3: have a lot of good times together. We had a

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Speaker 3: lot of great memories together, and I really had hope

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Speaker 3: that it would get better. I knew the OCD would

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Speaker 3: always be there, but I thought with therapy and with work,

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Speaker 3: we could make it better. And it just never really

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Speaker 3: got better.

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Speaker 2: And did you see Max doing any of those things,

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Speaker 2: going to therapy or doing the work to change Based

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Speaker 2: on the requests that you've made about the things that

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Speaker 2: made you uncomfortable.

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Speaker 3: He would go to therapy every once in a while,

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Speaker 3: it was always really hit or miss, and it was

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Speaker 3: always me trying to push him to go. When I

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Speaker 3: would have conversations about being unhappy. My two requests were,

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Speaker 3: please see a therapist regularly, and please reach out to

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Speaker 3: your friends or your family for support, because it all

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Speaker 3: kind of fell on me. He never really did that consistently.

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Speaker 3: He didn't feel comfortable talking to his friends or family.

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Speaker 3: He was very private about his OCD, so no, I

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Speaker 3: never really saw much of an effort, which was where

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Speaker 3: my frustration came in.

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Speaker 1: I hear how hard it was for you that he

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Speaker 1: was having so much trouble with the OCD. Did he

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Speaker 1: feel like he was having trouble with it? In other words,

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Speaker 1: it sounds like you were the one saying, please get

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Speaker 1: some help for this, and it sounds like it was

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Speaker 1: pretty severe. Was he saying I don't like having to

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Speaker 1: live this way or did he not feel like it

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Speaker 1: was as big of an issue as you did.

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Speaker 3: He definitely knew it was an issue, and he struggled

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Speaker 3: with it. And to him, going to therapy and doing

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Speaker 3: the work was harder than living with his OCD. He

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Speaker 3: wasn't willing to put in that work because a lot

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Speaker 3: of the therapy was exposure and putting himself in situations

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Speaker 3: that would make him feel uncomfortable, and he didn't want

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Speaker 3: to do that.

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Speaker 2: And when did that become apparent to you that he

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Speaker 2: didn't want to do that? How far into the relationship.

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Speaker 3: I would say probably after the first year, year and

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Speaker 3: a half, and I continued to have hope that he

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Speaker 3: would go and after we got engaged and I told

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Speaker 3: him I'm going to put a pause on our wedding

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Speaker 3: plans because I don't feel comfortable moving forward. I really

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Speaker 3: need to see you making an effort to go to

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Speaker 3: therapy and work on this, and he didn't. And after

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Speaker 3: all these conversations, he would cry, he would say he

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Speaker 3: was going to do the work. He would get me

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Speaker 3: flowers or write me letters, and nothing ever changed. And

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Speaker 3: eventually I told him I'm not seeing a change, and

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Speaker 3: he immediately got out his phone and made five appointments

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Speaker 3: with a therapist. But at that point it was too little,

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Speaker 3: too late, and ultimately he was the one who ended

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Speaker 3: it with me. He told me he was unhappy, and

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Speaker 3: that's the first time he had even said that to me,

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Speaker 3: So it really came as a shock that he was

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Speaker 3: unhappy with me when he never really voiced that.

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Speaker 1: You said, when he said, okay, I'm going to go

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Speaker 1: do this, you said, it's too little too late. What

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Speaker 1: do you mean you were seeing that he was finally

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Speaker 1: doing the thing that you had waited years to happen.

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Speaker 1: So why was it too little too late? You were

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Speaker 1: still in the relationship, You hadn't broken up with him,

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Speaker 1: You weren't planning to. He was the one who broke

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Speaker 1: up with you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I was planning on breaking up with him. I

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Speaker 3: knew that it wasn't good. I think I was so

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Speaker 3: afraid to break up with him, and I just didn't

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Speaker 3: have those feelings of love. I just felt mostly resentment.

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Speaker 2: Why were you afraid to break up with him?

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Speaker 3: I think I was afraid because I had never really

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Speaker 3: been on my own. I had such a strong support

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Speaker 3: system with his family and with his friends. I have

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Speaker 3: my own friends and support system, but I just really

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Speaker 3: didn't have a lot and his family and friends really

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Speaker 3: supported me, and I was afraid that I was going

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Speaker 3: to lose that with losing him, and I think the

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Speaker 3: fear of an unknown future was scary to me too.

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Speaker 3: Having at least a plan moving forward with somebody and

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Speaker 3: knowing kind of what my life was going to look

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Speaker 3: like was comforting to me in a way, even though

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Speaker 3: I was unhappy. I know it doesn't make sense, but

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Speaker 3: that's kind of where I was.

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Speaker 1: I think it makes perfect sense. One of the things

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Speaker 1: you keep mentioning is his family and the draw of

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Speaker 1: his family, and I'm wondering if you could tell us

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Speaker 1: a little bit more about your family and why you

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Speaker 1: felt like you didn't have that in your family.

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Speaker 3: So I was raised in a very religious family. My

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Speaker 3: dad is a pastor, my mom is a stay at

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Speaker 3: home mom. I have two older sisters that are married

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Speaker 3: with children and an older brother, and everybody in my

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Speaker 3: family is pretty religious, and so when I came out

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Speaker 3: around the age of twenty three, it really wasn't accepted

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Speaker 3: with my family. They really I got kicked out of

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Speaker 3: my parents' house. I moved in with my best friend.

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Speaker 3: I had all of my stuff in two trash bags

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Speaker 3: and just kind of said I'm moving in with you.

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Speaker 3: And it was really tough for a long time because

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Speaker 3: my family has always stressed the importance of our family

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Speaker 3: bond and I felt that I was disappointing them and

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Speaker 3: letting them down. And even throughout my relationship with Max,

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Speaker 3: my parents never asked about him. In five and a

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Speaker 3: half years and being engaged, they never met him. They

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Speaker 3: didn't really care. And I would be on a FaceTime

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Speaker 3: or a video call and they would ask about my dog,

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Speaker 3: and then they wouldn't even mention anything about Max. So

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Speaker 3: it was very much a part of my life that

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Speaker 3: they did not want to know about.

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Speaker 2: And noticing that when you talk about Max, and also

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Speaker 2: when you talk about your parents, you seem much more

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Speaker 2: fluent in talking about their feelings and what they were

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Speaker 2: going through than you are your own. So you said,

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Speaker 2: you know, I felt like I really disappointed them. They

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Speaker 2: felt very disappointed in my parents. But they kicked you out.

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Speaker 2: You literally had to put your stuff in trash bags

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Speaker 2: and go to a friend. You didn't really mention and

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Speaker 2: any feelings you might have had about that kind of

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Speaker 2: disappointment of your parents actually not accepting you and kicking

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Speaker 2: you out of the house. So first, I do want

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Speaker 2: to hear what that was like for you, But I

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Speaker 2: also want to ask you if that's something that you

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Speaker 2: notice that you do that you really focus on the

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Speaker 2: other person's feelings and yours come after that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I do have a hard time articulating my own

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Speaker 3: feelings a lot of the times, and I think during

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Speaker 3: that time, I just felt shame that I wasn't doing

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Speaker 3: what my family thought was best for me. That's when

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Speaker 3: I would say I really started feeling depressed and anxious.

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Speaker 3: Was during that time.

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Speaker 2: You're saying that I felt shame for not doing what

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Speaker 2: my family wanted, But it's actually not about what you're doing,

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Speaker 2: it's about who you are.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, much more refound definitely, Yeah, And I felt very

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Speaker 3: alone during that time, and I think with Max. That's

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Speaker 3: all I did was put his feelings and needs before

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Speaker 3: my own. And it is a very lonely feeling because

295
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Speaker 3: I can sit here and explain what it's like to

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Speaker 3: have somebody ask you the same question twenty times in

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Speaker 3: a row, or from morning tonight, just non stop asking

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Speaker 3: the same thing. And I would explain that to my friends.

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Speaker 3: I would tell them about it. Sometimes they would even experience,

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Speaker 3: but they never really fully understood. So was a very

301
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Speaker 3: lonely feeling because no one quite understands what it's like

302
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Speaker 3: to go through that.

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Speaker 2: But even here in this example, who actually didn't tell

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Speaker 2: us anything about how that feled to you? So how

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Speaker 2: did that feel to you?

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Speaker 3: It was frustrating. It would anger me. I would get

307
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Speaker 3: so angry so quick. Even if you just asked me

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Speaker 3: the same question just a second time after the first time,

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Speaker 3: I would instantly get super angry because it just was unending.

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Speaker 1: Did you ever get angry with your parents?

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Speaker 3: I did. I went about a year without speaking to

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Speaker 3: them because I didn't know how to address what I

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00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:22,560
Speaker 3: was feeling. I didn't know how to talk to them

314
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Speaker 3: about how they made me feel, and it was easier

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Speaker 3: to just not respond. They live out of state, so

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Speaker 3: it was really easy to just not talk to them.

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Speaker 2: Did you ever express that to them thereafter? How you

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Speaker 2: felt the anger because to be kicked out of your

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Speaker 2: house by your parents, who raised you and loved you

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Speaker 2: and their other siblings, and I'm sure they were welcome,

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Speaker 2: to be actually kicked out because of who you are,

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Speaker 2: must feel horrible. Did you ever tell them? Do you

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Speaker 2: ever have an opportunity in the years that followed to

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Speaker 2: tell them what that was like for you?

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Speaker 3: I did. I started going to therapy myself, which was

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Speaker 3: really profound, and my therapist helped me write a letter

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Speaker 3: to them, because a lot of times when I would

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Speaker 3: try speaking to my parents, they would my mom especially

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Speaker 3: would overtalk or interrupt, or they would have Bible verses

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Speaker 3: that counteracted what I would say or how I was feeling,

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Speaker 3: and I was never able to fully articulate in those

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Speaker 3: moments how I felt. So I was able to write

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Speaker 3: them a letter and kind of laid everything out about

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Speaker 3: how I was feeling. And it felt really good to

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Speaker 3: send that, And I would say, that's kind of the

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00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:44,880
Speaker 3: turning point in my family's relationship with me. It kind

337
00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:49,000
Speaker 3: of opened up some conversations about what it was like

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Speaker 3: to be me. I don't think they had really put

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Speaker 3: themselves in my shoes, even though they still believe the

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Speaker 3: same way. We can at least have a little bit

341
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Speaker 3: more open conversations about being gay, about living my truth,

342
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Speaker 3: and it's not as combative anymore as it had been previously.

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Speaker 2: How did they respond when they got that letter?

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Speaker 3: They wrote me a letter back, and they were understanding,

345
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Speaker 3: I would say, where I was coming from. They still

346
00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:27,520
Speaker 3: had a lot to say about how they felt and

347
00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:34,600
Speaker 3: where they were coming from. And I think they felt

348
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Speaker 3: terrible that they had put me through, that they had

349
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Speaker 3: kind of had it in their minds that they were

350
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Speaker 3: doing this out of love and because they cared about me,

351
00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:47,800
Speaker 3: and because they were worried about my future. They didn't

352
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Speaker 3: realize that they were the ones that were hurting me

353
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Speaker 3: and making me feel less than or unequal to my siblings.

354
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Speaker 1: What was your siblings reaction you talk about up being alone.

355
00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:04,320
Speaker 1: Was it your parents and your siblings who reacted the

356
00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:06,439
Speaker 1: same way, or did your siblings have a different reaction.

357
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Speaker 3: My sisters are both pretty religious as well. I would

358
00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:14,639
Speaker 3: say it wasn't as extreme as my parents, But my

359
00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:17,879
Speaker 3: one sister did say she didn't want me around her

360
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:21,600
Speaker 3: kids alone because she was worried that I would hurt

361
00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:25,560
Speaker 3: them or influence them in some way. So that was

362
00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:28,640
Speaker 3: really tough because I've always been really close with my sisters.

363
00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:33,439
Speaker 3: My brother is not super religious, so he was a

364
00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:37,800
Speaker 3: little bit more accepting and understanding, but he kind of

365
00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:41,280
Speaker 3: had his own problems with my parents, so he kind

366
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Speaker 3: of stayed out of that family dynamic.

367
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Speaker 1: Has it changed with your sister since then so that

368
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Speaker 1: you can be with her children and she has shifted

369
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Speaker 1: in her views.

370
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Speaker 3: She has I feel like it's easier for me to

371
00:20:56,520 --> 00:21:01,439
Speaker 3: talk to my sisters. I think they understand more how

372
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:06,280
Speaker 3: hurtful it has been for me, and they're much more

373
00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:10,560
Speaker 3: open to even talking about my life and my partners,

374
00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:15,360
Speaker 3: and they're fine with me being around their kids. So

375
00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:17,880
Speaker 3: that definitely has improved over time.

376
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Speaker 2: How is your parents' relationship.

377
00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:26,719
Speaker 3: They have been together for a really long time, I

378
00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:31,919
Speaker 3: think over forty years. They fought a lot when we

379
00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:36,160
Speaker 3: were kids, and it was always behind closed doors. So

380
00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:38,879
Speaker 3: my dad, like I said, as a pastor, so they

381
00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:40,800
Speaker 3: could be fighting on the car on the way to church,

382
00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:42,680
Speaker 3: and then when we would walk into church, everything would

383
00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:46,760
Speaker 3: be fine and great. There were a lot of actually

384
00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:50,119
Speaker 3: a lot of similarities between the way that my parents

385
00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:53,000
Speaker 3: would fight and the way that Max and I would fight.

386
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Speaker 3: My mom wasn't ever diagnosed with OCD, and she refused

387
00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:01,160
Speaker 3: to ever go and find not if she was. But

388
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:05,520
Speaker 3: there were so many similarities between my mom and Max,

389
00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:09,840
Speaker 3: and it felt sometimes that I was just living the

390
00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:12,160
Speaker 3: same life as my parents in a way.

391
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Speaker 1: What was it like with your mom? Can you give

392
00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:16,640
Speaker 1: us an example of something that was similar?

393
00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:21,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, So she would be telling a story, for instance,

394
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Speaker 3: about something that happened at church, and as one does

395
00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:28,880
Speaker 3: in a conversation, we would interject, the kids would interject,

396
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:31,399
Speaker 3: my dad would interject, and she would get really frustrated

397
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:33,800
Speaker 3: by someone interrupting her, and she would start her whole

398
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:38,840
Speaker 3: story all over again. She was also really really particular

399
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,000
Speaker 3: about how the house looked, about how tighty it was,

400
00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:46,800
Speaker 3: how everything would be placed, and she would notice dust

401
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:49,159
Speaker 3: on the floor that nobody could see, and she would

402
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,080
Speaker 3: be really really ainal about trying to make sure everything

403
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:53,760
Speaker 3: was right. Even as kids, we would have to have

404
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:55,760
Speaker 3: our rooms clean and our beds made in the morning

405
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:57,000
Speaker 3: before we would go to school.

406
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Speaker 2: When did it occur to you that I have had OCD.

407
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,320
Speaker 2: Fiance has OCD one of those two connect for you.

408
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:09,280
Speaker 3: I think when we when my fiance and I started

409
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:14,919
Speaker 3: fighting more, and I remember having one conversation that was

410
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:18,159
Speaker 3: pretty much identical to the conversations my parents would have,

411
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:24,560
Speaker 3: where my partner would be relentless in talking about the

412
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,280
Speaker 3: same thing over and over, and at first I would

413
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:31,400
Speaker 3: maybe try to stay on my ground or tell him

414
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:34,240
Speaker 3: he needed to stop, or even try the silent treatment,

415
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:36,399
Speaker 3: and he would just keep going and going until I

416
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:41,240
Speaker 3: would just throw my hands up and say, Okay, you're right, Yeah,

417
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,640
Speaker 3: it's fine, or just agree with whatever he would say

418
00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 3: to move forward so that we weren't stuck on the

419
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:49,840
Speaker 3: same thing. And that was exactly what my dad did

420
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:53,600
Speaker 3: all the time, because he would rather just let it

421
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:57,639
Speaker 3: go than continue to argue. Because my mom would just

422
00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:00,360
Speaker 3: keep going until everyone would agree with her.

423
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 2: See, in that moment, you might make that connection, but

424
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:04,880
Speaker 2: you literally have the model that but you don't get

425
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 2: divorced over it, you don't break up over it. Your

426
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:09,359
Speaker 2: dad totivated it for the forty years and he was

427
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:11,800
Speaker 2: a trooper, so you must have felt like, no, this

428
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:15,240
Speaker 2: is not grounds for a breakup. Because my parents have

429
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 2: a similar situation and they did not break up.

430
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:19,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly right.

431
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:24,040
Speaker 1: When he broke up with you tell us about the

432
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:25,480
Speaker 1: context in which that happened.

433
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:28,920
Speaker 3: So when we would have our conversations and I would

434
00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:31,119
Speaker 3: come to him and tell him the things that I needed,

435
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:33,919
Speaker 3: like going to therapy or reaching out to his friends,

436
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:37,879
Speaker 3: he would always just ask me for patience, and he

437
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 3: would always say how much he loved me and wanted

438
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:46,240
Speaker 3: to make things work. And his mom is battling pancreatic

439
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:50,960
Speaker 3: cancer and has been battling that for almost two years now,

440
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 3: and one night we were on the phone with her

441
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,879
Speaker 3: and praying with her, and when we got off the phone,

442
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:02,960
Speaker 3: he just started crying and asked him what was wrong,

443
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 3: and I told him she's going to be okay, It's

444
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 3: going to be okay, and he just said, I think

445
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:13,480
Speaker 3: we should break up. I'm unhappy, And at that exact moment,

446
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 3: I felt relieved. I was sad, and I even said,

447
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,200
Speaker 3: I agree. I think that this is the right decision

448
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 3: for us. And we kind of just had a peaceful

449
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:29,160
Speaker 3: night where we reminisced about our past and we talked

450
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:34,360
Speaker 3: about our dog, and we just really kind of made

451
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 3: a plan for the future. What we were going to

452
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:42,119
Speaker 3: do as far as a living situation. And then overnight,

453
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 3: I think that's when the fear for me really started

454
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:49,440
Speaker 3: to set in and I thought, no, I don't want

455
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,560
Speaker 3: this to end. I think again, because I was just afraid.

456
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,480
Speaker 3: And so the next day I wrote him a letter

457
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 3: and I told him, I want to fight for this.

458
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 3: I want to make this work. You have never told

459
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 3: me what you needed from me, so I can give

460
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 3: you what you need. Maybe we can go to couple's therapy,

461
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 3: maybe we can take some time apart and think about it.

462
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:13,359
Speaker 3: And he was really really unwilling to do any of

463
00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:15,879
Speaker 3: that work. And I was really surprised by that and

464
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 3: really hurt by that because I had tried for so

465
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:25,399
Speaker 3: long to make it work and he ended it because

466
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,880
Speaker 3: he was unhappy and I had no idea and wasn't

467
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:32,160
Speaker 3: willing to fight or work on anything.

468
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 1: Do you know why he was unhappy? Was able to

469
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:36,639
Speaker 1: tell you because for five and a half years he

470
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 1: never told you that he was unhappy, And now he's saying,

471
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:43,120
Speaker 1: I don't want this, I've been unhappy.

472
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,960
Speaker 3: He didn't did you ask him? I did ask him.

473
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 3: He didn't really have a reason. He had a really

474
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:54,879
Speaker 3: hard time articulating it. I brought up the fact that

475
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,239
Speaker 3: it must be hard for him to know that I

476
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 3: was really frustrated and that I would get really angry,

477
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,160
Speaker 3: and he kind of agreed to that, and I tried

478
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:06,160
Speaker 3: reaching out to his friends and his family to see

479
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 3: if any of them had any further insight, and they didn't.

480
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:15,200
Speaker 2: You said you were surprised that when you said, hey,

481
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:17,399
Speaker 2: I'll work on this, let's go to therapy, let's do something,

482
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 2: that he wasn't willing to work on it. When for

483
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 2: five and a half years he wasn't willing to work

484
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 2: on things. Why were you surprised that here at the end,

485
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 2: he yet again was not willing to work on things.

486
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:33,679
Speaker 3: I think because we did have such a long relationship,

487
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 3: and so I thought maybe maybe he would be able

488
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 3: to tell me why he was upset or unhappy in therapy,

489
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,160
Speaker 3: or maybe things would come out that we could work

490
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 3: on together to help our relationship.

491
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 2: So you said, at first I was relieved, and then

492
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 2: overnight I got really scared and it was going to

493
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 2: be scary because similar to when you had to pack

494
00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:58,639
Speaker 2: everything into the two trash bags and move out of

495
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:02,120
Speaker 2: your parents' house, here, you were going to lose a lot,

496
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 2: not just Max, but his family, his friends. His mom

497
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 2: was going through this very very difficult illness, and you

498
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 2: feared you were going to lose a family again. And

499
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,639
Speaker 2: I can understand why that was very scary for you

500
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 2: in that moment. How much were you in touch with

501
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 2: the fact that I'm trying to get back together because

502
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 2: I'm afraid of moving on alone versus no, I think

503
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 2: this relationship can work out.

504
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:32,640
Speaker 3: At the time, I didn't recognize that. Now that it's

505
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 3: been a few months since we've ended things, I see

506
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 3: that it was that. But at the time, I really

507
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 3: was just trying to hold on to the future that

508
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 3: I thought that we could have, and hold on to

509
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 3: whatever relationship we had at that point, because I was

510
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 3: afraid to be alone because, like you said, I had

511
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 3: already lost my mind family unit, and it was really scary

512
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 3: to think about losing another family unit.

513
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 1: So after the anxiety set in about being alone, what

514
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 1: happened between you there? How did you actually split?

515
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 3: We actually lived together for a month after we split

516
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 3: because our lease was not done yet and we were

517
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 3: both looking for a place. And I kind of attribute

518
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 3: that time as a really big blessing and a really

519
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 3: big curse because we were able to talk about a

520
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 3: lot of things that we had never talked about in

521
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 3: the relationship. I got to bring up a lot of

522
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 3: things that I felt frustrated by a lot of hurt

523
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 3: that I had felt in the relationship. I got to

524
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 3: bring up mostly because I was really upset during that time.

525
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 1: And even though you were talking a lot during that time,

526
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 1: he still never was able to articulate how he came

527
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 1: to the realization that he wasn't happy in the relationship. No,

528
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 1: did you directly ask him?

529
00:29:58,080 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 2: Yeah?

530
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 3: I would ask him if there was somebody else and

531
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 3: he would say no. I would ask him if it

532
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 3: was because of the way I looked, and he said no.

533
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 3: I asked him if it was because I smoked marijuana.

534
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 3: He said no. And well, Doug, you're.

535
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 1: Sort of playing twenty questions as opposed to saying, can

536
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 1: you tell me why you're unhappy in the relationship? Did

537
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 1: you ever ask him that question?

538
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 3: No? I don't think I directly asked him in that way.

539
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 2: No.

540
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 1: Do you have an idea of why you didn't ask him.

541
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 3: Maybe I was afraid for him to tell me that

542
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 3: it wasn't anything to do with me, that maybe it

543
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 3: was just because we were incompatible.

544
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 1: Was that similar to what happened in your family, where

545
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 1: there was this thing that people just knew but nobody

546
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 1: wanted to say directly.

547
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 3: I think my siblings knew. They didn't really seem surprised

548
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 3: when I came out to them. My parents seemed very surprised,

549
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 3: but I had kept it a secret for so long,

550
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 3: and I played the part of a straight man that

551
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 3: went to church and loved God for so long that

552
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 3: my parents just didn't expect that from me.

553
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 2: Do you have a thought about why you felt freer

554
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 2: to bring up a lot of your feelings and frustrations

555
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 2: in the relationship in that month after the breakup then

556
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 2: you were before the breakup.

557
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 3: I think at that point I felt like I had

558
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 3: nothing to lose. He clearly didn't want to be with me,

559
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 3: and I wanted him to know how much he hurt me.

560
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 1: Was he responsive to the things that you said. Did

561
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 1: he have an understanding or compassion that maybe he didn't

562
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 1: have in the relationship.

563
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 3: I think so. I think he really realized how deep

564
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 3: it went. I don't think he really understood that throughout

565
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 3: the relationship, but he definitely apologized for the things that

566
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 3: he said and did and I really relationship, and I

567
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 3: know he meant it. I know that he really, he

568
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 3: really did feel bad.

569
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 1: When guy was asking why it was easier to talk

570
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 1: about this after the relationship had ended, and you said

571
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 1: you had nothing to lose. What would have happened. Did

572
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 1: you imagine if you had told him at the time

573
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 1: when he made a remark that hurt you, to tell him, hey,

574
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 1: that really hurt me. What do you think his response

575
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 1: would have been.

576
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,960
Speaker 3: When we first started dating and his OCD really started

577
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,960
Speaker 3: to come through, a lot of his OCD was about

578
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 3: finding other men more attractive than me and wondering if

579
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:44,760
Speaker 3: that meant he was cheating. And on several occasions I

580
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 3: brought up how much it hurt me because I felt

581
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 3: like he didn't find me attractive. And when I would

582
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 3: bring up something like that, he would apologize over and

583
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 3: over and over again and feel bad. And then when

584
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 3: it would happen again and I would say that hurts me,

585
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,600
Speaker 3: that makes me feel insecure, than he would apologize again

586
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 3: over and over and so it got to the point

587
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 3: where I was like, well, I'm just not going to

588
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 3: say anything because he's not listening to what I'm saying.

589
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 3: It just triggers his OCD.

590
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 1: More so, what was different after you broke up because

591
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 1: he still had OCD? What was more satisfying about his

592
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 1: response after you broke up that you weren't getting when

593
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 1: you brought it up during the relationship.

594
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 3: I think it seems like he understood it more so.

595
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 3: For example, with me feeling unattractive, I would work out

596
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 3: two times a day, I would count my calories, and

597
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 3: he never knew that. I felt much more free to

598
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 3: say those things after we had broken up. I think

599
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 3: because of that, it made more sense to him, and

600
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 3: I think he could really see a bigger picture than

601
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 3: just those moments.

602
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 2: To me, it seems clear that the difference in how

603
00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 2: he responded after you had broken up was due significantly

604
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 2: to the fact that you brought things up in a

605
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 2: different way, that you were not holding back to you like,

606
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 2: I'm just going to talk about how I feel. I'm

607
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 2: not going to hold back. I'm not going to worry

608
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 2: that this might break something because it's already broken. And

609
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 2: that evoked a different response. Are you clear that it

610
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 2: was you speaking your truth about how you feel that

611
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:25,960
Speaker 2: garnered the better response, as opposed to him being in

612
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 2: a different place.

613
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 3: I definitely understand that now, and that's something that I've

614
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 3: been working on through therapy. I think I'm trying to

615
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,760
Speaker 3: learn how to be more vocal and say my needs

616
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 3: and my feelings, but it is still difficult.

617
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 1: For me to do. So you broke up several months ago,

618
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:54,879
Speaker 1: and what is your contact like now with Max? And

619
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 1: tell us also when and how you met your new boyfriend. Yeah.

620
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, so Max and I still have contact. We had

621
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 3: a dog together, so I will take the dog. We

622
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,719
Speaker 3: see each other. It is very cordial. I still talk

623
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,479
Speaker 3: with his mom and his sister regularly. It feels good

624
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 3: to be on good terms with him. And I met

625
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:24,839
Speaker 3: my current boyfriend, Lucas through a mutual friend, and he

626
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:29,359
Speaker 3: is amazing. I feel like he gives me everything that

627
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 3: I need out of a relationship. He gives me support,

628
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 3: he gives me a listening ear. It feels very balanced

629
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 3: in the relationship. When I'm feeling anxious, he's there to

630
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:42,399
Speaker 3: support me. When he has things that he's going through,

631
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 3: I can be there for him. I didn't realize how

632
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 3: easy a relationship could be. I feel like I can

633
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 3: be much more open and honest with Lucas, and I

634
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:55,479
Speaker 3: feel like I have been. There are definitely times when

635
00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 3: I get in my head or I don't feel comfortable

636
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 3: being super open about how I'm feeling. He'll ask me,

637
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 3: and I think that's kind of where I struggle is.

638
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 3: He'll ask me, and I'll say everything's fine, and he'll

639
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:17,720
Speaker 3: ask me again, and I can feel myself getting angry

640
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 3: even though he's not doing it because he is OCD.

641
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,800
Speaker 3: I think I still have those thoughts where if somebody

642
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:28,360
Speaker 3: asked me the same question a couple of times, I

643
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 3: just tense up. I think, after five and a half

644
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 3: years of going through that.

645
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:34,839
Speaker 2: Are you able to in those moments, even if you're

646
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 2: getting annoyed, but tell him how you feel, or if

647
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 2: you're preoccupied at you're distant, be able to share with

648
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:43,120
Speaker 2: him where you're aunt emotionally in that moment.

649
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 3: We have talked about that a couple of times, and

650
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:51,359
Speaker 3: I've kind of shared my story with Max and how

651
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 3: that went, so he understands where I'm coming from, and

652
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 3: we're able to get to the point now where I

653
00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 3: can say I'm really anxious, I can't talk about it

654
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:01,840
Speaker 3: right now, you can talk about it later, and we

655
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 3: do when I'm a little bit more calm or in

656
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 3: a better mind space that does work out really well

657
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 3: for us in this new relationship.

658
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 1: What makes you anxious?

659
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:15,720
Speaker 3: It's not necessarily anything with the relationship per se. Could

660
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:21,760
Speaker 3: just be work, it could be things with my family,

661
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:24,279
Speaker 3: it could be just the state of the world. And

662
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 3: I think it's really hard for me to open up

663
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:32,359
Speaker 3: to him in certain ways about certain things because every

664
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 3: time in the past that I've opened up about my feelings,

665
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:37,400
Speaker 3: it's either been met with rejection like my family, or

666
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,360
Speaker 3: met with OCD with Max. So it's really hard for

667
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:44,440
Speaker 3: me to trust that I can have a safe person

668
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 3: to open up to.

669
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 2: Each of those things are all good. Further, for a

670
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 2: conversation with a partner to say, you know, I'm just

671
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:55,319
Speaker 2: thinking about, well, I'm a little anxious about something. Let

672
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:58,480
Speaker 2: me tell you what's going on. Why not share that

673
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:02,319
Speaker 2: with him? Because as part of your pattern is I'm

674
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 2: afraid to share enough about what I feel because in

675
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 2: the past people haven't handled that well. I've told my

676
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:13,200
Speaker 2: parents about who I am, and I've gotten OCD responses

677
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 2: from Max. But part of you recognizes that it's an

678
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 2: important thing to be able to do. Why not actually

679
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:23,720
Speaker 2: just tell them what the thing is that you're anxious about.

680
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:26,760
Speaker 2: That's when you would most benefit perhaps from that support

681
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 2: and conversation. Why have to be unanxious before you can

682
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:31,600
Speaker 2: talk to him about what you're anxious about.

683
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 3: I just don't want to be a burden on anyone,

684
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:40,759
Speaker 3: Like my family, for instance, they are worried about me

685
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:46,239
Speaker 3: and going to heaven or my future, and I just

686
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:49,439
Speaker 3: always feel like when I do open up to people

687
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:52,239
Speaker 3: and when I'm honest with them, that I'm just being

688
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:53,799
Speaker 3: a burden to them.

689
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 1: I can see how in your mind you felt like

690
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:00,120
Speaker 1: you were a burden to your parents because they were

691
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 1: going to have to quote unquote deal with the fact

692
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 1: that this was going to affect their lives, the lives

693
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 1: of their community, etc. Even though, of course being who

694
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:17,840
Speaker 1: you are is not a burden. And so I think

695
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 1: Max was very convenient for you because you couldn't possibly

696
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 1: be a burden to someone who has OCD. That takes

697
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 1: up all the space in the relationship. There's no room

698
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 1: for you in the relationship. So in some ways you

699
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:36,239
Speaker 1: really resented it, but in other ways it was incredibly

700
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 1: safe for you because you couldn't possibly bring your own

701
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:44,759
Speaker 1: stuff into that relationship with all that was going on.

702
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 1: You could have, you chose not to, we should say,

703
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:49,880
Speaker 1: because at the end you did, and here you are

704
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 1: with Lucas, who is giving you all of that space,

705
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:57,839
Speaker 1: and on the one hand, you really crave that, and

706
00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 1: on the other hand, you're so comfortable with it because

707
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:05,840
Speaker 1: you're so afraid that if I share the truth of

708
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 1: who I am, I will somehow disappoint, burden offend, be

709
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 1: too much.

710
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 3: That's exactly it. I think I'm afraid sometimes to share

711
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 3: how I feel with Lucas because with Max, he broke

712
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 3: up with me out of the blue and I had

713
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:26,879
Speaker 3: no idea how he was feeling. And so I think

714
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 3: that even amplifies that with Lucas, because I'm afraid that

715
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:33,880
Speaker 3: I'm going to say something wrong or that I'm going

716
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:36,400
Speaker 3: to be too much for him, and he's not going

717
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:38,440
Speaker 3: to want to take on that burden of me and

718
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 3: maybe my problems.

719
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:46,200
Speaker 1: I tend to think that the burden for Max in

720
00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:52,120
Speaker 1: your relationship was that you didn't bring things up, and

721
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 1: I think that it became a burden because it became

722
00:40:54,760 --> 00:41:00,319
Speaker 1: all about him. And on the one hand, I think

723
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 1: that he wanted to have somebody who was very supportive

724
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 1: of what he was going through with the OCD. But

725
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:08,080
Speaker 1: on the other hand, I think there was also a

726
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:10,520
Speaker 1: part of him that wanted you to show up in

727
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:14,880
Speaker 1: the relationship, so it wasn't all about him, and the

728
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:18,320
Speaker 1: two of you never had the tools to discuss things

729
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:21,799
Speaker 1: in that way. But you have an opportunity now to

730
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:26,960
Speaker 1: see that relationships thrive when both people are fully present

731
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 1: and it's not about one person or the other.

732
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:33,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's very true. I think in my

733
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:38,759
Speaker 3: mind I was supporting Max by being patient or listening

734
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 3: or being there for him in those moments, but I

735
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 3: never really gave him the opportunity to do that for me,

736
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:52,480
Speaker 3: or when I did, it wasn't fully the truth.

737
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,239
Speaker 1: Maybe right. So you have this idea that if you

738
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:58,879
Speaker 1: bring things up, the relationship will break, and what I'm

739
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:01,120
Speaker 1: saying is if you do I won't bring things up,

740
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:02,800
Speaker 1: the relationship will break.

741
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 3: Yeah. I never thought about it that way.

742
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:08,839
Speaker 2: And you said you're not quite sure why Max broke

743
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 2: up with you, But the reality for Max was that

744
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 2: his OCD was practically the entire relationship. It did take

745
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:19,880
Speaker 2: all the air out of the room and there was

746
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:24,400
Speaker 2: no balance. You mentioned your anxiety and your depression, but

747
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:27,239
Speaker 2: you mentioned them very fleetingly earlier on when we were

748
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:30,759
Speaker 2: talking here, and I think that's probably the representation they

749
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:33,239
Speaker 2: got in the relationship with Max as well. They were known,

750
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:36,800
Speaker 2: but they weren't really brought up, and so your emotional

751
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:42,280
Speaker 2: struggles were not there other than your emotional struggles about

752
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 2: Max's emotional struggles. And so for him, he's in a

753
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 2: relationship with someone who's managing his issues and keep saying

754
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:53,279
Speaker 2: to him, this is really hard to manage. Can you

755
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:55,360
Speaker 2: get more help because this is really really hard for

756
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:57,360
Speaker 2: me to manage, and he doesn't get more help. But

757
00:42:57,440 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 2: then part of why the breakup probably came to him

758
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:02,719
Speaker 2: most because he didn't have solutions there. He didn't want

759
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 2: to get more help, and he knew that all he

760
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 2: was hearing from you was that it's too much, it's

761
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:09,279
Speaker 2: too much, it's too much. So he just took the

762
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:11,640
Speaker 2: executive decision then this is just not going to work.

763
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, I never thought about it that way.

764
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 2: That makes a lot of sense, And.

765
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:18,839
Speaker 1: I think what we don't want to see happen here

766
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:22,800
Speaker 1: is that there's a role reversal where in the first relationship,

767
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:25,640
Speaker 1: Max was having all these issues, but he wouldn't really

768
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:28,719
Speaker 1: deal with it, wouldn't really talk about it, and he

769
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:30,959
Speaker 1: just brought his symptoms, but he wouldn't really talk about

770
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 1: what was underneath it. And we don't want to see

771
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 1: that happen with Lucas, where Lucas is coming to you

772
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 1: and saying, Hey, what's going on? Talk to me and

773
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 1: you're not really talking about what's happening and what you're

774
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 1: doing to help manage it. You can share, hey, I'm

775
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:48,319
Speaker 1: working on this in therapy. You don't have to tell

776
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 1: them all the details, but to really be present and

777
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:54,239
Speaker 1: not feel like, well, if I tell him, it's going

778
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 1: to burden him and that's just going to push him away.

779
00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:02,959
Speaker 3: Yeah. I appreciate when he can be vulnerable and tell

780
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:07,719
Speaker 3: me what he's going through because he's able to talk

781
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 3: about it so freely, and I really admire that. And

782
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:17,319
Speaker 3: he's given me no reason why I think that he

783
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:19,840
Speaker 3: wouldn't be willing to do that for me as well.

784
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:23,279
Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit more about what

785
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 1: I'm going to call intrusive thoughts since that's what Max had,

786
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:29,719
Speaker 1: The intrusive thoughts that you have when you're with Lucas

787
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:32,239
Speaker 1: that get in the way of you being in this

788
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:33,839
Speaker 1: relationship in a comfortable way.

789
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:38,520
Speaker 3: There have been times with Lucas that he will ask

790
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 3: me how I'm doing, and I'll get instantly annoyed, or

791
00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 3: maybe he's a little too much in my face and

792
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:48,040
Speaker 3: I just don't know how to react, and so my

793
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 3: instant thought is to be like, this isn't going to

794
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 3: work or I can't handle this.

795
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:55,480
Speaker 2: What's an example of him being in your face?

796
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:59,359
Speaker 3: It's literally just leaning in for a kiss or being

797
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 3: close close proximity to my face, Like it's not it's

798
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 3: not or anything aggressive or anything like that.

799
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:09,040
Speaker 2: Oh, it's nice in your face, not the bad in

800
00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:09,680
Speaker 2: your face.

801
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:13,359
Speaker 1: Right, So all of this sounds like you're trying to

802
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:18,200
Speaker 1: protect your own space. But in your letter you talk

803
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:21,279
Speaker 1: about I'm worried that the other shoe's going to drop,

804
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 1: that he's going to leave me. So I think you're

805
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:27,759
Speaker 1: doing all these things to protect yourself, like, oh, that's

806
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 1: too close, that really nice gesture coming over to kiss me,

807
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:33,520
Speaker 1: that that normally would feel really good, feels a little

808
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:38,400
Speaker 1: scary because you don't want to get too close or

809
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 1: too invested, because you wrote in your letter, I'm always

810
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:45,399
Speaker 1: worried that something will go wrong. So can you talk

811
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:47,600
Speaker 1: more about that, because I think that's what this is

812
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:48,720
Speaker 1: really about.

813
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's very true. I think I'm afraid

814
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:54,839
Speaker 3: to get too close because I don't want to get

815
00:45:54,920 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 3: hurt again. I'm afraid to show Ucas the deeper parts

816
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 3: of me because I'm afraid that it's going to be

817
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:09,600
Speaker 3: met with rejection. I even had a dream last night

818
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 3: that Lucas broke up with me, and I was really

819
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:16,520
Speaker 3: upset and sad about it, and I reached out to

820
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:18,400
Speaker 3: him today and told him about it, and he said,

821
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:22,359
Speaker 3: I love you so much. I wouldn't do that. But

822
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:26,400
Speaker 3: I think those are just fears that are just there

823
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:32,880
Speaker 3: because of being blindsided by Max after such a tumultuous relationship.

824
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 1: I think those fears are there because of being blindsided

825
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 1: by your parents. And I think that there was a

826
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:42,279
Speaker 1: way that MAX worked very well for you because it

827
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:46,240
Speaker 1: kept you so safe to always be in the position

828
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:48,759
Speaker 1: of you are not making me happy, I might break

829
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 1: up with you, which gives you power and keeps you

830
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:57,360
Speaker 1: from being in that vulnerable position of you might not

831
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 1: want to stay with me. How could you not want

832
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:02,879
Speaker 1: to stay with me if I put up with all

833
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:05,439
Speaker 1: of your OCD day in and day out for five

834
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 1: and a half years, not realizing that that doesn't work

835
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:17,200
Speaker 1: for either person. And so as you think about this

836
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:22,319
Speaker 1: abandonment fear that permeates your relationship with Lucas to the

837
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:24,359
Speaker 1: point that you're dreaming of him breaking up with you,

838
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:29,920
Speaker 1: it sounds like getting in touch with some of those

839
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 1: feelings that maybe you haven't expressed fully about what it

840
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:35,320
Speaker 1: was like to pack up those two trash bags and

841
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 1: leave your house might be really helpful now that you're

842
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:40,680
Speaker 1: in a more balanced relationship.

843
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:45,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do want to add one thing. There was

844
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:49,319
Speaker 2: the moment where your parents rejected you and kicked you

845
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:52,799
Speaker 2: out of the house, and there were the thousands of

846
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:56,480
Speaker 2: moments before you told them that you worried that they might.

847
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 2: So that's why that's so impactful. Opened once, But do

848
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:04,960
Speaker 2: you worry that it would for probably many years before

849
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:09,000
Speaker 2: it actually did, and then it did, and that it's

850
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:09,799
Speaker 2: going to leave a mark.

851
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:13,080
Speaker 1: And there's a way when we talk about OCD that

852
00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:19,400
Speaker 1: when we imagine the horrible thing happening, it almost protects us.

853
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 1: If I can imagine Lucas breaking up with me, even

854
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:26,279
Speaker 1: though it feels bad, at least I'm prepared in my mind.

855
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:30,239
Speaker 1: If I don't get too close to him at least

856
00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:34,080
Speaker 1: it won't be so bad. So there's almost like an

857
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:39,439
Speaker 1: OCD like process going on with you where you're doing

858
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:43,839
Speaker 1: everything you can to protect yourself against what you see

859
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:44,880
Speaker 1: is almost inevitable.

860
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:48,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely.

861
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:55,080
Speaker 1: What is your relationship like with Max's family? Now? You

862
00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:56,399
Speaker 1: said you're still in touch with them?

863
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:03,120
Speaker 3: Yeah. I am really close with his sister. I consider

864
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:10,399
Speaker 3: her my sister. Still. We visit together pretty frequently, and

865
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:14,239
Speaker 3: I still talk to his mom pretty regularly and just

866
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:17,760
Speaker 3: check in see how she's doing. They all still consider

867
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:22,480
Speaker 3: me a part of their family, and I still consider

868
00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:23,320
Speaker 3: them my family.

869
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:25,600
Speaker 1: So the catastrophe didn't happen.

870
00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:27,040
Speaker 2: No, I did not.

871
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:29,439
Speaker 1: You thought that if you broke up you would lose

872
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:32,440
Speaker 1: this entire family, And you have a cordial relationship with

873
00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:35,600
Speaker 1: Max and you still have this lovely relationship with his

874
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:38,040
Speaker 1: family and you see the dog right.

875
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:39,319
Speaker 3: Yeah.

876
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:43,279
Speaker 1: What about Lucas's family? What is your relationship like with them?

877
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:49,480
Speaker 3: He has a pretty similar experience as me coming out

878
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:53,160
Speaker 3: to his family, so he is not super close with

879
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:57,719
Speaker 3: his parents and one of his brothers. I have met

880
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:02,640
Speaker 3: his other brother and his in law and they're wonderful.

881
00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:03,680
Speaker 3: They're really sweet.

882
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:07,279
Speaker 1: What has happened in the relationship with your family since

883
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:08,480
Speaker 1: you started dating Lucas.

884
00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:13,759
Speaker 3: I still haven't told my family that I'm dating Lucas.

885
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:22,040
Speaker 3: I think because I am enjoying my relationship with Lucas

886
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:25,000
Speaker 3: and I feel like bringing it up to my family

887
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:29,920
Speaker 3: will sort of tint that in a way. And I

888
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:33,960
Speaker 3: feel like my family and I's kind of in a

889
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:37,000
Speaker 3: better place right now because they think that I'm single,

890
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:40,919
Speaker 3: and so in a weird way, we're able to kind

891
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:48,040
Speaker 3: of talk without worrying about another partner that I might have.

892
00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:50,239
Speaker 1: So being single makes you less gay?

893
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:54,880
Speaker 3: Well, my dad did ask me recently, where are you

894
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:57,239
Speaker 3: with the whole gay thing. I said, I'm not really

895
00:50:57,239 --> 00:50:59,600
Speaker 3: sure what you're asking. I'm still gay if that's what

896
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:02,359
Speaker 3: you're at. And he said, so you really don't think

897
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:04,680
Speaker 3: that it's a choice, And I said, no, it's definitely

898
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:07,680
Speaker 3: not a choice. And that was kind of the end

899
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:10,520
Speaker 3: of the conversation. But that's how it's always been, is

900
00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:12,400
Speaker 3: every time they would bring it up to me, it

901
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:16,759
Speaker 3: was very this is really what you're choosing, This is

902
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:21,799
Speaker 3: against what God wants, and this is not what we

903
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:23,560
Speaker 3: want for you in your future.

904
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:27,759
Speaker 2: It remains hurtful that they have to keep telling you

905
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:32,200
Speaker 2: in a consistent, practically OCD way. Let us know when

906
00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:34,879
Speaker 2: you're done with being gay, and you know that it's

907
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:37,080
Speaker 2: still not okay with us, and it's still not okay

908
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:38,920
Speaker 2: with our God and all of those things. I mean,

909
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:41,759
Speaker 2: it's very unfortunate if it keeps coming up.

910
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:45,600
Speaker 3: I feel bad not telling my family about Lucas because

911
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:48,600
Speaker 3: he is such a great person. But they're not going

912
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:51,040
Speaker 3: to see him the way that I see him. They're

913
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:52,959
Speaker 3: not going to see him as a great person. They're

914
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:58,240
Speaker 3: not going to see him as somebody who makes me happy.

915
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:01,880
Speaker 3: They're going to see him as somebody that's taking me

916
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:07,719
Speaker 3: away from my path to righteousness or God.

917
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:09,600
Speaker 1: I think that the ways in which you have to

918
00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:14,919
Speaker 1: protect yourself from the hurt from your parents bleeds into

919
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:17,279
Speaker 1: the way you feel like you have to protect yourself

920
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:22,600
Speaker 1: from Lucas, And sometimes you conflate the two. You're holding

921
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:25,560
Speaker 1: back with your parents because they will say hurtful things,

922
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:29,000
Speaker 1: but you're holding back with Lucas because you're afraid that

923
00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:31,600
Speaker 1: he is also going to reject you, and we want

924
00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:39,480
Speaker 1: to make sure that doesn't happen. We have some advice

925
00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:41,560
Speaker 1: we'd like to give you. We've been thinking about your

926
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:46,800
Speaker 1: situation and we've been seeing a lot of parallels between

927
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:50,440
Speaker 1: the relationship with Max and the relationship with Lucas, but

928
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:54,600
Speaker 1: with the roles a little bit reversed. And so what

929
00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:56,120
Speaker 1: we'd like you to do is we'd like you to

930
00:52:56,200 --> 00:53:00,480
Speaker 1: have a conversation with Lucas where you say to him

931
00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:04,279
Speaker 1: that even though I've told you a lot about my

932
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:06,480
Speaker 1: relationship with Max and how much I had to take

933
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:09,200
Speaker 1: care of him, I think in some ways it was

934
00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:13,080
Speaker 1: very convenient for me because I didn't really have to

935
00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:18,400
Speaker 1: deal with my own anxieties about rejection and love. And

936
00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:22,160
Speaker 1: I don't want to become the Max to you in

937
00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:26,960
Speaker 1: our relationship. And there might be times when you come

938
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:31,040
Speaker 1: close to me and even though I really really want that,

939
00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:35,600
Speaker 1: I get a little bit scared and you might feel

940
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:39,240
Speaker 1: a little bit rejected by me. And if that happens,

941
00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:42,839
Speaker 1: please let me know, because I don't want you to

942
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:46,719
Speaker 1: feel that I am not wanting all of this delicious

943
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:50,879
Speaker 1: love that you were bringing to me. And so you're

944
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 1: just opening the door for him to have a dialogue

945
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:57,359
Speaker 1: about that. When he perceives that, because he will, he'll

946
00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:00,840
Speaker 1: notice it, and then we want you to do something

947
00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:05,239
Speaker 1: about it. And in your relationship with Max, you said

948
00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:07,280
Speaker 1: the reason that he didn't want to go to therapy

949
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:09,960
Speaker 1: was because a lot of the treatment for OCD involves

950
00:54:10,120 --> 00:54:14,160
Speaker 1: exposure to the very thing that makes the person anxious.

951
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:17,280
Speaker 1: We want you to do a little bit of exposure

952
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:22,040
Speaker 1: therapy here, and what we mean by that is when

953
00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:25,040
Speaker 1: Lucas comes toward you and you feel a little bit overwhelmed,

954
00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:27,880
Speaker 1: it comes to kiss you and you feel like, uh, oh,

955
00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:33,200
Speaker 1: I'm feeling a little vulnerable here. Instead of moving away

956
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:37,440
Speaker 1: from that, we want you to move toward that, but

957
00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:39,680
Speaker 1: we want you to do it in a specific way.

958
00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:42,600
Speaker 2: I don't know how much you know about exposure therapy,

959
00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:44,759
Speaker 2: but typically, let's say, if somebody is trying to get

960
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:47,680
Speaker 2: over a fear of snakes and into the snake pit

961
00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:50,839
Speaker 2: they go, and it's like, ah, snakes, but it's all

962
00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:53,319
Speaker 2: very very passive. You know, they're just sitting there with

963
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:56,759
Speaker 2: snakes doing what snakes do. And the thing about anxiety

964
00:54:56,840 --> 00:55:00,560
Speaker 2: is that we feel better when we're in control. So

965
00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:04,120
Speaker 2: we want you, as part of your exposure therapy, to

966
00:55:04,239 --> 00:55:06,640
Speaker 2: lean in to the love when it makes you a

967
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:08,920
Speaker 2: little anxious, but to do it in a way in

968
00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:11,680
Speaker 2: which you have control, which with Lucas would look like

969
00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:14,759
Speaker 2: he gets into your face, that you actually sit up

970
00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:19,080
Speaker 2: taller or stand taller. You put your hands on his shoulders.

971
00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:23,279
Speaker 2: You control the closeness. You bring him in to you

972
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:27,560
Speaker 2: for the embrace, you bring him into you for the kiss.

973
00:55:27,719 --> 00:55:31,880
Speaker 2: So you do the exposure therapy to yourself, but in

974
00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:34,160
Speaker 2: a way that you actually have control, which makes it

975
00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:38,040
Speaker 2: easier to tolerate. And each time he comes into your

976
00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:40,920
Speaker 2: space after that conversation and you feel yourself having an

977
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:45,200
Speaker 2: anxious reaction or feeling flooded or overwhelmed, you lean in

978
00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:48,680
Speaker 2: to the love and it's exposure therapy. It's going to

979
00:55:48,719 --> 00:55:52,160
Speaker 2: be hard, but the more you do it, the quicker

980
00:55:52,200 --> 00:55:55,520
Speaker 2: the anxiety associated with it goes down.

981
00:55:56,840 --> 00:55:59,120
Speaker 1: And what happens is the more you're exposed to it

982
00:56:00,239 --> 00:56:04,920
Speaker 1: catastrophic happens, the more you can relax when it happens again.

983
00:56:06,080 --> 00:56:08,439
Speaker 2: There is one more piece. You were thinking about your

984
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:11,680
Speaker 2: parents and your relationship with them. You wrote them the

985
00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:16,239
Speaker 2: letter initially, and we understand why it was hard to

986
00:56:16,600 --> 00:56:19,719
Speaker 2: get a word in. You Mum would quote scripture. You

987
00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:21,560
Speaker 2: know it would be a difficult conversation to have. So

988
00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:23,600
Speaker 2: let's just get all my feelings out in an email.

989
00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:25,560
Speaker 2: We think that might be a good approach this time

990
00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:27,600
Speaker 2: as well, but we think there needs to be something

991
00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:33,920
Speaker 2: communicated about. Look, I'm in fact as offended by your

992
00:56:34,040 --> 00:56:40,640
Speaker 2: views religiously as you are by mine, because in my

993
00:56:41,719 --> 00:56:45,560
Speaker 2: religious views, in my philosophy, parenting is a virtue that

994
00:56:45,600 --> 00:56:51,400
Speaker 2: should surpass all and so is unconditional love. And I

995
00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:57,359
Speaker 2: am not interested in hearing anymore that you think I'm

996
00:56:57,400 --> 00:56:59,759
Speaker 2: going to go to tell that you think who I

997
00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:04,000
Speaker 2: am is wrong. I am not interested in hearing it.

998
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:07,239
Speaker 2: And if we're to have a relationship, it has to

999
00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:12,120
Speaker 2: be one that starts at the basic respect of who

1000
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:16,520
Speaker 2: I am as a person. And I know you might

1001
00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:19,920
Speaker 2: have different feelings about it, have them, I do not

1002
00:57:20,120 --> 00:57:23,920
Speaker 2: want to hear them. And one day I'm going to

1003
00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:26,080
Speaker 2: find love again and I'm going to get married, and

1004
00:57:26,360 --> 00:57:30,440
Speaker 2: you are my family. I will invite you to that wedding,

1005
00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:33,280
Speaker 2: and if you want to have a relationship with me,

1006
00:57:33,760 --> 00:57:38,000
Speaker 2: you should come to it, because that's what loving families do.

1007
00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:43,000
Speaker 2: They put their differences aside to celebrate the happiness of

1008
00:57:43,040 --> 00:57:47,320
Speaker 2: one another. And that's what I'm going to expect. But

1009
00:57:47,760 --> 00:57:51,280
Speaker 2: going forward, I do not want to hear from any

1010
00:57:51,320 --> 00:57:55,480
Speaker 2: of you that you have judgment about who I am

1011
00:57:55,680 --> 00:57:56,360
Speaker 2: as a person.

1012
00:57:57,280 --> 00:57:59,680
Speaker 1: And this is going to go to your entire family,

1013
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:03,840
Speaker 1: including your siblings. I'm thinking about your sister who wasn't

1014
00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:06,840
Speaker 1: going to come to your wedding. It's for all of them,

1015
00:58:07,960 --> 00:58:11,600
Speaker 1: and what we'd like you to do is not have

1016
00:58:11,960 --> 00:58:17,320
Speaker 1: expectations around how they respond, but we'd like you to

1017
00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:21,520
Speaker 1: think about what it feels like to be able to

1018
00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:25,400
Speaker 1: say that so directly to them. You're not asking them

1019
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:30,000
Speaker 1: to change who they are, but you're asking them not

1020
00:58:30,160 --> 00:58:34,160
Speaker 1: to say to you, change who you are. And that's

1021
00:58:34,160 --> 00:58:38,640
Speaker 1: a starting point. And so what you're asking for is reciprocity,

1022
00:58:38,760 --> 00:58:42,360
Speaker 1: which you didn't have with Max because you didn't ask

1023
00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:44,920
Speaker 1: for it, and we'd like you to ask for it

1024
00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:45,600
Speaker 1: this time.

1025
00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:53,720
Speaker 3: Yes, you're very right.

1026
00:58:56,520 --> 00:58:59,600
Speaker 1: I think when he was with Max, he found a

1027
00:58:59,640 --> 00:59:01,960
Speaker 1: relationship that would make him feel safe because you wouldn't

1028
00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:04,680
Speaker 1: have to deal with his own issues that he was

1029
00:59:04,680 --> 00:59:08,040
Speaker 1: bringing into it, but it wasn't necessarily satisfying. And now

1030
00:59:08,080 --> 00:59:11,080
Speaker 1: with Lucas, he's in a relationship that could be satisfying,

1031
00:59:11,560 --> 00:59:14,840
Speaker 1: but it doesn't necessarily feel safe because he's going to

1032
00:59:14,880 --> 00:59:19,120
Speaker 1: have to manage some of this abandonment. And I think

1033
00:59:19,120 --> 00:59:21,160
Speaker 1: it's going to go really well with Lucas. This week,

1034
00:59:21,480 --> 00:59:24,160
Speaker 1: Lucas sounds like somebody who's really able to offer him

1035
00:59:24,160 --> 00:59:27,600
Speaker 1: something that he didn't have with his parents and didn't

1036
00:59:27,600 --> 00:59:30,600
Speaker 1: have with Max in the same way, and I think

1037
00:59:30,640 --> 00:59:32,400
Speaker 1: it's going to be tricky with his family.

1038
00:59:32,920 --> 00:59:35,000
Speaker 2: I think it's going to go well with Lucas in

1039
00:59:35,040 --> 00:59:37,080
Speaker 2: the sense that he will do it and Lucas will

1040
00:59:37,120 --> 00:59:40,640
Speaker 2: respond well. I think though, that he's still going to

1041
00:59:40,640 --> 00:59:43,200
Speaker 2: feel anxious, because the idea of doing that is you

1042
00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:45,520
Speaker 2: keep doing it to beat down the anxiety. But at

1043
00:59:45,560 --> 00:59:47,760
Speaker 2: first the anxiety will be there, so he'll be doing

1044
00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:49,760
Speaker 2: the right thing and it won't feel like he's doing

1045
00:59:49,800 --> 00:59:51,480
Speaker 2: the right thing. So I just hope he can keep

1046
00:59:51,520 --> 00:59:53,720
Speaker 2: at it despite that, because that's how it is. At

1047
00:59:53,720 --> 00:59:55,800
Speaker 2: the beginning. You're doing the thing you need, but your

1048
00:59:55,800 --> 00:59:57,760
Speaker 2: insights are telling you it's not, because that's what you've

1049
00:59:57,800 --> 00:59:58,320
Speaker 2: been avoiding.

1050
00:59:58,480 --> 01:00:00,840
Speaker 1: And that's why we tell people do the up. Normally

1051
01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:03,160
Speaker 1: we say listen to your gut, do what your gut says,

1052
01:00:03,200 --> 01:00:05,880
Speaker 1: and when somebody is in this situation, we say your

1053
01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:08,080
Speaker 1: gut is lying to you. Do the opposite.

1054
01:00:08,280 --> 01:00:10,160
Speaker 2: I actually say, much more, your gut is lying to

1055
01:00:10,200 --> 01:00:11,919
Speaker 2: you than I do. Follow your gut. I don't say

1056
01:00:11,920 --> 01:00:14,680
Speaker 2: for follow your gut a lot. I always say like no, no,

1057
01:00:15,600 --> 01:00:20,200
Speaker 2: don't listen to that. I think with his parents it's

1058
01:00:20,200 --> 01:00:23,720
Speaker 2: going to be much more problematic because I think they're

1059
01:00:23,720 --> 01:00:26,280
Speaker 2: going to have a hard time hearing it. I think

1060
01:00:26,320 --> 01:00:29,880
Speaker 2: they feel righteous and they feel that the perspective is

1061
01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:32,840
Speaker 2: correct and his is incorrect in every possible way. And

1062
01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:35,920
Speaker 2: I hope he can stand up and fight for what

1063
01:00:36,040 --> 01:00:36,640
Speaker 2: he deserves.

1064
01:00:37,160 --> 01:00:38,720
Speaker 1: Either way, I think this is going to be a

1065
01:00:38,720 --> 01:00:47,360
Speaker 1: good experience for him. You're listening to Dear Therapists for

1066
01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:50,200
Speaker 1: my Heart Radio. We'll be back after a short break.

1067
01:01:02,800 --> 01:01:04,840
Speaker 2: So we heard back from Doug and we asked him

1068
01:01:04,880 --> 01:01:07,000
Speaker 2: to do a couple of things, both of which involved

1069
01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:10,240
Speaker 2: him taking control. So let's see how that went for him.

1070
01:01:10,520 --> 01:01:14,040
Speaker 3: Hey, Laurie and Guy. So I've been working on opening

1071
01:01:14,160 --> 01:01:16,240
Speaker 3: up and leaning into the love that Lucas has been

1072
01:01:16,240 --> 01:01:20,160
Speaker 3: showing me. We had a really open and honest conversation

1073
01:01:20,400 --> 01:01:22,680
Speaker 3: about how I can feel overwhelmed at times when he

1074
01:01:22,720 --> 01:01:26,000
Speaker 3: comes too close because I'm afraid of being too intimate

1075
01:01:26,040 --> 01:01:29,440
Speaker 3: and vulnerable with him. We talked about my family and

1076
01:01:29,440 --> 01:01:31,840
Speaker 3: I got to share with him how rejected I felt

1077
01:01:31,840 --> 01:01:33,640
Speaker 3: by them and how I was carrying a lot of

1078
01:01:33,640 --> 01:01:37,760
Speaker 3: those fears and anxiety into our relationship. I was really

1079
01:01:37,800 --> 01:01:41,240
Speaker 3: nervous to have this conversation, but Lucas listened and was

1080
01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:44,800
Speaker 3: so supportive and understanding. I've also been working on the

1081
01:01:44,840 --> 01:01:48,680
Speaker 3: exposure piece and taking control in times when I'm feeling anxious.

1082
01:01:49,640 --> 01:01:52,800
Speaker 3: One time, after having this conversation, he noticed me pull

1083
01:01:52,880 --> 01:01:56,520
Speaker 3: away and asked if I was feeling overwhelmed. Normally I

1084
01:01:56,520 --> 01:01:59,360
Speaker 3: would have brushed those feelings aside and said I was fine,

1085
01:02:00,080 --> 01:02:02,360
Speaker 3: But this time I told him how it was feeling,

1086
01:02:02,520 --> 01:02:06,160
Speaker 3: and it felt so good to voice that. After opening

1087
01:02:06,240 --> 01:02:08,640
Speaker 3: up to Lucas Moore and feeling how supportive and loving

1088
01:02:08,680 --> 01:02:11,720
Speaker 3: he was, through that, I felt so much closer with him.

1089
01:02:12,280 --> 01:02:13,960
Speaker 3: He was also able to be there for me as

1090
01:02:14,000 --> 01:02:16,880
Speaker 3: I worked on the second part of my assignment, writing

1091
01:02:16,880 --> 01:02:20,640
Speaker 3: a letter to my family. This part was really difficult

1092
01:02:20,680 --> 01:02:22,480
Speaker 3: for me, and I put it off as long as

1093
01:02:22,520 --> 01:02:25,680
Speaker 3: I could. I had a really hard time being vulnerable

1094
01:02:25,680 --> 01:02:28,600
Speaker 3: with them and sharing how their words and actions hurt

1095
01:02:28,640 --> 01:02:32,360
Speaker 3: me again. My gut reaction was to avoid the confrontation

1096
01:02:32,680 --> 01:02:36,160
Speaker 3: and potential rejection, but I really want things to change.

1097
01:02:36,960 --> 01:02:39,880
Speaker 3: I started off by saying that I appreciated our relationship

1098
01:02:40,240 --> 01:02:42,560
Speaker 3: and that it has gotten better over the years, and

1099
01:02:42,560 --> 01:02:45,160
Speaker 3: that I wanted to continue building on that, but that

1100
01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:48,680
Speaker 3: I also wanted to set some boundaries. I told them

1101
01:02:48,680 --> 01:02:51,440
Speaker 3: I no longer wanted to hear their judgment about who

1102
01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:54,000
Speaker 3: I am as a person, and that I'm not interested

1103
01:02:54,160 --> 01:02:58,520
Speaker 3: in hearing any more disrespectful and invalidating questions or comments

1104
01:02:59,760 --> 01:03:02,120
Speaker 3: to them. That I don't just want to be tolerated.

1105
01:03:02,440 --> 01:03:04,760
Speaker 3: I want to be loved fully for who I am,

1106
01:03:05,080 --> 01:03:09,320
Speaker 3: all the parts of me. I felt incredibly scared to

1107
01:03:09,400 --> 01:03:12,400
Speaker 3: hit that send button, and my anxiety was literally through

1108
01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:15,800
Speaker 3: the roof. After I sent it, Lucas gave me a

1109
01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:18,400
Speaker 3: big hug, a kiss on the cheek, and told me

1110
01:03:18,440 --> 01:03:21,400
Speaker 3: how proud he was of me. It did feel like

1111
01:03:21,440 --> 01:03:24,120
Speaker 3: a huge weight had been lifted off my shoulders, and

1112
01:03:24,200 --> 01:03:26,800
Speaker 3: it also felt really good to not be alone in

1113
01:03:26,800 --> 01:03:30,680
Speaker 3: that moment. I haven't heard back from anyone yet, and

1114
01:03:30,720 --> 01:03:33,120
Speaker 3: even though I'm still really worried about what they'll say

1115
01:03:33,160 --> 01:03:36,480
Speaker 3: and how they'll respond, I'm hopeful that this will be

1116
01:03:36,520 --> 01:03:39,480
Speaker 3: the next step in having a healthier relationship with my family.

1117
01:03:40,680 --> 01:03:42,760
Speaker 3: I know moving forward, it's still going to be a

1118
01:03:42,800 --> 01:03:45,360
Speaker 3: difficult journey for me to get to a place where

1119
01:03:45,400 --> 01:03:49,000
Speaker 3: I feel more comfortable being vulnerable, but I am committed

1120
01:03:49,000 --> 01:03:52,440
Speaker 3: to doing this work. Thank you again, I appreciate you both.

1121
01:03:56,840 --> 01:04:00,680
Speaker 1: What Doug has come to realize through doing these exercizes

1122
01:04:01,040 --> 01:04:03,120
Speaker 1: is what so many of our patients in therapy come

1123
01:04:03,200 --> 01:04:05,960
Speaker 1: to realize, which is that when you try to protect

1124
01:04:06,040 --> 01:04:09,960
Speaker 1: yourself using a method that worked when you were younger,

1125
01:04:10,480 --> 01:04:15,960
Speaker 1: it generally doesn't work when you're older and you have agency.

1126
01:04:17,120 --> 01:04:21,480
Speaker 1: And so when he started talking to Lucas about feeling

1127
01:04:21,480 --> 01:04:26,760
Speaker 1: overwhelmed what happens when he becomes vulnerable, he thought the

1128
01:04:26,800 --> 01:04:29,640
Speaker 1: world would crash down, and you know, Lucas would get

1129
01:04:29,720 --> 01:04:31,920
Speaker 1: rid of him, because that's what happened in his family.

1130
01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:35,680
Speaker 1: You can't talk about these things. But instead Lucas came closer,

1131
01:04:35,720 --> 01:04:38,040
Speaker 1: and not only did he come closer, but he ended

1132
01:04:38,120 --> 01:04:42,920
Speaker 1: up supporting him both in their relationship but also in

1133
01:04:43,440 --> 01:04:46,920
Speaker 1: what he wanted to say to his family. So it

1134
01:04:47,040 --> 01:04:50,080
Speaker 1: was really a lesson in what happens when we can

1135
01:04:50,120 --> 01:04:53,520
Speaker 1: separate out how we protect ourselves as children and how

1136
01:04:53,520 --> 01:04:56,120
Speaker 1: that doesn't really protect us but actually holds us back

1137
01:04:56,200 --> 01:04:56,880
Speaker 1: as adults.

1138
01:04:57,240 --> 01:05:00,440
Speaker 2: I completely agree, and I think that the fear hand

1139
01:05:00,800 --> 01:05:05,720
Speaker 2: about sending the email to his family was that he

1140
01:05:05,840 --> 01:05:10,080
Speaker 2: knew that if they responded poorly, he would have to

1141
01:05:10,160 --> 01:05:13,560
Speaker 2: draw a line. And I think that the anxiety was

1142
01:05:13,600 --> 01:05:16,120
Speaker 2: because he knew that he had signed up for that,

1143
01:05:16,240 --> 01:05:21,120
Speaker 2: and I believe he will if they respond poorly, and

1144
01:05:21,160 --> 01:05:23,760
Speaker 2: I think they're likely to respond poorly from what I've

1145
01:05:23,800 --> 01:05:26,560
Speaker 2: heard so far, So I really hope if he's listening,

1146
01:05:27,200 --> 01:05:30,360
Speaker 2: he has Lucas around him when he needs to maintain

1147
01:05:30,400 --> 01:05:33,360
Speaker 2: that boundary, and that he does so with the same

1148
01:05:33,400 --> 01:05:36,000
Speaker 2: conviction with which he sent the email and with which

1149
01:05:36,000 --> 01:05:37,480
Speaker 2: he meant every word that he wrote.

1150
01:05:37,720 --> 01:05:39,560
Speaker 1: I think the reason that he was ready now to

1151
01:05:40,640 --> 01:05:44,680
Speaker 1: send that letter with that boundary is that as he

1152
01:05:44,760 --> 01:05:49,080
Speaker 1: becomes more truthful with himself and with the relationships in

1153
01:05:49,120 --> 01:05:52,920
Speaker 1: his life, it's hard to not be truthful with these

1154
01:05:52,960 --> 01:05:56,600
Speaker 1: other relationships in his family, and he's ready to ask

1155
01:05:56,680 --> 01:06:00,160
Speaker 1: for that, And he has the support of someone who

1156
01:06:00,160 --> 01:06:02,520
Speaker 1: really sees the truth of who he is and is

1157
01:06:02,520 --> 01:06:04,960
Speaker 1: there for him. And I think that makes a big difference,

1158
01:06:05,160 --> 01:06:07,600
Speaker 1: so that no matter what his family does with that letter,

1159
01:06:08,320 --> 01:06:15,000
Speaker 1: he can feel good that he sent it. Hey, fellow travelers,

1160
01:06:15,400 --> 01:06:18,160
Speaker 1: if you're enjoying our podcast each week. Don't forget to

1161
01:06:18,200 --> 01:06:20,960
Speaker 1: subscribe for free so that you don't miss any episodes,

1162
01:06:21,400 --> 01:06:24,280
Speaker 1: and please help support Dear Therapists by telling your friends

1163
01:06:24,280 --> 01:06:27,320
Speaker 1: about it and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. Your

1164
01:06:27,320 --> 01:06:29,560
Speaker 1: reviews really help people to find the show.

1165
01:06:29,680 --> 01:06:32,800
Speaker 4: And thanks to your reviews and support, we'll be back

1166
01:06:32,840 --> 01:06:35,800
Speaker 4: next year with an all new season of Dear Therapist

1167
01:06:35,840 --> 01:06:38,720
Speaker 4: Sessions that we can't wait to bring you now. While

1168
01:06:38,720 --> 01:06:41,160
Speaker 4: we're off taping, don't forget to catch up on all

1169
01:06:41,200 --> 01:06:43,560
Speaker 4: of the season one and season two episodes you missed

1170
01:06:43,960 --> 01:06:44,800
Speaker 4: or want to hear again.

1171
01:06:44,960 --> 01:06:46,800
Speaker 1: And if you'd like to apply to be in session

1172
01:06:46,800 --> 01:06:49,440
Speaker 1: with us on season three, just send us an email

1173
01:06:49,560 --> 01:06:55,400
Speaker 1: to Lorian Guy at iHeartMedia dot com. That's l Ori A. N. D.

1174
01:06:56,000 --> 01:06:59,959
Speaker 1: G u Y at iHeartMedia dot com. You can also

1175
01:07:00,120 --> 01:07:01,680
Speaker 1: find our email in the show notes.

1176
01:07:02,360 --> 01:07:03,680
Speaker 2: See you back in Session soon.

1177
01:07:05,000 --> 01:07:08,640
Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited

1178
01:07:08,680 --> 01:07:12,840
Speaker 1: by Mike Johns, Josh Fisher, and Chris Childs. Our interns

1179
01:07:12,880 --> 01:07:16,400
Speaker 1: are Dorit Corwin and Silver Lifton. Special thanks to Alison

1180
01:07:16,440 --> 01:07:19,920
Speaker 1: Wright and to our podcast Fairy Godmother Katie Couric.

1181
01:07:20,440 --> 01:07:22,840
Speaker 2: Deotherapist is a production of iHeartRadio,