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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: In the last hours, murder mom Susan Smith cries sobs,

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Speaker 2: breaks down in front of a parole board, begging to

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Speaker 2: be released. She says she has quote improved during her

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Speaker 2: years behind bars. I wonder if that could be said

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Speaker 2: of her two little boys, Michael and Alex. She drove

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Speaker 2: her car into a South Carolina lake and then blamed

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Speaker 2: an unknown black mail for hijacking her car. What a

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Speaker 2: load of bs technical legal term. Well, thankfully this time

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Speaker 2: at least the parole board got it right and saw

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Speaker 2: through her crocodile tears. That's right, Susan Smith, parole denied. Hello,

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Speaker 2: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for

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Speaker 2: being with us. What exactly happened? What led us to

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Speaker 2: this day, this moment, these crocodile tears and this parole

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Speaker 2: board hearing? See if this jogs your memory, listen.

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Speaker 3: Layol love and here's a lady. You come on dot

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Speaker 3: Dollar and some guy jumping into a red light with

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Speaker 3: her car with her two kids in it, and he

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Speaker 3: took off and he got out of call here at Ohio. Yes, Layol,

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Speaker 3: let her call and I don't rhy, I need to

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Speaker 3: go along. Get'm down here and a car. But we

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Speaker 3: need to add a magna protege.

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Speaker 4: What color was it?

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Speaker 3: A burgundy magna protege? We're going to don't get him.

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Speaker 5: Going pay him? They got two.

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Speaker 2: I love that degree of detail. You know. I don't

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Speaker 2: even know where to go first because they got such

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Speaker 2: awesome experts. But I'm going to go first with Chris mcdonna.

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Speaker 2: He is the director of Cold Case Foundation. Okay, don't care,

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Speaker 2: former homicide is of starting to care, getting warm, getting warm,

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Speaker 2: getting hotter. He has his own YouTube channel, the Interview

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Speaker 2: Room where I found him. You can find him at

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Speaker 2: Colcays Foundation dot org or on the Interview Room Former

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Speaker 2: homicide detective three hundred ish homicide scenes under his belt.

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Speaker 2: Chris McDonough, don't you love the degree of detail? Hey?

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Speaker 2: You know what send me? Sometimes you got to hear

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Speaker 2: the best stuff? Can you play that one more time? Listen?

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Speaker 3: Lay love and that is a lady You come on

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Speaker 3: dot dollar and he's some guy Dan into a red

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Speaker 3: light with her car with her two kids in it,

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Speaker 3: and he took he got out of call.

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Speaker 5: Here at Ohio.

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Speaker 3: Lay let her call it. I don't I need to

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Speaker 3: go along, get down here and a car.

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Speaker 5: But we need a.

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Speaker 2: Live body day.

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Speaker 4: What color?

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Speaker 3: Was it a burgundy? Maga protege?

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Speaker 5: We don't get him going pay him?

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Speaker 2: I got tap, I'll go all the detail, Chris McDonough.

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Speaker 2: She's quote real hysterical and you need to call them

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Speaker 2: and get him down here right now. And you hear

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Speaker 2: her feeding details in the background, Nancy, wasn't.

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Speaker 6: That the narrative that captivated America?

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Speaker 2: How can you be so calm?

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Speaker 6: You know, we just get used to it, unfortunately, right

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Speaker 6: it's when.

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Speaker 2: Somebody still get very angry, very angry. And I know

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Speaker 2: the end of this story. But the detail. Have you

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Speaker 2: ever seen perps and they will spin you a yarn

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Speaker 2: with such incredibly rich detail.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, and typically that detail, if it's that minutia and

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Speaker 6: that amount, is typically a sign of deception. And she

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Speaker 6: kicked it off right.

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Speaker 2: From that nine one one call from the beginning, the beginning,

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Speaker 2: running up to somebody's house talking about some guy jumps

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Speaker 2: out and you know this occurs in rural Union County,

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Speaker 2: South Carolina, near the John D. Long Lake. And you know,

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Speaker 2: hold on, Chris mcdona, where do you live, Chris?

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Speaker 6: Well, right now, I'm in Arizona. But I lived in

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Speaker 6: South Carolina right there.

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Speaker 2: In Mount Plus, you're very familiar with this area. Let

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Speaker 2: me go to another country boy like this country girl

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Speaker 2: right here, just got Morgan joining me, although he's gotten

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Speaker 2: pretty high falutin. Professor Forensis Jacksonville State University, author of

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Speaker 2: Blood Beneath My Feet, still waiting on another book to

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Speaker 2: come out. Host of Bodybag's hit podcast this area, Chris

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Speaker 2: McDonagh has lived in South Carolina. I've gone to this

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Speaker 2: scene before. It's extremely rural, and I'm supposed to believe

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Speaker 2: a guy jumps out of what from behind a stop

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Speaker 2: sign and hijacks her car and takes off with the

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Speaker 2: children clearly in the back seat, two little boys.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, what are the odds that you're going to have

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Speaker 7: somebody that wants to do this kind of harm, whether

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Speaker 7: or not they had an awareness that, you know, these

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Speaker 7: poor little angels were buckled down in those back seats.

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Speaker 7: The fact that you would have this kind of aggressive

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Speaker 7: behavior in that location where she was specifically targeted as

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Speaker 7: an investigator, I'm certainly going to raise an eyebrow and

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Speaker 7: I'm going to take a long look at what she

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Speaker 7: has to say, because, as you and I both know, Nancy,

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Speaker 7: the line share, the line share of home sides that

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Speaker 7: we talked about have some kind of familial connection. That

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Speaker 7: means that you're around intimates those individuals that are most important.

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Speaker 7: So you're going to tell me that a random stranger

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Speaker 7: just came up and kidnapped these babies and run off

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Speaker 7: with them and left her standing on the side of

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Speaker 7: the road weeping.

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Speaker 2: Now, did you hear what he just did? Chris mcdona,

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Speaker 2: I am going along with every he says, but he's

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Speaker 2: a wily one. You got to really watching watch what

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Speaker 2: Joe Scott says. I agree with the whole rural aspect,

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Speaker 2: but did you hear him say if the unknown male

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Speaker 2: assailant noticed the children in the back seat. I'm looking

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Speaker 2: right now at a ninety four Mazda Protege. You can

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Speaker 2: see straight into the back seat from every angle of

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Speaker 2: the car. It's not like you know, you see those

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Speaker 2: black su these with tended windows, you can't see what's

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Speaker 2: going on in there. No, you can see exactly what's

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Speaker 2: going on in the back seat. And I'm looking at

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Speaker 2: a shot from the distance, I can see through the

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Speaker 2: back window, through the back dash, and through the other

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Speaker 2: side of the car. Whoever took the car could definitely

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Speaker 2: see that children were strapped into car seats in the

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Speaker 2: back seat. I mean, okay, you know what, Let's take

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Speaker 2: a listen to the nine one one call.

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Speaker 5: Listen Union one of us, one of five gohead. She

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Speaker 5: said it with a black male driving aigh born and

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Speaker 5: protege Affirman did.

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Speaker 8: One of fine.

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Speaker 5: They had two junloed one fine for one understood these

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Speaker 5: were small children. These are her children. And she jumped

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Speaker 5: out of the car and he took the car with

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Speaker 5: the children and he's headed toy Chest one hundred. The victors,

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Speaker 5: both quicktors cola family from when I gathered by the call,

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Speaker 5: they are not This is a stranger that had jumped

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Speaker 5: in the lady's car at a red light and she

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Speaker 5: jumped out.

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Speaker 2: I mean, really, Tara, and I'm leading up to what

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Speaker 2: Susan Smith is doing right now. And let me tell

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Speaker 2: you it involves six different men. That said Tara Malick

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Speaker 2: joining me out of Boise, Idaho co owner Smith and Malik,

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Speaker 2: former state and federal prosecutor. Tara once again blame the

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Speaker 2: black man. I remember when this happened. I was trying

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Speaker 2: a case and I looked over at my friend, my colleague,

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Speaker 2: who went on to be a judge, I might add,

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Speaker 2: and I went, Herman, have you seen the composite of

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Speaker 2: the guy that Susan Smith described? And he went, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I know what you're gonna say. Yeah, it looks just

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Speaker 2: like you. It looked just like Herman Sloan, my trial

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Speaker 2: partner who had come into court to bail me out

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Speaker 2: of some sling. I got in with the judge with

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Speaker 2: some appellate law, trying to suggest that I was right

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Speaker 2: and whatever I did. But he went, yeah, I've heard

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Speaker 2: I looked just like this Susan Smith purt and he did.

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Speaker 2: I mean, think about it, Tara, an innocent person could

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Speaker 2: have been arrested and probably tried and convicted based on

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Speaker 2: her fake composite and all of her lies. Like my Herman,

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Speaker 2: one of my best friends in the DA's office.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, I mean, the crime itself was atrocious and

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Speaker 4: horrific and terrible.

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Speaker 9: And then and then you know, to give this.

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Speaker 4: False profile of someone else who may have done it,

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Speaker 4: wasting resources, law enforcement resources, wasting everybody's time, but also,

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Speaker 4: like you said, putting somebody else potentially in jeopardy of

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Speaker 4: being picked up for it. And It's just mind boggling

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Speaker 4: that she would go.

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Speaker 2: Down this road. You know, I've dealt with a sod

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Speaker 2: defense many times. I namede that some other dude did it.

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Speaker 2: So d d here she goes some other dude did it,

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Speaker 2: and listen to her.

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Speaker 1: Listen.

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Speaker 10: I would like to say to whoever has my children

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Speaker 10: that they please they please bring them home.

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Speaker 2: To us where they belong.

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: After nearly thirty years behind bars, Susan Smith says she

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Speaker 2: should be released. In attendance. Much of it was by

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Speaker 2: remote her ex husband David Smith, along with prosecutors, all

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Speaker 2: wearing photos of the two little boys that were murdered

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Speaker 2: that day, her two sons, Michael and Alex, all of

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Speaker 2: them opposing parole. Do you remember her motive? Because I do.

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Speaker 2: She wanted to marry the rich guy in town's son

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Speaker 2: and he did not want a ready made family.

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Speaker 9: I e.

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Speaker 1: Her two boys, Michael and al so all done. She

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Speaker 1: killed them. Now let's get married.

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Speaker 2: You know, I will never forget when she gave that

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Speaker 2: tearful plea. Much like the tearful plea she gave the

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Speaker 2: last hours to the prole board for someone, some unknown

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Speaker 2: kidnapper to bring her boys home. Oh, she was so convincing,

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Speaker 2: just like she was in front of the pro board.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Bethany Marshall joining says she's a renounced psychoanalyst at

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Speaker 2: Doctorbethany Marshall dot com. As a matter of fact, she

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Speaker 2: now has a recurring role in Paris and Love season two.

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Speaker 2: That said, Doctor Bethany, I don't get it. We've got

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Speaker 2: men sexting and texting and writing and sending money and

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Speaker 2: love letters to Susan Smith when she is a bald

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Speaker 2: faced liar that kills her children in the worst way,

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Speaker 2: letting her car, her Burgundy Protege go down a ramp

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Speaker 2: with the two little boys alive, strapped in the back seat.

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Speaker 2: Why I don't get it. Why would men want to

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Speaker 2: be with this woman, send her money and sex text

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Speaker 2: with her? But did you hear her lie? Do you

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Speaker 2: remember when that happened? Crying in the snotting and the

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Speaker 2: all that happening. And I want to say, who ever

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Speaker 2: has my children, they please please bring them home to

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Speaker 2: us where they belong, knowing full well they drowned strapped

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Speaker 2: in their car seats.

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Speaker 9: Well show how immature she is at the most basic level,

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Speaker 9: that she wants okaya.

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Speaker 2: The most you can say, she's immature. She murdered two

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Speaker 2: little boys.

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Speaker 9: We know she's a social caup, But what beyond the

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Speaker 9: fact that she's a sociopath, what additional factors are there

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Speaker 9: that would lead to this? And one is an over

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Speaker 9: attachment to men. She loves that feeling of falling in love,

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Speaker 9: the feeling you have the first thing, are.

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Speaker 2: You linking this to double murder? Why this woman did

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Speaker 2: not get the death penalty, I do not know. And

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Speaker 2: now there's six guys trying to have sex with are

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Speaker 2: really ill.

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Speaker 9: Butally it's really a pathological attachment to men, like being in.

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Speaker 2: A barrel with with a rattlesnake.

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Speaker 1: Who was that?

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Speaker 9: Well, apparently they do. And you know, women who couldn't

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Speaker 9: f fantasize who killed their children often have some really

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Speaker 9: First of all, they were usually what we call cluster

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Speaker 9: be Then I.

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Speaker 2: Really have some sexy measure going on because I'm totally

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Speaker 2: cutting your mind.

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Speaker 9: Okay, So their cluster b which means they have three

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Speaker 9: different disorders sociopathy, bipolar, and borderline. Often they have a

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Speaker 9: very pathological attachment to men. Either they kill the children

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Speaker 9: to get back at the love object. Like I'm going

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Speaker 9: to kill our children because I'm mad at you. It's

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Speaker 9: hard to describe this without really sounding like it's trite,

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Speaker 9: but it's These are the underpinnings of what these women do.

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Speaker 9: So it's either I'm going to kill the children to

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Speaker 9: get back at you, or I'm going to kill the

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Speaker 9: children if I found a new guy and I don't

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Speaker 9: want the children to be in the way.

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Speaker 2: Interesting that you said that. Interesting, But I also want

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Speaker 2: you to hear the level of detail that she waves

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Speaker 2: into her big fat lie about her two murdered little boys.

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Speaker 2: I can't even imagine. I'm more excruciating death than being

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Speaker 2: strapped in a car, can't get out, The car goes

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Speaker 2: underwater a muddy leg and you're in the car screaming

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Speaker 2: for mommy as that car fills up with water till

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Speaker 2: you drown. Listen to our cut four Crime online.

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Speaker 8: On the night of October twenty fifth, Susan Smith knocks

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Speaker 8: on the door of a house near John D.

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Speaker 6: Long Lake.

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Speaker 8: She's hysterical when the man answers the door and tells

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Speaker 8: him to call the police. A black man just carjacked

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Speaker 8: her at a red light. He had a gun, and

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Speaker 8: she jumped out of the car, but her two boys,

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Speaker 8: three year old Michael and fourteen month old Alex, are

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Speaker 8: still in the car. Police begins searching immediately, and the

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Speaker 8: nation's media converges on Union, South Carolina for eight days.

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Speaker 8: Susan Smith tells an ever changing story of the carjacking,

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Speaker 8: and friends get irritated when she keeps asking if Tom

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Speaker 8: Finley has reached out to see her. Friends wonder why

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Speaker 8: she would care about Findley when her two children are missing.

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Speaker 8: On day nine of intense media pressure, Susan Smith meets

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Speaker 8: with Union County Sheriff Howard Wells, and Wells meets with

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Speaker 8: the press.

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Speaker 2: Okay, note to self, who is Tom Finley? But there's more.

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Speaker 2: There's more. Listen.

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Speaker 8: Susan Smith has carried the lie as far as she can.

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Speaker 8: When she finally admits what she's done, there never was

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Speaker 8: a black man with a gun that stole her car

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Speaker 8: with their kids in the back. She now says she

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Speaker 8: went out for a drive with her sons buckled into

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Speaker 8: their car seats in the back. Feeling desperate, alone and suicidal.

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Speaker 8: She now says she drove to John D. Long Lake

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Speaker 8: and planned to roll the car into the lake. Smith

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Speaker 8: puts the car in neutral, but instead of going into

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Speaker 8: the lake with the car and the boys, she jumps

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Speaker 8: out and watches the car sink. Based on her directions

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Speaker 8: for where the car should be, scuba divers locate the

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Speaker 8: vehicle with the boys in the back still buckled into

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Speaker 8: their seats.

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Speaker 2: Just let that so kN for just one moment, claiming,

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Speaker 2: you know, why is it, Chris mcdona, that all these

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Speaker 2: people that want to commit suicide end up killing their

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Speaker 2: children or their family or somebody else he they miraculously live.

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Speaker 6: I mean, just so horrific thought in of itself, right, Nancy,

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Speaker 6: in the night, I actually drove the entire route that

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Speaker 6: Susan Smith took that day. There were ample opportunities for

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Speaker 6: her to change her mind and turn around.

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Speaker 8: I mean there were.

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Speaker 6: Stop signs, there were you know, through residential neighborhoods. And

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Speaker 6: to think that she was saying to the public, you know,

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Speaker 6: or to the police when she initially confessed, well, you know,

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Speaker 6: I thought about committing suicide, but I couldn't do it,

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Speaker 6: et cetera. So I jumped out. You know, when you

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Speaker 6: go to that boat ramp where these poor little babies

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Speaker 6: are strapped in those back seats, and as that car

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Speaker 6: is going down that ramp. I would submit to you.

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Speaker 6: She had gotten out of that car almost immediately and

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Speaker 6: let that car go to your point a couple of

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Speaker 6: minutes ago. And as that water started to fill that vehicle,

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Speaker 6: can you imagine the horror that these children were experiencing

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Speaker 6: and the mother standing there as that vehicle started to sink.

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Speaker 6: It took about six I think between six to fifteen

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Speaker 6: seconds for that vehicle to hit the water and within

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Speaker 6: a minute it was submerged.

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Speaker 9: Yaanthea, It just shows how cold blooded she is. She

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Speaker 9: could stand on the shore look at the car submerged

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Speaker 9: and knowing that her babies were drowning. It really gives

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Speaker 9: you insight into how detached and just cold blooded she is.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, who is this woman? Take a listen hour cut

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Speaker 2: three from crime online dot Com.

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Speaker 8: After high school, she began dating David Smith. Soon there's

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Speaker 8: a baby on the way and the pair decided to

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Speaker 8: get married. Ultimately, they have two boys, Michael Daniel and

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Speaker 8: Alexander Tyler, but the children don't keep the marriage together.

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Speaker 8: The Smith separate several times. During one of these separations,

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Speaker 8: Susan Smith begins dating Tom Finley, the single son of

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Speaker 8: a wealthy mill owner.

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Speaker 2: Aha, so that is who Tom Finley is, Okay, Tara Mallick,

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Speaker 2: high profile lawyer joining us from our own law firm,

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Speaker 2: Smith and Mallet. Would that be motive to be with

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Speaker 2: this rich guy?

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Speaker 5: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: I think you know, the painted in different ways during

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Speaker 4: the trial itself, and there was some conflicting testimony. One

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Speaker 4: of the theories of the case that was put on

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Speaker 4: and suspected was that she wanted to be with Thomas Finley.

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Speaker 4: Finley didn't like the fact that, you know, she had

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Speaker 4: two kids, and in a way or in an attempt

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Speaker 4: to get back together with Finley, who she was having

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Speaker 4: an affair with, you know, she drowned her two boys.

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Speaker 4: The other testimony that was presented during the trial was that,

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Speaker 4: you know, she was someone who was an abused child,

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Speaker 4: she had had a secret affair with her stepfather, she

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Speaker 4: was frightened of her husband, you know, And so I

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Speaker 4: think those details this jury ended up grappling with. And

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Speaker 4: it's the case that should have been a death penalty case,

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Speaker 4: but unfortunately not.

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Speaker 2: Here killer mom Susan Smith denied parole after drowning her

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Speaker 2: two little boys. Her two toat sons murdered locked in

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Speaker 2: to their car seat strapped in as she gets out

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Speaker 2: and pushes the car into the water, then watches it submerge,

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Speaker 2: murdering her two taut boys. She was put behind bars

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Speaker 2: for drowning the boys, and in the last hours a

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Speaker 2: board unanimously votes to deny her parole. After she appears

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Speaker 2: in a jail house court feed, she was emotional and crying.

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Speaker 2: She says, quote, I know what I did was horrible.

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry that I put them through that. I wish

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Speaker 2: I could take that back, I really do. I was

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Speaker 2: just scared, scared of what I've been scared. But I

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Speaker 2: didn't murder my children because I was afraid. Has she

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Speaker 2: ever heard the word div rcee hits the country song,

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Speaker 2: listen to it. Susan Smith, That's all you had to do.

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Speaker 1: You could have been free.

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Speaker 2: You could have given your husband custody of the children.

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Speaker 2: He would love to have had them. But no, you

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Speaker 2: chose to murder them now. Susan Smith's lawyer, Tommy Thomas,

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Speaker 2: told the barrel Board that Susan Smith had serious mental

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Speaker 2: health issues and postpartum depression, and as an example, he said,

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Speaker 2: I could see the pain on her face. I think

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Speaker 2: she's truly remorseful for what happened. Okay, good she should be,

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Speaker 2: but that doesn't mean she should walk free. I remember

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Speaker 2: the case like it was yesterday, isn't it true? Dave

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Speaker 2: Mack joining us from crime online dot Com that Finley

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Speaker 2: broke it off with her claiming he did not want

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Speaker 2: an instant family.

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Speaker 8: He did, and Nancy, more to the point, are more

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Speaker 8: than just saying I don't want kids. There were other

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Speaker 8: things he stated in there about her and their relationship.

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Speaker 8: He also cited their different upbringings and that that was

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Speaker 8: a big stumbling block. Another one the way Susan Smith

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Speaker 8: acted and flirted with other men. He didn't like that,

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Speaker 8: so he mentioned three basic things that he really didn't

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Speaker 8: want an instant family. But these other two things were

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Speaker 8: mentioned as well, and one was her own behavior of

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Speaker 8: hitting on other men. But she dismisses that in her

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Speaker 8: thought process, blames it all on the kids and thinks

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Speaker 8: she's been get him back if she just gets rid

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Speaker 8: of that. She doesn't address the fact that she hits

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Speaker 8: on men all the time.

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Speaker 2: So let me understand something, Dave Matt. She met Finley

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Speaker 2: the son of the rich guy, when she and her

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Speaker 2: husband were what divorce separated?

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Speaker 8: What separated? They actually when they were married, they had

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Speaker 8: several full on separations where they were not living together,

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Speaker 8: were dating other people, and yet they would then get

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Speaker 8: back together and it was on and off or I

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Speaker 8: think I mean after they had the last time. He

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Speaker 8: was fourteen months old while this happened, so it was

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Speaker 8: an ongoing process in their relationship that breaking out getting

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Speaker 8: back together.

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Speaker 2: Let me get back to Dodgor Bethony Marshall, what do

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Speaker 2: you make of this? It was always presented that family

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Speaker 2: broke up with her because he didn't want an instant family,

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Speaker 2: But according to the letter he sent her before she

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Speaker 2: murdered her to little boys, it was a lot more

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Speaker 2: than that.

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Speaker 9: He's probably minimizing it because now he has the scrutiny

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Speaker 9: of the country and the court and saying, well, I

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Speaker 9: didn't really want her anyway. But there's partially, I think

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Speaker 9: a half truth in that maybe he wasn't ready for

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Speaker 9: a family and children and he was contemplating that. And

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Speaker 9: I think Susan Smith was the kind of woman who

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Speaker 9: would just ignore the fact that he didn't want to

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Speaker 9: be with her. She would think, oh, you know, I'll

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Speaker 9: buy any dress, Oh I'll go shopping. Oh, I'll buy

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Speaker 9: some listics, I'll wear a low cut dress. Oh I'll

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Speaker 9: just kill my children. I mean just She would just

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Speaker 9: throw everything at it to get him back. So I

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Speaker 9: think if he was ambivalent about her, that may have

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Speaker 9: even incentivized her to kill her children.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I obviously need to reword my question. There were

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Speaker 2: other behaviors he found disturbing which led to his decision

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Speaker 2: to break it off with her. Not only that he

408
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:23,200
Speaker 2: did not want an instant family, but he did not

409
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Speaker 2: like the way she acted promiscuously with other guys. He

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Speaker 2: didn't want that.

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Speaker 9: I think some women relate primarily to men because they

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Speaker 9: feel they can seduce them, and I think this was

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Speaker 9: probably her mo that the minute she met a man,

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Speaker 9: she would be furcacious, she would be overly sexualized, she

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Speaker 9: would try to attract them. She probably did that all

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Speaker 9: the time because this is a way of feeling important,

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Speaker 9: like she's a real person in the real world, and

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Speaker 9: she doesn't really have to relate to the men. If

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Speaker 9: it's sexual in an instant then they never become real

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Speaker 9: pe people to her. They're all just objects love objects

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Speaker 9: who flatter her.

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Speaker 8: Listen, now are cut for Susan Smith is planning a

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Speaker 8: future with the best catch in the county when she

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Speaker 8: gets a Dear John letter from Dear Tom. He explains

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Speaker 8: he doesn't think the relationship will work because of the

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Speaker 8: difference in their upbringing, the way she acts towards other men,

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Speaker 8: and he doesn't want an instant family. He doesn't want

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Speaker 8: children right now. Susan dismisses her upbringing or her behavior

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Speaker 8: towards other men as possible deal breakers in the relationship,

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Speaker 8: and the only thing she sees is Tom Finley doesn't

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Speaker 8: want children.

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Speaker 2: So she ignores everything except the children part of the complaint,

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Speaker 2: and then suddenly, poof, they're gone. In the last days,

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Speaker 2: Susan Smith back in the news, apparently having a romantic

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Speaker 2: relationship with at least six men behind bars.

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Speaker 1: Okay, what does that mean?

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Speaker 2: Well, there are precursors to today's report of Susan smith

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Speaker 2: Us relationships with six guys. What precursors will listener ourcut ten.

439
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 8: A tabloid news report claiming Susan Smith had been beaten

440
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,040
Speaker 8: by guards at a prison in South Carolina gave birth

441
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 8: to an investigation into the matter. While there was no

442
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,920
Speaker 8: proof she had been beaten, Smith told prison investigators that

443
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 8: she had four sexual encounters Lieutenant Houston Cagle, a supervisor

444
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:28,000
Speaker 8: at South Carolina's Women's Correctional Institution WCI, where she's confined.

445
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 8: Cagil admitted having sex with Smith and another prisoner and

446
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 8: was charged with the offense in August of two thousand.

447
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:36,720
Speaker 8: Smith was twenty eight at the time and was disciplined

448
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:38,959
Speaker 8: for having sex with the guard, while fifty year old

449
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,200
Speaker 8: Kagel pleaded guilty and spent three months in jail. In

450
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,200
Speaker 8: two thousand and one, a prison captain, Alfred Rowe, also

451
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 8: pleaded guilty to having sex with Smith and was sentenced

452
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 8: to five years probation. It was then discovered that Susan

453
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:55,639
Speaker 8: Smith engaged in sexual relations with Cagel after she tested

454
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 8: positive for an STD.

455
00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:02,359
Speaker 2: Okay, so she claims I was beaten and that spawns

456
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:06,200
Speaker 2: an investigation, but it turns out she wasn't beaten. She

457
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,879
Speaker 2: was sleeping with various prison guards. Just goott Morgan, remind

458
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 2: me what is it like to drown? You're the death investigator,

459
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 2: one of the.

460
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:19,680
Speaker 7: Most horrible desks that you can even begin to think about.

461
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,399
Speaker 7: And the fact is, the thing that's always bothered me

462
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 7: about this case, Nancy is that with Alex and mikeel On.

463
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:29,679
Speaker 7: I think it's really important that I say their names

464
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 7: at this moment in time, because they are the victims.

465
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 7: When they were strapped in those little seats in the

466
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 7: back of that Mazda and that tight, little confined place

467
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,680
Speaker 7: where maybe their mother had taken them to McDonald's before,

468
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 7: had taken them all over town, and suddenly they're at

469
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:46,200
Speaker 7: the edge of a boat ramp and they're thinking, you know,

470
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 7: what's mama doing now? You know, she gets out of

471
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 7: the car and as that car is left and neutral

472
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 7: and goes down that boat ramp and begins to slowly

473
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,439
Speaker 7: sink beneath those dark waters out there. You know, they

474
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 7: found that about one hundred and twenty feet off of

475
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:06,359
Speaker 7: the shore. The dive team had looked for it for

476
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 7: some period of time. Car was filled with water. Those

477
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:12,639
Speaker 7: kids were still strapped in that back seat, and our

478
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 7: reaction as humans, if we're trying to catch our breath,

479
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 7: is to fight. And just imagine this, Nancy, they're strapped.

480
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,640
Speaker 7: We've all got babies in our families that we've taken

481
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:26,560
Speaker 7: care of. We strapped them in car seats, and you

482
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 7: ever seen a child struggle to get out of the

483
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 7: car seat. They're tired of being in it. Well, imagine that,

484
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 7: only water's creeping up on you. Water's getting into your nose,

485
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 7: your little mouth, your eyes, You're running out of oxygen.

486
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 7: Your brain is screaming. It's on fire because there's no oxygen.

487
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 7: You can't catch your breath, and you have no idea.

488
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 7: It's panic that's setting in and it would not have been.

489
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 7: I just wanted to spell any kind of fantasy somebody

490
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 7: might be having right now that this was a sudden

491
00:28:58,280 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 7: and a quick death.

492
00:28:59,560 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 10: It was.

493
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 7: It was torturous. It was absolutely horrific what these babies

494
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 7: went through at that moment, Tom Nancy, And I'm with you.

495
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 7: I'm still to this day just befuddled why she's not

496
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 7: sitting on death row. And you know, forever and ever

497
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 7: she's getting going with her life. No, isn't she And

498
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 7: those babies died, died at this monster's hands out there

499
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 7: out there in.

500
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 2: That lake, knowing full well what she did, immediately running

501
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 2: to a nearby home, claiming that an unknown male had

502
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:36,719
Speaker 2: jumped into her car. And I guess the only red

503
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:39,480
Speaker 2: light in the county. And I feel okay saying that

504
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 2: because where I grew up. We didn't even have a

505
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 2: red light, so out of the entire county, an unknown

506
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 2: assilant jumps into her car at the one red light,

507
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:55,160
Speaker 2: takes her car and murders her children. Okay, this is

508
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 2: the woman these guys want to be with. Speaking of them,

509
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 2: there is a matter of Captain Alfred Rowe. Now we

510
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 2: heard about Cagele Cagile, a supervisor at South Carolina Women's

511
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 2: ci Correctional Institute, and what happened with him. We know

512
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 2: that he was ultimately identified because Susan Smith turned up

513
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 2: with an std behind bars. But there's more. Take a

514
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 2: listen to our cut eleven. Does she not realize there

515
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 2: are consequences to actions.

516
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 8: Captain Alfred Smith was one of the guards who lost

517
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 8: their careers after having sex with Susan Smith behind bars.

518
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 8: Rose says Smith is a master manipulator, telling Inside Edition

519
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 8: that Smith approached him at three in the morning, telling

520
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:44,480
Speaker 8: him she thought he was the nicest officer at the

521
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 8: prison and that she was lonely. The former guard says

522
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 8: things just escalated from there. Roe claims he only had

523
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 8: sex with Smith one time, but he cost him everything.

524
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 8: He was fired from the job, lost his pension, and

525
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 8: after pleading guilty to having sex with Smith. He was

526
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 8: sentenced to five years probation.

527
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 2: Take a Lisnower Cut twelve.

528
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 8: Sex isn't the only issue Susan Smith has faced in prison.

529
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 8: Twice in twenty ten and once in twenty fifteen, Susan

530
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 8: Smith was disciplined on drug charges, losing privileges for more

531
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,960
Speaker 8: than a year. Susan Smith's drug use escalated when she

532
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 8: switched prisons from Camille Graham Correctional Center in Columbia, South Carolina,

533
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 8: to Leath Correctional Institution in Greenwood, South Carolina. Former prison

534
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 8: guard Alfred Rowe, who pleaded guilty to having sex with

535
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 8: Smith at the prison, told the TV show Sellmate Secrets

536
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 8: when Smith was moved from one prison to another, that

537
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 8: it was at that point where quote she could no

538
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 8: longer get the mail attention that she used as a

539
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,480
Speaker 8: drug unquote, and instead turned to pilled which led.

540
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 2: To a series of drug infractions.

541
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace.

542
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 2: In the last hours, a parole board shuts down murder

543
00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 2: mom Susan Smith there to defend his two her sons,

544
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 2: David Smith, Susan Smith's ex He says, and I quote,

545
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 2: I'm here to advocate on Michael and Alex's behalf and

546
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:14,480
Speaker 2: as their father, God gives us free choice. She made

547
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 2: free choice that night to end their life. This wasn't

548
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 2: a tragic mistake. She purposely meant to end their lives.

549
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 2: I'm asking that you please deny her parole today. He

550
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 2: was emotional, holding back tears, his face contorted in pain.

551
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 2: Susan Smith's ex husband, the father of Michael and Alex,

552
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 2: David Smith, attended the parole board along with his new

553
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 2: wife and daughter, and Tommy Pope, the prosecutor on the case. Pope,

554
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 2: the former prosecutor, said quote, I believe the jury intended

555
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 2: for her to for her to serve a full life sentence.

556
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 2: They wanted her to spend her life and remorse from

557
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 2: Michael and Alex and.

558
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 1: What she had done.

559
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 2: And she has spent time focusing on herself, having sex

560
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 2: with prison guards and more. So, wait a minute, while

561
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 2: she was improving herself and thinking about Michael Alex, instead

562
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:27,960
Speaker 2: she was having sex affairs with prison guards and more.

563
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 2: The narrative, her story that she projects is so different

564
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:38,480
Speaker 2: from reality life has not passed her by. She committed

565
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:44,240
Speaker 2: double murder, that that's what happened it's not anyone's fault

566
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 2: but her own. Absolutely.

567
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 4: I mean, and if life has passed her by, how

568
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 4: does she characterize what she did to her son? She

569
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 4: took their life away, they.

570
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 2: Didn't even have the opportunity to live a life.

571
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 4: I mean, these were really young kids here. And I

572
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 4: think you know, the pattern of behavior that she's exhibited,

573
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 4: like the infractions that she's picked up while she's been

574
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 4: in prison, I mean, all of this doesn't tend to

575
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,839
Speaker 4: show that this is someone who has been rehabilitated while

576
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 4: in prison. I mean, she's still showing those signs of

577
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 4: manipulation that you know she engaged in before she was

578
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 4: convicted and sentence, you know, leading on the nation for

579
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:31,799
Speaker 4: nine days, telling lies about what actually happened, telling lies

580
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 4: and swinging fingers of people that didn't exist. So this

581
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,280
Speaker 4: is a really deeply disturbed individual.

582
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,840
Speaker 2: Chris mc dunna with me, a former homicide detective and

583
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:44,719
Speaker 2: host of YouTube channel The Interview Room who has investigated

584
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:49,919
Speaker 2: at least three hundred homicides. You know, defendants can be very,

585
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:56,320
Speaker 2: very charming. Think about Scott Paterson or doctor Martin McNeil,

586
00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:01,240
Speaker 2: who killed his wife, a beauty queen. According to Susan

587
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:05,840
Speaker 2: Smith's family. They say, quote she seems to be happy,

588
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:10,800
Speaker 2: and that she quote always had a messy love life.

589
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:17,720
Speaker 2: She's creating a fictional version of her life and people

590
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 2: are buying it. These guys, these lonely hearts, are buying

591
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 2: it and attempting to have let me just say, romantic

592
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:31,759
Speaker 2: interludes with her. Chris McDonough, have you ever met a

593
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:35,840
Speaker 2: charming murder defendant? Because I have absolutely Nancy.

594
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:40,280
Speaker 6: And what's interesting about her is we have to always

595
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 6: remember that all behavior has a purpose, and that past

596
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 6: behavior is usually an indication of future behavior. So she

597
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 6: has always, throughout her entire case and through her life here,

598
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:59,320
Speaker 6: while in prison and even before prison, she always sometimes

599
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:05,279
Speaker 6: projected the words of the day into her vocabulary. And

600
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 6: if we listen real carefully to the minutia of what

601
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:14,240
Speaker 6: she said in the very beginning, whoever they are, please

602
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 6: bring them home. E. She's talking about two suspects, but

603
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:23,880
Speaker 6: she talks about one in terms of a description. And

604
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 6: now if we fast forward that to today, we have

605
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 6: six individuals men who quite frankly, I can't figure that

606
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 6: piece of a puzzle out. You know, that's for the

607
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:38,759
Speaker 6: doctors to tell us what that's all about. But she

608
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 6: is utilizing that behavior still to this day by talking

609
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 6: about money, by talking about sexual TIFFs there between the

610
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 6: two of them, and she hasn't lost a thought from

611
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:56,720
Speaker 6: miss Leopard.

612
00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 2: You know, Joscott Morgan, maybe we just know too much

613
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 2: when it comes to murder, because when I think of

614
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 2: Susan Smith, I immediately think of being trapped strapped in

615
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 2: to a car as it's going down a ramp and

616
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 2: going underwater and seeing the water coming up on either

617
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 2: side and starting to pour in through the windshiels, It

618
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 2: comes up around you and you can't get out. I mean,

619
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:28,360
Speaker 2: the children in this case were three and fourteen months.

620
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:33,400
Speaker 7: They never had stood a chance within this environment. And

621
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:37,600
Speaker 7: here's another thing that people might not be aware of.

622
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:43,239
Speaker 7: After that car dip beneath the surface of that water,

623
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,920
Speaker 7: one other element we have to consider. And again I

624
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:50,760
Speaker 7: go back to the idea that we all have had babies,

625
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,760
Speaker 7: you know, parents, that sort of thing. I've got kids

626
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 7: and grandkids whom I love dearly. And what is that

627
00:37:57,200 --> 00:37:59,880
Speaker 7: the kids are afraid of? Late at night it's darkness,

628
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:02,880
Speaker 7: and it would you would not have been able to

629
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:05,279
Speaker 7: have seen your hand in front of your face, so

630
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:09,280
Speaker 7: Not only are they absent a loving mother who normally

631
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 7: you would hope would take care of them, they're they're disoriented,

632
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,600
Speaker 7: they're running out of breath, and it's dark, Nancy, it's

633
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:21,560
Speaker 7: cold and it's dark down there. And that's that goes

634
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 7: to the level of horror that they're that they're you know, experiencing.

635
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:30,280
Speaker 2: Bottom line, Susan Smith, no parole.

636
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 1: But here's the kicker.

637
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 2: Even though she's just been tonight parole, she's back up

638
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:40,480
Speaker 2: for parole in just two years. We wait as justice

639
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:46,440
Speaker 2: unfolds and ps Susan Smith, I hope you're listening, devil,

640
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 2: goodbye friend.

641
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 10: The end