1 00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:23,476 Speaker 1: Pushkin, especially in the new year. We tend to associate 2 00:00:23,556 --> 00:00:27,916 Speaker 1: feeling happier with making changes, sometimes little changes moving a 3 00:00:27,956 --> 00:00:30,956 Speaker 1: bit more or connecting more with friends, and sometimes big 4 00:00:31,036 --> 00:00:34,636 Speaker 1: changes leaving a toxic job or starting a new creative project. 5 00:00:34,956 --> 00:00:37,276 Speaker 1: But when we fantasize about the change we'll experience in 6 00:00:37,316 --> 00:00:40,756 Speaker 1: twenty twenty six, we're usually thinking about the changes that 7 00:00:40,796 --> 00:00:44,116 Speaker 1: we choose, But life can also hit us with changes 8 00:00:44,156 --> 00:00:47,396 Speaker 1: that we don't see coming, being dumped, getting laid off, 9 00:00:47,636 --> 00:00:51,596 Speaker 1: or even receiving a frightening health diagnosis. When unexpected changes 10 00:00:51,636 --> 00:00:54,956 Speaker 1: like these happen, they can often leave us feeling very stuck. 11 00:00:55,436 --> 00:00:57,756 Speaker 2: We feel like who we are and who we can 12 00:00:57,796 --> 00:01:00,796 Speaker 2: become is no longer clear. We don't have a firm 13 00:01:00,876 --> 00:01:02,636 Speaker 2: grip on ourselves anymore. 14 00:01:02,756 --> 00:01:02,876 Speaker 3: So. 15 00:01:02,916 --> 00:01:05,476 Speaker 1: In this second episode in our season about getting unstuck 16 00:01:05,516 --> 00:01:07,676 Speaker 1: in the new Year, we're going to explore how we 17 00:01:07,716 --> 00:01:10,996 Speaker 1: can work with change in six rather than fighting it, 18 00:01:11,516 --> 00:01:14,516 Speaker 1: and we have the perfect guest to guide us, though 19 00:01:14,596 --> 00:01:16,356 Speaker 1: I admit I might be a little biased. 20 00:01:16,916 --> 00:01:19,716 Speaker 2: I'm doctor Mayah Schunker, and I'm host of the podcast 21 00:01:19,756 --> 00:01:22,596 Speaker 2: A Slight Change of Plans and the author of the 22 00:01:22,676 --> 00:01:25,356 Speaker 2: Other Side of Change, Who We Become when life makes 23 00:01:25,356 --> 00:01:25,956 Speaker 2: other plans. 24 00:01:26,636 --> 00:01:28,076 Speaker 4: And you're also my former student. 25 00:01:28,916 --> 00:01:31,716 Speaker 5: I am seventeen, man, that's how long I've known. 26 00:01:31,836 --> 00:01:33,236 Speaker 4: It wasn't when you was seventeen. You must have been 27 00:01:33,236 --> 00:01:35,436 Speaker 4: like three, because I can't possibly be nibled. 28 00:01:35,956 --> 00:01:38,156 Speaker 1: Since her time is my student. Maya has become an 29 00:01:38,196 --> 00:01:41,396 Speaker 1: expert on how to tackle unexpected change, and one of 30 00:01:41,436 --> 00:01:44,956 Speaker 1: her biggest insights is the unexpected change is terrifying. 31 00:01:45,276 --> 00:01:48,316 Speaker 2: We are afraid of change for at least two reasons. 32 00:01:48,436 --> 00:01:52,396 Speaker 2: The first is that change is often accompanied by a 33 00:01:52,516 --> 00:01:56,316 Speaker 2: lot of uncertainty, and our brains are not wired to 34 00:01:56,516 --> 00:02:00,956 Speaker 2: enjoy uncertainty. So there's this fascinating research study which shows 35 00:02:00,996 --> 00:02:04,036 Speaker 2: that people are more stressed when they're told they have 36 00:02:04,116 --> 00:02:07,516 Speaker 2: a fifty percent chance of receiving an electric shock than 37 00:02:07,556 --> 00:02:10,036 Speaker 2: when they're told they have a one hundred percent chance 38 00:02:10,316 --> 00:02:13,196 Speaker 2: of receiving an electric shock. So we would rather be 39 00:02:13,356 --> 00:02:15,436 Speaker 2: certain that a bad thing is going to happen than 40 00:02:15,476 --> 00:02:18,876 Speaker 2: to have to grapple with any uncertainty. And I so 41 00:02:19,276 --> 00:02:22,276 Speaker 2: resonate with this, Laurie. I'm like, bring on the shocks. 42 00:02:22,676 --> 00:02:24,796 Speaker 2: I just want to know how the story ends. I 43 00:02:25,036 --> 00:02:27,836 Speaker 2: really feel so much anxiety when I don't have clarity 44 00:02:28,276 --> 00:02:31,996 Speaker 2: on what comes next. And another reason why change is 45 00:02:32,116 --> 00:02:35,756 Speaker 2: so scary is that it involves loss of some kind. 46 00:02:35,916 --> 00:02:40,476 Speaker 2: So almost by definition, we are moving from one way 47 00:02:40,516 --> 00:02:42,476 Speaker 2: of being, an old way of being, into a new 48 00:02:42,516 --> 00:02:45,036 Speaker 2: way of being. And so even when the change is good, 49 00:02:45,436 --> 00:02:49,356 Speaker 2: there's still some element of grief that accompanies that shift. 50 00:02:49,996 --> 00:02:53,316 Speaker 2: Change can involve a threat to our sense of identity, 51 00:02:53,876 --> 00:02:56,436 Speaker 2: and I think that is the most destabilizing thing. 52 00:02:56,636 --> 00:02:56,796 Speaker 5: Right. 53 00:02:56,836 --> 00:02:59,476 Speaker 2: So you have all these roles and labels that you 54 00:02:59,516 --> 00:03:04,476 Speaker 2: assign yourself. I'm a teacher, I'm a violinist, I'm a volunteer, 55 00:03:04,636 --> 00:03:07,396 Speaker 2: whatever it is, and then something happens in your life 56 00:03:07,636 --> 00:03:10,236 Speaker 2: and all of a sudden that identify that you attached 57 00:03:10,636 --> 00:03:13,236 Speaker 2: so much weight to, that gave your life so much meaning, 58 00:03:13,276 --> 00:03:16,196 Speaker 2: and where you placed your self worth is now in jeopardy. 59 00:03:16,476 --> 00:03:18,836 Speaker 2: And I think that's one reason again that we can think, 60 00:03:18,916 --> 00:03:21,236 Speaker 2: oh my god, I feel completely unmoored. 61 00:03:22,036 --> 00:03:25,436 Speaker 1: But these days Maya is a fan of embracing life's curveballs. 62 00:03:25,676 --> 00:03:29,156 Speaker 2: So I should clarify I am a fan of exploring change, 63 00:03:29,196 --> 00:03:32,516 Speaker 2: and I'm recovering when it comes to my relationship with change. 64 00:03:32,516 --> 00:03:36,276 Speaker 2: So you're recovering, change hater, change hater exactly exactly. So 65 00:03:36,836 --> 00:03:39,676 Speaker 2: I've been terrified of change my whole life. I am 66 00:03:39,716 --> 00:03:43,356 Speaker 2: a creature of habit I love routines. As I mentioned earlier, 67 00:03:43,396 --> 00:03:45,876 Speaker 2: I like knowing how the story ends and how everything's 68 00:03:45,876 --> 00:03:48,356 Speaker 2: going to unfold, and not just by the way, Laurie, 69 00:03:48,436 --> 00:03:50,156 Speaker 2: how the story's going to unfold, but how I'm going 70 00:03:50,196 --> 00:03:53,076 Speaker 2: to feel about how the story unfolds. And so I'm 71 00:03:53,076 --> 00:03:55,556 Speaker 2: the type of person that just loves having her hands 72 00:03:55,796 --> 00:04:00,476 Speaker 2: firmly on the steering wheel, dictating every single move. And 73 00:04:01,276 --> 00:04:05,036 Speaker 2: I think one reason why I've been scared of change 74 00:04:05,196 --> 00:04:08,436 Speaker 2: is that I had this really formative experience with change 75 00:04:08,436 --> 00:04:11,996 Speaker 2: as a kid that I was not prepared for, and 76 00:04:12,076 --> 00:04:14,956 Speaker 2: I didn't have any of the cognitive science strategies I 77 00:04:14,996 --> 00:04:17,396 Speaker 2: have today to even know how to navigate it. So 78 00:04:17,996 --> 00:04:21,476 Speaker 2: right before I met you, Laurie and entered your undergrad class, 79 00:04:21,836 --> 00:04:25,076 Speaker 2: I was an aspiring concert violinist. So I started playing 80 00:04:25,116 --> 00:04:27,916 Speaker 2: the violin when I was six. It quickly became the 81 00:04:27,916 --> 00:04:30,636 Speaker 2: center of my life. When I was nine, I started 82 00:04:30,636 --> 00:04:33,596 Speaker 2: studying at the Juilliard School of Music. When I was 83 00:04:33,676 --> 00:04:37,316 Speaker 2: a teenager, the renowned violinist It'sack Pearlman inviting me to 84 00:04:37,356 --> 00:04:39,876 Speaker 2: be his private violin student. I was traveling, I was 85 00:04:39,876 --> 00:04:42,556 Speaker 2: solong with the orchestras, like all my big dreams were 86 00:04:42,596 --> 00:04:46,396 Speaker 2: coming true, and I finally thought to myself, maybe I 87 00:04:46,556 --> 00:04:49,436 Speaker 2: have what it takes to go pro one day, and 88 00:04:49,476 --> 00:04:52,836 Speaker 2: that was so exhilarating. Everything was going according to plan 89 00:04:53,236 --> 00:04:57,476 Speaker 2: until one morning, when I was fifteen, I overstretched my 90 00:04:57,516 --> 00:05:00,636 Speaker 2: finger on a single note. I heard a popping sound, 91 00:05:01,356 --> 00:05:03,596 Speaker 2: and it turns out that I had damaged tendons in 92 00:05:03,636 --> 00:05:07,676 Speaker 2: my hand, and doctors later told me that this was 93 00:05:07,716 --> 00:05:11,236 Speaker 2: a career ending injury. And as you can imagine, I 94 00:05:11,436 --> 00:05:15,556 Speaker 2: was absolutely devastated and probably not a lot of fun 95 00:05:15,636 --> 00:05:18,036 Speaker 2: for my parents and siblings to be around during that 96 00:05:18,076 --> 00:05:21,076 Speaker 2: period of time. But there was something so interesting about 97 00:05:21,076 --> 00:05:25,156 Speaker 2: my grief, and this hearkens back to our conversation about identity. 98 00:05:25,276 --> 00:05:27,996 Speaker 2: I was grieving not just the loss of the instrument, 99 00:05:28,516 --> 00:05:31,676 Speaker 2: but also the loss of myself. I think sometimes we 100 00:05:31,716 --> 00:05:36,276 Speaker 2: don't realize how much something defines us until we lose it, 101 00:05:36,396 --> 00:05:38,916 Speaker 2: until it's taken away from us. It turns out that 102 00:05:38,956 --> 00:05:42,396 Speaker 2: the violin at that point had become an extension of 103 00:05:42,396 --> 00:05:44,356 Speaker 2: my body. If someone had asked me who I was, 104 00:05:44,396 --> 00:05:46,076 Speaker 2: I would have said, I'm a violinist before I even 105 00:05:46,116 --> 00:05:47,116 Speaker 2: told people I was Maya. 106 00:05:47,276 --> 00:05:48,956 Speaker 5: Right, it was at the core of my being. 107 00:05:49,476 --> 00:05:53,236 Speaker 2: And so I found myself so destabilized because the thing 108 00:05:53,596 --> 00:05:54,916 Speaker 2: that I felt made me me. 109 00:05:55,836 --> 00:05:56,556 Speaker 5: Was taken away. 110 00:05:56,716 --> 00:06:00,196 Speaker 2: And I imagine so many people can relate to changes 111 00:06:00,236 --> 00:06:03,876 Speaker 2: happening like this and you get really stuck in those moments. 112 00:06:04,076 --> 00:06:06,316 Speaker 4: But it also seems you lost something else. You lost 113 00:06:06,356 --> 00:06:09,276 Speaker 4: this thing that psychologists call the illusion of control. What 114 00:06:09,316 --> 00:06:12,516 Speaker 4: does this illusion mean and what happens when it falls 115 00:06:12,556 --> 00:06:13,476 Speaker 4: apart in our lives? 116 00:06:13,636 --> 00:06:17,156 Speaker 2: Yeah, in everyday life, most of us fall prey to 117 00:06:17,236 --> 00:06:21,356 Speaker 2: the illusion of control, which basically means that we overestimate 118 00:06:21,476 --> 00:06:24,636 Speaker 2: our degree to influence outcomes in our lives, to basically 119 00:06:24,716 --> 00:06:28,916 Speaker 2: dictate how our lives turn out. And this is obviously 120 00:06:29,076 --> 00:06:33,236 Speaker 2: very psychologically adaptive, right, Larie, because it would be quite dispiriting, 121 00:06:33,276 --> 00:06:35,356 Speaker 2: I think for our morale if we just moved about 122 00:06:35,356 --> 00:06:37,436 Speaker 2: the world being like, yep, we're not in control at. 123 00:06:37,356 --> 00:06:40,396 Speaker 4: All, can't control anything. Circumstances are affecting me terribly. 124 00:06:40,556 --> 00:06:42,796 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, like nothing we do matters. It doesn't matter 125 00:06:42,796 --> 00:06:44,996 Speaker 2: if I work hard at this or not. And obviously 126 00:06:45,116 --> 00:06:47,356 Speaker 2: we are in control of many things. But when a 127 00:06:47,396 --> 00:06:52,676 Speaker 2: big and unexpected negative change happens when that proverbial anvil 128 00:06:52,876 --> 00:06:56,316 Speaker 2: falls from the sky. It can shatter that illusion, and 129 00:06:56,636 --> 00:06:59,956 Speaker 2: in those moments we are forced to confront the true 130 00:07:00,036 --> 00:07:01,196 Speaker 2: limits of our control. 131 00:07:01,836 --> 00:07:04,276 Speaker 4: And so dealing with these big changes, these big moments 132 00:07:04,316 --> 00:07:06,476 Speaker 4: of trying to get unstuck, they involve giving up this 133 00:07:06,556 --> 00:07:09,196 Speaker 4: illusion of control, often at least a little bit. But 134 00:07:09,236 --> 00:07:10,916 Speaker 4: you've argued that we can deal with these moments a 135 00:07:10,916 --> 00:07:13,396 Speaker 4: little bit better if we get over other misconceptions we 136 00:07:13,476 --> 00:07:16,196 Speaker 4: have about change. That way, we can chill out about change, 137 00:07:16,236 --> 00:07:18,756 Speaker 4: as it were, to get So let's dive into some 138 00:07:18,796 --> 00:07:21,556 Speaker 4: of these misconceptions. One of these is the end of 139 00:07:21,636 --> 00:07:24,516 Speaker 4: history illusion. What's that illusion? And how can we overcome it? 140 00:07:24,996 --> 00:07:27,116 Speaker 2: I love the end of history illusion, and I feel 141 00:07:27,116 --> 00:07:29,356 Speaker 2: like understanding it has changed the way that I see 142 00:07:29,396 --> 00:07:34,556 Speaker 2: my whole future. Research shows that we greatly underestimate how 143 00:07:34,636 --> 00:07:37,436 Speaker 2: much we'll change in the future, even though we fully 144 00:07:37,476 --> 00:07:42,076 Speaker 2: acknowledge that we've changed considerably in the past. And again 145 00:07:42,156 --> 00:07:44,556 Speaker 2: I so resonate with this because, Laurie, if you showed 146 00:07:44,556 --> 00:07:48,036 Speaker 2: me footage from my years as an undergrad from seventeen 147 00:07:48,116 --> 00:07:50,636 Speaker 2: year old Maya, which as your professor, I can yes, 148 00:07:50,756 --> 00:07:53,676 Speaker 2: and you have have the receipt all of that blackmail 149 00:07:53,716 --> 00:07:56,556 Speaker 2: on me. I will have a total cringe moment. I'll 150 00:07:56,556 --> 00:07:59,076 Speaker 2: be like, who is that person? Oh my god, I'm 151 00:07:59,116 --> 00:08:02,516 Speaker 2: so embarrassed that she was ever like that. But if 152 00:08:02,556 --> 00:08:05,036 Speaker 2: you ask me today how much are you going to 153 00:08:05,116 --> 00:08:07,156 Speaker 2: change in the future, Maya, I'm going to say to you, 154 00:08:07,556 --> 00:08:11,036 Speaker 2: finished product over here, done changing. And I love it 155 00:08:11,076 --> 00:08:13,756 Speaker 2: because the researchers who coin this term, Dan Gilbert and 156 00:08:13,756 --> 00:08:17,316 Speaker 2: his colleagues, they say something like people regard the present 157 00:08:17,396 --> 00:08:20,636 Speaker 2: day moment as this watershed moment in which they become 158 00:08:20,716 --> 00:08:23,516 Speaker 2: the person they will be for the rest of their lives. 159 00:08:23,916 --> 00:08:26,436 Speaker 2: And so what happens in the face of a change 160 00:08:26,476 --> 00:08:30,036 Speaker 2: is that we falsely believe that who we are right 161 00:08:30,076 --> 00:08:32,276 Speaker 2: now in this moment is going to be the person 162 00:08:32,396 --> 00:08:36,676 Speaker 2: navigating that full experience, when actually we will become different 163 00:08:36,716 --> 00:08:38,596 Speaker 2: people on the other side of change. 164 00:08:38,876 --> 00:08:40,956 Speaker 4: And this is the idea that you've pushed that change 165 00:08:41,116 --> 00:08:43,276 Speaker 4: changes us. What are some of the ways in which 166 00:08:43,356 --> 00:08:44,436 Speaker 4: change changes us? 167 00:08:44,916 --> 00:08:50,076 Speaker 2: We are constantly evolving, and importantly, a major disruption in 168 00:08:50,116 --> 00:08:54,836 Speaker 2: our lives can accelerate that internal transformation. So, in other words, 169 00:08:55,156 --> 00:08:58,196 Speaker 2: when a big change happens to us. It can also 170 00:08:58,396 --> 00:09:02,636 Speaker 2: lead to profound change within us, and that's because the 171 00:09:03,196 --> 00:09:07,076 Speaker 2: unique stresses and demands of being thrust into this new 172 00:09:07,116 --> 00:09:13,276 Speaker 2: reality can uncover unexpected and sometimes astonishing insights to us 173 00:09:13,316 --> 00:09:16,436 Speaker 2: about who we are that we're previously hidden from view. 174 00:09:16,876 --> 00:09:19,396 Speaker 2: Like I think one illusion we have is that we 175 00:09:19,436 --> 00:09:21,356 Speaker 2: have a really good grasp of who we are. But 176 00:09:21,436 --> 00:09:24,196 Speaker 2: the truth is that you and I have a self 177 00:09:24,196 --> 00:09:26,556 Speaker 2: concept that is based on the random set of data 178 00:09:26,596 --> 00:09:29,436 Speaker 2: points that we've happened to collect over our lives, based 179 00:09:29,476 --> 00:09:32,436 Speaker 2: on the arbitrary set of experiences that we've had. It's 180 00:09:32,436 --> 00:09:34,476 Speaker 2: not a comprehensive view of who we are. And when 181 00:09:34,476 --> 00:09:37,436 Speaker 2: we get thrust into change, all of these things now 182 00:09:37,476 --> 00:09:40,876 Speaker 2: come to the fore that we didn't previously see, certain beliefs, 183 00:09:40,916 --> 00:09:43,476 Speaker 2: that we are laboring under abilities that we had never 184 00:09:43,556 --> 00:09:46,636 Speaker 2: tapped before, new perspectives. Oh my gosh, I never thought 185 00:09:46,676 --> 00:09:48,836 Speaker 2: I could even see the world this way, right, It's 186 00:09:48,876 --> 00:09:52,836 Speaker 2: just being thrown into the deep end where everything gets unearthed, 187 00:09:52,876 --> 00:09:54,996 Speaker 2: and we now have to contend with all those things 188 00:09:55,036 --> 00:09:55,516 Speaker 2: we see. 189 00:09:56,156 --> 00:09:58,836 Speaker 4: It sounds like you're talking about this as like a positive, like, 190 00:09:58,916 --> 00:10:01,116 Speaker 4: oh my gosh, changes us and we have all these 191 00:10:01,116 --> 00:10:04,076 Speaker 4: new perspectives, but we're also getting thrown into the deep end, 192 00:10:04,076 --> 00:10:07,196 Speaker 4: as you say, like it seems really scary. But your 193 00:10:07,236 --> 00:10:09,796 Speaker 4: book I love because it argues that we should see 194 00:10:09,836 --> 00:10:13,156 Speaker 4: this as a moment of feeling empowered. The fact that 195 00:10:13,236 --> 00:10:16,436 Speaker 4: change will change us winds up being ultimately a good thing. 196 00:10:16,956 --> 00:10:19,196 Speaker 4: Explain to me why that is because I'm seeing the 197 00:10:19,196 --> 00:10:21,076 Speaker 4: deep end Part one that I'm seeing the impact. 198 00:10:20,796 --> 00:10:22,796 Speaker 2: Absolutely and again, for most of my life I was 199 00:10:22,796 --> 00:10:25,836 Speaker 2: a deep ender, so I never saw what the positive was. 200 00:10:26,316 --> 00:10:28,756 Speaker 2: When we think about a terrible thing that happens in 201 00:10:28,756 --> 00:10:30,876 Speaker 2: our lives, it can feel like we are going through 202 00:10:30,916 --> 00:10:34,876 Speaker 2: an apocalypse. And when you look at the origin of 203 00:10:34,956 --> 00:10:40,156 Speaker 2: the word apocalypse, it actually comes from the Greek word apocalypsis, 204 00:10:40,716 --> 00:10:44,436 Speaker 2: and that means revelation. While change can up end things, 205 00:10:44,676 --> 00:10:47,516 Speaker 2: it can also reveal things to us about who we are. 206 00:10:48,356 --> 00:10:53,036 Speaker 2: And so what I've realized in having hundreds of conversations 207 00:10:53,036 --> 00:10:56,276 Speaker 2: over the years with people on a slight change of 208 00:10:56,316 --> 00:10:58,756 Speaker 2: plans and then interviewing them for my book is that 209 00:10:59,396 --> 00:11:02,676 Speaker 2: by and large, while people might not have been necessarily 210 00:11:02,716 --> 00:11:06,396 Speaker 2: grateful for the change itself, they were deeply grateful for 211 00:11:06,436 --> 00:11:08,356 Speaker 2: the person they became as a result. 212 00:11:08,356 --> 00:11:09,876 Speaker 5: Of their change. 213 00:11:09,956 --> 00:11:12,596 Speaker 2: And that's because when we are in these pressured moments, 214 00:11:12,756 --> 00:11:16,036 Speaker 2: when we realize, for example, that we have a new 215 00:11:16,076 --> 00:11:17,756 Speaker 2: set of skills that we're going to need to build 216 00:11:17,796 --> 00:11:22,316 Speaker 2: to meet this moment, we can actually shape the person 217 00:11:22,356 --> 00:11:25,436 Speaker 2: that we become. I think it's really empowering to remember 218 00:11:25,516 --> 00:11:27,676 Speaker 2: that we can become different people on the other side 219 00:11:27,676 --> 00:11:32,076 Speaker 2: of change, Because when we feel so overwhelmed at the 220 00:11:32,116 --> 00:11:34,876 Speaker 2: outset of a change, like there is no chance that 221 00:11:34,916 --> 00:11:38,396 Speaker 2: I maya will be able to navigate this with any 222 00:11:38,516 --> 00:11:41,876 Speaker 2: kind of ease, It will probably destroy me. There is 223 00:11:41,956 --> 00:11:45,316 Speaker 2: some comfort in knowing that the person who will undergo 224 00:11:45,516 --> 00:11:48,356 Speaker 2: that full experience will be different from the person I 225 00:11:48,396 --> 00:11:51,836 Speaker 2: am right now. And so the relevant question to ask 226 00:11:51,876 --> 00:11:54,756 Speaker 2: in the face of change isn't how the hell am 227 00:11:54,796 --> 00:11:58,276 Speaker 2: I going to navigate this change, but rather how will I, 228 00:11:58,716 --> 00:12:03,996 Speaker 2: with potentially new capabilities and perspectives and values navigate this change? 229 00:12:04,596 --> 00:12:07,476 Speaker 1: So, if unexpected change can reshape who we become, is 230 00:12:07,516 --> 00:12:10,236 Speaker 1: there a way to help guide that processes? After the 231 00:12:10,236 --> 00:12:12,916 Speaker 1: break Maya will walk us through specific tools that can 232 00:12:12,956 --> 00:12:15,876 Speaker 1: help us navigate these shifts in healthier ways, so the 233 00:12:15,956 --> 00:12:19,876 Speaker 1: unexpected changes become opportunities for growth rather than leaving us stuck. 234 00:12:20,276 --> 00:12:30,836 Speaker 1: The Happiness Lab will be back in a moment. Cognitive 235 00:12:30,836 --> 00:12:33,876 Speaker 1: scientist Maya Shunker has dedicated her life to helping people 236 00:12:33,916 --> 00:12:36,996 Speaker 1: get unstuck by embracing change. But when you're dealing with 237 00:12:37,036 --> 00:12:39,516 Speaker 1: a not so great major life change, the idea of 238 00:12:39,556 --> 00:12:43,036 Speaker 1: embracing it can feel overwhelming. So I asked Maya to 239 00:12:43,076 --> 00:12:46,676 Speaker 1: walk us through some practical techniques strategies that she's used 240 00:12:46,676 --> 00:12:49,756 Speaker 1: herself to move through life's big moments, and one of 241 00:12:49,796 --> 00:12:53,636 Speaker 1: Maya's favorite tips is what's known as a self affirmation exercise. 242 00:12:54,116 --> 00:12:59,436 Speaker 2: A self affirmation exercise involves actively shifting your mental spotlight 243 00:12:59,556 --> 00:13:03,316 Speaker 2: towards aspects of yourself that you really value, but that 244 00:13:03,396 --> 00:13:07,076 Speaker 2: importantly are not threatened by the change you're going through. So, 245 00:13:07,196 --> 00:13:11,076 Speaker 2: for example, if you are struggling with a challenging moment 246 00:13:11,076 --> 00:13:15,116 Speaker 2: in your relationship, you might use the affirmation exercise to 247 00:13:15,156 --> 00:13:18,396 Speaker 2: remind yourself that you really value the community you have 248 00:13:18,476 --> 00:13:22,916 Speaker 2: at work, or your spiritual life, or your ability to 249 00:13:22,996 --> 00:13:25,796 Speaker 2: play pickleball or whatever it is, the things that really 250 00:13:25,916 --> 00:13:30,036 Speaker 2: make you whole. And an added bonus of doing self 251 00:13:30,036 --> 00:13:32,556 Speaker 2: affirmation in addition to helping you zoom out and see 252 00:13:32,596 --> 00:13:36,556 Speaker 2: your life through a bigger picture lens is that it 253 00:13:36,596 --> 00:13:39,956 Speaker 2: can also make you less susceptible to denial, because it 254 00:13:39,996 --> 00:13:43,916 Speaker 2: reminds you that your identity does not hinge entirely on 255 00:13:43,996 --> 00:13:46,716 Speaker 2: what has been threatened by the change, and in doing so, 256 00:13:46,756 --> 00:13:49,556 Speaker 2: it reduces the intensity of the threat. And so if 257 00:13:49,556 --> 00:13:54,316 Speaker 2: I'm facing a really unexpected, really destabilizing change, reminding myself 258 00:13:54,356 --> 00:13:56,836 Speaker 2: of all the other things that constitute my identity can 259 00:13:56,876 --> 00:13:58,836 Speaker 2: be really grounding and affirming. 260 00:13:58,716 --> 00:14:00,316 Speaker 4: And knowing you well, I know that this is something 261 00:14:00,356 --> 00:14:02,596 Speaker 4: you've used recently in your own life, But can you 262 00:14:02,636 --> 00:14:04,516 Speaker 4: share this last story of when you had to use 263 00:14:04,516 --> 00:14:07,036 Speaker 4: self affirmation to get through a big time a feelate stuck. 264 00:14:08,196 --> 00:14:10,356 Speaker 2: Yeah, there was a a really big moment a couple 265 00:14:10,396 --> 00:14:12,996 Speaker 2: of years ago. At that point, my husband and I 266 00:14:13,196 --> 00:14:16,356 Speaker 2: had been trying to start a family for years. It 267 00:14:16,396 --> 00:14:20,596 Speaker 2: had been a really arduous journey, filled with many heartbreaks 268 00:14:20,636 --> 00:14:25,636 Speaker 2: and disappointments, and I remember on the night of the 269 00:14:25,876 --> 00:14:29,996 Speaker 2: second pregnancy loss with our surrogate, my husband, Jimmy, came 270 00:14:30,036 --> 00:14:33,596 Speaker 2: into our bedroom and said he actually unknowingly engaged me 271 00:14:33,876 --> 00:14:37,236 Speaker 2: in this self affirmation exercise, Laurie. He's a software engineer, 272 00:14:37,276 --> 00:14:39,036 Speaker 2: so he didn't even know that this is what was happening. 273 00:14:39,036 --> 00:14:41,476 Speaker 2: But he said, let's just name a couple things that 274 00:14:41,516 --> 00:14:46,356 Speaker 2: were really grateful for And in that moment, I was like, Oh, 275 00:14:46,396 --> 00:14:50,556 Speaker 2: hell Na, you take your Instagram vs and go over 276 00:14:50,556 --> 00:14:52,796 Speaker 2: to the corner and you do your positive thing. I'm 277 00:14:52,836 --> 00:14:55,396 Speaker 2: staying under the sheets where I'm going to be miserable 278 00:14:55,876 --> 00:14:58,876 Speaker 2: and feel self pity and just like bad for myself. 279 00:14:59,556 --> 00:15:02,276 Speaker 2: But with some time, Jimmy kind of wore me down 280 00:15:03,036 --> 00:15:05,876 Speaker 2: and I started to kind of rattle off a couple things. Oh, 281 00:15:05,916 --> 00:15:07,836 Speaker 2: I'm really grateful that, you know, I've had the same 282 00:15:07,836 --> 00:15:10,036 Speaker 2: colleagues for like ten plus ye years and we make 283 00:15:10,076 --> 00:15:12,516 Speaker 2: each other laugh all the time. Or how lucky am 284 00:15:12,516 --> 00:15:14,076 Speaker 2: I that I get to be an aunt to my 285 00:15:14,676 --> 00:15:17,676 Speaker 2: six nieces and nephews. Or I just love my zoom 286 00:15:17,676 --> 00:15:19,836 Speaker 2: workouts with my trainer and we get to gossip about 287 00:15:19,836 --> 00:15:22,676 Speaker 2: the Bachelor and love is Blind. And it was incredible 288 00:15:22,676 --> 00:15:25,996 Speaker 2: because I felt Larri like magic happened at that moment. 289 00:15:26,196 --> 00:15:31,276 Speaker 2: All of a sudden, I was able to zoom out 290 00:15:31,316 --> 00:15:34,156 Speaker 2: on my life as a whole and see that there 291 00:15:34,196 --> 00:15:39,636 Speaker 2: were so many other rich identities that I found meaning 292 00:15:39,716 --> 00:15:42,636 Speaker 2: in and that I valued, and that made me me 293 00:15:43,356 --> 00:15:45,596 Speaker 2: and I think sometimes what can happen when we're chasing 294 00:15:45,636 --> 00:15:49,516 Speaker 2: after a goal is that we develop tunnel vision. We 295 00:15:49,636 --> 00:15:53,956 Speaker 2: become so singularly focused on achieving that goal that I 296 00:15:54,196 --> 00:15:58,316 Speaker 2: had lost perspective on my life as a whole. And 297 00:15:58,756 --> 00:16:01,796 Speaker 2: in engaging in the self affirmation exercise, I felt so 298 00:16:01,916 --> 00:16:05,116 Speaker 2: much more grounded by the end, and I remember thinking, oh, wait, 299 00:16:05,196 --> 00:16:07,596 Speaker 2: even though it feels like in this moment, I've lost 300 00:16:07,676 --> 00:16:11,356 Speaker 2: everything because I lost this identity I'd been aspiring for 301 00:16:11,516 --> 00:16:13,356 Speaker 2: since I was a little kid right one day becoming 302 00:16:13,356 --> 00:16:17,156 Speaker 2: a mom, I actually haven't lost everything. So much of 303 00:16:17,196 --> 00:16:18,076 Speaker 2: me still remains. 304 00:16:18,636 --> 00:16:20,916 Speaker 4: This is such an important technique, and it fits with 305 00:16:20,956 --> 00:16:23,556 Speaker 4: other techniques that really allow us to get unstuck by 306 00:16:23,556 --> 00:16:26,916 Speaker 4: thinking about different possibilities for ourselves. Another one that you 307 00:16:26,956 --> 00:16:29,596 Speaker 4: talk about in the book is this technique of really 308 00:16:29,636 --> 00:16:33,116 Speaker 4: thinking explicitly about our possible selves and questioning the beliefs 309 00:16:33,116 --> 00:16:35,316 Speaker 4: we have about them. Explain how this works. 310 00:16:36,076 --> 00:16:39,036 Speaker 2: Yeah, So as we go about our lives, we conjure 311 00:16:39,116 --> 00:16:41,556 Speaker 2: up these possible selves all the time. They come in 312 00:16:41,596 --> 00:16:45,356 Speaker 2: different forms. So there's the hope for selves which reflect 313 00:16:45,396 --> 00:16:47,356 Speaker 2: all of our dreams and our goals. And you know, 314 00:16:47,436 --> 00:16:48,716 Speaker 2: I hope one day, I can do this, and I 315 00:16:48,716 --> 00:16:53,596 Speaker 2: imagine Maya in the future doing XYZ. There's also feared selves. 316 00:16:53,876 --> 00:16:59,036 Speaker 2: So feared selves reflect our worries and our anxieties, and 317 00:16:59,516 --> 00:17:04,276 Speaker 2: expected selves represent our predictions of what we think is 318 00:17:04,356 --> 00:17:07,156 Speaker 2: most likely to happen. So yes, I may have dreams 319 00:17:07,196 --> 00:17:10,036 Speaker 2: of becoming Taylor Swift, never going to happen, and so 320 00:17:10,196 --> 00:17:12,716 Speaker 2: expectedselves are what is actually likely to happen, which is 321 00:17:12,716 --> 00:17:15,236 Speaker 2: I will be a cognitive scientist in five to ten 322 00:17:15,316 --> 00:17:17,756 Speaker 2: years and hopefully hosting my podcast. 323 00:17:17,836 --> 00:17:17,996 Speaker 3: Right. 324 00:17:18,476 --> 00:17:22,236 Speaker 2: So, what's interesting about change is that when we navigate 325 00:17:22,276 --> 00:17:26,676 Speaker 2: a change, our possible selves can shift dramatically in response 326 00:17:26,716 --> 00:17:30,836 Speaker 2: to our new circumstances. So let's say we're facing an illness, 327 00:17:31,036 --> 00:17:33,076 Speaker 2: or the end of a relationship or the loss of 328 00:17:33,076 --> 00:17:35,956 Speaker 2: a job. We now feel all these doors closing, and 329 00:17:35,996 --> 00:17:39,276 Speaker 2: our life feels so constrained and small. But what I 330 00:17:39,396 --> 00:17:42,076 Speaker 2: learn from writing the other side of change is that 331 00:17:42,316 --> 00:17:47,716 Speaker 2: sometimes our minds constrain us beyond what is necessary, beyond 332 00:17:47,716 --> 00:17:50,676 Speaker 2: what's reasonable. And that's because we bring all of the 333 00:17:50,756 --> 00:17:54,876 Speaker 2: stereotypes we have, and all of our prior experiences and 334 00:17:55,476 --> 00:17:59,996 Speaker 2: influences from society into those possible cells. We generate and 335 00:18:00,636 --> 00:18:03,516 Speaker 2: those assumptions make us think that certain selves are no 336 00:18:03,556 --> 00:18:05,636 Speaker 2: longer available to us what actually they might be. 337 00:18:05,636 --> 00:18:08,436 Speaker 4: Which seems so interesting because it seems like the possible 338 00:18:08,476 --> 00:18:12,116 Speaker 4: selves we get have is just limited by our current circumstances. 339 00:18:12,156 --> 00:18:13,636 Speaker 4: But if we can kind of think a little bit 340 00:18:13,636 --> 00:18:15,756 Speaker 4: more broadly, we might be able to come up with ideas. 341 00:18:16,076 --> 00:18:18,276 Speaker 4: And of course that's a really helpful way to get unstuck, 342 00:18:18,316 --> 00:18:20,396 Speaker 4: because if you have a belief that, like, well, my 343 00:18:20,476 --> 00:18:22,476 Speaker 4: possible self could be like this, then you might be 344 00:18:22,516 --> 00:18:25,116 Speaker 4: able to get a little bit motivated to change these 345 00:18:25,116 --> 00:18:26,276 Speaker 4: things around to fix it. 346 00:18:26,636 --> 00:18:30,236 Speaker 2: Yes, this was actually my favorite chapter to write because 347 00:18:30,316 --> 00:18:33,516 Speaker 2: I think cracking open our imagination to conjure up new 348 00:18:33,556 --> 00:18:37,996 Speaker 2: possible selves is one of the most exciting, invigorating exercises 349 00:18:37,996 --> 00:18:38,556 Speaker 2: that we can do. 350 00:18:38,956 --> 00:18:40,596 Speaker 4: Okay, but then how do we do that? What are 351 00:18:40,676 --> 00:18:42,596 Speaker 4: some techniques for finding more possible selves? 352 00:18:42,716 --> 00:18:42,956 Speaker 3: Yes? 353 00:18:43,036 --> 00:18:47,196 Speaker 2: Okay, So the first is to experience what psychologists call 354 00:18:47,796 --> 00:18:52,556 Speaker 2: moral elevation. So moral elevation is that warm, fuzzy feeling 355 00:18:52,596 --> 00:18:55,076 Speaker 2: that we often experience in our chests when we witness 356 00:18:55,516 --> 00:19:00,276 Speaker 2: someone else's extraordinary actions, and those can be any wonderful 357 00:19:00,276 --> 00:19:03,076 Speaker 2: things we witness, so it can be their kindness, their resilience, 358 00:19:03,116 --> 00:19:06,436 Speaker 2: their self sacrifice, their courage, their ability to forgive. 359 00:19:06,836 --> 00:19:07,476 Speaker 5: You name it. 360 00:19:07,996 --> 00:19:09,996 Speaker 2: If you're impressed by it, and it fills you with 361 00:19:10,036 --> 00:19:12,516 Speaker 2: the feeling of awe and wonder that humans are capable of. 362 00:19:12,556 --> 00:19:14,436 Speaker 2: That thing that counts as moral elevation. 363 00:19:15,076 --> 00:19:15,756 Speaker 5: But what's really. 364 00:19:15,636 --> 00:19:18,436 Speaker 2: Important to note is that when we experience moral elevation, 365 00:19:19,236 --> 00:19:22,556 Speaker 2: we are not simply feeling good. It's not just a 366 00:19:22,596 --> 00:19:25,516 Speaker 2: bump in our joy or happiness in that moment. It 367 00:19:25,636 --> 00:19:30,316 Speaker 2: actually changes our brains. And that's because when a person's 368 00:19:30,356 --> 00:19:34,516 Speaker 2: extraordinary actions challenge our understanding of the world and what 369 00:19:34,636 --> 00:19:36,876 Speaker 2: humans are capable of, and we have to assimilate that 370 00:19:36,916 --> 00:19:40,556 Speaker 2: new information into our brains, it actually cracks open our 371 00:19:40,596 --> 00:19:44,356 Speaker 2: imagination of who we can be. So in my book, 372 00:19:44,396 --> 00:19:47,356 Speaker 2: I write about a young man who was sentenced to 373 00:19:47,716 --> 00:19:50,676 Speaker 2: nine years in adult prison as a sixteen year old 374 00:19:50,756 --> 00:19:54,196 Speaker 2: for committing a carjacking, and as you can imagine, the 375 00:19:54,356 --> 00:19:57,916 Speaker 2: vast majority of his positive possible selves disappeared from view. 376 00:19:58,476 --> 00:20:02,236 Speaker 2: And this guy, Dwayne, talks about how he was so 377 00:20:02,436 --> 00:20:06,156 Speaker 2: fearful of who he might become within the confines of prison, 378 00:20:06,876 --> 00:20:09,476 Speaker 2: and then one day, about a year in two a setons. 379 00:20:09,476 --> 00:20:13,356 Speaker 2: He has an experience of moral elevation with another prisoner. 380 00:20:13,476 --> 00:20:17,956 Speaker 2: So this other prisoner he holds himself in a certain way. 381 00:20:18,356 --> 00:20:20,956 Speaker 2: He cares for the younger prisoners. He teaches them how 382 00:20:20,956 --> 00:20:24,196 Speaker 2: to box and how to protect themselves against violence. He 383 00:20:24,196 --> 00:20:25,996 Speaker 2: would do two hundred and fifty push ups before the 384 00:20:25,996 --> 00:20:28,716 Speaker 2: guards even came in the morning, just to show people like, no, 385 00:20:28,876 --> 00:20:32,556 Speaker 2: this is my identity. And it was through that experience 386 00:20:32,556 --> 00:20:36,556 Speaker 2: and moral elevation that when Dwayne later encountered a book 387 00:20:36,556 --> 00:20:41,396 Speaker 2: of poetry that spoke to the experience of young boys 388 00:20:41,436 --> 00:20:44,836 Speaker 2: in prison, he thought, oh my gosh, maybe I can 389 00:20:44,876 --> 00:20:47,836 Speaker 2: be a poet. Maybe that sort of future self is 390 00:20:47,876 --> 00:20:53,036 Speaker 2: available to me. And fast forward today, Dwayne is a 391 00:20:53,116 --> 00:20:57,196 Speaker 2: MacArthur Genius Prize winning poet. He's a Yeo Law school graduate, 392 00:20:57,556 --> 00:21:00,596 Speaker 2: and he writes the most beautiful, poignant poetry about his 393 00:21:00,716 --> 00:21:03,916 Speaker 2: experiences in prison. And in the same way that that 394 00:21:04,156 --> 00:21:06,756 Speaker 2: man he met in prison cared for the younger prisoners, 395 00:21:07,116 --> 00:21:09,756 Speaker 2: he now uses his voice to represent and then the 396 00:21:09,836 --> 00:21:12,916 Speaker 2: stories of people in prison who might not otherwise have 397 00:21:12,956 --> 00:21:13,636 Speaker 2: a voice. 398 00:21:14,076 --> 00:21:16,476 Speaker 4: History also shows a second technique we can use to 399 00:21:16,516 --> 00:21:19,196 Speaker 4: figure out more possible selves, which is just to surround 400 00:21:19,196 --> 00:21:22,036 Speaker 4: ourselves with new ideas. It strikes me that what Dwayne 401 00:21:22,076 --> 00:21:24,876 Speaker 4: was doing was also surrounding himself with ideas of what 402 00:21:24,916 --> 00:21:26,996 Speaker 4: people could do. I love that you included the story 403 00:21:26,996 --> 00:21:29,436 Speaker 4: in your book because it reminds me of what you 404 00:21:29,476 --> 00:21:31,756 Speaker 4: did after your violin incident. You know, you were this 405 00:21:31,796 --> 00:21:33,996 Speaker 4: fifteen year old who found out you couldn't be a violinist, 406 00:21:34,076 --> 00:21:36,236 Speaker 4: and you were searching for your next step. You were 407 00:21:36,236 --> 00:21:37,956 Speaker 4: trying to figure out your new possible self. 408 00:21:37,996 --> 00:21:40,396 Speaker 2: It's really interesting, too, Laurie, because I think when I 409 00:21:40,396 --> 00:21:42,356 Speaker 2: had the experience of losing the violin and it was 410 00:21:42,876 --> 00:21:44,716 Speaker 2: sort of cemented that I was not going to be 411 00:21:44,716 --> 00:21:47,916 Speaker 2: a violinist the summer before college. So I was really disoriented, 412 00:21:47,956 --> 00:21:50,716 Speaker 2: and I also felt massive imposter syndrome, like, oh my god, 413 00:21:50,756 --> 00:21:52,916 Speaker 2: I feel like I only got accepted to Yale because 414 00:21:52,916 --> 00:21:54,596 Speaker 2: of the violin, and now I don't even have that. 415 00:21:54,836 --> 00:21:56,236 Speaker 2: I'm not going to fit in and I'm not going 416 00:21:56,276 --> 00:21:59,916 Speaker 2: to survive. My dad gave me some really helpful advice, 417 00:21:59,996 --> 00:22:04,796 Speaker 2: which was to one look around and absorb as much 418 00:22:04,836 --> 00:22:06,636 Speaker 2: new information as I could. He was like, you've been 419 00:22:06,636 --> 00:22:11,356 Speaker 2: wearing blinders for the last ten years. Watch documentaries, read articles, 420 00:22:11,796 --> 00:22:14,516 Speaker 2: have as many conversations as you can, and just open 421 00:22:14,596 --> 00:22:17,076 Speaker 2: up your mind to the world of possibility out there. 422 00:22:17,516 --> 00:22:20,516 Speaker 2: And it was during that exploratory period that I came 423 00:22:20,556 --> 00:22:23,716 Speaker 2: across my first book about the mind. It was The 424 00:22:23,796 --> 00:22:27,236 Speaker 2: Language Instinct by Stephen Pinker. And as soon as I 425 00:22:27,276 --> 00:22:29,836 Speaker 2: read that book, I went to my college course catalog 426 00:22:30,356 --> 00:22:33,156 Speaker 2: and I looked up what options existed, and that's when 427 00:22:33,156 --> 00:22:35,596 Speaker 2: I first saw, oh my god, there's a cognitive science major. 428 00:22:35,996 --> 00:22:38,956 Speaker 2: And so that's how cognitive scientists maya came to be. 429 00:22:39,556 --> 00:22:41,956 Speaker 2: And another thing that was helpful for me in that 430 00:22:41,996 --> 00:22:45,436 Speaker 2: moment was to remember just because I lost the violin 431 00:22:45,556 --> 00:22:48,796 Speaker 2: didn't mean that I lost all of the skills that 432 00:22:48,836 --> 00:22:50,916 Speaker 2: I built as a result of being a violinist. So 433 00:22:51,596 --> 00:22:54,556 Speaker 2: being able to play chords not useful in other domains. 434 00:22:54,596 --> 00:22:57,956 Speaker 2: But I had actually built a lot of grit. As 435 00:22:57,996 --> 00:23:01,036 Speaker 2: you can imagine, I had built a very high tolerance 436 00:23:01,036 --> 00:23:04,276 Speaker 2: for failure and for critical feedback. I had also cultivated 437 00:23:04,316 --> 00:23:07,076 Speaker 2: a love of learning and really enjoying seeing myself get 438 00:23:07,116 --> 00:23:10,516 Speaker 2: better at something, and all those skills were still going 439 00:23:10,556 --> 00:23:13,636 Speaker 2: to be super relevant in whatever I chose to do 440 00:23:13,716 --> 00:23:17,036 Speaker 2: moving forward. So the right question to ask yourself at 441 00:23:17,076 --> 00:23:20,396 Speaker 2: these moments of transition, is who else can this person be? 442 00:23:20,796 --> 00:23:23,676 Speaker 2: This person that's had all of these experiences and who's 443 00:23:23,676 --> 00:23:26,476 Speaker 2: built all of these skills and as all of these abilities. 444 00:23:26,636 --> 00:23:29,876 Speaker 2: And I think that was helpful in kind of calming 445 00:23:29,876 --> 00:23:32,876 Speaker 2: me down during this transition. And then thankfully, this very 446 00:23:32,916 --> 00:23:36,196 Speaker 2: lovely professor Laurie Santos took me under her wing my 447 00:23:36,276 --> 00:23:38,716 Speaker 2: freshman year and then allowed me to actually become a 448 00:23:38,716 --> 00:23:39,756 Speaker 2: cognitive scientist. 449 00:23:40,156 --> 00:23:42,116 Speaker 4: I love the story because basically what your dad was 450 00:23:42,156 --> 00:23:45,036 Speaker 4: doing was he was giving you an opportunity to challenge 451 00:23:45,036 --> 00:23:47,276 Speaker 4: the beliefs that you had about yourself. Like you were 452 00:23:47,316 --> 00:23:50,196 Speaker 4: just thinking of yourself as violinist and that's it. But 453 00:23:50,276 --> 00:23:52,596 Speaker 4: he was saying, Maya, if you watch some documentaries and 454 00:23:52,636 --> 00:23:54,196 Speaker 4: you read some books, you're going to learn that you 455 00:23:54,196 --> 00:23:56,636 Speaker 4: have lots of these different parts. There's lots of parts 456 00:23:56,636 --> 00:23:59,116 Speaker 4: of you that you're not paying attention to exactly. 457 00:23:59,156 --> 00:24:02,796 Speaker 2: So another strategy you can use is to define yourself 458 00:24:02,836 --> 00:24:05,156 Speaker 2: not just by what you do, but by why you 459 00:24:05,316 --> 00:24:09,836 Speaker 2: do it. That can be a more robust and stable 460 00:24:10,116 --> 00:24:12,876 Speaker 2: kind of self identity. So, in the context of the 461 00:24:12,956 --> 00:24:15,436 Speaker 2: violin I asked myself, well, what do I love about 462 00:24:15,436 --> 00:24:18,236 Speaker 2: the violin. Just because I lost the ability to play 463 00:24:18,276 --> 00:24:20,196 Speaker 2: it didn't mean that I lost what made me love 464 00:24:20,276 --> 00:24:24,756 Speaker 2: it in the first place. And those traits were really 465 00:24:24,836 --> 00:24:28,756 Speaker 2: enjoying emotionally connecting with people, and getting better at a craft. 466 00:24:29,316 --> 00:24:32,036 Speaker 2: And when you anchor your identity to those things. So 467 00:24:32,276 --> 00:24:35,636 Speaker 2: in other words, I'm a person who loves emotional connection 468 00:24:36,236 --> 00:24:40,956 Speaker 2: and loves self improvement, then the exercise simply becomes well 469 00:24:41,036 --> 00:24:45,236 Speaker 2: through what other outlets can I express these parts of myself? 470 00:24:45,796 --> 00:24:47,756 Speaker 2: And it turns out that I found other ways to 471 00:24:47,796 --> 00:24:50,956 Speaker 2: express them. So, for example, in my role as a 472 00:24:50,996 --> 00:24:53,316 Speaker 2: podcaster and in writing this book, I've been able to 473 00:24:53,316 --> 00:24:56,276 Speaker 2: build deep emotional connections with the people that I've interviewed. 474 00:24:56,876 --> 00:25:00,076 Speaker 2: I always am improving when it comes to being a 475 00:25:00,116 --> 00:25:03,756 Speaker 2: cognitive scientist, and so I would urge people listening to ask. 476 00:25:03,596 --> 00:25:05,876 Speaker 5: Themselves what is their why? 477 00:25:06,316 --> 00:25:09,996 Speaker 2: What lights them up about the things that they love, 478 00:25:10,716 --> 00:25:13,196 Speaker 2: and that can be a soft landing for them and 479 00:25:13,236 --> 00:25:15,756 Speaker 2: a compass as they try to figure out their next 480 00:25:15,796 --> 00:25:17,476 Speaker 2: steps in the face of the change. 481 00:25:18,276 --> 00:25:20,996 Speaker 1: So far, we've heard some great strategies for getting unstuck 482 00:25:21,036 --> 00:25:24,156 Speaker 1: by embracing new possible selves, But what about the tough 483 00:25:24,156 --> 00:25:27,196 Speaker 1: emotions that come up when we embrace those selves. After 484 00:25:27,236 --> 00:25:29,476 Speaker 1: the break, we'll chat about how to navigate all the 485 00:25:29,516 --> 00:25:32,836 Speaker 1: hard feelings that stem from big changes without the usual 486 00:25:32,956 --> 00:25:35,876 Speaker 1: beating the crap out of ourselves. The happiness lab will 487 00:25:35,916 --> 00:25:36,476 Speaker 1: be right back. 488 00:25:45,436 --> 00:25:47,676 Speaker 4: So we've been talking about how we can change our beliefs, 489 00:25:47,676 --> 00:25:49,476 Speaker 4: but I want to switch gears to another thing that 490 00:25:49,556 --> 00:25:52,796 Speaker 4: often happens when we are feeling really stuck, which is 491 00:25:52,796 --> 00:25:55,316 Speaker 4: that we tend to beat ourselves up a lot. 492 00:25:55,796 --> 00:25:57,876 Speaker 5: And I know that what are you talking about, Laurie, 493 00:25:57,876 --> 00:25:58,716 Speaker 5: I've never done that. 494 00:25:59,276 --> 00:26:00,796 Speaker 4: I was gonna say. I know you're now a fan 495 00:26:00,876 --> 00:26:02,516 Speaker 4: of change, but I seem to remember that used to 496 00:26:02,596 --> 00:26:03,356 Speaker 4: beat yourself up. 497 00:26:03,596 --> 00:26:06,316 Speaker 2: I used to, Oh my god, like self compassion is 498 00:26:06,356 --> 00:26:07,876 Speaker 2: something I'm very much still working on. 499 00:26:07,956 --> 00:26:10,596 Speaker 5: I am so self critical, oh my goodness. 500 00:26:10,996 --> 00:26:13,316 Speaker 4: And so let's talk about the strategies you zoos, because 501 00:26:13,316 --> 00:26:15,276 Speaker 4: I think this is a big one. People find themselves 502 00:26:15,276 --> 00:26:18,116 Speaker 4: feeling stuck, and it's not just the pain of feeling stuck, 503 00:26:18,116 --> 00:26:21,876 Speaker 4: it's also the sense that, like, I suck because I 504 00:26:21,916 --> 00:26:24,596 Speaker 4: am stuck. So how can we stop beating ourselves up 505 00:26:24,636 --> 00:26:25,076 Speaker 4: so much? 506 00:26:25,356 --> 00:26:28,596 Speaker 2: It's the perfect topic to address when it comes to 507 00:26:28,636 --> 00:26:32,876 Speaker 2: feeling stuck, because if you feel that you are unworthy 508 00:26:32,916 --> 00:26:36,396 Speaker 2: of compassion, if you feel you are truly irredeemable, that 509 00:26:36,556 --> 00:26:40,796 Speaker 2: is a permanent feeling of stuckness. One reason that change 510 00:26:40,836 --> 00:26:43,036 Speaker 2: can lead us to blame ourselves is because of what 511 00:26:43,036 --> 00:26:44,956 Speaker 2: we talked about earlier, which is we have a strong 512 00:26:44,996 --> 00:26:47,756 Speaker 2: illusion of control. And so when we think that we 513 00:26:47,836 --> 00:26:50,676 Speaker 2: are the ones dictating events and something goes really wrong, 514 00:26:51,116 --> 00:26:54,756 Speaker 2: who do we look to blame ourselves? What can happen, though, 515 00:26:54,876 --> 00:26:57,956 Speaker 2: is that we unfairly blame ourselves for things that we're 516 00:26:57,956 --> 00:27:00,636 Speaker 2: truly out of our control. Not everything happens for a reason. 517 00:27:01,156 --> 00:27:05,436 Speaker 2: Something's happen just because, But it is so easy still 518 00:27:05,716 --> 00:27:09,276 Speaker 2: to engage in a lot of self burration and self blame. 519 00:27:09,596 --> 00:27:11,236 Speaker 2: And so one thing that we can do in these 520 00:27:11,276 --> 00:27:13,996 Speaker 2: moments is to engage in a compassion exercise. So this 521 00:27:14,076 --> 00:27:18,836 Speaker 2: is phenomenal research by the psychologist Kristin Neth, and basically 522 00:27:19,196 --> 00:27:25,796 Speaker 2: she talks about self compassion as recognizing your suffering, mindfully 523 00:27:25,836 --> 00:27:28,796 Speaker 2: engaging with your emotions and understanding. And this is the 524 00:27:28,836 --> 00:27:32,036 Speaker 2: most important part. I think that what you're feeling is 525 00:27:32,116 --> 00:27:35,596 Speaker 2: part of a shared human experience. So when a big 526 00:27:35,676 --> 00:27:38,396 Speaker 2: change happens and we're blaming ourselves. We can often feel 527 00:27:38,396 --> 00:27:41,396 Speaker 2: exceptional in that moment, like, Oh, this sort of thing 528 00:27:41,436 --> 00:27:44,276 Speaker 2: only happens to me, and it's because I am bad, 529 00:27:44,596 --> 00:27:46,836 Speaker 2: and I just like will bad things to happen because 530 00:27:46,916 --> 00:27:49,556 Speaker 2: whatever I made a bad decision, or I don't trust 531 00:27:49,636 --> 00:27:52,236 Speaker 2: my instincts, or people don't like me enough. You know, 532 00:27:52,316 --> 00:27:54,396 Speaker 2: we can come up with all sorts of ideas about 533 00:27:54,396 --> 00:27:58,316 Speaker 2: ourselves in these moments of stress. But when you engage 534 00:27:58,316 --> 00:28:01,076 Speaker 2: in a self compassion exercise in which you remind yourself 535 00:28:01,156 --> 00:28:03,996 Speaker 2: that the thing that's happened to you is likely something 536 00:28:03,996 --> 00:28:06,316 Speaker 2: that's happened to a lot of other people, then you 537 00:28:06,356 --> 00:28:09,396 Speaker 2: can interpret the event as something that is happen been 538 00:28:09,676 --> 00:28:12,636 Speaker 2: to you as opposed to something that's happened because of you. 539 00:28:13,556 --> 00:28:18,036 Speaker 2: And there is really compelling research where people were instructed 540 00:28:18,076 --> 00:28:22,196 Speaker 2: to write to themselves with kindness and concern, to try 541 00:28:22,236 --> 00:28:24,596 Speaker 2: to write about their feelings in a really objective way, 542 00:28:25,076 --> 00:28:28,876 Speaker 2: and to importantly brainstorm all the ways in which other 543 00:28:28,996 --> 00:28:31,916 Speaker 2: people may have endured a very similar thing to the 544 00:28:31,916 --> 00:28:34,676 Speaker 2: thing you're enduring right now, and that led to a 545 00:28:34,796 --> 00:28:39,836 Speaker 2: significant reduction and shame and then kind of paradoxically, another 546 00:28:39,876 --> 00:28:43,436 Speaker 2: way to boost our self compassion is actually to look 547 00:28:43,476 --> 00:28:46,516 Speaker 2: outwards and help other people. And I just love this 548 00:28:46,596 --> 00:28:49,116 Speaker 2: insight because it's just like speaking to the better angels 549 00:28:49,116 --> 00:28:51,836 Speaker 2: of our nature, right, which is, Oh, I'm feeling a 550 00:28:51,836 --> 00:28:53,996 Speaker 2: lot of shame. I'm feeling a lot of self hatred. 551 00:28:54,356 --> 00:28:57,836 Speaker 2: But guess what when I volunteer, I can see up 552 00:28:57,876 --> 00:29:01,396 Speaker 2: close that I am capable of being valuable to other people. Right, 553 00:29:01,396 --> 00:29:03,796 Speaker 2: I'm able to see my mark on others, and that's 554 00:29:03,836 --> 00:29:06,236 Speaker 2: going to have this virtuous cycle when it comes to 555 00:29:06,236 --> 00:29:07,076 Speaker 2: my self concept. 556 00:29:07,436 --> 00:29:09,836 Speaker 4: It also makes you feel connected to other people too, right, 557 00:29:09,876 --> 00:29:11,916 Speaker 4: which is a huge thing for making us feel like 558 00:29:11,956 --> 00:29:13,796 Speaker 4: we are not alone, that we have the kind of 559 00:29:13,836 --> 00:29:16,196 Speaker 4: skills that we need to do better. Is just like 560 00:29:16,236 --> 00:29:19,876 Speaker 4: a superpower for making us feel better in these tough moments. Absolutely, 561 00:29:20,316 --> 00:29:22,596 Speaker 4: one of the things that happens when we feel stuck 562 00:29:22,716 --> 00:29:24,996 Speaker 4: is that we often get stuck in our thoughts. We 563 00:29:25,036 --> 00:29:28,316 Speaker 4: get stuck in this rumination cycle, both about our fears 564 00:29:28,356 --> 00:29:32,156 Speaker 4: of change and about the uncertainty. Like what's Maya's take 565 00:29:32,196 --> 00:29:33,636 Speaker 4: on rumination? What does it feel like? 566 00:29:33,756 --> 00:29:36,036 Speaker 2: Well, first of all, I should make very clear, I 567 00:29:36,076 --> 00:29:38,596 Speaker 2: feel like you think I have a PhD in cognitive science. 568 00:29:38,836 --> 00:29:41,476 Speaker 2: I feel like I have a PhD In ruminating because 569 00:29:41,636 --> 00:29:44,316 Speaker 2: I am the absolute worst call for it when it 570 00:29:44,316 --> 00:29:47,316 Speaker 2: comes to getting into these ruminative loops and just driving 571 00:29:47,316 --> 00:29:50,356 Speaker 2: myself crazy. And so I use techniques to help break 572 00:29:50,396 --> 00:29:53,516 Speaker 2: me from these mental spirals literally every single day. 573 00:29:53,876 --> 00:29:55,556 Speaker 4: So what are some of the techniques that you use? 574 00:29:56,316 --> 00:30:01,076 Speaker 2: The first one is on inspiring experiences. So when do 575 00:30:01,156 --> 00:30:03,556 Speaker 2: we feel awe? We feel awe when we are in 576 00:30:03,596 --> 00:30:07,316 Speaker 2: the presence of something that is vast and that transcends 577 00:30:07,596 --> 00:30:10,836 Speaker 2: our current understanding of the world. That vastness can be 578 00:30:11,116 --> 00:30:13,396 Speaker 2: physical or it can be conceptual, right, it can be 579 00:30:13,436 --> 00:30:17,116 Speaker 2: this like incredible skyscraper or the expanse of the night sky, 580 00:30:17,676 --> 00:30:19,956 Speaker 2: or it can be the complexity of a math theorem 581 00:30:20,196 --> 00:30:24,156 Speaker 2: or a piece of music. When we experience awe, it 582 00:30:24,196 --> 00:30:26,836 Speaker 2: creates these little earthquakes in our minds. It prompts us 583 00:30:26,836 --> 00:30:30,836 Speaker 2: to revise our existing assumptions about the world. And there 584 00:30:30,956 --> 00:30:36,356 Speaker 2: is neuroscience research showing that when we experience awe, the 585 00:30:36,436 --> 00:30:40,076 Speaker 2: regions in our brains that are associated with self focused 586 00:30:40,076 --> 00:30:43,836 Speaker 2: self immersion actually decrease. And so what that does is 587 00:30:44,036 --> 00:30:47,756 Speaker 2: it allows us to step outside of ourselves, to step 588 00:30:47,756 --> 00:30:51,516 Speaker 2: outside of our individual needs and wants and anxieties, and 589 00:30:51,556 --> 00:30:54,396 Speaker 2: to internalize that we are part of a larger whole, 590 00:30:54,636 --> 00:30:57,556 Speaker 2: that we are part of this big community of human beings, 591 00:30:58,076 --> 00:31:00,676 Speaker 2: and that we are not alone, and that our thoughts 592 00:31:00,676 --> 00:31:02,876 Speaker 2: are not exceptional in any way. And it gives us 593 00:31:02,916 --> 00:31:04,196 Speaker 2: some much needed perspective. 594 00:31:04,556 --> 00:31:06,196 Speaker 4: So how have you used AWE to break out of 595 00:31:06,276 --> 00:31:08,476 Speaker 4: rumination in your own life? I'm curious what's your go 596 00:31:08,516 --> 00:31:09,756 Speaker 4: to AH ex experiences. 597 00:31:10,076 --> 00:31:14,556 Speaker 2: I had a terrible experience with rumination in twenty twenty. 598 00:31:14,676 --> 00:31:16,596 Speaker 2: I mean, if we can go back to that period 599 00:31:16,636 --> 00:31:17,196 Speaker 2: of time. 600 00:31:17,156 --> 00:31:19,476 Speaker 4: That's some pretty brutal exactly. 601 00:31:20,036 --> 00:31:23,076 Speaker 2: But I developed insomnia for the first time in my life, 602 00:31:23,116 --> 00:31:25,676 Speaker 2: and it was something I was not familiar with. But 603 00:31:25,956 --> 00:31:29,556 Speaker 2: I very quickly, after a few sleep truly sleepless nights, 604 00:31:29,596 --> 00:31:33,356 Speaker 2: right like zero minutes of sleep, became obsessed with the 605 00:31:33,396 --> 00:31:36,476 Speaker 2: problem of sleep. I was wondering why I couldn't sleep. 606 00:31:36,516 --> 00:31:38,716 Speaker 2: I was wondering if I was ever going to sleep again. 607 00:31:39,196 --> 00:31:41,356 Speaker 2: It was the only thing that I thought or cared 608 00:31:41,356 --> 00:31:44,196 Speaker 2: about in my life. The whole world was shut down, 609 00:31:44,716 --> 00:31:47,516 Speaker 2: and I was out of my regular rhythms and whatnot. 610 00:31:47,516 --> 00:31:51,476 Speaker 2: And I walked to our downtown area and as I 611 00:31:51,556 --> 00:31:54,076 Speaker 2: walked downtown. I just put in my air pods and 612 00:31:54,156 --> 00:31:58,836 Speaker 2: I listened to one of my favorite violin pieces, and 613 00:31:59,196 --> 00:32:05,196 Speaker 2: I just remember being captivated by how beautiful the instrument 614 00:32:05,356 --> 00:32:08,396 Speaker 2: was and how beautiful the melodies were. And I felt 615 00:32:08,436 --> 00:32:11,636 Speaker 2: so sweat in that moment by the music and by 616 00:32:11,636 --> 00:32:13,996 Speaker 2: the way I experienced the same feeling with pop music, 617 00:32:14,116 --> 00:32:15,836 Speaker 2: and you know hip hop is I'm not just like 618 00:32:15,836 --> 00:32:16,836 Speaker 2: a classical music nerd. 619 00:32:16,876 --> 00:32:17,956 Speaker 5: I love all sorts of music. 620 00:32:18,996 --> 00:32:24,636 Speaker 2: In that moment when I felt this profound awe, it 621 00:32:24,716 --> 00:32:27,716 Speaker 2: was like there had been this high pressure balloon blowing 622 00:32:27,796 --> 00:32:30,196 Speaker 2: up in my head and someone just punctured it with 623 00:32:30,236 --> 00:32:34,916 Speaker 2: a needle. It just instantly deflated. And obviously it was 624 00:32:34,956 --> 00:32:38,156 Speaker 2: not a panacea for my insomnia. But what it did 625 00:32:38,556 --> 00:32:43,476 Speaker 2: was it gave me hope when I was feeling totally helpless, 626 00:32:43,836 --> 00:32:45,276 Speaker 2: like there was going to be no light at the 627 00:32:45,356 --> 00:32:48,596 Speaker 2: end of the tunnel. And that's what a small moment 628 00:32:48,636 --> 00:32:50,916 Speaker 2: of aw can do for you. And so I felt 629 00:32:50,916 --> 00:32:53,436 Speaker 2: something other than immense fury at my brain for the 630 00:32:53,476 --> 00:32:56,196 Speaker 2: first time in weeks. And so, yeah, that's one of 631 00:32:56,236 --> 00:32:58,636 Speaker 2: my favorite strategies because all is all around us, right, 632 00:32:58,676 --> 00:33:00,116 Speaker 2: it just requires a keen observer. 633 00:33:00,436 --> 00:33:03,636 Speaker 4: So that's using AWE to break out of rumination cycles. 634 00:33:03,676 --> 00:33:06,276 Speaker 4: Another strategy that you talk a lot about is getting 635 00:33:06,276 --> 00:33:09,116 Speaker 4: some distance from our emotions, even just through the simple 636 00:33:09,236 --> 00:33:12,716 Speaker 4: act of labeling them. What is affect labeling and why 637 00:33:12,756 --> 00:33:13,596 Speaker 4: is it so effective? 638 00:33:14,316 --> 00:33:17,796 Speaker 2: Yeah, So, affect labeling simply involves taking a step back 639 00:33:18,356 --> 00:33:23,556 Speaker 2: and trying to identify what specific negative emotions you're experiencing 640 00:33:23,636 --> 00:33:27,236 Speaker 2: as a result of your rumination. So, for example, in 641 00:33:27,276 --> 00:33:31,836 Speaker 2: my head, I'm thinking, right, all these like negative emotions 642 00:33:31,916 --> 00:33:33,796 Speaker 2: or like pin balls in your head, right, you can't 643 00:33:33,796 --> 00:33:36,116 Speaker 2: make sense of any of them. What you're doing when 644 00:33:36,156 --> 00:33:41,196 Speaker 2: you affect label is giving your negative feelings specific labels. 645 00:33:41,516 --> 00:33:44,036 Speaker 2: It's like, oh, that one that's frustration, Oh oh that 646 00:33:44,116 --> 00:33:47,076 Speaker 2: other one that's despair, Oh that's envy, that's jealousy, whatever 647 00:33:47,116 --> 00:33:51,236 Speaker 2: it is. And research shows that when you name your emotions, 648 00:33:51,836 --> 00:33:56,076 Speaker 2: it fosters psychological distance and it shifts your perspective away 649 00:33:56,236 --> 00:34:00,996 Speaker 2: from being the emotion to simply having the emotion. And 650 00:34:01,036 --> 00:34:04,476 Speaker 2: that is a seismic change, I feel in the way 651 00:34:04,476 --> 00:34:07,556 Speaker 2: that we experience rumination because when I am, you know, 652 00:34:07,836 --> 00:34:11,956 Speaker 2: mired in anxiety, I feel like I am anxious versus oh, 653 00:34:11,996 --> 00:34:15,356 Speaker 2: I'm having anxiety. Anxiety as an emotion simply that I'm feeling, 654 00:34:15,676 --> 00:34:17,436 Speaker 2: and so that's been very, very effective. 655 00:34:17,636 --> 00:34:19,916 Speaker 4: You've also talked about ways that we can distance ourselves, 656 00:34:19,956 --> 00:34:22,836 Speaker 4: not just from our emotions, but from our thoughts. Share 657 00:34:22,876 --> 00:34:25,716 Speaker 4: some strategies that we can use for thought self distancing. 658 00:34:26,236 --> 00:34:30,156 Speaker 2: My favorite and go to recently has been mental time travel. 659 00:34:30,396 --> 00:34:34,316 Speaker 2: So our brains have a remarkable ability to travel both 660 00:34:34,356 --> 00:34:37,276 Speaker 2: backwards and forwards in time, and we can use this 661 00:34:37,396 --> 00:34:40,516 Speaker 2: capability to our advantage in the context of ruminations. So 662 00:34:41,076 --> 00:34:44,796 Speaker 2: you can travel back in time to contextualize present day 663 00:34:44,876 --> 00:34:49,276 Speaker 2: challenges within the larger story of humanity or within your 664 00:34:49,276 --> 00:34:51,556 Speaker 2: own life story. Right, you might remind yourself of a 665 00:34:51,596 --> 00:34:55,076 Speaker 2: moment where you showed a lot of resolve in the 666 00:34:55,076 --> 00:34:57,836 Speaker 2: face of adversity, and that can encourage you in the present. 667 00:34:58,156 --> 00:35:01,116 Speaker 2: You can also travel to the future and imagine how 668 00:35:01,116 --> 00:35:04,956 Speaker 2: you're going to feel about your current problem in five 669 00:35:04,996 --> 00:35:08,356 Speaker 2: hours from now, five days from now, five years from now, 670 00:35:09,156 --> 00:35:12,636 Speaker 2: and I find that to be very useful. So, for example, 671 00:35:12,636 --> 00:35:15,596 Speaker 2: if you've had a negative experience with your coworker or 672 00:35:15,596 --> 00:35:18,196 Speaker 2: your boss and you just can't get it out of 673 00:35:18,196 --> 00:35:20,636 Speaker 2: your head, right, you are as Ethan Cross says on 674 00:35:20,756 --> 00:35:23,876 Speaker 2: the hamster wheel. Right, it's like running and running and running. 675 00:35:24,156 --> 00:35:26,596 Speaker 2: You can just take a step back and say, am 676 00:35:26,596 --> 00:35:28,756 Speaker 2: I going to care about this as much in five 677 00:35:28,836 --> 00:35:31,396 Speaker 2: years from now? And suddenly you think, oh my god, 678 00:35:31,636 --> 00:35:34,956 Speaker 2: this situation is transient. So it just like takes a 679 00:35:34,956 --> 00:35:38,036 Speaker 2: lot of the emotional energy out of the space you're 680 00:35:38,076 --> 00:35:40,036 Speaker 2: occupying and you can see it with a little bit 681 00:35:40,076 --> 00:35:43,396 Speaker 2: more perspective. Another thing that I do is just more 682 00:35:43,396 --> 00:35:46,556 Speaker 2: basic psychological distancing. So, as I mentioned to you, I'm 683 00:35:46,596 --> 00:35:49,316 Speaker 2: extremely self critical. So when I have messed up and 684 00:35:49,356 --> 00:35:51,356 Speaker 2: I may be ruminating because I have a lot of regret, 685 00:35:51,916 --> 00:35:54,556 Speaker 2: I'm not the kindest to myself. And so one way 686 00:35:54,556 --> 00:35:56,476 Speaker 2: you can be a little bit kinder to yourself is 687 00:35:56,516 --> 00:35:59,676 Speaker 2: to coach yourself like you would a friend. You're going 688 00:35:59,716 --> 00:36:01,636 Speaker 2: to give a lot more compassion to a friend when 689 00:36:01,676 --> 00:36:03,516 Speaker 2: you're advising them. You're also going to have a lot 690 00:36:03,556 --> 00:36:06,396 Speaker 2: more emotional distance when you're coaching someone, and you have 691 00:36:06,436 --> 00:36:09,316 Speaker 2: more of a third party, objective, observer point of you. 692 00:36:09,636 --> 00:36:12,636 Speaker 2: And so I try to remind myself, okay, you're talking 693 00:36:12,956 --> 00:36:16,276 Speaker 2: to someone else. Try to see your problem. 694 00:36:15,996 --> 00:36:16,716 Speaker 5: Through that lens. 695 00:36:16,956 --> 00:36:19,276 Speaker 4: So these are ways that we can separate ourselves from 696 00:36:19,316 --> 00:36:21,836 Speaker 4: our thoughts. You've also argued that we can fight rumination 697 00:36:21,956 --> 00:36:25,516 Speaker 4: by lessening our need for cognitive closure. How does that work? 698 00:36:26,636 --> 00:36:29,596 Speaker 2: Yeah, so this isn't a short term solution, because I 699 00:36:29,636 --> 00:36:31,516 Speaker 2: think this is sort of at least for me anyway. 700 00:36:32,036 --> 00:36:36,956 Speaker 2: It's my contending with a lifelong struggle that I will 701 00:36:36,996 --> 00:36:40,996 Speaker 2: never have clear, definitive answers for every challenge in my 702 00:36:41,076 --> 00:36:44,156 Speaker 2: life or every question I have in my life. But 703 00:36:44,436 --> 00:36:46,196 Speaker 2: I think a lot of us, as humans, we do 704 00:36:46,356 --> 00:36:49,876 Speaker 2: crave black and white clarity. And the challenge is that 705 00:36:49,956 --> 00:36:53,636 Speaker 2: when we climb out of the rubble of an unexpected 706 00:36:53,676 --> 00:36:57,476 Speaker 2: negative change, all we see around us is gray. It's 707 00:36:57,516 --> 00:37:00,916 Speaker 2: all gray. There's no black, there's no white. And I 708 00:37:00,956 --> 00:37:03,796 Speaker 2: do think that one of the long term ways for 709 00:37:03,916 --> 00:37:07,316 Speaker 2: us to tame our rumination is to start becoming more 710 00:37:07,316 --> 00:37:11,956 Speaker 2: comfortable with uncertainty. Rumination often arises in our effort to 711 00:37:12,076 --> 00:37:15,916 Speaker 2: resist the uncertainty that a change brings. We rehash why 712 00:37:16,436 --> 00:37:18,476 Speaker 2: that breakup happened in the way it did, and we 713 00:37:18,836 --> 00:37:20,716 Speaker 2: if only I'd done this, we would still be together. 714 00:37:20,756 --> 00:37:22,996 Speaker 2: If only I'd said that. If only you just keep 715 00:37:23,156 --> 00:37:25,236 Speaker 2: going over the same negative thoughts over and over again, 716 00:37:25,716 --> 00:37:28,676 Speaker 2: when you might not actually know for sure why a 717 00:37:28,716 --> 00:37:31,516 Speaker 2: breakup happened, and it's actually okay to not know all 718 00:37:31,556 --> 00:37:35,516 Speaker 2: the answers, And so I think building slowly but surely, 719 00:37:35,636 --> 00:37:39,476 Speaker 2: our tolerance of uncertainty, our desperate need to find answers 720 00:37:39,476 --> 00:37:42,356 Speaker 2: when there are none to be found, is honestly not 721 00:37:42,436 --> 00:37:44,676 Speaker 2: even in the context of ruination. But it's just a 722 00:37:44,716 --> 00:37:48,036 Speaker 2: healthier way to embrace change in our lives. 723 00:37:48,076 --> 00:37:50,436 Speaker 4: Overall, this was amazing. I feel like you just gave 724 00:37:50,556 --> 00:37:53,156 Speaker 4: our listeners so many strategies for getting in stuck. I 725 00:37:53,196 --> 00:37:54,996 Speaker 4: hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I'm 726 00:37:55,036 --> 00:37:56,876 Speaker 4: so glad you had that little pop in your hand 727 00:37:57,036 --> 00:37:59,156 Speaker 4: and that you get to God you're a science student 728 00:37:59,316 --> 00:38:01,076 Speaker 4: that you get to help so many of my listeners 729 00:38:01,196 --> 00:38:01,956 Speaker 4: become unstuck. 730 00:38:02,316 --> 00:38:03,876 Speaker 5: That's so sweet. Thank you. 731 00:38:04,036 --> 00:38:06,916 Speaker 4: I'm glad you had a career ending injury. It's really 732 00:38:06,916 --> 00:38:08,516 Speaker 4: worked out for me in a wonderful way. 733 00:38:09,556 --> 00:38:11,476 Speaker 5: Well, I'm grateful for you, Laurie, So thanks. 734 00:38:13,556 --> 00:38:16,596 Speaker 1: Unexpected changes can leave us feeling stuck, but there are 735 00:38:16,596 --> 00:38:20,076 Speaker 1: also opportunities. So the next time life throws you a curveball, 736 00:38:20,196 --> 00:38:22,756 Speaker 1: remember that change changes you. 737 00:38:22,756 --> 00:38:23,996 Speaker 4: You might not feel. 738 00:38:23,676 --> 00:38:26,516 Speaker 1: Ready to be changed, but the person you become probably 739 00:38:26,516 --> 00:38:29,276 Speaker 1: has the strength and wisdom to navigate your new situation 740 00:38:29,516 --> 00:38:31,756 Speaker 1: with confidence. And if you need help on the way 741 00:38:31,756 --> 00:38:34,396 Speaker 1: to becoming that new person, try some of the strategies 742 00:38:34,436 --> 00:38:37,276 Speaker 1: Maya talked about today. Take a moment to journal, to 743 00:38:37,356 --> 00:38:41,116 Speaker 1: engage in self affirmation and to explore possible selves. Do 744 00:38:41,236 --> 00:38:44,196 Speaker 1: something new that cultivates awe, Take a deep breath and 745 00:38:44,196 --> 00:38:47,516 Speaker 1: speak to yourself with self compassion, and if all else fails, 746 00:38:47,636 --> 00:38:50,236 Speaker 1: remind yourself that you're doing the great work of building 747 00:38:50,236 --> 00:38:53,556 Speaker 1: comfort with uncertainty. If you want even more tips for 748 00:38:53,596 --> 00:38:57,716 Speaker 1: getting unstuck from unexpected change, I highly recommend Maya's new book, 749 00:38:57,956 --> 00:39:00,876 Speaker 1: The Other Side of Change. It's out in stores this week. 750 00:39:01,956 --> 00:39:04,996 Speaker 1: Next week on the Happiness Lab, we'll continue exploring strategies 751 00:39:05,036 --> 00:39:08,316 Speaker 1: for getting unstuck. I'll chat with author and political commentator 752 00:39:08,436 --> 00:39:11,956 Speaker 1: David Brooks about how focusing on character and connection can 753 00:39:11,996 --> 00:39:14,916 Speaker 1: be an unexpected path to moving forward in the new year. 754 00:39:15,356 --> 00:39:18,116 Speaker 3: A lot of people have not been taught basic social 755 00:39:18,156 --> 00:39:20,716 Speaker 3: skills like how do you sit with someone who's depressed, 756 00:39:20,916 --> 00:39:23,236 Speaker 3: how do you break up with someone without crushing their heart? 757 00:39:23,556 --> 00:39:26,636 Speaker 3: How do you ask for an offer forgiveness? And that's 758 00:39:26,636 --> 00:39:28,596 Speaker 3: a skill just the way learning tennis is a skill 759 00:39:28,636 --> 00:39:30,156 Speaker 3: the way learning carpentry is a skill. 760 00:39:30,876 --> 00:39:33,516 Speaker 1: That's coming up next week on Happiness Lab with me 761 00:39:33,716 --> 00:39:34,916 Speaker 1: doctor Laurie Santos