1 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:11,080 Speaker 1: Welcome to Creature feature production of iHeartRadio. I'm your host 2 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 1: of Many Parasites, Katie Golden. I studied psychology and evolutionary biology. 3 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: Today on the show, I am interviewing wildlife expert, biologist 4 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:23,759 Speaker 1: and filmmaker Forrest Galante. Welcome. 5 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 2: Hey, how's it Gallan. Good to see U. 6 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: I'm very excited to talk to you because you deal 7 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: with a lot of personal interaction with wildlife, which is 8 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:39,879 Speaker 1: way more bold than I've ever been willing to be with. 9 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:44,879 Speaker 1: I'm sort of a I'm a binoculars type person. I 10 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:49,239 Speaker 1: like to observe from a distance, I would say, but 11 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 1: you are very drawn to getting right in there. So first, 12 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: just describe a bit for people what you do in 13 00:00:56,280 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: terms of your videos and your work in wildlife education 14 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: in biology. 15 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. Sure, so, I'm a wildlife biologist who primarily focuses 16 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 2: on critically endangered edge of extinction species. I work with 17 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 2: a plethora of wild animals, from those that most people 18 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 2: have never heard of to things like elephants and lions, 19 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 2: and you know, we do a lot of different stuff 20 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 2: from basically the ultimate game of hide and seek, which 21 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 2: is figuring out whether or not some of these animals 22 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 2: are actually extinct and or if they've just you know, 23 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:32,760 Speaker 2: been overlooked for a number of years. To a lot 24 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:36,119 Speaker 2: of human wildlife conflict mitigation, which is something that I've 25 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 2: worked on a lot, where we translocate animals that are 26 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 2: in human wildlife conflict zones, come up with creative solutions 27 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 2: like basically any non lethal mitigation methods. And then you know, 28 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 2: another field that I work on is invasive species figuring 29 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 2: out eradication efforts, how to calmbat invasive species areas in 30 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 2: which invasive species are harming native flora and fauna and ecosystems, 31 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 2: And you know, it's a lengthy combination of stuff, and 32 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 2: a lot of that stuff can be seen on Discovery 33 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 2: channel Animal Planet. I recently launched a YouTube channel that 34 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 2: is growing like Gangbusters, which is a lot of fun 35 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 2: where I get to do sort of more intimate, less polished, 36 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 2: more just kind of fun stuff that I want to 37 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 2: do in the vein of those three categories. And you know, 38 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:25,640 Speaker 2: anything with wildlife is what I like doing and communicating. 39 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 1: One of the things that is so difficult in terms 40 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 1: of human interactions with wildlife is the there's when you 41 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 1: have an ecosystem, you have like this very delicate balance. 42 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:43,520 Speaker 1: In the past maybe fifty one hundred years, we've just 43 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 1: kind of come to understand like how much our behavior 44 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 1: has impacted wildlife, including things like, hey, maybe we should 45 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 1: stop taking mongy's and throwing them at snakes to make 46 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 1: them kill the snakes, because that actually has a negative 47 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 1: impact on the environ I mean, we've done so many 48 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 1: things that has been you know, unintentionally harmful, sometimes intentionally 49 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 1: harmful where we're just like, hey, we want to wipe 50 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: out these animals because we're annoyed by them. And so 51 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:18,119 Speaker 1: do you think nowadays, do people really in general have 52 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:21,920 Speaker 1: like an understanding of how their behavior impacts animal species 53 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 1: or is it's still sort of sometimes a struggle to 54 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 1: communicate to communities like hey, like we actually, yes, this 55 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:31,640 Speaker 1: is just like a tiny fish that maybe is not 56 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 1: very charismatic, but we do need to protect it. 57 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 2: I think the general understanding, the general perception has certainly 58 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 2: shifted substantially from where it used to be. You know, 59 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 2: the idea of introducing cane toads to eat beetles and 60 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 2: mongeese to quell rat populations and things like that, that's 61 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 2: a thing of the past. We now understand the massive 62 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 2: ramifications negative ramifications that human induced introductions like that have, 63 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 2: and I think, you know, generally public perception has changed. 64 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 2: I think it's become a little pendulous where it's probably 65 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 2: swung too far in the wrong direction a little bit, 66 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 2: and then it will end up getting back to neutrality. 67 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 2: And what I mean by that is, you know, now 68 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 2: if you open up Instagram, you go on I kind 69 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 2: of go on my Instagram without seeing a gorgeous gallon 70 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:18,920 Speaker 2: of bikini swimming next to a great white shark, which 71 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 2: is probably also not something we should be encouraging, right Like, 72 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 2: it's sort of it's swung a little bit too far, 73 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:27,040 Speaker 2: and they're all you know, the same thing with people 74 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 2: from PTA that go out and get your grocery store 75 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 2: lobster and dump them into the wrong ocean because they 76 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:34,360 Speaker 2: think they're doing good for the world. You know that 77 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:36,559 Speaker 2: they're not. They're actually harming the world. So I think 78 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 2: the pendulum went from two extreme in one direction to 79 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:42,279 Speaker 2: probably too extreme in the other, and now it's starting 80 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 2: to backshift to a place of better understanding, more neutrality. 81 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 2: And that's exactly what we need, you know, we don't 82 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:52,479 Speaker 2: need people out there just destroying and consuming and throwing 83 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:54,919 Speaker 2: out invasive species for the heck of it. We also 84 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 2: don't need people that are eco terrorists in the sense 85 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 2: of robbing grocery stores to inter deduce main lobster into 86 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 2: southern California, you know, because yeah's good for the individual lobster. 87 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 2: We need we need a nice like everything in life, 88 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 2: we need something in the middle where we go, Okay, 89 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 2: we have a good understanding of this. Here are the 90 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 2: good things to do, here are the bad things to do, 91 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:16,279 Speaker 2: and here's how we can manage it, and we're okay. 92 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 2: We're in a We're in a time and place in 93 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:21,159 Speaker 2: human history, and I don't foresee that changing, certainly not 94 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 2: in our lifetime, where pretty much all wildlife and ecosystems 95 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 2: have to be managed. At this point, there are so 96 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 2: many people on the planet, there's so much development construction. 97 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 2: We don't have the luxury of just being like, leave 98 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 2: it alone, let it be like that. That that's the 99 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 2: thing of the past. For the majority of wild spaces 100 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:39,679 Speaker 2: in the planet. Most of it has to be managed 101 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 2: today by human beings, and so we need to be 102 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 2: good dosins of that. 103 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, I I of the uh releasing lobsters into their 104 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 1: non native habitats. I've seen videos of people buying goldfish 105 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 1: from pet stores and then releasing them into their like 106 00:05:56,680 --> 00:06:02,039 Speaker 1: local pond. Don't absolutely do not do that. The goldfish 107 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:07,160 Speaker 1: does not yearn for freedom. The goldfish is not going 108 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:11,719 Speaker 1: to be a native species of carp to whatever local 109 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:16,360 Speaker 1: water system you have, and it's could devastate the local 110 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 1: species there. The best thing you can do for a 111 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:23,159 Speaker 1: pet store goldfish, if you feel sorry for it, is 112 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 1: to get it a nice, big tank and not overfeed it. 113 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 1: But I think people like they'll see something like that, 114 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 1: like a pet store goldfish, and think like this, this 115 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 1: poor thing is sad, and so I need to do something. 116 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 1: And I think there's also like a lot of with 117 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 1: social media, there's sometimes this like reward that you get, 118 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 1: like if you do some stunt like that and you 119 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:50,159 Speaker 1: get a lot of views, and so people want to 120 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:53,160 Speaker 1: do that. It's like if I've seen these horrible videos 121 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: where it's like clear that someone set up some situation 122 00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 1: where they're like quote unquote saving an animal, but they're not. 123 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: But they're not a wildlife expert, they're not a veterinarian, 124 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:05,840 Speaker 1: they don't know what they're doing, but they've created this 125 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 1: scenario where it's like, well, I'm now holding this like 126 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: wild animal, and then you get all this attention on 127 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 1: social media. But on the other hand, I think there 128 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 1: are a lot of people who genuinely desire to have positive, 129 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 1: safe interactions with wildlife in a non destructive way. Do 130 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 1: you have any advice for people who may see your 131 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 1: videos or something and like they recognize like, well, I'm 132 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 1: not an expert and I don't want to harm the 133 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 1: environment at all, but I also really want to have 134 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: this like personal relationship with wildlife. I want to get 135 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 1: in there and go on hikes or go on excursions 136 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 1: and like get as close to wildlife as I can 137 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 1: without hurting it. Like what advice would you have for people? 138 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 2: Yeah? Do it. I mean I think that the best 139 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 2: way to learn is hands on learning, you know. But 140 00:07:57,120 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 2: I'm not saying go out and pick up a rattlesnake 141 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 2: because you saw someone on YouTube. Do it. Everything you 142 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 2: do in life. It's just like driving a car. Right. 143 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 2: Just because you see somebody in a movie on the 144 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 2: fast and furious jumping a car off a skyscraper and 145 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 2: landing in a helicopter doesn't mean you should take your 146 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 2: ninety three Toyota, Tacoma, and go try jumping off a skyscraper, right, Like, 147 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 2: you need to learn about driving and get a driver's license. 148 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 1: Write that down just to remember that for the future. 149 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 2: But yes, go on, you need to, you know, learn 150 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 2: what driving is, study it. Go and get a driver's license, 151 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 2: you know, go slowly and then before you go on 152 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 2: the freeway. You know. It's the same thing with wildlife 153 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:36,959 Speaker 2: and every and basically anything in life you do. And 154 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:39,719 Speaker 2: the point of what I'm saying is education is key. Right. 155 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 2: The only reason that I'm able to actively do the 156 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 2: wildlife work that I do and share that on social 157 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 2: media is because I have a long standing background in 158 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 2: an education in it, and I'm never just harassing wildlife 159 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 2: for the sake of harassing it. You know, if you're like, oh, 160 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:56,959 Speaker 2: I want to go out there and mess with animals, 161 00:08:57,200 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 2: it's like, well, you shouldn't do that. But if you're like, oh, 162 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 2: I really want to work with animals, great, go and 163 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 2: get a job or volunteer. There's a bazillion citizen science 164 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 2: programs that would love your help, you know, pulling babyca 165 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 2: turtles out of the eggs and hatching them and letting 166 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 2: them go onto the beach, or collecting snakes for counts, 167 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 2: or the list goes on and on and on invasive species, 168 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:18,959 Speaker 2: blah blah blah blah blah. So do it. I think 169 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 2: people should absolutely do it. But you cannot just go 170 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 2: out there because somebody saw something on YouTube or because 171 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:27,560 Speaker 2: you just think it's the right thing to do and 172 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 2: just start messing with animals. Quite frankly, you're gonna end 173 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:31,960 Speaker 2: up getting hurt. So the animals, of course, are going 174 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:33,600 Speaker 2: to have a bad time, but you're gonna end up 175 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:35,320 Speaker 2: getting hurt. You know. If you're an amateur and you 176 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:37,959 Speaker 2: just decide to go start messing with venomous snakes or 177 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 2: trying to trap stuff or catch it, you're gonna get hurt. 178 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 2: There's no point to it. 179 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean, I think the citizen science aspect 180 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:49,320 Speaker 1: is really exciting because if you know, people might think like, well, 181 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 1: you know, I really want to go out there and 182 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:57,319 Speaker 1: like really come face to face with these wild animals. 183 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 1: But I don't have like a whole backgrounded and I 184 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 1: don't see any entry point for it. But like, there 185 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 1: are a lot of citizens science programs where you don't 186 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: necessarily have to be a trained biologist, but you go 187 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 1: and you volunteer and they will train you and then 188 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 1: you can do surveys, you can do work like I 189 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 1: used to do bird watching that actually would contribute to 190 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: a census of the local birds. So it was one 191 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 1: of my favorite things bird watching. Plus I got to 192 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:29,960 Speaker 1: help out. So it's like being able to be out 193 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:33,440 Speaker 1: in nature and you know, there are a lot of 194 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:35,560 Speaker 1: these these things where it's like, hey, you can like 195 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 1: actually go and try to catalog these from anything from 196 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:46,080 Speaker 1: fish to small mammals to megafauna anything. And you know, 197 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:49,320 Speaker 1: you don't have to be an expert, but if you 198 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:53,559 Speaker 1: look at where they need volunteers, they can teach you 199 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 1: like what to do on these surveys and you can 200 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 1: actually help and have that really awesome experience. 201 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 2: You purpose, which is a nice thing. You know. I 202 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 2: hate hiking, Katie. Most people wouldn't believe it because if 203 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 2: you watch me, I'll basically always have a backpackage. 204 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's hard for me to hard for me to 205 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 1: kind of understand that, given that it seems like most 206 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 1: of what you do is hiking. 207 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 2: Well, I hate it though. I've never understood people that 208 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 2: hike for the sake of hiking. I just don't understand 209 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 2: I don't see the enjoyment in it. But if I'm 210 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:26,320 Speaker 2: out on a bird survey, if I'm looking for her, 211 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:28,320 Speaker 2: if I know that at the end of that long 212 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 2: hike there's an incredible lake with an endemic species of 213 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 2: fish or turtle, I'll hike for weeks. Like that's a 214 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 2: motivator that has purpose to it. But hiking just to hike, 215 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 2: I've never personally understood. And while not everybody has to 216 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 2: share that sentiment, I think that people that do find 217 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 2: purpose in their wildlife work will find it far more 218 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 2: rewarding than just being like a lookie lou. Basically, I 219 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 2: mean like, oh, that's cool, look at that. If you're 220 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 2: if you're doing the LOOKI loo with purpose, it really 221 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 2: adds a lot of value to what you're doing and 222 00:11:57,520 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 2: you feel good about it. 223 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:02,199 Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, I've found that to be the case, especially 224 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 1: with like taking photographs of species, Like you can upload 225 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 1: photos that you've taken to like eye naturalists, to these 226 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:13,079 Speaker 1: citizen science programs, like even from like you don't even 227 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 1: have to be out in the wilderness. You can be 228 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 1: in your own backyard and you take a photo of 229 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:22,479 Speaker 1: something interesting and you send it into these these organizations. 230 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 1: Sometimes you can even catch like an invasive species and 231 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 1: say like, oh, I found this in my backyard at 232 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: this time, at this date, in this location, and that's 233 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 1: really helpful, and it feels like almost like you're catching pokemon, 234 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:41,680 Speaker 1: but for the sake of the local ecology exactly, exactly right. 235 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 1: So I am really interested in the topic of invasive species. 236 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: And so why is it so important to keep track 237 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 1: of invasive species? Since like they are you know, they're 238 00:12:56,679 --> 00:13:00,040 Speaker 1: generally animals or their plants too. So why is it 239 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 1: important for us to care whether there is some animal 240 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 1: that you know isn't native to the area who seems 241 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 1: to be doing really well. For instance, like if you 242 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 1: have a species of fish, say that is now becoming 243 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:18,679 Speaker 1: more populous, that was actually not from the area that 244 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:22,719 Speaker 1: was introduced somehow, why is that of importance? 245 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 2: Uh? Yeah, I mean mostly because of the habitat destructed 246 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 2: because of not habitat, but the destruction that they cause. 247 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 2: I mean, for the most part, when you introduce and 248 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:35,920 Speaker 2: this is not always the case. Some some invasive species 249 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 2: are pretty benign. They don't do a whole lot of damage. 250 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 2: But most of the time, I'd say, you know, don't 251 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 2: quote me on this ninety percent or greater of the time. 252 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 2: An animal that is displaced and released into a new 253 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 2: ecosystem that successfully reproduces is a big problem for a 254 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:56,319 Speaker 2: native animal because if that little species of fish is 255 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 2: put into a new pond where it's never been before 256 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 2: and all of a sudden is pre and thriving, that 257 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:04,320 Speaker 2: means that it's out competing with the existing species that 258 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:07,560 Speaker 2: are there for resources. That resource can be food, that 259 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 2: resource can be space, and ultimately what that means is 260 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:15,559 Speaker 2: the native inhabitants of that ecosystem will be edging closer 261 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 2: and closer to extinction. Because if you take let's just say, 262 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 2: a largemouth bass and you throw it in a pond 263 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 2: that historically has only had you know, California roaches in it, 264 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 2: which is a native fish we have here in California, Well, 265 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 2: those largemouth bass are going to out compete it for space. 266 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 2: They're going to start eating up all the roaches, and 267 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 2: over time there will be no roaches left, and there'll 268 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 2: be a bunch of really big fat bass. But guess what, eventually, 269 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 2: when the bass have eaten all the roaches and there's 270 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 2: nothing but big fat bass left, all the bass are 271 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 2: then going to die because there's no food left for them, 272 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 2: there's nothing else left for them to survive. This is 273 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 2: an oversimplified version of what happens, but if you think 274 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 2: about it like that, ultimately those largemouth bass will collapse 275 00:14:57,680 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 2: and you'll have a big dead zone where a hell, 276 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 2: the population and an ecosystem used to thrive. So that's 277 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 2: why we have to monitor it. We can't just let 278 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 2: species go run rampant all over and chuck stuff everywhere 279 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 2: we want it to be. And a perfect example of 280 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 2: that is Florida. Right, Florida is just a mess. Like everything, 281 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 2: there are invasive species everywhere. Everything survives and thrives there. 282 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 2: You've got really really irresponsible people doing things like chameleon ranching, 283 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 2: which is letting go chameleons. You've got all these green 284 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 2: iguanas that are eating all the native plants and vegetation. 285 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 2: You've got burmese python that have reduced the meso predator 286 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 2: population of things like raccoons and apossums and native species 287 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 2: like that down by ninety percent in some areas. You know, 288 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 2: it's just it's a mess. And so if you allow 289 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 2: things like that to continue, you'll have a lot of 290 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 2: die off you'll lose a lot of species diversity, and 291 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 2: species diversity is the key to a healthy planet. 292 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 1: So are a lot of invasive species from the exotic 293 00:15:57,960 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 1: pet trade? Do you think? 294 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 2: Depends where you go, certainly not the majority, Definitely the minority. 295 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 2: In Florida, I'd say it's the majority, but globally it's 296 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 2: definitely the minority. Most invasive species have been brought there 297 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 2: by man, either through you know, agricultural trafficking or you know, 298 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 2: just aboard something they didn't realize, like the zebra muscle, 299 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 2: for instance, is a perfect example that you know, that's 300 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 2: a tiny little muscle that grips onto the hulls of boats, 301 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 2: and the second you put your boat into a new 302 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 2: body of water, they spawn, and all of a sudden 303 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 2: you have a new ecosystem that is flooded by zebra muscles, 304 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 2: which does all kinds of damage. They take up all 305 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 2: the space on the bottom and everything else. And that 306 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 2: has nothing to do with pet trade or food or 307 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 2: anything else. It's just an invasive species that sticks to boats. 308 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 2: So you know, the majority are not from the pet trade, 309 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 2: but there are some very very bad ones like the 310 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 2: Burmese pythons, the green iguanas, a whole lot of species 311 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 2: of fish like the plecostumus armored catfish that are from 312 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 2: the pet trade that have caused a lot of damage. 313 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:06,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, never never if you have exotic pets, which 314 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:10,640 Speaker 1: can be tricky and of in itself, like, never release them. 315 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 1: Never release any Like if you have a fish tank 316 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 1: full of fish and you have to move, never, just 317 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 1: like release them into your local pond, local lake, whatever. 318 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 1: Most likely they'll just die. But if they on the 319 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:31,960 Speaker 1: off chance that they don't like, that could be an 320 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 1: even bigger problem. It's hard, I think, in general to 321 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 1: realize that, like they're a tiny animal, like a little 322 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:40,879 Speaker 1: zebra muscle or a little fish, could do much harm 323 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 1: if it like gets out even a I mean, actually, 324 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:47,199 Speaker 1: what can be really bad is like invasive plants. So 325 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 1: like you have an aquarium plant and like you you know, 326 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:54,160 Speaker 1: flush it down or you it gets down a drain 327 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 1: and then it gets into the local sort of water 328 00:17:56,080 --> 00:18:00,159 Speaker 1: system and that plant can just start taking over. So 329 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 1: it's like, you know, animals and plants are so have 330 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 1: so much of a keen desire to survive that a 331 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:14,120 Speaker 1: fairly innocuous action like cleaning out your fish tank and 332 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 1: rinsing these some of these plants like down the sink 333 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:21,640 Speaker 1: or something could lead to some really bad consequences. 334 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:24,479 Speaker 2: I would hope that people just sort of know that 335 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 2: and think that if they're getting into the pet trade 336 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:28,919 Speaker 2: but you know, or not pet trade but pet hobby. 337 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 2: But you know, you never know. People are people can 338 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 2: be pretty dumb. 339 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 1: It's education, right, Like you if there's a pet store 340 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 1: that's just like, hey, here's some fish and here's some plants, 341 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 1: and they don't really tell you anything about about them, 342 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: how to take care of them, or like any of 343 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:45,680 Speaker 1: the perils of like do not make sure that this 344 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 1: stuff doesn't get down like a storm drain. You know, 345 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:51,399 Speaker 1: people may it may just never occur to them that 346 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 1: like a tiny little plant from a fish tank could 347 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:58,400 Speaker 1: cause any harm should it be released. So I think 348 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 1: it's just so important for people to you understand that. 349 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 1: And I think like most people who are like experienced, 350 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:10,920 Speaker 1: you know, aquarists or animal owners do appreciate that or 351 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 1: understand that. But yeah, for sure, I mean, it's it's 352 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:16,680 Speaker 1: something where it's just a domino effect that it is hard. 353 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:20,160 Speaker 1: It's hard to conceive of that you could have such 354 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:23,120 Speaker 1: a great impact, but just through kind of an accident, 355 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 1: but it definitely can happen. So do you ever find 356 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 1: an animal that is outside of its range? Like you'll 357 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 1: find something that is like not what you're expecting to 358 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:40,399 Speaker 1: find there, but it is not actually an invasive species. 359 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 2: Uh oh yeah, I mean that's I mean, that's a 360 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 2: big part of what I've made my career doing is 361 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 2: finding lost animals. But more so than finding lost animals, 362 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 2: like new distributions. I mean I had to run in 363 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:55,440 Speaker 2: with a hammerhead four hundred miles outside of its own 364 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 2: range when I was just a teenager. I redefined the 365 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:03,399 Speaker 2: species distribution of Mastakophas lateralis, which is the uh I 366 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:05,680 Speaker 2: think it's what's the common name, the pink coach whip, 367 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:08,720 Speaker 2: stripe coach whip. I'm not sure lateral coach whip would 368 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 2: be lined coach whip. I don't know. Yeah, the species 369 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:14,159 Speaker 2: distribution and range distribution for them. Yeah, I mean we 370 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:16,880 Speaker 2: find animals outside of their known range all the time. 371 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:18,480 Speaker 2: I mean I put up a video on that YouTube 372 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 2: channel I was mentioning where we found the first ever 373 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 2: record of a leopard epaulet shark in two feet Papua 374 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:29,159 Speaker 2: New Guinea, which everybody had historically said there are no 375 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 2: leopard epaulets in two Fee because of the bathometric barriers. 376 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:35,719 Speaker 2: It's too deep, the canyons are too severe. These shallow 377 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:39,040 Speaker 2: water species wouldn't go here. And I got there and 378 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 2: started talking to the local fishermen and they're like, oh, yeah, 379 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 2: they're all over here. And I was like, no way, 380 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 2: do you think you can find one? Yeah, we'll find 381 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 2: you some tonight. And they went out and found one 382 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 2: in like half an hour. 383 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 1: Yow. 384 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 2: And you know, we redefined that species distribution as it 385 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 2: was known to science by four hundred miles, you know, 386 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 2: like just like that, and all the Nati, not all, 387 00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 2: but many of the native people knew about it, but 388 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 2: science was on aware of it because science dictated that 389 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:04,720 Speaker 2: due to these certain barriers and the fact that there 390 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 2: had been no records, there's no way that this animal 391 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 2: could be here. However, the native people don't pay attention 392 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 2: to that, and they're like, yeah, animals right here. Yeah, Yeah, 393 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:16,440 Speaker 2: we encounter that all the time. So yeah, that's that's 394 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 2: a very common thing that we deal with while doing 395 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:20,160 Speaker 2: surveys in the field. 396 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's an interesting thing to me because I think 397 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 1: that there is this sometimes it happens where you'll have, 398 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:31,119 Speaker 1: you know, a population of people who are familiar with 399 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:35,880 Speaker 1: the area that have some knowledge of animals. That's either 400 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 1: you know, current knowledge because they fish there and they 401 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 1: interact with see life all the time, or it's something 402 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: that's passed along culturally through generations, and that's like it's 403 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:51,360 Speaker 1: kind of placed in like this separate category as sometimes 404 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:54,199 Speaker 1: it's placed in a separate category as science because it's like, well, 405 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:59,880 Speaker 1: these are observations by you know, non professionals, and they're 406 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 1: not really they're not cataloged in the same way that 407 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:08,400 Speaker 1: scientific observations are, but they seem really valuable. Like does 408 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 1: that play a part a lot in terms of like 409 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 1: finding animals in new ranges or finding animals that were 410 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:17,879 Speaker 1: thought to be extinct or not exist in a certain area. 411 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 2: You mean just just native or just amateur records of them. 412 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, Yeah, I mean, of. 413 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 2: Course, especially from native people, you know. I think that's 414 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 2: the most significant is working with local hunters, fishermen, things 415 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:37,359 Speaker 2: like that, people that are out the best scientists. I've 416 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 2: always said this, and I get a lot of criticism 417 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 2: from academics for it, but I really don't care because 418 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:46,920 Speaker 2: it's in my opinion, the truth the best scientists, observational scientists, 419 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 2: are people that are interacting with the wildlife every single day. 420 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 2: They're not people sitting in an office that have written papers. Sure, 421 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,199 Speaker 2: there's two different facets to that, right. The people that 422 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:57,480 Speaker 2: are the academics, they might be able to tell you 423 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:00,679 Speaker 2: the specifics of the scale structure and the jaw morphology 424 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:02,400 Speaker 2: and this and that that the local hunter would never 425 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:04,360 Speaker 2: know because when he finds it, he walps its head 426 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:06,960 Speaker 2: off and eats it. But they don't know the first 427 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 2: thing about tracking it, finding it, understanding its its role 428 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 2: in the environment, and how it behaves around other animals. 429 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,159 Speaker 2: Whereas that local who might even know the name of 430 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,639 Speaker 2: the animal we're talking about, he can actually understand that 431 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,239 Speaker 2: species because he spends a lot of time observing it. 432 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:25,160 Speaker 2: He's out there hunting it, fishing for it, chasing it around, 433 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,359 Speaker 2: chasing around animals that compete with it, so on and 434 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 2: so forth, and so yeah, I mean, I wouldn't be 435 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 2: anywhere near the success rate that I've had if it 436 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 2: wasn't for all of the tremendous help from local native 437 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 2: people in every region, every location, everything that I that 438 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:43,680 Speaker 2: I've worked in, Because we need their help. I mean 439 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,399 Speaker 2: that's the only way that I get the information that 440 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 2: we get. And me just going in there blindly and 441 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 2: being like I know how to find stuff, I'd never 442 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 2: find anything. So yeah, you have to work with local, 443 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 2: local people, and you know, you have to take a 444 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 2: lot of it with a grain of salt, because in 445 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:02,159 Speaker 2: many of these nations there is lore and mystery and 446 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 2: tradition that aren't grounded in science. You know, like religion 447 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:08,439 Speaker 2: that isn't ground in science, things like that, but you 448 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 2: still have to observe and take in the tidbits of 449 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 2: it that are useful. 450 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 1: And yeah, yeah, it's something where it's like you can 451 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 1: use both the kind of more analytical, quantifiable aspect of 452 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:28,919 Speaker 1: science with the just immense amount of experience and time 453 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: that people who actually live there and live daily life 454 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 1: interacting with the local environs might have. Of these animals, 455 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 1: it seems like they're very they're very complementary things to 456 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,400 Speaker 1: each other, like both respecting that, like, hey, if they 457 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 1: say they've seen this or it's part of their folklore 458 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 1: that this animal is in this region, then like maybe 459 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 1: there's something to it, and then you know, respecting that 460 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:59,120 Speaker 1: and combining expertises seems really important. 461 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 2: Exactly right, exactly right. 462 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:06,239 Speaker 1: Have you ever been like truly extremely surprised, Like, like, 463 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:11,440 Speaker 1: what was the most surprising find for you in terms 464 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:15,119 Speaker 1: of finding an animal that was either thought not to 465 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:20,239 Speaker 1: exist in the region or thought to have been extinct. 466 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,440 Speaker 2: The most surprising find. I mean, we found eight species 467 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:26,720 Speaker 2: previously thought to be extinct, so each one of those 468 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:30,920 Speaker 2: is pretty surprising. You know, when when something is deemed extinct, 469 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 2: it's it doesn't mean it's hiding in a bush or 470 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:36,160 Speaker 2: around around a corner. It means it's gone. I think 471 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,920 Speaker 2: the one that was probably the most spine chilling, or well, 472 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 2: the first one was big the Zanzibar leopard, but holding 473 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 2: the Fernandina Island tortoise in my hand, holding an extinct 474 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 2: animal that you know, had the mythicalness of big Bigfoot 475 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:52,479 Speaker 2: because only one in history had ever been seen one 476 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 2: hundred and fourteen years prior, and me diving into a 477 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,680 Speaker 2: bush and picking up the second one that was that 478 00:25:57,800 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 2: was a pretty big shock. I mean, you know, it's 479 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 2: finding a tortoise on an island. That's not like finding 480 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:05,120 Speaker 2: something out in a giant jungle. You know, it's it's 481 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 2: like a finite area even because the big area. And yeah, 482 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 2: that was pretty surprising. So you know, all of these 483 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 2: stories made major news headlines and made a pretty big 484 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:17,640 Speaker 2: splash globally. So I think not the reason I say 485 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,560 Speaker 2: that is I don't think I was the only one surprised. Yeah, 486 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 2: I think the world was pretty surprised when we found 487 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:23,360 Speaker 2: some of these animals. 488 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 1: So, yeah, are there are there discoveries that are maybe 489 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:34,640 Speaker 1: less like sensational, Maybe an animal that's less charismatic that 490 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:38,760 Speaker 1: you wish people knew more about or appreciated more like 491 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 1: an animal that doesn't maybe win the popularity contest, but 492 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:49,120 Speaker 1: something that is either endangered or that you have found 493 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,720 Speaker 1: that you think it's really interesting, really exciting, but it's 494 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: just not something that gets as much love or attention. 495 00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:58,960 Speaker 2: No, I really don't believe in that at all. I 496 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 2: believe that it's much more about how it's communicated. And 497 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 2: one of the sad things about the world we live 498 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:08,280 Speaker 2: in is the conservation organizations that are doing such wonderful work. 499 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:10,080 Speaker 2: And I won't name any or throw them under the bus, 500 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:12,639 Speaker 2: but they do such great work. They're so terrible at 501 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:19,399 Speaker 2: their messaging and public facing. And you know, if you 502 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 2: know the field that we're discussing, you know who I'm 503 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 2: talking about. But some of their finds are tremendous. You know, 504 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 2: they rediscover incredible things or they redefine things that are unbelievable. 505 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,719 Speaker 2: And these are some of larger conservation organizations, and the 506 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 2: messaging and the public interfacing and the way that the 507 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:41,080 Speaker 2: information is disseminated is so poor that people don't get 508 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 2: excited about it, and some of them could be so grand. 509 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 2: And I think that's one of the differences between perhaps 510 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 2: what I do and what some of these very large 511 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:53,199 Speaker 2: conservation organizations do, is like I can find a tiny 512 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 2: little blind snake, which is a new species we rediscovered 513 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 2: just about two years ago now in literally a kitchen 514 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 2: dumpster in the back of a desert lodge in Peru, 515 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,199 Speaker 2: and get millions of people excited about it and to 516 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,400 Speaker 2: watch it because I am genuinely so passionate and excited 517 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 2: about it and so thrilled to find this thing, Whereas 518 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 2: some of these organizations can find an incredibly gorgeous, charming, 519 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 2: beautiful bird that's been lost for hundreds of years and 520 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 2: rediscover it and you know, a couple thousand people see it, 521 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 2: and that's it. And it's because of the way the 522 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 2: messaging is done and the public interfacing is done around 523 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 2: the species rediscovery, and it's it's really unfortunate because many 524 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:38,120 Speaker 2: times I've tried to offer my services and try to 525 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 2: I always try and promote the work that these organizations 526 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 2: are doing, and it's at no fault of their own. 527 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 2: I always try and promote it. I always share these 528 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 2: rediscoveries on my social media. But when you have somebody 529 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 2: that just publishes a paper, or you know, they make 530 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 2: like a really dry video with a bunch of still 531 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 2: images about the animal, it doesn't go anywhere. It doesn't 532 00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 2: do anything. That's a sad thing about academic papers. When's 533 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 2: the last I'm Katie and I are both interested in 534 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 2: this field. When's the last time you read an academic paper? 535 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 1: I mean I read them a lot, so I probably, yeah. 536 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:12,600 Speaker 2: That's good. I do a few days ago, Okay, I mean. 537 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 1: I don't read it. I don't read it from start 538 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 1: to end. I usually go through kind of skim through, 539 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 1: and then read the sections that irrelevant. Like the last 540 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 1: time I've actually sat down read every single page of 541 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 1: an academic paper has got to be like I don't know, 542 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,880 Speaker 1: many many months yeah. 543 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 2: I mean I'm the same. I have to read them 544 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 2: from my work obviously, and I skim the abstract and 545 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:37,640 Speaker 2: look at a couple sections, go cool, that was interesting. 546 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 2: But you know, that's it. And the majority of people, 547 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 2: which is what we need, by the way, we're talking about, 548 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 2: you know, public perception and making a difference. We need 549 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,560 Speaker 2: the majority of people to care. The majority of people 550 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 2: don't even click on an academic paper. They don't open it, 551 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 2: they don't read the abstract, they just don't you know. 552 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 2: They're on TikTok, they're on Twitter, whatever. And I think 553 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 2: there's obviously room in this world for both. But some 554 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 2: of those phenomenal finds on some of these lost species, 555 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 2: new species, redefined species whatever, they should be on TikTok. 556 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:11,000 Speaker 2: And I hate TikTok by the way, Like I think 557 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 2: it's just an awful medium, But it should be, you know, 558 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 2: because you should get five million kids to watch it 559 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 2: and go, oh my god, that's so cool, and they're 560 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 2: not so anyway, it's a very long winded way of 561 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:22,960 Speaker 2: answering your question. But I don't think it's about the 562 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,480 Speaker 2: species and the charismaticness. I think it's about the way 563 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:29,680 Speaker 2: the information is presented on these animals, because every animal's cool. 564 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 2: You can make an earthworm tremendously cool. If you learn 565 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 2: about earthworms and how neat they are and what they do, 566 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:37,360 Speaker 2: they're incredibly cool. Every animal is cool. It's just about 567 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 2: the way the information is shared. 568 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean I think that I get 569 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,960 Speaker 1: a lot of really strong reactions to animals on this 570 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 1: show that I mean, I really love and are maybe 571 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 1: gross and small and seemingly not very charismatic, but then 572 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:58,760 Speaker 1: when once people hear about them, and here why you 573 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:00,840 Speaker 1: know I love them and why I think they're like 574 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 1: something little like the velvet warm, And if you look 575 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,960 Speaker 1: at like an actual picture of it, like up close, 576 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 1: and you describe all these amazing characteristics of it, then 577 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 1: other people really love it, Like I think that it's 578 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 1: it is like, it is not hard to convince people 579 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 1: to love these animals as long as the information is 580 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 1: really clearly communicated. I think with with academic papers, I 581 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 1: think that one of the main barriers is is that 582 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 1: they are very They can be very difficult to read 583 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 1: unless you have specific training in that area, like like 584 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 1: or if you you you sometimes even need to completely 585 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 1: understand like statistical analysis to understand an academic paper, which 586 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,719 Speaker 1: is just it's not that's not easy for people to do. 587 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 1: You can't just like you know, you know, like read 588 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 1: the Wikipedia on statistical analysis or how to interpret the 589 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 1: scientific paper and then be able to do it. It's 590 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:05,240 Speaker 1: it's genuinely difficult sometimes to understand these papers. And then 591 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:09,640 Speaker 1: there's also the problem of like converting a scientific paper 592 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,920 Speaker 1: into like a news article, and sometimes there's a disconnect 593 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:15,520 Speaker 1: between the paper and the article, and not just in 594 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 1: terms of like the proper information. The article may be 595 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 1: completely accurate, but then like missing some of the key 596 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:26,719 Speaker 1: things in the scientific paper that are so interesting and 597 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 1: fascinating that just kind of get glossed over because it's 598 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 1: it's there's just like a little bit of a disconnect. 599 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 1: Like I'll read a news article and then read the 600 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:37,880 Speaker 1: paper it was based on it. It's like they've missed 601 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,840 Speaker 1: some of the most exciting things that the study has 602 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 1: talked about, or something that's really funny or interesting, just 603 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:47,720 Speaker 1: like like the kind of like reading like the methodology 604 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:51,440 Speaker 1: of like some of these these research papers about insects 605 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 1: or or chimpanzees or whatever, and then you find something 606 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 1: really funny about the study design and it really humanizes 607 00:32:57,320 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 1: it of like, hey, this is what they had to 608 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 1: do to like understand this animal. Like I just read 609 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:10,080 Speaker 1: a paper on chimpanzee facial well not facial recognition, rear 610 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,719 Speaker 1: end recognition, and they had to like in the study, 611 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 1: like the idea is that the primates will often like 612 00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 1: be able to do the same kind of facial recognition 613 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 1: we do with faces on rear ends, and so they 614 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 1: had to al curate this collection of primate rear ends 615 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 1: and then also like human rear ends and faces and 616 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 1: then show them to primates and humans. And it's just 617 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 1: such a funny. I think it's a funny study. And 618 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 1: you know, I thought the news articles were pretty good 619 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:40,720 Speaker 1: of the study, but they were like like when you 620 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 1: really get into some of the details of the methodology, 621 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 1: which sounds like something boring, like, oh, people aren't going 622 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 1: to be interested in the methodology, But then when you 623 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 1: really get into it, I think people would find it 624 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 1: really funny and really fun and then of course it's 625 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 1: also really important research. And so I think breaking down 626 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:02,600 Speaker 1: this idea of like what people would actually find boring 627 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:07,080 Speaker 1: or not, Like, don't I don't think that science is 628 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:11,960 Speaker 1: boring at all. I think that when people feel like 629 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:14,319 Speaker 1: pushed out of it, like, well, this isn't for me. 630 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:16,799 Speaker 1: I'm not going to be able to understand this. It's 631 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:19,520 Speaker 1: going to be beyond me. That's when it's not interesting 632 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:21,759 Speaker 1: is when it's not accessible. But once you've made it 633 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,719 Speaker 1: accessible and say like like this is actually straightforward and 634 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:28,239 Speaker 1: you are perfectly capable of understanding this, I just have 635 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:30,520 Speaker 1: to be good at communicating it to you, that's when 636 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:32,239 Speaker 1: people will be interested in it. 637 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 2: There's multiple problems, and if the network ever hears this, 638 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:37,799 Speaker 2: they'll call and be yell at me, which is fine, 639 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:41,080 Speaker 2: but you know what, the first part is the elitism 640 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:44,360 Speaker 2: behind academia, which is sort of what you just just 641 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:46,400 Speaker 2: touched on, and the sort of the snobbery in the 642 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:48,160 Speaker 2: way that a lot of things are written. The second 643 00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 2: part is and there's so many more problems in this, 644 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:53,839 Speaker 2: but in my opinion, another big part of it in 645 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:58,279 Speaker 2: that messaging as far as digestibility, is everybody catering to 646 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,319 Speaker 2: the lowest common denominator, and I think there's a really 647 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 2: that's why I say the network will get mad. The 648 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 2: reason Animal Planet's no longer right, It's like they kept 649 00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 2: chasing like a lower and lower view and I personally 650 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 2: experience that because they come to me and be like, Oh, 651 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:14,120 Speaker 2: this isn't exciting enough, this isn't interesting enough. People don't 652 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 2: care about this, people don't care about that, and I 653 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:18,400 Speaker 2: just don't agree, you know. I'm like, I don't agree, 654 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,120 Speaker 2: and here's why. And I think I'm living proof of 655 00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:25,520 Speaker 2: that because I've managed to create thriving media channels outside 656 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,640 Speaker 2: of Animal Planet where I communicate things that I think 657 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,440 Speaker 2: are fascinating and people do as well. And that's the 658 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:33,360 Speaker 2: nice thing about the day and age of the Internet is, 659 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:35,080 Speaker 2: you know, you can jump on YouTube for free and 660 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:37,120 Speaker 2: get to learn and see about a lot of these things, 661 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:41,160 Speaker 2: versus sit through a TV show on you know, hunting 662 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:44,759 Speaker 2: for Bigfoots, which is all just nonsense anyway, you know, 663 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:47,760 Speaker 2: because that's the kind of thing that they think people 664 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:51,400 Speaker 2: want to watch as opposed to like genuinely communicating interesting stuff. 665 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:53,839 Speaker 2: So anyway, that's a whole nother podcast. We can talk 666 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:57,440 Speaker 2: about for hours as to as to how that information 667 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:03,120 Speaker 2: is shared and why Chase not. I don't want to 668 00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:07,319 Speaker 2: get myself in trouble, but why sharing information that you 669 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,239 Speaker 2: think is best for everybody because you're catering to the 670 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 2: lowest common denominator is not it's insulting to the viewer. 671 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I mean I agree. I think that the 672 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,600 Speaker 1: it's kind of a snowball effect too, because it's like, well, 673 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,040 Speaker 1: this is all we show, this is the only kind 674 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:27,000 Speaker 1: of content that we have, and this is all that 675 00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:30,479 Speaker 1: people watch, and therefore this is what people like to watch. 676 00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:34,000 Speaker 1: It's like, well, but if you have different types of 677 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:39,319 Speaker 1: shows on your channel that are more you know. I mean, 678 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:41,840 Speaker 1: it's kind it's like sort of the same issue in 679 00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,839 Speaker 1: the film industry, right where it's like it like, well, 680 00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:47,680 Speaker 1: people only want to watch Marvel movies. It's like, well, 681 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:50,800 Speaker 1: but you're only serving them Marvel movies to a certain extent, 682 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:55,080 Speaker 1: and like like other movies that everybody's yeah yeah, and 683 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:57,960 Speaker 1: like movies that aren't Marvel movies are Marvel movies because 684 00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:01,040 Speaker 1: they're copying the Marvel movie format. I'm not saying I 685 00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:03,600 Speaker 1: don't have a problem with Marvel movies. I think they're fun, 686 00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:06,360 Speaker 1: but like, you know, the idea that like, well, people 687 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,520 Speaker 1: don't want this because all we're doing is serving this. 688 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:12,000 Speaker 1: It's like, well, but you're only giving them this, so 689 00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:13,759 Speaker 1: how do you know that they don't want it? And 690 00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:16,040 Speaker 1: then when when they go outside of that format, like 691 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:19,359 Speaker 1: you know, like the Barbie Movie, it's like people really 692 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,520 Speaker 1: loved it and and so you know, I think basically 693 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 1: I'm saying that, you know, weird animals, weird, uncharismatic, ugly 694 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:32,720 Speaker 1: animals are the Barbie Movie of the animal world. People 695 00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:40,160 Speaker 1: will love them. One thing I wanted to talk about 696 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:43,000 Speaker 1: is it's a topic that I've brought up a few 697 00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:47,640 Speaker 1: times before because I find it really interesting and it's 698 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:53,279 Speaker 1: a de extinction and it's something that can be It's 699 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:57,879 Speaker 1: it's a very controversial topic because it's something where it's 700 00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,680 Speaker 1: that it's I mean, maybe you probably understand it better 701 00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:04,400 Speaker 1: than I do, so I'll just ask you, like, what 702 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:08,799 Speaker 1: exactly is the extinction? Like what is the concept behind it? 703 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:11,320 Speaker 1: Is it some kind of like far off science fiction 704 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:13,239 Speaker 1: thing or is it something we can actually do. 705 00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:17,920 Speaker 2: It's certainly something we can do. I mean, Colossal Biosciences 706 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:21,279 Speaker 2: is you know, it's actively doing it, and it's it's 707 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,320 Speaker 2: a company that's valued to billions of dollars now because 708 00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:27,520 Speaker 2: of the work they're doing in it, and it's it's happening. 709 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:29,200 Speaker 2: You know. I don't want to I don't want to 710 00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:31,879 Speaker 2: give anything away, but I'd say everybody should stay very 711 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:33,799 Speaker 2: closely tuned at the end of this year for a 712 00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:37,719 Speaker 2: very large announcement. And yeah, I certainly can't say more 713 00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:41,440 Speaker 2: than that. But you know, look, what is the extinction 714 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:44,440 Speaker 2: it's bringing back? I mean, the extinct is exactly what 715 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:46,320 Speaker 2: it sounds like. It's bringing back extinct animals. You know, 716 00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,719 Speaker 2: this is not Jurassic Park. This is bringing back animals 717 00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:53,320 Speaker 2: that humans have had a hand in driving to extinction. 718 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:57,000 Speaker 2: And by bringing back those animals and putting them back 719 00:38:57,040 --> 00:39:00,920 Speaker 2: into ecosystems, it's repairing ecosystems. And you know, a good 720 00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:03,120 Speaker 2: example I try and give to people is because a 721 00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:05,600 Speaker 2: lot of a lot of the criticism that you read 722 00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:08,480 Speaker 2: about the extinction is people being like the ecosystem is healthy, 723 00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:11,000 Speaker 2: it's fine, like we don't need these animals back, which 724 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:14,759 Speaker 2: it's clownish. It's the same as you know, imagine if 725 00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:17,040 Speaker 2: you're an alien you land on Earth and you go 726 00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:20,279 Speaker 2: and find a population of people and they all have jaundice. Well, 727 00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:22,640 Speaker 2: then you go, well, people are yellow, right, that's what 728 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:25,160 Speaker 2: people look like. Human beings are yellow. They're they're fine, 729 00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:26,960 Speaker 2: They're just yellow over there, and they die at a 730 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:27,479 Speaker 2: young age. 731 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,640 Speaker 1: Hey, man, The Simpsons was a good show, all right. 732 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:34,919 Speaker 2: But you know that's wrong, Like people shouldn't be yellow 733 00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:36,480 Speaker 2: and they shouldn't die at a young age. And that's 734 00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:38,279 Speaker 2: how we look at a lot of these ecosystems. The 735 00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:41,640 Speaker 2: arctics a perfect example, like it's not healthy, you know, 736 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:45,160 Speaker 2: it's it's relatively healthy, like it's getting by, but it 737 00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:47,440 Speaker 2: would be a lot more healthy if we put mammos 738 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:50,719 Speaker 2: back into a part of the tundra. You know, Tasmania 739 00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:54,080 Speaker 2: would be a far, far more thriving ecosystem if it 740 00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:56,680 Speaker 2: had an apex predator back like the Thylocene. And the 741 00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:58,719 Speaker 2: list goes on and on and on. And that's what 742 00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:01,080 Speaker 2: the extinction, at least with the companies that I work 743 00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:04,840 Speaker 2: with Colossal, specifically aimed to do. They aim to repair 744 00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:09,440 Speaker 2: the ecosystem through this radical conservation method, which is the extinction, 745 00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:12,600 Speaker 2: which is genetic work to bring back animals that human 746 00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:15,160 Speaker 2: beings have actively had a hand in eradicating. And it's 747 00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:20,759 Speaker 2: a very exciting, very important, somewhat scary proposition that we 748 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:23,520 Speaker 2: should all be excited and interested in, because this is 749 00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:27,520 Speaker 2: not putting frickin' mongeese in Hawaii. You know, this is 750 00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:35,080 Speaker 2: a much much more noble cause and a much it 751 00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:37,759 Speaker 2: may be. I'll be candid here and without trying to 752 00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:40,160 Speaker 2: offend your listeners or anybody else, it may be the 753 00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:42,680 Speaker 2: first thing that human beings have done right in conservation 754 00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:46,319 Speaker 2: in a very long time. Because there are lots of 755 00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:49,600 Speaker 2: triumph stories of conservation, there really are, but they're very, 756 00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:53,360 Speaker 2: very small, and on a whole, we're losing a conservation. 757 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:55,799 Speaker 2: Conservation has only been around for one hundred years, and 758 00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:58,200 Speaker 2: we lose more and more species, more and more habitat 759 00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:01,239 Speaker 2: and everything else every single year. This the extinction could 760 00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:04,520 Speaker 2: be this radical effort that actually turns the table where 761 00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:06,239 Speaker 2: we start winning the war of conservation. 762 00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:12,279 Speaker 1: It's it's a very interesting concept because it's i mean, like, 763 00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:14,520 Speaker 1: like you kind of mentioned earlier, I think when people, 764 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:18,560 Speaker 1: well maybe not everyone, but you know, the extinction has 765 00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:22,000 Speaker 1: this kind of like, oh, we're doing a Jurassic Park 766 00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:25,040 Speaker 1: thing where like we're playing god, we're doing something we're 767 00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:28,080 Speaker 1: not supposed to be doing. But it's you know, I mean, 768 00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:30,280 Speaker 1: it's very different from can. 769 00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:32,080 Speaker 2: I touch that quick? Yes, I don't mean interrupt you, 770 00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:35,279 Speaker 2: but no, that's sort of it's sort of grinds my 771 00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:37,359 Speaker 2: gears a little when I hear that we're playing God. 772 00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:41,600 Speaker 2: We're playing God every single time we wipe out a species. 773 00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:43,960 Speaker 2: We're playing God every single time we create a medicine, 774 00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:46,080 Speaker 2: We're playing God every time we get a step foot 775 00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:49,400 Speaker 2: in a car. Because none of these are natural processes. Okay, 776 00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:52,960 Speaker 2: the extinction, all the extinction is trying to do at 777 00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,160 Speaker 2: this point in time. This could certainly change, we could 778 00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:57,640 Speaker 2: have some mad scientist movie crap happen. But at this 779 00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:00,040 Speaker 2: point in time, all the extinction is trying to do 780 00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:02,520 Speaker 2: is repair things that we've broken. I don't think that's 781 00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:05,399 Speaker 2: playing God. I think that's fixing things. And we've we've 782 00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:08,080 Speaker 2: done so much to destroy it. We've played so much 783 00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:11,520 Speaker 2: God already with ecosystems and environments by dumping species and 784 00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:15,280 Speaker 2: changing them and manipulating them that it's like the argument 785 00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:17,560 Speaker 2: of the playing God thing to me is I mean, 786 00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:19,240 Speaker 2: it's it's a laughable argument. 787 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:22,279 Speaker 1: I mean, it's interesting because even in those movies, I 788 00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:24,359 Speaker 1: don't think the problem was that they were playing God. 789 00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:26,800 Speaker 1: I think the problem was that they let children loose 790 00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:30,280 Speaker 1: with an apex predator on an island. 791 00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:32,160 Speaker 2: But right, but no one's doing that. 792 00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:37,320 Speaker 1: You know what we're not We're not letting children loose 793 00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:41,320 Speaker 1: with passenger pigeons that we've cloned. 794 00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:44,760 Speaker 2: Exactly, I mean exactly exactly. 795 00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:50,480 Speaker 1: I think it is like I think that the the concern. 796 00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:54,080 Speaker 1: I understand the concern about it because it's like often 797 00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:59,279 Speaker 1: when we've tried to interfere with nature, it has gone 798 00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:03,080 Speaker 1: wrong because we didn't understand what we were doing, like 799 00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:06,200 Speaker 1: when we like the cane toad situation. Anytime, like we 800 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:09,080 Speaker 1: introduce a species because we want it to do a 801 00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:11,960 Speaker 1: certain thing. Now, in this case, of course, with a 802 00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:14,440 Speaker 1: lot of these the introductions, like the cane toad, it 803 00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:17,080 Speaker 1: was not because we were trying to protect the environment. 804 00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:21,239 Speaker 1: It was because we were trying to protect crops, so 805 00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:23,759 Speaker 1: we're trying to protect profit. It was not it was 806 00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:26,640 Speaker 1: not an attempt to like be good to the environment. 807 00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:30,279 Speaker 1: And then of course that one's spectacularly bad and it's 808 00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:38,080 Speaker 1: still bad today. The cane toad population is still a problem. Ever, Yeah, 809 00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:40,960 Speaker 1: and so's it's something where I think that we have 810 00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:45,440 Speaker 1: this you know, well earned skittishness about like, well, but 811 00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:47,759 Speaker 1: if we do this, it could cause problems. And I 812 00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:49,719 Speaker 1: mean I think more or less it's true, like if 813 00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:54,319 Speaker 1: we any conservation we do, it could like there could 814 00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:58,640 Speaker 1: be unintended consequences, but like you said, we're doing things 815 00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:03,160 Speaker 1: all the time that have unintended consequences that are really bad, 816 00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:08,080 Speaker 1: and those things aren't even directed towards trying to you know, 817 00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:12,600 Speaker 1: undo these things. But like, what would so because it's 818 00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:16,800 Speaker 1: interesting to me, one of the arguments is like, well, 819 00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:20,160 Speaker 1: it's kind of too late for a lot of these species, 820 00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:24,520 Speaker 1: Like we certainly could bring them back. But then you 821 00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:28,160 Speaker 1: know these say, like the forests in the US that 822 00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:33,160 Speaker 1: were like the native habitat for say passenger pigeons, well 823 00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:37,560 Speaker 1: they buy and large no longer exists. So what would 824 00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:40,840 Speaker 1: these passenger pigeons do, like they would you know, could 825 00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:45,160 Speaker 1: they really bring back these habitats or is it too late? 826 00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:47,640 Speaker 1: And then would we just have sort of a bunch 827 00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:51,280 Speaker 1: of passenger pigeons then trying to become urban adapters because 828 00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:54,600 Speaker 1: they don't have any of their natural environment. Like do 829 00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:56,959 Speaker 1: you think that do you think it's not too late 830 00:44:57,000 --> 00:44:59,520 Speaker 1: for a lot of these species to bring back these 831 00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:02,160 Speaker 1: habitats or do you think sometimes it truly is just 832 00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:02,919 Speaker 1: kind of too late. 833 00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:06,120 Speaker 2: I mean, there's no blanket answer. That's the part of 834 00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:08,000 Speaker 2: the thing about conservation. It's part of The thing about 835 00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:10,120 Speaker 2: the extinction, It's part of the thing about anything dealing 836 00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:13,000 Speaker 2: with wildlife is it's on a case by case basis. 837 00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:16,440 Speaker 2: With the case of the passenger pigeon, I certainly not 838 00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:19,720 Speaker 2: too late. I mean there are decent size, not large, 839 00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:22,920 Speaker 2: swaths of forests that are still protected and in national forests, 840 00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:25,680 Speaker 2: national parks and things. So would you have the billions 841 00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:27,840 Speaker 2: of passenger pigeons that were said to black out the 842 00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:30,560 Speaker 2: sky in the early eighteen hundreds, No, well, that that 843 00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:34,000 Speaker 2: will not be a possibility. Again, could you have large 844 00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:38,960 Speaker 2: flocks that live, you know, generally within protected national forests? Absolutely, 845 00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:40,719 Speaker 2: and they should be there. You know, we we're the 846 00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:44,759 Speaker 2: ones who hunted them to extinction. Some animals. I think 847 00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:46,880 Speaker 2: it is too late for I'm I'm blanking on a 848 00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:49,200 Speaker 2: specific example at this point. But you know, if you 849 00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:52,880 Speaker 2: if you can think of a creature that, well, like 850 00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:57,279 Speaker 2: to be vague and generic here dinosaurs. Too late for dinosaurs, right, 851 00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:00,680 Speaker 2: their habitats change, the planets change. Nobody to bring back 852 00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:02,640 Speaker 2: a t rex. You know, it's a great movie premise, 853 00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:05,839 Speaker 2: it's not a great conservation premise. It also is impossible. 854 00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:09,120 Speaker 2: We cannot code for DNA. That's fragmented six million years ago, 855 00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:12,759 Speaker 2: you know, it's just not a thing. But in the 856 00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:15,480 Speaker 2: case of a passenger pigeon where we shot it to extinction, 857 00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:17,719 Speaker 2: a great auc where we've plucked them out of the 858 00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:20,720 Speaker 2: off off of the planet for feathers and oil, a mammoth, 859 00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:22,880 Speaker 2: a thylacine. The list goes on and on and on. Yeah, 860 00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:25,000 Speaker 2: we should bring them back. We should repair what we've done. 861 00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:27,680 Speaker 2: The dodos. We wiped out the dodos for fun, because 862 00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:29,759 Speaker 2: we'd like bopped them on the head. Popping them on 863 00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:32,080 Speaker 2: the head. They weren't even good to eat, you know, 864 00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:34,640 Speaker 2: and that's been shown time and time again. Like, of 865 00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:37,160 Speaker 2: course doodos should come back. We should feel very guilty 866 00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:39,759 Speaker 2: as a species that we ever did that, you know, 867 00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:42,520 Speaker 2: and not pretend we didn't do it and hide from it, 868 00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:44,319 Speaker 2: but learn from it and try not to do it 869 00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:45,120 Speaker 2: again in the future. 870 00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:48,480 Speaker 1: The other the other thing I think is interesting is 871 00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:54,040 Speaker 1: the process of the extinction, which is there are like 872 00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:57,160 Speaker 1: it's very difficult, say you wanted to bring back the 873 00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:00,279 Speaker 1: Dodo to just like clone a Dodo from some kind 874 00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:04,800 Speaker 1: of specimen. It's not necessarily as straightforward as like taking 875 00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:08,360 Speaker 1: some DNA creating like a perfect clone, Like sometimes the 876 00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:13,080 Speaker 1: extinction involves like taking like for maybe the passenger pigeon 877 00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:17,200 Speaker 1: would involve taking a currently a live species and then 878 00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:20,840 Speaker 1: either modifying its DNA or using it as a surrogate 879 00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:27,919 Speaker 1: for the the passenger pigeon clone DNA. And so there 880 00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:32,880 Speaker 1: would be some these aren't gonna necessarily be perfect replicas 881 00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:35,600 Speaker 1: of the animals they once were, Like even if they're 882 00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:40,040 Speaker 1: perfect genetic replicas, they would you know, some element of 883 00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:45,320 Speaker 1: an animal species, of course, is instinctive, but there's also 884 00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:47,759 Speaker 1: some learning, like with birds, like there's a lot of 885 00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:52,800 Speaker 1: capacity to learn. Passenger pigeons aren't songbirds, but they're social birds. 886 00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:56,080 Speaker 1: So like, if we bring these back, they're not going 887 00:47:56,120 --> 00:48:00,799 Speaker 1: to come prepackaged with everything that the animal once was, 888 00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:05,719 Speaker 1: especially for an intelligent species like a mammoth. I mean, 889 00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:10,960 Speaker 1: so much of elephant behavior is learned. They're highly intelligent, 890 00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:15,920 Speaker 1: highly sort of like social animals that learn generationally. So 891 00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:19,719 Speaker 1: how I don't necessarily think this means like it's a 892 00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:22,680 Speaker 1: lost cause, but like how it seems like that is 893 00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:26,200 Speaker 1: a huge challenge to like, if we bring back something 894 00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:28,719 Speaker 1: like a dodo or a mammoth, like, how would we 895 00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:32,919 Speaker 1: try to create a situation such that even if it's 896 00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:36,360 Speaker 1: not a perfect replica of what this animal was, it 897 00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:41,080 Speaker 1: at least has a chance and to like start to 898 00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:44,600 Speaker 1: reintroduce it in a way where it's being given sort 899 00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:47,400 Speaker 1: of some of what would be missing, like that that 900 00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:51,279 Speaker 1: social learning with because like you can't there's no existing 901 00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:54,400 Speaker 1: kind of mammoth groups to put like a cloned baby 902 00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:56,200 Speaker 1: mammoth with to know what to do. 903 00:48:56,360 --> 00:49:00,239 Speaker 2: Well, yes and no, I mean you know, the an 904 00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:05,000 Speaker 2: elephant is ninety nine point six percent related to the 905 00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:07,839 Speaker 2: wooly mammoth. Right, so if you may, if you make 906 00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:09,840 Speaker 2: a replica of you, Katie, and it comes out as me, 907 00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:12,520 Speaker 2: it's also not a perfect replica, right, but I can 908 00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:14,600 Speaker 2: still learn from you. You can still be my mother 909 00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:16,799 Speaker 2: or my mentor my teacher, whatever you want to call it. 910 00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:19,040 Speaker 2: And uh, you know, I'm not a replica of you, 911 00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:21,040 Speaker 2: but I'm also a human being, right, You're a human. 912 00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:23,719 Speaker 2: I'm a human. And that's that's sort of the foundation 913 00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:26,239 Speaker 2: of this. Right. If you bring back a mammoth, uh, 914 00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:29,120 Speaker 2: it's it's it's just a big hairy elephant, and as 915 00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:31,560 Speaker 2: long as it learns how to be an elephant, it 916 00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:34,080 Speaker 2: can be a big hairy elephant up in the Arctic, right, 917 00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:36,600 Speaker 2: And that's that's the simplified way of looking at it. 918 00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:38,759 Speaker 2: And the same thing can be said about Dodo, Thilocene, 919 00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:42,839 Speaker 2: anything else. It's you know, instinct will always be there. 920 00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:46,840 Speaker 2: Nature will drive it over nurture. But of course nurture 921 00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:50,040 Speaker 2: will be a factor. And in a lot of these cases, 922 00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:52,239 Speaker 2: if you're putting a thilacene back in Tasmania, if you're 923 00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:54,400 Speaker 2: putting a mammoth up in the Arctic, it's going to 924 00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:57,759 Speaker 2: have a very easy time because the ecosystem has been 925 00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:02,120 Speaker 2: without that gone force, that keystone species for such a 926 00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:06,239 Speaker 2: long time that the animal basically has this giant playground 927 00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:08,960 Speaker 2: to learn how to be an animal again, including and 928 00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:13,040 Speaker 2: that is the nurture factor from both human beings, conservationist 929 00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:15,839 Speaker 2: people like myself who are on the conservation advisory board 930 00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:18,279 Speaker 2: of a lot of these species, as well as you 931 00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:19,080 Speaker 2: know the targets. 932 00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:23,919 Speaker 1: Well, I I think that's very that makes me feel 933 00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:27,200 Speaker 1: very hopeful. I would love, uh, I would love to 934 00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:29,919 Speaker 1: live in a world that is able to bring back 935 00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:30,800 Speaker 1: some of these species. 936 00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:35,479 Speaker 2: Well what I'm very confident we will be, So stay 937 00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:37,719 Speaker 2: tuned because I think, you know, in the next few 938 00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:39,640 Speaker 2: years it's all going to be happening. 939 00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:43,200 Speaker 1: Well if I will keep my eyeballs peeled for that 940 00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:46,720 Speaker 1: news Forrest, thank you so much for joining me today. 941 00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:48,719 Speaker 1: Where can people find you? 942 00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:53,000 Speaker 2: Uh? You know, my favorite thing. I have all the 943 00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:56,919 Speaker 2: social channels, you know, all the regulars and my new thing, 944 00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:59,160 Speaker 2: My new favorite thing is this this YouTube thing that 945 00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:01,839 Speaker 2: I mentioned. We just launched it. It's pretty exciting. There's 946 00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:04,360 Speaker 2: a whole lot of fun content on there. Extinct animals, 947 00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:09,120 Speaker 2: rare speech, sheees, finding new stuff, invasive species and it's 948 00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:11,840 Speaker 2: just my name for us blante on YouTube. And you know, 949 00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:13,879 Speaker 2: I think that's where people could check it out because 950 00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:17,880 Speaker 2: I'm directing a lot of the stuff we're doing onto 951 00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:19,560 Speaker 2: there now so that people can enjoy it. 952 00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:23,680 Speaker 1: That's excellent. Yes, I will never say no to more 953 00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:28,399 Speaker 1: animal content. Thank you guys. Thank you guys so much 954 00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:32,880 Speaker 1: for listening. If you're enjoying the show, please leave a 955 00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:36,840 Speaker 1: rating a review. That absolutely helps. I read all the reviews, 956 00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:40,320 Speaker 1: I print them all out, I put them in, bind 957 00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:42,480 Speaker 1: them into a book, and then I read it as 958 00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:46,560 Speaker 1: a bedtime story every night. And thanks to the Space 959 00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:50,680 Speaker 1: Classics for their super awesome song XO. Lumina. Creature features 960 00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:53,759 Speaker 1: a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts like the one 961 00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:56,319 Speaker 1: you just heard, visit the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts, or 962 00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:56,839 Speaker 1: Hey guess what? 963 00:51:57,480 --> 00:51:57,680 Speaker 2: Where? 964 00:51:57,680 --> 00:51:59,759 Speaker 1: Have you listen to your favorite shows? I'm not sure. 965 00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:04,320 Speaker 1: See you next Wednesday,